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It's time to reclaim Islam from the fanatics. Here's how

Can my religion be reconciled with free expression? The answer is yes

29 March 2014

9:00 AM

29 March 2014

9:00 AM

I am not a moderate Muslim, I am a reformist. Rooting out corrupt practices can never be an act of mere moderation. Restoring integrity, or wholeness, is always a radical act. It transcends notions of left and right, emphasising the need to think independently. In Islam, independent thought has a strong history, not that you’d know it from the news about bombings, beheadings and bloodshed. ‘Jihad’ has become part of the West’s vocabulary and with good reason. But there is a lesser-known term in Islam — one that has the capacity to change the world for good.

The idea is ‘ijtihad’, Islam’s tradition of questioning and reinterpreting. And it is absolutely fundamental to the spirit of the Qur’an. Islam’s scripture contains three times as many passages urging Muslims to think and rethink than verses promoting blind worship.

That’s nice in theory, but what about in fact? In the Islam of a millennium ago, ijtihad flourished. It was no coincidence that Islamic civilisation led the world in curiosity, creativity and ingenuity. But then the sun set on Islam’s golden age. Invaders from North Africa pillaged the pluralism of Muslim Spain. From Cordoba to Baghdad, much of the Islamic empire lapsed into defensiveness. Out of 135 schools of Sunni thought, just four survived. The gates of ijtihad narrowed and in some places closed, legitimising rigid readings of the Qur’an. To this day, Muslims still struggle with the idea of independent thought.

But a new generation of Muslims are pushing the boundaries. In growing numbers, we are speaking our truths to self-appointed authorities, be they our parents or their imams. I can attest to this because young Muslims have been sharing their stories with me since I wrote my book, The Trouble with Islam Today. It was published ten years ago, with the predictable noise from offended Muslims drowning out the support from many others.

Those others, often the children of conservatives, wrote to me about their desperation for a Muslim community that accepts their interfaith relationships. In 2007, I used my blog to publish a blessing of Muslim-Christian love, written in English by a scholarly imam who reinterpreted the Qur’an. It was downloaded so often that I had it translated into 20 more languages.

Last year, Al Jazeera aired an intense debate about Muslim reform between me and the British commentator Mehdi Hasan. Hate mail followed. So did love bombs. But I did not receive any death threats. To be sure, the reality remains that those who shatter age-old taboos within Islam do have to fear for their lives. While it is true that every religion has its extremists, in no other religion do mainstream believers routinely shrug off the murder of dissenters. This is a life-and-death difference. All the more reason for ijtihad to be revived in the 21st century.

Nowhere does the necessity of ijtihad seem more urgent than in the wars over freedom of expression. One might say that the UK led the way. More than 25 years ago, a puny hive of British Muslims demanded the death of novelist Salman Rushdie even before Iran’s Ayatollah Khomeini issued his infamous fatwa.

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Earlier this year, I watched the British brouhaha over my friend Maajid Nawaz, the prospective Liberal Democrat candidate for Kilburn and co-founder of the counter-extremism outfit Quilliam. Nawaz had tweeted a cartoon called Jesus and Mo. Jesus to Mo: ‘Hey!’ Mo: ‘How ya doing?’ The end. That was it. Two top-tier prophets swapping props.

The problem for some Muslims is that, according to tradition, Muhammad cannot be depicted in image lest he become an object of worship. But by insisting that he cannot be drawn under any circumstances, these Muslims make the prophet off-limits to anyone who does not believe as they do. They thus turn Mo into, well, an object of worship. It leaves a lot of us wondering what, if anything, has been learned since the Danish cartoons fiasco eight years ago.

Then, you will recall, a handful of journalists, politicians, diplomats and mullahs in Denmark engineered an epic cultural crisis. Months earlier, the newspaper Jyllands-Posten had published images that supposedly mocked the Prophet Muhammad. Even after the paper apologised, the controversy grew. In different parts of the world, Muslims who rioted against Danish insensitivity silenced the more reasonable voices within their faith.

At the time, I received a lot of emails, mostly from young Muslims. ‘I am even more offended by the riots than by the cartoons!’ exclaimed Mahmood, a student whose reaction typified many others’. Fed up with one upheaval after another, the Muslims who contacted me channelled their frustration into an urgent sense that Muslims need to reform ourselves.

The question is simple: can Islam be reconciled with free expression? The answer is yes. The Qur’an points out that there will always be nonbelievers and that it is for God, not for Muslims, to deal with them: ‘The truth is from your Lord, so whoever wills — let him believe; and whoever wills — let him disbelieve.’ (18:29). Moreover, the Qur’an states that there should ‘no compulsion in religion’. (2:256). Nobody should be forced to treat tradition as untouchable, including traditions that result in the messed-up Muslim habit of equating our very human prophet with an inviolable idol. Monotheists are to revere one God, not one of God’s emissaries. That is why humility requires people of faith to lampoon themselves, and each other, once in a while.

I can hear the reaction already: as a reformist, I am cherry-picking verses from the Qur’an. Given that the call for reflection suffuses the Qur’an, I am on terra firma in highlighting such little-known verses. It is my detractors who select on the shaky grounds of their own politics. After all, they ignore progressive Qur’anic passages, another one being about the liberty to choose one’s faith: ‘Unto you your religion, unto me my religion’ (109:6). While serving as grand mufti of Egypt, Sheikh Ali Gomaa quoted it to conclude that if a Muslim leaves Islam, no power in this earthly realm has the right to punish him or her. The verdict shocked Muslims in Egypt and beyond. Cultural conditioning dies hard.

That raises a new question. When Islam’s beloved messenger is satirised, should Muslims sit there and take it? Our scripture recommends that we cordially walk away from those who ridicule the faith. It also advises that we remain open towards the offenders. Pack up in peace, then pick up the conversation once the dust settles. Granted, this is not Socrates’ approach to dialogue — relentless, remorseless cross-examination — but neither does there have to be the unctuous exchange of platitudes that so often passes for interfaith dialogue.

During the Danish firestorm, the Muslims who contacted me demonstrated that we do not think uniformly. Some even challenged me to plaster the cartoons on my own website. After much consideration (as encouraged by the Qur’an), I posted links to all the caricatures. Among them were sketches depicting Muhammad as a paedophile and as a pig — images which had been fabricated by ultra-conservative Danish imams who falsely attributed them to Jyllands-Posten.

Hours after I uploaded the links, several readers emailed me in trepidation. Lise, a woman from Quebec, captured the sense of fear. ‘I am very happy that Canada does not publish these caricatures,’ she said. ‘We do not need the Islamic reaction.’ I agree. We do not need the Islamic reaction. We need diverse Islamic reactions: applause, revulsion, dismissal, embarrassment, nonviolent protest and peals of laughter.

The time has come for more of us, Muslim and non-Muslim, to hold the would-be censors to account by demonstrating moral courage. During my book tours, a pattern has emerged: on the campuses of western universities, good-hearted people whisper that they support my mission to reconcile Islam and freedom. Muslims fear community disapproval. Non-Muslims are terrified of being labelled bigots. Meanwhile, the Islam-supremacists who attend my lectures feel they have every right to champion their authoritarian interpretations of the Qur’an. The loathers of freedom appreciate their own freedom enough to deploy it to stifle the freedom of everyone else.

My call for moral courage is not about confrontation, but conversation. Ed Husain, the former jihadist who co-founded Quilliam, says he became radicalised in part by British society’s low expectations of him as a young Muslim. ‘Nobody ever said: you’re equal to us, you’re one of us, we’ll hold you to the same standards,’ he explains. ‘Nobody had the courage to stand up for liberal democracy without qualms. When people like us were holding events against women and gay people, where were our college principals and teachers?’

Those educators would only have needed to cite chapter 3, verse 7 of the Qur’an. It states that God and God alone knows the full truth of how the Qur’an ought to be interpreted. (The genius of this verse soon dawns on those who try refuting it with their seemingly superior knowledge.) Suppose the defenders of liberal democracy took five seconds to scrawl ‘Qur’an 3:7’ on pieces of paper and calmly handed them to the Islamists in their midst? No doubt, any such gesture will be greeted with the cry of ‘Islamophobe!’ You can set your clock to it. The obvious response to that is: ‘Why does encouraging dialogue make me an Islamophobe? Would I not be keeping my distance — out of fear — if I were phobic?’ Conversations start with searching questions.

This brings me to sound one cautionary note. Islamophobia does exist, and it infuriates me that some who wish to wipe Islam off the map actually believe that their agenda helps reformist Muslims. It does not. By defining Islam in the same dogmatic terms as Muslim extremists do, Islamophobes gift those extremists with the authority to decide what Islam must be. In which case, Islam-haters are the allies of Islam-supremacists — not of reformists.

For me, embracing freedom is an act of faith. Recognising the Almighty’s infinite wisdom means acknowledging my limited human wisdom. As a monotheist, I am not God. Nor am I entitled to behave as God. Hence my duty to let a thousand nonviolent flowers bloom. In short, to devote myself to Allah is to love liberty.

Irshad Manji is founder of the Moral Courage Project at New York University. She is the author most recently of Allah, Liberty and Love.

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Show comments
  • http://ironburka.blogspot.com/ Mullah Lodabullah

    # “Nawaz had tweeted a cartoon called Jesus and Mo. Jesus to Mo: ‘Hey!’ Mo: ‘How ya doing?’ The end. That was it. Two top-tier prophets swapping props.”

    One of the ‘top-tier prophets’ is a false prophet. The other is the Son of God.

    • crosscop

      I am not in the least religious but it always puzzles me that both Jesus and Mohammad are “prophets” of Islam. I just can’t see “gentle Jesus meek and mild” having anything in common with the murderer, rapist, robber and slave dealer who was Mohammad. For instance, Jesus lost his temper once, and chased money-lenders out of the temple with a knotted rope. That was about as violent as the man got. Mohammad, on the other hand, slaughtered hundreds of defenceless prisoners in cold blood and then raped one of their wives. It just does not compute.

      • https://belasariust.wordpress.com/ solly gratia

        It’s simple. Islam is believed to be a continuation of the line of prophets from Adam through Abraham, Moses and the rest to Muhammed. It is also believed that the true message of these earlier prophets was lost or corrupted, and so a final revelation was given, setting things in order. Quite a few Muslims have become Christians by paying attention to the portrait of Jesus in the Quran.

        Sadly, while most Muslims around the world aren’t extremists who run off to the hills to train in military style camps, that is because they already represent what we would consider an extreme point of view: kill apostates; kill those who dishonour your family; take over the world and bring in Shari’a law wherever possible. Moderate or reform Muslims is an oxymoron. Islam is not a personal religion, it’s a social one; you don’t get to redefine it to your personal lifestyle. At least, not in Islamic countries.

        As for the main article. One word: abrogation.

      • Cymrugel

        The Jesus of the Koran is not the Jesus of the gospels.
        Basically he is a cheerleader for Mohammed, his followers as shown in the Bible are portrayed as wicked, liars or fools ; he was not crucified, having stolen away and allowed someone else to be killed in his place and he will lead the muslims in battle on the last day.
        In essence he is pretty much like Mohammed and virtually unrecognisable as the Christian figure.

        No cheek turning for this one

      • Shazza

        Jesus preached love and ‘turning the other cheek’ whereas mohammed preached the exact opposite.

    • Muslim Comments

      God has no son, sorry.

      • David Prentice

        Prove it, O bigoted one.

      • Liz

        There is no god.

      • KingGreen

        oh well, if you say so…

        hey everybody, ‘Muslim Comments’ from the internet knows for sure, we should all listen…..!

        dude, THAT’S the problem: a sense of infallible arrogance, about things that can not be proven, and can’t possibly be known, by anybody

        Muslim think they have the answers to everything, yet if they did, would;t they live peacefully and content?
        they think their way is the right way, yet they still kill each other !!!

        you don;t see the utter stupidity in all of this?

      • ItinerantView

        God is dead and the world is encumbered by his corpse and his idiots.

        • crosscop

          Someone once told me that Eric Clapton was God. I’m all confused…

          • KingGreen

            Eric Clapton was, and still is a super fan of Enoch Powell, he even quotes him when drunk 😀 – if he were God, he wouldn’t have allowed this country to be turned into what it is today

      • Cogra Bro

        Having written my Master’s thesis on the subject of the historicity of Jesus, I can assure you that there is plenty of evidence, literary and otherwise, for the truth of the story of Jesus as recounted in the Gospels.

  • Joe

    Forcing women to have low self-esteem is like cultivating mental illness. The result is a bumper crop of deranged psychos. Add to that the fact that the Qur’an is full of coded messages that speak directly to them, and you begin to see the magnitude of the problem, and the courage of those willing to take it on.

  • Bonkim

    Islam has a rich history of art and literature despite its bigoted episodes. Today’s Islam appears to be a misguided political and distorted version of its past liberal heritage.

    • crosscop

      Islam has always been restrictive. Muslim social conscience never addressed slavery, for instance – because the Koran justifies it and Mohammad had slaves. There are no Wilberforces in Islam. And where are the Muslim Pankhursts? Art was restricted to patterns and Arabic script because depicting living creatures was deemed un-Islamic. There are no Van Goghs, Michelangelos or Turners in Islam. Music and poetry are also un-Islamic – because Mohammad said so. (Omar Khayam was a Sufi – regarded as heretics by mainstream Sunni Islam). There were no Beethovens or Mozarts in Islam. There are over a billion Muslims in the world and they have yet to produce a composer who even reaches the standard of Benny and Bjorn from Abba.
      And dotted throughout the “past liberal heritage” you speak of are forced conversions and massacres of non-Muslims – in every single country they over-ran. Not to mention the harvesting of slaves. If anything, Islam today is better than it was – but that is only because the West is militarily dominant at the moment. If the boot was on the other foot, though…

      • Bonkim

        The Wilberforces and Pankhursts would have been burnt at the stake in an earlier era. Western countries were allowed liberal thought once it showed organised Christianity as sham. That enligtenment has yet to arrive in pre-dominantly Islamic lands.

        Talking of slavery, Israelies were allowed slaves, slavery was prevalent across the globe in various forms (and regrettably still does) and followers of all religions participated in exploiting their fellow beings.

        Similarly forced conversions were the norm – and spread of Christianity across today’s so called Christian lands and in the colonial territories was by force and coercion of one sort or the other. Defeated kings usually converted to the faith of the conquerors to gain favour. Check out whether conversion across Europe was through informed discussion or through force – social or military of one sort or the other.

        • Cymrugel

          Yes but we are living in the 21st century.
          Muslims are still arguing in favour of slavery and backwards social norms, denying minorities in muslim countries civil rights and treating women like cattle.
          Non muslims are harshly treated if not actively persecuted and the whole muslim world is mired in anger suspicion and violence.

          I do not believe that study of muslim civilisation shows it to have been enlightened or tolerant at any point and its magnificence was that of looted vanquished civilisation’s. But even if it was, today it is a cesspit of bigotry.
          The world is moving on and becoming far more tolerant and integrated, with the exception of muslims who seem to be acting as a brake on development.
          We cannot accommodate 7th century social attitudes in the 21st century and it is unreasonable to expect us to do so.

          • Bonkim

            No one is asking you to accept Islam or their values – in effect keep them out from polluting Britain – equally they have right to do what they want in their lands – and if they want to practise middle-ages cultural values – their business.

        • KingGreen

          welcome to 2014

          the only people who actively use other people as slaves are muslims, doesn’t matter who did what 500, 1000 or 2000 years ago

          • Bonkim

            Broad-brush statement – ill informed and prejudiced. Check up on your facts – slavery of one sort or the other continues in many cultures including those nominally Christian, and other faiths.

          • KingGreen

            BS by an Islamist apologist
            all you people do is lie lie lie

            let me guess, you work for Amnesty International LOL

          • Bonkim

            Jumping to conclusions.

        • Cogra Bro

          Christianity is responsible for progress in social attitudes by which some people ignorantly judge past events because the concept of progress is Uniquely Christian. It derives from the doctrine of the coming Kingdom of God. That is why it is The Christian West which brought modernity to the world, not any other civilisation.

          It is because Islam has no concept of progress that it has attitudes stuck in the seventh century and has produced little of genuine interest culturally or in other ways in seven centuries.

          • Bonkim

            Such rubbish – the West progressed because it threw away the cloak of blind religion. All those that shout lord Lord will not get the Kingdom of Heaven. Western progressive thoughts and social organisations are crumbling in line with its economic decline. Others will replace it as such th

            Conversely all those who subscribe to their religious faiths believe theirs is the true and liberating from man’s interpretations – and in doing so arrive at diverse interpretations. There are diverse interpretations of Christianity and few understand it or believe everything in the scriptures. God has been shaped by man ever since time began in his own image which changes from generation to generation.

            Regards culture, progress and forward looking to the kingdom of heaven (on earth), all cultures go through their lifecycles, other religions and cultures had prevailed in their times, rose up to great heights in innovative technologies, literature, the arts, and social organisation, and subsequently deteriorated and crumbled due to various internal and external factors.

            Religion at its worst is blind, cultural traits cloak it and don’t forget – Christianity as Islam grew up in the same geographical region and amongst the same ethnic/cultural people – in principle Christianity as spread across Europe over the past 1000 years is a political creed established by the Holy Roman Empire – nothing to do with the Christianity of the Bible. Most of today’s so called Christians have little understanding of the teachings of Jesus and his disciples, and practise that even less.

          • Cogra Bro

            You are right in thinking that Cultures / Civilisations rise and decline. Why do they do that?

            If you reflect on our own, you will see that it is degenerating as fast as it loses its attachment to Christianity and develops an exclusively materialist world view.

            Civilisations rise or fall according to their orientation to the spiritual. That was the insight of the Harvard sociologist and historian , Pitirim Sorokin: ‘Social and Cultural Dynamics’, ‘The Crisis of our Age’ etc. As Christ said, Man does not live by bread alone. For a culture worthy of the name, inspiration through real motivation is required.

            Can anyone say that there is inspiration in the nothingness of atheism? A reasonable answer would be resounding no. All there is is consumerism and the indulgence of the senses.

            I know of no culture or civilisation which has risen to anything like the heights of Western a Civilisation, which has produced modernity

          • Bonkim

            Live in your hole if you want – In their times India, Egypt, Rome, China, Japan, the Aztecs, Mongols and the Central Asian Khanates were the superpower or technologically and socially advanced during their ascendancy.

          • Cogra Bro

            They were superpowers of their time but they represented no advance of any fundamental significance. The chemical discoveries of the Muslims, for example, were the result of trial and error rather than any innovation in thinking, Islam has produced nothing of note in seven centuries. As for social advance; China remained an essentially slave society all of whose subjects belonged to the Emperor right up to the 20th century and the same was true of Islamic and most other non-Western societies .

            The technological discoveries of the Greeks, Romans and Chinese for example were artisan achievements without systematic thought or full appreciation of why they worked (Although the mathematics of the Greeks produced some fascinating results in astronomy, such as the (erroneous)Ptolemaic system).

            The entire artistic achievement of the Chinese and Japanese was no greater than that of a single small European nation: the Netherlands.

            None of these civilisations even at their respective zeniths and even that of the Greeks, produced anything like the astounding advances made by the Christian West. They simply cannot be compared to what arose out of the achievement of the West in fusing Greek critical enquiry and Christianity attitudes.

            That is why the West dominated the world for so long, and why other nations which have adopted its science technology and other aspects are now able to rise.

          • Bonkim

            You are talking out of your depth both on history and progressive technological development across the globe. You also have a very narrow span on how such developments take place. Chemistry and mathematics evolved in India/China, spread across the then known world by Arab seafarers. Trial and error was the practice as people did not have grasp of examining materials and linking cause and effect systematically. the Romans and indians did that two thousand years back but was lost because of blind religion – Christianity and Islam were anti-science – Remember Galileo was persecuted by the Pope and Christians believed in flat earth and alchemy although ancient Greek/Indian/Egyptians had worked out basic geometry, and numerical analysis and Arab seafarers used navigation techniques and compass – which the Spanish/Portuguese learnt from the Arabs and ventured out to discover new continents. All basic metal working, gunpowder, understanding of minerals, etc were tried out in India/China and brought to Europe via the Silk route.

            Stop sitting in your hole and imaging Christianity invented modern science and Maths – yes over the past 300 years the older civilizations waned and the new triumphed mainly because of better organisation and discovery of new resources and triggering of systematic study of natural forces by the leisured classes in Germany and Britain including the Monasteries and subsequent adventurers.

            If you look at the later 20th and the 21st centuries – most new innovations are being worked on by Chines, Indian and Asian, also European engineers and scientists in the US where the resources and working environment help them maximise their potential.

            The Church/Christianity has sod all to do with that.

          • Cogra Bro

            May I refer you to Alfred North Whitehead, Co author with Bertrand Russell of Principia Mathematica, who in a Harvard Lowell Lecture in 1922 affirmed that Christianity was a necessary although not a sufficient cause for the rise of modern science.

            Moden science, meaning the modern scientific method, requires a view of nature as lawful and capable of rational exploration. This view of it, unknown in any other religion or philosophy, was provided by Christianity, which uniquely viewed God as personal , loving and as Lawful and as capable of being understood in the secret of his good creation nature.

          • Bonkim

            There are any number of religious philosophers concocting theories about human and social development. Christianity was in the dumps for 1700 years until it was discarded by scientists and engineers – the 16th and 17th century adventurers triggered the modern era as the old civilizations started to wane – everything follows their lifecycles – and today western civilization is in decline as those in the East are rising up again – don’t forget the Indian, Chinese, and Central Asian Islamic Empires were the superpowers in their turn following the decline of Egypt, Greece, and Rome. Europe was in the dumps and tribal societies in the process to gelling into the later nations some of which evolved to be strong and innovative.

            Get real – Christianity is just another man-made belief system and I consider all religions superstitions. Christianity has its origin in the Middle-East same location where Islam came into being subsequently – both have the same roots with Judaism – faith of the wandering nomads lost in an inhospitable region amongst warring tribes – and their history reflects that.

            The religions of the East evolved from prehistoric paganism in a land of plenty and more settled agrarian societies and hence easy going. The natural environment had played its part in forming certain trains that made people take more risk and hence succeed compared with the easy going lot. Western society is now getting soft and risk-averse and declining.

          • Cogra Bro

            Regarding modern science, I refer you to the Harvard Lowell lectures given by Alfred North Whitehead in 1922 which affirmed that modern science arose in the West and nowhere else because it was Christian.

            As for the rest of your assertions, I suggest you read the books by Rodney Stark, who was Professor of Comparative a Religion at Washington University and is now Distinguished Professor of Sociology at Baylor in the USA.

            These include ‘the Victory of Reason ‘ and ‘How the West Won’.

          • Bonkim

            Hope you keep reading the guff and believe what you want. Alternatively you may wish to link causes and effects and come to your own conclusions rather than swallow someone else’s views and opinions.

          • Cogra Bro

            I prefer to speak out of knowledge rather than ignorance. I suggest you try to do the same.

            This exchange is now at an end so far as I am concerned, because you seem to be impervious to reasonable argument.

          • Bonkim

            as the straw man said to Dorothy ‘some people that have no brains say an awful lot – don’t they’.

          • Bonkim

            economic and military successes coupled with social organisation over the past three hundred years were the main reasons for the ascendancy of the West, also having gained access to huge resources and cheap labour across the globe triggering technologic and economic advancement first in Europe and North America which has now spread across the earth.

            – nothing to do with Christianity – in fact the Confucian ethic had succeeded much more – note fast rise of Japan and China despite the attempts of Western powers to dominate and centuries old cultural handicaps that constrained society.

            The only connection is with religion was the Protestant work ethic – note Catholic dominated Empires and countries remained backward until the 20th century – so nothing to do with Christianity but cultural traits.

            Christian Italy is a shadow of the Great Roman (Pagan) Empire, and Spanish expansion’s connection that of an unthinking and ignorant mass of people blindly following the Papacy – not unlike the ignorant masses following Islam or other religions in Asia, Africa, South America and the Mid-East.

            Christian Latin America is still backward as also much of Christian followers in Africa and Asia – your point about Christianity as the basis of modernity is therefore bunkum.

      • Cogra Bro

        Islam continues to have slaves. An Arab Prince brought one to London recently and proceeded to badly mistreat him. From memory, the man died..

