Features

What a lost prison manuscript reveals about the real Nelson Mandela

New light is shed on the president's politics, smoothed over in 'Long Walk to Freedom'

18 January 2014

9:00 AM

18 January 2014

9:00 AM

This is a story about Nelson Mandela, and it begins on Robben Island in 1974. Prisoner number 466/64 is writing up his life story, working all night and sleeping all day.  Finished pages go to trusted comrades who write comments and queries in the margins. The text is then passed to one Laloo Chiba, who transcribes it in ‘microscopic’ letters on to sheets of paper which are later inserted into the binding of notebooks and carried off the island by Mac Maharaj when he is released in 1976.

Outside, the intrepid Mac turns the microscopic text into a typescript and sends it to London, where it becomes the Higgs boson of literary properties, known to exist but not seen since it passed into the hands of the South African Communist Party, or SACP, in 1977. Years pass; the mystery deepens. Mandela goes from being an obscure South African prisoner to possibly the most famous living human, subject of global adulation and a ghostwritten autobiography that sells 15 million. His cult is such that prints of his hands are sold for thousands, and yet the prison manuscript stays missing. Until last week, when Professor Stephen Ellis of the University of Leiden sent out an email saying: ‘You’ll never guess what I’ve just found in the online archive of the Nelson Mandela Centre of Memory.’

ANC president Nelson Mandela is surround

So yes, the lost manuscript has come back to us and, with it, a range of fascinating questions. Why was it not published earlier? Why did it surface now? And above all, what light does it shed on Mandela’s Awkward Secret, first reported by Professor Ellis in 2011?

Everyone thought Mandela was a known entity, but he turns out to have led a double life, at least for a time. By day, he was or pretended to be a moderate democrat, fighting to free his people in the name of values all humans held sacred. But by night he donned the cloak and dagger and became a leader of a fanatical sect known for its attachment to the totalitarian Soviet ideal.

When Ellis first aired this theory, it read like a Cold War thriller, but when Mandela died last month, the African National Congress and the SACP both issued statements confirming that it was true: at the time of his arrest in 1962, Nelson Mandela was a member of the SACP’s innermost central committee.

BIO-MANDELA-WINNIE-JOE SLOVOThis, then, is why Ellis and I were dizzy with excitement when the prison manuscript turned up last week: here was a rich new source of virgin material to be scanned for the smoking gun, the inside and untold story of Mandela’s secret life as a communist plotter. Alas, the smoking gun was not there. But the prison manuscript does offer insights into the manner in which Mandela’s image has been manipulated over the decades.

It is common cause that the ANC decided in the 1960s to use Mandela as the anti-apartheid movement’s official poster boy. He was the obvious choice, a tall, clean-limbed tribal prince, luminously charismatic, married to the telegenic Winnie, and reduced by cruel circumstance to living martyrdom on a prison island. All you had to do was cleanse him of the communist taint and Bob’s your uncle: four decades down the road, you have the president of the USA getting weepy as he describes Mandela’s lifelong struggle for ‘your freedom, your democracy’. There’s no accounting for taste, but one wonders if Barack Obama would have said that if he’d known his hero batted for the opposition during the Cold War.

‘I hate all forms of imperialism, and I consider the US brand to be the most loathsome and contemptible.’

‘To a nationalist fighting oppression, dialectical materialism is like a rifle, bomb or missile. Once I understood the principle of dialectical materialism, I embraced it without hesitation.’

[Alt-Text]


‘Unquestionably, my sympathies lay with Cuba [during the 1962 missile crisis]. The ability of a small state to defend its independence demonstrates in no uncertain terms the superiority of socialism over capitalism.’

(FILES) African National Congress (ANC)

Whoa! That’s not Mandela, is it? Well, yes. These quotes come from the prison manuscript, which turns out to be the first draft of Long Walk to Freedom, Mandela’s famous 1994 autobiography. Much of the first draft is carried forth into the finished book, but these problematic quotes have vanished, along with several other outbreaks of what can only be described as pro-communist harangue. What happened?

Our search for an answer must begin with Rick Stengel, a New York journalist who is now President Obama’s undersecretary for public diplomacy. In the 1980s, Stengel did a tour of duty in South Africa, where he exhibited sensitivity to the hardships of black people and enthusiasm for their ANC liberators, surely one of the factors that led to his eventual appointment as Mandela’s ghostwriter.

Among the raw materials he was given to work with was the prison manuscript, a sprawling 637-page affair with many uneven passages and no clear ending. Stengel proceeded to turn this sow’s ear into Long Walk to Freedom, a blockbuster that considerably boosted the Mandela legend and formed the basis for a movie of the same title, now doing boffo box office around the planet.

In what follows, there is an element of conjecture. Since Mr Stengel is the ghostwriter of record, it seems logical to infer that he made the changes, even if we have no other basis for saying so. Pending clarification, let’s note that Stengel was a New York liberal who would instantly have realised that stridency was undesirable, especially if it sounded a bit Russian. Clearly those lines about the Cuban missile crisis and the evils of Yankee imperialism had to go. Beyond that, the changes are usually quite subtle — a quote dropped here, a shift in emphasis there. Having read both manuscripts several times, I think it’s fair to say that Stengel appears to have cleaned up Mandela’s act in three critical areas.

TIME's Person of the Year PanelRick Stengal Photo: Getty

The first was his premature conversion to violence. Officially, Mandela was a moderate black nationalist, clinging to hope of peaceful change until it was extinguished by the Sharpeville massacre of 1960. But in the prison memoir we find him plotting war as early as 1953, when he sent a comrade on a secret mission to beg guns and money from Red China, in flagrant violation of the ANC’s non-aligned and non-violent stance.

‘I was bitter and felt ever more strongly that SA whites need another Isandlwana,’ he explains. Driving around the country, Mandela constantly imagines rural landscapes as battlefields and cities as places where one day soon ‘the sweet air will smell of gunfire, elegant buildings will crash down and streets will be splashed with blood’. These vivid quotes did not make it into the bestseller.

The second area is his endorsement of force against opponents. In April 1958, the ANC called a three-day national strike which drew little or no support and had to be called off in humiliating circumstances. In Long Walk, Mandela notes that the strike was completely effective in towns where it was enforced by violence or pickets. ‘I have always resisted such methods,’ he says, but goes on to reason that coercion is acceptable in cases where a dissident minority is blocking a majority. ‘A minority should not be able to frustrate the will of the majority,’ he concludes.

But in the prison manuscript, he says the opposite. ‘This is not a question of principle or wishful thinking,’ he says. ‘If force will advance [the struggle], then it must be used whether or not the majority agrees with us.’ Pardon my italics, but it’s important to understand what you’re looking at here: the rewrite makes Mandela sound reasonable. The original is Stalinism. Who determines the course of struggle? It is the communist vanguard, imbued with higher wisdoms derived from the gospel of dialectical materialism. And if the majority talks back, they must be smashed. As they were in the final bloody phase of the struggle here. And everywhere else in Planet Soviet.

The third area of amendment involved errors of even-handedness. I thought I knew South African history, but one section of the prison manuscript surprised me. (The section beginning on page 304, if you must know. The entire book is available at http://specc.ie/longwalkms). I’d heard of the Alexandra bus boycott of 1957, in which a determined display of people power forced capitalists to withdraw a fare increase. But I was totally ignorant of ANC-led boycotts against Langeberg, a giant food-canning operation, and United Tobacco; both corporations were forced to deal with African unions and grant wage increases.

Emboldened, the ANC tackled cruel potato farmers, and brought them down too. Soon it was organising consumer boycotts all over the country, and often winning. At the same time, it was behind the ceaseless protests against the pass laws for women while winning stunning victories in the Treason Trial and elsewhere. The cost in ANC lives: zero. ‘To the best of my knowledge,’ writes Mandela, ‘no individuals [meaning political detainees] were isolated, forced to give information, beaten up, tortured, crippled or killed’ prior to December 1961, when the communists started their bombing campaign (see page 302).

Clearly, this could not be allowed to stand. It spoils the plot completely! So Stengel cut it, allowing Long Walk to soar towards to its moral epiphany. Provoked beyond endurance by oppression, Mandela convinces the ANC’s timid old guard that it is time to fight back. With their blessing, he goes on to form MK, ‘military wing of the ANC’, which launches a bombing campaign against non-human targets.

If we are to believe Stephen Ellis and Irina Filatova, a Russian historian who has also published on the subject, all of this is doubtful or fabricated. The decision to go to war was actually taken by the Communist party, meeting in a prosperous white suburb, in a marquee where black Africans were outnumbered around two to one by white and Indian intellectuals. ANC president Albert Luthuli did not endorse the move to violence and MK was not the military wing of the ANC at all — it was the sole creation of the Communist party, and everyone involved in its high command was openly or secretly a communist.

You will find nothing of this in Long Walk, of course. Is that Stengel’s fault? I think not. Mandela’s secret was still a secret in the early 1990s, and Stengel was a hired hand, taking instructions from God knows who. I attempted to elicit a comment, but Mr Stengel failed to get back to me. Another man who might be able to shed light on the mystery is Mac Maharaj, the man who smuggled the original out of prison, now a spokesman and adviser in the office of President Zuma. But he didn’t return my calls either.

We will therefore have to turn to Hollywood to complete this story. I went to see the movie version of Long Walk to Freedom armed with a pen and ready to fight yet another rearguard action for Afrikaner honour, only to find myself disarmed by the director Justin Chadwick’s take on the Mandela story. No one really expects movies to be true, and this one certainly isn’t. It’s a fable about a brave man who sticks up for what he believes in and, against all odds, wins in the end. Music swells, titles roll and I must hide the fact that I am moved. (Yes, I am a sucker.)

Then I borrow an electronic copy of the script and run a search for the word ‘communist’. Two scenes come up. In one, a white policeman jostles Mandela while saying, ‘Ag, everyone knows you’re a bloody communist!’ In another, a white police general appears at the scene of a bombing and says, ‘This is the work of communist terrorists….’ Both cops are clearly intended to be taken as racist buffoons. This is a perfect distillation of the traditional left-liberal position on Mandela. For decades it was gospel. Now, it’s inadvertently funny.

Rian Malan is affiliated to the Foundation for African Investigative Reporters.


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Show comments
  • David Kay

    i hope Mandela is burning in eternal damnation. Thank god for the internet. Without it and if historians had to rely on the MSM for their research, they’d all think we thought mandela was greater than Jesus rather than the murderous commie terrorist scumbag he was.

    • Shorne

      No doubt had you and those who have supported you been alive at the time you would have said similar things about another movement that fought against an oppressive regime which sought to enslave their people.
      I’m referring to “Front national de l’indépendance de la France” the Communist French Resistance during WW2…Oh no probably not, I doubt if any of them were black.

      • David Kay

        what made martin luther king a great man was that he didnt rsort to mass murder to further his political aims. What makes Mandela a murdering scumbag is the fact he is responsible for hundreds of innocent dead people, black and white

        • Shorne

          Looks like I was correct.

          • David Kay

            looks like your a commie murdering terrorist supporting scumbag. i have no time for people like you. i bid you good day

          • Shorne

            Actually I voted Tory last time and spent the last 13 years of my working life working in a prison where I had to deal with lots of people like you and your kind so I’m not too bothered by your ranting.

          • David Kay

            well considering the Tories are socialist now a days i can see why you voted for them. Im not ranting, and your ad hom attack about prison is funny considering im a former solicitor of the supreme court of england and wales and spent the first 8 years of my life in the British Army fighting terrorism. i have no time for murdering scum or their apologists like you

            your comparison of the apartheid regime in SA ( no matter how immoral) with the nazi occupation of france is pathetic. There is no comparison between the two. It does however, compare with the segregation in the US prior to the enactment of the Civil Rights Act of 1968 thats why i compared Mandela with Dr King

            I dont agree with Mals comment below that you are an imbecile, i have to say you are a sad excuse for an imbecile

          • Shorne

            I repeat I’m used to rants from people like you who go into overdrive the moment their views are challenged.

          • David Kay

            im debating, youre ranting

          • david ascher

            Jim Crow laws in the U.S. were a cakewalk compared with Apartheid. Apartheid was mass enslavement and dehumanization. Of course, justified by the “fact” that black South Africans are ‘savages’ who would be civilized as much as possible by the kindness of Apartheid.

            Hitler claimed to be fighting against Jewish scum. AND resistance terrorists too.

          • David Ashton

            Ah, the Reductio ad Hitlerum again.

            Give “black Africans” another five years under mass “emancipation” and “rehumanization” and then comment on “savages” and “civilization” in the absence of white people.

          • Shorne

            “im debating, youre ranting”

            “looks like youre a commie murdering terrorist supporting scumbag. i have no time for people like you.”

            “I dont agree with Mals comment below that you are an imbecile, i have to say you are a sad excuse for an imbecile”

            This is hilarious, if you were a solicitor with Higher Rights of Audience as you seem to be saying(?) you must have been a riot if anybody disagreed with you.
            What I think this is about is that a lot of people have had to bite their lips because of the esteem Mandela was rightly accorded can now think it;s OK to show their true feelings. I bet you were chewing the carpet when the surviving Mau Mau veterans were compensated. The situation in SA is very bad in many ways but as for the white population well as you sow so shall you reap;

            “White South Africans were granted rights over 86% of the country. Black, Asian and people of colour populations were forced to relocate either outside city limits or, for Black Africans, to one of the ten Bantustans (homelands) allotted to the major African ethnic groups.
            The state-created homelands had no natural resources, industry or workable farmland. They were the only areas where Black political rights were recognised by the state. Outside of them, Black people could neither vote nor own land, regardless of how long they or their ancestors had inhabited a given area.
            Between 1950 and 1986, more than 1.5 million Africans of colour were forcibly relocated from urban centres, major mineral areas and the most fertile farmland either to Bantustans or to the growing townships outside the large cities.
            The Public Safety Act and the Criminal Law Amendment Act of 1953 enabled the government to declare states of emergency and introduced draconian penalties (including fines, imprisonment and whippings) for demonstrating against the state in any form. In 1960, 69 people were killed and 187 wounded after large numbers of Black workers refused to carry their passes in Sharpeville, a further 600 were killed during a later uprising in 1976.”

          • David Kay

            fell better now youve had your little rant?

          • Shorne

            Repeating your rants does not mean I’m ranting. I’m also puzzled that ‘a former solicitor of the supreme court of england and wales’ can’t spell or punctuate.

          • David Kay

            my god its the Sabbath and youre still ranting and raving and your ad hom attacks continue. I only told you what i used to do for a living because you attempted to take the moral high ground by saying you worked in the prison system. Woopey doo. I pay more tax than you earned. im better educated than you, done more for my country than you and now ive had enough you

          • Shorne

            Well you still don’t seem to have grasped the correct use of uppercase and apostrophes, eg God should always have a capital G. I wasn’t trying to take any “high ground” just comparing you to a lot of rather sad individuals that I had to deal with in prison. Sadly many of them were ex-forces like you claim to be. How can you claim to to know my tax and education status?

          • Shorne

            Dear me you don’t seem to mind ” ranting and raving” on the Sabbath. Your grasp of capital letters and apostrophes continues to be rather shaky eg. God should always have a capital G.
            You have absolutely no idea how much tax I pay or my educational history. As a reactionary you have to assume some form of superiority. I wasn’t taking any moral high ground just making empirical comparisons with your outpourings to those of the troubled individuals I dealt with in prison. Sadly many of them ex-service men as you say you were The use of a Latin tag does not indicate intelligence;

            “In reality, ad hominem is unrelated to sarcasm or personal abuse. Argumentum ad hominem is the logical fallacy of attempting to undermine a speaker’s argument by attacking the speaker instead of addressing the argument. The mere presence of a personal attack does not indicate ad hominem: the attack must be used for the purpose of undermining the argument, or otherwise the logical fallacy isn’t there. It is not a logical fallacy to attack someone; the fallacy comes from assuming that a personal attack is also necessarily an attack on that person’s arguments.
            Therefore, if you can’t demonstrate that your opponent is trying to counter your argument by attacking you, you can’t demonstrate that he is resorting to ad hominem. If your opponent’s sarcasm is not an attempt to counter your argument, but merely an attempt to insult you (or amuse the bystanders), then it is not part of an ad hominem argument.
            Actual instances of argumentum ad hominem are relatively rare. Ironically, the fallacy is most often committed by those who accuse their opponents of ad hominem, since they try to dismiss the opposition not by engaging with their arguments, but by claiming that they resort to personal attacks. Those who are quick to squeal “ad hominem” are often guilty of several other logical fallacies, including one of the worst of all: the fallacious belief that introducing an impressive-sounding Latin term somehow gives one the decisive edge in an argument.”

          • KEVOD

            Careful – you are about to fall over your own ego.
            Keep the Covenant and shut up. I am surprised at your display of arrogance David. Don’t allow yourself to be drawn out. Find a quiet place and read the TANAKH.

          • Mal

            Looks like you’re an imbecile.

      • Rocksy

        The communist resistance got their material and intelligence from Britain but took their marching orders from Moscow

      • David Ashton

        You should read some revisionist work on the communist resistance, including its murder of Frenchmen after the war. The communists supported Stalin’s invasion of Poland, the Baltic nations and Finland, before the war, and were ready to suppport his oppressive regime after the war.

      • Fergus Pickering

        Well, there weren’t that may of them at all. Until after the war, that is.

    • Shahna

      Hmmm….. he was a “murderous commie terrorist scumbag” who spent 27 years living on a rock breaking rock to pass the time and when he got out he said “Reconciliation” instead of “Kill the white basterds who did this to me and mine!”

      It was directly because of Mandela and his reconciliation that South Africa had no widespread black on white massacring bloodbaths when apartheid came down.

      As a South African I thank him for that and as a South African I will always honour him for that. And no mud you or others can sling will change that.

      • David Kay

        i suggest you have a look at the genocide watch website to see whats happening to white people in SA

        • Shahna

          Crime is rife in South Africa and whatever or whoever the killer, still more blacks than whites die. Every day. Even on the farms.

          During the apartheid struggle the ANC ran a policy of “Liberation before education.” They’ve done nothing since then to acknowledge, own or counter that and so it continues.

          But all that has little to nothing to do with Nelson Mandela. He spent those years in jail breaking rocks on Robben Island.

          And it was directly thanks to Mandela that when he left jail and the ANC took over the govt that there wasn’t a wholesale slaughter of whites or a vicious civil war in this country. So still, I thank and honour him for that. Had he not managed that then Syria is nothing compared to what we could, and would likely, have been.

          • KEVOD

            Or perhaps still will be?

            The future is now and the killing continues unabated.
            Mandela forgave? – I think not.
            The parents of the children he killed forgave him? I think not.
            Only the man made god forgives! – I don’t.

          • Shahna

            What killing continues “unabated?”
            The killing in Syria? In Iraq? In the CAR and DRC? In Egypt? School and mall killings in the USA? What killing?

            In the last 20 years I’ve been robbed twice – but I’ve never seen a killing here. And the single rape I ever saw the results of was … white on white.

            I wasn’t talking about “forgiveness.”
            And who did Mandela kill? He was in jail for 27 years and I know of no-one HE killed after he was released? Do you hold him responsible for the killings of others? … Then how many killings are YOU responsible for?

          • KEVOD

            Shahna -are you on planet earth? I believe the discussion centres around Mandela and South Africa?
            If this is so, then I must be talking about killings in South Africa, surely? In terms of all Law – if a person orders the killing of another person – who is guilty?
            Perhaps you are a little too young to be debating with adults?
            For some reality and spiritual enlightenment why don’t you google world wide web dot farmitracker dot com. have a good look, then switch off mommy’s computer before she gets home.
            Apologies for the possible nightmares you may have after your excursion into forbidden territory.

          • Shahna

            Childish ad hominem attacks don’t exactly build your veracity or your credibility.

            Okay … I took a look at your farmitracker.
            Since Jul 2008 there have been 55 “Attacks on Blacks” and +- 1300 “Attacks on Whites?” That one?
            Well – unless they’re blatantly lying – what attacks or kind of attacks are they referring to? More blacks than whites get attacked in this country because there are a lot more blacks than whites in this country. And I’m pretty darn sure there have been more than 1355 attacks on blacks AND whites in this country since Jul 2008! Ferkook man! We’re the murder capital of the world.

            As for “White Refugee Camps???” WTF?!
            Oh – you mean if the people are poor and black they live in squatter camps and if they’re poor and white they’re in White Refugee Camps?

            Do you live here – or do you just believe everything you read without assessing bias?

            What your tracker is actually whining about is that being white is no longer a protected status in this country.

          • DB1954

            Being white in the U.S. used to be a “protected status”? Are you serious?

          • KEVOD

            I bow to your superior knowledge Shahna.
            Perhaps you would explain to all of us lesser whites why crime is Rife in SA – your words? How long do you believe it will still be before the Indians in Natal once again become ‘fair game’ to the Zulu’s?
            You come across just like a first year political science student, all of whom believe that they can change the world – but non of whom really know or understand the actual dynamics of conflict and oppression. Nothing is as it appears to be in the construct of your own reality, I can assure you. The ‘golden standards’ that you learn from books don’t apply in the real world. Mandela was incarcerated because he broke the Laws of the Land at that time. He was a terrorist. Nothing can alter the past. A new dispensation comes into power and suddenly a terrorist becomes a ‘freedom fighter’.
            The line between reality and illusion is wavy and keeps on moving. Your point of view is determined by where you are standing in relation to that line at that time!
            Arguments are irrelevant – only the facts of actions committed have any relevance. In spite of Black Obama – (without intention of bringing race into the picture) – why do you think that Mandela and all his comrades remain firmly on America’s list of terrorists? Simply because of the facts. Nothing can alter actions committed in the past. This discussion is all played out. Every different opinion has been voiced. There is nothing more to be said.
            Thanks for the chat.

          • Shahna

            Mandela was incarcerated because he broke the Laws of the Land at that time. He was a terrorist. Nothing can alter the past. A new dispensation comes into power and suddenly a terrorist becomes a ‘freedom fighter’.

            Yes. He did. He was. And the difference between a terrorist and a freedom fighter is what side of the fence you’re on. So you see anything in what I wrote that says or implies otherwise?

            And yes. Still. I thank and honour that terrorist/freedom fighter that when he left jail he called “Reconciliation!” and not “Kill!.” Had he done the reverse we’d likely still be in bloody civil war.

            Would I have done that had I been incarcerated on a rock breaking rock for 27 years of my life because I wanted a better fairer juster political system? Would you? Or would we have called “Kill the basterds?!” So how lucky for the country it was Mandela jailed for 27 years – and not I.

          • KEVOD

            Shaha – there is no fault with what you write, or what any intelligent person writes. The primary fault is the “division” that self serving degenerates created a very long time ago, and has existed on this planet since the first hominid population. This division forms part of survival instinct that was necessary. Logic says it would attenuate as ‘mind’ evolves, but clearly logic does not apply to every universal equation. As such people are only wrong if they are biased, for whatever reason or illusion. Man is forever paying only lip service to the desire for peace amongst all men. But lip service is not enough, and pretending to be unbiased is not enough.How many souls do you know who are TRULY unbiased in heart and mind?.
            I am not biased or judgemental. I am governed by the Universal Laws of Reality. As such, I love all people, the rich the poor and the misguided. I place no value on the golden calf that is paraded by Man as his god. There are a few others who share my labour, but very few. I have no significance to those who are blinded by ego and arrogance and avarice.Take from my words those that you feel in your heart have some value, and disregard the rest. I don’t come here to fight – I come here to teach not preach, and I love and respect you the same as I love and respect everyone, past or present.
            People are in conflict with you only, because, until now, they all perceived you to be a little biased, and you wanted to play the conflicting opinions game. Debate between ego’s has no result. as you have experienced many times. Ego is an empty bubble that precludes humility, understanding and truth. A good tool to use but not to possess. Anyway you were more right than any who were in conflict with you.
            Had it been you or I or both of us – we would have shouted –
            ‘”Please forgive us as we have forgiven you.
            Let us walk forward together as a United Nation based on reality and love, Let us share our gifts and seek truth. Let us work together, hand in hand, to free all our people from poverty and let us, from this day on,, teach people reality, who they are and where they come from. For only united in truth and understanding can a Nation persist. Let us show the world by example, so that they may follow.” ? – yes?
            Compare what we would have shouted (without any hidden agenda’s), to what was shouted, to bring balance.
            You don’t need to go to jail to follow such path do you?
            What a waste of life, and what an insult to the Creator of soul and the Makers of the flesh.

          • Shahna

            Then you and I have very little in common.
            I am biased and judgmental, I love very few people and I respect nothing and no-one that has not earned my respect. No-one gets soppy useless worthless “love and respect” from me just because they exist. Monkeys exist. Rats exist. Poison ivy exists.

            And no, I would not shout that ….” Please forgive us as we have forgiven you. Let us walk forward together as a United …. etc” crapp.I would shout “Let’s get stuck in – we have a lot of work to do!” ‘cos pretty words don’t fill stomachs or educate.

            I come here to see if anyone has a new or different or better point of view to offer so see to your own teaching and go to church for your preaching! Yes. I come here to fight. To fight for my opinion and reaffirm or amend it depending on what worth another offers.

            And if you really think that you are unbiased and non-judgmental (ie. completely undiscriminating), that you love and respect everyone who’s ever been or will be then I think you’re full of shite – or you just lie to yourself.

          • KEVOD

            Thank you for providing the expected data required.
            I will trouble you no more.
            Peace and Love to you.

          • Svigor

            Childish ad hominem attacks don’t exactly build your veracity or your credibility.

            But casting aspersions on his veracity or credibility isn’t argumentum ad hominem?

            And the plural of anecdote is not “data.”

          • Shahna

            Accusing someone of an ad hominen attack isn’t per se an ad hominen attack and I’m sure you’re as pleased as Punch that you know the plural of anecdote is not “data.” Congratulations. I’m sure it was a marvelous feat of learning on your part.

          • Andre Reid Jacobs

            So you have been robbed twice and seen a rape? Jesus where do you hang out? If I was your parents I would give you a warm klap and lock you indoors. Because if you believe that your experiences are below the average of a country then I suppose the average for others in SA is robbed 6 times and seen 3 rapes in 20 years. What a klutz you are!!!

          • Shahna

            Is there some point to that comment – or am I supposed to guess?

          • Andre Reid Jacobs

            Yes the point is your fantastically ignorant of SA history and a liar to boot.

          • Shahna

            Which bit of SA history am I lying about?

            … Seeing I don’t usually bother to lie and I’m usually aware when I’m doing so …. try be a bit more specific than “your (sic) fantastically ignorant of SA history and a liar to boot.

          • Andre Reid Jacobs

            You saw a white raping another white Please provide details of the case and the name of the rapist. This would be public knowledge. Just your ignorance of the negotiated settlement and constitution in SA which meant that Mandela had NO say over the whites safety shows you are ignorant of out past.

          • Shahna

            I didn’t say I saw a “saw a white raping another white.”
            I said I saw the results of it.

            And no. The victim was a friend of mine and I’ll not splurge the details for your salacious appetite.

            Are you seriously trying to pretend that white men in South Africa have never ever raped? Then…. how’s the weather on Andromeda?

            And I’m not ignorant of that bit of “our past.”
            Because I lived through it.
            Right here – in the RSA.

          • Andre Reid Jacobs

            Please, splurge the details of the rapist. The raped person, God bless her, would not be exposed even if it did go to court. BUT……… I know it never saw the light of day because there was no rape it was just something you pulled out of you white self hating finger. And of course white men rape, I never once denied that. I just pointed out your a liar and until you name this rapist and the case I will stand by this belief. And I lived through this SA for 53 years served for 4 yrs fighting Mandela’s commie shit.

          • Shahna

            Of course white men rape – but of course I’m lying?
            So you just like to call people liars because you can?

            I wouldn’t give you ice in winter.

          • Svigor

            No need to get all het up about it, Andre. Leftists scramble for whatever’s at hand when faced with the overwhelming evidence of black violent crime, and often resort to the rather underwhelming tool of anecdotes. They’re often made-up (as if we should trust their word, lol), but even when they aren’t, so what?

          • Christy

            Keep it up Shahna; I love how you educating these racist pricks on here. Madiba is a true hero in my eyes too. He had all the reason in the world to be pissed at the apartheid government especially the masterminds behind it.

          • Shahna

            Thanks Christy.

            All these years and they still haven’t realised they were only a proxy army fighting for American imperialism and “Full Spectrum Dominance.”
            …. Sad being that …. toegesluit.

          • Svigor

            Blacks are only 12.5% of the American population, but commit more than half of the murders. The black rape rate is 6.5 times the white rate.

          • Andre Reid Jacobs

            No we not racist, we just not ignorant self hating guilt ridden whites. We were never conned by paedophile socialist communist scum into believing this was a race war All of you’re left wing scum heroes are now being exposed in the UK as paedophiles.

          • Svigor

            One way to expand your knowledge of the world beyond your own, anecdotal, experiences, is to crack a book, a newspaper, or, far better, try the Internet. Try it, you might learn something.

          • KobusKobusE

            I know of no-one HE killed after he was released?….

            “The latest on the on-going issue of the `Shell House massacre’ is of relevance. During the first week of June, President Mandela announced in parliament that he had given the order to defend Shell House, the ANC head office in Johannesburg, during an IFP march just before the elections, even if it should require killing people.”-http://www.africafiles.org/article.asp?ID=3938

            This occurrence left an indelible impression on my mind when I witnessed ANC security guards shooting with automatic rifles from the top of buildings into the IFP crowd on De Villiers Street. This was not even near to Shell House so self-defence are just out of the question. Nineteen people was killed that day on the streets in Johannesburg.

          • Shahna

            If the president is guilty of murder when the police exceed their orders then … I wonder how many murders our white presidents committed?

          • KEVOD

            You don’t really what to know do you?
            It will only bring misery to your soul.

          • Shahna

            Would you run that one by again?
            I think you left a few words out.

          • Andre Reid Jacobs

            Well wonder no more you ,it is all recorded in the TRC hearing you fucking moron. And the chairman Tutu found that in 45 years their were 9000 deaths in 40 years that can be directly accredited to the government. This ANC government has conceded that 20000 deaths per year have occurred in jails due to police action. 750 000 murders since 1994. You are such a backward moron. You lefties are to ashamed to admit the truth, you beat Apartheid and opened the door to a monster 10x worse. That sticks in your throat so bad. The old saying goes it is the most difficult thing to admit you were wrong when realise you having been teaching the wrong thing all your life. This black government is currently a black killing machine and you lefties say. As long as it is not whites doing the killing

          • Shahna

            “their were 9000 deaths in 40 years that can be directly accredited to the government. This ANC government has conceded that 20000 deaths per year”

            Really?
            You know… I actually thought that 9000 was 6000 and the 20,000 and 750,000 were higher.

            Look again.
            I’ve never said the ANC are angels who walk on water.
            All I’ve said is “Thank you Mandela that we had no streets become rivers of blood; no towns eradicated from the map; no limbs hacked off schoolchildren; no bloodbath.” and I’m really glad we have no more official apartheid.

            The rest is just your own straw men.
            We can work to build this country, black, white and inbetween – or we can let it slide into hell on earth. That choice is ours. All of us now. Not just whites. But whining for yesteryear is just a waste of time and air.

            And I say “Its not okay for one person to kill another” and I really don’t care who’s pink or who’s purple.

          • KobusKobusE

            I know of no-one HE killed after he was released?….

            “The latest on the on-going issue of the `Shell House massacre’ is of relevance. During the first week of June, President Mandela announced in parliament that he had given the order to defend Shell House, the ANC head office in Johannesburg, during an IFP march just before the elections, even if it should require killing people.”-http://www.africafiles.org/article.asp?ID=3938

            This occurrence left an indelible impression on my mind when I witnessed ANC security guards shooting with automatic rifles from the top of buildings into the IFP crowd on De Villiers Street. This was not even near to Shell House so self-defence are just out of the question. Nineteen people was killed that day on the streets in Johannesburg.

          • Shahna

            See reply to Guest below.
            Between the two of you could only think of one incident and one where the police exceeded their orders – not where Mandela pulled the trigger.

            You are small bitter petty people wallowing in sorrow for yesteryear instead of building a brighter future.

          • Christy

            That’s normally the case with racist from all races; they just cant seem to let go of the past. I think they need some serious “thinking/introspection” time on Robben Island.

