Features

Scots and English are the same people, with different accents. Why pretend otherwise?

Why are unionists so scared to talk about what unites us?

12 April 2014

9:00 AM

12 April 2014

9:00 AM

Sometimes it is easy to understand why countries break up. Some founder on the rocks of their internal contradictions. Others are historical conveniences that have simply run their course. Czechoslovakia was an artificial construct, a country with two languages and cultures, which split soon after the Iron Curtain fell. The division of Cyprus in 1974 marked the end of the fraternity between the island’s Turks and Greeks. The partition of India was driven by trouble between its Hindus and Muslims. It’s a constant, often tragic theme in history — people decide that what divides them is stronger than what unites them. So they split, often at great cost.

Until recently, the United Kingdom would have been seen as a safe bet for the long haul: a wealthy, law-based, highly integrated, mature democracy, the kind of country others aspire to be. Our component nations share the planet’s most influential language and its dominant culture, and provided the intellectual soil out of which the enlightened West grew.

Yet in a referendum on 18 September, Britain’s northern quarter may decide that its differences with the south have become irreconcilable, and choose to walk away. The days of double-digit opinion poll leads for the ‘Better Together’ campaign are long gone, and Alex Salmond has enough momentum to further close the gap. Those seeking to save the UK have spent too much time pointing out the pitfalls of independence, and not enough creating a compelling, optimistic case for staying in the Union. As a result, they now stand a very real chance of losing the argument.

The Scottish National Party has been in government in Edinburgh for the past seven years and, in that time, has used every lever at its disposal to emphasise the difference between Scotland and England — real or imagined. The strategy, while morally reprehensible, has been quite effective. An ever-growing range of services, such as prescriptions and university tuition, have been made ‘free’. Council tax has been frozen. Private-sector involvement in public services is denounced as the agenda of the profit-driven south. Education and welfare reforms are used as a stick with which to beat Westminster. All of it is intended to drive home a subliminal message: that Scotland simply cares more than England.

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The Nats are aided by useful idiots in the Scottish media and cultural elite. From comfortable middle-class pads in the less affordable parts of Glasgow and Edinburgh, these socialist tub-thumpers promise that a left-wing tartan utopia is within grasp, and that a ‘yes’ vote can save the grimy-faced, honest-as-the-day-is-long Scots toiler from exploitation by effete Tory thieves in London. They advance the idea of Scots as being nicer, fairer, more attached to the brotherhood of man.

The SNP and its allies are playing a game that is still not properly understood in London: to them, the coming referendum is not really about oil, the pound or Brussels. It is cast as a battle of values — the caring vs the selfish. Quite some accomplishment, given that all this has as much basis in reality as does Brigadoon.

There is, in fact, almost no difference between the views of the average Scot and the average English person — as the research proves. Take the latest Scottish Social Attitudes survey, the single most authoritative survey of opinion on politics and policy. It found that 60 per cent of Scots want Britain either to leave the EU or at least to reduce its powers — up from 40 per cent ten years ago. So much for the myth of Scottish Europhilia.

Or what about the idea that Scots regard Iain Duncan Smith’s welfare reforms as unduly harsh? In reality, just 21 per cent want more spending on benefits for unemployed people, while 43 per cent want to see it reduced. Hardly a world apart from England, where a similar poll found 52 per cent believe benefits to be so high that they discourage work.

And the notion that Scotland is more welcoming to newcomers than the xenophobic Little Englanders? More dewy-eyed nonsense. Some 47 per cent worry that the nation would begin to lose its identity ‘if more people from Eastern Europe came to live in Scotland’, and 49 per cent say the same about more Muslims. In England, 44 per cent believe that Britain’s cultural life is undermined by immigrants.

It’s certainly true that support for Ukip is far lower in Scotland — but it’s hard to argue that this is because Scots are mad keen on Europe, or relaxed about mass immigration. It might be because Scots have their own separatist party — which is rather good at playing the outsider and denigrating near-neighbours (all in the name of compassion and diversity, of course).

What little divergence there is comes down to a mix of rather obvious things — the cultural hangover of anti-Thatcherism, which keeps the Tories at a low ebb north of the border; a political culture that, since devolution, has become inward-looking and self-obsessed to an unsettling degree; an elite that relentlessly claims Scots are more compassionate, more egalitarian, less racist and kinder to babies than the English.

It has been a major failing of the Unionist campaign that this idea has gone largely unchallenged. At heart, Britain is not about the Barnett Formula or an optimal currency area; we inhabitants of these islands are the same people. It’s there in our culture and in our language — with its shared phrases and idioms and slang, and the ideals that they frame and shape. In the five months left until polling day, let’s remind Scots that we’re a’ Jock Tamson’s bairns — even the English.

Chris Deerin is a columnist for the Scottish Daily Mail.


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Show comments
  • RolftheGanger

    This article does not address the issues of Scotland under the Union government, of lack of democratic control; economic structural discrimination in favour of the SE; ongoing application of inappropriate economic, social, political and cultural legislation and regulation; divergent attitudes and values as to HOW issues are addressed rather than what is addressed.

    Instead we get a slightly less inflated version of the usual Unionist meaningless sloganizing about “Better Together”

    Readers need the specifics as to why this skates across the surface and does not address Scottish long standing disaffection with Union government ( as opposed to the fellow population)

    “Sometimes it is easy to understand why countries break up”.
    The UK is a state. Founded by two countries, England and Scotland.

    Two opposite views of the reality, straight off.

    The immediate deflection to the negativity of the No Campaign. 145 countries declared independence since WWII. Is this a cause for celebration of the principles of self government and democracy – or not? The examples are biased. Scots immediately think of the shared monarchies of Sweden-Denmark-Norway and their dissolution, particularly the totally peaceful 1905 referendum for Norway to become independent.

    “Some founder on the rocks of their internal contradictions. Others are historical conveniences that have simply run their course” For self government Scots, both arguments apply to the Union. The EU has superseded the UK as an umbrella organisation and the contradictions of a country being governed from its ten times larger neighbour are manifest.
    .

    • W David Rodger

      Excellent! The Spectator/Daily Mail is employing the wrong writer!

    • Fergus Pickering

      Saying No tends to be negative, I find.

  • Malcolm McCandless

    There is nothing Scottish about the Scottish Daily Mail.

    • dado_trunking

      Kim Karmankurdistan isn’t English either.

  • dougthedug

    The drive for independence in Scotland isn’t fundamentally economic. If it was then northern regions of England would also be arguing for their own independence and to ditch London.

    The drive for independence has always been based on the fact that many in Scotland have their own sense of national identity and regard the UK as a collection of nations not a nation in its own right.

    Both this article and the similar “Shakespeare invented Britain. Now he can save it” by Dan Hannan are simply re-stating the old and often used argument that Scotland as a separate nation and identity don’t exist. In other words Scotland has always been a rightful province of England and Scottish independence is and always has been an aberration.

    The major failing of the Unionist campaign has always been its failure to recognise a Scottish identity. It doesn’t understand why Scots want to leave so it can’t mount an effective campaign to keep them.

    • ItinerantView

      “failure to recognise a Scottish identity”

      Scotland’s strength is its diversity said Alex,another Nat said there’s no ethnic identity to being Scottish, anyone can be Scottish.

      So what is the Scottish identity, if as the Nats say, there’s no ethnic component, Scotland is a nation of immigrants and being Scottish is merely a state of mind ?

      • George Glen

        Interesting points but I think that Scotland has both Identity AND diversity. It is not a nation of immigrants, the majority of people can trace their family history in Scotland. I agree it’s hard to classify the identity though. Not that it really matters since 80% of Scottish residents identify themselves as Scottish, whatever they themselves might mean by that! The practical point that really matter is that Scotland elected an SNP government with clear policies that they have delivered on. That gives many people confidence that Scotland can and should have full control over it’s destiny, something not offered by the union. Ultimately the referendum is about democracy and self-determination, not really identity.

        • CraigStrachan

          “an SNP government with clear policies they have delivered on.”

          That’s an interesting way to put it. How’s that local income tax as a replacement for the rates coming along?

          • Jeanne Tomlin

            Well, you found one they didn’t deliver. Can you manage another? Not many.

          • CraigStrachan

            Well, they also didn’t use, and ultimately gave up, the power to vary income tax.

          • Jeanne Tomlin

            First, the power to vary income tax was not ‘given up’ and in fact didn’t even exist because:

            Second, the power was only to raise it which everyone knew was useless.

            Third, any raise went to Westminster, not Scotland, and was matched by a reduction in the Barnett Formula.

            Fifth: Where is that in the SNP manifesto, pray tell? The SNP wants complete control, including the right to both raise and lower, over ALL Scottish taxes.

          • CraigStrachan

            Which taxes do they propose to lower?

          • Jeanne Tomlin

            Do a wee bit of research.

          • CraigStrachan

            Why can’t you tell me?

          • Jeanne Tomlin

            That I’m not does not mean I couldn’t. If you are going to vote ‘Naw’ you should do enough research to have some clue about the issues. There are taxes they propose to lower which have been much discussed. That you don’t know what they are says a lot.

          • CraigStrachan

            Oh, I know they plan to cut taxes on corporations, presumably in an attempt to bribe them not to up sticks. But what about for ordinary individual Scots?

          • Jeanne Tomlin

            They also plan to cut APD which is paid by ordinary individual Scots as well as tourists. That also could also have a big impact on increasing tourism.

          • CraigStrachan

            I’d also be suspicious of announced plans, seeing as how the SNP now have quite a record of announcing plans they can’t deliver. Such as the announced plan to replace the council tax with a local income tax. Or the announced plan for a sterling currency union.

          • Jeanne Tomlin

            No political party ever achieves all of their goals. That is true of every party but the SNP comes closer than most. However, saying that they won’t achieve a currency union before the negotiations is getting a lot ahead of yourself. You don’t know that in the least. I believe that they will because it is obviously best for the UK that a currency union will happen.

          • CraigStrachan

            That doesn’t appear to be the view of all the UK parties.

          • Jeanne Tomlin

            So you are going to tell me THEY do exactly what they say after a campaign is over–like no student fees. What they say when they’re campaigning and what they’ll do afterwards are not going to be the same thing.