    • KingGreen

      unfortunately for them, it’s not 1287, but 2014!

      time to wake the f*** up, instead of resorting on some laurels that are over half a millennium old: frankly, that’s pathetic!

      • Bonkim

        If Islam is unable to adapt and change it will perish. On the other hand all religions are superstitions but man’s attempts to change religions only lead to their demise – once you ask the question – is religion and God shaped by man or the other way round.

    • Rocksy

      Social conscience for whom. Women? Girls? Infidels? Liberal heritage? what colour is the sky in your world?

  • KingGreen

    it is not the job of us non-Muslims to show the world that crazy religious fanatic psychotics are that famous ‘tiny minority’ we keep hearing about, belonging to the hysterical ‘religion of peace’ (try to get that down with a straight face)

    where is this illusive ‘vast majority’ that opposes them?
    where are they protest when a solider gets beheaded on a London street?
    they surely come out in thousands when it comes to protest a bloody cartoon, yet when people are KILLED, there’s crickets.

    It’s sick and it shows only one thing: a silent accomplice.

    Muslims have more chances to show us their stand against terrorism (since this ‘tiny minority’ seems to operate woldwide on a daily basis in dozens of countries), which they don’t, than not – yet they fail, every single time.

    They get offended by cartoons and youtube films, but FGM and beheading UN workers does not offend their gentle souls – it’s sick if you ask me!

    I feel that we have much more reasons for being offended by this ideology:
    their racism, ungratefulness, demanding nature, uncompromising attitude, oppression, racism, subjugation, blackmail, threats of violence, etc etc etc hundreds of things about Islam offend me on a daily basis.

    Muslims aren;t even happy in their own countries, amongst themselves, under their own laws, no jews around, no americans around, yet they’ll still slaughter one another – then they turn around and blame someone for all their misery and squalor.

    It is THEIR job to show the world where they stand.
    Unless they do, more and more people will be of the following opinion:

    A moderate Muslim will hold your feet, while the extremist Muslim will cut off your head.

    • Hamza Hashem

      Perhaps if you exrecised as much effort into actually reading how Muslims reacted to these situations you would understand it better then just assuming we dont react or condemn.

      There were large gatherings of Muslims who offered condolences for the Lee Rigby for exaample – however if there was a true gathering of Muslims for that you would have had people such as the EDL attacking them and critizing them. It is a no win situation.

      When a Muslim does something bad you expect all Muslims to appologize for it – but you do not hold anyone else to the same standards? What of attrocities commited all across the world? The top 5 countries for child prostitution have onyl a tiny minority Muslim population – Are we demanding that all Americans, Thais or brazilians appologize for those who do such horrible things? Klu Klux Klan have a long history of bible thumping inspired bigotry and hatred, who is appologixing for that?

      Stop tryingt o lay the blame on innocent people and save your condemnation for those who actually are perpetrating the crime.

      • Muslim Comments

        A Multifaceted Fraud: Reviewing Irshad Manji’s ‘Trouble With Islam’ http://podur.org/node/881

      • Liz

        But the difference is that Muslims belong to an Ummah, Westerners don’t. Christians do and they do tend to issue joint official apologies for Christian crimes. So do heads of state for their past misdeeds.

        The Ummah operates when there is shared victimhood, allowing a youth in England to share in other Muslims’ suffering, but it breaks down when joint responsibility is called for, then the guilty part becomes “not a true Muslim”. The trouble is that Islam lacks a senior cleric able to issue these kinds of pronouncements.

        • Hamza Hashem

          Of all the comments i have had to respond to – I would like to thank you for the only one that was not a hate filled rant, but a thought out articulation of your thoughts.

          I also would agree with what you said for the most part – While I do not believe we need the established hierarchy of Christianity (for example) it does put us at a disadvantage when tying to promote our true beliefs or voice our concerns over atrocities.

          However, there is also no central Church issuing apologies (unless your Catholic) but there are groups and organizations or coalitions of churches as there are Mosques. If you look for them you will most often see these groups speaking against these atrocities we see today – Sadly they just don’t get the same amount of press as the bad people.

          • crosscop

            How can a Muslim truly speak out against these atrocities when their “Perfect Man” – who they are supposed to emulate – committed atrocities himself and said ( Bukhari 4:52:220) “I have been made victorious through terror”?

          • KingGreen

            oh, well, if you say so, then it must be true

            i must have been blinded by all the ‘Behead unbelievers’ and ‘Kill those who insult Islam’ placards, that the nice placards got drowned out……………

            wait a minute, there have never been any ‘Not in our name’ and ‘We stand against terrorism’ placards on London streets?

            oh, never mind then, taqiyya yet again

          • KingGreen

            you mean like hate filled rants that muslims leave by the hundreds of thousands on youtube???

            just pick ANY news channel, about ANY Muslim country, and you’ll get some angry, hissing, gun wielding nutter

            seriosuly dude, LOOK UP THE WORD ‘IRONY’ FFS!

      • KingGreen

        ‘reading into how Muslims reacted’???

        you’d think that people who literally STORM capital squares in hysterical outrage over cartoons, would be more vociferous over DEATH IN THE NAME OF THEIR RELIGION!!

        Muslims are cowards
        looking for a Muslims who will admit the vile hypocrisy of his kind, in regards to basically everything, is like looking for tits on an ant

        nice try thought

        p.s.: who gives a fig about the KKK? is that the best you can up with, you pathetic coward? since when is the KKK responsible for all wars in the world? since when does a member of the KKK behead a soldier on a London street?

        dumb dumb dumb

        • Hamza Hashem

          You are simply another hate monger unwilling to accept any form of discussion without brandishing your hate as much or more then the very people you are going on about.

          Perhaps one day you will be able to actually talk, learn and share with people and perhaps through this we will all learn a bit more tolerance.

          • gerontius

            You don’t do irony do you?

          • KingGreen

            wait a minute……

            you talk about SHARING, HATRED, ACCEPTING FORMS OF DISCUSSION AND LEARNING???????

            i knew there was no word for ‘Irony’ in arabic

            maybe when muslims have learned how to share without killing and looting (!!!! f***ing nuts this guy, seriously, IRONY??), how to listen to people with different opinions without threatening to behead them, and how to speak without spewing and spitting aggression and violence, we can sit down and have a conversation. Until then I look at you exactly the way you PRESENT YOURSELVES.

  • A N Analyst

    Jerusalem has been held by Islam for over 1300 since the fifth century, not one brick of the Wailing Wall or any Christian shrine was touched. Now we have a saud family conveniently lying in bed with the cultist wahabis, both falsehoods needing each other in a very symbiotic relationship. And we all know the result. The only way to reclaim Islam is for the people to reject both these evil forces. This has already started, the hitherto “respected” wahabi clerics proselytising worldwide are now being slapped and thrown out of mosques after their sermons. And the hitherto unassailable saud regime is coming under increasing political pressure. The root of all the evil is the control of the Ghawar oil field which only by itself has been spewing out 6m bpd of crude for years now ie $200 BILLION pa. It of course lies in a shia populated region, which goes a long way towards explaining the saud/wahabi sectarian stance..

    • crosscop

      “Jerusalem has been held by Islam for over 1300 since the fifth century, not one brick of the Wailing Wall or any Christian shrine was touched.”
      5th Century? Mohammad didn’t even invent Islam until the mid-7th Century.

      • A N Analyst

        I thought it was 540 AD, anyways your slip is showing, where you are coming from ,1300 years give take two hundred that STILL LEAVES 1,000 YEARS. But then you must be a sisi !! Its a standard hasbara tactic BTW, to zero in with facile points.

        • crosscop

          A thousand years and no “Christian shrine was touched.” That would probably be because the Muslims banned the Christians from building new ones or repairing the old ones without their permission.
          I thought it quite relevant to show that you Muslims don’t even know your own history. I also relied on you to show that Muslims also are incredibly quick to fly off the handle when faced with any form of criticism. And you have done it to perfection. Well done!
          Now, hasbara – didn’t they have something to do with cartoons… Yogi Bear, or something like that? Oh, sorry, you don’t care much for cartoons, do you?

          • A N Analyst

            Now thats a hasbaric hissy fit !!

          • Cogra Bro

            The ancient church in Damascus which houses relics of John the Baptist is now a mosque.

        • KingGreen

          if there is one thing, Muslims are famous for, it’s destruction!

          destruction of anybody else’s places of worship, destruction of archeology, even destruction of their own mosques and their own people and their own futures

          nice try though

          • A N Analyst

            20 boys from a bar mitzvah seminary given hammers and any Wailing Wall could have been down in two sweaty days. Think.

  • crosscop

    More and more people are beginning to realise that allowing Muslim immigration into Europe has been a terrible, terrible blunder – perhaps the greatest blunder in the continent’s entire history. It can only end badly. There is as little chance of Islam being reformed as me finding a unicorn grazing my lawn. The Koran is Islam and Islam is the Koran. To mess with the barbaric teachings that litter the Koran is blasphemy and blasphemers will be murdered. How do you actually go about reforming the instructions to kill, crucify and mutilate people as per Sura 5:33, for instance, Irshad? These are instructions from Allah himself.
    I just wish that Islam could be sent back whence it came. Our leaders have invited a monster to live amongst us.

    • Rocksy

      I fervently hope the noise I hear is not horse hooves riding off into the sunset.

    • Augustus

      Absolutely. The problem non-Muslims have to face is that the radical terrorists legitimize their actions in the same Suras and Hadiths from the same Koran read by moderate Muslims. That’s why our Western politicians have simply failed in the three I ‘s: Islam, Immigration and Integration. And those few Muslims who do repudiate the ideology of hate against the West, against Christians and especially Jews, are in turn repudiated, ostracized, or killed as apostates from Islam. Islam as written in the Koran, is tyrannical, unjust and evil, and it contains conclusive evidence that the founder of this ‘religion’ suffered from the most intense and worst human weaknesses.

      • Hegelguy

        Nonsense. Mohammed founded a very great civilization that gave the world immense things. Modern mathematics and science would not have been possible without Muslim achievements. Algebra is an Arabic word.
        Mohammed was mostly a humorous, enlightened man by the standards of his times, a great deal more so than most of the biblical prophets.

        • Liz

          I think you mean Persian achievements.

          Many of the intellectuals in Persia while it was under Islamic rule were Jewish and Christian.

          • Cogra Bro

            Yes Omar Khyyaam, for example, who solved some quadratic equations. was a Persian and hostile to Islam,

        • Liz

          And you must remember that it’s extremely possible that Mohammed didn’t actually exist but was invented to compete with Christianity when Arabs occupied Jerusalem after the Romans were ousted.

        • KingGreen

          LOOL

          yeah, without Islam, we’d all be living in caves with candlelight and wall murals……

          pathetic

          regarding Mathematics: ever heard of the ancient greeks?

          • crosscop

            I once came across a Muslim who claimed that they invented baths and introduced them to Europe. They are taught these things by their imams and they believe them. They are completely brainwashed.
            How can anyone go through life without realising that the Romans were splashing about in baths centuries before Islam was dreamt up? As were the Greeks. Homer mentions someone taking a bath in “The Odyssey” – and archaeologists have even discovered the bath he was talking about!
            They even claim to have discovered America before us.

          • KingGreen

            taqiyya

            they all lie, all the time, about everything

        • ItinerantView

          “Mohammed was mostly a humorous, enlightened man”
          hahahahahahahaaaaaahahahahahaha…………………….ah———-ahahahahahahahahaha

        • crosscop

          “Mostly humerous? Yes, it was mostly hilarious when he sent his assassins round to Asma bint Marwan’s house to stab her to death as she slept beside her baby. And examining young lads naughty bits to see if they had pubes – before deciding to behead them if they did – was mostly a real hoot! And it was mostly so funny when he… wait for it… you’ll be in stitches… told that joke about riding to heaven on a flying horse and haggling with God about how many times Muslims had to say their prayers. What’s that? It wasn’t a joke?
          BTW – Algebra is indeed an Arabic word… but then so is assassin.

          • Shazza

            Even the flying horse was nicked from the Greeks. I seem to recall a certain horse called Pegasus…….

        • Shazza

          Rubbish. Maths came from the ancient Greeks – I did not know that Pythagoras, Euclid etc. were Arab names.

          Yeah sure, Mohammed had a great sense of humour – we are all so happy having the RoP spreading their humour as they did on 9/11 and 7/7 etc.

        • Cyril Sneer

          This is the same pedo rapist murderer of women and children…. we’re talking about the same Mo here right? Someone, who if had been alive today, would’ve been castrated and hung for crimes against children.

          Compare him to Jesus… it’s like comparing light to dark, good to evil, need I go on….

    • Shazza

      I cannot believe how this primitive creed has been allowed to dominate and destroy all our hard won freedoms and civilisation.

      Primitive Islam doing what is done in primitive societies.

      • Muslim Comments

        Snowden

      • Hegelguy

        The Koran is mild compared to the Bible. As a prophet Mohammed was enlightened compared to most of the biblical ones.
        European freedoms were won by freethinkers and atheists in the teeth of Christian fanatics.

        • Liz

          How was Mohammed enlightened compared to Jewish and Christian prophets? Specifically.

          • KingGreen

            he wasn’t

            Christians were discovering astronomy, Jews were writing medical encyclopaedias, all while Muslims were sitting around in mud huts

          • Cogra Bro

            Wasn’t it the left hand eating and the right wiping? One ought to know when shaking hands, because they still do it..

          • Varg Valdes

            Quran Al-Baqara 256:
            “There is no compulsion in religion.”
            Deuteronomy 13:6-10:
            ““Even your brother or your son or your daughter or the wife you love or your closest friend may secretly encourage you to worship other gods, gods that you and your ancestors have never worshiped. Some of them may encourage you to worship the gods of the people who live near you or the gods of those who live far away. But do not let any of them persuade you; do not even listen to them. Show them no mercy or pity, and do not protect them. Kill them! Be the first to stone them, and then let everyone else stone them too. Stone them to death!”

          • KingGreen

            i’m not sure what you’re doing, Mr Imbecile

            but what you wrote is a regurgitation of some crap, some guy sitting under extreme heat in a desert wrote about 1500 years ago

            but I wrote are historical facts

          • Varg Valdes

            The argument was “the Muslim prophet Muhammed was less enlightened than the Judaic prophets”. I disproved that argument by referring the the sayings attributed to both of them. Your “historical facts” were not about any prophets and are also wrong. I’ll refer you to the Islamic golden age, the fact that much of Greek thinking would be lost had not the Muslims collected and developed it, and that we wouldn’t have algebra or modern chemistry (among other things) without the work done by Muslims scholars. Even the earliest christian texts on astronomy that you praise so much where translations or adaptions of the Muslim ones (which themselves were a developed from the Greek, Indian and Iranian ones.)

          • KingGreen

            LOOOOL

            yeah, as I said before: if it weren’t for Islam, we’d be all living in huts, as you can very very very clearly see by the developmental progress and modernity onmi-represented all over Muslim countries….!

          • Shazza

            Their medical knowledge is modernity itself – ingestion of camel urine apparently is very effective in the promotion of health.

          • Cogra Bro

            Yes, one finds that muslims are eager to migrate to the (still Christian ) West, but there is precious little desire among Westerners to sample the alleged delights of Islamic societies.

          • Pip

            With your intellectual capacity you would find a hard time proving your a normal human being never mind anything else, its unwise to allow others to form your ideals just because you cant think for yourself.

          • Daniel Maris

            Hegelguy is just regurgitating some nonsense he’s been told.

            The OT prophets weren’t always v moral by our standards but none of them could match Mohammed on the range and depth of iniquity.

          • Cogra Bro

            They were moral by the standards of their time.

        • Gwangi

          Mohammed was a child-marrying 7th century warlord who used a religion to control people and get more power, money and land for himself. He killed people- very many of them – including some poets who dared to write verses criticising him; Mohammed the murderer had their turbans nailed to their heads.
          Any Muslims who is tolerant is do in spite of Islam, not because of it.
          And, as an atheist (worse then a dog and should be killed according to that fascist murder manual The Koran), even I argue on the side of Christians because a great many reformers amongst them, fought the powers that be ( read some history, read about the Lollards and others) and eventually broke from the totalitarian catholic church to create a protestant church that led directly to individual freedoms and modern society as we know it today – a society that tolerates the likes of you and your daft and dangerous opinions.

        • Cogra Bro

          That is complete tripe. The idea of progress is a by-product of Christianity, arising from its doctrine of the coming Kingdom of God (Utopian conceptions such as marxism and its offshoot, Progressivism and the Neo Cons, are perversions of this).

          Were it not for Christianity, we would still be a slave owning, aggressive and pagan society like the Greeks or ancient Rome. Modern science, meaning the scientific method, would not be invented because it too is an offshoot of Christianity, stemming from the Christian belief in a loving , lawful God who could be understood by exploring his good creation. nature.

          Our technology would be little more advanced than that of the 16th century or that of China before it acquired modern Western know-how.

          As for freedoms and equality; these arise from the Christian belief in the value of each individual as an equally loved child of God

          Free thinkers have given us the French Revolutionary Terror and innumerable other ghastly regimes.

      • Daidragon

        Could you explain to me how Islam dominates and destroys ‘our’ civilisation? How has Islam destroyed your freedom? You constantly rely on ignorant generalisations to make a point so it is time to put some evidence up.

        • Shazza

          A primitive creed excels in ignorance and ignorance destroys civilisation. Islam is a primitive creed.

      • Pip

        Oil money.

    • Hegelguy

      It is no more than you richly deserve. No country went so maliciously out of its way to use extreme Islam to torment other nations than the UK and its fellow gangster the US. They filled Pakistan with extreme Islamic propaganda, drugs and guns to fuel the war against Russia in Afghanistan. Al Qaeda and the Taliban were the direct result of that totally immoral crusade. When India complained to the US in those days that its soldiers and civilians were being slaughtered in tens of thousands by Islamist fanatics trained in Pakistan and using US weapons, the US merely laughed. They got it on September 11 2001.
      The Brits systematically sided with Muslims against Hindus in India in the old days and did all they could to break India up by fomenting Muslim extremism. It is known that Churchill kept up a long secret correspondence with the leader of the Muslim League Jinnah.
      Well, now your attack dog is biting you. What goes round comes round.

      • KingGreen

        yeah, Muslims slaughtering Muslims is all the fault of the west

        Muslims never slaughtered each other before the evil west, nooooooo, they were all skipping around Africa and the Middle East handing each other flowers and my-little-ponies’, there was no looting, burning, raping and killing going on – at all…

        • Varg Valdes

          Please. Throw yourself on the strawman you are so busy burning.

          • KingGreen

            please, throw yourself into a mosque with a suicide belt wrapped around you, it’s not going to be a big deal, just something that happens nearly every single day somewhere

          • Varg Valdes

            You failed to refute my claim that you only use strawmen. I’m not the one with a flawed logic here, so mine is not the one who needs eradication.

          • KingGreen

            blablabla strawmen blablabla strawmen
            just because you keep repeating it, doesn’t make what I wrote less of a reality

          • Daniel Maris

            What straw men? We are talking about historical events.

        • Daniel Maris

          LOL – OK, they did enslave a few million Africans…

      • KingGreen

        so I guess you muslims killing each other, also deserve that….?

        I mean, who are you going to blame for all your inter-religious warring? Let me guess. jews?

        from where I’m sitting, the most miserable, most unhappy and generally most pathetic lives (if you can call them lives) are being lived by muslims, not Israelis, not americans, not brits, not french and not russians.

        oone of there reasons I find Muslims (generally speaking) so atrociously stupid, is that even with extremely obvious factual evidence, they will still tell you that black is white. They will tell us that our lives suck, that we are ones who are losing, and they are winning, and that they know the truth and come from a place of honesty and God!!!!!
        and then they will pick up an AK47 and go shot some kid in the back, cause he’s the son or nephew from a political opponent….

        yeah, muslims live great lives, we all envy them and secretly want to live like them…

    • Hegelguy

      Actually, the Koran is mild compared to the Bible. The Muslims historically treated Jews infinitely more compassionately than the Christians did.

      • Liz

        They have historically treated Christians extremely badly. Expelling them from most of their territories. But there were also a fair few Jewish massacres, 400 were killed in Granada and the Jewish issuer crucified by the mob for instance.

        But the Zoroastrians and Bahai and Hindus and Buddhists got it possibly even worse.

        • Shazza

          And the Copts. The list is endless. Where primitive Islam goes, horror follows.

          • Cogra Bro

            Don’t forget the Armenians – 1,500,000 murdered by the Turks , who also massacred scores of thousands of Greeks elsewhere including 60,000 in the rape of Smyrna (Izmir) as well as Chaldeans,Assyrians and other Christians.

          • Shazza

            Yup, and when we point all of this out we are guilty of ‘hate speech’ and ‘islamophobia’.It is not going to end well for us.

        • Daniel Maris

          Black African animists also. Enslaved male negroes would all be radically castrated before beginning their servitude.

          • Cogra Bro

            Very few blacks survived castration.

      • KingGreen

        delusional

        remind me please: how many jewish communities in Muslim countries still exist, compared to 100 years ago?

        • Adam A

          Leave to go where muppet. They have lived on that land for generations unlike most of the other Israelis.

          • Guest

            yeah, and look what a great job their doing, ey?

      • crosscop

        Not one Muslim will say that the barbaric punishments advocated in 5:33 is wrong. They can’t – because it’s the word of Allah and therefore must be the right thing to do. To admit that Allah was wrong is blasphemy. All Muslims must therefore agree with these punishments or be blasphemers.
        Now, please tell us when it is justified to crucify someone or lop off their hands and feet. You see, we kuffar don’t think there can ever be justification for such barbarism.

        • Daniel Maris

          There’s certainly no justification for having your people light a fire on an old man’s chest to get him to reveal the wherabouts of treasure. In the Hadith, it is recorded that Mohammed arranged for this.

      • Daniel Maris

        Mild?

        You seem to have a very warped morality. Why don’t you decide what is moral here and now rather than trying to compare religious books? The point about Islam is that the people who teach Islam (mullahs and so on) believe Mohammed was the best example for all men in everything he did. IN other words, there has been no revision, so all of Mohammed’s rapine and violence is considered good. I can find you plenty of Jews and Christians who will not follow the example of OT prophets – but I have never come across a preacher of Islam who queries any of Mohammed’s behaviour.

    • Pip

      It was not a “Blunder” it was a deliberate Policy intended to undermine the democratic strength of the indigenous European people so that the Globalist Agenda of which the EU is a stepping stone, could be furthered with less resistance.

  • Gwangi

    Well, 30 years or more ago in the UK, most Muslims did not follow radical Wahabi literalist version of Islam, which have been promoted using Saudi oil money in The West since then. The Muslims I knew were modern – wore Western clothes, didn’t pray 5 times a day (no more obligation for Muslims to do that than for Catholics to attend mass 5 times a day). They did not have bushy beards, go to the mosque every Friday or wear burkas or even headscarves.
    Then our idiotic Multiculturalist ideology created a monster, especially after turning a blind eye to the death threats and extremism visible in 1989 when Muslims called for the killing and torture of an innocent man for writing a book (Iqbal Sacranie was later leader of The Muslim Council – an unelected politbureau of bigots – and was made a Sir by Tony Blair).
    The answer is simple: we should not give one inch to any Islamic demands. We should instead enforce our Western Enlightenment values on Muslims and all thjose who live in the UK, And if they do not like it, then they can go live in a failed state like Pakistan where they are free to marry their 12 year old cousins and murder gays or anyone who dares to speak the truth about Islam and its history and its so-called prophet (husband of a 6 year old), who was also utterly intolerant of criticism.
    Britain should be Britain once again and we should stop appeasing these fascists and tolerating the intolerable. End of.

    • Graeme S

      Absolutely Nailed it

      • Muslim Comments

        Nailed what?

      • Gwangi

        Thanks. I am sick and tired of the utter hypocrisy here in the UK around this issue. (BTW try reading the novel Crump – it opened my eyes to how the white liberal elite tolerable the intolerant and fascistic creed of Islam, because it is practised by those with a dark skin and a minority faith).
        At the moment, locals where I live are angry that a White Pride march wants to come to my town. The local Muslim head of some race relations organisation (and oh how much tax payers money supports that industry) says in a statement to the local paper that ‘we do not want people who preach hate coming here.’
        Well, they’re already here – in mosques up and down the country and Muslim schools, preaching hatred against non-Muslims, ex-Muslims, gays, Jews, if fact, anyone expect people who are just like them and follow their literalist version of Islam. It is astounding that most people don’t seem to be able to see the utter contradiction and hypocrisy in all this.

