Features

Alex Salmond is within striking distance of victory. Why hasn’t England noticed?

We could be seven months away from the end of Britain. It's time to worry

8 February 2014

9:00 AM

8 February 2014

9:00 AM

 Edinburgh

A century ago, with Britain in peril, Lord Kitchener’s stern countenance demanded that every stout-hearted Briton do their bit for King and Country. ‘Your country needs you’ rallied hundreds of thousands to khaki and the Kaiser’s War. Today, with Britain in peril again, you could be forgiven for asking where Kitchener’s successor is. A new recruiting poster might cry: ‘Britons: Wake up! Pay attention! Your country really is at risk!’ The threat, of course, is domestic rather than foreign (for now, at least). It is beginning to be appreciated, even in London, that Alex Salmond might just win his independence referendum in September. The break-up of Britain will have begun, David Cameron will have to contemplate being Prime Minister of a rump country — and HMS Britannia will be sunk, not with a bang but a whimper. It will be due as much to English indifference as Scottish agitation.

The battle for Britain is being conducted on a wavelength which unionist politicians in London struggle to pick up. The nationalists have been preparing for this vote all of their political lives — and know that it is a fight like no other. The unionists seem rather worse prepared. Like hockey players sent on to play a game of rugby, they have a rough idea of the game — but many, especially those based in London, don’t properly understand its rules. The unionists can babble on about the Barnett formula and a hundred other details but, in the end, these are mere details. Salmond’s nationalists offer a tryst with destiny. And the future.

It is easy to assume, in England, that Salmond is sunk. After all, aren’t all other major political parties uniting against him? It is less appreciated that the other parties are the same ones Salmond has outmanoeuvred at every turn since 2011, when the SNP first won an absolute majority in the Scottish parliament. As referendum day draws closer, a formerly formidable unionist advantage is being whittled away. Since Salmond published his ‘white paper on independence’, six successive opinion polls have shown a swing towards a ‘yes’ vote. At present, more than 40 per cent of decided voters plan to vote for independence. It does not take a psephologist to work out that Salmond may win.

Alex Salmond Reveals The White Paper For An Independent Scotland

If momentum is with the nationalists, so is organisational muscle. ‘Yes Scotland’ groups have sprung up in almost every small town in the land. Every night, somewhere in Scotland, nationalists meet to plot their strategy — with a morale and determination not to be found among the grassroots of any Westminster party. Last week, for example, the second issue of a nationalist propaganda newspaper — imaginatively called YES — was delivered to thousands of households. Even now, Alistair Darling’s ‘Better Together’ campaign seems quieter than a Stornoway playground on the Sabbath.

Unionists raise procedural, legalistic difficulties such as the precise nature of an independent Scotland’s relationship with the European Union, or how much representation, if any, Salmond should expect on the board of the Bank of England. These concerns, while real, can seem tangential to the greater issues: what kind of Scotland is being fought for? And what kind of Britain, too? Salmond assures Scots that technical difficulties should certainly not be used to bar the march of the nation. Or, as he put it recently, ‘Let’s not wake up on the morning of September 19th and think to ourselves what might have been’..

Real Scots vote ‘yes’; timid Scots vote ‘no’ — and doubtless, in time, will fill a coward’s grave. This might seem a form of emotional blackmail, but it is a mightily effective one.

Radical Independence Conference Gather In Glasgow

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At the same time, Salmond argues that very little will change. The nationalist campaign might be subtitled ‘Project Reassurance’. Nevertheless, despite presenting his case as a question of fiscal accountancy and common sense, the true appeal of independence is still emotional. What kind of country, Salmond and his colleagues will ask, rejects the chance to govern itself? It is a good question. The answer, of course, is a country that rejects as false the choice between two identities. You can be a Highlander, Scottish and British — just as you can be Cornish, English and British. Even so, Salmond articulates a vision of a better, purely Scottish future in ways that no unionist politician has yet matched.

England has spent so long regarding separatist movements as a joke that it struggles to accept how potent the threat is now. Once a voter has crossed the Rubicon to join the nationalist camp, it is devilishly difficult to persuade them to retrace their steps. It is difficult work finding voters who have moved from yes to no — whereas the reverse is more common, and certainly more widely discussed.

Moreover, the unionist campaign has the dysfunctionality that you would expect from a hybrid beast: Tory money for Labour men. This, manifestly, is an alliance of temporary convenience. The Tories, bashful as ever, are reluctant to campaign vigorously for the Union lest their unpopularity in Scotland weaken the overall case for unionism.

Labour are reluctant to be seen within spitting distance of any Tory. Moreover, the unionist alliance allows the SNP to argue that there is no functional difference between the Labour and Conservative parties. Only the SNP will stand up for Scotland’s interests by putting Scotland first.

Indeed, the SNP’s strategy is, in part, based upon creating the impression that Scotland and England have become such vastly different places that it is impossible for them to remain together. They argue that a distinctively ‘social democratic’ Scotland is now hopelessly out of step with — and held back by — a ‘neoliberal’ consensus at Westminster.

The question then becomes not whether Scotland can afford to leave the Union but whether she can afford to stay. In this way, the burden of proof is transferred to unionists. Similarly, nationalists ask unionists to spell out their plans for what happens after a ‘no’ vote. As yet, none has chosen to do so, allowing the SNP to claim this demonstrates that there are no such plans.

Prime Minister David Cameron And Scottish First Minister Alex Salmond Meet To Set Out Independence Referendum Deal

Unionism is further handicapped by David Cameron’s disinclination to play a part in the referendum. I’m told that he caveated his Christmas cards by saying it would only be a ‘happy new year’ with a ‘large No vote’. But he believes that he can best help the ‘no’ cause by steering clear of it — this week, he chose London as the venue for his speech on Scotland. Asked to explain the benefits of independence in a single sentence, Blair Jenkins, the chief of ‘Yes Scotland’, has taken to summarising the essence of the issue as ‘No more Tory governments. Ever.’ The target is swithering Labour voters and the message is powerful because it is simple.

The Prime Minister is not the only hesitant campaigner. Many businesses — much to the irritation of leading unionists — have been reluctant to intervene in the referendum campaign. The chief executive of BP this week urged Britain to stay together, but this was unusual. Other business leaders don’t want to make an enemy of the man who may well be running the whole country. Financiers know that any attempt to question the wisdom of independence is met with accusations of ‘talking Scotland down.’ If only, nationalists sigh, our opponents shared our faith in the Scottish people.

This is another example of how well the SNP have framed the debate. They make it sound like a bureaucratic no-brainer: why shouldn’t the decisions that affect Scotland be taken, wherever possible, in Scotland? It is the same logic that drives Tory Euroscepticism, an irony that will not be lost upon a Prime Minister who is fighting wars in Edinburgh and Brussels.

Salmond is fond of borrowing John Steinbeck’s reply to a letter from Jackie Kennedy in which the novelist wrote, ‘You talked of Scotland as a lost cause and that is not true. Scotland is an unwon cause.’ Salmond has the advantage of knowing what he fights for. Can unionists say the same?

They do have one powerful card to play: Britishness. The SNP do not, in fact, want to talk about losing this identity — at least, not openly. Perhaps because, despite everything, Britishness still has a surprising appeal: Scots cheered Jessica Ennis at the Olympics as a countryman. Andy Murray draped himself in a Union flag at Wimbledon last year. This is still the country of Shakespeare and Burns, Dickens and Scott. What unites us — in culture, politics and temperament — is far greater than anything that divides us. Salmond argues that England should prefer a good neighbour to a ‘surly lodger’, forgetting that many Scots do not think themselves mere lodgers in Britain. It is their home.

In any case, if Britishness were really finished, Salmond would have no need to talk of the ‘social union’ that would survive — and, he says, flourish — after independence. Identity matters, but so does economics. The Scottish Social Attitudes Survey has shown that Scots’ commitment to the Union is provisional and subject to a cost-benefit analysis. They — we — would support independence if it left Scots £500 a year better off and reject it if independence cost £500. Bought and sold for half an ounce of gold, if you will. A depressing thought, but a reminder of why the referendum remains too close to call.

Scottish Referendum 'Better Together' Campaigners On The Streets Of Glasgow

This is an unusual argument, then, in which it is the unionists who stand to benefit from wrapping themselves in the flag and the nationalists who are surprisingly disinclined to do likewise. Salmond also benefits from the fact that most unionists are reluctant to pursue a scorched earth campaign based wholly upon the proposition that Scotland is too weak, too small, too poor to survive as an independent country. Insulting the electorate’s ability to run its own affairs would be a pitiful, demeaning strategy. But this concedes that independence is feasible, and shifts the question to whether it is desirable. ‘We could but shouldn’t’ is a harder case to make than ‘We can’t and mustn’t’.

Salmond is also a formidable late-stage campaigner. Two months before the 2011 Holyrood election, he languished 15 points behind in the polls — but went on to win an outright majority, in a voting system designed so no party would ever win an outright majority. No wonder senior strategists in No. 10 are said to believe Salmond’s victory is not just possible, but likely.

It is not too late to stem the nationalist tide, but time is not on the side of the Union. The length of the campaign itself offers ample time for Scots to become less fearful with the prospect of independence, and once the idea is planted, it grows. Yet, all the while, too many unionists think their case is so self-evident that it doesn’t need to be made with the same passion or verve. They should be afraid — their country may just slip away from beneath their feet.

Alex Massie lives in Edinburgh and blogs at spectator.co.uk/massie


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Show comments
  • Saint Steve

    Poll after poll shows commanding leads for the ‘No’ vote. Has there been a recent poll that I missed?

    • Steve Crawford

      Recent poll shows Yes up 5% No down 5%, Long may it continue to keep going that way, The unequal union is nearer it’s end.

      • Paolo Caldato

        And then presumably, under the wonderful new independent Scottish education system that will be funded by goodness knows what, you will finally learn how to use apostrophes.

        • Gaavster

          Mr Caldato, you say “…funded by goodness knows what….”

          May I draw your attention to the following article which includes a link to that most trusted organ of British journalism, the Financial Times?

          http://wingsoverscotland.com/unleashing-a-firestorm/

          Please feel free to respond as to how we [Scotland] are going to fund it

          In anticipation…..

          • HJ777

            “…that most trusted organ of British journalism, the Financial Times”

            You are being ironic, I take it?

            You mean the FT that had Ed Balls as economic leader writer? The FT that supported New Labour economic policies?

            The FT long since ceased to have much economic credibility.

          • Gaavster

            HJ777 – you missed ‘unwavering proponent and flag waver for Scottish independence’ from your list.

            Do you contest the figures and analysis presented by them?

          • HJ777

            The FT article itself is perfectly balanced and reasonable.

            The “Yes” campaign’s one-sided interpretation is simply ludicrous as anyone with any degree of sense (not you, obviously) can see.

            It simply bases its argument on oil revenue (which is very difficult to forecast as this rather more balanced paper makes clear: http://www.gla.ac.uk/media/media_273150_en.pdf ). Can you confirm to me that you would be against independence were there no oil?

            Can you also confirm that, after secession, you would similarly welcome and accept the verdict of a vote in Shetland about whether they should split from Scotland and take their oil revenue with them)? Can you confirm also that, had the oil been found in English waters, you would not want Scotland to have ever shared the benefits of the revenue therefrom?

          • Gaavster

            Ha ha, 10/10 for trying…

            Quite what influence the Yes campaign has over the editorial and content policy at the Financial Times is way beyond me unless you wish to enlighten me.

            I find your line of questioning a bit strange in relation to oil, Scotland has the oil and lots of it, so why should that even enter into the equation as the hypothesis you offer will never come to pass at this juncture in time

            Let’s look at the financial management of this resource by successive Westminster governments and consider if Scotland has seen a good return instead

            Why are the UK and Iraq unique in the world?

            I’ll answer that one for you, shall I. They are they only 2 states in the world not to invest in a Sovereign wealth fund utilising oil revenues. Its nothing short of criminal.

            To humour you a little, the current GDP of Scotland without oil is 99% of the UK total. This doesn’t factor in the many accounting quirks on the current UK balance sheet which will change post independence.

            I’m sure you are aware that every pound spent/earned/taxed in every supermarket north of the border is credited to the ‘English’ account as they are headquartered there.

            Similarly, I’m sure you are aware tbat, according to the national accounts, England exports more whisky than Scotland according to the fact that this export revenue accrues to the port from where it leaves the UK mainlan

            The union has had it’s day and doesn’t serve any meaningful purpose any more, unless you can point me in the direction of why it should remain in a Scottish context

            Are you trying to argue that Scotland has benefitted in any material way from the discovery of oil in her waters?

            Given the record levels of investment that the North Sea is currently enjoying and that the fact that these revenues will be used to support a population of 5 million people, for many years into the future, I think we’ll be just fine

            I deliberately haven’t mentioned the substantial oil reserves off the West coast, which were discovered in the 70’s and prohibited from extraction by MOD directives.

            http://www.businessforscotland.co.uk/government-confirms-independence-could-generate-west-coast-oil-bonanza/

            As to the Orkney and Shetland chestnut, I’m sure you are aware too that should the islands choose independence from Scotland, for which there is no identified support, under international law they would be be treated as enclaves within the Scottish sector and lose entitlement to their current oil fund arrangements and you may be surprised to know that there would be no oil in the areas to which they would be entitled.

            But please don’t take my word for it…. these are the words of Craig Murray, the Alternate Head of the UK Delegation to the UN Convention on the Law of the Sea, who was number 2 on the UK team that negotiated the UK/Ireland, UK/Denmark (Shetland/Faeroes), UK/Belgium, and Channel Islands/France maritime boundaries, as well as a number of British Dependent Territories boundaries.

          • HJ777

            Life is too short to debunk all your long and boring rubbish.

            But let’s start at the beginning and point out that you start with a false assertion and just carried on from there:

            “Quite what influence the Yes campaign has over the editorial and content policy at the Financial Times is way beyond me unless you wish to enlighten me.”

            Perhaps you can pint me to where I suggested that the “Yes” campaign has any control over the FT? I seem to remember saying that the FT piece was balanced and reasonable – I merely pointed out that the “Yes” campaign interpretation and use of it was ridiculous.

            And you get more ridiculous from there on. I suggest you go to Aberdeen or Shetland and tell people there they haven’t benefitted from oil revenue. I can hear them laughing already.

          • Gaavster

            Erm… that was was my point….

            The Yes campaigns interpretation and that of the FT are one and the same. They both state quite clearly that post independence we will be in a must stronger fiscal position than we currently are…

            Please feel free to debunk the rest of my long and boring post

            I happen to agree with Stewart’s contribution to this thread and to be fair it is worded much more eloquently than mine.

          • HJ777

            If you think the two interpretations are the same, then there is no point trying to engage you in a sensible discussion.

            Any contribution would be more eloquent than yours.

            I note that you ignored this: http://www.gla.ac.uk/media/media_273150_en.pdf

            The “Yes” campaign likes to pretend that there can only be upsides and completely ignores any possible accompanying economic or other downsides. It is hard to engage such people in serious discussions.

            Tell me, what figure has the “Yes” campaign put on the direct transitionary costs of secession? I have never seen their estimates, although there must surely be some otherwise they could be accused of a lack of fiscal planning, surely.

          • Stewart Glendinning

            HJ777 – get a grip man (or woman?) it’s not about oil it’s about self determination. Democracy, Prosperity and Fairness – 3 things that Westminster and the English electorate seem to care very little for these days.

            http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/jan/13/north-sea-oil-money-uk-norwegians-fund

            Try this article in the Guardian. Where has all that oil money gone? Remaining oil reserves (40-50 years worth according to the industry) are the icing on the cake which will allow an iScotland to rebuild our economy whilst creating social and economic prosperity for the many not the few. Or we can vote No and allow Westminster to squander the remaining oil revenues.

            Should Shetland choose to remain part of the rUK it is entitled to do so but a part of rUK and not as stand alone independent state of Shetland international maritime law would mean that almost all the oil would still lie within Scottish territorial waters. But that’s up to the Shetlands to decide and as others have said support for such a move seems to be weak at present.

            To answer your final question – yes if there was no oil I wouldn’t hesitate to vote Yes.

          • HJ777

            Get a grip man.

            Blaming the English for every perceived woe in Scotland is just childish (not to mention racist).

            Oil revenues have never constituted more than 2% of UK GDP and never more than 5% of tax revenue, and even that has required substantial investment (it doesn’t pump itself out of the sea bed). As someone involved peripherally with the oil engineering industry I can inform you that the cost of extraction is rising sharply, so the net benefit is likely to reduce in the future.

          • James Hedman

            “not to mention racist” OMG!!!

            Actually it is an anti-White word that is rapidly losing its negative connotations.

          • Eric McLean

            Nobody blames the English. All my family are in England, many are mixed English / Scottish.

            I think you will find most reasonable Scots blame Westminster.

          • HJ777

            I think most reasonable Scots don’t go around finding problems and apportioning blame.

            Blaming a place would be a pretty stupid thing to do.

          • Eric McLean

            Westminster is an institution. But you know that, don’t you.

          • Derick Tulloch

            Not weak: non-existent unless you count one old fool from Kent whose main contribution has been to repeatedly waste the lifeboatmen’s time

          • Eric McLean

            “To answer your final question – yes if there was no oil I wouldn’t hesitate to vote Yes”

            Indeed, you, me and many many others.

            They don’t like it up em do they Captain Mannering! :)

          • Derick Tulloch

            For the thousandth time. Shetland is an integral part of Scotland. I know, not unconnected to me being a born and bred Sheltie

          • Michele Keighley

            So they won’t get a say in the matter – because [regardless of what they may think being so close to the Nordic nations] they are an ‘integral part of Scotland’

            You mean just like Scotland is an ‘integral part’ of the United Kingdom!! Well that’s working out well!!

          • Derick Tulloch

            Michelle. The United Kingdom is formed by two nations that happen to be joined, by an international treaty, in one state at present. So neither Scotland nor England (incorporating Wales) are ‘integral’ parts of the UK. If Scotland votes for Independence the UK is dissolved and the two component parts go their own ways once we decide how to split the CD collection. Scotland and England and Wales have retained their separate legal and education systems throughout the period of the Union. The Scottish legal system applies in Shetland. The Scottish education system applies in Shetland. The Scottish National Health service applies in Shetland. Shetland is part of Scotland in just the way that Kent is part of England. There is no movement for Shetland Independence. Just Bernard Ingham and Whitehall’s dirty tricks from the 1970s, and one old fool from Kent whose main contribution so far has been to repeatedly put our lifeboatmen’s lives at risk. It’s 14 hours on the ferry to Aberdeen on a good day. If you think we are going to vote for a ferry to Newcastle, and for Sheltand students to pay tuiition fees, and for sick people in Shetland to start paying prescription fees, you can think again. Shetland voted Yes to the re-establishment of the Scottish Parliament in 1997, and will vote Yes to Independence in 2014. Forget Partition, it’s not happening.

          • David Milligan

            LOL Gaavster, you definitely have a wicked wit, don’t you?

            Spot on, I used the archive of the FT article on another reply. Here it is;-

            http://archive.is/vcQ78

            Kindest regards,

            David Milligan Lvss

        • DougDaniel

          If you want to try and claim some sort of intellectual high ground over someone, it tends to work better if you don’t say something stupid yourself in the process, such as highlighting the fact that you apparently don’t realise the Scottish education system is already independent, and always has been.

          • Paolo Caldato

            Learn to read and analyse, moron. I was referring to Scotland becoming independent, not its education system. If that is an indication of the depth of your arguments then it is no wonder that the “yes” campaign will be getting flattened in the referendum.

          • Gaavster

            Less of the platitudes please, it does no one any favours…

            Now, if you would be so kind as to point us all in the direction of the ‘argument’ that you are making…..

          • DougDaniel

            If that’s the case then you’re even less well-placed to criticise someone else’s grammar, because “the wonderful new independent Scottish education system” is a very strange way of phrasing “the wonderful education system in the newly-independent Scotland”.

            And please, you’re accusing someone of having no depth to their arguments when yours was “duuuhhhh, you’ve used an apostrophe when you shouldn’t”? Look up “hypocrite” in the dictionary, moron.

          • Spammo Twatbury

            Um, you said “wonderful new independent Scottish education system”. If you’re going to lecture people on their use of English, probably best to put your words in the right order, sweetie.

    • Atom Heart Mother

      Yes very many the media will not publicise. This isn’t a new phenomenon. They done the exact same thing with the polls in the last 5 nationwide elections. They had the most popular unionist party (Lab) up to and sometimes over 20 points ahead on every one of them, even the 2011 one when the SNP almost gathered more votes than all other parties combined.

      They’ve won 4 out of the last 5 elections under similar poll readings and the one they didn’t win was a UK wide vote (2010) that ended up turning out as an EXACT repeat of the General Election before it (2005). Exact same parties in the exact same seats with almost the exact same voter figures. People cried foul play! Even George Galloway, although no-one really listens to George much in Scotland these days.

      The SNP won the two before it, 2007 & 2009, and the two after it, 2011 & 2012, all under the same polling opinions as you’re seeing now.

      • loftytom

        The mejja will not publicise. Keep the foil lining in you tam o’ shanter.

        • Atom Heart Mother

          It’s naw a ”Tam O’Shanter”, it’s a “See You Jimmy” bunnet, but no foil lining, would need to swipe yours from your bowler hat old bean.

          • loftytom

            Hilarious pal, bunney aye flat cap aye but bowler? Naw
            See you jimmy hats only worn by sad buggers who watch too much “Bravefart”.

    • ChuckieStane

      Steve, over the past 6 months the trends of the polls have been going only one way. Despite a bombardment of scare stories and a united anti-independence media (from the Mail to the Guardian) the No campaign has been in steady decline. As Alex points out, once convinced by the case for indy there are very few going back. Much of the No vote is much softer and rooted in tribal Labour loyalties rather than any rational study of the arguments.

      • Paolo Caldato

        Keep telling yourself that, mate.

        • ChuckieStane

          Paolo, the polling is only moving one way. The psephologists agree. Mr. Massie is a unionist and he is warning the No campaign that their complacency is misplaced.

          • Paolo Caldato

            Point us to some of these polls. Oh no you can’t, as they’re “not being reported”….

          • ChuckieStane

            Although regarded by many indy supporters as being somewhat pro-union, whatscotlandthinks.org will give you a good insight to the latest polls and trends with analysis

          • Paolo Caldato

            Thanks. Have you actually visited the site? Because, if so, you’ll find this poll tracker: http://whatscotlandthinks.org/questions/should-scotland-be-an-independent-country-1#line .
            Hey guess what? It shows that, in February 2013, the “no” vote was 47% and the “yes” vote 32%. In February 2014, the “no” vote is 52% and the “yes” vote is, er, 32%. So you’re absolutely right: the polls are only moving one way. You’re just wrong about the direction.

          • Eric McLean

            He is a unionist masquerading as undecided, aka his recent attendance on Question Time.

      • Eddie

        Oh and the case for an Independent Scotland ruled by King Alec, sans Sterling, sans EU membership, sans British military jobs, sans British civil servant dept jobs, sans BP and oil company investment, sans everything is a rooted in a rational study of the arguments, is it?
        Pure comedy.
        I can only assume your school system up in Scotland has gone to pot so much that no-one can do their maths properly anymore.
        Though a large part of the YES vote is brainwashed youngsters parroting their English-hating socialist teachers eh?

        • DavieC

          Your post is spot on apart from a few minor points. Indy Scotland will have a general election to decide who will lead it, so may or may not be Alec (sic) Salmond. Sterling will be used without doubt. Maybe the argument you refer to is whether or not there is a currency union. EU membership can and will be negotiated in the interim between the referendum and independence in 2016. I would actually be happy enough to simply go for EFTA. No military jobs, apart from obviously the set up of the Scottish Defence Force and given the skewed nature of cuts to the BM in Scotland to date, and the fact that Scottish funding for the forces will be used directly in Scotland, and not ‘for’ Scotland, there will, if anything, be more SDF jobs available.
          The British Civil Service will have a Scottish equivalent, BP and other oil companies are welcome to leave the North Sea. Most other countries nationalise their oil industry, and I’d be happy for that in Scotland, but in fact I can’t see BP simply deciding that they’ve had enough of making huge profits from North Sea oil and leaving. Not the way of business, is it?
          The school system has not gone to pot, it is simply ahead of what the rest of the UK does, through no fault of their own. The system we’ve already replaced is now being picked up for the English education boards. You’re welcome.
          You’re wrong about the Scottish youngsters as well. Basically they are also ill informed, much like yourself, and default to a no stance. After hearing a balanced debate from both sides, this usually results in a strong swing to Yes.
          http://archive.is/c4pTJ
          So that leaves… eh, nothing. Turns out your whole post was garbage. Well done.

    • Paolo Caldato

      I was wondering about this. This article seems somewhat… scaremongery. Perhaps Mr Massie lives in a part of Edinburgh that is a hotbed of nationalism, and has mistakenly extrapolated this to the rest of Scotland.

      • David Milligan

        LOL good try! The only scare stories are coming from Better ToGetHer or UKOK. pfffft.

        Kindest regards,

        David Milligan Lvss

  • chrisdarroch .

    Condescending article.

  • ChuckieStane

    Another thoughtful contribution to the debate from Mr. Massie, perhaps the only unionist commentator that has realised that the more Westminster shouts “Boo” the less scary it gets.

  • cjcjc

    Perhaps England has noticed and isn’t too worried.
    Why should we be?

    • rustybear

      We should worry only because we need to make sure that we have a team in place to fight our cause against the Independent Scots. The danger being we roll over just as we have in the Union. This would be totally unacceptable.

    • ChuckieStane

      That is of course a matter for the English, but perhaps you should ask why the UK establishment (Westminster, big business, TV and Press) are united in fighting to maintain the union?
      The answers to that question may include:
      1. The potential loss of Coulport gravely (perhaps fatally) endangers the affordability of the Trident replacement.
      2. The prospect of ceasing to be a nuclear power and the loss of land mass weakens the tenability of the Security Council Seat, as seat that will be likely be taken by India and alter the global power balance
      3. For the Labour it is the fear of losing a sizeable chunk of its powerbase
      4. For Scottish MPs and peers it is simple self-preservation
      5. The negative effect on UK balance of payments and the potential damage to credit ratings
      6. Perhaps the biggest of all: the psychological end of an era and loss of prestige. Britain together achieved more on a world stage than any other comparable nation. Culturally we are still getting over the loss of empire. Scotland is maybe getting over it first. After dozens of flag ceremonies round the world, this time the union flag will be lowered in England. The symbolism is massive.

      • Eddie

        I think you’ll find that the whole world will continue to refer to Britain as England for evermore! Sean Connery is a fine English actor after all, according to most Americans!
        Loss of prestige? I can say that I have never heard anyone in England, in all my life, pine for the empire – in the way many other nations do. England is the least jingoistic and nationalistic nation I know, actually. Scotland is full of racist bigots, in my experience and those who pine for a non-existent past as portrayed in silly fraudulent depictions of history like Braveheart.
        Culturally, historically, linguistically, fiscally, genetically, geographically England, Scotland and Wales are united – as they were a millennium ago. We are better together in all ways too, and Scotland has had a plum deal for decades out of the union too (they remind me of those African countries we send aid to who them criticise and hate us for sending it!)
        And England started using the English flag a great deal from the mid-90s on – so the loss of the union jack would not be such a big deal.

        • ChuckieStane

          Eddie,
          You obviously haven’t seen much of the Better Together campaign to convince Scots to vote no. It concentrates very heavily on the glories of empire, military might and “punching above our weight”.
          The UK has not got over the empire. That we have as yet felt unable to rename the Order of the British Empire with something more fitting tells us much about how the establishment still feels.
          I would agree that England is in general a tolerant country.
          To claim that Scotland is full of racist bigots is utter nonsense.
          Braveheart is an American fantasy adventure directed by an Australian and shot in Ireland. Do you think Four Weddings and a Funeral is the real England???
          There many common links between the people of the UK as there are with Ireland USA, Canada etc. Should we be politcally united with them??
          Genetically I could not care less – do you favour an ethnically pure UK???
          A thousand years ago Scotland, England and Wales were not culturally, historically, fiscally or linguistically united.
          A plum deal? Dying five years younger is just great.
          I welcome the resurgence of the English flag, strange how you started your post by implying England and Britain were the same thing.

          • Eddie

            Oh come off it!
            The OBE, MBE thing is just a hangover – no-one has bothered to change it to anything else!
            Your PERCEPTION is that the English are obsessed with the British Empire. That is not the reality. I have heard Greeks, Turks and others (eg Muslims) say they want to get back their Empire – most Brits and esp the English realise we are better off without it! I have never – not once – heard anyone English want the Empire back.

            And actually, whenever I heard TV or radio programmes about the British Empire, they are usually presented by Scots desperate to big up the Scots in the Empire, and overplay their role!