          • CraigStrachan

            They MIGHT say something different about currency union after the campaign, but I wouldn’t bet the farm on it, which is what the SNP is asking you to do.

          • Jeanne Tomlin

            There will be negotiations afterwards and if they want Scotland to do certain things like take a share of the debt, then they’ll have to give up some things such as currency union. You may have an idea that they hold all the cards, but they don’t.

            In fact, we could manage quite well without a currency union, but we won’t have to.

          • CraigStrachan

            Well, that’s your bet, and it’s a pretty big one. On long odds too.

          • Jeanne Tomlin

            Not at all. The FM has made it pretty clear what his negotiating position is and it is one with a very strong hand.

          • CraigStrachan

            It is one that has been dismissed out-of-hand by the UK Treasury and all the UK parties.

          • Jeanne Tomlin

            Mmmm hmmm… And has been since been denied by various other parties and totally unable to backup claims of substantiation. But if you believe the Whitehall bunch, that’s your choice. I have seen their lies too many times to believe a word that comes out of their mouths. I suppose you also believe there will be a world-wide cataclysm if Scotland becomes independent.

          • CraigStrachan

            And yet this is the bunch you are depending on for your currency union.

          • Jeanne Tomlin

            For once, I will concede that you have a valid point. The economists say it is the sensible plan; I also concede that their argument seems solid and makes sense. That doesn’t make it my personal preference. I hope it would be a relatively short lived transitional arrangement. Given a choice, I’d have our nation have no connection to the lying, corrupt UK government. On the other hand, we’re neighbors so in practical terms that isn’t going to happen. We will still trade and have to manage to get along.

          • Fergus Pickering

            No.Jeanne. Few people will care one way or the other. Why should they?

          • HJ777

            So you think that it is reasonable for a seceded Scotland to force another country into a currency union it doesn’t want with threats?

            Let us suppose that you little plan works (implausible though it is). Unless you are proposing suspension of democracy in the rest of the UK, what is stopping it from subsequently withdrawing from a currency union if this is the policy of an elected government after a general election?

          • HJ777

            Please tell me how likely you think it is that the SNP would admit to any plans to raise taxes in a seceded Scotland.

            Their whole campaign is about upsides whilst ignoring downsides.

          • HJ777

            The SNP does, indeed, want the power to raise and lower ALL Scottish taxes in a seceded Scotland.

            At the same time it also wants to be an EU member and it wants a currency union with the rest of the UK – both of which will severely restrict the decisions it can make on taxes.

            The SNP’s policy is called “we want to have our cake and eat it”

          • HJ777

            What about the SNP’s school class size promises?

          • dougthedug

            It’s not going to happen because Westminster decided that the £400 million they send to make up the difference where household can claim a reduction in their Council Tax under Westminster rules will not be sent under Local Income Tax.

          • CraigStrachan

            Will the 400 million still be sent from Westminster after independence? If not, will council tax rates have to rise?

          • dougthedug

            Of course money won’t come from Westminster after independence. And we won’t send the subsidy south either.

          • CraigStrachan

            So council tax rates will have to rise?

          • dougthedug

            No. We get to keep all the money we currently send to Westminster.

          • CraigStrachan

            And lose all the money Westminster sends the other way, including the 400 million that currently subsidises council tax.

          • dougthedug

            We lose the small percentage of our money that Westminster sends back.

          • CraigStrachan

            So the Scottish government would have to find 400 million, on top of its other spending committments, to replace the council tax subsidy?

          • dougthedug

            No. We wouldn’t send them that £400 million in the first place so them not sending it back is not an issue.

          • CraigStrachan

            So you say, but has the Scottish government committed to maintaining the full subsidy for council tax rates?

          • dougthedug

            They intend to get rid of Council Tax.

          • CraigStrachan

            They intended to get rid of it when they first came in, and seven years on they haven’t managed it yet.

          • dougthedug

            Because they only have the powers of a regional government not a national one.

          • CraigStrachan

            They probably shouldn’t have made a promise they couldn’t deliver on, then. But make it they did.

          • ItinerantView

            “only have the powers of a regional government not a national one.”
            and that’s all they’ll ever have in the EU.

          • Jambo25

            No.

          • CraigStrachan

            How no?

          • Jambo25

            Because that would only be the case if an iScotland continued with exactly the same policies in place at present.

          • CraigStrachan

            So they won’t continue the central govt top-up to the council tax take?

          • Jambo25

            We may have gone to local income tax by then so I don’t know and neither do you.

          • CraigStrachan

            “I don’t know and neither do you” should be the slogan of the Yes campaign. It’s all a bit sketch.

          • Jambo25

            And neither do the BT people. That’s the thing about the future. We don’t know what’s going to happen. None of us do. Oh! apart from death.

          • CraigStrachan

            Well, the UK has the advantage of familiarity. It’s a known quantity. It’s up to the YES folks, who are proposing such a major change, to make the case for why it would be worth the risk, something they seem strangely unable to do.

          • Jambo25

            Depends whether you see anything worth supporting in the Union

          • CraigStrachan

            I suppose, but then you’d expect them to be able to make a powerful case against it. Seems to me their whole campaign is based on the (questionable) premise that “nothing much will change”.

          • terregles2

            Scotland will use all our own resources to pay for all own services.
            4000 million on council tax do you know the billions that are being poured down the drain to replace Trident.

          • CraigStrachan

            What would an independent Scotland’s military budget be, to the nearest bilion?

          • HJ777

            Don’t ask her to deal with facts and numbers. She can’t cope.

          • terregles2

            No it just means that we wont squander billions on replacing Trident or giving our taxes to HS2 which will be of no benefit to Scotland. We will also save a few bob when we don’t have the unelected parasites in the House of Lords to waste money on.
            We can also get on with the oil exploration in the Firth of Clyde that was stopped because it was too close to Trident.

          • HJ777

            Yes, it will be all upsides and no downsides, no additional costs.

            Now where is the ‘Yes’ campaign’s assessment of the economic impact of the transitional costs of secession? Where is yours? People who study such things say that they will be substantial and will depress GDP for at least a decade.

            Funny that you never mention them.

          • HenBroon

            Aye were great on the something for nothing stuff eh? Being genetically incapable of making political decisions seems to have improved us since 2007, when the sky started falling after the SNP took power and froze the hated council tax that Labour were increasing at the rate of 6% a year, so hammering the poor, of whom there are many in Labours heartlands. Labour councillors living high on the hog, some of them even becoming millionaires, on cooncillors expenses eh?

            Where is Labours answer to the council tax? Like their answers to so much else. Along in just a minute. They are now campaigning to un freeze it again. Whilst also trying to undermine the SNP by agitating for more powers for councils such as Glasgow, as they cannot challenge the SNP nationally. With Lamont as the mouthpiece Labour is genetically unable to challenge sleep.

        • ItinerantView

          “full control over it’s destiny, something not offered by the union.”

          do you think the EU will give you that ?,

          the SNP want a ‘seamless’ transition within the undemocratic EU, an even more remote and unaccountable Union.The SNP and the other political parties apart from obviously UKIP are not keen on democratic referenda on EU membership.Sovereignty and legal supremacy are in Brussels and Strasbourg.
          The EU suffers from a democratic deficit, there is no such thing as an ‘independent sovereign ‘ nation-state within such a union, so ultimately the vote in Scotland is about the political classes claiming their own place on the gravy train.It’s a pity they’re not real Nationalists, not that I’d support them but we might at least get an honest debate.

          • dougthedug

            We’re already in the EU. Independence cuts out the useless layer of government at Westminster and allows us to represent ourselves directly in Europe.

          • ItinerantView

            The United Kingdom is already in the EU,(which incidentally is not Europe), EU-crats say Scotland on its own,would have to reapply.

            There is no independence in the EU nor is there democracy, hence the formation of the United Kingdom Independence Party who want out.The Scottish government sends ‘convergence’ reports to the EU and follows 20/20 edicts, not much control over ones own destiny there.

          • virtualjoseph

            If you leave the UK you will have to re-apply to the EU.Where Scotland will have less influence with a smaller trading partner thanif part of the UK.
            The EU has its own rapidly growing bureaucracy and quangocracy, with multiple,opaque layers of government t replace any layers in Whitehall with even less accountability.

            It’s about as far from independence a country could get,the SNP are selling big lies.
            If you want independence it is out the EU but the SNP don’t want that do they ?
            they want independence without being independent.

          • Rocksy

            The people I know in Scotland who are voting No, are thinking, better the devil you know. No offense being intended.

          • Rocksy

            ‘honest debate’ and socialism (or in the case of the SNP, marxism), don’t go well together.

        • allymax bruce

          George, I think there’s an archetypal, (Jung), heritage to Scots’ identity; and the constant barrage’ of ‘British’ Psychological Warfare, propaganda, ‘dark noise’ negativity, all purposely combine to render the Scots’ Psyche doubting its-self. I suggest there is an inherent Scots identity, and that as in Hegelian Dialectics, as society changes, so does our perspective of what, who, why we are; but that doesn’t mean to say we, Scots, don’t have an identity; we certainly do! Even if it’s a cringing, self-deprecating one. But, I don’t believe we are said ‘self-deprecating’ to the genuine sense of the word. Moreover, I see ‘cringing’ as a necessary defense mechanism to project said negative hate being pumped into our Scots society by the ‘British’ News. I believe, because we have been bombarded by said ‘negativity’ by the ‘British’ State, then we have used the ‘self-hating/loathing implication/bombardment, as a ‘defense’ against itself; i.e, we laugh at points in our culture/identity where we self-deprecate. I’m writing about how this scenario is used as a Primary Defense Mechanism, against the constant negative hate-propaganda being spewed out by the ‘British’ BBC Scotland News, Newsnight, STV News, Scotland Tonight; etc.

          • ItinerantView

            Some examples of this “hate-propaganda” ?
            A multicultural agenda undermines National identity, that is part of its purpose after all.
            All of this within the context of the EU’s aim to dismantle nation-states and Nationalism and the UN advocating the deliberate undermining of European cultures.
            You think it’s only the Scottish identity receiving this treatment in the West ?