        • Varg Valdes

          First: Have you been to any of these mosques and seen these stuff take place? Otherwise you are preaching the similar hypocritical hatred to the one you believe yourself to be fighting.
          Second: It is still not the same thing. If Muslims started a mach to spread hatred towards non-Muslims and the guy did not speak up against that then you would have a point. But as is, you don’t. You are the hypocrite here.

    • Engy Sobieh

      Just because a “Muslim” wears western clothes and does not pray 5 times a day does not make him a “good” Muslim. You can do what Islam asks of you AND respect other people’s faiths and ideas as well.
      The problem with fanatics is that they do things in an extreme manner and enforce it on others, your “simple answer” is no different from the radical Muslims.
      The whole point is to be moderate and respect others, something EVERYONE should learn (Muslims &others)
      Just thought I should “enlighten” you a little.

      • Baron

        Enlighten us some more, Engy, why hasn’t one single mullah of the religion of peace issued fatwa on the two thugs who murdered the young soldier? If the mullahs are all not fanatics, does not the silence suggest to you there may be something not right in the ROP?

        • Hamza Hashem

          First of all the use of the term ‘mullah’ shows a bit of a lack of understanding, so let me help. Mullah is generic title occasionaly used for educated men or women who studied Islamic Sciences (Theology).

          That being said, the proper term would be Sheik (or some alternative spelling of it), such as Sheik Ibrahim Mogra who issued a statement with the Archbishop of Canterbury denouncing the attacks. Similar statements were issued by the Muslim Council of Britain, Faith Matters, and the Islamic Society of Britain to name but a few of the British ones who denounced it.

          • Varg Valdes

            His use of the word fatwa is also wrong. These people are only populists not knowing what they are talking about pretending blindly to having found some hidden truth by regurgitating sayings they form others pretentious ignoramuses who do the same.

          • KingGreen

            yes, the main problem in the world is kuffars not knowing the real definition of ‘Mullah’ and ‘fatwa’ – THAT’S the problem!

            imbecile

          • Varg Valdes

            No. But it shows that he has no idea about what he is pretending to preach about. Again you rely on strawmen.

          • Guest

            we know what taqiyya means

        • Gwangi

          Yes, indeed – why not marches by British Muslims demanding an end to murders in the name of Islam? Nope – instead they protect when someone draws a cartoon depicting their 7th century warlord hero, and want to kill anyone who dares criticise this false idol.
          I blame the white non-Muslim multiculturalist hypocrites – the political elite and those who run our failed education system and our media/BBC Islamophiliac propagandists – who allowed this state of affairs to grow like a virus amongst us and fester like a gaping wound. It will need radical surgery now to cleanse our society of people who think they can live according to their backward bigoted and intolerant values amongst us. We should enforce integrationism, like the French. Those who don’t like it can leave.

      • Muslim Comments

        A Multifaceted Fraud: Reviewing Irshad Manji’s ‘Trouble With Islam’
        http://podur.org/node/881

      • Gwangi

        ‘You can do what Islam asks of you AND respect other people’s faiths and ideas as well.’
        The question is: what is Islam asking you? There are many different interpretations of that. For example, nowhere in the Koran does it say women should wear headscarves or burkas – and in fact that habit was copied from early Byzantine Christians! Moreover, if you hold to the backwardness of interpreting an old book cobbled together over 2 centuries in the 7th century desert as exact instructions from Allah to obey and follow (and you argue if you don’t you are not a good Muslim, I think), then 1) you will contradict yourself, but more importantly, 2) you will have to believe that slavery, murder, torture, persecution of other religions, the killing of atheists and critics of the warlord Mohammed, marriage and copulation with children are all just tickety-boo OK and 100% right – and what God wants you to do. I find that vile and disgusting.
        The problem is with Islam and its followers’ insistence to read their holy book (most of it’s nicked from other sources anyway) as the literal word of God. Christians used to tie themselves in knots doing the same – then they learned to interpret the Bible and not read it literally. Islam ossified in the 11th or 12 century and is more backwards now than 1000 years ago. You are clearly ignorant of the history of Islam. Try and enlighten yourself before it’s too late.

        And wanting decent, modern, tolerant, pluralistic values – OUR country’s and culture’s values (which are far superior to the dark ages Islamic ones) to be enforced is NOT in any way a fanatical position. I do not believe we should tolerate hate-mongering Islamofascists; the multiculturalists and apologists for Islamic horrors like you do. That is the difference here. If you want to like by Sharia, then why not leave my country and go to one that reflects your cultures – the failed state of Pakistan perhaps or Somalia?

        • MWnyc

          Until your last paragraph, what you were arguing was actually close to what Irshad Manji has been arguing in this article and dozens of others like it.

          Incidentally, the idea that the Bible is the literal word of God and mustn’t be reinterpreted really came out of the Protestant Reformation; the Roman Catholic and Orthodox Churches understood that much of the Bible is symbolism and/or fable and that some parts, read literally, were more relevant to the era in which they were written than to subsequent centuries. (Some of the Old Testament, in particular, was understood to be a written version of oral history rather than inerrant divine law.)

          The Christians-tying-themselves-in-knots-trying-to-read-the-Bible-literally thing is part (not all, of course, but part) of why the Roman Catholic Church didn’t want regular people reading the Bible unsupervised.

          • Gwangi

            I think you’ll find that protestant Christianity emphasises the individual who must come to their own interpretation of the bible – hence there were many types of protestant and some read the bible literally.
            The quasi-fascistic corporate Catholic church did everything it could to keep power from the people – it wants to rule and use the people, take their wealth and control them. For centuries, the Catholic church persecuted and killed anyone who challenged it – anyone who said that science and Reason trumped what the bible said re how the world began and that the sun went round the earth; we now know those to be utter lies – or fables and metaphors at best. The behaviour or the Catholic church in the past is very similar to Islam now. Oppressive, fascistic, abusive, violent, hypocritical.

    • David Prentice

      Spot on.

    • GordonHide

      It’s part of our Western Enlightenment Values not to force our Western Enlightenment Values on anyone.

      • Ben Wilder

        Well if we allow enough people to come to this country who are utterly hostile to these Western Enlightenment Values sooner or later this country will no longer embody them. They will simply be one competing view among many, a bit of spice in the ‘melting pot’ of multiculturalism.

        • GordonHide

          So you are suggesting that Western Enlightenment Values be abandoned
          because you think they provide no method of defending Western
          Enlightenment Values?

          I think that Western Enlightenment Values
          are so superior to anything offered by Islam or any other philosophy on
          offer that they need no defence other than having politicians with
          enough backbone to stand by the rule of law.
          Your problem is that you have no faith in the system you feel to be under threat. Look at what our system offers:

          We have equality before the law.

          We have a lot less violence in our societies than your
          average Muslim country.

          We have freedom of expression.

          Spain
          (35 million people), on its own, finds more literature worthy of
          translation into other languages than the entire Muslim Ummah put
          together.

          We have created entire countries where no child need go to bed hungry.

          All religions, including Islam, may be freely practised.

          We have managed to keep corruption to manageable levels where it is more or less endemic across the Ummah.

          We generally succeed in changing to a new, more popular,
          government without violence.

          We have made great strides in gender equality.

          We have decriminalised homosexuality.

          We in Western style countries make almost all the scientific
          and technical advances.

          Western style countries dominate the tables in surveys about
          prosperity, honesty, longevity, literacy, education and personal happiness.

          Muslims are also people. This means that a fair proportion
          will
          be attracted to these features. Whether this involves them leaving
          Islam or adapting to a “Western culture friendly” form of Islam or some
          other compromise hardly matters. The end result will be there will never be a majority opposed to Western Enlightenment Values.

          • Ben Wilder

            I’m obviously not suggesting we abandon the Enlightenment values, just acknowledging that cherishing and preserving them is not a process well served by allowing the mass immigration of millions of people who do not share these values

            There is a light and day difference between Islamist culture as it is practiced in places like Pakistan and Somalia and the post-Enlightenment culture of Western Europe. Simply presuming that everyone who comes here will utterly transform their values, ideas and sense of identity is the height of naivety, especially when there is precisely zero evidence to suggest that this is occurring on any large scale.

          • GordonHide

            Is straw man building the best you’ve got. I haven’t suggested that “everyone who comes here will utterly transform their values” nor have I demanded that immigration should remain at the current level or even increase.

          • Daniel Maris

            It’s a numbers game. As long as Islam was in the 1-2% range we could safely ignore it. Now it’s racing towards 10% and likely to reach 15% or more within a couple of decades.

            My own view is that we have to ensure people are exposed to enlightenment values and we need to stop the mass indoctrination of children through unregulated evening and weekend schools.

    • Shoe On Head

      haha “End of”.

      spoken like a true celestial dictator

    • Pip

      Those who would choose to believe in any Religion in 2014 are backward thinking and closed minded to say the least. Humanity has evolved, time for such people to catch up and if they are incapable of doing so due to indoctrination or lack of intellect then they should keep their beliefs to themselves.

    • Iman

      Although I agree to most what you said Gwangi, I’d rather you said, Modern value and way, instead Western enlightenment values. Because Christianity succeeded in pulling away from dark times to modern times, but Islam has not succeeded in doing that yet

  • Cymrugel

    I wish you well but I think you are on a hiding to nothing.
    As an openly gay woman with a western lifestyle you are going to have little or no traction with the muslim population, other than those who are either purely cultural muslims or who have effectively given up the faith.
    I also fear that you are deluding yourself over the concept of itijihad.
    The idea of intellectual discourse was firmly squashed in Islamic civilisation at least 1000 years ago and dissent has not been tolerated since. The achievements of Islam have in any case been grossly exaggerated as these were frequently those of the conquered people’s living under muslim rule. A group of desert warriors swarming out of Arabia did not achieve high civilisation in a couple of centuries; they simply took ownership of the more advanced civilisation they overran – like the Mongols did in China.
    It is extraordinary that people with views that would be considered extreme in any other context are considered to be “moderate” if muslim. You seem to consider it progress that you have not actually received serious death threats following a TV debate – can you not see how bizarre this is; what low expectations you have?
    You are trying to turn a roaring lion into a tame house cat. It’s just not going to work

    • cassarjon@hotmail.com

      Sadly I agree. The moderates are on a hiding to nowhere. They’re seen as godless kufar too.
      The radical jihadis have as their goal total Islamisation of the entire world. We probably all know that’s unlikely but it’s not going to stop them trying, unto generations. They see that they have time on their hands. We can expect more rather than less violence world-wide.

      • johndowdle

        Relative to the size of the global population, Professor Stephen Pinker has recently released research in which he states that the available evidence indicates that the world has become a less violent place over time rather than more.
        In the past, according to biblical and other similar accounts, inhabitants of cities that refused to surrender to a besieging army were all put to the sword; in some cases, even their animals suffered the same fate – though why the animals were treated in this way has mystified me.
        Even today, most violence taking place in the world is of a much lower level than experienced in the past. Some of the wars which took place in medieval times resulted in death counts of between one third and one half of entire populations in places like Europe.
        We see nothing like that level of violence today. The difference today is that we are all much more sensitive to violence levels.
        This year, we mark the centenary of the start of the First World War.
        I do not believe anyone today could seriously contemplate the levels of lost and wounded lives they experienced then – could they?

        • cassarjon@hotmail.com

          Sadly the past is a distant country. What may have happened in medieval and beyond times has no relevance to the levels and nature of violence we are seeing today in modern, settled, civilised countries. Political Islam is on a dedicated crusade, across Africa, Middle and Near East, South East Asia, the ex Russian republics, and even into China. Europe is a hot bed of seething, dissatisfied Muslim youth. Young Muslims are flocking from all our countries to join the war in Syria which is becoming a defining element in their anger and religious identity.
          I wish it were so easy to sink back into the complacency of seeing the past as being more violence-ridden than today, but open eyes tell a different story.

          • johndowdle

            I understand what you are saying from the perspective of your own and general perception but remember that today the world has a global population of around 7 billion plus.
            From memory, global population in 1900 was around 2 billions and 1 billion or less in 1800.
            Proportionately speaking, the rate and intensity of violence has actually diminished, according to the research conducted by Professor Pinker.
            Violence today is much more highly publicised and our global reactions to violent events is much greater than in the past.
            During the First World War, battle casualties on all sides ran into the tens of thousands – in a single day – yet political and public opinion took this in its stride.
            Can you imagine that happening today? I don’t think so.

          • cassarjon@hotmail.com

            I doubt that WW1 casualties are a parallel to day’s killing fields.
            Granted the casualties were huge but today’s killings globally, from the Islamic wars fought on many fronts, are incremental, gathering speed year by year. Thousands are dying across all the regions I referred to.
            Anyway, both world wars were fought for land and resources, today’s mini wars are being fought to enslave the minds of non-Islamic people.
            What happened in the past is of little consequence to the family and friends of Trooper Rigby or the thousands of other allied soldiers and civilians who are dying as we write.

          • johndowdle

            I think the scale of casualties in the First World War were historically unprecedented – and remain that way. As you know, the numbers who died after the war ended because of so-called Spanish Flue was double the number of those who died in the war, mainly due to poor initial health.
            While the conflict in Syria has probably led to around 200,000 deaths and mas displacement of millions of refugees, it is still relatively small scale in nature.
            I agree with what you say about Lee Rigby but I consider the two men who murdered him to be insane lunatics. They did not represent anyone but their own twisted mindsets. It may well be that they were exceedingly gullible individuals who allowed religious ideology to poison their minds but there are innumerable others who consume the same religious brand who do not engage in such conduct.
            I am not at all sure where you get your figure of ‘thousands of other allied soldiers and civilians who are dying as we write’. Where are they dying?

          • cassarjon@hotmail.com

            I’m afraid that I don’t see the killers of Trooper Rigby, whom you describe as ‘insane lunatics’, to be alone in their quest to subvert Western civilisation and kill innocents, but that’s a matter of perception and where we choose to source our information. Certainly mosques across Europe and here in Australia are known to be breeding grounds for radical inculcation, resulting in hundreds of young Muslims going to fight in Syria. We can only shudder at what these men are going to be capable of when they return to their homes – if they return.
            As for ‘thousands of soldiers dying’, Afghanistan which, granted, is winding down for us all has been responsible for around 4,000 allied deaths, let alone deaths of Afghan soldiers.
            I’ve no idea how many people, civilians and soldiers, have been killed in the Islamic-inspired conflicts in Nigeria, Somalia and other parts of Africa, but that death toll must run into many thousands already.
            I’m afraid I can’t glibly dismiss the clear signs of the ongoing horrors of Islamic terrorism just by contemplating the casualties from WW1 and the Spanish Flu.

          • johndowdle

            I am not glibly dismissing any deaths – one is too many – but the figure of 4,000 deaths during the long period of conflict in Afghanistan does not even equal the number of British and Allied troops lost on the first day of the Somme offensive during the First World War. It is a matter of perspective.

            According to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gallipoli_Campaign#Casualties

            , 56.707 Allied and 56,643 Ottoman troops died during the Gallipoli or Dardanelles Campaign, with around 250,000 badly injured, sick, missing or taken prisoner on both sides.
            This level of deaths and other casualties simply would not be tolerated today. And global population then was very much lower then than it is today.
            As a humanist, I do agree that religiously-motivated crimes are a real crime against humanity and the only hope we can have is that as people globally receive better education and social welfare services, they will increasingly leave behind their primitive beliefs, whether animist, religious or any other form of totalitarian ideology.

          • cassarjon@hotmail.com

            At least we agree on the last paragraph.
            FJ

    • Liz

      A British woman received death threats for wanting the Bank of England to recognise a woman’s achievement in its lineup of famous faces.

      An American woman received thousands of them for proposing (just proposing) to make a series of videos about women’s representation in video games.

      There is a certain sort of man who reacts very badly to having their privilege threatened.

      • balance_and_reason

        Thats a very large generalisation from a very narrow sample…standard pressure group tactics. So women have no privileges in this country!! Keep trolling.

    • MWnyc

      “I also fear that you are deluding yourself over the concept of itijihad. The idea of intellectual discourse was firmly squashed in Islamic civilisation at least 1000 years ago and dissent has not been tolerated since.”

      Irshad Manji knows that very well and has addressed it in many other places. She even tells a story about a Muslim Sunday-school teacher she had while growing up in Vancouver telling her that “the gates of ijtihad have closed.”

      Her entire point is that it’s time to re-open those gates, and that’s what she’s spending her career trying to do.

      (I think she’d tell you that closing the gates of ijtihad was in itself un-Islamic, and she’d have a point.)

  • A N Analyst

    The folks that really did 911 are already here in full force, to have the goyim looking the other way at the muzzies. Bwahahahaha, is it pay per view posting now?

    • KingGreen

      fuck off troglodyte

      • A N Analyst

        A gigantic 110 story WTC ending up as only an 80 ft mound? Seeing is belieeving, sorry I am not “pulling” your leg either !!

        • crosscop

          Mohammad jumps on a flying horse and flies to heaven where he meets loads of other prophets and angels. He then haggles with Allah about how many times Muslims have to pray each day. Mo manages to eventually get Allah (who at first demanded 50) down to just 5. It’s true I tell you… just as true as the Jews blowing up the WTC!

          • A N Analyst

            Rabbi Ovadia made a deatbed confession, ask “pull” Silverstein.

          • crosscop

            OK, you’ve convinced me – the video showing Bin Laden confessing to it and saying it went much better than he had dreamed must be a fake. And his son-in-law was obviously making it up when described this –

            “Suleiman Abu Ghaith, who married bin Laden’s daughter Fatima, recounted a dramatic meeting with the jubilant Al-Qaeda chief in an Afghanistan cave complex on the night of September 11, 2001.

            “Did you learn what happened? We are the ones who did it,” Bin Laden declared.”
            Yes, it was obviously the Rabbi on his deatbed wot done it.

          • A N Analyst

            Seeing is believing, WTC7 down in only 6 seconds, 2 in freefall. The satanic devils invented (King David) Hotel bombing in 1946, followed by car bombing, followed by Syrian airplane hijacking, so skyscraper bombing was just an evolution. Ehud Brog is planning a further evolution iof this fine haganah tradition as we speak, the New York Hasidim/Hassidics in the Bronx are already fleeing.

          • Guest

            ‘seeing is believing”

            this is what the world SEES:

            – Islam IS the no 1 reason for world conflicts
            – Muslims slaughter Muslims and minorities in virtually every other Muslim country in the world
            – Muslims are gassing and eating other Muslims and filming it for enjoyment!!!!
            – Muslims in refugee camps are selling their child daughters to middle aged pedos, for fear they will get gang raped by other Muslims in the camps
            – Muslims shoot innocent school children in their sleep
            – Muslims using kids as mine checkers and suicide bombers

            this list is virtually endless. ENDLESS.

            AND THIS IS WHAT WE SEE BECAUSE THIS IS THE TRUTH

          • Guest

            ‘seeing is believing”

            this is what the world SEES:

            – Islam IS the no 1 reason for world conflicts
            – Muslims slaughter Muslims and minorities in virtually every other Muslim country in the world
            – Muslims are gassing and eating other Muslims and filming it for enjoyment!!!!
            – Muslims in refugee camps are selling their child daughters to middle aged pedos, for fear they will get gang raped by other Muslims in the camps
            – Muslims shoot innocent school children in their sleep
            – Muslims using kids as mine checkers and suicide bombers

            this list is virtually endless. ENDLESS.

            AND THIS IS WHAT WE SEE BECAUSE THIS IS THE TRUTH

          • A N Analyst

            Yes bibi satanyahu is on the side of these devils,, he even cooked up 8200 intercepts to con NATO into a bombing campaign, me I am on the side of Assad.

          • Guest

            bwahahahahhaa

            what a great life you must lead LOOOOOOOL

          • KingGreen

            all this guy does 24/7 is wipe his foaming mouth from all this ranting

            seriosuly, you think jews give a flying fig about what some brain dead anti semite thinks?

            jewish people have survived unbelievable odds, and have always punched way above their weight. the reason they have survived despite all odds, is BECAUSE of your kind.
            Your kind makes them stronger. The more you hate jews, for them being jews, the stronger, better and more successful they become:
            evidence A: Israel – smallest, youngest, not a drop of oil, attacked since creation. Today it’s at the forefront of computer science, medical technology, mobile electronics, agriculture and military development.

            evidence B: surrounding Muslim countries, full of oil, enormous land mass, hundreds of millions of inhabitants, full of jew hatred, are all killing each other right now, destroying their own countries, creating refugee crisis, famine, import and export terrorism and international wars.

            didn’t you say ‘seeing is believing’?

            well, believe this, then.

          • A N Analyst

            The goyim are awakening, you know what happens when they do, you can always come to our place when they do.

          • KingGreen

            you fucking idiot!

            jews aren’t scared anymore – they got nukes and military technology that most countries in the EU can only dream of, bish! Or have you not seen their neighbours? you know, their the ones using their arms on bombing their own countries LOL

            besides, you keep talking about SEEING, looks to me that we goyim are waking up to what Islam is really about – or have you missed THE TITLE OF THIS ARTICLE YOU KEEP POSTING ON???

          • A N Analyst

            Are you a madeline albright or are you a sumner redstone,your chosen hubris is coming through, or r u just a fucked idiot?

          • A N Analyst

            Bwahahahaha straight out of hasbara manual page 666

        • KingGreen

          oh FFS, go away you moronic conspiracy theorist

          what I SEE is muslims slaughtering muslims and everybody else – in dozens of countries, all over the world, every single day – yet they got ‘tricked’ into 9/11 right???

          the lowest common denominator of all wars, attacks and conflicts in the world is Islam! Muslims slaughter each other and others, without a single jew around, in their own countries, under their own laws, no ‘zionists’, no Mossad, no CIA needed. Just give them a gun and it’s only a matter of time until one of them is dead.

          not that I care to be honest, better them than us

          • A N Analyst

            Hasbara hound you are fooling nobody I can see through yer yarmulke, now go and take a “pally spitting” break, its included in your pay. Remember the goys can see through you now, dont make a fool of yourself like madoffs wife in court.

          • KingGreen

            LOL

            Long live Israel, while your kind goes on killing each other; how’s all that anti-semitism been working for you, pet??
            same way as for the ones you defend? Seems to me they’re life’s shite if you ask me….!!

            and btw, thanks for the purchase of your zionist computer – the IDF is very grateful

            todaraba

      • Daniel Maris

        …and make them watch the movies they produce in Hollywood…and hum those songs…and –

  • Alan_Lyons

    Bravo. The more moderate muslims who come out and make points such as these, the better for all.

  • roger

    Here in Bosnia i see as many women with head covering in a week as i would in a minute in London, for most Bosnian muslims there religion is a fact of cultural life and only the imported, Saudi funded, Hojas seem to make a fundamentalist fuss.
    I remember a time in the 60s when westerners took an interest in Sufism , the mystical form of islam now hated by the ‘wild men’ from the desert with oil money.
    Live and let live, don’t try to tell me what to think and i will leave you alone.
    What is the Koranic position on Cosmic Background Radiation?, no, i thought not!

    • crosscop

      “What is the Koranic position on Cosmic Background Radiation?”
      Err.. that it should be slaughtered with a very sharp knife?

      • A N Analyst

        And then sucked as the Talmud actually advises the rabbinic circumciser ! But keep the cattle far away from the Talmudic truths, they will not be pleased.

    • A N Analyst

      The East London Bengalis have been fed with free council housing and benefits for decades, but when the wahabi clerics turned up with saudi cash at the East London Mosque, all went ninja with anjum chaudhry threatening jabhat-al-nusra jihad on every curry addict at Brick Lane !!

  • Zorro

    Thanks for a breath of fresh air. As far as the cartoons go, since there is no accurate historical image of the Prophet any more than there is a definitive image of Jesus then responses should take that into account. Jesus in reality most likely looked like you typical middle eastern male.
    At any rate your open minded attitude makes you a pleasant neighbour to us all.

