Features

Who runs our mosques?

In America, most mosques profess to teach a version of Islam adapted to the modern world. That's not what I've found here...

14 June 2014

8:00 AM

14 June 2014

8:00 AM

The introduction of a madrassa curriculum at a secular state school in Birmingham and talk of Christian pupils at risk of ‘cultural isolation’ seem to have come as a revelation to non-Muslim Britain. They should not have. Islam in Britain is dominated by a very specific, and rather illiberal, version of the faith — one that, if anything, seems to be becoming more conservative over time.

As the Muslim population became more established, one might have assumed that a westernised form of Islam would have come to dominate Britain’s mosques. According to a database of British Islam, however, only two out of 1,700 mosques in Britain follow modernist interpretations of the Koran. It’s not the same elsewhere in the West. In a 2011 survey of Islam in the United States, 56 per cent of mosques described themselves as following an interpretation of Islam adapted to modern circumstances. This has not happened in Britain.

For the past seven years I have spent my spare time travelling around the UK, talking to Islamic leaders and grass-roots followers, trying to find out more about the structure of Islam in Britain. In the main, I have been treated with courtesy — and often with warmth.

As a liberal, however, it took some getting used to the environments into which I have been welcomed. At virtually every Islamic gathering I have attended, men and women have been seated separately. Even at social events in relatively middle-of-the-road mosques, a sheet will be hung across the hall, with women and children eating on one side and men on the other.

The management committees which run the mosques are usually men-only (or at least male-dominated). And these are the relatively liberal mosques, insofar as they allow women on the premises. Around a quarter of mosques in the UK do not. (What, I wonder, would our reaction be if a network of men-only churches were to spring up in Britain?) Most Muslim men will shake my hand — but, to avoid embarrassment, I have learnt not to be the first one to extend my arm.

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So which Islamic schools of thought run Britain’s mosques today? The influence of Saudi Arabia’s Wahhabi movement is often cited. But the Wahhabis — or Salafis as they prefer to be called — control just 6 per cent of mosques.

The largest single group — the one which arguably gives Islam in Britain much of its character — is the Deobandi. It controls around 45 per cent of Britain’s mosques and nearly all the UK-based training of Islamic scholars. What most Deobandi scholars have in common is a conservative interpretation of Islamic law: television and music for the purposes of entertainment, for example, are frowned upon if not banned. Women are advised not to emerge from their homes any more than is necessary.

The advice section of the website of Mufti Muhammed ibn Adam al-Kawthari, one of the Deobandis’ leading British-born, UK-trained Islamic scholars, gives a flavour of this group’s approach to living as a Muslim in the West. One follower posts a question asking whether it is permissible to wear a tie to work if asked to do so by one’s employer. The scholar says it is permissible but warns that it is better to ‘avoid the dress of the unbelievers’, so the wearing of the tie should be confined to work. Women followers are advised that it is necessary to cover their faces in ‘normal’ situations and that it is generally impermissible for them to travel a distance of more than 48 miles unless accompanied by a male relative (even if the purpose is to attend a religious gathering).

There is a good reason why this interpretation of Islam sounds so similar to that of Afghanistan: the Taleban movement grew out of the Deobandi madrassas of Pakistan.  Tony Blair justified to the Muslim world the post-9/11 attacks on Afghanistan on the basis that driving out the Taleban would be an act of liberation: ‘I don’t believe,’ he said, ‘that anybody seriously wants to live under that kind of regime.’ Did he realise that the rules enforced by law in Afghanistan were being adopted, voluntarily, in parts of Leicester, Dewsbury and Blackburn? Even the Prime Minister seemed not to know about Deobandi Britain.

The culture of the Deobandis has raised the orthodoxy bar for Britain’s other Muslim networks. The first generation of Sufi women who came from Pakistan tended to throw a shawl loosely over their heads when they left the house. Their pious daughters and granddaughters are more likely to show not a single hair in public. Among Britain’s main Islamic groups, only the Ismaili followers of the Aga Khan believe there is no obligation to wear the veil.

Many of the Islamic groups I have encountered see no contradiction between their religious identity and loyalty to Britain. At a Sufi circle I attended, followers included the Queen in their prayers. When asked whether it was permissible for a Muslim to join MI6, they answered without hesitation that their sheikh had told them it was.  A leading member of a gated community of Bohras — a conservative Ismaili sect — told me proudly that one of their number had joined the RAF. The Bohras’ worldwide leader had advised them that to love one’s country is part of one’s faith.

But such willingness to integrate is less evident among the Deobandis. The movement was, after all, founded in colonial India to protect Muslim identity from British influence. Its early leaders were involved in a plot to support Britain’s first world war enemies to overthrow imperial rule. The history is reinforced by religious ideology: Mufti al-Kawthari echoes the views of other Deobandi scholars when he advises followers on his website that, while one should be polite to non-Muslims, one should not take them as close friends.

