Rod Liddle

The blurry line between Islam and Islamism

15 June 2013

9:00 AM

15 June 2013

9:00 AM

There’s an Islamic school in Birmingham which is very highly regarded. It’s called Darul Uloom — the same name as the school in Chislehurst which was recently the subject of an arson attack. In fact, that’s how I stumbled across it. Anyway, Darul Uloom in Birmingham is a good school not only academically, but also for the emphasis it puts upon neighbourliness, integration, and decent and friendly dealings with non-Muslims. In short it is a model school of its kind; it will surely not turn out furious jihadis, will it? The school encourages multi-faith dialogue, it urges upon its pupils the need to treat all members of the community with respect. Why does it do this? The school explains by means of a quotation on its website. It’s a story about Maalik Bin Dinaar, an early follower of Muhammad:

Once Maalik Bin Dinaar rented a room next to the home of a Jew. His room was adjacent to the entrance of the Jew’s home. The Jew spitefully always deposited garbage and filth in Maalik’s entrance. Even his musalla (prayer place) would at times be soiled. This treatment continued for a long period, but Maalik Bin Dinaar never complained.
One day the Jew came and said: ‘Does the garbage I deposit in front of your room not distress you?’
Maalik: ‘It does distress me, but I wash and clean the place.’
Jew: ‘Why do you tolerate so much distress?’
Maalik: ‘Allah has promised substantial reward for those who contain their anger and forgive people.’
Jew: ‘Truly, your Deen (religion) is beautiful. It commands toleration of even the hardships presented by enemies.’
The Jew was so affected by the beautiful conduct of Maalik Bin Dinaar that he embraced Islam.

So, there we are — even spiteful, filthy, enemy Jews can be redeemed.

We have attempted to placate ourselves, following the savage murder of Drummer Rigby, by deploying a dichotomy: Islam (and ordinary Muslims) versus this thing ‘Islamism’. Islam is a noble and peaceable faith which we must all respect, whereas Islamism is a corrosive  and aggressive political ideology, and the two — weirdly — have nothing to do with one another. This is a patent nonsense, a delusion, and while it may work as a form of crowd control, it will not help us win this battle. It is indisputable that the vast majority of British Muslims were as disgusted by the events in Woolwich as the rest of us were — although I suspect a markedly smaller proportion would have been properly disgusted in, say, Gaza or Isfahan or Riyadh or Karachi. That, however, is not the point. The problem is that so-called ‘Islamism’ is already half-formed within the tenets, the texts, the ideas of Islam; within the ideology of how it sees other people, those who are not Muslims, and what one should do with them.

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It is the dehumanising of others which is its most marked characteristic, even when the texts are trying to be, uh, kindly. Take the case of a familiar Muslim commentator, Mehdi Hasan. He is left-liberal, impeccably PC. He denounces violence committed in the name of Islam and he has — rather bravely — picked away at the latent (and not so latent) anti-Semitism within the Muslim world. He was recorded a few years back delivering a speech in which he referred to unbelievers — kuffars — as ‘unintelligent’ and ‘cattle’. He was quoting from the Koran. These comments caused a small storm of protest. It is true that the majority of his speech was an attack upon Muslim ‘extremism’, but nonetheless, ‘unintelligent’ and ‘like cattle’ is a verdict from which he did not dissent, even if he perhaps thinks that some of us are quite nice cattle. But it is not difficult to see how one progresses from a view that certain people — Christians, atheists, Jews — are subhuman to having rather less qualms about blowing them up or hacking them to death.

I do not understand why we are so desperate to exculpate an ideology which, at the very least, lends itself too easily to a messianic authoritarianism and viciousness. There may be much in Islam which is agreeable — a respect for the elderly, a commitment to charity, a certain high seriousness, self-discipline and so on — but many of its tenets are simply antithetical to much that we believe in and cherish.

Previously we attempted to circumvent criticising Islam by making another false dichotomy between ‘moderate’ and ‘extremist’. This didn’t work, either. You might remember the protests which occurred when the then mayor of London, Ken Livingstone, invited the Muslim cleric Yusuf al Qaradawi to address some ghastly conference in the city. This caused a furore: the man supports female circumcision, Hamas, death to apostates, suicide bombings and so on. Livingstone replied no, you’ve got him wrong, al Qaradawi is a moderate. So who was right? Both. He is regarded as a moderate within the Islamic world. He’s even said nice things, on occasion, about Jews. On the issue of women he is almost a liberationist — he believes they should be beaten, yes, but not with a stick. And he thinks it’s OK for them to become suicide bombers despite the fact that in order to blow people up they might need to remove their hijabs and thus be guilty of immodesty.

We make these distinctions to avoid giving offence and to urge quiescence upon the atheists and Christians and Jews — the cattle. But in the end it does not help us to do so: we are evading the point.

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Show comments
  • Jonathan Sidaway

    Thank you for this. The attitudes of Islam to the ‘modern world’ must be vigorously opposed at almost every point. We can see what those attitudes are in the person of the Turkish govt leader, with his breathtaking views of those who dare to drink and those who have an unaccountable distaste for living in a patriarchal early-medieval village. -Except, of course, he wants a shopping centre built on that park, courtesy of his Gulf-based supporters (when you live in a desert, shopping makes a change, I guess). So we see that the Islamic project is not so pure after all. What with Shia/Sunni enmity, these contradictions within the chilling edifice of Islam offer hope to the West.

    • crosscop

      From what I’ve read, Jonathon, the shopping centre would include a mosque and the whole thing would be built on the site of an already existing building in the park – a community centre named after Kemal Ataturk. The secularists know just what he’s up to. Islam has a long history of building triumphalist mosques on the site of their defeated enemies’ iconic buildings.

      • Jonathan Sidaway

        Thanks for this. Islam just as bleakly monochrome in its ‘integrity’ as I had feared!

      • Alexsandr

        the site is where the Taksim Military Barracks were. Seems to be relevant for the 31 march incident in 1909 -and guess what, the British were being perfidious in Turkey then. So the site has historical relevance. Think Ataturk is involved in this history somewhere. And Ataturk wanted a secular state.
        Perhaps someone knows better?

  • michael

    Christians and Jews are infidels, atheists are kuffar.

    • Icebow

      News to me. As I understand it kuffar means ‘infidels’. The only difference is that Jews and Christians have the option of paying the jizya, whereas for atheists and Pagans the choice is between conversion or death.

      • michael

        Perhaps I am not up to date with the current interpretations however I’m sure there is some difference, as Judaism Christianity and islam share the Old Testament … the same God.

        • Icebow

          The fundamentalists, i.e. the true Mohammedans, regard the Christian Trinity as polytheistic. I am no expert on the ‘Book’ religions, and I am unsure as to what they think of Jews on strictly theological grounds. But it is clear that they have a deep and abiding hatred of Jews, and that (as I have said elsewhere) a triumphant Mohammedanism would make the Nazis seem like ‘Islam-lite’. The way in which some Jews, including Rabbis and academics, have publicly turned traitor is quite amazing.

    • Fred Scuttle

      What about atheist Jews?

  • Keith D

    There is only Islam.There are good and bad muslims.According to the tenets of Islam,the good muslims are the ones who lie,rape and kill in its name.Sadly its taken a while for a lot of people to get it.Woolwich was the catalyst for that unless you’re a fool like Boris or Call Me Dave.

    • Icebow

      Charles Moore has a good article in this regard in the Telegraph this morning (Sat.), in which he says that many of us have not been shocked enough by the Woolwich atrocity.

      • Terry Field

        Sadly there will be many future opportunities for us to be shocked and horrified by the actions of these murderers. At some point, we will react – and the Home Office and the so-called ‘authorities’ will be powerless to intervene.
        The are pushing this situation to crisis point.

        • Icebow

          It does rather look that way.

        • Drakken

          Think Balkans on steroids, that is what is coming.

          • Charlie97

            The ethnic cleansing of Muslims? I fear that a lot of people on this board (including you) would enjoy such a scenario…

          • Drakken

            So you were on the front lines huh? I guess it was with your fellow jihadist, sorry I missed you.

          • Charlie97

            No I have never been on the front line. Whatever gave you that idea?

            You appear to want to put a bullet in the head of every single Muslim, as far as I can see.

          • FreyaB

            Which isn’t very far.

          • Charlie97

            Even if the majority are innocent of any crime?

          • Drakken

            Any way you look at it, it comes up playing a new game of cowboys and muslims.

          • Drakken

            If and when it comes down to it, I’ll love me and mine and eff them and theirs and I’ll make sure theirs perish in order for mine to survive, without question.

        • Charlie97

          Terry, I agree with you. (Disclaimer: I am a Muslim – apparently I should do this so people don’t think that I’m sowing seeds of discontent). More murderers will perpetrate criminal acts, and the rest of us will get tarred with the same brush.

          • Terry Field

            Thank you for your reply.

            One feels quite powerless.

            Millions of Moslems, Christians and others are suffering dreadfully in the Middle East and in western countries; from my perspective, the main causes appear to be the disturbance of the relationship between Sunni and Shia that had been settled, and had persisted for a thousand years, and the creation of proxy conflicts, now between Persia, Russia and the USA.

            In Britain my concern is that mutual fear drives all communities apart even more than the almost-ghetto arrangements we currently experience.

            I believe a part of the solution is the incorporation of all religions as all a part of the established state religious condition; the Moslem, the Jew, the Christan, by denomination, the Sikh, teh Hindu and others, should plainly observe that their religion is the religion of the State, and not just the Christian religion.
            And we should all throw our sociwties open to each other.
            The alternative is fear, the creation of myth, and continuous violent separation.
            I am Christian; I fear Islam.
            That is precisely why I wish to see integration – forced, coerced, however done.

            The only alternative is blood on the streets, with your people and our people(- a dreadful present reality) hating each other as we bury our to-be-murdered grandchildren.

            Peace to you; and to all of us.,

          • FreyaB

            Then what are you yourself doing to influence Muslim spokesmen, imams in mosques and others to ameliorate this? My difficulty is with the deafening silence from many people like you.

          • Charlie97

            These conversations do happen, regularly. I admit that minds have been ‘focussed’ somewhat, by events over the last few years, and these conversations do happen nowadays, whereas they did not 10 years ago. With regards your final sentence, I’m assuming that you do not find yourself in positions (i.e. in a mosque) where you might actually be privy to such conversations. When counter-attacks do occur, they are not widely reported, although I did find one example in the Daily Mail of all places (http://dailym.ai/13RlzV1). So it is not really surprising that you won’t hear about it. But these conversations do occur.

          • Drakken

            Your islam and the west are at complete odds with each other and diametrically opposite in values, ideals and governance. Multiculturalism and diversity are utter failures period. Islam and the west are in a collision course with each other as it has been for centuries. Your defense of your abomination of a devils religion says more about you than it does about us westerners, and make no mistake, we know who you side with and it isn’t us westerners and our western civilization.

          • Charlie97

            I’m certainly not with you, Darkken.

          • Drakken

            Then you are against us, so be it. Deo Volente.

          • Charlie97

            You have such an inflated opinion of yourself.

            I’m not with you. Just you Darkken. Not us. Just you…

          • Drakken

            You either get your Islamic house in order, or we will do it for you. It is that bloody simple.

    • Daniel Maris

      Boris isn’t a fool – he wrote that book 72 Virgins and his family have Turkish roots. He knows all about it. But he is first and foremost a politician, so he dissembles.

    • TonyBuck2

      Mohammed was a military commander – against enemy armies. The Koran forbids attacks on civilians (presumably including off-duty soldiers)

      • jjjj

        So the homicide bombers that kill babies, women and men are Jedi, is that it??

        • TonyBuck2

          They’re fake Moslems, just as the Spanish Inquisition were fake Christians.

          • Drakken

            Well gee golly, it look like there are millions of fake muslims then right?

          • FreyaB

            No they’re not. They are emulating the Muslim prophet as they are instructed and he got a kick out of beheading and murder.

      • Daniel Maris

        Well you obviously know your Koran…please cite the verse that forbids attacks on civlians.

      • crosscop

        Look, Tony – the “prophet” Mohammad sent his assassins to the house of Asma bint Marwan who had been urging people to oppose him. They crept into her house, removed the baby who was sleeping by her side and stabbed her to death. This is recorded in the Hadith. And she wasn’t the only “civilian” he had murdered, either – not by a long chalk. Please do some research.

        • FreyaB

          Is there an an account of what happened to the baby? I hope it fared better than the Fogel children in Itamar Three month old Hadass Fogel was beheaded. The accused grinned in court when found guilty.

      • Drakken

        So who are us infidels to believe? You? Or our lying infidel eyes? Islam is islam and no matter how much lipstick you put on the Islamic pig, it is still a pig.

      • Keith D

        Except the Koran defines innocents as good pious muslims.Everyone else is fair game,as the Jihadists are only too keen to demonstrate.

      • FreyaB

        Except if they are Israeli Arabs or Jews.

  • KO

    Another brave article from Rod going against the great PC orthodoxy, the not in front of the children, lets hide the truth with meaningless platitudes agenda of the mainstream media. He’s certainly putting his career on the line by pointing out truths ‘they’ don’t wish to acknowledge. How many commentators have gone under for saying less? It is one of the wonders of our age that so much illiberal intolerance is championed by so many liberally minded people. The same liberally minded people
    who will ostracise at the drop of a hat any of their own kind offering a dissenting view. What a lot of twisted knicker elastic our left liberal metropolitan chums have got themselves entangled in! Champions like Mehdi Hasan all over the BBC while those like Thatcher-the-younger (whatever you may think of her) banned for ever for pointing out a resemblance between the hair style of a tennis player and an early 20th century doll! Don’t underestimate the vitriolic response when the PC establishment is challenged!

    • KO

      P.S. Apropos the above: A very sound, and perhaps important, article in today’s Telegraph by Charles Moore (Saturday 15/6). Do I detect the wind of change here? First Rod and now Charles sticking their heads above the parapet.

      • eric67

        Don’t hold your breath. They are already burying the Drummer Rigby slaughter.

      • FreyaB

        In order to deal with the discord in our society caused by successive governments’ oversensitivity towards Muslim feelings (when Muslims feel free to insult the rest of us) it is necessary to be able the NAME what is going on, unequivocally. Once something is named it is “out there” and cannot be unnamed.

        • FreyaB

          But they cannot if people like us keep reminding others of it and why it happened and most importantly who perpetrated it in the name of a cult-like belief system which our politicians appear oblivious to unless they want its slaves to vote for them.

    • Daniel Maris

      Yep, this is the problem. Someone like Mehdi Hasan can get away with calling the rest of us ignorant cattle but we’re not allowed to criticise his religion in any MSM area.

      • TonyBuck2

        We’ve already criticised Islam simply by avoiding mosque attendance last Friday; and the Moslems aren’t under any illusions about this – in that sense, most Brits ARE ignorant cattle; godless, selfish, money-worshipping people without reproduction or a future.

        What do you propose instead of Islam ? Are you or your like-minded commentators prepared to suffer on behalf of this alternative ?

        • Fred Scuttle

          Godless is good. We are all godless.

          If only everyone realised that simple fact the world would be a better place.

        • Daniel Maris

          Did you sprinkle arrogance on your cornflakes this morning Tony?

        • jjjj

          Mehdi? Is that you Mehdi?

          • TonyBuck2

            Is it arrogant to point out the truth ?

        • FreyaB

          Why would we suffer or suffer from any alternative to Islam? And avoiding mosque attendance when compared with Islam’s behaviour around the world doesn’t even begin to address the problem. To avoid mosque attendance permanently might be a huge step in the right direction as would disagreeing publicly with the swivel-eyed lunatics who preach hatred.

      • FreyaB

        Now be fair, he did act as bag man for the faux apology by (ig)noble Lord Achmed for latter’s antisemitism and bleated about there being too much antisemitism in Islam, apparently forgetting his ‘kufr are cattle’ speech and doubtless hoping that his readers would too

  • anyfool

    Well Rod you have really burnt your boats if you ever wanted a return the BBC, criticizing their new best friends the Muslims, then you go and cap it by stiffing the new boy Hasan who they hope they can use as a supposed acceptable front for this pernicious political creed that masquerades as a religion.
    Can you fathom out what the BBC sees in a faith that mutilates its own young girls, treats all other young female children as sex slaves, treats western women as brood mares, “gives them paler skinned boys who they desire so much” and cash cows.
    Not forgetting Gays and Blacks who they despise and put to death and enslave, these were all groups who the BBC used to uphold and defend, why do you think they have throw all their principles down the toilet.

    • Paul Weston

      The whole BBC/Islam relationship is very odd. BBC types do not admire Nazi Party ideology, but they do admire Islam.

      I mention the Nazi party only to draw an ideological parallel with Islam. A messianic leader who cannot be criticised. Death to Jews and homosexuals. Women fit only for children, kitchen and place of worship. A supremacist ideology which considers all others to be untermensch / Infidel. A desire for a global Reich / Caliphate. The use of violence to achieve this.

      The BBC’s respect/admiration for Islam, which shares so many core beliefs with Nazism is more than a little perverse of course. If Islam was historically a white European ideology, the BBC would denounce it as racist/fascist supremacism.

      The vast majority of Muslims are not white Europeans though, hence the BBC’s support for a global viewpoint they would find repugnant if espoused by those with a different skin colour. Truly bizarre and high time the BBC was called out on this.

      My personal view is that the toy-town revolutionaries within the BBC support anything which is useful in destroying the Christian capitalist West, but I rather fear these leftist traitors have already lost control of their revolutionary pawns.

      Paul Weston, Liberty GB.

      • Icebow

        This morning I sent Sarah Montague a copy of the Muslim Brotherhood’s ‘Project’. You never know!

      • greggf

        “My personal view is that the toy-town revolutionaries within the BBC support anything which is useful in destroying the Christian capitalist West..”

        It used to be socialism or a sanitized version of it; but a fusion of socialism with Islam is the solution that many see as the final answer to the “decadence” of the christian capitalist west.
        George Galloway and his Respect party may fit such a profile.