  • Rocksy

    Islam cannot be ‘saved’. It is what it is, a belief system suited to the nature of the people who have adopted it. It hasn’t been hijacked by anyone. Muslims who appear to be moderate are not living by Islamic principles but by Christian principles and values.
    If by some freakish twist of fate, Islamic forces were to succeed in invading
    Britain, do you think these ‘moderate’ Muslims would be waving the Union Jack? Or would they be screaming and chanting while they slaughtered their former British hosts?
    I despise their primitive belief system but I don’t fear it. These are in essence stupid, violent and primitive people.

    • Muslim Comments

      What a ridiculous and un-informed statement. It is obvious you have read very little.

    • paradise 33

      … and yours is a fairly stupid and primitive comment.

    • Hamza Hashem

      Islam does not need to be saved.

      The world needs to be saved from hate and fear mongers as well as from those who do horrific actions and justify it, be it by religion, statehood (military service) or racial and ethnic boundaries.

      Hate, ignorance and violence should not be accepted by anyone in any of these actions , especially when they are inflicting their ways upon innocent people.

      • KingGreen

        ‘especially when they are inflicting their ways upon innocent people.’

        i don;t think there is an arabic word for IRONY

        • Hamza Hashem

          Please don’t cherry pick my lines – take it in FULL context – Hate, ignorance and violence should not be accepted by anyone in any of these actions , especially when they are inflicting their ways upon innocent people.

          I stand by that 100% – do you disagree?

          • Gwangi

            But you cannot be anti-violence and anti-hate if you want to literally live you life according to the Koran and follow it word for word as a manual for living. Do you agree?

          • Hamza Hashem

            You absolutely can – there is far more depth to Islam then is widely reported by western media or by those Muslims twisting it to suite their own needs.

          • KingGreen

            of course not

            do you disagree with the statement, that as we stand today, the largest amount of Hatred, ignorance and violence, is mainly represented in which countries and under which ideology?

            go on, take a guess, broad sweep………

            until Muslims look into themselves and their ideology, stop pointing the finger and TAKE RESPONSABILITY for their squalor, misery, wars and bloodshed, they will always live like this: a tiny part sits on golden toilets and wipes with silk, while the larger part is shooting, raping, burning, beheading, gassing, eating and mutilating each other!

            yeah, whatta great ideology to come from, can I join please?

            LOL

          • KingGreen

            i didn;t cherry pick’

            i quoted you letter by letter

            just because you’re too stupid to make any sense, don;t think that we are

            we are not the ones defending a death cult

      • crosscop

        And of course, the Koran says that disbelief is the greatest sin of all – so according to Islam there are no innocent non-Muslims.

        • Hamza Hashem

          That is simply a deliberate and grotesque over simplification and flat our distortion of the truth.

          You cannot say the Quran says something i.e. there are no innocent Muslims without evidence. This is wild speculation.

          To you i say (with reference) “To you be your way and to me be mine” Quran 109:6

          • crosscop

            6:157 – “Now hath there come unto you a clear proof from your Lord, a guidance and mercy; and who doeth greater wrong than he who denieth the revelations of Allah, and turneth away from them?”

            7:37 – “Who doeth greater wrong than he who inventeth a lie concerning Allah or denieth Our tokens.”

            7:177 – “Evil as an example are the folk who denied Our revelations, and were wont to wrong themselves.”

            8:55 – “Lo! the worst of beasts in Allah’s sight are the ungrateful who will not believe.”

            9:29 – “Fight against such of those who have been given the Scripture as believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, and forbid not that which Allah hath forbidden by His messenger, and follow not the Religion of Truth, until they pay the tribute readily, being brought low.”

            And there’s plenty more in a similar vein. The books full of this stuff. The “worst of beasts,” eh? Well, at least we know where we stand.

    • GordonHide

      Christians who appear to be moderate are not living by Christian principles but by enlightenment principles and values.– Go read your bible.

    • cassarjon@hotmail.com

      And we’ve already seen what violent primitive people are capable of. From London and Madrid to Bombay and Bali, to New York and Boston. Islam has become a virulent virus of hatred that’s slowly spreading around the world.
      They have time on their hands!

  • Azhar

    Irshad, Maajid and Ed. Just look below for your supporters and go into any mosque for your detractors. Everytime I think of you I think of Shakespeare “poor players who strut and fret….signifying nothing”

  • DaHitman

    This article is complete bull, there is no such thing as a ‘moderate’ Muslim. Islam teaches violence and has been conquering countries since it was created by a paedophile, Mohammed did marry a 6yr old girl & he was a warlord, these are facts!

  • DaHitman

    It’s also known that 80% of Muslims in the UK are on benefits, a net-loss to us but the Lib-Lab-Con keep allowing more in

  • walstir

    “In the Islam of a millennium ago, ijtihad flourished. It was no coincidence that Islamic civilization led the world in curiosity, creativity and ingenuity.”

    The coincidence was that the most developed part of the Roman Empire was the part that the Muslim invaders had the good fortune to occupy. The intellectual center of the Roman Empire was always in the east – eventually the Romans themselves moved their capital from Rome to the Bosporus. The great centers of learning were in places like Antioch, Pergamum, Ephesus and Alexandría – all located in the east. The Muslim world occupied an area that had been the intellectual center long before the arrival of either Christianity or Islam. Saudi Arabia itself never led the world in curiosity, creativity and ingenuity.

    • Liz

      Empires are always powerhouses of invention because they have the means to do it.

    • MWnyc

      “The Muslim world occupied an area that had been the intellectual center long before the arrival of either Christianity or Islam. Saudi Arabia itself never led the world in curiosity, creativity and ingenuity.”

      True, but Arabia =/= the Muslim world.

      Baghdad, Cairo, Cordoba, Granada, Damascus, Isfahan, Herat, Samarkand and Delhi (among others) only became centers of curiosity, creativity and ingenuity after the arrival of Islam, and Alexandria, Aleppo, Constantinople/Istanbul, etc. did not cease being such centers once Islam arrived.

      • Dave Cockayne

        So according to you the fertile crescent, otherwise known to the world as the cradle of civilisation was a cultural backwater until Islam showed up? That is too bad for the Persians and Babylonians. Chucking Delhi on that list might also upset a few Hindus aswell, but nevermind.

        You are right about Cairo though, nobody visits Egypt to see the remnants of the Egyptian civilisation, the pyramids and the sphinx are of no interest to anyone at all.

        • MWnyc

          No, I didn’t say the Fertile Crescent had been a cultural backwater; that would be silly. Likewise for Egypt. That’s why I made a point of saying (in my last clause, which you may have overlooked) that Alexandria and Aleppo, among others, did not cease being cultural centers after Islam arrived.

          I deliberately referred to cities and not regions.

          Egypt has been a cradle of culture for millennia; Cairo wasn’t founded until 969. Baghdad, while near the sites of Babylonian, Seleucid, and Sassanid capitals, was only commissioned – as a new city – by Caliph al-Mansur in 762.

          Delhi I erred on somewhat: its site has been a city for around 5,000 years, though the city as we know it now – as a major cultural center and capital of a large and diverse country/empire, dates from the 13th-century Delhi Sultanate. And so on.

          (I went light on the Persian cities because I didn’t know which ones – cities – had a history as pre-Islamic cultural centers; turns out Isfahan did.)

          Even so, the literature, history, architecture, art and scholarship that those cities are known for having produced were produced under Islam. Muslim civilization – especially when most of Europe was in the Dark Ages and early Middle Ages – had lots of “curiosity, creativity and ingenuity”, even if the resource-poor Arabian peninsula did not.

          A thousand years ago, they were calling us barbaric – and back then, they were as correct as those of us calling them barbaric now are.

          And if the struggle to re-open “the gates of ijtihad” succeeds, Muslim civilization could be extraordinary again. (I just wish that struggle didn’t have to be led from the West for now.)

          • Dave Cockayne

            I think we are probably going to have to agree to disagree about the cultural enrichment of the world due to the fabled ‘Golden Age’ of Islam. I will point to the Lindisfarne Gospels and ask ‘what Dark Ages?’ You point to Mezquita or Alhambra and the whole exchange will just collapse into a ‘my ancient remnants are better than yours’ pissing contest of no consequence on the realities the world faces today.

            I first became aware of the ‘ijtihad’ revolution/islamic reformation/islamic enlightenment etc when Salaman Rushdie was speaking short after Iran issued the fatwa calling for his murder. Since then I have seen exactly zero progress in that direction, for every muslim prepared to speak out there are a thousand travelling abroad for jihad. If you truly think itjihad can drag Islam into the 21st century why are you commenting on a spectator article under a pseudonym instead of spreading the good news in mosques around the world?

            Would the answer be because the other 1.6 billion muslims on the planet would kill you for it?

          • MWnyc

            Why am I commenting on a Spectator article under a pseudonym instead of spreading the good news in mosques around the world?

            Not being a Muslim myself, it’s neither my job nor my place to spread the good news of ijtihad. I’d quite rightly be seen as an interloper by all concerned – including Muslim reformers such as Manji, Asra Nomani, Reza Aslan and Tariq Ramadan (just to take names familiar from the English-speaking world’s chat shows).

            Nope – on this issue, I’m ultimately just a spectator. (So where better to comment?) But at least I can cheer Manji and her fellows on, and I can try to convince some of my fellows that Islam as a whole and its followers need not be completely irredeemable – any more than Christianity and its followers are rendered completely irredeemable by, for instance, the Crusades, the Inquisition, the Thirty Years’ War, the suppression of indigenous cultures in the Americas and Pacific, and/or the horrid behavior of the Christian Right here in the States.

          • Dave Cockayne

            Could you provide me with a short list specifying which behaviours by the Christian right you find so horrid and why you object to them please?

          • MWnyc

            Nope.

            If the activities of the Christian right in the U.S. concern you, you’re free to do do some investigation on the Internet and decide which ones you personally find objectionable or not, as well as which ones strike you as good examples of general Christian belief and practice in the wider world.

            But hey, maybe you think that Westboro Baptist Church, or the guys who shot Dr. Barnett Slepian in his own kitchen and Dr. George Tiller in church during a service are representative of contemporary Christianity. Lord knows there are plenty of secularists who do.

            But they look to me like present-day perversions of everything good that Christianity has stood for and achieved – just as Al-Qaeda looks to me like a present-day perversion of everything good that Islam has stood for and achieved.

          • Dave Cockayne

            Lol, you say no then give me some examples anyway…

            Murdering people in the name of pro-life, yeah someone is really not understand the ‘pro-life’ part of ‘pro-life’.

            As distasteful as the actions of the Westboro lot are, I’m not aware of a single violent act by any of them, do you accept that there is an important distinction to be made between a bunch of loonies that wave signs and shout a lot, but ultimately never do any physical harm to anyone and a bunch of loonies that fly planes into buildings?

            Murdering people in the name of Jesus clearly goes against the teachings of Jesus but murdering people in the name of Mohammed is completely acceptable because Mohammed himself murdered and tortured lots of people and instructed his followers to do the same.

            How is Al-Qaeda perverting the teachings of Islam, they are doing exactly the same things that Mohammed did?

          • Cogra Bro

            In his Civilisation series, Kenneth Clarke said that nothing in Islam matched the glory of adornment of the Irish Book of Kells.

          • Dave Cockayne

            In the centuries we were pumping out Lindisfarne/Kells he is probably right. Interestingly if you fast forward to the 13th century and onwards there are illuminated manuscripts coming from Islamic sources (No human depiction of course). Amidst all the hype about the Islamic golden age, Islam didn’t start producing good illuminated manuscripts until it was over.

            Like these for example:
            http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/13/Mubarakshah_ibn_Qutb_-_Left_Side_of_a_Double-page_Illuminated_Frontispiece_-_Walters_W5592A_-_Full_Page.jpg

            https://www.flickr.com/photos/medmss/5751509004/in/set-72157626788030218/

          • Cogra Bro

            Learning flourished in areas conquered by Islam because it brought together many centres of learning and thought, chiefly Greek, Persian and Hindu, that had hitherto been isolated.
            Islam’s contribution to this efflorescence was its aggressiveness which conquered, not anything in the religion itself.
            When Islam reasserted itself after the relaxation which followed its vast conquests, saying that all that needed to be known could be found in the Qur’an. all learning other than Islamic knowledge died. Islam then produced nothing of interest in 700 years.

  • https://belasariust.wordpress.com/ solly gratia
  • Proudscalawag

    I remember seeing clips of ‘Innocence of Muslims’ on youtube and that was such a BAD film (right up there with ‘Moulin Rouge’) that I couldn’t help thinking, “It’s so bad that, if this were mocking Jesus and Christians, I as a Christian would want to make a ‘Rocky Horror Picture Show’ occasion of it for other believers”–in effect, mocking the mockers’ feeble attempt on my faith. Have any Muslims contemplated doing so with this film so awful that ‘schlocky’ is a charitable understatement?

  • N. Millar

    Awesome article, will be referencing some of these thoughts to inspire discussion in a paper I am writing. However, I believe the verse that Ed Husain is talking about is Qu’ran 3:8, is it not? Thanks!

  • Rillian

    You all really need to watch this. It will take 3 minutes of your life.

    http://youtu.be/bV710c1dgpU?t=2m57s

  • Muslim Comments
  • Muslim Comments

    The problem with this article is that she has written the same one numerous times. In addition, she does not mention the efforts taking place in scholarly circles — you know, people who actually know Arabic and have spent a lifetime studying Islam — to take a fresh new look at Quranic interpretations in light of modern realities. All this is brushed aside as if she was the only person who is speaking out, which is not true.

  • 70sgirly

    I’ve never heard of “ijtihad” Irshad but I doubt that it stands much chance of being revived in the 21st century.

    The radicals seem to be firmly in charge and only need click their fingers for a hate mob to be whipped up to protest about cartoons, dinner ladies, university dress codes etc. It takes some pretty strong indoctrination to able to do that and excludes “independent thought”.

    The furore which ensued after Majiid Nawaz’s tweet is what we have come to expect of Muslims. He should have had the unconditional backing of the LibDems and the MSM, free speech and all that, but their failure to do that means in effect they support the nutters.

  • Hamza Hashem

    I think it is a bit naive to not think that a history of colonialism and oppressive regimes installed after colonialism has not had its affect on the idea of Islam we see today. How many extremists do you see who are well educated, with stable political and ecconomic conditions? Those few you do see, how many were ‘converted’ to that mind set by people who come from situations that saw those same conditions previosuly mentioned.

    Good Muslims will speak against opression, tyranny and villainy no matter who is perpetuation it. Muslims should not spare the critism of other Muslims who are doing wrong just as they should nto for anyone else doing wrong – But we as Muslims should not be expected to appologize for the misinterpretation (or deliberate abuse) of Islam anymore then Catholics shouls be out appologizing for pedophiles.

    We as Muslims, humans, or whatever nation you come from – we must speak against thos who spread hate and teach violence. When you justify this hate and violence at either end, you justify the other ends reaction. It is an ugly vicious cycle.

    • Liz

      “How many extremists do you see who are well educated, with stable political and ecconomic conditions?”

      Bin laden was an engineer from a wealthy family from one of the richest countries in the world which has has the same government for decades.

      Most terrorists who plan mass murder in Europe and the US have been educated and middle class.

      • Hamza Hashem

        The Bin Ladden Argument!

        OK – I got this … Let me see …. Bin Laden was a well educated, and wealthy individual you are correct. While he may have planned numerous terrorist activities, I do not recall him blowing himself up did he?

        Most of the people who plan mass murder in Europe and the US (that are Muslim) are not always middle class and their education is not always assured either – but yes more often then what happens outside the US and Europe you are correct. Most people who do this though also come from countries or have family in countries that suffer the same plights of civil/social unrest, political instability and economic depression. The majority of the people committing such horrific acts are not doing them out of any genuine understanding of religion it is rather out of political or nationalistic brainwashing that uses religion as the shiny gloss to make it all look smoother.

        • Liz

          People who plan and carry out terrorist activities in other countries have to have both the financial means as well as the wherewithal to do so. That’s not your average poverty stricken villager, it’s students and professions.

          • Hamza Hashem

            Of all of thosee who carry out suicide attacks – not just 9/11, but all of them… How many are actually carried out by those such people? Very very few… The majority of them are planned by, endorced by, trained by, brainwashed by those people, but the ones who blow themselves up are not typically those people.

            This is why the leadership of organizations like AL Qaeda and others remains in tact … If not, then they would all be blowing them selves up correct?

            It is about manipulating people based on their circumstance – Be it education, ecconomics, politics, religion, family, or even mental – There is always a form of manipulation and in such you do not choose those with strong character and strength of will because they do not bend easily.

        • KingGreen

          oh, okay then I suppose…..

          let’s just shrug it off then, shall we?

        • Dave Cockayne

          Hamza, many thousands of muslims from Europe have travelled to Afghanistan, Iraq and Syria over the last decade for Jihad. If it is political, which British political party encouraged British citizens to travel abroad to kill British soldiers and did only muslims do this?

          If it is nationalistic why are these people not joining the British army and fighting alongside their countrymen instead of trying to martyr themselves for jihad?

          People of many nations and many religions suffer from political instability economic hardship but it is exclusively muslims that feel the need to go matryr themselves for jihad in far off lands. It is a problem with Islam, not politics or economics or poverty or corruption or foreign policy or colonialism or any other excuse you wish to dream up.

          • KingGreen

            any excuse to kill someone!

            it’s almost sexual, the way they talk about death and war and bloodshed, then they FILM themselves killing these people, and sing and chant with delight before posting it on youtube for the entire world to see – it’s a very very very sick religion and ideology

            it’s Islamic death-porn, they get off from killing people somehow

    • crosscop

      “Good Muslims will speak against opression, tyranny and villainy no matter who is perpetuation it. Muslims should not spare the critism of other Muslims who are doing wrong just as they should nto for anyone else doing wrong”
      Good Muslims are those who try to live their lives in accordance with Islam and take Mohammad as their role model. That is a big problem for non-Muslims and “bad” Muslims because “good Muslims” who emulate Mohammad are incredibly dangerous people. Let’s be honest – Mohammad oppressed and tyrannised his opponents – and a man who robbed, murdered and raped his way to power is definitely a villain.

      • Hamza Hashem

        Ahhhh …. It is so easy to promote hate in the we bit sized comment section of articles.

        I can safely say from your comments that you have not read the Quran or Islamic history in general (except what the hate mongers post for you) and I sincerely doubt you have ever taken the time to know any Muslims.

        This is where we differ – I have studied Islam, Christianity, Judaism, and several other religions before diving wholeheartedly into the one I believe in. I have taken the time to go to churches, mosques, synagogues and temples. I have sat and talked and argued with people numerous other faiths as we sat down and shared a meal or drank coffee. To this day I count myself fortunate to have met so many wonderful people from such diverse range of beliefs, I would highly recommend it to others.

        • crosscop

          I read the Koran all the time. ( Know your enemy, and all that). It’s next to me as I write. Pickthall version given to me by a Muslim convert friend ( now thankfully ex-Muslim). I have known quite a few Muslims and found most to be inveterate liars. They lie even when they don’t have to. I have also seen little children being brainwashed in the mosque and I’ve read the hate-filled literature they produce. eg “Go to Kashmir and fight the unbelievers. One Muslim is worth a hundred Hindus.”
          Mohammad was a mass murderer, slave dealer and rapist – and you cannot truthfully deny it as your own Holy Books describe what he did.

          • Daniel Maris

            You’re being kind to Mo in only describing three of his major moral failings. You could add looter, war criminal (killer of prisoners of war), destroyer of religious monuments, ethnic cleanser and torturer. All there in the Koran and Hadith.

            There is a game you can play – given Islam instructs its followers to emulate Mohammed as the perfect model (for a man at least), can you think of one – just one – thing he did which you would wish to take as a template for your own behaviour. I’ve never come across anything like that myself. Whereas there are many instances in Christianity, Buddhism and Hinduism where one hears of exemplary behaviour.

        • Gwangi

          If you have studied Islamic history then you will know how murderous the history of Islam has been – with its colonialism oppression of others, a tradition which continues to this day. Christianity has evolved; Islam ossified in the 12th century and is more backwards now than 1000 years ago.
          If you read the Koran – a mess of a book cobbled together in 200 years in the desert by many scribes – the lie that Mohammed memorised it from an angel then recited it is utter fantasy, and the Koran is not a perfect book. Its verses are jumbled and it needs a good editor. So if your Allah created that mess, he can’t be perfect can he? Maybe he should have started with The Very Hungry Islamo-Caterpillar instead?
          If you read that book in the same way people read the bible – as a metaphor, and NOT as some literalist word of god guidebook for life – and if you realise that it is full of things appropriate to the 7th century but not now – then you should do OK. Maybe then Muslims can grow up and join the 21st century, even if they are mentally yet to leave the 12th.

        • KingGreen

          if all what you have written is true, I am surprised you don’t come across as more informed, balanced and intelligent in your ‘arguments’

          i call another taqiyya

          all you seem to do is write ‘slogans’: not all Muslims are evil, there are bad people in every religion, hatred is bad, acceptance is good

          a lot of hot air, that is neither here nor there, especially since the entire article is about FANATIC ISLAM – for a reason: there are no jews or christians or Sikhs or Hindus running around mutilating and killing.

          other people don;t have such problems with their religious population, ONLY Islam does

          maybe it’s time you address the real issues, instead of squirming around with empty slogans and excuses

    • Dave Cockayne

      The only naivety would be accepting the ‘blame colonialism’ line. How do you explain the Armenian genocide, the behaviour of the Uygur, the brutal slaying of Hindus by the tens of millions or enslavement of tens of millions of Africans. The lets blame white people argument just doesn’t stand up to scrutiny when Mohammed was personally slaughtering unarmed Jews a thousand years before the age of colonialism and the followers have Mohammed have been following his violent fanatical example whenever they met them for the last 1400 years.

      • mohdanga

        Great points, Dave, all of them conveniently forgotten by the ‘Islamophobia’ mob. Muslims caterwaul about the Crusades never thinking that it was Muslim aggression and imperialism that led to these. Similarly, as you state, the millions killed in India by Muslims is never brought up. Where are all the Indian terrorist attacks in Muslim countries because of this? And let’s not forget the slave trade instituted by Muslims, again, rarely brought up in the press. No calls for reparations from Muslim countries, of course.

        • Gwangi

          Yep, I have noticed that too! But then slavery only became illegal in Saudi Arabia in the 1960s, and still goes in if effect. Other Muslim countries were even later – 1981 in Western Sahara, I believe?
          Because you see, slavery is said to be OK in the Koran, and if you believe in some silly literalist reading of that dogs dinner of a book, then you have to believe that is OK, (as well as killings lots of people in the name of Islam).

      • KingGreen

        too much truth mate

      • Hamza Hashem

        OK so lets start this off …. I DID NOT SAY “BLAME COLONIALISM” – So please for the sake of the truth I wish you people would stop saying that. Accusing me of something I did not say does not strengthen your argument.

        I specifically said it’s “a bit naive to not think that a history of colonialism and oppressive regimes installed after colonialism has not had its affect” – Yes that’s correct, I said “has had its affect” on the situation. I did not say it was the only cause nor the only blame. Apparently it is easier to argue if we make wild assumptions and not address the point raised… so once again let me be clear – I BLAME EVERYONE – REGARDLESS OF RELIGION.

        You accuse me of using colonialism as a line, yet you seemingly ignore any negative affect colonialism ever had? There is a reason colonialism no longer happens – It is never good for those being colonized. Who said lets blame the white people?

        As for the false allegations of Mohammed slaughtering Jews, I will openly challenge you to prove your point – and please do it in your own words with your own research and not just copy and pasting some tired old article passed from one hate site to another – I ask this because I have myself written at length about this in my own words, with my own research.

        • crosscop

          Are you seriously trying to deny that the men of the Banu Qurayza were massacred by Mohammad and that the women and children were take as slaves? “False allegations.” Really? It’s described in detail in the Hadith and alluded to in the Koran, you know.
          I have heard of taqiyya – but this is ridiculous. Over the years, I have seen Muslims coming out with all sorts of excuses as to why the massacre was justified and had to take place – but for you to actually deny that it happened is a first! Congratulations!
          You appear to be a Muslim version of David Irving. Here we have the very first Banu Qurayza denier.

