Features

A new Islamist alliance among Syria’s rebels has given Assad the enemy he wants

Parts of northern Syria are already an Islamic emirate in the making

5 October 2013

5 October 2013

 

 Amman — Beirut — Istanbul

I recently bumped into a senior officer with the rebel Free Syrian Army who was waiting in the passport queue at the Turkish border. I didn’t recognise him at first, out of uniform and without his entourage, and I told him so. He was following the example of the 7th-century Second Caliph, Omar bin al Khattab, he replied. The caliph was so humble he took turns with his servant riding a horse to Jerusalem to receive the city’s surrender.

There was no imagery from Islamic history when I first met the officer a year ago. He was one of those ‘rebels’ western officials have in mind when they describe a ‘secular, moderate’ armed opposition. But more and more, rebels pepper their conversation with quotations from the Koran. With their lives on the line, perhaps people are turning to God. Perhaps, with the jihadis in the ascendant, such talk is politic. Later, the officer appeared on YouTube next to a notoriously bloodthirsty Chechen commander. ‘We kiss the hand that holds the trigger against Assad,’ he said.

It should not have been a surprise, therefore, when last week several FSA brigades issued ‘Communiqué No. 1’ announcing an alliance with the Nusra Front, al-Qa’eda’s Syrian subsidiary. The communiqué rejected the Syrian National Coalition, the SNC, the body promoted by London and Washington as the ‘sole legitimate representative’ of the Syrian people. It gave voice to the fighters’ deep and long-held contempt for the SNC’s exiled politicians, who have spent the past two years squabbling in five-star hotels as Syria burned. ‘If any of them come here,’ a rebel commander told me, ‘I will hang them.’

Subscribe from £1 per week


Most importantly, Communiqué No. 1 says the rebels are fighting not for democracy, but for Sharia, ‘the sole source of legislation’. It was signed by what is probably the FSA’s biggest brigade, with thousands of men, Tawheed, or ‘one God’. Its leader, Haji Marea, is the FSA’s commander for northern Syria. Balding, in his thirties, and with a mild manner that belies his reputation for bravery, he told me he was a ‘moderate Islamist’. ‘We stand for a tolerant Sharia, one that gives proper rights to all threads of the Syrian social fabric,’ he said.

Haji Marea sits on the FSA’s Supreme Military Council, the National Coalition’s military wing, also backed by western governments. It is not clear if he thinks he can remain on the council but in a sense that doesn’t matter. The FSA that London and Washington speak to has been revealed as a reassuring fiction, irrelevant to the real alliances on the ground, where most fighters believe they are waging a religious war. As well as the pact with the Nusra Front, Haji Marea has friendly relations with an even more extreme al-Qa’eda group, the Islamic State in Iraq and Syria, Isis. ‘Anybody against the regime is our ally,’ he said. ‘And Isis is fighting the regime.’

Everyone in rebel-held areas will tell you that the Islamists, of whichever stripe, are making gains because of the ‘secular’ FSA’s corruption and opportunism. That and the fact that most of the money and guns are going to the Islamists, sent by Qatar and Saudi Arabia. ‘Ali’ had been a flight attendant with Emirates before the war, living in Dubai and going to bars to pick up girls. Now he was in a Nusra Front brigade, he told me, but only because he thought they were really taking the battle to the regime. The emir of his group had banned smoking in line with Islamist doctrine. Ali would sneak outside for a crafty cigarette. He wasn’t an Islamist, he said, he just wanted Assad gone.

The bits of the FSA that continue to oppose Nusra and the Islamic State blame the West for their loss of power. ‘The Syrian people will welcome any support if the West continues to abandon us,’ the FSA’s commander for southern Syria, Abu Fadi, told me in Jordan. Abu Fadi said that, contrary to reports in the US newspapers, he had received almost no American help. None of his men had been trained in the camps that supposedly exist in Jordan. No weapons had been handed over. ‘We have had some new boots and jackets,’ he said with a snort. ‘That’s all.’

Isis and their satellites are still far from a majority but they have influence beyond their numbers. Public beheadings are now common in northern Syria. The BBC obtained pictures of one, the executioner dressed in black waving a severed head before a jubilant crowd.

Amid what the guidebooks call the ‘stylish and opulent’ surroundings of the Albergo hotel in Beirut, a western diplomat was briefing journalists. The room was all Persian rugs and wing-backed chairs. Waiters hovered. The official was his government’s main conduit to the Syrian rebels. I asked him what percentage of the rebels western countries could support: what percentage were not jihadis, not committing human rights abuses, looting or kidnapping — and were militarily effective?

There was a silence. Finally, he said: ‘Thirty per cent.’ It was a devastating admission. Then he paused and said he had been considering only the first three criteria. Adding in military effectiveness, you would have to say the West could support only 10 per cent.

Western diplomats are now scrambling to ensure that 10 per cent has at least the appearance of running the show. One official denied that Communiqué No. 1 represented an end to western illusions. ‘Any attempt to impose an authoritarian Islamist system on Syria by force will not lead to peace,’ he said. ‘Quite the reverse. And it will be rejected by the vast majority of Syrians.’

But parts of northern Syria are already an Islamic emirate in the making. All of the opposition-held areas are contested by shifting alliances of competing rebel groups, mostly Islamist in character. There are 1,200 armed groups, according to one estimate. Who is in charge varies not just from town to town, but from one street corner to the next. It is ‘Somalia on the Mediterranean’.

Is the Islamist alliance the end of the FSA — and the evisceration of western policy — that it seems to be? If so, there is one tiny shaft of light for western governments. The Islamist groups who signed the declaration, even the Nusra Front, say they are waging a holy war — but only in Syria: it is not a global jihad. That might be taken as an argument to support the moderate Islamists against the jihadists who want to use Syria as a base to export violence. Or it might be an argument to stay out of Syria altogether. Regardless, the regime now has the enemy it wants. And President Assad is looking stronger than ever.

Paul Wood is a BBC correspondent covering Syria.


More Spectator for less. Subscribe and receive 12 issues delivered for just £12, with full web and app access. Join us.

Show comments
  • jack

    I hope assad wins the war, restores peace and the lives of the syrian people…

    • abdul

      u idiot how can u support assad the butcherer, murderer who gassed his own people.
      look both assad n al qaeda are dogs but the vast majority of the fsa are people who want to get rid of tyranny

      • jb

        who did the gassing in early March 2013 according to the russian UN report dated july 2013?

  • Treebrain

    Brilliant article that proves that Assad was correct all song about the ‘rebels’, not Syrians wanting reform but Sunni Muslim fanatics wanting a sharia state.

    “Is the Islamist alliance the end of the FSA — and the evisceration of western policy — that it seems to be?”

    Yes, and the West can no longer deny the reality of the situation in Syria, it is a sectarian conflict and the ‘rebels’ are the people who killed the US ambassador in Libya and who oppose the West in Afghanistan.

    The West must now back Assad and Hezbollah or see another state follow the path of Somalia and Libya.

    • J Simson

      Hassan Nasrallah, has said: “If all the Jews gathered in Israel, it will save us the trouble of going after them worldwide. . . . It is an open war until the elimination of Israel and until the death of the last Jew on earth.”

      • Treebrain

        J Simson,

        You can continue to quote the words of extremists and fanatics as much as you wish, but that is not really a discussion or debate, is it, but rather just grandstanding?

        My comment was related to appreciation of the article itself, in particular the way in which it vindicates the position taken by President Assad.

        He is not combatting real Syrians who want reform and the typical values such as human rights, the rule of law and so forth, is he.

