Features

Save our children from the Islamists

The Birmingham schools row is the logical outcome of years of weak policy and political correctness

14 June 2014

8:00 AM

14 June 2014

8:00 AM

Who’s up, who’s down? Who’s in, who’s out? While Westminster spent last week gossiping about which minister’s special adviser said what, in another city, not far away, a very different Britain was unveiled.

On Monday, the Chief Inspector of Schools, Sir Michael Wilshaw, published his damning investigation into the ‘Trojan Horse’ affair. Ever since allegations about an organised Islamist plot to take over Birmingham state schools emerged this year, they have been the subject of furious claims and counter-claims. The original document (a ‘widely accepted forgery’ as the BBC keeps calling it) seems most likely to have been written by a disgruntled Muslim teacher. Nearly every Muslim group and ‘spokes-person’ in the UK has spent recent months crying ‘witch-hunt’ and ‘Islamophobia’. Yet, whatever their origins, the claims now turn out to be mirrored by the facts.

The report found that Islamists had used ‘fear and intimidation’ to infiltrate school governing bodies in order to impose a ‘narrow faith-based ideology’. Children as young as six had been taught that western women are ‘white prostitutes’. Non-Muslim pupils were excluded from certain activities, including a trip to Saudi Arabia. There are accounts of anti-Christian chants being encouraged in morning assemblies. In one primary school, music was banned, along with raffles, tombolas and other ‘un-Islamic’ activities.

Further reports will be published, including one from former Met counter-terrorism chief Peter Clarke, which is expected to be even more damning. For his part, Sir Michael’s report concluded that ‘the active promotion of a narrow set of values and beliefs in some of the schools is making children vulnerable to segregation and emotional dislocation from wider society’. Indeed. A generation is at risk. But it is not just the Islamists, but this country, which is letting it happen.

Since the moment protests erupted over Salman Rushdie’s Satanic Verses, Britain’s authorities have been caught off guard. It was a Conservative home secretary (Michael Howard) who disastrously encouraged British Muslims to organise as a community rather than as citizens, believing it best if government had a ‘go-to’ group for the Muslims in Britain. The result was to embed community differences and encourage radicals to believe their horizon was closer than it ever should have seemed.

Under the Conservative and then Labour governments, radical preachers toured Britain trying to rally and isolate Muslim youth. They said that to be a Muslim you had to sympathise with your Muslim ‘brothers’ anywhere in the world. What you should not do was to feel any of that gratitude or desire to assimilate which had existed in their parents’ generation.

Everywhere, this madness was allowed to spread. Religiously segregated areas were accepted, separate values were allowed to thrive and, eventually, even separate rules of law tolerated and encouraged. All the time, we pretended to ourselves that this was simply ‘diversity’. I remember one Muslim woman in particular, who I interviewed in Birmingham some years ago. Born and bred in the area, she had been horribly mistreated by her local sharia court. ‘All my life,’ she told me, ‘I have been told what my rights are as a Muslim woman. No one ever told me what my rights are as a British woman.’

Amid this tolerance of anything and everything, the first major attacks on the West — 9/11, the 2004 Madrid train bombings, 7/7 — were a jolt. But if government was concerned by the acts of violence themselves, it was confused and reticent over what lay behind it. Clever counter-terrorism strategies like ‘Prevent’ were developed. But they had almost wholesale push-back from the ‘Muslim leadership’ and some funds ended up promoting the very ideologies they were meant to counter. What few people spotted was an opening that many Islamists were themselves perfectly frank about — an ambition to control the minds of the next generation of British Muslims.

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Of course, there were examples of what could go wrong. In 2007, a disgruntled Muslim teacher blew the whistle on the privately run King Fahad Academy in Acton, West London, alerting us to the fact that extreme textbooks in Arabic were being used at the school. The materials (from the Saudi ministry of education, incidentally) called Jews and Christians ‘apes and pigs’ and included test questions such as ‘Give examples of worthless religions such as Judaism, Christianity, idol-worship and others’. An Ofsted report a year earlier had declared the school’s teaching of Islam to be ‘mostly good’.

If such views and teachings came as a surprise to politicians and public alike, then they should not have done. Islamist groups had been completely open about their ambition. In a September 2003 piece (‘Education Dilemma’) in their Khilafah magazine, the global Islamist group Hizb ut-Tahrir (which is banned in many countries) railed against UK schools, including Muslim schools, for being too compromising and secular.

They criticised the older generation of British Muslims for doing ‘little to challenge what the indigenous population held as norms and values’ and complained that ‘in a society dominated by capitalist values and ideas, curriculum education will inevitably be used to indoctrinate children with notions such as “freedom” and “democracy” ’. HT said that ‘parents must be careful to filter out any negative influences that children are exposed to from the wider society’ and proposed that ‘Muslims can try to establish Islamic schools that are not deficient’.

Just two years later, in their April 2005 manifesto, Hizb ut-Tahrir Britain boasted of helping existing Islamic schools to develop ‘appropriate’ curricula, and said they were supporting new schools being established across the country, adding, ‘We have set up bodies to aid Muslim governors of state schools, to be aware of their rights and to cater for Muslim children.’

After the London Tube and bus bombs were detonated, Prime Minister Tony Blair promised to ban HT. But not only was the group not banned, its members were allowed to set up schools in Slough and Haringey. Again the inspections failed. A 2005 Ofsted report for the Slough school said, ‘the school’s provision for the pupils’ spiritual, moral, social and cultural development is very good’. Two years later, the schools were receiving over £130,000 in government grants.

Challenged on this another two years later, the then education secretary Ed Balls furiously deflected attention from the reality. In November 2009, Balls told Newsnight, ‘The question is, were the schools promoting terrorism or extremism? We’ve sent in the Ofsted advisers, who said no. I have looked at the curriculum, the answer was no.’

Perhaps, like Ofsted, he didn’t know what to look for. The HT constitution and the curricula for the Slough and Haringey schools are identical. Pupils were to be taught ‘Sovereignty to Allah’ and ‘Authority to the Ummah’. Lessons for nine and ten-year-olds included lessons on the need to establish an Islamic state and ‘Jihad fi sabeelillah [fighting in the path of Allah] as a form of worship’. As the author of the school’s history curriculum had previously written in HT’s magazine that ‘the world will, insha’Allah, witness the death of the criminal capitalist nation of America and all other (infidel) states when the army of jihad is unleashed against them’, it seems safe to suggest we are not talking about ‘inner personal struggle’ here.

In 2007, one of Michael Howard’s creations, the Muslim Council of Britain (MCB) published a 72-page blueprint on how to Islamicise secular state schools. It called for schools to avoid teaching any art involving ‘three-dimensional imagery of humans’, and discourage any play ‘associated with celebrating aspects of other religions’. There was no particular complaint. One of the two authors of the MCB report, Tahir Alam, is now a central figure being investigated in the Trojan Horse plot.

Yet still the Birmingham case has shocked everyone. Perhaps it is because the schools in question are not private schools or Gove’s academies. These are state schools being subjected to clear Islamist takeover. Perhaps that is why Monday’s debate in the House of Commons was striking for its relative lack of partisan point-scoring. There can hardly be a person in Westminster who thinks Michael Gove either incompetent or especially soft on Islamic extremism. Perhaps politicians of both parties now realise what one Labour frontbencher admitted in private this week, that we are now ‘running up against the limits of multiculturalism in the state education system’.

That is an unpopular thing to say. The follow-on point is more unpopular still. Which is that the numbers matter. The 2011 census showed that almost a quarter of Birmingham’s population identified as Muslim. Several Birmingham constituencies, like other parts of England, either currently have, or soon will have, majority Muslim populations. The repercussions are obvious. What happens when a minority request becomes a majority request?

This is going to be a problem for children born into Muslim families first. They risk having the worst possible start in a life — being born in a country where they should have access to any and every opportunity, where instead their ‘own’ community will seek to cut them off from wider society. But it is a problem for all of us down the line.

Of course, there are technical solutions: improved inspections, no-notice inspections and more. But this is not just about ‘policing’, it is about a battle for hearts and minds. This week, Michael Gove stressed the importance of teaching ‘British values’ in schools. Many people will shudder at that. What does it mean? Until recently, we were a Protestant Christian country — now, Britishness is meant to be about being ‘tolerant’ and ‘diverse’. Do such vague and abstract ideas stand a chance against a determined and fixed ideology?

We must be willing to confront the challenge. In recent days, some pointless secularists have aimed the discussion in the wrong direction. They have tried to distract everyone by pretending that all faith schools are Trojan Horse schools in waiting — as though the way to deal with Islamic radicals is to close Church of England schools. It is a bad sign. If we are to present an appealing counter-narrative to that of the Islamists we will have to do better than this. We will have to delve into deeper and more serious terrain about what we, and this country, uniquely offer.

Many Muslims came to this country precisely to leave their religion’s medievalists behind. It would be a tragedy if we stood by while their children — British children to whom we have a duty of care — were indoctrinated by a reconstituted version of that medievalism here.

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Show comments
  • Ronayne Maher

    Sharp, logical, and informative article. This episode is deeply concerning, not least when one glances towards events over the last 24 hours in the Middle East.

    This barbarism is being taught in British schools, and naive liberals are carping about tolerance and diversity. There is nothing more intolerant than Islam, so even if we’re to name ‘tolerance’, rather flaccidly I must say, as one definable British value, Islam most certainly isn’t it!

    • Shazza

      Tolerance for islam is a one way street, their way.

    • Ostercy

      Odd how this article is being so vigorously defended by Islamophobes.

      • Shazza

        For the umpteenth time dhimmi, there is no such thing as ‘islamophobia’. It is a Muslim Brotherhood construct from the 90s to shut down any discussion or criticism regarding the RoP. It has been remarkably successful judging by reactions from dhimmis such as yourself.

        Oh yes, a phobia is an irrational fear of something.
        There is absolutely everything to fear from islam unless you are a straight, teetotal, misogynistic, prone to violence, polygamist, bullying male.

        • Ostercy

          You have illustrated my point very well.

          • The_Average_Joe_UK

            I dont think so. Shazza has illustrated her point, all you are doing is calling her a name.

          • Ostercy

            Keep digging 🙂

          • MrsDBliss

            Yes, you do.

          • Icebow

            This deathmask is clearly a troll. Let’s not feed it.

          • global city

            but your point wasn’t a serious one, was it? Oh.

          • Lancastrian_Oik

            No, he hasn’t. And you know that.

        • oasis69

          It’s what ostercy does – no argument, just questions within questions. Vapid statements and empty taunts are his/her stock-in-trade.

        • Kennybhoy

          Yup. It was designed to provide them with a specific prejudice all of their very own separate from more general racism and to mimic and deflect the accurate characterization of themselves as antisemitic and homophobic.

          Regarding your dating it to the 90s and the MB. Do you have a link to some research…?

          In my experience and research you are right about the decade but I am not so sure about the MB being the ultimate origin…

        • EamonX

          I guess there is no such thing as ‘racism.’ It was a Civil Rights Movment construct to shut down any discussion on eugenics.

          • Shazza

            What a nasty comment – you cheapen what was an honourable, noble, righteous movement with another movement, i.e., worldwide domination by a primitive, murderous cult totally committed to returning us to the 7th century.

            BTW, you are obviously a loony Leftie so you should be aware that it was that glorious organisation, THE FABIANS, that were into eugenics as were the Nazis (National SOCIALISTS) – you are obviously a product of Labour’s Marxist educayshun.

          • Mack

            Deliberate misspellings are neither utilitarian nor aesthetically pleasing. They hinder your argument, not advance it.

          • petecr

            Islam isn’t a race though is it, it’s an ideology. It’s not racist to disagree with an ideology.

            For example I don’t like fascism, so does that make me a racist ?

        • sebastian2

          The greatest islamophobes are mohammedans themselves. They detest each other with a vengeance, slaughter each other with inventive alacrity, demean and subordinate approximately half their own community (ie women) and live (if you can call it that) in fear and trembling of what awaits transgressors.

          The entire ideology is riven with apprehensions and mutual loathing.

      • Kitty MLB

        May I just say once more that a phobia is a irrational
        fear. There is nothing irrational about fearing a barbaric ideology which uses their God as a shroud
        to hide behind whilst some commit atrocities.
        To have such little respect for humanity that even
        children are at risk should always be feared.

        • Amgine

          Well a phobia can also be just an extreme aversion to something, whether irrational or not. So one can be phobic about absolutely anything. To be phobic of snakes might be considered rational.

          By the way, I think you mean shield, not shroud. Although there’s some poetic mileage in the idea of using shroud to mean shield.

      • itbeso

        That term is so yesterday.

        • global city

          As is the dumb-arsed twisted thinking that has driven Left wing anti western contrariness for decades. A variant of Fisking.

      • Trofim

        Using Islamophobia is acceptable just as long as it is acknowledged that many Muslims are Christianophobic, agnostiphobic, atheophobic, hinduphobic, secularophobic.

        • liam

          and sikhophobic, homophobic, probably misogynistic, anglophobic, occidental-o-phobic, judophobic, europhobic. In fact, the list is so long I can see why you didn’t attempt to make it comprehensive. If anyone knows a substantial number of Muslims who don’t conform to the majority of these 12 phobias, please raise your hands.

          • Damaris Tighe

            is there anything that does NOT offend the RoP?

          • sebastian2

            Good question. The answer? Ceaseless deference and abject flattery.

          • global city

            and Shia?Sunniphobic, depending on what side you happened to be born into.

      • Ronayne Maher

        Are you illiterate or blind? Can you not see the problem with Islam? (Not Muslims, as such, but the consequences of the doctrines?)

        • Ostercy

          Great comment. I’ve tweeted it.

          • Ronayne Maher

            Ah, you’re one of those. High horse with no knowledge.

      • MissDemeanor

        i’d rather be called ‘islamophobe’ by somebody like you, than appeaser, apologist and terrorist sympathiser by people with brains

        • Ostercy

          Has the latter ever happened?

        • Trofim

          Pointless arguing with a genetic socialist. Have a look at his background. Sheffield. Say no more. Such set-in-stone worldviews cannot be budged.

      • LiamNewcastle

        Yes more fool us for our irrational phobia of a totalitarian theocracy

      • Terry Field

        You mean people who properly identify the barbaric practices and evil social distortions it produces?
        Ys, absolutely.

      • UKSteve

        It was Andrew Cummins who described Islamophobia as “a word created by fascists, and used by cowards, to
        manipulate morons.”

        Perfect, I think.

      • justejudexultionis

        In moral terms, I’m very comfortable indeed with being described as an ‘Islamophobe’.

        • Kamil Hussain

          And in moral terms, im comfortable with being called a homophobe.

          • Sage Ham

            Oh, you will.. In time you will

      • Sage Ham

        I am proud to be an islamaphobe whatever that means. I have children so unlike the leftist degenerates I need to fight for them and they will not give me marks for being politically correct. Thanks Douglas Murray for just being

      • sebastian2

        You must be seeing things. No islamophobes here. Just a collection of perceptive bloggers who profoundly and sensibly take issue with a disagreeable ideology masquerading as an implausible religion.

    • Kitty MLB

      Indeed our own children have to go to school with
      other children whose parents might not think twice about
      sending these innocent children to oblivion just because
      of their intolerance, barbaric and medieval influences.

    • Kennybhoy

      “…and naive liberals are carping about tolerance and diversity.”

      I used to think that they were naive man. Their elevation of Islamophobia to top trump forced me to the the conclusion that their self-hatred, in the case of sic’ as Maister Parris amounting to an actual death wish, is only explicable in psychological or even psychiatric terms. I hesitate to write this because I am only too aware of the foul use made of this particular explanation by evil regimes during the C20th…but the facts speak for themselves…

      • global city

        The likes of Matthew Parris will make his way to the executioner profusely apologising for his and the west’s sins of simply existing.

    • Dutchnick

      I agree, good article and at last a chance to discus what is a major problem. The idea that we have to treat all faiths as one entity is a mistake. Doing business in Norway and Sweden over several years I can see the benefits of what is a secular nation firmly following a Calvinistic ethos, even as an athiest I admire their principles and societies. Hirshi Ali , the Ex Dutch Politician summed it up rather well saying the the greatest victims of Islam are the Muslims it is unfortunate that we also have to suffer.

      • Larry

        It is PC that has created this out of control situation fuelled by bullying by muslims one has to understand the different mentality to use manners which is basic british way please thankyou excuse me sorry
        to muslims this is weakness “womanly” who are 3rd class citizens most of these immigrants come from an alien culture no culture most didn’t know what a toilet is for Immigrants have been excepted in this country as guests given homes free health care money etc & all they do is take the proverbial P**s no government has ever mentioned ho much money leaves these shores to support families overseas again PC no civil employee or Govt. has the guts to stand up for the british people who after all put them into power to look after their interest now is the time for the British people to STAND UP & BE COUNTED VOTE UKIP !!!!!!!!!!!!

  • GraveDave

    And the Tories have never been politically correct or dare I say it ‘anti white.’ A few years ago the only big bee in The ‘excellent’ Michael Gove’s ‘ bonnet ‘ was a few BNP teachers (I think their sole count was two). He even wrote an article about ‘BNP extremism’ in schools for the Guardian .He’s only onto it now because he knows there’s no hope of a Muslim turnout for the impending election.

  • Kitty MLB

    Indeed save our children from the influence of those who follow a medieval and barbaric ideology.
    We spend far too much time concerning ourselves with not offending those from the middle east because as we know that can be fatal.
    Yet what about our children who are like little sponges being under such influence,
    when are we going to start putting our own first.
    My little niece came home from school last month, for her parents to find their daughter wearing a headscarf, apparently it was from a little school friend ( they
    swapped items as girls do)
    The teacher thought it was a excellent example of multiculturalism, but knowing what
    the headscarf really means, her parents were not impressed.
    And why a headscarf and not beads, it didn’t sit comfortably.

    • http://www.londonschoolofislamics.org.uk IftikharA

      Bilingual Muslims children have a right, as much as any
      other faith group, to be taught their culture, languages and faith alongside a
      mainstream curriculum. More faith schools will be opened under sweeping reforms
      of the education system in England. There is a dire need for the growth of state
      funded Muslim schools to meet the growing needs and demands of the Muslim
      parents and children. Now the time has come that parents and community should
      take over the running of their local schools. Parent-run schools will give the
      diversity, the choice and the competition that the wealthy have in the private
      sector. Parents can perform a better job than the Local Authority because
      parents have a genuine vested interest. The Local Authority simply cannot be
      trusted.

      Why should not religious taxpayers have a right to send
      their children to schools that accord with their beliefs? Is this not, after
      all, supposed to be a tolerant society? If people receive a religious education,
      they are not rendered incapable of thinking. That is a thoughtless idea of
      people who advocate ‘secularism’ –it may not be a religion, but it certainly
      believes it has a monopoly on truth. Today’s ‘secularists’ are extremists, who
      want to impose their views on the rest of society. Sir Michael says children (in
      the criticised Muslim) schools in Birmingham are not being encouraged to
      “develop tolerant attitudes towards other faiths”. What about state and church
      schools? Schools should be run by head teachers who are answerable to boards of
      governors who are elected by parents. The role of the state should be minimised
      – concerned only with acceptable standards of education being delivered and
      economic efficiency. Most problems in education and in society in general have
      been instigated by politicians who are the real scourge in modern society, not
      religion or faith schools.

      Muslim children in state schools feel isolated and
      confused about who they are. This can cause dissatisfaction and lead them into
      criminality, and the lack of a true understanding of Islam can ultimately make
      them more susceptible to the teachings of fundamentalists like Christians during
      the middle ages and Jews in recent times in Palestine. Fundamentalism is nothing
      to do with Islam and Muslim; you are either a Muslim or a non-Muslim. Muslim
      children suffer from identity crises because their parents teach them Islam and
      their schools teach them something else. There must be a positive co-relation
      between school and home, otherwise, children will suffer academically,
      spiritually , socially and emotionally. They are also unable to develop
      self-confidence and self-esteem.

      What gives OFSTED the right, or indeed any brits, to
      preach to minority groups about how they should live their lives. This is a
      cosmopolitan country, the Muslim community have the right to educate their
      children how they choose. What has being British got to do with your religious
      belief? In Britain there are Hindus Sikhs pagans Jewish Buddhists atheist
      Zoroastrians Rasta’s and many more should they all change there religious
      beliefs because they are British? Studying the Qur’an will certainly help
      towards these children becoming fully integrated citizens of the UK.

      Ofsted should be an advisory body – full of experts who
      are able to support and guide schools into a better service for our young
      people. Instead, figures are massaged, teachers bullied, children get a raw deal
      and all because there are ‘standards’ to be reached or else the brown stuff hits
      the fan. The standards seem to me to be all wrong; my children’s first school
      had a motto ‘learning with love and loving to learn’. From what I have seen in
      primary schools throughout my 20 years (I have just thrown in the towel) is a
      continual drive to get children to higher standards quicker than ever which
      tends to overlook the fact that they are children and need time to explore and
      assimilate their learning. Child-centred learning should be top of the agenda
      with Ofsted helping to achieve the goals. We get what we pay for and currently
      we have a system which berates rather than supports.

      • Blindsideflanker

        “Why should not religious taxpayers have a right to send
        their children to schools that accord with their beliefs? ”

        They can, what they can’t do is convert a secular state school into a religious school by the back door.

        • http://www.londonschoolofislamics.org.uk IftikharA

          There are hundreds of state and church schools where Muslim children are in majority. In my opinion, all such schools may be opted out as Muslim Academies. DFE and Gove should consider my proposal seriously, otherwise, standard of education of Muslim children would never improve. It is a waste of tax-payers money. All minority groups should have their own school for their own children to improve race relation, otherwise, British society will suffer.

          It is the time that those schools who are victim of Trojan Horse, should be opted out as Muslim Academies. There is no place for a non-Muslim child or a teacher in a Muslim school. This is nothing to do with segregation or integration. it is purely an educational issue.

          There are currently 6,844 state faith schools – a few more
          than in early 2010, before the coalition government came to office, when there were 6,832. Of these, 4,601 are Church of England, 1,986 Roman Catholic, 26 Methodist, 152 of other Christian faiths, 48 Jewish, 18 Muslim and eight Sikh;
          and 763 of these faith schools are academies or free schools.

          Lack of evidence about what happened at the ‘Trojan Horse’ school. Maybe some bad things happened but there
          is hardly evidence of Homophobia or fascism. If there was, then local authority oversight (like in non-academy schools) would probably have stopped it. This whole debate is designed to get Gove off the hook. Remind me again how many public schools are single-sex? Including the ones attended by our current cabinet, perhaps? All Cameron is trying to do is stop Islamists taking over schools & using the curriculum to brainwash kids impressionable minds with
          religious mumbo jumbo that bares little resemblance to reality, science & fact. Teaching unions seem unbothered by this creeping Islamisation of our schools.Today’s ‘British’ values are totally based on privateering and profiteering. When I hear Cameron spouting vapid platitudes about ‘British values’ I wonder does he mean his own superficial and election-rigging slogans, or his efforts to portray the tiny clique of fellow frat boys’ aspirations as somehow ‘British’? Whatever, nothing he has done has
          any resemblance to anything recognisable as ‘British’ values. Why have Gove and Cameron started to talk about how they want schools to teach British values? Because of the Ofsted investigation into schools in Birmingham. They mean “we have to make clear that the values that were being taught in those schools are not British values”. It would really be better if they said “values of modern
          Western liberal democracy” but I suppose they think that doesn’t make a very good sound bite.Ask those in Guantanamo Bay what they think of democracy and
          respect for the rule of law. All values are relative, and used to suit those in power.