          • Hamza Hashem

            YOu bring nothing new forward – nothing of your own work or words, just the same old tired false allegations based on blind hatered. …

            I am done here – however I will offer my full respone in my own words based on my own research – http://foreverislam.blogspot.com/2010/02/banu-qurayza-massacre-or-myth.html

          • Guest

            actually, cross cop makes a lot of sense
            it is you who keeps lying and excusing killers and posting some bs jihadi websites for us to look at

            if you spent half the time actually DOING something productive to SHOW where you stand, instead of just talking absolutely garbage and hysterically googling excuses, we might actually get somewhere

            but talking to someone to only uses taqiyya, is useless, and no wonder less and less and less people trust the word of a muslim – you want to blame us for that too?

          • crosscop

            “YOu bring nothing new forward ”
            Says someone who is living according to rules made up by 7th Century Arabia’s version of Charles Manson.

        • Gwangi

          What about atheists? Do you agree with the Koran that an atheist is ‘worse than a dog’ and should be left to die? Do you believe ex-Muslims should be killed as the Koran says? Do you agree with reintroducing the slave trade because the Koran approves of slavery?
          Moreover, do you drink alcohol like your beloved bloodthirsty warlord Mohammed did (he drank wine) and do you approve of his MichaelJackson-esque bedroom tastes? (he has 14 wives and one was only 6, y’know… and 9 when he ‘enlightened’ her with his great big Hadith…)

        • KingGreen

          oh, Mohamed DID NOT kill jews????
          yeah, he embraced them and gave them some hummus and then they had a shwarma party….

          dude, HOW stupid do really think we are?

        • Dave Cockayne

          Hamza, I read your blog post on your site and think that hardly qualifies as ‘doing original research’. Did you travel the desert on the back of a camel with an expedition of archaeologists and historians uncovering new sources and texts?
          Nope.

          Did you invent a time machine to go back in time and record the events?
          Nope.

          So you have no new sources or evidence to offer and instead just decide to cherry pick bits of the story you like and ignore the bits you don’t. You contradict yourself by first denying the events took place at all and then after arbitrarily deciding some sources are false (while offering no evidence) claiming the event as referenced in your remaining acceptable source ‘proves’ that the event wasn’t as bad as claimed and anyway there were extenuating circumstances.

          This incoherent strategy is identical to the tactics of holocaust, evolution or climate change deniers. Just throw as much doubt as possible out there, never admit you are wrong, constantly change tack and hope that something sticks before you get called out to much.

          It is also interesting to read the comments from other muslims on your blogpost, especially the comment by you on your own blog admitting that you are not a scholar. Why are you now demanding to be respected as a great source of authority in your comments here?

          Just addressing the other point you raised in your reply to me, you are the person that bought up colonialism as a cause of the current state of Islam, not me or any of the other people that called you out over it. Could you please tell me how exactly you know what my opinion of colonialism is? We have never met and I have never commented on the matter.

          Perhaps we can use this an exercise to build peace and harmony, I will freely admit that the British executed 65 Sikhs by tying them to the front of cannons and that isn’t a particularly nice thing to do. I will admit that the British killed hundreds of unarmed protesters at Amritsar and that it is perfectly reasonable to describe what happened as a massacre. Want to bring up gunboat diplomacy, dumping huge amounts of opium on China for profit and the invention of concentration camps in the Boer War? Go ahead, they are all very bad things.

          Any chance of you admitting that Mohammed also did rather a lot of very bad things and that those actions should be condemned?

          • KingGreen

            EXCELLENT EXCELLENT POST!!!

          • crosscop

            Spot on, except that the people firing the guns during the Amritsar Massacre were Indians and Gurkhas… and were led by an Irishman. I like to point out that fact when some Irishman starts ranting about British imperialism.

          • Hamza Hashem

            Dave Cockayne

            “Research: the systematic investigation into and study of materials and sources in order to establish facts and reach new conclusions”

            I find it bemusing that you would think one needs to go to
            such lengths to actually do research and draw their own conclusions as I am sure you have done in your own such research and hatred for Islam. If you read, in context what I had said, it would have been clear that I referenced original research instead of the tired tactic of copy and pasting the exact same lines from the anti-Islam hate sites. So instead of being silly let us stop talking of time machines and the like and realize what research means .

            I ask before I indulge your ego by even addressing your
            assertion and critiques of my work – What research have you done, what sources have do you have that this ‘massacre’ ever happened? I have offered up my work
            and if you have nothing of your own to validate your opinion except your criticism of my work, then dare I say your position is not very strong. Or are you just as likely to copy and paste those same old stories?

            Let me start off that you only read my article (if you read it in its entirety) so as to be able attack my work, which means you took little effort in actually trying to understand it. I did not contradict myself – I clearly state the event did not happen, especially as it is being reported now. When I referenced there were extenuating circumstance you just take in context, a) There was treaty between Banu Qurayza and the Muslims which they betrayed in a time of war, this is called treason and even today is considered a capital offense in most countries, and b) there were extenuating circumstances of how this event became
            documented the way it was. Now I want to address your blatantly false allegations if me offering no evidence, quite to the contrary I offer an tire section to it entitled “Documentation – Question Methodology” to which I
            clearly lay forth my evidence such as the only time this event was documented was in Sirah Rasul Allah by Ibn Ishaq, which no longer exists but had been retold by his student Ziyad al Bakkai who based his work on Ibn Ishaq’s but that was also lost over time resulting in the only surviving retelling of ibn Ishaq’s work is by third hand information by isb Hisham who based his work on
            al Bakkai’s work who based his work on Ibn Ishaq.

            Incoherent strategy? Are you reading your own response? You are doing the very thing you accuse me of – throw as many accusations against me as possible and see what sticks?

            Now you move on to accuse me of demanding respect as a great source or authority… where do I do this demanding, I looked back and could not find it? I have simply said that I unlike so many others who make these accusations have actually done research and have actually tried to investigate and put forth my conclusions for everyone to read. I have simply asked that people not be mindless sheep following the hate espoused the countless ati-Islam websites. All I have asked for is that people put forth their own original thoughts and comments instead of recycling from other websites.

            To address your point about Colonialism – I have repeatedly said it, and written it as clearly as possible – I never said colonialism was responsible for the state of Islam, that is a blatant lie – I said it was a bit naïve to think it had no effect on the idea of Islam we see today. As far as your opinion of Islam I simply said that from your response “yet you seemingly ignore any negative affect
            colonialism ever had” – So lets be clear about what we each said.

            If you wanted real dialog, might I suggest that you ask that since you have listed things the British (a people) could be condemned for that I offer the same of Muslims (a
            people) and not that of an individual man. If this was your true intention – open peaceful dialog – then I will respond with a sure footed yes. There are countless things that Muslims could and should be held accountable for. Islam
            does not support killing innocent people (and no – not being Muslim does not negate one being innocent), nor does it support blowing up women’s schools, or rape. Any Muslim who justifies these sorts actions against anyone, Muslim or not, I will openly denounce and condemn
            them. I hope this helps bridge the gap for ‘peace and harmony’ or at least offers a place for open no offensive dialog.

          • Dave Cockayne

            Hamza, my sources are exactly the same as yours, the quran, the hadiths and the sira. All of these are available to read for non muslims. You are choosing to ignore the sources which quote a figure but all the other sources still agree that the event happened, men were killed and the women and children were enslaved. You have picked one event where there is controversy between the which authors are accepted by sunni/shia hadiths.

            I’m interested in how you defend some of Mohammed’s other actions like:
            Marrying a 6 year old girl and having sex with her at age 9.
            Killing a woman’s entire family, forcing her to convert and marrying her.
            Ordering the torture of a person to steal their possessions.
            Owning slaves.
            Enslaving large numbers of people.
            Raiding caravans to steal goods and killing the owners.
            Executing people for criticising him.

            This is why ijtihad will fail, because it is impossible for a muslim to admit that Mohammed was a bad man that did bad things. You can’t claim that Mohammed was a perfect man and founder of the perfect religion and reconcile his actions with modern standards of behaviour. All that itjihad will achieve is that a few muslims shift more to sufi style practices and do the islamic equivalent of having theological debates about how many angels can fit on the head of a pin but it will have no impact on how muslim view the barbaric acts of Mohammed.

            Try it. Pick a single thing off the list and say Mohammed was wrong and did something bad. You can’t do it can you?

    • mohdanga

      Ah yes, let’s blame ‘colonialsim’ and ‘imperialism’ for Muslim terrorist attacks. Second and third generation Muslims born in Britain are more fundamentalist and willing to condone terrorist attacks and Sharia than their parents and grandparents who came to the West to supposedly get away from their Islamic utopias. What colonialism and imperialism have these second and third generation ‘Brits’ experienced?
      Britain settled America, Australia and New Zealand. You can argue that this was ‘colonialism’ but it was no different than what every other culture did throughout history, except that non-white countries don’t and are not expected to self flaggelate ad infinitum for this. Britain may have had an empire that stretched around the world but in many places there was no colonization. India at the height of British rule had about 200,000 civil servants and military personnel running the place….compared to 350 million Indians. They did not force the Indians to give up their religious beliefs, customs, etc.
      Malaysia, Indonesia, Iran….all of these have been free of the yolk of imperialism anywhere from 35 to 70 years and are now run by Muslims. Why aren’t Muslims to blame for the problems in these countries? How’s Iran been since the mullahs took over?
      It’s ironic that you argue that Western imperialism is the cause of Muslim terrorism yet forget that Muslim imperialism in the 7th through 14th centuries resulted in most of these countries suffering under Islam. Maybe that’s the issue.
      The 19 hijackers on 9/11 were all well-to-do Muslims in the US on student and other visas. They enjoyed all the trappings of our ‘decadent’ Western lifestyle….doesn’t sound like they were too impoverished to me.

      • Hamza Hashem

        Welcome to the discussion and thanks for the reply… Please allow me to retort.

        First and foremost, I would like to ask people to please
        read what was said before posting and ranting, that being said let us focus on my point. I never said colonialism or imperialism was the sole cause of anything rather that you cannot overlook its influence upon such things. Muslims should all oppose villainy, tyranny, and oppression regardless of who is inflicting it on who. Muslims should stand up against other Muslims who oppress
        Muslims, Christians or whomever just as they should stand against anyone else who does such heinous crimes. Muslims can do horrible things just as easily as Christians, Jews, Whites, Blacks, or anyone else – People are people and those
        things that shape a person and what they will do tend to be numerous including, social, religious, political, economic and educational.

        Now your statement about second and third generation Muslims
        is a fallacy. There are indeed second and third generation Muslims who do exactly that, just as there are first generation Muslims (converts) who are likely to as well, however there is just as much and presumably whole lot more who are proud Brits who go about their days just as everyone else – worrying about
        their bills, families, work, etc…

        Are we seriously using American, Australia and New Zealand
        as your examples? Let us ask the indigenous peoples of those countries who lost 80% – 90% of their populations. What of South Africa, Vietnam or any number of third world countries who suffered through colonization and came out no better
        off. To paraphrase Henry David Thoreau, it seems
        the best colonist was the one who colonized the least.

        Now if you want to specifically address the failings of countries that are Muslim run and have no history of colonialism, I would be more than happy to – just let me know which ones those are. That being said – I make no excuse for failed leaders regardless of whether or not they are Muslims, there may be existing
        circumstances that made ruling certain lands more difficult for sure, but yes Muslim leaders who have betrayed the trust of the people and used Islam as a device to maintain power are just as guilty if not more than the preexisting colonial powers.

        For the record – Regardless of how many times you say it – I am not now, nor was I ever arguing that ‘Western imperialism is the cause of Muslim terrorism’ – Read what I said, ‘it is a bit naive to not think that a history of colonialism and oppressive regimes
        installed after colonialism has not had its affect…’ – So before you try and convince everyone I was not accepting blame for Muslims, please be truthful to them and yourself – I BLAME
        EVERYONE!

        So now instead of trying to work with positive people to
        help promote better understanding and positive image, instead of trying to make the world better people like you come here to spread hate and blame Muslims, leaving people like me having to come here and correct the misconception and blame the whole damn lot of them – including you or anyone else who wants to
        spread hate. Not all Muslims are evil, just as not all Jews or Christians are. We cannot let the extremist determine our own moral compass, our own values and beliefs. We cannot let those others spread hate, regardless of who they are and how they justify it, we cannot let them win by buying into it.

        • mohdanga

          Ah, so I state facts which is your mind is ‘hate’, got it. And I love how you put yourself forward as the arbiter of what can be discussed, what is ‘hate’, and who the haters are. What specifically in my post was ‘hateful’??
          As for your comment about the evils of white imperialism, isn’t it ironic that the citizens of the countries whose ancestors ‘suffered’ under it can’t wait to get into the UK. Look at the millions of Indians, Pakistanis, Muslims and blacks that live in the UK.
          If dreaded whitey hadn’t colonized the Americas, Australia and New Zealand some other race would have. Muslims swarmed down onto India killing millions but this is never discussed. How about the Mongols rolling across eastern Europe killing millions? Imperialism happened before whitey got to it. Funnily enough, the colonized countries have the highest standard of living. If not for colonization Australia, New Zealand and the Americas would be the equivalent of New Guinea….don’t see many Muslims and ethnic minorities wanting to emigrate there.
          And I think you are deluding yourself about 2nd and 3rd generation Muslims in Britain.
          http://www.persecution.org/?p=6326&upm_export=print

        • crosscop

          “Not all Muslims are evil, just as not all Jews or Christians are.”
          True – it’s Islam itself which is evil. It’s followers are just deluded and brainwashed. Not all Nazis were evil, either – Oskar Schindler, for instance. Hitler and Mohammad were both thoroughly evil men, though – and so are the ideologies that they dreamt up.

          • KingGreen

            oh, great minds think alike, just wrote the same thing

          • Cogra Bro

            The Nazis admired Islam for its hatred of the Jews and its aggressive qualities.

            The Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, a great uncle of Yasser Arafat, spent years in Nazi Germany during WW2 as an ally of the Nazis, because their hatred of the Jews coincided with his own.

        • KingGreen

          “Not all Muslims are evil, just as not all Jews or Christians are. ”

          Islam is evil – just take one look at what it’s done to its’ believers

      • Cogra Bro

        Muslims settling in Britain is colonisation. In some areas, you would think you were in Pakistan or Bangladesh, not Britain.

    • Gwangi

      Yet again, a Muslims says of course Muslims should be against violence, murder and inciting hatred BUT…
      and then said Muslim proceeds to justify the violence, murder and hatred he has just pretended to condemn!
      It is NOT the fault of ‘colonialism’ that Islam ossified in the 11th or 12th centuries. It is the fault of Muslims.

      It is not the fault of Western foreign policy either – that is utterly irrelevant; and anyway, why the f shouldn’t we have our own foreign policy – we don’t have to ask the permission of Muslims to rule OUR lands! And anyway, most Muslims are killed by other Muslims, y’know! Not Westerners.

      Sadly, violence runs through Islam like blood in its veins. That is the problem and maybe there is no solution. or maybe Islam is just 100 years behind Christianity?

      No angry Muslims protesting against Muslim violence and oppression though, are there? Plenty who like to demonise the West and Jews and whites and Christians and blame them for all the woes of Muslims worldwide. Plenty who want to kill anyone who dares to criticise a 7th century warlord or draw a cartoon of him (and of course offensive cartoons about Jews appear daily in the Islamic press worldwide).

      • KingGreen

        Muslims killing Muslims is totally cool dude – didn;t you know that?

        • Gwangi

          But most Muslims think, due to Islamist propaganda and the lies of the left, that most Muslims are killed by Westerners because they are Muslim.
          That is the script, and Muslims do their best to fit the facts into it, even if they are lies. The script says that Muslims are poor wickle victims of the nasty Jew-controlled West, and that they would be ever so nice and cuddly, if only we changed our foreign policy… Funny really, because the Muslims Brotherhood and Saudi Arabia have been spreading Islamofascism around the word since the 1920s.
          Most Muslims are just full of it, frankly.

          • KingGreen

            isn;t it amazing how 0.2% of the world’s population ‘control’s nearly 35% into killing each other??

            jews must have some sort of zionist mind lasers, or something

      • Hamza Hashem

        Gwangi

        While I thank you for taking the time to respond to me I would like to say you missed the whole point I made so please allow me to respond and reiterate.

        Let me be clear so you can no longer misconstrue what I mean – All Muslims should be against the violence and oppression inflicted upon innocent people. Period, end of story – no ‘but’ included. Now before you jump in arms regarding the use of ‘innocent’ I am referring to anyone who is not oppressing or murdering (beating, etc) other people. I do believe in the right to self defense as a right of ALL people. So lets be clear – Muslims killing Lee Rigby on the streets of London was horrific and they should be put to death for it, Muslims oppressing non Muslims simply because they are non Muslims is also wrong and must be rectified. ALSO – American Srgt Bales murdering 16 Afghan villagers (mostly women and children) is just as horrific and he too should be put to death, Countless soldiers who are in other countries who have targeted civilians or civilian property for abuse are also horribly wrong, just as all of those who have killed innocent Muslims in response to what has happened half way across the world is just as bad.

        Moving on… My point is that you are completely naive if you feel colonialism had no effect in the assumption of power by the countless tyrants and despots throughout the Middle East and elsewhere – This has been proven countless times throughout history by numerous books and reports.

        Now when you rant about ‘Western Foreign Policy’ you then declare that you don’t have to ask permission of Muslims how to rule your own lands… Technically speaking ‘Foreign Policy’ is a government’s strategy in dealing with other nations. How is that related to how you rule your own lands? Furthermore, Muslims born in America are American just as Muslims born in England are British – so technically it is their land as well.

        Muslims have staged demonstrations against violence and oppression committed by other Muslims as well as the countless social and communal outreach programs that do the same while working with different communities as well as other religious institutions.

        Your anger and insults against Muslims and Islam is the same as the very thing you are ranting against – So lets turn it around to illustrate the point in your words –

        “No angry Christians/Jews (Westerners?) protesting against Christians/Jews (Westerners?) violence and oppression though, are there? Plenty who like to demonise the Arabs and Islam and Muslims and blame them for all the woes of the West worldwide. Plenty who want to kill anyone who dares to criticise or question the status quo especially if it disagrees with popular nationalist interests.”

        If you disagree with the above statement which could be construed as accurate just the same as your earlier rant considering the well over 100,000 civilian deaths in Iraq alone – then perhaps you save your hate and turn it into something more positive.

        Stand against what is wrong without hating and entire religion – you have automatically alienated nearly 2 billion people without knowing about them, rather it being based on rhetoric and hearsay.

        • crosscop

          According to Islam, Lee Rigby’s killers did nothing wrong. Feel free to point out where – according to Shariah – they committed a crime.

        • Gwangi

          Yes, but, no protests or marches on the streets by Muslims protesting against the terrorism of murders committed by Muslims against innocent people. And yet, Muslims get very loud and active whenever someone published a cartoon they don’t like. That speaks volumes, and suggests Muslims tacitly support the murder to anyone who dares to draw a cartoon of their 7th century warlord prophet or who criticises him.
          Colonialism? The British overthrew the vile Mughal Muslim rulers in India, and then the Ottomans. Mohammed was a colonialist! He and his army invaded Christian north Africa and gave the population and choice: convert to Islam or die. Funny how Muslims love colonialism and imperialism when Muslims do it eh?
          Britain’s foreign policy is not anti-Muslim at all – we intervened in Bosnia to protect Muslims. Saddam was overthrown because he was vile; sadly, Muslims just as vile replaced him. We had a right to take action in Afghanistan to stop terrorism being planned there; that has succeeded – Osama was defeated.
          The real problem is with Islam and Muslims – NOT ‘The West’, which is the usual Muslim lie. Islam needs a reformation and needs to stop adhering to a backwards, literalist, puritanical, Wahabi version of Islam – the one Saudi oil dollars has been promoting around the world for decades. In the West, we tolerate anyone of any religion; there is no law discriminating against Muslims in the UK (though most Muslims here are lower class and backwards, unlike Hindus, so tend not to achieve all that much – their daughters are forced into marriage and don’t work either).
          Also, Most Muslims who are killed in the world are killed by Muslims. Learn some facts and stop wallowing in your Islamic pity party puddle of fabricated victimhood. Your rant is just the usual Muslim excuses.
          Salman Rushdie is right. When he was asked what we in the West should do in response to Islamic extremism, he said we should not give up our values one inch and instead we should reinforced and strengthen them. The fact is, our values are better than yours, because ours are tolerant, decent and modern, and yours are barbaric, bigoted and murderous. Period.

          • KingGreen

            too many historical facts and accuracies

            he’ll get confused and won;t be able to pin point your ‘hatred’ correctly

          • Cogra Bro

            I asked Muslim shopkeepers down my local high street what they thought of 9 / 11.

            One out of three were actually happy about it. Those are the ones who were honest , in my opinion.

        • KingGreen

          NOBODY kills as many Muslims as other Muslims!

          next point…

    • MWnyc

      “I think it is a bit naive to not think that a history of colonialism and oppressive regimes installed after colonialism has not had its affect on the idea of Islam we see today.”

      Fair enough – IF you include the Mongol hordes and Tamerlane as colonialists, which they were. (Those conquests, as I understand it, seem to have been the events that shut the gates of ijtihad for good.)

      And you could very well argue that the original Muslim conquerors in the 7th and 8th centuries were colonialists in their turn.

      • Cogra Bro

        The Islamic conquests of India was described by The historian / philosopher Will Durant as the bloodiest in history. As a result of it the population of India is estimated to have declined by 80 millions.

        Sultans made it a point to murder 100, 000 ‘Polytheists’ a day and enslave similar numbers

        Then of course there were the Muslim massacres of Christian Greeks, Armenians, Chaldeans and Assyrians in the Turkish empire.

        Etc etc etc…

  • Muslim Comments

    A Multifaceted Fraud: Reviewing Irshad Manji’s ‘Trouble With Islam’
    http://podur.org/node/881

  • Dave Cockayne

    I suggest that as a muslim you read the Koran and study the life of Mohammed some time. We are discussing a man that that spent his life as a thief, a rapist and a warlord.

    A man that married one of his wives at age six and had sex with her at age nine, another of his wives he married within 24 hours of slaughtering her entire family in front of her.

    A genocidal narcissist that personally ordered the murder of 900 unarmed and captive prisoners of war and put to death any person criticised him.

    It is utterly impossible to be a good person by any modern definition of the word ‘good’ and to also be a good muslim, how exactly do you suppose we bring critical thinking skills to an ideology which punishes criticism with death?

    Many, many people have attempted to reform and moderate islam through the centuries and all have failed, usually because they have been murdered for their efforts. Why not just face reality and become an apostate leaving the 7th century barbarism behind?

  • Kirsti J Dahlen

    Yes, yes, yes. My impression is (based on meeting students every day) that some sort of “built in” fear lies behind many actions and talk? A fear, or constant uncertainty, if what their parents and imams speaks when i comes to living rules really is what they need to follow every minute (also in their thoughts!), not to end up being understood (by their profet) as a misbeliever. It seems as if so many hours of their days are focusing on this, and therefore we very often miss their view, actual participation and individual contribution to whatever we are discussing in class. Muslim students very often speak like they already know the truth, because there is only one truth and that truth has been set by their religious and cultural (same?) surroundings. This article should be discussed in every highschool, college and universityclass all over the world. Also because it is important to the understanding of all religious “man-made-speach” that always have and still (!) surrounds us. Thank you.

  • ItinerantView

    The conversation between reformists and literalists has been going on for centuries.The literalists invariably use violence as they claim is sanctioned by the Koran,Hadith and life of Mo for apostates,heretics and critics, the moderates self-censor or are assassinated.
    How many critics or reformers already have to live under police protection ?
    I’m getting really bored having to watch an attempted reformation of Islam, it has brought nothing but grief to Europe and has had numerous unpleasant consequences for free speech and expression.
    Consider this,the Islamic reformation has already happened and that was Wahabbism,the Saudis control the narrative and until mosques,madrasses and the like stop taking Wahabbi petro-dollars that isn’t going to change.