For all its ferocity, the debate about British Islam does not seem to have developed much over the years. Successive governments have sought to boot out foreign imams and deny visas to radical clerics as if they were dealing with a contagion. It is, perhaps, time to stop blaming foreigners. Illiberal Islam is thoroughly British these days.


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Innes Bowen’s book, Medina in Birmingham, Najaf in Brent: Inside British Islam, is out this week. Buy it from the Spectator bookshop at a special discounted price of £14.99, including free delivery.

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Show comments
  • Mahmud

    If Muslims don’t want to be close friends with you…..it’s their choice, why do you care?

    If Muslim women want to wear a veil….it’s their choice…..why do you care?

    If masjids are gender segregated-it’s their masjid, they can do what they want…..why do you care?

    If Muslim students willingly sit separately from each other at Islamic events they organize….that is their choice…..why do you care?

    Just bugger off why don’t you?

    -Californian Muslim

    • Fasdunkle

      Exactly – well said – and if some people want to live apart and follow an ossified set of petty and regressive rules they shouldn’t be surprised if others are suspicious of them and regard them negatively

    • Damaris Tighe

      I didn’t use to care & defended the wearing of the veil if that was the woman’s choice. I’ve since come to see that it is not a choice for many Muslim women because they have it imposed on them. I’ve also come to see that it is very dangerous for a large minority to separate out in this way. With ultra-orthodox Jews it doesn’t matter as they are a very tiny group who keep to themselves They are harmless. With a large Muslim population, elements of which continually push to ‘rearrange the furniture’ of the home in which they’re guests, it’s dangerous.

      • Randall Cheuvront

        right some say it’s purely a willing act by women but when you have it shoved at you in your family, mosque, etc from birth of course you’re going to do it in most cases. why risk the scorn or worse? it’s not a choice. the choice was made for those women.

        • Damaris Tighe

          Exactly – I used to be very libertarian about the issue, whilst hating the veil defending their right to wear it. I now see it as political act which must be resisted.

      • Kitty MLB

        That person has had their comment removed,
        I saw it earlier this morning .
        Agree with your response.He was suggesting that
        a women would chose to wear a Burka or Veil,
        like women even matter.
        And that if Muslims wish to separate themselves
        from the rest of us that its none of our business..
        Like we have no say or choice in our own country.

        • Damaris Tighe

          I think there’s a balance to be had. There’s a lot of talk about British values at the moment. Well one of the old ones was privacy – the idea that an Englishman’s home is his castle. This used to be contrasted with continental Europe. So I do think that the British way is to limit the majority’s intrusion into the privacy of the minority. HOWEVER, the whole idea of Britain & the British has been deconstructed because we were never asked whether we wanted very large numbers of new neighbours in the first place.

          • global city

            That is a fine principle to uphold, when it is not being tested to destruction.

      • itbeso

        With ultra-orthodox Jews it doesn’t matter as they are a very tiny group who keep to themselves & ‘mind their own business’.They are harmless.
        That’s fallacial argument from numbers. It matters to those women whose lives are narrowed curtailed and narrowly proscibed. If they numbered 5 million instead of 55,000 would you be so casual. If it’s a only few women having a life of endless child bearing imposed on them without their slightest say in the matter is that ok?

        • MissDemeanor

          an ultra orthodox jewish woman can leave her faith, and she’ll still be alive 5 minutes later!

          • global city

            Jews do not proselytise and/or demand submission.

          • Alexsandr

            The jews holy book does not say apotasy should be punishable by death. Unlike this:-

            They wish you would disbelieve as they disbelieved so you would be alike. So do not take from among them allies until they emigrate for the cause of Allah . But if they turn away, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them and take not from among them any ally or helper. Koran 4:89

          • itbeso

            I said no such thing, the equivalence is yours. However the lesser evil is still an evil and much of what goes on in the ulra othordox jewish community mirrors many islamic communities in this country.

  • Damaris Tighe

    I have the same response to segregated seating in mosques & schools as I have to that in orthodox Jewish synagogues (I’m a non-practicing Jew): sexes separated on either side of the room ok (this was quite common practice in some school lessons in state schools not that long ago); women at the back or upstairs or insulted in some other way definitely not.

  • Damaris Tighe

    I like the sufis: there’s a lot of pre-islamic Christian & Zoroastrian mysticism incorporated into their beliefs & I suspect it developed as a way for people subjected by Islam to follow a more benign spiritual path without being murdered as apostates. This hasn’t always worked & sufi shrines have been destroyed in Libya & Syria by orthodox muslim fanatics.

    • JamesKalima

      Exactly, Sufism and Ismailism has as much to do with Islam as Judaism and Christianity has to do with God!

      • Fasdunkle

        And what does your islamo-fascism have to do with a god?

      • Damaris Tighe

        Of course you wouldn’t like sufism – there would be too much joy & love of life in it for you, death-worshipper.