          • lojolondon

            As leader of “umkhonto we sizwe” (“spear of the nation”) ie. the military wing of the ANC, Mandela took the decision to kill innocent people to publicise his struggle. Thus he is personally responsible for every person murdered by ANC bombs, exactly the same way as Gerry Adams is responsible for every murder committed by the IRA.

          • Shahna

            And Obama is responsible for the murder of every child and civilian his drone bombs kill – unless of course you’re going to allow one but not the other the out of “collateral damage.”

            That was before his release and he wasn’t jailed for 27 years because the Rivonia judge was having a bad hair day.

          • lojolondon

            Much as I don’t like Obama, I have to say that a child killed by a drone is probably hanging out with a senior agent in Al Quaida. ie. an enemy combatant, (maybe his dad).

            Like Gerry Adams in the early days, Mandela took the decision to bomb railway stations, bus stops, and other public places and kill any person who was unlucky enough to be in the area. Murder, very lucky not to get the death sentence at the time.

          • Shahna

            He (they) are using predator drones to kill people thousands upon thousands of miles away from them and in dirt poor countries they are not at war with. That is unjust, immoral and wrong in every sense of those words. State officials calling wrong-targets and non-targets “collateral damage” is giving urban terrorism a whitewash and a war standing. (It’s not “war” just because it’s the US govt doing the indiscriminate murdering.)

            And think about it.
            If you’re taking down a bad guy – it’s not okay to kill the kid he’s holding up as a shield against your bullets. You wait until you can take him down without harming the kid or you let the bad guy go for another day. You don’t just blow up the whole town to kill that bad guy. (Or I should say “you shouldn’t” ‘cos that’s what they’re doing.)

            It’s one thing when terries like Adams’ group and Mandela’s group kill innocents indiscriminately (it’s why they’re called terrorists) but it’s entirely something else when the official legitimate govt of the world’s super-power is doing exactly that.

          • lojolondon

            Again, I really don’t rate Obama, but they do try to hit targets with no innocents, it happens but not very often, and when it does, the MSM is all over it. But the other guys were targeting innocents, no pretence of a military / strategic target. I am sure you can see the difference between collateral damage and targeted civilian massacres.

          • Shahna

            “I am sure you can see the difference between collateral damage and targeted civilian massacres.”

            To drop a bomb on a village of people is to intend to kill the people in that village. To then call the innocents killed “unintended collateral damage” is facetious … and a lie.
            Unless…. you expected the bomb to discriminate?

            —-
            “But the other guys were targeting innocents, no pretence of a military / strategic target.”
            Wrong. The civilians were their military/strategic target. It’s why people and groups of people who kill and terrorise civilians are called “terrorists.”

            Try this.
            The ANC plants a bomb at a large Eskom works; their intent is to take down a large part of the country’s grid. That bombs explodes and also kills 50 Eskom workers. Does the ANC get the out that those workers were unavoidable, “unintended, collateral damage” and therefore it’s ‘okay’ that they were killed?

            If it’s not okay for the ANC or the IRA to do – why’s it okay for the US govt to do? … They’re bigger and better armed? They’re legitimate ‘cos they’re a govt? Then it would be okay if Iran did this in …. the USA or France? Or terrorism becomes acceptable if “all the right people” are doing the terrorising?

          • lojolondon

            I am afraid that is garbage – USA targets vehicles and properties very carefully to minimise non-target deaths. When it happens you hear about it, but it is very effective and most often no collateral damage. I despise Obama, and he did promise to stop drones, and lied like he did about everything else, but there is no similarity between targeted strikes on terrorists and a bomb left in Johannesburg / Waterloo train station.

          • Shahna

            What’s the garbage?

            Of course there’s a difference and the difference is whether you drop that bomb in a backpack or from a very expensive machine a few thousand feet high in the sky.

            But to the dead and the mutilated?
            Hell. In the dust and rubble they even LOOK the same.

          • David Ashton

            It’s quite possible to condemn BOTH Obama and his predecessor’s “liberal intervention” in the Muslim world (on behalf of Israel) and Mandela’s co-operation with Slovo, Kasrils, Goldberg and Wolpe (on behalf of the USSR).

          • Shahna

            Well there now we disagree. (Again.)
            You see… I don’t think the USA fights wars in the ME for Israel – she fights them for herself. Israel is her sure certain foothold ally and scapegoat in the region (‘cos the US is the only one Israel has.)

            Mandela’s co-operation with Slovo, Kasrils, Goldberf and Wolpe…. :-))

            Excuse the grin but really!
            You’re looking at the Cold War from one side. I no longer do. (That Cold War was only cold in the US/Euro and USSR.) The white South African govt fought the African section of the US’s war against the USSR and they were also the ANC’s oppressor and enemy. The ANC took help, support, training and money where they could get it. From the USSR. Who else was there?

            Once upon a time I did believe all that gumph about the scary Reds. .. But now? Not any more.
            Now I see the USA is far worse than anything we were taught the USSR was.

          • David Ashton

            I made one mistake, Goldreich not Goldberg. As a student I met them and asked questions at London University just after they had been to get a weapon agreement with Communist Czechoslovakia. I also met John Harris in Oxford some years before he killed people at the railway station.

            I am not going to defend US actions in the Middle East, or bother to discuss the “Zionist Lobby” in the USA. It is quite possible to be critical of America without being credulous about the USSR. There are no “scary Reds” in eastern Europe, so you can easily forget the menace from communism, as outlined (though imperfectly) by, for example, Robert Gellately’s “Stalin’s Curse” (NY: Knopf, 2013). Western apprehension about Sino-Soviet strategic designs on southern Africa caused a mixed response to racial discrimination there. However, there were two sides to the “cold war”, because it was an interactive phenomenon; and almost the same could be said of responses to Germany between 1933 and 1937, given the impact of the international boycott on German exports, the experience of communist revolution after WW1, the Comintern conspiracy against the west, and Polish provocations over German Danzig.

          • Shahna

            So what questions did you ask and what answers did you get?

            It is quite possible to be critical of America without being credulous about the USSR.

            Hmmm…
            Is it possible to be critical of Russia without being credulous about the USA?

          • David Ashton

            Back in the early 1960s I actually asked whether in view of the obstinacy of the apartheid (I pronounced it correctly, by the way) wouldn’t it be a good idea to get armed help from the eastern block! What a “guess”! They waffled.

            I came across Harris on the very first occasion I entered the Junior Common Room at my Oxford college, where he was leading off about Afrikaners regarding blacks as beetles to a little group of mesmerised acolytes. I never forgot his face until I recognised this “good friend” of Peter Hain years afterwards, when he killed and maimed some “white” beetles and his mugshot appeared in the SA press.

          • Shahna

            Aparrrrt-hate. Roll that “R.”

            They waffled? Huh.
            What does it mean when political types won’t give a straight answer? …Tho’ these days it seems even a straight answer turns out to be as bent as hairpin bend.

            Did they start sneaking worried looks about the room to see if any BOSS types were listening?

            The Afrikaaner huh? …. :-))
            http://bloodlust-prince. thoughts. com/posts/the-guide-to-south-african-people-the-afrikaner

            (Remove the spaces after the dots.)

            I have never heard black folk referred to as torre…

          • David Ashton

            I’m surprised our media anti-racists did not use the “hate” bit instead of “hide”, but this was just another sign of their parochial ignorance. They used to refer to the Argentine “dictator” as “Peenoshay”. Anyway I’ve finished debating with you and others over a departed Xhosa ex-communist.

          • KEVOD

            Yes – True. As guilty as every member of the previous dispensation, and I remain overwhelmed by Man’s cruelty to his fellow Man.

          • Svigor

            One way to smell out a lefty: their anecdotal white on white crimes. I’ve learned this one through experience. Bring up the fact that blacks are only 12.5% of the American population, but more than half of the murderers, or the fact that the black rape rate here is six and a half times the white rate, etc., and they come back with “the only time I was raped was by a white man,” “the only violence I’ve seen was from whites,” “my white uncle molested me,” etc.

            It’s pretty cute, really, the appeal to innumeracy and ignorance of statistics…

          • Shahna

            Bring up the fact that blacks are only 12.5% of the American population,
            but more than half of the murderers, or the fact that the black rape
            rate here is six and a half times the white rate

            It’s pretty cute, really, the appeal to innumeracy and ignorance of statistics…

            Yes…. it is. Isn’t it?

          • KobusKobusE

            Surely the victims can’t be blamed when sharks in a feeding frenzy kills each other.

          • Shahna

            I’m sure you think you’re being being deep and profound and dark – but really…. you’re just being stupid if you think anyone blames fishfood for anything.

          • Andre Reid Jacobs

            You’re quite funny. It is as if you believe that the Apartheid regime was defeated in battle by the ANC and whites were left at the mercy of one black leader. The ANC had to negotiate and up until a negotiated settlement was reached the Apartheid regime could have unleashed the dogs of war and the country would have spiralled into a civil war that would have left countless more black people dead than whites. I remind you that the regime was nuclear capable and if they thought a massacre of whites would happen they would have made Syria look like a garden party and blacks would have been the greatest loser The regime would NEVER have allowed a repeat of the massacre of white Afrikaaner’s that happened in the Boer war. Mandela knew this, that is why he negotiated not because he was being nice to whites. Grow up your so naïve.

          • Shahna

            I’m the funny one?
            “It’s as if I believe..??!!” … What? Like it’s a sky pixie story?

            Really – it doesn’t matter WHY Mandela did it, it matters THAT he did it. Being nice doesn’t even buy eggs.

            Look – I’ll agree any day of the week those Nats had some weird ideas —- but drop nukes on South Africa? Just to kill more blacks than whites? …?? You are seriously delusional.

          • Andre Reid Jacobs

            You do not even understand what you write. Read your piece of drivel again. Never once did I say they would do it. But if we have to believe your tripe that he had the luxury and choice to say eenie meenie miney mo kill the whites or not when he got out. And we must be all grateful that he chose not to then you are one ignorant numbskull to believe the NP would have just sat there and let him. Very few whites would have died in your pie in the sky scenario. A hell of a lot of blacks would of and they would have STILL had to come to the negotiation table.

          • Shahna

            Had Mandela called for a bloodbath when he got out he would have got it. As it was there were some serious attempts to instigate just that but because they didn’t have his support they didn’t have popular support.

            Had he called for that bloodbath a helluva lot of blacks AND whites would have died and we’d be lucky if the civil war was over by now.

            So. As I said.
            It doesn’t matter WHY he did it.
            It matters only THAT he did it.
            And because he called “Reconciliation!” instead of “Kill the whites!” you and I have a country that looks like the RSA and not the DRC or the CAR.

            The Nats didn’t hand over power to “give the blacks a turn to rule.”

          • Andre Reid Jacobs

            And if De Klerk had not negotiated or called for a white Afrikaaner state there would have been a bloodbath and HE would have got it. So no little girl it wasn’t up to Mandela to call or stop a bloodbath. You have been sucked into this hero worship of a very flawed communist. Both these men won the Nobel peace prize for a good reason as both had the power to make or break this country. The one could not succeed without the other. The defence force never fought a race war they fought a communist takeover which would have led to a bloodbath. The SADF stopped them in their tracks and they were forced to negotiate. So get that little fantasy out of your head that Mandela was the whites saviour. He wasn’t. We did not need him, we had the military might to force the commie to negotiate.

          • Shahna

            White Afrikaner state? ..Oranje?
            South Africa fought America’s proxy war in Africa.
            Perhaps you still hold grudges against the communists/Russians but that would be your problem to deal with and I’m well aware of De Klerk’s role in the process.

            I don’t recall calling Mandela anyone’s savior – let me check.

            Yep. I didn’t.
            So why do you put your words in my mouth?
            The only way you can argue is by building strawmen and then breaking down your own strawmen?

            SA’s military might obviously wasn’t enough – or there’d have been no need to negotiate away the power. So that’s just your fantasy.

          • Andre Reid Jacobs

            “SA’s military might obviously wasn’t enough – or there’d have been no need to negotiate away the power. So that’s just your fantasy”. Just this sentence alone shows how deep your ignorance runs. You are obviously from a family that has a father that had a yellow streak down his spine and evaded the border, a mother who had a private lesson in the struggle with the gardener and yourself that was brought up believing the garbage spewed our by both of them. Have a crappy ignorant life

          • Shahna

            A return to your standard argumentum ad hominem.
            When you can’t attack the argument – attack the person.
            All you’re good for.

          • KEVOD

            Andre, please, you must be aware of the pressure brought to bear on De Klerk by America and a certain NGO, that groomed him for the handover task.
            Had a war broken out – The ANC would have had full military support from America, This is not broadly known, but it is the truth. It would have been an unmitigated disaster for all. If you don’t believe me – ask De Klerk, he is still with us.

          • Shahna

            The Berlin Wall came down and the USSR fell and so America withdrew from proxy wars in southern Africa. And with that withdrawal went the covert support the USA Cold War Govt gave the SA Apartheid Govt.
            The name of that NGO please?

            Perhaps Andre has forgotten that every decent person in the world outside SA abhorred white SA with very real vengeance?

            Full military support huh?
            You mean bombs overhead and boots on the ground?
            Then your source for that please?

            ‘Cos I pretty much felt at the time if we did not sort ourselves out the damm Yanks would come do it for us ‘cos we had nukes; but I don’t recall anything beyond “wishful thinking” on the part of some that the Yanks would actually invade us….

          • Andre Reid Jacobs

            And every indecent person in the world outside SA wanted to overthrow the government to get at the mineral wealth. These indecent people were Russia and their satellite states who backed the ANC for a violent overthrow that would have resulted in an immediate dictatorship. I need not remind you of what Russia did to their own people. The cold war would not have stopped if Russia had got hold of SA mineral wealth, it would have escalated. We were the dream goal for them. But they failed, the SADF and the brave soldiers, black, white and coloured stopped the Cubans and Russian troops in their tracks. The Russians without our mineral wealth could not finance their communist ideals anymore, they were broke.

          • Shahna

            Russia has more mineral wealth that SA can even dream of. Don’t buy that shite. We fought America’s poxy proxy wars in Africa and in return America held up the apartheid govt. (Covertly. While she was telling the world what a nasty bunch of racists we were.)

            Our value to Russia and America is not our gold and diamonds or even the platinum; it’s our position. And God help us if those ruddy Egyptians ever blow up that ruddy canal of theirs!

            PS. We heard lots of nasty stories about nasty reds under the bed all those years ago. But whatching what the Yanks have been up to these days — I think we were just spun a line to keep us in line.

          • Andre Reid Jacobs

            LOL ha ha

          • Andre Reid Jacobs

            God you’re a joke!

          • KEVOD

            Jacobs old cock, you amuse me. Of all the replies I have had, yours are the only that I value. You are so fucking intellectually challenged that you believed every word your parents, your school, your Kerk, and your Nat. gang government fed you, and you still do. You were such a brave boy going to the border huh, and you actually believed all the crap you were fed about the Russians and Communists. I am the joke, are you sure? Do you even know a politician from the old dispensation? Have you ever sat down and talked to one of them? Every time you open your mouth you put your foot in it. Well even today your head remains firmly up your asshole, and it’s all black up there. All the Engish speakers in this country were the ones that imprisoned the wives and children of the boere in slave camps. Yea, I have heard it all before. Sadly there are not enough of us ‘lefties’ to have swung any vote. It was your Volk that voted for this new dispensation – and the bitter pill is too hard to swallow. You are nothing but a bunch of self serving cowards, Nazi sympathisers, and totally without any honour. That’s the truth – now you can come and moer me for having said it. Where the fuck does the Reid in your name come from? You mongrels take the cake!
            How’s that – the response you wanted or the response you expected – LOL.

          • David Ashton

            Another example of personal abuse which the “liberals”, “leftists” and “communists” typically prefer to reasoned argument and objective facts. They respond like people who belong to a religious cult when challenged or opposed, except that their language is viler.

          • stewball

            Mongrels are very intelligent doggies.

          • KEVOD

            You are unaware of America’s role?
            Strange.

          • Shahna

            Hmm….
            It does appear to be the case.

          • Svigor

            Mandela didn’t call for a bloodbath. Well, there’s an accomplishment right up there with splitting the atom, or ascending into Heaven to sit at the right hand of the Father.

          • DB1954

            Besides, Mandela probably couldn’t have cared less about whites once he and the ANC came to power. They were no longer a threat to him, so why allow whites to be slaughtered in front of the TV cameras? These days, the ANC allows blacks to slaughter them slowly, quietly, and inevitably.

          • iamlg34

            Mandela taught me to let go of hate. I hated white people and I hated Mandela for not grabbing the land and locking up everyone who was involved. But he said you will never truly be free until you let go of the hate inside. I have never felt so free in my life. I no longer hate white people, I embrace them, I love them and I will do what I can to protect them. I know people are being harmed in SA and I will speak up against any violence. I will do whatever I can to show white people that Africans are kind loving people. I was educated next to my white brothers, i played rugby with my white brothers and I will build a nation with my white brothers.

            Anyone who is doing otherwise is an enemy to freedom and peace and I will not support them. Together we can show the world that a new nation is being forged together through love, peace and hard work. This is Africa!

          • DB1954

            The ANC continues the genocide of South African whites. South Africa has already returned to a state of nature. You should get on your knees and pray for mercy. Behold what communism hath wrought.

          • DB1954

            On the other hand, the black mobs killed at least one young, white American who was there to help the people who murdered her.

          • Christy

            I probably would have gone the same way, if it meant having to fight an uphill battle just so I can get a democratic state. I would have gone to China,Cuba,Russia,USA etc….you get my point? White people will never know and understand the mental and physical struggle black leaders of the apartheid era had to endure just to get equal rights. Mandela was incarcerated because of his political convictions which was a democratic state where ALL could live and have the same rights! The apartheid government use his “terrorist status” as an excuse to avoid the inevitable.
            Well, it didn’t work! Thank God…..

          • KEVOD

            Neither side was right because they acted according to their own illusions.

          • KEVOD

            Do the numbers really matter in the context of your argument. regardless of whether you are right or wrong. If life is the most precious commodity in our Universe, that most people with a modicum of intelligence would agree with? Then we should stop talking about murder as a statistic, or some arbitrary numbers written on a board. If we value life and awareness and peaceful coexistence – and the empty words of a person’s inherent right to life. Then basic values that have no value must change. If we are unable to love each other, regardless of race or ethnicity or for any other reason, then we are truly lost and walk the path to extinction. Is that truly what everybody wants? We all know in our hearts what is right and what is wrong, other than the mentally insane. Why do we find it so difficult to speak truth – why don’t we speak truth. Why all the bullshit, when we know it is just that???

          • lojolondon

            Mandela was offered freedom countless times in the 1980’s – on the single condition that he renounced violence. He refuse, and personally set the course of change in South Africa back by at least 10 years.

          • Zain Ebrahim

            lojolondon – pretty much everything you’ve written here is factually incorrect.

          • lojolondon

            Really?? Are you sure? Well, I would love to hear what you think is incorrect then, let’s hear it?

          • Zain Ebrahim

            You said he was offered freedom countless times in the 80’s under the single condition that he renounce violence. That is not true.

            He was offered freedom six times. The first five times the condition was that he go to live in the Transkei. The sixth (and final) time in 1985 had the condition that he renounce violence and violent protest but he would be released while the ANC would still be banned. So he would not be free to oppose Apartheid through the ANC. Nor would he be free, as a black man, to live in an urban South African area – due to apartheid law. So it wasn’t really “freedom” that was offered to him (he certainly didn’t see it that way).

            This is part of what he had to say to this offer:
            (from http://prisonphotography.org/2013/12/05/mandelas-1985-refusal-of-release-from-prison/)

            I am surprised at the conditions that the government wants to impose on me. I am not a violent man. My colleagues and I wrote in 1952 to [Daniel François] Malan asking for a round table conference to find a solution to the problems
            of our country, but that was ignored. When [Johannes Gerhardus] Strijdom was in power, we made the same offer. Again it was ignored. When [Hendrik] Verwoerd was
            in power we asked for a national convention for all the people in South Africa to decide on their future. This, too, was in vain.

            It was only then, when all other forms of resistance were no longer open to us, that we turned to armed struggle. Let Botha show that he is different to Malan, Strijdom and
            Verwoerd. Let him renounce violence. Let him say that he will dismantle apartheid. Let him unban the people’s organisation, the African National Congress. Let him free all who have been imprisoned, banished or exiled for their opposition to apartheid. Let him guarantee free political
            activity so that people may decide who will govern them.

            What freedom am I being offered while the organisation of the people remains banned? What freedom am I being
            offered when I may be arrested on a pass offence? What freedom am I being offered to live my life as a family with my dear wife who remains in banishment in Brandfort? What freedom am I being offered when I must ask for permission to live in an urban area? What freedom am I being offered when I need a stamp in my pass to seek work? What freedom am I being offered when my very South African citizenship is not respected?

          • lojolondon

            Compliments for doing the research – I would say that this is his view, He was the leader of the armed wing so he doesn’t have to be a violent man – he just had to agree not to kill people to achieve political aims. Botha and DeKlerk offered him freedom for certain conditions especially including renouncing violence, and he renounced those. DeKlerk especially wanted to move the whole story forward, and felt he could not release a man who would not agree to work peacefully – in the end he did it anyway. I know it is not cool in the MSM to compliment DeKlerk, but he deserves a lot of credit for his determination to release Mandela.

          • David Ashton

            Verwoerd recognised that South Africa was composed not of one but of several “nations”, and that was the sticking-point with the “national” convention idea as proposed by the Liberals and African organizations. The difference in levels of civilization needed to be taken into account. The pass laws were not dissimilar to the internal passports in the USSR, and were used to control random migration. They were nevertheless cumbersome and humiliating, but reforms would have taken place if the Grand Partition plans that Verwoerd had in mind were implemented – instead he was murdered by a Portugese communist.

          • KEVOD

            Is this statement free of racial bias? Think about it Zain.

          • Shahna

            Is freedom freedom if it’s conditional?

          • KEVOD

            Define your perception of freedom first.

          • Shahna

            Why not ask the guy who thinks conditions denote freedom and freedom outweighs principle?

            …Even today we do not release criminals from jail on condition they forswear violence and promise not commit another crime.

          • KEVOD

            This too is quite true.

          • CaptainCurmudgeon

            He did nothing about the whites being slaughtered. South Africa is a hell hole because of him

      • blight14

        Denial isn’t just a river in Egypt……….

        • Shahna

          Neither is Not Very Bright.
          If you look again you might notice I didn’t deny anything in that post.

        • Christy

          lol………….

        • Christy

          And I think it goes both ways….

      • simone

        Just to be clear he was in prison for a reason they didnt just throw him in he was found guilty of treason and 156 violent crimes against him. I do agree however that south africa would’ve undergone a much more traumatic change were it not for him. Still he was not a god, and I fear the whole world sees him as such….

        • Christy

          No Mandela is not a god or God. This being said I admire him for taking the route of reconciliation.

          • KEVOD

            You could have done better – you had the cream – all he had was dirty water. Think how different all could have been if the intelligent had bothered to take action instead of allowing the Servants to think for them. NO EXCUSES ACCEPTED. You stood and watched – but you did nothing.

          • david ascher

            I’ve been trying to follow this discussion without gagging from the racist stench of your comments and those of your buddy Andre. Yecch. You guys are truly sick s.o.b.s stuck in the screwed up worldview of the Natzies. Give it up already. Your guys lost because you were out of touch with reality and thought that secret deals and “anti-communism” assured eternal domination.

            Yecch. See a shrink.

          • KEVOD

            David – I suggest you address your comments to the right person, or are you incapable of coherent thought?
            …’trying to follow’ – but not quite succeeding. Read the Tanakh, and keep the Covenant my boy.

          • david ascher

            Kevod,
            Can’t tell if you think you’ve uncovered a dirty jew or a fellow jew. Forget it schmuck.

          • KEVOD

            My dear David, if you live as long as I have you will discover the illusion of impartiality. Each and every person is confronted by two realities every day of his or her life. The outer reality, or social reality in which a person lives – and the inner reality that you create by virtue of your upbringing, containing the ethics and morals of your race. As a Jew you were taught the evil of discrimination against any due to differences in race creed or colour. But we don’t always agree with what we are taught, even by our parents or spiritual leaders – and that is good! How many of our people have you heard shouting for equality in public, but expressing racism in the privacy of their homes? That is clever, for self survival. There are no people that are truly unbiased, Our Law says an ‘eye for an eye’ – and that Law supersedes anything taught to the contrary. If that was not the basic belief of our people – there would be non of us left today. This is the harsh reality of a sick world. The first opinion that that we have of anyone unknown to us, is their physical appearance – beautiful chick / good looking / ugly / dangerous / friendly / uncertain etc etc. Before or after these initial thoughts – black / white / Chinese or whatever..So before a single word is spoken, we already form an opinion, and we set our level of alertness according to fist impression. These subconscious normal human responses apply to everyone and stem from our survival instinct. If a person expresses anything derived from this instinct, immediately “racist” is shouted. I find this amusing but at the same time, sad! I don’t care what a person’s skin colour is, nor do I care about his origins. I care only how people treat each other. That is the benchmark that differentiates humans from Demons. I’m damned if I will take sides if two conflicting parties are both wrong, as has been the case in this country from the time of the first ‘white arrival’. I don’t care about more or less guilty, because I don’t judge, it’s not my job. But I will happily criticise both sides for the idiots that they reveal themselves to be. Other than right or wrong – I have no personal opinion to express. Biased, of course I am. A Jew I am not, because I do not follow self serving illusion. A Hebrew I am – and to understand the difference you need to study all the oldest scripts before the invention of Judaism, and the evolution of the Hebrew language itself. Self serving misinterpretation has resulted in inner confusion and inner conflict in most of those of the tribes of Israel.
            I like you David, and I have a deep unbreakable link with you. I don’t care what you say – but don’t target me on a personal level please. I am not your enemy!
            Every person on this planet has a sacred right to life – when we lose respect for that, we cross a line that is one way only. I have zero time or patience for those who engineer their arguments based on self serving interests, ego. arrogance and avarice. I have no time for those who use false religious beliefs to convince others that they are better or more worthy. These are the people who manufacture their own gods designed to produce fear in the weak minded, for purposes of control.
            If you do not already know – that there is only one Creator, and NO GOD’S in this or any other Universe – then you still have much work ahead of you.
            Shalom.

          • david ascher

            You know nothing about me – including how long I have lived. It’s a shame that despite your implied long life you are still classifying people and, more importantly, making decisions and judgements about them as a small child would.

            I cannot imagine why you would write “I like you David, and I have a deep unbreakable link with you. I don’t care what you say -” based upon your childish assumptions and suppositions. Actually, I can imagine why.

          • KEVOD

            I know everything about you and I place you in no category.
            I do not classify people, they do that for themselves. I also cannot judge people.
            You make things up as you go along – without any foundation. Next you will be telling me that the primordial soup was the origin of man? Thanks for evoking an amusing mood.
            Have you ever thought that I may be your best friend? – or perhaps someone who carry’s your credit? Perhaps even the prosecutor who lays before the Judge your life’s work?
            LOL

      • CaptainCurmudgeon

        He earned his time in prison by putting bombs on white children’s school busses…he left his savage MK blacks to murder white farmers…10% of the whit farmers brutally murdered, raped, disembowled,… Their children set afire. Most whites have fled the country…if you honor him… Then you must be black. If you honor the evils he let be visited upon whited you are evil and blind.

        • Zain Ebrahim

          Please provide evidence for these claims of yours.

        • KEVOD

          My friend, I honour no man who is not worthy of honour.
          I am merely a servant, an observer. If it was up to me, I would say, and have said – give them all a second chance. With advances in technology the world is able to communicate as never before. There is a growing movement that works towards saving this planet and it’s ecology. Sadly the planet takes precedence over the species homo sapiens – and words fall on deaf ears. Ego, arrogance and avarice, that lead to false perceptions will result in the extinction of the current seeding’s on this planet. Best you think of me as a insane prophet of doom, and just get on with your life.
          Alas there seems to be too little time left to add enough positive weight to the pan of life. I have searched amongst the ignorant and the confused, and even amongst those who control the mind of man, and I am left with empty words. My job is at an end – now it’s in the hands of those referred to by the people, as their “Gods”.

      • David Ashton

        Mandela could have been released earlier if he had promised at any time to renounce terrorism. He was fortunate to escape the death penalty. His jail conditions were not bad compared to the ANC-run concentration-camps, and towards the end of his imprisonment not at all bad. It is true that in co-operation with white leaders and big business he made the “transition” less horrific than it might have been, but that is all. He was no Luthuli, or Gandhi, or Gorbachev. The real problem is not such much his personal record, warts and all, but the frightening level of deification from the western media, far more disturbing than the swarms of revolting students from Peking to Paris who waved the little red book of inanities from Chairmurderer Mao.

        • Shahna

          Mandela was prepared to renounce violence if the state would do so as well. The state would not.

          It kinda takes a special kind of person to stay in jail just for a principle … well, I think so.

          No he wasn’t “lucky” he didn’t get the death sentence.
          At his sentencing the judge told him that had be been charged with high treason and not just treason he’d have given given the death penalty so he was giving him the maximum he could – life.

          “…he made the “transition” less horrific than it might have been, but that is all.
          Hmm… Have you looked at the DRC or the CAR lately?
          Have you ever read what went on in places like Liberia and Sierra Leone? He made that “transition” bloodless. For me – living here and still living here – that was more than enough. That was … everything. Quite literally.

          He wasn’t “deified” here.
          He was loved.
          Now the rest of his family – that’s another story.

          • David Ashton

            I don’t much mind South Africans having a high opinion of Mandela in comparison to all the alternatives on offer, but I am concerned about the hysterically global adoration that followed his death. As for Liberia, Sierra Leone, the “Democratic Republlc” of the Congo, and most other areas of “independent” Africa, the less said here, the better. One wouldn’t want to sound “racist”, after all.

          • Shahna

            Why thank you kind sir, simper simper.
            LOL. Be as racist as you like – I always think racism reflects on the speaker not the spoken off……..

            And we are Africa.
            Much as white South Africa liked to think of itself as… well really… “an extension of Europe,” we are actually Africa, in Africa. And we were very lucky not to go the way a helluva lot of other places in Africa did.

  • Newsfox

    One of the more ridiculous articles you’ll read this week. The oppression of black people by the ultra racist whites was far far more justified a reason for taking up arms than the exclusively economic reasons which have driven almost all Western funded war in the past 40 years. Tories still trying to downgrade the abuses because in the 80s there were more than a few who wanted it to succeed.

    Mandela should’ve have bought his communist beliefs to bear on South Africa – instead he allowed a black elite to take the spoils and Apartheid goes on. Many people who supported and profited from the racist system still do now. It’s well known that Mandela had dodgy friends and it’s well known that he introduced badly thought out right wing policies.

    • Deon De Lange

      The author is neither arguing for nor against the justification for armed struggle. He is simply correcting some long held and widely reported myths about the late President’s views on the matter.

    • ClausewitzTheMunificent

      Your post raises an interesting point. You denounce “Western” governments for solely waging wars for “economic reasons”. However most of everything can be reduced to economic reasons from a certain angle. And from this viewpoint, philosophically the struggle between peoples cannot meaningfully be subjected to moral analysis, the final (in a lesser sense) outcome being neither good nor evil, but rather either economically more or less successful than its predecessor. And might this not be also a materialistic interpretation? Thus your support of communism is all the more hypocritical, since we know, and have known for a long time, that whatever may be said for or against Communism, that it is inevitably a far less successful economic system than that which it is often called to replace. As a last point, racism is not a one way telescope, and the fear and repression of the South African regime were most likely induced by what they saw happening all around them in Africa.

    • Rocksy

      Exactly because the people of North Korea could have been a fine example.

      • David Ashton

        North Korea is a racist as well as state-socialist country.

        • Rocksy

          Irony. Look it up.

          • David Ashton

            I was just confirming your point. I do know what “irony” means.

    • David Ashton

      (1) Read the Tomlinson Commission report on the history of apartheid, and the reasons why far-sighted whites wanted to partition the vast area into almost equally sized black and white national territories, with the blacks getting the lion’s share of fertile land.
      (2) Read about the economic damage that communism and marxian socialism have inflicted on almost every country where it has been tried, black, white or yellow.
      (3) Understand why there has been a collusion between the most parasitic elements of international finance capitalism and many “anti-racist” movements, because of a shared interest in cultural confusion and the exploitation of cheap labour of any race in the mines and manufacturing industries.