          • allymax bruce

            Hi ItinerantView. Thanks for your reply. I’m sorry, but your first question, is answered by your own third question! I do agree with your second and third ‘points’; Yes, the EU is functionally trying to meld all European Nation-States under their ownership; but Russia, China, and ma’ auld-mate’, da-man, won’t let that happen.

          • ItinerantView

            Can you provide some examples of said propaganda please ?, (for my collection).

            At the risk of missing something really obvious, why wont Russia, China, and yer “auld-mate, da-man”, let it happen ? and who exactly is ‘d’man’ ?
            also,no biggie but how can my first question be answered by my third if I only asked two questions ?

          • Kitty MLB

            Dear, Ally, Scots do indeed have your own
            identity thats quite separate from the English
            identity, but so have the Cornish and indeed
            those from Shetland.It is allowed.

      • dougthedug

        Why does Scottish identity need an ethnic component but British identity doesn’t?

        • ItinerantView

          (Following your lead of answering a question with a question)
          Fine, no ethnic identities,everyone regardless of origin is Scottish or British or whatever, yet the SNP encourage newcomers often from countries with far bigger populations than Scotland, to cement their ethnic identity, why differentiate at all if there’s no ethnic identity to being Scottish ?

          • Jeanne Tomlin

            Because there is such a think as Civic Nationalism. Get over it.

          • ItinerantView

            Absolutely not, it’s far too much fun watching Nats do mental-gymnastics, trying to justify such a convoluted ideology.

          • dougthedug

            What’s convoluted about saying that if you think of yourself as Scottish and regard Scotland as your primary identity and country then you are Scottish.

          • ItinerantView

            When they deny there’s any ethnic Scottish identity but cement other, far more populous nations’ emigrants as ethnic minorities.
            Then say everyone is Scottish but some “feel more Scottish than the white indigenous community”.
            So apparently there’s Scottish and then there’s ‘more Scottish’ and presumably less Scottish.
            http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=-VQM67Xdvx4
            My point in all of this, is it’s divisive and breeds resentment, if it is indeed a Civic Nationalism where everyone is Scottish (like the best bits of the US, where everyone is American,regardless of background) then its about time they stopped cementing other identities and pushing multiculti levers for electoral advantage.

          • virtualjoseph

            “When they deny there’s any ethnic Scottish identity but cement other, far more populous nations’ emigrants as ethnic minorities.”
            When examined it makes a mockery of any ‘equality’.
            It’s also apparently anti-Scottish, so convoluted its gone right up its own @**.
            It always amazes me how Socialists and other leftists are so keen to be beholden to big business and banks that run the EU.
            Tell them any old rubbish about diversity and progress and they’re suckered.

          • agneau

            But you still might note get a vote.

          • Fergus Pickering

            I am certainly Scottish. My primary identity is me. I don’t care much about this nationalist crap.

          • Jeanne Tomlin

            Riiight. All nations are based on blood such as the USA, Canada, Australia, New Zealand…

          • Pochy

            As an American, we have a much more blood compact since the civil war. That war made us go from New Yorkers and Georgians to Americans with New York and Georgian heritage.

          • terregles2

            Why are you obsessing about the SNP. There are five political parties campaigning for a YES vote. After the first post independence general election it could be any one of them who win it.

          • HJ777

            Because it is the SNP’s White Paper that is making policy promises?

          • dougthedug

            Because, unlike your view of identity, for us it’s not a blood line but a sense of who you are.

          • ItinerantView

            My view ?, I haven’t expressed a view on identity,I’ve just been exploring the SNP’s position.

          • dougthedug

            “why differentiate at all if there’s no ethnic identity to being Scottish”?

            Yes you have.

          • ItinerantView

            Show me the quote where I do that please.
            I used SNP members own words,they differentiate themselves and some apparently are more Scottish than others.

          • Guest

            cut

          • DGStuart

            Meaningless waffle.

        • transponder

          Perhaps because other nations of the world accept that the primeval ethnic tie is important not only to loyalty but to identity itself; but we in the West are not allowed to acknowledge this — as if we, not others in the world, would use ethnicity as a basis of oppression!

          But think about it: does anyone seriously or even casually think that being an American Indian has no ethnic component? We are said to have taken ‘their land’. They formed ‘nations’. Why is this so easily accepted for the less advanced peoples but rejected out of hand for sophisticated polities? In short: if you took all the ethnic British out of Britain, would Britons truly still inhabit Britain?

          • dougthedug

            Strangely enough given your example, the United States is probably one of the most diverse nations on earth but at the same time the most loyal to their own identity. You cannot ascribe that to any “primeval” ethnic ties.

          • http://www.drivebyplanet.com/ j_600

            No but you can ascribe it to primeval patriotism and jingoism.

          • Jeanne Tomlin

            You are joking right. The USA and Canada (where there are ‘American Indians’ or more properly ‘indigenous peoples’) most certainly do NOT accept that the ‘primeval ethnic tie is important not only to loyalty but to identity itself…”

            There is absolutely nothing ‘primeval’ in their national identities. This is a rather pathetic claim.

          • transponder

            This is a totally backwards and incoherent comment, dependent on fish-kisses, fairies, and the stars as god’s daisy chain.

          • Jeanne Tomlin

            So you actually think that the all people of the USA and Canada of a multitude of ethnic and racial backgrounds have some sort of ‘primeval ethnic tie’ and you accuse me of talking ‘fish-kisses, fairies, and the stars as god’s daisy chain’? Hahaha!

          • transponder

            No, that wasn’t my point at all — if anything, I was saying the opposite. But you are clearly not capable of rational thought. Goodnight.

          • http://atheismexposed.tripod.com/ True Freethinker

            The only Britons are the Welsh. Cymraeg is the language of the Britons.

            The English are not Britons. The English are Saxons from Germany. The English language is derived from Saxon German dialects with a heavy dose of Norman French.

          • agneau

            Dydych chi ddim yn gwybod beth yr ydych yn sôn amdano.

          • Chris Morriss

            Why doesn’t he? A bit naïve perhaps, but most ethnic English are indeed as ‘True Freethinker’ says.

          • http://atheismexposed.tripod.com/ True Freethinker

            I wonder how many English will understand agneau’s words…..

          • William Clark

            I wonder how many Welsh would understand agneau’s words…..

          • http://atheismexposed.tripod.com/ True Freethinker

            And that illustrates just what a disaster Britain or the UK has been.

          • agneau

            What relevance does it have to the UK, Wales, England etc today? Culture is created by people not vice versa and is dynamic.

          • alexander

            Saxons only contributed a small amount to the gene pool, as did the Celts but a lot in terms of culture. The original language of the original inhabitants would have been something similar to basque and not Celtic or cymraeg. The original inhabitants being the ice age hunter gatherers from Spain from whose genes 65% of the English derive with varying amounts in different regions of England. The linguistic evidence points to the English Language developing in England (funnily enough) over thousands of years due to cultural influence through trade over thousands of years between England and Scandinavia and Germania.

          • http://atheismexposed.tripod.com/ True Freethinker

            Actually that’s outdated. It turns out that R1b, the Y-DNA that most West Europeans (not just Brits) belong to, is more recent and arrived from Eastern Europe just 5000 or so years ago, long after the ice age. R1b split in two, R1b-P312 found in Scotland, Ireland, Wales, France, Spain, Portugal and Italy. So thats Celts and Latins. The other is R1b-U106 found in Germany, Netherlands and England, so thats Germanic/Saxon. Add a little sprinkling of Viking DNA and there you have the separate peoples of these isles.

            The English language really is derived from Germanic Saxon with Viking and Norman French influence. That’s linguistic fact.

          • alexander

            Your theory that you reproduce purports to R1B representing the aggressive spread of indo-europeans rather than the original paleolithic inhabitants of Europe. Even if the theory is true the The Atlantic Celtic branch sub branch of (L21) from R1b-P312 represents at its lowest 10-15% of the genes in the south east and east anglia and 40-50% of the genes in the counties bordering wales and Devon and Somerset for example. So not really separate peoples. Theres no hard evidence of English developing exclusively from the Saxons either who were just one of many Germanic groups over the millenia.

          • Fergus Pickering

            Well, Heavens to Betsy, I never knew that. How much you know, oh True Freethinker.

      • Tom M

        Nice one.

      • Jeanne Tomlin

        How dare Humza Yousaf, SNP MSP, identify himself as Scottish. Bad. Evil. Scots should shut up and sit down including the ones who aren’t ‘really’ Scottish.

        • ItinerantView

          Actually he identifies himself as a “Pakistani Weegie Scot” and wished to take “a further step toward cementing the Scottish-Pakistani identity in Parliament.”
          There was I thinking everyone was Scottish and it’s where we’re going, not where we came from that is important.

          http://www.newsnetscotland.com/index.php/scottish-politics/2411-cultural-scottish-parliament
          http://www.theyworkforyou.com/sp/?id=2011-06-02.18.0&s=speaker%3A25119#g18.11

          • Jeanne Tomlin

            So you have a problem, I take it, with someone identifying as a Pakistani-Scot or a Polish-Scot or an English-Scot. I would say that is your problem, and not his nor mine. Where we come from is still part of us but where we are going is certainly more important.

          • ItinerantView

            You miss the point and it is not me using multiculti levers for electoral advantage, all I’ve done is discuss some of the contradictions and absurdities, that seem to accompany the SNP’s ideological position regarding identity.

            It is revealing though, how people like you are so quick to infer racism just because I asked questions based on quotes from SNP members.

          • Jeanne Tomlin

            That’s a nice excuse for racist remarks.

          • ItinerantView

            Time for your cocoa Jeanne and while you’re at, go on quote me a racist remark, if not (for there isn’t any such remark) reflect on how nasty that accusation actually is.

          • DGStuart

            Do you Nat cunts like you always attempt to close down debate by accusations of racism?

          • Jambo25

            “Nat cunts”? There’s nothing like the cut and thrust of informed debate and this is nothing like it.

          • DGStuart

            Are you denying you are a Nat and a cunt?

          • Jambo25

            One certainly and one possibly depending on the point of view. Its still better than being a foul mouthed half wit like your good self.

          • DGStuart

            I’m glad we have established that you are a cunt. It’s best to acknowledge these thing and fair play that you have done so.

          • Jambo25

            Yet you are still a foul mouthed half wit and swearing at other people won’t change that.