    • Ortega

      I like the sufis: there’s a lot of pre-islamic Christian & Zoroastrian mysticism incorporated into their beliefs

      I know this is a popular theory but it really has no basis in historical fact. Zoroastrianism is a metaphysically dualistic religion and the Sufis are uniformly and fiercely anti-dualistic. Additionally, one of the main religious expressions of the Sufis is erotic-poetry which I doubt came from Christian influence. There’s no Sufi expressions or practices that would not have already been present in the culture that the early Arabian Muslims lived in. Much of the erotic poetry for example is influenced by pre-Islamic Arab poetry rather than anything from Persia or the Levant.

      & I suspect it developed as a way for people subjected by Islam to follow a more benign spiritual path

      Again, this isn’t historical. The original “Sufis” were actually the puritans of their day. They were just muslims who engaged in extra acts of piety and lived simply (cheap clothes etc), to isolate themselves from mainstream Abbasid society which they saw as impious and hedonistic. They probably practiced the Shariah more strictly than the majority of muslims of their time.

  • Randall Cheuvront

    if they only wish to socialize with other muslims then why move to a land of a different culture and people you basically don’t like? people care because they aren’t interested in sharing their homelands with people who don’t want to be part of their society and culture. western society has gone through a lot to gain equal access and rights for people of both genders and allowing a culture to profess otherwise live among you is a slap to the face. everything you enjoy in the western world is due to the west and it’s culture, attitudes and freedom. that’s always the irony of muslims who enjoy all we have to offer while condemning the people and the society that made it possible to be made. a little hypocrisy mixed into that attitude.

    • Damaris Tighe

      Most muslims came to Europe for economic, not cultural, reasons. I don’t blame them for this, who wouldn’t? I blame the idiotic short-sighted politicians who (in the UK at least) were persuaded by their wealthy mill-owning supporters. The UK mills collapsed anyway within a decade or two leaving the north with a third-world population of muslims with no jobs. A recipe for disaster.

      • JamesKalima

        Most Muslims came because that pencil you have between your legs is not capable of sustaining your economy, and situation is even worse now. And the reason you are here is exactly because of your cultural and religious practice, so in essence you can say your religion and culture killed you. But I doubt you will understand the reference, it is bit beyond your capabilities of comprehension.

        • Fasdunkle

          According to the ONS and 2011 Census only 55% of muslims in the UK are economically active – the lowest in the UK – people with no religion are the most economically active at 74%

          • JamesKalima

            According to Huffinton post “British Muslims contribute more than £31 billion to the UK economy and wield a spending power of £20.5 billion, a new report has found.” In any population sample only percentage is active active contributors, and higher number does not mean higher contribution, it varies from community to community. Why don’t you post a comparable sample with other control groups, lets see if you can do that! Lets compare it with members of EDL!

          • Fasdunkle

            I provided the figures from the ONS about the most and least economically active “belief” groups. Where did the huffington post get their figures from?

          • JamesKalima

            Ask them! Provide a link to comparison, not interested in your allegations!

          • Fasdunkle

            I have stated what the ONS have said based on the 2011 Census figures.

          • itbeso

            “a spending power of £20.5 billion”

            Well benefits can mount up.

          • Lindum

            That is £6,600 for each muslim. Is that supposed to be a great contribution?

          • MissDemeanor

            i wonder how much money is spent in the UK alone on security, MI5, MI6, special police, spying, anti terrorist training, etc etc

            i also wonder how come over 50% of male muslims in the uk, and over 80% of female muslims are on benefits..?

          • Kangeroo

            WHY? Because they do not respect you and they want nothing but exploitation. They are like termites in a wooden barn.

          • ArthurSparknottle

            Where does that figure come from?

          • MissDemeanor

            EDL????

            every comment you make, you just show your stupidity and limited cerebral capacity more and more

            so the UK is made up of rich Muslims and poor EDL members – no other people here?

          • Kangeroo

            EXPEL THE FOREIGNERS! That’s all that counts. Its survival mode.

          • Lindum

            That is £6,600 for each muslim. Is that supposed to be a contribution? Most must be on the dole.

        • Damaris Tighe

          You must be confusing me with you – I don’t have anything like a pencil between my legs.

        • MissDemeanor

          you’re so delusional it’s so much fun!

          you know why the ‘Arab Spring’ started?
          high food prices and poverty!

          if the west raised the price of wheat, entire muslim countries would just starve within 1 year

          • Kangeroo

            Er…..uh….is that a suggestion? There’s more than one way to skin a cat.

        • Alexsandr

          WW2 had nothing to do with it then?

  • Jenson Phaedor

    White Western people telling Muslims who they are. Cute.

    • Damaris Tighe

      Yes, it’s amazing how many western ‘experts’, conservative as well as liberal, there are on Islam. Remember Bush & Cameron telling us that it’s a religion of peace even before the blood had dried after the latest atrocity?

    • Shazza

      Muslims telling indigenous British people that they should live according to islam. Cute.

    • MissDemeanor

      muslims telling the civilised world how they’re the ‘religion of peace’ while slitting throats, throwing acid and beheading ppl

      cute

    • Guest

      what’s wrong with that?

      we know exactly who you are: ungrateful, rabid psychotic parasites

      next question!