        • TonyBuck2

          The West is decadent (mainly because of its capitalist wealth) and has been post-Christian since about 1680. In Britain, a Christian revival in about 1760 (John Wesley and others) partly and temporarily reversed this, so that in 1939, Britain and Poland were the only significant remaining Christian countries and thus the only countries willing and capable of defying Hitler and his religious creed (Satanism disguised for political reasons as Germanism).

          Since the Fifties, decadence has trickled down to the general UK population, so that Christianity is now the counter-culture.

          If you’re worried about the future of Capitalism, don’t worry about clowns like Galloway – worry about the Capitalists.

          • greggf

            I worry about neither of those Tony, only our weak and feckless political inheritance.

          • Baron

            Using your prism at looking at it all, explain why the traffic is all one way – from the medieval sandpits to the decadence of the West. How come?

          • stoneyage

            I thougt most of the “capitalist wealth” resided in the Middle East, you know, those obscene oil profits?

      • Jonathan Sidaway

        Superb. Thank you. The BBC is frightening because it is so ubiquitous that politicians are scared of upsetting it.

        • TonyBuck2

          You are using the BBC as a convenient scapegoat, rather than facing your fears.

          • Jonathan Sidaway

            Possibly. But the fears are real enough.

        • FreyaB

          Ask yourselves why the BBC commissioned the Balen Report at the licence fee payers’ expense and then spent thousands of pounds in licence payers’ money in court action in suppressing its publication – it was deemed not to be in the public interest. What has al-Beeb got to hide?

      • anyfool

        It really is hard to fathom out the reason that the staff go along with this.
        There must be a hard line cadre in the upper echelon to drive this seeming death wish at the BBC, Hitler was a mad man with megalomania who carried most of Germany before him with soaring rhetoric, these people in the BBC are just as mad because like him they actually believe they are morally superior to anyone who does not bow to their thinking.
        It is not a giant leap for people like this to become just as mad, it is a common thread throughout history.

        • TonyBuck2

          Get real – the Beeb didn’t murder Lee Rigby nor will the Beeb blow you up.

          • anyfool

            The BBC has become too political, it is distorting all of its political output or fails to report on events that do not suit its lefty leaning narrative, that is what is so dangerous.

          • FreyaB

            But it skirts around the facts for fear of giving offence, which is offensive to those of us who can think for ourselves and want to know what is going on. Al-Beeb’s Islamophilia arguably contributed to the climate which led to Drummer Rigby’s beheading.

      • Shoe On Head

        talking about muslims channeling their inner nazi paul…

        nick griffin just called.

        he said he wants his enamelled BNP lapel pin back.

        (shoe on head)

        • Paul Weston

          Ah, the old BNP comparison…..Nick Griffin is a holocaust denier and a pretty unpleasant man all round, but did he not draw attention to the rape of native British girls several years ago by gangs of Muslims? He was attacked for this and the rapes went on for several more years. All the left-liberal people involved in this cover-up should be thoroughly ashamed of themselves. They collectively have the mental and physical anguish of thousands of these poor girls on their hands. Nick Griffin incidentally, has no time for me and I have no time for him, although I do agree with some aspects of what he has been saying for a number of years – which appear to be taking fruit just as he suggested.

          • http://owsblog.blogspot.com Span Ows

            well said. 10 years Paul, 10 years police and social services ignored and covered up the drug/abuse/rape gangs and the messenger was well and truly shot.

            Shoe on head is a perfect example of deflection trying to shut down debate by ad hominems and ‘guilt by association’

          • crosscop

            Retired Lancashire Chief Superintendent Mick Gradwell admitted that he had been aware of the Muslim grooming gangs for 30 years.

          • Paul Weston

            Left liberals always try to deflect attention away from savage atrocities committed by their pet ideology. I can only assume they either support the atrocities, or they simply don’t care. I don’t think there has ever been a time when the word “liberal” has been so sullied and traduced by such truly disgusting and immoral people as left-liberals today.

          • Shazza

            Paul – the other infuriating aspect of all of this is that the British people, for the first time in their history, have been invaded by a hostile conqueror and they have been forbidden by the very people who were elected, inter alia, to protect them, from attempting any resistance whatsoever.

          • FrenchNewsonlin

            Shazza the response to that infamy should surely be to remove the elected cowards en bloc, preferably in a prison van. Better still, invoking l’entente cordiale request the loan of Madame Guillotine.

          • TonyBuck2

            Since the “invasion” has been non-violent and fully legal, presumably the British people’s resistance should be non-violent also – or should they deal with Moslems as the two young lunatics dealt with Lee Rigby ?

            What has prevented the Brits from “protecting” themselves against the Moslems ? – principally: obesity, inability to get up from the sofa; oh, and the evening’s very wonderful TV schedule.

            The two “jihadis” who murdered Lee Rigby were brought up as Christians – so why did they apostasise ? Because they were brought up in West African USA-inspired “Health and Wealth” Christianity, i.e. Capitalist “Christianity” complete with web pages on property investment (I’m not making this up).

            What has this to do with Jesus Christ’s martyrdom or His message of self-sacrifice ? Nothing.

            Can such bogus forms of Christianity stand up against Islam ? – no, not in a billion years.

          • FreyaB

            The reason for their leaving Christianity was a lot more complex than that, as I am sure you understand.

            Islam is cult-like in recruitment. It targets the weak-willed, the disaffected in universities, and provides “acceptable” outlets for their anger by absolving them from guilt and blame for their circumstances and heaping opprobrium on others.

            And once in, cult-like Islam does not allow them to leave even if they are so inclined. Rather it demands that they prove their loyalty. That is a poisonous mix.

            Perhaps there should be an equivalent of exit counselling for Muslims who are “love-bombed” into converting to Islam.

          • FreyaB

            It’ll take longer, but not all resistance to the Islamoid lunacy is forbidden us. We can write about it and name it for what it is. If enough of us do it, calmly and with proof of what we are saying, then change will ensue.

          • tigerlily

            They suffer from a kind of ‘dismorphia’ about their own culture. They are like the captain of the Titanic – they cannot conceive the possibility that we are in real, actual danger.

          • Shoe On Head

            left-liberal? lol. sorry paul, i just have a regrettable habit of throwing my head back when I laugh.

            (dolphins refuse human status? how dare they)

          • Drakken

            So we just call you what you are then, a Marxist/socialist. How quaint.

          • Shoe On Head

            sorry, but your mouthwash isn’t quite making it.

          • Drakken

            Did I hurt your poor precious feelings? I am sure there is some shrink that will be happy to take your money to help you feel better about yourself.

          • Shoe On Head

            haha. god loves a tryer.

            kisses, hugs and belly rubs.

          • tigerlily

            Just a small point – ‘taking root’ or ‘bearing fruit’…

        • Shazza

          I hope you remember all of these warning comments, Shoe on Head, when you are in the not too distant future, watching the public beheadings, stonings, hangings on a Saturday afternoon which will be the entertainment that will replace the Premier League, movies, etc., etc.

          • Shoe On Head

            its amazing where the black helicopter crowd can take you.

            i am kind of paranoid in reverse. i suspect people are plotting to make me happy.

            (oh dash it shazza. i know you feel the same)

          • Drakken

            It won’t be the black chopper crowd that gets you, it will be the average folk you leftist/muslims that you pushed to far.

          • Shoe On Head

            you say it like i should care?

      • Daniel Maris

        No, it’s not true BBC types admire Islam. Get them round the Islington dinner table and after a few glasses of wine they will be saying just the same as most of us here. But they cannot abandon the equality and diversity ideology they imbibe with their mother’s milk and their first reading of a Guardian editorial. According to the dogma they live by, all religions and all cultures are in principle equal (unless it’s America or Israel or some such other pariah state). The issues are for them further bedevilled by race and skin colour. If 95% of the adherents of Islam were white there would be no end of tut-tutting about this violent gun-obsessed religious movement of the right…

        • Fred Scuttle

          “true BBC types admire Islam”

          That’s why we have the Islamic “Songs of praise programme and “(lack or rational) thought for the day”!

          • FreyaB

            Al-Beebs Head of Relgiious Affairs is Muslim. Go figure

      • TonyBuck2

        Christianity and Capitalism cannot co-exist, since as Jesus said: “Ye cannot serve both God and Mammon.” And what on earth is Christian about today’s West – Wall Street ? TV entertainment ? Abortion ?

        You will say that some of America’s most fervent capitalists are also churchgoers – but they are Calvinists rather than Christians.

        • Fred Scuttle

          So Christianity is a minority cult.

      • Tintagel

        Hence the term Islamofascism as coined by Christopher Hitchens.

        Oh, and you left out the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, Haj Amin al-Husseini, who recruited Arab Muslims to create an SS unit in WW II

        • Shazza

          And who assured Hitler that he would complete the job of annihilating the Jews for him. So much for the creation of the modern state of Israel being the cause of islamic rage.

      • Picquet

        Very well expressed.

    • edithgrove

      “why do you think they have throw all their principles down the toilet”

      They are cowardly. It would upset their expense account
      lifestyle. Even Mr. Patten says they are using the license fee as a cash
      machine.

      • Baron

        edithgrove, you have it in one, my blogging friend, it’s not the views of the BBC tossers we should be shouting about, they’re entitled to them, it’s still a free country. It’s the license fee that’s the source of evil. If the BBC had to earn its living getting the commercials in, they would change the tune at a stroke or go under, not many viewers would be switched on to their take of the world, just look how many commercials the Channel4 news attracts.

        The sooner we break the mammoth the better.

        • TonyBuck2

          Presumably so that Murdoch can run the West;and so that the people of the West can thus become heroic right-wingers breathing fire and defiance against Islam – from their sofas !

          • Baron

            Look, young angry sir, there is but a key difference between the Murdochs of this world and the BBC, gather all the remaining brain cells in your cranium and listen.

            One doesn’t have to buy any of the fire breathing stuff from the Murdochs, but one has to pay under the threat of imprisonment for the ‘all-we-need-is-love’ from the BBC. If, before the start of each Today, Naughtie were to unzip, pull his little willie out, twist it into a hammer and sickle then sing the “Red Flag’ Baron wouldn’t mind abit provided he, Baron, wouldn’t have to fund his jaw dropping salary and pension pot and, more importantly, listen to his take on the world.

            If you don’t get it you should go lie down in the middle of the road.

          • Jonathan Sidaway

            Exactly. That Naughtie character is quite something. He doesn’t even pretend to be even-handed. Bit of a gift, therefore, to those who think as we do about these superannuated pinkoes.

          • TonyBuck2

            If you buy any of his many advertisers’ products, you are making a forced contribution to Murdoch.

  • FrenchNewsonlin

    Bravo Mr Little. Keep going. You may even lift the veil so to speak, from the eyes of some who wantonly wish not to see. Authoritarian ideologies are in direct confrontation with democracy, free speech and hard-won European values. We’ve fought them twice at huge human cost and on a global scale since 1900, do we really need to do it again?

    • TonyBuck2

      Whereas Prussianism and Nazism were very largely limited to Germany (and dependent on the German Army), they could be militarily resisted, Islamism is not and cannot be dealt with in the same way, especially as its lunatic fringe are terrorists and saboteurs, not soldiers who can be fought in battle.

      If Islamism is to be resisted, we must challenge it with something more definite than political waffle about democracy and free speech. And in any case, what are our values nowadays ? – money, comfort and pleasure, to be honest. In a post-Christian Britain, what’s to fight for, even if we had the physical and emotional strength to do so ?

      • Daniel Maris

        If you think democracy and free speech are waffle then your ignorance matches your arrogance.

        • TonyBuck2

          I see very few people queueing up to die for either democracy or free speech.
          The Brits who fought Hitler died either for old-fashioned patriotism or for what Churchill said they were defending, namely “Christian civilisation.” Neither of these still exists 70 years on.

      • jjjj

        Tony, give me ‘money, comfort and pleasure’ any day over enslavement. But you also ignore the immense good deeds that go on in the US and Britain. Charity and voluntarism. Give me the Western way of life with all its imperfections over a hypocritical Islamist society.

        • Jonathan Sidaway

          Exactly. As if decadence – and I am proud to be decadent – and decency were mutually exclusive.

        • TonyBuck2

          I detest Islamism as much as you do. But our decadence – which is very real – makes it increasingly probable that we will, (as things stand) succumb to Islamism.
          As for charity and voluntarism, much of it is for CV purposes – I think that the homeless or elderly poor, say, would tell you that there’s very little real kindness about.

          • Drakken

            The Europeans are very slow to rise, but when that Dragon awakes, Islam is going to be a very endangered species in the western world, welcome to the new Balkans on steroids, coming to a neighborhood near you.

      • Drakken

        Islam will be confronted sooner or later, and I am betting on sooner, by force of arms, oh yes islam can be defeated alright, they will eventually run out of bodies before we run out of bullets.

        • TonyBuck2

          But as Jonathan Sacks points out in his Spectator article this week, “the barbarians always win.” The Empire has the bullets, but the barbarians have the courage and motivation.

          • Drakken

            Push is coming to shove and when the bow breaks our western vengeance will resort to our ancient roots embedded in our DNA, conquer and kill will be the actions we take.

  • crosscop

    Rod – I still can’t believe that Mehdi Hasan got clean away with the deliberate deception he carried out in an article in the Daily Telegraph after the murder of Lee Rigby. He used a doctored version of the Koran’s Surra 5:32 ( missing out the bits that justify killing) to make it appear that Islam is a tolerant religion. He also failed to tell us that the very next verse (5:33) fully justifies the murder – and in the most graphic terms. I urge everyone to make themselves aware of these two verses and bear in mind that Nick Clegg also used the very same deception after Woolwich – as did Tony Blair after the 7/7 bombings. Watch out for the same deceit when they again try to whitewash Islam after the inevitable next atrocity.

    http://quran.com/5

    • Fasdunkle

      and 5:32 applies only to jews. It is widely misquoted, Clegg did the same

    • Daniel Maris

      Yeah I pointed that out. That verse is often trotted out in truncated form with none of the following blood-curling references to crucifixion.

      Of course Fraser Nelson wouldn’t let anyone answer that tweet thread where he allowed followers of the ideology full reign to spread lies e.g. that the Woolwich bombers were not Muslims and that Islam (20,000 terrorist attacks in its name in ten years) is a religion of peace.

      • TonyBuck2

        But as Jonathan Sacks points out in his “Spectator” article, Islamism has everything to do with politics (especially Nietzsche’s “Will to Power”) and very little to do with sincere Moslem faith.

        • Daniel Maris

          Ah, now we get to the nub of it…your glistening arrogance was but the armour plating on the Monotheists Clubhouse.

          A. Have you ever read the Koran and Hadith?

          If you have then

          B. Do you think that those scriptures teach that Islam is not about governance but only private belief, requires Muslims to show good will and friendship to all (whether they be Muslim or non Muslim), tells Muslims not to launch war on non-Muslims, argues against cruel punishments such as stoning to death, strictly prohibits rape, looting and enslaving of others and considers marriage to a nine year old to be reprehensible and repulsive?

          If you haven’t read them, then I suggest you give the bleating on behalf of “sincere believers” a rest and read up on the subject.

          • TonyBuck2

            There are noisy religious believers who are hypocrites, and sincere religiousbelievers who quietly get on with practising their faith.
            In the Christian world, Catholics and Protestants no longer kill each other because the sincere Christians gradually won out over the fanatics.
            Something like this may well happen in the Moslem world, since sincere religious faith has staying power, whereas anger and violence do not. At the crunch, only sincere faith meets human needs, fanaticism doesn’t.

  • William Reid Boyd

    Yes. Another example of this kind of inhumanity was expressed by Anjem Choudary when he refused to express sorrow for Lee Rigby because he was an unbeliever destined for hell anyway http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/4953956/Anjem-Choudary-Lee-Rigby-will-burn-in-hellfire.html (00:50 into the video on that page).

    That really isn’t an extremist position. It’s simply what Muslims believe and what they are taught from childhood. I don’t doubt that Christians once believed much the same sort of thing and that it was responsible for much of the inhumanity (for example slavery) we used to express ourselves, but we have moved on whereas Islam has not.

    As to why we make these distinctions i.e. between a moderate form of Islam and extremism, I’ve always imagined our politicians make them to be sure of the Muslim vote.

    • TonyBuck2

      I’m a Christian of sorts – but it’s beyond my power or any other Christian’s to convert the Moslems to Christian faith; it seems too puzzling, even blasphemous, to the Moslem mind.

      Only God can convert the Moslems – and certainly, only God can save us now (but that’s always been the case).

      • Fred Scuttle

        And as all gods are imaginary we are sunk.

        • TonyBuck2

          Yes, if you’re right, we are “without God and without hope.”

          • Fred Scuttle

            Aphrodite is still around. Relax.

          • TonyBuck2

            Fred

            I doubt that Aphrodite will ever solve humanity’s (or any individual’s) problems.

          • Fred Scuttle

            Why do you doubt it?

  • David Webb

    Rod, you’re taken in by a story about one Mahometan who was tolerant of a neighbour’s bad conduct. No one has ever said there has never been a single Mahometan who behaved well – but when Islam is the dominant religion in a country, the tables are turned. Don’t forget (I don’t think you ever knew) that Malik bin Dinar was a Mahometan missionary to India – he was working in a non-Mahometan society – but the Koran and the traditions of what Mahomet and the caliphs did (known as the Ahadith) require an Islamic state to place a special tax, called the jizyah, a form of poll tax, on Jews and Christians (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jizya#Rationale) for discussion. Apparently, the Mahometan religion says that this poll tax will be abolished by Jesus upon the Second Coming (???). So Islamism as you call it is what was practiced by Mahomet himself… Mahometans copy the life of Mahomet – and that tells them that putting poll taxes on non-believers, raping underage girls, killing infidels, using rape as a weapon of war etc are all good things to do – whereas Christians copy Jesus, who did none of these things.