          • DGStuart

            You seem to think I give a fuck what you think about my language to you scum. I take it as a badge of honour that I dismiss you for the filth that you are.

          • Jambo25

            What’s up pal? Did the Huns lose today?

          • DGStuart

            Rangers? Pah! In theory I’m still a Dons fan though I take little interest in going to games these days.

            Nice bit of predictable cliche-mongering though – DOES.NOT.SUPPORT.SCOTTISH.INDEPENDENCE.MUST.BE.RANGERS.SUPPORTER.NOTHING.ELSE.COMPUTES..

          • Jambo25

            Nah! Its just that foul mouthed half wits like you are normally Hun supporters.

          • DGStuart

            Just goes to show how poor your judgement is cunty. On a variety of issues I suspect.

          • ItinerantView

            Agreed.

          • DGStuart

            You really are a totalitarian piece of filth.

          • DGStuart

            Seriously though, when did you first realise that you were a cunt Jeanne?

          • DGStuart

            Loser. Stopped crying yet?

          • Jeanne Tomlin

            I had nothing to cry about. We got up, dusted ourselves off, said ‘that was fun, now let’s do it again.’ It seems to be Labour that is crying copious tears in Scotland.

          • DGStuart

            I’ll bet you were and you’ll be crying more over the years when the frustration and bitterness that you haven’t been and won’t be able to establish your national socialist or Trotskyite nirvana over people’s wishes. You’re fucked – there will never be another independence referendum, at least not in your lifetime and it’s highly unlikely that in the distant future a British state will negotiate away virtually all terms and conditions for one like a limp-dicked David Cameron. Suck it up.

          • Jeanne Tomlin

            Anyone who compares our posts will see which of us is bitter, frustrated and angry and it ain’t me. As for the British state agreeing, let me make it plain: staying in the British state is up to the people of Scotland, not up to the state or a PM. Now I suggest some counselling for that anger.

          • DGStuart

            Well I’m not concerned with what anyone thinks about who is more or less bitter, the point is that you will go to the grave with the knowledge that in a major obsession of your life you have failed utterly – there will be no rerun of the referendum for several decades and the dice will not be loaded to the separatists in the future.

            Your totalitarian leftist cack about ‘the people’ hides your real contempt for individuals and real people, in favour of political movements which are the preserve of minorities and in your case as a piece of leftist filth very much a minority within a minority.

            Your populist rabble rouser and pocket Mussolini, Salmond with the help of the hapless and reactive Cameron and directionless British political classes came as close as he was ever likely to come in a fortuitous (for the separatists) moment in history.

            Go get yourself some therapy to assuage your crushed ego.

          • Jeanne Tomlin

            You really are a very, very angry person. I am not going to answer your bile with bile. I already recommended counselling and I just repeat that suggestion.

          • DGStuart

            You really have no answer and resort to some vague accusation of ‘anger’ to deflect from addressing your essential fascistic nature. Like the Yesser last night who threatened me with physical violence along with his fellow Glaswegian, Celtic supporting, Irish republican, leftist, armchair revolutionary fellow traveller, when he found out I voted No.

            You all follow a long bankrupt totalitarian statist rule by party selected apparatchiks which the public reject overwhelmingly and always will. The only way you will achieve power is by force or deceit and you know that, which makes you angry and bitter.

            Best, as I say, get some therapy to learn to live with your failure.

          • DGStuart

            On the contrary, it’s you that is filled with bile and bitterness at the outcome of Sept 18th. Your dream of Communist revolution is dead and you can’t accept that the Scottish electorate rejected that.

          • Rocksy

            We are going to Hell in a handcart

          • Jeanne Tomlin

            Well, that’s a nice racist way to look at it.

          • virtualjoseph

            Appears you have the problem, you can’t read what’s in front of you.
            Just another wee fas who thinks they’re anti.

          • Rocksy

            There are no hyphenated Scots.

        • ItinerantView

          Use actual quotes from SNP politicians,that
          show the contradictions of their convoluted, political philosophy and cyberNats make accusations of racism.

          So
          eager to take the moral high ground and avoid uncomfortable truths, you project unwarranted bigotry and hatred.

          Says more about their prejudice than anything I’ve said.
          Of which you were unable to quote anything at all to substantiate your accusations.
          So keen to use this anti-democratic device, beloved of authoritarians and p’tit Stalinists, you project hatred
          and bigotry merely because I quoted Humza’s own words, how revealing of the intolerant and politically correct
          Nats mindset.
          A taste of Civic National Socialism, outwardly politically correct,inwardly bitter, parochial and self-righteous.

      • Rocksy

        I’ve travelled a bit and have never drawn attention to being Scottish so it always surprises me to be acknowledged as Scottish by people everywhere I go. Even people who don’t have English as a first language. With a very few exceptions, people seem really pleased to meet me and they, not I make the distinction between England and Scotland.

        • ItinerantView

          I’ve had similar experiences while traveling.
          A few years ago 10 burly,barely clothed Turks surrounded me in a hamam and started slapping me on the back and thighs, I was told they were happy I wasn’t English.
          The English take nearly all the flak for British actions, even though Scots were involved .
          While English identity has been deliberately undermined and demonised, to crush nationalism and facilitate ideological agendas, it seems a more convoluted process in Scotland but it still follows the same path.
          Poking a stick in the byke, those Nats get awful touchy about their ‘civic nationalism’, all one has to do is quote some of their own statements and the bees bizz out.

          • Rocksy

            I never allow any foreigner to insult or abuse the English. I’ve always taken the view that the people of these islands can say what they want about each other but no one else has the right to insult any of us. I point out that if it weren’t for us, most of them would be goose stepping around the countryside of whatever was left of their country.
            By the way your reply to me was substantially longer than the post from you here.

          • RolftheGanger

            Talking about ” bees bizzing out”

            Some got loose from old “Cataclysmic” Georgie Roberson’ over dyed headpiece!!

            I found the perfect “”Lament For The Union” to the pipe tune ‘Deflated Ego’, all ready composed for our Seorais:

            “Remember when you ran away and I got on my knees and begged you not to leave because I’d go berzerk?
            Well, you left me anyhow and the days got worse and worse and now you see I’ve gone completely out of my mind”

            “And -They’re coming to take me away Ha Ha
            They’re coming to take me away ho ho he he ha ha
            to the funny farm where life is beautiful all the time, and I’ll be happy to see those nice young men in their clean white coats
            and they’re coming to take me away ha ha”

            “And They’re coming to take me away Ha Ha
            They’re coming to take me away ho ho he he ha ha
            To the loony bin with all you can eat perscription drugs like thorizine, and lithium, and electric shock and insulin
            They’re coming to take me away Ha Ha”

            Lard – They’re Coming To Take Me Away Lyrics
            http://www.metrolyrics.com/theyre-coming-to-take-me-away-lyrics-lard.html

    • louise

      I have news for you- there are some in northern England who would also like to leave London and the southeast and gain independence – again not simply on economic grounds but on identity and culture as well. We are nearer to Edinburgh – both geographically and in terms of attitudes and interests- than we are to London.Stop lumping us together with the south of England- we couldn’t be more different ( thank goodness!)

      • dougthedug

        But you haven’t got as far as even creating a party which is committed to do that far less elect them into councils or constituencies.

        • louise

          Yet…..

    • Pochy

      I don’t think he is saying that. I think Fraser is saying despite the different identities of the English, Scottish, Welsh and Northern Irish, there is a binding tie that is more than just a social union. Its a sentiment of the common sameness that make them the same countrymen. Its not geographical like Scandinavia. It is partially historic and political- and a lot stronger than just being on the same isles. Its history and politics melding to make ONE identity despite the 4 different distinctnesses.

    • Call me Dave.

      What do you expect? The Tories are unionists.

    • Damon

      “In other words Scotland has always been a rightful province of England… .”
      Typical nationalist debating technique. Invent a grotesquely chauvinist statement, which no-one on the other side has ever actually made, and attack that, rather than engaging with the substantive point.

    • Slicer

      The northern regions of England have the highest deficit in the world – 11.4% – Without massive wealth transfers north from London and the southeast the north of England would be a third world state.

  • Bomius

    Daily Mail columnist – explains the right-wing bias, insulting and derogatory statements about political positions different from his masters….bag o shite Mr Deerin…

  • hoddles

    “Chris Deerin is a columnist for the Scottish Daily Mail.” Jings, crivvens and help ma boab. You could have knocked me down with a feather.

    • scotcanadien

      Says it all really.

  • Cymrugel

    Absolute nonsense from start to finish.
    It’s really quite simple; the SNP went into an election with a set of clearly defined policies and people voted them in. They went into the next election with the same policies and got voted back in again with a massive majority.
    You talk as if they carried out some sort of confidence trick on the gullible Scottish public. They didn’t. The Scottish voters simply do not want to live in a country ruled by a gaggle of right wing nutters intent on squeezing the whole country to provide riches for a small wealthy elite based in London.

    You can talk up a storm about how similar the Scots and the English are – and its true in some ways – but I would also say you won’t be able to squeeze a fag paper between social attitudes here and those in Canada, the USA, Australia and NZ either – so what? There’s is no great swell of support for little Britain or leaving the EU in Scotland.
    As for the morality of the SNP – are you having a laugh? That reactionary rag you work for – the only thing Scottish about which is the word “Scottish” in the title – spends its time running scurrilous stories about half naked teenage celebrities and carefully ensures all the bile it writes about Scotland is carefully excised from its Scottish edition. Getting a lecture on probity from a DM journalist is like being lectured on dieting by Fatty Arbuckle.

    • M4rkyboy

      ‘Getting a lecture on probity from a DM journalist is like being lectured on dieting by Fatty Arbuckle.’
      I lol’d.

  • frank

    Union Jack should speak for the Union, not John Bull. Britain has more than one capital and one of them is in Scotland. Britain is not England and it is more than its parts. This should not be a debate about fragmentation or separation, but a discussion about the enormous potential of our diverse British nation and wonderful land. Britain is a partnership of equals with a common destiny and distinct characteristics that contribute to its overall identity. This debate should help us all understand why the UK in united and if that means making Britain more equal, if needed, then good! The alternative would mean continued fragmentation and decline even unto dust and then oblivion. Reform the Union, don’t break it. I write this as one of Scots, English, Welsh, Irish and French descent.