        He is an unwilling participant in a sectarian conflict that pits him and his allies against extremist Sunni Muslims who want to impose sharia law in an Islamist state, are controlled and funded by external states, include groups allied to al-Qaeda and ever increasing numbers of foreign jihadis.

        These groups have committed well documented atrocities against Syrian Christians but also against Alawites and moderate Sunni Muslims.

        The West should support Assad and his allies, not the rebels, after all they are the people who killed the US ambassador to Libya and are the enemy in Afghanistan.

        This conflict is not about the Jews in Syria, so your comment is hardly relevant?

        • Keith D

          Sadly these Saudi sponsored Salafists are feted and supported by the very man who is supposed to uphold the Constitution of the United States.Like me,I’m sure you saw this coming when his arselifting bowing antics in Saudi were beamed worldwide.

          Even more worryingly,Hilary,like good ole cigar smokin hubby Bill,has consistently demonstrated similar sympathies.

          We can only hope the GOP puts up a credible pro Western candidate next time.

        • Moa

          Treebrain, please go and read hadith Sahih Muslim 6985. The extermination of the Jews is extreme only in deed, it is *mainstream* Islamic doctrine.

          People like you tend to struggle with Google on this, so I’ll grab the second paragraph for you, and see if there is any ambiguity in the following:

          “Abu Huraira reported Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: The last hour would not come unless the Muslims will fight against the Jews and the Muslims would kill them until the Jews would hide themselves behind a stone or a tree and a stone or a tree would say: Muslim, or the servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me; come andkill him; but the tree Gharqad would not say, for it is the tree of the Jews.”

          This hadith (and plenty more like it in the Qur’an, ahadith and Sira) are what drives Iran to endure sanction pain to get nuclear weapons; it is what drives the Palestinian to slaughter Israelis in pizza restaurants; it is why Jewish girls in Zanzibar get acid on their faces.

          Before you make the usual excuses that such things are only due to the invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan and it would all go away if only the Israelis relocated to Iceland. That’s rubbish. Read the hadith again, it commands all pious Muslims to kill all Jews no matter where they are hiding. It was written before drones, before the re-enstatement of Israel, before the Zionist movement bought land in Ottoman Palestine, before America was founded, before the Magna Carter, and half a millenia *before* the Crusades.

          But just wait! there is bonus material too! the Jews are not the only one on the Islamic murder list. All non-Muslims are covered by Qur’anic Sura 9:5 and 9:29. Even if we think this is madness, and so do “moderate” Muslims (who are apostates and also, surprise!, on the Islamic kill list) what matters is that a significant proportion of the World’s Muslims believe it is their duty to subjigate all non-Muslims under the Islamic totalitarian political system.

          Read the Qur’an, hadiths and Sira – it is a litany of pure evil if you read it in the manner it is meant to be read.

          So, wouldn’t be be a good idea to stop your suicidal muddleheadedness and instead learn what the jihadis *actually believe* (not the whitewashed rubbish your jihad-apoligist media are feeding up) ?

          Don’t have wood for brains. Get smart. Islam has never intended to be equal to whatever philosophy you subscribe to – it intends to dominate and eventually supplaint all other systems with its imperialist and totalitarian political system.

          • Treebrain

            Moa,

            My original and subsequent comment are about the civil war in Syria, not about Jews.

            Like J Simson, your comment is simply not relevant.

          • Moa

            Nope, you still don’t get it. You use the words “extremists and fanatics”. It shows that *you* do not understand Islam nearly as well as you think you do.

            You see, there is a large problem in the West where people use weasel-words like “extremist”. That implies that there is some kind of (mythical) moderate Islam. I was merely showing how your poor use of language does not match up with Islamic doctrine at all.

            There are no “extremists”, everyone who uses this word is engaging in a deception. Similarly “terrorist” and “militant” are also words used for subtle misdirection. The correct word is “jihadi” and specifically those engaging in “jihad asghar” (not “jihad akhbar”).

            I hope you can reason why it is necessary to combat the inaccurate words you used (hopefully inadvertently). The media and posters like you using the wrong words is giving cover to jihadis. They will exploit any loophole to win in the Information Battlespace.

            Please use the correct term – you’ll be helping the fight against jihad if you do.

          • Treebrain

            Moa,

            Your misrepresentation and distortion let you down once again.

            There is nothing about the use of the word extremist as I used it that makes it a ‘weasel-word’.

            There ARE ‘moderate’ followers of Islam, they are not mythical and the point that you are trying to make is fatuous in the extreme.

            “It shows that *you* do not understand Islam nearly as well as you think you do.”

            I never claimed to ‘understand Islam’, I stated that the West should support the Assad regime, which is quite a different matter. What a pity that you cannot distinguish between the two?

          • Moa

            Treebrain please understand this important and very critical distinction:

            * The word “Muslims” means *people* that follow Islam or were born to parents who did.

            * The word “Islam” means a totalitarian, theocratic, political ideology – whose implementation is a cross between the Inquisition, National Socialsm and the Mafia.

            See the difference yet? one word is about people, the other is about an ideology.

            Muslims (people) may be pious (which means they may behead you) or “moderate” (which means they are civilized but technically non-Muslim – they are considered “apostates” by the pious and are required to be killed by Islam).

            Islam is never moderate. From a Western point of view it is always extreme. But you don’t have to take my words for it, you can take Turkey’s Prime Minister Tayyip Recep Erdogan’s instead.

            “Speaking at Kanal D TV’s Arena program, PM Erdogan commented on the term “moderate Islam”, often used in the West to describe AKP and said, ‘These descriptions are
            very ugly, it is offensive and an insult to our religion. There is no moderate or immoderate Islam. Islam is Islam and that’s it.”

            Source: Milliyet, Turkey, August 21, 2007”

            Citation:

            http://www.thememriblog.org/turkey/blog_personal/en/2595.htm

            It is important that the correct words be used. Saying “extremist” is a ploy that Islamic apologists used to confuse Westerners. This leads Westerners into making the mistake that if they somehow appease Islam it will be “moderate”. If we sacrifice Israel in appeasement, or progressively (pun intended) give into Sharia (as is happening in Britian).

            Please do not use the word “extremist” nor present any kind of argument that there is some kind of moderate Islam. No such thing exists but by reinforcing the false memes you are assisting Islamic evil.

            Please use the word “jihad” and “jihadi” instead. Note only are they the correct term, they also have the correct connotation in indicating that it is *mainstream* Islamic doctrine that is causing the chaos. Check here for the shocking statistics around the World (which most Westerners don’t know because our media do not report this to us, the truth is being obfuscated):
            http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/
            http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/index.html#Attacks

            Sorry to call you out on this, but you need to know that the phrases you (and of many others) use is helping the global jihad. We have to use the correct words so we identify the enemy of Enlightenment Civilization as Islam (the mafia-like political ideology), but not all Muslims (most of who are enslaved to Islam).

            Thanks.

          • Treebrain

            Moa,

            ‘moderate’ is an adjective I used about a particular group of Sunni Muslims based on their actions, not their religion, hence your comment is not only not accurate, it is also not relevant.

          • Moa

            Cool. You’re happy to provide cover to the jihadis. Well, you can’t say no-one ever pointed out what you were doing.

            Oh, and the words that are used are *very* relevant. That’s why the Left always uses memes and particular words to frame a debate – it is a massive boost to them.

          • Treebrain

            Moa,

            clearly you do not read my comments because I am not providing cover for jihadis at all.

            If you had been able to read and understand my comments, I argue in support of the Assad regime and its Hezbollah allies PRECISELY because they oppose the jihadis.

            The overthrow of the Gadaffhi regime has allowed the jihadis and al-Qaeda affiliates free rein in Libya which is why they were able to murder the US ambassador and his staff.