  • zanzamander

    As the Muslim population became more established, one might have assumed
    that a westernised form of Islam would have come to dominate Britain’s
    mosques.

    On what evidence did you assume that? Did Islam morph into an African, Pakistani, Indian, Indonesian or Chinese versions of Islam as the Muslim populations in those countries became more established?

    Why do liberal Westerners always presume that Islam will somehow be different in the West than how it is practiced elsewhere in the Islamic world? This is the height of arrogance that will ultimately lead to our downfall.

    • JamesKalima

      Good point this will never happen! Islam is religion of God, and it will not morph in to something that satan peddles.

      • Fasdunkle

        satan rides a bike?

        • MissDemeanor

          i thought Satan rides a camel…

          • JamesKalima

            Your mom is camel? It was obvious!

          • MissDemeanor

            I’m not your sister, so no.

          • JamesKalima

            No cu .. nt is my sister and I was not asking it was rhetorical!

      • MissDemeanor

        Islam IS satanic

        wherever there is Islam, there is death and misery

        Muslims can;t live in peace with anybody: Sikhs, Hindus, Buddhists, Jews (nice avatar btw, gonna send some money to the IDF in your name), and even other Muslims

        all they do is kill – Islam is a satanic death cult created by a pedophile warlord, and it’s aimed at the lowest common denominators of humanity, and they show it every single day

        • JamesKalima

          You don’t have to know great deal of history or go vary far back to know what a crock of shit that is. Last few major wars are sufficient. The number of civilians America killed in single war in vietnam outweighs the number of civilians killed by muslims in entire 20th century and that is according to Juan Cole a professor of history and he is American and he tallied the numbers for retards in your category!

          Who else took over two continent and wiped indigenous population. Even Mongols can’t claim to kill 20 million people in one war let alone if you tally all the others. People who crucify their “god” so people can go around do what ever they want, telling how lovely they are, seriously!

          • MissDemeanor

            oh well, if muslims are so peaceful and their countries so great, WTF do you ppl come to our western countries for then?

            stay in your sh!!holes then

            p.s.: if you google how many ppl have been killed in the name of Islam, the number that comes up is so shocking and scary, that it makes everything you wrote in comparison seem like child’s play

            pps: we don;t care if you kill each other – just stay the F out of our countries

            pps.: LONG LIVE ISRAEL! tehehe

          • Damaris Tighe

            Amen

          • JamesKalima

            It is because you can’t pop out enough runts, so you need us and with that IQ, you definitely need a lot of help. None of these countries are Muslims, but they are coming till than long live Israel, and that is not very long! We will provide the final solution, Insha’Allah!

          • MissDemeanor

            you troglodyte arabs have been screaming for over 70 years how you’re going to destroy Israel – what’s taking you so long?

            LOOOL

            while young Israelis are selling computer technologies for billions each months and Israel is becoming stronger and richer, with the most developed military in the entire world, YOUR people gas each other and eat each other’s organs and film it to put it on your tube!!! You’re talking about IQ?

            funny guy

            Yeah sure, Allah is on your side, that’s why he has muslims killing muslims and destroying their own countries.

            btw, a donation has been made in your name to the Friends of Israel Defence Force, so cheers, Professor!

            Bwaahahaha

          • Damaris Tighe

            ha ha ha wonderful MissDemeanor! I can feel another donation to the Friends of our boys & girls in the IDF coming on! Am Yisroel Chai!

          • Terry Field

            Ubuntu!
            Bunmba DIngiwembi!!

          • global city

            Out of your own mouths you provide the evidence that condemns you. The loony left have not listened for 30 years, but everyone else now is.

          • JamesKalima

            You assume that I am in need of you something! You are giving your self too much credit. As far how you need to adjust your self, left or right, does not concern me! Go a head a do it, you want to kick out Muslim kick out, you want to massacre them, go a head nothing surprising.

            You don’t even know what I am talking about. West over all does not have enough population to sustain, you have no choice but bring in immigration. Simply put, that little pencil dick you have is not capable of producing enough to keep you going and most of you are old and dying, no wonder you produce all the porn but can’t get it up and it is our children you corrupt!

          • global city

            I was just passing time while waiting for the next world cup game to come on!

            You’re an idiot, Muslim or not.

            You also think that reproduction rates has something to do with virility? You have no children. You’ve probably never had sex, at least with a willing partner.

            Backward people are no longer going to be allowed into the country, so there’s the end of your take over by stealth and rape.

          • Fasdunkle

            “that is according to Juan Cole”

            lol

          • Damaris Tighe

            same old … same old … Stalin was an atheist & Hitler a pagan; the indigenous people of South America were not wiped out by the catholics, they’re still there – look at the faces of the so-called latinos & that of the president of Bolivia.

          • JamesKalima

            Latin America is divided between european and natives, and President of Bolivia’s election is fine example of colonialism. Try again idiot!