            Better Together is just that. Nothing to do with the Empire. It’s to do with a united Britain and how that is better for all – unity is better than division, which one can see from unifications in the 19th century. We do punch above our weight as Britain – on the world stage and in influence. The Chinese know that eh?

            SO FUNNY how you now blame the fact Scots eat so badly and drink so much that they die on average five years younger than the English – on the English! PURE COMEDY.
            It’s always someone else’s fault with you lot eh? In that way, you are honorary Muslims or ethnic minorities I suppose, who blame your mugging habits on racism…

          • ChuckieStane

            Eddie,
            Perhaps read my original post again.
            I never said the English were obsessed by the empire. I said “we” (i.e. the UK) are culturally still getting over the empire. I too have never met anyone from the UK wanting a return to empire. It is about how we see ourselves. That the nation chooses to retain Orders of the British Empire is not just poor housekeeping.
            I am not sure whether “the Chinese know that eh?” is sarcastic or not. What the Chinese do know is that the UK is relatively insignifcant on the world stage. They also teach their children about Jardine Matheson’s (Scots) drugs pushing and do not forget.
            Again I made no mention of England when questioning whether lower life expectancy was a plum deal from the union. In your twisted world early death is somehow funny.

          • James Hedman

            You’ll NEVER get over the Empire if you keep letting in hordes of niggers and Pakis from your ex-colonies.

          • Bob Waugh

            Thanks for reminding us what the real legacy of empire was. Apart from the war memorials.

          • James Hedman
          • dmurdo1

            memories of a once great empire all dust, all that’s left is a divided country. Scotland’s choice.. remain dominated by a Nation in terminal decline (you can’t deny that) or ditch the old dog and go it alone.

          • http://cyberunions.org Walton Pantland

            Please keep talking, you’re doing a great job for the Yes campaign.

        • Henry Hooper

          Next years WWI celebrations (..well that’s what Cameron wants) are an opportunity for flag waving imperialistic jingoism that only the Americans and Nazis could match, ditto with anything to do with the royalty, jubilees etc

          • James Hedman

            WTF is there to celebrate about WWI? It was an unmitigated and dysgenic disaster in every possible way.

          • Sarkastracus

            “dysgenic disaster”. A what?

          • James Hedman

            If you don’t like the word disaster then catastrophe will do. It was obvious enough to Churchill who pointed out the inferiority of English troops in WWII compared to those of the Great War. Most of the best and bravest did not survive WWI to breed.

          • Henry Hooper

            you’re not the sharpest knife in the drawer are you mate?….0/10…back to school for you

  • weescamp

    I’m a YES supporter and am intrigued by the “Britishness” thing.

    I’m technically English but have lived & worked in Scotland for thirty something years. The last time I felt British or any pride in being British was when the E Type Jaguar came out and Concorde made its first flight.

    Such has been the decline in those things that made be proud that Jaguar is now Indian owned and we couldn’t build another Concorde if we wanted to although France (our Concorde partner) certainly could. In fact even today it was announced that a Canadian company in competition with the Spanish and Japanese will be building all the Crossrail rolling stock. Britain doesn’t even build trains anymore and please don’t mention nuclear power where we’ve gone from being a world leader to having to do a deal with the French and the communist Chinese..

    You see, there’s no glory now in Britishness because it’s become the byword for economic and social decline. You can keep it.

    • Eddie

      Racist!

      Britishness is inclusive in a way perhaps Englishness and Scottishness and Welshness are not, for a start.

      Moreover, England and Scotland have been connected not just for 400 years but for 1000 or more. Ever heard of Athelstan?

      • David Milligan

        Wow, talk about misinformed eh? I don’t know where to start with you.

        FACTS
        1. British is an assumed label that people can choose whether or not to use, I personally don’t but that’s my choice.

        2. What does “Athelstan” an ancient King have to do with anything today? The Treaty of Union is just over 300 years old.

        3. Scotland was forced into an unequal marriage for a start and the people of Scotland rioted at the time so much that the land owners who were being bribed into the treaty did it in secret. As far as the economic successes of London are concerned – or Scotland’s for that matter, I suggest you refer to an article in the Financial Times where the exact opposite seems to be the case. Here is an archived copy of the article in case you think I’m leading you a line..,,,,

        http://archive.is/vcQ78

        4. Scottish independence isn’t about one man or one party for that matter and many party’s now support it. Even Labour have a breakaway group call Labour for independence which is doing rather nicely. As to the rest of your point, I’ll take that as some kind of insult and remind you that Scotland is bringing in a minimum price for alcohol unlike that of Westminster (too many vested interests to look out for).

        5. Sterling belongs to everyone on these islands and is a fully tradeable currency worldwide. It is not yours to take away and we will use it after independence. The real rub here is that Scotland is an exporting nation (after independence we’ll be in the top 35 exporters worldwide according to the Financial Times) and England is an importing nation. If Scotland sets up its own currency which would be easy to do (we already have different banknotes) the balance of payments for the rest of the UK would become very unstable and to correct it, Sterling would have to go through a series of devaluations which would cause enormous inflation and deep structural damage to the economy. We definitely don’t want an economic basket case next door and in keeping with our wish to keep trade flowing both ways after independence, we’ll agree on a currency union. Don’t believe all the silly politicking that you read or hear at the moment, I assure you that will disappear as soon as a yes vote is returned.

        6. As to the bank thing, we are and have been paying more than our fair share towards that debt, it’s called the national debt and according to everybody in economics around the world, the bailouts were applied in the areas where the banks were operating. That’s why the biggest bailout was made to Barclays by the United States. Check this one out, it wasn’t made into common knowledge. It was easier to vilify the Scots wasn’t it? Our end of the debt will be around £120 Billion. We’re happy to take that. It is perhaps more pertinent to ask why the banks were bailed out in the first place? Iceland didn’t and they are now in a very favourable place economically – we aren’t, are we?

        7. I was saddened to see the phrase “subsidy junkies” splashed across every red top in Britain. The story was that Scotland got approximately £1600 more for every man, woman and child than the rest of the UK. That did hurt, I’ll admit that. The truth is that we contribute £824 more than anyone else in the UK. How did we find that out? Simple, we used UK treasury figures. After that bit of news became apparent, not one column inch on one of the red tops gave a simple apology to the Scottish people.

        All we ask for is a bit of common respect, is that too much to ask?

        Kindest regards,

        David Milligan Lvss

        • Eddie

          You seem not to know your history.
          Athelstan united England but was also called King of all Britons. Some rebelled – northern English and Scots, yet they were crushed, and accepted his rule. This was really when England and Scotland were united:

          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Brunanburh

          Scots love to pretend that before 300 years ago they had nothing to do with England. Utter nonsense.

          The crowns were united over 400 years ago, and as I said, the Scots deferred to the English king a millennium ago.

          Culturally, linguistically, genetically the Scots and England are from the same stock, no matter what racist fantasies gurning King Alec has – the same opportunist who wanted to be part of a union with Iceland not long before it went bust eh!

          • Harry Scott

            All of humanity is “from the same stock”. Pretending that human beings should loyal to a country or system based on race, heritage or ethnicity is a real racist fantasy which has done the world much harm. Yes is not about race, ethnicity or history. It is about politics and economics. Scotland is a distinct political and economic area which is best served by having democratic control over it’s own affairs. That is all. It will still be British, it will still be civilised and cosmopolitan, it will still be democratic and it will still be prosperous.

          • James Hedman

            Nonsense. The entire concept of nationhood is based on ethnic similarity.

          • Jambo25

            No it’s not. It may be in some Fascist fantasy but most modern nations adhere to common concepts of culture and identity, not ethnicity.

          • James Hedman

            What a bunch of Marxist balderdash. Who are you? Little black Jambo number 25? LOL! Culture and identity are based on kith and kin and not on some ridiculous and impermanent political proposition. Look what’s happening in Europe. The streets are running with rivers of blood thanks to the Muslim invasion and it’s only going to get worse.

          • Jambo25

            “Little Black Jambo number 25”. Goodbye.

          • Kennybhoy

            F*****g wretch!

          • Gregory Mason

            Is there really a need for such horrid language? I’m all for condemning political correctness but there is no need to be vulgar.

          • James Hedman

            In the genocidal race war against Whites strong language should be the least of our responses.

          • Wessex Man

            You really really are as thick as two short planks arn’t you.

          • James Hedman

            If you had any gumption you wouldn’t be letting in thousands upon thousands of wogs from the ex-colonies. Your grandchildren will be speaking Arabic and bowing down to Mecca three times a day (unless they are girls, in which case they’ll be sold into white slavery in some harem.) Of course you might get lucky and have they will all be a bunch of mulatto hip-hoppers with bones through their noses.

          • Wessex Man

            please see my previous post you halfwit!

          • Barry Scarfe

            Tell that to the Japs and South Koreans then. They base their immigration laws on ethnicity and cultural similarity as does the Jewish state of Israel yet nobody calls them ‘racist’. It is only European countries that are denounced if they display the same kind of attitudes that are prevalent in these countries.

          • Randy McDonald

            I can’t speak for Japan, but in recent years South Korea has been liberalizing its immigration laws significantly. Ethnic Korean immigrants from China, Southeast Asian and Chinese wives, others altogether–everyone’s coming in.

          • Chris Morriss

            Oh, I don’t know. If anything the state of Israel pretty much defines ‘racism’.

          • Barry Scarfe

            It’s a state that is specifically based-upon ethnicity ie if you want to settle there you had better be a Jew or they they won’t allow you to emigrate there. They would call that patriotism and Jewish self-awareness ect whilst if a white country wanted to do the same it would be castigated for ‘racism’ so why the double standards?

          • Bob Waugh

            If “nobody” (you know) refers to Japanese and Korean immigration laws as racist, or regards the treatment of Palestinian Arabs by Israel as racist, then you need to widen your social circle. Get out more often.

          • Barry Scarfe

            I’m not talking about how Israel treats the Palestinians, I’m referring to the way Israeli government ministers specifically state that Israel is a, “Jewish state for the Jewish people” and they have very strict immigration laws to ensure that remains the case. I, as a gentile Briton could NEVER be able to immigrate to Israel and the reason they would ban me would be simply down to the fact I am a gentile and not Jewish ie my ethnicity would be ‘wrong’ in their eyes. Now, if white country like Germany for instance stated it wouldn’t allow black immigration because it was a white country and wanted to stay that way Germany would be denounced yet Israel wouldn’t be even though it is effectively saying the same thing.

          • James Hedman

            I call them racist and bloody well good for them too. The Japs and Han Chinese (all one billion of them) are the most racist folks on the planet and they both shun niggers like the plague.

          • Jambo25

            I think you’re are a bit out of date on the Japanese but that is not the point anyway. The key to nationhood is culture not ethnicity.

          • Gregory Mason

            Culture is the same as ethnicity. Get a dictionary.

          • Jambo25

            Except that the way people use the term ‘ethnicity’ on here definitely evokes biology rather than culture.

          • Gregory Mason

            You know that ethnicity means culture? Not race. So you actually agree with James’ point.

          • Jambo25

            Clearly, I don’t.

          • stew

            Tell that to the Irish!

          • soupie campbell

            irish go home to king edwards and scallions

          • stew

            Tell that to the Irish!

          • dmurdo1

            I’m Asian/Irish and I’ll vote yes.

          • terregles2

            I am Scottish Swedish Irish and I’m voting YES.

          • soupie campbell

            you mean you,re a bastard..

          • soupie campbell

            asian/irish ???? you mean you,re an asshole

          • dmurdo1

            obviously pure blood inbred and ignorant….and not very intelligent.

          • soupie campbell

            You my friend are the bastard half breed who claims to be asian irish???, if true then keep your mouth out of scotlands business and stop being a wee troll internet warrior and show yourself you sad excuse for a man

          • dmurdo1

            I have lived in Scotland for 10 years, I’m entitled to vote whereas your not whitebread.

          • James Hedman

            Maggie Q is Asian-Irish!

          • Wessex Man

            you mean you are half-witted you mean you?

          • James Hedman

            In point of fact the Gaelic Scotii tribe invaded “Scotland” from Ireland around the same time the Angles, Saxons, and Jutes did after the fall of Rome.

          • Jambo25

            Actually a confederation of Celtic and Norse states fought against the expansionism of the Anglo-Saxon state under Athelstan. They lost but repudiated any agreements they made with him as quickly as possible. It wasn’t an example of Pan British cooperation but various Celtic and Norse powers fighting off Anglo-Saxon imperialism.

          • James Hedman

            It was the Anglo-Saxons that fought off Norse imperialism as they got there first. Go back to school you ignoramus.

          • Kennybhoy

            Indeed.

          • Sarkastracus

            “It was the Anglo-Saxons that fought off Norse imperialism”. Eh??

          • James Hedman

            “Eh?” The Norseman invaded England during the 9th Century. A hundred years later the entire west of England was under what was called the Danelaw. You Canadians should be taught that in school.

          • Jambo25

            Where did the Anglo-Saxons come from?

          • James Hedman
          • Kennybhoy

            Do me a favour and take back that up vote ya reptile!

          • Jambo25

            Oh good a resort resort to personal abuse. Carry on.

          • James Hedman

            Calling a spade a spade is not abuse.

          • Jambo25

            Is that why you called me “Little Black Jambo” above?

          • James Hedman

            I thought you were leaving. Don’t let me stop you.

          • Kennybhoy

            We have another Michael Wood fan! This yin obviously mair a fan of ‘Armes Prydein Vawr’! :-)

            The Norse “fighting off Anglo-Saxon imperialism?” That’s an interesting interpretation! rotflmfao

            Jesus wept it’s like watching kittens with a ball of wool!

          • Jambo25

            OK let’s call it Anglo-Saxon expansionism or attempts at hegemony. It sure as hell wasn’t some form of early British union or co-operation as Eddie seemed to be suggesting.

          • James Hedman

            Athelstan might have won a battle but that’s about it. Everyone went back to the same kingdoms as before. It was the Normans who unified England. The Scots and English are most decidedly not of the same stock as both recorded history and DNA attest to.

          • Jambo25

            DNA attests to nothing of the sort.

          • James Hedman

            It most certainly does. There is a distinct cline of Y-chromosome haplogroup R1b (attesting to Celtic inheritance) going roughly from east to west and from 40% in Yorkshire to 80% in the Aran Isles.

          • Kennybhoy

            And you call Jambo an ignoramus…? :-)

          • Jambo25

            He also called me “Little Black Jambo” Classy.

        • DrPlokta

          If oil in Scotland’s waters is Scottish, then the Bank of England in London is English, and so is the pound sterling that it controls. Either you want assets like oil and the pound sterling to be divided equally between everyone in the current UK, or you want them divided based on where they happen to be; you can’t have it both ways.

      • DougDaniel

        I like the way you started that comment by declaring the general tone of what was to follow.

        Oh, and if you’re wanting all those monies paid back, we’ll be only too glad to do so in exchange for the many, many billions of revenues from Scottish oil. You might be interested to know that independent analysis has shown that if Scotland had been independent when the oil was discovered, we would currently be many billions in surplus, rather than being billions in debt thanks to the way the UK government has mismanaged the economy.

        (You’re not too thick to realise that, surely?)

        • SimonToo

          And if wishes were horses, beggars would ride.

        • The Laughing Cavalier

          You would have spent the lot and have nothing to show for it.

          • DougDaniel

            You mean like the UK has done?

        • Gregory Mason

          We wouldn’t have had to suffer Blair or Brown so part of me wishes that you had indeed had your independence then because we wouldn’t be in the mess we’re in now either.

          • DougDaniel

            Yes you would, because Labour won the 1997, 2001 and 2005 elections comfortably. Take away the Scottish seats and they would still have won every single one of those elections.

            I said this elsewhere but I’ll say it again: Scottish votes have never turned a Conservative majority into a Labour majority. Labour only win when they win in England too.

          • Gregory Mason

            Both Brown and Blair are Scots.

            Without Blair and Brown’s leadership in particular I am doubtful that they would have won the three elections you speak of.

            In terms of seats though you are right I believe.

          • DougDaniel

            But Blair only lived in Scotland for the first year and a half of his life and his constituency was in Durham, where he spent the vast majority of his life. So unless people born in Scotland were somehow banned from standing as MPs, I don’t see how Scotland being independent would have stopped Blair leading the party.

            As for Brown, his leadership of Labour was so successful that they lost.

          • anncalba

            Blair was educated at Fettes, I believe, the Scottish equivalent of Eton?

          • DougDaniel

            And that would have affected his ability to stand as MP for Sedgefield in 1983 if Scotland had been independent how, exactly?

          • Wessex Man

            Gordon Brown, Malcolm Chisholm, Eric Clarke, Tom Clarke, michael Connarty, Robin Cook, Alistair Darling, donald Dewer, George Foulkes, Sam Gailbraith, Helen Liddell, Michael Martin, John McFall, Henry McLeish, John Reid, Nigel Griffiths, Adam Ingram, Dr Gavin Strang, Brian Wilson and Tony Worthington, who all signed the Scottish Claim of Right and all who served in the 1997/98 Cabinets.

            The lop-sided Cabinets that decided to create a Scottish Parliament, Welsh Assembly and tried to enforce Regional Assemblies upon England.

            The Scottish Claim of Right in case there’s anyone who doesn’t know States that they are strive to put the interests of Scotland above all others.

            All minutes of these Cabinet Meetings are secret and despite The Information Commissioner saying they should be published he has been vetoed twice, You were saying DougDaniel? Of course they affected the governance of the UK!

          • DougDaniel

            Ha ha! Malcolm Chisholm? Malcolm Chisholm is part of the great Scottish mafia, seeking to subvert English democracy?

            “[Malcolm Chisholm] served as a Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Scotland responsible for local government and transport minister for a few months in 1997 but resigned over lone parent benefit cuts.”

            Damn, practically running the government single-handed there! Of course, we’ll ignore the fact that many of those people were working specifically for the Scotland Office (as Chisholm’s title implies), and therefore weren’t deciding main UK policy at all. Did these folk affect the governance of the UK? No. Did they affect the governance of Scotland? Yes.

            Such people were, of course, not needed after devolution, so it would seem the creation of a Scottish Parliament brought your apparent desire for only English MPs being allowed in government a step closer, eh?

            Oh wait, Tom Clarke was minister for film and tourism. Oh well, there’s my argument busted…!

          • Paul Wilson

            Which of course they didn’t.

          • fluffnik

            Brown and Blair call themselves British.

          • CraigStrachan

            I’m pretty sure Labour didn’t win in England in 1964 or the first election in 1974, but still formed the government.

          • Paul Wilson

            Craig you are correct regarding a one of the elections from 1974 the Conservatives received 600000 more votes but Labour picked up more seats which if I remember caused an outcry by the right wing press at the time.

          • Paul Wilson

            Doug there is a detailed analyses of all the election results on the Wings over Scotland site from 1945 until the present on only 3 occasions has the Scottish vote made a difference 1964 from minority Labour to a Conservative majority of 1 in 1974 at the re-election from a Conservative minority to a Conservative majority and the last 2010 election from the coalition to a Conservative majority as you say hardly an endorsement for the claim that without the Scottish vote England would be governed by the Conservative they would be anyway. Vote yes to end this democratic deficit to Scotland .

          • Paul Wilson

            Then Scotland wouldn’t have to have suffered Thatcher, Major and all the many other English prime ministers either.

      • dmurdo1

        its not up to you Mr Garnet….you silly moo.. you know nothing of this thats evident. I’m English and live in Scotland and ‘ll vote YES, Like the Canadian Boss of BOE said its up to Westminster and The Scottish government to negotiate a settlement. Now go away and read the DM there’s an article about gypsies you’d enjoy.

        • Eddie

          Funny how racist, bigoted, chauvinistic, jingoistic Scots Nationalists always call anyone who is AGAINST nationalist and small-mindedness a racist, innit, Mr MacHimmler?

          Buy hey, as you like gypsies so much, how about England sending a couple hundred thousand your way, plus many other immigrants who are causing such problem in London? You have VERY few immigrants and ethnic minorities in Scotland. I think sharing is fair, don’t you? You expect your cake without paying for the ingredients – that’s the problem.

          Re Sterling you are wrong. It is up to the English and Welsh to decide if they want to share Sterling with a bunch of drunken dreamers north of the border. My suspicion is that many in Wales and England will expect a refund for all the subsidy their taxes have given the Scottish over decades.
          Scotland is gonne have one heck of a hangover if it votes YES.
          And what if Salmond were to have a great fall – is there any single other SNP person who who inspire a vote YES. If not, Scots considering voting YES should have a long hard think: you are NOT voting for a man or a political party or ideology at all – but then, the SNP tries to convince you all otherwise. Short term thinkers will vote YES. They will rue the day…

          • http://cyberunions.org Walton Pantland

            “a bunch of drunken dreamers north of the border”

            It’s interesting but disturbing to see the level of anti-Scottish racism on these threads. If that’s really what you think of us, we’re better off without you.

          • Barry Scarfe

            Most English people fully appreciate Scottish inventiveness and brilliance and all you have contributed to the United Kingdom which is a heck of a lot and out of all proportion to your share of the population. I just wish many more of us demonstrated this more regularly but believe me it IS THERE. I personally would be immensely saddened if you decided to leave.

          • Chris Morriss

            And how long do you think your fledgling new state will survive? You can only live on your Walter Scott fantasies for so long you know.

          • James Hedman

            They will survive for quite a while with David Hume to fall back upon. The consummate anti-fantasist.

          • Fergus Pickering

            Why drag Walter Scott into it? He was no nationalist. His great novels are about the dreamers. Have you read Waverley? Have you read Redgauntlet? If you have not then stay silent.

          • HJ777

            He was referring to “Yes” campaigners, not the Scots in general.

            Such people are a small minority of Scots.

          • Pochy

            Aren’t both Scots and English white?

          • fluffnik

            Scots tan to white.

          • Ian Lowe

            And again, with the financial illteracy. You clearly don’t understand that Sterling is a fully convertible globally traded currency. To be blunt, the Westminster government cannot STOP us from continuing to use the Pound, for just so long as it suits us.

          • Randy McDonald

            It may not serve Scotland for very long. If Scotland continued to use the British pound while the United Kingdom refused an independent Scotland any control over the pound (both plausible), sooner or later it would only make sense for Scotland to create a currency under its own control responsive to its economic needs.

          • Ian Lowe

            I agree. I’m actually one of those Yes voters who sees Sterling as simply a convenient starting position whilst we move to a more robust position – whether that’s joining Euro2 and aligning more with France and Germany or our own oil backed currency I don’t really mind.

          • dewisa

            ‘It’s disgusting how we have to put up with all this westminster crap, so were going to abuse it and wreck it for everyone until we have enough to hash something together, whats that, the uk doesnt like that, well tough, weve decided! what, they say we need to take some of the debt weve racked up? no, no no no, i dont think so, i dont want that thanks. just your currency to help our credit rating. maybe your nhs too. and school system. and …….. ‘

          • Fergus Pickering

            You can certainly use it. But you will have no control over it. That will lie with the Bank of England. Of England.

          • James Hedman

            “You have VERY few immigrants and ethnic minorities in Scotland.”

            Surely Glaswegians are a separate ethnic group? After all they speak their own language. LOL

          • soupie campbell

            as snp are jihadists and anti jewish , scotland under them can become new pakistan..

      • Karl Montague

        England and Scotland have been connected longer than that. Every heard of tectonics? The original inhabitants called this Ynys Prytain, or the Island of Britain.

        Of course, in the beginning, everyone was a Briton (Welsh, Cornish, Pictish, Caledonian…) until the Romans. Then everyone south of the old border was Roman-British. With the arrival of the Dal Riada and Scotti up north, and the Anglo-Saxons down South, the original Britons were pushed into Cornwall, Pictland, Breton, and Wales.

        Viking invasions notwithstanding, we have here an island (called Britain), comprising of three very ancient cultures, the Scottish (from Ireland), Welsh (the original Britons, includes the “Welsh Horn”, or “Cornwall”), and English. No amount of political change will stop any one of us being British, if we are from this island, just as no amount of unionisation will stop anyone being Scottish, Welsh, or English if they’re from that PART of this island.

        To be fair, I was born in England, raised in Welsh Wales, and have settled in Scotland. I don’t know which part I’m “from”, but I know I’m British. I’m voting for independence. The only way I could be confused as to my Britishness is if they were to literally divide the two countries (with explosives).

        • Eddie

          Pure fiction. The landmass was not called anything millions of years ago, sonny, so no dinosaurs roamed around England or Scotland. Ever heard of common sense?
          Britain got its name from what the Romans and Greeks called this island and its people – from their tattoos, I believe. The name was not invented in mediaeval manuscripts which refer to Ynys Prytain.
          The populations were NOT pushed out by the Anglo-Saxons – that has been shown to be a myth by DNA evidence. The Anglo-Saxons came and ruled, but people largely stayed put.
          English, Scots, Welsh all have the same British ancestors.
          And right there melts your little Celtic pipe dream eh? You are voting for independence because you are one of these silly twerps who believe in a Utopian socialism north of the border. Your type used to worship the EU, and before that the USSR. Blind faith if what it’s called.

          • Jambo25

            Exactly Eddie. Cultures change. Culture is changing again. The old British identity is dying or dead and being replaced by separate Scottish and probably English identities.

          • James Hedman

            Good! England for the English and Jamaica for the Jamaicans. And Muslims can go straight to hell.

          • christopher mahoney

            Will there be an exchange of populations between England and Scotland, as there was in India? If not, how will the Scots get visas to visit England?

          • http://www.dhs.gov/how-do-i/report-suspicious-activity James Hedman

            By raising their pikes and buckling on their swords!

          • Randy McDonald

            “English, Scots, Welsh all have the same British ancestors.
            And right there melts your little Celtic pipe dream eh?”

            Do English speak a Celtic language, or have spoken?

          • James Hedman

            Before the Anglo-Saxon invasions the natives spoke Old Brythonic.

          • Randy McDonald

            Right. Have the English done so in any significant number at any point in the past thousand years?

          • James Hedman

            Yes, Cornish and Welsh are Brythonic derivatives, but what’s your point? I gave you a straightforward answer to your original question.

          • Randy McDonald

            The Welsh are English?

            I was responding to Eddie’s argument that the English are meaningfully Celtic in the same way that the Scots or Welsh are. This is not the case.

          • James Hedman

            Culturally perhaps not but genetically very much so. Full sequence DNA testing of the English population shows it to be about 50% Celtic on average with a distinct east to west increasing frequency of Celtic genes.

            No scientifically educated person today denies that genes have no effect on a person’s behaviour. Thankfully the absurd ideas of cultural Marxism about equality is on the decline among the enlightened and those Whites with a scintilla of common sense.

          • Randy McDonald

            Genes have an effect on behaviour, sure, but how does this at all relate to Scottish independence?

          • James Hedman

            You’re the one who is bringing up the subject of how the English are different from the more explicitly Celtic areas of the British Isles. I am merely trying to show what various factors contribute to this.

          • Randy McDonald

            I was responding to Eddie’s argument that genetic similarities between English, Welsh, and Scottish populations mean that there are apparently no distinctions worthy of causing movements for one people or another to move for independence. One of these distinction is the cultural: at no point in the last millennium have a sizable number of English spoken a Celtic language, with the singular exception of the Cornish who are themselves a marginal case.

            We may have been talking past each other, I fear.

          • Jeffrey Vernon

            Culture, pshaw. It’s all trumped by genes. Which are decisive in behaviour. They must be, or unemployment wouldn’t be an inherited trait. If people in middle England share 50% of their genes with the Irish, they’ll be 50% as likely to eat herrings in oatmeal, oppose abortion and adopt the euro. Otherwise, what’s the point of genes?

          • James Hedman

            “Genes have an effect on behaviour, sure, but how does this at all relate to Scottish independence?”

            Quite frankly I don’t think the plebiscite will pass. Then UKIP will peel off enough votes from the Tories in the next general to ensure a Labour government who will then put the kibosh to both any more serious talk of Scottish independence or leaving the EU.

            All this talk of popular votes on the EU or Scotland is just cynical political pandering by Cameron to keep his minority in Parliament in power.

            BTW, this chat software doesn’t handle threads very well so unless one includes specific quotes to respond to it is hard to know which particular post from a single individual that one is replying to.

          • Randy McDonald

            OK. Oh, Disqus!

          • Jeffrey Vernon

            How does Sykes make this estimate? Does he assume that all the Irish DNA sequences are ‘celtic’ and then find a decreasing frequency as you move east?

            If genes make us unequal and affect our behaviour – then why do inequality and behavioural difference persist in the (relatively homogeneous) population of Britain? You’d expect on average 50% variance in any measurable trait, if genes explained all the effect.