    • RolftheGanger

      Kindly sentiments Frank, however the views you express are how the UK should operate. Not how it does operate. The Union has been killed off by the total disregard for the principles that you advocate. Sad, but time to move on.
      Regards and best wishes,
      RtG

      • frank

        Thank you Sir. I sincerely hope and trust that at even this late stage those who have clung onto the past, in whatever way, wake up to the benefits (for all) and the real necessity of radical reform of how the Union operates in the future. It’s never too late, or not until the painter is cut and we realise to our peril that we are not two ships drifting apart, but a single vessel that without structural integrity will sink in several parts economically, politically and (yes even) culturally. I am truly grateful for your comment Rolf and wish you the very best, preferably as my continued compatriot wherever you you live on this our beloved island.

        • RolftheGanger

          Thank you kindly.
          Whatever the outcome of the referendum, despite all the hot air, the underlying reality is mutual goodwill from the vast bulk of the populations. Don’t let the alarmist nonsense get to you!
          So often change looks or is talked about as being enormously threatening in advance – and turns out in retrospect to have been both necessary and beneficial.
          There are no problems that human ingenuity, goodwill and effort cannot sort.
          Respectfully, RtG

    • http://weourselves.com/ Christian Wright

      Frank wrote: “Britain is not England”

      Well, sorry to disillusion you Frank, but Britain IS England according to HMG. It has been enshrined in official policy since the adoption of the legal opinion published last year.

      The policy is used to deny Scots their share of the assets of the UK. It is also there to ensure England’s continued presence as a permanent member of the Security Council, and the continuity of the various and sundry EU opt-outs.

      Part IV of that legal opinion asserts Scotland was “extinguished” when it was incorporated into England in 1707, that England continued on, and that the titles “UK” and “England” are synonymous, describing the same continuing unitary state.

      That is to say, Scotland has not existed in 307 years, and that there is then, no such thing as a Scotsman – we are all English men and women in an indivisible unitary English state.

      Legally it’s bull of course, but the problem is it is not being effectively challenged, and it is being used to commit an act of grand larceny upon the the Scottish people. I offer a fuller account here if you feel the need to be annoyed and fair affronted http://bellacaledonia.org.uk/2014/02/25/the-fiction-of-the-continuing-state/

      • frank

        Now, that’s a concern. Then if the Union is kept intact, it must be renegotiated/properly interpreted to reflect its original intention plus its modern realities based on an equal partnership of states! In that way a no vote could still be a positive result for Scottish nationalism. If it is not on anyone’s agenda, we must put it there!

        Believe me, although I live in England, I am NOT English. I am an embodiment of the Union (Scottish, English, Welsh) with deep an abiding pride in and identification with each. Britain is one land, but must not be dominated by any of its members. United we stand – hand in hand, not in glove.

      • Fergus Pickering

        Britain is mostly England. Well of course it is.

  • treeblopez

    We might be the same people but we don’t vote the same. Scotland votes Labour. England votes Tory.

    • nae a belger

      To be strictly accurate – Central Scotland votes Labour, SE England votes Tory.
      Whilst I back secession the notion that Scotland has no Tories or that you can weigh the Labour vote in Moray or Aberdeenshire etc has no merit.
      Also the idea that SNP support in the heartlands is primarily “socialistic” in nature is false.
      Most of the SNP heartland support is of the fundamentalist nature.
      Scotland is not, and never has been, solely a Labour nation.

    • Andy Donaldson

      If “Scotland votes Labour” how do you explain the fact that they’ve been second to the SNP for 8 years and two elections, with one of those a landslide and an overall majority?

      The West of Scotland votes Labour.

    • W David Rodger

      Let’s simplify and say that Scotland does not vote Tory. (Their share of the vote is at max, 15%) Only ONE Tory MP. The two pandas in Edinburgh Zoo are thinking of forming their own political party, because they have better representation in Scotland!

      • Fergus Pickering

        I’ve heard that joke before.

        • Kitty MLB

          So have I Fergus, you’d think they would find some new stuff,
          but I understand recycling is important in Scotland- Ask Nicola.

          • Fergus Pickering

            They certainly recycle their grievances. The trouble is English people are quite ignorant of what they are.

      • <–Ed balls dressed as a Nazi

        So what? you can argue the same point from any constituency in England where they voted for a Labour MP.

  • Tony Collins

    This is a rehash of an old David Torrance argument that even he appears to have stopped deploying. You simply cannot negate the reality of our voting patterns in Scotland with the results of some limited polls on leading questions. The Tory/UKIP right wing dominates Westminster while in Scotland they are a laughing stock. It makes perfect sense our constitutional set-up should reflect this. Besides all that, Scots nationalists are more than happy to share a common language and a large degree of a common culture with our friends in England just as much as we do with our equally close friends and relatives in Ireland, Canada, USA, Isle of Man, new Zealand and so on. Improving our democracy has nothing to do with social or ethnic division, the British Nationalists are ‘at it’ on this one and desperately need to come up with something a bit more coherent!

    • Colonel Blitherington

      Anyone can be British, so less of ‘British nationalism’ please, it don’t exist.

      • http://weourselves.com/ Christian Wright

        So all those Union Flags awaving during London’s Olympic pageant, those were not displays of British nationalism? The choreographed celebration of Britain’s industrial revolution was not an artifac of British national pride?

        All the Land of Hope and Glory tosh, and the Jubilee bunting, and the Falklands War, are not displays of British nationalism?

        The punching-above-our-weight bull, and the £100 billion Trident useful-to-neither-man-nor-beast conceit, that’s not driven by British nationalism?

        Seriously?

        • dougthedug

          Remember, there is no such thing as British nationalism. According to the British nationalists.

      • Tony Collins

        Please do elaborate on that one Colonel. I’ve tried understanding but I have no idea what you’re talking about

      • Kitty MLB

        I much prefer the word English instead of
        ‘British’ and yes anyone can call themselves
        that ghastly BBC &Leftie loving word
        British. Yet to be English is completely
        different, its to do with, history, culture,
        shared values etc..

        • Fergus Pickering

          So true, Kitty. England, our England!

  • Spammo Twatbury

    “Chris Deerin is a columnist for the Scottish Daily Mail.”

    No shit, Sherlock.

  • M4rkyboy

    The only reason this laddie got his gig with the DM was because the cybernats gave him a doing over some other equally fantastic,rambling loadae p**h he sneezed onto his keyboard one night.
    Useful idiot?hmm
    It might have been a Guardian article,cant remember.

    • Billy Bunter

      The problem is that cybernatz come across as cybertwatz, but you are apparently proud to be one…

      • Michele Keighley

        It is their usual response to anything they disagree with. Personally, I would be glad to see them have the courage of their convictions – and I resolutely refuse to try to persuade them otherwise. Leave them to their delusions of utopia, you never know they just might go for in September and then the English can possibly get a look in with the buffoons in Westminster! If the Topries want to reclaim their members from the UKIP they had better do something soon.

  • ItsAGoinWrang

    The idea that the press in Scotland are supporting the ‘yes’ campaign is so laughable that anyone understanding what’s really happening will ignore the rest of this article. And, what’s wrong with attempting to use what little controls we have at Holyrood to right the wrongs foisted on us by Westminster. Anyone would think this magazine was an offshoot of the Daily Telegraph! Oh wait… ah!

    • dougthedug

      “Supporting the ‘yes’ campaign”, means the occasional neutral article amongst all the Better Together press releases.

  • Colonel Blitherington

    When Scotland elects its representatives they use proportional representation, the English are considered too untrustworthy to be allowed proportional representation.

    • Kitty MLB

      Well Colonel, Sir.
      When Mr Salmond has created his Utopia, the land of milk and honey.
      as we are told , maybe our little guests will move up to Scotland.
      Also, I maybe wrong, but do our charming Scottish MP’s not vote on issues
      that actually affect our green and pleasant land, as, England.

  • Andy Donaldson

    The problem the No campaign has is that they genuinely don’t understand why so many people want Scotland to leave the UK, so their counter-arguments are all overt the place and they seem scared to raise each point in case it turns out to be counterproductive. And it’s as true for Alastair Darling as it is for David Cameron, albeit far more understandable in Cameron’s case.

    In the same way, the above article shows a genuine lack of understanding of the reasons behind the desire for independence, as well as the usual dismissive contempt for those who subscribe to it.

    • RolftheGanger

      The Nos are inside the metrocentric goldfish bowl/bubble looking out at Scotland (normally only rarely) and we are on the outside looking at life and having to look at the goldfish bowl pretty regularly. Thanks to the BBBC. So we see all the faults and failings of their limited mentality and focus. They cannot see it at all.

  • scotcanadien

    What a load of absolute bollocks.

    “The strategy, (the SNP’s) while morally reprehensible, has been quite effective. An
    ever-growing range of services, such as prescriptions and university
    tuition, have been made ‘free’. Council tax has been frozen.”

    How can an elected Government’s policies to better the life of its people be called “morally reprehensible”? FFS it’s what it was elected to DO! Deerin is a typical London based pseudo Scot who’s life plans and ambitions are wrapped into London and he doesn’t want to see those plans disrupted. He’s like the Labour troughers at Westminster…wants to retain his job, status and money and let the improvement in Scots life and culture from Independence go fuck itself.

  • Colonel Blitherington

    England has an out of control population explosion, why should Scotland pay disproportionately the finance required for infrastructure because of Westminster’s stupidity?

    • Raw England

      Why do your Scottish ministers keep voting for more immigration and multiculturalism?

      Also, we English don’t want to pay and suffer for the horrific failures that are immigration and multiculturalism.

      • Andrew Saint

        So why do people in England continue to vote overwhelmingly for the Con/Lab/LibDem establishment which has actively encouraged mass immigration for over 20 years (even Thatcher failed to stop England being “swamped, as she put it)?

        • transponder

          Because the classical liberals of England were deserted by the Tories, and UKIP is a fairly recent (and still doubted) phenomenon. You can only vote for a party that exists!

          • Kitty MLB

            And UKIP most certainly does exist now, the other
            parties are having kittens for that very reason.They
            will never do that for the Monster Raving Looney party.
            But I suppose you only have the choice of two in Uncle Sam,
            dear S.