            This decision strengthened those in the US who also opposed military intervention, hence Obama backing down and Putin securing a clear diplomatic victory.

            Anyone who opposes the Assad regime is actually supporting jihadis, which is what this article is all about.

            Assad was right from the very start of the conflict, he was not fighting Syrian rebels who wanted human rights, democracy etc. but an alliance on Sunni Muslim extremists, al-Qaeda affiliates and foreign jihadis.

            As I said, support Assad and Hezbollah to help moderate Sunnis Muslims, Christians and others.

            This article proves that my original analysis of the conflict was correct, and clearly the majority of British MPs agreed, hence the failure to support the Cameron motion to bomb Assad regime targets in Syria.

          • Moa

            > “clearly you do not read my comments because I am not providing cover for jihadis at all.”

            Thanks for clarifying. I understand you do not mean to. Unfortunately you are repeating the “moderate Muslim” meme which is designed to induce confusion in Westerners.

            If you want to learn more about this meme I suggest you read the following sites for a week:
            http://gatesofvienna.net
            http://www.jihadwatch.org
            http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/

            You’ll learn what is really going on in Europe and Britain with regard to jihad, and the support of International Left for Muslim colonization (which they call ‘multiculturalism’, rather than the much more rational ‘multiethnism’ which would benefit the native population).

            If, after looking at the sites for a week you still think I’m full of it then please come back here and tell me I’m wrong. I promise I’ll listen to your criticism with an open mind.

            I’m trying to help you not fall into a trap. Sorry if I was harsh in my earlier comments. You clearly want to do the right thing.

          • Treebrain

            Moa,

            “Thanks for clarifying. I understand you do not mean to.”

            “Unfortunately you are repeating the “moderate Muslim” meme which is designed to induce confusion in Westerners.”

            You can patronise, preen and posture as much as you wish, that will not change the fact that there IS such a thing as a moderate Muslim person and a moderate Muslim state.

            These are the people that Obama is dealing with in Syria and Iran, and he is doing a good job of it so far.

            Syria is well on the way to having chemical WMD removed and Iran is close to reaching an agreement that would allow sanctions to be lifted, the nuclear energy programme to reach fruition and a return to the international community.

            You can continue to rail against Muslims, but meanwhile life goes on for the rest of us!

          • Moa

            > “IS such a thing as a moderate Muslim person and a moderate Muslim state.”

            So what? The number of “apostates” is not significant! It’s the jihadis that matter. And according to the latest Pew survey there are a *lot* of these. You only need a couple in your country to cause chaos – but there are tens of millions around the World, and a lot settling in your country where the average taxpayer gives them money. Lunacy!

            Hell, the US Delta team just snatched out of Somalia a jihadi that your Government gave asylum to. Britain has heaps of these guys. When there are enough of them they will act and subjugate you – pussies that you are. I mean, they can run down one of your soldiers, outside his barracks and cut his head off and say that Islam told them to do it, and your Prime Minister (a Tory no less) is so cowed that he claims that it “was not Islam”. You Brits are suicidal – no backbone at all.

            > “These are the people that Obama is dealing with in Syria and Iran, and he is doing a good job of it so far.”

            Hahahahahahaha! your idiocy just brought tears to my eyes. As the Americans say, that statement was “industrial grade stupid”. Even the massively Left biased New York Times (who wants to promote Obama) confessed “there are no good guys in Syria”. Obama wanted to bomb Syria to head off Iran (since he’s far too cowardly to confront it directly, despite the B.S. rhetoric he talks about). Obama has also been following the consistent Democrat policy of appeasing the Muslim Brotherhood by assisting them. The strongest combat component of the “Free Syrian Army” is Jabhat Al Nusra, a local branch of Al Qaeda. That’s why Senator Cruz came out with the quip that Obama intended to use US power as “The Al Qaeda Air Force” – and he was right. That’s why the US armed forces nearly mutinied, why 91% of the US population opposed Obama, and why Obama had *zero* allies going in to Syria (apart from some meaningless words from France, until they backed out too). Obama has done a terrible job. 14 million Egyptians took to the streets to overthrow Obama’s MB puppets and now the Egyptians *hate* Obama – that loser has ruined three decades of US relations with Egypt (not to mention selling out Poland and Romania on missile defense; leaking Israeli secrets all over the place; supporting Al Qaeda in Libya; surrendering Iraq when the US had won a hard victory; declaring that the US did not want victory in Afghanistan; getting his Ambassador killed in Benghazi and not helping; spying on his own citizens; letting the democratic Iranian Green Revolution down in 2009, and the list of ineptness goes on …)

            Then Obama was hoodwinked by Putin, who basically got a promise for the US not to attack Syria (which means it is only a matter of time until Assad and Iran win the war – unless something drastic changes). Russian forces also can help in Syria under the auspices of “helping destroy the chemical arms” – where Russians will be guarding all sorts of sites (although their snipers had already been active in Aleppo, according to rebel reports).

            > “Iran is close to reaching an agreement that would allow sanctions to be lifted, the nuclear energy programme to reach fruition and a return to the international community.”

            Hahahahaha! more idiocy. The Iranians are stalling for time. They nearly have the nuclear weapons they want. That’s why they were prepared to endure the sanctions – they kept their eye on the prize. And now they have the ballistic missiles to roast your wimpy little isle. And mugs like you allowed them to do it. Dumb dumb dumb. Perhaps that’s what delusional tree-for-brains muppets do to a country.

            > “You can continue to rail against Muslims, but meanwhile life goes on for the rest of us!”

            For a while at least. Demographics is destiny. You have one or two generations at most before the traditional English are a minority on your own country (like the Picts, or Gaels). Just like the Jutes, Angles and Saxons did you are being colonized – but because it is happening on a timescale longer than a week you simply don’t notice. Most of the subjects of your once-great nation have the attention spans and memory of goldfish (unlike the EDL, who can clearly see what is going on and don’t like the Islam supremacism and creeping Sharia that has already taken hold of places outside your personal bubble).

            It is a shame that the mother country of democracy and the Rule of Law is going away. You’re already a minority people in your capital. At current birth rates you’ll be a minority on your own country within a generation or two. Perhaps that’s a good thing, after all, Britain has now been “culturally enriched” by Female Genital Mutilation and other horrors, so perhaps it is for the best that your weak culture that does not stand up for Enlightenment Values is being bred out of existence. You are bequeathing your few descendants are far far worse Britain than the one your ancestors left for you. Bye Bye now.

          • Treebrain

            Moa,

            Careful now, the mask is starting to slip and reveal what lies beneath!

            Having tried to argue that there is no such thing as a ‘moderate’ Muslim and failed to do so, you now reply:

            “So, what?”

            Well, so your attempt the claim that the ‘moderate’ Muslim was a meme to fool the West has failed and been proven incorrect, that is what!

            “When there are enough of them they will act and subjugate you – pussies that you are. I mean, they can run down one of your soldiers, outside his barracks and cut his head off and say that Islam told them to do it, and your Prime Minister (a Tory no less) is so cowed that he claims that it “was not Islam”.

            Two points here, firstly you know little, if anything, of what you speak, the British military created the greatest Empire in the history of the world, so they are not pussies.

            Secondly, David Cameon was absolutely correct when he stated that it was not Islam that was responsible for the death of Lee R in Woolwich, it was a couple of cowards who ran a soldier over.

            Look at the current, unedifying spectacle in Israel for example, where the largest funeral in the history of the country saw half a million people turn up to revere and venerate Rabbi Ovadia Yosef.