          • James Hedman

            First of all I know of no one who claims that genes explain all effects. Secondly as far as homogeneity is concerned, ethnic populations are extremely “lumpy.” As sociologist Robin Fox has said, “In a population of between three and five hundred people, after six generations or so there are only third cousins or closer to marry. During most of human history, people have lived in small, isolated communities of about that size, and have in fact probably been closer to the genetic equivalent of first cousins, because of their multiple consanguinity. In nineteenth-century rural England, for instance, the radius of the average isolate, or pool of potential spouses, was about five miles, which was the distance a man could comfortably walk twice on his day off, when he went courting- his roaming area by daylight. Parish registers bear this out. Then the bicycle extended the radius to twentyfive miles. This was a big shakeup.”

            While the theoretical average Celtic inheritance of a typical Englishman is 50% everyone knows of regional variation between local populations. Some are richer, some poorer, some smarter, some dumber, some prettier and some quite ugly.

          • Jeffrey Vernon

            Some regional populations are richer, smarter, etc? Because of their genes?

            I can’t reconcile the 50% legacy with the genetic lumpiness of populations. These seem to be two different accounts.

          • James Hedman

            How do you account for the fact that the average sub-Saharan IQ is around 70 or that almost all champion long distant record holders come exclusively from a few East African tribes?

            Celebrate diversity. I do. Here is an exquisite example of Irish-German hybrid vigor:

            http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-V1yDDgeNrjc/URLRudwvgpI/AAAAAAAAAyA/jqh5F3Dc0pI/s1600/Grace+Kelly+Photos+10.jpg

          • Jeffrey Vernon

            How do you account for their average income of only $1300 a year? Genes don’t seem the obvious culprit for low income, low IQ or anything else across a region with 50 different countries and thousands of sub-nations.

            The East African runners train at high altitude – an environmental effect on physiology if ever there was one.

            BAck to your earlier post – I thought you were saying that British regions vary in prosperity because of genetics.

          • James Hedman

            I’m certain it is at least partly responsible. Breeding several generations of dole recipients sure seems to bear that out.

            Sort of the reverse of what Gregory Clark described as causing prosperity in England in A Farewell To Alms.

          • Fergus Pickering

            Do you know what an IQ of 70 means/ No. I thought not. Megabollocks, friend.

          • James Hedman

            It means people like you have trouble even getting dressed in the morning.

          • Fergus Pickering

            But now they know better

      • hatfinch

        Nice troll, but you made it a bit obvious in your final paragraph there, with three overblown canards in as many sentences.

      • Kennybhoy

        “Britishness is inclusive in a way perhaps Englishness and Scottishness and Welshness are not, for a start.”

        Indeed. Wholeheartedly agree. But I took you for an English nationalist Maister E…?

        Athelstan?

        “To a French chronicler he was an English Charlemagne. His nicknames in Scandinavia were The Faithstrong and The Victorious. To the Irish he was The Pillar of the West. To the Welsh, a King of Kings.To the Scots…simply The Bastard.”

        I take it you enjoyed Michael Wood’s “King Alfred and the Anglo-Saxons” then? lol

      • James Hedman

        “Racist!” OMG!!!

        In reality, it is a word that is rapidly losing its negative connotations. One wearies of anti-White Marxist propaganda.

      • Liberty

        Yes they are, on average. They keep returning Labour MPs and that is really stupid.

      • dafydd53

        You certainly do not speak for this Welshman! I hope Scotland does vote for independence because without any doubt they will become the Country they deserve to be. A country with pride and compassion that believes in fairness and decency in a way that is becoming ever more rare in a neo-liberal Britain where greed and corruption run roughshod over ordinary peoples hopes,dreams and aspirations. I would be delighted to share the pound with an Independent Scotland for as long as they wish after all it is as much their currency as it is Wales,Northern Ireland or England’s.

        Lets be honest with people like you on the unionist side it’s little wonder that the polls are moving further towards a yes vote. Be brave Scotland take your destiny in your hands and create the successful, rich, egalitarian society you deserve. The two main Unionist parties are two sides of the same coin, both delivering differing degrees of conservatism. You deserve better on both a economic and cultural basis so vote yes and take your place with the many other successful small Countries of the World!

        I

        • soupie campbell

          scotland independant will collapse into anarchy, salmond an co will probably hang from george square by the feet as did mussolini..

          • dafydd53

            The more I see of the no campaign supporters the more I realise how sparse rational argument is amongst their ranks. Is it any wonder that the Yes campaign is picking up the momentum. I am sure as time passes the fear tactics and pure fiction of the “No to Freedom” campaign will become ever more clear and rejected as such.

          • Wessex Man

            erm, if they do vote for independence the people who voted no will still be Scottish and stil live in Scotland.

          • dafydd53

            Yes and will benefit from Independence just as those who voted no in the devolution vote benefit from being protected from some of the worse excesses of the Neo Liberal Westminster government. Independence will provide greater ability for the Scottish people of whatever view or ethnicity to govern themselves in the way they see fit.

            The Scottish people can craft their society to reflect their hopes, dreams and aspirations rather than the alien impositions of Westminster.

          • Kalooni

            Direct me to the fiction or accept the falsehood of your comment.

          • Britnot

            Lets take the Unionist mantra “Better Together”. For forty years the South East of England government has wasted the revenue from Scotlands oil. Compare that with how Norway has invested their funds and then try and argue that Scotland have been “better off together”.

          • Kalooni

            Unqualified rubbish.

          • Britnot

            None so Blind…..

      • gazza fae london

        if we are such a drain let us go ….byeeee

      • soupie campbell

        nationalists are responsible for the world wars through time, are evil and have turned scotland into a police state, salmond strutting about like a nazi, with hobgoblin sturgeon in tow, these scum do not represent the true scottish people, they must be shunned and kicked out of the political arena after september…

      • Paul Wilson

        Who is the racist now? It isn’t England’s pound and Wales is more likely to side with Scotland than England. Your attitude is the kind that is pushing Scots into the independence camp but you are too full of loathing to see it. As for banks getting bailed out it was Barclay’s who received the most over 800 billions worth. Give one piece of evidence for your ludicrous claim that Alex is a Stalinist are you right in the head? I suggest you do some research into who is piggy backing economic success from who here’s a clue starts with the letter L even the rest of England is getting the life sucked out of it because of L If you are going to post please ensure you can back up your rant with evidence. There is no such thing as Britishness Thatcher sold it off.

        • Kalooni

          You’re absolutely right!

          It’s not England’s pound at all…. it’s the United Kingdom’s!

          And guess what, if Scotland vote to leave the United Kingdom then they vote to leave the United Kingdom’s currency as well.

          Super simple stuff :)

      • disqus_E799Vnu5KU

        British banks needed a trillion dollars from the US and billions from other countries in bailout money. London piggybacks on the rest of the UK and London brought the banking crisis.The UK piggybacks on Scotland, civil servant reports in Westminster already show that. The Irish, australian, canadians etc all used the pound after becoming independant and there was no way to stop them. We will pay our share of the debts if they let us have our share of the assests. The UK also took £34 million pounds a day since about 1970 from us by squandering oil revenues we also pay £2.6 billion more into the UK than we receive.

      • disqus_E799Vnu5KU

        British banks needed a trillion dollars from the US and billions from other countries in bailout money. London piggybacks on the rest of the UK and London brought the banking crisis.The UK piggybacks on Scotland, civil servant reports in Westminster already show that. The Irish, australian, canadians etc all used the pound after becoming independant and there was no way to stop them. We will pay our share of the debts if they let us have our share of the assests. The UK also took £34 million pounds a day since about 1970 from us by squandering oil revenues we also pay £2.6 billion more into the UK than we receive.

      • iain

        ^^^ Delusional and condesending. Refer to the GERS reports , McCrone report you are that blinkered you believe all that trype they spout. Ask yourself one question….why oh why are rUK i.e Westminster so desperate to keep a country by your very(mis) guided understanding is a financial drain.I would suggets your IQ is in single figures

      • Neil Grant

        They have been robbing us for hundreds of years,you created an Empire by murdering and stealing, and once you got every thing you left those countries . Scotland is not your country or it’s oil or it’s other wealth,it’s ours.I know you have now ran out of countries to rob and steal from so, keep your corrupt, facist, Westminster government to yourselves,we will look after ourselves , no problem, by the way Alex Salmon is twice the man cameron will ever be.

        • Kalooni

          You are literally too stupid to insult.

      • Jeanne Tomlin

        “If the Scots are drunk and/or quixotic enough to vote for independence…” And you have the nerve to accuse other people of being racist.

      • BILLYCAN

        Salmond is like Stalin. Already people who would vote no are being told that they are traitors to Scotland. If Salmond wins, or not, the country will be run on grudge and prejudice. Non believers will be told to like it or lump it, by President Salmond and his rabble. Makes you weep ….

      • Greig Craig

        You do struggle with facts Sir!
        400 years? 314 to be exact.
        Trillions to RBS. Try about 50 billion. 95% which was racked up in the London casino banking circuit. Bank debts are territorial, thats why the Americans bailed out RBS owned Citizens for billions. Ever heard of Barclays, Northern Rock and others, can we have our money back for those?
        Athelstan? Scotland was a single kingdom when England was home to six.
        Piggy back on the empire. You bribed the belligerents to vote for Union after helping to scupper thier attempt at setting up a trading colony in the Americas. The aristocrats and titled gentry who subscribed to the venture sold their country to cover their losses. Scotlands itself was still a relatively wealthy nation at te time as the burghs had not subscribed to the venture.
        Alex the Dictator? We are not voting for one man, we are voting for an ideal, We are voting to take our country back and return it to the people.
        Famous faces? Is that the extent of your democracy?we do not worship idols, maybe you should elect David Beckham as your next PM.
        Alcohol hangovers and drink. So stereotypical,
        Sterling? Its not yours to decide what happens to it, it belongs to the whole UK, but for what its worth I woudn’t want to be in a currency union with a country heading for 2 trillion in debt and about to lose more than one tenth of its GDP year on year.
        Subsidy junky beggars scots. Oh come on, even your own most vehement anti scottish english ploiticians now admit the opposite is the case.

    • Dougie

      The reason we cannot build our own nuclear power stations is because Labour was too afraid of the green lobby to commission, or even plan for, any new stations in its 13 years in office. It also sold off Westinghouse to Toshiba.
      So, if you mourn the passing of our nuclear construction capability, why would you back the socialist, anti-nuclear SNP?

      • ChuckieStane

        Scotland is voting in a referendum for indepedence, not an election for the SNP. Future decisions regarding power generation would be made by democratically elected governments of unknown make-up.

        • Jimbo2010

          It won’t be independence without its own currency. Its voting for seperation not independence.

          • Atom Heart Mother

            No, that’s entirely inaccurate. Scotland will be politically independent from Westminster after September except in the dealings our government will have to undertake as part of what’s agreed on a common currency area as I’m sure anyone with an ounce of ”common sense” can see is the most probable outcome out of all the nonsense being splurged by the media on behalf of Westminster.

          • christopher mahoney

            Scotland will be a member of the sterling zone in the same way that Panama and El Salvador are members of the dollar zone: no votes on monetary policy, no lender of last resort, and not included in the statistics.

          • Greig Craig

            Dont bet the house it.

      • terregles2

        Many people who are voting YES will not vote SNP after independence. We are voting on independence not the SNP.

        • HJ777

          Then why is the white paper full of SNP policies that it says it would implement after secession?

          • fluffnik

            The current government is SNP, a new one will be elected in 2016.

          • yarro

            If you have to even ask that…..

          • Greig Craig

            Because the SNP wrote the white paper, these are the policies they envisage implementing should they win the referendum and the election 18 months later.

      • CortUK

        Selling one of the world’s biggest and best producers of nuclear reactors was absolutely the right thing to do, at absolutely the right time. The Economist said so. The Economist is always right. The Economist is never wrong.

        Oh look, we need to start building nuclear reactors again. The French have agreed. But they’ll need about £25bn in subsidies first. And now even the Chinese are sniffing future deals.

        Onwards and upwards, Britannia!

    • Jerry Harvey

      England is becoming another Detroit, Chicago, New York and Los Angeles: bunch of decadent, corrupt and dysfunctional bureaucrats/politicians with their grubby hands out. Bankrupt physically, emotionally , intellectually and Spiritually: My how the mighty have falen.

      • James Hedman

        It’s not the politicians per se but the wave upon wave of niggers and spics that they let take over those cities.

      • Bob339

        It has been like this since about 1900.

        • James Hedman

          I’d put the date at 1918.

          • Terry Field

            1945 – after the shock of 1940 – then colonisation by the Yanks.
            No surnames, just bl**dy Critian names – and I DO mean Christian names, not ‘given’ bl**dy names.

      • th43

        “England is… bunch of decadent, corrupt and dysfunctional bureaucrats/politicians with their grubby hands out. Bankrupt physically, emotionally , intellectually and Spiritually”

        Oh dear, here come the knuckledraggers

      • Paul Q Zandrake

        England can either become another Detroit, or it can become another New York (neither scenario is likely, incidentally) but it could not very well become another of both. Those two cities have precious little in common.

        • christopher mahoney

          Boris Johnson is a few cuts above Coleman Young.

      • Joe Fonebone

        Scotland as some never-never land Shangri-La. As if Scotland were some magical Kingdom that exists where negative human traits ceased to exist. Try growing up.

        • Greig Craig

          Its not and we have our falts like anyone else, its just that some, hopefully most think we’d be better sorting them out ourselves. Nothing personal old chap.

    • anncalba

      You have to hand it to the YES supporters, they are well organised; blanket bomb any blog that raises the subject. I’ve never raised the subject with anyone, but a lot of people have told me how foolish they think the whole thing is, never actually had anyone say they are pro. If you keep repeating a lie often enough, people come to believe it, sadly.

    • Bob339

      So, when the going gets tough you fold like a wet newspaper? And you are ‘technically English’? Not in my book mate!

    • HenryWood

      You have kind of nailed it and made all my points for me, i.e. English living in Scotland since about 1970. I kind of laugh at Cameron’s flailing about as he goes on and on, making a mess of every single thing he touches. He kind of reminds me of that last Prime Minister, the Scotch bloke :-)
      Today I *was* glad to see England hammer Scotland at Murrayfield, but in the great scheme of things that will be long forgotten by tomorrow.
      I will use my vote to hope for independence in the slightly silly view of “I wonder just what will eventually happen?”
      You see, *ALL* politicians have let me and my country (England) down so very badly over the past sixty years of my life, that I now *LONG* to see them all stew in the mess they have created.
      I know it is not a responsible attitude but seeing as they have truly f***** me and my kin over more than the past half century, I would simply love to think my vote might even get up their nose in even a very minor way.
      As “weescamp” says, you can stuff your Britishness where the sun don’t shine. I *once* proudly considered myself to be British.
      Now as I approach seventy, “British” has become a dirty word in the eyes of the likes of the BBC and even some Spectator commentators.
      Oh well, I still *KNOW* I am better than those k*nts!

    • Lemmy C

      “Britishness” will still exist. It will have the same status as “Scandinavianness”, if you will – a regional and cultural meta-identity without significant political elements to it.

    • Angus_MacLellan

      When ever you see that name, you know you’ve been “cybernatted.” – all debate is closed down and everything is reduced to name calling and ‘racism’. They’ve have already poisoned the debate in the Scotsman and Herald. NB: As a non-Scot ,he should butt out of the debate.

    • bwims

      And we have the Marxist LibLabCon to thank for it. Good luck with the SNP, though they seem pretty left wing to me.

  • http://www.englishstandard.org/ Wyrdtimes

    In the last census 33m people in England identified as being English only. Why would the English want to maintain this so called “Union” when they themselves are denied recognition, representation, fair funding and decent services by the UK parliament?

    BTW Britishness is not dependent on UKishness. Ex home nations will still be British just not UKish. Bring it on.

    • David Milligan

      Well said and at the last census 62% of the people in Scotland identified themselves as Scottish only. I was shocked when working in England during the last world cup to see that people who were proud of their St George flags were asked by their local councils to take them down. Why?

      I agree with you entirely. What we will have when the Scottish referendum is run and a yes is returned will be the much more powerful “Social Union” where we work together because we want to. Just like most Scotsmen I like English folk either coming up to Scotland to start a new life or just for a visit. We have a whole lot in common you and I and that is being spoiled by a parliament in London who seem to be acting in others interests and definitely not ours.

      I hope that Scottish independence starts a new dialogue within the people of the rest of the UK and leads to root and branch reform of a parliamentary system that is in no one’s favour.

      The real people of England, Ireland and Wales will always be our friends no matter what the constitutional status is. Long live the social union that binds us in friendship and common respect.

      Kindest regards,

      David Milligan Lvss

      • dmurdo1

        well said Sir!

      • terregles2

        Well said David. Politicians will never divide cross border friendships and after Scottish independence hopefully England will prosper and have a more democratic parliament.

        • James Hedman

          If Scotland achieves independence what England will have is a Tory government. And that’s not a party famous for its love of unlimited democracy.

      • James Hedman

        “The real people of England, Ireland and Wales will always be our friends”

        Orangemen perhaps, Fenians less so.

      • Barry Scarfe

        I certainly agree that Westminster needs fundamental reform. We need a fair voting system ie one of the proportional representation systems but we don’t need to separate for that to happen. All that is required is that the British people stop being slaves, get off their knees and DEMAND reform or else.

    • Sunshine Pete™

      Do you imagine that an English identity will be allowed to flourish when Scotland has departed the union? What party leader, and I include Nigel Farage, has dared to ride that dragon? English patriotism is the love that dare not speak its name, and the whole apparatus of central and local government will continue to ensure its suppresion.

      • Ian Lowe

        But isn’t that pretty sickening? what’s wrong with an Englishman being proud of England? flying the St George’s cross and loving his country? I’m a Scot, proud of my nation and my home. The union makes for awkwardness all round.

      • terregles2

        Why on earth should it. English people should be proud of England and all the English achievements. Of course you can fly your flags and celebrate your sporting success etc. Who on earth is going to stop you?. It will be much better when we can get rid of the British label and we can all be what we are Scottish English Irish and Welsh living as friendly neighbours with our own separate governments.
        My English neighbours here in Scotland came to my St Andrews party and we went to the St George party at their house. We should all celebrate our culture and the more parties we can have the better.

        • James Hedman

          So you favor Ulster being returned to Eire?

          • Sarkastracus

            Ulster was part of Eire. It can’t be ‘returned’.

          • James Hedman

            Then at least repatriate the Orangemen to either Scotland or Appalachia.

          • terregles2

            What happens in Ireland is for Irish people to decide. I am Scottish it is none of my business.

  • Project Hope Over Fear

    Alex Massie misses out one extremely important point in this otherwise excellent article – to paraphrase the words attributed to Spartacus “WE SUPPORTERS OF INDEPENDENCE ARE ALL SALMONDS” and that is what is going to win the referendum for YES.

  • Salmondnet

    Why hasn’t England noticed? It has, but mostly it doesn’t care. Far more worrying than Scotland leaving is the absence of anyone with a mandate to negotiate the terms of separation on behalf of the English, which means that Scotland will probably get a ridiculously generous deal at our expense.

    • Lancastrian_Oik

      Exactly.

      I shudder to think what would happen if an independent Scotland were to use sterling.

      • Gaavster

        I’m sure that you have given due consideration to an rUK’s Balance of Payments position in the event of Scottish independence and Scotland then withdrawing from Sterling?

        Haven’t you?

        • Lancastrian_Oik

          Yes I have.

          We will survive quite nicely without Scotland, but I fear for the future of the Scottish people.

          What if you’re told “You can’t use sterling”?

          You won’t be able to join the Euro.

          You won’t be able to join the EU because Spain will use its veto.

          So what would Scotland do then?

          I haven’t seen or heard one sensible suggestion from the “yes” camp as to what they would do in those circumstances.

          • greggf

            “You won’t be able to join the EU because Spain will use its veto.”

            Well paradoxically that fact might become a poster boy for UKIP!

          • Dogzzz

            Scotland votes for independence. Is vetoed from joining the EU. 5 million people who support the tories and UKIP move north, outvote the scottish socialists in their own home and create a real, dynamic far right wing capitalist economy on the EU’s doorstep.

            I like that idea.

          • greggf

            Right on Dog, and I would move there too!

          • CameronB

            “Scotland votes for independence. Is vetoed from joining the EU”

            After contributing to EU budgets and upholding EU law for 40 years (since Britain’s entry into the EEC)?

          • Dogzzz

            Scotland has not contributed to the EU. It has contributed to the UK which has then contributed to the EU. Scotland has no membership of the EU. Scotland has no more contributed directly to the EU than Wales, Cornwall, Greater London or Yorkshire.

            Look at the list of EU member states. Scotland’s name is not on it.

            The UK (comprising Scotland) is the EU member state. Once Scotland leaves the UK it also leaves the EU by definition.

          • Derick Tulloch

            Except we are not talking about ‘leaving’ the UK, we are talkng about dissolving the UK. After your wife divorces you, you are No Longer Married

          • Harry Scott

            There are 18 months between a Yes vote and Independence day so if the Scottish Govt somehow failed to negotiate Sterling and Europe in that time, in theory they could just cancel it all and stay in the UK. That’s not going to happen though, Spain have now stated that they don’t intend to veto scotlands entry to the EU and if Sterling was off the table the UK govt would outright dismiss it, instead of using terms like “unlikely” or playing up on “may involve some loss of Sovereignty” as they are now. In the end they will do what’s in their own best interest, which is plainly to have Scotland in the EU using the pound.

          • Tom M

            You would think that if you were trying to convince the population of Scotland that you were competent and had the makings of a government in waiting that you would have sorted out the minor matter of what currency you would be using.

          • http://cyberunions.org Walton Pantland

            You clearly haven’t been paying attention then. Plenty of people in the Yes camp see sterling and provisional and transitional, and favour a Scottish currency. This will be backed by oil, unlike sterling, which is backed only by blind faith in the City.

            And as the article says (did you read it?), this is not about technical detail.

          • Jambo25

            I would like to see us make a commitment to join the Euro as soon as possible. I am not a great admirer of the £.

          • Chris Morriss

            No I can’t imagine you are.

          • Chris Morriss

            What oil? Have you been along to see how little there’s left recently?

          • Jambo25

            Talk to people in the oil industry. They don’t agree with you.

      • Henry Hooper

        I shudder to think what would happen to the rUK if we don’t have a currency union…the markets aren’t going to like it one bit I few don’t (balance of payments, business costs, Scotlands debt repayments to rUK……etc etc)
        Actually….just wait a few months and Cameron will admit that Yes there will be a currency union, otherwise he or Osbourne would have black & white rejected it…ask why they are reluctant!
        The currency union is another of their scares….what they should have been doing is working with the Bitter Together team with the view to proposing their alternative vision of the union, that is of course if they want to retain the union

        • SimonToo

          What do you mean, rUK? With the dissolution of Great Britain there would be England and Wales and there would be Northern Ireland. To which are you referring?

          • Henry Hooper

            ….all of the above ‘r’ = equals ‘rest’?….confused?

          • http://cyberunions.org Walton Pantland

            I prefer “former UK”, or fUK.

          • Henry Hooper

            fUK is probably legally correct term, but r has been getting used as either ‘rest’ or ‘rump’.
            ….I might just use fUK from now on……cheers

          • Wessex Man

            and the pair of you show what immature idiots you are.

        • anncalba

          Dream on.

          • Henry Hooper

            “Dream on”?….don’t getcha….why don’t they just simply rule it out then….”unlikely”, “uncertain” …the list goes on…when it come right down to it and they allow some reasonableness and proper consideration of the pros and cons

        • Wessex Man

          Do you indeed, as there is to be a referendum confined to Scotland on it’s future, I would expect the to be a Nationwide referendum in the UK about sharing a currency with a foreign country, whose policies would bear no resemblance to the UK’s!

    • David Milligan

      I think we’ll ask for what is seen to be fair and take our share of the national debt. As a Scot, I would be most unhappy if our negotiators came back with a cheesy grin having robbed anyone. I want Scottish independence to repatriate our political and economic powers and take control of our own resources. We are entitled to a share of the assets which the people of Scotland have fought, died and worked for, that is only fair, but anything beyond that would leave most Scots with a bad taste in their mouths. We believe in honour and fairness in all things.

      Kindest regards,

      David Milligan Lvss

      • greggf

        The only ones to gain from either a Yes or No will be the Geordies David, those rievers and border chameleons of old, because either way Newcastle will retain its position of commerce and trade with Scotland.

        • Tom M

          The only ones who will be guaranteed to win following a yes vote are the politicians and those to whom they appoint to numerous quango jobs. All of whom will receive an index linked, recession proof salary and a gold-plated pension all from the Scottish taxpayer.
          For the rest of the Scottish population it is a big gamble.

          • ChuckieStane

            Tom, one of the reasons the Westminster politicians are so vehement in their opposition to indy is the exact opposite of what you suggest. Two layers of government will be removed (HoC & HoL) with all the hangers on. Is it any surprise they are fighting tooth and nail to keep the union?

        • Chris Morriss

          Bringing back the Border Reivers eh?

          • James Hedman

            They all moved to West Virginia.

          • Wessex Man

            Darn, they left you behind!

          • James Hedman

            Who would want to be forced onto boats and sent into 7 years of indentured servitude on a tobacco plantation in Virginia?

    • greggf

      And a No vote will provide an equally “generous but unjustified Devo-max” settlement Salmon. So much so that Wales will perceive a case for their referendum!

    • CameronB

      Won’t ‘brave Dave’ even play a role in that debate? Anyone might think he is nothing but a big fearty?. Doesn’t he have a mandate?

      • anncalba

        Who, with more than one brain cell, would want to debate with wee Eck?

        • terregles2

          Well any Better Together politician with a brain cell would jump at the chance to win an argument against the Leader of the YES campaign. If they don’t jump at the chance to win an argument in front of everyone in the UK it must be because they know they will lose.

          • rod mac

            The Leader of the YES Campaign is Blair Jenkins , the Chairman of YES is Denis Cannavan.
            As the article states England just doesn’t get it, that is why there will be a YES majority

          • Kalooni

            Scotland will vote Yes because England doesn’t get it.

            Please enlighten me because your comment is as ludicrous as it is mind-blowingly stupid.

          • Fergus Pickering

            He does not argue. He asserts. And if you demur he asserts again but more loudly.

          • Kalooni

            The problem with debating Salmond and his ilk is that they are fundamentally stupid and obtuse.

            As the old adage goes: ‘never argue with stupid people; they drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience’.

          • terregles2

            I don’t doubt that you are an authority on stupidity.

          • Kalooni

            Good one!

  • Tom Hogg

    “They do have one powerful card to play: Britishness.” Interesting. Fight one form of nationalism with a different form of nationalism. I’d like to see how that would pan out.

    • Andrea Faulds

      British nationalism is an interesting beast. It worked during the war, but the war is long gone, and frankly, a lot of Scots feel only Scottish and a lot of English people feel only English.

      • Barry Scarfe

        I’m English but I am also proud to be British. I see no pressing need to make a choice. I can be BOTH.

      • Fergus Pickering

        Tell me, do you honestly think of Danes and Swedes and Norwegians as proudly different. Or do you think of them as Scandinavians and all much the same. Outside this island people do not think of Scots and English and Welsh. They think of British and all much the same. Which is the case.

    • Henry Hooper

      The problem is they’ve been shouting for years that Nationalism is Baaaad…..and drives the pro-indys, like me to correctly portray those waving the union flag as BritNATs

      • James Hedman

        You’re nothing but a scooter riding poofter.

  • Cath Ferguson

    A good and thoughtful piece.

    However the “Britishness” stuff is way off the mark. Britain is a landmass. We will remain “the British Isles” after independence just as Scandinavia remained so after Norway became independent. If this isn’t true, and being British depends on a political union and Scotland being run from Westminster, then romantic idea of Britain as “the land of Shakespeare” makes no sense. Shakespeare, by your own definition, is not and cannot possibly be British. He lived and wrote before even the union of the crowns, far less the political one.

    I’m one of the minority (38% I think) who ticked Scottish and British on the census, due to being half English and feeling quite a strong affinity to Britain – my mod music collection (the union jack covered stuff not the Gealic!) means a lot to me. I do, and still will post independence, cheer on Brad Wiggins over Chris Hoy because I prefer him. Equally, I tend to support Haile Gebrselassie over British runners because of who he is.

    But Scotland needs political independence. We have our own parliament, legal system, NHS and education and the arbitrary lines of devolution that end the responsibility of our elected politicians make no sense.

    You say: “Salmond articulates a vision of a better, purely Scottish future in ways that no unionist politician has yet matched..” To me, the independence campaign articulates a vision of a better British future than that offered by Westminster as well as simple a “Scottish” one. It’s the only hope I can see of one.

    • ChuckieStane

      Cath, Great post.
      I have come round to supporting indy over the past year or so. If the electorate vote no after careful and informed consideration of the issues I will be disappointed but will respect the democratic choice. If, however, we continue to have the relentless scaremongering and disinformation resulting in No scraping a win, I fear there will not only be a sense of grievance but a breaking of Scottish spirit as the no voters will have been convinced that they are indeed too wee, too poor and too stupid. The failure of the No campaign to engage in intelligent, reasoned and positive debate will cause irreparable damage to the union they claim to hold dear.
      Better Together are hopeless is every sense of the word. They are reliant on non-existent labour boots on the ground and tory donors. The staunch support they get from Westminster and the London media comes across as so ill-informed, patronising and sometimes downright offensive that it is perhaps support they could better do without.