          • Damaris Tighe

            1) I said that the natives are still there (in their millions), they haven’t been wiped out. How does the presence of the descendants of europeans change that? 2)How does the fact that the President of Bolivia is a ‘fine example of the defeat of colonialism’ affect my point that he is an example of the continued existence of the natives?

            You become more idiotic with each comment.

          • Terry Field

            Ignoramus

        • Fergus Mason

          “Islam is a satanic death cult”

          Actually Satanists worship life. It’s the Abrahamic god, Yahweh, who’s obsessed with death.

      • Guest

        ‘Islam is the religion of God’

        looks like God hates you!

        • MissDemeanor

          yeah, God always dreamed of having a pedophile rabid nutter as one of his prophets….

          • JamesKalima

            Lets see an example of it in Midrash

            Said Rabbi Joseph, “Come and take note: A girl three years and one day old is betrothed by intercourse. And if a Levir has had intercourse with her, he has acquired her. And one can be liable on her account because of the law prohibiting intercourse with a married woman. And she imparts uncleanness to him who has intercourse with her when she is menstruating, to convey uncleanness to the lower as to the upper layer [of what lies beneath]. If she was married to a priest, she may eat food in the status of priestly rations. If one of those who are unfit for marriage with her had intercourse with her, he has rendered her unfit to marry into the priesthood. If any of those who are forbidden in the Torah to have intercourse with her had intercourse with her, he is put to death on her account, but she is free of responsibility [M.Nid. 5:4]. Sanhedrin 7/55B [132]

            No wonder you guys want a Israel to be Jewish!

            Enjoy!

          • Fasdunkle

            16 is the age of consent in Israel – the laws there don’t come from old books of myths and folk tales – that is usually left to islamo-fascist states

          • JamesKalima

            Yes, the above is expert from Islamic text, right! Genius! I wonder how the rabbis would classify jewish prophets now that you have defined the age for them? Should we be looking forward to another made up history like holocaust?

            It is amazing how shallow you people defence is, it does not take much for you guys to end up cutting your own legs.

          • Fasdunkle

            I don’t care what rabbis says – I care what the Jewish state says.

            lol, denying the holocaust as well? You’ll be telling us the crusades actually happened next.

          • MissDemeanor

            oh, a holocaust denier, i see

            you should really go to Israel you know, it’s such an amazing country, filled with wealthy ex pats who are supporting and helping the Israeli economy so Israel can continue to flourish like it has been doing.

            jews HELP jews, you see?

            while muslims KILL muslims

            oh man, I wish you could see how amazing Israel is, you’d have an aneurism there and then

            meanwhile, around Israel…….

          • JamesKalima

            Holocaust is an industry, and its suffering is exploited by jews to beat up white people and extract money, and couple that with the apartheid practices of Israeli Zionazis and you created recipe to devalue it yourself. That is not new, Zionist have been devaluing life from the days of holocaust, it is part of their religion. Lot of jews are starting to talk about it and if you head over to youtube you can see how Christians are treated in Israel. It is not easy time for Hasbara propaganda agent. No injustice can exist forever, and God sent no people more prophets than the jews but God will also make you the example, holocaust was a sampler, but you are people will never learned, and is ticking and little puppets are falling, so wait for your turn we will tell you how amazing Palestine is!

          • Guest

            ^ you truly are a cockroach and nothing more ^

          • JamesKalima

            This is what Israel Shahak has to say, I thought you would like it so chew on it bit .. ch!

            “Anyone who gives the matter the least thought must be forced to the conclusion that there exist two Jewish Holocausts, the true and the false. If Canada intends to memorialize the true Jewish Holocaust, then we must all be for it; if the false, then we must all be against it. Canada must avoid building a Holocaust museum which — in Israel Shahak’s words — promotes “the myth of the Holocaust” or “the falsification of the Holocaust” and which will be like Israel’s Yad Vashem, “truly beneath contempt.”

          • MissDemeanor

            yeah yeah

            YAAAAAAAWN

            been saying that for 70 years………it’s getting pretty boring

          • global city

            All of the Abrahamic religions are just stories for backward and superstitious people. The thing that should embarrass you is that the Islamic one is by far the least convincing, so full of holes and clearly a hothpotch of others previous stories and yet you’ve fallen for it, hook, line and sinker.

          • MissDemeanor

            cutting our own legs?

            what are we, muslims??!

          • MissDemeanor

            you returd!

            Israeli law does not adhere to a book written thousands of years ago in the desert!

            Unlike Muslims, Jews are enlightened people

            i don;t care what 1 rabbi once said!
            Look at how millions of muslims are behaving, how many of the 57 muslim countries have the legal age of consent for a girl to be married at age 12?

            in Israel you’d get thrown into jail for that

            but look who I’m talking to: just your avatar says all about you anybody needs to know

          • JamesKalima

            Here are your enlightened people!

            watch?v=UZIrtn0F1B4

            Enjoy!

          • MissDemeanor

            you think i’m even going to watch any link posted by a holocaust denying parasite??