      • Rocksy

        Preaching to the choir.

        • David Ashton

          I sympathise with your views on immigration, race and Scotland, which you have been preaching to the choir, whereas I have been expressing such opinions well outside these confines.

      • david ascher

        I get now… international finance capitalism is run by “Communists”. Jews, I would have to guess from the racist tone of your posts in general. Back under the rock troll.

        • David Ashton

          Oh dear, back to abuse now. The old Leninist tactic of constant insult.

          The collaboration between financiers and communists has been fully documented by Antony Sutton’s trilogy on western aid to the Soviet Union and his “Wall Street and the Bolshevik Revolution” which dismisses the idea of Jewish Communism, and by “Vodka Cola” by Charles Levinson, a Jewish trade union leader. The key figures in 1917-18 were Olof Aschberg and Alexander Helphand, and in recent years Armand Hammer. The common thread is an absence of national attachments and a materialistic attitude to life. I would recommend you read Andre Gerrits’ “The Myth of Jewish Communism” which is a balanced and informative study. In South Africa, of course, Jews were quite strongly represented in the SACP and the Liberal Party, but also among some industrialists from the days of the Randlords; this created a shared support for racial integration which in turn created the “Christian Nationalist” reaction among Afrikaners. Instead of tone-deaf guesswork, you might also try reading “The Red Holocaust” by a Jewish economist, Steven Rosefielde, whose value is indicated by the hysterical lying abuse it received from leftist like yourself when obliged to notice it.

          • david ascher

            O.K. I thought I smelled an anti-semite, but I may have been mislead by the generally racist tone of your posts that typically comes with a healthy dose of paranoid Jews are pulling all the strings anti-semitism. It is the nature of online discussions that one cannot always be sure of what people mean by what they write, however, I seem to have misjudged you. While you may not be an anti-semite, you are clearly a convinced racist. Ain’t it great that racists always belong to the ‘superior’ group!

            So it is non-Jewish financiers and industrialists who supported the rise of Communism around the world. (Except, of course, for those who were supporting the rise of fascism.) They supported the Communists because they liked the idea of opening new markets? or they hoped to have access to cheap Soviet labor?

          • David Ashton

            Rushton thought the Chinese were superior to whites, and Lynn thinks the Ashkenazim superior to Gentiles. I don’t much care either way, but I prefer my own people to have their own government, so to speak. Both non-Jewish and Jewish financiers have had an interest in cheap and docile labour, of which Russia, China and Africa have had plenty on offer. Some wealthy Jews have had an interest in promoting communism for whatever reasons; e.g. Olof Aschberg, Alexander Helphand and Armand Hammer.

          • david ascher

            So in your view there are both Jewish and non-Jewish financiers? Not Swiss and Dutch and English and Italian and American financiers? Any Chinese financiers? Japanese?

            What do you mean by your ‘own people’? Does each of us have an ‘own people’? Seems like a quaint concept in the 21st century.

          • David Ashton

            The Swiss, Japanese (etc) financiers are mostly not Jewish in heritage, I should think. Jews have historically been well represented in financial affairs, and it is hardly necessary to find an “anti-Jewish” website for evidence; Jacques Attali and Jerry Muller can be consulted if in doubt.

            You will certainly find Jews fairly prominent in international trade finance, and this is a position that arises partly from their acumen in this field and partly from their international contacts as an “international people”. There is no mystery or prejudice about this. It is a matter of simple observation and record. Gentiles, of course, are also involved in this business; for example, David Rockefeller’s Chase Manhattan Bank in Soviet Moscow, for example.

          • david ascher

            I was being somewhat snarky in my previous comment in this thread. It seems important to you to divide financiers into two major groups – “Jewish” and “non-Jewish”. Do you believe that roughly 50% of the world’s financiers are Jewish? I don’t know for sure, but I doubt it. I think, instead, that this is your racist outlook showing itself.

            So Ashkenazi Jews are ‘superior’ (in what ways?) to “Gentiles”? And the Sephardim are superior to the Ashkenazim? or inferior? And that’s because the Sephardim lived in Southern Europe while the Ashkenazim lived in Northern Europe? so their genes went bad from adapting to the Mediterranean peoples who ‘everybody knows’ are ‘inferior’ to the hardy Nordic types??

            These claims are so patently ridiculous that it should be clear even to a committed racist that they are “racist drivel”.

          • David Ashton

            A persistent feature of your “replies” to what I say is suspicion of or guesswork about what I “really” think. This is analogous to the way in which some antisemites see sinister designs beneath some statements or actions by Jews, another feature is your occasional gracious apology for sheer personal insult, and a third is your ignorant confidence in questionable assertions about, for instance, human biological science.

            On the question of the average intellectual ability of Ashkenazic Jews compared to that if (say) Australian aborigines, read Richard Lynn’s “The Chosen People” (Washington 2011). It has its weaknesses, but it is not “drivel”. When you have bothered to study it and the other books on gene-clusters and adaptation to environments, come back here, and prove that the professional scientists have produced nothing but “patently ridiculous” claims. So far as Jewish achievement is concerned, who other antisemites will be satisfied if you could refute rather than dismiss his data out of hand.

            It is quite obvious from the superficiality of your sarcasm that you are waving the tattered little flag of impertinence on the vast fortress of your self-imposed ignorance.

          • david ascher

            It seems that you are willing to read things from “scientists” uncritically. Psychologists have been measuring ‘inborn abilities’ like ‘intelligence’ that don’t even exist for a hundred years or more. They tailor their ‘research’ to adapt to the latest ‘breakthroughs’ in the ‘understanding’ of how the brain works, but their research is meaningless. When the brain worked ‘just like a clock’ then that was how everything was explained; when it worked ‘just like computer’, then measurements of ‘native abilities’ and explanations for ‘racial’ differences were explained in that way; then it was ‘brain chemistry’ and now it is ‘genes’. Nobody bothers to give more than a half hearted explanation of what something like ‘intelligence’ is – since it is so ‘obvious’ to all of us ‘intelligent’ people. But if you cannot explain what you are really trying to measure (and philosophers went at these things for centuries before the psychologists got into it), your research and its results are meaningless drivel.

            ‘Achievement’ can only be measured in a cultural context. It is clearly not a ‘native ability’ but an objective outcome within a social/cultural context.

            An example that you might be able to relate to – Billy Graham was clearly not a very intelligent man (unless you want to argue that he MUST have been smart to achieve what he did – which is a tautology, obviously) yet he was able to ‘achieve’ access to something like 7 US presidents, advising them on temporal as well as spiritual matters. I doubt if a clown like him could have achieved as much in the U.K. – certainly not in the USSR, France, or dozens of other countries.

          • David Ashton

            Meaningless drivel!

          • David Ashton

            So I am a “racist” but not an “anti-semite”. Others might say I am an “anti-semite” but not a “racist”. Still others might say I am both, and I might protest that I am neither.

            What is the purpose of using labels so elastic in definition yet usually so pejorative in application? Outside the internet in Britain today their use could lead either to a visit from the police or to a visit to a libel lawyer.

            A “racist” can “mean” someone who has noticed that people are different or someone who would like to lynch every “black” person on the planet. An “anti-semite” can “mean” someone who wonders (for example) whether the number of Jews in Hollywood could have any effect on movie content or someone who wants to gas everyone on the planet with some “Jewish” ancestry.

            Eventually, using these labels could become as pointless as a blindfolded child at a party pinning a tail on a donkey.

          • david ascher

            A racist is somebody who sees people not as individuals or as members of groups based upon their height or weight or wealth but primarily as members of something called ‘race’.. The English once called the Irish, the French, the Germans, the Danes, the Jews, the Arabs races. Some people still refer to people of other nationalities as being of different races and having different capabilities and characteristics – “intelligence”, “athletic ability”, “cunning”, “honesty”, “deviousness”, “bloodlust”, “immorality”, etc. All of these characteristics are obviously culturally defined. We don’t have to look too far back in history to see how “savage” the “English race” is. Yet, somehow, with essentially the same genetic makeup as they had just a few hundred years ago, the same “race” is “civilized”.

            There is clearly no reason at all to even consider that genes have anything to do with the characteristics, both positive and negative, that racists are so eager to apply to various “races” and the ‘truth’ of which some ‘scientists’ are always available to find ‘evidence’.

          • David Ashton

            There is “clearly no reason at all to EVEN TO CONSIDER” that the the sun goes round our flat earth, despite what “some ‘scientists'” foolishly “claim”.

            It is quite obvious that racist discrimination rather than musculature is responsible for the average cultural superiority of East African athletes over Inuit or Pygmy contestants.

            There is no reason to suppose that all children in school are not equally competent at all subjects, and that geniuses and “retards” are the consequence entirely of the actions of parents and teachers.

            It is just a cultural construction that young males are more likely to commit crimes of violence than elderly females, probably the result of police persecution resulting from the ideology of the capitalist class.

            All human beings on the planet descend from a small family that came out of an ark a few thousand years ago, which is why there are no such thing as “races”, everyone has the same genes, and only idiotic Nazi sluts from under stones, like David Ashton, would dare to suggest otherwise.

          • david ascher

            I doubt if East African athletes would compete as well as Inuits if the task were racing across the ice or shooting a seal through the eye from over a mile away. Does that mean that the East African athlete is suddenly an inferior athlete to the Inuit?

            You shouldn’t be so hard on yourself. “Slut”? A term I would not use.

          • David Ashton

            You did use it to describe me. Check the records.

            Now goodbye and good riddance.

          • david ascher

            gadzooks, man. Chill.My usage was a reference (with humorous intent) to an old repeating Saturday Night Live sketch with Dan Aykroyd and Jane Curtin that I thought everybody in the English speaking world knew about. It was, itself, a parody of a repeated bit at the end of the American ‘newsmagazine’ show “60 Minutes” which pitted a nice ‘liberal’ woman (Shana Alexander) against a less polite ‘conservative’ man (James Kirkpatrick).

            I’d assumed that somebody as well read as yourself would have been familiar with this cultural tidbit. Of course, I don’t think any less of your intelligence because you are ignorant of it. And soooo sensitive. Most of the Englishmen I’ve known have had a much thicker skin and could take abuse as well as pass it out.

            And I thought we were having such a nice conversation. I hope I at least gave you some things to think about. Cheerio.

    • Svigor

      Blacks jumped the border into South Africa throughout the Apartheid years. They couldn’t keep blacks away with a stick, lol. It’s only logical to conclude that the oppression blacks faced in SA was less onerous than that they faced in the rest of sub-Saharan Africa.

  • madasafish

    What a person writes is interesting What they do is more important..

    Mandela acted for peace and reconciliation when he left prison,, no matter what he wrote inside it.

    • David Ashton

      There is something in this – especially his direct negotation with leading Afrikaner nationalists and big-business, but that is all that can be said, and it is less significant when one takes into account Western-government influence and waning Soviet influence.

      What is really worrying is not so much his personal pro-terrorism record, but the hysterical levels of fabricated media adulation which serves a continuous purpose framed by the Cultural Marxist agenda-networking on “race, gender, class”. This was foreseen by the German philosopher-historian Oswald Spengler exactly 80 years ago in the final chapter of his “Hour of Decision”.

    • KEVOD

      Yes you are quite correct, apart from ordering the ‘execution’ of all the ‘black traitors’ who stood with the whites during his incarceration. Clearly the restrictions placed on the dissemination of news just before and after his release worked well.
      To be balanced I must point out that with age comes a certain amount of wisdom.
      Nelson’s poor attempt at writing his own personal “Murder Manifesto” for war and destruction was written during a time when he was younger and far less wise. Moderation comes to most men as they slowly approach the eleventh hour.
      The only other historical fact that is hanging in space,cut off from it’s roots of origin, is the fact of Apartheid. Hendrik Verwoed is credited with being the architect. The hard truth, especially for the International Community to acknowledge, is the fact that Verwoed was only responsible (or irresponsible) for the Legislation of Apartheid. The British and other ‘invaders’ of this Continent must be given credit for the architecture of that oppressive system,
      Other than a ‘new sport’ developed by British Soldiers – ie “shooting bushmen” – the major conflict in Africa was ongoing black on black tribal warfare. The separation or ‘apartheid’ was designed to keep these warring factions apart, But of course, as the old saying goes – ‘the path to hell is paved with good intentions’. This applies to every ex-colonial country in Africa, not just South Africa.
      This same system applies to every country that was ever invaded by outsiders. When you steal from people, you expect opposition, so a policy of separation is a prime requirement.(or in some cases – extermination). So as not to be accused of being biased – lets include other robbers in the picture. America is a prime example, and then we have Spain – and how many others can you think of?
      Israel perhaps, for those who value truth above illusion, and it never stops.
      Through ego and arrogance the strong will always take from the weak – it is the way of Man from the time of recorded history. When things go wrong, the focus is directed at a single incident or single person – blinding all to the root causes of all such problems on planet earth. In fact – EVERY PERSON IS GUILTY OF AIDING AND ABETTING – EITHER BY CONDUCT OR BY INDIFFERENCE.
      We carve this planet up, we put up fences. We claim this and we claim that. We place some artificial or arbitrary value on land, based primarily on greed, AND CALL IT ‘GOVERNMENT’. A few greedy individuals play the game of life for us. We have become satiated, like pigs wallowing in cream, whist the weaker are left without.
      When will this Man of Adam realize that we are nothing but a scar on this planet? When will he realize that he owns absolutely nothing, and when will he realize that he is but a tenant here, WITH A VERY SHORT TERM LEASE?
      There are an infinite number of arguments about such philosophy – from all the players – and they are all wrong. The proof of this is our rapidly deteriorating world! We are the rapists and destroyer. The do gooders and bunny huger’s sing the right songs, hoping for salvation from above, but are too stupid to realize that their only salvation lies in there own hands.
      You do realize that there is a bottom to every downward slope?
      So what, we all have to die? But don’t worry about the illusions you have about death – worry about what comes after, and may that thought terrify your every waking moment from this day on…
      Time to smell the coffee even if you still slumber in illusion.

      • madasafish

        Lengthy reply mostly off topic..

        And ” In fact – EVERY PERSON IS GUILTY OF AIDING AND ABETTING – EITHER BY CONDUCT OR BY INDIFFERENCE.” is tosh.. Rubbish.

        Typical carp to remove individual responsibility…

        • KEVOD

          Sadly you are blinded by ego and arrogance – but you have a right to express your opinion.
          The very core of this discussion revolves around reality and illusion – and Mandela is used only as a catalyst to drive the weak minded to express their opinions.Lengthy reply right on the topic people run away from. You can run, but there is no where to hide.Not to remove but to include individual responsibility. A few acknowledge, most deny.
          Now tell me why you believe you are innocent and deserve life?.

          • madasafish

            Thank you for your ad hominem remarks and confirming my opinion of you.

      • Zain Ebrahim

        In your first sentence you wrote that he ordered “the ‘execution’ of all the ‘black traitors’ who stood with the whites during his incarceration”. Please provide evidence for this. Thanks

        • KEVOD

          Zane, With no disrespect, either you are not a South African, or you have a poor memory. Alternatively, perhaps you were too young when these events took place.
          One of the most brutal and savage attacks that I have ever seen was televised by the SABC showing the necklassing of a ‘black traitor’.by blacks.(on instruction.) Most excellent for the minds of young children.”With Petrol and Tyres and Matches, we will liberate our People”. (Winnie Mandela)
          There is a difference between you and me – I knew Mandela, and what was going on. His cronies also, Goldreigh and Wolpie, and of course my deary departed Helen Suzman – who did try to inject some moderation into a core group of anarchists, but failed. As such,albeit post mortem, she remains forever guilty, by inaction.
          Had she acted appropriately, more likely than not, Nelson would not have gone to prison, and negotiation could have begun 27 years earlier. without all the killing. But who can say – we can only speculate. Suggest you read this newly discovered ‘Manifesto’ in full. You will read the words of a personally embittered individual, that only time could moderate.
          I am not biased for any reason at all. I see all human beings as individual struggling souls. My compassion encompasses the entire human race. But there are instructions, that if followed, lead to harmony amongst people, and Laws that keep people safe. When Man turns his back on these, and writes his own self serving instructions on how to live, and his own self serving Laws, because he finds the Universal Laws too restrictive – then the system topples, as it has. Each and every nation of people that ever lived on this planet received the same Laws and Instructions. Some civilizations persisted for tens of thousands of years, whilst others enjoyed only a brief existence. The Jury is still out on the current population, but it does not look good. Fear,or don’t, but the verdict will soon be made known to all of mankind. Please do not view my words as coming from some religious prophet of doom – nothing could be further from the truth. Listen to NONE who speak from a platform of man made religion – for they will deceive your mind. Search for truth, it hides in plain sight. Remember, in spite of the fact that you are connected to everything, when you leave, you leave alone. It is the nature of the game, and your daily ‘free will’ actions carve your own future and final destiny..Unless you allow others to carve your future for you, and even if you do, it remains always-by your own free will.
          You must find your own truths- I may not help you with that.

        • KEVOD

          Why – you writing a book or something?

  • Michael Simpson

    Given his popularity, he could have done pretty much he what he wanted once elected president, yet rather than usher in socialism he enacted a series of liberalising market reforms designed to attract foreign capital. But don’t let facts get in the way of your ‘unique’ angle.

    • Andre Reid Jacobs

      He could not have unless he wanted SA to become another failed state where the blacks of SA would have been in the mess that 98% of African countries are. Secondly dummy he could not because there was a negotiated constitution. Do you know what that is?

      • Michael Simpson

        Since when has a negotiated constitution stopped a monstrous communist ideologue in the past?

  • D Whiggery

    At last, a bit of balance. Someone tell the Guardian.

    • David Ashton

      The Guardian, The Independent and The Observer are not interested in publishing these minor corrections to the cult of “liberal-leftism”. And just look at the January BBC “History” Magazine on Our Lord the Holy Mandiba, his global worshippers and four gospel writers. Remember how Mao was worshipped by western “students” and then read Frank Dikotter’s book on the “liberation” of China. Post-apartheid SA is no Kingdom of Heaven, if you look at the murder and rape statistics, the poverty and STDs.

      • david ascher

        David, you ignorant slut. Tell us how China was Shangri-la before 1948, or Cuba before 1961, or SA during Apartheid. And then all those dirty people messed those places up… commies. Grow up and think you idiot.

        • David Ashton

          Normally I ignore mere abuse, like “slut” and “idiot”, which of course sadly so often characterise “liberal” pretensions to adult rational discourse.

          What research have you done in any of these fields? I have spent many decades studying communist and non-communist literature, and speaking with people from all three countries you cite. It is not incumbent upon me to deny any faults or miseries in pre-communist Cuba, China or South Africa, but it would be useful for you to correct your own immature ignorance by giving some thought even to Castro’s Cuba (which I did not mention), perhaps by investigating the concentration-camps for gays and the assassination of youngsters that occurred during the early period of “liberation”.

          • david ascher

            Please accept my sincere apologies for my obscure Saturday Night Live reference. I have spent many decades studying communist and anti-communist (be honest, that is what you meant by ‘non-communist’) literature as well. Of course, there are criticisms – some very major ones – that one could make of China, Cuba, Russia, and South Africa, after their revolutions (or whatever you want to call what occurred in S.A.) Of course, in the United States, after our revolution, we made no mistakes and no innocents were killed or exiled… Just like in France or England under Cromwell.

            The revolutions in Mexico and Bolivar’s campaigns to kick out the Spanish were all nice affairs and no innocents were inconvenienced in the least.

            Reactionary ruling elites rarely give up power just because they are asked politely. Revolutions are terrible things but the alternative is usually worse for most people.

          • David Ashton

            Fair enough – you see, polite debate works best. I now agree with much of what you say. Revolutions not only often devour their own, but simply exchange equally undesirable though ideologically different elites. La Vendee was pretty grim, as was Cromwell’s action in Ireland. The chaos in Russia is not a pretty sight – the anti-Semites will say that the People who put the Reds in are much the same Peopleas those who put them out (the Yeltsin’s US advisers, the oligarchs & “Russian” Mafyia, &c) – but China might get better, I hope so, though I am not one of those who wants “Yellow” to replace “Western” world supremacy. I am afraid that southern Africa may not progress so rapidly, partly because i do not think that each and every human population on the planet are identical in mental ability.

          • david ascher

            You didn’t actually have to say that you don’t think all populations on the planet are identical in mental ability. That much has been obvious without having to read too closely between the lines. However, you are simply wrong. There is no scientific evidence whatsoever that human populations (what I guess you are being careful not to call ‘races’) differ in terms of their mental abilities – unless you mean something like folks who live in Arizona are better at spotting coyotes in the desert than people who live in New York City.

          • David Ashton

            Genetic variation among human populations has been conclusively demonstrated by Cavalli-Sforza’s direct DNA research. To believe that all human populations, who have evolved in selective adaptation to diverse environments, are nevertheless identical in brain function while different in other respects, is an act of faith, shown long ago to be mathematically improbable by Morant in a UNESCO paper.

            Now, for relevant evidence, I suggest you begin with R. T. Osborne et al (eds), “Human Variation: The Biopsychology of Age, Race, and Sex” (NY: Academic Press, 1978), and follow it up with J. Philippe Rushton, “Race, Evolution, and Behavior” (Port Huron: Charles Darwin Research Institute, 2000 ed), John R. Baker, “Race” (Burlington: Ostara, 2012 ed [these “racist” publishers rescued this masterpiece from the obscurity into which it was promptly consigned by the OUP after leftwing threats]);Vincent Sarich & Frank Miele, “Race: The Reality of Human Differences” (Cambridge: Westview Press, 2005), and Nicholas Wade, “Before the Dawn” (NY: Penguin, 2006). Cornelius Connolly’s pages on the external morphology of the negro brain (1950) are difficult to trace.

          • david ascher

            DNA research into “mental ability” makes absolutely no sense. “Mental ability” is a squishy, virtually meaningless term to start with. To attempt to relate a meaningless term to DNA is like attempting to find the genes for “niceness” or “attractiveness”. These attributes are cultural constructs with very different meanings in different cultures.

            Obviously most people who live in Euramerica today have much more “mental ability” (is that what the racists are now calling the discredited “intelligence”?) than their own ancestors. Their ‘unintelligent’ ancestors from 500 years ago were unable to drive a car, cook with a microwave, or even use an elevator, let alone take an intelligence test. And where do you think all those extra smarty genes come from?

            Less than 100 years ago “psychology” “proved” that Jews, Poles, Italians, and Hungarians (among others) were less intelligent than Englishmen and Germans. And the Chinese were not even worth measuring they were so obviously unintelligent brutes. Funny how so many of those groups got smart in just a few generations.

            DNA studies and “brain science” applied to what are clearly cultural constructs are simply the latest iteration of phrenology – bullshit that supports what ‘everybody knows to be true’ masquerading as “science”. These things have a run of 30 years or so before everybody laughs at their obvious deficiencies.

            Don’t be taken in by pseudoscientific crap just because it supports what you want to be true.

          • David Ashton

            Cavalli-Sforza avoided the genetic aspects of intelligence, possibly out of political discretion.

            Having read much “pseudoscientic crap” from “anti-racist” writers I am already familiar with the routine claptrap reference to “cultural constructs” and “phrenology”; the latter a diversionary Aunt Sally to steer people away from the critiques by serious scientists of Lewontin, Kamin, Gould, Rose, Klineberg, &c. When you have examined these as carefully as I have read the “egalitarian/ environmentalist” publications, then you can come back with the reprimand in your last sentence.

            Just think hard about the irrelevant absurdity of your statement regarding the inability of people 500 years ago to use modern inventions.

            Science moves on, shedding past mistakes and hopefully refining its methods and results as it develops. This applies to human biology and post-Sapiens micro-evolution; for example, the origins of the Ainu, or racial variations in reactions to medication and diet.

          • david ascher

            “Just think hard about the irrelevant absurdity of your statement regarding the inability of people 500 years ago to use modern inventions.”

            Perhaps my point was not clear enough to you. I can understand how, given your strong commitments to racist beliefs, that it might be hard to understand how the concepts of ‘intelligence’ or ‘mental ability’ are cultural concepts.

            If you are familiar with the case of the wild boy of Aveyron who believed to have been ‘raised by wolves’. He was first diagnosed as deaf (and therefor of inferior intelligence, like all other deaf people) because he spoke and understood no French.

            Does that help? or still too subtle? This wasn’t because the French in 1798 were less intelligent than the French are today. This was because ‘intelligence’ is a culturally determined concept.

            Move to an Inuit village and see how stupid you are considered because you have no idea how to catch a seal and how you must be blind since you can’t spot a seal on the ice from 2 miles.

          • David Ashton

            None of this gets to grips with what I really think or what the biological scientists and psychologists I have quoted really think. I find your semantic juggling, perpetual sarcasm, bad manners and – just possibly unintentional – irrelevances hardly worth my time. So do some research yourself outside the closed box you call your culturally determined mind. I don’t intend to comment any more, and am quite content to let other readers judge between us.

          • david ascher

            I happen to have studied with Kamin. He was a very very capable can careful scientist. Of course, his devastating analysis and critique of Cyril Burt’s twin studies which was the lynchpin of the study of ‘intelligence’ did not sit well with the racists who needed everybody to believe that ‘intelligence’ was mostly something that (white) people were born with and couldn’t be ‘improved’ through interventions like early childhood education or improved nutrition or anything else. They struck back at Kamin with a vengeance – generating much more heat than light. I’ve seen Burt’s papers and Burt’s work is either naive or dishonest and indefensible garbage that included data that was ‘corrected’ to match his prejudices, most likely fabricated (based on sound statistical analysis) and ‘meaningless’ – as when he describes his group of separated twins, many of whom lived in the same little English village as their twin whom they met in elementary school, noticed their resemblance, and become close friends as having different environments.

            In de fensible. (That’s how we spell in the US)

          • David Ashton

            Yes, I do know that US spellings occasionally differ from UK ones.

            If you have seen “Burt’s papers” you must be a very lucky man, because they were taken away when he died by another critic of his work and largely disappeared.

            The rounding up of Burt’s figures were first noticed and criticised by Arthur Jensen, just as the first exposure of the Piltdown fraud came from Carleton Coon, but two others claimed the credit.

            There have been many twin studies since Burt, quite separate and independent.

            Kamin’s competence and clarity of exposition does not seem to have rubbed off on you, only his extravagant assumption about the nature of intelligence.

            If my comments have not all appeared on this thread, you can find them by pressing on my name and reading them from the Disqus archive. I think you are a “true believer” as much as any lunatic “racist”, but I still recommend that you read the books I mentioned in two replies, and would add only just for fun my late friend Nathaniel Weyl’s intemperate “Karl Marx – Racist”.

            Other than that I have no more to say to or about you, signing off for the very last time on “Holocaust Day” 2014 at 12.20 PM GMT (That’s how we tell the time in the UK)

          • david ascher

            sigh… I am happy to end our discussion about the ‘nature of intelligence’. But for the record, I was referring to Burt’s published work, not his raw materials; Kamin had access to Burt’s original data – prior to Burt’s death and that is when I studied with Kamin; Kamin was responding to the Jensen’s (and Shockley’s) publications – mostly in the mass media – ‘educting’ the public about the futility of programs attempting to provide early education (as well as nutrition, etc) to black children, since “scientific studies”, like those of Sir Cyril Burt, showed that the measured “intelligence” of black children was pretty much determined by their genetic makeup

            I find it ‘interesting’ that you don’t even pause to think about why you repeatedly find it convenient to refer to “Jewish” things when addressing me. It strikes me that you have decided that I am Jewish (I don’t know upon what basis) and that, to you, is ‘what’ I am. Your racism seems to be all encompassing.

          • David Ashton

            Holocaust Memorial Day is a big event in Britain but if anyone prefers I shall simply give today’s date of January 27. Perhaps that too will make me an “all encompassing racist” insensitive to the victims of antisemitism? Who knows or cares, except Mr Ascher?

          • david ascher

            You seem to be having a lot of trouble ending this discussion with me. And I with you. You make it so much fun.

            Seriously, though, would you have referred to the date as “Holocaust Memorial Day” in your note if you didn’t think I am Jewish? Maybe you just had Jews on your mind because you are so into Holocaust Memorial Day or because you were thinking about Kamin (the, to you, Jewish “intelligence-denier”).

            I guess we must be done… or do you insist upon having the last word? I’ve been told that is a bad habit.

          • David Ashton

            Well, I don’t intend to let you get away with the last…smear. You prefer to imagine thoughts in my head, rather than answer the words on the page, just like a “Jewish conspiracy” or “commies under the bed” fruitcake. words. Having denied and then suggested and then denied that I am anti-Jewish and suggested that I was a Nazi or maybe a crypto-Nazi, it was difficult to keep up with the abuse, you might be pleased to note, I felt, that I was aware of posting on the chief anti-racism day which engages our schools and media in England. As for Jews and intelligence, some Jewish writers, like non-Jewish writers, have expressed different views, with Herrnstein, Glad, Garn and Itzkoff taking a position close to mine. Anyway, that’s it.

          • david ascher

            Am I missing some attempted ironic humor (humour) here? Which smear do you mean? the one about you having a compulsion to have the last word? or the factual statement about your seeming to be much more aware than most people of everybody’s “race”?

            I love that you are able to tell me who is Jewish and who is not with so much authority. I don’t recall seeing where these guys advertised their ethnicity (or is ‘race’?)

            . I don’t think of myself as a really mean person, in general. But when somebody tries to hide their racism behind pseudoscience and claims that they could not possibly be a racist because they have nothing but respect for people of “superior races” (as proven by ‘science’, of course), I feel compelled to respond in the hope that they might see how they are racist.

            If you would stop sputtering like a Colonel Blimp stereotype of an English twit, I might be able to get myself to stop enjoying upsetting you. But you really got get off that racist thing already. It is not at all becoming.

  • Tom Burroughes

    The issue remains: if he was such a hardline Marxist, how come his time as President of South Africa was marked by a desire to attract inward investment, do deals, and not alienate international business? Sure, there has been more regulation, and attempts to introduce a sort of affirmative action scheme, etc, but this is a far, far cry from the economic vandalism and thuggery of Mugabe.

    The real and enduring problem is that Mandela did not really leave South Africa in the hands of those who understand liberal free market economics, or at least, too few such people are in power now.

    Mandela made mistakes and said and wrote some pretty dumb things. What is remarkable, however, is his capacity, however late in life, to learn.

    • Rocksy

      Mugabe didn’t have the good sense and foresight to have himself imprisoned so that he could have his memoirs smuggled out to be made into a bestseller and movie.

    • DB1954

      Unlike Barack Obama, the one man who can’t or won’t learn.

      • CaptainCurmudgeon

        Both Communists…they don’t build…they destroy.

  • anyfool

    There’s no accounting for taste, but one wonders if Barack Obama would have said that if he’d known his hero batted for the opposition during the Cold War
    Judging by the way he is batting for theocratic Saudi princes and his previous beliefs he would have been with Mandela on the side of the USSR.

    • stewball

      He seems to like the Muslim brotherhood. Must be his Muslimness getting the better of him.

      • thewaspman

        Is Obama not Irish????

  • volker_lives

    Mandela was relatively little known in the 1970s and was not obviously an ANC ‘poster boy’. Indeed the ANC was in eclipse, superceded by the far more radical SASO, led by Steve Biko, and the Black Peoples Convention. It was Helen Suzman and Donald Woods who promoted Mandela in the 1970s. With SASO and BPC crushed by the Nationalist government, the ANC one again became the main players. Only then was Mandela adopted as poster boy, in the early 1980s.
    Mandela is a prime example of history being ‘constructed’ by the ‘winners’. And then there’s the Pan African Congress, the main opposition in the late 1950’s and early 1960’s, who have been erased from the script!

    • Michael Simpson

      Well yeah, he was isolated in prison at the time. It was after the police shot and killed hundreds of school children in the 1976 that he began to re-emerge as a symbol of anti-apartheid resistance. The Pan African Congress was an African wide movement, hence why it was subsumed in South Africa under the more immediate agenda of the ANC.

      • Viljee

        ‘hundreds of school children’ statements like this just exposes the ignorance of a lot of people!

        SA History Online puts the number of dead at 200, far higher than the official figure of 23.

        Read more: http://www.southafrica.info/about/history/soweto-150606.htm#.Ut1pn0f8ISg#ixzz2qxrB7kz6

        • Michael Simpson

          You know you’re in the company of a nut when they’re quibbling the death total of massacred children.