          So much noise here about Muslim extremism in few schools in a British city and yet your government spends Billions of dollars supporting and nurturing Islamic extremism in Syria and Saudi Arabia. And let not forget where did this all started, with Al Qaeda, which was created and nurtured and armed by the West. Now everyone is complaining where do all these extremism come from. If
          you are serious about fighting Muslim extremism start by going to the source, in allied countries like Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Qatar, and so on. But that would never happen because you also want your cheap oil. Hypocrites.
          IA

          • Alexsandr

            kids have a right to a proper education. not to be fobbed off with some warper medieval view of the world. Schools should be free from religion, religious artefacts. They should be a place for them to learn and grow. Not a place for nutters to restrict their learning.

          • andrewm031

            Don’t you get tired of typing out your Imam’s rantings? Just once, wouldn’t you like to express your own opinions?

          • sebastian2

            “If you are serious about fighting Muslim extremism start by going to the source, in allied countries like Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Qatar, and so on.”

            As free thinking and enlightened “infidels”, they wouldn’t listen to us – you know that. We might even be killed. But you can go. Go with your resident imam. Go and prove to the rest of us that for once, mohammedans will take responsibility for sorting out their own disfigured excuse for a “religion” instead of blaming everyone else and expecting them to do it for you.

            If you’re of Pakistani origin – as your name suggests – start there at the Lal Masjid by openly denouncing salafism’s four core concepts: (1) al-wala’ wa-l-bara’: loyalty to faithful Muslims and repudiation of non-Muslims; (2) al-hakimiyyah: the exclusive divine source of political authority; (3) al-amr bi-l-ma‘ruf wa-l-nahi ‘an al-munkar: the active injunction to adhere to virtue and abstain from vice; and (4) al-jihad fi sabil illah: defensive (and offensive, when possible) military action to propagate the faith. Then take a trip to Makkah and openly denounce wahabbism and the funding it receives both domestically and internationally.
            In other words, clean your own mess up. Don’t come crying to us. And finally, if you want us to distinguish between “muslims” and “muslims”, better you drop the collective concept of “muslims”, the “muslim world”, the “muslim community”, “global islam”, “international muslim outrage”, the Ummah …………. you get my point. You establish a common constituency; we merely take you at your word. Again, you have yourselves to blame.
            You live by the sword. You’ll die by it. And it’ll be your own weapon.

          • http://www.londonschoolofislamics.org.uk IftikharA

            All extremists, Muslims or non-Muslims are the product of western education system which makes a man stupid, selfish and corrupt. Non 0f 7/7 potential terrorist was ever educated in a Muslim school.

            Whilst I agree that you have an immigration problem in
            this country, I don’t think that this is your main problem. Your main problem is the disintegration of the family unit and the loveless binge drinking environment that your children are growing up in! NEVER in my life have I seen
            another country where people so seldom give their children a hug and a kiss like in this country and NEVER in my life have I seen another country where there are so many children from different fathers growing up in single parent households! Before you tackle the immigration problem (at least the immigrants LOVE their kids) you should first look at yourselves!

            WHY BLAME CHRISTIANITY
            For Irish (Catholic) and British (Protestant) Terrorism?
            and JUDAISM for terrorism in the occupied territories
            (Palestine)? Individuals, not religions, WHY BLAME
            carry out inhuman acts.

            A reporter asked Muslim preacher German Salahuddin Baavugin the relationship between terrorism and Islam, he replied : ~ of which sparked the First World War ? Muslims ? ! ~ Of which sparked the Second World War ? Muslims ? ! ~ Of which has killed 20 million human soul of
            Australian Aborigines ? ! Muslims ? ! ~ Who sent bombs to hit Hiroshima and Nagasaki ? Muslims? ! ~ Of which has killed more than 100 million Indians of the American Indians in North America? Muslims ? ! ~ Of which has killed more than 50 million Indian of Indians in South America ? Muslims ? ! ~ Pastrakkak of which has about 180 million African slaves had died and about 88 % of them and
            been thrown in the Atlantic Ocean ? Muslims ? ! No, they were not Muslims ! ! ! ! Then He added: above all, you have to determine the meaning of terrorism well ; Had a non-Muslim has to do something wrong , then they will be just a crime , but while the Muslims of committing the same mistake it then described terrorism ! ! ! so first you do not double standards , and you will know who the real terrorists ! ! !
            IA

          • sebastian2

            Thank you for your long if perhaps incomplete reply. It’s incomplete because your list omits the millions killed by mohammedans over the centuries up to the present day. To bring that up to date, almost, and to glimpse what’s been happening on and off over time, in 2013 over 8000 were slaughtered in Iraq by mohammedans on mohammedans – green on green. Injuries and serious disfigurements plus unrecorded deaths I cannot give estimates for. This is still going on. And spreading, it seems. Then there was the ruinous war between Iraq and Iran. And there was, more recently than that, the as ruinous conflict in islamist Sudan where many who survived Khartoum’s bombing may have died from hunger and thirst. You want lists? I can give you many. We have lots. Too much lists.
            That said, there’s no point in comparing corpse counts. We are more aware than you are of the bloodshed. We or our forefathers have lived or died from it and we shoulder much blame for it where this is deserved. All I would say is that you are not as exempt as you’d like us to believe you are from those kinds of horrors and that kind of destruction. You, as much as anyone else, have blood on your hands. Your guilt is a great as anybody’s – except that you seem unable to face it. Why? Because you know, and you know I know, and I know you know I know, that anything done in the name of your – with respect – bellicose, narcissistic and confused and fissiparious cult (a kind of profound psychological idolatry – hero worship – that you seem slavishly mesmerised by) that passes itself off as a divine revelation for all time, bears no liability. Al’Lah is, after all, very forgiving of mass murderers – islamic ones, of course.
            You make disparaging remarks about contemporary Britain. Many might agree with you up to a point, but I hope you don’t go so far – though you might – as to blame, for instance, innocent and naive teenage white girls for the ruthless grooming and sexual exploitation they were the victims of. Or somehow to pin responsibility for honour killings and forced marriages, as other instances, on the perpetrators’ UK surroundings. Or ISIS’ current threats against Britain on some similar version of warped exoneration. But you can try if you like. You are welcome to make – with respect – an idiot of yourself on behalf of the RoP.
            Once more, I earnestly advise you to ditch islam altogether. It only gets you into trouble. Take advantage of the freedom of conscience Britain allows and defends, and come to your senses. My regards to your imam – who should do likewise. He’ll be happier for it.

            Pax Vobiscum

          • http://www.londonschoolofislamics.org.uk IftikharA

            I am concerned with the education of Muslim children because British schooling is the home if institutional racism and native teachers are chicken racist. Non-Muslim teacher is not a role model for a Muslim child in his/her development period. Muslim children need state funded Muslim schools with Muslim teachers. There is no place for a non-Muslim child or a teacher in a Muslim school.

            On the one hand
            we get told we are not integrating enough and we should engage more in civic
            society. On the other, when we do, we get accused of having sinister agendas.
            Since when do concerns by religiously conservative parents about teaching on
            homosexuality, girls and boys mixing, and the reciting of prayers, require
            anti-terrorist experts to get involved? Allegations of an Islamic takeover plot
            in Birmingham schools aren’t justified by the evidence – and the government
            response is way out of proportion. Perhaps its best to let the Muslim community
            sort these issues out. These are in effect Muslim schools now. It is up to the
            Muslim community to see off hard liners (if there are any) otherwise it is their
            own children’s’ education that will suffer. I think it would be very difficult
            for non Muslims to get involved either as governors or management so perhaps
            that it is one of the reasons for the conflicts that have arisen. It may be best
            for the Government to but out providing the record of the school is O.K. from an
            exam point of view. I am so disgusted that even after it was proved there is no
            factual evidence or basis for that racist and hate filled document, schools in
            Birmingham are being subjected to this horrific ordeal and the name of many good
            reputable teachers is being tarnished… Why? Clearly viewable that this
            accusation has been purposely placed on these schools which surprisingly
            consists of majority Muslim children. Clearly the school policies are being
            contradicted by Mr Gove as they clearly state that it is the schools priority
            and job to meet the needs of the local community and of the students within the
            school. So if a school is doing that then what is the issue? What is happening
            feels like the persecution of a religious group. This is important because the
            wit hunt feeds Islamophobia. As we can see from the bombings and arson attacks
            on mosques in the UK, Islamophobia is a very dangerous and divisive form of
            racism. I’m sick of this hatred of Islam and Muslims. Haters, ignorant scum,
            look for any means to target Muslims, now even in our schools. It’s a joke and
            this has to stop. How hypocritical does a country have to be to illegally invade
            Muslim countries and then accuse Muslims of terrorism? I am a Muslim. I am an
            anti-terrorist.

            I never realised
            how racist and anti-Islamic this country is until I moved here. These people are
            here legally and have the right to live how they want to. Just because there are
            terrorists who use Islam as a doctrine to justify their hateful acts, does NOT
            mean that every Islam wants to change Britain to Sharia Law, kill the gays and
            put all women in burkas! These people are being judged and punished for the
            actions of others that have nothing to do with them, simply because they are of
            the same religion. Do you judge Germans in the same way because their country
            committed genocide? Or the Irish if they are from an area where religious
            conflict was particularly violent? No. Seems like thinly veiled racism to me,
            not the ‘staunch upholding of British rights against religious extremists’ as
            you all seem to espouse. What do people mean when they talk about
            ‘multiculturalism’? If a lot of people come from a foreign country and settle in
            a particular area they will bring the culture of that country with them. Of
            course they will want their schools to promote their values. Gender segregation
            is everywhere in the Muslim world including in EU applicant, Turkey, so either
            we believe in Britain as multicultural or we don’t. You don’t get to pick and
            choose the bits you want. Why not sit down with parents and listen to their
            concerns, instead of ordering an investigation? Shocked at this terrifying witch
            hunt against Muslims who are simply trying to raise standards. Its totally
            unacceptable to create a furore in the country over anonymous accusations with
            no proof. Because it is a divisive move and will affect community relations.
            This is the very reason why society does not function properly, this is a
            deliberate attempt to spread fear amongst communities, as the best way to
            control a nation is through fear itself. because this is NOT ,,I repeat is NOT
            an Islamic plot to take over Birmingham, so DO NOT put false information in the
            media to put Muslims down!!!!! What next…..Muslims taking over hospitals,
            banks, pubs….come on… Tomorrow, a Pakistani MP would become the PM of GB and
            this does not mean that the country has become a colony of Pakistan.

            IA

          • sebastian2

            I hate to use the word but ………….. are you a “racist” by any unfortunate chance? Please reflect on that. You certainly sound as though you might be – or something very similar.
            In the meantime, please consider this: There is no such thing as “islamophobia”. There is “islamorealism” (which we’ve come to after learning more about this misguided Moon God idolatry); “islamoscepticism” (as we finds its claims improbable to say the least – or even mendacious and impossible); and “islamonausea” through a sort of public, sickening weariness with mohammedism’s whingeing (your post is, with respect, a perfect example), victimism (ditto), and gross attention seeking for all the wrong reasons.
            Once again, I recommend you show some courage and leave this disfigured and destructive nonsense before it does you even more serious harm. You might fit comfortably into the Mormons? And take your imam with you, by the way.

          • Lydia Robinson

            “If a lot of people come from a foreign country and settle in a particular area they will bring the culture of that country with them. Of course they will want their schools to promote their values.”
            I’ve moved to other countries for work and didn’t expect that country (China in this case) to “promote my values.” What an arrogant view of your host country you have.

          • http://www.londonschoolofislamics.org.uk IftikharA

            You are in China on work permit. You do not have Chinese citizenship. But Muslim in UK are British citizens. There are going to live here. The needs and demands of their children are entirely different from native children. This is the main reason why majority of Muslim parents would like to send their children to state Muslim schools with Muslim teachers. There is no place for a non-Muslim child or a teacher in a Muslim school.

          • Lydia Robinson

            There you have it folks. Immigrants traditionally blend in with the country they have chosen to move to but this lot expect a carbon copy of their own Islamic society to be set up funded by the British taxpayer. If I’d made such a set of demands to the various countries I have emigrated to, I would be told to stick it where the sun don’t shine.

          • Bobby Donavan

            Islam is an affront to God himself, the father of Christ. Allah is nothing more than a pagan moongod.

          • sebastian2

            With three daughters – deities in their own right – who were at the heart of the “Satanic verses” controversy.

      • Caps Lock

        This whole post is a wind up, right?

        • Lydia Robinson

          You’ve heard it from the horse’s mouth. He and his fellow co-religionists expect our taxpayers to “promote his values” in schools. Nothing about fitting in with the host country to which he has willingly emigrated.

      • Alexsandr

        no faith schools. lets have the French secular model. If religions want to educate children, they can use their own money, not taxpayers.

        and any school should be required by law to not segregate children by gender or race or religion, for segregation is a Nazi thing. And all kids should be taught about all religions, about biology including sex. No parental opt outs. Failing to do that for the kids is failing them. Parents who find this offensive are abusing their children through making them ignorant.

        • Kamil Hussain

          Germany has an excellent solution to combating islamic extremism by introducing in depth sunni islamic teachings in their state schools by teachers appointed by the state who are monitored and trusted as non extremist personalities.
          It is no secret that a very small percentage of ‘muslims’ are radical, regardless of the idiots in this country who generalise. the radicalist ‘muslims’ are called wahabi’s. They are an extremist sect known for using force and misinterpreting quranic verses and hadith to justify killing of innocents etc.

          As a muslim I want to rid islam and the world of the sick and twisted wahabi/salafi sect as they are the source of the hatred being spread in the name of islam.

          This is a message for non muslims on this site, Understand that not all muslims support terrorism or extremism.

          If an atheist commits rape tomorrow, it wouldnt be right to brand all atheists rapists.. yet this so called tolerant society jumps at the chance to attack muslims.

          • sebastian2

            Yes. Strange, when we really don’t need to. Mohammedans – followers of the RoP – are excellent at attacking each other. Why need us? As for wahabbists and salafists, they of course, view themselves as true muslims – the “real” islam. Which, if you think mohammedism means a literal following of the qur’an’s divine doctrines and patterning yourself on the so called “prophet”, they really are. Unpleasant; ugly; dangerous; brutal; backward; but “real” – as they were when, let by the deluded and illiterate Mohammed, they first terrorised and stole from the former arabian peoples. They are not “misinterpreting” anything.
            You seem to want islam without the islam. My earnest suggestion is that you abandon it altogether (as many have) and present yourself to the nearest rabbi or priest.

          • Kamil Hussain

            It doesnt matter whether they see themselves as the ‘true’ muslims, it doesnt mean they are.

            the edl see themselves as the true british community but they do not constitute for the majority. They just bark the loudest.

            The Prophet taught us that its haram to destroy a plant (during war) if its not obstructing your path.

            So for these few individual wahabi groups going against such teachings should clarify for you that they are going against the Prophet rather than reflecting his nature.

            You claimed that the muslims stole from the arabian people so you conclude they must be wrong.
            its well known that america was taken from the indians but I dont see you speaking against them. Rather britain is allied with america. Im just saying double standards should be avoided.

          • Alexsandr

            Thanks for posting that. But I am not aware of atheists committing criminal acts then declaring they did it in the name of atheism. That’s the difference.
            And if there are this huge number of moderate Muslims, they have to explain how they square the violent verses in the Koran which see quite unequivocal to me.
            Also, the moderate Muslims have to do a bit of PR to make their voices known. If they fail to condemn the atrocities, then people will think they agree with them or at best don’t care. Islam has let the nutters have centre stage for too long. If we are to believe there is truly a moderate Muslim sect then they must be far far more vocal. (Or are they too scared to speak out in case they are branded not true Muslims)
            (Why does the spell checker allow uncapitalised ‘atheism’ but not ‘Muslims’???)

          • Kamil Hussain

            Not necessarily in the name of atheism but in the name of britishness we see groups like the ed-iots, i mean, edl.
            I understand they are not a reflection of mainstream british culture however they do shout very loud. This is the same thing the wahabbies do. The only difference is with the latter group all attention is directed towards muslims.

            I do agree with you that islam needs a PR campaign desperately. The only platform I see personally is answering objections like you see on this site etc.

            I have no problems promoting the truth regardless of who im facing whether it be muslims/ wahabies or kuffar.

            The atrocities caused by extremists have never been promoted or supported by myself or my associates. (I am a teacher in a mosque teaching boys aged 11-15).

            I teach my students that the wahabies are to be avoided at every cost and they are to be exposed as deviants within islam. Living in this country since birth means it is also our country. Our home. I have never experienced any problem stopping us from practising our religion so for the wahabies to now claim we need to take this country over is absurd. My students understand this well. This does not mean that I have any problem with sharia law, as a muslim the law ALLAH has set is perfect.

            Democracy is another way of life adopted in this country and it doesnt mean its wrong. Its far from perfect but not wrong.
            But yes, a moderate group of Muslims does exist and it is the majority of muslims who fall into this category.

          • Alexsandr

            but even you are being prescriptive.

            you say ‘I teach my students that the wahabies are to be avoided at every cost and they are to be exposed as deviants within islam.’ Well, when I had teenage kids I avoided telling them not to do things because that was a sure fire way of making them do that very thing. Instead of saying avoid certain people with tenets you don’t like, you need to tell them why and let them make their own minds up. In the west 100% obedience isnt the norm. If we dont push boundaries and make mistakes we dont grow.

          • Kamil Hussain

            The end result of what I teach leads to avoiding wahabies at all costs. My style of teaching is highly interactive. I discuss all the points with my students in great detail exploring all the objections they can pose and answering them. I ask them to bring arguments from non muslims or wahabies or anyone who has any decent objection and we answer the questions together.

            In the end we establish what should be considered as the right thing. Its not about hating individual people, rather avoiding dangerous ideologies regardless of who holds them.

            ‘If we dont push boundaries and make mistakes we dont grow’

            I disagree with such an idea regardless of it being the norm. The thing about a norm is that it can change. As a nation people should become better over time rather than worse. Don’t you agree??

            There is an ancient proverb,

            ‘an intelligent person learns from other peoples mistakes whereas an idiot learns from their own’

            If 20 people have jumped off a a mountain and died will the 21st person deciding to jump off be considered smart or not??

          • Alexsandr

            sorry, your analogy is not a good one.
            At work I could continue to do my job in the same old way I have done it for 20 years.
            Or I could spend a little time looking for better more effiecient ways of doing it. Sometimes the new way I design turns out to be rubbish, and I have to re-think. Other times I get a benefit. But I feel I have learned even though I have made a mistake.
            Another thing. In my job most of the time its not knowing stuff, its knowing where to look. And if in doubt see if anyone in the office knows. Cos 10 minutes with a colleague can save me lots of time. Bit I have found people from other cultures dont like to ask, thinking its weakness. But asking is essential to doing a job well.

          • Kamil Hussain

            I should have clarified that proverb I quoted is used to describe dangerous or negative mistakes. something that will make life more difficult for you in the long run.
            Rather what you suggested coincides perfectly with this proverb. Rather than making mistakes until you find your answer you ask others and find the answer in a fraction of the time minimising your chances of failure.
            The comment you made about people from other cultures not asking. Well I cannot comment on that as I have not noticed that. Rather I have seen it over all cultures. The defining factor as to whether people ask or not is pride. The more stubborn a person is the less likely to ask.
            This is my personal opinion. So there might be many faults to this theory.

          • Kamil Hussain

            I feel its much more important for me that I explain the ideologies of the wahabi sect to my students as if they dont understand the evil of the group then there is more chance they will be radicalised by the group in the future.
            If you hear about the cases of the youngsters with extremist ideas they are not usually very intelligent and so are easily swayed. I prefer to teach my students critical thinking to equip them with the tools to defend themselves from any illogical ideologies, scoping from extremism to atheism etc.

      • sebastian2

        Depends on their beliefs. In mohammedism’s case, they are beliefs we and our children can do without. They are beliefs mohammedans can do without too. I think you should all convert to, say, Buddhism; or reformed Judaism. The C of E perhaps – that’s inoffensive enough. Or anything reasonable and broadly peaceful. Try it. You’ll be far happier. As it is you’re on the road to conflict, bigotry and dread of divine punishment. Don’t say you weren’t warned, or as Ofsead would say “advised”.
        An aside: Please don’t lecture us – or even your brother mohammedan’s who are gleefully slaughtering each other in your Moon God’s name – on islam’s “real” message. We read it. We witness it. We disapprove of it. We don’t believe it. Moreover, I rather think we know more about your questionable creed than you do. You are lucky to be living in Britain where a degree of tolerance is extended to your peculiar convictions that’s much greater than an islamic state extends to others. But that tolerance, generous as it is, has reached its limit.

      • Dutchnick

        You are wrong to suggest that all faiths and beliefs should be treated the same. We find that the promotion of pedophilia, Nazism, racism is unacceptable, doubtless those pedophiles are nice people with rights but society deems their beliefs contrary to a civilised society. I do not doubt that Muslim children are confused when they have one belief given at home and another at school. Critical thinking, empirical evidence and the daily news of what their faith means in reality must be confusing. Education is the answer and it is where the Muslim faith faces the greatest challenge. Any faith that promotes Sharia, death for apostasy and forces acceptance of a faith without question is a serous threat to the future of these kids and I think that it is questionable whether any such promotion should be allowed. If I wrote that all non believers in my faith should be killed, that gays should be stoned etc etc I would be in court. The problem is this faith mandates that and I challenge any Muslim to deny the contents of the Koran.They cannot!

      • remigius

        Muslim children suffer from identity crises because their parents teach them Islam and their schools teach them something else.

        And what exactly is that something else they are being taught in school. Science, ethics, English – the language of the country they live in, history, religious education – all religions not just one!, citizenship, sex education, etc. Need I go on.

        Don’t blame the education, blame the indoctrination.

      • sebastian2

        With the greatest of respect, I sense that you are the one “isolated and confused about who they [you] are”.

      • Sage Ham

        You are right. People have a right to hang themselves.
        However what I don’t understand is why the British are destroying their civilization allowing you all in

    • global city

      Yes. Islamist ideology rather makes a mockery of the Left’s boast of always confronting bigotry and supremicism. Sick jokes.

    • peter the painter

      No point in denegrating the medieval world as barbaric, when compared to this current state of affairs, it was a golden era.

  • Ostercy

    You are no better than the Nazi writers who used to stir up anti-Jewish sentiment using stuff like the “Blood Libel” hoax during the 1930’s. You should be ashamed, your incitement to racial hatred should not be published and your editor should resign.

    • Caramel Abdul Jizzbar

      You are conflating race with religion. There’s nothing wrong with hating a belief system. Islam is a very harmful belief system … the evidence of this is everywhere you look. It is indefensible, poisoned by its very founder, a horrible man who would be in jail if he were alive today.

      • Ostercy

        Please go and be an apologist for this extreme right wing tripe somewhere else.

        • Richard Sanderson

          Ironically, Islam could also be described as extreme right-wing tripe. Two peas in a pod.

          • Ostercy

            If you are defending this article then you are in no position to talk in my opinion.

          • The_Average_Joe_UK

            Exactly your opinionated and have a very big gob. Sadly you’re short on a defence and just another lefty who’ll let people take the mickey because of your religious beliefs on matter political.

          • Ostercy

            You are just making my point for me.

          • EnglandLaments

            It always amuses me how the English liberal left are so swift in the defence of a misogynistic, homophobic, reason denying cult. Why is that so?

          • Ostercy

            It always amuses me the type of people Douglas Murray gets rushing to defend him. Says so much more about his article than the actual article itself.

          • EnglandLaments

            And just what “type of people” would that be? You sound McCarthyist.

          • Ostercy

            Read the comments and decide for yourself.

          • EnglandLaments

            You have a lamentable philosphy, a classic case of sophist denial. You try to liken natural dismay at the culture of Islam, with Nazi anti-Jewish sentiment. There is no parallel whatsoever. Firstly, Jews are a race, an ethnicity as well as being members of the religion of Judaism. Islam is a proselytising, multi-ethnic faith and culture. Secondly, Judaism does not seek converts, it does not seek to corrupt, bully and cajole its host cultures into becoming “Jewish”. Islam is a culture which seeks world domination and the corruption of its host cultures to its own, demented ideology.
            Why are the liberal left in this country, apologists for a barbaric, alien, Medieval cult?