  • Liberalism Is Nonsense

    At the end of the proverbial day, preserving liberty is up to each of us: http://www.amazon.com/dp/B0094KY878

  • johndowdle

    There are – I think – two aspects to this article which I think should be considered.
    Firstly, as a humanist, I consider all religious beliefs to be based upon pure fantasy.
    It would be whole lot better if all religionists – including self-labelling Muslims – simply stopped wasting their time and other valuable resources on religion.
    If they were to modernise themselves they would join to real secular world of today and focus their efforts on achieving a much better world; one in which scientific and other forms of progress daily yield an enhanced quality of life for all humankind.
    Secondly, I do think we should all ask serious questions as to why religious extremists act in the ways that they do? I think it is partly connected to a lack of decent education and the deliberate attempts by senior religionists to keep their followers ignorant. Additionally, I think it is also the shock of progress which affects mainly young men in many societies around the world, which is generally reflected by rising levels of misogynism and attempts to control women more closely.
    This is true not only in the case of countries where Islam is consumed but also in many other countries where other brands of religion are consumed too.
    Ultimately, religion is not a racial or national characteristic but a cultural artefact.
    We have choice to consume or not to consume it. I prefer more wholesome forms of secular culture such as the arts, music, literature , etc. Who needs religion?

    • jjjj

      You, a humanist? You are nothing but a run-of-the-mill antisemite.

      • johndowdle

        Typically, like all other racists and Zionist apologists, you do not know what you are talking about. You may be happy parading your ignorance for everyone to see, but my considered advice to you is to keep your bigoted fantasies to yourself.

        • jjjj

          The day I want some ‘considered advice’ from a racist like you will be the day hell freezes over. You can march all you like with your Kaffiyah, your slogans and your hatred. I’m on the side of the victims, on the side of humanity.

          • johndowdle

            If you truly are on the side of the victims, why don’t you join Jews for Justice for Palestinians (in the UK) or Jewish Voice for Peace (in the USA). I always support them.
            I don’t wear cultural neckwear or any other form of wear.
            I leave hatred to others as it is unproductive for me.

          • jjjj

            Who said I’m Jewish? Your racism is palpable. Nice try at deflecting the debate from the topic of this article: Islam.

          • johndowdle

            You don’t have to be Jewish to join them or support them.
            Why don’t you, then? Or are you so blinded by your own bigotry that you refuse to join pace-loving Jews in achieving a fair settlement in historic Palestine?

          • jjjj

            A fair settlement is that Israel be allowed to live in peace. A fair settlement is Palestinians recognising that they don’t have the monopoly on suffering and also means compensation for the Jews who had to flee Arab countries after 1947.

          • johndowdle

            What you say is reasonable – up to a point. That point, of course, is the fact that ben Gurion forced the issue on the UN through Truman to allocate 55 per cent of the land of historic Palestine to a new state of Israel – which comprised only 30% of the population, while the other 70% of the population was allocated only 45 per cent of the land. Unfair?
            Predictably, the Palestinians rejected the offer and ben Gurion ordered the Haganah to implement Plan Dalit, which resulted in around 25,000 Palestinians being killed and around half the Palestinian population being driven out of historic Palestine – around 800,000 people in all.
            This, in turn, led to countries in the vicinity of historic Palestine driving out Jews who had lived their for centuries – or, in some cases, possibly for millennia. Of course, the Zionists encouraged them to leave and move to Israel, in order to add to the critical mass of the population of the new state.
            In Iraq, Mossad agents planted bombs in Jewish areas in order to drive Iraqi Jews out of Iraq and on to Israel.
            So, part – or possibly a substantial component – of the responsibility for the movement of Mizrachi Jews into Israel was down to ben Gurion’s Zionists.
            Most of the migrant Jews spent, in some cases, years in squalid refugee camps inside Israel and they are still being treated like second-class citizens now.
            So, as you can see, it is not a simple matter to allocate responsibility where Jewish refugees from countries like Iraq, Jordan, Egypt, Lebanon, Syria, etc. is concerned.
            As I am sure you know, there remains a small Jewish community in Iran, though their numbers have been steadily diminishing. Nevertheless, the Iranian authorities appear to be perfectly happy for them to remain.
            Ultimately, it was the Zionists’ ethnic cleansing programme which brought about a mass population movement across the entire area so my conclusion is that it is the responsibility of not only Israel but also their original backers – Britain – and their subsequent backers – the USA – to meet all the costs for all refugees wanting to return to historic Palestine.

          • amie

            plan Dalit, the Mossad bombs in Iraq..That’s what was missing from your previous comments. I think you have now ticked every single false anti zio myth going. You can retire now.

          • johndowdle

            I am sorry if the truth hurts and that you find it difficult to accept it. In the case of Britain, I have to say it was complicit with the Zionists at the time. If the British government had wanted to, it could have intervened and stopped many of the excesses of the Nakba but for reasons as yet not understood chose not to. In choosing inaction in the face of Zionist aggression against the Palestinians, I think it reveals a level of racist attitude which was commonly shared by the British administrators of historic Palestine and the Askenazim European Jewish immigrants who staffed the ranks of the Haganah. Mote importantly from today’s perspective, there is a failure on the part of the Zionists to continue pursuing their goal of Eretz Israel. It is obvious that they will not stop until they have conquered all the land from the River Nile to the River Euphrates. That, or bring down all existing civilization in the process. If you live outside Israel, you should be concerned about Israel’s Sampson Option – if not for yourself, then for your children and all the other young children in their extended families.
            Zionist Israel could yet be the death of you all.

          • jjjj

            This comment of your has convinced me that you are truely evil. Not insane but a living breathing neo-Nazi: The lie about the borders ane your paranoia about the Jews. You profess not to be antisemitic but anti-Zionist when it clear that should Israel fall the Jews worldwide will be next in line and you will applaud and participate. Israel is just the hors d’oeurves for you and your ilk, just as Czechoslavakia was for Hitler.

          • johndowdle

            I would not pin your hopes on promotion in the ranks of the hasbara ministry with your comments above.
            It could actually see you being demoted instead.
            What you have failed to grasp is the more you deal out the bogus accusation of antisemitism card, the less impact it has.
            But don’t let me stop you; you keep throwing it around all over the place so that people everywhere can see you for the bogus idiot you and your hasbara pals are.
            I think you are doing truly great work for us.
            Do keep it up, I say.

          • KingGreen

            oh please, he’s not

            someone said he’s mentally ill
            i agree !!
            just ignore him from now on, or that disgusting mouth foam he’s spitting, could taint your clothing

          • jjjj

            I believe you have a point. The guy is mentally ill. Up until his last screed he could have been neo-Nazi or Islamofascist. But when he mentioned the Nile-Euphrates rubbish as government policy etc. then I realised that he was sick in the head. He hasn’t been on here today yet, perhaps he IS in Syria eating someone’s organs. That gave him indigestion and I guess he got a sick note from Dr. Jihadlove. The joke is that he will probably get the best medical care in the region if he went over the Israeli border!

          • johndowdle

            1956 anyone? You really must make a better job of trying to stay in touch with reality.
            Next thing we know, you will be donning a monkey suit and trying to climb up the outside of the Empire State Building.
            Defensive purposes only? Believe that and you will believe anything. Just look at what happened in 1973.
            There, there, there: try lying down in a darkened room and don’t forget to keep taking the tablets.
            People world-wide – including Jews – will all be so much better off when Zionist Israel is no more and everyone will all feel better able to get along with one another.
            You know it makes sense.

          • jjjj

            Dickhead, your posts are getting ever more bizarre. You are either pig ignorant or utterly mad.
            1956 was a colonial fiasco involving France, the UK and Israel. The Egyptians were allowing Fedayun to infiltrate Israel and commit terror. Eden saw Nasser as Mussolini and both the UK and France were concerned about the Suez canal. Don’t try and ignore the role that the UK and France had just because you happen to be masturbating over Hitler’s poster you creep.

            1973? The Arabs attack Israel in the October War and Israel, instead of rolling over and allowing an Arab victory fights back and carries the war to the enemy’s territory. In doing so they surround the Third Egyptian Army and allow food and supplies to it thus allowing Sadat to claim victory.

            What in God’s name is the connection between the above historical events and your claims about Jews looking for world domination.

            You’ve been set up by Mossad to make the Arabs look bad, and you are giving them a fantastic return on their investment.

            If you had been around in the 40s you would have come up with hanging the slogan ‘Arbeit Macht Frei’ over the entrance at Auschwitz. You are so evil that you would have thought of the idea of having Jews playing classical music as they were marched to their deaths.

          • johndowdle

            Thanks for the laugh.
            I had a really good chuckle at the pure stupidity of your remarks.
            You really believe I am working for Mossad, do you?
            Do try and get real – or don’t you know how to?
            I know I can always rely on you for a good laugh.
            Do keep up your ignorant and stupid postings.
            They provide endless opportunities for real humour.

          • johndowdle

            When the moron factory finally closed when you were the last to roll off their hasbara troll moron production line, it must have been because they simply could not replicate anything more ignorant or more stupid than you.
            Just about the one thing you are good for is a good laugh.
            Do keep up the good work. I invariably have a good chuckle whenever I read another of your silly comments.

          • johndowdle

            What a truly weird world you live in on Planet Hasbara.
            You need to re-join humankind on Planet Earth.
            There is an acronym used in computing: GIGO.
            It stands for Garbage In, Garbage Out.
            Your postings are pure examples of the GIGO principle.
            Your hasbara masters have well and truly distorted your mind.
            They have really done a job on you.
            They are to be congratulated.
            You, on the other hand, are to be pitied.

          • KingGreen

            my goodness, are you a cretin, or what!!!

          • johndowdle

            What an incredibly unintelligent remark. I hope your hasbara propaganda officers are not paying you on the basis of quality, as I feel sure they will not be paying you very much.

          • KingGreen

            BAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAAHA

            HHAHAHHAHAHHAHA HAHAHAHA hahahahahhahahahah
            hahahahhahahhahaahhahahahaa hahahahahahaahahah
            hahahhaahha haaaaaaa

            palestinians can not even live in peace with other palestinians, christians or egyptians!!!!

            LOOOOOOOL

            tell me, how is ‘Palestine’ doing?
            and how is Israle doing?

            looks like we have a winner (and a loser – who just happens to be Muslim, like all the other losers on the world – coincidence?)

            aaahhhhhh such fun!

          • johndowdle

            What a pathetic little man you are. You cannot spell Israel correctly, can you? You clearly have no knowledge or understanding as to how Christian, Jewish, Muslim and secular Palestinians get along, do you?
            How is Israel doing? Ask Netanyahu for yourself – and ask him why he has set up a special unit to deal with the global boycott, divestment and sanctions campaign currently gathering strength on the European and American continents.
            Israel – like apartheid South Africa before it – is on the slide.

          • KingGreen

            THAT’S your reply?
            insulting my typos?

            PA-THE-TIC

            the more Israel is boycotted, the better it does

            good luck surviving on Palestinian medical technologies when you’ll get sick one day

            ‘Israel is on the slide’

            says the guy who thinks that Palestinians are doing well…..
            Israel has nukes, imbecile, they aren;t going any-fucking-where!

          • johndowdle

            The former Soviet Union had nukes. Where are they now?
            I will rely on superior UK medical technology rather than flawed products from a tinpot insignificant little racist regime like Zionist Israel.
            The fact that you have to rely upon coarse invective betrays how insecure you are when confronted by superior argumentation. You have to do better than that – or are you simply incapable of any better performance?.

          • amie

            “I will rely on superior UK medical technology rather than flawed products from a tinpot insignificant little racist regime like Zionist Israel. ” Bad news:
            The event, part of the second BIRAX Regenerative Medicine conference will focus on furthering joint research on stem cell therapies – BIRAX is an initiative of the British Embassy and British Council in Israel.
            It will also be attended by 300 leading Israeli scientists, and 80 British scientists, whose research is advancing the fight against devastating illnesses, such as type 1 diabetes, heart diseases, Parkinson’s and Alzheimer’s, using stem cell
            therapies.
            The two countries will be investing £10 million into the research over the next five years.
            http://www.jpost.com/Enviro-Tech/British-minister-visits-Israel-to-strengthen-cooperation-in-stem-cell-research-346373

            and worse:
            Israel’s percentage of the total number of scientific articles published
            worldwide is almost 10 times higher than its percentage of the world’s
            population and it ranks 1st for quality of scientific research
            institutions. Five Israelis have won Nobel Prizes within the last eight
            years in the fields of chemistry and economics.
            the UK and Israel have identified five areas of mutual strength and
            prioritisation: Advanced materials and nano-technology, agri-sciences
            with a focus on water, neuroscience, space research technology and
            regenerative medicine
            https://www.gov.uk/government/priority/uk-science-and-innovation-network-working-with-israel

          • johndowdle

            And yet at least half of the world’s Jews consciously and deliberately choose NOT to live in Israel.
            What does their reluctance to undertake aliyah tell you?
            It tells me – and most other sensible people – that no one with an ounce of foresight sees any viable future for Israel.
            Their Zionist government have – as usual – demonstrated their usual bad faith by refusing to release Palestinian prisoners who they had agreed to release as part of the Kerry peace initiative.
            I am sure hardly anyone is surprised by the actions of welching Netanyahu and his band of Zionist boneheads.
            Are you?

          • KingGreen

            they still send a lot of money in support though – jews stick together, that’s why I admire them so much, that’s why they are success story, and that’s why you’re seething with hatred and jealousy

            meanwhile, some arabs sit on golden toilets, wipe themselves with silk, while most of their brothers kill each other’s children – and this will never stop

            Israel is such an amazing country
            I can;t wait to go in my business trip and leave thousands in hotels and restaurants to support Israelis and their country

            ah yeah, and of course my business investments that have made me very comfortable indeed

            thanks Israel, you’re truly special

          • johndowdle

            Even though today is the first of April – April Fools Day – I thought you were being serious until I read the bit about you leaving ‘thousands in hotels and restaurants to support Israelis and their country’.
            “In your dreams, sunshine”, is all I can say to that.
            I suppose the clue was in your name – King – clearly the assumed name of a dreamer.
            Perhaps you should change it to Walter Mitty?
            That sounds much much more appropriate – for you.

          • KingGreen

            oh dear, you poor bustard, do you have google alert on this or something? dude, you can rant as much as you want and regurgitate the same crap over and over again, it will not make Israel less successful or muslims stop killing each other and destroying their own countries!

            and yes, I think most people would consider me ‘rich’ which I don’t actually, just doing well enough not to worry about money – eat your heart out little Abdul, what do you do, ask ‘paper or plastic’ or ‘do you want fries with that’?

            hihi
            okay, enough fun have to work now, with Israel – hurray!

          • johndowdle

            You are someone who knows the price of everything and the value of nothing. You should feel right at home with all the other posers in Tel Aviv – if you ever get there.
            I don’t think most people consider you to be ‘rich’ but incredibly stupid, living in your own little delusional world.
            For most people Fools Day lasts just one day.
            In your case, Fools Day is every day of every year.

          • Guest

            I think ‘johndowdle’ is mentally ill

          • johndowdle

            Thus speaks a “friend” of the “king” of la-la-land.
            You side with someone who has lost all credibility with ridiculous claims of throwing thousands around.
            While shekels are not worth as much as dollars or pounds, his fantasy world could not accommodate such behaviour.
            You want to join in and side with a loser? Be my guest.

          • jjjj

            When you run out of arguments all you do is ad hominem. For a paid up member of CAABU you’re a big disappointment.

          • johndowdle

            What a pathetic attempt at fishing.
            As usual, you have ended up catching nothing.
            You really are a stupid fool.

          • jjjj

            Their reluctance to make Aliyah tells me that they don’t want to uproot themselves to live in the Middle East surrounded by primitive, backstabbing, murderous evil people: Israel’s Arab neighbours. So they prefer to live in comfortable Europe and the US etc. But if and when the antisemites like you and your ilk ever came into power, they would attempt to hotfoot it to Israel because Israel is their only insurance policy.

            Netanyahu has already released 1,027 Palestinians for one Gilad Shalit, murderers of the worst kind that only a neo-Nazi like you could applaud. What does that tell you about Arab morals, dickhead?

          • johndowdle

            The people you describe above are ALL in the IDF.
            No wonder decent civilised Jews avoid going to Israel.

          • Guest

            ‘decent civilised Jews avoid going to Israel.’

            you’re seriously disturbed to write garbage like this, you need meds asap, shame the good ones are all tainted by zionists somehow

            oh well, never mind
            eventually you’ll just end up dressed in 10 layers, pushing a shopping cart through a high street rambling into your smelly beard about the evil zionists

          • johndowdle

            Your description reminds me of a picture I saw of an ultra-orthodox rabbi on an air plane who was wrapped from head to toe in plastic sheeting, in case the plane flew over grave yards en route to his destination and to avoid becoming “tainted” by the presence of the grave yards below him.
            My impression of him then – and you now – is that you are both equally crackers in the head.
            Don’t worry, we have infinitely superior pharmaceutical companies a’plenty in the UK. You can get all the meds you need for your condition here without having to worry about where they came from and at who’s expense.

        • KingGreen

          dude, you should throw out your zionist machine (your pc) or buy another one – either way the money goes to Israel, cheers!

          • johndowdle

            Sorry to disappoint you but my lap top has an AMD dual core CPU – definitely not Zionist. You may view it as my small contribution to the growing boycott, divestment and sanctions campaign which is bringing Zionist Israel down.
            You have not got it yet, have you, that people like me are infinitely more intelligent than people like you?
            That is why I have constantly and successfully answered and rebutted every single point you have made.
            But do keep it up; I love making you look foolish.

          • KingGreen

            INTEL (part of every pc in the world) is Israeli

            Mr Intelligent

          • KingGreen

            eat your heart out Mr Intelligent – try not to get a seizure, most seizure medicines are zionist inventions too…

            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Israeli_inventions_and_discoveries

            I wonder how much Palestinans have invented in the last 50 years, while continuously being attacked……

            – the suicide belt
            – the suicide vest
            – the suicide teen
            – the suicide down syndrome woman

            anything else?

          • crosscop

            The Eternal Refugee? Just before Israel came into being, millions of Germans were forced from their homes in what is now Poland, Russia and the Czech Republic. Since then they have blended seamlessly into the population of Germany. They do not lob missiles into their former homelands, sneak across the border to slit throats or machinegun school buses.
            Palestinians, on the other hand…

          • johndowdle

            Intel themselves are so concerned about their being involved in the boycott, divestment and sanctions campaign due to their slight involvement in Israel that they have issued public statements to the effect that the vast majority of their computer chips are produced in the USA – not Israel.
            Even so, my lap top does not have “Intel Inside”.
            I chose it and bought it because it has a non-Intel chip inside.
            I hope someone from Intel sees this post so that they will be aware of the extent to which decent consumers are choosing NOT to buy products with their chips inside until such time as Intel permanently quits Israel – which they will do eventually, once they realise how much it hurts their sales to be linked to a racist supremacist apartheid fascist state like Zionist Israel.
            Once again, your single brain cell has let you down.
            You have struck out once more.
            As usual, I have proved my natural superiority to you.

          • KingGreen

            ‘I hope Intel sees this post”

            BWHAAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHHAHAHHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHA……..

            okay okay,…enough

            you can’t argue with imbeciles
            the fact that keep insisting that you’re intellectually superior to me, makes this even better!!

            thanks mate, whatta laugh, seriously hysterical

            well done, cheers
            xxxx

          • johndowdle

            Keep taking the tablets. You will feel better – eventually.

          • KingGreen

            did you call ‘Intel’ yet asking them to read the post??

            LOOL

          • johndowdle

            There is no intel in Intel – or their users.

          • amie

            “infinitely more intelligent than people like you”
            You have managed to spew out every single unthinking, cliched piece of easily falsifiable totally refutable accusation against Israel I have every heard, in the course of one manic thread. Not to mention the crazed, risibly ahistorical conspircay theorist “Israel is the root cause of every evil on earth” and the lala land “everyone lived in peace and harmony in the magical kingdom of Palestineland before those evil Zionazis came along”.
            I can only think you are actually an automated antizio generator.

          • johndowdle

            So you are KingGreen’s boss, eh?
            Well, it is a pleasure to meet you.
            I wonder what rank in the IDF you hold: Sergeant?
            He was – at best – a Private Second Class.
            Your only problem is that the historiography undermines everything you say. Even your own historians undermine everything you say – and I am not just talking about historians like Shlomo Sands and Ilan Pappe.
            You would be better off dropping the denialist act where the Nakba and the illegal foundation of Zionist Israel is concerned in my opinion but then you need the intelligence to understand that your worn out old lies and deceit no longer work for you.
            This is why the world is turning increasingly to support the boycott divestment and sanctions campaign against the pariah state of Zionist Israel.

    • Cogra Bro

      Religion is a cultural artefact? In fact, culture is a function of religion.

      Culture, from ‘cult’

      QED

      • johndowdle

        Culture pre-exists religion and all other death cults. QED back.

        • Cogra Bro

          Culture, meaning everything that makes life worth living, is certainly the product of religion.

          The world’s first example of architecture is to be found on the island of Gozo ( Malta).

          It is a temple.

          As TS Eliot remarked ( Notes on the Definition of a Culture), ‘No Civilisation ( culture) has arisen or survived except in relation to a religion’

          ( I quote from memory)

          • johndowdle

            Just because one person once said something some time ago, that does not make it true for all time – unless we are talking about scientifically established laws of nature.
            All religious cults have been preceded by empires. Why?
            Religion is a cheap form of social control, used by imperial elites such as the early Persian, Assyrian and Egyptian rulers long before the emergence of the modern religious death cults such as Judaism, Christianity and Islam.
            Religions – all of them – are all relics of empires.
            This is why early Jewish rulers invented Judaic religion, why Constantine adopted Christianity as the official imperial religion and the Arabs invented their own religion.
            As with non-religious cults, they all revolve around a cult of the personality, as did the cults in Communist empires, focused around characters like Marx, Engels, Lenin, Stalin, Pol Pot, Mao Zedong and the Fascist cults based on Mussolini and Hitler.
            Communist and former Communist regimes – at least – have started to move away from the cult of the personality and appear to be evolving into something different.
            While Putin has echoes of an earlier era around him, I don’t think anyone sees him as a focus point for a cult of the personality like his predecessors.
            Religion relies upon the power of the state to be effective.
            This is why the New Testament has Jesus allegedly saying “render unto Caesar what is Caesars’s and render unto god what is god’s”.
            Note which came first. The state, not religion.
            As a humanist, I consider the Torah, Bible and Koran to be human inventions designed to exert social control on behalf of the state, and I also have considerable doubts about the claimed existence of the Moses, Jesus and Mohamed characters, for whom no contemporaneous historical or archaeological evidence has ever been found to verify that they ever existed.
            People should stop being fooled by religion and religious “leaders”, and live truly independent lives of their own.

          • Cogra Bro

            Yes, I know that quoting Eliot is appealing to authority, but when the authority is one of the intellectual giants of the 20th Century, you would be a fool not to listen.

            Actually Eliot’s opinion is pretty much in line with that of Sorokin, the Harvard sociologist / historian ( ‘The Crisis of our Age’ etc).

          • johndowdle

            Personal opinions – even your opinion or mine – are not what counts. It is the scientifically verifiable facts that count.
            What religion did ancient China follow – do you know?
            There have been cultures on this planet long before the emergence of religion.
            Religion was developed by powerful leaders and rulers for their own purposes, principally to motivate their people and to act as a cheap form of social control over the people.
            That remains the role of religion today too, except where more enlightened societies have evolved, which recognise that civil laws and civil codes of behaviour make more sense.

          • Cogra Bro

            Actually, Christ was executed by powerful leaders.

            Christianity was adopted by Constantine as the official religion of the Empire as a means of holding it together because it had already been widely accepted, which rather contradicts your view.

            So does the history of Islam whose rulers acquired their power by virtue of their descent or alleged descent from Mohammed

          • johndowdle

            And your historical/archaeological evidence for the mythical figures of Moses, Jesus and Mohamed is……..what?
            There is no contemporaneous evidence to support the existence of any of them.

          • Cogra Bro

            The are entire libraries on the subject of the historicity of Jesus. I suggest you refer to them.
            My own thesis was on this subject.

          • johndowdle

            And how much of this vast amount of literature was actually written about the alleged Jesus at the time he was alive?
            My understanding is that there was absolutely nothing at all written about him while he lived and most of what was eventually was written about him only got written something like at least 50 years after his alleged death.
            Considering the claims from Christianists that his existence was an event of world-shattering significance, how is it possible to make these claims when at the time he was said to exist he made no impact on then available literature of any kind whatsoever?