    For Mahomet’s own views on raping women captured in warfare – see the discussion at http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/muhammad/myths-mu-rape.htm
    The reason Islamism is real Islam is that Mahomet was an Islamist.

  • Nick

    Ron…..you took the very words right out of my mouth.
    A good and truthful article.

  • Hamza Hashem

    While I understand the idea behind the article, I do not agree and find the comparisons tenuous at best.

    Every religion has been use by its followers at one time or another, and continues to be – to justify their own purposes regardless of mainstream ideology. Islam has been misused to justify oppression and violence without question, but so has Christianity (even to this day).

    The problem is not in and of itself within the religions, rather it is within the men who adopt violence as a means of self expression and the societies that breed these people. There are numerous forces, foreign and domestic which cause people to go to these extremes, but to use religion- or blame religion – for the acts of crazy people based on selected verses is quite simply naive.

    Judge the religion on its entirety, not on hand picked verses quite often taken out of context – which has been done by Muslim and non Muslim alike.

    • Blorgh

      Your basic argument is that all religions can be abused. Part of me just wants to shout, “Great, we agree. Let’s get rid of religions!” After all, I don’t see much benefit in filling our minds with unchallengeable dogma.

      But rather than take the easy (and rationally justified) way out, I’d prefer to talk a little about your simplistic comparison of Islam and Christianity. For all the horrors that Christianity has unleashed throughout history, it remains a religion founded by a poor man who preached unequivocal love and offered his life for the salvation of the human species. Islam was founded by a warlord.

      Moreover, most of the examples of historical Christian wrongdoing come from Western Christianity, where the Roman Catholic Church became so abusive that a little event called the “Protestant Reformation” took place. Eastern Christianity has been a very different story. Sure, there were abuses (as you say, all religions are abusive), but there were no inquisitions, no witch burnings, and no crusades (actually the 4th crusade targeted Constantinople).

      This concept that Islam and Christianity are equally open to abuse is just nonsense. Islam is about domination, whether it is domination of men over women, Sunni over Shia, or Muslims over everyone else. It has been this way since the beginning, and it would be foolish to assume it will change just because most Muslims are normal, peaceful people.

      • Hamza Hashem

        Thanks for taking the time to respond to my thoughts, so please allow me to do the same.

        “founded by a poor man who preached unequivocal love”

        – Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword.” Matthew 10:34

        -“But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don’t have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one…” The disciples said, “See, Lord, here are two swords.” “That is enough,” he replied.
        Luke 22:36,38

        “salvation of the human species”

        – But he replied, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of the nation of Israel.”

        This is but a sampling and by far not my main point, rather its just an illustration of how people can pick and choose the views thy want to see of any religion or mindset.

        Muhammad was no war lord, he was a simple man known for his honesty who later worked as a merchant before receiving his revelation.

        You further defend Christianity by deflecting responsibilities based on Western or Easter ideologies. Yet you blame the entirety of Islam even though the majority of offenses come from very specific locations or nationals of said locations (which have also suffered years of Western Colonialism before the placement of despot governments that ruled or rule with oppression since.

        Islam is about submission to God not domination over others. I can just as easily misconstrue Christianity and kill homosexuals or abortion doctors or found racists organizations like the KKK. This does not mean that all of Christianity is to blame any more then than acts of the few mean all of Islam is to blame.

        • Blorgh

          If we’re not going to pick scriptural quotes out of context, then let’s not pick scriptural quotes out of context. 🙂 (You’ll note that I didn’t play that game in my comment.)

          Muhammad’s history, as opposed to the religious mythology around the man, is well established. He was, indeed, a warlord who created an army and went on a conquest.

          As for Christian belief, I do not “defend” it. I do not even like it! I’m not trying to deflect Christian guilt. I’m pointing out that: (a) the founding story of Christianity is one that I can at least appreciate, if not believe, and that (b) the institutional experience of Christianity (as opposed to the individual experience that you are talking about) is historically far less overtly aggressive than the Muslim one.

          • Hamza Hashem

            First of all, the use of the quotes, is that – that is the very reason you are blaming Islam for violence.

            Secondly the history of Muhammad as a warlord is not well documented and shows you lack of knowledge regarding his history, especially his early history. Muhammad in fact fled his home city and moved to another where his followers joined him. An army was built for defense from attacks from the other city. Yes, he did eventually return and conquer the city which in and of itself is not usual in historical context. Furthermore, under Muhammad’s leadership there was not widespread conquest, so I can say again – a war lord he was not.

            Finally, I would respectfully disagree as you were deflecting guilt, consciously or not. Regarding the founding story of Christianity, perhaps its because you are far more familiar with it than you are with that of Muhammad – but this is a guess. As for the “institutional experience of Christianity ” being less aggressive I would certainly beg to differ and challenge you with the facts of history such as hundreds of years worth of Crusades, Spanish Inquisition, Portuguese Inquisition, Witch Trails on Multiple continents, the use in justifying acts such as slavery and apartheid – the list goes on.

            This is not t say that we Muslims do not have a checkered past (and present) with people using religion to abuse people or do horrific acts, of course we do – but so do other religions, nationalists, etc… We as humans always find ways to separate and divide ourselves. What we need is a revolution of human spirit, the evolution of mankind into something better, where we take inspirational messages and learn from them not destroy them.

            Islam is full of mercy and compassion, and the religion should not be judged by those who acts on their own accordance, rather it should be judge by its own merits, realizing there are by far and away a majority of peaceful, respectful Muslims simply trying to lead life like everyone else.

          • Alexsandr

            a simple difference for me.
            Christianity has evolved for the 21st century. It no longer preaches hate, and it no longer goes on crusades or inquisitions. It has abandoned the Genesis story of creation in favour of the science of physics, geology and biology. It no longer executes people for witchcraft or heresy. It has embraces women as equals, not chattels, and some churches have them as ministers. Women are not treated as second class citizens, and white girls are not treated as trash to rape and pimp. And it does not have the concept of jihad.
            I dont hold a candle fo any religion. But I can generally abide by the moral rules of christianity.
            .

          • Hamza Hashem

            Again- to which practitioners of Islam are you referring? Your misguided notions come primarily from a perception of Islam derived form the Middle East and Africa – both regions that have suffered through series of western colonialism, political unrest, economic disparity and lack of education (in certain instances) which are all breading grounds for hate.

            In any religion or country you find those who most preach

            hate and violence lack education (usually), money/jobs, and political or social functionality and power.

            There are Muslims (1.6 Billion of them) who live through the world and do not preach hate, but rather understanding, who do not promote violence but work against it.

            Until you blame every gun owner for the rampant loss of life – Americans killed from gun violence since last December’s shooting massacre in Newtown, Conn. has surpassed the total number of U.S. military casualties during the nine-year war in Iraq ( 4499 to 4409) –

            Until you accuse every US soldier of being a rapist – Pentagon statistics estimate 19,0000 sexual assaults on its own soldiers –

            Until you stop generalizing you will find yourself with the same old tired arguments hashing over the incidents of the few (even if it were 1 million Muslims committing such crimes a year – that would be just 0.000625% of our population) and blaming the whole. This is exactly what all hate mongers do, so you are imploying the same tactics as the very terrorists you are speaking against.

          • RRox

            No, its a small figure but not that small. 1/1600 is 0.000625 to qualify that as a percentage simply * by 100.
            so 0.0625%

            On your previous post the same error was made and the 0.013% should read 1.3%

            These are still small figures that do not in anyway undermine your argument, but I felt compelled to post a correction to what I am sure was just a genuine mistake.

          • Hamza Hashem

            I stand corrected (I should never hurry math, its not really my friend).

            Thank you for your time.

          • Alexsandr

            Ah. so you are american…

            Besides the jihadist tenet in Islam, I also take offence to the attitudes of Islam towards women. I believe them to be equal,therefore I find the wearing of Hijab offensive.
            I find the illegal practice of female genital mutilation repulsive. And I find the practice of grooming, drugging and pimping young girls a vile practice. These medieval practices have no place in a 21st century developed society.
            Where were muslims demonstrating in the streets of Leicester and Bradford against these practices?

            and I take GREAT offence at being called a kaffir. I am and athietst, thankyou. And in case you are wondering, I am male.

          • Hamza Hashem

            The ‘Jihadist tenent’ is completely misunderstood and we need no delve deeper at this point as I will accept your premise (I assume) that you do not agree with the wanton killing of people because they are not the same faith or because you want to subjugate them. – – – To this I will agree, I do not condone unjust acts of violence, and I do not condone lone people taking the law into their own hands based on their own interpretations of law (religious or other)

            If you object to the hijab, do you also object to the Nuns habit? Do you object to the Coptic Christian women who also cover their head, but in a different style?

            Genital mutilation – I will agree whole heartedly as it has no place in Islam either, and must be stopped. This is a social custom, practiced in certain geographic areas, and the practice itself pre-dates Islam.

            Grooming, drugging and pimping? How do you consider this any part of Islam? It is in fact strictly prohibited in Islam – Just because a Muslim does something wrong does not mean the religion endorses it.

            You can take offense at being called a Kafir, that is your right. I can take offense at being called American. It does not however change the fact. It simply means non-believer, or non-Muslim. I understand how the word has been used and agree it has been used as an offense, but that is not what the term actually is. I can take offense at being called short, but the reality is, I am on the tall side of short. It can been said in numerous connotations and I have had people refer to me as all sorts of names, but in the end, I leave it to them because what they call me, does not change who I am. As for me – I will not and have not referred to you or anyone else as a kafir because I feel there are better ways to express myself to others so that they are not offended.

            As for being male or female it doesn’t matter as we are just trying to explain our points of view to each other. I appreciate your time and energy spent on that, and again apologize if you take offense at anything I said, that is not what was intended.

          • Alexsandr

            I wasnt meaning to offend by calling you a US citizen, just pointing out you may have a different point of view to us in the UK.
            I stated my gender because I was arguing against the abuse of women. I didnt want to give the impression i was a female arguing for their sex.

            You argue FGM and grooming, drugging and pimping are not part of Islam. But they are practices prevalent in the UK by the muslim community so I think their mention here is relevant.

            Nuns are a special case in christianity. They believe when they take their vows they are marrying Christ, and are not part of the general population. Islam expects all its women to cover up. It would be the same as expecting all male christians to dress up like the archbishop of Canterbury.

          • Hamza Hashem

            When referring to being an American as an insult, I have been criticized by Europeans and Muslims, but it doesn’t matter to me actually as I was just making an example.

            I hope more and more men speak up against the abuse of women in all countries and in all religions and all cultures. On that note I shall commend you.

            FGM is clearly a very culturally oriented practice as it is not practiced by the Majority of Muslims, rather primarily by sub Saharan Africans, and some Arabs, and almost always by those who are poor and uneducated. This practice should be needed immediately anywhere and everywhere its practiced.

            Does the drugging and pimping only occur within Muslim circles? Or perhaps are these Muslims just acting out as any other number of criminal elements. I can not support your assertion it belongs in this argument because it has no place in Islam, and is strictly prohibited.

            A nun makes a commitment between herself and God and hence chooses to where the habit. A Muslimah also makes a commitment between herself and Allah and chooses to where this. Is it a requirement within the religion – yes, but it is not required to be forced into it. Religion cannot be forced on a person, and when one begins to force a woman to do this, they not only dismiss its relevance (voluntary submission to Allah) but are acting against other tenents in Islam.

          • tigerlily

            ‘Religion cannot be forced on anyone’ – and yet with Islam so often, it is.

          • Hamza Hashem

            Kafiroon 109:6 – For you is your religion, and for me is mine.

          • tigerlily

            Bottom line: no liberal minded objective person would read the New Testament and then the Koran and conclude that the latter constitutes an improvement on the former. Quite the contrary.

          • Alexsandr

            well we have had several convictions in the UK of Pakistanis who have been grooming, pimping and raping under age girls. There has been an issue of the agencies here not pursuing such cases in fear of being called racist but that appears to have ended. But This seems to have been a problem in the Pakistani community.

            I think you need to read up on how much FGM goes on with British residents. Perhaps you should read http://www.coffeehousewall.co.uk/the-next-government-scandal/#more-933 for a start.

            If women wearing head covering is at the choice of women, how come in islamic areas head covering is 100% even amongst non-moslems?

            I made the point earlier that you are not in the UK. I think you need to read up on how multi-culturism has been brought in, and how it has affested our cities making ghettos in Luton, Leicester Southall and Bradford and many other places.

            One other thing about Islam is its adherants ability to take offence. Google ‘Monty python life of Brian’ it is a comedy loosely based on the life of Jesus made in 1976. OK some bishops were not too happy. But a cartoon of Mohammed in a Danish paper caused mass demonstrations in cities, with burning of Danish flags. Threats to boycott danish goods (Wow, lego, danish bacon and Danfoss central heating pumps must have suffered). FFS, some people should get a life. But the Woolwich Moslems were not out on the streets demonstrating with ‘help for heros’ tee shirts in sympathy for the family of Lee Rigby, were they?

          • Hamza Hashem

            First: FGM is still carried out by people of the regions I mentioned. Its cultural. Second, head coverings is not 100% see Queen Rania of Jordan. Also- I love Monty Python however the differences were too numerous to mention here – but i disagree with how protesters handled the Danish cartoons.

            lastly I can no longer continue with responses in this thread as I have too many articles Ia m writing and commenting on to continue to go back several days and answer a multitude of responses.

            Than you for you time.

          • Terry Field

            ‘Your misguided notions come primarily from a perception of Islam derived form the Middle East and Africa – both regions that have suffered through series of western colonialism, political unrest, economic disparity and lack of education (in certain instances) which are all breading grounds for hate.’

            That sounds like self pity. It is also simply untrue.
            As we can all see daily.
            You make many unjustified assertions. You avoid altogether the many dreadful things in Islamic social life; you are a propagandist.

          • Hamza Hashem

            As always I will thank you for taking the time to read and respond to my comments however I will most strongly disagree with you.

            First of all you claim its untrue, what is? Please enlighten me, because besides saying your “misguided notions come primarily from ” – which is an opinion – the rest of that statement is a historical fact.

            The many things dreadful in Islamic social life? I again must ask for clarification – because the social life of a Muslim in Saudi Arabia is different then that in Egypt which is different then that in England which is different that of a Muslim in Brazil. So please clarify what dreadful things you are talking about?

            Furthermore understand that the dreadful things done in some societies does not make them Islamic, so please justify your answers in accordance with Islam. Otherwise you can not say it is “Islamic” social life.

            Lastly – be honest, I can admit and do quite frequently when I am wrong or when Muslims are. I do not deny that Muslims are people too, capable of hatred, mistakes, or ignorance. But these are individuals, and should not be used to measure the entirety of the religion, especially when one does not know if what the person actually does is based in Islam or not.

          • Terry Field

            Thank you for your reply.

            My response if from a non moslem looking at a plethora of images I see and some experiences I have had.

            To begin,what kind of argument is it to say that because Islam is barbaric in its practice in one country, and more enlightened in another then there is nothing really wrong with it – which seems to be a reasonable summation of your argument.

            Secondly, a reminder of what moslems have done and continue to do as State entities, informal organisations, and individuals – many of which I have seen at first hand; here are some for starters:

            1 Execute by beheading a Saudi women of very high status for Adultery.Direct experience

            2 Removal of limbs for stealing and other misdemeanors – some done by qualified western surgeons for a huge fee!

            Direct experience

            3 Mass female circumcision with cold stream water as the anesthesia. Instruments used: scissors and kitchen knives Direct experience

            4 Bombings, terrorism, slaughter of non-believers across the world.

            5 Suppression of, and control of women by men

            6 Institutionalisation of self-killing with a promise of paradise (Not virgins available though, but 72 apple trees, I understand)

            7 Total indoctrination of children – for example, in England a woman sent to Prison recently for cruelly beating a child for failure to ‘learn’

            8 Institutionalisation of division between main moslem groups with one subservient to another for a millenium until western democracy of single person vote upset the apple-cart.

            9 grooming non-moslem women (on a very large scale) in Britain for sex use by moslem men based on the teaching of how to look at non-moslem humanbeings.

            I could go on and on and on. So could tens of thousands of us.

            Your apologia is totally and completely untenable.

            It gives me no pleasure to suggest that your civilisation is incompaltible with others, but that is the conclusion that seems inescapable.

            Finally, an ex-moslem (I know, for you there is no such thing) friend of mine told me in 1975, ‘if Britain accepts moslems in, there will be no integration; that after a thousand years there would be the same aggression, the same animosity, the same separation, and moslem women would be beaten, tortured or killed on occasion for ‘going out with’, let alone marrying an indigenous British non-moslem’.

            At the time I did not consider him right or wrong; I simply did not know.

            I sure as hell do now though.

            I don’t need to tell you what we have seen in Britain; you know perfectly well.

            Finally – the nonsense about oppression in the middle east; Moslems do it to themselves, everyday of the week, and then blame others.

            The greed of the energy owners is in great contrast to the poverty and backwardness of so much of ‘Arabia’. All home made.

            You cannot deny that it was spread by the sword; History should not be lied about.

            You cannot deny it is prescriptive, proscriptive, and didactic. You know there is no accepted discussion as there is in the other great religious, and great secular ideas;

            There are many kind considerate humane moslems; that is not in doubt. But the balance sheet is so heavily weighted towards the things I describe, and many many others, that you have no strong argument.

            I have tried to enter a British mosque, to look around and to familiarise myself with it.

            I was surprised to be met with aggression, hostility and unstated but clear threat.

            Others have the same experience.

            My response does not address all your points, as you did not address mine.

            That is how it is between the two groups; a hopeless division, widening by the day.

          • Blorgh

            “Your misguided notions come primarily from a perception of Islam derived form the Middle East and Africa”

            So when I drew a distinction between Western and Eastern Christianity, that was “wrong”. When you try to draw a (tenuous) distinction between Middle Eastern/African Islam and everything else, that is acceptable? Come on, now.

          • Hamza Hashem

            I had to say, I thought you had almost caught me in a ‘touche’ kind of moment, so I do thank you for reading and responding, and allowing me to do the same. Please let me redirect ….