          • DeltaNaught

            Respectfully disagree…. as horrible as either scenario is, there’s a significant difference between 23 and ‘hundreds’ of children being massacred.

            If facts don’t matter why not say thousands were killed?… or millions even?

            And yes, I realise you posted a year ago…

      • volker_lives

        You seem to be straying into something you know little about. The PAC, despite its name, was South African. It organised the Sharpeville pass demonstration which led to the massacre.
        As for Mandela being isolated in the 1970s, this is relative. Helen Suzman visited regularly, as reported in the ‘Rand Daily Mail’ at the time. Mandela’s name did not feature in protests of the time, Goven Mbeki and indeed Winnie Mandela being among others who were much better known.

        • Michael Simpson

          No, I fully understand what the PAC was. W.E.B. DuBois organised the first conference. He was an American. It had a broad brief pushing for wider decolonisation of Africa and the West Indies. I believe you’re mistakenly referring to the Pan AfricanIST Conference. Happy to correct you though.

          • volker_lives

            Point taken, but when it was a force, the PAC was African not Africanist.

    • David Ashton

      The PAC are limbering up for a return. Watch that space!

  • Persuasive

    I’d say the jury is out on this life. He may as likely have been swept up by the currents of history, allowing himself to go along in order to get along with inevitability. Still the record needs to inform about these realities so that others can make informed opinions about future calamities and how best to navigate those.

  • JuneF

    Today is the 16th January 2014, your article is dated 18th January 2014????

    • BJC70

      It’s perplexing isn’t it. In Australia it’s the 17th. When I first noticed this oddity I wondered if the earth had changed rotation while I slept, but there is nothing in the news to that effect.

      • JuneF

        LOL. The time difference can be a problem. When the phone rings at 4.30 a.m. I do not get into a panic and think that it must be bad news. My brother in law in Oz forgets that there is a time difference!!

        • BJC70

          Of course the 18th is meaning the date when the magazine comes out with this article in it.
          There could be added line saying something like – ‘Articles can appear online before the print edition of the date below.’
          We are not the only ones to be puzzled by this and wont be the last I imagine. And it’s just an irresistible way to have a little fun.

          • JuneF

            Now it is the 18th. Ha ha.

          • David Ashton

            Like the Prophet Joshua, only Our Lord Nelson Mandiba could stop the sun in the sky. Next up, the Assumption of Our Lady Winnie the Necklace as Queen of Heaven.

  • Roy

    This is the type of manuscript the PC brigade would dearly like to burn to save their treacherous hides.

    • David Ashton

      The trouble is that the PC brigade make a claim to facts and reason, whereas they are a cult that evidence can rarely shake. “Liberalism is the ideology of western suicide” (James Burnham).

  • John welsh

    I recommend Stephen Ellis’s book, “External mission, the ANC in exile”. There you will learn that Nelson was one of the better ones in the organisation.
    Zuma and others such as Joe Modise – Mandela’s defence minister were commie thugs.

  • Curnonsky

    Yes, Obama would be shocked to learn that the he admired a charismatic black leader whose ghost-written autobiography was riddled with self-serving fabrications, whose radical leftist past and association with terrorists was conveniently swept under the rug, whose messiah image was created and maintained by a bedazzled international press, whose sympathy for thuggish Third World communist regimes was openly displayed and who once in office tempered his ideology in favor of consolidating his and his cronies’ power. That would truly blow his mind.

    • Mad Dog

      Obama would be shocked – shocked – to find out there is gambling going on here. Uh, I mean that he inadvertently admired a communist who embraced violent hope and change. Uh, I mean, violent change.

      • iamlg34

        What do you think you will create when you hate? When you steal and when you oppress? People with nothing will collectively fight back for there is power in unity. You created the communist. If you loved Africans and you came and you didnt steal the land you might have found yourself as the king of Africa. Black people would embrace you and give you their love. But you brought death and disease from Europe and nearly killed us all but today you want to put all your focus on Mandela being a communist. I have not seen one Boer on here saying that our arrival to Africa was not done the right way. You came to destroy and take over and not to join so you can’t blame the blacks for fighting back and unfortunately for you destroying the entire black race is not easy.

        • DB1954

          Actually, the Boers came to build a new nation for themselves– a place where they could worship God as they understood him and to be left alone both by European powers and the blacks to the north who soon came to despise the white Boer but to envy what he had accomplished for himself.

          • iamlg34

            and you sir are delusional or maybe downright crazy. Oh we wanted to build our little kingdom in heart of Africa… oh nobody owned that land oh. Are you kidding me? lol lol lol Are you sure you are not a comedian? WTF do you think we were doing down there? running around like chickens? You brought your people to an occupied land owned by blacks under black law.

            Thank you for posting now the whole world can see how crazy the Boer is. This is only going to end with war. Just get your guns ready because there nothing else to talk about with you racist fucks!

          • DB1954

            I did no such thing, as I am not South African, Boer or otherwise. I assure you I’m no comedian; rather, I’m a historian. You, by contrast, are a follower of a satanic cult leader from hell–Nelson Mandela, the savage, beastly racist and communist whose murderous schemes go on today. You’ve proven your ignorance on a grand scale for all the world to see.

          • iamlg34

            AD 800 – 1400Larger farming communities of the Iron Age settle in the Limpopo River area, marking the settlement of Nguni-speaking people in South Africa (later split to form Xhosa, Zulu, Swazi and Ndebele groups). Their move down to South Africa from areas in West Africa (mainly) was possibly driven by too dry a climate there during the Medieval Warm Epoch, between 900 and 1290.1030 – 1290Middle Iron Age people begin to establish what is now known as the Mapungubwe kingdom. The Southern Terrace below Mapungubwe hilltop that was inhabited from around AD 1030 to 1290 was rediscovered by archeologists in the 1930s.1300 – c. 1500Nguni communities settle along the south-eastern seaboard and in the Drakensberg interior.The Highveld interior becomes populated by Sotho speaking people (later split to form South Sotho (Basuto and Sesotho), the West Sotho (Tswana), and the North Sotho (Sepedi))The Khoisan are established as the dominant power in the Southern and South-Western Cape regions.European’s settle in South Africa for the first time and begin to further colonize and trade with the Khoikhoi at the cape, by the middle this century the first Khoikhoi-Dutch war is fought and slavery is entrenched.

            Throughout the rest of the country Nguni and Sotho groups begin splitting, as a result of strengthening chiefdoms, into the groups that we know today (Zulu, Ndebele, Tswana, Xhosa etc).

            1601Joris van Spilbergen, leading a Dutch fleet, casts anchor in the Bay of Saldaha (Aguada da Saldanha) and names it Table Bay after Table Mountain, while the original name is transferred to the present Saldanha Bay. 1 November, James Lancaster, in command of the first East India Company fleet of England, rounds the Cape again on his way to the East.160220 March , The Vereenigde Landsche Ge-Oktroyeerde Oost-Indische Compagnie (VOC) trading company receives a charter from the States General, the highest authority in the Republic of the United Netherlands, which entails a trading monopoly and the right to acquire and govern Dutch possessions in the Orient for a period of 21 years. Extended in 1623 and 1647.1615Sir Thomas Roe attempts to land some deported British criminals at the Cape, but those who are not drowned or killed by Khoikhoi are soon removed from the Cape and the scheme is abandoned.

            _———————————————————-

            FROM THE MOMENT YOU LAID DOWN YOUR ANCHORS WE WERE FIGHTING TO DEFEND OUR LAND! FROM THE MOMENT WHITES ARRIVED THEY FACED RESISTANCE FROM THE LOCAL POPULATION. So where is the so called uninhabited land you are talking of SIR?

          • iamlg34

            African tribes are were very diverse in their culture and way of life. I’m from The Rozvi tribes of Manyikaland and we have always been farmers. We heard cattle and I still have land passed down for generations and although I grew up in the city holidays were in the countryside using the same techniques passed down to me.

            What is sad is that no matter what I tell you, you guys deny it as if you were there with my fathers.

            You remember how the Native Americans perished? They didn’t have cattle and were not immune to cattle born diseases so when white settlers arrived in America the sickness did most of the killing. In Africa we were already herding cattle. Cows are not a foreign animal to Africa. So we didn’t die. Infact what stopped the Boers from going north was Malaria. You settled by the rivers where Malaria flourishes and a lot of your people died because of that stalling your northern migration. You had to learn from the locals about how to deal with malaria. Anyway my point is we are all human. We can all achieve the same goals. I am black and I have done everything I have put my mind to except convince racist people that we are the same. You can carry on bullshitting yourselves all you want but Africa will be free of racism and oppression from you. Good luck in your ignorance.

          • whiskypappa wisekey

            You are just a stupid ignorant black twat. You cannot survive without the white man. I pray a rhino fuck you in the ass with it’s horn. All you can do, is destroy, nothing else

          • tommie

            What? Are you for real? I only have to take medicine for malaria if I go say up north. Malaria is the biggest killer on the continent, and if wasn’t for the whites man’s medicine, you would all be dead. Bullshitting? The only bullshitters on the continent is black people who think they govern themselves without the help of white people. So the next time you visit a pharmacy or a supermarket, think of where it comes from, noble savage.

          • Perseus Slade

            Sadly, land does not actually belong to anybody.
            It is taken on a “bags first” basis
            and has to be held by force.
            There has to be a community with
            the will and the strength to keep it.
            The rest is bullshit.

            And you are right about malaria.
            That`s what kept the Chinese from expanding south.

          • Cymrugel

            You do not have to justify your existence in your own land.
            Maybe your ancestors way of life was primitive, possibly even barbaric and could have benefitted from some input from outside.

            That’s hardly an argument for pushing you off your land, stealing it and reducing you to slaves in your own home.
            The settlers did not come to help you. They came to take what belonged to you and make it their own by force and that is what they proceeded to do.

            Of course other peoples with black skin did the same to each other. Modern day white S Africans have as much right to be there as anyone else but they do not have the right to make themselves into some sort of ruling caste or to enslave the rest, which is what apartheid attempted to do.

            The idiot above is trying to make a case that being technologically more advanced entitled Europeans to simply take over. It did not.

            Your should not tacitly accept his arguments by engaging with them on the same terms.

          • drgrumpy

            Just ignore the racists. One thing they dislike, big time, is being ignored.

          • Cymrugel

            You are wasting your breath.

            Many posters on this site are naked racists and right wing reactionaries.

            They regard anyone who challenges the status quo as a dangerous extremist, or crank, regardless of how just their cause may be.

            If the had their way apartheid would still exist and we would have “no blacks no Irish” posters in the windows of UK guest houses.

            They do not care about anything but their own welfare and the rest of the world can go hang.

            Left to them we would still be living in the middle ages.

          • Frikkie

            Hey iamlg34 I hope you are ready because we are not just going to sit and see how you scum murder us every day. If it was not for the settlers that came to Africa you would still be in skins running around shooting game with your bows and arrows. And while I am at it you would not have had your computer to talk all this rubbish. What have you done to improve your way of live since you took over this beautiful Country that had/have every thing. You keep on complaining and playing the blame game. Get over it and run this Country as you should AFTER ALL YOU ARE IN CHARGE NOW!!!!.

          • morton

            Blacks had no concept of land ownership prior to the arrival of the Boer. in fact blacks new only ownership of cattle and women. you occupied an area only long enough to over graze it, then you moved on, pushing out the others who occupied the land you wanted! and if they refused you simply killed them. you had no written language, no mathematics, no sciences, no development projects and no crops! yes even the mielie was brought to SA by the whites, as was the tomato, onion, carrot, potato, pea, bean, as was the road, school, hospital, house, bridge, telephone, TV, radio…..oh hell the list is too long for this page. give us some of your inventions please!!!! moron!

          • iamlg34

            who raised you? You are the biggest moron on the planet. lol See folks when you choose not to learn about other cultures you raise ignorant individuals such as this man. I am not even upset but I will say that I cannot debate with you sir. Not when you are so far lost like this. Goodbye!

          • morton

            Struck a nerve have i? dont be scared moron, list your black inventions please!!!! tell us all about Mr Shaka’s policy on Education or Mr Dingaan’s policy on Infrastructure development or Mr Mpande’s policy on Agriculture. let me have it please!

          • blondie

            All copied and adapted from the whites of other countries.
            Who help to free Mandela? Who had rallies in London to free Mandela? Mostly whites. There is nothing wrong to admit there are some good whites who has helped the blacks worldwide. Oh! then there are the whites who oppressed and is still oppressing the blacks.

          • morton

            Mandela was murdering, bomb planting, thieving terrorist! and what about the blacks that were oppressed and are still being oppressed by other blacks accross Africa? as was the case in south Africa before the white man came and freed them from those crazy dictators called tribal kings! who were killing and eating them or selling off as slaves to the Arabs. the last 20 years are living proof that niether mandela or any black person, can successfully run a country! look how obama has fucked the USA up!

          • whiskypappa wisekey

            You surely have a black in you at night. The white man ALWAYS tried to help the fucking lazy black get off their asses and work!!!!!. Rather kill yourself, you are worse than a blue waffle

          • Sait Likitis

            You did not even know what the word law meant a hole** You are as blinded as the rest but the newly imagined history being taught – if of course your understand anything

          • WrinklyOldGit

            Did Africans actually own the land they tilled, or was it all owned by the local tribal chief who doled it out in return for favours or prowess in battles?
            Mandela belonged to the leading most powerful tribal group – land owners and rich relatively speaking, strange that he was a hard line communist terrorist caught with a bomb in his bag.

          • KEVOD

            Some of what you say is true. But reverse your thinking concerning the OWNERSHIP of land. We are but short term tenants on this planet, and the reality is that we ‘own’ nothing. Don’t confuse ‘Title’ with Ownership. People today do not till the soil and plant for the benefit of their fellow man. That is secondary in a capitalist system. Their primary goal is self enrichment. Did the Boer then, or does the Boer now, GIVE to the needy and the weak? Hell no not without extracting payment fist. If this is what your god teaches you, then you worship a false god and reside in Sin.
            Communism can only thrive where poverty and hunger prevail, and it’s easy to get poor people to believe in a false system that offers some hope. Who were responsible for creating a system where amongst the vast majority, poverty was maintained? The Boer kept them hungry, as a source of cheap labour, and every white benefited from that for a long time.
            On the other side of the equation, that eventually had to balance, the arrogance and avarice of the Afrikaner Volk eventually led to a role reversal. Unthinkable of course, So there arose the ‘action fronts’, designed to create anarchy, by exactly the same methodology used by the indigenous population. But be at peace because we know the British, who now hide behind a veil of pretended innocense, were in fact the perpetrators of division(apartheid), and this was the norm in every colonial country. There is no right side to the conflict that is Africa, and you cannot mix apples and oranges in argument. Both sides were wrong, and which side was more wrong you can decide for yourself, and it does not really matter. But from my point of view, false alliances never last. The creation of this fruit salad called the Rainbow Nation, removes the right of free thinking and it cannot last. You cannot enforce integration of people with different cultural backgrounds – but you can pay lip service to the illusion. It has been tried a number of times, and always failed with violence. Friends yes – but due to the arrogance of both sides, an illusion. Integration – impossible due to the pressures of Nature. The attitude towards each other has moderated, but not due to any change of heart. The old feelings are bubbling just under the surface, and until every white vacates, it will continue.and eventually destroy this country. Best to make forward thinking plans. Reconciliation is based on mood – and mood is self serving.

          • Ace

            What do you do for the benefit of your fellow man? What does that represent in hours of your time expended or percentage of income contributed?

            What are the three best things anyone can do to benefit his fellow man? Not counting thinking beautiful thoughts and having wonderful waking fantasies. of course.

            Everyone who contributes labor, skill, or capital to the economy benefits others. Or is that just a smokescreen to hide exploitation?

          • Jody Taylor

            Spoken like a true university History graduate.

          • GWT

            it was not the Boers that kept the black people poor so they would have labour, that honour belongs to Rhodes, he wanted them to work in the mines. Verwoed then built this into his policy of apartheid

          • Jody Taylor

            That last paragraph of yours is apposite. The last line is egregious, though.

        • morton

          Please explain! what exactly did the Boers destroy? there was nothing here when the white man arrived other than death, destruction and misery. and there is no need to try and destroy the black race, they do a good enough job of it on their own.

          • iamlg34

            Black man was here. THIS is AFRICA. BLACK MANS LAND GET IT! Respect it or leave. simple.

          • morton

            So what you say is Africa for blacks. so i say Europe for Whites! so when all the blacks get out of Europe, us Whites will leave Africa!

          • guest

            You have hit the nail bang on the head with that one.

          • Sait Likitis

            Perhaps if we leave it the way we found it – with f … all … like a scorched earth policy, then you could claim it this time as your own

          • blondie

            Iamlg34 – Mr. Mandela fought so hard to get away from that kind of thinking. I am not getting into politics, but look at the black leaders? Have they treated their own blacks any better? No, they steal and rape just the white leaders they accused of doing this. It is NOT a black/white man situation, it is unscrupulous people. We need to live together and respect each other, then there will be some semblance of prosperity.

          • whiskypappa wisekey

            Mr Mandela? He was a fucking terrorist, bomb planter, terrorist, could not keep his dick in his pants, murdered thousands of people. That is what mandela was, no more, no less

          • whiskypappa wisekey

            Fuck off and die, you racist cunt

          • Delilah

            Truth hurts, eh?

          • MathMan

            No list of African inventions, then?

          • Delilah

            Of course! Rape, Murder, Car-jacking, Robbery, White Genocide…. all African inventions… 😉

          • wolfneck

            So are you saying the US should be given back to the Native Indian? Of Europe return to Whites only, you are a fool and a racist!

          • Delilah

            You have not built a single thing in Africa, because you are not capable of it. You are where you are because of the white man.

        • Jaybee

          Africans did steel the land from the Koi San. They did not build anything but come to destroy everything. Like locus. It is in their nature to lie, steel, murder, rape and beg. Look at their leader ZUMA. He is their main man and he did stole millions from the country and blame it on the white people. 5 wife’s and nobody know how many children. Every time someone want to take him to court he change the laws to hide his criminality.

        • 3x4_34

          If you are an example of a black South African, no wonder there was apartheid. Your foul mouthed racist rants prove that education has no meaning for certain peoples. Get back to squatting outside your grass hut and wait for the next variation of Ebola which is not a white man’s disease, it will find the black man easy prey.

        • wolfneck

          Ethnic groups have been migrating globally for thousands of years, your arguments is pathetic. Am I going to cry about the Normans invading England in 1066 and start spewing hatred across the English channel? Europeans started the Industrial revolution, which means without that you would all still be in your mud huts fighting over who gets to shag your sister next!

        • John Clegg

          ???????

        • drgrumpy

          It’s only the usual obsessives doing what they do best: obsessing. Most people will be bored to tears by these um … revelations um this common tittle-tattle.

        • GWT

          When the Dutch came to the Cape, they were not there to make a home for themselves, the were sent there to grow vegetables for the Dutch east India company ships that rounded the cape as sailors were dying of scurvy. At this time was the rise of the protestant Christians in Europe, in France particularly these people were hunted and killed (Hugenots), they escaped to Holland where the Dutch did not know what to do with them, so they sent them to the Cape colony. these were the “Boers”, or farmers. South Africa now was the only home they had. Later, British settlers also came and also chose this as their new home, but there were also people who were soldiers, business men, etc that did not think of it as their home. Abuse of the Black people started with the dutch in the cape, in this case it was the Hottentots. In natal there were many small Tribes at this time, they grew food on a subsistence level and Hunted. Subsistance level farming did not take much land, and the people lived in villages, the total population would have been less than 10% of what it is today. There were no borders as there are today, the chief controlled where people lived,
          This was the how it was when the first colony was set up at the Cape, although the Dutch did not meet an other people until they met the Hottentots when the Hottentots came down the coast towards the Cape, and the Dutch started exploring. They did not really have a plan of how to deal with this, they played everything by ear.
          By the time the Voortrekkers moved to Natal to get away from the British rule in the Cape, King Chaka had conquered and unified the smaller tribes, the Xhosa had split and gone far away, to the Transkei area to get away from Chaka’s brutality and Dingaan was in power. Piet Retief arranged a meeting with Dingaan to ask him to allow them to live in Natal, Dingaan slaughtered the whole Boer contingent after getting the Boers to leave their weapons outside the meeting place. Dingaan was aware that he would not be the supreme ruler if he allowed the whites to survive as they would not be subservient to him. After this there wa never really any trust.
          the Zulus then killed all the whites they could until eventually they were vanquished.

      • The Masked Marvel

        Considering the fact that the young Obama openly worshiped communists, these new revelations will most likely only increase his admiration.

        • Delilah

          Young Obama, old Obama, same difference.. He is, and always will be a Muzrat that sold out the world. And hopefully the Americans learned a hard lesson, do not vote because you want to be politically correct….!

        • Jody Taylor

          I don’t think there’s any evidence that Obama “openly worshiped” anybody.

    • Shahna

      Obama would be shocked to learn….?

      You think the man who drops drone bombs weekly on poor benighted villagers on the far side of the world he is not at war with would be shocked by some political intrigue and the political views a man held 50 years ago?

      I think he’d yawn.

      • DB1954

        Sure, Obama would yawn, especially in comparison with his own long, heroic struggles against racism, oppression, sexism, lookism, homophobia, and right-wing tyranny, uh … of course.

        • Shahna

          LOL

          • DB1954

            Ya like that did ya? 😀 *wink* I learned all that about Obama on MSNBC.

          • Shahna

            😉
            I used to be an Obomber fan – but used-to-bes don’t count any more.

          • stewball

            They just lay on the table till you sweep them away.
            Every comment I want to make you have made. Thumb up.

          • Shahna

            ;-)….
            So pleased to have done your work for you……

          • DB1954

            I think stewball’s sweet on you, Shahna.

          • stewball

            Why would you say that?

          • DB1954

            Because I’m jealous? Say, Shahna IS a girl right?

          • Shahna

            IS right

          • stewball

            What do you mean you’re jealous! Of what for FS?

          • DB1954

            Because I’m jealous? Say, Shahna IS a girl right?

          • stewball

            I’m not a lesbian.

          • Shahna

            Who was suggesting you were?
            We are anonymous here; anything and anyone we want to be.

          • stewball

            We may be anonymous but am I not allowed to be silly? AliA lot of people presume I’m male because of my name so I was saying I’m a female in a feeble way. Am I sweet on you? :-

          • stewball

            It was very kind of you.
            Are you persian?

          • Shahna

            Alas….. no.

          • stewball

            I said that because of your name. I had a friend called shahnaz – beloved of the Shah.
            Why alas!

          • Delilah

            All we need is Muslims now going on the rampage in South Africa, its bad enough that every South African pay Zakat on Halal certified food to support terrorism and even more mosques and schools where they can preach their evil.

          • DB1954

            Au contraire! We’re recruiting anyone to God’s side including former idol worshippers and heretics. I heard that even Beelzebub had thrown in the towel on Zero. ha! J/K

          • Shahna

            Former idol worshipers and heretics?
            Explain? <:=)
            Beelzebub always loved a good orgy.

          • DB1954

            Idol worshipers = Obama supporters. Yes, and he still does, but since Obama will soon nationalize his 401 K, Beelze changed his party affiliation to Republican. Or so I’m told.

          • stewball

            Who is Zero?

          • Shahna

            A pocket full?
            Do share.

          • DB1954

            Give me a break. I’m depressed so I’ve forgotten them. He’s recently proclaimed himself dictator, you know?

          • Shahna

            Hmmm…. but who other than you has noticed?

          • DB1954

            No one in the so called MSM. That’s what we (we being THE GODLY AND RIGHTEOUS) call the Obama-Soros media.

          • Shahna

            I was thinking more ….folks back home than MSM.

    • David Ashton

      Check the background: Mandela and Obama cut from similar wholecloth.

      • stewball

        I hate Obama bin Laden.

        • WrinklyOldGit

          Is he actually dead? Or is he in an American gaol on a military base somewhere in the South Atlantic? Was he actually buried at sea or is he being kept in cold storage to disprove any claims he was still alive and living in a cave in Bora Bora still directing the operations of Al Qaeda?

          • Ed  

            The burial at sea, at least, I agreed with; it’s an insult to the muslim religion.

        • Hegelman

          Osama hated Obama.

          So you are blood brothers.

      • Hegelman

        As long as they are not cut from your cloth, surely that’s a deal.

        • David Ashton

          I don’t quite follow. Both Obama and Mandela share a certain ability to charm others. Mandela’s ANC was closely linked to the Soviet-aligned SACP.

    • DB1954

      lol a great description.

    • Chimbwido

      If you think Obama gives a hoola about what you think, then you are sadly mistaken. Dream on.

      • DB1954

        If you think we give a hoola about what Obama thinks, then you are sadly mistaken. Dream on.

      • stewball

        I don’t think he cares what anybody thinks. He’s turned America into a weak laughing stock.

    • KEVOD

      Concerning Obama’s actions to date, and opinion polls of people he presides over – I am not sure if he would be shocked.
      Nothing is really as it appears to be, and with the passage of time the darkest secrets are revealed. Think about the Afrikaner regime. Many uncertainties, but with the passage of time the TRC hearings made public some of the reality of this regime. A huge number of South Africans were shocked, and remain shocked.
      I think the jury is still out on Obama. When there is so much smoke, somewhere a fire is burning. His arrogance speaks against him, and there are too many conspiracy theories that need answers.

    • wolfneck

      Many people believed he was a terrorist from the start, they were branded racists. The truth always comes out after a death, Mandela showered his family and friends with Mercedes Benz and Mansions whilst most poor Black SA still starve.

    • Hegelman

      Obama is half white as well as half black. So spare him a kind thought.

    • Jody Taylor

      Yes, but Mandela was from the correct minority group; the rest doesn’t matter. And don’t forget; these people are never ever as bad as white people.

  • Dedan Kimathi

    Apartheid was the most loathsome doctrine ever conceived by a minority white community to dominate the black majority people of South Africa. Nazism was the most cruel doctrine ever imagined and practice by the Germans. Mandela opposed violence by self defense and later became the defender of justice, freedom and racial harmony. History will retain one thing: Madiba pardoned the architects of the apartheid system and the Truth and Reconciliation Commission offered South Africa the opportunity to forge national cohesion.

    • mahatmacoatmabag

      Yes , Apartheid was evil, but Mandela still supported Arafats attempts to commit Genocide against Israel & Genocide is even more evil than Apartheid

      • david ascher

        you are joking, aren’t you?

        • David Ashton

          You’re in trouble yourself now. You too will now be seen as an “anti-semite” and therefore a “racist” and “self-hating Jew”.

          • david ascher

            “self-hating Jew” is the favorite epithet of ultrazionists due to the hesitancy of so many non-Jews to criticize Israel for fear of being labelled “anti-semitic”. I wonder why you would tar me with that particular brush.

          • David Ashton

            I agree with your first sentence. I don’t tar you with this epithet, or wish to do so, but I know some who would. Look at this week’s London “Jewish Chronicle” and the leftist “New Statesman”.

            I think Jews, Israelis, Arabs, Muslims, Christians, Communists, and anyone else, should not be immune to criticism, so long as it is rational, factually based and politely expressed.

            Shall I crawl back under my stone, now?

    • Mike Anderson

      Funny that he considered himself both a nationalist and a socialist. Fortunately for SA, Mandela does not seem to have the megalomania of the most infamous national socialist.

    • Augustus

      You conveniently make no mention of ethnic black racism towards the whites, many of whom have had deep roots in SA for generations. And as far as ‘doctrines’ go, the black majority ( not even to contemplate the treatment of a white minority) often suffer more hardship under black tyrants like Mugabe than a white regime whose ruling purpose was not directly aimed at oppression but towards the betterment of both races.

      • Zain Ebrahim

        The apartheid regime’s purpose “was not directly aimed at oppression but towards the betterment of both races”?? Please explain how the Bantu Education Act or the Group Areas Act (apartheid law) served to improve the lives of black South Africans.

        • Augustus

          I said ‘both races’. So the Afrikaner Nationalists were trying to safeguard the position of the white minority in South Africa. But anyway, both Acts were repealed before Mandela came to power. The Afrikaners, whose Dutch ancestors settled there 300 years ago, had not known any other home than South Africa. It was perfectly natural for them to have developed a deep racial consciousness out of their incessant contact with primitive peoples during those past centuries. Their ancestors had been moulded by the isolation in which they lived; by their struggles with the natives who poured in from the north as the Afrikaner was trekking up from the south; and by their rigid and uncompromising Calvinism with its strong overtones of authoritarianism.

          • Zain Ebrahim

            Yes, you said ‘a white regime whose ruling purpose’ tended toward ‘the betterment of both both races’ which implies betterment of white people as well as betterment of black people. That second half of your point is not true at all.

    • Rocksy

      Then there’s the one about the Princess and the Pea.

    • David Ashton

      You confuse baaskap with separate self-government. Now the “black majority” (in theory) is dominant. How many are better off?

  • Martin Williams

    Excellent piece Rian. It complements those by Stephen Ellis, James Myburgh, etc but the propaganda war has been won by those who airbrushed these inconvenient truths out of the Mandela story,

  • Ian Janse van Vuuren

    Interesting, although really nothing new as far as Revo 101 is concerned during the last century. The end justifies the means, Communism was the main credo on which everything was hung etc, etc. I think everyone knows this, whether the book was altered or not. Everyone also knows that the ANC and SACP were hand in glove from the beginning, and no one is so naive as to imagine that a revolutionary war can be fought without bloodshed – he would have known it, and everyone else should know that he did. I suppose it may come as a slight shock to some of the bleeding heart liberals in the Nordic countries though…

  • Jon Cassar

    I wondered, watching the funeral, what exactly did Mandela achieve? His release from prison seems to have been the biggest event of recent years in South Africa.
    The country seems to have gone to the dogs since the end of apartheid so I don’t know what all the back patting and ball stroking’s about.

    • Rocksy

      When there isn’t a lot to choose from (No others to choose from?) you have to make the best of whatever you have. The African continent isn’t exactly brimming with larger than life heroes….fake or otherwise.

      • DB1954

        The lefties must have their heroes. I mean, the whole Ché Guevara thing has pretty much run its course. Besides, T-shirt sales of Ché and Malcom X had been sagging for years.

        • David Ashton

          Good point – see my reply to “david ascher” above.

    • Christy

      He achieved independence/democracy for South Africa. He avoided a bloodbath/civil war;he CHOSE to forgive his perpetrators.

      • CaptainCurmudgeon

        The bloodbath continues…of whites.

        • Christy

          oh i see you one of those drinking the Sunett Bridges and Steve Hoffmeyer cool aid…..

          • DB1954

            That’s right. Ignore the whites. That was always Mandela’s plan after he got into power.

        • iamlg34

          and no land continues for blacks. You are caught in the middle. i good white man who just wants to work and feed his family. I am just a black man who wants my land back. Eish what do we do now? i don’t have the answer so I pray. Wait can I have some land in the netherlands please? just an acre. Let me take that so that we can balance things out hey.

          • stewball

            One acre! when the Dutch stole so much from your people.

          • iamlg34

            I was being sarcastic. I wanted these nut cases to be honest for once. They are invaders that came here in the 1600 and started stealing our children and sold them as slaves and today they want to talk about its their homeland. White man has no homeland in Africa. YOU STOLE and I want my shit back!

          • Freddie

            its not your land though
            arguing that somethings yours when you have not worked it, owned or otherwise had interaction with it for many many years is bloody idiotic, childish and won’t allow south africa to progress from the problems that it is already facing.

      • Viljee

        I doubt he achieved it … have you heard about a referendum that took place in the 80’s:? and the reason he got out of jail in the first place.

        • Christy

          a referendum which he and the ANC still have a choice to settle on….

          • DB1954

            A choice to settle on? What does that mean?

      • SuperSpeller

        “Avoided a bloodbath”? What dream world do YOU live in. Whites have been subjected to a pogrom since the blacks took over.

        • Napster

          When whites were on power, they wouldn’t share toilet, bus, entrance, roads and many more with black but Mandela broke that up to share a toilet with a black person. If whites were subjected you would be having whtes move in to soweto, carry dom pass, and have signs all over for black only and white only.

          • iamlg34

            Whites hate blacks period. Get with the program.

          • Napster

            and they think blacks cannot hate whites………………………..Blacks are timing whites and when it is time. Black power will be the cries of white tears!!!!!!!Got the program?