      • Dogzzz

        I think it more likely that the negative campaiging of the NO campaign will more likely result in a YES win.

    • Henry Hooper

      Wonderful post (….and not just because I’m ex union jack wearing veapa rider). I think Salmond is the ONLY politician whose priority is those he represents, he is the only one offering change and thus far the only one that recognises that change is an absolutely fundamental requirement for Scots and Scotland.
      Devo-Max could’ve worked, but hey polarising the electorate, politicking and stirring animosity seems to be the British political way, hence no 2nd question…they’d rather kill democracy than improve it!…A ‘No’ vote kills representative democracy in Scotland
      The performance of the pro-union parties since May 2012 has been dreadful……a ‘Yes’ is coming, sooner or later…the genie is out the bottle and the only weapon in the No camps arsenal is fear as espoused by ‘Project Fear’…nothing to agree with, nothing to propose, nothing to commit to. NOTHING except the blind dirge of negativity…they’re losing it but their arrogance is preventing them from recognising it…..lets hope that remains the so!
      Vote ‘Yes’ in 2014

  • JustAnotherPoster

    If scotland wants independence, it needs to take responsibility for the Royal Bank of Scotland, with all its debts…, headquarters in Edinburgh away from the english tax payer. Why should we and english residents be paying to support a scottish bank ?

    • joe bonner

      It doesn’t matter where a banks headquarters are it matters where their business is done that why the same banks that were bailed out here were bailed out in the USA.

      • JustAnotherPoster

        Err. Banks in America were bailed out by the American tax payers, IRISH banks by IRISH taxpayers, English banks by English tax payers. Scottish banks by english tax payers… RBS should have gone bust. But we had a scottish PM a the time who knighted its MD for services to banking. Of course it matters where a bank is based as the tax payers of the country where a bank is based are liable to support it.

        • Gaavster

          Can you please point me in the direction of an English tax payer please?

          I’m sure you meant British, or do Scots, Welsh and N Irish people contribute nothing to the central pot?

          Please refer to the FT article I posted further up the thread

          • http://www.englishstandard.org/ Wyrdtimes

            80% ish of “UK” taxpayers are English

        • joe bonner

          Barclays Bank PLC, Global Headquarters,1 Churchill Place, Canary Wharf, London, E14 5HP, UK.   Barclays is a UK bank and if you accept there is such a thing as a Scottish bank then Barclays is clearly an English bank.

          The public was repeatedly informed by the media during the crash that “Barclays didn’t need a taxpayer bail out at all”. In fact, this proved quite the opposite. Barclays Bank – yes, that English based bank – received the single biggest bail out of any UK bank, but most of it didn’t come from the UK taxpayer.

          Barclays was bailed out to the tune of £552.32bn (at backdated exchange rates) by the US Federal Reserve and £6bn by the Qatari Government.  Or to put it another way, foreign governments bailed out Barclays to the tune of more than twelve times more money than the UK Government’s capital support for RBS (£45bn).

          • Jonathan Munday

            Surely that’s a matter for the American tax payer and has no bearing on arguments about RBS

          • joe bonner

            The original posters point ( I assume) was that the UK bailed out RBS because its headquarters are in Edinburgh which of course is simply untrue my post was simply highliting that. RBS was also bailed out by the USA so my point stands why did the USA bail out a ‘Scottish’ bank?

          • James Hedman

            The argument at the time was “to prevent an imminent collapse of the worldwide banking system and to prevent a global deflationary depression.” Congress was given 24 hours to vote yes and when they didn’t they were given 24 more hours to reconsider which they did and they then voted yes. No congressman actually read the 800 page bill. In fact they never read, let alone write, legislation, their aides do sometimes as it is by and large submitted to them by lobbyists..

          • James Hedman

            The American taxpayer has no say whatsoever in what the privately owned Federal Reserve Bank does or does not do.

        • commentdisqus

          You don’t know what you are talking about, for example: “Barclays was bailed out to the tune of £552.32bn (at backdated exchange rates) by the US Federal Reserve ”

          please read:

          http://www.businessforscotland.co.uk/bizforscotland-destroys-the-no-campaigns-bank-bail-out-lies/

          (#BizforScotland destroys the No Campaign’s bank bail-out lies)

        • Lowland Lass

          So what you are saying is that taxes paid by people living in Scotland and paid to the UK Treasury are “English” taxes. Don’t you all see it is that this will make us vote yes. We are not subsidy junkies and we are not “kept” by England!!!!!

        • DougDaniel

          “IRISH banks by IRISH taxpayers” – err, seriously? That’s the line you’re going with? Were you asleep when the UK contributed to the Irish bailout package in 2010?

        • CameronB

          Westminster is responsible for the regulation and Scotland picks up the tab? Glad we are mates. 😉

      • David Milligan

        Absolutely Joe. The largest bailout was for Barclays Bank by the United States of America, That story wasn’t run and run was it? Much easier to blame the Jocks for everything isn’t it? All these businesses are international. The Royal Bank of Scotland largely belongs to the British tax payer and will eventually be sold off. Now let me think about this one…….does the poster wish us to pay for it and not take ownership or is it the other way round?

        Kindest regards,

        David Milligan Lvss

      • HJ777

        That is far from true. Both matter.

        That is why the UK taxpayer substantially contributed to the ABN Amro bailout via RBS (as it was part of RBS) despite the fact that ABN Amro only carried out a small proportion of its business in the UK.

    • Andrea Faulds

      For all practical intents and purposes, the “Scottish” banks are English. That’s where they do the vast majority of their business.

      • JustAnotherPoster

        So i’m assuming all the “north sea” then is English as thats where the majority of firms process and sell the oil ?

        • DougDaniel

          You do understand that oil has to be pumped out of the ground before it can be processed and sold, yes? Banks don’t extract money from underneath the Scottish section of the North Sea.

          • HJ777

            And that is why oil revenue does not all fall through to the bottom line as the SNP likes to pretend it does.

            Oil revenue in the future is highly uncertain. The SNP’s predictions for it could be accurate but equally they could be very optimistic (they are certainly more optimistic than most forecasts) and the cost of extraction is rising rapidly (trust me, I would with engineering consultants working on this).

      • James Hedman

        For all practical purposes big capital is stateless and moves to other jurisdictions in microseconds when it suits itself to do so. This has been true since the civilized world went off the Bretton Woods agreement in the early 70’s and the US went completely off the gold standard.

  • lucyandpk

    .. don’t let the door smack you on the backside on the way out.

    let’s ALL be given a vote on it..

    • David Milligan

      Independence is enshrined in the United Nations charters. That’s why so many countries have become independent since the second world war. All people have a right to self determination without interference by any other parties. It doesn’t say that everyone in the larger country should be given a vote on it. We’ll still be pals, don’t worry on that account. And neither of us will have bruised posteriors. LOL

      Kindest regards,

      David Milligan Lvss

  • Tony_E

    England has noticed Alex, and it’s indifference is more than striking. Most English people I know are either very neutral (in as much as they like Scotland and it wouln’t stop them going for a holiday) or would be vehemently glad to see the back of the Scots and their ruinous socialism .

    The only people really against it are the die hard Labour supporters who fear that they don’t have a majority in England, even with the current metropolitan weighted boundaries. They don’t care about Scotland much either, but need them to gain power for themselves.

    Scotland and England really would be better off after separation – high fences make good neighbours, I for one would be happy to stay out of their business if they would just stay out of ours (the West Lothian question firmly answered once and for all).

    • fynesider

      “They don’t care about Scotland much either, but need them to gain power for themselves.”

      Only happened about twice in the last 60 years!

      • Tony_E

        But it’ll probably happen next time, and if the Scots didn’t have a say right now the Lib Dems would be on the opposition benches.

        It’s tighter than it’s been for many a year. So yes, they might not have needed scotland before but they sure as hell do now.

        • fynesider

          That’s a lot of assumption… “But it’ll probably happen next time”

          “right now the Lib Dems would be on the opposition benches.” They are in Holyrood & that may be their only place come the next UK election!

  • Diogenes

    Give the English a vote on Scottish independence and it will become a certainty.

    By rights the Orkney and Shetland Isles should get their own vote on staying with
    Scotland, full independence, staying with England, or rejoining Norway. Except Salmond will never let that happen because of the oil – not so keen on the right to self-determination for others it seems.

    • Andrea Faulds

      >By rights the Orkney and Shetland Isles should get their own vote on staying with Scotland

      The British media love playing this one up, but people in Orkney and Shetland don’t actually want to leave Scotland at present. Their council had a resolution on considering their constitutional future (hence the articles), but I don’t believe anything really came of it.

    • Malcolm Wadia

      Self determination applies to countries, not regions and besides. There is absolutely NO support for this in Shetland (8%).

    • DougDaniel

      “Staying with England” – well, that’s quite a revealing way of putting it, isn’t it? Surely you mean “staying with the UK/rUK/England, Wales and Northern Ireland”? Anyway, not only were Orkney and Shetland part of Scotland long before we entered the union in 1707 (and therefore no more entitled to a separate vote than the rest of Scotland), but if you read up on the rules regarding enclaves within a country’s 200 mile economic exclusion zone, you’ll see that this weird nation that the UK could get a chunk of the oil in Scottish waters by hanging onto the northern isles is actually a complete fantasy.

      Besides, why would Orkney and Shetland want to stay in the UK just to give them access to the oil? They’re not daft.

  • Cyril Sneer

    If Scotland were to leave the union then how does this fit with regards to votes for the big parties? I presume it would really hurt Labour…. if so, then go Scots! Please leave the union because all I want is to see Labour buried for good.

    • Andrea Faulds

      Unfortunately for you, there have only been about 2.5 years of Labour government in that last 60 years that required Scotland to have a majority.

  • jmjm208

    They WILL NOT vote for independence for one reason above all others – many Scots are on benefit paid for by the English taxpayer. All these subsidies will cease if they break away.

    • Andrea Faulds

      > many Scots are on benefit paid for by the English taxpayer. All these subsidies will cease if they break away.

      Not true; Scotland’s larger public spending per head is paid for by a larger tax contribution per head.

      • jmjm208

        Does that tax contribution include the VAT the Scots pay on all the whiskey they consume !

        As Prince Philip said to a Scottish driving instructor “How do you keep the natives off the booze long enough to get them through the test?”

    • Malcolm Wadia

      *Sigh*
      Are you aware that while spending per head is £1200 higher (what you call ‘subsidy’) in Scotland, income per head is £1700 higher?

      Spending on welfare in Scotland is 102% UK average but GDP is 120% UK average and revenue 118% so welfare is a lower proportion of national income.

    • DougDaniel

      “many Scots are on benefit paid for by the English taxpayer”

      Och, come on mate, have a bit of ambition with your anti-Jock pish – just say we’re ALL on benefits.

    • fynesider
    • arabian

      jmjm – should your comment not have been sent to the Daily Mail?
      About ninety years ago. Where have you been? What HAVE you been reading?

    • Michele Keighley

      I think you are flying a false flag :)

      • jmjm208

        If Scotland breaks away the country will soon be in a financial crisis (no more subsidies from the English taxpayer) and you will fly the red flag calling for help.

  • rustybear

    If it is a yes vote then presumably the Scottish seats will be removed from the 2015 election? Also I presume the UK civil service are preparing their team to negotiate a deal with the seperated Scots that is totally in the interests of the English, Welsh and Northern Irish? These are or should be the issues that really concern the English (and Welsh and NI). We need to fight our corner and fight it hard. The Civil Service needs, for once, to show itself to be fit for purpose in protecting our rights. Heywood should already be being grilled about his preparations in this area. For everyone to make the right decision it is only fair to the Scots that they know what the UK ex Scotland will be claiming as theirs.

    • Lancastrian_Oik

      “If it is a yes vote then presumably the Scottish seats will be removed from the 2015 election?”

      Exactly- that’s part of the constitutional upheaval right there. If there is a “yes”vote ahead of the 2015 election then Scottish voters should not be allowed to vote on the future of what would become the RUK. It would be politically outrageous and completely unacceptable.

      • Colonel Mustard

        Bet it will still happen though. You wait and see.

      • ChuckieStane

        As a supporter of indpendence, I agree it would be both outrageous and unacceptable, however, as things stand that is what will happen. Scots will still pay tax to Westminster and still fight in UK wars up so until independence day there must be representation.
        This is a prime example of how misjudged the unionist approach is. They are banking on a no vote and believe that by failing to engage in such issues they will prevent indy being seen as a real and tangible prospect. They demand definitive answers from indy supporters on every topic but insult the intelligence of the people of Scotland, England, Nothern Ireland and Wales by failing to take their own responsibilties seriously.

      • DougDaniel

        So we should just have no representation in the parliament that will still decide things like income tax, foreign affairs and welfare for Scotland until we become independent? Aye, good one.

        It should be noted that the next Scottish election was originally scheduled for May 2015, in keeping with our four-year fixed parliaments. However, the UK Coalition didn’t think of that before setting May 2015 as the date of the next UK election, so they simply decided to make the next Scottish election 2016 instead.

        Which begs the question: what happens if Scotland votes No? Unless Westminster decides to adopt four-year parliaments, both elections will be set for May 2020.

      • Bob Waugh

        “What would become the RUK”. Er, no, it would not. The UK is the Union of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. GB is itself based on the Union of 1707 between England & Wales (the latter element having been forcibly incorporated in 1535) and Scotland. Dissolve the 1707 Union and with what exactly is Northern Ireland in Union?
        So any constitutional settlement would require some creative thinking in London (I assure you I’m keeping a straight face here) about exactly what form of constitution will hold the “other bits” together. And this time the people of Wales might want to be consulted….time to stop spouting and start thinking.

    • Andrea Faulds

      >If it is a yes vote then presumably the Scottish seats will be removed from the 2015 election?

      It’s thought by some that the 2015 election will go ahead regardless up here. I imagine they’ll still be elected (we’d need representation while we’re not yet independent, after all), but they’d probably only stick around for a year or so.

      • Bob Waugh

        Almost inevitably that election will take place during independence negotiations which the Ukanian government is trying to drag out.
        So the result in Scotland could be the decisive way of securing a fair settlement…..

    • Henry Hooper

      no taxation without representation

    • arabian

      UK gets who England votes for. Always.
      Electorally, Scots are irrelevant.
      Democratically, Scots are impotent.

      Vote YES 2014

  • humourme

    The Scots will regret leaving. As North Sea Oil runs out there will be a massive shale boom in the south. Given the addiction to state subsidy north of the border, we can expect a bankrupt independent Scotland in a couple of decades. So why should the English care?

    • Andrea Faulds

      >addiction to state subsidy north of the border

      Is this a strange reference to poverty in Scotland (and hence benefit dependence), or is this a repetition of the ‘subsidy junkie’ myth? Scotland more than pays its way.

    • Malcolm Wadia

      “Given the addiction to state subsidy north of the border”

      Are you aware that public spending in Scotland is 42.7% GDP compared to 45.5% for the UK as a whole? It’s covered in the FT article noted above if you don’t believe me.

      I lived in England for 10 years and was often surprised by the mis-conceptions and stereotypes that I found. This was almost certainly not the fault of the person I was talking to. If you’ve been given a certain impression for 30 years, it can be tough to shake off.

      The same is true in Scotland unfortunately. The Yes campaign can point to the fact that, according to GERS (the closest thing we have to national accounts), Scotland’s finances are stronger than the UK’s and have been for 30 years but it goes against everything people thought they knew. In a way, the No campaign had a 30 year head-start!

    • ChuckieStane

      And what will the £1.5tr debt laden UK do when the shale runs out?
      You also forget the world’s first oil refinery was in Scotland… for Shale Oil. We have plenty of shale gas of our own.

    • Lowland Lass

      If you do your research Scotland has quantities of coal bed methane which is easier to extract than shale gas, but also with wave energy in the Pentland Firth we can expect to power half of Scotland. So why should we care what you think!

      • humourme

        Lowland Lass. Hmm. There are no estimates of CBM in Scotland. The BGS has estimated that English reserves in the Bowland Shale alone are 37,000 BCM. Dart Energy has forecast for a specific spot – Airth – reserves of 0.26-.43BCM. P.10:

        http://www.scottish.parliament.uk/ResearchBriefingsAndFactsheets/S4/SB_13-68.pdf

        So 37,000 vs. 0.26 (admittedly just one site), but actual estimates. I think we can go with England is doing better here.
        As for the Pentland Firth, like most green energy schemes, I expect it will require huge subsidies (just like the windmills in Scotland). The Scots should have gone independent in the 1980s when they could have kept the windfall from the North Sea. Now, they will get independence just in time to discover the oil has run out.

  • Jeff Evans

    It’s difficult for anybody in England to do much about the referendum – we don’t have a vote. And, as the author says, any UK minister (and possibly shadow cabinet member) making a pro-union statement is more likely to stimulate the Yes campaign. So we are left with the No campaign being led by “ex-politicians”.

    The best thing for the unionists to do is probably what they are doing – pointing out the very practical difficulties, which Salmond’s white paper boldly glosses over.

    • Charles Patrick O’Brien

      I see very little practical difficulties in running our own country many other people run their own countries why do you think us Scots are not capable? do you think we are daft?or are you afraid of what will happen to EWNI after we dissolve the union will the money we send south for London to spend on sewage and cross rail and high speed train to the “north” hardly half way in the United Kingdom but then you lot in the south just don’t think of all of Britain or UK it goes much further north than Newcastle,there is still a third of the country from the borders to the end of mainland UK.Maybe its the fault of those in the south not recognising Britain when it seems to be you think that Britain is part of England and not the other way round.

      • Jeff Evans

        I never said that the Scots were daft; they are probably as capable as any of running a country. I was merely pointing out that the white paper is still full of suppositions about what the newly-independent government might be able to negotiate with the remaining UK.

        The tone of your reply perfectly demonstrates why it is pointless for non-Scots to attempt to comment on this referendum, which was the basis of the initial article.

  • Lancastrian_Oik

    I know that I keep banging on about this, but I think it’s an important question:

    How come Cameron has allowed the Scots a referendum on secession from the Union whereas the country as a whole is denied a plebiscite on withdrawal from the EU?

    Given a “yes” vote in each instance, the former will surely cause far greater political, economic and constitutional upheaval than the latter.

    • Andrea Faulds

      Cameron is naïve and thinks he can win a Scottish referendum, but not an EU referendum. Also, ultimately, the UK leaving the EU would be more disastrous than Scotland leaving the UK would be, and so they are particularly desperate to stop that happening.

      • ChuckieStane

        Andrea, you make an interesting point. Perhaps the strength of opposition in the Westminster and business against Scottish indy is explained by a fear that a Scottish yes vote, by showing the power of the ballot box, may greatly increase the likelihood of and EU exit for EWNI

      • James Hedman

        What is so disastrous about not being bossed around by Krauts and Frogs or inundated with Gypsies?

    • Salt Ire

      Scotland voted in a clear majority for a party thats main aim was to bring about independence, As such it got a legal mandate to call a referendum on the matter.

      If the UK handed a majority to UKIP or a party campaigning on withdrawing from the UK then you’ve got a mandate for a referendum on that.

    • allymax bruce

      “Given a “yes” vote in each instance, the former will surely cause far
      greater political, economic and constitutional upheaval than the latter.”
      You’ve just hit the nail on the head; a little bit more thinking, and you’re there!

  • ryongsong

    I can’t really see why I wouldn’t be able to still feel British after a Yes vote. We’d still be part of the British Isles, just as Norway is part of Scandinavia. I’d probably still cheer on Jessica Ennis at the Olympics in the same way Danes might cheer on a Norwegian (and they do).

    Surely the problem is that we were never ‘better together’ in our marriage of convenience. If we had been, my kids would study for A levels, Rangers and Celtic would be in the Premier League, and there wouldn’t be such a thing as a ‘Scotland correspondent’ within UK media organisations.

  • hdb

    The Union has run its course. Sentimentally I would be sorry to see it go. It is like a couple divorcing after their diamond wedding anniversary. But we have to face facts that it just isn’t democratic any more. The Scots haven’t got a government they voted for since the seventies (not to pedants: Blair’s New Labour Project is not what the Scots voted for, they voted Labour as they always have done). How much longer can a country go on having to put up with a government their neighbours want but that they don’t? There was a time when this could have been fixed by making sure the political cultures of the two didn’t drift too far apart (I’d say sometime about early Blair). But nobody was paying attention and now it is too late. Whether it votes Yes or No in September Scotland is making its own way now apart from Britain.

  • McRobbie

    I am English living in Scotland and a conservative by nature…and I am seriously considering voting for independance. My thoughts on the subject may differ and indeed be somewhat perverse. I think independance for Scotland will be a short to medium term financial disaster, until Scots recognise that left wing SNP and Labour policies are anti business and damaging their financial quality of life and prospects, with close comparisons of the alternative being seen with a healthy english economy next door. There will in a decade be a swing to the right as the scots are far too pragmatic to accept their own taxes will be going on the wasteful unproductive public sector and welfare scroungers. So with the loss of Scottish labour seats England will immediately have a stronger pro business right wing government and eventually so will Scotland. Win win for the right.

    • EnglandLaments

      Interesting thought. The constitutional implications are massive however – supposing Scotland votes for independence and then in 2015, Miliband wins a majority in Westminster, solely on a account of the serried ranks of Scottish Labour MPs – the whole country would become ungovernable for a couple of years at least.

      • fynesider

        the ” serried ranks of Scottish Labour MPs” will no longer be there, we’ll be independent and, even if, Scottish Labour MPs have only twice made any difference to Labour becoming the Govt. of the day.

      • dmurdo1

        more likely Miliiband romps home because of UKIP and the collapse of the Tory vote.

    • asalord

      Hello McRobbie. I hope you do vote Yes in September. People will vote Yes for many reasons and I respect, if not agree, will your own reasons. I don’t think independence will mean a short or medium financial disaster, however I do believe it will benefit the Scottish Tory party and the many people who, perfectly reasonably, hold right-wing views.
      The first general election in an independent Scotland will be very interesting.
      The SNP will stay a political party, and probably the majority party at first, but its members and supporters will soon make a personal choice about moving to the left or right. Some [many?] will leave for other parties. As I said before this will benefit right-wing parties in Scotland because they will no longer be seen as London-centric parties. A good political balance will be arrived at by the second general election of an independent Scotland.
      Vote Yes [I hope] for a fairer, more balanced, country.

  • mandelson

    Bear in mind that if you Scots make a good fist of independence many of us English may leave our multi culti open borders Hell Hole and join you in your Braveheart monoculture theme park!

    • DougDaniel

      Sorry, have you not heard what Theresa May and various other UK government ministers have been saying? There will be armed border guards and all sorts of things. Apparently.

      • MichtyMe

        And that from people who cannot secure the existing borders from undesirables entering. Going tae secure a land frontier….my erse.

    • fynesider

      Rebuilding of Hadrian’s Wall just north of Potters Bar then?

    • Charles Patrick O’Brien

      You’ll be very welcome,why not just come on up just now? we could do with more people.

  • Gold Bug

    Good luck to Salmond. Let him take Scotland out of the union. Not more subsidies, no more Scottish Prime Ministers for England, no more Labour governments. Strict controls on Scottish immigration (as they’ll no longer be in the EU). The country will be in the grip of hard line socialist/communist idiots that will wreck the whole economy even quicker than we’ve let them wreck ours and they won’t even be able to blame Westminster for their failings. What a laugh.

    • DougDaniel

      Bad news matey – when Labour win UK elections, they do so by winning the most seats in England. Scottish seats have never turned a Conservative majority into a Labour one.

      (And if you want a “Prime Minister for England”, you should probably start supporting English independence, unless you just don’t realise that the UK consists of FOUR nations, not two.)

    • fynesider

      1 … and what ‘subsidies’ do you speak of?

      2 “we’ve let them wreck ours” – oh really, a few facts to back up your assertion please

    • Charles Patrick O’Brien

      How do those sour grapes taste?good eh!,its not Salmond by himself,there are many people like me wanting independence since 1967 (me) others for much longer.The subsidies come from Scotland to England go check for yourself if your honest enough! Scotland is the only part of the UK that is a NET EXPORTER OF FOOD AND POWER,not counting oil or gas.That makes for a rich country,we just need more people our immigration needs are different from the South-East.

  • kle4

    I’ve always thought the SNP looked the more likely to win this one, and I’m surprised its taken until now for people to start panicking. Momentum and organization, as you say, and sheer passion. I think a lot of Union supporters, seeing the apathy in the largest nation in the union, have essentially given up and are going through th emotions as best they can unfortunately.

    • Derick Tulloch

      Visible in the robotic delivery of Darling, the yellow complexion of McDougal and (shudders!) the cringing speeches by the SLAB MPs

  • I_am_not_completely_stupid

    There are some unintended consequences which need evaluating urgently, regarding the English response to a Yes vote in Scotland. An opinion poll among the English would be the best way.

    Questions along these lines.

    If Scotland votes to split up the UK, would you;

    Be more likely or less likely to holiday in Scotland?

    Be more likely or less likely to buy Scottish branded food, drink or other products?

    If the answer is “Less likely”, would you class your aversion as weak, moderate or strong?

    If you are English and living in Scotland, would a yes vote make you think about leaving Scotland?

    I am English, have worked in Scotland for 12 years and moved back to England when I saw the writing on the wall. I have been at the receiving end of offensive anti-English racism on many occasions, and personally speaking, if Scotland votes YES, I won’t be buying anything Scottish again, (I already buy as little as possible), and I won’t even think about holidaying there again either, and if I hadn’t already moved, I would be off like a shot.

    There will be serious consequences for the Scottish economy in the event of a YES vote, and they won’t be good ones. There will be a downside to nationalist thuggery.

    • DougDaniel

      Oh dear, we’ll be so sorry to lose your begrudging custom.

    • Salt Ire

      So this is “lovebombing” is it?

      I can see the headlines – “Scotland’s Economy Collapses after Man decides not to buy Tunnock’s Tea-Cake”

    • Salt Ire

      There are some unintended consequences which need evaluating urgently, regarding the English response to a Yes vote in Scotland. An opinion poll among the Scottish would be the best way.

      Questions along these lines.

      If Scotland votes to split up the UK, would you;

      Be more likely or less likely to holiday in England?

      Be more likely or less likely to buy English branded food, drink or other products?

      If the answer is “Less likely”, would you class your aversion as weak, moderate or strong?

      If you are Scottish and living in England, would a yes vote make you think about leaving England?

      I am Scottish, have worked in England for 12 years and moved back to Scotland when I saw the writing on the wall. I have been at the receiving end of offensive anti-Scottish racism on many occasions, and personally speaking, if Scotland votes YES, I won’t be buying anything English again, (I already buy as little as possible), and I won’t even think about holidaying there again either, and if I hadn’t already moved, I would be off like a shot.

      There will be serious consequences for the English economy in the event of a YES vote, and they won’t be good ones. There will be a downside to nationalist thuggery.

      That sounds perfectly reasonable doesn’t it?

    • John Swapp

      I’ve lived here 12 years and have never hidden the fact that I’m a Yorkshireman. I’ve travelled and stopped in the length and breadth of the country and have never had a bad word said against me. I’ve employed ex Glaswegian shipyard workers and after years of working together had to leave them. No blood was shed then, just a few tears. A more friendly people, I have yet to meet!. I also worked in London, over several years – That’s another story! You sir, sound very much like an angry bigot and need to look to within to analyse why you arouse feeling against yourself.

      • I_am_not_completely_stupid

        There are a great many very pleasant people living in Scotland; there are also those (only a few) who punch people on the nose simply for being English. It does tend to cause strong feelings and it has nothing to do with bigotry. Nationalism can be dangerous; it arouses strong feelings which are inevitably reciprocated.

    • fynesider

      Cheerio then…

    • fynesider

      “nationalist thuggery.”

      Explain yourself… if you are able….

    • Charles Patrick O’Brien

      Seems petty not to buy products you like because of a country deciding it wants to rule itself.Did you stop buying coffee from Kenya or tea from Idea when they decided to run their own country?

    • arabian

      The only ‘Nationalist’ thugs I have ever seen. Ever. Were tattooed with the Union flag

  • Nick

    There’s still one thing I don’t understand. I have posted about this before on various fora and have been shot down but – hey ho – I’ll have another try.
    My mother was from Lanarkshire. I have family documents tracing us back to Ferintosh in the Black Isle and I have an ancestor who fought (and lost) at Culloden. She moved south and married an Englishman; they subsequently moved back up to Scotland before their deaths. I live and work in England because that is where my livelihood is. But under any form of international law I would be entitled to a Scottish passport. Why is it, though, that I am denied a vote on what happens to Scotland when – you’ll forgive me – an Afghan fresh off the plane who happens to be resettled in Glasgow is given a say? I just don’t get it

    • Lowland Lass

      It is the same as voting for the Scottish Parliament, you need to be resident in Scotland. The only difference is 16 and 17 year olds are allowed to vote. You must fit into one of the following categories:
      British, Irish and all other European Union citizens who are resident in Scotland will be able to vote.
      Commonwealth citizens who either have leave to remain in the United Kingdom or do not require such leave also qualify.
      Members of the armed services will also be able to have their say – as long as they are registered to vote in Scotland.
      If there was a referendum on the UK leaving the EU would we expect people who moved out of the UK to vote on that?