            What were the values of this man, that goyim existed only to serve Jews who would live like a lord/effendi as a result? Who claimed that blacks were killed by Hurricane Katrina in a deliberate act by God, Arabs were snakes and deserved death, who was full of hatred for gays and claimed that women know only about sewing.

            Religious bigotry, racism, homophobia, misogyny, hate crimes, these are the measure of the man yet senior Israeli politicians rushed to his bedside and sing his praises in public!

            Mass hysteria in the streets of Israel as his hundreds of thousands of acolytes work themselves into a frenzy, what a spectacle for what claims to be a modern state!

            You then have the fascinating point to make about female genital mutilation but completely miss the point about the male genital mutilation carried out by Jews and muslims known as circumcision!

            Your comment is riddled with incomprehension, absence of logic and a total lack of understanding of contemporary British society concluding with the absurd concept that British culture is being bred out of existence!

            Do have a look at census data as to which culture is going to disappear first in the UK, you will find it is Jewish culture because the number of Jews is now 235,000, less than a half of one percent of the population!

            Marrying out and failing to remain active in Jewish social and religious life means that within two generations there will be so few Jews left in the UK you will be hard-pressed to find them!

            Now THAT is a genuine example of the ‘breeding out’ that you refer too!

          • Moa

            Got the measure of you now. Leftist anti-Semite.

            There is no such thing as a “moderate Muslim”. It is a Western construct. Islam (the ideology) sees them as “apostates”. That’s why there is continual chaos in the Islamic World. Of course you didn’t know this – you don’t know anything except what the taqiyya practicing deceivers tell you (and don’t you know, the Qur’an says repeatedly, “Allah is the greatest of deceivers”).

            > “Two points here, firstly you know little, if anything, of what you speak, the British military created the greatest Empire in the history of the world, so they are not pussies.”

            You are living in the past – the Empire expired seventy years ago. The British Army is a tough sword, but the political arm that wields it is weak and indecisive.

            > “Secondly, David Cameon was absolutely correct when he stated that it was not Islam that was responsible for the death of Lee R in Woolwich, it was a couple of cowards who ran a soldier over.”

            The delusion is strong in you Padawan. The attacker’s motivation was verses in the Qur’an. Now you and I may think this is supersitious nonsense (which it is), but that is irrelevant if the attackers believe it. Cameron was wrong – because he is a wimp afraid to stand up and say what Islam really says (according to Al Azhar university).

            You really don’t understand Islam at all, do you? I bet you’ve never even read the Qur’an and the hadiths that explain them. A normal person is horrified.

            > “Rabbi Ovadia Yosef”.

            We can agree here. This man’s views were disgusting. However, Israel is not what you think it is – it is a modern political state with views from all over the political spectrum – just like Britain. I don’t hold you personally responsible for Teresa May letting in Libyan jihadis for example, and I don’t think the political views of the evil BNP or UAF represent the Government’s position. So why do you equate the Israel Government’s position with that of a demagogue? oh, that’s right, you *want* to hate Israel.

            > “Do have a look at census data as to which culture is going to disappear first in the UK, you will find it is Jewish culture because the number of Jews is now 235,000, less than a half of one percent of the population!”

            Why is that? because you Europeans have failed to protect them. You’ve brought in Muslims and as a result the attacks against Jews have soared. Norway is now Jew free. In Sweden the Jews are regularly attacked. In France little Jewish children are slaughtered by Muslims (because hadith Sahih Muslim 6985 commands it – it is just as well most Muslims have never read the Qur’an and hadith, and don’t know the doctrine of abrogation). The Jews are anything but stupid. They’ve seen the same thing before – and people like you make excuses for it and only see what you want to see.

            > “You then have the fascinating point to make about female genital mutilation but completely miss the point about the male genital mutilation carried out by Jews and muslims known as circumcision!”

            I agree this is a disgusting practice – I am not condoning it in any way. However, it requires a special kind of barbarity to mutilate women as they do. Once upon a time the mutilation of women in this way never happened in the UK. Now it is relatively common. Why don’t you speak out about it? Why do you excuse it as a practice of “moderates” ?

            > “Now THAT is a genuine example of the ‘breeding out’ that you refer too!”

            This is the real mask slipping. You are gloating that a law-abiding minority has been hounded out of your country. That’s just racist and evil.

            Back to demographics, take a look at your immigration rate (decreased from when that b!tch Immigration Minister Barbara Roche deliberately let in all-and-sundry from 2001 onwards – Google it). Now take a look at the native population birth rate and compare it to the birth rate of the immigrants. Do the math (it’s an exponential law). If nothing changes what do you think is going to happen? Hint: if you can’t do the math, the Muslim population grew at a rate of 10 times faster than the non-Muslim population (now at around 5%; when they reach around 10% you are in real trouble). The Muslims are already demanding special treatment, have parallel courts, have hundreds of rape gangs (sanctioned under Islamic doctrine) and just today is a report that 18 British mosques will allow under-age marriage (like Mohammed, who “married” six year old Aisha and consumated it at 9 lunar years [8 of our solar years]). That’s not counting all the *slaves* he kept and raped, and how he forced his adopted son to divorce so Mohammed could have his *daughter-in-law* (which is why Islam does not recognize adoption). This barbarity is what you are trying to cover with the false euphemism “moderate”, and you are giving it cover as it infiltrates your country. In the days of the British Empire that you gloat about this was called “treason” – but Cultural Marxism has fed you sheep agitprop for so long you now think that promoting quaint ethnic Sharia over Enlightenment Values is not a vice but a virtue. As I said before, lunacy!

          • Treebrain

            Moa,

            “Got the measure of you now. Leftist anti-Semite.”

            Oh dear, Moa, you cannot say that you were not warned, can you!

            You were told earlier to be careful because the mask was slipping and revealing what lay underneath.

            Rather than heed that caution you continued along the oh, so familiar path and have now been revealed in your true colours!

            Originally posing as a an ordinary participant in this thread you have slowly lost the veneer of respectability and credibility as you failed to win the argument. The traditional pattern of insult, personal abuse, ad hominem attack and so forth has been clearly followed, ending with the coup de grace, the accusation of anti-Semitism.

            Of course, like so, so many who make this slur, when challenged, you are unable to prove the allegation but then that is only to be expected, you are using the term to abuse and defame, not as a true reflection of the situation!

            Naturally you remain ignorant of the cumulative impact that people like yourself have, by using the term incorrectly you are just like the boy who cried wolf, an attention seeker.

            You disparage genuine Holocaust victims by abusing the term, and diminish its impact by such false usage. By the time the term can be employed correctly, it will have lost its meaning.

            Either support your claim that I am an anti-Semite or apologise and withdraw it!!

          • Moa

            Your last statement of your previous post was positively gloating over the Jews departing from Britain.

            Your rancid refusal to acknowledge Islamic scripture even when quoted to you (and you clearly have *zero* idea about) is also a big hint.

            Then there is your association of one Jewish bigot’s opinion with the entire population of a democratic State is another.

            Actually you lost the debate several posts ago. I have provided scripture and many references, which it appears you never checked. You have no counter argument and no counter facts. Of course, because you actually know *nothing* about Islamic doctrine as the scholars at Al Azhar understand it.

            You have not been able to provide any evidence that any mosque teaches a programmed against jihad. Why is that? surely even your treebrain could connect the dots as to why mosques do not teach that jihadi is un-Islamic (as Cameron claimed in his gross idiocy, that you also subscribe to).

            But hey, you get a bonus. Not only did you lose the “debate” (not really, you had no counter-facts to present, just some false assertions that only “useful idiots” parrot as they’ve been indoctrinated to do) but as a bonus you are also losing your culture and country. Like I said, simply do the math (although you’re probably just as crap as that too).