          • Ostercy

            I was wondering whether it was worth commenting on the article and the responses I am getting convince me I was completely right to do so.

          • EnglandLaments

            Well, you are at liberty to plough your lonely and erroneous furrow. Once the Islamists have control, there will be no such thing as free speech, so more fool you.

          • Ostercy

            If Douglas Murray wrote this ghastly article as a rabble rousing device, apparently he has succeeded.

          • EnglandLaments

            Well, he has most certainly roused you! Or don’t you realise that you and your ilk are the rabble?

          • MissDemeanor

            bla bla bla

            you say nothing
            you make no sense
            you might as well be gone

          • Alexsandr

            hopefully you will learn something and realise Islam is the problem. But I suspect you have a closed mind.

          • Damaris Tighe

            Thank you.

          • Alexsandr

            you forgot that Jews don’t want to kill those that leave. Unlike Islam and their Apostasy tenet. They dont stone women to death in public either.

          • global city

            You assert that, but you are wrong. These statements of yours only seem rational from inside some really weird bubble of self hate and contrarianism.

          • MissDemeanor

            ^ delusional

            the only point that is being made here, is that lefties like you, truly are abhorrently ignorant and dangerous

            if I were you I’d be ashamed, I hope you have no daughters, how you could face them is beyond me

          • Damaris Tighe

            Aha, the pc mentality of censorship raises its ugly head …

          • itbeso

            You are entitled to your opinion but I also have the right to speak and disagree. It’s one of those British values thingys.

          • Ostercy

            Slightly ironic claim of victimhood given the context.

          • global city

            If you are truly serious about what you write about the tone and intent of DM’s article then why not report him to the Equalities Commission, or even the Police?

            The game of Racial/Cultural Top Trumps has only ever really worked from inside the SWP and LSE. You are not defending an oppressed victim group, you are justifying some really nasty developments.

          • Ostercy

            I’m sure that lawyers for the Spectator went through the article as carefully as a tax dodger’s accountant to make sure that they were were at the border of what is legal but didn’t step over it.

          • global city

            No doubt, but that does not mean that DM is rabblerousing or displaying some sort of racism.

            Your attitude, and the tactics you have displayed on this thread are typical of the ones that have landed us where we are with this issue.

            I say ‘we’ but then, the vast majority of people who are threatened by Islamist extremists are bloody Muslim. Trying to play your part in closing down the debate is actually the most racist stance you could take.

          • Richard Sanderson

            I’m not. I’m pointing out what constitutes extreme right-wing tripe. Do you agree?

          • http://t.co/rXjomKpfUv JP Janson De Couet

            I’m sure there are Muslims who are right wing and right wingers who are Muslims, but I haven’t assessed the major world religions to try and define them as left wing or wing wing, I must admit.

          • Richard Sanderson

            Islam is a deeply conservative religion, hostile to liberal values. Those are classic signs, among many, that it is a right wing ideology. It is not the only religion that is right wing, of course.

          • Alexsandr

            typical ignorant leftie. when losing the argument, throw teddies out of pram. The left is so so wrong on this. They should hang their heads in shame.

        • Caramel Abdul Jizzbar

          If you’re going to bother to respond, you might as well explain “why’ the author is wrong. I don’t think he is. Islam is nothing more than a belief system … it is not a race. People of all races join and (on occasion) leave the faith. It is an institution that produces behaviour, and that behaviour is necessarily a product of its primary “holy” texts and the example of its founder.

          I have no respect for religion whatsoever. Even as far as religions go, islam strikes me as especially harmful to the development of humanity. Not only does it have an obvious problem with the scale and frequency of violence done specifically in the name of religion, its societies worldwide are terrible examples of intolerance, oppression, misogyny, homophobia and wilfull ignorance.

          You need to do more than just say “right-wing tripe”. That’s not an argument.

          • Ostercy

            I’m a Catholic and don’t feel qualified to either defend or attack Islam as a faith.

          • MissDemeanor

            arabs have a name for ppl like you:

            dhimmi

          • Caramel Abdul Jizzbar

            And yet here you are, defending islam repeatedly.

            You can defend or attack as you wish. You don’t have to be an “expert” in islam to identify it has a threat to humanity. You’ve chosen to be Catholic … are you an expert on every single other religion you’re not? If not, you’ve made an unqualified decision on their merit, or lack thereof.

            I suspect you’re one of those Christians who defends islam simply because it’s another religion. “Hey, mate. You turn a blind eye to my craziness, and I’ll turn a blind eye to yours, wink wink.”

          • Damaris Tighe

            In that case you really have lost the plot if you can’t make distinctions between your own religion & Islam.

          • http://t.co/rXjomKpfUv JP Janson De Couet

            Judging from this reply and your other replies to me, you’re really moderately stupid aren’t you?

          • Damaris Tighe

            you fall back on abuse when you run out of arguments

          • Alexsandr

            classic lefty argument.

          • Alexsandr

            well you should. Read the Koran. Until you understand where the hatred comes from you are not qualified to judge.
            They hate infidels, christians, jews, apostates (really hate them) and other muslems who think differently. And their book is full of requirements to slay, kill etc.

          • http://t.co/rXjomKpfUv JP Janson De Couet

            I’m still digesting the hatred in the Bible thanks.

        • MissDemeanor

          and what are you?

          an apologist for a nazi pedophile warlord?

        • Alexsandr

          it isnt right wing tripe to find a religion that esposes mysogeny, hatred, violence, mutilation and intolerance unacceptable. What I dont understand is how the left think these traits are in any way acceptable.

          • http://t.co/rXjomKpfUv JP Janson De Couet

            This may be a bit subtle for you but I’ll have a go.
            Ehem.
            It is possible to simultaneously against racism and against human right violations. It isn’t either or.
            Thanks.

          • Alexsandr

            now try putting that in a sentence that we can understand.

          • http://t.co/rXjomKpfUv JP Janson De Couet

            Is English not your first language?

          • Alexsandr

            yes, and you obviously need something between simultaneously and against for it to make sense. simultaneously what?

    • The_Average_Joe_UK

      I live in the middle of a very large Islamic community. I will say they are happy to live totally separate lives and that is wrong. I wont repeat what I hear as I’ll be accused of all sorts. Ther Nazi’s were wrong because they lied. Please tell us about the lies in this article. Or are you just another armchair academic with a strong opinion.

      • Ostercy

        The whole article is a lie. There is no Trojan Horse Plot, and Ofsted were instructed to find something that proved Gove’s Islamism theory before they even arrived and overturned their finding from only a year earlier. “Radicalisation” is not happening any more in Birmingham schools in support of any ideology, islam, Tory or other. The Tories are finding another scapegoat to distract attention from their Govt and apparently they dissociated themselves from Douglass Murray in the past for his open bigotry. Your turn to provide some “facts”.

        • MrsDBliss

          “Your turn to find me some facts”
          That would imply you’d supplied some. You haven’t you’ve just made unsupported allegations.

          • Ostercy

            Facts don’t cease to be facts just because you find them inconvenient.

          • MrsDBliss

            You haven’t supplied facts so my reply is facts don’t become facts because you say they are.
            Ofsted were instructed to find something that proved Gove’s Islamism theory before they even arrived (and then overturned their findings from only a year earlier.)
            An assertion, no facts.
            “Radicalisation” is not happening in Birmingham schools in support of any ideology, islam, Tory or other.
            An assertion, no facts.
            The Tories are finding another scapegoat to distract attention from their Govt and apparently they dissociated themselves from Douglass Murray in the past for his open bigotry.
            An assertion, no facts.
            Yr just making statements. Are you for real or a really good parody like lefty thinker? If you’re the latter I’m afraid it went over my head.

          • MissDemeanor

            but just because you say something, doesn’t make it a fact

            Muslims not being able to live in peace with Sikhs, Buddhists, Christians, Hindus, Jews and even other Muslims….now THAT’S A FACT!

          • http://t.co/rXjomKpfUv JP Janson De Couet

            Meanwhile in India, Myanmar, Thailand and Israel/Palestine…
            What bigoted ignorance.
            Douglas Murray must be so proud to have people like you attempting to defend him.

        • Baron

          So, you are furnishing this short, badly articulated vomit of personal beliefs as proof of no radicalisation in the Birmingham’s schools, are you, Ostercy? It’s more a proof, although it wasn’t really needed, of you own imbecility (whether inbred or acquired matters not), unchecked arrogance, and a total lack of common sense.

          You either seek medical help, or alternatively curl up in a quiet corner, keep on evolving.

          • Ostercy

            I was wondering whether it was worth commenting on the article and the responses I am getting convince me I was completely right to do so.

          • Alexsandr

            twice you said that. cut and paste is good when you run out of original stuff.

        • Fasdunkle

          You should read some of the conversations on a website the islamist teachers used – Andrew Gilligan has detailed them in one of his reports.

        • MissDemeanor

          look everybody:

          this guy front he internet ‘Ostercy’ is telling us that he really knows the truth and we should all listen to him!

          sorry, but I don;t believe for 1 second that you’re not Muslim – you sound just as simple mixed and ignorant as most of them

        • The_Average_Joe_UK

          You are an idiot. Goodbye.

          • http://t.co/rXjomKpfUv JP Janson De Couet

            Bye now! 😀

    • MrsDBliss

      There’s a big problem with this ‘blood libel’ claim. The idea that Jews used children, killing them and using their blood, in religious practices were only vicious slander; it’s why it’s so appalling. However your equating that to the accusations against these school but it’s a Faldo comparison. After all the assertions about what is taught in these schools are what’s taught in Islam. Jews used a lamb or other animals in sacrifice which is documented in the Torah, not children. In Islam wearing of the veil, segregation of children at puberty, other religious adherents as dhimmis, the use of violence in spreading Islam, the treatment if Jews etc are all part of Islam and in the main practised by Muhammad.

      • Ostercy

        Being pedantic about types of bigotry and hate speech does nothing to defend Douglas Murray’s dreadful article.

        • MrsDBliss

          No, that’s not pedantic. I’m just going to take it that you’ve accepted the point and are too proud to acknowledge it.

        • Damaris Tighe

          Pedantic? Fact versus fiction is pedantic? You just want to censor debate.

          • Ostercy

            Slightly ironic comment given the context.

          • Damaris Tighe

            = ?????

      • Damaris Tighe

        Spot on. This sort of mindless blanket equivalence just aims to close down the debate by insinuating that rational criticism of islam based on facts is equivalent to the irrational libels aimed at jews.

    • Damaris Tighe

      Sorry, this type of pc demonisation of anyone who criticises the RoP just doesn’t work any more. The spell has broken.

      • Alexsandr

        every night you watch the news and so much of the problems are Islam.
        Brum schools
        Boko Harem
        kenya massacre
        Iraq/syria ISIS

    • MissDemeanor

      again:

      comparing jews to muslims, is like comparing lalique vases to the trainspotting toilet

      makes only sense in the minds of extremely ignorant, jew hating, terrorist sympathising troglodytes

      • Emilia

        Jews are not commanded by their religion to infiltrate other countries and take them over, either by force of numbers or just by force if they wish. Jews are not told by their religion that it is fine to lie to gentiles, even in court. Jews do not use religion as an excuse to cover their faces in public and avoid CCTV scrutiny. Jews don’t go around referring to gentile girls as prostitutes. The list is endless, but the parallels simply don’t exist.

    • mohdanga

      What race is Islam?

      • MissDemeanor

        a parasitic one

      • http://t.co/rXjomKpfUv JP Janson De Couet

        A race to Allah, apparently.
        Take that stupid old Barrack Room Lawyer ploy for trying to avoid being called a racist and shove it.

        • Alexsandr

          buy a dictionary and look up ‘RACE’ It may just slightly reduce your ignorance and illiteracy.

          But then the left always did rewrite the language to justify their hatred.

    • S1999

      Sod off, you demented old fool.

  • ITALO ROMANO

    AN absolutely disgraceful front cover of the magazine. reminiscent of the hounding of Jews by Nazis in 1930s Germany – a few years before they erected and fired-up the gas chambers. Disgusting. Spectator – you should be ashamed.

    • Fasdunkle

      And you need to get a grip

      • global city

        The people who have enabled this sort of stuff have dozens of agencies and masses of money and resources to whip up hysteria.

        The slight whiff of hyperbole in the ‘Muslim horde’ group is understandable – a symptom, a direct consequence of what has been demanded from ordinary folk for 20 years? Maybe they took the PC community and their demands for equality and tolerance to heart and are baulking at the outright abuses of these memes?

    • Shazza

      No – they should not be ashamed. Brave people like Douglas Murray and Andrew Gilligan have the cojones to tell the truth – it is not ‘hate speech’.
      This cover should be on the front of every newspaper in this country and in fact, in every Western, civilised country.Nobody is advocating violence against the RoP least of all the brave publishers of the Spectator.

      If you want to go and live in an islamic country – off you go. We like living in secular, civilised Britain and want it to remain that way for ourselves, children and grandchildren.

      The only horror that is being perpetuated is by the RoP, and in fact wherever this Dark Age ideology rears it’s ugly head, horror follows.

      Keep up the good work, Spectator! Keep on telling the truth! Bravo!

    • Kitty MLB

      Why should they be ashamed, we have huge in this country
      and are not allowed to voice our opinions because we
      might offend others.Some of whom’s existence is an
      offence to the freedom and democracy of this country.
      The English have a voice too.

    • Damaris Tighe

      Big difference – the claims about the Jews were wholly unjustified; these criticisms of Islam are not unjustified. Unfortunately the holocaust against the Jews has been used by the left to silence criticism of any culture except our own. As a result Jews in Europe are suffering all over again from attacks by a culture which can’t be criticised because – cruel irony! – of this cynical use of the past. Just shout ‘gas chambers’ & we’re supposed to shut up.

      • MissDemeanor

        well said

        • Damaris Tighe

          Thank you but I prefer your righteous indignation! Spot on!

      • Julieann Carter

        well said! The rise of anti-Semitism across Europe runs parallel to Muslim expansionism through Europe. The !eft revel, (really) – anything that denigrates their perceived symbol of ‘evil’ Capitalism.

        • Kennybhoy

          “… rise of anti-Semitism across Europe…”

          You mean resurgence surely? Within our parent’s lifetimes ostensibly Christian Europeans tried to annihilate the Children of Israel.

          1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.
          2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
          3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother’s eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
          4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?
          5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother’s eye.

          —Matthew 7:1-5 KJV

    • MissDemeanor

      comparing the persecution of Jews, who have lived in Europe for centuries, and have contributed in music, arts, literature, science, medicine, etc etc to Muslims, who have been in Europe for 30 years and have turned our cities into toilets and have contributed pretty much nothing to humanity overall (esp considering that there is 1.6 billion of them!), is like comparing a crystal vase to the trainspotting toilet!

  • ITALO ROMANO

    No one has spared a thought for the Children, many of whom are sitting important exams at this moment. if there are issues of inappropriate influence by governors then this needs to be addressed after the exam period and outside of the highly charged political arena.
    On a broader point. these Schools are over 90% Muslim. My understanding was that the thrust of school’s policy since the 1980s has been to empower parents as consumers and for schools to meet the needs of their parents. If there are more Islamic activities then this is a natural consequence of this approach. To my knowledge, there have been no complaints from parents and children. So my question is. Should the Schools be run to meet the needs of local communities or should they be run to satisfy the prejudices of Westminster politicians, many of whom benefited from privileged and uninterrupted education. Nothing like kicking people when they are down. The Spectator seems to specialise in this.

    • MrsDBliss

      You’ve thought of the children? Ha! Only the male ones.

    • itbeso

      “to empower parents as consumers and for schools to meet the needs of their parents.”
      Well perhaps that particular ideology needs looking at too.

      • Alexsandr

        the schools should be for the children, not the parents. They should not pander to parents prejudices, and should be required to teach about all religions, and all science and the arts. and PE.

    • MissDemeanor

      ‘kicking people when they are down’

      who on earth are you talking about???
      the violent threatening nutters who demand demand demand, while enjoying freedom, safety, homes, mosques, schools in our countries?
      they destroy their own countries, at their own hands, kill their own people, then they come to ours, and want to the same over here.

      nobody kills as many muslims as other muslims, and nobody pushes muslims to the ground like other muslims

      everything they get is 100% self inflicted!

      an ideology that is offended always and ashamed never – sickening!

  • Tom

    Certainly a ‘brave’ cover for a mainstream magazine. Not sure how well it will go down with everyone, but at least it acknowledges one truth. Children should not be exposed to ideology at all – it is as ridiculous to think a child can make an informed decision about faith when they attend a school with 98% one religion, or worse, a faith based school.

    However, we don’t need to teach British Values to prevent this, we just need to apply them to the education system.

    Interesting read here – http://www.thelaymansterms.com/no-values-please-were-british/

  • The Patriot

    I do sense slight change in the MSM now this has all come to light, before now the M and the I word were seen as being untouchable for the most part, but across the papers (perhaps not guardian etc) there seems to be a lot more honesty from the journalists… usually their admitting ‘we’ were wrong, like they’re trying to say we the people were allowing what happened to continue… Mr Murray has been one of the very few to tell it as it is and I thank him for that…. If only he were the Home Secretary… I don’t know if it’s just me but it feels like the media are coming round to the vast majority of the population’s view point, but will the government? And will the government come down hard on these people, because that is all they understand..

    I would call them traitors but Murray and a lot of us know that it is Muslim first, British a distant second..

    • Shazza

      I have noticed that a lot of posts, including those on The Telegraph that are quite critical of the RoP are not being deleted as quickly as they used to be.

      • Damaris Tighe

        I noticed it too but it started in May after UKIP’s success. If nothing else UKIP has succeeded in making these issues discussable again after 45 years of soft censorship.

        • Alexsandr

          i think it germinated in Lee Rigbys butchering.

      • Kennybhoy

        Yup. As I wrote elesewhere, even Al-Beeb seems to have been given pause for thoct’…

        Nonetheless…

        Ceterum censeo BBC esse delendam!

      • James Lovelace

        You can also trace the impact of EDL. Statistical analysis of the “quality” press reporting on FGM shows that they ignored this subject for about 20 years. Suddenly in 2010, reporting rocketed, where by 2013 it was 1000% more than just 5 years earlier.

        http://4freedoms.com/xn/detail/3766518:Comment:145209

        When EDL started in 2009, the police said EDL would not last more than 6 months. By 2010 it looks like the EDL was having such a profound effect that the journalists started to discuss FGM, and the CPS started prosecuting the grooming gangs.

        Personally, I believe that the same swell of support for EDL is also buoying up UKIP. When I went to a hustings in 2010, you would never have guessed that just 4 years later UKIP would be doing so well.

      • Kamil Hussain

        what does ‘RoP’ mean??

    • Fraser Bailey

      I can’t say I’ve seen any sign of mea culpa in the Guardian or on the BBC. They will never admit it. Not even when ISIS or their UK equivalent sweep through Broadcasting House and Guardian HQ chopping off heads will they admit it.

      • Trofim

        Not sure about that. I can just see a disembodied BBC employee’s head piping up and saying “Most Muslims are peace-loving and tolerant. It’s just a few bad apples, you know”.

        • global city

          ‘Fisking’ is regarded as an admirable trait amongst BBC staff.

    • Damaris Tighe

      You’re right but I noticed this change after UKIP’s success in May. It was if the wicked witch’s pc spell had been broken & people felt free to say what they think.

  • EnglandLaments

    Another excellent article, to add to the one by Allison Pearson in today’s Telegraph:
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/educationnews/10892606/Trojan-Horse-debate-We-were-wrong-all-cultures-are-not-equal.html
    These articles correctly identify the problem. Now, we have to stand up and fight it.
    First off, ban marriage between first cousins – it is an abhorrent and unnatural act in any case.
    Secondly, scrap the multi-culti heresy and promote our values everywhere and at all times!
    Thirdly, start bussing children out of the Muslim ghettos, so they can go to school with western kids and learn about things other than the oppressive ideology of Islam.

    • Damaris Tighe

      Yes, but what values should we promote? Those that pertained in the 1940s which are now all but dead? Or whatever that passes for values in 2014 – the right to divorce at the drop of a hat, to have children with multiple partners without censure, to drink to oblivion, to dress our children like porn stars? Muslims hate all this. Why should we care? Because it’s destroying us as well.

      • EnglandLaments

        We don’t need to import an alien culture, to see the faults in our own. Islam may value the family and propriety, but it is also deeply misogynistic, homophobic, exclusive and intolerant. Plus it has all the stupid baggage, which most religions encumber the faithful with.

        • Damaris Tighe

          Of course, I agree with everything you say about Islam but why is it that whenever I say anything critical about contemporary British culture it’s assumed I’m in some way defending Islam? It seems that some people just don’t want to hear uncomfortable truths about ourselves; it’s so much easier to criticise (I stress, with justification) the alien culture.

          We will never defeat this alien culture unless we put our own house in order.

          • global city

            That’s all we ever do. I see it as, mostly a good British trait (value?)… never, NEVER just blindly accept stuff on authority, even if your religion demands this.

      • global city

        That the people are sovereign and do not accept the diktat of a single supreme source, whether political or religious is the absolute baseline. That gives us all genuine equality under OUR Common law, it has inspired open democratic structures, tolerance. It also gives us a proper baseline upon which to build in the future.

      • James Lovelace

        “Why is it that native kids convert to Islam? ”

        They don’t. I’ve lived in muslim areas for the best part of 30 years. In those 30 years I could count the number of non-muslims who converted to islam on the fingers of both hands.

    • Peter Stroud

      Bussing children to areas of culture different to their parents, etc. is a good idea. It was used in the early sixties in the Southern states in the USA, during the civil rights struggles. It seemed to work at the time, though there were vicious protests by some extremist whites.

    • Kaine

      Are you suggesting taking kids from deprived areas of inner city Birmingham and sending them to schools with catchment areas encompassing affluent suburban districts?

      I mean, I think it’s a rather nifty idea, but I shall be intrigued at the response of the burghers of Solihull.

      • EnglandLaments

        The burghers of Solihull might not like the idea, but once it bedded in, they would come to see the sense of it.

    • Kaine

      Are you suggesting taking kids from deprived areas of inner city Birmingham and sending them to schools with catchment areas encompassing affluent suburban districts?

      I mean, I think it’s a rather nifty idea, but I shall be intrigued at the response of the burghers of Solihull.

    • Alexsandr

      bussing is a good idea. the yanks did it to reduce racial tension in the 70’s

    • Kamil Hussain

      ‘First off, ban marriage between first cousins – it is an abhorrent and unnatural act in any case.’

      This seems like a caption that should be read for homosexuality – it is an abhorrent and unnatural act in any case. See it fits perfectly.

      Just to be clear I am against forced marriage as Islam states its haram.
      I have seen more than my fair share of such cases and I have rebuked these cases at every stand. I am a pakistani so you can see how it would be common in this culture.
      That’s right, CULTURE, not religion!!
      These problems become apparent and promoted by certain cultures but as they know they cannot justify it they misinterpret some hadith to suit them.

      Therefore they are not the right people to observe to get a good picture of islam.

  • zanzamander

    What is amazing is how nearly everyone in the media and politics who is rightly appalled by “Islamisation” of public schools are, it seems, quite comfortable with inexcusable hatred being taught in Islamic faith schools!

    Be that as it may, but isn’t it about time we actually came out and admitted that Islamic teachings, even in their mildest form, are against British/Western/Jude-Christian values of tolerance, equality and inclusivity, and as such is not suitable to be taught to young impressionable kids?

    By skirting around the real uncomfortable aspects of Islam, are we not being too kind for our own and our kids’ good?

    What is wrong in saying that the problem is not about the way Islam is taught but Islam itself?

    • Shazza

      Well said.