      • Nick

        I see there’s a one bedroom flat in Dundee for rent at £320 a month – and I don’t doubt that if I delved a little deeper I could find all sorts of places a damn sight cheaper – so if I take out a year’s tenancy then I can have a vote? Without ever going there?

        • Lowland Lass

          You would need to check the electoral commission website for the rules.

    • ChuckieStane

      Would an 80 year old Australian who emigrated with her parents as a baby get a vote? If you were resident in France would you get a vote in a UK EU referendum? If you get a vote in the referendum would you still expect a vote in the GE for your current English constituency? It is a difficult issue but the referendum arrangement is the fairest possible.

    • DougDaniel

      Pretty simple really – the Afghan will have a vote in Scottish elections, whereas you won’t.

      If you want a say in who governs the people who live and work in Scotland, then I suggest you become one of the people who live and work in Scotland.

      • Nick

        If I persuade my employer to rent an office and residential address for – say – three months over the period of the referendum – does that work for you? Even if I never visit?

        • DougDaniel

          It’d be a bit weird to be so desperate to have a say in the future of a country that you apparently have no intention of ever even visiting that you’d go to such lengths; but it’d be perfectly legal to do so, yes.

          • Nick

            But don’t you see the point? A Parliamentary election occurs every five years and during that time people move around so the demographic of each constituency changes and I wholly accept that. What I am saying is that this is a vote which has the potential to undo three hundred years of history and it is based on a snapshot of residents without any necessary affiliation to the country in which they are given a vote. If half the population of Scotland left the day after the referendum because they had jobs abroad, relatives to live with, or a better offer of accommodation somewhere else, why should they have the right to decide the future of a nation when it is of no relevance to them?

          • DougDaniel

            “If half the population of Scotland left the day after the referendum because they had jobs abroad, relatives to live with, or a better offer of accommodation somewhere else, why should they have the right to decide the future of a nation when it is of no relevance to them?”

            Because they had the good fortune to live here when the referendum took place. That’s how referendums (and elections) work.

            Yes I see your point. For some reason you think this should be the only vote in history that bases its franchise not on who lives here, but on people who feel some sort of affinity to the place. There are plenty of people in the US who have Scottish backgrounds – do we open the vote to them as well? But what about people who don’t live in Scotland yet but will do in the future? Do we ask the entire world who intends to live in Scotland at some point and give them a vote?

            That Afghan you mention (let’s pretend you said Belgian for illustrative purposes since a Belgian would have a vote) could end up living in Scotland for the rest of their life, meaning the future of Scottish governance has everything to do with them. Yet your argument is that you, someone who isn’t actually affected by the day-to-day decisions made by the Scottish parliament, have more “affiliation” to Scotland, just because of your background. I’m sorry, but you don’t.

            Your argument is akin to saying to someone “I get to decide what wallpaper you put up in your living room because my mum used to stay in your flat.” Meanwhile, the current occupant – who’s only just moved in but intends to live there for many years to come – doesn’t get a say, because they come from Afghanistan/Belgium/wherever.

            I mean, seriously, how would you propose we decide who gets to vote and who doesn’t?

          • Nick

            I recognise your argument and also I am grateful for your courteous reply! I also recognise that I am on a losing wicket here; but it still annoys me. I went to University at St Andrews back in the middle ages and my friends who did modern languages had a term abroad in the country relevant to their study; accordingly their counterparts came over to Scotland. Things have undoubtedly changed since then but it still sticks in my craw that your theoretical Belgian, who is over for a three month placement, can have a vote on a subject about which she/he knows or cares nothing, and then go back to Antwerp and forget all about it. And before you ask, I acknowledge that a British student in Antwerp on an exchange would presumably have the same right – but the question doesn’t arise at present and I am sure that when it does (as clearly it will) there will be the same grumpy buggers raising this point! But thank you for entertaining my arguments.

          • fynesider
          • tipster

            As a US citizen with a Scottish background, I would ask to be left out of this election. We enough issues with our own, thank you very much! I would ask that the next referendum include less sideways rain in Scotland, however. Oh, you can keep some of it (national character builder and all), just a bit less for us tourists.

    • http://www.englishstandard.org/ Wyrdtimes

      If you want to vote – go back to Scotland. Stay in England and you’ll have no say on Scotland or England.

    • John Swapp

      He resides here, you care not to.

    • Charles Patrick O’Brien

      An Afghan fresh off the plane who happens to be resettled in Glasgow DOES NOT GET TO VOTE.You need to check on your facts before you assume,wrongly as most of us do.

  • oakhill1863

    England does not need a Kitchener; rather, it needs a Lincoln, willing to say, “no” to disunion, and, if necessary, willing to send in Commonweath troops to back up the “no.”

    Keevan D. Morgan, Esq., Chicago

    • Salt Ire

      So just deny their right to vote on self-determination and if they get uppity, shoot them?

  • CameronB

    Alex, is Britain not a unitary state, rather than a country? Also, do you think it is really a good idea to bring up the ‘Great War’, given what that Scots losses were?

    “I will just quote from Tom Devine’s book, The Scottish Nation. page 309:

    Of the 157 battalions which comprised the British Expeditionary Force, 22 were Scottish regiments…

    Of the 557,000 Scots who enlisted in all services, 26.4 percent lost their lives. This compares with an average death rate of 11.8 percent for the rest of the British army between 1914 and 1918. Of all the combatant nations, only the Serbs and the Turks had higher per capita mortality rates, but this was primarily because of disease in the trenches rather than a direct result of losses in battle. The main reason for the higher-than-average casualties among the Scottish soldiers was that they were regarded as excellent, aggressive shock troops who could be depended upon to lead the line in the first hours of battle.”

    http://caledonianmercury.com/2012/04/16/opinion-why-ypres-matters-more-than-bannockburn-for-the-independence-vote/0032258

    BTW Alex, are you suggesting Westminster should scrap the Edinburgh Agreement?

  • Kitty MLB

    Well of course Alec Salmond,is within striking distance of victory.
    According to a Scottish friend of mine, the think the Scots hate more then
    England ( sensitive souls ) happens to be the Conservatives-
    someone should explain about Cameron being a Liberal at heart – but never mind!
    Mr Salmond probably purposely waited until their was a ‘ Conservative’
    government and then pounced.

    • fynesider

      “Mr Salmond probably purposely waited until their was a ‘ Conservative’ government and then pounced.”

      You make it sound like a devilish plot… The voters in Scotland are responsible for the SNP being in power in Holyrood and we are not able to sway a UK election in any discernible fashion. The balancing of the books by John Swinney in the first term of office – and every one after as well – certainly didn’t do any harm either!

      I do agree that Alex ‘pounced’ but only when he had been voted in on a ‘independence’ mandate.

      • Kitty MLB

        ‘ devilish plot’…I like that.
        I was being slightly whimsical and perhaps a little devilish myself.
        I am sure Mr Salmon is not that devious and above board in all
        things.

        • fynesider

          Fair enough…

  • M. Wenzl

    Despite increasing their share of support, the nationalists remain consistently and significantly behind in the polls. Late-stage campaigning may have saved Salmond with respect to Holyrood election, but a referendum on independence is no longer parochial. If Salmond can’t seize upon hearts and minds now, he likely won’t be able to come September.

    • CameronB

      Significantly behind in the polls? According to whom, what questions were asked and who was surveyed? Do the polls matter?

      • M. Wenzl

        Yes, the polls do matter, when they show up consistent trends over time. The US election was a recent example. Polling techniques have also improved significantly over recent years, based on the plurality of questions asked, and their frequency through the internet. As to what polls, well, have you seen any of the polls by, say, Ashcroft, Ipsos or YouGov?

    • ChuckieStane

      The psephologists may or may not be right in their analysis. Pollsters weight there results generally by voting patterns from previous elections. Polling suggests the referendum turn out may be 75-80% meaning many who don’t normally vote intend do so. How this affects the models is a significant variable.

  • allymax bruce

    ” Salmond’s nationalists offer a tryst with destiny. And the future.”
    Very good, Alex; I like the image & synergy brought to that wee line.
    To the article; “unionists think their case is so self-evident that it doesn’t need to be made with the same passion or verve” I’ve noticed that also; this iScotland referendum has been coming for nigh-on 6 years, and neither Labour, Conservatives, nor Lib-Dems have given any ‘light’ to what their ‘prospectus’ would be for iScotland; this is a huge mistake by these Party’s. As for the ‘likely’ Yes vote; it’s in the bag! I have Yes on 50% so far; I also have, (like you say), the undecideds at a shrinking 16%. The nearer it gets to the iScotland Yes vote, the Yes vote will only increase.

  • NotYouNotSure

    Britain is not just a political system, even if Scotland and England go their separate ways, there will still be Britain.

    • Barry Scarfe

      No, only the landmass will remain the same. The Union of Great Britain was formed by England and Scotland coming together as one. If one partner leaves then Great Britain will come to an end. That is what is at stake here.

  • Henry Hooper

    England or rUK hasn’t noticed because 1) it doesn’t care and 2) if it did care, it only has its own media whose London-centric view distorts reality to such an extent that they needn’t have bothered reporting it….Scotlands far superior financial status upon independence compared to the UK being an indicative example of how London media and by extension the population of England/ rUK fully believes its own lies. (Mondays FT article being an exception ….but totally ignored by the mainstream media of course.
    The UK is a lost cause. It should have allowed federalism, its should have allowed representative democracy. Put simply it (Pro-union parties) should have allowed a 2nd question, (colloquially called in Scotland the “Independence killer”) in the referendum, instead of the so called “clarity” and “clear and precise answer”…..Salmond indeed played a blinder.
    What Salmonds blinder has done is force once pro-union voters (like me) to vote for Independence as that’s the only way Scots are going to get advantageous change….no-one has justification for any trust that that may remain with them.
    Cameron with his arrogance deserves to take credit for the break-up of the UK…whether that happens now or in the near future (if there is a ‘No’ in September).
    Independence is now inevitable, no-one except Tories believes the Westminster works for Scots and Scotland. Trust in the Westminster system has been completely lost.
    All i would say to my many English friends and colleagues is ‘You’re welcome’ to join us..your kids and grandkids will have a future, a publicly funded (non-Gove)good education, our NHS is still a service and not a business and bankers will be held to account for any future wrong doings……join us, an increased standard and quality of living awaits you

    • James Hedman

      The Scots NHS? No wonder your life expectancy is so short.

      • scotcanadien

        And the English NHS? If you enter it anywhere get your affairs in order because you are unlikely to come out alive, what with lack of proper drugs, ‘managers’ running it, old people left to die in filth, ugh, 3rd world and a bit.

        • Fergus Pickering

          Come sir. You do not know what you are talking about. The NHS has treated me very well. I take three different kinds of drugs for which I pay nothing. I had a heart operation for which I paid nothing. The hospital I stayed at was extremely clean. I saw nobody dying in filth.

  • classieview

    I am convinced that the British-orientated, originally English, Scots living in England but each for independence are attractive -sounding and essentially contrived jingles from the Yes for Scotland laboratory.
    Given the amount of state cash that the SNP has directed into its campaigning effort, it would be strange if such ‘false flag operations’ were not a feature of the campaign.

    But at least it marks a refreshing interlude away from the shrill and bellicose cybernat eruptions. Of course the British-orientated folk rooting for independence here have never come across the cybernats before or will be merely bemused at those excitable Nats who, as on previous occasions, have recommended that only the lunatic asylum is a fit abode for people with my ‘paranoia’.

    • fynesider

      “Given the amount of state cash that the SNP has directed into its campaigning effort, it would be strange if such ‘false flag operations’ were not a feature of the campaign.” Do you have any facts to back up this assertion?

      • classieview

        For starters:
        The increasing politicisation of the civil-service – white paper, media operations etc.
        The role of the voluntary sector composed of charities and campaigning groups – the beneficiary of much government funding for which a political return is expected.

        • fynesider

          Can I repeat my last query please “Do you have any facts to back up this assertion?

          • classieview

            I know from my own direct experience of a religious organization now in receipt of state funding, how political services are expected and then provided so as to boost the chances of a Yes victory in September.
            No doubt to your own frustration I am not going to name the body, but from all that we know of Alex Salmond’s proprietorial approach to government, these methods are simply second nature to him.

          • fynesider

            Name and shame….

          • classieview

            Laughable that a party that takes pride in recruiting media mind-benders whose brazeness would startle Peter Mandelson, is suddenly going all pious and virtuous.
            If its ‘Yes’ in 7 months, I expect a slew of ‘tell all’ memoirs about the dirty tricks (legit ones of course) which ‘swept Scotland to freedom’.

          • fynesider

            You’re doing it again….

            I have not been recruited by anyone if that is your assertion. ‘Pious & virtuous’ what are you talking about?

          • fordetina9@gmail.com

            Twat 3.

  • JabbaTheCat

    All that’s needed is for Cameron to announce two weeks before the referendum that the Scots can’t use sterling if they go their own way, and that will focus many minds north of the border to the edge of the abyss that Salmond has led them to…

    • Salt Ire

      Anyone can use Sterling, it’s a freely traded currency.

    • John Swapp

      Why would Westminster deny Scotland the pound as it’s only Scotland that’s keeping Westminsters balance of payments just looking poorly as opposed to being on its deathbed! As a foot shooting exercise, a major coup and Westminster is well aware of this and all its implications -Rising interest rates on government borrowings plus rises in taxes to pay them. Net result, UK economy slips back into reverse gear!. One reason why not one member of the Westminster government has declared “There will be NO currency union”!

    • NotYouNotSure

      Making the issue of independence about money is not going to win support rather it will have the exact opposite effect.

    • tipster

      Pretty much any country can use any currency they wish. Several use the dollar because of stability issues. The consequence of not having your own currency is that fiscal policy regarding that currency is completely out of your hands. And you cannot print more of it to simulate your economy or set interest rates on bonds associated with it. The US does not make fiscal decisions worrying about what the impact would have on Panama or Ecuador. The remainder of the UK would not base decisions on what would be best for Scotland, but rather what would be best for England, Wales and NI. Scottish concerns and inputs to sterling fiscal policy fall off the map if they keep it.

  • ann mcclure

    Alan Massie’s question ‘Why hasn’t England – no mention of Wales and NI- noticed’, is self explanatory.

    England on the whole doesn’t care what Scotland does – Andy Murray only hope to save England’s Davis Cup chances? – and it’s only journalists and expat Scots in England who seem to be surprised at this.

  • fynesider

    Excuse me guys – it’s not Alex Salmond’s referendum, it’s our (the people of Scotland) referendum!

  • Craig Hutchison

    Just for clarity, this is not Alex Salmond’s poll, it’s Scotland’s referendum with people off all political persuasions represented in the Yes grassroots campaign.

  • Peter Stroud

    If Scotland votes yes, then it will never again have a Tory government. But the rest of GB will, probably, never again have a Labour government.

    • ChuckieStane

      We don’t know what parties will organise in Scotland (parties cannot operate in two countries).
      England has virtually never needed Scotland to get a labour government

  • Raw England

    So what? What are you fighting for, Alex? Do you have any idea how seriously in danger England is now? We’re currently being crushed, killed, impoverished and destroyed by immigration and multiculturalism. Literally. So, we English don’t give a F**K about Scotland right now. We don’t care – at all.

    The Scots WANT immigration and multiculturalism. The Scots drain us (as if we’re not being drained enough by immigrants). And, the Scots want to GET RID OF TRIDENT.

    You all want VERY different things to what we want.

    We do not care what Scotland does. We care only about the final, desperate push to reclaim OUR nation, England.

    Thanks.

    • CameronB

      Ouch, you do come across as rather raw, and woefully ill informed if you are really so concerned about democracy. Do you really think Scotland is a drain on England?

    • dmurdo1

      I bet you like a man in an uniform. Thinking of joining the swivelled eye loons are you? remember UKIP will more likely split the Tory vote and good old Millibands crew will romp home. If only the English had sussed out what Scots did back in the 80′ and 90’s.

    • James Hedman

      Well said.

  • Jagatheesan Chandrasekharan

    Όταν
    η κα Mayawati εγκατασταθεί SC / ST / OBC Ιστορικά Εικόνες αγάλματα του
    RSS BJP έκανε μια μεγάλη κατακραυγή όπως ήταν κοσμική ηγέτες . Τώρα,
    όχι το σώμα , συμπεριλαμβανομένων των μέσων μαζικής ενημέρωσης δεν
    κλαίνε όταν άγαλμα Valabai του Patel προτείνεται να εγκατασταθεί στο
    Γκουτζαράτ από την CM . Junagad WHCI έχει το δάσος Sasan Ghir έχει επίσης φρούριο Ashoka και αρχαίο ναό του Βούδα . Βρίσκονται σε ερείπια . Εάν η κ. Mayawati παραδίδεται το Master Key , τότε αυτά τα κοσμικά πράγματα θα λάβει χώρα .

    RSS του BJP , το Κογκρέσο , AAP προσπαθούν καλύτερο εαυτό τους για να
    δουν BSP δεν αποκτήσουν δύναμη που θα βοηθήσει sarva Samaj για την
    ευτυχία και την ευημερία τους ειρήνη με την εφαρμογή των Συνταγματικών
    διατάξεων που έχει αποφύγει όλα αυτά τα χρόνια

    29 ) Digha Nikaya – Poṭṭhapāda Sutta στην Κλασική γερμανική

    4 Φλεβάρη του 2014 στις 05:12 πμ

    Sutta Pitaka

    – Το καλάθι των λόγων –

    [ Sutta : λόγος ]

    Digha Nikaaya

    DN 9 –

    Potthapaada Sutta

    { απόσπασμα }

    – Τα θέματα της Potthapaada –

    – Το καλάθι των λόγων –

    [ Sutta : λόγος ]

    Η Sutta Pitaka περιέχει την ουσία των
    τη διδασκαλία του Βούδα σχετικά με το Dhamma . Περιέχει περισσότερα από δέκα
    χιλιάδες suttas . Χωρίζεται σε πέντε συλλογές που ονομάζεται Nikaayas .

    Αγγλικά

    Τώρα , Λόρδος , δεν προκύπτουν πρώτη αντίληψη , τη γνώση και μετά? Ή μήπως
    γνώση προκύπτουν πρώτα, και μετά από την αντίληψη ? ή να κάνετε αντίληψη &
    γνώση προκύπτουν ταυτόχρονα;

    Potthapada , αντίληψη απορρέει κατ ‘αρχάς , και μετά γνώση . και το
    που προκύπτουν από τη γνώση προέρχεται από την αντίληψη που προκύπτουν . Ένα διακρίνει ,
    « Είναι σε εξάρτηση από αυτό ότι η γνώση μου έχει προκύψει . Μέσω αυτής της
    συλλογιστική μπορεί κανείς να συνειδητοποιήσει πως η αντίληψη απορρέει κατ ‘αρχάς , και
    γνώσεων μετά , και πώς η γνώση που προκύπτει προέρχεται από τη προκύπτουν
    αντίληψης .

  • PaulK

    It is an old saying that if you shield a man from the effects of his folly you will ultimately fill the world full of fools.
    England doesn’t really want Scotland to learn by its mistakes but what other option have we got but to watch it happen? The Scottish people will decide their future, and England desperately hopes that the decision will be based, not on unthinking, passionate hopes, but on a cool, intelligent assessment of facts from experts and chief executives in the financial and business world.

    • Henry Hooper

      “chief executives in the financial and business world”………you are being ironic I hope…….they *ucked our economy to the value of £19,000 per every single person in the UK.
      Scotland has been subsidising the UK for every single year for the last 32 years. FACT….but of course you don’t have a clue…..keep your head in the ground mate, better kept there

  • Paul Bethune

    Alex, we warned you early on in the campaign that this would be the outcome. Independence at the beginning of a new century allows Scots to dream of a better future, if not at least control of that future. The union No campaign offers nothing but more of the same and the positive case has (predictably) never materialised. Banging the drum about shared culture and wars says nothing about the future of the union – and that is where Westminster and those affiliated to Better Together have failed to offer a vision of.

    Understandably, that is why the Yes campaign that offers nothing but a future will win and will win convincingly by 20 points. Then we can have another 18 months of MSM pantomime on the division of the UK.

    Best of luck to our old partners in England. They will finally be able to be English without the mask of Britain obscuring their views of their own society.

    • Fergus Pickering

      The Scots are just English who speak funny, aren’t they?

  • john

    Hooray!
    Go for it Salmond! Finally, we have a chance to see a fundamental change in Britain’s constitutional arrangements. Let’s boot the House of Lords and the Monarchy next.

  • sfin

    Can they take Liverpool and most of the post industrial North with them?

    They could rename it “The people’s Socialist Republic of Whineland”. We, in the United Kingdom of England, Wales and Northern Ireland could just refer to them as “The Tribal Lands”.

    England’s attitude, like with most things that are an EU construct – is completely apathetic. The break up of the current UK was blueprinted in the Maastricht Treaty. After Scotland leaves, the regionalisation of England will begin (already started by the London Assembly – London being an EU ‘region’).

    Like most EU plans, it cannot be ‘stopped’ by a ‘no’ vote – only ‘paused’ (like the North East assembly plans) – so long as we are in the EU – they will happen eventually.

  • cromwell

    Let the Scots go free and have their own country. Given the insane left wing program they will execute I figure about 10 to 15 years before they are begging to be a part of GB again .
    Sometimes you are better off letting the children burn their fingers.

    • Salt Ire

      And sometimes your children grow up to be more successful than you.

      • tipster

        Or end up in rehab or jail, living off the welfare state.

        • Salt Ire

          If their parents taught them so.

          • tipster

            Fair enough. But how many troubled youth come from decent homes? At some point, they make decisions on their own, be it for good or ill. Frankly, I would not mind seeing Scotland go indy. It will be an interesting experiment. But I can say this as an observer, since my ancestors left Scotland a couple hundred years ago. I will suffer no significant loss nor gain any significant benefit either way. I wonder how independent it will be. Will it have its own currency or let London dictate its fiscal policy? Will it provide its own defense or sub-contract that out to the remaining UK to a large degree? And what losses will there be regarding governance due to economies of scale being diminished? I will watch and see (like everyone else).

          • Salt Ire

            You sound like a troubled youth. It’s all “I”, “I”, “I”…

            This debate can’t be diluted to currency, defence or even the balance of payments (being fair to you and just to show balance).

            It’s not up to “I” really is it?

        • fordetina9@gmail.com

          Twat 2.

    • fordetina9@gmail.com

      Twat.

  • Nele Schindler

    Wouldn’t this be a dream come true – losing a majority of Labour voters in one fell elegant swoop? I can’t wait.

  • Colin Laing

    Must take issue with your headline. Mr Salmond is just the leader of a political party put into power by Scottish people, many of whom demanded that a referendum be called. This stupid idea that Mr Salmond’s is the only person who wants independence is one of the reasons we will win our independence. The English media is so arrogant as to think no one else wants it and it will never happen, Sorry, this is about the working people of Scotland rising up, fed up of our country being strangled by westminster for three hundred years and robbed blind over the last 40 years.

    • allymax bruce

      The media are bombarding the Scots populace with Scotch Labour Party -designed ‘dark noise’ (all rights reserved to allymax), propaganda; it’s all about pumping primal Depressive fixations into the Scots society, thus fixating Scots society on their fears. That’s why The Scotch Labour Party have gone all ‘more moral than thee’, by ‘moralising the amoral’ (all rights reserved to allymax), when, in-fact, The Labour party are the most corrupt mafia in World Politics. The meeja in Scotland, all of it, BBC News, STV News, all the tabloids, especially the Glesca Herod & Scotchman, all work for The Scotch Labour party, of whom, is ‘directed & led’ by a super-conglomeration of corporate Republicans. In essence, when any Scot votes for Labour, they are voting to allow these super-rich parasites steal all our resources, and bind us in bondage to a Marxist Capitalist consumer economy; of which, is shown to have caused all our ‘financial’ problems. So, these media outlets are, to all intents and purposes, owned by super-rich Republican conglomerates, of which, also know Scotland will vote Yes, but they want their own sleekit easily-bribed troughers, aka, Scotch Labour, in political power. Thus, the media concentrate more on defaming, smearing, & inciting hate against our Good & Gracious Alex’ Salmond & SNP, than they do about the Referendum, or iScotland. Labour are the ‘dark masters’ of psychological warfare; just look at all the nasty cringing journos in Scotland that take their 30 pieces, and do their bidding. In-deed, you don’t get into the Scotch journo clique unless you are a nasty cringing hate-inciting Labour-voting scumbag!

      • allymax bruce

        Thanks for the ‘vote-up’, elizbroadly. Most Scots don’t see what’s happening to them as they sit and watch the tv & read the Press. I think you are seeing the same thing I’m seeing with the Press in Scotland now. Thank you; much appreciated. allymax.
        P.s, you have my backing for your role in the EU when we are iScotland.

  • Dave McEwan Hill

    I am astounded how far behind the issue many respondents here are.
    It rather looks like the utter nonsense and subsidy myths about Scotland economic and fiscal position re UK which have been effectively been scotched for all intelligent and informed Scots still are believed in England.
    Which rather begs the question – why would deeply indebted UK hang onto Scotland if it was costing billions to do so?

  • Charles Patrick O’Brien

    I notice there is a lot of chat over being British,why ? Britain is geographical,and the UK is the union of crowns,the Scottish Parliament was suspended in 1707 and business was conducted in Westminster for practical reasons,and not so hard to just do business back in Edinburgh communications are much better now,so just as easy to use Holyrood for all business.Try and see this as progress change is needed for progress stagnating in Westminster is not good for all of the UK.The chat about the EU is also not well informed,for starters Scotland is already a member of the EU,not hard to understand! If the UK represents the component countries of the UK and signs all treaties and agrements on behalf of all of us then we are members,unless of course Scotland’s position in the United Kingdom is not that of a partner then that is where questions must be answered.Of course maybe England ,Wales and Northern Ireland wont be members after the referendum on Europe takes place in 2017,because most of England wants out.Would that be fair on the rest of the UK that wants to remain in the EU?

  • Daniel Maris

    You’ve just woken up to that prospect Massie? Told you that ages ago.

  • Augustus

    Striking distance of victory? Or own goal?

  • almondaxles

    Why would England want to stop its mad wife in the attic setting fire to her house and jumping off the roof?

    • Michele Keighley

      Nice analogy there – The Brontes would be proud!!

  • JonBW

    Why should the English support the Union? Since devolution it’s competely undemocratic. If you want to identify as ‘British’ you can do so without a constitutional connection.

    I hope the Scots vote ‘Yes’ and we can become friendly, independent neighbours.

    • Doggie Roussel

      An excellent and rational viewpoint.

  • gram parsons

    save the union

  • David Alexander

    Btw the Spanish have said they will not interfere with Scotland re. The EU. Sterling will be the joint currency. Rumpuk benefits from £100 billion in Scottish exports. Given the worst balance of trade deficit in 24 years this is not something rumpus can afford to ignore. And us? We have 100 years of oil with existing technology, 150 years with advanced technology – it’s what it’s all about, and it’s something that Westminster has been caught lying about. Game over

    • Eddie

      No, Sterling will NOT be the joint currency. England and Wales will not let you – their people have subsidised Scotland enough, and will not continue to do so (in fact, a huge rebate would be due). Do you seriously think it right and fair that the currency of England and Wales to be affected by the tinpot socialism of Salmond-land? Have your own damn currency and F off – stand on your own too feet.

      You want out, then you are OUT – we want our jobs and investment back, And Sterling is ours alone. You cannot use our money. You cannot call us when your fuhrer Salmond fugs up the economy either. In no way will Scotland ever be like a Scandinavian country – Albania maybe. The nature of the people guarantees it.

      Scotland can have a ‘Scottish Sterling’ which could be called anything and which would devalue by 20% immediately, like the Slovak crown.

      • Bob Waugh

        Actually, there is no power in the world can stop Scots using Pounds sterling (or for that matter Euros or Dollars) for transactions within Scotland. For cross national-transactions these would also be acceptable.
        It is just that having a currency pact is best for all concerned – during a transition phase at least. If Scotland is being paid large amounts of money in Sterling for oil and gas sales, do you seriously imagine that would not affect the status of sterling on the currency markets? Would you really want to take that risk for the sake of a Big Sulk?