            What I said was this:

            “You further defend Christianity by deflecting responsibilities based on Western or Easter ideologies. Yet you blame the entirety of Islam even though the majority of offenses come from very specific locations or nationals of said locations”

            The point being, that you were drawing distinctions between Eastern and Western Christianity yet you refused to do the same based on the geo-political basis of where you were review Islamic incidents from. All I was asking for was to be fair and treat them the same – However I will say I may have come off in an unintentionally offensive manner with my opening statement there and for that I appologize.

          • Fred Scuttle

            The hate is right there in your holy book.

            http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/quran/5/inj_list.html

          • Hamza Hashem

            lol – so now we have resorted to quoting Anti Islamic websites and linking them?

            There is an identical website for almost everything from Christianity to Judaism to Natinoalism…

            If you have specific issues to address so be it, but for me, hate is not part of my life. Thank you.

          • Fred Scuttle

            It’s quotes from your holy book. Not my fault they are nonsense now, is it?

          • Hamza Hashem

            They are as usual, taken out of context… It should be read as a whole and put in context with Tafseer. But you can choose to do as you wish

          • Fred Scuttle

            It’s barbaric hateful nonsense, context or not. Face it. You don’t have to be enslaved by such garbage, break free.

          • Hamza Hashem

            You sound rather hateful yourself… As for me, I found Islam after careful consideration and lengthy study, I was neither born into it, nor indoctrinated into it by anyone else.

            Islam is what helped me to be free… But thank you for your concern

          • Drakken

            Your not free, your a slave to your moon god allah, or the devil by another name. Obviously your study of the devils book is rather lacking, and when us westerners point out obvious facts, you give us the ole taken of context, or it is the anti-m-word folks that are lying and not what is plainly said in your own bloody book.

          • Hamza Hashem

            Your hatred and ignorance of Islam is in full display.

            I can no longer continue with responses in this thread as I have too many articles I am writing and commenting on to continue to go back several days and answer a multitude of responses.

            Than you for you time.

          • Drakken

            Your deflection and refusal really does say it all doesn’t it? In the end it isn’t going to matter anyway, us infidels will be running you and yours out of our lands in droves.

          • Drakken

            You m-word will continue to blame and push us infidels until you get the proper response, think Balkans on steroids.

          • Hamza Hashem

            As previously mentioned your responses are regrettably ignorant and hateful.

            I can no longer continue with responses in this thread as I have too many articles I am writing and commenting on to continue to go back several days and answer a multitude of responses.

            Than you for you time.

          • FrenchNewsonlin

            “Islam is full of mercy and compassion”. And surely the butchers of Woolwich would agree!

          • Hamza Hashem

            Again – theres 1.6 BILLION of us, and they were but 2 crazy people who deluded themselves into horrific acts.

            As a Muslim I believe their sentence should be death. They murdered a man in cold blood, they were videoed doing so, and have never denied it. Done deal -end of story.

            Islam as a whole is not the actions of the few.

          • jjjj

            ‘Again – theres 1.6 BILLION of us, and they were but 2 crazy people who deluded themselves into horrific acts.’
            Well, Hamza, there are more than just two people, aren’t there? Not only the scores of terrorists who commit terror in the name of Islam but the countless Muslims in Pakistan, Iran and other countries who practice a brand of your religion that seeks to oppress women and non-believers. The real issue is the shattering silence from Muslims who are not marching in the streets against the people who seemingly do things that are ‘not in their name’.
            Why the silence? Why the toleration of Holocaust Denial in the Arab world? Why the hatred for te ‘Jews’, not ‘Zionists’. Why the widespread hatred for Jews as expressed in the Arab world and other Muslim countries after 9/11 when Muslims claimed that the ‘Jews’ did it, or that ‘Jews stayed away.
            Why are so many Muslims prone to conspiracy theories that seek to blame Jews for all the ills of the world?

            As to the only ‘few’ Muslim terrorists, why is that we are afraid of Muslim terrorists obtaining Nukes? Because, they would use them if they had the chance.
            It’s not just 2 people…

          • Hamza Hashem

            Again, while I disagree with you I would like to thank you for taking the time to reply. I would like to answer you in kind –

            There seems to be a simply problem of arithmetic so let me do my best to understand…

            According to a leading Anti-Islam website, there
            have been 21,049 Islamic terror attacks since 9/11. Using this figure lets run the math – if every attack took 1,000 people to plan and carry out (reality is, it is usually less than 10), and every attack used a completely new group of
            1,000 people (many are planned by the same people, if carried out by others), then that would be 1,000 people x 21,049 attacks that would be a staggering 21,049,000 people (which no official source has even come close to suggesting) – Yet even then it would still only be a mere 0.013% of the world’s Muslim population.

            It is incomprehensible that you would indict the entirety
            of the Muslim world based on the actions of just 0.013% percent of the people. North America has the highest murder rate of any of the ‘Western/Industrialized’ countries – North America accounts for nearly 2.5 times the amount of murders that occur in Northern and Southern Europe combined even though the population is only 37% that of Northern and Southern Europe (340 million to 903 million) – So do we declare North America as all murderers? Do we single them out wherever we see them and blame them for the murders that occur each day?

            No we don’t so why then do we blame all Muslims for
            the actions of the few? You want to argue doctrine? It’s a false pretense left up to that same 0.013% or less who are misinterpreting what the other 99.987% Muslims aren’t.

            Now let me move on to your issue of silence –

            Once again you expect the whole to speak against the
            actions of the few… Would that be like the NRA speaking against the actions of murders who shoot up schools, while refusing to accept, and actively fighting against gun control laws in America? Where is the outrage at that? Would that be like having all Americans marching in the streets against an unjust and illegal war started on lies and misinformation which has caused the loss of life to over 100,000 civilians in Iraq?

            To deny the Holocaust is to deny history and there
            are those who speak against – but often it comes from people that are not held to the same accountability as the common person so little can or is done about it. As for hatred of the Jews it is a combination of a multitude of factors but the current state of affairs primarily boils down to politics, i.e. the state of Israel. As for post 9/11 conspiracy theories – they are just that, and not promoted by any large number of people in the Middle East or anywhere else. I hate to dispel your illusions it is not just
            a few Muslims who blame Jews, there is loads people who put out Anti-Jewish literature and blame them for everything from controlling the world to destroying the ozone – I cannot account for all conspiracy theorists but
            needless to say they aren’t all Muslims – Remember the term Anti-Semitic was not started because of Arab persecution of Jews, it was because of European
            persecution of Jews. To this day Jews are commonly accused of ‘controlling Hollywood’ by people right here in the US… (FYI – no I don’t believe in a Global Jewish Conspiracy)

            Again, WE ALL, as a species need to evolve – We must
            become better, we must stop trying to blame others for our misfortunes alone and begin helping ourselves and others. We must begin to see the world as a whole, not as varying parts for confrontation or control. Lastly, yes Islam does teach this even if certain people don’t.

          • jjjj

            You haven’t persuaded me and you have ignored my points. That’s fine with me. For the record though, you are wrong. Antisemitism in the modern era may have started in Vienna but the Judeophobia in Arab lands and in Spain is well documented. Now it is prevalent in the Middle East and it is not Israel’s fault that Muslims use the vilest antisemitic language against them. You only have to go to the MEMRI website to see this. It is deeper than antiZionism. It is the ‘Socialism of fools’ of a culture that feels inferior and has to pat itself on the back by demonising the ‘Kuffar’.
            That said I have nothing against Muslims as such for then would be just like the multitudes whom I am criticising. I am against the strains in the religion, not the religion itself not the practitioners as a whole. Though, it does strike me that it must be very seductive (at least privately in their minds) for a practitioner of the religion we are discussing to believe that one day every other person on the planet will acknowledge their superior power.
            You have condemned Holocaust denial and conspiracy theories and I would commend you for that but for the justified counter-argument that it is patronising to you.

          • Hamza Hashem

            Well thank you again for taking the time to respond and read, but as I have missed your points, perhaps you have missed mine as well – and that’s fine with me too.

            And what am I wrong about exactly? That there are more Anti-Semitic people then just Arabs? You will forgive me if I am perhaps a bit lost. I have not denied that there are Arabs and Muslims who boast Anti-Semitic platforms and yes some may even be Holocaust deniers. Where exactly did I deny this?

            What I am saying is that Anti-Semitism has a long history in Europe from the expulsion of the Jews from Israel by the Romans in 72 AD to the blood libels of the 12 centuries and on to the pogroms of more recent memories. Hitler did not
            invent Anti-Semitism, nor did it come from Vienna – Remember the Dreyfus Affair in France was a leading event leading up to the invention of Zionism.

            I am well aware of and will admit the short comings of individuals and will openly admit them whether Muslim, Jew or other. I do not however believe that an entire religion should be blamed for the acts of a few – that is, as always
            my main point.

            Thanks again for sharing your thoughts

          • jjjj

            Hamza Hashem, I have not blamed ‘an entire religion for the acts of a few’. I am blaming the many in your religion who by their evil deeds in Muslim lands and (less in number in the West) who are causing people to fear and react against your co-religionists.

          • Hamza Hashem

            Then we are in complete agreement, with the exception of “the many” but I understand your point. I blame those Muslims for the actions they perform which are contrary to Islam, then they use Islam to hide behind causing reactions against all of us.

            One belief in Islam is that no man can bear the burden of another. Each man shall be held accountable for his deeds, good and bad. This is what I am counting on, that eventually these people will and any others acting in similar manner, will eventually get full recompense for their actions.

          • jjjj

            Thank you for this post.

          • Hamza Hashem

            A true thank you … One of the most enjoyable exchanges I have had here.

          • crosscop

            Hamza – Can you tell us just what – according to Islam – the two murdering Muslim Michaels actually did wrong? They pointed out that they were “forced” to carry out the killing by passages in the Koran. I’ve read it and they appear to be right in that they were following barbaric instructions to kill Islam’s opponents which are laid out in your holy book.
            What do you make of Surra 5:33, for instance? You know – the one which says that people who fight against Islam should be killed, or crucified or mutilated etc. Lee Rigby was a kuffar soldier and a veteran of Afghanistan and therefore according to the Koran would appear to be a legitimate target. Can you explain?

          • Daniel Maris

            I have a feeling you’re not going to get a straight answer to that question! 🙂

          • Hamza Hashem

            Hello Crosscop,

            Thank you for your response – I will try to share my understanding of your question.

            The inherent problem is that as with the Bible or Torah (or almost any book) when you choose but 1 verse of many, it will most often be out of context – so let me share my thoughts on this.

            These verses (5:27-34) tell the story of Adam’s sons – One of the sons killed the other in a fit of jealousy but when it was made clear by Allah, he became regretful. It is then revealed in 5:32 that “whoever kills a soul unless for a soul or for corruption [done] in the land – it is as if he had slain mankind entirely. And whoever saves one – it is as if he had saved mankind entirely. And our messengers had certainly come to them with clear proofs. Then indeed many of
            them, [even] after that, throughout the land, were transgressors.” Which is then continued in 5:33 “Indeed, the penalty for those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger and strive upon earth [to cause] corruption
            is none but that they be killed or crucified or that their hands and feet be cut off from opposite sides or that they be exiled from the land. That is for them a disgrace in this world; and for them in the Hereafter is a great punishment,” however you have failed to mention the next verse as well
            5:34 goes on to say “Except for those who return [repenting] before you apprehend them. And know that Allah is Forgiving and Merciful.”

            The verses are part of a story which is telling of a murder and the subsequent unequivocal condemnation of murder unless under specific circumstance and then reveals what
            will happen to such people but it then concludes that even then there can be forgiveness. The verses were not intended to be a call for murder, rather a condemnation of it and the evidence that even when the people transgress they can feel regret (as was with Adam’s son- 5:31) and be forgiven because we “know that Allah is Forgiving and Merciful”

            Regarding Lee Rigby –

            The men who murdered Lee Rigby were not in any army, nor were they endorsed by any government, they were in fact not even in the country they were so called “defending”. They were Muslims in a non-Muslim land, had they been true to their words they would have gone to a war zone and fought against armed soldiers in a combat
            arena. Instead they chose in a brazen act of cowardice, to murder a man in view of the public to cause fear (or terror) in the masses. There is no historical context from our Prophet that this ever occurred during his wars. So you have people with obvious mental issues hiding behind religious edicts by this or that ‘scholar’ while committing horrific acts.

            Rigby not being Muslim is not even relevant (according to their theory, any Muslim in the Armed Forces should be killed as well) and the fact he was a veteran was probably unknown. Simply they shoes to murder a man based on he was a soldier – regardless if he was in his own homeland or not. This is not and cannot be justified, not by Islam or any form of logic.

          • Shazza

            Even as an atheist, I take great offence at your use of the word allah to describe the god of the Old Testament. How dare you, sir. Apologise.

          • Fred Scuttle

            Allah means god.

          • Shazza

            I think he was referring to ‘revert’ – that batty dogma that we are all moslems, we just don’t realise it – yet.

          • Hamza Hashem

            Thank you for your time, but perhaps you have misread what I wrote – I did not refer to the God of the Old Testament as anything, rather I related that the story in the Quran was that of Adam’s sons.

            So no thank you, I will not apologize for anything, and I might suggest ma’am, that you think who exactly you are to be demanding of anything from anyone.

          • Shazza

            The Old Testament predates the Quran. Use the correct terminology.

          • Hamza Hashem

            When did I not? I never said the Quran came first? Where did I say that?

            Again – Please read before commenting… You are taking things out of context without reading the actual verses.

          • Shazza

            It is always ‘taking things out of context’ – mmm I think we have heard that old chestnut before……….

          • Hamza Hashem

            If it is not taking it out of context – PLEASE- for the love of God, tell me where I said the Quran came before the Old Testament?

            Perhaps you heard that before, because your regularly do it?

          • Drakken

            Kinda funny that your devils book fails to mention the word love in it. Strange really?

          • Daniel Maris

            Yep, we were forgetting the historical context of the Prophet’s time. Here’s some historical context (courtesy of Answering Islam):

            “The earliest biography (sirat) of Muhammad’s life is the work of Ibn Ishaq (85-151 A.H.) who was born in Medina. In this we learn of Muhammad’s actions after he had conquered the towns of Khaybar. This event is also accepted and recorded by Ibn Kathir [1].

            THE REST OF THE AFFAIR OF KHAYBAR

            Kinana b. al-Rabi`, who had the custody of the treasure of B. al-Nadir, was brought to the apostle who asked him about it. He denied that he knew where it
            was. A Jew came (T. was brought) to the apostle and said that he had seen Kinana going round a certain ruin every morning early. When the apostle said to Kinana,
            “Do you know that if we find you have it I shall kill you?” he said Yes. The apostle gave orders that the ruin was to be excavated and some of the treasure was found. When he asked him about the rest he refused to produce it, so the
            apostle gave orders to al-Zubayr b. al-`Awwam, “Torture him until you extract what he has,” so he kindled a fire with flint and steel on his chest until he was nearly dead. Then the apostle delivered him to Muhammad b. Maslama and he
            struck off his head, in revenge for his brother Mahmud. (Ibn Ishaq, Sirat Rasul Allah, translated as, The Life of Muhammad, (tr. A. Guillaume),
            Karachi: Oxford University Press, 1998, p. 515.)”

          • crosscop

            Thanks for the detailed reply – but it does not get Islam off the hook. It does not get you off the hook either – as you believe that in some circumstances it is right to kill, crucify or mutilate people. Now –

            “Except for those who return [repenting] before you apprehend them. And know that Allah is Forgiving and Merciful.”

            This would appear to suggest that if someone surrenders and “repents” they should be forgiven. If the Michaels had stopped Lee Rigby and told him to repent he would probably have told them to get stuffed – and so, according to the Koran they would still have been justified in killing him, crucifying him or mutilating him. This is evil. Can’t you see that?

            I think you are wasting your time commenting here. If you oppose what these men did – you should be arguing with your co-religionists. They are the ones who follow the violent instructions they read in the Koran – not us.

            By the way – let’s see you try to justify the butchery of the Banu Qurayza and the rape of female captives by Mohammad and his merry men. Or the assassination of Asma bint Marwan in a manner that would even have shamed Charles Manson. Your “Perfect Man” wasn’t actually very nice, was he?

          • Daniel Maris

            I don’t think you were replying to me! LOL

          • crosscop

            Ooops!

          • Fred Scuttle

            It’s is worrying that 1.6 billion people believe in hateful divisive bollocks.

            “Take not the Jews and the Christians for friends”.

            Nice.

          • Hamza Hashem

            OK – I see how this works… Let me try …

            1 Corinthians 15:33

            “Do not be deceived: “Bad company ruins good morals.”

            2 John 1:10-11

            “If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not receive him into your house or give him any greeting, for whoever greets him takes part in his wicked works.”

            Mark 16:16

            “Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.”

            Nice…

          • Fred Scuttle

            Islam and Christianity are both the bastard children of Judaism, fairytales about a tribal Jewish war god.

            Stuff ignorant people used to believe.

          • Hamza Hashem

            You see – I have stayed away from name calling or denigrating remarks while you have steadily thrown them my way. You are entitled to your beliefs, however you are treating me as you complain others do – You understand, that whole forcing your beliefs on others thing ….

          • Drakken

            Jews/Christians do not in any way, shape or form worship the same God as the m-word, period.

          • Fred Scuttle

            Agreed. You all have different gods made in your imagination.

          • Shazza

            Mmmmm … no exhortations to kill them though!! And it is jolly good advice though… bad apple in the barrel, doing good rather than evil .. and as for the last quote, if you are a believer and you you do good, you will be rewarded. This is in direct contrast to the instruction that if you kill (!!!) the infidel, you get to be a martyr (!!!) and you get the virgins. The basic tenet of Jesus’s teaching was ‘love your neighbour’, etc, etc. So .. kill and you get rewarded vs love and you get rewarded. Simplistic but basic. And as an atheist, I approach this totally objectively and can only accept which philosophy will bring easier understanding and mutual happy co-existence between all people on this planet. Hopefully.