    • wudyermucuss

      Truth will out,it’s inevitable.
      But how and when is anybody’s guess.

    • itbeso

      Agree after we have finished looking the state sector schools we need to look at the private Faith schools, the Mosques and the Madrassas. Then can we do away with the travestys called sharia councils?

  • Anthorny

    As written recently in the Spectator by Nicholas Wade on the evolutionary differences of races or human groups :

    “Many important features of today’s world lack explanation. Why are some
    countries rich and others persistently poor? Capital and information
    flow fairly freely, so what is it that prevents poor countries from
    taking out a loan, copying every Scandinavian institution, and becoming
    as rich and peaceful as Denmark? Africa has absorbed billions of dollars
    in aid over the past half-century and yet, until a recent spurt of
    growth, its standard of living has stagnated for decades. South Korea
    and Taiwan, on the other hand, almost as poor at the start of the
    period, have enjoyed an economic resurgence. Why have these countries
    been able to modernise so rapidly while others have found it much
    harder?”

    Thus in the case of the Muslim countries and cultures, perhaps there is an
    evolutionary reason for the barbaric differences. This might explain the
    ubiquitous extreme cruelty towards women, programmed hatred of other
    beliefs and cultures and a propensity towards acts of gratuitously
    sickening violence like the video-taping of beheadings etc. All of these
    behaviors are so abhorrent to western civilizations, yet
    accepted by Muslims, that such striking differences may perhaps
    only be explained from an evolutionary perspective.

    • zanzamander

      Allison Pearson in her brave article in The Telegraph has unequivocally admitted that “We were wrong, all cultures are not equal”.

      There is most definitely a hierarchy of cultures that we must we all now admit exists.

      http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/educationnews/10892606/Trojan-Horse-debate-We-were-wrong-all-cultures-are-not-equal.html

    • Damaris Tighe

      No I don’t think so. It’s ideas that make the difference. The ideas that govern Muslim countries are toxic.

      • zanzamander

        It is the culture that accepts, sustains or rejects the ideas, surely. We, for example, we would never as a society accept the idea misogyny, but plainly there are cultures that do.

      • global city

        But fundamental ideas shape culture, which reinforces the development and acceptance of further ideas.

        This is why it is as much madness for the UK to be jettisoning our ‘Common’ basis of law making to the Continental systems, just as much as it would be madness to hand over to Sharia…..oh, hang on, we’re ceding ground to both!

        • Damaris Tighe

          I couldn’t agree more.

    • Icebow

      But consider all the Mohammedan factories turning out computers, cars, firearms, etc., etc.. Their technological productivity is inestimable.

    • Kaine

      What? I think all the Abrahamic faiths are nuts, but can we at least wait until the Holocaust passes from living memory before we start talking about genetic superiority of Europeans again?

      • Kennybhoy

        “…but can we at least wait …”

        Well said.

  • jack

    Islamic schools do teach right from wrong and good from bad, it’s just that we kaffirs/infidels/dhimmis are wrong and bad.

    We are told of stiffer action against those who abuse children, particularly parents, and so this could be the golden opportunity to call Islamic religious indoctrination as a form of child abuse and therefore, to fall under the remit of child protection and social services.

    If we are smart enough to stamp out this sort of biased teachings early, then we may give a chance to the next generation to live in peace and harmony.If not, then just look at the grotesqueness of life through the eyes of a little non Muslim girl in Nigeria to peer into the future.

    • Damaris Tighe

      As I’ve said on other threads, unlike us muslims still believe in moral boundaries, it’s just that they’re in the wrong places. This is a culture war & we’ll only win if we grow a pair & refind our own moral boundaries. This country’s Christian culture would be a good place to start.

      • Kennybhoy

        This is well said. We have to recognize your enemy’s genuine strengths and virtues and your own weaknesses and sins if you are to effectively counter him.

        I wrote above that all the Queen’s horses and men will be of little use without will and stamina and stomach for the fight but you have taken this to an even more profound level.

        Respect. Sorry. God bless you…

        • Damaris Tighe

          I’ve been getting some flack for suggesting that we need to look at our own culture! Where there is a moral vacuum Islam or something like it will fill it. Witness the ever more frequent conversion of native problem kids to Islam. When it comes to showing them behavioural boundaries Islam is often the only show in town. Trouble is their boundaries are in all the wrong places, but how would these kids know? The only things they’ve seen in life are absent fathers, multiple step-fathers & ‘uncles’ & drugs. Islam lifts them out of this chaos.

          • Kennybhoy

            Amen.

          • Kennybhoy

            It is an infection feeding on a self-inflicted wound…

          • Kennybhoy

            “I’ve been getting some flack for suggesting that we need to look at our own culture!”

            Ignore them and keep fighting the good fight!

      • Kennybhoy

        Recessional

        God of our fathers, known of old—
        Lord of our far-flung battle line—
        Beneath whose awful hand we hold
        Dominion over palm and pine—
        Lord God of Hosts, be with us yet,
        Lest we forget—lest we forget!

        The tumult and the shouting dies—
        The Captains and the Kings depart—
        Still stands Thine ancient sacrifice,
        An humble and a contrite heart.
        Lord God of Hosts, be with us yet,
        Lest we forget—lest we forget!

        Far-called our navies melt away—
        On dune and headland sinks the fire—
        Lo, all our pomp of yesterday
        Is one with Nineveh and Tyre!
        Judge of the Nations, spare us yet,
        Lest we forget—lest we forget!

        If, drunk with sight of power, we loose
        Wild tongues that have not Thee in awe—
        Such boastings as the Gentiles use,
        Or lesser breeds without the Law—
        Lord God of Hosts, be with us yet,
        Lest we forget—lest we forget!

        For heathen heart that puts her trust
        In reeking tube and iron shard—
        All valiant dust that builds on dust,
        And guarding calls not Thee to guard.
        For frantic boast and foolish word,
        Thy Mercy on Thy People, Lord!
        Amen.

        Rudyard Kipling

        • Jackthesmilingblack

          Keep the poems to four lines, huh?

          • Kennybhoy

            Hi Troll!

            I do actually like haiku but I cannae for the life of me think of a relevant example here…?

      • Kennybhoy

        O God of earth and altar,
        bow down and hear our cry,
        our earthly rulers falter,
        our people drift and die;
        the walls of gold entomb us,
        the swords of scorn divide,
        take not thy thunder from us,
        but take away our pride.

        From all that terror teaches,
        from lies of tongue and pen,
        from all the easy speeches
        that comfort cruel men,
        from sale and profanation
        of honor, and the sword,
        from sleep and from damnation,
        deliver us, good Lord!

        Tie in a living tether
        the prince and priest and thrall,
        bind all our lives together,
        smite us and save us all;
        in ire and exultation
        aflame with faith, and free,
        lift up a living nation,
        a single sword to thee.

        Gilbert Keith Chesterton, 1906

        • Kitty MLB

          Indeed it was the gentleman himself. Thank you.

      • Kaine

        Except an ever decreasing number of people believe the stuff. Moreover, the answer to one imported Abrahamic creed is not to turn to another.

        Social democracy would be a better option.

        • Kennybhoy

          Social democracy disnae stand a snowball’s chance in Hell agin’ political or religous extrmism.

          • Kaine

            And a creed that preaches for people to love their enemies and pray for those who persecute them does?

        • Damaris Tighe

          social democracy grew out of the ethics of the Abrahamic creed (at least, the judeo-christian interpretation of it): justice, defence of the poor, the widowed & the orphan, etc etc.

          • Kaine

            Nonsense. First, those very ideas you cite are also in Islam, and many other religions and philosophies, several of which predate Christianity. Second, even if Christianity was the mulch in which these ideas germinated, the very fact we ‘grew out’ of the iinterpretation demonstrates its atavism.

            We dropped the nonsense parts of the Bible and kept the good ones. We’re not good because of Christianity, Rather any good in Christianity is because of us.

          • Damaris Tighe

            they come ultimately from the hebrew prophets which predate Christianity & Islam. They are originally Jewish teachings.This is accepted by Christians but not by Muslims because in their usual totalitarian way they say the hebrew prophets were Muslim.

          • Kaine

            Christians say Jesus is Yahweh, it’s no different.

            And no, notions of justice such as we understand them go back to at least Hammurabi. “To uphold the rule of righteousness in the land so that the strong should not harm the weak”. It was from the Mesopotamian civilisations that the Jews got the vast bulk of their fables.

          • Damaris Tighe

            if you do a bit of research into Hammurabi you will find that his ‘justice’ was for the rich, not the poor. The Jews pioneered justice for the weak. Hitler know this – it was one of the reasons he hated them.

  • Damaris Tighe

    Douglas has made a point that I’ve also hammered on about in other threads (but not so eloquently): we’re disarmed from countering Islam, a religion of boundaries but in all the wrong places, because our culture no longer has many boundaries of its own. At the end of the day values are what you’re prepared to die for (think WW2). I wonder how many are prepared to die for ‘diversity’, ‘inclusion’ , indeed the whole pc lexicon that passes for British values in 2014. I also suspect that when a society’s values have to be consciously thought about & taught, they’re already lost.

    • roger

      Fighting on the right front.
      In WW2 Britain got the war on the home front sorted out ( though it had a problem telling a nazi from a refugee from nazism) and had armies fighting on clear foreign fronts. The new ‘nazism’ needs to be fought at home first, rather than in a distant desert or mountain region. One interesting sideline of WW2 was the education corps course (with booklets) ‘British Way and Purpose’, though they need a serious rewrite. Get the consolidated edition on Amazon.

      • Damaris Tighe

        I doubt we are capable of fighting a major war on a foreign front any more as the home front is so compromised. I’m sure the left loves this. Rubbing our noses in diversity also has the ‘benefit’ of destroying national cohesion.

        • Kennybhoy

          “…the home front is so compromised.”

          Indeed. Without will and purpose and stamina and a willingness to accept ineviatble casualties then all the Queen’s horses and men are of little use…

          For the record though. This phenomenon is much older than you appear to think and is not entirely to be laid at the door of “the left”….

          • Damaris Tighe

            I stand corrected. I despair of what passes for the ‘right’ in this country. Until UKIP appeared on the scene we either had Tory wimps (excepting Thatcher’s leadership in the Falklands conflict) or the BNP. And UKIP are silent when it comes to Islam – can’t say I blame them, Farage has a young family. Look what happened to Tommy Robinson’s family – threats of beheading etc.

          • Alexsandr

            UKIP will comment on Islam when it has become embedded. It is too young to rock that boat yet. But I think comment will lead the politicians on this.

          • Damaris Tighe

            I hope you’re right.

        • Kaine

          By ‘the left’ do you mean those who have argued for decades for communal structures and solidarity rather than the desiccated individualism of “I’m alright Jack”? The ones who’ve fought to preserve the social democratic consensus the wartime generation voted for?

          • Damaris Tighe

            Perhaps I should have said ‘modern left’, ie, new labour.

      • Kennybhoy

        “…fought at home first…”

        Not first. Simultaneously.

    • Liz

      Britain fought two world wars to defend its imperial territorial and financial interests. The only value it was fighting for was completely mercenary. Though of course the propaganda said it was to defend the weak against the bogeymen.

      • Tom Allalone

        Then why didn’t we make peace in 1940? Typical far leftwinger, spewing hatred and bile on people who fought and died for freedom, including your right to talk boll*cks

  • zanzamander

    BBC, in typical style, deflects the issue by pointing at Christian schools and asking “Well, what about these horrible Christian fundies?”.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-27681560

    You’ve got to hand it to these dhimmis, always predictable.

    BBC Radio 2’s Jeremy Vine Show will have more on the subject at 13:00 BST on Thursday 12 June. So get ready folks, get in touch.

    • itbeso

      Don’t see why we shouldn’t sweep them up while we’re at it. There are some very nasty ideologies buying into this Free Faith school experiment.

      • Kennybhoy

        Examples…?

    • Kennybhoy

      Not sure I entirely agree here man. I have observed what you describe but there seems to be some genuine divergence within BBC coverage. This incident might just have been some sort of limited wake up call for many bien-pensants…

      Nonetheless…

      Ceterum censeo BBC esse delendam!

  • itbeso

    “Yet still the Birmingham case has shocked everyone. Perhaps it is because the schools in question are not private schools or Gove’s academies.”

    Umm wrong. Four of the five schools in special measures, and to have their funding agreement withdrawn, are indeed Academies. The other 20 schools involved were not Academies.

  • Peter Stroud

    I remember that as long ago as twenty years, discussing with colleagues, the problems brought in by Muslims. The general consensus then was that the policy of multiculturalism was the root cause. The common complaint was, that we ordinary folk, were never asked to approve such a policy. Furthermore, no political party had, as far as we could remember even explained what was meant by multiculturalism. However, no sensible person would have believed, that the policy could have led to virtually parallel societies in some of our towns. Yet that is what has occurred. How long will it be before an adulterous woman is stoned to death, in an English city?

    • Damaris Tighe

      In the mid 80s a businessman told me that when doing business with asians there was no problem with hindus but with muslims … at this point he looked pained. In the 80s we knew nothing about the differences between asian communities, we lumped them together, so I was very interested & quite taken aback by his comment. Of course dishonesty is practiced by people of all religions & races, but if this man’s comment reflected a truth maybe it is because some muslims view kaffirs as fair game in the same way they view non-muslim girls as easy meat.

      • Fasdunkle

        lots of cash transactions amongst certain people

      • Julieann Carter

        Same with multiple ISA’s (swapping first & last names around, to suit – though claimed as ‘cultural practise’); and, taking out interest free – with term & conditions as usual, but refusing to pay balance due at end of agreement, on cultural grounds.

        • Porphyrogenitos

          Do they actually get away with refusing to pay the balance of the mortgage off at the end of the agreement?

      • Apaliteno

        Not too sure about that. The hilarious Malay saying which references snakes and Indians must have been based on their interaction with Hindus, for the most part.

        • Damaris Tighe

          Well, the trouble is we often view the ‘other’ as the dishonest one: sometimes the stereotype is accurate, sometimes it isn’t.

    • Shazza

      Multiculturalism is a euphemism for separate development
      Separate development is a euphemism for apartheid.

    • Kennybhoy

      “The general consensus then was that the policy of multiculturalism was the root cause.”

      Indeed. For the record. I am not anti-immigration. I am in the minority hereabouts in that I genuinely would like to see Britain become more like the United States. But immigration absent assimilation is simply a species of colonization or invasion. The multicultural ideology is the main problem.

    • James Lovelace

      “The general consensus then was that the policy of multiculturalism was the root cause. ”

      Multiculturalism was rolled out AFTER the Rushdie Affair. Prior to that, all mention of multiculturalism in English referred to books/articles about Canada (where multiculti meant the equalisation of French/English cultures in Canada).

  • Ostercy

    Rabble roused. See comments below.

    • Caramel Abdul Jizzbar

      You comment a lot on these pages, but never once have I seen you argue a point. You simply say “you’re wrong” with various snarky phrases.

      You can do better, I’m sure.

      • Fasdunkle

        I am not sure he can do better

        • EnglandLaments

          Nor am I. He is a Sheffield leftie, so will have had the obligatory frontal lobotomy.

      • Ostercy

        It’s impossible to “do better” as you say when trying to argue people out of prejudice. It’s a faith thing unassailable by mere fact in my experience. Nobody here, not even the author, has waited for the final Ofsted report or for the completion of the various investigations. Tarring all Muslims with the same brush and conflating bits and pieces of hearsay into a “case” is all one sees around these parts. People won’t even admit the Trojan Horse Plot was a fake or that other faiths have the same type of so-called “indoctrination”. I see nobody criticising, for example, homophobic racist violent evangelical creationist Christians (see Lord’s Resistance Army) for example. So please go lecture someone else.

        • EnglandLaments

          Hmmm. So just how widespread is the “Lord’s Resistance Army”? How many ghettos full of people who adhere to the “Lord’s Resistance Army” are there in our cities? How many state schools have been taken over by the “Lord’s Resistance Army” for the brain washing of young minds?
          Answers on a postcard please!

          • http://t.co/rXjomKpfUv JP Janson De Couet

            If you have comparative figures for numbers of people taught by Evangelicals versus numbers of people taught by Muslims for the UK I’d be fascinated to see them.

          • EnglandLaments

            I have no idea, but the scandal is not about individual teachers, but the management of whole schools to promote a particular ideology. It is apparent that some state schools in Birmingham have been used to promote Islamic values which are incompatible with the ethos, culture and values which should predominate.

          • James Lovelace

            No evangelical group in Britain, with a policy of exterminating homosexuals, subjugating non-christians, etc. ever held a gathering where they filled a football stadium.

            http://www.newstatesman.com/node/152440

        • Caramel Abdul Jizzbar

          If you don’t want to be “lectured” (disagreed with, in other words), don’t write comments in the comment section!

          No one here is talking about “homophobic racist violent evangelical creationist Christians” because this article doesn’t happen to be about homophobic racist violent evangelical creationist Christians, it happens to be about islam.

          And your “faith thing is unassailable by mere fact” argument is a pathetic Get Out of Jail Free card religious people are always trying to pawn off to escape criticism.

          • http://t.co/rXjomKpfUv JP Janson De Couet

            Given that no answer or comment that I’ve given you has satisfied you, I’m rather inclined to stop trying. (Mostly out of boredom.)

          • Caramel Abdul Jizzbar

            Slink away, then, god boy.

          • http://t.co/rXjomKpfUv JP Janson De Couet

            Interesting choice of last word.

        • Fasdunkle

          “People won’t even admit the Trojan Horse Plot was a fake”

          The letter might have been however there was certainly a concerted effort to islamise the schools

          • http://t.co/rXjomKpfUv JP Janson De Couet

            Is that a guess or do you have any proof?

          • Fasdunkle

            I have already told you – the Telegraph detailed conversations on a website between various of the protagonists.

          • http://t.co/rXjomKpfUv JP Janson De Couet

            That doesn’t even remotely count as proof of anything in my opinion.

          • Fasdunkle

            So people from the schools discussing their islamisation plan is no proof at all? Okey dokey

          • http://t.co/rXjomKpfUv JP Janson De Couet
          • Fasdunkle

            It is interesting that a few have failed to grasp what the cover image means – probably a symptom of their own islamophobia

          • vieuxceps2

            Proof? Have you ? Re the letter I mean?

        • Fasdunkle

          “I see nobody criticising, for example, homophobic racist violet evangelical creationist Christians (see Lord’s Resistance Army) for example”

          They have been widely criticised in many articles both ATL and BTL. Religion isn’t like advertising on the BBC – every article about a religion and it’s acolytes doesn’t need a “other extremist religions are available” caveat

          • http://t.co/rXjomKpfUv JP Janson De Couet

            The basis of the article is that there is a country-wide (world-wide?) islamist plot. You can make an equally facile case against Christians. Do that help explain my point?

          • Fasdunkle

            You should spend some time on islamic messageboards – plenty of them think there is a country/world wide islamist plot – they will even provide all the source materials if you ask nicely.

            Personally I don’t think there is a plot other than the feeble efforts of the muslim brotherhood – just lots of dodgy people and a large amount of foreign funding of the worst strains of islam

          • vieuxceps2

            No it do not

        • Damaris Tighe

          Here we go, more false equivalence. The LRA is a localised animist group with a bit of Christianity thrown in. It is NOT an international movement of world domination which has been ticking over for 1400 years. Why is the left utterly unable to make distinctions?

        • Lamia

          The Lords Resistance Army aren’t operating in Birmingham, in case you hadn’t noticed.

          Meanwhile, Birmingham has produced a number of Islamist terrorists – including ones who shopped at the extremist bookshop run by the brother (since convicted of terrorism) of deputy head teacher Razwan Faraz, who until recently ran an ‘activist’ e-mail group of Birmingham teachers and school governors which plotted an “Islamising agenda” (Faraz’s own words) of some of the Birmingham schools in the news:

          http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/educationopinion/10700041/Muslim-extremists-and-a-worrying-lesson-for-us-all.html

          • http://t.co/rXjomKpfUv JP Janson De Couet

            So was shopping at a bookshop the terrorist act, or did reading the books make him into a “terrorist”?

            By the way that article you cite is by the blithering idiot Gilligan who started the whole Trojan Horse hoax in the first place. Round and round in circles.

          • Fasdunkle

            Being a terrorist made them a terrorist.

            Are you saying the quotes Gilligan has provided are made up?

          • http://t.co/rXjomKpfUv JP Janson De Couet

            Who knows? However the story is a non-starter apparently, so he’s either wrong, quoting out of context, quoting the wrong people or he’s been taken for a ride.

          • Fasdunkle

            What makes you think the story is a non starter when the evidence suggest otherwise?

          • http://t.co/rXjomKpfUv JP Janson De Couet

            I hate to link to the Guardian (which I never read) but there are other sources if you use Google;
            http://www.theguardian.com/education/2014/jun/08/trojan-horse-extremism-political-storm-michael-gove-ofsted

          • Fasdunkle

            yes, the guardian is very keen to pretend it is all a lie

        • vieuxceps2

          How do you know the Trojan Horse letter WAS a fake? Did your dad send it?

          • http://t.co/rXjomKpfUv JP Janson De Couet

            Why aren’t you watching the football? Do you hate Britain?

  • JB_1966

    No Douglas, these finding haven’t “shocked everyone”. Many, many people have known about this for a couple of decades.

  • Jackthesmilingblack

    Finally smelling up and waking the coffee, Britisher pals? When the next General Election rolls around, keep in mind which political party that facilitated the mass immigration of radical Islamic extremists and fast-tracked their passage to citizenship. Now I`m not saying “vote Conservative”, “vote Liberal” or “vote UKIP”, all I`m saying is DON`T VOTE LABOUR.
    Jack, Japan Alps

    • Kennybhoy

      Stop making sensible comments ya troll. I hate having to vote you up.

    • George Smiley

      Why?! Why is vote Con or vote Lib is any more acceptable?!

      What kind of a sitting of the fence is this?! Look, you are never British for a single second in your life, and you don’t actually know half of what you are talking about; certainly not about British politics! Butt out!

  • Fasdunkle

    Where did this guy get his ideas from

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FgUX9A-gSjg

  • EnglandLaments

    Islam is an exclusive creed which believe in the abolition of all “false doctrines” (i.e. other faiths). The following link is of interest:

    http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/quran/023-violence.htm
    – that is what we have to deal with. Wherever Islam reaches a critical mass in any population, conflict is the result.

  • Caramel Abdul Jizzbar

    Islam is the bully at school who punches you in the face and then cries to Mama that nobody likes him.

    • MissDemeanor

      how true

    • James Lovelace

      “Islam is the bully at school who punches you in the face and then cries to Mama that nobody likes him.”

      That is basically a summary of The Life of Mohammed. He spent 13 years berating and denigrating the patient pagan Meccans. When they’d finally had enough of this, they sought to get rid of him. Muslims claim Mohammed was the victim.

      But muslims denigrate (and murder) the followers of other religions. The followers of those other religions are never permitted to claim they are the victims of muslims.

      • Kamil Hussain

        The Prophet peace be upon him, taught us that its haram to burn a flag belonging to another nation as it will cite unnecessary hatred amongst people.

        So what makes you think killing innocents is ok for muslims? And please don’t generalise.

        • Sage Ham

          The Prophet is is prick. That is as specific as can be

  • ant

    It is time the debate turned to what is a moderate muslim, and those prominent adherents to the ‘religion of peace’ stop bleating at any and every criticism of their, at times, barbarous creed, and take a long hard look at it, themselves and their communities. Maybe then they would grow up and embrace apostasy, and yes, ‘islamophobia’

    • Fasdunkle

      I know plenty of moderate muslims who have no truck with all the rabble rousing and extremism. However I also knew some moderates who became anything but. I equate it with the happy clappy christian brigade at university which everybody used to warn you about – I lost a good friend to them – he was notionally christian, went through a bad patch and the happy clappy lot were only too happy to use that. However we aren’t dealing with a few nutters on campus – we are dealing with entire areas of towns and cities with mosques everywhere – with “More pious than you” characters looking down on others – building up a self fulfilling victim hood and using it to play identity politics.