          • Cogra Bro

            The Gospels were written from eyewitness accounts. I suggest you find the works of eg Richard Bauckham on Amazon, the titles of which speak for themselves.

          • johndowdle

            See http://www.academia.edu/1056965/REVIEW_of_Jesus_and_the_Eyewitnesses_by_Richard_Bauckham_
            Frankly, life is too short to be wading through highly speculative arguments about the numbers of angels dancing on the heads of pins or whether or not Bauckham’s attempt at proving eye-witness accounts based on subsequent and highly questionable oral traditions is proof positive of the alleged existence of a mythical Jesus.
            All I know is that there were contemporaneous written accounts available relating to the exact time when the alleged Jesus existed and that he was never mentioned in any of them.

          • Cogra Bro

            You seem never to have read Bauckham, or ( for example) Craig Blomberg’s Historical Reliability of the Gospels, or Ben Meyer’s The Aims of Jesus, or Tom Wright’s The Victory of the Cross, or any other scholarly books on this subject worthy of note.

            You seem very comfortable in your anti – Christian bigotry, so further discussion seems to be a waste of time.

          • johndowdle

            Cogra: it is not a matter of bigotry but a matter of fact.
            The fact is that despite all the intellectualising waffle produced by these theology industry penmen – it is almost always men – not one of them have ever produced factual material from the precise period of the claimed existence of the alleged character Jesus – or for Moses or Mohamed.
            As I said before, life is too short to waste on abstruse sound and thunder that ends up meaning nothing. I am sure they all thoroughly enjoyed conducting their “research” and writing their unending tomes – but I have better things to do with my time than waste it on their irrational murmurings.
            Give me Charles Darwin any day and I will happily read that.

          • johndowdle

            There are many publications I have never read and never will.
            Life is just too short to read everything.
            I read what I consider significant and important.
            Reading theology seems to me to be an utter waste of time.
            It adds no true understanding of the world to anyone.
            It is not bigotry but facts which inform my thinking.
            You should try it some time.

          • Cogra Bro

            The Chinese worshipped their ancestors ( and still do ) which means that they believe that life has a spiritual dimension.

            Confucianism is the working out in moral terms of the implications of ancestor worship.

            Confucius himself was elevated to divine or semi divine status.

          • Cogra Bro

            See my reply to your observation about China below.

  • CarlMN

    There is one serious shortcoming with all Qur’anic interpretation that is used to promote and justify intolerance and violence. Every chapter (except one) of the Qur’an begins with “Bismillah, Er-Rahman, Er-Rahim” which provides a context and a tone that should be the primary guide for interpreting all that follows. And that statement instructs the interpreter to begin in the name-spirit-breath-consciousness of the One, Allah, who is the unifying oneness behind all diversity of manifestation in Life, and to do so with Mercy and Compassion for all beings. The opening chapter of the Qur’an provides strong emphasis on this statement to help focus the interpretor’s attention on it. The message is that every thought, feeling and action should be undertaken with this in mind, heart and body as the one and only motivation that is consistent with the essential core of Islam. No statement in the Qur’an should ever be interpreted outside of this context. To remove any interpretation from this context is to pervert it for one’s own egotistical purposes, and thereby remove any possibility for religious justification for any personal action. In spite of this, I do not see Muslims promoting this approach to ‘ijtihad’, which is much to their detriment.

  • johndowdle

    To those who worry about our European values being “swamped” by Muslim ideology, it should be pointed out that many of the Muslims who are here came here to get away from the kind of Islamic extremism which we also find unacceptable.
    Over time, I expect that, just as in the West, people will gradually become enlightened to the point where they leave behind the ignorance and stupidity of religious beliefs and increasingly opt for more civilised secular beliefs.
    It is, I believe, simply a matter of time before this type of multicultural society emerges in the West, whatever political and religious ideologues may try to foist on to the people of the West.
    Eventually, people in other parts of the world will also see the poverty that religion brings in terms of aspirations and living standards, and they too will end up rejecting it.

    • subwus

      I know what you mean about civilised secular beliefs, aborted fetuses burnt in waste incinerators.
      Just think of how much land could be freed up for immigrant homes if all those church grave yards could be bulldozed over?
      You know, nobody has an attachment to dead relatives anymore do they?

      • johndowdle

        Many of the aborted foetuses could be saved if people like yourself were to accept the lifetime responsibility for their welfare, with all the financial and personal consequences that involves.
        Perhaps religious organisations similarly concerned might also be prepared to step up to the plate and provide any women in distress with all the financial and other resources they need to secure them and their putative children with the homes, food, clothing, education and everything else both of the need for life.
        How likely is any of that do you suppose?
        My guess in each case is Not Likely.
        As for building on grave yards, go to Israel where you will find Muslim grave yards which have been there for centuries being despoiled and built upon.
        It is not only church grave yards at risk in a place like Israel.
        In my country – the UK – I am fairly certain that former grave yards have been built upon. At one point, three grave yards were sold off by Westminster Council at one penny each. Interesting?
        The person involved was Shirley Porter, Conservative Leader of the Council, subsequently investigated and convicted for selling off social housing in an attempt at electoral district rigging – now living in legal immunity in Israel.
        Strange how many bizarre things go on in Israel, is it not?
        And that is before the Zionists turn it into a religious state !!!

        • KingGreen

          bwahahaha

          look, a little anti-semite

          hey little guy, did you get lost on your way to the ‘Death to Israel’ meeting?
          this is an article about FANATICAL ISLAM – you know: muslims killing everybody in sight, gassing each other etc

          I will personally send a generous cheque to this amazing charity that supports families’ of IDF soldiers that live in poor conditions, in your name, tomorrow (the Middle Easts’ monday)

          thanks for the reminder of what a great island the Middle East is lucky to have amongst that sea of shite it’s swimming in

          • johndowdle

            It is crude racists like you who are helping to bring about an end to a racist supremacist country like the apartheid Zionist State of Israel.
            Most educated people treat accusations from boneheads like you of so-called antisemitism as completely idiotic.
            You think you can shut me and similarly minded people up?
            Think again. We will never stop until Palestine is free.
            We support a single secular Palestine, in which all people of all beliefs should be constitutionally guaranteed equal rights.
            If you choose to support a racist Zionist regime in Israel, then that is your right. Similarly misguided racist people supported apartheid South Africa – and ended up on the losing side.
            If you want to carry on peddling simple-minded hasbara myths about a racist Zionist regime founded on lies and deceit – and still continuing along the hasbara lines of lies and deceit – that is your choice.
            Most decent Jews I know want nothing to do with apartheid Israel. Growing numbers of young Jews inside Israel are refusing the military draft and many of those who do serve in the IDF find the experience of oppressing the Palestinians so appalling that many of them have left Israel permanently.

          • jjjj

            John, what grates is that you maliciously exploit the comments section on an article that calls for the reform of Islam, the religion causing most of the problems in the world today. It is not unreasonable to criticise you for not spewing your antisemitic filth on another website.
            The fact is that Israel grants its Arab citizens full rights and freedom of worship. You conveniently ignore Jordan’s behaviour up to 1967 when stones from Jewish graveyards in Jerusalem were removed and used as paving stones.
            We know what would happen to anyone coming to Libya for example and trying to open an abandoned synagogue- they would have to flee for their lives, as indeed happened a couple of years ago to a gentleman who tried to do that.

            Israel is a beacon of hope to countless of Muslim children who receive treatment in Israeli hospitals-from the Gulf and other countries with whom Israel has no diplomatic relations. The Arab world will continue to remain backward so long as the fanatic islamists and their supporters such as yourself ‘John’ refuse to see the hatred within themselves.

          • johndowdle

            YOU are the one who spews anti-Semitic filth.
            It is obvious that you are afflicted by a racist hatred of Arabs – and Arabs are Semites, are they not?
            Therefore, it is YOU who is an anti-Semite, not me.
            Israel a beacon of hope for countless Muslim children?
            Don’t make me laugh !!!
            Israel under the Zionists is THE problem – certainly not the solution. Their insatiable land-grabbing is what has caused all the problems in south west Asia – which includes all the problems many young Muslim children are afflicted by.
            Daily, Zionist military shoot and kill young children in the West Bank and Gaza parts of Palestine. Some so-called beacon of hope the IDF are.
            The only people benefiting from Israeli medical attention are those Al Qaeda affiliated forces in groups like the Al Nusra Front, fighting in Syria and receiving clandestine support from the Zionist fascists in the Golan Heights.
            What I and others hate is the kind of racist supremacist ideology you attempt to defend and be an apologist for.
            We fought successfully against people like you through campaigns involving boycott, divestment and sanctions against apartheid South Africa and we will also win against the racist supremacists in present-day Israel too.

          • jjjj

            I’m shocked at your level of ignorance. The people who benefit from Israeli medical help come from all over the middle east including Saudi Arabia, the Gulf, etc. The IDF is defending Israel’s population from terror attacks. You couldn’t give one fig for any Jews murdered by your Muslim idols.

            The racism is in Syria where Assad has butchered how many now? Do you protest? Do you demonstrate?

            Screw you and your false moral equivalences. Israel will exist long after you are gone.

          • johndowdle

            I am afraid you are the one parading their ignorance. Most of the jihadists in Syria are – as you admit – sponsored by the Saudi and some Gulf ruling elites.
            They are engaged in a covert war; alongside Zionist Israel, to topple the Syrian regime – admittedly one with a trult appalling record on human rights, just like Israel, Saudi and all the other disgraceful Gulf Co-operation Council members.
            Don’t worry: I am fully aware that Abbas and his PA have an equally poor record where human rights is concerned.
            I feel truly sorry for all the ordinary everyday people who daily suffer due to the power games being played by all the unscrupulous players in south west Asia.
            Apologists like you claimed apartheid South Africa would last for ever. Other claimed the Nazi Reich would last for a thousand years. Where are they now?

          • jjjj

            I couldn’t care less for your conceding that Abbas et al have a poor record where human rights are concerned. I note that you don’t include Hamas here which is par for the course when it comes to your ilk. What is unforgivable is your attempt to twist my words regarding Israel’s aid to sick Muslims from all over the Middle East. This has nothing to do with those fighting Assad but civilians from families who have nothing to do with the war in Syria. Cancer riddled children, children with terminal diseases flock to Hadassah and other hospitals in Israel. But racists like you, the antisemite who would blame all the world’s problems on the Jews, try and deny this because it doesn’t fit your narrative.
            Stay in your cave.

          • johndowdle

            There is a simple answer to your angst: Israel should withdraw from the West Bank and stop turning Gaza into the world’s largest open air prison – or should that be concentration camp?
            Then, everyone needing medical treatment would be free to do so in Palestinian hospitals and medical centres. No one needs the Zionists to provide medical treatment. What they need them to do is leave – and never return.
            Incidentally, you are aware – are you not – that Israel promoted the existence of Hamas – another stupid act on their part.
            Young people in the Gaza would prefer to live in a secular state but – thanks to Zionist stupidity – they are unable to do so.
            That must make you really proud, I imagine.

          • jjjj

            If anyone is guilty of turning Gaza into a prison, that’s Hamas. By the way, a concentration camp is a place where the population decreases. Strange therefore that the Palestinian population is constantly increasing.

            Anything to say about the topic of this article ‘John’?

            For someone who comes on here and attacks religion, you seem to be awfully well disposed towards the Religion of Peace.

          • johndowdle

            It was not Hamas who launched Operation Cast Lead against the people of Gaza, which resulted in around 1,400 deaths, of which around 300+ were innocent young children. The same operation resulted in excess of 5,000 physically injured people and an unknown number of traumatised people, including very young children.
            It was not Hamas who deployed white phosphorus weapons against small babies and tiny young children.
            Those atrocities were carried out by Israeli armed forces.
            Similar but lower level atrocities are carried out against the people in the Gaza prison camp every single day by elements of the IDF – whether army, navy or air force.
            I already said what I wanted to say on the original subject of this article: that all religions are delusional and afflict otherwise sometimes intelligent people.
            I view all religions as roughly equivalent in their levels of irrationality and backwardness for the human species.
            The sooner religion disappears off the face of our planet, the sooner all human beings will achieve real progress.

          • KingGreen

            HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAA

            yeah………………LOOOOOOOOOL

            good luck with that!!!

            btw, isn;t it great how Egyot flooded all Gaza tunnels and is building a giant wall to keep palestinians out? I really like it. it shows that palestinians can’t live in peace with anybody

            so how is Hamas working out for the Palestinians so far?
            how has terrorism worked out for them so far?
            looks to me like they’re living pretty shitty lives

            you now what (zionist) EInstein said about insanity?
            Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, expecting a different result.
            Well, Palestinians have had the same strategy of violence for around 70 years – yeah, I’d say they’re insane, since it’s gotten them nowhere – at the same time Israel hasn’t suffered economically, developmentally, the contrary actually.

            Muslim anti-semitism makes Israel stronger. The more your kind hates jews, the worse your lives become, and it’s extremely amusing for people like me to watch.

          • johndowdle

            Einstein detested Zionism and refused to support it. He also predicted that nothing good would come from any Zionist state of Israel. How right he was.
            By citing him, you have revealed for everyone to see that you know absolutely nothing about Einstein and his beliefs – only one or two phrases he uttered on one or two occasions.
            It is simple-minded people like you who are the grave diggers of Zionist Israel – I am pleased to say.
            Keep on whistling to keep your spirits up as you go down with the sinking ship of Zionism, just like your admirers in apartheid South Africa did before you.
            People like you are dinosaurs. You are virtually extinct but have not yet woken up to the fact. That is real good.

          • jjjj

            In answer to your last question: get thyself a mirror.

          • johndowdle

            Try to remember that when you point a finger at someone else, three point back at you.
            I tried looking for you in the mirror – but you had no reflection.
            You must obviously be one of the undead – from the neck up.

          • jjjj

            This article is about Islam and its excesses. The religion causing so many problems in this world. A religion that is a danger to so many of its adherents. And you, the garden variety racist that you are can only come on here and put the boot in Israel. Shame on you.

          • johndowdle

            And most of the world’s problems are due to the lies and deceit surrounding the illegal establishment of Israel and pathetic attempts by apologists like you to defend it.
            If there were no Zionist Israel, most of the world’s problems – including religiously-linked ones – would not exist.
            Even now, if Israel were to achieve a half-way decent settlement with the Palestinians, it could have a truly emancipatory effect on world affairs.
            The problem is that there is no one on either side who is equivalent to a present-day Mandela or de Klirk to achieve it.
            That is the real tragedy of the situation.

          • jjjj

            So because most of the world’s problems are caused by islamists subjecting the world to their terror e.g. Boko Haram in Nigeria; Assad the butcher in Syria; Al-Qaida worldwide; Fanatic Shia in Iran and ‘John’ puts the blame on…Israel. You’re mad.

          • johndowdle

            It is Israel and the West which has provoked Muslim reaction throughout the rest of the world. If you cannot see that, you are condemning yourself, your family and your wider network of friends and relations to live under constant threat from young men and women constantly aggrieved by the cant and hypocrisy they daily witness from countries like the USA and many European countries who place the interests of Israel before the interests of their own citizens.

          • jjjj

            Ha ha, you think that because I support Israel’s existence so I’m Jewish. You moron.

          • johndowdle

            Whether you are Jewish or not, you remain – I believe – part of humankind. Whatever your ethnicity or any other characteristic you choose to associate with, your support for racist supremacism tells everyone all they need to know about you.

          • jjjj

            Another example of the liar ‘John’ trying to fool people. You posited that I was Jewish on a couple of posts to claim I was biased. Liars like yourself first come on here and make what appear to be antireligious comments. Then, once your bone fides are established (so no one can say you are a Muslim) you suddenly whip out the lies about Islam not being respected in…Israel. Conveniently forgetting the fact that Israel is the most religiously tolerant state in the Middle East, no mean feat considering the circumstances. John would have the Jews live under the thumb of Islamists who would massacre the Jews just as their parents came grandparents varied to do in 1947-8. Perhaps ‘John’ would have the Jews be deported to Madagascar.

            Israel thrives, John. Many Muslims see Israel for the beacon of light that it is. Read Magdi Allam for example. Read of the others in the Muslim world who support Israel and its tolerance for minorities.

          • johndowdle

            A “beacon of light”” How utterly absurd. Have you ever even been there? You forget that Jews, Muslims, Christians and secularists all co-existed peacefully before the Zionist extremists turned up on the scene and launched their bid to take over all of historic Palestine.
            Their – and your – racist supremacist attitudes are what caused all the problems there, with the Ashkenazim Jews bringing their racist and nationalistic ideologies with them principally from Germany and other largely German speaking parts of Europe.
            As for Israel being religiously tolerant: if that is true, why is Netanyahu demanding that Israel be recognised as a Jewish state? It can only be so that he can create the kind of racially pure fascist state which his own father so admired – along with many Zionists – along with demands for lebensraum and an attitude which views all other people as essentially sub-human or untermensch.
            What I find amazing is the staggering inability of people like you to understand what these people are really about.
            The only other alternative is that you deliberately blinker yourselves to the truth. I don’t know how you do it.

          • amie

            “Germany and other largely German speaking parts of Europe”. Fascinating take on the European history and demography. Could you enumerate these “largely German speaking parts of Europe”? You clearly have no clue about the history of Ashkenazi Jews.

          • johndowdle

            Dear Amie: do you know what the word Ashkenazi means in Hebrew? Do look it up and then come back on this blog and explain why it has no connection with Germany.

            Tell you what: see if you can find the following entry:-

            יְהוּדֵי אַשְׁכֲּנַז Y’hudey Ashkenaz, “The Jews of Germania”
            Amie: I admire your natural stupidity, alongside all the other cheap Zionist trolls I come across on these and similar blogs.
            With opponents like you being employed as hasbara propagandists, it is no wonder the Zionists are on the ropes.

          • KingGreen

            apparently we are the morons

            he keeps insisting that he’s somehow intellectually superior to us, meanwhile he thinks Israel is doing terribly and Palestinians are winners somehow………

            typical Muslim jew-basher: SO stupid, that he doesn’t even realise that everybody is laughing at him

          • KingGreen

            fyi, (and try not to hyperventilate):

            I’m not jewish either (gasp!)
            in fact, I don;t know 1 single non-jewish person, who does not support Israel, admires it, and generally thinks it’s only decent place in the entire ME

            frankly, I find you desperate posts really sad. They have NOTHING to do with the article and are just purely designed to spread jew-hatred.

            embarrassing, even for a brain dead troglodyte like you
            but then again, muslims are embarrassingly transparent and simple minded – any moron can figure them out

          • johndowdle

            How can you claim not to know 1 single non-Jewish person who does not support Israel, admire it and generally think it’s (the) only decent place in the entire ME when you know I am not Jewish and do not agree with that sentiment?
            Now do you understand just how poor your attempts at philosophical rationality are?
            What you say – quite literally – makes no sense.
            You are – again literally – spouting nonsense.
            You tiny mind also appears to have forgotten that I said earlier on that I am a humanist or secularist and not a religionist of any kind. Do you understand what that means?
            In case you are incapable of working it out, it means I am not a Muslim. Have you got that clear now?
            Just to make it finally crystal-clear so that someone with even your incredibly limited intelligence will understand: I am not a Jew or a Christian or a Muslim or any other brand of religion.
            Do you understand now?

          • KingGreen

            yeah!

            if Israel didn’t exist, Muslims would’t be killing each other!!!

            LOOOL

          • johndowdle

            As usual, you have got it wrong – again.
            If religion did not exist, far fewer people would be trying to kill one another. That is the fact of the matter.

          • Cogra Bro

            Really? Atheist Soviet Union 20million dead ( total unnecessary deaths 60 millions)

            Atheist Communist China 30 millions dead.

            Atheist Khmer Rouge one third of the Population

            Etc
            Etc

          • johndowdle

            I love people like yourself who have so little knowledge and understanding.
            Stalin grew up in the home of a Russian Orthodox priest and trained to become a monk.
            Pol Pot attended a Roman Catholic boarding school until he was in his late teens.
            See any pattern here?
            China – even under the Communists – retained the practice of ancestor worship, animism and a number of other bizarre religious practices. They still continue today.
            For good measure, Adolf Hitler was a church dues paying member of the Catholic Church right up until the moment he blew his brains out in the Fuhrer Bunker in Berlin in 1945.
            None of these tyrannical dictators could be described as atheists, secularists or rationalists. Not one of them.

          • Cogra Bro

            You have missed the point. You appear to be suggesting that anyone brought up in a religious way remains religious even if they become atheists in later life. That is clearly nonsense.

            Stalin, Pol Pot, Hitler – These people may have been brought up in a religious way but they comprehensively rejected religion. That includes Hitler, who may or may not have paid the tithe required of citizens in certain states, but who was virulently anti ‘Jewish’ Christianity.

            Stalin and Pol Pot were Marxists who had a wholly materialist word – view which saw human beings as members of classes and otherwise without personal intrinsic worth.

            Hitler was a Nietzschean who regarded power as the only morality and a social Darwinian who thought that life was struggle for existence and power as the means to be successful in surviving.

          • johndowdle

            I recently participated in a debate with a local minister on the topic of “The Future of Humanity is in Our Hands”.
            During the debate, members of the audience asked questions and expressed views of their own.
            One member of the audience stood up to address everyone in the room, claiming that he had been “saved” by Jesus.
            He claimed that he had spent a debauched youth pursuing wine, women, drugs and sex, which had caused him to experience a crisis with regard to his mental health.
            His “new” belief in Jesus had saved him and he was a new man now.
            When he asked me what I thought of his conversion, I replied that he had just given up one crutch for another – which rather deflated him, possibly because he then recognised the real truth of his situation.
            The same can be said about people who early in their lives become irrationalised by religion. If people are foolish enough to believe in religious cults and rituals, they are equally foolish enough to believe in anything of a similar nature, including non-religious ideologies.
            This is why there is a seamless connection between the earlier beliefs of people like Stalin, Pol Pot, Hitler – and all the other “crazies” history

          • KingGreen

            imbecile
            no wonder Muslims have such shitty lives: they are mind numbingly stupid!!!

          • johndowdle

            How pathetic you are.
            You are now reduced to the level of a 10 year old.
            I hope your hasbara paymasters will not start reducing your payments – especially if you have a family to support.
            After all, it is not their fault that you are so unaccomplished – is it?

          • Cogra Bro

            Their Average IQ is 89 / 90 ( white British 100).

          • KingGreen

            johndowlde is certainly proving that, cogra Bro

          • Cogra Bro

            Isn’t it the case that rockets and shells fired from Gaza regularly land on Israeli villages and settlements?

            Just as shells from the Golan heights used to land on Northern Israeli villages, as shells and rockets are fired by those adherents of the Religion of a Peace, Hizbollah from over the border in South Lebanon?

            And as suicide bombers regularly attempt to massacre people in Israeli streets?

          • johndowdle

            I fully share your stance on the practice of firing rockets from Gaza. They are crude and largely ineffective, as well as hugely unproductive. They serve only to antagonise and provoke Israeli forces – which is not hard to do – and they provide some sort of pseudo-justification for the military actions of the IDF which invariably impact most greatly on innocent men, women and children.
            I would also tend to agree with you on the question of firing shells and rockets into Northern Palestine as well.
            Again, largely ineffective, if not downright stupid.
            I do not believe there have been any mass incidences of suicide bombers in the streets of places like Tel Aviv in recent times, which suggests that the Palestinian Authority could be trusted to observe the terms of any peace agreements they enter into.
            Most ordinary Palestinians I met in places like Nazareth and the West Bank last year were heartily sick and tired of the current situation, and wanted no more than to live and lead just plain, simple ordinary lives.

          • jjjj

            Only a POS could describe the Palestinian rockets as ineffective. If they were so ineffective then Israel wouldn’t go after the launchers at risk to their troops you piece of moronic scum. The fact is and it’s a scandal that it goes unreported is that the whole South of Israel is under threat from the Islamofascists of Hamas. The Palestinians I’m sure want to live plain ordinary lives but they are led by maniacs and people like you and your ilk cheer them on.

            So it is you and your ilk who by giving succour to the Islamofascists are preventing peace in Israel.

          • johndowdle

            at an utterly absurd response.
            You are clearly incapable of any rational or logical thought.
            No wonder you and your fellow Zionist apologists are steadily sinking below the waves. Hurry up and drown, the lot of you.