            LOOL

            you made it clear that you’re not to be taken seriously, just pitied and resented – poor returd

          • JSMillennium

            Dear James
            Until recently I was considering writing a novel or short story about a character whose unappealing personality, lack of success and abiding self-loathing lead him to lead a sort of half-life, ranting obsessively and rather ineffectually on sites like this.
            I abandoned the idea because I thought readers would not find such a distasteful character remotely plausible, let alone interesting.
            Having read some of your fascinating posts though, I’m beginning to have second thoughts about that…

          • JamesKalima

            Blah Blah, stupid! I stopped at you considering writing a novel. My foot can write a better novel than you!

          • JSMillennium

            Thank you for your considered and insightful post.
            On further reflection, perhaps you are right; capturing such a character in prose does seem too much of a challenge – some things really are too bad to be true.
            Thanks anyway for providing me with food for thought.
            All the best.

          • Guest

            difference is: jews don’t worship a pedophile as their prophet!

          • Terry Field

            Your texts are as cracked as well. Ancient ideas are bizarre when tested against current social views. Yours included.

          • JamesKalima

            I consider in general all of the western norms and cultures inferior and in some instances putrid, but I don’t find it necessary to give you guys lecture over it.

          • chucky

            Of course you “consider in general all of the western norms and cultures inferior and in some instances putrid”! Because you’re clearly not of sound mind.

            What else would we expect, when your ‘prophet’ mohammed was a filthy child rapist?!

          • JamesKalima

            At least we can make an excuse about Muhammad (pbuh) or Jesus’s (pbuh) step father, a 90 year old, who married his mother at the age of 13, it is out of time and place but what does 1200 Catholic priest accused of child molestation say about your culture? See, how easy it is to rub your face in the dirt! I am one guy against hordes of morons and yet none of you can come up with decent reason to hold your ground, except generalization, anachronism and just stupidity!

          • chucky

            You pathetic, ignorant retard.

            Not only do your mob of morally bankrupt degenerates actually WORSHIP a child rapist, you completely ignore the fact that when incidents of impropriety occur within the western Christian (or secular) community, the overwhelming majority of that community rallies AGAINST those actions – whereas when incidents of impropriety occur within the islamic community, the overwhelming majority of that community bands together to PROTECT those responsible! Bloody disgraceful!

          • JamesKalima

            Yes right, if that would be the case, you would not exist and yet I am talking to you, what a waste of space and time!

          • chucky

            Well, you pathetic, ignorant retard, it IS “the case” and I DO “exist” – so where does that leave your embarrassingly asinine argument?

          • JamesKalima

            Like I said you exist and nothing more, and that is waste of time and space for everybody!

          • chucky

            You pathetic, ignorant retard.
            That’s NOT what you said at all, but I’m not surprised a delusional, backward-thinking loser like you would be stupid enough to think you could actually get away with such embarrassingly asinine drivel.

          • chucky

            You pathetic, ignorant retard.
            That’s NOT what you said at all, but I’m not surprised a delusional, backward-thinking loser like you would be stupid enough to think you could actually get away with such embarrassingly asinine drivel.

          • JamesKalima

            LMAO, more sophomoric insults form some guy named chucky! I did not even read the rest!

          • chucky

            So much delusion, so little time.

            Sad, just plain sad.

          • chucky

            I see then ignorant troglodyte has run away with his tail between his legs, removed his name and is now a “Guest”. Figures.

            His kind talk a big game online and hunt in packs in real life, but are actually pathetic cowards when you encounter them alone.

          • chucky

            I see this pathetic, ignorant, deluded freakshow’s comments now say “Guest”. Hardly surprising really. When it all boils down to it, they’re a pack of snivelling cowards.

          • chucky

            I see this pathetic, ignorant, deluded freakshow’s comments now say “Guest”. Hardly surprising really. When it all boils down to it, they’re a pack of snivelling cowards.

          • Alexsandr

            I am sure you can get on a flight to Karachi tonight. tara.

          • global city

            but those priests disgust us, whilst you……er?

          • Alexsandr

            if the UK is so full of undesirables then why are you and your ilk here? You will quickly learn you and your abhorrent views are not welcome here.

          • JamesKalima

            Stupid moron, what makes you think I am in UK!

          • Alexsandr

            then why are you spewing your bile on the website of a UK news magazine?

          • Alexsandr

            actually I know. because in islamic countries a discourse like this would not be allowed. because they are scared of open thought and argument. In case we taint some people with doubts about their imaginary friend. That is why they are so often offended, and shun education – they know the slightest crack in their creed could cause the whole edifice to collapse.

          • JamesKalima

            Because I am giving you taste of your own medicine. I am sick and tired of intolerant, ignorant buffoons, uneducated morons which is most of the readers of spectator. No wonder these sort of articles are considered acceptable reading by its viewers. Head over to Al Jazeera, and you will find it filled with your filth. So I decided I am going to go to where you live and shit on your face, see how you like it.