      • Damaris Tighe

        And silly as the happy clappies are they don’t advocate the stoning of ‘adulteresses’, the murder of apostates, & the killing of jews ‘wherever you find them’.

  • Emilia

    Only the chattering classes could have been surprised or shocked at what was revealed in Birmingham. Anyone who has been to Bradford in the past 30 years will smile bitterly. It would help if they were made to conform with British laws and social norms – not having their faces covered in public when the rest of us are unfairly discriminated against by being watched by CCTV, not being able to leave out chunks of the National Curriculum because music, art and theatre don’t suit them, not being able to have – and get benefits for – more than one wife etc. Successive governments have encouraged them to import their alien customs wholesale, and our leaders are now, too late, discovering that they made a grave mistake. Nothing will persuade them to integrate – they are forbidden from doing so by their holy book – and it would be a big step if politicians realised this instead of making weedy remarks about it.

    • Damaris Tighe

      I’ve been giving a lot of thought to what does constitute British values nowadays & your post has reminded me that we still place a lot of importance on seeing the face, in other words, on being face-to-face. Being able to look each other in the eye is basic to equality.

    • global city

      Ignorance, wishful thinking, dogmatic stupidity, crushing self hate and guilt, twisted logic and accepting points on an article of faith basis have always been the downfall of the stupid left/liberal-progressive.

    • James Lovelace

      “Anyone who has been to Bradford in the past 30 years will smile bitterly. ”

      It was 1995 when the UK government gave Barnardo’s £700k to look after the victims of muslim grooming gangs in Bradford.

      It wasn’t until 2010 that the UK government began any kind of significant prosecutions of these gangs. LibLabCon, school teachers, social workers, the media… all looked the other way for more than 20 years. They attacked those who spoke out about the gangs, yet did nothing but enable the gangs’ activities. There are estimated to be 10,000 schoolgirl victims, according to the only charity which focused on this kind of crime.

      It’s all documented in meticulous detail in this book:
      http://www.scribd.com/doc/211485752/Easy-Meat-Multiculturalism-Islam-and-Child-Sex-Slavery

  • mandelson

    Stop all muslim immigration now.

    • Nationalist Sex

      Correction: Stop all Muslim immigration, and then reverse the immigration that’s already happened.

    • http://www.londonschoolofislamics.org.uk IftikharA

      The Tsunami of the West made the children of Muslim immigrants Muslims. I see Muslim teenagers girls in Burqa and in hijab while their mothers never covered themselves in Pakistan.

      when Brits colonised the sub-continent and beyond they enforced
      their system on to the locals, side lining their religious practices and tribal
      systems. In India and Africa the Brits behaved like dictators and enforced a
      White Christian, UK bigotry on the locals, often by second rate Britishers who
      has failed at home. You could say we are now getting a taste of our own medicine ?

      • mandelson

        OK so you have a chip the size of a Koran on your shoulder. We get it.

    • http://www.londonschoolofislamics.org.uk IftikharA

      Without immigration, British society and economy would bleed
      to death. Immigration is a
      good thing. My main left artery was repaired by two Profs, one from Holland and
      one from Italy. The road is being repaired by lads from Armenia. The
      strawberries and fruit and veg counter are picked by summer migrants and as they
      pile up in the loading bay get driven away by British hauliers to British shops
      to be bought by British people. The immigrants plugging these little holes more
      than pay for themselves in multiplier effects on economic activity. Skills they
      learn here they take back to their homelands, who, if keen to keep skilled folk,
      would crack down on corruption and stop harassing small traders and people
      trying to make a living. The UK should be prouder, fearless and more welcoming.
      the Conservatives must lose their “perceived” hostility to immigration. They are
      the Party of the “Free Market”. to oppose the free movement of people is
      hypocritical. Multiculturalism has been around in these islands at least since
      the Anles, Jutes and Saxons came over and displaced the Celts. That was about
      2000 years ago. Between then and 1950 immigration was slow. Since then it has
      become massive.

      Multiculturalism means different cultures living side by
      side, separately. We live in a multicultural world of mono-cultural countries.
      If only England becomes multicultural and other countries don’t, then the result
      will be a less multicultural world. Right next to the Over ground Station, a
      peek inside the Railway Tavern pub will reveal white locals in the front, black
      locals in the back room. This segregation is self-enforced; both parties seem to
      prefer it that way. The sight of such retailed segregation is uncomfortable, and
      off-putting. It inevitably reminded me of the ”separate but equal” facilities of
      late-Jim Crow 60s America.

      Many comments claim that the immigrants don’t
      integrate. Aside from the little interactions mentioned, how can integration
      occur? Doesn’t it need to be 2-way? How many of us are pleased to accept
      hospitality and gifts of exotic dishes offered by the ‘immigrants’ and yet don’t
      reciprocate? Difficult to have a truly ‘multicultural’ society when the core
      belief of many of those who inhabit one of those cultures is that all the others
      should be eradicated.

      Speaking English does not promote integration into
      British, American and Australian societies, and broaden opportunities. English
      speaking Muslim youths are angry, frustrated and extremist, thanks to state
      schools with monolingual non-Muslim teachers and English language. English
      language is not only a lingua franca but also lingua frankensteinia. Human right
      are also covers linguistic right. Cultural and linguistic genocide are very
      common. British schooling is murdering community languages like Arabic, Urdu and
      others. English is today the world killer language. Linguistic genocide is a
      crime against humanity and British schooling is guilty of committing this crime.
      Language is not just a language. It defines one’s culture, identity and
      consciousness. It defines how we think, communicate and express ourselves. The
      fact is the most South Asian Muslims have come to know Islam by way of Urdu, the
      children’s alienation from the language that connects them the heritage of their
      parents and grandparents is disturbing. As a matter of fact, one has to get to
      know his mother tongue well if one is to master any other
      language.
      IA
      London School of Islamics Trust

      • mandelson

        Strange, Japan does quite well as a monoculture or do you pity them? I assume you believe in democracy – when were the British people asked if they wanted your multiculti paradise?

      • mohdanga

        Why do Muslims come here? If Britain is so racist and bigoted surely they would be better off in the Muslim utopias they came from?

        • http://www.londonschoolofislamics.org.uk IftikharA

          The whole world belongs to Muslims. A Muslim is a citizen of this tiny global village. They are here because their skills are needed by the British society and economy.

          thought Gove wanted parents to be in charge of their schools. Isn’t that what
          free schools and academies are all about? Isn’t Gove Secretary of State for
          Education? Has Gove sent inspectors to root out anti-abortionist and homophobia
          in Catholic or evangelical-sponsored schools, or cultural isolation in mainly
          white schools where racism is rife? ” Now the schools inspector Ofsted,
          transparently under political direction, has done what was expected of it.” Not
          only incompetent but also dishonest. All conspiracy theories depend upon an
          accusation of dishonesty including this one. On balance this accusation seems no
          more likely than the one about the Moon landing. Gove’s discriminatory attack
          against the Muslim Schools has 2 targeted audience, those Tory UKIP’s for the
          next Tory leadership contest and those moneyed interests who were the real
          masters controlling our politicians, who waged wars in Muslim countries
          including Iraq, Libya, Afghanistan – Gove will be in need of fat directorships
          from the wealthy benefactors when Tory lost the next election. Attack against
          Muslims proves his allegiance and can be offered up as proof as a loyal
          servant’s credential as their attack dog.

          IA

          • mohdanga

            75% of Muslim women in Britain and 50% of the men are unemployed, hardly a case that Britain somehow needs Muslim spongers.
            http://pamelageller.com/2013/07/uk-53-of-muslim-men-dont-work-infidels-support-them.html/
            And if the whole world belongs to Muslims then it certainly belongs to white Christians who should be able to migrate to Muslim countries and expect the Muslims to cater to them, pay for them and allow them to practice their customs unabated and with no regard for the locals, no?

  • Nationalist Sex

    Weak. In recent months, Douglas, you’ve become pathetically Liberal with your narrative.

    Let’s call this what is is: Islamism infiltrating every level of England. And as the Muslim population grows, its going to get hugely worse, fast.

    Islamism is now invading our children’s lives. Islamism has infiltrated the highest levels of politics (Sayeed Warsi, Sadiq Khan). Islam has infiltrated our media. And Islam has now taken over entire towns and regions. It will not stop.

    This isn’t some foggy battle against ‘extremism’. The Muslims involved in Trojan Horse etc are NOT extremists; they’re normal Muslims. They’re doing what Muslims do once they become numerous enough. And NOTHING can stop this now, except a few ways that are obvious to the majority of native people, but can’t be said because we don’t have free speech anymore.

    • Kaine

      The only thing you’re not allowed to do is incite violence contrary to the Queen’s Peace, which you’ve never been allowed to do.

      • James Lovelace

        There are people who were given 10 year banning orders, preventing them from going to political demonstrations.

        EDL never incited violence, but were banned from demonstations in several London boroughs.

        As for “freedom of speech”, if Labour had their way in 2005, there would have been no freedom of speech proviso in the “Religious Hatred Act”. It was the fusty old House of Lords who insisted (again and again) that that proviso must be in the Act.

        • Kaine

          Marching is not speaking. Banning marches has been part of English law for centuries. Riot Act ring a bell?

          • James Lovelace

            I didn’t say marching was speaking.

            I went on to point out that the fascist Labour party came within a hair’s breadth of a law which would have banned all criticism of islam.

            I would have thought that “As for freedom of speech…” would have indicated that that was where I was talking about said subject.

            Mind you, if demonstrations are banned, then people are not going to be free to speak to that section of the population.

          • Kaine

            Forgive me for assuming that your answer would be at least tangentially related to the matter at hand, rather than general whining on behalf of the EDL.

            Even if we accept your conspiratorial view of the Bill, these are hypotheticals. The OP is talking about the situation now.

  • Nationalist Sex

    British values aren’t some abstract thing that can be decided. They were set thousands of years ago.

    These are British values and British identity:

    *Obviously, being actually British entails being White, as it has done for literally thousands of years

    *Winston Churchill, Enoch Powell

    *Sunday Dinner, cup of tea, fish n chips

    *Absolute free speech (now illegal due to foreigners)

    *Patriotism, Nationalism (it was a Nationalist Britain that won World War II)

    *Politeness, manners

    *Eccentricity, intelligence

    *Shakespeare, art, literature

    *Our proud history of Empire

    *Community (now destroyed due to immigration and multiculturalism)

    These are just the basic British values and identity. There’s many more things

    • Damaris Tighe

      But most of this has been destroyed. What happened to politeness & manners? Shakespeare – taught in short gobbets so as not to tax pupils, sorry ‘students’, too much. Churchill, Powell – you can be hauled before the beak for quoting them. Free speech – as you say, gone. Intelligence – our schools are way down the international tables. You should have added law-abiding (that’s a laugh). All destroyed by the modern left. We need a cultural revolution.

      • LunarCity7

        Recent shifts in thought and voting patterns certainly suggest that the winds are potentially changing in the direction of patriotism. It’s an uphill struggle, but it’s one at which we who’ve been silenced for so long are at least now beginning to openly work.

      • Kaine

        I’ve just listened to Powell’s speeches on YouTube (he’s wrong but entertainingly so). No one’s come knocking at my door.

      • Liz

        Not like in the old days when women and poor people were kept deliberately uneducated and illiterate.

    • Kennybhoy

      “*Obviously, being actually British entails being White, as it has done for literally thousands of years”

      You are as bad as the Jihadis…

    • Kaine

      Of course. I often look out on the vast tea fields of Yorkshire. It was very good of us to introduce the Chinese to the substance.

      • Nationalist Sex

        Poor attempt, Kaine, darling. Poor.

    • Liz

      Groping, paedophilia, perving at “boobs”, laddism, sexist “banter”, chauvenism, boorishness, old queens, battery and assault, drinking, taking copious amounts of drugs, smoking, littering, ram-raiding, car stealing, fathering children by different mothers, halitosis, obesity, toupes, shortness, bad dress sense, shaved heads, tattoos, gold teeth, earrings on men, three quarter length shorts, pig ignorance.

      • Nationalist Sex

        That’s more black racial culture, to be honest, Liz

      • S1999

        This is Islamic ‘culture’ to a t!

  • Damaris Tighe

    Isn’t it good that we can at last talk about this! Our political masters have lost control of the narrative!

  • Gwangi

    What I find so bizarre is how the left and the pc diversity-worshipping mob (on all sides of the political spectrum) bend over backwards to pander to any immigrant to the UK so they can replicate the cultures and value systems that existed in the countries they left, escaped and abandoned to come to a civilised country in The West. What the F is the point of that? Immigrants come here to get away from all that backwards nonsense, not to replicate Pakistani village Islamo-fascism here!

    The West should not adapt AT ALL to immigrants. We should defend and assert our values, and not be afraid to tell people and their supporters (usually white metro so-called ‘liberals’) that people have to abide by our values and traditions in our country – or leave.

    Because surely it is racist and discriminatory to allow and promote different value systems for people from different cultures with different skin colours? One set of values for everyon. Anything else is racist – and promoted endlessly by the BBC, the education system and others.

    France has it right. Integrate to OUR values. Multiculturalism as an ideology creates division and segregation. It has failed and should be discarded for the counterproductive ideology it has proven itself to be.
    Didn’t Trevor Phillips say something similar a few years ago (despite the fact that people like me who have been saying it for 2 decades or more were and are always accused of racism for espousing this non-racist integrationist ideology).

    • Fasdunkle

      “France has it right. Integrate to OUR values”

      unless you live in one of the many no go areas in which case do as you like

    • Ted Cunterblast

      It’s important to keep in mind that what we’re dealing isn’t immigration, but colonisation. African and Asian settlers replicate the cultures of their home countries because they are colonists–not immigrants.

      Let’s look at recent colonial history. In Africa and Asia, note that what the native populations ultimately used to expel British and European settlers wasn’t debate and legislation, but armed liberation struggles. I’m afraid the native populations of the West will be forced to use similar means to liberate our nations from the MultiKult.

      • Damaris Tighe

        spot on

      • Sage Ham

        I am not white but I completely agree with you. the only thing I will says is that there are a huge number of minorities escaping the Muslim and Hindu racist and fanatical juggernaut. In you abject capitulation, you destroy the rest – like the Copts, Armeniens, Syrian Christians, Lebanese, Kerala and Indian Christians, Tribals, Whites in Kenya/South Africa

    • Nationalist Sex

      Its a very aggressive social cancer.

    • http://www.londonschoolofislamics.org.uk IftikharA

      Trevor Phillips is an underdog of the British society, inspite of adopting all the goodies and badies of the British Values.

    • James Lovelace

      “France has it right. Integrate to OUR values.”

      The local politicians in Marseilles (40% muslim) want to have the city run under martial law.

      The French have deluded themselves by pushing muslims out into the suburbs. Cities like Paris are encircled by hostile immigrants. The police and fire service don’t go into those areas without permission from the local gangs. The police conduct briefing sessions in hallways, when the muslim police officers are not around.

      Every so often, the muslim youths will torch 1,000 cars in 1 night. The French media are forbidden from reporting on this. Today, muslim gunmen rode up to a Parisian synagogue – they were only deterred by the armed police stationed outside it.

      The civil war will start in France, within the next decade.

  • Nationalist Sex

    Regarding accompanying View From 22 vid:

    Why, Spectator, in the name of Gandalf’s beard do you give the blatantly mentally ill Marxist, Matthew Parris, a platform?

  • M P Jones

    So, I’m just wondering how Muslims in this country would react if we told them: you either renounce your political ideology, hostile to everything we hold dear, and declare yourself secular – or we lop your head off.

    Or is that an alternative only acceptable in Muslim countries?

    • Amgine

      The UK isn’t a secular country. If we have faith schools then we can have Muslim schools as well as RC or C of E schools. And, I guess, we can have Scientology and Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster schools too.

      • Alexsandr

        yes. but they must teach the full curriculum, not some narrow education defined by nutters with imaginary friends.

        • Amgine

          Agreed. And we need to work towards no religious order running any school or statutory service.

  • vieuxceps2

    Just a thought, does anyone have any information on the ethnic makeup of staff in Ofsted?

  • Joanne

    Parris is wrong on one point: you do need to teach “British values.” Or maybe one could call them something else. If people are to live and participate in the same polity, they have to share some values in common, at least regarding basic political institutions and the country’s philosophical/intellectual/political heritage.

    Parris is against “indoctrinating,” and says that children will resist the message. I think that it would suffice to simply teaching the philosophy of liberal democracy and how it evolved, without being heavy-handed about it. And the matter could be opened up to debate in the classroom.

    Teaching isn’t the same as indoctrinating. It all depends on how it’s done. And Murray has a point when he says that, for someone coming from a developing country who is not at all familiar with British culture will have to be taught the fundamentals, as you can’t assume that he/she will understand them.

    Parris asks “what is British culture?” Even in all its diversity, there is a British political culture that is distinct from other cultures in the world. Parris is probably so immersed in it that he doesn’t see it, or takes it for granted.

    That reminds me of an anecdote I recently heard: There are two young fish swimming along. An older fish passing by says to them, “Isn’t the water delightful today!” One of the young fish turns to the other and asks, “What’s water?”

    • Porphyrogenitos

      Parris displays the typical self-loathing of British intellectual culture.

  • vieuxceps2

    Sorry to say that Matthew Parris appears to be entering his dotage.Some months ago he regaled his readers with his discovery of his age-related flatulence and in recent days he has told us all how to avoid our zip flies from opening by judicious use of a key-ring and his zip-pull.Interesting of course, but it does throw some light on his views about muslims in Birmingham’s schools.Are the three opinions connected do you think?

  • Terry Field

    THE GROTESQUELY ABSURD ‘GLORY IN THE DIFFERENCE’ FANTASY LAND OF NEW LABOUR HAS TOLD EVERY CULTURALLY ALIEN FRUITCAKE THAT BRITAIN WAS THE DREAM LAND WORLD WHERE THEY COULD DO PRETTY MUCH ANYTHING, AND IF THEY WENT WILD A PHALANX OF LEFTY PC COPPERS, COUNCILLORS, CIVIL SERVANTS MPS, TOGETHER WITH THE REST OF THE HANGERS – ON WOULD POOR OIL ON THE WATER THAY HAVE STIRRED UP.
    It is so criminal a set of policies that it is worth shouting from the rooftops about.

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    • Baron

      Listen, Oyiki, you need a psychiatrist, not a witchdoctor, quite urgently by the look of it.

    • S1999

      If you check Dudley mosque’s schedule for 2013, you will see that last summer they had a seminar there on how to exorcise demons (jinn). So you’re not too far off the mark.

  • Liz

    The most surprising thing for me about this situation has been that the government and ofsted oppose what’s happening in this particular schools. I was under the impression that this kind of localism would have been marked as outstanding. Did anyone seriously think that Muslim schools in Muslim areas teaching predominantly Muslim children would be something other than Muslim?

  • Picquet

    Oh dear. Let’s all wring our hands and whine in harmony. That’s what the politicians we have voted into office do; they must be right.

  • imnokuffar

    “Many Muslims came to this country precisely to leave their religion’s medievalists behind. It would be a tragedy if we stood by while their children — British children to whom we have a duty of care — were indoctrinated by a reconstituted version of that medievalism here.”

    I liked this article, however it is based on the premise that there are “radical Muslims” and “Moderate Muslims”. Now it is obvious that there are radical Muslims and they can be seen all over the place and there are radical Muslims who hide behind the facade of being moderate Muslims. These are in the media, the Police, Civil Service, government and Schools.

    Douglas seems to think that we owe these moderate Muslims and their children a duty of care. However this ignores the point that these moderates do absolutely nothing (with a few honorable exceptions) to counter those in their communities that preach radicalism. And apparently these moderates make up the majority of Muslims in this and other EU countries. The Muslims as a whole keep saying they are a cohesive community, that being the case then they must know what is going on within their communities. However they profess to know nothing about Muslim grooming, what is going on in the Trojan horse episodes, they knew nothing about the creatures that beheaded Lee Rigby, they knew nothing about those responsible for 7/7, they refuse to condemn Choudhary and his ilk and a significant majority of the young people whom we owe a duty of care want to impose Sharia Law etc.

    However each time these issues are bought up the instant response is the accusations of Islamophobia, Xenophobia, Racism etc etc. The Islamophiles such as Paris take this on board and treat it seriously while the ordinary working and middle class people look on with exasperation and increasing anger. Islamophiles do not have to live with the consequences of their own failed ideologies and revel in their liberal and smug way at the supposed ignorance of those who for whatever reasons do not trust or like Islam as an ideology.

    The reverse angle on this duty of care is that these moderates owe our country a duty of care. This is precisely because we allowed them to escape from their medieval shitholes and gave permission for them to settle in a civilised and democratic country.

    The truth of the matter is that Islam is fundamentally incompatible with western notions of democracy, rule of law and equal rights. This is becoming more and more obvious to increasing numbers of the Kuffar and even to some in government.

    It is just a matter of time before there is a mini civil war in this country or there are groups set up to unilaterally combat the Muslims by use of violence.

    Just wait till our Jihadis come back from Syria and the other conflict zones and start blowing us to bits.

  • Torybushhug

    A very mild liberal sounding teacher called into LBC Radio (Iain Dales show) on Wednesday evening recounting how the very young infant Muslim children in her London school constantly make remarks such as “people who wear that thing (a cross) are crazy minded, my Dad told me”, or “those girls (with short skirts) are evil” etc etc.
    Sounds as if religious intolerance might not be quite the minority fringe meme it’s painted to be by the hand wringers ever eager to brush things under the carpet.

    • Shazza

      Must be getting pretty crowded under that carpet.

    • anotherjoeblogs

      LBC cracks me up when iain dale, nick ‘ larry lamborghini ‘ ferrari and petri etc try to have reasonable conversations with our cultural enrichers.

  • http://www.londonschoolofislamics.org.uk IftikharA

    A
    secular school being turned into a faith school is not “extremism” or a “swamp”
    of full of infant terrorist “alligators”. It’s an unauthorised Muslim faith
    school. Nothing Ofsted have found seems to amount to anything more than that.
    The media seem to have got this completely out of proportion. Allowing pupils to
    pray at lunchtime if they wish to and wear the hijab if they choose to, or
    shortening the school day during the Ramadan fast – is an attempt to meet their
    spiritual needs as one tool to raise their achievement. Islam and Muslims are
    being criticised virtually every day by large sections of the media. There was a
    hysteria a few weeks ago over halal meat and now we have this. This is a witch
    hunt plain and simple.

    A Church
    of England school. Our kids pray in assemblies, they go to Eucharist regularly,
    they’re allowed and given opportunity to pray outside of class time whenever
    they want. They’re not allowed to wear jewellery, but religious medallions and
    bracelets are permitted. None of the above has fostered an atmosphere where
    students–or teachers–feel that they are pressurised or forced to pray, think
    or dress a certain way. Even though we’re a church school, we have a few Muslim
    students who wear the hijab, and our deputy head is Muslim. I’m an atheist, and
    make no bones in my science lessons that the Biblical story of creation is
    bollocks as a literal history.

    OFSTED
    inspects this school without government pressure and finds nothing of note. Then
    the government decides there’s an ‘extremism’ problem based on a letter widely
    considered to be a hoax (but let’s not mention that just in case it spoils our
    little fantasy) and all of a sudden the school is declared by OFSTED to be
    terrible, a bedrock of extremism… And we have a blatantly political move,
    using OFSTED to continue the policy of scapegoating Muslims while the elites
    carry on with business as usual. But the funniest thing is how so many avowed
    atheists, ‘rational’ secularists, immediately throw reason to the wayside and
    instead of dismissing this bit of cheap political manoeuvring for what it is,
    insist on treating it as something that must be taken seriously. Nobody’s ever
    called me on the carpet about it, or suggested I conform to the religious line.
    If a Christian school can do that, why shouldn’t a Muslim school be able to do
    the same? So how about his point that Ofsted came in once, made mild criticisms
    then one day came back behaving completely differently, after a letter
    (condemned by The Times as a hoax) had been discovered? Ofsted contradicted
    themselves. You’re happy with that? It is clearer now than ever before that
    OFSTED is no more than a government tool to further political objectives in
    classrooms.