        • iamlg34

          We have been subjected to your bullshit since 1600 when you first arrived in the Cape so what the F are you talking about?

      • David Ashton

        “Independence” from… it was not a colony of a foreign power, though the SACP might have made it one.
        “Democracy”…well, we’ll see what that means in a few years.

    • Shahna

      In my opinion, the one real thing Mandela did was get South Africa through the white to black transition without an interlude of carmine.

      And everytime it feels extra downhill – I remind myself that once upon a time the police came and carted you away to chookie if you had the wrong folk round to dinner.

      But yes, more working at fixing and less back patting and ball stroking is in order.

      • Andre Reid Jacobs

        LOL and once upon a time the police ……………. Well now days the police don’t cart away, they kill you. Every day, including today the news is filled with this government’s police shooting, killing, torturing their citizens on a 10x larger scale than apartheid ever did. My how you lefties are so trying to justify your past actions by trying to convince the world that the past was worse than the present. You idiots have been stroking the ANC balls for so long you have become blinded to the reality that surround you.

        • Shahna

          When they’re not dragging you along the road behind their copvan! Yeah. I know. Don’t like it any more than you do.

          But whining doesn’t fix – and I’m pleased to see a few of the extra-special nasties landed up in jail!
          ….Pity we dumped the death penalty.

          The present is worse than the past in this respect.
          There’s more crime and barrel-loads more incompetence.

          The past is worse than the present in this respect.
          There is no more … “born-guilt.”

          Others don’t seem to notice – but it means a lot to me.
          I prefer the crime and incompetence to living with incessant unerring never-relenting “born-guilt.”

      • David Ashton

        I am not sure that it is true that it was universally illegal for white people to have black people to dinner under apartheid, although there were segregation rules in public facilities and of course a ban on miscegenation.

        • Shahna

          I assure it – it was “universally illegal” for white people to have black people round to dinner and for black people to have white people round to dinner. I KNOW. (You guess how.)

          But the cops had to find out first so it generally took some rotten arzehole to phone them up and tell them.

          • David Ashton

            How did Liberal politicians in Joburg get away with it then?

          • Shahna

            As I said – the cops had to find out.
            Neighbours in a liberal neighbourhood in Jhb were a lot less likely to call the police than neighbours in a small mainly verkrampte town. …Do I really need to say neighbours in a black neighbourhood were also a lot less likely to call the police?

            … I didn’t experience the problem when I lived in Cape Town….

          • David Ashton

            I don’t wish to labour this minor point, but not many verkrampte farmers would be too keen in any case to invite the hands in to a dinner party if ever they had one.

          • Shahna

            LOL….
            They did have a dinner party – once in a blue moon…
            but no, they didn’t have “the help” to dinner.

            ….Ta for the giggle.

    • iamlg34

      He didn’t kill white people and he didn’t nationalize assets thats why.

  • kcband8

    The BBC will always believe that Mandela is God-like. Nothing will ever change that.Likewise Thatcher is the personification of evil.
    The BBC will ignore any negative stories about Mandela.

    • David Kay
      • Katherine McChesney

        When in fact, he was equal to Satan.

    • global city

      To the BBC this will only add to his sainthood.

    • David Ashton

      Marx the Father, Che the Son, and Madiba the Holy Ghost.

      • DB1954

        Over here the third person of the Trinity seems to be Martin Luther King, Jr. I mean, he did some good things, but really, the man is given God-like status here. I think even he would be shocked by the excess, post-mortem adulation

        • David Ashton

          A collective psychosis, which affects even clever people, as illustrated by this summary of an exchange you can find elsewhere on this thread:
          A. There is no scientific proof whatever of average genetic differences relation to the brains of various human populations.
          B. Yes, there is. Here are some recent scientific studies.
          A. There is no need even to consider them. You are an ignorant racist Nazi antisemite who should crawl back under a stone.
          B. I would prefer to debate the evidence than listen to insults.
          A. You are not only a racist antisemite, but an oversensitive Colonel Blimp.

          The “liberal left” makes a great claim to reason (unlike the evil “right”) but seem immune to reason, facts and good manners. They resemble members of an in doctrinated cult. “Liberalism – the ideology of western suicide” (James Burnham). This applies to their reaction to any mention of faults in MLK or Mandela, etc.

          • DB1954

            Excuse me? I’m a conservative and a supporter of Israel. I never made any remark whatsoever about the alleged intellectual inferiority of any race of human beings. In fact, I never made any such remark. I’m not religious, just a social and political conservative. How is it that I’m an anti-Semite? Where did I make an anti-Semitic remark?

          • David Ashton

            There is a comment from you on the Disqus archive but not on this thread as I read it at midnight in England on January 28/29 which appears to have misunderstood my A + B sequence. This had nothing to do with you personally or politically, but was to illustrate by summary a pointless debate I had with a Mr David Ascher who reacted with abuse rather than argument to what I posted.

            My point was the cult-like bigotry of “liberals” – which was an implicit point made in Burnham’s book. I happen to agree with ch.XIII, section 2 (pp.247-248, in my copy) of your Bible.

            I did not suggest that DB1954 was antisemitic, etc.
            Mr Ascher was accusing ME of this, etc. You have confused the two suggestions, possibly because I did not make myself too clear.

            In my view the human brain is no special exception to gene-determined differences between individuals, families or populations. This is reflected to some extent in the different average IQ scores between Jews and Blacks in the USA.

          • DB1954

            I understand, sir. My apologies for my gross misunderstanding of your comments. I retracted that response several hours ago. Best …

          • David Ashton

            Thank you & all the best to you and other US conservative patriots.

  • jack

    the chances of this story showing up on the BBC in a fair way is zero. And it will get even less press in the USA.No different than the whitewash of the Kennedy’s and other members of the ruling class.

  • Retired Nurse

    “The second area is his endorsement of force against opponents. In April
    1958, the ANC called a three-day national strike which drew little or no
    support and had to be called off in humiliating circumstances. In Long Walk,
    Mandela notes that the strike was completely effective in towns where
    it was enforced by violence or pickets. ‘I have always resisted such
    methods,’ he says, but goes on to reason that coercion is acceptable in
    cases where a dissident minority is blocking a majority. ‘A minority
    should not be able to frustrate the will of the majority,’ he concludes.”

    One recalls all the striking Marikana miners who the S.African police shot dead and thinks……

    • David Ashton

      There have been many “Sharpevilles” in the RSA or other parts of “Independent Africa” with the jackboots on other feet.

  • Elaine Bing

    A non-issue.

  • Duchess Samira Edi

    Everything written here is a whole load of HOGWASH. Another right-wing nuttery; of using sensationalism. Here’s a vile halfwit, taking his fabricated concoction of mixed-up unfounded opinions, half-truths, WELL-KNOWN facts, and pure fabrications to sell a smear story. It is an ill-disguised attempt to besmirch the legacy of Nelson Mandela, [which is nothing new], but trying to taint the Obama administration to get the poison really going. If you want to know the real Nelson Mandela, go to Youtube and watch video clips of what he said about using allies to fight heinous apartheid. You’re resurrecting an irrelevance, which has no bearing on the legend’s legacy. He was the fist to tell you he wasn’t a saint, but unlike your vile heroine, Thatcher the milk snatcher and the butcher of the poor, Mandela admits to using every weapon available to fight apartheid. Of course, like Reagan, she was ass-locked with the apartheid regime, so anything to besmirch Mandela will do. Vile vile mean-spirited , callous right-wing nuts.

    • 3x4_34

      WOW! Read this diatribe again Duchess and demote yourself to peasant.

      • Duchess Samira Edi

        Read your and demoted you to a speck of poo on a dog’s ass.

        • David Ashton

          Gosh, all the philosophy of Nkrumah, the brains of Amin and the literary gifts of Zuma, plus the sparkling wit of Step-and-Fetchit all rolled into one Winnie the Necklacer look-alike!

        • Netswera Livhuwani

          When a white man start calling you names know you are upsetting him with your intelligence, he see you as a threat.

    • David Ashton

      This comment is just empty abuse, a laboratory specimen of a low-IQ slogan-ridden ignorant emotional reaction.

      It is not a rational refutation, and shows that Rian Malan’s exposure cannot be rationally refuted.

      Mrs Thatcher “butcher” of the poor? The blacks who have been torturing, slashing and murdering white families in South Africa and Zimbabwe, were they “butchers” or just nice people enjoying a day out?

      As for Barack Obama’s America, what dear duchess, is your opinion of the black-on-black murder-rate and the black-on-white rape-rate in the Land of the Free?

      • Duchess Samira Edi

        Oh, you bigot, you’re entitled to your entitled ignorance.

        • David Ashton

          The pot calling the kettle an object of colour.

        • Netswera Livhuwani

          Tell them sister

          • David Ashton

            Like your hat…is that for war, or just affectation?

    • MichaelStamper

      There is nothing rational here. Just a hate-filled rant.

    • Netswera Livhuwani

      Tell the white liberals to stop trying to continue making money out of discrediting a black man, that trick is old and known, Rian has nothing important to share with the world about his falsely fabrications of Long Walk

  • lowCal90

    Since equality before the law results in the claim that people have a share in making the law, democratic methods tend to accompany liberty.

  • Daniel Maris

    The French resistance was riddled with Communist, and to a large extent directed by them.

    I guess if Rian can show us one of his articles where he accuses De Gaulle of being a tool of the communists, we can concluded that his motivation here is historical accuracy and nothing else.

  • James Bro

    This article will never see the light of day in the MSM. OBTW Mandela was an anti-semite as well.

  • Coenie Bekker

    At the end of the day “If This is true which I do not believe”When he came out he did not carry out the so call script and gave his hand to us white South Africans so what ever he wanted to do he did not do “Why now that he is dead” Do we come out with this non story he is not here to defend himself Let us white South Africans give our hand to the black man it may not be easy but we must do it for our children and South Africa

    • Andreas Meyer

      That “reconciliation” talk was clearly for tactical purposes.

  • mikewaller

    What is the next shock-horror going to be? Yet more evidence of Winston Churchill being less than entirely candid after WW2 about his attitudes to carpet-bombing and germ warfare during the course it? Massaging one’s own past is a fairly routine human activity, so why pick out NM for a special kicking? “Let he who is without sin……”

    • Andreas Meyer

      Why not point out his Communist Party membership. That’s important biographical information.

    • Mike Anderson

      I suppose it’s not. But touting the same individual as some kind of saint is less horrific than it is irksome. Churchill on the other hand was never treated as a saint.

      • david ascher

        Churchill has been saint in the US since wwii. Few Americans know of his role in the Boer War or his role in Gallipoli. Fewer care about his decisions to terror bomb the continent.

        • David Ashton

          Or the pleasure Allied terror bombing gave to “Uncle Joe” who had invaded not only Poland, but Finland and the Baltic states. Churchill’s “sainthood” arose from his anti-Nazi actions, which presumably you consider good in general balance of things? “Idiot”, “slut”, “troll”…?

          • david ascher

            Oh David! You have me all wrong. I agree that the Nazis should have won the War. They were smarter and had better genes in general. And they were helping to cleanse the planet of filthy untermenschen like Poles, Ukranians, Jews, Gypsies, Gays, etc. What a wonderful world it could have been. A thousand year reich with all the slave peoples serving their natural blond, blue eyed, Aryan masters.

            That is what you mean, isn’t it?

          • David Ashton

            No, it isn’t.

            I am beginning to wonder if it is not a waste of time trying to “debate” with you. Incidentally, I have blue eyes but raven-black hair.

        • Mike Anderson

          You do have me interested. I can’t vouch for the US, but in Australia I believe Churchill is viewed as a somewhat unlikely hero or perhaps the underdog, who turned the tide of the war by sheer tenacity. His penchant for the drink, as one example of his shortcomings, is discussed as part of that narrative.
          As to the US, I have read Shirer, but I didn’t get the sense that he was viewed as a saint. Respected, perhaps,but never revered.
          Are other writers more grand in their language?

          • david ascher

            Throughout the 50s and 60s Churchill was presented in the popular press, TV, and magazines (Time, Life, especially) as the savior of Western Civilization. This was likely, in part, because the folks who were doing the beatifying preferred not to promote the roles played by Roosevelt, and most certainly not of Stalin, in defeating the Axis. Churchill was also a staunch anti-communist as well, which was the kind of hero that went down particularly well during that period.

    • Harrison Bergeron

      Fix yourself a nice bleach smoothie. Yum.

  • Callie Mocke

    Obama wont be shocked as Obama is totally aware off all this..after all they were both controlled by the jewish communists and zionsis that is actually running America..Harold mc Millan predicted this in 1920 already I think

    • tastemylogos

      you are a freak with too many conspiracies and too much time to pontificate over your fantastical non existent daemons. Thick, dumb, stupid, childish, immature, nasty, lonely, rather sad.

      • MrNewCastrati

        I think she was being sarcastic.

    • 1crappie2

      Jewish Communists? Thanks for the early morning laugh…

  • Sarah

    The only reason Obama might be upset to find it out, would be because he doesn’t want any one to associate him with is real people, just like Mandela apparently didn’t. Obama is just following Mandela’s path all the way; from acting like a moderate, to being a secret communist of the most subversive type.

    • ZigZ

      It is a secret that Obama is a Communist?

      Obama’s claimed parents were Communist. His “grandparents” who raised him were Communist. Obama’s childhood mentor was a Communist. Obama entered the IL Senate race with the help of a Communist. Valerie Jarrett’s Parents and in-laws were Communists.

      • david ascher

        Didn’t you mean they were bogeymen? Where do you get this drivel from? and why “grandparent’s” – do you not accept that they were really his mother’s parents? or are you referring to his father’s parents?

        “Communists” were behind the labor movement and the 40hour work week. Communists were a force for women’s suffrage in the U.S. and for ending Jim Crow. Communists have been involved in most of the positive changes in the US in the past 100 years or more.

        Calling somebody a ‘Communist’ as an epithet displays your ignorance of reality. Are we all supposed to cringe and hide because you claim somebody is a “Communist”?

        • David Ashton

          Well done. Argument instead of abuse, at last.

  • http://twitter.com/#!/holdendcat BradyMoss

    “(Mandela) batted for the opposition during the Cold War.”

    That’s because WE, the small-d democrats of the West, didn’t go to bat for HIM, supporting apartheid for decades.

    Funny how that gets left out.

    By the way, if Malan and his sycophantic commenters want to play the guilt-by-association game, it’s worth noting that a basic Wikipedia search reveals the writer is an AIDS denialist. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rian_Malan#AIDS_controversy)

    First take the plank out of your own eye, Mr. Malan.

    • 1crappie2

      Yup, and the writer probably doesn’t wash his hands after going to the bathroom either. What pray tell, has his being an AIDs denier got to do with anything he wrote, other than you calling him a name to belittle and deflect from his message?

      • http://twitter.com/#!/holdendcat BradyMoss

        The point of this column-and other similarly slimy ones from Mandela haters like Malan-is to suggest Mandela never shook the fleas he got from lying down with dictatorial dogs.

        There are many problems with this argument, such as the fact that many people now unflinchingly called small-d democratic heroes (from Truman-who took to Stalin’s fake “papa bear” personality in the course of working with him as a strategic partner-to Thatcher-who blew Gus Pinochet kisses as his health failed) did similar dances.

        Also overlooked is the fact that Mandela didn’t govern like a communist. And the SACP says he was a communist? Big hairy deal! It’s in their interest to say so, so why trust them. My takeaway is that Mandela used to be a young, pissed off guy with little support from small-d democrats in the wider world, and in his anger, he turned to anti-democratic radicalism. It was, in a way, a marriage of convenience, and if marriages of convenience are okay for Truman and Thatcher, why not Mandela?

        Circling back to Malan’s AIDS denialism, it speaks to his own credibility. AIDS denialism is a killer in Africa-as it would be anywhere-and I’m guessing that, when the same crap comes out of the mouth of an African politician, Malan &co. pathologize that pol, without realizing they are in the same camp!

        • david ascher

          yes. finally.

        • David Ashton

          What is Zuma’s answer to AIDS?

          • http://twitter.com/#!/holdendcat BradyMoss

            If you think my post was a love letter to Jacob Zuma, you missed the whole point. My point is that Malan is one of those “thinkers” who often has his head as far up his own arse as the people he criticizes, but doesn’t realize it.

          • David Ashton

            I have a position on these matters and will quote bits from any sources whatever that support it.

  • Bruce Gatland

    It has always been common knowledge that Mandela was a member of the SACP, he made no secret of the fact. He was instrumental in the founding of the ANC Military wing, Mkhonto we Sizwe (Spear of the Nation).
    However, the man that went into jail was quite different from the man that was released 27 years later.

    For all the good he did regarding reconciliation in SA after his release, he, by his own admission, was no saint.

    It was under his presidency that the massively corrupt arms deal developed, from which the entire ANC leadership benefitted financially, Mandela and his family included.
    Other corrupt deals were allowed under his watch, such as contracts to ANC pals for toll roads, drivers licenses, Koega harbor, etc. All of these involved billions of Rands.
    The net result of this theft of taxpayer’s money is poverty of millions of people in townships that could have had the same money spent on housing, schools, clinics, etc.

    The fame of the legendary Nelson was carefully nurtured and promoted by the ANC controlled SABC and the liberal press around the world. To entice votes of the masses, the ANC needed a hero. Being a so-called “liberation movement”, they had nothing to offer regarding governance and public administration. Time has shown us that most of their election promises have been hollow.

    The script for Nelsons’ life history could have been written by Disney; no warts or wrinkles, however the real man had many failings, not least of which his infidelity to his wife. Winnie, without a doubt, was guilty of the same thing.

    If he hadn’t spent all that time in prison, I doubt That Nelson would have become as famous and admired as he did.
    If Steve Biko hadn’t been murdered, he would most likely have led the ANC – he was far more popular amongst the masses at that time than Mandela was.
    The same could have applied to Chris Hani, whose murder has never been totally investigated.
    We have 2 white right-wing murderers in jail for life, but they were not the only ones involved; they didn’t reveal all at the Truth and Reconciliation Commission
    I suspect that the ANC don’t want to dig too deeply on this matter for fear of finding unwanted skeletons.

    The fact that Mandela was a lifelong member and eventual leader of the inept, corrupt, nepotistic and racist ANC will forever sully his legacy for those who take enough time to find out the truth.
    There are very few politicians in history that entered politics for the betterment of their fellow man; most of them did it for the financial power and rewards.
    Judging by the massive wealth of the Mandela estate and his family, I certainly don’t think Mandela was one of them.

    My vain wish is that one day in the future, all politicians will step down from their self- important pedestals and do what they are supposed to do – serve the people that elected them, but I don’t really believe that this will ever happen.

  • Deon Van der Westhuizen

    Mandela was so smart, he managed to sell fake art to Oprah Winfrey and half the American gullible liberal community. Check out “Nelson Mandela art scam”.

  • remmy

    Just make it up. Standard operating procedure.

  • ZigZ

    Mandela only had to say 4 words to get out of prison: “I am a terrorist.”
    Mandela was a very bad man. Che Guevara type bad man.

  • dixie68

    It is difficult to understand why anyone would be surprised by Mandela’s love of communism. With the exception of the very few black conservatives, such as Col Allen West and Dr. Ben Carson and a handful of others, every black I have ever met (and I live in a black majority area) is a communist, even though most of them do not even realize it.

    • David Ashton

      From the whites according to their ability, to the blacks according to their need. Marx updated.

  • Jack?

    Nelson knew taking up arms would cripple the economy (which is happening anyway) and therefore went the “forgiving” route, which lead to foreign investment into the country. Now with free trade and no sanctions from certain sectors of the world, the economy is doing worse. A weakened currency than during apartheid, living conditions which are worse for the majority. As long as the top dogs are sitting pretty they don’t care how their fellow man is, only when it’s election time. Corruption is rife. I know people will say every govt. is corrupt, but these guys are taking the piss. Nelson Mandela did help prevent a civil war, but the affects of a silent “civil war” are apparent. Whites can’t get jobs even based on merit, so they leave the country. Majority of black people can’t get proper jobs because of a lack of education (which is still blamed on apartheid 20 years later), so the country gets dumber and poorer because of it. Sports teams must be based on ethnic quotas (who cares if the team loses). The world is always quick to point fingers at South Africa. Look at Australia, mostly European, what had happened to the Aboriginals? Mainly wiped out. Look at America, what happened to the Native Americans? Wiped out or put into reserves to stay out of the way. Europeans chose not to wipe out a whole nation when coming to South Africa. Slavery in the US and Europe, many of them sold off by tribes in Africa. Anything to make a buck. All of this is wrong. But yet the finger is pointed at South Africa to hide the wrongs of other countries. These arguments will never end. Living in South Africa I just want to be rewarded for my hard work, not be side lined for it. Unfortunately this country now protects the majority, some of the comments say “You reap what you sow” which is directed to the white people. Then the same can be said for the black majority. Keeping pushing the doctors and entrepreneurs out of the country. Eventually the infrastructure will fall because there isn’t anyone qualified to fix anything, or not enough people to fix it. Black people now like show that they’re in charge, that a white man isn’t their boss. Great. I don’t care. But when the economy goes down the drain it won’t matter what the colour of your skin is, everyone will be affected.

  • Bruiser in Houston

    Why is it that so many heroes of the left have so much blood on their hands? Mao? Lenin? Stalin? Mandela? Pol Pot? Ho? Guevara? Castro?

    • david ascher

      George Bush, Margaret Thatcher, Richard Nixon, Winston Churchill, Napoleon, Kaiser Wilhelm, Adolf Hitler,

      Pol Pot was never anybody’s hero.

      • David Ashton

        Is it worth trying to measure the quantity of blood?

        Do two wrongs make a correct?

        Google: R. J. Rummel, Steven Rosefielde and (daring, this bit) Carlo Mattogno.

  • Bruiser in Houston

    Did you know that wealthier white South Africans travel with bodyguards and live in houses with tall stone walls and other fortifications? Yayyyyyy Mandela, right?

  • 1uncle

    Rick Stengel will rewrite Hillarys new epic.

  • Second Look

    Of course there had to be a “plan B”. It seems everyone here does not understand leadership. its called stalling in diplomacy to keep proponents of war in check while the now admired plan A is put into action. If you have ever been oppressed and treated like grass in your own motherland, you’ll understand why it had to be this way. Lots of people would have been telling Mandela “lets fight” The best way is to assure them it was a credible option. THE REST IS NOW HISTORY.

  • Shahna

    It’s a pity the authors of the book chose to whitewash Mandela’s history instead of telling it “warts and all.” It would have made for a far better read.

  • A S

    What a dumb article.

    Mandela was a Communist (everybody knew that).

    Mandela supported the armed struggle (everybody knew that).

    Mandela was a Stalinist (well – that’s debatable, as you can call someone a Stalinist meaning their tactics – employed from a position of resistance to tyranny – have similarities with Stalin’s, or do you mean that he was like Stalin, arguably the greatest mass murderer in history?).

    Bottom line – people admire Mandela because, after a life which involved violent struggle as well as principled resistance, when he got the reins of power he chose to be magnanimous. Only a right-wing nutmag like the Spectator would try to get mileage from an angry young man having been, er, an angry young man.

  • johngf

    The film is not quite an hagiography. Mandela had an affair during his first marriage and beats her when she questions him about it. He took up an armed struggle. He is clearly shown at a terrorist training camp that looks suspiciously Soviet. He takes a long time to renounce violence. He is shown taking full advantage of the perks of leadership and clearly does not identify with ‘his people’ in the townships. He tolerates Winnie’s black on black attacks for a long time, or at least does not speak out about them.

    However, I definitely agree with the writer of this article that Mandela’s intellectual formation was rather absent from the film, along with things like how he became friends with the Castros.

    Thankfully in the end he renounced violence, but he clearly did not lay the foundations for good government. Mbeki and Zuma are not a great legacy.

    • david ascher

      what is the obsession with the Castros? When did the Castros launch attacks on the United States or invade any other country? The US hates them because they called they defeated the invasion and then called the US’ bluff when it came to nuclear war. The American Mafia was the biggest loser when Castro kicked Battista out. For them, the US was willing to invade and threaten global armegeddon. Who’s the bad guys??

      • David Ashton

        Who put missiles in Cuba, and who had to remove them?
        However, you are quite right about the Mafiosi, but their worst enemies were the Italian Fascists.

        • david ascher

          Cuba had every right and justification for puttin misslles in Cuba. The US had already supported an invasion for crying out loud. What would the US have done if Cuba had launched an invasion of Florida? Bomb the crap out of Cuba. Cuba simply brought in nuclear missiles that could be used to threaten a counterattack. M.A.D. you may recall (or maybe not) was the generally accepted modus operandus amongst the big boys at the time.

          Not to mention that the U.S. had a ring of nukes around the USSR to ‘protect’ Turkey, Japan, Korea, etc.And that the US agreed to ‘quietly’ remove those missiles as part of the deal the Kruschev offered for removing his from Cuba.

          The U.S. was wrong to support the invasion of a sovereign nation. The U.S. was wrong to threaten nuclear armegeddon in response to Cuba defending itself in exactly the same was that the US help Turkey defend itself. The Castros were not the bad guys as far as that all goes.

          • David Ashton

            Just one point: “a sovereign nation” – a “quaint idea in the modern world” like “our own people”?

            I shall not argue about the Bay of Pigs or for that matter the US policy in Indo-China; I think both interventions were misguided, but this thread and my lack of time prevent further comment from me.

          • david ascher

            “sovereign nation” would be the generally recognized description of what Cuba was at the time of the Bay of Pigs invasion.

            I have to admit that my interest in further debate with you is flagging.

      • johngf

        The US could have dealt with Cuba much better, but the Castros have been shown to be oppressive tyrants.

        • david ascher

          Could have dealt with Cuba much better? Is that some kind of dry wit? or do you think the US simply made a few minor mistakes – like repeatedly trying to assassinate Castro and invading Cuba?

  • obert

    My point of view on Mandela is as follows:

    1. He was a terrorist that worked for a dark and anti-democratic movement
    2. Despite his background, we owe him thanks for his reconciliatory message and his ability to manage extreme forces following his ascent to power. Without his leadership South Africa would have quite easily faced a full scale racial war. For those of you arguing that whites are already having war waged against them, this is simply not true. South Africa is a violent country and the violence experienced by whites is below the level faced by other groups.
    3. The ANC, now that he is gone, will accelerate its descent into demagoguery. Once they lose popularity, as they surely will through their record of incompetence, they will make Zanu PF in Zimbabwe (and indeed, Apartheid in South Africa) look like the salvation army.

  • k Phulu

    I don’t understand .What was wrong with being a communist? The article works on the assumption that we all accept that communism is inherently evil ,even moreso than the apartheid system.Come on.

    • David Ashton

      What’s wrong with being a communist? Why not ask some of the millions of refugees from communism. Blacks poured into apartheid SA. The communist regimes drove millions out. Check the facts from (say) Alexander Yakovlev on Russia, or Frank Dikotter on China.

    • justejudexultionis

      Communism can only be implemented through violence and by depriving human beings of their natural liberty. Far from disappearing under communism, the state actually destroys the individual.

  • Netswera Livhuwani

    What Rian Malan wrote in this article is nothing new and was never hidden, the Afrikaaner once more is trying hard to discredit an African man, Rian let me let you know today because you seem not to know that the Long Walk autobiography was a long story that got cut short, and yes Mandela was a man that has changed a lot of his believes over years just like any man,for example in long walk it says “‘I hate all forms of imperialism, and I consider the US brand to be the most loathsome and contemptible” now go back to Mandela’s Rivonia speech where he said he admire such political systems as the British and the Americans, now what did you not state such fact? you know why? because you ar ethe one who is fabricating history here not the writer of Long Walk, u are another white man discrediting and looking down on a black man, you are wrong to think you will shake us with your lame intelligence, u came 20 years late Rian Malan.

    • David Ashton

      Mandela had a hard job facing the quotations from his own handwriting on exterminating the enemies of communism, and had to pretend how much he loved British democracy.

    • justejudexultionis

      Jy weet nie waarvan jy praat nie…

    • Richard

      That is not the essence of the article. The article is about how Mandela was changed as an entity for the media in order to sell him. It does not talk about anything else. You have obviously never read anything that Riaan Malan has written.

  • Ranjit Patel

    I remember in the 80s and early 90s the white Saffers who’d skipped the country telling me that once Mandela took over the country would turn into yet another African basket case. Turns out they were wrong – South Africa is now pulling ahead of Hong Kong in terms of development, quality of life, per-capita income and cutting-edge technology!

    • David Ashton

      Quality of life, I think not.
      The technology is the result of White and Indian experts, as it was before.
      Still, one does not begrudge the South African peoples any relief from beinh the murder and rape capital of the world.

    • Richard

      But then why are Indians the group most likely to emigrate from South Africa?

  • iamlg34

    I think the writer of this article also forgot to mention that at that time thew US and England were supplying the Apartheid government with weapons to kill my people. You also forgot to mention that Mandela made a deal with the Imperials so the criminal racist white people of South Africa didnt spend a day in jail. A black man gets caught with weed in America serves 10 years but you oppress and loot African countries you can walk free. So stop trying to tell us your BS about Mandela we already know everything about him. You work for the devil right the where you are Rian Malan. Why dont you go write about how the CIA killed Lumumba and how your country is looting Africa or how Apple is buying blood Cobalt in the Congo. Oh wait you can’t because your master white editor will fire your stupid ass. So serve your serfdom quietly please.

    • justejudexultionis

      What about the 3000 members of my people (the Afrikaners) that you people have murdered for no reason since the end of Apartheid?
      Apartheid was wrong but we can now sit back and watch the ANC turn RSA into another Zimbabwe.

      • iamlg34

        Only you and I can stop the bloodshed through love. Your people killed my people and my people have killed yours. What did we gain? We gained nothing for those we love are dead. If you are truly African join hands with us and lets share the land and the wealth. Bring your son and I will give him my daughter and give me one of your daughters for my son and we can build a new nation.

        • terence patrick hewett

          And the Xhosa will call the result “illawu” Best keep off the weed my mate.

          • Richard

            This iamig34 is an American, with the usual disconnect with reality.

  • justejudexultionis

    Great, now we have sorted South Africa, let’s introduce sanctions against Australia for their treatment of the Aboriginals…

  • andagain

    So he wasa Communist in the 1960s and changed his mind by the 1990s? He would not be the first man to change his mind in that way…

  • Hutch King

    Since the world is devoid of all-knowing people, liberty provides the leeway for each of us to adapt to the unpredictable circumstances and conditions we face.

  • stewball

    @thewaspman
    B’Jaysus and b’gorrah.
    I thought he was Kenyan. 😉

  • Ciaran_J_Goggins

    Is Obama even American? Time the real truth was told about the saintly Mandella and the myths blown away.

  • Ciaran_J_Goggins

    Mandela what a joke.

  • Francisco Ringoli

    Civilization developed as our ancestors discovered the ideas and institutions that enabled small bands to become tribes, chiefdoms, and nations.

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  • sarah7867

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  • Chris Hobson

    Mandela was also royalty which is ironic given his leftist fans.

  • Mark Foor

    I’m guessing that Obuttface knew EXACTLY what Mandela’s politics were….and I’m sure that he agreed wholeheartedly with them….Both of them had the same idea….total annihilation or subjugation of all white races on the planet….why does this not surprise me?

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  • Carrington M. Nye

    Did Mandela ever use the phrase: The government is having a party and we are not invited?
    Thank you.

  • Jacci Freimond Rudling

    End of it matter not one bit what he was like from 1974 – what matters is that he was instrumental in bringing peaceful change to a country on the brink of civil war. He was a believer in forgiveness and a instigator of change in South Africa.

  • Vicente Shade

    A speech made by former South African President P.W Botha to his cabinet about 28 years ago. It was reprinted by David G Mailu for the Sunday Times, a South
    African newspaper, in 1985.