            This is the face of your tolerance:

            http://www.bristolpost.co.uk/TOUGH-LIFE-WHITE-MUSLIM-LIVING-CITY/story-20851359-detail/story.html#ixzz34SkcN9wo

          • MissDemeanor

            because his type turn their own countries into toilets and then come to our to do the same

          • Alexsandr

            b0g off to some backward country where you like the customs then.

          • global city

            and yet you chose not to live amongst those who have crushed all ‘western’ norms and perversions?

            Hypocrite.

          • JamesKalima

            I am sitting in Antakya, in front of beautiful beach looking at your ugly face, yuk! Stop blocking my sun and don’t waste my time with sophomoric insults, be little creative. What is wrong with you guys, it like talking to 12 years old.

          • MissDemeanor

            LMAO
            you’re sitting in your squalid dirty council flat, by yourself, cause even other muslims don’t want to have anything to do with you

          • JamesKalima

            Somebody is jealous! Muslim here would beat you senseless once they discover your potty mouth, we don’t tolerate ignorant, uncivilized people like you.

          • global city

            Where are the Jews hiding…. and who’s snitching on them?

      • Damaris Tighe

        ‘Islam is the religion of God’: have you any idea what a stupid thing that is to say? If God is as utterly transcendent as muslims believe how can he do anything as anthropomorphic as have a religion? I believe in God & I believe in my religion, but I don’t think for one minute that it’s God’s religion; it’s merely the best that we humans can do in approaching the Almighty. Do muslims even know the meaning of humility?

        • JamesKalima

          Islam is not the religion of God, but it is the only religion of God. All the prophet (pbut) from Adam to Muhammad brought only one religion, Islam. Judaism and Christianity is perversion of Rabbis, and hence named accordingly. You don’t have a religion, you follow satan, and it is no surprise that people are abandoning your religion in droves and churches are being converted to mosques, and your reaction is in proportion to this reality and it is a promise from the lord of universe that he will make his religion prevail, so wait and watch and we are watching with you.

          • Fasdunkle

            Do you think your islamo-fascism is doing anything to help the cause of muslims?

          • JamesKalima

            “If any religion had the chance of ruling over England, nay Europe within the next hundred years, it could be Islam.”, I believe it was Bernard Shaw who said it, and we can see it will happen, and it must happen because that is the only way to raise you out of the filth and the ditch you have created for yourself, and we do care about your well being!

          • Fasdunkle

            lol – I refer you to this: http://wikiislam.net/wiki/George_Bernard_Shaw

          • JamesKalima

            LOL, when did hate website became part of dialog. Oh wait I forgot who I am talking to! Book does exist here is a reference http://catalog.nypl.org/record=b15024015

          • Fasdunkle

            lol – your link backs up what my link says – thanks

          • Damaris Tighe

            What I don’t understand is why you muslims don’t mind your own business, live the way you want to live, & let us live the way we want, sort out our own problems.

          • JamesKalima

            For past 100 years, you have invaded our lands, stole what ever valuable you can get your hand on, you forced your laws on us (contrast that to your bit .. ches screaming about sharia) and when people objected you hanged them. Even till this day we are reeling with your colonialism and left us regime like Bashar, Gadafi and others to cement your interest. Take Iran, the amount of oil British Petroleum you stole, every Britain should be made to pay 5% of their salaries to compensate for the the theft. Seriously, you people complaining about immigration is so hypocritical on so many levels, it is hard to take your guys seriously and you should be shot in the face for being stupid. To top that off, you left us smelly ugly turd in the form of Israhell, which is going to take some time to dislodge and we have to dislodge these puppet before them. In last two wars you killed more people, than muslims in last 100 years and you are complaining about us. There is no forum, or place on the internet, where Hasbara trolls are not spreading hate.

            If you don’t like Muslims kick them out; I really don’t care, but don’t tell me we don’t mind our business while your arm pits are stinking! Christianity is one of the vilest religion in its missionary practices, you will see them everywhere there is misery and to do any and everything to spread that vile paganism as they have been instructed by Paul. As we speak they caught some christian missionaries in Somalia distributing bible that look exactly like Quran and I hope to see them on LiveLeak!

          • Fasdunkle

            “As we speak they caught some christian missionaries in Somalia”

            Caught them for what crime?

          • JamesKalima

            What could be more criminal than what is against God!

          • Fasdunkle

            Maybe handing out korans in the west should be made illegal, just to balance things out a bit

          • JamesKalima

            More people became Muslim after 9/11 than any other time. Go a head! You will not stop Islam!

          • Fasdunkle

            There will always be people who see planes smashing into buildings and want to get in on the action.

            Although given most places under the cosh of your ideology severely restrict any rational appraisal of it and some have the death penalty for those who no longer believe in it you are mostly boasting about something which is the equivalent of a prison sentence

          • JamesKalima

            More modern gulags are run by you, not us! And pretty much every other dirty deed you out source to your puppets. I was just recently watching how Shitland was out sourcing torture to Gadhafi, while at the same time talking shit against him. I don’t see we invading you for one reason or not – not that should’t, when we do get a chance but that is a tangent.