          • Cogra Bro

            Mishal Hosein, the Muslim BBC presenter actually suggested in an interview that the Palestinians were doing the Israelis a favour by only using third rate rockets and not the first class ones they could be using .

          • johndowdle

            What you do not understand is that it is invariably Israelean forces which breach the ceasefires with Gaza and then use the pathetic rocket responses from Gaza to murder perfectly innocent civilians in most cases.
            I don’t cheer anyone on, especially if they are murdering lunatics – a description which can apply to both sides.
            When a 17 year old boy with hearing disabilities is gunned down with his birthday cake in his hands by a young women Israeli soldier, who can possibly support that?
            The unarmed judge gunned down on the Allenby Bridge – which even Netanyahu felt obligated to apologise for – provides an example of the way in which young Israelis are becoming brutalised through their military service.
            It is little wonder that growing numbers of young Israelis are leaving Israel to move permanently to places like Berlin.

          • KingGreen

            tehehehe

            truth hurts, huh?

            dude, try to breathe sometimes, all this jew-hatred ca;t be good of you, especially since you’ll have to rely on zionist-tainted medicine…

          • johndowdle

            When ever I request medication from my pharmacy, I always tell him “No TEVA” because – as I am sure you know – they are implicated in the Illegal occupation of the West Bank area of Palestine. I have also explained why I stipulate no medications from TEVA and he has now stopped stocking any of their pharmaceutical products.
            See how clever – NOT – you are?
            I don’t hate Jews. I am happy to oppose ignorant, stupid, poorly informed bigots like you, with minimal intelligence.

          • KingGreen

            oh, thanks for telling me

            I’;ll go to boots right now to stock up on exactly those, Mr Intelligent

            baaaaaaaaaa

          • johndowdle

            You sound like Mrs Thatcher when she claimed that the boycott campaign against apartheid South African Kruger Rands did not amount to much.
            Subsequently, she experienced senile dementia and apartheid South Africa has disappeared off the face of world history, just like apartheid Zionist Israel is doing too.
            Keep taking the tablets but don’t forget you share some characteristics with Margaret Thatcher – and will probably end up going exactly the same way as her.

          • jjjj

            Outstanding comment in response to ‘John’.

        • Fukuppy

          One thing that truly separates the Israelis from their Muslim enemies is the continued existence and toleration of the Dome of the Rock, Islam’s 3rd holiest site in the middle of Jerusalem, Israel’s capital. Over the last 40 years, more particularly in the last 10 years, just about every synagogue and Christian church in the arab world haas been razed and looted and the faithful of those establishments have been persecuted by their Muslim countrymen.

          • johndowdle

            From 1948 onwards, extremists from the Haganah, Irgun and Stern gangs attacked Christians and their churches.
            It is still continuing today, in particular through attempts to burn down churches and by leaving graffiti on them making lurid and vulgar aspersions about Jesus.
            In 2012, I visited an Orthodox church in Beit Sahour, near Bethlehem, which had a catafalque for a dead priest who had been murdered by extremist Zionist settlers.
            They had also inflicted considerable damage to the ancient church – erected above a well where Jesus was supposed to have drunk water. All the costs of the damage were met by the Palestinian Authority.
            These extremists have attempted to burn down and deface mosques too as part of a price tag campaign against the Palestinians and any decisions they object to from their own Israeli government – bizarre behaviour.
            The Zionist fascist regime in Israel do virtually nothing at all to deter, investigate or prosecute these criminals.
            People of all beliefs and none co-existed peacefully in historic Palestine, right up until the Zionists showed up.
            Since then, there has been nothing but religiously- and politically- inspired conflict. What does that tell you?

          • jjjj

            You liar. Don’t come on here and spout your lies about people of all beliefs coexisting in Palestine blah blah. The Ottomans who ruled Palestine treated the Jews abominably. You are a Judeophobe, a racist who comes on here and makes up stories in am attempt to fool people.

          • johndowdle

            As usual, you are just parading your ignorance of the history of historic Palestine yet again.
            At the time of the Ottoman Empire, there were only around 15,000 Jews in Palestine. When Herzl and Rothschild asked for more to be admitted, the Ottoman Sultan refused, because he understood that mass migration of Jews into Palestine would undermine social cohesion.
            He understood that the current levels of Jewish population were acceptable to all others living in historic Palestine.
            It was the Zionists and their insistence on forcing mass migration of Jews into historic Palestine which caused all the inter-ethnic problems that arose later.
            That plus the stupidity of the British administration for allowing mass migration from Europe and for allowing the Jewish National Fund to operate land appropriation on a large scale, resulting in ordinary Palestinians being forced off the land they had lived on and tended for centuries, if not millennia.
            Don’t waste your time trying to stick inapplicable labels on me. I throw those labels back into your face with wholesale contempt for your disgusting mind to even contemplate such ideas. Computer scientists use a term: GIGO, which stands for Garbage IN, Garbage Out – which seems to be completely appropriate to your state of mind.

          • Cogra Bro

            What happened in Palestine is happening here in Britain. Millions of ethnic aliens with an historically hostile religion are being allowed to settle in the middle of someone else’s historic territory.

            If the same kind of warlike turmoil develops here eventually, don’t be in the least bit surprised.

          • johndowdle

            Do you realise what you are saying above?

            Are you describing Zionists when you state ‘Millions of ethnic aliens with an historically hostile religion are being allowed to settle in the middle of someone else’s historic territory.’?
            What do you mean by ‘here’? Israel, Palestine – or the UK?
            If the latter, I think you are being overly and unnecessarily alarmist. Britain has absorbed countless migrants for thousands of years. Indeed, like historic Palestine, we can trace people living here for more than 750,000 years.

          • Guest

            VIVA ZIONISM AND LONG LIVE THE WONDERFUL COUNTRY OF ISRAEL!!

          • johndowdle

            Reduced finally to your natural level of cheap sloganizing.
            Pathetic denialism of the worst sort.

          • Cogra Bro

            We can trace people living here yo the last ice age, and most of the native British have the DNA of those ice agers.

            Contrary to what the left propagandises, this country was until within living memory, one of the most racially, culturally and religiously homogenous societies on earth.

            We hadn’t been invaded for nigh on a millennium, giving time for the various dark age nvaders to meld

          • johndowdle

            Ultimately, we are all part of the human species homo sapiens sapiens. We are all descended from a very small group of individuals who lived in Africa a long time ago.
            And that includes everyone living today on our planet.
            Differences in belief systems does not change that reality.
            Further, the truth is that there is no such thing as a racially pure or ethnically pure species of human beings anywhere.
            As you say, the Celts were linked to Spain and the Saxons and Vikings linked to Germany-Denmark and the Nordic countries. But where did they come from before that?
            Having lived, worked and played on a number of continents (though not yet all of them), I do find I feel a sense of relief whenever I return back to England; not because it is familiar but also because it is one of the few countries I have found where toleration and freed speech if truly practiced.
            There is plenty wrong with our media, especially the extent to which is skews coverage and perpetuates bias and stereotypes but, overall, I believe we in the UK still live in one of the freest countries in the world, which is something we should all be grateful for and should all be prepared to defend at all times.

          • Cogra Bro

            Sure, we are all human beings. But to deny the differences between the various sub species is to close one’s eyes to reality.

          • johndowdle

            You do realise that what you are stating above would have been perfectly acceptable as Nazi racist ideology?
            There are no sub-species. We are all members of just one species: home sapiens sapiens. We may contain some DNA from earlier homo neanderthalus but only a tiny proportion.
            There is only one “race”: the human “race”.
            If your views are representative of Zionists generally, it is little wonder that most civilised people consider such views to be racist and supremacist, just like the Nazis and their former supporters such as the Nationalists in apartheid South Africa.

          • Cogra Bro

            I am well aware that Marxist ideology classifies these remarks as ‘racist’.

            My opinions are formed on the basis of the facts as I see them, not on the basis of a political ideology. I fail to see why these facts are empirically incorrect just because the nazis might have agreed with them, at least up to a point.

            As it happens, they were the opinions of most of those who fought and destroyed the nazis. The fact that one appreciates that the races differ does not mean that one assumes that one’s own race is necessarily superior in any way or want to gass others in huge numbers.

            That is the non sequitur put out by the left which deliberately identifies the ordinary human desire to live amongst one’s own ethnic kind with Marxism.

            today,notwithstanding the overwhelmingly cultural Marxist flavour of education and the media.

          • johndowdle

            If your views are representative of most Israelis, it is little wonder that the United Nations Human Rights Council has slammed Israel 46 to 1.

            See http://www.intifada-palestine.com/2014/04/real-story-un-human-rights-council-europe-slams-israeli-crimes/.
            It is attitudes like yours that are turning Israel into a pariah state and delegitimising Israel.
            And you are doing this all by yourself.
            When will you ever learn?

  • http://biasedbbc.proboards.com/index.cgi Teddy Bear

    It is clear that not all Muslims are the same, and not all embrace the radical passages in the Quran exhorting them to kill the infidels. I’ve not really understood how any emancipated Muslims were able to justify their position and remain true to their faith. So thanks Irshad for this glimpse into how you do, and what steps you are taking to make it more widespread.

    • Terry Field

      But it is all alien codswallop, and why must England be so degraded?

  • subwus

    Good luck with that.

    From the Daily Torygraph today:
    Christian sentenced to death for blasphemy in Pakistan

    Arrest of Sawan Masih after drunken row last year prompted Muslim mob to burn
    hundreds of homes in eastern city of Lahor
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/pakistan/10729351/Christian-sentenced-to-death-for-blasphemy-in-Pakistan.html

    I hope you are sincere. But if Dr Taj Hargey, a reformist Muslim, can get listed on Islamophobia Watch, what do you think your chances of success really are?

    http://www.islamophobiawatch.co.uk/taj-hargey-jumps-on-muslim-grooming-bandwagon/

  • Bill Thomas

    Madam – you are obviously not the sort of Muslim who saws the head off of-duty soldiers; nor do you advise genital mutilation; nor do you go about masked apart from your eyes.

    But – if you are so clearly wedded to the path of oderation and reform – where are the million man and woman marches that you are organising, so that “moderate” Muslims can say NO MORE killing in our name?

    Until we in the West see palpible evidence that most Muslims are against the terrible acts committed by some Muslims – mainly against each other – we won’t believe a word you say.

    • KingGreen

      they don’t exist

      apparently we’re supposed to believe they do, because 1 or 2 arabic-named guys come here and tell us that we should

      if they’d spend half their time organising ‘moderate’ muslim anti-terrorist marches that show us that they stand WITH us instead of AGAINST us, instead of coming here trying to convince us with empty words, maybe we’d get somewhere

  • Robinoz

    1. No you can’t reclaim it.

    2. The “fanatics” have actually read the bizarre, psychotic “Koran” and are following it. You are not.

    3. Mohammed (like Hitler) was mentally ill. This is so obvious one has to question why any sane person reading the Koran would become a Muslim.

    • Dave Cockayne

      Be careful, if you carry on saying negative things about Hitler’s character you might be accused of hatemongering Naziphobia by some feminists in the Guardian.

      • Cogra Bro

        You are being too kind to Adolph who was simply evil, as was his oppo, co mass murderer Stalin.

        • Dave Cockayne

          I wasn’t being kind to Hitler, I was being sarcastic about the Islamophobia industry defending the actions of Mohammed.

  • MWnyc

    Always good to read Irshad Begum!

  • esra

    Islam is very nice

    • Gwangi

      Islam very nice?
      Yes, especially with mint sauce.

    • anotherjoeblogs

      as much as that comment was succinctly convincing

  • Jesus Actionfigure

    When “moderate” or “reformist” muslims can start making an intelligible case for rejecting the quran’s order to whip people, articles like this may not be so laughable.

    http://quran.com/24/2

    I can think of no other religion with “mainstream” members so ready to embrace brutal authoritarianism.

  • Harduhort

    The media, historians. politicians, neo-marxist progressives and the elite in general like to present Islam in a very distorted way.

    Get educated:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t_Qpy0mXg8Y

  • KingGreen

    In response to the main subject of this article, after reading all the comments, and analysing them a little, here’s what has transpired:

    not 1 single Muslim has come on this article to comment about how fanaticism has destroyed the trust and relations between Muslim and non-Muslims.
    While most people have discussed here with historical facts and logical conclusions, most pro-Muslim posts, have been an amalgamation of lies, half-truths, whattabouthery, colonialism, and of course, a couple of good old fashion jew-bashers thrown in, who blame jews/zionists for everything bad that Muslims are doing around the world to everyone else and each other.

    so in short, no, I don’t think that Muslims will reclaim Islam from fanatics, because I don;t think they differ much – they prove it here: they lie about historical facts that can easily be checked, they blame everyone else but themselves for everything wrong in their own countries under their own laws (even without a single zionist or american around, apparently somehow it’s still their fault), and as soon as they hear something they don;t like, they’ll VERY IRONICALLY point towards hatred, intolerance, racism etc as if those were;t the main requirements for ISLAM…!

    Thank you Muslims on this comment section for reinforcing the view I have of you. You have done absolutely nothing to change my mind.
    I still believe (very sadly) that the moderate Muslim will hold our feet, while the fanatic Muslim will cut our head.

    And that’s all folks.

  • Terry Field

    Why can’t moslems just piss of and do their radical stuff somewhere else?
    Why in dear, kind, gentle England do we have to have these aliens?

    • Harduhort

      Because the the fruits of islam in the 60 Islamic countries is to intolrable for radical Muslims. They have made their own countries like deserts (economically, politically, culturally, spiritiually and mentally). The green pastures and hills of England looks much sweeter baby.

      That is…until England has become a “transformed”. Then the same desertification will take place here as well.

      • Cogra Bro

        Emigrate now, while there is still time. Leave dear old, destroyed England to the multiplying muslims and their idiot, to-be Dhimmis, the liberals and multiculturalists.

        They deserve everything that’s coming to them at the hands of their future masters who have ages – old axes to grind against them, and us.

        • KingGreen

          i totally agree
          they have turned all their countries into a rubble of squalor, death, poverty and filth and will exactly thew same with our countries

  • Perseus Slade

    If Islam wasn`t Islam it would`t be a problem.
    Trouble is that as it is, it is.
    If Islam is not as detailed in the Koran, whatever might it be?
    Mr Manji is clutching at a straw religion.
    Reform is just the first step in the process of admitting that the whole thing is a load of rubbish: spit it out Mr. Manji and you will feel a whole lot better (cognitive dissonance is an uncomfortable thing).

    • amie

      “Mr” Manji is female.

      • Perseus Slade

        That would be Ms. Manji then.
        Sorry for that.

        • Cogra Bro

          Do Muslims, even ‘reformed ones ‘ describe themselves as ‘ms’?

          Somehow I doubt it.

  • andyrwebman

    Those who claim that free speech and islam are compatible might do well to examine this quote from the haddith sunnah regarding what the prophet condoned when a woman tried to criticise him. It speaks for itself.

    “A blind man had a slave-mother [a slave who bore children for him] who used to abuse the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) and disparage him. He [the blind man]
    forbade her but she did not stop. He rebuked her but she did not give
    up her habit. One night she began to slander the Prophet
    (peace_be_upon_him) and abuse him. So he [the blind man] took a
    dagger, placed it on her belly, pressed it, and killed her. A child who
    came between her legs was smeared with the blood that was there. When
    the morning came, the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) was informed about it.

    He assembled the people and said: I adjure by Allah the man who has
    done this action and I adjure him by my right to him that he should
    stand up. Jumping over the necks of the people and trembling the man
    stood up.

    He sat before the Prophet (peace be upon him) and said: Apostle of
    Allah! I am her master; she used to abuse you and disparage you. I
    forbade her, but she did not stop, and I rebuked her, but she did not
    abandon her habit. I have two sons like pearls from her, and she was my
    companion. Last night she began to abuse and disparage you. So I took a
    dagger, put it on her belly and pressed it till I killed her.

    Thereupon the Prophet (peace be upon him) said: Oh be witness, no retaliation is payable for her blood.”

  • balance_and_reason

    Ladies and Gentlemen, may I just point out that there is no god, really; so shall we just call the whole thing off.

  • Cogra Bro

    There are at least 109 verses that call Muslims to war with non-believers for the sake of Islamic rule, including those which demand that infidels’ heads and fingers be chopped off and that they be killed wherever they may be hiding. Muslims who do not join the fight are called ‘hypocrites’ and are warned that Allah will send
    them to hell. There are few pacific verses that abrogate or balance the
    overwhelmingly aggressive, violent tone of the Qur’an.

    Bien pensant Liberals who close their eyes to the Reality of ‘The Religion of Peace’ such as the deeply foolish Tony Blair, his acolyte, David Cameron and many others in the political class, inevitably run up against those words which, let us never forget, and the Salafist ‘fundamentalists’ certainly remember, are directly and unassailably those of Allah.

    Apologists try to relativise them by setting them in a historical context. But the problem there is that such verses did not arise in a defensive context but in periods
    when Mohammed and his followers were in the ascendant.

    Thus, Surah 2:191-193 of the Qur’an arose at a time when Mohammed had
    relocated to Medina and was an injunction to Muslims to drive Meccans out of
    their own city:

    “And kill them wherever you find them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out’… and fight them until there is no more Fitnah [disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allah] and worship is for Allah alone. But if they cease, let there be no transgression except against Az-Zalimun (the polytheists, and wrong-doers,” etc.)

    ‘Moderate’ Muslims betray Islam. Moderate‘ muslims are ‘moderate‘ often because, like the mystical Sufis of Timbuctu or Banglasdesh, they have historically been deep within the House of Islam, far from the Infidel and / or because they want a quiet life and / or influenced by Christianity close their eyes to the possibility that the Qur’an means exactly what it appears to mean.
    These Muslims and Western apologists for Islam who, interestingly, are so ready to traduce Christianity, must then run up against the behaviour of Mohammed, the exemplarof the ‘perfect man’ in Islam who executed by decapitation 800- 900 men and boys of the Jewish Qurayza tribe in Medina who had dared to refuse to convert. He enslaved the women and children. These actions were hardly ‘defensive’ and are impossible to relativise.

  • mahatmacoatmabag

    the 3 greatest myths of the past century are:-
    1) that Socialism ( Marxist / Labour / National Socialist ) actually works
    2) that there is such a thing as moderate Islam & that Islam is a peaceful religion
    3) the Myth of a Palestinian Arab people

  • Dutchnick

    Which of the 53 members of the Organisation of Islamic States is a model for the rest of civilisation?. Even by their own miserable standards it would appear that not one is Sharia compliant and every index of honesty, lack of corruption, freedom of speech(and thought!) achievement etc etc has these nations populating the bottom of every table. I would propose that the unrest and anti western attitude is a backlash to their own lack of understanding that personsal responsibility is the answer and the sad belief that some Allah provided solution is the answer to everything will keep them in a depressing state of failure and resentment. Actually the greatest victim of Islam are the Muslims.

    • Cogra Bro

      Insh’allah.

  • One Thirsty Bear

    Over the long term, all forms of collectivism depend upon plunder and require certain people to decide who gets what, when, how, and in what quantities.

  • guymacher

    Iirshad, I am an admirer so please take this as advice from a loving brother. Islam cannot be reformed because it is hateful to the core. The Christian Reformation was one of dogma, not doctrine. If Islam is to reform, it must be gutted of its doctrine and thus will not be Islam. May Jesus protect you, Irshad.

  • LOULOUGSTP

    Well my dear, Lots of try sorry, but sorry ! too many bad things happenned to my friends (muslims) (some are receiving deetah threath) Some are force into marage, some to wear the veil )Obliged) Some will be torture and intimidated etc.. And this is in Canada. What are you going to do for those that wants to impose Charia laws? Between me and you, there are no Freedom , no humans rights in Charia. women will always be the losser in Charia. And they said this is equality betwwen men and women ? Sorry to burst your bubble. If you want to go into your mosque and teach the Imam some manners may be the wolrd can be better. But right now, segragation is there and there are no way that we will accept segregation and those that refuse to live with us. Those that refuse our laws… Simple !

  • LOULOUGSTP

    I Love you Dearly and I wish I could talk to you here in Montreal… Would it be possible one day ? Love you as a human being, religion has nothing to do with being a good person or not. This is my message ! Love !

  • http://islam.com/ arthur disbury

    70% of the Koranic War Manual is about the kuffa, you and me!!! When the proper muslamascums take over they are the proper Savages, and any minor SAVAGE talking about reform will be butchered as an apostate!!! The whole ethos of the SAVAGES Is to subjugate the whole world under sharia, and they are the words of the paedophile prophet!!!.

  • George Allegro

    The term “rule of law” is used to describe rules, such as those defined in the United States’ Constitution, designed to preserve liberty by placing limits upon centralized government’s power to coerce and control.

  • dr mahmud

    Irshad, nobody said you must remain within the Islamic fold. If you are too wise to practice Islam as revealed to and practiced by the holy prophet of Islam who you simply despised why can’t you leave or even become an atheist in order to save your self the stress of trying to disprove what Allah has revealed for the sake of satisfying your pay masters.

  • bruce lorraine

    Thanks but I’ve had my fill of taqiyya this morning.

  • Bestuv Burke

    Peace and prosperity do not exist because of democratic methods, but because citizens are guided by respectable laws aligned with morality.

  • Iman

    Good job Irshad. In this short article, you succeeded in pinpointing the problem and suggesting solutions. Thank you

  • Sawn Wells

    Good. Hope everything better. I once bought a pair of Cheap Oakley Sunglasses . It’s very excellent.

  • Mglass

    It appears that the actions of ISIL have been so outrageous that it has prompted a reaction amongst Muslims against it. There may have been fatwas condemning violence before, but the “Not in my name” movement seems to me to be something new.

    I believe that once more moderate voices within the Muslim community will help to change not only Muslim attitudes but these voices will also help change attitudes of others towards Muslims.

  • Kubilay

    Selamu aleykum. I read some comments in the Internet about salat 5 times prayers Ibadet some moslems claim that if a mumin does not perform salat he/she will be burned in hell fire in JEHENNAM there’s no such threat in the Qur’an! So they must have got this message from the SHEYTAN mel’un, said by (Sahabi/ Prophet -Hadith vallahualem) The DEJJAL is at Work now! Moslems wake up, Sheytan might look like a man and preach about Islam & nobody would be aware of it… Allah C.C. is Gafur-ur-Rahim… Kubilay Han..

    • Terry Field

      Only an INADEQUATE would get up at a silly hour in the morning to pray unless they are threatened by ‘submission’ (islam). You make a point that proves the revers of your wish – Submissionists are brain-washed to comply. Then if they wish to leave they are killed. What a load of barbaric nonsense. Get a life, stop being daft.

  • Red Chili

    Islam is not a religion of peace and we should know it before getting too late. Pathetic!

  • Rick Nash

    All immigrants who choose to come to the US and Canada and rest of the western world should atleast have a little love towards the country they chose to live and all fanatic Islamists (i am talking about fanatics only not the good ones) should be confined to their region only and not allowed to move anywhere in the world. World should unite to deny them VISA. Develop alternatives of petrol and diesel
    So all non muslims around the world can live in peace and harmony these people bring bad name to all other emigrants who work their Ass off pay their taxes and obey the rules of the country who chose to move and live happily with their customs and the people of the country these muslim fanatics oppose everything

    how many of us know in any muslim country ther is no freedom of speech or freedom to practise reigion to non muslims they cannot even build any temples or churches non muslim women ae raped and non muslim men are tortured to convert to islam they amke fun of all non islamic reigon calling them Fakkir and say death to non muslims in Mosques
    Please let us save Canda from these Fantics who are slowly going to turn Canada to a Islamic State just wath but als non of us will be alive to see our kids growing like a stranger in thir own country thanks to our pliticians who are more intereted in getting their votes

  • http://www.quranful.com TALAL ITANI

    I think by reading Quran, understanding it, practicing it, sharing it with others.
    Not just a few select verses, but the Quran in its entirety.
    Quran is here: http://www.clearquran.com Who dares to read it?

  • shaunthebrummie

    more left wing apologising..all muslims are the same..all are the enemy of non muslims…sooner they are made to return to the islamic lands they wish this country to imitate the better..the fuse has been lit…lets hope its a short one

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