          • Treebrain

            Moa,

            So you have no ACTUAL evidence of me being an anti-Semite at all, just as predicted.

            Simply because I made reference to demographics in the UK based on census data, you conflate that into anti-Semitism?

            On that basis former Chief Rabbi Jonathan Sacks would be an anti-Semite because he has written countless books and articles on the topic, has he not!

            Failure to defend or refute certain Muslim quotes you made is also not an adequate basis to define a person as an anti-Semite, at least not by any rational or logical basis.

            “…is your association of one Jewish bigot’s opinion with the entire population of a democratic State is another.”

            It is hardly anti-Semitic to quote the views of one of the leading religious and political figures in Israel, is it? After all, however distasteful you may find his statements, clearly a very, very large number in Israel and abroad did not hence his funeral being the largest ever held in Israel, and the fact that the likes of Netanyahu and Peres praised him so highly shows clearly that both the masses and senior political figures bought into his vision!

            So in conclusion, like so many others of a certain ilk, you have used the old canard of anti-Semite against someone who did not agree with your views and, when challenged, could not validate the accusation.

            Thought so!!

          • Moa

            > “Simply because I made reference to demographics in the UK based on census data, you conflate that into anti-Semitism?”

            I mentioned the demographics of Britain. Your statements were clearly gloating about the departure of Jews (which is due to the rising anti-Semitism in Britain, mostly from you other migrants).

            > “On that basis former Chief Rabbi Jonathan Sacks would be an anti-Semite because he has written countless books and articles on the topic, has he not!”

            People can be self-loathing with regard to the culture and ethnicity. There are many Americans who are *very* anti-American, for example. There are many American ethnic Jews who are very anti-Israeli and anti-(religious)-Jew, is another example. There are blacks who hate their own ethnicity. “anti-Semitism” is the current term used to demote hatred of Jews.

            Yes, yes, you can be pedantic and say that because you may love Palestinians (for example) and they are Semitic then you cannot be an “anti-Semite”. Logically this is true based on the ethnic definition, but this is false based on the usual meaning of the phrase.

            > “It is hardly anti-Semitic to quote the views of one of the leading religious and political figures in Israel, is it? ”

            My point is, you hold the Israelis to a different standard than other races. If the Russian patriarch came out with insane statements then you’d never even think to taint all Russians with that view. Yes, the Rabbi you mention has a popular following – still doesn’t make it the Government nor even majority view of Israelis.

            Contrast this with the call to genocide by the Muslim Arabs of the West Bank. That is the mainstream view by far, and there are only a few sane voices that are drowned out by the mob. Anyone against the calls for jihad tends to either disappear – or be tortured to death by being dragged behind motorbikes very publicly in Gaza.

            With regard to Assad and Syria. The West should stay out. There are no good guys. Assad is better than Al Nusra, but he is still a complete monster with regard to slaughtering his citizens.

            Let’s not go into your delusional support for Obama. He is a disaster in many regards. His poll numbers in the US are plummeting (even the Low Information Voters are waking up to the reality). You thinking he’s a great guy and doing well with Syria and Iran is laughable – just shows how little you know about what is really going on.

            With regard to the original point of this debate. Please don’t use the word “moderate Muslim”. It provides cover to jihadis because it introduces false connotations in the minds of Westerners (as the meme was designed to do).

          • Treebrain

            Moa,

            Yet more falsehoods:

            “Your statements were clearly gloating about the departure of Jews (which is due to the rising anti-Semitism in Britain, mostly from you other migrants).”

            The departure of members of the Jewish community from the UK is not something I mentioned in my comment, but it does take place. Unfortunately for you and your hypothesis, this is not due to hostility from others at all, it is because they wish to make aliyah (do try not to confuse this with the US pop star Aaliyah!).

            “My point is, you hold the Israelis to a different standard than other races.”

            Groan,surely not this tired old cliche again? People are triying to hold Israel to account by common standards of decency and internationally accepted standards of behaviour, the application of the rule of law, human rights and the like, nothing more and nothing less.

            Rabbi Yosef had a funeral that was the largest ever held in Israel so clearly he was popular with a great number of people in Israel.

            The fact that both the Prime Minister and the President felt no shame in publicly lauding this homophobic, racist, sectarian, misogynistic who even managed to insult Holocaust victims gives great insight into the values of large numbers of Israelis and the political establishment and goes a long way to making their values clear to all.

            I never claimed that the majority of Israelis agreed with him, but what is so shocking is how so few failed to speak out against his poisonous pronouncements.

            “Let’s not go into your delusional support for Obama”

            Once again, you put words in my mouth, I was never a ‘supporter’ of Obama although I do happen to support certain of his policies, especially with regard to seeking a military solution to the nuclear situation in Iran, rather than a military one.

            There is nothing ‘delusional’ about Obama, and his tactics including ‘Operation Desert Schmooze’ are bearing fruit as now the UK is following his lead and is also thawing relations with Iran, leading immediately to the appointment of a charge d’affaires with a view to “including interim steps on the way towards the eventual reopening of both our embassies”.

            Clearly diplomacy is triumphing and an agreement will soon be reached to lift sanctions, allow Iran to become a nuclear power and rejoin the international community.

            Who would possibly not be heartened by such events as war is avoided and peace breaks out??

          • Moa

            > “Groan,surely not this tired old cliche again? People are triying to hold Israel to account by common standards of decency and internationally accepted standards of behaviour, the application of the rule of law, human rights and the like, nothing more and nothing less.”

            Then why do you not hold the Arab Palestinians to the same standard? why can their *entire* modus operandi be *war crimes* yet folks like you obsess about what Israel does do and does not do. You ignore the fact that Israel poured millions into the Delilah missile system to spare Palestinian lives. You ignore the fact that the Israelis warn civilians to get out of the buildings that Hamas is launching rockets from before they strike. You ignore the fact that Hamas uses bunkers exclusively for men and munitions, it shoots civilians who try and enter when they are launching rockets – they want the Israelis to kill civilians. You ignore the whole “Pallywood” propaganda scene where the Palestinians lie continuously (eg. the famous “dead men on stretcher” videos where the dead men fall off the stretcher and get back on it), or the BBC splashing dead children that were killed by Palestinian rockets, not Israeli missiles.

            So no, you are full of cr@p. You hold the Israelis to a totally different standard than you hold the Palestinians.

            > “There is nothing ‘delusional’ about Obama, and his tactics including ‘Operation Desert Schmooze’ are bearing fruit as now the UK is following his lead and is also thawing relations with Iran,”

            You are completely delusional. Iran have been gloating over how they fooled what Lenin called “Useful Idiots” like you in the West:
            http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Peace/2013/10/08/Iran-s-Rouhani-Boasted-in-May-of-Lying-About-Nuclear-Program

            John Bolton is a hawk, but he’s been in the game a long time and knows far more than you or Obama:
            http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Peace/2013/10/08/Exclusive-Bolton-Iran-Nuclear-Proposal-Complete-Bullsh

            > “Who would possibly not be heartened by such events as war is avoided and peace breaks out??”

            You sound *exactly* like Neville Chamberlain. “Peace at any price” will not bring peace – it will bring slavery and death. Like I said, you are a pussy. You don’t believe in defending Enlightenment Culture against a theocracy that states *daily* that it wants to destroy the US, Israel and the West. That makes you immoral.

            The peace to seek is a peace through victory – Iran without nuclear weapons. If that can be achieved without resorting to force then it would be better. If it cannot be achieved without the use of force then force must be used.