          • Drakken

            East is east and west is west and never the twain shall meet. I would think you would be much happier in the Islamic paradise of your choice, why live amongst us lowly infidels?

          • Drakken

            Where ever I-word goes, blood always flows. Well at least the Buddhists of Burma have had enough of the I-word.

          • Hamza Hashem

            I can no longer continue with responses in this thread as I have too many articles I am writing and commenting on to continue to go back several days and answer a multitude of responses.

            Than you for you time.

          • Icebow

            He says that Mohammedanism has a chequered past. The only problem is that all of the squares are black.

          • Fred Scuttle

            The Quran can be cherry picked for good or bad bits.Just as the bible can.

          • tigerlily

            The crusades, Spanish inquisition, Portuguese inquisition,Witch trials were not part of the ‘founding story’ of Christianity! They were all at least 1000 years after that event!!

          • Hamza Hashem

            I did not say there was anything to feel guilty about, perhaps you are taking it out of context as it was in response to the comment I was replying to. – Thank you

          • tigerlily

            Your words:
            “Finally, I would respectfully disagree as you were deflecting guilt, consciously or not. Regarding the founding story of Christianity, perhaps its because you are far more familiar with it than you are with that of Muhammad – but this is a guess.”

          • Hamza Hashem

            Please allow me to put it in proper context for you…

            His words: “I’m pointing out that: (a) the founding story of Christianity is one that I can at least appreciate, if not believe”

            My words: ” Regarding the founding story of Christianity, perhaps its because you are far more familiar with it than you are with that of Muhammad – but this is a guess”

            Explanation: I was eluding to the fact that perhaps he is more comfortable with and appreciative of ‘the founding story of Christianity’ (his words, not mine) because he was more familiar with it then he was with Islam.

            *** I am not trying to antagonize you, but I have not said or referred to anyone having to feel guilt about anything. For clarification, whether or not I agree with ones point of view, or ideology, I stay away from denigrating remarks they are non constructive, simply put – I do not insult others religions or beliefs.

          • tigerlily

            There is nothing wrong with insulting people’s beliefs – it is the hallmark of a healthy society when people can say what they really think without fear. But you still have not explained in what way he is ‘deflecting guilt’.

          • Hamza Hashem

            You did not ask me that part, but please allow me to explain.

            His Words: “Moreover, most of the examples of historical Christian wrongdoing come from Western Christianity, where the Roman Catholic Church became so abusive”

            My Words: “You further defend Christianity by deflecting responsibilities based on Western or Easter ideologies. Yet you blame the entirety of Islam even though the majority of offenses come from very specific locations or nationals of said locations”

            Explanation: As you can see by my response he was deflecting criticism to one side of the plate and not assuming the guilt for the religion as a whole, yet he was not doing the same thing when talking about Islam. My point was if you wish to minimize the damage of ‘Eastern Christians’ by blaming the ‘Western Christians’ then why was not the same practice applied to his argument about Islam considering the majority of the “offenses come from very specific locations or nationals of said locations”

            Hope that helps clarify what I meant. Thanks for your time.

          • Paul Weston

            Hamza Hashem, is it not a fact that when the Meccans besieged Medina, Mohammed subsequently ordered the beheading of some 700 male members of the Jewish Banu Qurayza tribe (who he claimed had failed to help in the defence of Medina) and then sold their surviving women and children into slavery?

            Did not Mohammed also state “The sword is the key to heaven and hell” and was not Mohammed’s final revalation “I have been ordered to fight all men until they recognise there is no God but Allah” ??

            You are either unaware that Mohammed was a warlord, or you are practicing deception, which of course is also Koranically mandated and known as taqiyya.

            You ain’t fooling anyone.

          • Hamza Hashem

            Thank you for your time in reading and replying to my comments.

            That being said let me begin my answer by saying – No it is not true. For my refutation of the incident please refer to my article on it here http://foreverislam.blogspot.com/2010/02/banu-qurayza-massacre-or-myth.html

            Forgive me is I am unfamiliar with the phrase “The sword is the key to heaven and hell” but that is not exactly an incorrect thing. Every Religion has taken up weapons to defend itself over the years, as has every country using the same ideology. Stating it’s also a key to hell seems a warning against unjustified killings doesn’t it?

            Furthermore Taqiyya is not a Quranicaly mandated practice. Rather, when taken in context, it originates from Surah 3 Ayat 28 (3:28) and it means a believing
            individual can deny his faith or commit otherwise illegal or blasphemous acts while they are at risk of significant persecution or physical harm. This is view held by the majority of Muslims as stated in the Tafseer of both Ibn Kathir and Al Tabari.

          • Drakken

            Your I word is completely incompatible with our western ways of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. You blame western colonizers for your decline and regression, nothing could be further from the truth than that. I make no apologizes for our western superiority for if it wasn’t for us westerners, you folks would still be living in tents humping your goats. You m-word should be grateful that Western Civilization has given mankind everything that you enjoy in the 21st century. As for the Crusades? It was a result of m-word aggression in the holy land and entirely justified, just ask Constantinople how they feel about Islamic conquest? Oh that’s right, you can’t because everyone was slaughtered or sold off to slavery, and you wonder why the people of the Balkans of Christian extraction have a heartfelt hatred for anything Islamic to this day. So please spare us westerners the moral equivalency argument when there isn’t one.

          • Hamza Hashem

            Your response is regrettably ignorant and hateful.

            I can no longer continue with responses in this thread as I have too many articles I am writing and commenting on to continue to go back several days and answer a multitude of responses.

            Than you for you time.

        • Fred Scuttle

          Primitive humans invented gods to usurp and control other humans. Weird how so many are willing to be controlled by primitive tribal nonsense today. billions. It’s very depressing. How on earth can anyone read the demented claptrap in the quran or bible and seriously believe it’s the word of a god? It can only be faulty thinking.

        • Terry Field

          You selectively distort the history and message of Christianity. Your comments about Muhammad are not uncontested elsewhere, as you well know, or should

          • Hamza Hashem

            ditto – right back atchya… Or let me just say:

            “You selectively distort the history and message of Islam. Your comments about Muhammad are not uncontested elsewhere, as you well know, or should”

          • Terry Field

            Do you think you sell your religion to us by distorting and insulting our own?

          • Hamza Hashem

            Please, inform me where I insulted your own religion. This is not a practice I partake in, I leave it for the multitude of those on here who have been insulting me and my religion all day (forgive me but I have answered perhaps 100 or more replies so far).

            I have not insulted your religion, nor am I selling anything. I am simply trying to correct what I feel is misinformation. It is upto you to believe, disbelieve, hate or not.

          • Terry Field

            Read your words; you are the mother of a salesman. You should work in an advertising agency. You probably do.

          • Hamza Hashem

            And yet you still have not told me how I insulted your religion. Who is the salesman now?

          • Terry Field

            I note you have not responded to my detailed note on a small set of the horrors that your religion and the societies that have sprung fro it have perpetrated.

          • Terry Field

            Let’s call a spad a spade. You selectively quote to distort Christ’s message. That makes you dishonourable to the Christian audience, and to many others; that is much worse than being a liar.

            You have not responded to my note re your religion’s depredations, It is found below. Others have read it. And we have no illusions about you, your motivation, and your prejudices.

          • Hamza Hashem

            First of all – I have not distorted ‘Christ’s’ Messages, merely showed how they could b distorted, just as you and your kind distort the Quan’s message.

            That being said – I can no longer continue with responses in this thread as I have too many articles Ia m writing and commenting on to continue to go back several days and answer a multitude of responses.

            Than you for you time.

      • Baron

        You’re on the wrong track here, my blogging friend. It ain’t to us, the non-Muslims, to tell the Hashems how to interpret the Koran, any of its hadiths, anything that goes with it. It’s up to the members of the club of the followers of Allah to argue, debate, decide. What should be up to us is to say to them that whilst the interpreting goes on we will not tolerate those who either preach or practise the hadiths of the sword. We will either shut them up, or kick them out of the country. That’s should be our job if we believe in our belief system, the set of our secular values, our culture.

        • Daniel Maris

          Well you’re not wrong in what we need to do but we also do have to expose lies told about the ideology e.g. that it is a religion of peace, that it treats Jews and Christians as equals, that it treats women equally, that Islam does not accept terrorists to be Muslims…etc Otherwise the lies will go unchallenged.

        • Blorgh

          Oh, it never crossed my mind to tell Muslims how to interpret their religion. I am saying how *I* interpret their religion. They can use that information as they like in their own internal deliberations.

    • Shazza

      Wherever in the world there is Islam, there is horror. QED.

      • Hamza Hashem

        Rather simplistic generalization, but your entitled to your own opinions.

        • Fred Scuttle

          Can you think of anywhere where that isn’t the case?

          • Hamza Hashem

            Can you think of anywhere that not experiencing horrors? Read the news on a daily basis and you will see all countries, everywhere have issues – some worse then others.

            Malaysia… Brunei… Bosnia (until the Serbs slaughtered them)… there are places if one wants to look.

          • Fred Scuttle

            Sweden, Turkey?

          • Hamza Hashem

            You say Sweeden, I say Brunie… You say Turkey, I say not true if your a Kurd… Or an American woman getting raped and killed… Perhaps another place.

            Point is – Horrors occur all over the world and are perpetuated by all sorts of people, no one group is the great evil.

          • Fred Scuttle

            My point is a disproportionate amount of problems are caused by Muslims. Maybe you should all chill out and have a beer or two and try harder to integrate, rather than demanding that everyone fits in with you.

          • Hamza Hashem

            Disproportionate? As in compared to what?

            Bottom line is you seem to be (perhaps not, I am assuming) a very hateful person especially in regards to religions, specifically to Islam. You will forgive me if I can only take your comments as at the minimum, biased.

          • Fred Scuttle

            Islam has scored a number of new lows lately.

            Of course I despise the nonsense that is religion masquerading as a kind of great truth. It’s holding everyone back.How ridiculous is Allah, not letting you eat pork and teaching you to regard non-believers as inferior.

            Islam is hilariously funny, tragic, stupid and dangerous at the same time.

          • Hamza Hashem

            Yet you believe your attitude is any different? A rose by any other name my friend. You are preaching the very attitudes you are condemning.

          • Shazza

            Islam is not a religion – it is a fascist ideology masquerading as a religion.

          • tigerlily

            Disproportionate compared with everyone else.

          • Hamza Hashem

            Perhaps your right. Its not like anyone walks into schools and opens fire on men, women and children for no reasons. I am sure those entrusted with protecting our countries surely wouldn’t sexually assault their coworkers and compatriots at staggering numbers. Its not like an illegal and unjustified war was started based on lies and purposeful deceit, a war that has cost the loss of over 100,000 Iraqi civilians.

            I am sure there is not alot to hold up in comparison…

          • tigerlily

            Whataboutery – I don’t indulge in it myself. I know what I see.

          • Hamza Hashem

            Its not ‘Whataboutery’ it is called statistical comparison.

          • tigerlily

            No, listing 3 random examples as a response to what I said is whataboutery. ‘Statistical comparison’ would firstly involve statistics and would look at the whole picture. It is the same in comparing isolated verses from this book and that book – you have to look at them in their entirety. It is not possible for anyone to do that on a comments thread but as I say – I know what I see.

          • Hamza Hashem

            I will forgoe the ‘whataboutery’ then, and shall ask you to do the same…

          • tigerlily

            I don’t believe I have.

          • tigerlily

            No, when you list 3 random examples in response to what I said it is whataboutery. ‘Statistical comparison’ would firstly involve statistics and would also portray the whole story. It is the same with the religious texts. You have to examine them in their entirety. It is of course not possible for anyone to do this on a comments thread – but all I can say is I know what I see.

          • Hamza Hashem

            So perhaps we both will leave the ‘whataboutery’ alone and move on. Thanks for your time.

          • crosscop

            Hamza – I attached this to someone else’s comment by mistake. It was intended for you.

            Thanks for the detailed reply – but it does not get Islam off the hook. It does not get you off the hook either – as you believe that in some circumstances it is right to kill, crucify or mutilate people. Now –

            “Except for those who return [repenting] before you apprehend them. And know that Allah is Forgiving and Merciful.”

            This would appear to suggest that if someone surrenders and “repents” they should be forgiven. If the Michaels had stopped Lee Rigby and told him to repent he would probably have told them to get stuffed – and so, according to the Koran they would still have been justified in killing him, crucifying him or mutilating him. This is evil. Can’t you see that?

            I think you are wasting your time commenting here. If you oppose what these men did – you should be arguing with your co-religionists. They are the ones who follow the violent instructions they read in the Koran – not us.

            By the way – let’s see you try to justify the butchery of the Banu Qurayza and the rape of female captives by Mohammad and his merry men. Or the assassination of Asma bint Marwan in a manner that would have put Charles Manson to shame.

            Let’s face it – your “Perfect Man” wasn’t even a nice man, was he?

          • Hamza Hashem

            First: You are still taking it out of context,as I mentioned, it is refering to people in their own lands. The killers were Muslims in a non Muslim land, not ruled by Sharia, therefore there is still no argument to justify their attacks according to Islam or the verse quoted.

            Second: I do argue with Muslims as well as Christians, Jews and virtually anyone else. The majority of Muslims agree with my point of view, and those that don’t – I have called out and taken to task as well for what i believe to be deliberate misrepresentation of Islam either out of naivety or worse, deliberate distortion. Muslims are human too – quite capable of both good and bad. there are good and bad Muslims just as there are good and bad of everyone else.

            Lastly: I can no longer continue with responses in this thread as I have too many articles Ia m writing and commenting on to continue to go back several days and answer a multitude of responses.

            Than you for you time.

          • tigerlily

            .

          • Drakken

            Your little Iraqi comparison is called warfare m-word. Better them than ours.

          • Drakken

            The Serbs were in the right, much to our horror now.

          • Drakken

            The Serbs just paid you Muslims in your own bloody coin.

        • Shazza

          Please give me ONE example of a country that disproves my statement.

          • Hamza Hashem

            Bosnia was a model of it before the Serbian slaughter of Bosnians during the Balkan wars. Brunei is another. Maylasia is not gripped “horror”… There are places if you choose to look.

          • Drakken

            Nice try, but Bosnia never was a model of everyone living in total wish upon unicorns land. The m-word had nasty habit of shooting their Christian counterparts when it suited them. Frankly we should have just let the Serbs and Croats deal with the problem. As for Malaysia, another lie, the m-word continues to suppress and kill it’s ethnic minorities, especially Christians and the Chinese.

          • Hamza Hashem

            Please see my previous responses about hate and ignorance.

            I can no longer continue with responses in this thread as I have too many articles I am writing and commenting on to continue to go back several days and answer a multitude of responses.

            Than you for you time.

          • Drakken

            You can deny and lie until your blue in the face, war is coming between you Muslims and us Infidels, there can only be one winner, and there are many that will ensure it’s us. Take your devils religion and leave us in peace, soon there won’t be a choice.

    • tigerlily

      The critical difference between Christianity and Islam is in the lives of Jesus and Mohammed respectively. Examine and compare the acts and words of each in their entirety and you will get a clear picture. I find it ludicrous that Muslims regard Mohammed as the perfect man – it is a testament to how the religious mind rationalises away all contrary facts in order to fit in with the dogma.

      • Hamza Hashem

        While I am not sure how this has any context to my comment I will thank you nonetheless for reading and responding. I will however let this comment go as I am not sure commenting any further would benefit either of us.

    • Terry Field

      propaganda – and obviously disingenuous. We are not blind, we see your medieval world.

    • Terry Field

      Hi Abu,
      Since you have not responded to my note, I repeat it here so you cannot avoid it –

      “Thank you for your reply.

      My response is from a non moslem looking at a plethora of images I see and some experiences I have had.

      To begin,what kind of argument is it to say that because Islam is barbaric in its practice in one country, and more enlightened in another then there is nothing really wrong with it – which seems to be a reasonable summation of your argument.

      Secondly, a reminder of what moslems have done and continue to do as State entities, informal organisations, and individuals – many of which I have seen at first hand; here are some for starters:

      1 Execute by beheading a Saudi women of very high status for Adultery.Direct experience

      2 Removal of limbs for stealing and other misdemeanors – some done by qualified western surgeons for a huge fee!

      Direct experience

      3 Mass female circumcision with cold stream water as the anesthesia. Instruments used: scissors and kitchen knives Direct experience

      4 Bombings, terrorism, slaughter of non-believers across the world.

      5 Suppression of, and control of women by men

      6 Institutionalisation of self-killing with a promise of paradise (Not virgins available though, but 72 apple trees, I understand)

      7 Total indoctrination of children – for example, in England a woman sent to Prison recently for cruelly beating a child for failure to ‘learn’

      8 Institutionalisation of division between main moslem groups with one subservient to another for a millenium until western democracy of single person vote upset the apple-cart.

      9 grooming non-moslem women (on a very large scale) in Britain for sex use by moslem men based on the teaching of how to look at non-moslem humanbeings.

      I could go on and on and on. So could tens of thousands of us.

      Your apologia is totally and completely untenable.

      It gives me no pleasure to suggest that your civilisation is incompaltible with others, but that is the conclusion that seems inescapable.

      Finally, an ex-moslem (I know, for you there is no such thing) friend of mine told me in 1975, ‘if Britain accepts moslems in, there will be no integration; that after a thousand years there would be the same aggression, the same animosity, the same separation, and moslem women would be beaten, tortured or killed on occasion for ‘going out with’, let alone marrying an indigenous British non-moslem’.

      At the time I did not consider him right or wrong; I simply did not know.

      I sure as hell do now though.

      I don’t need to tell you what we have seen in Britain; you know perfectly well.

      Finally – the nonsense about oppression in the middle east; Moslems do it to themselves, everyday of the week, and then blame others.

      The greed of the energy owners is in great contrast to the poverty and backwardness of so much of ‘Arabia’. All home made.