        • Eddie

          The Big Sulk has been Scotland’s – for decades it has had more public funding than England or Wales, and yet the Scots still moan! They’re like scousers, with worse food.

          You can use shells, or buckfast bottle caps, or haggis toenails in your failed independent state. Or some sort of Scottish Sterling which will instantly devalue by 20% like the Slovak crown did after Czechoslovakia split. True, dollars and DMs were used as currency across Central Europe too – and the hard currency of Sterling may still be used in Scotland when your own currency devalues. Lots of money will leave Scotland and lots of businesses will relocate over the border too. Can you not see that, laddie?

          But we in Wales and England will not let you keep Sterling, keep all the benefits of the union, if you go it alone – that is the fudge that oily snipe Salmond is selling obedient ovine Scots.
          That is the BIG LIE that the Scots have to realise. If you go it alone you LOSE Sterling and you LOSE public funding from your English sugar daddy and you LOSE EU membership and you will have to repay the English/Welsh trillions too.

          • scotcanadien

            The English: normal weekend behaviour in English town centres throughout the land is to drink copious amounts of cheap cider, get drunk, exit pub at closing time bellowing like a forlorn bullock (no balls), fall down and roll around in the vomit filled gutters, trying to fight and copulate with each
            other no matter which sex but preferably the same.
            And they have exported this behaviour to the Spanish Costas, the Greek Islands and poor Eastern European Capitals The English should be confined to England.

            How can you tell an English family on the Spanish Costas. Easy! The man is totally bald and the woman is a dyed
            blonde turning ginger hair, both are short and fat, red and
            sunburnt, covered in tattoos and whining as they waddle along. The children are small fat copies whining and mewling behind them and they are ALL eating F and C with their fingers straight from the paper. If you’re
            downwind you can smell them 100 yards away. That’s why they are called Mingers from Stinkland.

            And there is an old saying which is very true: “meet an asshole in the morning you met an asshole, meet assholes
            all day then you’re in England.”

          • Doggie Roussel

            Sounds like Quebec to me… obviously it’s been a long time since you were in some of the less salubrious slums of Glasgow…. God, you do sound the most vile sort of reptile !

          • Eddie

            Now now – you’re just nostalgic for a night on the tiles in Glasgow, aren’t you?
            The English do have a lower class – a chav class – but so does everywhere: including Canada. And Scotland!

          • scotcanadien

            But no country has a lower class as low as England’s.

          • Eddie

            Well, we did let in loads of Pakistanis, it’s true. And now we have a gypsy curse as hundreds of thousands of these East Europeans come here and pollute our already ethno-mess festering crime-ridden riot-bound cities.

            But then, Canada has inbred white trash aplenty. Been there, seen these creatures in their natural habitat. Make US trailer trash look classy, I must say.

          • Doggie Roussel

            scotcanadien, you are without exception the least classy person to have polluted these blogs !

  • GenJackRipper

    This article dosen’t want to mention the elephant in the room. Just look at the start;

    “A century ago, with Britain in peril, Lord Kitchener’s stern countenance
    demanded that every stout-hearted Briton do their bit for King and
    Country. ‘Your country needs you’ rallied hundreds of thousands to khaki
    and the Kaiser’s War.”

    Back then, Britain was british. Today there is disastrous policy, most major cities are turning into a third world country. Mention that you want to preserve Britain and you’re locked up.

    So what are the scots supposed to feel biritsh about? A future black James Bond?
    Come on…

    I hope the scots say’s no (partly because Scotland will be another member of the EU pyramide scheme Barroso has going on), but if you want people to feel british, then restore Britain.

  • CortUK

    Because we really don’t give a toss.

  • CortUK

    Incidentally, you may ask yourself how the negotiations between Scotland and the UK will go after a yes vote. Allow me to describe:

    1. The UK and Scottish government negotiators will sit down in Edinburgh to discuss terms.
    2. The UK government will give Scotland everything she asks for.
    3. Then ask if she wants anything else.

  • Guest

    To be fair.. us down south don’t give a toss

  • Sam

    To be fair.. us down south don’t give a toss..

    Scotland is only 8% of the population.
    Oil revenues make up just 2% of the UK revenue

    They might do us a favour and force Westminster to give up Trident saving the English taxpayer a lot.

    The Union Flag will remain the same. Scotland does not own the colour Blue.

    I wish the referendum was tomorrow, we’re bored of hearing about it

    • scotcanadien

      So why are you here putting up long winded posts about it?

      • Eddie

        So why is an ignoramus Canadian like you posting here?
        Independence to Quebec? For the Inuit? More of a case than the Scots, silly.

  • scotcanadien

    “Moreover, the unionist alliance allows the SNP to argue that there is no
    functional difference between the Labour and Conservative parties. Only
    the SNP will stand up for Scotland’s interests by putting Scotland
    first.”

    The SNP doesn’t need to argue that is the case but are able to show very clearly that it is true. The Labour Party during the last 40 years has not stood up for Scotland. A country as rich as Scotland has been with so many poor should never have been allowed to happen.

    • Eddie

      The Labour Party during the last 40 years has not stood up for Scotland.’
      UTTER nonsense. Scotland has got far TOO much from state subsidy. The people who have been cheated are the English – who have suffered from less public spending so Scotland can get its bribes.

      Ever heard of the Barnett Formula, eh?

      Scots Nationalists remind me of spoilt silly little children – blaming mummy and daddy whenever anything hurts, but claiming the credit when anything goes right. Pathetic, actually. And a sign of deep political immaturity.

      An independent Scotland would get poorer and poorer. But hey, you can get Alec Salmond to cook his bagpipes when you run out of food (England and Wales will want repaying, and no, Scotland , you can’t have Sterling.)

      • scotcanadien

        The Barnett formula is merely a means of repaying Scotland some of the excess revenue it sends to England. FFS don’t you pricks ever read anything about UK economics. Go and read this week’s FT if your capable of understanding what’s written there. You will find the proof of what I am saying there. Scotland has been subsidising you cheap bastards in England for the last 40 years: and you don’t even have the grace to be thankful.

        • Doggie Roussel

          The proof of the pudding will be established next September… when, hopefully we will ride of the Scottish yoke… but I’m not holding my breath… The Scots are too venal to risk losing all the Westminster subsidies.

          • scotcanadien

            Jesus that is a JOKE. The English are reknowned as the most venal race on the planet. They don’t have pockets in their trousers because their hands are always in someone elses’. And in the word association game the standard answer for the word ENGLISH = CHEAPSKATE,

          • Doggie Roussel

            Or even renowned perhaps… or are you writing a new Scotch dictionary to celebrate independence ?

        • Eddie

          Utter fiction, Oh racist Canadian white trash person. Can’t you go are skin an eskimo or something like you used to do? Maybe you’ll be good at that – and racism is always best when kept at home, methinks.

          Scotland gets direct subsidy from the Barnett Formula – which was introduced to bribe the Scots to stay in the UK. Added to this, Scots get loads of state-subsidised jobs (the passport offices are in Scotland, as were the student loans, as are very many UK defence jobs). Take away that and really, Scotland would be running at a huge loss – just listen to what financial experts say. The CANADIAN head of the Bank of England knows the score – Scotland would lose Sterling and be in serious trouble with independence.

          Plus, England bailed out the Royal Bank of Scotland to the tune of millions (jingoistic Scots may think they have their own currency now because they have their own pictures on Scottish bank notes BUT in reality those notes are not even legal tender in Scotland! It’s just monopoly money – all fake fake fake – a Potemkin village which some deluded Scots, probably after a lifetime bingeing on buckfast, think is real. Brigadoom Baw-lox baby!

          • scotcanadien

            Just go and READ and TRY TO UNDERSTAND the 10 or so articles in the FT all this week. It is not biased yet says Scotland contributes to England’s costs and white elephants and has ben doing so for the last 40 years. It also says Scotland will be in top ten for wealth in EU.
            And people like you should stop drinking your cheap cider and pumping drugs into yourself all day so you can believe the delusions which float about in what passes for your mind. Get your head out of your ass and come back to the real world.

  • scotcanadien

    “Salmond also benefits from the fact that most unionists are reluctant to
    pursue a scorched earth campaign based wholly upon the proposition that
    Scotland is too weak, too small, too poor to survive as an independent
    country.”

    They don’t do it because they can’t. They have tried, but have been sent off with their tail between their legs when the facts about Scotland’s inherent wealth have been published. The series of articles about Scottish Independence in the FT this week has shown that Scotland would be an extremely rich country. (Perhaps you don’t read the FT?) Also, people in Scotland are now well aware that such claims by Project Fear are, to be impolite .. bullshit.

    • Doggie Roussel

      To quote Cromwell, Go in the name of God, go…

      Cromwell had effective methods when dealing with Celtic trash.

      • James Hedman

        Yes, he murdered them.

        • Eddie

          Cromwell killed Catholics who fought us, but he saved the Jews…
          Swings n roundabouts, mate.
          Let’s see who the Scottish killed, shall we? First off, the Scots were Irish immigrants into the land of Picts. And these kingdoms fought each other for centuries and the despotic chiefs oppressed the people. Later, oppressive upper class landowners from Scotland fought battles with their equivalents from England, and each used mercenary armies with a minority of Scots and English soldiers (they were mostly French and German).
          Braveheart has a lot to answer for… There are more facts in Star Trek.

          • Doggie Roussel

            Faintheart by Charles Jennings… as good a laugh as I’ve had in ages… beautifully encapsulates the Scots and Scotland… absolutely hilarious.

      • scotcanadien

        And Scots had ways of cutting the balls off English Minger scum. Too bad you were allowed to breed like rabbits.

        • Doggie Roussel

          The Scottish are usually too inebriated to procreate !

          • scotcanadien

            See my earlier post re the English, drinking, vomiting, gutters, town centres, TRYING to copulate, same sex preferred, et al

          • Eddie

            I thought that was Toronto’s mayor?

          • Eric McLean

            Nonsense… even after a bottle of whisky

        • Michele Keighley

          You disgust me

  • scotcanadien

    “Insulting the electorate’s ability to run its own affairs would
    be a pitiful, demeaning strategy. But this concedes that independence
    is feasible, and shifts the question to whether it is desirable. ‘We
    could but shouldn’t’ is a harder case to make than ‘We can’t and
    mustn’t’.”

    They wouldn’t dare. It would make a YES vote certain. Particularly when it is clearly obvious to all and sundry in Scotland, the UK, and even the EU, that the Scottish Government is FAR more competent than that at Westminster.

    The choice for Scots is very simple. Do you want to remain in a class ridden, stagnant and decaying UK, whether Labour or Tories are in power, and where all the wealth is taken by the fat cats and establishment cronies in London? Or, do you want to be in a forward looking new, young country, and help to shape an exciting new future? I know where I would want to be.

    • jemblue

      “I know where I would want to be”

      From your username, I’m guessing . . . Canada?

    • Doggie Roussel

      Another Scottish refugee shooting his mouth off !

  • jemblue

    The “No more Tory governments” argument is appealing to left-wing Scots, but paradoxically, the Scottish Tories would probably do a lot better in an independent Scotland than now. Right now Scotland does not have a normal left-right dynamic because of the specter of independence hovering over everything. In an independent Scotland that debate ceases to exist, and then it becomes a standard debate over the size/scope of the Scottish government – with no Westminster scapegoat around, either.

  • jemblue

    At the end of the day, I think the No vote will end up winning. In Quebec, the last-minute deciders mostly went No in both referenda, which makes sense – a voter who is unable to make up his/her mind until the last minute is probably going to end up going the safe route and choosing the status quo.

    And like Quebec, this issue will drag on and eventually lead to a second referendum.

  • ShadrachSmith

    YES may well win. I’ve read all five volumes of David Hume’s History of England (the last and best thing he ever wrote). If the rest of the Scots don’t like the English any more than Hume did, it will be YES by a mile. This is a chance for the Scotts to let the English pay the national defense bill all by themselves. And at the risk of sounding racist, that has a certain appeal in Scotland.

  • HughLowden

    “The answer, of course, is a country that rejects as false the choice between two identities. You can be a Highlander, Scottish and British — just as you can be Cornish, English and British”.

    Good article Alex, except for the above. There is one glaring point about identity that has us all here in the first place, which no one seems to highlight:

    There is a fundamental conflict between being Scottish and British; there is not a conflict between being English and British. This is because for the majority of English people and the majority around the world – being English and British are one and the same. Of course it’s easy for English people to have ‘dual’ identities when those two identities are basically clones of each other.

  • Richard020

    Eh wot? No plans t’ hang on t’ the place, go in and beat em ‘alf to death, with an added taste of genocide, as ye did in Ireland for centuries? Wot a bunch of pansies yer ancestors would call ye. Tis a pitiful day when the Israelis know how to run a place properly better n the Brits.

  • sunnydayrider

    Oh Goody! Will we be rid of the whinging gits at last? Fat chance, the Jocks know which side their bread’s buttered.

    • scotcanadien

      Piss off you whining cheapskate Minger. Go and start a riot somewhere.

      • Doggie Roussel

        Obviously fleeing to Canada did nothing to rub the rough edges off you…

  • Golben Amduke

    If Scotland votes yes they will have been assimilated by an emotional appeal to self-determination into handing power to the SNP, which is what this is really about. A bit like lemmings who think a better life lies at the bottom of the cliff. The actual economic effect on Scotland is likely to be marginal to negative, as about 60-80% of its laws will continue to be determined in Brussels and its largest export market (the rest of the Union) will largely determine the terms of trade for Scottish businesses. There’s very little coming from Scotland now that isn’t fully substitutable from other markets or (like oil) globally-priced. And for business units in Scotland that are part of multinationals, they will continue to have the same lack of autonomy as they had before. If the Nationalist government raises the cost of employment beyond marginal levels, the mobility of capital will ensure those businesses relocate just south of the border.
    It is for that reason the SNP manifesto’s claims were limited to fairly marginal items like childcare, and to grand emotional appeals that ultimately will deliver a cathartic kick to the Auld Enemy but little else other than Salmond grinning at them for the next 5 years as he enjoys the trappings of a head of state, wasting taxpayers money opening embassies round the world.

    • Eric McLean

      What utter nonsense… Don’t give up your day job… You will never be an economist or politician

  • undergroundman14

    Time to worry for what remains of the English people after having allowed yourselves to be colonised by the third world.

  • Gregory Mason

    The real question is, why should England care? I’m starting to not give a damn.

  • freethinker14

    Why not let Scotland go independent? If that’s what they want. I really do not see how this is so bad for the rest of the UK.

  • Rupert

    The paradox is how much the Tory party and The Spectator have laid the ground for this, and have made all the logical arguments in favour of Scottish indepence.

    For the last twenty years we have heard the evils of union: the democratic deficit; the problems of laws being made in a foreign city; the differences in “our” legal system and tradition; how “our” political culture and mindset is different; why “one size fits all” is wrong… and so on…

    Can anyone be surprised if the Scots say “you’ve got a point there” ?

    If leaving the Union is a good idea, then lets leave this Union.

    Why is it better to be ruled from 331 miles away (Edinboro-London) than 198 (London-Brusels)?

    If UK, with guaranteed Commissioner, role in EU Council., 9.7% of Parliament and guaranteed veto and “red line” are undemocratic and unacceptable, then why should Scotland be happy with 9.1% of seats and no guarantees, no constitutional role, no veto and no redline?

    Scotland’s philosophy and its history are as much conintental as English(“the aulde alliance”), while its political tradition is far more social democrat / statist than England’s neo-liberal / Anglo-Saxon.

    Try reading a speech by Dan Hennan, Bill Cash or half-a-hundred pieces in this magazine with “we should leave this union”, “we can find our own way”, and replace “EU” with “UK”. Makes just as much sense.

    The only difference is Scotland still proposes to keep the Pound. That’s maybe a mistake: don’t we hear that being in a currency union is bad? That “one size fits all” is impossible for monetary policy? Of course, that is what Scotland suffers from now: just like Greece, they really do need to devalue to help businesses, but can’t because monetary policy is determined hundreds of miles away by a Bank that must worry about too strong a currency and a bubble nearer ho,e. Aftyer all, why should the Bank of England (a telling name!) worry about the moneatry policy in a different country, with its own notes?

    Scotland can then decided for itself if it wants to be in EU or not (please lets ignore the silly scare story that Brussels would forcibly expell someone who wants to be a member). If so, Scotland will have both more autonomy and more power than today. As a separate country it gets its own MEPs (probably 15, between Bulgaria & Denmark) which gives it more influence than now (6); they’ll get a chance at Commissioner and a role in Council. And their own veto, separate from rump UK.

    And, of course, domestically they have autonomy that they don’t have now.

    I don’t know if it has occurred to him, but Alex Salmond needs to raise a toast to Lord Lawson, Bill Cash, Rupert Murdoch, Douglas Carswell, Dan Hannen et al.

    It is they have have for so long, so powerfully, have argued the intellectual case for him: leaving the Union is a good idea, independence is the best way, pooled sovereignty means no sovereignty.

    What an irony that the Scots paid attention.

    • allymax bruce

      Rupert, iScotland being in a Currency Zone with rUK is a good idea; iScotland gets an easy, comfortable & seamless transition to its own currency if that need arises. Plus, we get all the kudos of being backed-up by City of London until we need to institute our own currency.

      • CameronB

        I’m not terribly confident about tying Scotland’s future to the City, but I think an independent currency backed by oil, might be a little strong during the transition period. It isn’t the issue at question though. Not yet.

        Vote Yes, then Scots can decide what is best for Scotland.

  • Alb Einstein

    As an Englishman I think it’s entirely a questions for Scots people to answer.

    My guess is that both countries will be better off with the Scotts having independence for the same reasons that we’ll be better off out of the EU. The less accountable your politicians are to the people, the more corrupt/useless they become.

    The one worry is the antagonism that will result when the independence deal is negotiated; one side will feel they’ve been unfairly treated – but on the plus side, their parliament will then be fully accountable, so the people can give the politicians a jolly good kicking.

    • CameronB

      As the leader of Labour’s north Britain branch, Joanna Lamont recently suggested that supporters of an independent Scotland were effectively a virus.

      I think someone should contact The Health Protection Agency. It looks like we have a pandemic on our hands.
      http://www.hpa.org.uk/HPAwebHome/

  • http://www.pantanolaw.com/ PantanoLaw.com

    Oh Britain – your problems are so much more serious than this. Your end certainly is at hand, but not because of this. What fools. But don’t worry, the US isn’t far behind.

  • http://www.RestlessBoomers.com/ Restless Boomers

    An independent Scotland will be more than capable of taking care of itself. Britain and the Bank of England are determined to go bankrupt. There is no need for Scotland to jump off the cliff with them.

  • john

    I’m a big fan of Scottish independence and hope it goes through.
    I think the underlying resentment of the British population towards the London elite is a key reason why there isn’t much support for the Unionist camp. London is a foreign country and does fine while the rest of the country muddles along. A fundamental constitutional change is necessary,

    • Doggie Roussel

      Yes, Just as England will then be able to hold on to their money, rather than run soup kitchens for the Scots…

  • scotcanadien

    It appears that the English knuckle draggers on this site haven’t received today’s message from Davy No-Balls. Where’s the lurve? C’mon Wessex Man I’m waiting.

  • http://www.federaleagent86.blogspot.com/ Federale

    You know what the Irish comedian David Allen said about the Scots, they keep the Lord’s Word, and anything else they can get for free. Which explains that their price is the same as Judas’. Well, slightly more than Judas, as at the current price of silver, it would take 25 pieces of silver to equal half an ounce of gold.

  • Herb Borkland

    Thank you for a finely construed article. As an American with both strains of blood in my ancestry, I can only shake my head and hope for what is Best For The West. Viewed from the tiny window-on-the-world which is Front Royal, Virginia, even so, it seems the future, not just of Britain, but of Judeo-Christian culture itself is endangered by a wild new century of global upheavals and realignments.

    • justejudexultionis

      Yes, God help us!

    • Eric McLean

      Are you sure you have both strains? http://www.23andme.com

      • Herb Borkland

        That’s what the folks told me, growing up. Swedish, German, and Irish, basically, but not exclusively. Genealogy is fascinating in its way. Thanks for the link.

        • Eric McLean

          Enjoy… I find it very useful. I am 100% Northern Europe … My wife on the other hand has Asian, Russian, south European and Native American!!!!

          • Herb Borkland

            LOL! And mine is Cuban.We’re lucky guys!

  • TruthBeatsLies

    As Scotland is still in effective geographic control of its North Sea Oil & Gas fields – Scots should vote “Yes” in September and immediately invite the Falkland Islanders to vote for long-distance unity with an independent Scotland and pool their energy resources…!

    Then, together, they can develop into one of those delightfully small but very, very rich non-aligned nations like Switzerland and Norway… soon to be the envy of those stuck in massively overpopulated and broken rat-races – like England, for example – in the current UK…!

  • Eddie

    It seems to be that romantic dewy-eyed Scots with no grasp of reality are supporting the YES camp, because they think if they vote for the SNP (and really that is howthe vote is being interpreted by many) then they can live in some socialist utopia, with no work, money on trees, free icecream etc.
    This is how the Scottish Nasty Party is selling the choice: either vote NO in which case you are a traitor who supports English upper class landowners; or you vote YES because you support the working class hero Salmond and the ‘everyman’ of an honest John Scotsman. The only time I see such obsessive hero-worshipping absurdity is amongst Mo-worshipping Muslims.
    In fact, Scotland has plenty of its own upper class landlords and always had them too, Most historic battles portrayed by pity party nationalists as England versus Scotland were in fact ONE upper class oppressive landowner with a mercenary army made up mostly of those from mainland Europe VERSUS another! The people of Scotland AND England got screwed the same way over the centuries.
    But this is not a choice between having a Tory landowner class or a working class Scots hero. It is about destroying a union that was and is of benefit to Scotland and England/Wales.
    And the way the SNP – the Scottish Nasty Party – is behaving, with verbal and physical attacks on anyone in some areas of Scotland who supports the STRONGER TOGETHER campaign is disgraceful, and does not auger well for the future of Scotland if its population is dim and shortsighted enough to vote YES. The SNP are bigots and racists. Sad really, but they are no different from any English bigots and racists.

    • DougDaniel

      “Sad really, but they are no different from any English bigots and racists.”

      Presumably you’re including yourself there, aye? You’ve posted some of the most anti-Scottish bigotry on this article, and that’s saying something considering some of the right-wing middle England wingnuts that post here.

  • TruthBeatsLies

    Most of those on here pouring scorn on Scotland, and on Scots wishing to leave the UK union, must surely be equally opposed to the union themselves. I reckon all Scots should abandon the UK as a lost cause, vote “YES!” too, and let the English
    go their own way in September…!!!

  • HughLowden

    There is one glaring point about identity that has us all here in the first place:

    There is a fundamental conflict between being Scottish and British; there is not a conflict between being English and British. This is because for the majority of English people and the majority around the world – being English and British are one and the same. Of course it’s easy for English people to have ‘dual’ identities when those two identities are basically clones of each other.

  • justejudexultionis

    If Scotland votes yes in September, as it probably will, then Margaret Thatcher will be remembered as one of the greatest patriots in Scottish history – no other politician has done the cause of Caledonian nationalism so great a service by her contemptuous, bigoted and small-minded treatment of Scotland, an attitude that she first fostered and that has led us to the verge of a historic YES vote.

    SAOR ALBA

    • Eddie

      Probably will?
      No poll shows that or ever has.
      The prediction from those experts who have correctly predicted every US and UK election since the 80s predict a NO vote. The risk to the Scots is so huge and it will lose so much – as most mature voters know.

      16 and 17 year olds may mostly vote yes – yet their having the vote is discrimination against the English and Welsh 16 and 17 year olds, so may later be ruled unconstitutional. At that age, I was a loonie leftie too. Will Scotland allow it’s economy to be trashed because of the votes of ignorant children? What would Scotland get then? A pubic parliament?

      Some Scots will say YES in polls and then vote NO of course. The SNP (Scottish Nasty Party) has its bullies out intimidating those who support the BETTER TOGETHER campaign. If I were in some parts of Scotland, I would tell people I’d be voting yes, and then vote no.

  • T3M4

    ”‘Yes Scotland’ groups have sprung up in almost every small town in the land.”

    One may have thought that Paul Revere had crossed The Land of Scots!

    Vote Yes.

  • T3M4

    The nationalist campaign might be subtitled ‘Project Renaissance’.

  • T3M4

    Why will an Independent Scottish person lack their ”Britishness”?

    As the land of Great Britain was named after the conquering of the land by William the Bastard who also ruled Brittany…. hence the name Great Britain.

  • Liberty

    Seriously, I can’t get excited about Scotland leaving. The only difference as far as I can see is the loss 41 Labour MPs. That is a definite plus.

  • aurila

    alas the Scottish will never vote to liberate England

  • DaHitman

    Suppose they vote NO, they’ll continue to vote SNP so we’ll be back where we began. Let them go ffs

  • Bob339

    We have noticed. We are silently hoping that this bunch of drunken dole-bangers will leave and stop draining our funds. One thing: Scotland must not be allowed to claim foreign aid!

    • RokkenwithDokken

      I can imagine us giving Scotland a shitload of foreign aid. How else will they fund their welfare bill?

      • Bob339

        How else indeed? Murdoch will not contribute despite his many secret meetings with Salmond.

    • DougDaniel

      We intend to give a bigger share of GDP to foreign aid than the UK currently does. Who knows, maybe some of it can help fund English food banks?

      (P.S. – unemployment is lower in Scotland than in England. Facts are annoying, huh?)

    • Raw England

      “We have noticed. We are silently hoping that this bunch of drunken dole-bangers will leave and stop draining our funds”

      LOL. Exactly.

  • The PrangWizard of England

    I am English and I campaign for a parliament for England, and for those who still don’t understand, the parliament in London is an all UK parliament with Scottish, Welsh and Northern Irish MPs who can vote on England only issues. They have their own parliaments or assemblies where they can look after their issues without interference. It is unjust and undemocratic. I support the English Democrats party.

    I sympathise with the Scottish independence movement. Scots want full recognition of their identity and don’t feel they can achieve it while part of Britain/UK. The same applies in England, we are no more British than are the Scots. We, the English, want our identity back too. We are not the British. We need to get ourselves untangled from the grip of ‘brutishness’. It is impossible to define and people should stop trying.

    I support Scottish independence movement because if they win then Britain and the UK is at an end, maybe then England can be free too. I want the British State and its British institutions off my English back.

  • DrPlokta

    If you can be Cornish, English and British, why does the Spectator not generally agree that you can be Cornish, English, British and European?

    • RokkenwithDokken

      You can extend that, the logical conclusion being a citizen of Planet Earth with a one-world government. But to answer your question, firstly because we don’t to be and secondly the European project seeks to destroy nations whilst the UK seeks to maintain them.

  • Baggiebod

    Who cares! Bye Scotland!
    Next!

  • Slicer

    I don’t think many in England care if Scotland leaves the union or not. In fact Scotland leaving the union sets a course for England freeing itself from the other two tails that wag the dog, Wales and Northern Ireland. England has been bridled with statism many thanks to Scots. Scottish independence is the best thing that could happen to England.

  • Andy mx

    No, Salmond is nowhere near getting a yes vote, there hasn’t been a single Poll where he has come even close.

    • DougDaniel

      Apart from the ones that have, you mean?

      Idiot.

      • Eric McLean

        He is thinking on Pol Pot

  • ButcombeMan

    To answer the question. I think people south of the border have noticed, but are bored by Scottish whingeing

    We do not have a vote so there is nothing much we can do, the Scottish residents will do what they will do.

    If they fall for Wee Eck and his nonsense and go off into an unaffordable socialist Jockistan, more fools them. They will deserve their impoverishment. The brighter ones will get out and, come south. Investment in Scotland will drop, There will be capital flight, both money and people

    All this is absolutely inevitable.

    • renamedrisk

      Let’s call it what it is: many in England are sick of Salmond and everything he represents. If he wins the referendum – good riddance. And taxpayers in England won’t have to keep paying out billions and billions to Scotland every year under the infamous Barnett Formula. That should pay for a few flood prevention schemes and repairs.

    • justejudexultionis

      Your comment is a load of crap but ‘Jockistan’ is highly amusing.

      • ButcombeMan

        I wish it was mine.

        Another used it here first.

        It is very apt of course.

        I was always told, never work in a country with “stan” on the end.

    • DougDaniel

      Actually, if the dissolution of Czechoslovakia is anything to go by, “capital flight” will go towards the part that has a higher GDP per capita. Czech Republic’s GDP per capita in 1993 was 20% higher than Slovakia’s.

      Scotland’s GDP per capita is 18% higher than the UK’s…

      • fluffnik

        We also have an economy based on value added tangibles rather than usury.

  • Simon_in_London

    Scotland has sucked the blood of England for too long. Half our parasitical ruling elite are Scottish – Blair, Brown, Cameron. If they want to stay in the UK they should start paying their own way.