            As Netanyahu pointed out, the Iranians have planned or conducted 25 attacks on five continents in three years (and the Iranians were caught in Thailand, so there is no question who was behind this). Do you really think this will go down when they have their nuclear umbrella?

            And here is your own MI5 chief warning you of what is coming. Ignore it at your own peril. Feel safe in a Westgate Mall? I’m sure the people in Nairobi did too:
            http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-24454596

          • Treebrain

            “… yet folks like you obsess about what Israel does do and does not do.”

            Here we go once more, any comment about Israel that is not in accord with a pro-Israel, right-wing, Zionist line is labelled ‘an obsession’ in a lazy and careless attempt to dismiss valid points.

            In actual fact, if you had read the article, most interest in the Middle East is not currently about Israel or the Palestinians, it is about Syria and Iran!

            People are fascinated in seeing how the Assad regime recruited Hezbollah allies to turn the tide of the civil war and beat back the ‘rebels’.

            They are interested to see the speed with which Syria agreed to allow destruction of all chemical WMD. They delight to see the praise from Kerry for the Syrian reaction.

            With all chemical weapons out of commission, Assad can no longer be accused of using them against his own people.

            Russia has scored a great diplomatic coup as the west has been dissuaded from military intervention.

            Over in Iran, Operation Dessert Schmooze bears fruit as the secret US-Iran negotiations were revealed to a stunned world and there is talk of a deal within weeks or months.

            Meanwhile the UK is following the US lead and reestablishing diplomatic links with Iran.

            Before we know it IAEA inspectors will be in Iran, Iran will have a nuclear energy industry, sanctions will be lifted and Iran will rejoin the international community.

            What a wonderful result in both countries!

          • Moa

            You asked why you are an anti-Semite. You completely missed the fact that you hold Israel to different standards. You simply ignore that inconvenient truth in your answers.

            > “People are fascinated in seeing how the Assad regime recruited Hezbollah allies to turn the tide of the civil war and beat back the ‘rebels’.”

            What people are these? those that love seeing Syrian civilians killed? both sides are evil in Syria – which is why your advocacy of supporting Assad is also evil.

            > “They are interested to see the speed with which Syria agreed to allow destruction of all chemical WMD. ”

            Agreeing is one thing. Having it happen is another – especially if the Russians have their hand in what actually happens.

            > “Russia has scored a great diplomatic coup as the west has been dissuaded from military intervention.”

            I said this a couple of posts back. Obama is so inept he was backed into a corner through his own stupid words.

            > “Over in Iran, Operation Dessert Schmooze bears fruit as the secret US-Iran negotiations were revealed to a stunned world and there is talk of a deal within weeks or months.”

            Lol. The Iranians are so close to nuclear breakout that’s all the time they need. They string you along, just as they’ve been stringing the pansies of the world along for 15 years.

            > “Before we know it IAEA inspectors will be in Iran, Iran will have a nuclear energy industry, sanctions will be lifted and Iran will rejoin the international community.”

            We shall see.

            Have you read Kenneth M. Poilack’s book, “Unthinkable: Iran, the Bomb, and American Strategy” yet ? I’m well through it.

          • Treebrain

            Moa,

            “You asked why you are an anti-Semite. You completely missed the fact that you hold Israel to different standards.”

            Once again, you demean the term anti-Semite by using it incorrectly.

            Holding Israel to the internationally accepted norms of conduct does NOT make anyone an anti-Semite.

            Do you even understand the difference between anti-Semitism, opposition to Zionism or protest against the actions of the state of Israel?

            You are repeatedly confusing the three and undermining your own credibility by constantly labelling me an anti-Semite but, when challenged, being unable to validate your accusation!

            “They string you along, just as they’ve been stringing the pansies of the world along for 15 years.”

            Who are these ‘pansies’ that you refer to?

            Pansy is an old word used as a term of abuse, is homophobia one of your issues.

            Perhaps you really are a disciple of Rabbi Ovadia Yosef, he was insulting and derogatory about homosexuals as well:

            As for gays and lesbians, he said they were “completely evil.”

          • Moa

            > “Holding Israel to the internationally accepted norms of conduct does NOT make anyone an anti-Semite.”

            Correct. Holding Israel to these standards while completely ignoring the Palestinian atrocities does make you an anti-Semite. I fail to see how you cannot grok such a simple concept.

            > “Do you even understand the difference between anti-Semitism, opposition to Zionism or protest against the actions of the state of Israel?”

            Yes, I understand the distinction very well, thank you. That’s why I feel able to assess your type and level of bias.

            > “Pansy is an old word used as a term of abuse, is homophobia one of your issues.”

            Nope. Stop trying to deflect (of course you do this, since you cannot argue against the facts I presented about Iran and your own MI5 chief warning what is likely to happen to the UK).

            But let us just imagine if I was actually against homosexuality (which is not the same as the word “homophobia” which is a clinical condition – although it is a weasel word that Leftists like to throw about when they have no logical argument to defeat facts presented to them). Say I was against homosexuality and decided to voice my opinion. Do you have a problem with that? If so, then you are an authoritarian (if not totalitarian) who opposes the Enlightenment Value of Free Speech. So, what is it?

            > “Perhaps you really are a disciple of Rabbi Ovadia Yosef, he was insulting and derogatory about homosexuals as well:”

            More casting around instead of actually coming up with a logical and coherent argument that could possibly refute the references I presented. Again you fail and thus, attempt to deflect rather than face the cognitive dissonance in your delusional position.

            > “As for gays and lesbians, he said they were “completely evil.””

            As his is right if you believe in Free Speech. Personally I don’t agree with that madman, but I do agree with Free Speech – unlike hypocritical totalitarians like yourself that dictate what others may think. You can jam your Marxist Political Correctness right in your gulag.

          • Treebrain

            Moa,

            “Holding Israel to these standards while completely ignoring the Palestinian atrocities does make you an anti-Semite.”

            No, Moa, it quite simply does not, any more than failing to answer a question about Iran or Egypt makes someone an anti-Semite!

            By continuing to use this phrase as a term of abuse rather than in a proper context you debase and demean it and rob it of its true meaning.

            Having failed to prove any acceptable criteria for anti-Semitism either retract your accusation or shut up!

          • Moa

            Ok, I’ll bite. Why do you hold the Palestinians to a lower standard of behavior than the Israelis?

            Why do you hold the Iranians to a lower standard, despite decades of terror against innocents, and the aforementioned 25 attacks in the last three years?

            Why do you think Western forces and taxes should be used to prop up Assad as he continues his father’s legacy by murdering tens of thousands of citizens? but think that Israel is a rogue state due to Free Speech statements made by non-Government citizens (and thus unworthy of support).

            > “or shut up!”

            The totalitarian coming out of you.

          • ganef_returns

            Moa

            Ignore Treebrain, the d*ckhead – look at his avatar. He is a lonely old man who sits at his computer all day long spewing out his “opinions” on a wide range of subjects he considers himself to be an expert on. Like here, he will take any and every opportunity to divert the subject matter away from the actual article and discuss the Jews and Israel.

            He is old, unmarried with no friends and half-blind. His current obsession seems to race to 10,000 postings with a considerable number on his pet subject, previously mentioned. Take my advice, do not bother to engage him in discussion, he simply isn’t worth it.

          • Moa

            Thank you very much Ganef for the heads-up. I will take your good advice.

            As they say, “In a battle of wits, never fight an unarmed opponent”. The guy knows some things, but not nearly half as much as he imagines he does.

            Cheers!

            ps. did you know that “Ganef” is the NATO reporting name for the SA-4 system? that’s what popped into my head when I saw your nick :)

          • ganef_returns

            No I didn’t but I am quite surprised at them using it.