    I quote…” We are not obliged even the least to try to prove to anybody and to the
    blacks that we are superior people. We have demonstrated that to the blacks in 1001 ways. The Republic of South Africa that we know of today has not been
    created by wishful thinking. We have created it at the expenses of intelligence, sweat and blood………We do not pretend like other whites that we like the blacks. The fact that, blacks look like human beings and act like human beings do not necessarily make them sensible human beings. Hedgehogs are not porcupines and lizards are not crocodiles because they look alike. If God had wanted us to be equal to the blacks, he would have created us all of a uniform colour and intellect. But he created us differently: Whites, Blacks, Yellow, Rulers and the ruled. Intellectually, we are superior to the Blacks; that has been proven beyond any reasonable doubt over the years. I believe that the Afrikaner is honest, God fearing person, who has demonstrated practically the right way of being……By now every one of us has seen it practically that the Blacks cannot rule themselves. Give them guns and they will kill each other.
    They are good in nothing else but making noise, dancing, marrying many wives
    and indulging in sex. Let us all accept that the Blackman is a symbol of poverty, mental inferiority, laziness and emotional incompetence. Isn’t it plausible? Therefore that the Whiteman is created to rule the Blackman……And here is a creature (Blackman) that lacks foresight….. The average Black does not plan his life beyond a year”.

  • russell Abruzzy

    name is russell i will like us to share tips on how to identify a
    real
    spell caster cos alot of people have fallen victim of scam as i
    have come
    across lots of comments lately (i was a victim too) and from
    experience and
    what i know i decide to open this thread, only fake spell casters
    ask for
    the followings:
    COURIER CHARGES: no matter where you are in the world, no
    matter the
    distance and continent a real spell caster will cast a spell
    effectively
    without you seeing it or the spell caster getting it to you to use it
    so
    long as he has the names or pix..the spell will work itself..
    STRAIGHT: no excuses for failure, if money was needed in the
    first place
    for courier he should have say so, so one can know how
    prepared he is..i
    did rather pay $2000 at once to get my result rather than paying
    $200 for
    excuses to get more money..its not bad paying for items but the
    end result
    might be an excuse
    THREAT: if you get fed up of sending money after money, they
    begin to
    threaten one with death and madness..
    NIGERIA; about 80% of them are nigerians not saying they dont
    have real
    spell casters cos they are spiritually gifted in africa but the
    impersonation is too much, the fake are more than the real..
    i fell a victim of scam twice to a certain dr wodu and dr isaka
    they but
    ripped me to shred before i realised almost $3700 was gone until
    i came
    across dr igodo who told me how to know a fake spell caster, he
    helped me
    get my ex back without failure or excuse in 5 days..we are back
    and happy
    now for about a month..his e-mail is
    greatigodospelltemple@gmail.com..
    lets beware of scammers and share experience, suggestion and
    solutions..thanks

  • Jaybee

    Mandela was in jail for in possession of handgranates and landmines.He was olso guilty to murder but was not trailed for that. The media try to make if he was in jail for been black. He is Obamas idol and look what Obama did do with America. Birds of the same feather flock together. African products.

  • WrinklyOldGit

    Mandela was arrested carrying a bomb intended to be placed in a white area market, which puts him in the same class of terrorists as radical hate preacher Hookey who lost his hands and an eye preparing a bomb in Jordan to kill non-muslims.

  • http://ajbrenchley.com/ fun-time freddie

    No surprise. I never believed that Mandela the Ghandi could be any more holy than Ghandi the Ghandi was (first names practically irrelevant). I never believed in Mandela the Saint, since no truly holy man or even very good man could have been partnered with that brutal witch of a wife that was Winnie.

  • pyewacket

    Yeah but he was young and foolish once. His worldview changed as the years progressed. It’s obvious that someone would try to dig some dirt after his death. Many of us would be embarrassed if confronted with our younger selves right now. If not, then either you were once a very mature kid, or you’re now an immature adult.

    • Richard

      In the capacity of a private individual, that is fine. But for the leader of a country, and political group (presumably he had to fit into the group, meaning there were shared opinions and beliefs) it is a bit more worrying, I’d say.

  • Diggery Whiggery

    “There’s no accounting for taste, but one wonders if Barack Obama would have said that if he’d known his hero batted for the opposition during the Cold War.

    ‘I hate all forms of imperialism, and I consider the US brand to be the most loathsome and contemptible.’”

    Obama would have agreed with him.

  • Sean L

    Our concept of ‘Africa’, I think, is for the most part a projection of American racial politics. That accounts for South Africa’s prominence: the only African polity with a settled white population of any significance. Elsewhere in Africa you’ll hardly see whites outside capital cities or tourist areas. And where everyone is black no specifically racial or *black* identity can take root, anymore than a *white* in hitherto mono-racial England.

    Instead group identify derives from ethnic or tribal membership and language. Comparable to the Celtic fringe here when they had their own language and cultures. But if we applied a comparable egalitarian standard irrespective of group membership throughout the whole of Africa, we’d have a lot mere than South Africa to deal with.

    Consider Kenya, where the Kikuyu dominate. Again comparable to the English in Britain. Similarly there’s nothing intrinsically unfair about it. As my Kenyan sister in law told be by way of explanation, “If you gave a Kikuyu £10k, in a year’s time he’ll have doubled it and have a thriving business. If you gave the same amount to a Luo, on the other hand, he’ll spend it on clothes and flashy car and in a year’s time you’ll find him back in the (Kikuyu owned) pub without a penny to his name.

    She is herself Luo though married to a Kikuyu. It’s worth noting that her Kikuyu mother-in-law scarcely recognises her existence unhappy that her son married a non-Kikuyu. But there are many affinities between the South African whites and Kikuyu of Kenya. And of course we could make comparisons with many other places WASPs in US; Chinese in Malaya; Jews in many places; Protestants in Ireland . . . As I say, I can only explain the obsession with South Africa in terms of American racial politics.

  • Hegelman

    Since the US was a racialism free place for blacks at the time. this is surprising.

    The US always opposed the apartheid regime most energetically. So did Britain. The Soviets on the other hand were die-hard apartheid backers.

    Mandela’s stance is therefore very hard to understand.

  • Delilah

    Obama is a Muslim himself, no wonder he opened the borders in the hope his “brothers” swarm in by their hundred-thousand to help him. He sold the American people, he sold the world… Scum, he should be impeached. Hopefully he knows Mandela hated America too. That is what you get when you want to politically correct, just vote the black guy…. uhmm and now? He fucked it up like the South African government fucked up a great country… we don’t even have electricity!

  • Sam van den Berg

    In the transition to majority rule in the early nineties, the Mandela myth played a major role in reconciling whites to a democratic future. Mandela himself was transformed by the myth, came to believe it, and became the embodiment of it. He was indeed himself a different man after his release. Yet while he worked hard at national reconciliation, for which he deserves our praise, he failed in one crucial area: as head of state and president. In the name of acting as part of a “collective” (sound familiar?) he appointed a cabinet prescribed by the Marxist-dominated “collective”. Crucially, it included the former street thug Joe Modise as minister of defence. Despite the fact that Modise’s corrupt dealings with suppliers of arms to Umkhonto we Sizwe during exile was no secret. Modise was a major force behind the corrupt arms procurement deal that cost the country dearly. Mandela was a national reconciler, yes, but he was also the smile on the face of the Marxist — indeed Stalinist — infiltrated ANC exile elite.who were biding their time. As the late Andre Brink stated, the ANC became the oppressor of the poor. Its rapid descent into corrupt autocracy after Mandela stepped down, culminating in the scandal of the Zuma administration, had been inevitable all along. It may have acquired capitalist values (with corrupt gusto) in economic matters, but its leadership has never lost its “vanguard of the proletariat”, Stalinist mind set. Mandela did indeed become a charged man. But the ANC has not changed by a jot. It is still the same organisation that took its orders from the Kremlin in exile and fought not the Apartheid state, but fought to defend the Kremlins’s client states across the borders. The only “Struggle” within South Africa was one of cowardly bombs in public places killing and maiming random innocent victims. The only reason for its willingness to negotiate was the collapse of the Soviet Union which deprived it of its international support base. Just as the National Party decided to risk negotiation after it lost its own secret support base in the West when the Soviet threat evaporated overnight.

  • marc biff

    “There’s no accounting for taste, but one wonders if Barack Obama would have said that if he’d known his hero batted for the opposition during the Cold War”we will be saying more or lee the same thing about Obama forty years from now.

  • Cymrugel

    I’ve never bought into the puffery about Mandela beings some sort of Ghandi figure, but this really is a bit much.

    The mans views and outlook evolved over decade’s spent sitting in prison. He was remarkably conciliatory all thing considered.

    Apartheid had effectively reduced the majority of people in South African to serfdom in their own country. It was backed up with utters ruthless violence and must surely have been the most grotesque system in the extended western word apart from segregation era Dixie.

    Its hardly surprising that Mandela supported extreme politics to challenge such an extreme system.

    • Richard

      That is not the thrust of the article. The comments section on this article are meant to be about the article, not about events in general. The article shows how Mandela was not what he was portrayed, but how that image was manipulated in order to win sympathy. That is all it does. It does not set out to defend apartheid.

  • Shorne

    So, Afrikaner writer still resenting the changes that happened in South Africa provides an opportunity for those who can’t accept that Obama was elected twice to rant on, nothing unusual really

    • Richard

      Not really. More like, Afrikaner writer resents lies told about Mandela in order both to discredit the government at the time who did not torture and kill (according to Mandela) and to elevate himself. But don’t let the truth interfere with your ideology. It might make you have a stroke.

      • Shorne

        ‘Did not torture and kill’ so who,for example, shot 69 unarmed demonstrators (mostly in the back) at Sharpville, Aliens?

        • Richard

          Unrest is different from what Mandela wrote about. Mugabe tortures a lot, for instance, and Idi Amin ate his opponents. There is a difference between those things.

        • Richard

          Of course, these days, it’s a very different story (excepting for the lack of Leftie moral indignation in the UK): http://mg.co.za/article/2010-03-25-police-shooting-deaths-at-12year-high and find the stats about 2013, where over 700 were killed. Then there’s also Marikana recently, with 34 deaths.

          Perhaps the ANC tortures and kills?

          • Shorne

            Why don’t you just come right out and say you approved of the apartheid regime and wish it was still in place.

          • Richard

            Because I never did. Perhaps being closer to it, I don’t have simple Disneyfied view of most Brits. You know, whites as Darth Vader and blacks as Yoda and Luke Skywalker. How to discuss with people indoctrinated by Labour and Brit-think? Very difficult.

            ——————————

          • Richard

            Because I never did. Perhaps being closer to it, I don’t have simple Disneyfied view of most Brits. You know, whites as Darth Vader and blacks as Yoda and Luke Skywalker. How to discuss with people indoctrinated by Labour and Brit-think? Very difficult.

          • Shorne

            My views were influenced by the white South Africans who opposed apartheid not the ones who revelled in the power and privilege the system gave them and who still mourn its passing.

          • Richard

            Ah, so to see the flaws in the ANC means you must have supported apartheid? To see millions of people dying of AIDS under ANC rule means you must have supported apartheid? To see graft and corruption at endemic levels means you must have supported apartheid? To point out that thousands of people have died at the hands of the police in the past few years means you must have supported apartheid? To finally have evidence of what Jesus Mandela actually said means that you supported apartheid?

            My advice is to go back to The Guardian, order another frappuccino, and adjust all the trendy bangles and bracelets that show your social commitment.

          • Shorne

            You really resent the fact that white rule ended in South Africa don’t you.

          • Richard

            Maybe I just resent that my former gardener died of cancer in poverty because his application for a state pension was one of those found blowing around in the township being used as toilet-paper.

  • Hegelman

    A veritable festival of hypocrisy. Side with the worst oppression, and then blame the guys who fought.

    Cultural Marxism? Maybe. It’s better than cultural hypocrisy.

    • Richard

      So better to believe in lies? “Worst oppression”? If you want to see the worst oppression, Africa provides plenty of examples, some of which include cannibalism, but I bet you’re not excited by any of those, since they don’t involve whites.

  • Hegelman

    If non-violent resistance could do the trick, why was there apartheid in the first place? And why did they not hand over to Luthuli? They had plenty of time to make up their minds.

    Why did the British resort to war against countless regimes?

    • Richard

      Meaning…?

  • http://twitter.com/WinstonCDN WinstonCDN

    Wasn’t he a soviet agent?

  • godot

    Nice work on digging up the dirt. Of course it is relevant, but people believe what they want to believe. Madiba has been elevated almost to deity level. These revelations, or any others that turn up won’t shake that.

    • Richard

      So it’s better to believe a lie than the truth? The article doesn’t deal with the ethical dimensions of the environment in which he lived, nor does it purport to do so. It merely states that he was changed from the person he was into something that was a lie, in order to win approbation. And, of course, the white government was discredited in the same way. It was turned into a zero-sum game typical of the Left: bad white, good black. If you think that’s a good thing, best of luck to you.

  • Gilbert White

    Rian you will never eat for free again, iconic story.

    • Gilbert White

      Gilbert where are all the comments?

      • freddiethegreat

        The Spectator is big on censorship

        • justejudexultionis

          Not as big as The Guardian.

          • Lo Bin Sun

            Try the Dail Mail, and its filter on ‘Imran Khan’ (the legal behind the Lawrence case).

  • Hegelman

    Just put a sock in it, Malan. Mandela was far more forgiving and decent than you ever deserved. The Communists were worth a million tonnes of you.

    • robertsonjames

      Those would be the Communists who slaughtered tens of millions of innocent people in the last century and turned entire countries into totalitarian prisons in pursuit of socialism? Or just the other Communists who willingly served as their eager apologists?

      • abel_kotze

        I will side with a communist long before I become a bankster slave!

        • Dan Black

          They are the same

      • freddiethegreat

        He’s a troll.

  • sus

    Why am I not surprised! He was no hero of mine! I always knew he is a murderer and a communist!

    • Fritz123

      So what?

  • justejudexultionis

    The ANC are corrupt anti-white racists who are hell-bent on destroying the South African economy.

    • Toy Pupanbai

      And Zimbabwe?

      • mumble

        Zimbabwe will be just fine until they run out of the mineral wealth China wants, including blood diamonds whereafter they’ll be left to their own devices, and good luck to them.

        Mugabe blows a lot of smoke about eternal vigilance against being re-colonised, which neatly distracts from the fact that they are a de facto> colony of China, except without all that pesky and expensive stuff about educating and uplifting the citizens.

    • Lo Bin Sun

      The Chinese will save all of Africa. They’ve already saved Zim with the yuan. (laughter in the background.)

      • Pieter Van Der Westhuizen

        Funny you mention that, I see it here in my part of the country. China has major plans for Africa. (we have a lot of land and China has a lot op people) http://www.focac.org/eng/zfgx/dfzc/t1322068.htm
        China’s also developing Naval infrastructure here on the West Coast and bought several mines in the area. From what I understand they also made an offer for the Anglo-American,Khumba Iron ore mine that announced 6000 retrenchments a week ago.

        • Lo Bin Sun

          Those ‘retrenchments’ will be replaced by China’s millions upon millions of ‘unregistereds’. Surplus to the one-child policy, they are the ones being sent abroad. A sort of advance guard, if you like.

          • Pieter Van Der Westhuizen

            Well, to be honest, its a very good way to solve a lot of their problems. Apparently they offer mining employment with low wages and accommodation to prisoners as incentive for reduced prison terms.

            Here’s a country full of opportunity, lots of space, center of all trade routes. Slack economic policies, corrupt officials. Just waiting to be overrun. Not to mention they are the stronghold of the Continent.
            (Which reminds me, our President thinks Africa’s the biggest continent on earth.)

  • Gilbert White

    Always wondered what the pop stars thought about hugging a man who had hugged a Gaddaffi who had people incarcerated dungeons that would make a Plantagenet blush.

    • abel_kotze

      Gaddafi was an all African hero and your ignorance of this fact shows…

      • freddiethegreat

        But then, so was Idi Amin

        • mumble

          And Nyerere and Kenyatta and Kaunda and Banda and Bokassa and Mugabe and…

        • abel_kotze

          Idi Amin was a British stooge an had no influence on the rest of Africa!

    • ChuckieStane

      Is this Tony Blair or Mandela you’re writing about?

      • freddiethegreat

        Same thing, really.

    • Lo Bin Sun

      You forget the tyre, filled with petrol, put around neck, set alight.

  • John P Hughes

    What Rian Malan writes about the success of the ANC in organising economic boycotts and taking on employers to obtain better pay from 1957 to 1961 is very interesting and (as he writes) not covered in the ordinary histories. However he only glancingly refers to the Sharpeville massacre of 1960. Without Sharpeville, economic boycotts could (on the evidence) have continued for much longer as an effective way to oppose at least some elements of apartheid.

  • Dryermartinithanyours

    A little like the real Gandhi, whose anti-Nubianism, liberal fascism, and oddly bashful letter to Hitler in 1939 asking forgiveness for writing him underscores the realities of all messianic mission-seeking, regardless of any ‘just cause’.

    • freddiethegreat

      and his racism. He wasn’t thrown off a train (that was Attenborough’s myth), but he raised a row about having to share a compartment with a “raw kaffir”. Nasty piece of goods.

      • Dryermartinithanyours

        Everybody wants to be a fascist. Except the liberal conservatives who are so freely accused of it by the rainbow alliance of liberal fascists. Andrew

      • Gilbert White

        So bloody Indian, in bloody Africa?

      • Lo Bin Sun

        And they renamed Point Road in Durban after this fakir. Can you believe it? Now for a GhandiMustFall mission . . .

  • Fritz123

    I dont care about isms, but couldnt it be that his isms mean something completely different from our isms? See also G.

  • abel_kotze

    In the struggle for rights and freedom, ANY weapon or ideology may be used! Trying to taint Mandela’s legacy with a communist brush is defending Apartheid and shows up this writer’s white bigotry. He seems to forget that John Voster as a member of the Ossewa Brandwag and performed many terrorist acts in his early life. This writer sounds the same as a Zionist crying victim whereas they are the most violent in the world. He should count his lucky stars that the white ‘race’ was not exterminated like elsewhere on the continent, because I (as a self-hating white man) believe that we deserved it! My criticism of Mandela and the ANC alliance is that they sold the country out to Western capitalism and this nation will suffer for it for at least another 2 or 3 generations.

    • Damon

      “This writer sounds the same as a Zionist crying victim… .”
      You mean, an Israeli. And you comment is still sloblock.

    • real horrorshow

      “In the struggle for rights and freedom, ANY weapon or ideology may be used!”
      Joe Stalin would have loved you. (Though, of course, you’d most likely have been shot in a subsequent purge.)

      “He should count his lucky stars that the white ‘race’ was not exterminated like elsewhere on the continent, because I (as a self-hating white man) believe that we deserved it!”

      Assuming that you’re not simply employing hyperbole for effect, I suggest that you seek professional help. I suppose I don’t need to point out that if someone suggested that the black ‘race’ should be exterminated, they would be dismissed as a contemptible bigot?

      • freddiethegreat

        Good think he hates himself. A lot of other people do to. Must be a whiny liberal.

        • abel_kotze

          The white man has been responsible for the slaughter of a billion ‘other’ people since the time of the ‘Prince of Peace’. It must be because of the 5-7% Neanderthal DNA they got stuck with!!!

          • Mr B J Mann

            Unlike the native North, Central and South Americans.

            Oh, and all those Cental Asian Hordes, not to metion the Chinese, Indians, Turks, Arabs…..

            Oh, oh, and Africans.

            You do know that the Africans in Southern Rhodesia and South Africa were invaders that wiped out the original African inhabitants?!

            But then you’re just trolling, aren’t you!

          • mumble

            By applying Western medicine in Southern Rhodesia, Dr. Jameson reduced the pre-colonial
            infant mortality rate from around 85% to something within sight of First World norms. Rather than genicide, this kicked off the fastest population explosion of history.

            If you’re looking for genocide, try Australia, New Zealand and North and South America.

          • Mr B J Mann

            Eh?

            Did you mean to reply to abel_kotze?!

          • abel_kotze

            Firstly, 3rd-world wars in the distant past were honorable and fleeing adversaries were never pursued. These wars were fought between warriors and civilians were never targeted and nature never destroyed. Even the Maori in NZ fought brave face-to-face battles, some body parts of the losing chief was eaten by the winning chief to gain his strength and POWs were enslaved but women and children assimilated. In WW1 civilian casualties was 5%, WW2 50% and every war thereafter 90% plus. It is only European hybrids that are warring to enrich oligarchs even more, and ignorant people are sold these wars under different bullshit flags: democracy, freedom, national interest/security. Current wars are about oil i.e wealth and this planet will be better off with whitey!
            You should study Southern African history. Except for the Nguni tribes migrating down the Eastern seaboard, there were hardly any wars of genocide. Women and children were never targeted.

          • Mr B J Mann

            You calling Obama a hybrid?!

            “Firstly, 3rd-world wars in the distant past were honorable and fleeing adversaries were never pursued. These wars were fought between warriors and civilians were never targeted”

            But, secondly:

            “Except for the Nguni tribes migrating down the Eastern seaboard, there were hardly any wars of genocide.”?!

          • http://rantingoldgit.blogspot.co.uk/ Arthur Sparknottle

            Are you familiar with the term ‘revisionism’? Your post is packed to the gunwales with it (third world wars in the past were honourable and fleeing adversaries were never pursued), It is almost hilarious that you could have written that. Africa has been blighted by genocide for as long as we have had records. The vile slave trade pursued by us British and other Europeans was merely a matter of taking advantage of the enormous slave trade that went on in Africa already and had been there for ever. Those poor people taken away from West Africa ports by European ships could never have been embarked had they not been captured and trekked to the coast by their ‘honourable’ African fellow inhabitants.

            Maybe you are an idealistic high school student or young undergraduate and I shouldn’t be too hard on you, but for goodness sake, please do try to grow up and see the world as it really is – packed full of venal, self interested people who do bad things, whatever their racial origin or cultural background.

          • http://rantingoldgit.blogspot.co.uk/ Arthur Sparknottle

            That DNA may actually be what makes them so much more successful and productive than the people who don’t have it – and, more intelligent. It is quite noticeable that the people with the 4% Neanderthal DNA (*) are massively more successful and far less criminal than the others. This is not only born out by world wide studies of mean intelligence, but by historical evaluation of cultural and economic development. I wouldn’t have brought up the discussion of racial differences myself, but since you did so, I felt I really ought to respond. Wherever they are in the world; whatever kind of political or educational environment they are in, the people without the Neanderthal DNA are on a population level, far more criminal, and far less successful. There has to be more to it than simple racism as so many on the left claim. It doesn’t apply to the Chinese and other east Asian races when living in western societies. They prosper and do very well. They also happen to be more intelligent on average than Europeans.

            * – Yes it’s up to 4% NOT 5 – 7%. Try to get the facts straight even while expounding your ridiculous opinions.

          • abel_kotze

            The difference between us is that I argue for non-racialism whereas

            you had to show the typical white supremacist prejudice and this actually proves my point 100%.

          • http://rantingoldgit.blogspot.co.uk/ Arthur Sparknottle

            You brought up a racial slur and I responded with facts backed up by academic research. Never mind the victimology, please explain why in EVERY society, the people who don’t as you put it, have the DNA of Neanderthals, do on a population basis, far less well than those who do. Please, while you are about it, explain why in EVERY society the same people find themselves in jail more than their proportion of the population would suggest, and also please explain why in their original societies, they achieved FAR less cultural and economic development. I’d really like some sensible explanation for these things and hope you can provide it. Thank you.

          • http://www.kremlin.ru The Great Stalin

            A hater of Christ, just like all the other Commies and liberal-progressives.

          • mohdanga

            And somehow us Neanderthals managed to build the societies that blacks can’t wait to get to. Oh, but it was all done with slave labour, blah, blah, blah.

    • freddiethegreat

      Most violent in the world? So the Israelis are actually Communist ISIS types! well, well

    • freddiethegreat

      OK – we – the resistance – are now struggling for rights and frredoms in South Africa. ANY weapon can be used – including powdered uranium. perhaps. Of course you’re happy about this so perhaps we can look to you for a levy payment every week.

    • King Kibbutz

      Why do you hate yourself?

    • Llewellyn Andrew

      You know nothing about Zionism, you are just another hate monger?

    • mohdanga

      Why do you hate yourself because you are white? Very strange.

    • Pieter Van Der Westhuizen

      By law, I have to be black or have to give a share in my business to a black person. It is a criminal offence to use the “K” word, but A State President may Utter the words”Kill the B, Kill the F”. I consider MY rights to be violated.

      Well Mr Kotze, does that then give me the right to start killing people? As you clearly state “In the struggle for rights and freedom, ANY weapon or ideology may be used!”

      • Richard

        It’s all about establishing power over the previous power-holders. If you look throughout history, you will see the same pattern.

    • George

      This country will never recover from Mandela’s & ANC rule……ever. As for “self-hating white man”? And “we deserved it”?Really? Newsflash!! They’ve been trying to exterminate the white man in South Africa ever since we landed up here in 1652 but hey,we’re still here.

    • IAmSipho

      Abel, people like you deserved it alright. Not the rest of us

  • £3forCorbyn

    Mandela proved that prison works. He was out, what, 15 years and he didn’t reoffend.

    He should have hanged really.

    • freddiethegreat

      He should have hanged, but he reoffended repeatedly. He launched ethnic cleansing in Natal (several thousand Inkatha members murdered) and he ordered the mass killing of 90 UNARMED (I was there) Zulus in Jhb, using illegal full auto weapons. Then he illegally prevented the police from entering Shell house, and illegally interfered with the process of justice.
      Terrorist first and last.

      • IAmSipho

        The Butcher of Shell House

    • greggf

      “He should have hanged really.”

      Quite.
      There’s dozens of more should hang – encore.

    • TrulyDisqusted

      He could have been freed much sooner – his imprisonment was a political embarrassment for South Africa.

      South Africa’s President de Kerk offered him his freedom many years earlier on condition that he renounce violence.

      Saint Nelson refused.

  • Marian Hunter

    OMG Malan has turned his coat yet again. From the twee, wheedling, so sorry I am a White person carp he wrote in “My traitor’s heart” to this. He doesn’t earn the right to wipe John Vorster’s a$$.
    Or Nelson’s.

    • Chris Smith

      Quite agree

    • Pieter Van Der Westhuizen

      Ja, I agree fully. If you cannot form or stick to your opinion, rather stop writing. This from Mr Malan, who couldn’t wait to run away from SA when the “Freedom” hit us in ’94. Nice and cozy sitting in a far away land, rewriting all sorts of crap that he reads in other publications.

      • Richard

        People act out of self-interest, and where once the Leftie world-view reigned supreme and was the way to riches, that is no longer automatically the case. He is simply doing what will give him power and riches. We saw enough of that with National Party politicians from 1990.

  • dwarfpoo

    I have read about enough terrorists for one week .

  • https://sites.google.com/site/deanjackson60/home Dean Jackson

    “here was a rich new source of virgin material to be scanned for the smoking gun, the inside and untold story of Mandela’s secret life as a communist plotter.”

    Oh, not just Mandela but the leadership of the National Party too! You see, dear ladies and gentlemen, the West was long co-opted by Marxists even before the National Party took the reigns of government in 1948. Query: When the USSR faked its collapse on December 26, 1991 (the West refusing to VERIFY the collapse should the ‘collapse’ be a ruse and if a ruse consigning the West to a future defeat), when did the staunch ‘anti-communist’ National Party alert the world to the ruse?! Ah, you never though about that, huh? The Marxist tactic of using false oppositions is an old one, and a tactic you were never made aware of when in school. Marxists utilize the tactic of employing false oppositions, more commonly referred to by Marxists as the ‘scissors strategy’, in which the blades represent the two falsely opposed sides that converge on the confused victims, neutralizing true opposition to socialism, thereby allowing the advancement of socialism to the bewilderment of the true opposition…

    http://www.attacreport.com/ar_archives/art_na_china.htm

    The following is a discovery I made in April regarding the fake collapse of the USSR, and what that fraudulent collapse proves about the institutions of the West…

    When Soviet citizens were liberated from up to 74 years of horrific Marxist oppression on December 26, 1991 there were ZERO celebrations throughout the USSR, proving (1) the ‘collapse’ of the USSR is a strategic ruse; and (2) the political parties of the West were already co-opted by Marxists,* otherwise the USSR (and East Bloc nations) couldn’t have gotten away with the ruse.

    ZERO celebrations, as the The Atlantic article inadvertently informs us…

    http://www.theatlantic.com/photo/2011/12/20-years-since-the-fall-of-the-soviet-union/100214/

    Notice, however, the Kremlin staged anti-government demonstrations that took place in Russia (and other Soviet republics) in the years immediately preceding the ‘collapse’, yet ZERO celebrations after the ‘collapse’!

    For more on this discovery see my blog…

    https://sites.google.com/site/deanjackson60/

    The above means that the so-called ‘War on Terror’ is an operation being carried out by the Marxist co-opted governments of the West in alliance with the USSR and other Communist nations, the purpose being to (1) destroy the prominence of the West in the eyes of the world, where the West is seen (i) invading nations without cause; (ii) causing chaos around the globe; and (iii) killing over one-million civilians and boasting of torture; (2) close off non-Russian supplies of oil for export, thereby increasing the price of oil, the higher price allowing oil exporting Russia to maintain economic stability while she modernizes and increases her military forces; (3) destroy the United States Armed Forces via the never-ending ‘War on Terror’; the ultimate purpose of the aforementioned to (4) bring about the demise of the United States in the world, opening up a political void to be filled by a new pan-national entity composed of Europe and Russia (replacing the European Union), a union ‘From the Atlantic to Vladivostok’; which will (5) see the end of NATO.

    Now you know how Bolshevik Russia survived in 1917; how the West ‘lost’ China to the Communists in 1949; why the Eisenhower administration turned a deaf ear to the anti-Communist Hungarian uprising in 1956; why the Eisenhower administration in 1959 was indifferent to the Castro brothers’ Communist fidelity, actually used the CIA to overthrow the Batista government; why the Nixon administration abandoned Taiwan for Communist China, and signed treaties/provided economic aid to the USSR; why the Nixon administration refused to tell the American People that over 50% of North Vietnamese NVA regiments were actually Chinese People’s Liberation Army soldiers (attired in NVA uniforms, and proving that the Sino/Soviet Split was a ruse, as KGB defector Major Anatoliy Golitsyn told the West back in 1962), thereby (1) ensuring the Vietnam War would be lost; (2) destroying the prominence of the United States abroad and at home; (3) breeding distrust between the American people and their government; and (4) securing Communist victories in Southeast Asia. Working in the background within the political parties of the United States and Great Britain were Marxist agents doing their best to (1) ensure the survival of Communist nations when they popped up; and (2) sabotage any policies that would bring down a Communist nation. That’s why after the fake collapses of the East Bloc nations and USSR there was no mandatory Western verification process to ensure the Communists weren’t still in control.

    Now you know why not one political party in the West requested verification of the collapse of the USSR, and the media failed to alert your attention to this fact, including the ‘alternative’ media. When determining whether the ‘former’ USSR is complying with arms control treaties, what does the United States do to confirm compliance? Right, the United States sends into the ‘former’ USSR investigative teams to VERIFY compliance, yet when it’s the fate of the West that’s at stake should the collapse of the USSR be a ruse, what does the United States do to confirm the collapse? Nothing!

    The fraudulent ‘collapse’ of the USSR (and East Bloc) couldn’t have been pulled off until both political parties in the United States (and political parties elsewhere in the West) were co-opted by Marxists, which explains why verification of the ‘collapse’ was never undertaken by the West, such verification being (1) a natural administrative procedure (since the USSR wasn’t occupied by Western military forces); and (2) necessary for the survival of the West. Recall President Reagan’s favorite phrase, “Trust, but verify”.

    It gets worse–the ‘freed’ Soviets and West also never (1) de-Communized the Soviet Armed Forces of its Communist Party officer corps, which was 90% officered by Communist Party members; and (2) arrested/de-mobilized the 6-million vigilantes that assisted the Soviet Union’s Ministry of the Interior and police control the populations of the larger cities during the period of ‘Perestroika’ (1986-1991)!

    There can be no collapse of the USSR (or East Bloc nations) without…

    Verification, De-Communization and De-mobilization.

    The West never verified the collapse of the USSR because no collapse occurred, since if a real collapse had occurred the West would have verified it, since the survival of the West depends on verification. Conversely, this proves that the political parties of the West were co-opted by Marxists long before the fraudulent collapse of the USSR, since the survival of the West depends on verification.

    Conclusion:

    The West will form new political parties where candidates are vetted for Marxist ideology, the use of the polygraph to be an important tool for such vetting. Then the West can finally liberate the globe of vanguard Communism.