        • Kitty MLB

          People still vote for the main 3 parties
          ( well the Lib Dums are history) because
          they have been untill now the only
          legitimate partys and UKIP until
          now has never had a voice.They
          are filling a void, and frankly our
          Relationship with the EU and the
          Excessive immigration that
          we have no control over now
          gives UKIP that voice.
          Hopefully they will take Labours
          voters from them and be my
          parties official opposition.
          After all Labour and The Lib Dums
          are the anti-English parties.

  • Andy Donaldson

    “There is, in fact, almost no difference between the views of the average Scotland the average English person”

    If Scottish and English people are basically the same, why don’t they view themselves as being the same? I think the very fact articles like this are being written tells you all you need to know about how similar we are.

    Apparently Scots have “a political culture that, since devolution, has become inward-looking and self-obsessed to an unsettling degree”. So, we’re different then.

    • DGStuart

      No, the political classes are different, or many at least want to project a difference to appeal to gullible types who want to think they are ‘special’. This is so they can create their own hegemony with the attendant career progression on the world stage.

  • ItchycooMark

    ” the partition of India” you forgot to mention the real comparison there which was India gaining its independence from Britain

    free prescriptions and free eye tests are really “morally reprehensible”

    What a load of nonsense !

  • Colonel Blitherington

    After Scotland save themselves England will break up into several distinct areas.

  • Alistair Gray

    This is a UK-wide political crisis. It is not a Scottish question, or a nationalist question, and it has nothing to do with differences between Scots and English.

    Westminster is widely reviled, not just in Scotland but throughout the UK. So long as Westminster continues to promote a brutal and uncivilised politics devoted to asset-stripping the public sphere and lining the pockets of corporate interests, and so long as the electorate, including the Scottish electorate, continues to despise Westminster, the Union will be in crisis.

    This crisis looks like a Scottish issue only because Scots have an option of repatriating power from Westminster which is unavailable to the English. But it is Westminster which needs attention, not Holyrood. Introduce PR. Create a written constitution. Establish genuinely local councils with real political and fiscal power. Stand up to the utterly corrupt City of London. Propose this kind of reform, and people in Scotland will stop and listen.

    In the absence of UK political institutions which command loyalty and respect, the Union is indefensible and cannot survive.

  • Raw England

    Wrong.

    The English people and Scottish people want VERY different things. In fact, the Scottish people want everything we English DON’T want.

    Example: Scots want immigration, multiculturalism and the removal of Trident. Whilst we English want a total end to immigration, a total end to multiculturalism and for Trident to be fully kept.

    • DGStuart

      Don’t believe the propaganda from the Scottish political classes – the Scottish public’s views on those issues are not significantly different from the rest of Britain. Any difference is merely the amplification from politicians, media and pressure groups.

  • zabazoom

    What the former empire doesn’t want to accept is that eventually everyone kicks the English to the curb.

  • Andy Donaldson

    I do love the idea that the SNP’s strategy of improving things for Scotland first and foremost is somehow underhand and “morally reprehensible”. In what way is it morally reprehensible to succeed at improving the lot of your electorate?

    It reminds me of George Foulkes’ famous outburst in which he said “The SNP are on a very dangerous tack. What they are doing is trying to build up a situation in Scotland where the services are manifestly better than south of the border in a number of areas.”

    I think what he’s trying to say is “the SNP are demonstrably better at governing Scotland than we were, and our resentment of this is far more powerful than our consideration for the people of Scotland”.

  • http://weourselves.com/ Christian Wright

    Chris Deerin: “60 per cent of Scots want Britain either to leave the EU or at least to reduce its powers — up from 40 per cent ten years ago. So much for the myth of Scottish Europhilia.”

    Aye, right.

    Polling demonstrates a clear and unambiguous divergence between the people of Scotland and England on the thorny issue of membership of the EU.

    “53% of Scots would vote for the UK to remain part of the EU, with 34% opposed and 61% think an independent Scotland should be an EU member.

    In a similar poll in November, 50% of people in England said they would vote to leave the EU compared with 42% wanting to remain.”

    http://www.ipsos-mori.com/Assets/Docs/Polls/scotland-attitudes-towards-EU-membership-2013-tables.pdf

  • W David Rodger

    “Britain’s northern quarter”? No, we are bigger than that, try Britain’s northern third, Chris. You know, where the majority of the EU’s renewable wind and wave resources are, as well as 92% of the UK’s oil. Learn from Father Ted, he is better at geography than BBC weather maps: “small, far away”. And as for “shared phrases and idioms and slang”, oh how we Jocks laugh at “sweaty socks” and “subsidy junkies” and “a pound spent in Croydon is of far more value to the country than a pound spent in Strathclyde”.

  • allymax bruce

    ” An ever-growing range of services, … prescriptions and university
    tuition, have been made ‘free’. Council tax has been frozen.
    Private-sector involvement in public services is denounced as the agenda
    of the profit-driven south. Education and welfare reforms are used as a
    stick with which to beat Westminster. ”

    Chris, you unduly make the point for Scottish Independence; take for instance your example of ‘Private-sector involvement in public services is denounced as the agenda
    of the profit-driven south’, you mean the Third Sector; as we say in Scotland, thir r’s is oot th windee. The Third Sector is in for a big ‘rammin’ ! I’m a volunteer of a ‘Charity’ company, that has been given a tendered contract, to ‘facilitate’ a Reference group for the Homeless; and, basically, the Local Authority has given the Third sector ‘Charity’ (!), free reign to make their own rules, and choose their own people, who they want to be in the Reference Group! I mean, being homeless, and having a positive perspective towards working for the rights and advantages of making the Homelessness Commissioning Plan for Homelessness, is not enough! Apparently, you’ve got to be a Trade-Union member, vote Labour, and walk about wi yer trooser-leg rolled-up! WTF CEC!

    • Billy Bunter

      Why are you using the Queen’s personal emblem as your own?

      • Kitty MLB

        If dear Ally will excuse me for saying( he will explain it better) Its
        the royal standard of Scotland, a very ancient and noble flag,
        the lion was historically used by kings of Scotland.
        And as you have pointed out, its used by Royalty when in Scotland,
        Her majesty is the Queen of Scotland as well you..

      • allymax bruce

        Ahh, Billy, you make me smile. Good Morning tae ye fella.
        The ‘Queen’s personal emblem’, is actually the dedicated emblem that Bruce fought under at Bannockburn, and won. It was always going to be so, because, ‘the emblem’, represents Jesus’ return; the image actually goes back to at least the 7th century; and has the Imposition of Jesus’ return accredited to it. I can dig-out the book where it is shown, if you want. As such, as a good Christian, in good faith, I’ve every Right to use Jesus’ return emblem; and I’m really glad our Queen of Scots does too. But thanks for your comment, Billy; I like a wee bit o’ fun.

        • Fergus Pickering

          What emblem did the Scots fight under at Flodden?

          • allymax bruce

            Mark 13:22

          • Fergus Pickering

            Is that a reference to wee Eck?

          • allymax bruce

            Hi Fergus. You obviously don’t know your bible. Those that led the Flodden Scots, received no ‘witness’; no ‘confirmation’. (Mark 3:24).
            You’re not doing too well here, Fergus; are you.

          • Fergus Pickering

            King James IV led the Flodden Scots, a better man than Bruce by far. What have you got against him?

          • allymax bruce

            I’ve nothing against anyone; Fergus. I’m against political ideology that lies to the masses, impoverishes the masses, and subjugates the masses; all when ‘purporting’ to ‘represent’ the masses. Anyway, if James IV was better than Bruce, how come James got beat, and lost his life? Like I said, a Kingdom divided is no Kingdom at all. Besides, he never got a ‘witness’; the Frogs didnae turn up!
            *If I’ve got tae correct you one more time, Fergus, I will use my winners Claim to put you up on my mantlepiece.

          • Fergus Pickering

            Ah, if you claim that winning is what matters then I reckon the English are about six-one up. Bruce was a murderer. And French of course.

          • allymax bruce

            Fergus, you’re being ridiculous; if you can’t win your wars, then you’re not going to be king. I’m surprised you’re so stupid; is that what a Private Scottish education makes of a person?
            As for Bruce being a murderer, technically Yes, but so is every king/queen/Nation-State that execute their traitors. That being so, English kings Edward 1 & 2 were murderers, rapists and paedophiles.
            Like I said, you’re not very good at this; are you, Fergus?

          • Fergus Pickering

            Bruce murdered Comyn in a church. Oh and Royal High School of Edinburgh, since you ask. And I didn’t pay a penny.

          • allymax bruce

            Yes, so what? It was the only place the two-faced lying, cheating scumbag Comyn thought he could manipulate a Knights Honour; Bruce was Honourable; and Comyn thought he could manipulate a Knights Honour, while deceiving Bruce’s Knights Honour. Comyn got what he deserved! Traitors gave Wallace away, so Bruce wasn’t taking any chances with Scotland’s Rights. I see nothing wrong in that; in-deed, Jesus flouted all the ‘Temple laws’; are you saying Jesus was wrong too? Fergus, don’t reply to me anymore; you’re a pathetic idiot.

            “Oh and Royal High School of Edinburgh, since you ask. And I didn’t pay a penny.”
            Yeh, and you think you’re clever? You got what you deserved; you imbecile!

          • Kitty MLB

            Ally, do you not suppose all this is getting a
            little out of hand and heated and no one knows
            the utter truth about what happened so long ago.
            You are usually so well mannered, Fergus
            is not ever a pathetic idiot or a imbecile.
            And you never usually insult..

  • kininvie

    “… every lever at its disposal to emphasise the difference between
    Scotland and England — real or imagined. The strategy, while morally
    reprehensible, has been quite effective…”

    What is ‘morally reprehensible’ about free prescriptions or not charging student fees? If not these, what else is ‘morally reprehensible?’ Maybe it’s just that it’s morally reprehensible to do things differently from Westminster? In which case maybe you need to consider what you understand by morality.

  • Jackthesmilingblack

    It`s “dialects”, check your dictionary Mr. Professional Journalist.

    • Alex

      The article is tripe down to it’s core.