          • Treebrain

            ganef,

            Clearly Moa is NOT able to take your advice.

            Like so many others before him he has run out of arguments so has followed the familiar pattern of personal abuse, ad hominem attack and the usual coup de grace, resorted to ‘anti-semitism!

            Of course, when challenged he is unable to prove it, so sadly, we once again witness the term being demeaned and degraded by misuse so when it is finally used correctly it has lost its impact!

          • abdul

            u idiot i am a muslim bt islam doesnt teach muslims 2 kill non muslims. u r lying .
            islam teaches careness, peace n tolerance n 2 bring non-muslims in2 the fold of islam thru peaceful means.
            u r a muslim hater thats y u r saying anti-muslim rhetrotic.

          • Moa

            abdul – it means “slave”. You are a slave to Islam.

            While Muslims practice “al taqiyya” against non-Muslims they also practice it hugely against Muslims too. That way they enslave you to do the evil will of Islam. After all, the Qur’an affirms that “Allah is the greatest of deceivers” many many times.

            > “islam teaches careness, peace n tolerance n 2 bring non-muslims in2 the fold of islam thru peaceful means”

            No it doesn’t. Look at the clear evil of hadith Sahih Muslim 6985 that calls for genocide against Jews no matter where they hide in the World. Islam is evil !

            Look at Qur’an Sura 9:5 and 9:29 and the evil it commands in subjugating all non-Muslims. Islam is evil !

            Look at all the continuous tirade of insults to non-Muslims throughout the Qur’an, hadith and Sira. Islam is evil !

            Learn about the doctrine of “abrogation”. It means all the nice verses of the Qur’an have been replaced by evil ones.

            > “u r a muslim hater thats y u r saying anti-muslim rhetrotic.”

            False! I hate *Islam* which is an evil totalitarian political ideology.

            I *like* Muslims, who are good people *despite* the brainwashing and genocidal commandments of Islam.

            In case you are confused about this here is an analogy:

            1) Muslims = people, just like the Germans

            2) Islam = evil ideology, just like National Socialism (Nazis) or Soviet Socialism

            => I can like Germans but hate the evil and murderous ideology of “Naziism” (National Socialism)

            => I can like Russians but hate the evil and murderous ideology of Communism (Soviet Socialism)

            => I can like Muslims but hate the evil and barbaric ideologies of Islam and Sharia.

            See how it works?

            Sounds like you don’t know much about real Islamic doctrine. Your probably don’t know half the crimes that Mohammed the evil warlord committed on his neighbours and the *slaves* he kept. If you want to learn more about Islam rather than the lies you (and me) have been fed then you can do some research here:
            http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Main_Page

            Want to see what Mohammed was really like instead of the whitewashed nonsense people get fed?
            http://wikiislam.net/wiki/List_of_Killings_Ordered_or_Supported_by_Muhammad

            Want to see what Islam is really like around the World?
            http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/
            http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/index.html#Attacks

            I don’t hate you abdul, I want you and all your fellow Muslims to choose to stay or leave Islam based on knowledge of *reality* and not the lies (taqiyya, kitman, muruna and tawriya) that islamic supremacists have been teaching to enslave your mind.

            You are being lied to abdul. I’m trying to show you the truth about Islam.

        • stephen rothbart

          The West missed their chance to influence the moderates, and now the bearded loonies have taken over the asylum.

          But to say the West should support Assad and Hezbollah shows you understood nothing.

          The West should now just stay out, and I hope it will.

          If President Obama can draw himself away from such important matters as whether the Washington Redskins should change their name and actually be a President, then he should be increasing sanctions on Iran and bringing Assad’s ally to its knees.

          The Iranians have no interest in peace with the West and already the Supreme Leader is playing games of peek a boo with Obama. He is being conned and sadly, he probably does not even see it.

          So sad that in these dangerous days for the world, we have such pygmies in charge of our governments.

          But as for you, what you just wrote is like saying, that since Stalin is a dangerous man, we should support Hitler.

          • Treebrain

            rothbart,

            “But to say the West should support Assad and Hezbollah shows you understood nothing.”

            Not at all, I merely think that allowing yet another secular Arab regime to collapse, as the Saddam regime and the Gadadffi regime bid, causing a failed state, massive civilian deaths and millions of refugrees is not a good think.

            Even worse, extremist sectarian groups and terrorists linked to al-Qaeda then flourish. Somalia is not an Arab state, but similar problems exist there too.

            As for Iran, sanctions have served their pose, Iran is now willing to negotiate, Rouhani said a deal could be reached in as little as twelve weeks.

            Not bombing Syria plus the survival of the Assad regime AND a deal with Iran to end sanctions, allow a nuclear energy program and welcome Iran back into the international community are all real and genuine achievements that show why Obama deserved the Nobel Peace Prize.

    • Fred Scuttle

      Oh well, if they are Muslims that makes firebombing schools and hospitals perfectly fine then.

      • Treebrain

        Fred Scuttle,

        Did you not know that BOTH sides in the Syrian civil war are Muslims, it is just that they come from different sects. The alewite sect led by President Assad is fighting against the Sunni Muslims, hence why the conflict has come to resemble a sectarian war rather than a simple civil war.
        The Hezbollah allies of President Assad are Shia Muslims.

        It is the extremist Sunni Muslim rebels who are murdering alawites, moderate Sunni Muslims and Christians.

        • Fred Scuttle

          I meant it was perfectly acceptable behaviour for Muslims. I can see it can be taken in two ways.

        • Moa

          I think you missed the witty sarcasm there woodforbrains.

          • Treebrain

            Moa,

            Please try to write something relevant, interesting or informative next time?

            Your comment on my avatar name is neither clever or funny and most certainly not original!

            It merely demonstrates your lack of erudition and the fact that you cannot understand what the avatar name actually means only serves to underscore your ignorance!

        • abdul

          dont u remember assads alawite dogs murdering innocent sunnis when the revolution started in homs, houla when the shabiha dogs murdered innocent people.
          have u 4gotten assad gassing his own people.

          • Treebrain

            abdul,

            Quite correct, I do not remember either Assad or the Alawites as ‘dogs’ at all!

            As for the claim that Assad gassed his own people, that remains only an allegation unlike the fact that Saddam Hussein used poison gas against the Iranians causing at least 50,000 fatalities in the Iran-Iraq war and that did not prevent the West supporting throughout hat conflict and afterwards for many years, did it?

  • Peter Stroud

    Yet these were the people that Cameron and Hague wanted to arm. Perhaps they should read this and the article, also in this edition of the Spectator, on the persecution of Christians.

  • victor67

    The Israeli’s still see the Shia axis of Iran, Syria and Hezbullah as a greater threat and the defeat of Assad is the greater prize as it dismantles that.
    They feel the Sunni Jihadi’s can be contained and mayhem in Syria serves their interests.

    • Shazza

      Israelis. Not Israeli’s. Jihadis. Not Jihadi’s. No need for apostrophe when employing an s to denote a plural. FFS. It’s not rocket science.

  • D T

    And the West must support the Syrian Army to fight those ignorant and dangerouw people.

    • Moa

      Nope. The Russians and Iranians are doing that.

      The West has its own problems. It is currently being colonized through mass immigration and high birth rates by those whose ideology is similar to Assad’s foes.

      The Syria intervention is a distraction, so you never look what is happening in Britain. Your kids have *no choice* but to get halal food in their school lunches. You have *hundreds* of Muslim gangs conducting rape jihad against your vulnerable young women, you have gangs going around harassing people for their style of dress and drinking beer, you have your soldiers run down and behaded in the street – and your Prime Minister comes out with a whole bunch of lies about what is going on. Then you have the 85+ Sharia Courts already operating in Britain.