      You cannot deny that it was spread by the sword; History should not be lied about.

      You cannot deny it is prescriptive, proscriptive, and didactic. You know there is no accepted discussion as there is in the other great religious, and great secular ideas;

      There are many kind considerate humane moslems; that is not in doubt. But the balance sheet is so heavily weighted towards the things I describe, and many many others, that you have no strong argument.

      I have tried to enter a British mosque, to look around and to familiarise myself with it.

      I was surprised to be met with aggression, hostility and unstated but clear threat.

      Some others have the same experience.

      My response does not address all your points, as you did not address mine.

      That is how it is between the two groups; a hopeless division, widening by the day.”

      Over to you Abu;
      Looking forward to Jordan?

      • Hamza Hashem

        I can no longer continue with responses in this thread as I have too many articles Ia m writing and commenting on to continue to go back several days and answer a multitude of responses.

        Than you for you time.

        (Discussions as lengthy and in depth as this are not best illustrated here in comments on others articles.)

    • Drakken

      Oh so we infidels are just going to take your Islamic word for it and just fall for the ole taken out of context propaganda. Every damn day we infidels see what your fellow co-cultist do around the world and you expect us to fall for the same Islamic propaganda time and time again? The buddist of Burma even have had enough of you and yours, and I dare say it will be coming to a town near you in the very near future, nice try, but we aren’t buying what your selling.

      • Charlie97

        Except oil.

        • Drakken

          Well Chucky, go ahead and ride your bike and burn your garbage for heat. I love how you progressives live in a utopian world of complete wishful thinking and lack of reality.

  • Blorgh

    I always take delight when a writer has the nerve to venture into taboo territory like this. Most people – not just in our times but throughout history – seem incapable of allowing their minds to wander beyond the status quo. I even observe this among people with some form of higher education. Ironically, those same people are quick to express their dismay at the ideas that their ancestors took for granted!

    Frankly, the question of whether Rod is “right” or “wrong” is of secondary importance to me. It is far more important that he offered this reasoned challenge.

  • Newcombe

    That Maalik Bin Dinaar story is utter bullshit. It could be written by Goebbels himself. So the moral of the stoy is that Jews are dirty and spiteful and the only good Jew is a converted Jew.

    I’m flabbergasted (I know I schouldn’t be) that this filth is seen as something to be admired and is meant to show the “school” in good light!

    Making your own self look and feel good by denegrating, insulting and demonising others is a trick played by many a brainwashing ideologies. Islam is no different. I am no scholar of Islam but can anyone point to anything said about the “kuffars” in Koran that is even remotely fair or flattering?

    I’m not holding my breath.

  • John Steadman

    You can certainly draw a distinction between ‘moderate’ and ‘extremist’ when it comes to behaviour – self-evidently. But with respect to belief, conviction, and ultimate loyalty….? Moderate Islam might only be tested in this country when (hopefully, never) the sort of barbaric atrocities we have seen committed, or planned, even on just this small island were committed by the ‘infidel’ against the moslem community. Until then our political masters will be able to safely evade some very unpalateable facts by hiding behind the sort of relativistic perceptions to which Rod points. So, the likelihood is we will see no change in attitude, no change in policy, and the influence of Islam, and of extreme Islam, for better or for worse, will continue to grow.
    Courageous, Rod, by the way.

    • Baron

      John, isn’t it weirdly uncomfortable that in the 21st century Britain, a man expressing his take on a subject, not an extreme view by any stretch of the imagination, should be called courageous?

      • FrenchNewsonlin

        Yes indeed Baron, and surely it goes to show just how far the wind has blown in the wrong direction and how much push-back is required before we return to any semblance of equilibrium and balanced public discourse. Words and concepts have been twisted and distorted out of all common meaning and some of Orwell has been widely adopted as a text book by perverse and twisted political leaders.

      • anotherjoeblogs

        yes and equally shocking it is when we are supposed to laud these imams for finally telling their faithful not to rape young kuffar girls.

      • John Steadman

        Yes. I am perplexed by the failure of national politicians to highlight this on-going squeezing out of freedom of expression, this undisguised persecution of anyone who does not recognise the untouchability of protected minority species. Cowards, nearly all of them, as are the leading lights in the media whose spinelessness is euphemistically described as ‘self-censorship’.
        All the more reason to respect the efforts and recognise what is indeed the courage of those handful of journalists/commentators who surely do themselves no favours by, time and again, continuing to go where others are too scared to tread.

  • Baron

    Good stuff for starters, Rod, but a fat lot of good will it do to anything. The mainstream politicians sit miles away to see things the way you do, and the BBC and the BBC bred tossers, who pollute the MSM in massive numbers, will both insolently look the other way as well as cut you off from many profitable assignments. You good at knitting?

    • TonyBuck2

      Why are some Moslems so angry ? Partly because everybody nowadays is (that’s the sort of world we live in). Partly because we’re still much richer and more powerful than them; we can send armies to Afghanistan, but the Taliban can’t send an army to, say, the Home Counties.

      But mainly because the West terrifies and appals them; the West seems to them a latter-day Roman Empire, brandishing overpowering weaponry in one hand, while the other hand brandishes every seduction (money, pzazz, TV, pornography, films, intellectual stimulus) that will lead their children and grandchildren to Hell (literally).

      The Taliban and the Islamists generally fight us because they’re even more afraid of us, than we are of them. Time for round table discussion. perhaps ?

      • Shazza

        Among one of the many reasons that they are angry is because they are failures. They see the success of western and Israeli achievements in all fields, whether it is medicine or space exploration and it reflects on just how inferior and backward their own cultures are. The same argument can be applied to the Left who loathed Margaret Thatcher – her success in putting the Great back into Britain infuriated them – exposing their abject failure – remember the ‘sick man of Europe’?. Their backward ideology has prevented them from progressing from the 7th century to the modern world. How can you expect people, blinded by hatred, to agree to ’round table discussion’? If they did, it would be under the umbrella of ‘taqiyya’ – the best solution would be for them to stay in their own countries, live by their own rules and leave the rest of us to go peacefully about our own enlightened lives. And when they are ready to join us in the 21st century, we will welcome them.

        • jjjj

          Quite right.

      • jjjj

        I have some news for you. This so called mutually exclusive scenario you posit is false. There is nothing to talk about with a movement that is in essence a cult. They want to enslave their fellow Muslims. They want to enslave non-Muslims. The best thing that could happen is if we recognise and resign ourselves to the fact that we are in a state of war with an evil branch of Islam and start behaving accordingly. It’s a shame the play ’10 days in May’ is no longer showing at the Whitehall theatre. Warren Mitchell was magnificent.

      • tigerlily

        I don’t mind the Muslims abroad hating us – its the ones in our own country I have a big problem with.

        • Fred Scuttle

          To be fair most are ordinary peace loving people. Like most Christians they must ignore the hateful crap that’s in their scripture.

      • Drakken

        The time to discuss anything with islam is over, we in the West demand, if islam does not get with the program, we tell them the time to get out of the West really would be in their best interests, otherwise they get a taste of what the Serbs had to offer, with our compliments.

  • retundario

    BBC-style lefties don’t care about Islam’s values, but rather are totally forgiving of these values because they identify it as an ideology that belongs to the global opposition/underdog – rather like Communism in the 60s and 70s. So they actually admire its extreme conservative values, again like Communism, because they recognise that it gives these underdogs some competitiveness – its the George Galloway world-view.

    • Fred Scuttle

      Islam doesn’t actually have any values of its own. No religion does. it simply reflects the evolved moral consensus in the society around it when it was invented.

      • moderate Guy

        That is utter nonsense. Religion are built around a set of values. Impairing values on the believers are all the religions are about.

        • Fred Scuttle

          So where does that “set of values” that religion is “built around” originate?

          • moderate Guy

            Moses and the rest of the prophets said they got them from God. I have yet to see a credible argument against it.

          • Fred Scuttle

            Nobody can disprove that Aphrodite isn’t the source of love or fairies don’t live in my garden. I don’t see that as a good enough reason to believe in either of them.

            Moral values are derived from an evolving consensus in society, which is why third world societies don’t share western values and western values have progressed away from the barbarism exhibited in scripture. Your man made tribal war god is a snapshot of human morality as it was thousands of years ago.

          • moderate Guy

            Yes, the moral and civic decay all around us is a wonderful advertisement for values “derived from an evolving consensus in society”.

          • Fred Scuttle

            Perhaps you should move.

          • moderate Guy

            Perhaps what is broken needs to be fixed.

      • retundario

        You’ve contradicted yourself in this post, stating that Islam doesn’t have values, and then saying that it in fact does have values, which are a reflection of the moral consensus at its time of invention. I mean of course it has values, ridiculous! Read the Qu’ran which is full of text which values forms of behaviour as either good or bad.

        • Fred Scuttle

          Perhaps you should both read what I said.

  • Warren Raymond

    ” It is indisputable that the vast majority of British Muslims were as disgusted by the events in Woolwich as the rest of us were “– really?

    Why is that “indisputable?” Because the alternative would be ‘too horrible to contemplate?’

    I daresay the vast majority of Muslims in Britain was not disgusted at all. Prove me wrong!

    • Terry Field

      Spot on

    • Baron

      Warren, sir, it would be hard to prove either for one cannot look into a man’s soul, not yet anyway; on balance though the proposition that the vast majority of Muslims were not disgusted by the Woolwich savagery can only hold forth on the assumption that the vast majority of Muslims are medieval thugs, something Baron for one can never subscribe to.

      Look, my blogging friend, we have to scrupulously differentiate between the idea and those who follow it; we did it when the communist ideology ruled the Slavs, it led to our coming out top, we should stick with it.

      The followers of Allah may have their own shortcomings, warts and boils, but they would be as happy (or unhappy) as the rest of us to be ruled by a set of secular man made laws provided we had the guts to enforce them equally. It cannot do much good in their eyes for the police to arrest a woman screaming at Muslims to ‘go home’, but to ignore a bearded Muslim tosser holding up a placard ‘kill all infidels’. The Oxford girl grooming would still be going on today if it were not for the appointment of a new CPS head for the area. He insisted on re-opening the case that led to the successful prosecution of the Muslim gang. The guy’s a Muslim. He applied the law regardless, the non-Muslim before him didn’t. What you make of that then?

      • Blorgh

        You’ve made some great points, Baron. But I want to hone in on your comparison with the Cold War. (Forgive me if I’m running too far with a thought to which you only devoted 3 lines!)

        There are a few distinctions between the communist threat of the 20th century and the Islamist threat of today.

        First, Islam is now all around us in our own Western countries; it’s not just “over there” but “over here”. While there were communists in the West, they never lived in large, socially self-ostracized urban enclaves, nor did they commit the kinds of mass murders we are seeing from some members of the Muslim community. In short, the Cold War was fought between states, whereas the conflict between Islam and the West is increasingly taking place at a sub-national level.

        Secondly, it was never taboo in the West to speak against out Communism. If anything, there was at times a strong inclination to confront communism with unreasonable aggression (see: McCarthyism). But at least people could speak out against an obvious social threat. Contrast that with the politically correct debate over Islam today, in which people prefer to focus on the nasty individuals carrying out the murders rather than the ideology that empowers them. Imagine if in the 1950s we only spoke out against Stalin and not communism itself! In essence, we are now doing exactly the opposite of what you – quite rightly – want us to do. We are talking about people (and ethnicities and countries) instead of ideas.

        Islam is getting a free ride because it is a religion, and in the spirit of liberalism, we are supposed to draw some sort of distinction between religion and other forms of ideologies. But I think it is healthy and necessary to challenge ANY system of belief, no matter what moral authority it claims. As long as this debate is not happening with Islam, it poses an insidious kind of danger to society.

        Again, sorry if I took this in a different direction from what you intended.

        • Baron

          Except for few nuances here and there, Baron wouldn’t disagree much with the thrust of your well argued take on communism versus Islammm except to say that a clash between two ideologies always plays itself out both as similar in that each creed entices the unwashed with what it can do better than the rival in shifting the limitation of the human condition, and different in that each creed deploys tools and ways it feels comfortable with, believes to be the best to bury its rival.

          Baron’s point was much simpler. It was that the great unwashed and the dogma they’re either force to follow or follow voluntarily are two separate things. One can divorce one from th other, it may take time, but it’s doable. The anxiety the poorly educated Slav harbours is that the debate can swing very much against the Muslim hoi polloi rather than the medieval tenets they worship. That’s the last thing we need given our economic woes.

          (Apologies about the brevity of the answer, Baron has only few minutes to spare here and there).

        • hellosnackbar

          Seemingly Islam is a totalitarian ,supremacist,fascist ideology
          apparently inspired by a sky fairy (Allah)
          Tolerance of intolerance can not be permitted(Karl Popper);since intolerance will deny tolerance.
          Measures must be taken to deny multicultural equivalence and to restrict Islamic culture.
          This would be a prophylactic measure to avoid future conflict and death.
          McCarthyism is somewhat extreme ; but communism in the USA was actively suppressed with good reason.

      • Daniel Maris

        Yep, using our man made laws with determination is the way forward. For instnace, we should certainly follow the French on school dress and dress in public offices. We should certainly be monitoring the Sharia courts to see what they are up to and prosecute wherever they interfere with our justice system.

        • tigerlily

          Or just not have Sharia courts in the first place. Also ban kosher and halal slaughter – one law for all.

      • Drakken

        Baron, no matter how much want to deny it, war is coming and islam will not be fought with words, but by rifles. This has been a long time in coming, but how long must a native population put up with being told that diversity and multicultural garbage is good for us when it is clearly not and made to suffer for it until the proverbial straw breaks the camels back, I dare say soon.

        • Baron

          Drakken, young sir, listen to this. Albert Einstein was once asked what weapons will be used in WW3. ‘I have no idea what weapons will be used in WW3’, the great man replied, ‘but I know what weapons will be used in WW4. Stones and sticks’. The last massive slaughter of men, the one that ended in 1945, was fought in an absence of nuclear weapons. Today, many a country possess this evil tool of mass destruction, nobody could guarantee it’s falling into the wrong hands. If that were to happen, those surviving its deployment would envy the dead.

          You follow? You just have a cold shower and a pint. Things aren’t anywhere as bad as you think.

          • Drakken

            My dear Baron, as someone from the Balkans as you clearly are and I apologize if your are not, you know the history of Islamic conquest there, and the Serbs, Croats and Slovenes have very long memories. As much as I admire Einstein, we will be fighting the next war, and it coming soon, will be by neighborhood and by rifle, things good Sir are worse than you think and will deteriorate even further. Those days are upon us now, not in the long term future. Thanks for the offer of a good pint, but I prefer a excellent Kentucky Bourbon myself, perhaps if I could recommend one for you, all would be well and good in the world, at least temporally. 😉

  • anotherjoeblogs

    what is islam ? is it moderate and/or extreme ? well it depends on how much power is running through it. it ‘ abrogates ‘ itself depending on how many volts it has on tap. it may look like a flaccid innocuous balloon lying limp and claiming pity but pump it up and it is an inflated devil on steroids.

  • Jay_Sands

    Thank goodness for someone who’s prepared to stand up and be counted, Rod, good work. In the Telegraph today Charles Moore has written an article about Islamist extremism and as surely as night follows day they shut down the comments. So much for free speech.

  • itbeso

    I’ve been saying this for so long and just getting moderated to oblivion. When someone says they are moderate do not take it on face value. There is noting moderate in Islam. When someone says moderate muslim all I’m prepared to take from that is that they are against terrorism – and I should bloody well hope so. There is a mountain of the extreme in Islam hidden beneath the odd act of terrorism

    • Blorgh

      Ha – well said! I’m a moderate liberal (in the Enlightenment sense), which really just means I hold very extreme viewpoints about the freedom of the individual. Extremism is a matter of perspective. I prefer my brand of extremism to the Islamic one.

  • Terry Field

    Islam is where the accolytes do not take it seriously. Islamists are where they do.
    The C of E is for those who do not take it seriosly. The Bloody Inquisition is for those that do.
    Rod is a good bod.
    Simples.

  • William Reid Boyd

    I’m curious. What would the appetite be for some sort of Conduct of Religions Act (I mean legislation in Parliament controlling the activity of religious faiths)?

    The rationale would be to silence and curtail types like Anjem Choudary. Despite our laws against hate speech and the like, despite apparently 24/7 surveillance, he still walks free. I suggest we should legislate directly against this kind of activity.

    I don’t think the drafting of such a bill would be a very difficult task. As a catch-all article, it should be an offense to incite any act which contravenes an individual’s human rights and then a list can be appended of various practices that are proscribed, ranging from preaching holy war to female genital mutiliation.

    As a preamble the Act can recognise the primacy of our national churches (by which I mean the Anglican church especially) and there should be some provision to allow these their constitutional rights as has evolved in the history of the isles, including declarations of ‘just wars’.

    Isn’t it time we had legislation of this sort? What really are the problems?

    I can’t offer detailed arguments, not knowing much about constitutuional law, but I would be curious to see any respoonse.

    • Daniel Maris

      No appetite whatsoever because it would immediately be used to silence critics of Islam.

      What we need is specific anti-Sharia legislation.

      • Baron

        Around the middle of the nineteenth century, one Karl Marx was
        prancing around London writing tracts that could have been seriously injurious to the Kingdom, more so than the sharia creep today if his scribblings had been embraced by the working classes, yet neither Sir Robert Peel’s administration nor those following it even thought of passing laws to stop him. What we need, Dan, is less statutes, we have to scrap those laws that embed the idiocy of moral relativism, the multy-culty pap, the restrictions on the freedom of expressionn and stuff in the society’s psyche. Had we not stuffed the statute books with all the ‘feel good’ legislation, we would beee much better off in dealing with the jihadistsd..

      • Alexsandr

        Surely any court system that is not the proper courts operated by the Department of Justice should be illegal? We cannot have a state with competing justice systems. Arbitration systems should be licenced by the DofJ to ensure they are fair and operate according to English law. (similar provisions in Scotland)

  • tigerlily

    Mehdi Hasan is an entryist.