    ————————-

    * The failed socialist inspired and controlled pan-European revolutions that swept the continent in 1848(1) taught Marxists and socialists a powerful lesson, that lesson being they couldn’t win overtly,(2) so they adopted the tactic of infiltration of the West’s political parties/institutions. In the case of the United States…(continue reading at DNotice)…

    https://sites.google.com/site/deanjackson60/now-you-see-me-now-you-don-t

  • Frank

    The conclusion seems to be that Richard Stengel is a communist / fellow traveller – is Barack Obama aware of this?

    • http://www.kremlin.ru The Great Stalin

      Of course he is. He’s one too.

  • King Kibbutz

    kkhkjh

  • haroldcrews

    Of course he was a communist. You would have to be willfully ignorant to be unaware of this fact. MLK, Jr. was a communist as well. Mandela destroyed South Africa. The end of Apartheid was the end of civilization in SA.

    • Llewellyn Andrew

      Civilisation, really, the way we treated black folk was in no way civilised or right.

      • Richard

        Well, that depends on what aspects you look at. For instance, Shaka killed and enslaved millions, which led them to running to the Cape Colony to seek asylum, which many were given. To the north, black chiefs and kings were most indignant at the abolition of slavery, and continued trading with Arabs in their own people until Britain put a stop to it. Hospitals and schools were built. There are a few things about which you might wish to think.

        Blacks were enslaved by whites, but whites were also enslaved by blacks. Less successfully, but that is only because whites were technologically more advanced. Read about the Barbary Pirates, if you want to know more.

      • Sue Smith

        You speak as though white people are the only ones capable of heinous crime. This reveals a glaring void in your understanding of human history. Not to mention an egocentric view in toto.

        • Llewellyn Andrew

          So you are denying apartheid happened? I was part of it. Of course I recognise that the black community is not without fault and have written about this before, much to the distaste of left wing nuts but also know the whites were not a group of innocent saints bar a small group who I was fortunate to befriend in the end and of course not all white people participated in the abuse.

          • Sue Smith

            If you look carefully at what I said I did not deny apartheid. And it exists today in many countries, including Malmo in Sweden. I was saying SA was not alone in having this practice.

          • IAmSipho

            WTF?

        • Llewellyn Andrew

          Never stated that but sure know what any human can potentially do when they base their judgements on hate and lies.

      • Pieter Van Der Westhuizen

        The mere way you stated “Civilization, the way we treated black folk” lol, Implying black folk is not part of civilization shows me you are a Hippocrate! You are a stain on the underpants of Civilization, really.
        PS Have you ever picked up a history book in your entire life?

        • Llewellyn Andrew

          I served as a soldier during Apartheid, one of the last groups of troepies. I know exactly what we did and then I am not speaking about the more violent element but about black people in general. I am not here to make excuses and telling the simple truth. We demeaned black people, treated them like children, some assaulted them and believed they were lower than animals. Even witnessed torture and abuse thrown at them. I was part of that history and do not need a book to tell me how it was.

          • Pieter Van Der Westhuizen

            The segregation concept was negotiated between the Boers and local Native tribes before 1900. Gaan lees weer bietjie oor Piet Retief. Don’t forget that the same people you fought, wouldn’t think twice to slit your throat.

            On a lighter side…”A rainbow nation” is represented by different distinct colors-not all colors mixed, because that would be white again?
            The “Apartheid” word is just a funky, catchy media term for “a period during which people In Power suppressed the general population”. The literal word means to “stay apart”.

            So, technically, we still live in “apartheid”.During “Apartheid” 30 Million Blacks were deprived of opportunities with no hope and 5 Million people had everything they desired (This also includes you by the way). Today, still, 45Million Blacks are deprived of opportunities and 5 million get what they want(Now, this excludes you). Come to think about it, its called Capitalism.
            Birds of a feather flock together.
            As a general rule, we all live in our own segregated areas, have segregated churches. White Afrikaans and English people don’t go to the same churches? What’s wrong with that? Gay and straight, out of choice, move in different circles. Black tribes don’t mingle too, Zulus and Xhosa’s don’t get along.

            When you were a soldier for the Government of that day, you saw one end of the stick. Today’s soldiers see the other end. I commend you though, not for what you did or what it represented, but that you served in defense of your country, as was your duty as a soldier. Your conduct during those times though, does not make me guilty of any offence.

        • farkennel

          Perhaps you need to buy a dictionary and look up “civilization”,and while you`re at it,look up “savage”.If you can get a Websters or an Oxford English pre political correctness you might find definitions that will surprise you.

      • vieuxceps2

        “we” treated black folk- ? I don’t know any black folk,so it wasn’t me. keep your insolent guilt to yourself.

        • Llewellyn Andrew

          We as apartheid whites bar a small group. Perhaps you were not a part of that so why stick your nose where it does not belong?

          • vieuxceps2

            You stuck my nose in. Stick to sticking your own snout in What use is it otherwise?

      • http://www.ukipforbritain.co.uk/ ukipforbritainwebsite

        Not ‘we’. The British were opposed to apartheid, and that was one of the reasons for the Boer war. The Americans and everyone else was in favour of it.

        • Lo Bin Sun

          Um, ever heard of the the Native Affairs Commission, Separate Development?

        • IAmSipho

          Idiot

          • http://www.ukipforbritain.co.uk/ ukipforbritainwebsite

            The rationale was – if Britain allowed the Boers to push forward with their extensive apartheid policies this would cause unrest across other parts of the Empire. The rest of the world – including the Americans – saw the Boers as an oppressed people who should be supported no matter what.

          • IAmSipho

            When do you think up this nonsense?

          • http://www.ukipforbritain.co.uk/ ukipforbritainwebsite

            After the British victory in the Boer War, the British allowed the Boers a considerable degree of autonomy due to the worldwide outcry at the harsh measures taken to bring about their defeat. It was only then that the British reluctablty let the Boers pursue their apartheid policies. They would neer have done it if the Americans and the rest of the world had not sided with the Boers. The British then concentrated on the newly won resources in South Africa.

  • DeltaNaught

    Is there ANY narrative related to anyone or anything from the left that isn’t a complete crock of sh!t?

  • Pieter Van Der Westhuizen

    I am surprised that despite the ANC’s communist ties with the SACP and COSATU, EFF, this is now mentioned as a huge expose. Laughable really…South Africans have been mowed down over the past 2 decades. Murder and ma hen is the order of the day. America and Britain did not ignore this, they have always been aware of it, in fact, promoted it. The weaker the Rand, the cheaper the imports. Gold, being the biggest import. Simple economics, really. “Kill the Boer, kill the farmer” is the party song being sung at Official Government meetings, lead by the President of the Country. In 10 year’s time America will “discover” that there’s such a thing as genocide in South Africa.

    • Richard

      Gold is traded in dollars, so the value of the rand is not germane. I don’t think either of the countries you mention wanted the deaths, but neither of them did anything about them. The simple truth is that white people are not an emotive issue for other white people. Black people are a hugely emotive issue to other blacks, and to whites. Blacks are a political issue, that can make or break careers and elections, whites simply aren’t. That applies as much in Europe and the US as in Africa.

      • Pieter Van Der Westhuizen

        Good point, but the fact that Gold is traded in Dollar actually didn’t help. Labor on the mines are paid in Rand, Equipment-Rand, Rent – Rand, Taxes-Rand. All of these are escalated once annually. Now, if I am the majority shareholder of Anglo American, Debeers or the like and my costs in terms of inflation rises at 6% per year but my Base currency of the Cost component de-valuates at say 10% per year, Id say, I’m doing business. Next we have Goldmine strikes due to laborers that complain about low wages. Next the Goldprice increase (In Dollars).
        If the rand sheds 25% In one Month I still get paid in dollars.So, I’m paying less for overheads, get a better price for my product and pay my costs with weakening Rand and earn strengthening currency. I see only one color here, Green. Europe and Us don’t produce 50% of the worlds Gold and their economies are not so unstable. That’s why South Africa makes the world rich.

        • Sue Smith

          Presumably you are still living there? A friend goes to SA regularly and she said it’s such a dangerous place that whites inside their homes have to lock the doors of each room behind them!! Nightmare scenario. True or false?

          • Lo Bin Sun

            Ask Oscar.

          • Sue Smith

            That was simply appalling. My sister thinks that trial judge had the ‘hots’ for Pistorious!!

          • Pieter Van Der Westhuizen

            Sue, we chose to live here. It comes with the territory. I picked up my late wife from the kitchen floor 3 years ago with 79 stab wounds. The person who did this raped her and tried to behead her with a spade. In court he said its because she disrespected him. He was released on parole for a previous offence and released on presidential pardon for “good behavior” after serving only half of his prior sentence. The indigenous tribes did not put 2 bricks on top of another before 1652 to develop this country. I will not leave the country my forefathers developed from nothing into the economic powerhouse of Africa. The same developments that empowered Black South Africans and no amount of complaints about so called “oppression” can deny this. If the indiginous people had the country developed when the rest of the world arived here I would have agreed, we were here later. Its theirs. The Statistics of police officers involved in crime and guns going missing from the state departments is revolting. We witness videos of black mobs and young children “witnessing” the brutal killing of another black person(This is not uncommon). Black people in townships(especially woman and older people are killed,raped and robbed and mugged every single payday). We all live in fear, we all witness our Government officials looting our tax money. White people just serve as scapegoat and it seams to be the focus of the media about what’s going on, while it is really lawlessness under young unemployed youth that is not prevented or addressed and in fact encouraged by their leaders. The “culture” is to take what you want because you are untouchable and previously disadvantaged. Its true that 99% of the time its old defenseless people that are attacked. The motive is financial and rape. It is considered an honor and a symbol of status in Jails if you killed/raped a white person. The tactic is that of a hyena. But we will not run away from this. We will patiently await YHWH’s wrath!

          • Sue Smith

            Sir, I was very distressed reading this and so was my husband! He knows a Van Der Westhuizen in Sydney, as it happens, also from SA. What happened to your “late” wife? She was presumably killed.

            You are very brave but, on balance, I’d have to say life only has a certain value and quality and I’d be getting out of there. Lots of SA expatriates (whites) are living in Perth, Western Australia. My sister sold her home on the Queensland Gold Coast – fully furnished – to a couple from SA.

            I’ve always regarded the blacks of SA and elsewhere in Africa, after colonial rule (remember the Mau-Mau?) as mostly totally incompetent, medieval barbarians. And yet, look what now happens to Europe while the “fashionable” people sit idly by and commend themselves for their ‘generosity’. The victim mentality breeds a viciousness in cultures everywhere which serves nobody. We have the same here in Australia with the ‘sittin’ money’ being paid to aborigines our previous PM described as “making lifestyle choices” to live in the bush where there is no work. People went feral when he said this, which only tells me how stupid the majority in the population are that there confected outrage knows no bounds. It is actually self-loathing which causes the indigenous peoples of Africa to behave towards others the way they do. And there’s that unforgettable murder scene in Zinnemann’s film “The Nun’s Story”.

            A friend who was born in Namibia and now lives in Verona, Italy, has just written his memoirs and sent them to me. He felt sorry for the blacks and said they were treated contemptibly by the whites. His father was a respected physician and his mother was a teacher. It makes fascinating reading. But my friend is beyond naive when he writes as he does. Better that he should live in Italy.

            My husband was born in UK colonial Fiji with black servants. He tells of these people being the most wonderful, warm and friendly nation of people you could imagine. Now they are swamped by Indians and have become their lackies instead of the whites.

            The more things change the more they remain the same.

            Good luck!

          • Pieter Van Der Westhuizen

            I am amazed that so little of our true history is actually known. As a child we were forced by the same “White Supremist Oppression Government” to learn an African Language (Setswana in my case) and in High School a European Language (Volentary – German or French) as well as English(Compulsory). Black students were, in the same fashion forced to learn Colonial Afrikaans.

            So, to be forced to learn a “native” language was for all people, black white, pink etc. Hardly an “oppression” if someone is forced to be educated. Especially if that someone has never invented anything or build anything while making a living stealing another tribe’s cattle(which would just be stolen back the next week and so on).

            Yes there were Colonial wars and Brittain killed Thousands of Dutch and French Colonials, Zulus etc. Likewise Xhozas and Zulus were having a go at each other. English and Zulu, Xhosa and Boers(as Dutch Colonials were known). Everyone fighting for his own place in the sun. Eventually the British realized that they did not have the financial capacity to wage war against multiple enemies indefinitely and ended the first war by making a deal with the first formal government ever in South Afrika. When gold was discovered in the Republic, the Colonials and indigenous folk already had an understanding going about the land and as a matter of choice, chose a segregated living approach. Problem solved. The discovery of Gold however, changed the rules and suddenly the republic was flooded with people from across the Globe who descended on Johannesburg like a swarm of bees, all wanting citizenship and voting rights. When President Kruger refused to accept this it was skillfully manipulated and later Jan Smuts a former Boer General and other were bought to betray their people.
            All of this can be viewed in hindsight as fair as all is fair in war. Colonial White people accepted defeat, despite it beiing hugely unfair and started joining the Brittish and started working on mines(with Blacks). In 1922 WHITE miners were killed when they went on an illegal strike and thousands arrested (4 executed). Only after this a union was established and then Black people started striking. You will NEVER read about the White middle class’s struggle in South Africa.

            Mr Rhodes’s net worth was Billions as far back as 1900. The amount of money that left South Africa in clear view of the world from that time onward is astonishing. The local Black man’s understanding of what really raped him, deprived him and enslaved him is a “white man”. He does not understand that wars are fought over money and that democracy, free trade and economics are actually the Master of the enslaved laborer. Him, being unable to embrace and utilize the power of the economy are therefore left to do what he has done for thousands of years. Let someone else build, develop and invent and then like you said, hijack it afterwards. Again, the Hyena’s tactic.
            So Pardon my French but I can sit here and Piss and Moan all day about how I was robbed etc. or I can accept that that is how we got here, carry on with my life and do my thing. I have never been hungry,worked for and deserved all I need. I have peace and I do not fear mere men. They can kill my body, sure, but my spirit can never be captured!

          • Sue Smith

            Well, thank you for that potted history. The history of the world is the history of strife, violence, greed, revenge and trying to get the most for the individual that one can. It is not limited to one race, creed or culture.

            Your comments about the people flooding into SA because of gold has modern resonance for what is current happening in Europe. But the dimwits there just haven’t got a clue. I’ll be long dead when the consequences are felt. Meantime, if people have “stockholm syndrome” in Europe then good for them!! They’re going to need it.

            I don’t understand the Hyena allusion, except that notable laugh.

          • Pieter Van Der Westhuizen

            We see a lot of analogies In the animal kingdom that reminds us of human beings. Every species has a way to survive and this completes the food chain. In nature, every species specializes in something and if you compare their behaviors all are magnificent in their own right. Go read up a bit on their behaviors. The animal kingdom’s much more interesting than politics anyway!

          • Richard

            The hyena tactic works, doesn’t it! In Europe it’s the cuckoo tactic.

          • vieuxceps2

            Sir,I commend you.

          • Marian Hunter

            Hi Pieter hoe gaan dit met jou vandag?
            I am Scots, a nurse, trained at Voortrekkehoogte as it was in the early 80’s.
            Did my psychiatry in Natal, and am witness to the murderous thuggery of Mkhonte we Sizwe on the Zulus. Myself and other colleagues in the streets and homes of Pietermaritzburg holding on to terrified children and their mothers while the savagery rained down.
            Trying to comfort the soldiers who went “bossies” when they saw what was waiting for them in Angola, no not only the monstrous hordes they were expecting but Russian and Cuban forces. .
            I watched the video and document you attached. What heartbreak for you and yours to lose such a vibrant beautiful young mother and wife, so much blood spilt in the name of a “New” South Africa. My mother and two sisters still lie there, a testament to a migrants’ hope for a better life. I managed to escape, eventually selling my car for the price of a plane ticket out.
            You are right to stay, it is what you believe in. It really isn’t greener on the other side of the fence. Sterkte.

          • Richard

            This is terrible. I understand that you don’t want to abandon the country, but I think the country has abandoned you. Do you really think it’s worth it? There is more to life than making a political point, which only has meaning for you. I lived in South Africa myself for many years, and was involved in education for part of that. My brother farmed in the Eastern Cape, and restored an 1820 Settler farm with his own hands. He had to leave, and it has now all fallen into ruin. Friends had a trading store in Zululand; she was raped, and he was stabbed, narrowly escaping with his life. Their families have all drifted away. After a couple of centuries, this is one family which has successfully uprooted itself. None of them, to my mind, regrets having left.

          • Pieter Van Der Westhuizen

            Hi Richard, Its not really a case of proving a point for us. We just never saw leaving as an option and decided to make it work here. I grew up in a working class family and left school in 92(Like millions of white south Africans). I had just finished school when all these changes came about. My parents didn’t have the means for us to go to university and I had to start working in retail. I never managed to accrue enough or go to university(although I did a Marketing diploma part time.) The rest of family still makes a living here and we have adapted to the environment. Besides, None of us really ever traveled overseas and since my parents are retired here, I kinda have no choice in the matter. Besides that, I love the land, this country will always be such a big part of me. Other countries have their problems. Communities have since taken over lots of government functions and we have a very effective system where the community patrols towns and neighborhood watches at night for no remuneration. We have effective communications etc. Whenever we do not get joy, we do things ourselves. People do a lot of crime prevention using this system and the police(who embrace this initiative) just do the administrative tasks etc. Besides not being effective, they dont get resources and do not have the means or the interest to protect us. We are so used to not having water and electricity that households all have generators, water tanks etc. In a way we have actually become very reliant on ourselves and we have as a result actually been liberated in a way.

      • Lo Bin Sun

        True. Take Ntokozo Qwabe, upending Oxford. Amazing. Now, if he had been Eugene Terreblanche I doubt whether he would have caused such hand-wringing and teeth sucking.

      • vieuxceps2

        It is the attitude to Black people by the libbylefties that causes harm They insist that they be given special treatment (affirmative action etc) thereby patronising them into child-like dependency.They have their own countries and their own governments,it is up to them to progress,just as we Europeans have done, slowly and with difficulty.
        As to blacks living here ,or whites or brown or striped, let each that has the ability and merit progress as equals. All else is racist.

    • Sue Smith

      I shouldn’t worry; pretty soon almost everybody who doesn’t have an interest in gold or diamonds or coal will have moved to Europe!!

    • aspeckofboggart

      “It’s better to be feared than to be loved.”

      A lesson taught to and taught by Mr Lee Kuan Yew, Cambridge tripos.

      • Lo Bin Sun

        Chia Thye Poh knows all about that. 32 years.

        Sorry, Nelson, you came 2nd by five years.

  • Beryl Knipe
  • Guest

    So he was a communist. Big deal. he had to deal with a white supremacist system. Fair enough for him to be a radical back then. And no, I am not a commie, or PC idiot. I hate those wan*ers. But context matters.

    • Richard

      That is the important thing to understand: the South African government were dealing with a radical. They saw the newly “liberated” countries expelling and murdering ethnic minorities, like Asians. And Mugabe was in the process of killing tens of thousands of Matebele. To this day commemorations of what the Shona did to the Matabele is outlawed.

    • jimmy

      You say “big deal” in a way meant to imply contempt. But in reality it was a big deal. Communism-socialism created evil repressive empires that murdered or starved tens of millions of people. In the Soviet Union it had a power with nuclear weapons where never mind not being allowed to vote, political enemies were murdered. Said power was desperate to gain control of South Africa. Mandela was both a fool and a dangerous man to have been willing to be a part of that. Had he succeeded at the time it would likely have meant many more deaths than the Apartheid system. Mandela had good sides, in the 1990s he became a symbol for reconciliation and quite probably saved much bloodshed. But a balanced view of the man has to include the fact that he was a terrorist, he was willing to see innocent women and children die to advance his political cause and he was willing to ally with a repressive and evil regime.

      In comparison “white supremacists” caused far less trouble although one must concede that in Africa the white man did at times go too far, there was bloodshed and that many suffered though many others saw benefits too. In Rhodesia for example the country was better and safer for both black and white while under white rule. South Africa continues to slide further and further into corruption and barbarism now with rape and murder rampant – in time many might conclude it was better under white rule too.

      • Guest

        He was an insurgent fighting against a fascist system. When he was in power, he was tolerant.

        • jimmy

          He chose violent means to fight, including the murder of women and children. Other greater men fought their battles without violence. Historians will, for example, rank Gandhi (admittedly the British Empire was generally more free than Apartheid South Africa) and Solzhenitsyn (who lived under a far more brutal tyranny than Mandela ever knew) as far more worthy of respect. The fact Mandela made nice speeches in the 1990s doesn’t change history. He made the choice to kill women and children, he didn’t have to do that.

          No man is perfect, he had, like all men, good and bad sides. It is the ridiculous attempt to portray him as a Disney character without blemish that is ignorant.

  • Felix Ewane Féfé Ntube

    So what’s new or strange about being communist when you socalled democrats were/are PROAPARTHEID?No matter what you write or dig.MANDELA is and will remain one of the world’s greatest figures of all times.I don’t understand why the WEST often tends to dictate what people should believe,live and also how?MANDELA FOREVER!

    • Richard

      Mugabe is certainly pro-apartheid. So were the East Africans who expelled all the Asians. Mandela never said a word about that to my knowledge. And he said precious little about Mugabe.

      • Sue Smith

        And, don’t forget, apartheid now exists in Malmo and is coming to a European city near you.

        • Wessex Man

          It still now lives in South Africa only now it’s the whites who live in shanty towns as bad as refugee camps surrounding Syria, how about taking twenty thousand of them Dave?

          • Sue Smith

            Sir, this has always been my argument. If Merkel seriously wanted a boost the population to support the aging German one she could could have looked no further than the clever and innovative South Africans and many others from the developed world. And that’s why I suggest to you that what she said what was an out and out LIE.

          • Neil Saunders

            To boost an ageing population you need to reverse second- and third-wave feminism and neoliberalism.

            You need to repatriate all the real jobs that have been outsourced or offshored to low-wage economies abroad.

            You then need to give men, especially, meaningful, reasonably-paid work with decent conditions and security of tenure. That way, the state will no longer seem to women of childbearing age to be a better provider for any children they might (and many will) have than the apparently feckless or unemployable men who physically father them.

            This means fighting a war on two fronts: 1) Against political correctness in the sociocultural sphere; 2) Against neoliberalism and globalisation in the economic and political sphere.

            This in turn requires a serious re-think about what is genuinely left-wing (or socialist) and what is genuinely right-wing (or conservative), and indeed whether these terms are misleading rather than illuminating.

          • Neil Saunders

            Oh, and obviously you need to halt and – as far as possible – reverse the mass immigration to first-world nations from third-world ones, and make your borders secure.

          • Sue Smith

            Well, this is done and dusted now. You are now in crisis-management phase and this will continue. A muslim woman (rights activist, so they have their own – not ours!!) was hostile last night on a TV interview program because the people ‘unfairly target’ muslims and are openly mistrustful of them. She complained they are more and more the victims of surveillance and ‘unreasonable’ expectations in the host countries!

            So, not only breathtakingly stupid but also ENTITLED.

          • Neil Saunders

            [Rhetorical Question Alert] If we’re so unfair and mistrustful, why do they keep arriving and settling here in such huge numbers?

          • Leon Wolfeson

            It’s not rhetorical at all. Your views are those of a small minority. You’d make it unsafe for anyone, not only immigrants, of course.

          • Neil Saunders

            How do you know how many share my opinions, Leon? Are you an expert pollster? Thought not.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            The BNP got 1667 votes at the GE. Further right parties got less. Very few with your views.

            You don’t think, no, thanks for admitting it for the record

          • Neil Saunders

            FTPT = no democracy.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            I disagree. It’s less representative, but still democracy.

            Do I want PR? Specifically MMP/AMS? Heck yes.
            Do you?

            Doesn’t change the consistently very low vote totals of the parties right of the BNP, of course.

          • Neil Saunders

            No, FPTP is not democracy but a “form of democracy” (i.e. a sham).

            Yes, some kind of proportional system is the only way to go forward. It would have given many more votes to nationalist parties at the last General Election, of course, thus quite invalidating the figures you gave (under the present, utterly unrepresentative FPTP system).

          • Leon Wolfeson

            “It would have given many more votes to nationalist parties at the last General Election”

            You have no way of proving that. Voting patterns would be radically different under PR, parties would be far closer their voters (and that’s the point!).

            Moreover, the numbers given for the extreme right in voting match up well with other data sources, but details!

          • anna miller

            You implement fallacies and faulty logic in your statements. Please take a course in logic.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            No, I am not writing your posts, as you stand with so few…

          • anna miller

            I am standing with a rapidly increasing populace of people.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            Less than 1667 people voting for the less extreme BNP at the GE, as I said.

            Got 100 yet?

          • anna miller

            If you look a little closer at the results, the outcome does not
            reflect Ukip’s popularity. Considering total number of votes rather than
            seats, it actually came in third place with 12.6 per cent, falling
            behind only the Conservatives and Labour.

            This compares to the SNP, which won 4.7 per cent of votes yet
            managed to secure 56 seats in parliament, and the Lib Dems who secured
            eight seats with 7.8 per cent of the votes.
            Not
            only that, but of all the parties running Ukip made the biggest gain in
            popularity compared to the last General Election in 2010.
            Not only that, but of all the parties running Ukip made the biggest gain
            in popularity compared to the last General Election in 2010.
            Ukip’s vote share has gone up by 9.5 per cent – an increase that
            was over three times greater than the SNP’s 3.1 per cent rise in
            support.

            Conservative and Labour support went up
            by just 0.8 per cent and 1.5 per cent respectively, while Lib Dems lost a
            massive 15.2 per cent.
            So how did things go so wrong for Ukip? It’s all because of the current
            voting system. Although the party received a lot of votes, there was
            only one seat where the party’s support exceeded that of any other party
            – it regularly came in third place and occasionally in second place.
            Similarly, Farage’s party would become a genuine parliamentary force under a proportionally representative system. Under proportional representation,
            Britain’s political landscape shifts radically: Ukip suddenly has 82
            seats and the Greens 24. Conversely, the cohort of SNP MPs shrinks to
            31, while the Tories lose 90 seats, with the likely result being that
            Britain would have been faced with another coalition instead of a
            Conservative majority.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            Oh look, I support AMS/MMP voting.

            But you can’t simply draw lines and pretend people vote identically under it.

            You forgot to mention you don’t want Jews to have the vote, btw, and your smearing UKIP with people far, far further right is sad.

          • anna miller

            This is what is sad.
            Is Britain now Too Gerrymandered To Be A Genuine Democracy?

            Your second statement is so entirely absurd, I will chock it up to paranoia.

            https://medium.com/@georgetaitedwards/is-britain-now-too-gerrymandered-to-be-a-genuine-democracy-fe2fcbd95d14#.lrji9nqap

          • Leon Wolfeson

            So you blame yourself for your rejection of something completely uncontroversial in studies for voting…

            As you talk about your preference for gerrymandering.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            Ah, obviously purge those of the wrong type, and seal the borders shut. Right.

          • Neil Saunders

            Your choice of words is deliberately provocative in a clumsy attempt to smear me. I am not proposing pogroms or a Final Solution. However, we need secure borders, whatever you and your globalist pals might want, Leon.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            I see, being too mild am I, as you want to stop people from even fleeing, as you try and link me to groups in your mind.

            So, your 100% cast-iron borders, which reject even trade…

          • Sue Smith

            The brief, as you’ve outlined it here, is too onerous. That’s why Merkel has just thrown in a grenade and walked away. I predict that over the next 5 years the whole of Africa and much of the Middle East will have evacuated to Europe, Scandinavia and the UK. Calais camps will spring into cities in themselves, full of squatters, violence and infighting immigrants – becoming THE wellspring of terrorism going forward.

          • Neil Saunders

            In other words, our leaders have brought about a situation where severe civil strife is inevitable. This is a prospect which chills me to the marrow.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            No, Mr. Chiller, you’re trying to cause civil strife. There’s a difference.

          • Neil Saunders

            Explain how I’m (allegedly) trying to do just that, Leon. I bet you can’t.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            So, what are you paying and to who? As you lost your bet. (Or are you lying?)

            The answer being of course your words and actions.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            Ah, strip away women’s rights and start the hard core nationalism. Have unproductive, state-funded jobs for men. Your war against society and Britain…you’re neither socialist or conservative, but well to the right of them.

          • Neil Saunders

            No, I specified that the jobs I wanted were to be both “meaningful” (in the sense of making a genuine contribution to society and its material needs) and secure. Many would (or ought to be) in the state sector, since we’ve all seen how well privatisation has worked out (hmmm!), but some would remain in the (properly regulated) private sector in the kind of mixed economy I envisage.

            Women were never given the chance of paid work to enhance their “rights”, but to undermine the hitherto predominantly male (and largely unionised) workforce, in order to drive down wages, conditions and security of tenure.

            You, Leon, are that most contemptible of things: someone who is Politically Correct on social and cultural issues, but neoconservative/globalist in economics.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            Yes, right, genuine state-supported jobs which support your social model, and ones which people are tied to as in the communist era and countries…right.

            And right, a tiny “private” sector in your government-controlled economy.

          • Neil Saunders

            A grotesque parody of the kind of mixed economy I support.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            Yes, right, there’s still a shadow of a free market involved there, I should of guessed you’d find that unacceptable as a capitalist.

          • anna miller

            no he just has common sense and can think for himself through basic observance, while you on the other hand, insist on pidgeon-holding people and categorizing them.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            I am not writing your posts, no, as you defend his views, and try and conflate hate and common sense…

          • anna miller

            to a cultural marxist, anyone who has a different viewpoint is a
            “hater”. What a convenient method for preventing a genuine exchange of information, much like the tired and very worn out “anti-Semite:.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            So you’re a cultural marxist, right, I hear you and your determination to suppress discussion.

            As you try and excuse extremist views, check. You dug up a months-old post to whine at..

          • anna miller

            This is the first time I have visited this web-site. I did not “dig up a months-old post to whine at”.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            So you deny the *facts* about what you did, check.

            Fact; The post you replied to was months old.

          • anna miller

            I actually came upon this web-site by randomly researching another topic.
            I have no idea to what you are referring. paranoia.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            “paranoia.”

            On your part? Seems to be, as you deny post dates…and as you admit random Jewhate spam…

          • Pioneer

            Interesting interview, talks about indoctrination:

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vLqHv0xgOlc

          • Neil Saunders

            Yes. modern feminism has been extremely useful in advancing the agenda of global corporate capitalism.

          • anna miller

            Brilliant analysis.

  • http://www.ukipforbritain.co.uk/ ukipforbritainwebsite

    Mandela never renounced violence. That’s a PR myth. He simply kept his real opinions to himself, but in private expressed himsefl more freely. Dancing to ‘Kill the Boer’ was a joyful experience to him in the 1990s. The almost genocidal outbreak of violence in South Africa since the end of apartheid didn’t happen accidentally – it was a direct result of his and the ANC’s policies. This is a brutal truth the West refuses to admit.

    • Michael990

      He kept the violence at arms length by arranging for his wife to run the ‘football team’.
      Despicable character.

  • JabbaTheCat

    Mandela was always a marxist flipflop just like the rest of the ANC leadership and it was only western libtards who thought otherwise…

  • Pieter Van Der Westhuizen

    All this reminds me of Animal Farm – George Orwell
    “All animals are equal but some are more equal than others”

  • Sue Smith

    I would need to be very suspicious indeed about ANY person feted by the bien pensant. It’s like the kiss of death.

    • Frank Marker

      Indeed. They are as fickle as screaming girls deciding who will be next in their boy band affections.

  • right1_left1

    As far as I am aware no radical upset of the socio /political status quo has ever occurred without violence.
    or
    No maintenance of injustice, or justice for that matter, has been sustained without violence.
    Whether that violnce is considered good bad just unjust will be decided by factors other than a pristine attitude to violence.

    For example I think that Israel includes violent terror in it’s approach to the Palestine problem.
    For the probable majority who disagree ask yourselves why

    If it’s wrong for Mandela its wrong for Netanyahoo…isn’t it ?.

  • Jackthesmilingblack

    The CIA betrayed Mandela’s location to the SA authorities, leading directly to his arrest and incarceration.
    Wicked Uncle Sam

    • Marian Hunter

      Timothy McVeigh was fried for the same crime.

  • RuariJM

    “at the time of his arrest in 1962, Nelson Mandela was a member of the SACP’s innermost central committee.”

    Yes, and..?