    • renamedrisk

      Pay their own way? This is heresy – why should they do that when the English can pay, for the free university education, free NHS prescriptions, free care for the elderly etc etc etc?

    • DougDaniel

      Ah yes, David Cameron, born in that wee Scottish village called London. Hoots mon, he’s practically a Highlander!

      Oh, and we do pay our own way, numbnuts – we pay about £1,700 more per head to the UK treasury than the UK average. We actually subsidise you.

      • Doggie Roussel

        Er, I think you’ve got that back to front …

      • Raw England

        Wow. Are you drunk? You’ve got that the wrong way around.

        • DougDaniel

          No, I’m using, like, actual figures and stuff. Weird way of doing stuff I know, but there we are. http://www.businessforscotland.co.uk/10-key-economic-facts-that-prove-scotland-will-be-a-wealthy-independent-nation/

          But hey, I’m Scottish, so I’m obviously drunk as well, since that’s all us sweaty Jocks do. Not like you lovely tee-total English folk.

          • Raw England

            Erm, we literally fund you. Heard of the insidious Bartlet Formula? The formula that means you Scots get almost TWICE more money out of us then you should?

            We literally keep Scotland afloat in many other ways.

            It wouldn’t be as much as a problem in normal circumstances, but the fact England has been totally culturally/economically destroyed by 10’s of millions of immigrants makes all other drains that much harder to swallow.

            Good luck on your Independence. We English want you lot cut off. And we want your ministers OUT of English affairs.

          • domhnall dods

            It’s the Barnett formula. Your post assumes that only England pays in to the UK. Wrong. What the Barnett formula does is decide how money is distributed once it is gathered in. London is the biggest recipient but that is seldom reported. But if you only look at how money is distributed you get half the picture. Scots per head according to government figures, contribute £1700 per head more in tax than the average for England. We get some but not all of the money we contribute back by way of Barnett.

            This of it this way, a young professional still living at home with his/her parents, earns good money, more than the parents do. They pool all their earnings in a household budget and the professional gets some but not all of his/her earnings back and mum and dad decide how the rest gets spent. Are mum and dad really subsidising their offspring by giving just some of the earnings back?

          • Raw England

            Still very dubious about your facts and analogies, here, mate. Top SNP propaganda.

          • domhnall dods

            my word, HMRC are now agents of the SNP are they?

            According to them although Scotland has just 8.4% of the UK population, Scotland has on average been responsible for 9.12% of Britain’s tax revenues. That’s 109% of what would be our fair share per head of population. Over the same period, the people of England have on average produced 102% of their share, Northern Ireland 87% and Wales just 73%.

            So have a go at the Northern Irish or the Welsh for not paying their fair share but if you don’t mind, leave us out of it,

          • fluffnik

            Yup, we pay ~£1700/head more in, we get ~£1200/head more out.

          • DougDaniel

            Erm, the “Bartlet” formula? What is that, something to do with The West Wing? If you’re going to try and claim someone is wrong, you should probably have a clue what you’re on about – it’s the BARNETT formula.

            Do you actually have the first clue about how the Barnett Formula works? It looks at spending in England in areas that have been devolved to Scotland, Northern Ireland and Wales, then gives each parliament a share proportionate to their population. So as Scotland has about 10% of the population of England, we get about 10% of whatever is spent on things like education, health and policing in England. If England spends £1 million extra on education, Scotland gets about £100,000 more. If you spend £1 million less, we get about £100,000 less.

            Now, that money comes from the taxes collected throughout the UK – i.e. taxes collected from Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland as well, not just from England. So all the formula is doing is giving us back what we’ve already paid into the treasury. In other words, the Barnett formula isn’t you funding us, literally or otherwise – Scotland literally funds itself.

            Now, you’ve probably heard that Scotland gets £1,200 more per head in public spending than the UK average, but what you won’t have heard (although I did provide a link so you could read it) is that Scotland contributes £1,700 more per head in public revenues than the UK average. In other words, Scotland is being short-changed to the tune of £500 for every person in Scotland. There’s simply no other way of slicing it – we get £500 per head LESS in public spending than we would if we were independent.

            And where is that money going? To the rest of the UK. Ergo, Scotland is funding the UK, not the other way round.

            Now, what was that about us getting “TWICE” more money out of “you” than we should? You have links, yes?

          • Raw England

            I see. But your statistics and facts are all emotion-based.

          • DougDaniel

            No, because then they wouldn’t be facts.

            Come on then, prove them wrong. Use hard data to back your assertions up. I know you can’t, because my figures are correct. Even the FT was quoting them last week. Might as well get used to it, otherwise you’ll be in for a rude awakening when Scotland cuts off the supply of money to London and you have to start living within your means.

          • Raw England

            You are very seriously deluded. Scotland leeches off England; that’s a financial fact.

            And what’s the cancerous tumour called London got to do with it? I’m from the still English North, and we despise the immigrant/far Left cesspit that is London. Unfortunately, though, that rancid cesspit holds all the political power.

            And “….start living within your means”? Do you have ANY idea how badly we’re suffering in poverty and misery? Yet, we still have to fund you lot. Also you, unbelievably, seem to think the grotesque cesspit London represents the rest of England. It doesn’t. At all. Far, far from it.

          • DougDaniel

            “Financial fact”? You’re having an awful lot of trouble finding evidence to back up your “financial fact”. Repeatedly stating old myths doesn’t make something a fact. Scotland gets £1,200 more public spending per head but contributes £1,700 a head more in public revenues. We give the UK treasury £500 extra each. Prove me wrong. Not with assertions, but with numbers.

            Oh, and if you’re from the North, you have my sympathy, but you’re also on even shakier ground accusing other parts of the UK of being subsidised.

          • Raw England

            Thank you for the morsel of former (possibly), but now long and irreversibly gone, brotherhood. Most Spectator-types are from the South, though.

            You know, in some ways, we’re opposing the same thing: London, as it represents the Liberal-fascist, ultra-capitalist, increasingly foreign, undemocratic hard line Tory establishment. But since you Scots don’t yet know the overwhelming damage immigration and multiculturalism causes, you probably see it rather differently.

            I support anything that hurts/breaks up that establishment. Which is partly why I fully support Scottish Independence.

          • Raw England

            Actually, on second thoughts, that brotherhood was never there, was it. You Scots have ALWAYS hated us English, and we English have always seen Scotland as an unwanted addition.

          • DougDaniel

            Put it this way, there’s a reason Scottish Labour unionists talk about solidarity with shopworkers in Liverpool and Manchester, rather than London and Cambridge. We don’t hate the English, we’re just tired of being run from a parliament that is completely out of touch with us. You guys are presumably the same. Maybe Scottish independence can kick start democratic reform in England. And if not, the north is welcome to look towards Edinburgh instead of London for opportunities. I believe some councils already are.

          • Raw England

            We’d prefer to reclaim our capital city, to be honest. Or move capital status to the North.

            That’s mainly what I’d ask you to consider, though: the fact that London is, literally, a foreign, non-White majority; we do not see London as an English – or even British – city. Its a nation-state, almost; a place being cannibalised by poor and rich immigrant scavangers, and presided over, for now, by far-Left politicians. London is also now mainly physically owned by foreign investors. Its ideology, culture and people are not, in any way, representative of (what remains of) native England.

            In any event, Scotland MUST say YES to Independence. If you say NO, then the decomposed, toxic, soiled corpse of what used to be Britain will continue to limp on like a diseased, deformed dog.

          • mrmchoohaa

            You seem to be the only one who cares about ethnicity.

            “Before immigration, multiculturalism and leftist rulers came along,
            Britain was beautiful, rich, safe, strong, wealthy, relatively free and
            happy.”

            This referendum is 100% about governance. Your desperate need to cling to hyperbole is proof that you’ve lost your way. I do hope you’ll realise how intrinsically neighbourly the Isles are. There’s no need for tribalism and hatred. Love thy neighbour as thyself.

          • fluffnik

            Indeed.

            Many people are “Scots by formation” though they were born in every corner of the world…

          • mrmchoohaa

            “Scotland leeches off England; that’s a financial fact” ooh..straight out of an economics text, I see. I exhale happily, knowing your desperate cries of hatred are a mirror of your fear.

          • Eric McLean
          • mrmchoohaa

            Viewing this debate from overseas. Doug is absolutely correct. You’re wrong. You can bluster and bitch and complain and essentially be a racist all you want, but facts are facts. Deal.

          • Eric McLean

            That’s the best you can do??

            You should be supportive… all the monies goes into London.

            Where are you from?

            http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/feb/10/public-money-private-wealth-london-north-v-south

          • Eric McLean

            Elderado or Lanliq?

  • Jeremy Hanmer

    The last man, (Edward II)who lost to the Scots either died a very nasty death or had to live as a beggar travelling around Europe. His friend (an ancestor of Princess Diane) was castrated publicly 60 feet in the air in Hereford square. Please note Prime Minister.

  • Grendal55

    The reason nobody in England (does the writer mean “the rest of the UK?”) notices this issue is because the English tend not to notice or care about the Scots. If hundreds of thousands of English people begin love-bombing us now, when they think we are about to vote in favour of independence, we will know they are being calculating and insincere. Scots only want to govern themselves, surely a modest and unsurprising ambition for any nation. We can still cheer Jessica Ennis when we’re independent after all.

    • Raw England

      Sport doesn’t even come into the equation, Grendel. And certainly not athletics. And anyway, an immigrant such as Ennis is hardly appropriate.

      But yes, we English agree: Please vote for Independence. Then we English will be in a stronger position to reclaim our nation.

      • Grendal55

        I only mentioned Jessica because the article mentions her, Raw England. Is she an immigrant? Well, we’re all descended from immigrants on these islands. And, if you want us to have our independence would you please stop voting for politicians who resort to every lying, underhand, conniving tactic to keep us in the union. We’re doing our best at this end!

        • Raw England

          Will do, mate.

  • wchancellor

    Thinking on the Scotland Question may shift in the weeks ahead. Switzerland’s cote today to reject the Confederation’s governing council’s advice and vote with the Ukip equivalnt for a sharp rethink on immigration and the reimposition of quotas on EU migrants is cause for celebration amongst the Sovereign Scotland leadership and ranks. How the EU and the Confederation manage renegotiations of Shengen and countless other treaties and clauses in the days and weeks ahead will perhaps determine the margins of the close September vote.

    Going to an extreme and still improbable scenario, wherein the EU begins to break apart, i.e., Dutch, French, Swedish and Austrian voters opposed to (the legally dubious) Lisbon II Federalisation signal sufficient weight for these governments to begin to pull away from Brussels, Scot voters will be encouraged to join the sovereign game. If the EU is put into crisis, then Scotland will have every incentive to stay in the United Kingdom.

    The other scenario that voters are analysing is defined by the pitches of the Oil Industry. If talk of reducing Scottish operations to foreign subsidiaries advances, many Scots may shy away as summer rolls in over the Highlands.

  • Raw England

    Nobody cares (no, really, we English literally don’t care). Its time for a radical change. We DON’T want Scottish ministers having power in English affairs. Also, the Scottish WANT mass immigration and multiculturalism, which makes the union even MORE toxic since we English want them GONE, reversed, dismantled and/or deported.

    We English despise London as well. INTENSELY. Our former great capital city is now a foreign shithole, with a few white, extreme Left dinosaurs. We view London as a tumour. A particularly grotesque, foreign tumor at that.

    But back to the issue – BYE SCOTLAND. Good riddance.

    • Eric McLean

      Nobody cares (no, really, we English literally don’t care). THATS GOOD, YOU SHOULDNT

      Its time for a radical change. EXCELLENT, ABOUT TIME

      We DON’T want Leftie Scottish ministers having power in English affairs – AT ALL. GREAT

      Also, the Scottish WANT mass immigration and multiculturalism NO WE DONT

      which makes the union even MORE toxic since we English want these things GONE, reversed, dismantled and/or deported. VOTE UKIP

      We also, clearly, don’t want to carry on funding Scotland YOU DONT

      ; we’re already funding millions of foreigners in our own country. NO COMMENT

      We English despise London as well, by the way. INTENSELY. Our former great capital city is now a foreign shithole, with a few white, extreme Left dinosaurs. We view London as a tumour. A particularly grotesque, foreign tumor at that. ABSOLUTELY ACCURATE

      But back to the issue – BYE SCOTLAND. Good riddance. TOO BAD YOU BLAME SCOTLAND

      Before immigration, multiculturalism and leftist rulers came along, Britain was beautiful, rich, safe, strong, wealthy, relatively free and happy. Its obviously now the exact opposite, and that’s putting it mildly.

      Time for radical change. GOOD

      • Raw England

        K. We understand each other.

  • Grendal55

    Scotland contributes 9.9% of the Uk tax-take but receives bak only 9.3% of its spending. Scotland is a net contributor to the UK’s economy and is subsidied by nobody. The hateful posts by British unionists on this thread illustrates why Scotland should vote Yes in September.

    • th43

      It’s a no brainer, go for it!

  • th43

    I, like most in England have noticed and we’re supporting the Yes campaign

    Hopefully, the events at Murrayfield have contributed a few more votes to the Yes campaign

  • Prester John

    And all this before the dirty tricks start. The resurrection of “No vote is a ‘no’ vote” – that played out well for the nationalists in the devolution referendum will be one. I knew a lot of people (over 15) who fell for that little ploy and they have said (apocryphal I know) that they had other friends who did too. I firmly believe that the narrow victory was due to that.

  • marksheasby

    Interesting debate, a bit feisty below, not very illuminating though.

    I’m surprised the question of independence has the legs it has right now. Separation in this day and age is a backward step. I for one would be saddened greatly by the break up of the Union but it’s an emotional response, not a logical one.

    The absence of 59 Scottish MPs in parliament may result in a governing body more representative of the wishes of people in England & Wales. So, in representational terms it may be better for all of us?

    As for the economic arguments, it’s very hard to distill real information out of the propaganda from both sides. If oil revenues create a serious economic case for Scotland then good for them. But it’s an irrelevance in the real debate on independence. OK, being able to afford to be independent is important, but it’s not connected to the principle.

    The arguments for independence seem to me to be based on hatred and envy. As an Englishman brought up to believe in the Union, to support each part of the Union naturally and without equivocation it’s a depressing debate. It’s wearying too. I’m sick of the continual stream of invective pouring south over the border. I now wonder what it is we are supporting and why we should be bothered. Perhaps that’s the mood in the county? Perhaps that’s why the Unionist campaign has so little passion. Maybe it’s just time to say “good by and good luck”.

  • Eric McLean

    Mr Massie apart from it sounding as if you’re panicking… your article made me laugh.
    Here are a few points you appear not to appreciate.

    1. Many people who vote YES will be keeping their British passport. From them, independence is a political and economic necessity.

    2. The reason that YES is doing so well and that its a one way door, no-to-yes, is not simply down to wily old Alex Salmond. Rather it’s that the business case for YES is far superior (cost, benefits, risk, reward, opportunity and very few disadvantages) Balance this against Scotland’s future in the UK, another thirty years of neglected infrastructure?

    3. The smear, sneer and fear campaign is the worst way for Westminster governments to treat 10% of their citizens. It will never be forgotten. In any case a ‘NO’ will be a pyrrhic victory. Westminster are currently breaking Britain with their blitzkrieg propaganda strategy.

    4. Imagine the T-shirts after the vote, whatever the result, they might read ‘I voted YES’ and underneath perhaps, ‘No Shame’

    5. Salmond talks about other unions continuing, because pragmatically and realistically, given that we are all interdependent on these small islands, many things will stay the same. Of course your Unionist argument is ‘why bother then?’ neglecting the fact that the biggest interest for the majority of YES voters, is to get a government they voted for.

    “…government of the people, by the people, for the people…’ totally accessible at Holyrood.

    As oppose to what we currently have at Westminster

    ‘…government of the people, by the elite, for London, SE, the Bankers and the MPs…’

    You are absolutely correct to panic, by the way. The big independence cat is out of the bag, and its not going to go back in easily. It would make more sense for Westminster to work towards a partnership… rather than try too browbeat the residents of Scotland.

    But then what does one expect, we have a PM who is neither statesman or leader.

    • manonthebus

      Well, it’s true that at the moment the Scots have benefits which are not available to the rest of the UK. After independence, these will have to be paid for from Scotland’s own resources. When the Scots understand how much of their economy has to be spent on welfare, they may wonder where the money is to come from. North Sea Oil and Gas taxes only go so far. The rest will come from income tax and borrowing, which will then be entirely the responsibility of Scotland and its own taxpayers.

      • Eric McLean

        What do Westminster, Whitehall, MOD AND a shoe-shop with a brothel above it, have in common?

        Both have a lot of F&&&&&G Overhead.

        An Independent Scotland will be considerably better off.

  • Eric McLean

    And we talk about the break up of the UK as if its some great disaster. It is less than 10% of the population. Why is it such a big deal? Perhaps because some people connected into the British establishment forget that Scotland is a country in her own right?

  • Chris Hobson

    why worry , get shut of them.

  • Mr. Sequel

    Any way you cut it, there’s no major difference between today’s liberals and their communist ancestors.

  • Terry Field

    Yippeee!

    The Scots, their shortbread, their stuffed meat belly food, their socialist MPs, their excess of consonants, their hard – liquor, their oat-cakes and their porridge are about to sod off.

    O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!’ He chortled in his joy

    • Eric McLean

      You forgot our bagpipes, Oil and renewable energy!

      • Terry Field

        Indeed!
        Take it all!
        Leave with all of it!
        In the name of God GO!!!!!

        • Eric McLean

          Terry, what you may fail to realise is that an independent Scotland will not be going too far.
          There will be no moats from berwick to the tweed. Most Scots will carry British passports and the re will be free exchange of people as well as goods and services.
          Realistically the biggest change will be that the residents of Scotland get their own government and economic levers in their hands.
          Your fellow countrymen in the meanwhile are weakening up to the corruption that is Westminster.
          It’s funny that people like you are desperate to see Scotland go and Power hoarding Westminster is determined to keep the empire together.

          Out of curiosity, why are you so angry and strident?

          • Terry Field

            I am NOT ANGRY AND STRIDENT I AM RELAXED!!!!!!!****!!!!!!
            I think you may find we cut a channel between the two countries – complete with arc lights and trained wolves to stop yon inmates from escaping – a new MacShengan!!!! – and the best outcome for us would be the removal of the phalanx of socialist Scots MPs who prop up the poisonous philosophy in England. I look forward to England finding the politics that suits its mind – AND I want to put the bloody clocks forward an hour that would have happened decades ago if you kiltie types had gone to fry your own marsbars in yon own batter!!!!!

          • Eric McLean

            Excellent. We will invite you to this years Edinburgh fringe… you funny man.

          • Terry Field

            FRINGE!!!!!!
            I’m bl**dy MAINSTREAM

          • Eric McLean

            You gotta start somewhere… even with your immense comic talent.

          • fluffnik

            I’ll be junking my British passport at the first opportunity, even though it’ll be less than a year old on independence day.

          • Sean McDougall

            And that’s fair enough. Each has his own choice. All I was trying to explain is that despite all the ridiculous scare stories, the only two things that really change are Scotland gets recognition as a new country and gets control of her government and finances.
            An equal status on these islands.

            With regards to passports, borders, English. / Scottish residency and working… There is flexibility. If some one wishes to ‘stay British’ they can, dual passports also no problem, Scottish passport only, no problem.

        • Raw England

          LOL. Exactly.

    • shona long

      porridge is good for you.

    • scotcanadien

      The English: their deep fried chip butties, their cheesy chips, their turds in cum (jellied eels) their snot in vinegar (cockles and winkles), their saveloys, their fascist Tory and Ukip politicians, their cheap scrumpy, their honking donkey bray in SE England and their quack, quack, quack in the North.
      If you can’t see anyone but you can smell fish’n chips and vinegar, an Englishman is within 100 m.

      • Terry Field

        Yes – and proud of it! – now bog off with your whiney failed brigadoon-bog-fed socialist hell-hole!

  • wibbling

    I really don’t understand this debate. Scotland is a poor country with no international presence.

    It has no embassies, no treaty recognition. There have ben seemingly endless tosh spoken by Alex Salmond and his gang about ‘keeping the pound’ ‘no debt’, low taxes and endless free money.

    Well, it doesn’t work that way. You cannot trade without treaty. What does Scotland have to trade? Who will pay the bills when there’s a net deficit per capita against tax revenue?

    The simple truth is England keeps Scotland going. Without English money, Scotland cannot survive. So by all means, Scotland. Vote yourselves independence. When the bills come in, and you’ve no currency, no ability to devalue – and, England, free of your drain decideds to raise interest rates what will you do? Leap into teh EU? Well, what was the point of independence?

    By all means, vote to be independent. But do so with your eyes open, not pretending that there’s some field of dreams and permanent sunshine simply by voting for the socialists.

    • Eric McLean

      I can only imagine you are trolling, you are so ill-informed.

      • Golben Amduke

        Eric McL
        Do you actually have anything substantive to say in reply. And in reply to your previous question to me, I have an economics qualification and have advised on competition law aspects of microeconomics for about 12 years.

        • Eric McLean

          Economics qualification? Really? It’s certainly not helping your argument one bit. You quote zero facts, you talk about lemmings and dictatorships and you wax lyrically about Scots spending English money,…. Whatever you paid for whatever ‘qualification’ …. You know what… Ask for your money back.

          • Golben Amduke

            Play the man not the ball – you are probably a CyberNat or something similar.

            What I am arguing is actually how a rather basic economic theory works, a theory which has a lot of empirical evidence to support it. I’m also pointing out a basic flaw in salmond’s construction of the Scottish “balance sheet” so to speak.
            I haven’t mentioned any Scottish dictatorship or spending English money, that would be rude and you’re confusing me with another poster.

            And here’s the Scottish Daily Record, published after i posted. They seem to agree with me.

            “In return, Salmond says that if the UK will not enter a currency union, he would not honour Scotland’s share of the national debt.

            Reneging on your primary debt would be a ruinous beginning for a new nation with no track record of borrowing on the money markets.

            No one else would lend except at very high rates.”

            You are obviously very passionate about the issue, and quite rightly. If the Yes campaign had deployed that passion into the substantive arguments instead of insulting the English, insulting people who raise counter-arguments and raising phoney appeals to the emotions we would have had a better debate. Whatever the outcome, some of Scotland’s Yes campaigners will be regarded down South as having made some very unpleasant, fanciful and in come cases borderline racist statements and implications – that is they have stooped when dignity was called for. Pity.

          • Eric McLean

            Please supply links to any of your assertions… Otherwise it’s meaningless waffle… And you post as Wibbling as well.

          • Golben Amduke

            I can highly recommend Economics for Dummies. I doubt Nicola Sturgeon has read it through.
            I’m not Wibbling.

          • fluffnik

            Scotland has issued *NO* debt, only the UK has issued debt.

            If Scotland is not a successor country it has no liability; it has no debt so cannot default.

            A currency union benefits the rUK more than iScotland.

          • scotcanadien

            He means a CSE in simple Economics from an English sink school.

    • scotcanadien

      Yaaaaaaaawwwwwwnnnnnnnn?

  • manonthebus

    If there is no excitement or apprehension in the rest of the UK about Scotland possibly becoming independent perhaps it is because people do not care one way or the other. They may have more important things to worry about.

    • scotcanadien

      Well good. But why the fuck are you all here moaning and whinging about Scots dumping you?

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Boon-Tee-Tan/1068880297 Boon Tee Tan

    With Scotland’s independence, Great Britain does not exist anymore, so is UK. It may turn out to be a blessing in disguise for England, especially with a bleak economic future.

  • fallguy

    It seems the ‘fear’ campaign is that being run by YES… It is a fear of speaking out against YES as evidenced by the almost defeaning silence…

  • Lee Cooper

    My apologies to the majority of Scots but …..

    Please vote Yes – I am tired hearing the whining from your sad minority.

    Just make me one promise; once “Independent” please ensure they transfer the petty minded, self pitying whine exclusively to their new Masters, the EU.

    After all, having left of your own volition be honest enough to accept that this modern day Darien expedition will be well and truly your own fault.

    • scotcanadien

      God another whinging Englishman. Do you practise in front of a mirror? What’s difference between air raid siren and Englishman? Siren can be turned off.

      • LastmaninEurope

        A siren can be turned off but apparently the mouth of the Scots cannot be disengaged from the English teat.

  • Golben Amduke

    Is Salmond still running that argument about having leverage to keep the pound or he’ll disclaim his share of the UK national debt? For an economist that’s a rather weak position, because he’s just upped his cost of borrowing by threatening default.
    Also he seems to think the pound is an “asset” which is the quid pro quo for accepting these debts. That’s wrong – the asset he may inherit as a quid pro quo for the share of debt is the Scottish tax base.

    Which is really a great example of political bullshit obscuring economic reality. Rather like the Yes campaign.

    • Paul Bethune

      Cost of borrowing will have no adverse effect because it will be offset by the fact Scotland would have a debt ratio of zero. No interest payment on £1.5 trillion of debt. Only interest on money borrowed from now on, which means any figure a Scottish Government borrows, will not have interest repayments like it would have with a proportionate share of UK debt.

      Apparently you believe after independence a UK government would be entitled to keep the “Scottish tax base” as collateral if Scotland takes no debt. I am sure that will work in the UK favour, and the UN will love it.

      Congratulations on the promotion of defying international tax law.

      • Golben Amduke

        I’ll clarify the point. Salmond is trying to keep two assets for the price of one – he’s trying to keep the Scottish tax base and the Bank of England guarantee via a currency Union (a guarantee is an asset when it cancels out a liability). I’m just pointing out that his asset on the other side of the balance sheet is the Scottish tax base, and so his assertion that he should also keep the pound via a currency Union is incorrect and would shame an accountant.

        Anyway, he’s called rUK’s bluff far too early and lost that one. If he wants to maintain this absurd position about not inheriting debt then separation talks will take 15 years and he’ll get rammed on a load of other issues, like defence contracts all of which will migrate south. So it’s all pretty phoney posturing.

        • Paul Bethune

          The Scottish “tax base” i.e the businesses, industry and people of Scotland. I must admit even from the most rabid of unionists, I’ve never seen this be used as a credible threat.

          How do you propose Westminster taxes a foreign country post independence? How do they keep buisnesses and house holds paying tax to HMRC – do they use military intervention, do they use cyber attacks on a new Scottish Revenues and Customs Agency, what do they do to maintain their regine in Scotland.

          Defence contracts, will the MOD control a new Scottish defence budget. Will BAE and Selex refuse to do business with a Scottish government. Will the MOD force a private company like BAE to move its operations, and where are they going to move it to. Your threats are empty, much like Gorgeous George’s rhetoric.

          The UK Government’s timing is ridiculous and clearly designed to push up their flagging poll support. Osborne took 3 questions and refused interviews with the Scottish press – hardly the actions of a man who is confident with his position.

          • Golben Amduke

            Oh dear, I guess I’m not getting through here. I’m not saying this is a threat, I’m saying Salmond is trying a little and not very subtle sleight of hand to grab two assets where he actually should only get one, arithmetically.
            Under the current Union arrangements, the Scottish tax base IS used as part of the faith and credit to back the Union’s legal liability for the UK national debt. If an independent Scotland want a currency union, then they are going to have to agree to a number of measures including restrictions on fiscal policy and credit transfers back to the UK from the Scottish tax base. In other words rather like the current arrangements – doh!
            The fallout from the EU banking crisis shows the negative effects of a currency union without a fiscal and political union, it doesn’t work, and so what Osborne and the Treasury are saying is that they won’t make the same mistake. So they have just shone a light onto the big inconsistency at the heart of the SNP campaign, which is they want independence but dependence. The SNP engaged in completely wishful thinking by asserting that they could have a currency union without resrictions that would impinge severelty on their sovereignty. They pretended that the EU banking crisis didn’t exist. “He who contrls the currency controls the country” – J M Keynes.
            Actually it’s pretty amazing that they didn’t see this coming, and are now twisting in the wind as the cold light of reality has laid bare their shoddy thinking. If I lived in Scotland I would be pretty worried that this lot were to be in charge of my economy.
            It’s just a question of maths, and all the Braveheart in the world won’t wash.

          • Paul Bethune

            Any credibility you had in your argument was completely deflated by your wee Braveheart remark.

            The current arrangements of the Treasury collecting all tax from Scotland and then reimbursing a percentage back in the form of the block grant is nothing like what the proposed currency sharing would be like.

            The tax base i.e anything making money in Scotland is geographical – it sits within the boundaries of Scotland. Things like currency and debt have no geographical location. so your analogy is false.

            If Westminster want a deal on the mutual ownership of UK debt (which they have declared they are responsible for in full) then Westminster will have to negotiate on sharing the mechanisms for managing said debt. The Bank of England owns almost 30% of all UK public debt, it is a nationalised institution and is most definitely owned in part by the people of Scotland.