  • em diar

    If only those pesky Romans had got their act together and soldiered on through those last few miles instead of building a wall, effectively inventing Scotland, it would have saved us all this bother, and this country of ours would have its boarders defined by geography and a coastline, rather than by an artificial line drawn in the sand. Scotland and England are nations defined only by the Roman’s failure to see a job through to the end.

    • http://atheismexposed.tripod.com/ True Freethinker

      You don’t know much about history do you? Under the Romans everyone here was Welsh. The English were still in Germany and the Scots were still in Ireland. Scotland and England came into existence from completely opposite directions after the Romans had left!

      I think we should be European as that would make us a continent defined by geography not ‘artificial’ borders just because the Romans couldn’t conquer Germany and Northern Europe!

      • em diar

        You don’t know much about rhetoric, do you? Do you really think I was implying what you seem to be accusing me of thinking? Are you so literal minded and pedantic? Obviously I am quite aware that the states and peoples of England and Scotland as we know them today were centuries away, and that the Angles, Saxons, Jutes, Vikings, Normans etc etc had yet to shape and reshape the political and cultural landscape of the British Isles?

        The historical significance of the Roman division of Britain (Hadrian’s wall) is that as the rest of the kingdoms within it merged, they eventually settled into two separate groups, North and south of a border which did not exist before Hadrian. Wales’ separate identity to England is an entirely different story.

      • Fergus Pickering

        How is Europe defined by geography. The eastern borders are purely notional. The western border is the sea. And we are not in it.

    • Fergus Pickering

      Well, they did. There are two walls, one considerably to the north of the other. The lowlanders and the Highlanders are traditional enemies. The lowlanders detested Bonnie Prince Charlie. They were staunch Hanoverians.

  • john

    England beyond the M25 is the same as the Scots. It’s the London mafia who are different.

  • http://atheismexposed.tripod.com/ True Freethinker

    United by a common language? Really?

    What language are the placenames Glasgow, Dundee, Crianlarich, Machrahanish, or in Wales Cardiff, Caernarfon, Llanelli, Aberystwyth, derived from? It surely
    isn’t English!

    Similarly for family names such as Llewellyn, MacDonald and even Cameron. Far more foreign to the English than names like Jonsson or Schmidt.

    The Czechs and the Slovaks are far more closely related than the Scots and the English. The English and the Germans are the same people with closely related languages, so lets all be European right?

    Out of all the Unionist drivel I’ve read, this has to be the most ridiculous.

    • HJ777

      The Czechs and the Slovaks speak different (albeit related) languages.

      Since when did the Scots speak a different language from the English?

      Historically, lowland and central belt Scots have felt culturally closer to England than they have to Highland Scots. Much of the Scottish upper classes have alway had accents that sound more English than Scottish even.

      • http://atheismexposed.tripod.com/ True Freethinker

        “Since when did the Scots speak a different language from the English?”

        Amazing, just astounding ignorance! We still do!!! Two of them for the price of one! Tha mi ag ionnsachadh Gàidhlig. A bheil thu a’ tuigsinn dè tha e gu bheil mi a’ bruidhinn?

        Czech and Slovak are as close to each other as English and Lowland Scots. So even by Lowland Scots, you and the article are wrong. That is leaving aside Scottish Gaelic (a completely different language more closely related to French) which was (and still is!) spoken in the Lowlands as well as throughout the Highlands.

        • HJ777

          Your ignorance is, indeed, astounding.

          Lowland Scots is usually regarded as a dialect of English and hardly anyone speaks Gaelic day-to-day.

          Nearly all Scots speak English nearly all the time.

          • http://atheismexposed.tripod.com/ True Freethinker

            Gaelic still exists and many more Scots know a phrase or two. Nearly all of Scotland spoke it at one point and the placename evidence is still there.

            Lowland Scots is usually classified by linguists as a language but downgraded by the British government and Unionists like yourself for obvious political reasons.

            Nearly all Dutch and Scandinavians speak English and English is the language of international business and the main language of the UN so we’re all European and global now, not to mention USA, Canada, Australia and New Zealand, all English speaking and therefore all the same country!

          • HJ777

            I neither said nor implied that Gaelic didn’t still exist. I merely pointed out that only just over 1% of Scots have any working knowledge.

            Lowland Scots is not even classified by most speakers as a separate language – and whether you think it is or not, it is derived from English and largely intelligible to English speakers.

            The Dutch and Scandinavians may all be able to speak English, but day-to-day, they do not. They all have their own languages that they speak to each other.

            Nowhere did I either say or imply that speaking the same language means that they are all the same country and neither did the article. Having lost the argument you are now resorting to making things up.

          • http://atheismexposed.tripod.com/ True Freethinker

            “Since when did the Scots speak a different language from the English?” – Your words. I pointed out that we had two languages of our own even if we don’t all speak them. As you admit, even if you were right on the language issue, it didn’t stop USA, Canada, Australia and New Zealand!

          • HJ777

            I said “since when did the speak them?” not “Since when did they exist?”

            You then claimed they still do – which is untrue since the vast majority do not.

            The USA, Canada, Australia etc. are geographically remote. The countries of the UK are not.

          • http://atheismexposed.tripod.com/ True Freethinker

            The vast majority of people in many countries speak English now. The point is that Gaelic and Lowland Scots exist giving Scotland a distinct culture.

            USA and Canada share the longest border in the world. They may be remote from England, but they’re not remote from each other. The same is true for all the Latin American countries that speak Spanish.

          • HJ777

            The article referred to a common language – you specifically rubbished that claim.

            Having been shown to be wrong, as you now tacitly admit, you try to present a different argument. The fact that the USA and Canada share a common border has no relevance to what this article is saying – they are both geographically remote from us.

          • The_greyhound

            What a lot of nonsense you do write.

            Most Scots don’t speak or write lowland Scots, or Middle Scots for that matter. They speak English with a regional accent – that is all.

            The Irish language “Gaelic” isn’t indigeneous to Scotland, and is characteristic of only a part of the country. There’s no reason to think it was ever spoken in the lowlands, where the native language is English, and has been for a millennium and a half.

            I’m always amused by how completely ignorant of Scotland’s history nationalists are – but then ignorance is the wellspring of nationalism.

          • http://atheismexposed.tripod.com/ True Freethinker

            According to you everyone in Scotland is just English. In fact, Gaelic is the most indigenous surviving language in Scotland. It is Celtic as was Pictish, its ancient rival. We have the historical records and placenames proving that Gaelic was spoken throughout the Lowlands. Lowland Scots developed around the time of William Wallace and Robert the Bruce due to the attempted English colonialism around 700 years ago, less than half the time you’re claiming for English. Actual English was encouraged in Scotland under James VI (the last Scottish king and the first one who didn’t speak Gaelic as his native language) and then imposed after 1707. When people describe something as sounding Scottish, they’re talking about Scottish Gaelic, not some regional accent of English.

            You are the nationalist here. A British nationalist. Something invented by the government in 1707. You are trying to rewrite history to suit your own delusions and ignorance.

        • Fergus Pickering

          Nobody speaks that stuff. Nobody.Where is it spoken in the Lowlands? Or in the Highlands for that matter. It was. It is not.

          • http://atheismexposed.tripod.com/ True Freethinker

            Your own name Fergus is Gaelic! Tens of thousands of Scots speak Gaelic everyday and hundreds of thousands know a few words and phrases like I do, even if I’m not fluent. The majority of Scots support maintaining Gaelic as part of our culture even if they can’t speak it themselves. After all, most our names and placenames are Gaelic in origin.

            The only reason that so few Scots actually speak Gaelic now is because of the actions of the British state in suppressing it and enforcing English on the population of Scotland. These are historical facts.

          • Fergus Pickering

            No they are not. You made them up.

    • HJ777

      It is generally reckoned – and is backed up by genetic evidence – that the commonly held view that the existing Celtic population of England was displaced by Saxon settlers is wrong. It is more likely that a process of acculturation took place.

  • http://atheismexposed.tripod.com/ True Freethinker

    Tha mi ag ionnsachadh Gàidhlig. A bheil thu a’ tuigsinn dè tha e gu bheil mi a’ bruidhinn?

  • Cogra Bro

    The drive for Scottish Independence is fuelled by one thing: The Scots detest, some even loath, the English.

    It’s not a question of shared values, like or dislikes as Chris Deerin seems to be saying, since he talks about little else. It fundamentally dislike, which is cultural but bound up with ethnic resentment. and jealousy..

    Yes we are talking ‘race hate’ here, as Cultural. Marxists describe it, but of course, no one will ever admit to that, least of all the lefty SNP.

    Why bother about a farewell to Scotland? Britain is being obliterated with mass immigration and the EU anyway .

    What held Scotland to the Union was principally its economic advantages which overrode differences in race, culture and religious outlook which were close enough for these advantages to do that.

    They are however large enough to cause division when those advantages are seen to disappear in the EU and when they are getting larger with multiculturalism and multiracialism. Why belong to a multiracial, multicultural Britain? What’s the point?

    If Scotland disappears over the horizon, taking its left-voting MPs with it, the political centre of gravity of the rump will shift decisively to the right. That will mean that there is a chance of England being saved for tis people from the hands of its political class.

    Freedom for Scotland – !!

    • http://atheismexposed.tripod.com/ True Freethinker

      The only hatred comes from the English who constantly use English and British interchangeably and then act shocked when reminded of the existence of the Scots, Irish and Welsh. They take this mere existence for ‘hatred’ when of course they are merely projecting their own hatred.

      • Cogra Bro

        It isn’t hatred on the part of the English. It’s unthinking assumptions of superiority and at best, condescending tolerance which get up the noses of the Scots.

      • serialluncher

        What a trivial thing to develop a hatred over. Practically the whole world makes that mistake. It’s not meant to be an expression of Welsh or Scottish irrelevance. Do you think our language should be called British to make sure?

        • http://atheismexposed.tripod.com/ True Freethinker

          Who’s hating who? I don’t hate anyone and I don’t judge people on their accident of birth. The Scottish education minister in the SNP is an Englishman who supports Scottish independence. He doesn’t hate anyone and no one hates him. He wants the best for both England and Scotland, that’s why he supports independence.