      Meanwhile, the popular movement EDL that asserts equal and traditional rights for all citizens (including those originally born in Britiain) is demonized as “fascist” by the UAF (the real fascists). And all the muppet Britons go along with this.

      You are losing your country because you dudes lap up the Cultural Marxism fed to you by the BBC and the universities. But hey, I guess that is simply cultural darwinism in action. Bye bye Britiain – gone from Churchill back to a population of Neville Chamberlains in a mere 60 years.

      • D T

        Assad has is demonetized enemy now in total….what started in Aleppo back in October 2012 with some suicide bomb attacks now have been taken over the situation in their hands and that benefits Assad.
        I agree in total to your other conclusions, in my country also there is a severe immigrant problem in numbers but situation started to improved now simply because they dont let them pass to the rest of the EU countries free but put them in guarded hospitality centres until they send them back to their countries.
        Switzerland put the limit with low in 5% for immigrants, i think France, Britain and Germany must do that the soon as possible and a central EU service for exporting back the immigrants to their countries must start.

  • Bonkim

    Saudi Arabia, and Qatar will keep supplying regardless of the West’s indecision – the time to hit Assad has gone and Syrians will have to sort themselves out and break up in the process – there will be no winners, tens of thousand dead and millions of Syrians refugees. Tragedy all round but Assad’s side will self-destruct soon as the Syria’s official economy is fast descending into the abyss.

    • D T

      After the strike issue was averted the Syrian pound immediately gain ground and stabilized at apx 170SYP to 1$. That rate the time before the Strike scale up to almost 300SYP. Beyond that Damascus close all foreign exchange offices and arrested the perpetrators who sell the SYP to low against the $ in order to gain profit and open state foreign exchange offices.
      Even in the middle of the war Syria is proving day by day that they are governed by a elite of politicians who are capable to face with the best way possible the problems of the people and the economy.

      • Bonkim

        From Asia times
        Syria’s looming economic disaster By Artem Perminov

        KRASNODAR, Russia – While government forces are still fighting the opposition in Syria, the economic and financial state of Bashar al-Assad’s regime is continuing to deteriorate. The devastating civil war has put the country’s economy at the edge of collapse.

        The closure of factories, disrupted communications, rising unemployment, a growing shadow economy, prices increases, and a serious shortage of many vital goods and services have
        accompanied the upheaval in Syria. Since government resources are being depleted, the economic implications of the Syrian crisis work against Assad’s regime in the long run.

        Exchange rates mean little as it is controlled by the state.

        • D T

          The government is receiving unlimited credit from Russia and especially Iran to hold on for ever. There is a growing stability in government control areas comparing to the chaos in rebel held areas. This is the main clue that averted public support to ignorance after the Qaeda factions made clear to the general public their intentions and their ID.

          • Bonkim

            Russia and Iran will call their debt at an opportune time – and such tyrants always end up at the receiving end when they pass their sell by date. It is just a matter of time.

          • D T

            Their motives are political in supporting the regime. Future has a lot secrets i think and especially in Syria i keep my restrictions in future forecasts and wondering if in the end Assad will become the saver of Syria from jihadists and other islamists ignorants who are mostly foreign backed and foreign invaders there.

  • I_Go_Pogo

    Obama on Syria : (previously posted by another):

    Well, let me be clear. My goals in Syria are manifest, and involve establishing the principle that the use of chemical weapons against civilians won’t be tolerated, and that any regime that does so risks strong rebuke by the international community, backed by a variety of diplomatic tools we can bring to bear, including the empty threat of force. As we comply with Assad’s demands, we’re teaching by example that he must comply with our demands, if and when we make them. He can be under no illusions that we mean what we say, even when we’re not sure what we just said, and when the international community draws a red line, no one, not even me, should cross it.

    That is why, to avoid crossing the red line of responding militarily to the use of chemical weapons, I have accepted the Russian proposal to instead pursue a diplomatic course that will see Assad’s regime stripped of their chemical weapons capability but reinforced with Russian equipment and personnel under UN auspices. But make no mistake. If Assad fails to comply with the provisions of the agreement, I reserve the right to threaten to strike targets occupied by all the UN observers and security forces I’d sent in, before I realize how stupid that sounds.

    Let me also reassure the American public and the world community that we have set very strict guidelines for compliance, including firm deadlines on the destruction of the Assad regime’s chemical weapons in a highly complex big government engineering program, run by foreigners, and overseen by cadres of the international community’s best poly sci graduates. Failure is not an option, which is why it will take as long as it takes, or we’ll threaten to alternately increase or decrease spending on it, as the situation requires, unless the Russians veto it.

    We have also insisted on frequent progress reports, and my future actions will be based entirely on what the UN committee’s intern writes up, based on the findings of the committee chair, based on what his lawyer relayed about what the inspectors heard from the Russian engineers.

    Make no mistake, I will act forcefully if the Assad regime drags their heels, creating stumbling blocks like not having fresh towels at the hotels where the UN inspection teams will be living for years, starting families, and becoming part of everyday Syrian life. Meanwhile, I’ve signed an executive order permitting myself to send weapons to the rebels, who will shoot at those hotels, interrupting towel service to remind the inspectors not to get too comfortable in their cushy UN shovel-ready jobs.

    Some critics have said our Syria policy doesn’t make sense, but our policy is the result of a well-considered, multifaceted, multidimensional approach, combining pointless threats, diplomatic incompetence, confusion about our goals, indecision about which side of the civil war should win, uncertainty about who should lead Syria in the future, and questions about whether the US should have any role in the region at all. These questions are complex, and so are our answers. So where others see confusion, I see sophistication, and it’s sophistry to claim otherwise.

    Our goals in Syria are clear, and this exceptional nation will achieve them.

    Thank you.

  • Paul Armstong

    the mahdi has gordon holed up again. getting tired of saudi kings paying bandits to kill canadians, australians, new zealanders, and other none believers . time to find the enemy and bring some peace the middle east

  • K. C. Mehmet

    1200 different armed fractions ha? When this number was not higher than 50 and FSA held the upper hand, US refused to resort to so-callled moderate-booster option, that is arming the secular and mildly islamist rebels. Then came the Russians and Iranians, turning upside down this option and backing and supporting the brutal regime in every form thus pitting the balance against the rebels. If islamic groups across the country are increasingly gaining ground, this is the hell scenario you created.

  • http://www.figurewizard.com/ figurewizard

    It should not be forgotten that the enemy that Assad wants happens to be the enemy that the rest of us do not want. Putin did the West a great service when he threw his spanner into the proposal to launch an air assault against Syria.

  • allymax bruce

    Why is it these ‘British Jihadis’, can go to a forgeign country, get a gun, and start murdering citizens of a foreign country, then come back to ‘Britian’, and not be prosecuted for their evil murders abroad?
    Why hasn’t anybody flagged this up before?

  • Graeme S

    We either support a Brutal Anti – Western Dictator or We support the head sawing off savages who eat people…… What a choice

  • Agrippina

    Leave them to fight it out, nothing to do with the West. Insist via the UN that Saudi, Kuwait, Qatar and UAE accept muslim refugees from Syria as they can easily afford to do so. Odd how they never take any of the refugees but happy to supply arms and money to keep the carnage going. Cancel the passports of Brits out there, they are no longer welcome here.

    Saudi’s content to spread the muslim message, but unfortunately their messengers twist the foolish minds of the malcontents, not so keen to deal with the aftermath.

Close
Can't find your Web ID? Click here