    One can
    make one conclusion: These people went to schools twice to make assessment.
    First time they pronounced schools to be good. Second time they declared schools
    doing inadequately. What this clearly tells us is these people who are making
    assessment of schools are really either ass holes (they may be Sirs and Dames)
    or they are rewriting reports to please their master Gove in that case they are
    not professionals at all. When Ofsted did a report that didn’t make Gove happy,
    he told them to do another one. So which report is to be believed? The one done
    without government interference? Or the one done on the orders of a fascist nut?
    The pupils were exceptionally well behaved and respectful – an attitude fostered
    by their Muslim faith – and keen to take advantage of the opportunities the
    school provided

    Note the hypocrisy here; as long as
    OFSTED is giving the school good marks everything is fine, but as soon as the
    school is found wanting, it’s OFSTED that is the problem not the school. There’s
    so much wrong with what teachers are inculcating our kids with, from their
    dubious experiments in social engineering – everyone’s a winner etc, to their
    bizarre views on what constitutes appropriate education. One the hand they say
    they want children to have a childhood, but they do all they can to take it
    away. Why is it a twelve year old girl can be prescribed the contraceptive pill
    without the knowledge or consent of her parents? Why is it teachers are not
    legally obliged the abuse of children to the police? Why do ten year olds have
    to have training in homophobia? Ofsted found Park View School did not do enough
    to alert students to the risks of extremism. It said speakers invited to the
    school were not vetted and pupils were not taught about the safe use of the
    internet. Pupils are not given adequate preparation for living in a
    multi-cultural society, it said. What in particular were they referring to about
    ‘risks of extremism’; who were the ‘unvetted speakers’? What did they mean about
    ‘adequate preparation for living in a multi-cultural society’?

    Teachers
    can’t stand to have their work scrutinised by upper class Whitehall spivs, and I
    don’t blame them. Running a school in a 90% Muslim inner city Birmingham suburb
    is a challenge the likes of which Gove, May, Miliband, Clegg have absolutely no
    frame of reference through which to comment meaningfully. The current right wing
    crap will do nothing more than force lot of people from within the Muslim
    community, and others too, And they would
    have every reason to if this garbage continues. This is their homeland. the
    report found 0 evidence of extremism. So much noise here about Muslim
    extremism in few schools in a British city and yet your government spends
    Billions of dollars supporting and nurturing Islamic extremism in Syria and
    Saudi Arabia.

    This Trojan Horse is a stir up to put up an attitude amongst the
    British community upon Muslims AGAIN, this hysteria has all been blown up
    because they do not want non-Muslim youngsters falling to the idea of Islam.
    Jewish schools have a more strict approach to religion than the majority of
    Islamic schools or schools that are heavily influenced by Muslim governors, yet
    they are not gonna be investigated because any hysteria brought up would be
    labelled anti-Semitism to become increasingly anti-establishment and
    belligerent. And they would have every reason to if this garbage continues. Park
    view is not multi cultural. It is mono cultural. It is to all purposes an
    Islamic school posing as a British secular state school. This “Trojan horse”
    thing worries me…I do not think that Greek classical mythology necessarily
    falls within the frame of reference of Muslims.. This affair was started by a
    hoax letter , driven by Islamophobia , which achieved its end , courtesy of a
    Government paranoid about ‘ extremism ‘ without any definition of what it means
    , and a ‘ anti-terrorism industry ‘ trying to justify itself and its funding to
    the Home Office . Meanwhile Ofsted have become a political tool , a new thought
    police , with little relevance to the standards of education , and an agenda
    driven by paranoia in a society which constantly changes its moral goalposts ,
    itself in moral flux and confusion . And let
    not forget where did this all started, with Al Qaeda, which was created and
    nurtured and armed by the West. Now everyone is complaining where do all these
    extremism come from. If you are
    serious about fighting Muslim extremism start by going to the source, in allied
    countries like Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Qatar, and so on. But that would never
    happen because you also want your cheap oil. Hypocrite.

    A report
    by the Institute for Community Cohesion found that native parents were deserting
    some schools after finding their children outnumbered by pupils from ethnic
    minorities. Schools in parts of England are becoming increasingly segregated.
    The study focused on 13 local authorities. Many of the schools and colleges are
    segregated and this was generally worsening over recent years. This is RACISM
    because British society is the home of institutional racism. My statement
    regarding Muslim schools where there is no place for non-Muslim child or a
    teacher is based on educational process and not on racism. Muslim children need
    Muslim teachers during their developmental periods. For higher studies and
    research, Muslim teacher is not a priority.

    According to a recent report, Muslim schools performed best overall,
    although they constitute only a fraction of the country’s 7000 schools. Muslim
    schools do well because of their Islamic ethos and a focus on traditional
    discipline and teaching methods. They teach children what is right and what is
    wrong, because young children need structured guidance.

    You
    better teach your children in your own schools and let migrant communities teach
    their children according to their needs and demands. British Establishment and
    society should concentrate on the evils of their own society and stop trying to
    change the way of life of Muslims. Muslim community does not want to integrate
    with the British society, indulging in incivility, anti-social behaviour, drug
    and knife culture, binge drinking, teenage pregnancies and abortion. Prince
    Charles, while visiting the first grant maintained Muslim school in north
    London, said that the pupils would be the future ambassadors of Islam. But what
    about thousands of others, who attend state schools deemed to be “sink schools”?
    In education, there should be a choice and at present it is denied to the Muslim
    community. In the late 80s and early 90s, when I floated the idea of Muslim
    community schools, I was declared a “school hijacker” by an editorial in the
    Newham Recorder newspaper in east London. This clearly shows that the British
    media does not believe in choice and diversity in the field of education and has
    no respect for those who are different. Muslim schools, in spite of meager
    resources, have excelled to a further extent this year, with couple of schools
    achieving 100% A-C grades for five or more GCSEs. They beat well resourced state
    and independent schools in Birmingham and Hackney. Muslim schools are doing
    better because a majority of the teachers are Muslim. The pupils are not exposed
    to the pressures of racism, multiculturalism and bullying.

    There
    are hundreds of state primary and secondary schools where Muslim pupils are in
    majority. In my opinion all such schools may be opted out to become Muslim
    Academies. This mean the Muslim children will get a decent education. Muslim
    schools turned out balanced citizens, more tolerant of others and less likely to
    succumb to criminality or extremism. Muslim schools give young people confidence
    in who they are and an understanding of Islam’s teaching of tolerance and
    respect which prepares them for a positive and fulfilling role in society.
    Muslim schools are attractive to Muslim parents because they have better
    discipline and teaching Islamic values. Children like discipline, structure and
    boundaries. Bilingual Muslim children need Bilingual Muslim teachers as role
    models during their developmental periods, who understand their needs and
    demands.
    IA
    London School of Islamics Trust

    • cartimandua

      Your website once said an honour murdered girl would not have been killed if she had had an “Islamic” education. In other words “Muslim” means female slaves who are possessions of men without free will.
      No thanks pi** off and take your fundamentalism with you.

      • http://www.londonschoolofislamics.org.uk IftikharA

        Let the Muslim children develop Islamic identity in a Muslim school with Muslim teachers, before they are exposed to wider world. It is a crime against humanity to send Muslim children to state or church schools with non-Muslim teachers.
        IA

        • S1999

          Far better to round up people like you and send you on your way, at which point you can crawl on to an Islamic hellhole that’s more thoroughly reflective of your real ‘values’.

        • Amgine

          Schools in the UK, which are funded by the tax-payer, are legally obliged to teach the national curriculum. Despite any school being called a faith school, the national curriculum is as close to being a secular instrument of education as we can get at the moment, however it still needs to reduce the role of religion further.

          I support the secularization of the UK education and political systems. If parents wish to funnel their child into a particular dogma, they can do this in their own time and at their own expense and within the country’s legal system.

          • http://www.londonschoolofislamics.org.uk IftikharA

            There are hundreds of state
            and church schools where Muslim children are in majority. In my opinion, all
            such schools may be opted out as Muslim Academies. DFE and Gove should consider
            my proposal seriously, otherwise, standard of education of Muslim children would
            never improve. It is a waste of tax-payers money. All minority groups should
            have their own school for their own children to improve race relation,
            otherwise, British society will suffer.

            It is the time that those
            schools who are victim of Trojan Horse, should be opted out as Muslim Academies.
            There is no place for a non-Muslim child or a teacher in a Muslim school. This
            is nothing to do with segregation or integration. it is purely an educational
            issue.

            There are currently 6,844
            state faith schools – a few more than in early 2010, before the coalition
            government came to office, when there were 6,832. Of these, 4,601 are Church of
            England, 1,986 Roman Catholic, 26 Methodist, 152 of other Christian faiths, 48
            Jewish, 18 Muslim and eight Sikh; and 763 of these faith schools are academies
            or free schools.

            Lack of evidence about what
            happened at the ‘Trojan Horse’ school. Maybe some bad things happened but there
            is hardly evidence of Homophobia or fascism. If there was, then local authority
            oversight (like in non-academy schools) would probably have stopped it. This
            whole debate is designed to get Gove off the hook. Remind me again how many
            public schools are single-sex? Including the ones attended by our current
            cabinet, perhaps? All Cameron is trying to do is stop Islamists taking over
            schools & using the curriculum to brainwash kids impressionable minds with
            religious mumbo jumbo that bares little resemblance to reality, science &
            fact. Teaching unions seem unbothered by this creeping Islamisation of our
            schools.Today’s ‘British’ values are totally based on privateering and
            profiteering. When I hear Cameron spouting vapid platitudes about ‘British
            values’ I wonder does he mean his own superficial and election-rigging slogans,
            or his efforts to portray the tiny clique of fellow frat boys’ aspirations as
            somehow ‘British’? Whatever, nothing he has done has any resemblance to anything
            recognisable as ‘British’ values. Why have Gove and Cameron started to talk
            about how they want schools to teach British values? Because of the Ofsted
            investigation into schools in Birmingham. They mean “we have to make clear that
            the values that were being taught in those schools are not British values”. It
            would really be better if they said “values of modern Western liberal democracy”
            but I suppose they think that doesn’t make a very good sound bite.Ask those in
            Guantanamo Bay what they think of democracy and respect for the rule of law. All
            values are relative, and used to suit those in power.

            So much noise here about
            Muslim extremism in few schools in a British city and yet your government spends
            Billions of dollars supporting and nurturing Islamic extremism in Syria and
            Saudi Arabia. And let not forget where did this all started, with Al Qaeda,
            which was created and nurtured and armed by the West. Now everyone is
            complaining where do all these extremism come from. If you are serious about
            fighting Muslim extremism start by going to the source, in allied countries like
            Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Qatar, and so on. But that would never happen because you
            also want your cheap oil. Hypocrites.
            IA

          • Amgine

            If a faith school wishes to “opt out” of the state sector they can do that, I guess. However, the children will still have to follow the national curriculum either in their non-state assisted school or in a state school. It will be very onerous on the children of muslim parents to expect them to follow a double dose of curriculum, particularly if one curriculum contradicts the other.

            Parents can even home-school their children if they prefer. But all British children have to follow the national curriculum. All educators, whether they are funded schools or home-schoolers, will be inspected by Ofsted and all children will be examined using the current exam providers and systems.

            If a school or education provider is failing a student, we need to know as quickly as possible so that the child or children involved can be helped to overcome the deficit. Personally, I am not interested in “British values” I am much more interested in a sound and rigorous basic education for children and accessible and affordable education for everyone to encourage life-long learning.

          • http://www.londonschoolofislamics.org.uk IftikharA

            All Muslim schools follow the National Curriculum alon with Islamic studies, Arabic, Urdu and other community languages.

            Here is an Ofsted report of a Muslim school:

            Al-Ikhlaas Primary School – an independent
            Muslim school on Norfolk Street, Nelson – has recently been rated “outstanding” across all areas.

            It is the only primary school which comprises early years,
            infants and juniors to achieve “outstanding” in Nelson and Burnley. Staff, pupils, parents and governors were delighted with the outcome after a four-day inspection.

            In their report, inspectors from Bridge Schools Inspectorate
            – approved by the Secretary of State of Education – praised many aspects of the school.

            The report said:

            l The quality of education provided is outstanding because
            the curriculum, both Islamic and secular, is imaginatively and methodically planned across all key stages.

            l The quality of the pupil’s spiritual, moral, social and
            cultural development is outstanding.

            l The school is managed effectively.

            l The school is very well organised day-to-day

            l All the regulations for independent schools are met

            l The school has attained above the levels expected
            nationally in mathematics, reading and writing at Level 4 and is exceeding the national higher level 5.

            l The exceptional personal development and excellent
            progress mean pupils are well prepared for the next stage of their education

            The school’s first Ofsted inspection took place in 2011, and
            rated Al-Ikhlaas “good”.

            Chair of governors Mr I. Ashraf said: “I would like to thank
            and congratulate all the staff, parents, pupils and fellow governors for all the hard work, commitment and dedication that has led Al-Ikhlaas to become an outstanding school in such a short time.”
            IA

          • Amgine

            As I say, if the national curriculum is being followed and Ofsted is making inspections then that covers current legislation. If a school is doing well they will continue to be inspected and any failing school will be put under special measures or be closed down.

            Personally I would remove religions and politics from any state-funded role and move to secularization throughout the public sphere. So, the end goal should be to not have any faith schools other than privately-funded Sabbath Schools. And I would enable students to opt out of those by the age of seven on an on-going basis.

  • GraveDave

    The vast majority of Muslim’s… Sorry, what comes next boss?

  • meqmac

    Thanks for that, Douglas. I endorse it fully. But I have to ask why no-one refers to the fact that, as far back as 2009, the think tank Civitas published online a report of about 300 pages written by myself (Denis MacEoin) and entitled ‘Music, Chess and Other Sins’ (still available at: http://www.civitas.org.uk/pdf/MusicChessAndOtherSins.pdf. This was a detailed report on radicalism in Muslim schools. It examined 166 schools and found radical links in about 50% of those investigated. The first part was given to Ofsted, and a complete annotated list of the schools was given to them privately. They ignored it, and one senior official tried to persuade us that there was really nothing wrong and that we shouldn’t kick up a fuss. Five years later, the authorities are still scraping the top of a deep barrel. I still want to know why Ofsted did nothing to draw attention to what we had uncovered. The public has a right to know.

    • James Lovelace

      “I endorse it fully. But I have to ask why no-one refers to the fact that, as far back as 2009,”

      I refer you to “Yes, Minister” and “The Thick of It”. You can be sure that Gove & Ofsted have known these things all along (after all, Gove wrote “Celsius 7/7” in 2006 – that book is the manifesto of EDL).

      The Tories have dusted off this issue now, so that they an appear to have the balls to draw the line in the sand on islamisation. After the next GE, the Tories will go back to what they were doing in 2013.

      After all, in 2005 Cameron said “islamic extremists are Nazis”. A few years into his premiership, he was having tea with these people (just as Brown was doing in 2009).

      http://henryjacksonsociety.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/HIZB.pdf

  • Roger Hudson

    i’m not ‘phobed’ of islam, i think it’s nonsense dreamt up by someone dehydrating in Arabia , an easy way to hallucinate . I don’t like it but i’m not ‘phobic (feared).

  • Ron Todd

    Our political masters let other cultures settle here encourage them to retain their culture however socially backwards, then blame us for being insufficiently inclusive and multicultural.

  • Blindsideflanker

    The Bangladeshi Labour MP really lost it over the the Spectator’s depiction of a child with the Koran and sword. Her moral outrage, which expected to engender support from the audience on Any Questions when it reached its crescendo, was met with indifference.

    • Damaris Tighe

      the times they are a-changing …

    • Shazza

      Baroness Warsi also got her knickers in a knot about it.

  • mikewaller

    It is in this context that Roger Scruton’s nonsense of a few weeks ago about the human need for religious belief needs to be judged. The one area in which modern Western minds very much have the edge over religious fundamentalists is that in a collective sense, we have seen it all before. Whether it be having to repell an expansive Islam, conducting our own expansive follies in the form of the Crusades, enduring as a Continent the horrors of the great Christian schism which gave us the Thirty Years War and much else besides and even in our own lifetimes, the incredible barbarism of paramilitaries (= bloody murderers) of both persuasions in Northern Ireland, we know all too well the down side of intense religious belief. To put it at its simplest, to us Shi’ite vs. Sony or Muslim vs the Rest are just other renditions of a very tired old song.

    This is why Scruton’s would-be retreat into religiosity and rejection of Darwinism as an explanatory model is so incredibly foolish. The best brains in the kindred fields of Theoretical Biology and Neuroscience are at last getting to grips with the true nature of the human being. What is now very clearly apparent is that we have evolved to compete or co-operate depending on which activity is most likely to further the evolutionary “interests” of the genes we carry. A transcendentally powerful drive to divide the human world into “them” and “us” seems to be at the core of this process. It is also clear that we carry mechanisms which punish us in both mind and body for for our self-perceived failures and do the reverse with success. Whilst this is common to all sentient species, the human’s big brain throws up special problems. The sense of being successful comes from a belief that what what we have done is worthwhile, the whole idea of which becomes deeply problematic in a world our brains tell us is itself entirely without purpose. Hence our need to invent gods of every persuasion. Yet as our own history and the current activities of fundamentalists across the globe so clearly demonstrate, “that way madness lies”.

    It therefore seems to me that the primary objective of modern education should be to alert any with the brain to understand that we carry these in-built proclivities and that learning to minimise their very dangerous effects is the highest calling of a civilised human being. Given our now unprecedented destructive capabilities, the future of the entire human race may well turn on whether or not we are successful in this endeavour.

  • https://sites.google.com/site/deanjackson60/home Dean Jackson

    LOL! A plot to take over state schools in Birmingham by “Islamists”? They were taken over by Communist agents decades ago, as the following proves…

    Take a look at what the Russian government ordered the Russian Ministry of Defense to keep on the masthead of its official newspaper…see if you notice something odd…

    http://www.redstar.ru/

    “Krasnaya Zvezda” is Russian for “Red Star”, the official newspaper of Soviet and later Russian Ministry of Defense. The paper’s official designation is, “Central Organ of the Russian Ministry of Defense.” Note the four Soviet emblems next to the still existing Soviet era caption titled “Red Star”(!), one of the Soviet emblems including the image of Lenin, the man who removed the independent Russian nation from the map, supplanting it within the new nation called the USSR, a murderous one-party government that spread violence throughout the world in order to “liberate” the world, and bring into existence a one-world Soviet dictatorship! If the “collapse” of the USSR was real, then the “Red Star” caption, four Soviet emblems and Lenin’s image could not form the masthead of the Russian Ministry of Defense’s newspaper, due to their association with the Soviet Union and its ideals of world revolution. Imagine the official paper of the German Ministry of Defense is named “Das Third Reich”, where next to the caption are four Nazi emblems, one of the emblems sporting a profile of Adolph Hitler’s head!

    The fraudulent “collapse” of the USSR (and East Bloc) couldn’t have been pulled off until both political parties in the United States (and political parties elsewhere in the West) were co-opted by Moscow & Allies, which explains why verification of the “collapse” was never undertaken by the West, such verification being (1) a natural administrative procedure (since the USSR wasn’t occupied by Western military forces); and (2) necessary for the survival of the West. Recall President Reagan’s favorite phrase, “Trust, but verify”.

    Notice that not one political party in the West demanded verification of the collapse of the USSR, and the media failed to alert your attention to this fact, including the “alternative” media. When determining whether the “former” USSR is complying with arms control treaties, what does the United States do to confirm compliance? Right, the United States sends into the “former” USSR investigative teams to VERIFY compliance, yet when it’s the fate of the West that’s at stake should the collapse of the USSR be a ruse, what does the United States do to confirm the collapse? Nothing!

    It gets worse–the West also never (1) de-Communized the Soviet Armed Forces of its Communist Party officer corps, which was 90% officered by Communist Party members; and (2) arrested and detained the 6-million vigilantes that assisted the Soviet Union’s Ministry of the Interior control the populations of the larger cities during the period of “Perestroika” (1986-1991)!

    There was no verification, de-Communization and de-mobilization.

    Now you know who tasked the West’s politicians’ laughable, image-destroying and never-ending “War on Terror” — Moscow & Allies.

  • Gwangi

    LOL. Just heard some hysterical Islamobint throwing a gigantic Jihadist wobbly on Radio 4’s ‘Any Clue What The Question Is, Ahmed’ (or whatever the fug it’s called these days) about how racist and Islamophobic and simply evil The Spectator’s cover of a Muslim child with a sword is…
    Hilarious! Made my day!

    • cartimandua

      The ghastly creature who wont shut up and thinks a bright hijab covers up her fundamentalism.

  • Terry Field

    How many of us believe there is other than a nation wide attempt to proselytise Islam – an extreme and dangerous belief set – across the schools of Britain, in Islamic homes, in the mosques, in their cultural meeting centres, and all other places where moslems form a majority -or even a significant minority.
    Who anymore believes that moslem communities in Britain are anything other than a massive danger to a country that foolishly welcomed these people in.
    And who any more believes that there is a possibility for these incompatible belief sets to continue to operate as close neighbours??
    And who any more believes the politically correct corrupt propaganda that most moslems are reasonable and wish to live within a common community, and there are a set of crackpots who are a dangerous minority?????
    Surely nobody does apart from insurgents and the culturally damaged.
    These few schools are a microscope – but all around this generation of angry arrogant isolation is happening – we do not need a microscope – it is all there, in plain sight.

    • Shazza

      The genie is out of the bottle and our ‘leaders’ are in a panic as to what to do.

      If they admit that there is no such thing as moderate islam, just islam then they will have to do something about it.

      Therein lies the rub.

  • The_Sensible_One

    Shocking that people don’t understand what it is to be British.
    This is the nation that created the scientific method, empiricist philosophy, tamed christianity, taught most of the world to read, made the first accurate global maps, conquered half the world, has been behind pretty most major discoveries of this and the last century AND kerbstomped Germany consistently when it got ideas above its station.

    It’s pretty obvious what it means to be British. Its about simply being superior to everyone else.
    It’s about discarding spiritualism and superstition so we can study the world honestly.
    It’s about ignoring the cries of liberal naivete so we can civilise barbarians.

    It really is all about “the white mans burden” to use a somewhat silly phrase.

    • Newcombe

      This is the nation that created the scientific method, empiricist
      philosophy, tamed christianity, taught most of the world to read, made
      the first accurate global maps, conquered half the world, has been
      behind pretty most major discoveries of this and the last century AND
      kerbstomped Germany consistently when it got ideas above its station

      Conquering the world is not something to be poud of. It invariably means subjugation of indigenous populations, stealing their natural resoucres, wiping out their cultures (and languages), forced conversions and treating them like dirt in their own countries. Just so you understand, Islam also conquered vast swaths of land (and is still a work in progress) and its followers are just as proud of it (many even want to regain Spain don’t forget) as you are of British conquest. Both they and you sound ridiculous.

      Also, when you say “taught most of the world to read” you forgot to add “English”.

      Anyway, your comment is so one sided that it looks like you went to some British madrasa.

      • cartimandua

        Yes we taught the world to read. It is still “forbidden” to read the “holy book” in the vernacular in most of the Muslim world.
        It was allowing the Bible to be read in local languages which boosted literacy.

      • La Fold

        “Also, when you say “taught most of the world to read” you forgot to add “English”.”
        What were the chances of english speakers teaching other people to read and write in… English? Hardly going to be able to teach them to write in Esperanto were we?