    • retundario

      He’s a piece of s***

      • tigerlily

        It would be nice if the liberal media were not so gullible about him. Even Rod describes him as some sort of bona fide lefty.

  • tigerlily

    The main problem of Islam is at it’s core in the life and words of Mohammed. I am pessimistic about what can be done to ameliorate this.

  • TonyBuck2

    If you’re right about Islam, Rod, Whaddya gonna dooo abart it ?

    – are you going to liquidate the world’s Moslems ? (or even Britain’s ?)

    – are you going to convert them to your Christian faith, perhaps by dazzling them with the holiness of your own Christian life and witness ?

    Your article merely displays the mixture of impotent, grumbling despair (and the consequent bad-mouthing of everything and everybody Moslem) that has characterised much Western talk about Islam since 9/11. It merely makes a bad thing worse, since it is a message of hopelessness and futile anger.

    Face it Rod, like the rest of us, you’re merely a consumerist degenerate, moaning about the faith, courage and sincerity of the barbarians – i.e. a Roman of 409 AD.
    Either we develop faith (real faith, not chilling out at a church on Sunday morning, after an exhausting 6 days of pagan exploits and money-making) and the consequent courage and sincerity – or we hit the coke or vino.

    Either way, we won’t keep our affluent way of life – as the song says, “Those days are done.”

    • Blorgh

      I’m not sure I have understood your comment. There is an obvious logical flaw if you are suggesting the only legitimate way to oppose Islam is to turn to another religion.

      • Drakken

        I do believe what Tigerlilly is proposing is to have a reasonable discussion with a people who are unreasonable, the only way your going to deal with an unreasonable religion such as islam is by the mailed fist.

    • Daniel Maris

      I suggest we stand firm, whittle away at it, promote securalism, undermine Sharia, until in the end it becomes purely a cultural phenomenon with ill attended mosques.

      • tigerlily

        But most urgently we have to use all reasonable means to curtail the process of more Muslims immigrating here.
        Also we need to convince the government the dangerous folly of their current stance on faith schools.

        • Daniel Maris

          I agree with both points.

          We shouldn’t let anyone into this country on a permanent basis who wants to see the triumph of Sharia law.

          Islamic Faith Schools are like pumping poison into the system.

          But I would add that we need to have proper supervision of the parallel school system attached to Mosques. Hundreds of thousands of Muslims boys endure 10-15 hours a week of Islamic education. What are they being taught? Who knows? There is no inspection. Why not?

        • Drakken

          So what reasonable means are you advocating to a very unreasonable religion? I am afraid the time to be reasonable has come and gone and all that remains is the inevitable.

      • Drakken

        The time for reasonable discussion and Queensbury rules of dealing with Islamic savages has come and gone, time for the mailed fist approach.

    • Augustus

      I liked your amusing post. Two things have happened throughout Europe to hasten our decline: A sharply declining birth rate, below the replacement rate in every country in Europe, and approaching one birth per woman of child bearing age in some countries. The second threat came from a high level of immigration from Muslim countries, providing new citizens who by and large don’t assimilate, and some of whom are a violent threat to their state. The new immigrants had a much higher birth rate than the native population of European countries, assuring that over time their share of the total population of each country would rise. These demographic shifts will make it close to impossible for reformers to win future elections in order to turn the clock back in the decades ahead. So yes, you’re probably right, “Those days are done.”

    • Overleaf

      You sound like a loser who never had a real job. “consumerist”?? Pls. keep your non-consumer values to yourself, and leave the rest of us alone. WhoTF are you to tell the masses not to consume???

      • TonyBuck2

        I was expressing an opinion (isn’t that what comments are for ?) not telling anybody to do anything. I merely pointed out the obvious – that most of us in Britain have been decadent consumerists since about 1957; though in an increasingly uncertain world (which has in any case caught up with us economically) we’re unlikely to be able to remain so for much longer.
        From the tone and the time of your comment, you seem to be one of the stressed-out hordes who are clinging desperately to the sinking remains of the ship HMS Affluence.
        In the West’s current situation, which is the financial equivalent of The Fall of the Roman Empire, either we can do what the Romans did (stomp about in anger and disbelief complaining that we’re no longer prosperous) or do some original thinking and build a localist, small-business economy (as an accountant I might be able to help here). We’ll be rather poorer, but can only be happier than most people in Britain currently are.

  • Fred Scuttle

    If we didn’t send our armed forces into Muslim countries to interfere in their affairs they might hate us less. Just a thought.

    • itbeso

      These attitudes are from the koran dear.

      • Fred Scuttle

        True, but we are not helping duckie.

        • jjjj

          But many say we are like those school kids in Afghan, luvvie.

          • Fred Scuttle

            You may be like an Afghan school kid, I’m not sweetie.

          • jjjj

            Missing my point intentionally, honey? Right. Enough with these fake endearments.

        • jjjj

          Do you believe Taliban would allow Benny Hill?

        • itbeso

          with our actions or without us islam would be behaving just as it is and always has. they just blame whatever is to hand.

    • moderate Guy

      And how will you hide from the Muslims in our countries?

    • Drakken

      Wrong, they are in our midst if you haven’t noticed?

    • Overleaf

      Islam hates the other passionately since 623 AD. Nothing to do with the 21st century.

  • pedestrianblogger

    Muslims are quite capable of being decent human beings but, when they are, it is in spite of their religion, not because of it.

  • Steve Lembridge

    What is the aggressive and corrosive ideaology that leads British Soldiers to murder innocent civilians in Iraq and Afghanistan? Hanan Saleh Matrud, 8 year old girl shot in the belly by a soldier of the first batallion Kings regime, oh and the massacre of 24 unarmed Iraqis in Haditha in November 2005, oh yes and 16 women, 3 children and a mentally ill man in Afghanistan.. The list goes on. What is that if it isn’t dehumanisation? All sounds a bit ‘authoritarian’ and ‘vicous’ to me. Do we believe and cherish an ideology that allows our soldiers to do this is in the West? Last I heard these soldiers that commited these crimes weren’t muslims. They were just like you Rod, probably prone to beating up pregnant women or something like that.

    • Daniel Maris

      It’s fine for you to criticise dehumanising imperialism perpetrated by non-Muslim states…I agree there have been appalling acts sanctioned by the military establishment in this country and elsewhere.

      I now invite you to condemn Islamic imperialism – the creation of second class status for Hindus, Jews and Christians etc., enslaving of Black animists, tolerance of female genital mutilation, and the 20,000 plus terrorist attacks since 9-11. I won’t ask you to stretch and actually condemn 9-11 itself.

      • Steve Lembridge

        Ok no problems – I roundly, whole heartedly condemn Islamic Imperialism. Condemn 9/11, condemn all forms of barbaric and savage activity carried out for any ideology. I also roundly condemn head in the sand ignorance that won’t face the possibility that the two are linked and encourages the tacit and subtle demonisation of ordinary Muslims in this country. I know lots of them, they are hard working, ‘normal’ people who just want a life like everyone else, they are being increasingly persecuted at all levels, and articles like the above just ease the path to this type of behaviour being slowly acceptable. All faiths have tenants that are offensive to the rational mind. Some Jews consider all gentiles to be sub humans, only in recent times have Christians stopped considering slavery a biblical divine decree, Hindus and Buddhists are persecuting Muslims as we speak.

        • Overleaf

          Breaking news: Islam is not a race.

          Obviously you are unable to tell the difference between Islam and a Muslim. One is an ideology, the other a human being.

          It is a bigoted racist act to stop criticism of Islam. Because that is the ONLY way that the next generation of Muslims will be liberated.

    • Baron

      Steve, bad things happen, life’s full of pain and suffering. If illegality occurs in a democracy there exist mechanisms to correct it, the Army personnel committing atrocities can be tried, politicians making wrong judgments voted out of office….That, my blogging friend, is what democracy is all about, not perfect, but self-correcting. You can in no way equate any of it with an act of a couple of medieval thugs murdering a man. That’s savagery. You don’t get it, you stick your head in a toilet bowl, ask a friend to pull the plug.

      • Steve Lembridge

        Baron, I think your head is in a toilet bowl. The mechanisms are’t correcting it, most of it is unreported. Its so easy to use the ‘catch all’ moral high ground of democracy to make your self feel better and less complicit in acts of savagery in dusty hell holes far away, to justify bad things happening as an unhappy consequence. It’s a superiority complex mixed with denial, plain and simple. The end outcome
        remains the same regardless of how you justify it/or the rationale you use to deliver it – people die in brutal and savage ways.

        • Baron

          Nothing in this world is ideal, Steve, no ideal car, a pizza, a girlfriend, a health delivery system, an arrangement of a sovereign polity…….., but some things are closer to an ideal than others. What Baron is suggesting to you is the system of governance we have with all its boils and warts is perched closer to an ideal sovereign entity than anything else Baron knows about. Can u suggest a better construct that Baron may consider, back, argue for?

        • Drakken

          There is NO moral equivalency between us in the West and them of the east, period. I am always reminded that you self righteous leftards who scream for the high moral ground, are always the first to be buried in it. It all comes down to them or us. There is no longer any room for the middle ground.

        • Overleaf

          Did you ever scream your head off when Saddam was slaughtering Kurds, or Khomeini was slaughtering Iraqis? What about Syria where 20 times more people have died than those killed by Americans in Iraq?

          No — for the racist left, Muslims killing Muslims is just A OK — “it is their culture and they have cultural sovereignty (to kill and maim).”

    • Drakken

      Obviously you have never heard of warfare and think that if we all wish upon a star and sing kumbaya that everything and everybody will be just fine and dandy. War is a dirty, ugly nasty business and it should never be made to be a warm cuddly thing. You wonder why those troops got a little nasty? Because our leaders expect these very same troops to fight wars with one arm tied behind their back, with insane rules of engagement and think some leftist moron wrote the Queensbury rules for warfare manual. So you wonder why they are a tad vicious?

      • Steve Lembridge

        Actually Draken – I’ve seen warfare, been at the front line matey – and it’s BS. You don’t sound any different to the terrorists actually in their justification of what they do.

        “Obviously you have never heard of warfare and think that if we all wish upon a star and sing kumbaya that everything and everybody will be just fine and dandy. War is a dirty, ugly nasty business and it should never be made to be a warm cuddly thing. You wonder why those troops got a little nasty? Because our leaders expect these very same troops to fight wars with one arm tied behind their back, with insane rules of engagement and think some leftist moron wrote the Queensbury rules for warfare manual. So you wonder why they are a tad vicious?” – Osama Bin Laden

        • Drakken

          Let me be very clear matey! There is no moral equivalence between us troops and Islamic savages, period! I don’t know what kind of brainwashed, PC leftist, re education camp you went to, but the bottom line is, eff them and theirs and love us and ours. You win their hearts and minds when you have them by the balls. So son, you go ahead and fight them thinking that they are equal to us, when they clearly are not, I’ll fight them on their terms in the language they understand.

          • Steve Lembridge

            I don’t really care about moral equivalence. Its an impossible debate. What you are saying just doesn’t make rationale sense to achieve the outcome you want. The worlds moved on, the nature of warfare and conflict has changed. We don’t have the resources, the defence budget, to project power in this way. You don’t win their hearts and minds when you have them by the balls, you just make them want to grab yours and twist harder.

          • Drakken

            Yes I know simple cold hard Teutonic Logic escapes you, perhaps if you just sung a little more kumbaya to them, or just give them a hug, yeah that will make everything all better.

          • Drakken

            Well son, you go ahead and appease the savages until they come for you, the rest of us won’t, and in case you haven’t noticed, they already are in a city near you.

    • Overleaf

      A case of few bad apples, versus acts of systematic terrorism blowing up children in playgrounds by truck bombs, in the name of Allah – resulting in 350,000 civilian deaths in Iraq.

      No, for the racist left, killing Muslims don’t matter. It only matters if the killer is a Western soldier — no matter that the soldier never targeted the civilians on order.

      There is no bigotry more insidious than leftist bigotry that gives zero value to Muslim lives – in fact celebrates Muslims killing Muslims, like those on the left that support the barbarous Assad.

  • NA4444

    Another Eurocentric, historically ignorant article by people who love to throw stones and yet have no idea what is in their own backyard. Tell me Rod – was the culture behind slavery completely estranged from any Christian connection? Or indeed colonialism which killed millions? Many in the name of God and Western Christian values. Do the ultra-orthodox illegal settlers in Palestinian territory represent Judaism as a whole? It is this kind of insidious bigoted tripe, peddled as serious journalism which is destroying any opportunities at open and fair dialogue between different cultures. Cultures’ which have much more in common than the mono-cultural chauvinists would have you believe.

    • jjjj

      Just to slightly balance the picture: Arabs were very big players in the Slave trade.

      • Shazza

        Moslems still practise slavery – Sudan, Mauritania, Chad, et al. An Egyptian cleric is on Youtube describing how you should be able to go to the local slave market and get yourself a young female slave – this after the so-called ‘Arab Spring’.

      • NA4444

        I take it you are not aware of the significant influence Islamic mathematics, navigation and philosophy have had on Western culture, to name but a few. It was this fruitful cross-cultural exchange that enabled Columbus to journey to the New World. The works of Aristotle and many more important Western thinkers were rediscovered with the help of their preservation by great Islamic philosophers. The so-called ‘Golden Age’ has been continuous, granted during so much myopic prejudice and biased self-righteous aggression toward one another. This kind of vitriolic hyperbole is what the thugs who commit atrocious acts like 9/11 and the recent killing of Lee Rigby want. An Us vs. Them, civilization vs civilization, religion vs. religion, culture clash.

        No-one bothered to answer the questions, just comfortable painting over a billion people with the same brush.

        • jjjj

          Yes, I am certainly aware of the influence you mention in your post. But I am also aware, as you are, that the influence on today’s Islamists is a much differentt difference, it is killing us, this influence.

          I wish people like you would stop conflating Islam with Islamism.

          • Drakken

            I-word is what I-word does, so playing with semantics only confuses.

        • Drakken

          I see you fell for the I-word/leftist propaganda of the so called I-word golden age, when it was anything but. Most of those so called I-word inventions and innovations was pre-Islamic, or none I-word inventions or dhimmi’s living under I-word rule. We are not at war with I-word, but I-word is at war with us. In case it has escaped your leftist notice, but where ever I-word goes, bloodshed always follows.

    • Baron

      NA4444, when you have a minute, enlighten the poorly educated Slav, how does the ranting of yours address any of the issues raised by Rod, ha? Or you reckon our enslaving people centuries ago gives the green light to others enslaving people today? Hmmm

      Since you were one of the last to join in the debate you should have noticed the backing for Rod, Charles Moore in the DT, Murray few days ago, Phillips over and over again …it leaves people with your views miles behind. Not enough for you? Well then, look back few years, we had in Europe a multi-culty set-up in Tito’s Yugoslavia. A mildish kind of dictatorship, people could leave the paradise, press only self censored. Does Baron have to remind you what happened to the rainbow experiment of cultures that you believe ‘have much more in common’ when the construct folded up?

      Your arrogant petulance measures up well with the baldy in the clip below. You related by any chance?

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2lbyXmw5dMY&feature=player_embedded

      • NA4444

        I’m not sure what a multiculty is, and it is always funny to reply to someone who addresses themselves in the first person. I raised the point that the article is wrong to blindly connect extremist elements in a popular worldwide religion with its mostly peaceful practitioners as a whole. Hmmmm… Politically and economically supporting tyrants who would rather sell cheap oil to Western nations than looking after their own peoples best interests.

        I am an Aboriginal Australian living in a so-called multi-cultural society (I think that’s the word you were looking for). Tell me Baron, would you like our peoples culture to be swallowed up by the dominant Anglo-White Australian culture? Or would perhaps learning from one another be a catastrophic endeavor?

        If you would happily measure up to the bloke in the spectacles, I will gladly be your protagonist. Someone who equivocates a 2000 year old emperor with little (and widely acknowledged) inaccurate primary resources, to the modern day Swedish government is wanting in their knowledge of history.

        Thanks anyway for your amusing reply!

        • Baron

          We should not make swapping messages a regular occurrence, NA444, people may start talking. Apologies if you got offended by the barbarian’s [osting, and good luck defending your past.

          Look, Baron’s the last one to want to swallow anything, he but a poorly educated Slav; since 1620, he and his peoples were mostly governed by people other than of his own phylum.

          What you’ve failed to comprehend is the unhappiness with the state of affairs here is roughly speaking two fold. Many of the incomers show little desire to integrate, and some are hell bent to supplant the centuries old Judeo-Christian culture of this island with a different animal altogether, a set-up that derives its power from a bokk written 1400 years ago. Those who oppose it, like Baron and others, are doing exactly what you want, not to be taken over by a set of beliefs alien to the local culture.

          You follow?

        • Overleaf

          Politically and economically supporting tyrants who would rather sell cheap oil to Western nations than look after their own peoples best interests.

          What a true idiot. If you had any economics, you would know that in a competitive multiple-supplier situation, the price of a good would tend to the cost of production plus about 10% to 15% reflecting the cost of money and the risk taken.

          In KSA, oil gushes out of the ground at $3 a barrel, and then is sold to the west at $100. This is due to cartel formation and supply manipulation. The profit is 3300%. This profit is illegitimate.

          And you call this cheap oil being sold to the West, whenj oil’s fair price should be $3.30 to $20 a barell?

          I mean how intellectually retarded can leftists be???

    • Daniel Maris

      “Do the ultra-orthodox illegal settlers in Palestinian territory represent Judaism as a whole?” No, but they are part of Judaism and no one goes around pretending – lying – that they aren’t Jews.

      • Drakken

        PSSST, just to let you know, Israel is a western ally and a western govt, the palis are not allies and never will be, period. So glad I was able to help you out with that problem.