    Believe it or not, Rian, this is not a recent revelation. The great surprise and gift of Mandela to South Africa is not that he was a member of the Communist Party in the 1950s and 60s, and even into the 70s; it is that he came out of 30 years in prison, which was preceded by decades of humiliation and racist oppression, and he came out committed to peace. The Mandela Miracle – if it could be called that – was that power was transferred from a racist minority regime to the majority, democratically and without the bloody civil war that many of us expected.

    Sorry, this story isn’t the scoop you might have thought it was.

    • IAmSipho

      But the current eff-up started under that old fraud

      • RuariJM

        I get it, you really don’t like him.

        Is that because he was black? Is it because you’re a white South African? A Terreblanche fan? Ouranjia supporter?

        • George

          All South Africans are living his so-called legacy today.More people die violent deaths in one year in this country than ALL the deaths over the Apartheid years combined. Shocking hey? But unfortunately true.By the way,I see you like him? Is that because you’re not white or because you just hate white Afrikaners,or both?

          • RuariJM
          • Renier Gouws

            Yes really. As I showed above, the number of deaths allocated to the apartheid gov was 7,000 over 42 years, which is 167 per year.

            The current number of murders per year is 18,000 per year.

            So yes REALLY.

            https://africacheck.org/factsheets/factsheet-south-africas-official-crime-statistics-for-201314/

          • RuariJM

            What he said was:

            “More people die violent deaths in one year in this country than ALL the deaths over the Apartheid years combined”.

            Was something lost in translation?

          • IAmSipho

            No, something got lost in your “brain”

          • George

            Thanx Renier.I thought I got my point across.Read my reply to RuariRJ. Keep well.

          • George

            Yes,really.You can go read your liberal propaganda BS yourself. The deathrate did go higher in the eighties,thanks to the unrest caused by Mandela’s buddies.Fact is,if you compare violent deaths/100 000 from the Apartheid era to the current figures,there is no comparison.(On average 18 to 20 000 people are viciously murdered every year.) Futhermore,South Africa’s figures(using the same format) compared to the rest of the world,is shocking.The country ranks amongst the higher 20% in the world when you look at murders,rapes,violence against woman,violent assaults,hi-jackings and I can go on and on and on…..Even the deaths by road accidents is around 35-38/100 000,which is ALSO amongst the highest in the world. You’re welcome to go compare ALL these figures now and compare them to the well documented figures during Apartheid.You’re in for a nasty surprise. Then,you can go look at corruption and a few other things……But hey,at least we’re “free”,and judging by recent developments regarding freedom of the press,gunownership,job reservation for blacks,BEE,the drastic rise in anti-white expression & sentiments,and many more,who knows for how long?

          • Renier Gouws

            The ANC created “Human Rights Commission” and the “Truth and Reconciliation Commission” decided to determine how many black deaths the apartheid government was responsible for. No doubt they believed that it would amount to millions, as they also fell for the international propaganda.

            They took every known conflict and added the numbers together and asked every single black person that knew of someone that went missing during apartheid to please come forwards. Whether it was a friend, uncle, aunt, grandfather etc. In a lot of cases the blame for the missing person was allocated to the apartheid government, even though some of these people could have gone missing due to black criminality.

            What was the result?

            Over the 42 years of apartheid rule, a grand total of 7,000 deaths was determined to be the fault of the apartheid government. This included the deaths of all black uprisings and riots. A mere 167 people per year. The ANC was very disappointed with this result and quietly dropped the issue. No doubt they would have manufactured more deaths if it was possible, but they could not.

            This result is still in the public domain on the website of the TRC.

            What people do not realize is that South Africa was the first Iraq, whereby the truth is distorted via propaganda to affect a regime change in order to benefit financially from the oil, or in the case of SA, it’s mineral wealth.

        • farkennel

          I have to assume that you support the hunting down and murder of Terreblanche?

          • RuariJM

            You know what you do when you assume?

            You sincerely make an ‘a s s’ out of ‘u’ and ‘me’.

            But especially you.

          • farkennel

            That is sheer genius.I must assume you made that up all by yourself.

          • anna miller

            He is incapable of having original thought. He can merely parrot what he hears or reads from mainstream propaganized, social engineering. He is programmed.
            What I find infuriatingly amusing, is how arrogantly satisfied he is with himself.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            You’re male? Hmm.

          • farkennel

            As long as his nonsense doesn`t surprise you.

          • anna miller

            I appreciate your contributions to this discussion. I guess I got a bit carried away and made the mistake of feeding the trolls. peace.

          • farkennel

            You haven`t fed a troll.You merely put a fool in his place,should be more of it.

          • anna miller

            Oh we are desperate enough to reach for that old cannard.
            No he “presumed” you support murder, because of all your previous comments.

        • IAmSipho

          No. A realist

        • Dominic Stockford

          Because he was a murderer, for whom killing was an end in itself. It was justified as a tool of the oppressed.

        • Jonah Varlik

          “Sipho” is not a white name. And there are plenty of capable black men in SA, but they don’t use bribery and terror to rig elections.

    • Jonah Varlik

      He wasn’t in prison for overdue library books. He had not a single thing to “forgive”. He should have been hanged.

      • RuariJM

        How closely related to Eugene are you, Jonah? Son? Brother? Both?

        • Jonah Varlik

          Actually, I’m coloured.

          • RuariJM

            And?

          • anna miller

            Now you are attempting to pretend that that has no weight.

          • RuariJM

            It doesn’t.

    • anna miller

      “democratically and without the bloody civil war that many of us expected.”
      Have you done any research, beyond of course the mainstream media narrative, which is almost pure propaganda and distortions, but even there you get parts of truth, you just must do deeper research.
      The government now in South Africa is deeply corrupt. South Africa is one of the most violent societies on Earth. They can’t blame the whites anymore. The official king of South Africa’s Zulu tribe has announced that that
      country was economically, militarily, and socially better under white
      Afrikaner rule—and that history will judge blacks as only having
      destroyed everything that they had inherited from the white government.
      http://newobserveronline.com/zulu-king-blacks-destroying-south-africa/

      • RuariJM

        Well, I think the world would have noticed if there had been a bloody civil war when power was transferred, more than 20 years ago.

        The leadership of the country is now corrupt – there is no argument about that – but this article is about Nelson Mandela, not Jacob Zuma.

        However, even in the depth of corruption, anyone who claims that the country was “…economically, militarily, and socially better under white Afrikaner rule…” is either deeply ignorant (a condition that can be cured by education) or in need of therapy, to help them to overcome delusions.

        Your other postings make clear what part of the political spectrum you are coming from. Mandela was a Communist – everyone knew that. He moved on.

        There is more than a suspicion of racism about your postings. Come back when you have moved on from that.

        • anna miller

          To a cultural Marxist, any time one points out documented behavior by others, if that person or group of people is of a different race, then that assertion is labeled as “racist”. You have been socially engineered and you don’t even know it. The Zulu people are an ethnic group of Southern Africa and the largest ethnic group in South Africa, with an estimated 10–11 million people living mainly in the province of KwaZulu-Natal.
          The official king of South Africa’s Zulu tribe has announced that that
          country was economically, militarily, and socially better under white
          Afrikaner rule—and that history will judge blacks as only having
          destroyed everything that they had inherited from the white government.
          And your response to this leader of the Zulu King, was that “he is either deeply ignorant, a condition that can be cured by education, (Cultural Marxist education I’m sure) or in need of therapy”.
          And you call others racists.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            So to you…right, thanks Ms. Cultural Marxist.

          • anna miller

            You seem compelled to respond to my comment, but offer no logical rebuttal, just more childish insults.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            So you think you have magical powers, as you which facts are not logical, child-hater…

          • anna miller

            You are slipping into mad paranoia at this point. Perhaps this might explain the behavior.
            Variations of the DNST3 gene make Ashkenazi Jews 40 percent more likely to develop schizophrenia and similar diseases.
            read more: http://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.premium-1.560128

          • Leon Wolfeson

            Ah yes, wild accusations of mental illness, check.

            Your far right are far more prone to criminal activity – want to blame genes for that too?

          • TartanTerrier

            Child hater….really ”Leon’ ….you are off yer rocker boyo!

          • Leon Wolfeson

            So you say facts from people’s posts, “Hatrer”, mean people are mad. Hmm.

        • anna miller

          The Zulu / Bantu ethnic group of Southern Africa is the largest ethnic group in South Africa, with an estimated 10–11 million people living mainly in the province of KwaZulu-Natal.
          The official king of South Africa’s Zulu tribe has announced that South
          Africa ” was economically, militarily, and socially better under white
          Afrikaner rule—and that history will judge blacks as only having
          destroyed everything that they had inherited from the white government”.
          Your response to this highly esteemed black man, was that he is “either deeply ignorant (a condition that can be cured by education)
          or in need of therapy, to help them to overcome delusions”. Would that “education” be a stay in a “re-education center”? So he could be deeply entrenched in Cultural Marxism, just as you have been?
          He disagrees with you, so therefore he is ignorant or insane.
          And you label others as racist.

          • RuariJM

            You have established by your own words that you are an antisemite.

            No more needs to be said.

  • IAmSipho

    Well Obama is still batting for the opposition, both the moose-lums and despite his marriage, the other team

  • WFB56

    “..but one wonders if Barack Obama would have said that if he’d known his hero batted for the opposition during the Cold War.”

    Of course Obama knew, that’s why he was so emotional towards his fellow traveller.

  • Hegelman

    “”..but one wonders if Barack Obama would have said that if he’d known his hero batted for the opposition during the Cold War.”

    Black people were effectively disfranchised and treated as segregated aliens in the “free” USA until the mid 1960s.

    It was the Soviets who supported the anti-apartheid struggle while the West backed the South African regime.

    • Andre De Graaff

      Do you really think Russia was concerned with the plight of the black man? you are a fool. They wanted SA’s resources in their world domination plan. Wake up.

      • Jonah Varlik

        YEs. Karl Marx regarded black people as monkeys

    • anna miller

      It is too bad that the Western governments don’t condemn Israel for their ongoing genociding of the Palestinians. Israel only allows Jews to immigrate. Jews can only be married in a religious ceremony, by an Orthodox rabbi under the authority of the Chief Rabbinate, the top religious authority for Jews in Israel. This means there is also no interfaith marriage between Jews and non-Jews.
      Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu rejected a call to host refugees from Syria and elsewhere,
      saying that while Israel is “not indifferent to the human tragedy of the
      refugees,” it is not in a position to take them in.. Same-sex marriage in Israel is not a legal option in the State of Israel. Yet the Jews love, just love to push gay marriage and multi-culturalism onto everybody else.

  • hyena

    Who will light a candle for these anonymous victims of murders perpetrated by mandela and his gang? WHo will remember the people who had rubber tires put around their heads and light up? People who’s only crime was that they were white? People who are ignored by history, because they were murdered by the most righteous man on earth – Mandela? UK is much to blame for the genocide of whites in Rhodesia and South Africa. The day will come to pay the price.

    • Renier Gouws

      Britain;s day is approaching very fast now. The Boer prophet, Siener said 100 years ago that Britain will be completely destroyed and he specifically mentioned that it would happen via mass immigration. Their crimes against humanity are coming home to roost.

  • Henry Butler-Sloshed

    The only UK politician with balls, Margaret Thatcher, knew that Mandela, as a head of a terrorist organization (ANC), was a terrorist himself.

    All the other politicians (the ones before and after Thatcher, including Cameron) were cowed by Africans, becoming self-loathing, guild-ridden politically correct cowards.

    • Harryagain

      People that never invented the wheel.

    • Howard Roark

      If she KNEW he was a terrorist, why didn’t she have SAS or MI-6 have a sniper take him out? Why? Because politicians are all talk, and no action.

  • Keith Cameron

    SA should have done the world a favor and killed Mandela instead of capturing him.

    • Daidragon

      Then the world would have stood by and watched as the africans slaughtered every white in SA.

    • Jonah Varlik

      In any other country in the world at that time, Mandela would have been hanged. Not even Amnesty International would call for his release, as he wasn’t a political prisoner. He was ONLY sentenced for treason, murder and terrorism

  • Mpho Rammusi

    what is wrong with being communist , what has capitalism brought the world , economic meltdown and white supremecy inthe form of America.

    • Obamadon_Imbecilis

      Communism killed 100+ million people in the 20th century alone. Capitalism has brought the world unimaginable prosperity and technological innovation. A world without modern industrial capitalism is one in which 1 in 4 children die before their 5th birthday.

    • Renier Gouws

      Nothing, but the truth about Mandela is that he wasn’t a peaceful man as the world portrays him to be, but a communist and a terrorist responsible for the deaths of innocent people including babies. He was thus evil.

      • Dominic Stockford

        He certainly committed and justified evil acts, but was he evil? More difficult to say. More evidence required.

        • Jonah Varlik

          Would you like to be necklaced? Would that convince you?

          • anna miller

            or perhaps he would just rather watch others get necklaced, because afterall,
            they certainly must have deserved it!

    • Andre De Graaff

      Communism tries to remove spritual freedom and freedom of religion. It is obvious that the ideology gave rise to dictatorship of its own. Need I go on?

    • Enoch Powell

      The murder of 100 million + people perhaps?

      • Thought Criminal 99

        “The classes and the races too weak to master the new conditions of life must give way. They must perish in the revolutionary holocaust”. Karl Marx in his ‘Peoples Paper’ April 16th, 1853.

        • mrfixit123

          Marx never meant perish literally. it was a metaphysical economic movement.

          • Thought Criminal 99

            So when marx wrote “they must perish in the revolutionary holocaust” he didn’t mean “they must perish in the revolutionary holocaust”. Even though subsequently millions of them DID.

        • anna miller

          I just read today the details of the Holomador and the Jew’s involvement.
          outrageous.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            Yes, I’m sure Stormfront…

    • William Matthews

      “white supremacy?” eh?

      Given that the Western European civilization was something of a ‘late starter’ compared to other civilizations: Indian, China, Africa and the middle-east for example, and our development was held back further by the Islamic empires annexation of Greece and partly of Rome, creating the European Dark Ages, frankly the rest of you have only yourselves to blame.

      And what do you suggest replaces Capitalism? Anarchy? Communism? Islam? They haven’t exactly showered themselves in glory now have they?

    • Harryagain

      Drivel.
      Socialism always fails everywhere implemented.
      Only the brain dead embrace it.

      • Jonah Varlik

        Brain dead: Mandela, Mbeki, Zuma, Mugabe (and the rest of Africa except Botswana). Oh, and the caddy / coffee boy occupying the White House.

    • Sandra Barwick

      What is wrong with communism? Pol Pot, Stalin, Mao, around 90 million dead due to it in the last century .. oh, and Mugabe. Other than that, it’s great.

      • Daidragon

        Mugabe’s people seem to like him more than they like colonial white farmers. So communism is working for them.

        • Jonah Varlik

          The have to pretend. Or die.

      • Daidragon

        These arguments are so meaningless. History is full of countless millions killed in the name of every ideology or religion you can think of.

      • mrfixit123

        none of the above you mentioned practiced communism, they were dictatorships

    • Howard Roark

      Blacks have offered no advancement to the world – whites have. The airplane, spacecraft to Mars and beyond, electric lighting, advanced medicine, automobiles, even the computer YOU posted your ignorant remark on, all were invented by whites. Compared to blacks, we are gods. That’s is why a world without your kind would be a better place.

    • Jonah Varlik

      It’s gone down a treat in Zim, hasn’t it?

    • Monique Bailey

      It is NO coincidence that Apartheid was observed in Palestine! The same Anglo Zionist colonizers that funded Apartheid in South Africa, funded the development of Israel! Cecil John Rhodes and Ernest Oppenheimer exploited cheap black labor for their diamond and gold mines (De Beers, Anglo American). Google Harry Oppenheimer Museum in Tel Aviv. The Oppenheimers, related to the Rothschilds, funded the Apartheid Engine and, unbelievably ambiguous, funded COMMUNIST Mandela. Apartheid placed too much embarrassing focus on their activities. That is why Mandela never fulfilled his mandate of nationalizing the mines as he was mandated to do by the people who voted for him. South African diamonds, gold funded the development of Israel, who had major arms deals with South Africa during global sanctions. South Africa was manufacturing Israeli designed weapons during Apartheid and assisted Israel with testing NUCLEAR weapons in the Indian Ocean. Google the VELA incident! Apartheid is a controlling, liberty destroying, divide and conquer strategy of the the Rothschilds, who control Britain. Britain is communist. Soviet Union was their ally in WW2. Let us not forget who facilitated the creation of Apartheid Israel, communist Britain!

      • mrfixit123

        what kind of drugs are you taking, nice lunacy rambling lol

        • anna miller

          For those who get their information from the TV, and or propagandized media, what she says would appear as lunacy. But once you learn the truth, those still in a sleeping state, appear as the walking dead, mind-controlled zombies, acting out on their programming, which is solidly fixed into place. One can usually spot them in comment sections, because the love to insult fellow commenters with whom they disagree or do not understand the content. They are often too lazy to do their own research and prefer to be spoon-fed information from mainstream outlets.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            Yes, you’re easy to spot.

      • anna miller

        Apparently there are those in the know. Thank-you!

    • mrfixit123

      most asians in the usa would disagree with you they are profiting and succeeding just fine

    • anna miller

      Both the communist revolution in Russia and China, were evil, murderous rampages of extreme violence against innocent people. Both countries then underwent a complete loss of any civil rights. The masses lived in extreme poverty and were told where they could work, and where they could live. They were not allowed to leave. The reason capitalism is in such failing conditions, is because the US and West in general has been taken over by extremely greedy psychopaths, who have bought off the politicians. The media is now controlled in US by only 6 corporations, so mainstream media is propagands. And despite this, Blacks in the US have a higher standard of living than most other nations in the world. Obama would not have been elected without White votes. Please research the role of Jews in both communist revolutions.
      Why do you think the truth remains hidden?
      http://www.finalcall.com/artman/publish/Perspectives_1/article_6901.shtml
      http://www.gilad.co.uk/writings/2016/3/14/2neb5vgeud4n3blrdgvt7yu374tdk3

  • Hagen vanTronje

    Nobody ever mentions the dead South Africans both black and white skinned who were killed by the Terrorist Mandela ! and nobody bothers to mention that Mandela was sentenced to death but a benevolend Afrikaaner government commuted the sentence to life imprisonment.
    Worst mistake they ever made !!

    • RuariJM

      Why don’t you name and number them? The ones he killed with his own hands, in particular.

      Off you go…

      • Hagen vanTronje

        Nobody said he killed them with his bare hands, he killed them with bombs he planted, the Cowards way of Killing.

        • RuariJM

          I didn’t say “bare hands”, I said “with his own hands”. Would “by his hand” be clearer?

          Anyway, identify the incidents he was involved with – specifically – and the casualties. Numbers will do, I won’t insist on names.

          If bombs are the “coward’s way”, as you maintain, how would you rank shooting at unarmed crowds, shooting from inside armoured cars, beating to death in custody, torture, etc? Please don’t say heroic nobility, because no-one will believe you. Not even your own allies.

          • Hagen vanTronje

            “”Anyway, identify the incidents he was involved with””

            It’s quite easy to find out what Mandela did, just read the transcripts of his trial.

          • RuariJM

            Well, Hagen, why don’t you read the transcripts and list here the incidents?

            It should make a pretty cast iron case for you if you do.

          • anna miller

            As a first time visitor to this site, and reading through the comments, I have arrived at the conclusion that you are either a troll or extremely childish.
            probably both.

        • Jonah Varlik

          Don’t worry, I think the gate is loose at his kindergarten

      • Jonah Varlik

        He ordered the murder, using illegal AK 47’s in the hands of Cuban and Serbian mercenaries to murder 93 unarmed Zulus in Library Square. Over 300 000 Zulus were murdered by the ANC death squads 1990 – 1995.

        • RuariJM

          You will gave to be more specific. I cannot find any links to these incidents, so if you would be so kind as to provide some…?

          (Assuming they exist)

          • Jonah Varlik

            I was there. Look up the newspaper files for those years. Look up the Library Gardens massacre, when your hero admitted he gave orders to his mercenaries: “You must kill all these pipple” (sorry, people_

          • RuariJM

            Is there a cmprehnsion problem? “I cannot find any links to these incidents, if you would be so kind as to provide some…?”

            You were there, you say. It shouldn’t be a problem in you finding them, then.

            Over to you.

          • anna miller

            It is too bad you are more interested in proving you are right, then doing your own research into this topic. However, you must be willing to move beyond the mainstream, corporate narrative of history.

            The hero of the anti-apartheid struggle was not the saint we want him to be.

            The image of Nelson Mandela as a selfless, humble, freedom fighter
            turned cheerful, kindly old man, is well established in the West. If
            there is any international leader on whom we can universally heap praise
            it is surely he. But get past the halo we’ve placed on him without his
            permission, and Nelson Mandela had more than a few flaws which deserve
            attention.

            He signed off on the deaths of innocent people, lots of them

            Nelson Mandela was the head of UmKhonto we Sizwe, (MK), the terrorist
            wing of the ANC and South African Communist Party. At his trial, he had
            pleaded guilty to 156 acts of public violence including mobilising
            terrorist bombing campaigns, which planted bombs in public places,
            including the Johannesburg railway station. Many innocent people,
            including women and children, were killed by Nelson Mandela’s MK
            terrorists. Here are some highlights:

            http://thebackbencher.co.uk/3-things-you-didnt-want-to-know-about-nelson-mandela/

          • RuariJM

            “… then [sic] doing your own research into this topic…”

            It is incumbent upon those making unusual, outlandish or contentious claims to provide supporting evidence, not others.

            I indicated that I had done some when I said that I had looked for reports and hadn’t been able to find any. that’s why I asked for links.

            If they exist, they might have been useful additions to the body of information that I have built up over the past 40-odd years.

          • anna miller

            I just linked at least one for you. Did you take the time to read it? Your state of mind is quite common amongst the populace. You have swallowed the propaganda from mainstream media, regarding world events. Don’t feel bad, we have all been socially programmed. It is the ego which prevents us from going beyond programming. The more calcified our programming, the harder it is to admit we were duped. The body of information that you have built up over 40 years, long before the internet arrived, which has allowed a much more free exchange of true information and genuine investigative journalism to flourish, (why do you think the “elite” want to pass laws controlling the internet?) was most likely printed by propaganda publishing houses and outlets., dedicated to presenting the false narrative, in order to push forward a particular agenda. If you are not aware of how this works, you are behind the times, and need to awaken.
            One does not have to pull the actual trigger, to cause the murder of many, many humans. That is basic common sense.

      • anna miller

        Well we certainly hear the number “6 million” repeatedly enough. Has anyone ever truly made a genuine number count on that oft-bandied number? Well, perhaps they would if it were not against the law in 14 nations in Europe to do so. ummmm, wonder
        what they might be afraid of finding out in these “numbers”????

        • RuariJM

          What are you talking about?

  • jeffersonian

    ‘There’s no accounting for taste, but one wonders if Barack Obama would have said that if he’d known his hero batted for the opposition during the Cold War.’

    Going by the seven long years of the Obama presidency, I think we can say with a fair amount of certainty that he (BHO) would have quite happily batted for the opposition team.

    Instead, like a Manchurian candidate, he’s been busy destroying from within.

  • Dominic Stockford

    Maybe Mandela’s own unaltered version of events should be made compulsory reading during what is called ‘black history month’ in British schools… It would certainly liven things up a bit. As well as cut it back to a week, then to a day, so the children couldn’t actually have time to read it!

  • SonOfaGun

    He was mentored by communist jews, his ANC have gone on to terrorise the white minority. The whole saga really has nothing to offer the white man except ethnic cleansing.

    • anna miller

      I am glad somebody said it. The Jews were also behind the Bolshevik revolution in Russia, and the Communist revolution in China. In Russia, the official number of those murdered or starved to death is 20 million, but Alexander Solzhenitsyn said the number was 60 million. The Chinese Chairman Mao, mentored by Jews, killed or starved to death, 66 million.

      • RuariJM

        Ah. The unpleasant reality behind the delusional rhetoric is revealed.

        Just another antisemite.

        • anna miller

          Any time anyone legitimately criticizes Israel and or the NeoCons Zionists, banksters and their criminal behavior, one is instantly labeled “anti-Semite”. This is a social engineering at its most basic level.
          It’s no longer working.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            Ah yes, the “legitimate” hate, blag blah…

            Yes, your far right are causing more violence again, sadly. You’ve dug up an old post to legitimize a bunch of plain Jewhate.

          • anna miller

            Leon, I do not think in terms of right or left, as this is a false paradigm set up by the social engineers to seperate humanity, encourage humans to fight against each other, rather then correctly identify the true culprits who make tremendous amounts of money in the meantime.
            It is truly alarming, that Israel, who is in fact committing an ongoing genocide in Palestine, is not rejected by the Western nations as they did in South Africa. But that is most likely due to the fact that the Jewish power structure, through various means, have managed to overtly and covertly manipulate the systems.
            Your attempts to denigrate my assertions sound childish.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            Ah, so you make excuses for the far right, check.

            As you blame Jews, I see, and make wild Jewhate claims. You’re alarmed that Jews are not persecuted enough, as you blame conspiracy theories about Jews, the same old ones which lead to i.e. The Protocols of the Elders Of Zion.

            You see your hate theories, fanatic, and reject thought about them, whining…

          • anna miller

            Those on the Left (as you describe it), often dismiss Cultural Marxism not by using factual arguments but instead by labeling it a “conspiracy theory”.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            That is the factual argument.

          • anna miller

            I found this web-site by happenstance. It is the Jews in Israel who are murdering children.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            Blame the Jews, all you do…right.

  • Harryagain

    He was just another terrorist.

    • Daidragon

      And Apartheid SA was a violent, fascist state. Any and all form of protest was justified, including violence, against such a regime.

      • Harryagain

        Not as violent as it is now.
        The star of Africa is returning to savagery, corruption and poverty.

        • Daidragon

          The only difference is now the white minority are experiencing the violence as well.

          • Harryagain

            Yes, the savages are in control now.

          • Daidragon

            Poor dab has lost his servants. Nobody cares.

          • Rickety Janes

            So that was the goal all along? Huh. No wonder they had apartheid in place.

          • Jonah Varlik

            Yes, the hundreds of bombs in hamburger joints, railway stations and bars killed no whites at all.

      • Jonah Varlik

        The violence was almost exclusively from the ANC. It still is. One pillar of their policy is “Crime is the continuation of the Struggle by other means”

      • The Patriarchy

        How was it justified? By violent hatred of white people?

        You do write some dim blinkered rubbish, but today you excel yourself.

  • Howard Roark

    One need not read this book to know that Mandela was a communist from the get-go. But the real shame is that white South Africans allowed DeKlerk to sell out their country right from under their feet. Because they did, it’s hard to feel sympathy for all the suffering and murder they’re undergoing. Just as elsewhere in Africa, the weak get culled from the herd. Perhaps if they had read Ward Kendall’s Hold Back This Day (amazon.com/amazon.uk) a novel about the end of the white race, they might have fought back.

  • Jaysonrex

    From day one, South Africa was a basket case. Under the mask of racial equality it revealed over time to be a racist country like none other.
    Mandela was useful for awhile but than it became an inconvenient element that had to be removed. Luckily, nature did the job at the right time.
    As far as being communist or fascist or whatever – this is just un-recycled BS. He was simply a nobody that fate gave him fame and power over his brethren. And then took everything away.

  • Moegsien Ismail

    I see the people with conservative, old fashioned,out-moded and fascist leanings are having a field day over here.

    • RuariJM

      Even I am surprised at the level of delusional idiocy manifested here – and I expected a degree of it!

    • The Patriarchy

      Could you post a link please?

  • Jonah Varlik

    He killed hundreds of thousands of our people

    • Matthew Blott

      Er no he didn’t.

      • Jonah Varlik

        He did. I grew up then. I saw the ANC mobs killing hundreds – on the days the reporters were not invited to the ‘protest’. I saw the bodies. Where were you?

        • Matthew Blott

          You said hundreds of thousands.

          • anna miller

            You really need to do much deeper research on topic than this apologist article.
            South Africa has become a war zone. Once the most prosperous nation on the continent, now S.A. is a nightmare. South Africa remains one of the most violent societies on Earth: Police crime statistics as of 2015
            reported that killings rose by 4.6% – or 782 bodies – in 2014-15, after
            a similar increase last year of 5%. Every day, on average, 49 people
            are killed by others. South Africa is 1.75% the size of Texas. The HIV/AIDS rates are among the highest in the world. Squatter
            communities just keep expanding, and millions of poor blacks have seen
            little or no improvement in their lives due to an extremely corrupt government. The white farmers have been and are being murdered. So now South Africa has to import food.
            Necklacing’ is the appalling method of killing which involves putting a gasoline-filled tire around a victim’s neck and setting it ablaze
            Experts say it is rising in a country where corrupt police are feared more than gangsters. The black South Africans use this method against whites and each other. Not just for political revenge but for accusations of “witchcraft”. The mainstream media refuses to report on this topic and they refuse to disclose

            Mandela’s close ties to communists.

            Instead of forcing immigration of Africans into Europe, Europe needs
            to rescue the white population from SE and return them to their
            homeland.

            Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2239201/Necklace-lynchings-shocked-Africa-Agonising-deaths-students-mistaken-thieves-burned-alive-posted-online.html#ixzz456izlqGa

            Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook
            .
            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cQvm8c5geSs

          • RuariJM

            “South Africa is 1.75% the size of Texas”

            I think you might have confused South Africa with the English county of Rutland. Maybe you should check your geography books again?

            The rate and number of deaths, while unacceptable, is probably worth comparing with those in the USA.

            Any claim that South Africa – with all its problems – is the most violent country in the world is wildly inaccurate. I suggest you look at an alphabet of countries around the world, starting with A for Afghanistan, go through S for Syria and don’t forget countries whose names begin with U.

            “Necklacing”? How quaint. Haven’t seen that particular barbarity since the very early 1990s – over a quarter of a century ago. That is not to excuse it, merely to point out that you’re a bit behind the times.

          • anna miller

            I did not state South Africa is the MOST violent countries on Earth, but ONE of the most violent countries on Earth, which is TRUE. And South Africa is 1.75% the size of Texas. It is indeed you yourself, who needs to study geography. But since you prefer accusing others of what is in yourself, I will do the legwork for your lazy intellect.
            http://mapfight.appspot.com/za-vs-texas/south-africa-texas-size-comparison
            Yes, necklacing is a common tactic used by psychopaths in South Africa.
            They fill gasoline in a tire, place it around a victim’s neck, and light it afire.
            This is being done to both blacks and whites.
            You need to take a course in logic. pronto.

          • RuariJM

            Area of Texas: 696,241 km². 1.75% of that is 12,184.22 km²

            Area of South Africa: 1,221,000 km²

          • anna miller

            . And South Africa is 1.75% the size of Texas.
            written late at night and in haste. I was actually looking at a map of Texas placed over the map of South Africa, to gain a sense of size comparison.
            Yes South Africa is almost twice the size of Texas. The web-site admin.

            wrote the statement as thus: South Africa (1,221,037 km²) is 1.75 times as big as Texas (696,241 km²).

            This from the Los Angeles Times: “Crime is a daily horror, with South Africans confronted with constant bare-bones news summaries that make the country at times, almost like a war zone”.

            http://www.latimes.com/world/africa/la-fg-south-africa-murders-crime-statistics-20150929-story.html

            So there is your civil war that never happened.

          • anna miller

            in Munsieville on 13 April 1986, where she endorsed the practice of necklacing
            (burning people alive using tires and gasoline) by saying: “With our
            boxes of matches and our necklaces we shall liberate this country.”
            Your use of the word “quaint” in connection with necklacing is disheartening. Perhaps if you had a necklace placed around your neck and set ablaze, you would not think it so quaint.
            Likewise, if you or someone you loved
            were raped, murdered, or burglerized it would not be so quaint either.
            Necklacing returned to South Africa in 2008 when black South Africans turned against black immigrants
            from the rest of Africa. The influx of immigrants led to violence,
            looting, and murder in some of South Africa’s poorest areas; this
            violence included necklace lynching.

            Again, you misquote my comment. I did not say the “most violent country in the world” I said “one of the most violent countries in the world”.

            Top 10 Countries with Highest Murder Rate in the World 2015

            South Africa is number 9.

            http://www.abcnewspoint.com/top-10-countries-with-highest-murder-rate-in-the-world-2015/

  • Jonah Varlik

    Just by the by, the ANC and IRA used to conduct joint training and operations. That’s why their methods were so similar.

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