          No the language should certainly not be called British as that would be a complete lie. There is already a British language and we call it Welsh. The truth is that we should be proud to be English, Scottish or Welsh and work together as separate friends and allies instead of being forced into this British falsehood.

          • serialluncher

            British is our national identity – not Scottish, English etc. We are one people. There’s no hate from the English towards the Scots. If there were an acrimonious divorce however (ie. a given if there’s independence) things are likely to change drastically.

          • http://atheismexposed.tripod.com/ True Freethinker

            How nice of you to impose your British identity on the rest of us! So according to you, English people don’t exist! How racist and anti-English of you! Why stop there? Why not be European?! We are definitely not one people. We never were. No more than the people of Europe are one people. Britain is nothing more than a geographical land mass like Scandinavia. The UK is a union of separate nations like the EU or NATO. That’s according to UK law!

            The stench of your implied threat is a disgusting display of hatred! We are in a marriage made acrimonious by your racist views. People like you carried out ethnic cleansing when Yugoslavia collapsed instead of allowing nature to take its course as the Czechs and Slovaks did.

          • serialluncher

            You are absolutely crackers or on a wind up mission. Good day.

      • Liz

        Afraid not. I grew up as an English person in Scotland and the hatred is very real and very visceral. There was anti-English graffiti, the school taught a nationalist version of history, they claimed to speak Scottish not English. I and my English friend were once threatened by a gang of Scottish boys with getting our throats cut if we were seen in town again. I perfected a Scottish accent to blend in.

        • http://atheismexposed.tripod.com/ True Freethinker

          As a child, my family moved to England for work reasons. I was threatened and bullied at school for having a Scottish accent! I had to perfect an English accent to fit in! So it works both ways.

          You believe a British Nationalist version of history in which we’re all Brits together. Such a version is a lie. I’ll bet that your school taught an accurate history and you just label it nationalist because it doesn’t fit in with your English/British nationalism.

          Whilst I condemn any hatred or violence, the reason for anti-English feelings in Scotland is due to Britain/UK in which Scotland is ruled as a colony by England. The solution to such hatred is independence!

    • Raw England

      Beautiful comment.

  • DaveTheRave

    The English and Scottish are clearly not the same people, we simply happen to share the same island. Politically the English are largely conservative, yet laissez-faire, the Scottish tend towards socialism and are more politically radical. Scotland, even when 50% or more voted Tory in the 1950s, retained its own judicial and education system. English and Scottish traditions differ radically, so a formal separation might be the best thing. What IS puzzling is why Scotland would glory in its freedom from England’s ‘yoke’, only to willingly shackle itself to the EU.

    • Fergus Pickering

      The Scottish Education system has gone down the toilet since then, hasn’t it?

      • DaveTheRave

        Probably, but probably not as far as in England.

    • Alex

      It’s one step at a time. Like the rest of the UK, Scots agree the EU has over-stepped it’s remit but still see the value in many of the laws and regulations which allow us to do business with each other. The EU is still seen as more of a relationship of equals where as the UK is unbalanced.

  • DavEd CamerBand

    Salmond is a Europhile, does anyone recall what happen after Ireland fought so hard for independence? They handed it all over to the EU, now they are financially ruined.

    • DaveTheRave

      Absolutely spot on.

  • Fergus Pickering

    I can do a really good Edinburgh accent. You just can’t see the join. I can do posh Oxford too. And my native North London. Is there no end to my talents?

  • DaveTheRave

    My passport may say I’m a British citizen, but I am not. I am an Englishman, though in effect I have no country. At the most basic level we are all human first, but we all need a home. For the time being my home is England, not Britain. I CHOOSE to call myself an Englishman because at present I am allowed to do so.

  • Call me Dave.

    I for one am pro-independence as an Englishman, but the Scots will be pulled further into the EU.

    Of the 20 British PMs 8 were born in Scotland. The greatest beneficiary of Scottish succession will be the English Tories. The conservative and unionist party which is; self-evidently, committed to the continuation of the Union. BUT which would, by supporting the union’s rapture gain a massive political advantage. “Call me Dave” has a choice respect the heritage of his party, or be a radical PM with a ruthless grasp of realpolitik. it is the Scottish people who will suffers as a result of political curbs; of tearing a sucking nation from its teat. How long until the oil runs out?
    This article is very strange article, Scotland is many things, but not English.
    Scotland is a foreign country. linguistic idioms, architecture, urbanism are alien and beguiling. It is foreign because of its very familiarity.

    Economy: From our former names of Alba, Alban to Albania, we have always been divided. Scotland hate the Tories as we can see from another article on here, this is because she closed down their mining industry, although it was economically exhausted, it was socially cohesive. Tens of thousands were rationalised into voluntary idleness, their unemployment benefit could arguably cost more.

    Drug use: Scotland has western-Europe’s highest proportion of population of Heroin users, 50,000 people. Still only 1%; which makes one wonder on the willpower of the remaining 99%; how do they get by. Heroin in Scotland is incidentally the cheapest in Western-Europe
    Diet: The Scottish diet is notoriously reliant on; white sugar and white flour. it constitutes an anti-gastronomic, anti-sybaritic, anti-hygienic assault on the body; an assault which is undertaken with proletcultish pride and inadvertent snobbery; the twin poles of impressive obesity and hatchet-faced cadaverousness are amply represented. You don’t need to go to Switzerland; Scottish chip shops provide an effective euthanasia service. Unsurprisingly coronary disease and lung cancer are so prevalent in Scotland that average life expectancy is the shortage in Western-Europe; 74 may still seem too many years for a man to endure if he is condemned to live in surroundings like that of Scotland.
    Scotland’s demographic complexion owes more to Europe than to England. Scotland enjoys an extremely high level of teenage pregnancy, “Duff” is after all a teenage name. 11% of Scotland’s inhabitants receive disability benefits; some of them are not all that disabled; for instance, a supposedly one-legged man who worked as a roofer.
    Crime: According to the UN (given its quaint array of biases, isn’t necessarily the most reliable of sources) you’re more likely to be assaulted in Scotland than in any other developed country; that’s something to write home about; unless of course your hands has been crushed in the assault. The murder rate is among the highest is Western-Europe; so too is the population of percentage in prison – 8,000. Scotland shares Brazil’s propensity to self-annihilation, violent crime deprivation and hardly unrelated a grotesquely inequitable division of wealth.
    Society: “If a thing is worth doing; it is worth doing badly” G.K Chesterton seems to be taken literally by Scotland; its utilitarian drabness. Imagination costs nothing. Scotland loves oppression and curtailment; “You’re going to live like your grandparents and you’re going to be grateful for it”. “This is your place” Grants primacy to the past, rather than to the future. fetishists roots rather than branches. An inhibition to social mobility which is conditional on actual mobility. People know their place.
    340 people own 58% of rural Scotland, and 52% of the highlands is owned by 90 people. The public purse provides most of the jobs, and they provide the government with votes- Quid pro quo.

    • Alex

      “11% of Scotland’s inhabitants receive disability benefits”. – Honestly 11% and I suppose you are paying for most of it out of your taxes.

      “Scotland loves oppression and curtailment.” – Really! do I. I never knew that but thank’s for telling me.

      “The public purse provides most of the jobs” Are you talking about the highlands or the whole country. Would be keen to see some evidence of some of these assertions.

      • <–Ed balls dressed as a Nazi

        I’m not paying for “most” of it, I’m paying for “some” of it. However, the rest of the UK’s contributions amount to a huge drain on our society.

        I don’t think you are “Scotland”.

        It provides much of the jobs, jobs for votes.

        • Alex

          It is the essence of bigotry to refer to any group (be it a country, region, sex or race) as an individual. ‘Scotland’ does not love anything Ed. We are a mixture of people just like everywhere else in the world and we have a variety of views, opinions and diets. Not much deep fried food in my house so sorry to burst your bubble.

          It’s also a myth that the public sector in Scotland is any bigger than the public sector in England or Wales.

          In short Ed, you are an uniformed bigot. Posting garbage under a newspaper article. Time to look at your life mate.

          • <–Ed balls dressed as a Nazi

            You clearly have learning difficulties. If you take a look around Scotland you will see the oppressive culture, the houses are drab and colourless. I gave you facts about your country, if you don’t like them – change it.

            The public sector in Scotland is huge, hence you voting Labour.

            I would never consider somebody so ill-informed as you to be a “mate”.

  • Bruno’s Beach

    The liberty school recognizes that there are certain basic functions, such as law enforcement, which government can perform effectively.

  • Nick

    Scots and English are the same people, with different accents. Why pretend otherwise?……….Absolutely true.

  • Jackthesmilingblack

    “A dialect describes both a person’s accent and the grammatical features of the way that person talks.”
    Although some argue that it`s Scottish dialect while French accent.

    Always willing to help out the less fortunate.

  • JaitcH

    In many cases Scots are incomprehensible by the English given their heavy accent. There are wide cultural differences, too, such as polaying music onanimal stomachs and wearing skirts on cold days.

    They do make good whisky, though.

  • Gadsden Purchase

    No matter how talented we may be, the worth of our skills in a free country depends upon our ability to make our talents known to those who can best use them.

  • Payton Manning

    Since it is hard to see how instinct restraint enables civilization, the morals that restrain our primitive instincts tend to be despised.

  • Myke Hall

    Aren’t all people fundamentally the same? Scots and English are not the same because we are all on the same island, we’re the same because we’re human beings, and we share that with the rest of the world.

    This vote is about politics, and the 2010 UK general election results show that Scotland and England don’t have the same politics.

  • ArmyAviator

    If the Scots do vote to leave the UK, then opt for the smart thing, and kick-out the MUSLIMS, I might put the “Mac” back on my family name and go “home” to Scotland! Scotland for Scots!

  • Source of all Truth

    Scots and English are totally different people you moron. Scots are Celts and English are Angles. That’s like saying Russians and Latvians are the same people. Or like Mexicans and Peruvians. Get an education and stop talking like a moron.

  • Shiprex

    Please, like most of you neoliberals stop referring to the problematic BRITISH as English. They are not, the English are like the Scots but the Ruling race of Britons are holding all our nations back

  • Ruaridh MacFergus

    You’re right, Indonesian and Uruguayan people are the same with different accents.

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