  • John of Kent
  • jjjj
  • acorn9888

    ROFL
    Spectator! That story on Darul Ulum’s website about a spiteful jew
    embracing Islam is fake fake fake according to muslims’ own scholars.
    please read http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-79046.html?s=b2ed6abe15215abd6b35fa324422850d and http://seekersguidance.org/ans-blog/2011/02/11/is-it-true-that-someone-threw-trash-on-the-prophet-peace-and-blessings-of-allah-be-upon-him/

    Speaking
    of tolerance, Muhammed invaded Mecca, captured the black Kabaa
    building, and destroyed 365 pagan idols kept in there by pagans. There
    was a time when people abused Muhammed but that was the early times when
    muhammed didn’t have enough followers aka jihadists to fight back. when
    he finally accumulated enough followers, he indiscriminately
    slaughtered jews, christians and pagans. the quran even calls them pigs
    and apes and calls for murder of anyone who doesn’t accept islam.
    everything i have just said is taken from muslims’ own authentic
    literature such as Quran and hadith. Darul Uum’s website is simply
    practicing al-taqyaa, an islamic form of lying to the infidels in order
    to facilitate jihad

  • Christopher Wintle

    I watched a BBC Documentary series by Rageh Omaar, The life of Muhammed and another slant on what islam portrays, How he raped and pillaged the whole of the middle east, The Kurresh the people who bought him up and turned on after, War booty, Killing of Christians and Jews, Princess Aisha his 6 yr old wife who he had sex with at 9, Dont take my word for it watch the series, Apostates what happens to them

  • tigerlily

    Muslims have certainly redefined the term ‘religiously moderate’ in the UK context within my lifetime.

  • Ian.H Foster

    Muslims belong to the most deceitful humans ever to grace the planet. and most are full of hate to none muslims, after being indoctrinated from early school days. be warned.. never trust a Muslim.Ever..

    • Steve Lembridge

      I know lots of lovely Muslims, some the best people in the world actually

      • Ian.H Foster

        yes I’m sure you believe that// I have met one or two also!!

  • Steve Lembridge

    Ok no problems – I roundly, whole heartedly condemn Islamic Imperialism. Condemn 9/11, condemn all forms of barbaric and savage activity carried out for any ideology. I also roundly condemn head in the sand ignorance that won’t face the possibility that the two are linked and encourages the tacit and subtle demonisation of ordinary Muslims in this country. I know lots of them, they are hard working, ‘normal’ people who just want a life like everyone else, they are being increasingly persecuted at all levels, and articles like the above just ease the path to this type of behaviour being slowly acceptable. All faiths have tenants that are offensive to the rational mind. Some Jews consider all gentiles to be sub humans, only in recent times have Christians stopped considering slavery a biblical divine decree, Hindus and Buddhists are persecuting Muslims as we speak.

    • Daniel Maris

      You can’t point to 20,000 terrorist attacks by Hindus and Buddhists. There has not been an equivalent of the Mumbai attack in Pakistan. There has been no loss of Muslim populations in Europe, China, Israel or Burma as there has been loss of Jewish, Hindu and Christian populations in the Islamic heartlands over the last 50 years.

      This sort of equivalence is just daft. Are you really maintaining all religions have equal outcomes whatever they teach?

      • Steve Lembridge

        If we are talking ‘stats’ from the ‘Religion of Peace’ lump everything together in to terror attack site’ – this is from 2001. All of these came post the ‘war on terror’ and the geopolitics of the world turned upside down in to what it is today. Funny how the war on terror just created more terror don’t you think? If we are talking ‘stats’ What about the 150,000 Muslims killed by Russians in Chechnya, What about Bosnia? What about the 130,000 innocent civilians killed in Iraq ? what about the daily persecution of Muslims in India (have you forgotten about the 1000 dead in Gujrat in 2002?), some Pakistani’s blame terror in their country squarely at Indian involvement and funding, Burma and China?You serious? I am saying its easy to churn up this rhetoric from any which way you want .

        • Daniel Maris

          You haven’t answered the point because you have no answer to it. Why has there been no loss of Muslim populations in Europe, China, Israel or
          Burma as there has been loss of Jewish, Hindu and Christian populations
          in the Islamic heartlands over the last 50 years?

          The vast majority of the 130,000 Muslims in Iraq you quote were killed by other other Muslims. The same applies in Chechnya – the idea that the deaths are all caused by “Russians” if you mean non-Muslims is ridiculous.

          In Bosnia there is more justice – an exception that proves the rule – although Christian Serbs in Kosovo were subjected to persecution.

          I am not absenting Imperalism, nationalism and any other isms past and present from culpability in millions of deaths. Islam is not the only ideology responsible for such deaths but there is only one religion on the planet that for instance actively campaigns against international human rights – the Islamic Conference went away and issued its own “human rights” declaration – the Cairo Declaration, which essentially abrogated the human right treaty.

          • Steve Lembridge

            There has been lots of loss of Muslim populations Europe, China and Israel. You are in a state of denial. There is genocide/minority persecutions all over the world, All over (Africa, Congo, Rwanda etc ect), Brazil, Central America, Central Asia. All non -muslims coumtries. The common trend is that they are 3rd world countries with shitty institutions, bad checks and balances and corrupt government and puppet regimes. Most Muslim countries are 3rd world countries and fall in to this camp and hence have the same issues. This is correlation, not cause. You are raising the spectre of this as the future – just because you don’t want another Mosque built down the road or are being freaked out by so many Halal restaurants. Who cares about the Cairo declaration. Its only different in few minor ways and is being reformed. Most countries have been violating the 1948 declaration left right and centre anyway.

          • Daniel Maris

            “There has been lots of loss of Muslim populations Europe, China and Israel.” I specified in the past 50 years, which is really all we are interested – current trends. The Muslim population in Europe has exploded both in Western Europe and Russia. I have never heard of the Muslim population in China decreasing. The Arab (will include some Christians) population in Israel has most definitely increased.

            So you are jsut spreading error and confusion for some purpose.

            Yep, there have been such issues all over the world and continue to be but none of those conflicts are directed at us. The Sharia project is to rule the whole of the planet. We are most definitely in its sights. No Congo militias or Brazilian loggers have declared war on the West. Al Queda most definitely did in 1998. And most Muslim scholars continue to define the land outside the Muslim world as the land of war.

            If you can’t look to the future you have no business discussing politics.

            Who cares about the Cairo declaration. I for one care that there are so many states in the world that can’t live with the universal declaration of human rights. The “minor” differences you refer to completely undermine the whole concept of the universal declaration and take away those rights.

            The issue of Halal is that it is being promoted as a way of introducing Sharia law. It is the fact that various outlets are converting to all-Halal, submitting to the will of the Sharia promoters that is the issue.

            I live in London – the idea I am frightened of diversity is pathetic.

          • Steve Lembridge

            Do you agree that Western forces should be occupying the Arabian Peninsula? For them it has been a land of war since 1991 at least. That’s what triggered the 1998 declaration. Simple really, we pull out – bases, boots on the ground, guns – much of the Jihadi rhetoric will diminish. Western forces don’t have a massive military presence in the Congo or Brazil, why would they declare war on the West? Right now we find it difficult to tolerate the site of a woman in a Burka walking down the high street, I am sure we would be much more agitated if the streets were full of Muslim Soldiers in full combat gear running the show.

          • Daniel Maris

            It’s up to sovereign governments who they invite in. As far as I know there are no western forces in Saudi Arabia,which is the bulk of the peninsula.

            We pull out…much of the JIhadi. FFS we were arming the Jihadists in Afghanistan. We helped them get rid of the Soviets. We didn’t step foot in it. How did they repay us? They let Al Queda build a base there and send 10,000 agents to destroy us from within.

            If they hate us so much why do they want to be here? Haven’t you read the manual of the Muslim Brotherhood (who founded CAIR in the USA) – it talks about destroying our miserable house from within.

            I don’t believe for one moment that the Jihadis woudl be satisfied with any concessions whatsoever. They won’t be satisfied until Sharia rules and their prayers are being said in St. Peter’s as they came to me in in the Hagia Sophia cathedral in what was Constantinople.

            The US has had close military ties with Brazil in the past. No Brazilians tried to take out the capitol building.
            All you are offering is the traditional appeasement policy – it never has worked with totalitarians.

          • Drakken

            Well it is obvious that you admire the very same folks that will saw your head off with a rusty knife, leftist really are some of the smartest dumb people on the planet.

          • Steve Lembridge

            Don’t understand? Why it obvious that I would admire someone that would saw my head off with a rusty knife?

          • Drakken

            Because you make excuses for the very folks that will eliminate you, that is why.

          • Drakken

            Obviously you don’t understand simple, cold hard Teutonic Logic, so it is way above your head to try and explain without hurting your precious sensibilities and giving you a serious case of the vapors.

          • Fred Scuttle

            Those lovely Christian Serbs were just as bad as the lovely Christian Nazis.

          • Drakken

            Those Serbs and Croats did what they do best and have very long memories unlike us here in westerner countries who forget what they had for lunch.

        • Drakken

          Give the Russians a little credit, they dealt with their Muslim problem decisively, unlike our cowardly response to Islamic aggression. But hey you can blame us until the cows come home, Leftist/Marxist always blame us for the worlds problems.

    • jjjj

      And the terror attack in Mumbai was carried out by Islamists who for good measure massacred a poor Rabbi and his wife, not to mention the Hindu (and perhaps Muslim victims). The world forgot too soon about that atrocity. Why is that?

    • Drakken

      Well at least the Buddhist in Burma have had enough of the devils cult and are doing something about it.

  • Drakken

    Islam is what islam does, islam will push us westerners to the brink, they shall rue the day they did. They will get a Balkans on steroids for their trouble.

    • http://maliceinwonderland-maliceinwonderland.blogspot.com/ Malice In Wonderland

      Need I remind you that in the Balkans you “noble Western Christians” fought on the side of Islam and created a fundamentalist, Islamic and independent Kosovo right on the doorstep of Europe? Or perhaps the irony escapes you?

      • Drakken

        The irony is that idiot Clinton sided with the very same savages that are against us westerners, goes to show you that you just can’t fix stupid, not even with duct tape.

  • http://www.facebook.com/kerralistair Alistair Kerr

    Good on you, Rod. And note how the BBC and other PC commentators have “moved on!” Drummer Rigby seems to have been airbrushed out of the picture (I do not know whether the poor gut has even been buried) and the focus is on “the (fascist, right-wing) backlash against the poor Muslims.” Long ago, when the Liberal university establishment in the USA had come out against the Vietnam War and would not take any action against destructive student demonstrators or support the right of other students to have military training (the ROTC) on campus, the message was spelt out: “You cannot trust the Liberals. They will always sell the pass to the revolutionaries.” It seems that this message has to be spelt out again and again.

  • William Haworth

    How else do you balance the fact that Islam is a hateful violent religion, with the fact that there are over 2 million Muslims living here? Who in power could stand up and say, “We don’t need any more Muslims here, thanks, and the ones who are already here need to be watched” without starting a civil war?

    • itbeso

      3 million

  • mladenm

    Problem is about literary implementation of Quran as law book, practice known as Sharia. If someone declares desire to organize state based on laws valid in time of Queen Victoria, we would proclaim him nuts. But Mohammed was writing Quran about 100 years before Charlemagne’s times. 1000 years after Mohammed, West was still less liberal then Sharia states like Turkey or Persia but then things started changing fast. So best definition is that moderate Muslim accept fact that Quran can be used as inspiration, and not as law book, in same sense that Christians and Jews don’t use Old Testament in court of law. Those, who still stick with literary interpretations are extremists. They could be militant or not, but they are spreading their influence around world, fuelled by oil money. I’d recommend you to notice that difference and point finger to true source of trouble: some of GCC states. Calling all Muslim extremist will in the end make them all extremist, so act while there is time.

    • Drakken

      You Muslims of whatever stripe, have worn out your welcome in western countries. There are troubling times coming, and you Muslims would do well to remember that we won’t be forgiving nor will we forget.

      • mladenm

        I am not Muslim and in the matter of fact I’m not religious at all. Now tell me, why legitimate Bosnian government could not get weapons but jihadis were coming anyhow they wished. And if you look Arab Spring, it turned out that secular regimes were crushed while feudal theocracies were left untouched. Syria is last line of defence to Arab secularism. If it falls, Salafis won!

        • Drakken

          Let the jihadist of whatever stripe slaughter themselves to their little jihadist hearts content in Syria, I’ll get out the lawn chairs and a bottle of my favorite bourbon with a good Cuban cigar and watch with delight.

          • mladenm

            There are jihadist vs secularist. And Cameron wants to help jihadists. That’s what he did in Libya. Great job, isn’t it?

          • Drakken

            In case it has escaped your notice, the jihadist all over the Islamic world are winning, much to our western chagrin and soon to be horror.

      • Steve Lembridge

        Why do you hate Muslims?

        • Drakken

          A very nasty brutal lesson learned on the morning of Oct. 23, 1983.

          • Charlie97

            So you hate every single Muslim, despite the fact that the Beirut bombing was perpetrated by a few?

            That is the same logic used by the Palestinian suicide bomber, who blames everyone (including mere civilians/women/children in Tel Aviv) for the actions of settlers/soldiers.

            Sir, do you believe in collective guilt?

          • Drakken

            Your not up on current events are you Sparky, did you take the shortbus to school? It isn’t a few you dolt, it is many and you don’t understand jacks*** about Islamic jihad. On 9/11 the very palis you love were dancing in the streets celebrating, so please spare me the it’s only a few garbage.

          • Charlie97

            Do you believe in collective guilt? Or guilt by association? If you do, then you’re no better than a ‘Pali’ suicide bomber. If you don’t, then stop lumping all of us together.

          • Drakken

            Islam is what islam does, so yes islam collectively is guilty. Leave us in peace from the west and go practice the devils religion in the Islamic paradise of your choice.

          • Charlie97

            That isn’t what I asked.

            Are all Muslims collectively guilty of crimes perpetrated by a minority?

  • mladenm

    If you look Arab Spring, it turned out that secular regimes were
    crushed while feudal theocracies were left untouched. Syria is last line
    of defence to Arab secularism. If it falls, Salafis won!

  • arsalan

    Okay the things he wrote are absolutely lopsided
    About calling kuffars cattle the prophet emphasized only on saying dat how foolish people were who couldn’t’ see the truth and how clouded there vision was, certainly he had his ways of persuading people and making dem understand the point , often by giving examples
    Now give me one example of any prophet who didn’t call the disbelievers foolish
    This never ment he that he looked at them with disdain or hatred neither does it mean that Islam regards non Muslims as degenerate

  • TALAL ITANI

    The QURAN is here, for all to read, in English
    http://www.ClearQuran.com

    • Drakken

      And we infidels can’t pizz enough on it.

  • sardindukurup

    It is a paralysys of terrified hare looking the eyes of a python.

  • global city

    Just found this hatchet attempt on Rod Liddle for calling murdering Muslims (note, not all, jut the ones who actually commit the crime)

    http://www.iengage.org.uk/component/content/article/674-rod-liddle-on-muslim-savages

    On another page they ran this article about people they no doubt would only not complain if titles as ‘insurgents’.

    http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/egypt-violence-gang-throws-rivals-2034262

  • Paul A

    Yawwwn – Rod vents his spleen/ trots out the same tired, ignorant bilge again – and some suckers pay him for it. Don’t see that as terribly daring, or original …

  • jim cooper

    Rod,
    I’m very worried about you. Your mastery of irony is legendary and long may it continue. But I’m concerned that after constant contact with European culture Moslems will suss your game. Without their pre-feudal humourless literalism, I’m afraid your boat is sunk. There are signs, barely visible at the present time, but signs nonetheless, that such a development is in the wind. Do you think I’ve got a point? I hope not but please don’t get blasé about it. The day might be just around the corner when Mr Choudrey instead of wanting to kill you and me might instead decide to laugh at us – where will we be then?

    • http://www.facebook.com/people/Angela-Horne/1621823849 Angela Horne

      as long as we have weak government, they will laugh, they show the UK no gratitude for rescuing their asylum seeking families, yes, they’re having a laugh, all right

  • LindaRivera

    “It is indisputable that the vast majority of British Muslims were as disgusted by the events in Woolwich as the rest of us were…”
    Can you give evidence for this? On 9/11, regular Muslims, NOT terrorists, celebrated in America and countries around the world. THOUSANDS of Palestinian Authority Muslims CELEBRATED with great joy the mass murder of our people. They danced in the streets, passed out sweets and fired into the air.

  • jimcooper

    Yes, you are probably right. So, no chance of any change then and certainly no gratitude. Regrettably as things stand I think we are safe from islam joining in our discourse of free speech, satire, and irony. If only our government would OPENLY exercise some of these qualities then maybe the open society might be saved and the more rational amongst its enemies might see the light and adopt a mentality more fit for the post-feudal world. But I am not hopeful!

  • Ian.H Foster

    The whole BBC/Islam relationship is very odd. BBC types do not admire Nazi Party ideology, but they do admire Islam.

    from Paul Western:
    I mention the Nazi party only to draw an ideological parallel with Islam. A messianic leader who cannot be criticised. Death to Jews and homosexuals. Women fit only for children, kitchen and place of worship. A supremacist ideology which considers all others to be untermensch / Infidel. A desire for a global Reich / Caliphate. The use of violence to achieve this.

    The BBC’s respect/admiration for Islam, which shares so many core beliefs with Nazism is more than a little perverse of course. If Islam was historically a white European ideology, the BBC would denounce it as racist/fascist supremacism.

    The vast majority of Muslims are not white Europeans though, hence the BBC’s support for a global viewpoint they would find repugnant if espoused by those with a different skin colour. Truly bizarre and high time the BBC was called out on this.

    My personal view is that the toy-town revolutionaries within the BBC support anything which is useful in destroying the Christian capitalist West, but I rather fear these leftist traitors have already lost control of their revolutionary pawns.

  • Ian.H Foster

    Al-Beebs Head of Relgiious Affairs is Muslim. Go figure

  • Fazal Khan

    Isn’t the story of Maalik Bin Dinaar a positive one?What is the objection to it?

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