      • mohdanga

        And if the British hadn’t had a large empire some other country would have filled the vacuum, all the other European countries did the same as did the Chinese, Japanese, Muslims, Mongols, etc.
        It’s odd that for all the supposed bad things the British did the denizens of India, Pakistan, Africa, etc can’t wait to hightail it to Britain for a better life. Plenty of wealth and natural resources left in these places, Britian’s been out of them for 70+ years. Must be Britain’s fault that 3 generations of natives haven’t been able to figure things out.

  • Newcombe

    All this huffing and puffing will come to nowt because thankfully majority of British people know the “British Values” that teaches us tolerance and respect for other religions and faiths. There is nothing being taught in these (majority, nearly 100%) Muslim schools that is not taught in an Islamic faith school – so why the fuss?

    Islamic values being taught in mainly Muslim school, what is wrong with that?

    A solution would be to turn these schools into Islamic faith schools. This would be a win-win situation for all. They can get our uncalled for intrusion off their backs and we can be happy in the thought that kids are being taught and brought up correctly, as they should under their Islamic faith.

    • cartimandua

      “Islamic” values are gender inequality and tribal customs so they should not be allowed in any British school of any description.

      • Amgine

        All the more reason why children from Muslim families should be sent to local schools with the standard national curriculum and exams and Ofsted inspections.

    • crosscop

      Islamic values being taught in mainly Muslim school, what is wrong with that?

    • LunarCity7

      our “British Values” that teaches us tolerance and respect for other religions and faiths….

      ….”Islamic values being taught in mainly Muslim school, what is wrong with that?”

      So British values and Islamic values are two different things- yet you define British values in terms of respect and tolerance to those who believe differently to us, and not forcing our ways on them.

      So then what are Islamic values? Quite the opposite, I’m afraid to remind you. I don’t buy into the definition of British values being simply “tolerance and respect” as the Left keep insisting, but if it’s a choice between tolerance and respect and hatred towards those who don’t believe the same as you, I’ll go with your version of British Values being taught in schools.

      The contradiction in your comment, that British values are of tolerance but you are happy for British values not to be taught to Muslim kids, is mind-boggling.

    • James Lovelace

      ” all this huffing and puffing (mainly by right wing politicians, anti-Muslim bigots and Islamophoes) will come to nowt ”

      That’s where you are deluded. 5 years ago I predicted the rise of right wing parties across Europe. Dumb lefties like you thought this was my wish, and laughed at it. They’re not laughing now.

  • serguei_p

    In some way a “victim syndrome” is also created by the mainstream British education.
    What a young Muslim boy would learn at school? He would learn that British Empire was bad and killed people while Muslims were human-rights supporters. A young boy would never learn about anything bad about the Muslim world (as if there were no conquest and prosecution).
    It is not a surprise that when this young boy is told by Islamists that it is all white non-Muslim people’s fault he will believe it – he never heard an alternative.

    • Amgine

      I believe that the national curriculum does include lessons on the Quran, Islamic culture and learning about the history of Islam as well as other religions and cultures. We also include citizenship study. So, you might be able to get hold of a copy of the full national curriculum and exam questions regarding Islam and UK citizenship. That might set your mind at rest.

      Ironically, you could be in danger of believing that white, non-Muslims have no faults and all the blame lies with all Muslims. Everyone would benefit from cross-cultural communication and understanding.

      • mohdanga

        White, non-Muslim British have bent over backwards to show ‘cross-cultural communication and understanding’ and what has been the result?? More demands from Muslims, more ghettoization, more threats, more radicalization. Seems the problem isn’t with non-Muslims.

        • Amgine

          Actually, although there are some definite specific areas where particular faiths or cultures congregate, the spread of Muslims, Hindus and Buddhists throughout London, for example, is much more pronounced than Jews, who have had longer to assimilate. So, Muslims on the whole, seem able to mesh with local communities fairly well.

          Brits and all other cultures will tend to set up little enclaves when they move into other countries. If immigrants intend to stay, they are more likely to try to integrate and strike out on their own in a country. It is probably quite daunting for foreigners to just turn up and feel immediately welcomed and fully conversant with their host community’s ways and infrastructures. It’s difficult for the host communities too and our governments, past and present, have lacked foresight when it comes to supporting host communities as well as immigrants.

  • global city

    ” ‘All my life,’ she told me, ‘I have been told what my rights are as a Muslim woman. No one ever told me what my rights are as a British woman.’”

    This should be quoted to every simpering leftie and creepy ‘yumanrights’ lawyer.

  • rtj1211

    Seriously: what percentage of pupils in the whole country are ‘exposed to the controlling views of Islamists’?

    I’m not saying this isn’t a thing to worry about, I’m merely asking whether this affects 5% or 35% of children.

    The effects on society will be rather different in those two scenarios, you know……

    • mohdanga

      Take a look at the birth rates in Britain of Muslims and that’s your answer. Many studies showing that in 30 years time Muslims will be a significant part of the population.

      From the Telegraph earlier this year: “Census figures reveal a ‘startling’ shift in Britain’s demographic trend with almost a tenth of babies and toddlers born in England and Wales being Muslim. The percentage of Muslims among the under-fives is almost twice as high as in the general population.”
      So, Muslims make up 5% of the overall population but 10% of children under 5…numbers that will continue to grow as Britain and the West continue on the cultural suicide policy of mass immigration.

      • Amgine

        Babies aren’t Muslim. Their parents might be Muslim but babies aren’t born with a religion any more than they are born with a political view or understanding of any philosophy or theology.

        If we ensure that all schools follow the national curriculum fully and they are inspected by Ofsted and the pupils are given state-approved examinations in order to enter non-sectarian universities, the children of Muslims will stand a fair chance of becoming non-religious and only culturally Muslim, just as the majority of UK residents are only culturally Christian.

        • mohdanga

          More liberal, multiculti bafflegab. ‘Culturally Muslim’ means they are religiously Muslim!!
          And Muslim parents don’t inculcate Muslim beliefs in their children?? Why do they demand Muslim only schools then?

          • Amgine

            Was it too difficult for you to understand? I’ll try to make it easier for you.

            Although there are parents in the UK who “demand” their own version of faith school, such as Roman Catholic and Church of England, the decline in those religions is continual despite having their needs accommodated, enabling them to indoctrinate their children.

            In the linked graph, you will note that as religion declines, atheism increases. And, even if you lump all non-Christian sects together, they barely overtake the Roman Catholics.
            http://bsa-30.natcen.ac.uk/media/28923/key_findings_figure_0.1_499x321.jpg

            I am a cultural Christian in that I bother, to a small extent, with
            Christmas and Easter and I attend church weddings etc but I certainly
            don’t believe in a god or follow any Christian dogma. So, I suspect that
            the next generations of Muslims will become increasingly less dogmatic
            and will only bother with the traditions similar to how Brits observe
            their own religious festivals.

            My preference would be to abolish all faith schools and only allow schools to be run along strictly secular lines with a broad-based national curriculum. I’d be happy to accommodate cultural and regional differences but, on the whole, the curriculum would be standardized.

  • justejudexultionis

    I do not think we should tolerate Islam. Indeed, we should seriously consider banning this odious, nihilistic death cult with its hatred of difference, freedom of speech, democracy and our historic institutions. Forget about so-called ‘moderate Muslims’. The fact is that the only ‘moderate Muslims’ are apostate ones. The fact is that if we do not act now to prevent the spread of the Koranic ideology then we can expect even greater bloodshed in the future. How many innocents must die on our trains and planes before our spineless ‘leaders’ wake up?

    SOLI DEO GLORIA

    • Amgine

      http://bsa-30.natcen.ac.uk/media/28923/key_findings_figure_0.1_499x321.jpg

      Study that graph and you will see that, even if you lump all Muslims in with Jews, Hindus, Buddhists, Sikhs and every other non-Christian doctrine, they are by far the smallest minority compared to Christians and non-religious.

      It’s heartening to see that the general level of religiosity is declining overall. Atheists outnumber the religious by a small percentage at the moment but the direction of travel is away from religion and towards a more rational view of the world.

      • James Lovelace

        “by far the smallest minority compared to Christians and non-religious.”

        Around 2005 The Times carried an article pointing out that the muslim population of Britain was growing at a speed 10x greater than any other demographic group.

        • Amgine

          Have you seen the data? I’m not really interested in opinion based on hearsay and speculation from nearly ten years ago. I’m interested in facts and data now. The data indicates a general progression in the rise of atheism. Atheism is unlikely to attempt to force anyone to convert to Islam so, if we continue in the same way, the numbers of practicing Muslims, Hindus and Christians etc will be practically immaterial.

          Regardless of how many people convert to Islam, what are the deconversion rates? Last time I checked they were at 75% three years ago. Deconversions are likely to increase and actual conversions are likely to decrease as more people understand agnosticism and atheism. There are probably more resident British people converting to Islam (and then deconverting) than arrive here as non-white Muslim immigrants, but I’d need to check the statistics to be certain. I’m certainly not going to just assume the worst or the best and, as long as people are only looking at the conversion rate and not the deconversion rate, they’re not looking at the bigger picture. The figure that is more interesting is the balance between conversions and deconversions of the different religions and none.

          In 15 out of 23 European countries the percentage of population who have stopped believing in any god typically exceed the percentage who believe: Netherlands -14%, Spain 112%, France -11%, Norway -11%, Sweden -6%, UK – 10%. However there has also been a study that showed a much narrower gap in the UK of -.5%, which is still a downward trend. On aggregate, I’d take a midway between the two figures and put it at -5%.

          Admittedly, many of those who have stopped believing in gods have switched over to unfocused supernatural beliefs – and that causes its own problems when it comes to faith healing and charlatanism.

          —-
          A conversation thread on the topic by ex-muslims themselves. http://councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=4198.0

          • James Lovelace

            “There are probably more resident British people converting to Islam (and then deconverting) than arrive here as non-white Muslim immigrants, but I’d need to check the statistics to be certain. ”

            Utter rubbish. 60% of Pakistani and Bengali muslims in Britain import a muslim spouse from their “home country”.

            The number of ex-christians in the west is on the rise. But the speed at which the muslim population in Britain increases is around 100% every 10 years. Within 20 years, muslims in Britain will out-number christians.

            If you think that so many muslims in Britain are becoming atheists, then tell us where you are meeting all these muslim atheists. The only ex-muslims I’ve ever met have been those who go on EDL demos.

            One of my friends is married to a muslim. He eats non-halal meat, he’s not had his boys circumcised, he doesn’t go to the mosque, he’s not taught his kids anything about islam. He’s a scientist. But when I ask him if he’s an atheist or if he’s no longer a muslim, he confirms he is still a muslim.

          • Amgine

            Can you give me links to your data regarding the 100% increase per annum of Muslims? And your 60% figure for country-specific, family-related visas.

            Your last bit of anecdotal evidence is very interesting. I’ll have to look into that. If, as you say, one of your friends regards himself as a Muslim despite being very westernized, then it’s likely that other Muslims will become merely Muslim in name only and will assimilate well into British society, particularly if they disperse into the larger population by marriage or through work-related movement. I’m a vaguely cultural Christian, myself, but I certainly don’t follow the dogma of The Bible and pulpit and I only go to church for weddings. It’s highly likely that your friend might consider himself a Muslim (culturally) but his offspring are likely to consider themselves non-Muslim. I don’t see a problem with immigrants who wish to retain their cultural heritage or identity, just as I wouldn’t begrudge a scotsman (or anyone else) wearing a kilt and liking haggis.

          • James Lovelace

            “Can you give me links to your data regarding the 100% increase per annum of Muslims? And your 60% figure for country-specific, family-related visas.”

            Whilst challenging other people to provide data, you have provided none.

            “If, as you say, one of your friends regards himself as a Muslim despite being very westernized, then it’s likely that other Muslims will become merely Muslim in name only and will assimilate well into British society, particularly if they disperse into the larger population by marriage or through work-related movement. ”

            But here’s some links off the top of my head which show you are utterly delusional and out of touch with reality.

            99.5% of British muslims are avowedly anti-gay.
            http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2009/may/07/muslims-britain-france-germany-homosexuality

            My friend is very tolerant of gay people. He does not mind that his 8 year old son dresses in girls clothes, and is quite effeminate (not that those are typical traits of all gay people but it indicates how unusual my muslim friend is).

            Younger muslims are 3x more fascistic than their parents.
            http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/6309983.stm

            You have got no evidence to back up any of your Panglossian theories.

          • Amgine

            I have been giving links. And I’ve been citing actual data. I thought I might have been posting too many links.

            Younger people tend to have more extreme or anti-establishment views than their parents and older people. As we take our place in society, we tend to give up wild ideas and we become more tolerant. So I wouldn’t be surprised if young Muslims and young Christians are more devout and radical than their jaded parents. I would also expect that for practicing Christians, their faith is highly important to them. So asking practicing Muslims if their faith is important to them is likely to produce a high result.

            I will spend some time looking over the Gallup Coexist Index for 2009 and look forward to an update on that. Interestingly 82% British Muslims feel loyal to this country whereas only 39% of the general public think Muslims are loyal to the UK. The majority of British Muslims would like to live in a mixed neighbourhood rather than a totally Muslim or non-Muslim one.

            Page 23 is interesting: the level of confidence British Muslims have in different state institutions appears slightly higher than the general population… they seem to rate the quality and integrity of the media (!) It’s sad that only 7% of Muslims feel that they are “thriving” in the UK as opposed to the general population at 56% (which is also a shocking figure in itself).

            Muslims in the UK are worse of than the general population when it comes to employment. In France and Germany it looks fairly even but, in the UK 62% of the general public has a job but only 38% of British Muslims are employed. Poverty is likely to cause social unrest and crime. And yet, despite being less employed, Muslims are only slightly less dissatisfied with their standard of living fig 29.

            The stats regarding permissiveness are interesting, aren’t they? Just staying with figure 32. Notice that the difference between the two columns is about 43% – 50% in France and Germany. So the difference between the two columns in the UK is not totally out of balance with other EU countries. I’ve always thought of France as being more permissive than UK, (we can be a quite prudish), so those stats reflect that. But, any stats that show either 0% or 100% tend to sound alarm bells for me. I guess, though, that if one was to survey Christians they would have a lower tolerance of homosexuality to the general population. I would have liked to have seen the Christian, Jewish and Hindu adherents’ responses to these questions alongside this data. (Missed opportunity).

            British Muslims and non-Muslims are fairly evenly accepting of the death penalty and almost totally non-accepting of honour killings. And Muslims are almost fully opposed to attacking civillians. So that’s good, isn’t it?

            Do you have your statistics showing the 100% increase in Muslim immigrants per annum and the 60% family-related visas?

            What percentage of the UK population do you think is made up of non-whites and/or Muslims? And of the percentage of non-whites, how many of those do you think are recent immigrants as opposed to British-born? Currently, we have approximately 15% non-white ethnic groups in England & Wales and those include both newcomers as well as long-term resident and British-born. (source ONS http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/dcp171776_290558.pdf)

            This graph is interesting, with regards to trends in religious affiliation:
            http://bsa-30.natcen.ac.uk/media/28923/key_findings_figure_0.1_499x321.jpg

            Notice the grey line. It is made up of *all* the non-Christian religions. So that’s Muslim, Hindu, Jewish, Buddhist, Sikh, Wiccan… everything.

          • Chris Morriss

            I read what he wrote as 100% increase (ie, doubling) every 10 years. Perhaps English isn’t your first language?

          • Amgine

            I know what James Lovelace wrote. I want to know where he got the data. Without links to the actual research it’s just hearsay.

            By the way, I’m not a fan of the Quran and the Muslim religion or traditions. But I’m not going to simply hate all Muslims because I don’t understand them or dislike some of the beliefs some of them hold.

  • justejudexultionis

    Growing up in a northern English city, I recall a large, extended Pakistani family living in a giant house on our street. They made no attempt whatsoever to integrate on any level, nor even it seems learn our language properly; indeed, the impression one got in dealing with them, even cursorily, was that they held our society in contempt and were here only for the money (presumably to send back to Pakistan). I don’t for a moment suggest that every immigrant Muslim or Pakistani family in our country is like this, but there is clearly a massive problem that must be addressed. Multiculturalism is failing and if we do not act then more atrocities will occur on British soil.

    • Amgine

      I was looking at a map of London recently, to see how well different ethnic minorities are spreading and integrating into London as a whole. And, although Jews have been long-time residents in the UK, by comparison to Muslims and Hindus, the Jewish population seems to be very focused in a smaller area of London. Although there are undoubtedly some high concentrations of Muslims, Hindus and Buddhists in other specific areas of London, the general spread is much more pronounced. So perhaps Muslims are better at integrating than we think. After all, we’re not all that obsessed with Chinatown in London, are we? Originally Chinatown was in the East End but it has since moved to Soho.

      My parents have lived in their neighbourhood for fifty years and, it’s true to say that newcomers of any description are much more insular than the resident population. Over the years we have seen the old-timers move away or die off and be replaced by newcomers who are much less interested in their neighbours. It might just be the modern way with neighbours, with so many people out at work and fewer children playing out in the streets and in each other’s houses, we are less likely to mix and learn how to rub along.

  • http://t.co/rXjomKpfUv JP Janson De Couet

    The people defending this article and the vocabulary they choose to do it tells you just how much the article panders to racists. But of course Mr. Murray knows this perfectly well.

    • Nationalist Sex

      Since your definition of ‘racist’ in reality includes the majority of native English people, I think we’re good.

      And by the way, you do realise Douglas is a Liberal, don’t you? His views and outlook are both Liberal indeed in contrast to most native British/English people, specifically the native working class (the people who own this nation, and whom are, to my mind at least, the only people that count in this country).

      • http://t.co/rXjomKpfUv JP Janson De Couet

        I think it is time that the normal people of Britain stood up against the attempts to redefine English by the extreme right. It reminds me of Holocaust deniers like David Irving, the Nazis or the Ministry of Truth in 1984.Ordinary patriotic Brits imbued with “British values” know a fascist when they see one and have absolutely no trouble with the words “racist” and “Islamophobia”. P.G.Wodehouse, who invented the ridiculous fascist leader Roderick Spode, would have been amused at all the sound-a-likes in this comment column trying to defend the “very right wing” rabble rouser Douglas Murray. The Spectator should know better than to give him the oxygen of publicity.

        • OldJoeClark
        • James Lovelace

          “I think it is time that the normal people of Britain stood up against the attempts to redefine English by the extreme right.”

          Good luck with that. When the EDL used to arrive in a town, the local population would come out of their houses (and even get out of their cars) to applaud the arrival of EDL.

          • http://t.co/rXjomKpfUv JP Janson De Couet

            Are the EDL big fans of Douglas Murray?

          • Chris Morriss

            I really. really hope that you’re not a JP in reality.

          • http://t.co/rXjomKpfUv JP Janson De Couet

            If I was I be reviewing the laws on incitement to racial hatred.

      • Amgine

        It is untrue to assert that Britain will eventually become an Islamic state, or that this is a demographic reality.

        Despite the rhetoric regarding Islam taking over our nation and
        murdering everyone in their beds, the encouraging data shows that all
        religiosity is declining and the number of people who claim no religion is increasing: http://bsa-30.natcen.ac.uk/media/28923/key_findings_figure_0.1_499x321.jpg

        Note
        that, even if we were to lump *all* Muslims in with Sikhs, Hindus,
        Jews, Buddhists and any other non-Christian religion or philosophy, there are still
        fewer of all these put together than we have Roman Catholics. In some
        areas of the UK there is a much more concentrated level of Muslim
        identity but, when I look at the map of London and distribution of
        religions from the 2011 census data, the Muslim and Hindu populations seem to have spread a lot
        further than the Jewish communities. This tends to dilute the influence
        of one religion or culture as it spreads. I think a host nation should
        make every effort to encourage this spread otherwise we end up with
        diasporas and the different communities remain suspicious of each other. Just look at how Brits prefer to stick together in Spain or during the British colonization of other countries.

        The largest group of immigrants into the UK since the 1950s has been from Ireland, at approximately 500,000 per decade. We still received approximately 400,000 Irish in the last decade. The top five countries migrating into the UK are: India, Poland, Pakistan, Ireland and Germany. Despite receiving a constant stream of Irish into the UK, we haven’t become a hotbed of radical Roman Catholicism.
        http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/resources/wavesofmigrationfinal_tcm77-346356.png

        Overall, whites make up the largest ethnic group in the UK – by miles. Even if we only focus on London, which has the richest diversity of ethnic groups, whites make up approximately 60% of the whole. Black and Asian stand at approximately 15% each. Whites are not even close to becoming a minority in the UK.

    • Adam Carter

      On the contrary.
      Those who know about Islam and do not condemn it are the racists.
      If the ideas of Islam, : superiority of adherents, second-class status for some non-adherents and third class status for others, second-class status for women, approval of lying in furtherance of its ends, approval of violence and more, were put forward by middle-aged white men then it would be a banned organisation.
      But Islam’s followers are predominantly brown-skinned, and hard of thinking PC idiots are so scared of being called racists that they allow the ideas of Islam a free pass.

    • Terry Field

      Do live in a strict Islamic state the reconsider please.

  • sebastian2

    Matthew is fairly wrong (seems dangerously complacent to me) while Douglas is fairly correct (at least recognises there’s a difficulty, which might be growing and that requires address). However difficult to define conclusively, there’s a strong instinctive, public sense, surely, of what it means to be British and what values underpin that concept. And again, in a strong instinctives sense, many know that islam generally doesn’t share those values; and the more we learn about this cult and the more we observe its behaviours, the more convinced we become that it cannot fit in as it often is, and that its claims to be a religion of peace and tolerance are exaggerated or bogus: look at Syria, Lebanon, Iraq, Sudan, Pakistan ………….. Equally implausible is its claim to be “perfect”. And yet this is what mohammedans are taught to believe – among other things. They, from the earliest and most impressionable age, are drilled to submit to the “Final Testament”. Not just to submit and believe unquestioningly, but to fight those who don’t. These are dispositions Britain cannot and should not tolerate, but these are dispositions promulgated, it seems, in “Trojan Horse” schools. So there’s an issue here.
    Our schools – and this, too, is part of being British – teach right from the primary stage, the art of enquiry, investigation, question, speculation, and as pupils grow, critical thinking. They teach open-ness, a sense of practical equality, and the right to challenge ideas and assumptions by argument and reason. They teach the skills of sceptical interrogation; of intellectual audacity. They teach less – and this should change – the notion of responsibilities and obligations to balance the sense of “rights” and “claims”, but the rights they do impart include those those of freedom of conscience – which is non existant in islam and is accordingly omitted from the Cairo Declaration which subordinates all to shari’ia. Schools also teach – or should teach – the debt we owe to our Judeo-Christian heritage and the riches this has yielded over time. (Muslims have got to cease their vile denegration of Jews and other “non-believers”.) These are all fundamental “British” values that we’ve struggled to compose and adopt, and run parallel – or are integral – to whatever “British” topical or informational (“academic”) content the curriculum might offer.
    Muslims must recognise this. We have got to make it clear that there’s no compromise on these and there’s no prospect at all of mohammedan communities replicating in Britain, those largely backward and bigoted communities they’ve migrated from and where the madrassas fix the outlook on the world.

    • Terry Field

      BUT THERE IS EVERY PROBABILITY that these ‘communities’ will succeed entirely.
      It is unimaginable that Britain and its sleepwalking leaders and – effectively- fellow travellers, will do a thing to halt and or reverse the clear intentions of the Islamic group in our midst.