            You’re also making up stuff now. The Scottish government has always accepted there will compromises to managing the UK public debt and sharing Sterling. Their position is one of cooperation as 2 independent states. The UK governments position is the exact opposite. So maybe start thinking about getting your maths right and drop the silly threats.

          • Golben Amduke

            Oh right, threatening to disclaim their share of the debt is a great start to a co-operative negotiating process. Just check out mortgage rates for Scottish people when they try that on the markets.
            I’m not making it up, I’m just quoting from the Treasury document. If the only reply that the Nats have is that it’s all vested interest stuff, then what are the Nats – objective? Actually what you get back from the Nats is all Braveheart guff – the Scots are being bullied, it’s the nasty English with their Tory toffs leading the Westminster establishment, and screeds of self-pitying victim nonsense.

          • Paul Bethune

            It’s got nothing to do with the English who in my own humble opinion have the worst deal out of all the nations in this union. It has everything to do with breaking the outdated polictical system that harbours and protects privilege and entitlement through generation after generation.

            And saying the Scottish government RESPOSNE to the UK goverments hard ball tactics on currency is a threat is just ridiculous. Lets talk about interest rates. Do you believe 18 months from the date of September 2014 is long enough for an rUK government to implement a fiscal policy that will dampen the inevitable accelerated devaluation of Sterling? For if the UK government refuses to back a Sterling zone, then they will face the devaluation of Sterling due to the loss of over £150 billion worth of transactions in Scotland. It won’t just be my interest rates that will spike, yours and everyone on these islands will face it too.

            So if you want higher interest rates and in effect pay more for less, please do keep up your petty animosity.

          • Golben Amduke

            I think we already know the answer to that. Check out Sterling and UK gilt yields in the markets. Sterling vs the Euro – no brainer. Uk gilt yields? Not a twitch after the Sturgeon/Salmond gaffe yesterday. And that’s with the Treasury already having guaranteed all UK sovereign debt four weeks ago come what may.

          • Paul Bethune

            hahaha yeah approximately 10% of UK economy no longer financining the entirety of UK debt. That will instantly spell higher inflation, it will also mean the interest on servicing the current debt will fly up. But you just keep thinking to yourself everything will be alright.

          • Golben Amduke

            I’ll be happy to let that comment speak for itself.

          • Paul Bethune

            Your comment says nothing. In fact all you have supplied is conjecture sprinkled with anti-Scottish sentiment.

          • Golben Amduke

            And that one!

          • scotcanadien

            Paul Bethune v Golben Amduke
            Score PB won by 10 to nil

          • Golben Amduke

            And that one.

          • fluffnik

            Some stuff goes with the geography, like the oil and the ability to raise taxes against resident people and business.

  • George Purcell

    This storm has been building for a generation–when I lived in Scotland twenty years ago the dream was burning. There hasn’t yet been a compelling argument put forward about how keeping the Union benefits anyone.

    • Golben Amduke

      The Slovak dream burned for a lot longer than that, and they got a wake-up call when capital disappeared from their economy overnight to the Czech Republic. They’re doing much better now but thanks to EU transfer payments.

      • scotcanadien

        Slovakia are now doing better than the UK. Why don’t you do some research before you post dribble which only shows how stupid you are?

        • Golben Amduke

          Is that avatar you’re using an egg on a green background or an empty hole where your contribution should be?

  • bwims

    Only socialists like Massie should worry, because they will lose the Scots Labour MPs and hence their built-in majority in Westminster. You know, the ones who get to vote on the small number “competences” the EU has let us keep, that deal with English affairs, though they are the only ones who get to vote on Scottish affairs…

    I sincerely hope they get what they want, for the simple reason that when Cameron is kicked out of the Tory party in 2015 for losing to Millipede, there will be a good chance that we might return to sense in 2020 with UKIP holding the reins to power.

  • mac giolla bhui

    I think scotland should vote yes for independance as a irishman I have always enjoyed meeting up with scots on trips to britain i recall standing at a bar talking to a english friend and a sottish man asked me what gear I was talking in I said 1st gear and we both laughed its funny how we could talk flat out with out having to change down gears now I believe every nation as her right to self determination and england and wales probaly will become independant again after scotland what good does it benefit a scotish or irish or welsh person to travel to westminister to be out voted by a large english majority when last was there a irish priminister or welsh or scottish now I don t want you thinking i am anti english because in all my travels to england i have been treated very well i bought a lorry of a english man in herodfordshire and he insisted i stay with his daughter and husband instead of a hotel and his wife even bought me a big pack of guiness now if thats not hospitalitly what is sorry for all my stories but hopefully one day ireland will be peacefully united and all of us can achieve whats best for all the children that live on these two beutiful islands I ask you scotish people put the kettle on for a drap of tae have a good think and say yes
    adh mor ort sept 2014
    your friend from ireland

  • scotcanadien

    “They do have one powerful card to play: Britishness. The SNP do not, in fact, want to talk about losing this identity”

    What a pathetic article full of the same bullshit which is causing the Unionists to lose the argument. Scots don’t care about ‘Britishness’. That nonsensical pomp and circumstance, all that flying the Union Jack, and all that hysterical cheering when someone wins an Olympic medal is a sign of a dying country. You’re farting in the wind Massie. For the last few months you’ve been trying to kid everyone that you are Undecided … well now we know where you stand.

  • scotcanadien

    “Salmond also benefits from the fact that most unionists are reluctant to
    pursue a scorched earth campaign based wholly upon the proposition that
    Scotland is too weak, too small, too poor to survive as an independent
    country.”

    That really is so much nonsense. The NO camp has already tried that tack only for it to be shot down in flames as a stupid lie by almost every recognised economic entity on the planet. Do you think we don’t read the Financial Times? Have YOU read the Financial Times? An Indepependent and world wide respected newspaper and no friend of Independence yet it concludes that Scotland would be something like 4th richest country in the EU after Independence. As I said earlier you can’t fart against thunder and Scotland’s resources are thunder.
    That line of attack cannot be followed again because it would fail again. And here was me thinking once that you were reasonable and well informed. How wrong I was. You’re just like the rst of the nincompoops in the MSM actually believing things which are really only your wishes.

  • John Meek

    You can see & hear the panic in Mr Massie here as a Unionist Brit. He refers to “David Cameron” & the “Prime Minister” but our First Minister is always “Salmond”. Mr Massie also fails to recognize or acknowledge that the YES campaign is an Alliance, not just Mr Salmond’s nationalists … but includes Greens & Labour supporters. It is a movement of the Scottish people!! The British status quo he supports has very little support in Scotland

  • HenBroon

    ” Andy Murray draped himself in a Union flag at Wimbledon last year.” Er noo, Andy diplomatically avoided any contact with the Union flag that the BBC placed beside the trophy there is no images any where of Andy draped in the butchers apron at Wimbledon. BBC Unionist fail.

    So just because unionists wish wish and wish again for something to be true it is not. I know for a fact that Andy is a passionate Yes supporter. But the last time he jokingly made reference to nationality in a joke to Tim Henman he was reviled and had comments left on his web site about the Dunblane tragedy. He is a tennis player and a very good one, let’s leave it at that.

    What was hilarious was the indignant spittle flecked babbling that broke out in the unionist MSM after Alex pulled his Saltire from Moiras bag at Wimbledon right behind Daves head. Priceless and hilarious stuff, well done Alex, you have endeared your self to Scotland. Poking the imperialist beast in the eye.

  • Jeanne Tomlin

    No, the UK (or Britain as you rather mendaciously refer to it) is not the country of Shakespeare. Are you really that uneducated? ENGLAND is the country of Shakespeare. England and the UK are not the same thing. If Scotland were treated as an equal in a union, it probably wouldn’t be leaving the union.

  • Andidry

    uKOK right enough, why do you see democracy as a threat Mr Massie.

    Real Scots vote YES.

  • Wang King

    Real Scots vote ‘yes’; timid Scots vote ‘no’ — and doubtless, in time, will fill a coward’s grave. Well said Spectator.

  • Wang King

    Actually I was a YES vote but the recent Daily Mail thing about Scotland not being able to enter Eurovision has made me uncertain. All it needs now is for Coronation street to be banned and that’s me throwing in the towel.

    • justejudexultionis

      The threat of invasion by the three-headed lizardmen of the planet Zargon is what clinched it for me.

      SAOR ALBA

  • disqus_EjgKZ1VUFS

    Seriously,you think its a victory for Salmond ???? When the act of union was signed there was rioting all over Scotland,since that day we have worked for Sept 2014. Thats what you can’t understand,this isn’t about Alex Salmond ,he is just the guy at the head of the SNP ,its not his idea and that why we will win,we have had 300 years to practice for this.

    • Bonkim

      Jacobites take note.

  • Richard McHarg

    Thousands of Yes newspapers going out in every area, every week. We’ll have delivered over 30000 in our town in under 8 weeks, comfortably. This is being replicated across the country! And another two editions to come!

    The on-line debate is being won through sites like Wings Over Scotland, with over 1 million unique visitors, and Business for Scotland, with over 100000 unique visitors.

    In a country of 5.3 million, we are reaching a lot of people.

  • Rob Connell

    Scotland is indeed very nearly at the point where a long-standing difference of political opinion with the rest of the UK might lead to a parliamentary parting of ways. However, please stop trying to portray this as “Alex Salmond” having victory within “his” grasp.

    The crisis, and the opportunity, is a popular one despite the establishment media’s constant attempts to say otherwise and personalise it with one leader and one party. Almost four decades of neo-liberal government in Westminster has caused the people of Scotland to look for a fairer alternative.

    If Scotland wins Independence, it will be a victory for everyone in Scotland outside the ruling elite, and an opportunity to set an example for all of Britain.

    • justejudexultionis

      I completely agree. Hopefully, England will rediscover its radical tradition and fight back against the rentier capitalist society of the south-east of England.

  • John Tierney

    The Independence referendum is, for me, a question of democracy………

    Respective cultures North and South of the border are no longer compatible – this is reflected in the respective voting patterns and in the policy differences that devolution has made possible – The current system is undemocratic for the Scottish people – In order to grow and develop as a society, in the way we want to as Scots, requires independence from the Union, it is unfair to impose political and social ideology on to a people who consistently reject it at the polls – it isn’t an anti English or anti UK thing, it is necessary to allow both cultures to develop and grow in the direction they want to.

    the Scottish people NEED political and economic Independence, we need a Government that accurately reflects the views of the people and we need to take control of what is left of our resources, to invest in and develop, a new industrial base for Scotland ………. Independence will bring with it the opportunity for REAL social change in Scotland in a way that will never be the case if Scotland remains part of the Union

    • justejudexultionis

      It’s not just the cultures north and south of the border that are incompatible, the north of England is now so different economically, politically and culturally from the south that it does effectively constitute a separate country. In fact, the north of England has more in common politically and economically with Scotland than it does with the neoliberal free-for-all of London and the south-east.

      SAOR ALBA

      • John Tierney

        I sympathise with ‘justejudexultionis’ viewpoint – however, Scotland was once an independent country and now,( due to the voting patterns of the Scottish people during the last Scottish elections), we have the chance to detach ourselves from the politics of greed and self advancement at all costs , the politics of ‘shirkers and strivers’ – these values belong in the dark ages and have no place in an enlightened society – We have the chance to build a new politics round equality for all and social justice – this could never be a possibility if Scotland remains within the Union. – maybe we could extend the border to encompass those lost souls North of the border who share our discontentment or maybe they could just relocate and come up and join the party !!

  • Donald59

    How is Scotland’s independence a threat to Britain? It isn’t except the author wants to lay yet another supposed sacred cow on the alter of independence. This article is nothing less than an emotional appeal to remain British, however, the guy writes off Northern Ireland and Wales like they were a poor step children. Britain will still be Britain, and a united kingdom. You want to take St Andrews cross out of the flag, personally I wouldn’t. You want to compare the independence referendum to world war one german threat, I have nothing but contempt for an idea like that. This is a really bad metaphor, how is the expression of democracy similar to the threat of war, (no the outcome is not nearly the same, Britain will still exist and millions wont die) and thats a rhetorical question only a moron would attempt to justify. There is no plausible reason why the Scots wish for self determination is any threat at all to anyone. Surely the wish to express a desire to control your own future is perfectly natural one which all English people currently enjoy but 59 scottish MPs out of 650 cannot secure. And no Devolution is obviously not enough.

  • Terry Field

    Britain has collapsed – continuously – certainly since 1945 – to a point where unity means nothing – I would swap unity for a naturally conservative England to gain a politic that reflects its mind – and god it needs it in the desperate state that 69 years of socialism – except for the short period of the Blessed Margaret – has reduced it to.
    Just HOW bad does it have to get before socialism is burnt out of the mind of the ‘Island race’

  • almondaxles

    Good news if you are against scrounging as a way of life.

  • hacimo

    Please emigrate to america. We need white people who speak english and actually work for a living. It will drive the Chinese students totally insane to have some competition.

  • Hitched

    Though some of the West’s success has been due to its accumulated capital, a greater factor has been the liberty that unleashes its citizens’ ingenuity, knowledge, and courage.

  • Jimbo2010

    Just say Nae!!! We’re Better Together!

  • Kalooni

    I think English apathy can be fairly easily explained by two factors:

    1) English people (by and large) cannot vote on the issue.

    2) English people have probably become either desensitized or genuinely irritated by the consistent anti-English tenor of the Yes campaign and their supporters.

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  • *Innocent Face*

    Its not just the Scottish who would be “Better apart” …

    Lets take this to its logical conclusion…. the English would be much better off without the Scotch, Welsh, Northern Irish and Europeans.

    Scotland; do England a favour and vote for Independence.

  • rjbh

    Scotland is not the first country to be breaking away from the Union, but the City State of London surely is.

  • Roy

    Does England notice anything? The country is sinking under a tide of immigrants with the beginnings of Sharia Law taking place! Does the establishment care? One certainly wouldn’t think so. England has been sold down the river. Who would blame the constituent parts of the UK splintering off to make their own Kingdom when the present woolly brained management can’t seem to grasp who belongs here and who doesn’t.

  • christopher mahoney

    Reminds me of the hysteria over the Quebec plebiscites. Reason always prevails.

  • Ian Walker

    Because we English are constantly told that we don’t have a say in these matters. I suspect most of us don’t care much either way – there are benefits and drawbacks to both outcomes, and we’ll just have to see where we are when we get there.

    Personally, I look forward to the increased amount of work that I’ll get if Scottish-based businesses choose to move to country with a stable economy and a moderate government.

  • peter2108

    If the Scots vote ‘Yes’ in 2014 then the English will vote ‘No’ in 2017

  • JonBW

    We’ve noticed.

    We want the Scots to vote ‘yes’.

    And then we can be friendly, independent neighbours.

  • Joann Roxbury

    Citizens and Patriots: Always keep in mind that the light of liberty is each of us: http://www.amazon.com/dp/B0094KY878

  • Bozeman

    While liberty is compatible with restrictions upon certain actions, liberty is not present where authorization is required more than not.

  • Stacey Bruno

    I never believed in love spells or magic until I met this spell caster once when i went to see my friend in Indian this year on a business summit. I meant a man who’s name is Dr ATILA he is really powerful and could help cast spells to bring back one’s gone, lost, misbehaving lover and magic money spell or spell for a good job or luck spell .I’m now happy & a living testimony cos the man i had wanted to marry left me 5 weeks before our wedding and my life was upside down cos our relationship has been on for 3years. I really loved him, but his mother was against us and he had no good paying job. So when i met this spell caster, i told him what happened and explained the situation of things to him. At first i was undecided,skeptical and doubtful, but i just gave it a try. And in 7 days when i returned to Canada, my boyfriend (now husband) called me by himself and came to me apologizing that everything had been settled with his mom and family and he got a new job interview so we should get married. I didn’t believe it cos the spell caster only asked for my name and my boyfriends name and all i wanted him to do. Well we are happily married now and we are expecting our little kid, and my husband also got the new job and our lives became much better. His email is atilahealinghome@yahoo.com.

  • Victoria james

    I am Victoria, I promise to share this testimony all over the world once my boyfriend return back to me, and today with all due respect i want to thank DR.ATILA for bringing joy and happiness to my relationship and my family. I want to inform you all that there is a spell caster that is real and genuine. I never believed in any of these things until i loosed my boyfriend, I required help until i found a grate spell caster, And he cast a love spell for me, and he assured me that I will get my boyfriend back in two days after the spell has been cast. two days later, my phone rang, and so shockingly, it was my boyfriend who has not called me for past 4 years now, and made an apology for the heart break, and told me that he is ready to be my back bone till the rest of his life with me. DR.ATILA released him up to know how much i loved and wanted him. And opened his eyes to picture how much we have share together. As I`m writing this testimony right now I`m the most happiest girl on earth and me and my boyfriend is living a happy life and our love is now stronger than how it were even before our break up. So that`s why I promised to share my testimony all over the universe.All thanks goes to DR.ATILA for the excessive work that he has done for me. Below is the email address in any situation you are undergoing a heart break, and I assure you that as he has done mine for me, he will definitely help you too. that is his email address atilahealinghome@yahoo.com

  • Andre Edwardo

    asdfhj

  • Andre Edwardo

    Hello to the Entire Public, Hello, my name is Selena Selly i am from Mexico .I came to this site to share the good works of the Spell Caster Dr Bright.I never believed in love,Money spells or magic until i meant this powerful spell caster when i went to Africa in December last year on a business trip. He is really powerful and he can help you cast spells to bring back love one`s gone lost ,misbehaving,lover looking for some one to love you,Money riches,Winning lotto number, bringing back lost your lover, Bring back lost money and magic money spell for a good job,I`m now happy and living testimony because the man i had wanted to marry left me 2 weeks before our wedding day and my life was upside down cos our relationship has been on for years ..I really loved him, but his mother was against us and he had no good paying job . So when i meant this spell caster, i told him what happened and explained the situation of things to him..At first, I was undecided, skeptical and doubtful, but i just gave it a try. And in 5days time when i returned to Texas, my boyfriend, now my husband,Dr Zerzerki ) called me himself and apologized that everything had been settled with his mum and family and he got a new job interview so we should get married and i gave birth to twins that i was cured of HIV ..i didn’t believe it cos the spell caster only asked me for my name and my boyfriends name and all i wanted him to do he did it for me… We are happily married now and we are expecting our little kid,and my husband also got the new job and our lives became much better and we became very rich. In case any one needs the spell caster for some help, Email him on this email address:(drbrightspellcaster@gmail.com) ……hope he helps you out. Hurry now and contact him now via email address:(drbrightspellcaster@gmail.com) .. Thank you very much and i am very happy right now.. Selena Selly

  • https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100004703026255 Anderson Ann

    Am so happy to testify about a great spell caster that helped me when
    all hope was lost for me to unite with my fiance that i love so much. Am
    from Illinois and my name is Catherine Wilson, I had a fairy tale kinda
    love story and everyone around me call me the lucky one for having such
    a sweet love life but even the best love story can still go sour,
    before things went south I tried my best to make things work with
    everything that I can think of but thing still keeps going south.
    breakup is a bitch and dealing with life was difficult and everyone see
    you like an object of pity. I desperately had to do something and that
    was when i was introduced to this spiritual home, I was told once that
    if you need it bad enough you will go for it. i came across many
    spell casters but they promised and nothing came up but an African
    friend who was my neighbor introduced me to Dr Ogunlade and i emailed
    him with his email : ogunladetemple@gmail.com and he replied me so
    kindly and help me get back my lovely relationship that was already gone
    for 4 months. At first his instructions sounded barbaric but I followed
    them and inexplicable results happened within 72hrs, Am so happy and
    all thanks to the GREAT DR. Ogunlade that helped me with his white love
    powers. If you have any kind of problem email him now for help with

    his email :ogunladetemple@gmail.com

    His web site address is http://ogunladespiritualhome.webs.com/

    Phone number: +2348158143200

  • Laura Zamora

    !!! How Dr.Ukaka Save My Broken Heart Of Marriage Today !!!

    My Name is Robert Rivas .I will love to share my testimony to all the people in the forum cos i never thought i will have my girlfriend back and she means so much to me..The girl i want to get marry to left me 4 weeks to our weeding for another man..,When i called her she never picked my calls,She deleted me on her Facebook and she changed her Facebook status from married to Single…when i went to her place of work she told her boss she never want to see me..i lost my job as a result of this cos i cant get myself anymore,my life was upside down and everything did not go smooth with my life…I tried all i could do to have her back to all did not work out until i met a Man when i Travel to Africa to execute some business have been developing some years back..I told him my problem and all have passed through in getting her back and how i lost my job…he told me he gonna help me…i don’t believe that in the first place.but he swore he will help me out and he told me the reason why my girlfriend left me and also told me some hidden secrets.i was amazed when i heard that from him..he said he will cast a spell for me and i will see the results in the next couple of days..then i travel back to US the following day and i called him when i got home and he said he’s busy casting those spells and he has bought all the materials needed for the spells,he said am gonna see positive results in the next 2 days that is Thursday…My girlfriend called me at exactly 12:35pm on Thursday and apologies for all she had done ..she said,she never knew what she’s doing and her sudden behavior was not intentional and she promised not to do that again.it was like am dreaming when i heard that from her and when we ended the call,i called the man and told him my wife called and he said i haven’t seen anything yet… he said i will also get my job back in 2 days time..and when its Sunday,they called me at my place of work that i should resume working on Monday and they gonna compensate me for the time limit have spent at home without working..My life is back into shape,i have my girlfriend back and we are happily married now with kids and i have my job back too,This man is really powerful..if we have up to 20 people like him in the world,the world would have been a better place..he has also helped many of my friends to solve many problems and they are all happy now..Am posting this to the forum for anybody that is interested in meeting the man for help.you can mail him on this e-mail; freedomlovespell@hotmail.com i cant give out his number cos he told me he don’t want to be disturbed by many people across the world..he said his email is okay and you can also contact him on his web site: freedomlovespelltemple.yolasite.com

  • Andrian Harsono

    I am a Unionist through and through, but while a few months ago I would have been far more passionate and emotional, I am now more relaxed about both possible outcomes. In a marriage where a spouse perpetually threatens to walk out, divorce in itself is a form of liberation.

  • Carolyn

    Hello,
    My name is Jessica Flora,Am from UK,i never believe there will ever be a solution to my relationship problem with my lover. my lover called Chris flora threw me out of his house and brought in another lady who he now feels the only best for him. until one day i receive a phone call from a friend in the city that my man is going out on a date with another woman in town, i told her i am also surprise too, because since Chris flora has left me he hardly think nor call me. so after some few days my friend called Martha called me and told me that she has found a man that is very powerful, and he is a great herbalist from Africa, truly we all knows that Africans are blessed with so much herbal voodoo powers which they use to help much people, so he told me that the man name is Prophet Lord , that she will forward his email address for me so that i can contact him for help, so truly she sent me Prophet Lord email address and i contacted him that faithful day. he mailed me after a great while that my man will be back to me if only i believe on his work,so after 25hrs i receive a phone call from smith Moore, and he started begging that i should please forgive him against all he had done to me.. he begged me of breaking my heart and letting the other lady a new heart. he promise me never to let go. now i and Smith Moore are now planning to get married as soon as possible. we are brought back with the great powerful love spell and blinded with Prophet Lord spell, we are happy and glad. so i thank you sir for the great help you offer to me, because i think today this might be the only ways and means i can ever thank you of your work.. i am glad. you can contact him for a love spell today at: solutionoflovespelltemple@gmail.com thank you sir. Email him on: solutionoflovespelltemple@gmail.com

  • Carolyn

    Hello,
    My Name is Wendy Spencer.Am from NEW YORK CITY, I love to share my testimony to all the people in the forum cos i never thought i will have my girlfriend back and she means so much to me..The girl i want to get marry to left me 4 weeks to our weeding for another man..,When i called her she never picked my calls,She deleted me on her Facebook and she changed her Facebook status from married to Single…when i went to her place of work she told her boss she never want to see me..i lost my job as a result of this cos i cant get myself anymore,my life was upside down and everything did not go smooth with my life…I tried all i could do to have her back to all did not work out until i met a Man when i Travel to Africa to execute some business have been developing some years back..I told him my problem and all have passed through in getting her back and how i lost my job…he told me he gonna help me…i don’t believe that in the first place.but he swore he will help me out and he told me the reason why my girlfriend left me and also told me some hidden secrets.i was amazed when i heard that from him..he said he will cast a spell for me and i will see the results in the next couple of days..then i travel back to US the following day and i called him when i got home and he said he’s busy casting those spells and he has bought all the materials needed for the spells,he said am gonna see positive results in the next 2 days that is Thursday…My girlfriend called me at exactly 12:35pm on Thursday and apologies for all she had done ..she said,she never knew what she’s doing and her sudden behavior was not intentional and she promised not to do that again.it was like am dreaming when i heard that from her and when we ended the call,i called the man and told him my wife called and he said i haven’t seen anything yet… he said i will also get my job back in 2 days time..and when its Sunday,they called me at my place of work that i should resume working on Monday and they gonna compensate me for the time limit have spent at home without working..My life is back into shape,i have my girlfriend back and we are happily married now with kids and i have my job back too,This man is really powerful..if we have up to 20 people like him in the world,the world would have been a better place..he has also helped many of my friends to solve many problems and they are all happy now..Am posting this to the forum for anybody that is interested in meeting the man for help.you can mail him on this e-mail;driayaryi2012@hotmail.com i cant give out his number cos he told me he don’t want to be disturbed by many people across the world..he said his email is okay and he’ will replied to any emails asap..hope he helped u out too..good luck his email; driayaryi2012@hotmail.com

  • Carolyn

    Hello,
    My name is Jessica Flora,Am from UK,i never believe there will ever be a solution to my relationship problem with my lover. my lover called Chris flora threw me out of his house and brought in another lady who he now feels the only best for him. until one day i receive a phone call from a friend in the city that my man is going out on a date with another woman in town, i told her i am also surprise too, because since Chris flora has left me he hardly think nor call me. so after some few days my friend called Martha called me and told me that she has found a man that is very powerful, and he is a great herbalist from Africa, truly we all knows that Africans are blessed with so much herbal voodoo powers which they use to help much people, so he told me that the man name is Prophet Lord , that she will forward his email address for me so that i can contact him for help, so truly she sent me Prophet Lord email address and i contacted him that faithful day. he mailed me after a great while that my man will be back to me if only i believe on his work,so after 25hrs i receive a phone call from smith Moore, and he started begging that i should please forgive him against all he had done to me.. he begged me of breaking my heart and letting the other lady a new heart. he promise me never to let go. now i and Smith Moore are now planning to get married as soon as possible. we are brought back with the great powerful love spell and blinded with Prophet Lord spell, we are happy and glad. so i thank you sir for the great help you offer to me, because i think today this might be the only ways and means i can ever thank you of your work.. i am glad. you can contact him for a love spell today at: solutionoflovespelltemple@gmail.com thank you sir. Email him on: solutionoflovespelltemple@gmail.com

  • Carolyn

    Hello,
    My Name is Wendy Spencer.Am from NEW YORK CITY, I love to share my testimony to all the people in the forum cos i never thought i will have my girlfriend back and she means so much to me..The girl i want to get marry to left me 4 weeks to our weeding for another man..,When i called her she never picked my calls,She deleted me on her Facebook and she changed her Facebook status from married to Single…when i went to her place of work she told her boss she never want to see me..i lost my job as a result of this cos i cant get myself anymore,my life was upside down and everything did not go smooth with my life…I tried all i could do to have her back to all did not work out until i met a Man when i Travel to Africa to execute some business have been developing some years back..I told him my problem and all have passed through in getting her back and how i lost my job…he told me he gonna help me…i don’t believe that in the first place.but he swore he will help me out and he told me the reason why my girlfriend left me and also told me some hidden secrets.i was amazed when i heard that from him..he said he will cast a spell for me and i will see the results in the next couple of days..then i travel back to US the following day and i called him when i got home and he said he’s busy casting those spells and he has bought all the materials needed for the spells,he said am gonna see positive results in the next 2 days that is Thursday…My girlfriend called me at exactly 12:35pm on Thursday and apologies for all she had done ..she said,she never knew what she’s doing and her sudden behavior was not intentional and she promised not to do that again.it was like am dreaming when i heard that from her and when we ended the call,i called the man and told him my wife called and he said i haven’t seen anything yet… he said i will also get my job back in 2 days time..and when its Sunday,they called me at my place of work that i should resume working on Monday and they gonna compensate me for the time limit have spent at home without working..My life is back into shape,i have my girlfriend back and we are happily married now with kids and i have my job back too,This man is really powerful..if we have up to 20 people like him in the world,the world would have been a better place..he has also helped many of my friends to solve many problems and they are all happy now..Am posting this to the forum for anybody that is interested in meeting the man for help.you can mail him on this e-mail;driayaryi2012@hotmail.com i cant give out his number cos he told me he don’t want to be disturbed by many people across the world..he said his email is okay and he’ will replied to any emails asap..hope he helped u out too..good luck his email; driayaryi2012@hotmail.com

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