      • sebastian2

        I understand your apprehensions. You’re not alone. Government and its affiliated agencies have been astonishingly inept in both understanding this phenomena and in dealing with in a timely manner. Things are all but out of hand now.
        “All but”, but not quite. Not entirely. As we learn ever more about the RoP (and it’s only this cult we seem to be getting most difficulties with), the better equipped we become to discredit it and oppose it as it deserves to be. But it takes knowledge and courage: things we can’t expect from our cowardly and self-seeking authorities. Ordinary people, however, have these attributes and as we’ve seen from Ukip, where people lead, politics will follow eventually. Even the mainstream parties agenda and utterances have been more influenced by Ukip’s clear, popular support than they dare admit to.
        So keep at it. Expose this RoP fallacy as often and wherever you can. It’s ripe for exposure and determined, intelligent and informed demolition. And if these blighters want a jihad about it, well ……….. you ain’t seen nothing yet.

  • jesseventura2

    Mass deportations of not fit and proper persons?
    Weak effete public school boys like Tony the phony Blair,Cameron,etc will never admit to a

  • The.Voice.of.Reason

    The sheeple continue to vote for weak liberal bedwetting quislings that have continued to ignore this festering sore for far too long now. The muslims in this once great country are playing the long game and while the collective denial continues they march on with their caliphate building plan.

  • Nick

    But now maybe the tide is turning against islam in the UK as more and more articles like this one are focussing the nations attention,and with any luck the politicians attention to how out of control islam has become in Britain.

  • Mack

    Don’t employ “mediaeval” as a negative. The Middle Ages in Britain were ever so much freer than the purported Renaissance.

    • Terry Field

      The intellectual vitality of the 12th Century was without parallel before the age of science, in the age of Newton.

  • Kasperlos

    The article brings out some very disturbing but nonetheless unsurprising information. It simply confirms the deceit, duplicity, betrayal and criminality run amok in Britain. Thanks to an inside job of corrupt politicians, lunatic leftist/Marxist academics, and greedy business community the nadir of Britain is still to come. But what is more important to ask, for some earnest and intrepid writer to delve into is this: Why and how has this all come about. Why in just really a short 2 decades has an alien culture – alien to a dying Western Christian Europe – been able to take root so fast, so deep without any Westminster MP raising a red flag in alarm. Think about that. Is it the mere workings of globalisation that is to blame? Is it a secret cabal of the monied elite creating a pliable and controllable society. With the older generations dying off and those too old to fight for Britain, the younger generations see today’s UK as though it always was this way: radical bearded Imams behaving as thugs stopping Non-Muslims and Muslim alike people on sidewalks from drinking, playing music or women for not wearing a halloween burqua costume in ‘their’ neighborhood – in London, England, UK, 2014. Forget ISIS in Syria and Iraq, Britains would do well to look just down their own high street for the new Caledoniaphate. Got burq(k)a and GPS to point the way to Mecca?

    • Terry Field

      How sad that your note closely reflects reality and your questions are proper. It is over, and our children are autoconditioned to accept the new degraded reality.
      There is now no way out.

  • Bob339

    All the talk and the emails to the papers will not help. You want to change our rather scary future? Get guns.

    • Amgine

      Good grief

      • Terry Field

        His desperation is a litmus of the reality- and it is, indeed, utterly frightening. ‘Good grief’ is a comment quite apposite to the situation.

        • Amgine

          What “situation”. The only “situation” Bob339 need be concerned about is his or her mindset. A call to arms; really? Just what percentage of the total UK population do you or Bob339 really think is made up of Muslims and/or non-white immigrants? And, of the actual percentage, just how many do you and Bob339 think are armed with guns and ammo? In reality, not in your minds.

          • Terry Field

            I disagree with the thrust of your comment. The ‘balcanisation’ , as Melanie Philips referred to in the Times is a more likely result. You either think there is no difficulty- a position I do not accept, or you welcome the change, which I think is an error. I look to other parts of the world where virulent minorities effectively poison social relations.
            I think very few have ‘guns and ammo’ – they do not need it. This is a battle about how man should live. The moslem barbarism – for that is what I think it is – is winning on all fronts in Britian. I regret that, I regret the country is becoming utterly disconnected from its past. That will not be my problem, but the experience of the coming generations, They will, of course, adapt, what choice will they have.
            At bottom, you seem to display a disinterest to these changes. Maybe you are disconnected from England, in some way, MAybe a perverse conceptual thinker, like a ‘socialist’.
            I do not know.
            I do not care.

          • Amgine

            Well, of course we’ll all adapt through a general process of steady multicultural integration into the whole – as we have always done. So, encouraging people to take up arms is just plain ludicrous and dangerous.

            I happen to believe that this country’s strengths lie in our ability to adapt and evolve by a cooperative process that doesn’t attempt to obliterate the opinions of others, whether they be long-term residents or relative newcomers. So I have a very positive view that our country will continue as it always has done, taking in victims of oppression, when necessary, and welcoming people who bring with them talent and energy. Who helped build much of Britain’s infrastructures? The Irish.

            Which particular era would you like us to return to? Some time between 1945 and 1950? And then set it in aspic to stop any alteration?

            Anyway, you accept that the minorities in the UK don’t have guns and ammo. So, just as worrying, are you advocating the shooting of unarmed people simply because they won’t convert to your particular viewpoint? Not good.

          • Terry Field

            Your equivalence between catholic Irish and Islam, in the context of western democratic life, is absurd, pernicious, and deeply misleading. I also never encouraged violence; there is a great difference between expressing a view that Powell was correct in his predictions and wishing that result or promoting it.
            I may observe that you are a bigoted cultural alien, but I certain do not promote your being such! I rather regret it!.
            Your comments verge on the insane; I assume you are not taking your medication.
            Seek help; it can be found.

          • Amgine

            Not misleading at all. It’s only last year that Her Majesty’s Government allowed the right of the monarch to marry a Roman Catholic. I’m not sure if the monarch was ever forbidden to marry a Jew or Muslim but, if so, I hope it won’t take many centuries before anyone of any faith or none can marry anyone else of any faith or none.

            Brits have been manipulated into being frightened of Roman Catholics and Jews, then it was Communists, Indians, Blacks and then WMDs and now it’s a drive to demonize Muslims, Europeans and immigrants generally. Actually, considering how much we rely on immigrant labour, and how many years we’ve had migrants come and go, you would think that, by now, we would realize that we aren’t going to be swept into the North Sea by “Johnny Foreigner”.

            If anyone is bigoted it is the one who is calling everyone to arms in order to obliterate people who don’t agree with his opinion. You and I are not necessarily bigoted; we’re still discussing the issue but Bob339 is probably already organizing a militia in order to start a new wave of genocide. Although, I’m pretty sure it was hyperbole.

            Just what percentage of the UK or England do you think is non-white or Muslim?

          • Terry Field

            Yes, calls to arms are dreadful. But you are stupid to suggest equivalence between Islam and Catholicism and the isolation fro the mainstream was, for Catholicism, a political requirement for a country surrounded by catholic enemies – most of whom were powerful.
            We were all European Christians, and the differences were solely political – the mindsets were otherwise similar.
            Not so with Islam; that is another, highly antipathetic world – and you persistently refuse to accept that.
            The percentage is not the point; it is the effect, and the direction of travel that matters. As you would know, if your mind were not twisted and half-formed.

            I have a vegetable garden to weed, so I will refrain from further discussion on this miserable topic.

            peas be upon you

          • Amgine

            I understand, Terry. I myself have a jungle of a fruit garden to weed. And some marketing to design.

          • La Fold

            Are you aware of the historical reasons to why the Monarch could not marry a Roman Catholic? the Monarch is the head of the Church of England. How many protestants can become the pope?

          • Amgine

            Only since last year, a UK monarch can marry a Roman Catholic. My point was aimed at illustrating how long we can drag our feet over integration and religious tolerance. A monarch him or herself still isn’t allowed to be anything other than Anglican. How many popes marry Roman Catholics, let alone Anglicans?

            Hopefully, one day we will also have separation of state and church and then we can be less concerned about who is running or overseeing the Anglican church and whether they are married to an Anglican or a Rastifarian.

          • mohdanga

            “Just what percentage of the UK or England do you think is non-white or Muslim?”
            Muslims make up about 4% of the UK population according to officia statistics (probably higher given the number of illegals in the country) while non-whites in total make up about 14%. But the frightening part is this, straight from the most recent gov’t census report: ” In 1991, the White ethnic group accounted for 94.1 per cent of the population. Between 1991 and 2001, the White ethnic group decreased to 91.3 per cent. The trend continued between the 2001 and 2011 Censuses, with a further decrease to 86.0 per cent. Within the White ethnic group, White British had decreased from 87.5 per cent in 2001 to 80.5 per cent in 2011.” So every year sees about a 5% decrease in the number of white British. Please enlighten us how this is beneficial to the indigenous British whites.
            Ten percent of babies born in the UK are Muslim. Here’s another interesting tidbit: “Between 2004 and 2008, the Muslim population of the UK grew at an annual rate of 6.7 percent, making Muslims 4 percent of the population in 2008. Extrapolating from those figures would mean that the Muslim population in 2020 would be 8 percent, 15 percent in 2030, 28 percent in 2040 and finally, in 2050, the Muslim population of the UK would exceed 50 percent of the total population.”
            You can read all the details about this enriching process here. http://www.thecommentator.com/article/3770/the_islamic_future_of_britain
            Oh, and white British are now a miniority in London.

          • Amgine

            Whites make up nearly 60% in London (making them the majority).
            http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/dcp171776_290558.pdf (page 7, Figure 3).
            Some of those whites will be non-British but I can’t find the split between white British and white non-British. White is still the largest ethnic group in London and is the largest ethnic group by far if you look in every other region of the UK. And that’s only if you’re focusing on white British; there are many other British people in the UK who are non-white. So the 14% of non-whites include people who are black, asian and mixed who are British-born and who have lived in the UK longer than some of the white population.

            When you compare London to other capital cities, the mix between the ethnicities is fairly similar because London, like most other capitals and large cities, is cosmopolitan by nature. So, London is not unusual in this respect.

            Babies are not born Muslim. They might be born to Muslim parents but, since they will enter the school and college system, they will be exposed to the national curriculum and will mix with non-Muslims the longer they stay and continue into higher education and the workforce. Since the trend for religiosity is downward across the board and the deconversion rates for Muslims is very high. I predict a general decline in the numbers of observant Muslims from a very low start point.
            http://bsa-30.natcen.ac.uk/media/28923/key_findings_figure_0.1_499x321.jpg

            Eventually, the numbers of religious adherents will have dwindled in such a way that people will become merely culturally religious, going to church or temple for weddings and similar rites of passage but not bothering with the dogma.

            If we intend to deport anyone who isn’t white and is Muslim, why stop there? Why not forceably repatriate white British ex-pats from their preferred country of residence? All those thousands of Brits currently living in Australia, Spain, USA, UAE etc would be repatriated. Just how beneficial would that be to anyone? Migration in and out of every country is very carefully monitored and controlled and yet not impossible. If you want to forcibly expel anyone who isn’t a white Anglican and deny British people the right to leave, you will turn the UK into a version of North Korea.

          • mohdanga

            “I predict a general decline in the numbers of observant Muslims from a very low start point.”
            From the Telegraph:
            “Around a third of young British Muslims favour killing in the name of Islam, according to a survey revealed by the WikiLeaks’ publication of U.S. diplomatic cables.
            A survey of 600 Muslim students at 30 universities throughout Britain found that 32 per cent of Muslim respondents believed killing in the name of religion is justified.
            A U.S. diplomatic cable from January 2009 quoted a poll by the Centre for Social Cohesion as saying 54 per cent wanted a Muslim party to represent their world view in Parliament and 40 per cent want Muslims in the UK to be under Sharia law.”
            Yup, seems like the younger ones will integrate….

            “When you compare London to other capital cities, the mix between the ethnicities is fairly similar because London, like most other capitals and large cities, is cosmopolitan by nature. So, London is not unusual in this respect.” So, Paris, Berlin, Warsaw, Rome, Madrid, etc all have minority French, German, Polish, Italian and Spanish? Uhh, no. London used to be 99% white yet was still ‘cosmopolitan’, it doesn’t need a vast influx of foreigners.

          • Joe Connolly

            “So, encouraging people to take up arms is just plain ludicrous and dangerous.”
            Absolutely but it seems to be a pretty successful strategy in Muslim communities across the world.

          • Amgine

            Well, I’m really not a fan of any religion. But I don’t think that two wrongs make a right. So I would “fight” any dogma (political or religious) using science, reason, discussion and debate.

          • nobamunism

            How quaint. Muslims lop peoples heads off in broad daylight. They aren’t quaint.

  • Joe Connolly

    Will the wretched Michael Howard step forward and give his view of these events?

    • Joe Connolly

      Oh and let’s remember that according to the BBC two weeks ago, the largest foreign contingent in the brutal ISIS forces are….British. Or so their passports say.

      http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-27573376

      • Amgine

        Where, on that link, does it say that the Europeans fighting on behalf of ISIL have British passports? I see some assertions and a fair amount of hyperbole and rhetoric but not many links to actual data. If some Europeans are going off to fight in another country’s civil war, they are likely to be killed and unlikely to make it back to Europe. If they do, as with the case cited in the article, they are likely to end up in a UK prison. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-27488006

        Mercenaries going off to fight in foreign wars is really not a new thing. Loads of Brits went to fight in the Spanish civil war and many came back and didn’t continue their blood lust by killing their own countrymen.

        • Joe Connolly

          Naivety or disingenuousness?

          You want ‘hard data’ rather than the views of someone much closer to the situation than we are and evidently considered fairly reliable by the BBC? My friend sometimes one has to rely on impressionistic evidence.

          If people in Britain today can seriously equate the International Brigade in the Spanish civil war with the Islamic State of Iraq and Syria, then woe betide us.

          Actually some Communists did continue with their struggles after returning. But suicide bombers, Jihadis, etc are qualitatively different from them and you ought to be able to see this.

          • Amgine

            Where on the link does it say that Europeans fighting on behalf of ISIL have British passports?

          • Joe Connolly

            If they are British and travelling to the Middle East, then it is a reasonable assumption that they do. Which is why the Foreign Office and the Home Office are on the look out for them. And why the letter appeared in The Times. I am curious about why you insist so hard. Liberal multicultural dysfunctionality or do you have some specific motivation? There is a danger. You ought to be able to see it.

          • Amgine

            I just don’t like to see assertions being used without hard evidence. I’m actually very opposed to the dogma of Islam but I really want to make sure I’m being consistently careful about where I pick up my data and I’ve been seeing far too many badly researched blogs, articles, opinion-pieces and comments.

            You made a claim and linked a relevant article that didn’t appear to be anything but assertion. I require evidence. I need more than the opinion of someone with a vested interest one way or the other.

          • Joe Connolly

            Well let’s wait and see. ISIS is an undeniable reality. So too is the rise of Islamism in formerly secular parts of the Middle East. British officialdom turned a blind eye to it for decades, denying that it was happening or even claiming it might be a good thing. And now look! Coming soon perhaps to a town centre near you. We shall see.

          • Amgine

            So it’s a matter of faith then. Unless I believe I won’t be able to see the truth. The arguments put forward are so similar to religious dogma and unsubstantiated faith claims. I don’t like dogma of any kind.

          • Joe Connolly

            It seems you not only know rather little about the Middle East and Islam, you are evidently innocent of the central problem of philosophy: that of knowledge.

            For all you know, I may be an illusion.

            I notice that some of your statements (e.g. about the future of Britain) are highly historicist. But I hope you are right.

          • Amgine

            I will admit, I’m ignorant of so much but my way to learn is to find out stuff rather than simply accept what I’m told on faith.

  • SewAShearedKilo

    Comment in error.

    • Joe Connolly

      Indeed and we should not forget this or push the secularists and moderates into a ghetto (one reason for using polite language). But unfortunately there is abundant evidence that others see their presence here as part of a jihad to Islamise the land.

  • nobamunism

    A little dose of islamophobia would do Britain good.

  • aurila

    what was the point of commemorating D-Day or WWI?

    • Amgine

      What’s your point?

  • Heather McFarlane

    I would like to subscribe ONLY to your online product. I live in Canada, and do not want to buy the print edition. How do I sign up???

    • Joe Connolly

      Thank you subscription department for rushing to inform Helen.

      As a former Kindle subscriber I would like to know how to subscribe in a way which enables me to see the ‘below the line’ comments, which in the Spectator are better than most

  • Augustus

    Has anyone ever known another Britain? One where you could safely walk the streets, where solidarity prevailed in neighbourhoods, where you could leave your back door open without any problem, where there was some respect for a policeman and one’s teacher. A Britain where discipline and decorum prevailed, where neighbours were willing to help each other in emergencies. A Britain that wasn’t marred by Arabic blasts from the mosques which sprung up like mushrooms. That Britain which no longer exists.

    • Amgine

      I don’t think I’ve ever felt unsafe walking anywhere in the bits of UK I’ve lived. And I’ve generally lived in neighbourhoods & communities that have been safe and, on the whole, community-spirited. I only had problems when I moved into a close-knit street where my family was treated as outsiders from the day we turned up to the day we left… and one of my neighbour’s kids shot my cat and vandalized my pond. That was a fully white, working class community so they had solidarity and weren’t very welcoming… we left as soon as we could. Other than that experience, I’ve not had any problems anywhere else I’ve lived.

      • Joe Connolly

        Oh, and if anyone is still looking at this string, ITV has got in on the act too.

        http://www.itv.com/news/update

        No point in feeling vindicated—this is a desperately serious situation.

      • leftist Royalty

        cough cough …. bull s*^ t

        • Amgine

          My cat survived, thanks for your concern.

  • Joe Connolly

    Amgine,

    Still no empirical data, but whoever primes the pump at the BBC does seem worried that there could be a problem

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-27947343

    Surely relaxing and not worrying is also an act of faith? And perhaps not a very wise one?

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  • Parritaman

    I’m totally confused about why British politicians pander to radical Islam, to the point of Islam taking control of the government by 2050. It is mathmatically impossible to stop this from happening. Every European country will be taken over by radical Islam. These politicians should be charged with treason and jailed.

  • Marky_D

    Of course all faith schools seek to inculcate the religions values into their students. The problem with Islamic faith schools is that their values are entirely at odds to British values.
    When a catholic child leaves school full of catholic values they, at the most extreme, are pro-life, pro-marriage, believe in turning the other cheek and loving thy neighbour. When a muslim child leaves school full of Islamic values they, at the most extreme, are pro violent jihad, believe non muslim females are all prostitutes, believe all decent women should be covered in a bin bag and should have great chunks of their private parts hacked away so they never enjoy sex.
    Big difference.

  • Frank Black

    Birmingham muzzis kick off, 300 involved, in fighting, one dead of gun shot.

  • Frank Black

    Muslims commit racist attack upon two black men, nearly beat them to death with baseball bats.

    Ramadam spirit.

  • miford

    Another excellent article from Douglas Murray. If only half of the country’s journalists had his intelligence and integrity, we might get somewhere.

  • Lydia Robinson

    “We must be willing to confront the challenge. In recent days, some pointless secularists have aimed the discussion in the wrong direction. They have tried to distract everyone by pretending that all faith schools are Trojan Horse schools in waiting — as though the way to deal with Islamic radicals is to close Church of England schools.”
    It’s much easier to deal with this threat if all state schools were secular as in France. Even the ECHR has upheld the ban on the hijab and the niqab in France on the grounds that theirs is a secular society where social cohesion is a principle of their constitution. Voila! End of problem. Over here, the human rights lawyers would have a field day because it would look like religious discrimination.

  • Hello?

    Only a monster would ask their child to display a severed human head for a twitter shot. Clearly these are odious cultist lunatics no better than the followers of Charles Manson, not devout Muslims simply worshiping.

  • Mia Seths

    I’m liberal and consider Islam to be on par with Nazism. Islam should be redefined as a cult or political ideology, Muslims should not be allowed to immigrate into the West, and mosques should be destroyed. Islam is a treat to everything liberals value.

  • Mia Seths

    I have no faith iin our politicians. They will never do the right thing, they will do the easy, expedient thing which is to sell us out. We need to prepare for the same violence that Islam has brought to every other part of the world. The only difference between the West and the rest of the world is that our politicians invited the Muslims into our lands.

  • TKO

    The Islamists saw that Britain was a country whose value system was increasingly being steered by liberals and atheists. In the last 20 years, Britain has devolved to such a degree that Christian-based values, national pride and cultural traditions have been stripped away in an effort to create a more “diverse” society. Yet, a society can only become diverse if the minorities, the prime benefactors, are just as willing as the majority to toss away their cultural traditions in order to assimilate and become unified. Unfortunately, we turned a deaf ear to historians such as Bernard Lewis, who for years told us that the Islamists planned to take over Europe through high birth rates, immigration and the use of petro dollars. Mark Curtis told us that the UK actively imported Islamists during the 1990s in an effort to maintain influence over the Middle East. The Islamists have already declared war on Christianity and the West. When will our leaders wake up and realize that the game is almost over?

  • Geraint Hughes

    Ban all teaching of Jihad in schools. Re-write Quran!

  • Larry

    18yrs ago I wrote to the BBC stating that muslims had taken over the students unions in our universities but it was never mentioned since then I have written several times & was totally ignored the BBc prefers to be a propaganda machine for the palestinians & show no shame for what went on in gaza after 9/11 Not PC but yellow

  • Larry

    VOTE UKIP

  • Doctor Benway

    In 2007, a disgruntled Muslim teacher blew the whistle on the privately
    run King Fahad Academy in Acton, West London, alerting us to the fact
    that extreme textbooks in Arabic were being used at the school. The
    materials (from the Saudi ministry of education, incidentally) called
    Jews and Christians ‘apes and pigs’ and included test questions such as
    ‘Give examples of worthless religions such as Judaism, Christianity,
    idol-worship and others’. An Ofsted report a year earlier had declared
    the school’s teaching of Islam to be ‘mostly good’.
    This says a lot .

  • DNACowboy

    Liberal progressives have systematically destroyed the United Kingdom, they have for reasons known only to themselves, taken an extremely successful country full of exceptional people and promoted Soviet-era ideology and terminology to the detriment of us all. Any counter arguments have been shouted down and the people concerned demonised.
    Essentially, UK politicians have had an absence of mind, abrogated their responsibility to young ethnic groups and put us all in terrible danger. Liberal politicians have continually over the last 20 years broken down the structures and foundations that were the cement that held us together, the Church, schooling with reasonable and fair discipline, taking responsibility for ones own actions, not looked for excuses and when that failed doing the right thing.

    It is my belief that unless we act and fast the. country is finished, we will be placed on the bonfire of our own making thanks to a policy of appeasement anddemands to tolerate the intolerable, and when the nation sinks beneath the waves those that interfered and fiddled with the foundations will crawl back under their rocks content that the country they hated so much is finished.
    Other nations can then ask why was it that the British let those full of self hatred be allowed into positions of authority and responsibility, turning that self-hatred onto the nation that educated, housed and probably employed them.

  • dennis richardson

    Traditional English people with protestant back grounds are welcome to come to America as long as you agree to stop democrats from promoting this asinine Islamic invasion here. Let the Islamic Muslims eat (literally like cannibals) the British Royal family as well as the House of Lord members and other elites for breakfast, lunch and dinner. They deserve each other. Here in America we can listen to their screams for mercy over an open microphone radio transmitter for days and weeks.

  • Snowmuncher

    Mathew Paris is such a naive old dinosaur clueless about the true nature of Islam in the UK and abroad. He should read the article in the Spectator written by Innes Bowen and then the Pew Research Center study from 2013 about attitudes and opinions of Muslims around the world – for example that the vast majority (89% of Pakistanis – from where so many of UK’s non-EU migrants come) believe in stoning to death for adultery. Then check out what Sharia law says about rape – how it is proven and when it is justified.

  • http://newworldparty.org/ NewWorldParty.org

    “Britishness is meant to be about being ‘tolerant’ and ‘diverse’”

    This boggles the mind. Why is Britain being tolerant to such intolerance?

    Top 6 Things that the World should do with Muslim Migrants
    http://www.newworldparty.org/2016/03/top-6-things-that-world-should-do-with.html

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