          • MissDemeanor

            that’s because more people in the world are uneducated and ignorant, than anything else – what’s the literacy rate amongst 1.6 billion muslims again compared to western countries…?

            Islam is for the lowest form of humanity, it’s the perfect religion for the brain dead, they even tell you how you should wipe your backside for you!
            no brains necessary

          • JamesKalima

            It does not matter, when you are dead who cares if you died by drowning or swallowed a poison! Look who is talking about literacy; half the time you can’t come up with a decent sentence, other half the time it looks like I am talking to 12 year old. The immediate and the obvious is that, I a non native speaker of English is humiliating half a dozen retards in their your own language is sufficient to demonstrate your ‘literacy level !’

            These “uneducated” people include, physicians, ambassadors, movie starts, football players, it even includes former playboy model, TV actors and actresses. Pretty much they have edge on you from every angle. The reason you guys are screaming so loud is because you see your end, and you can feel it and I will not tell you otherwise!

          • global city

            but countless millions of them can’t even read the Koran…. and it is the only book they know of.

          • Alexsandr

            Yes. Christianity thought they had it all sewn up in Europe. Then we got enlightenment. We learned how to sail into the wind, we learned about ancient geology and evolution and that Genesis was junk. Slowly science won and pushed back religion. The same will happen with Islam. The intellegent and well read will realse its junk and will leave. That is why Islam is so scared of education. The ability to question often destroys religion. When you understand the big bang and Higgs Boson why do you need a deity?

          • global city

            We have stopped Islam. Facts trump fantasies eventually.The Enlightenment saw to that. It is just having trouble in the stupidest parts of the world that are still enthralled by medieval nonsense and superstition….

            One day though all those Muslims will be intellectually free.

          • JamesKalima

            The fact that most of these retards are up in arms belie your insipid claim, but if that keeps you in a happy zone be my guest!

          • Alexsandr

            You dont need to be enlightened, educated or intellegent to run around with a rocket launcher. It seems any idiot can do it.

          • global city

            Up in arms? Most posts have merely mocked your idiocy, whilst you have used all sorts of silly Islamic invective to show how ‘manly’ you are and how ‘threatening’ your people are to the peace of this country and to the Jews everywhere. What idiotic points to try to make on the bloody speccie website? All that florid and graphic rhetorical violence used by your side causes people to laugh in Britain. Remember Sadam and his mother of all battles? My, how we scoffed!

            Your ‘fighters’ need to understand that they may worry some of the establishment but do not scare the mass of ordinary people in Britain, so they had best go elsewhere.

          • MissDemeanor

            who’s up in arms?

            this is bloody brilliant: if there has ever been a muslim on a public forum to demonstrate the inferiority of himself and his ideology, and prove to a lll of us that we are indeed 100% correct about the barbaric savagery and innate ignorance of Islam, it’s definitely you.

            you win the prize Kalima, congratulations, and btw, my brother (who posted as a guest cause he’s really busy with his very zionist and very successful business) made another donation to the Friends of Israeli Defence Force in your name and it’s waaaaay more than what I made LMAO
            feel free to check if you like

            I love my big bro, he’s always got my back

            do you have sisters Kalima?
            would you burn them alive, like some of your brothers, if they went out with a non Muslim, or just beat the sh!! out of them?

          • JamesKalima

            I am pretty sure your “bro got your back”, most probably you are still single, I can see why, I have seen your picture with your mommy! My sister are decent, they are not like you!

          • MissDemeanor

            raping little girls maybe?

            oh sorry, I forgot, you seem to think God WANTS that

            nevermind, back to killing each other then

          • JamesKalima

            Complain to your dad!

          • MissDemeanor

            you keep talking about mothers and fathers of other posters and then don’t understand why we all call you ignorant, troglodyte, stupid, retard, returd, imbecile, cretin, etc etc
            and why we think muslims like you are scum and vile and filth

            you’re not on our level – in ANYTHING
            you’re inferior in every sense
            you might be able to open and close your mouth, but so does a cockroach
            you can type letters on a laptop, but so can a monkey

            you have nothing in common with civilised people, intelligent people, HUMAN people

            you’re dreg and nothing else, and you will be dreg forever

          • JamesKalima

            It is because your mother and fathers are to blame for your ignoramus, narrow minded, hate filled up bringing! I am definitely not at you level in anything, and thank God for that!

          • MissDemeanor

            at least my parents aren’t first cousins, LOL
            is that why you’re such a returd?
            is that why generally muslims are such ignorant troglodytes: too much inbreeding?

            the best thing that could ever happen to the civilised world, is that you all just finish each other off

            you’re doing a great job at it so far – we don’t even need to lift a finger

          • JamesKalima

            With that potty mouth, it is more likely they are brother and sister!

          • JamesKalima

            Geez!!!! Can you be bit more creative with your insults. It is getting boring! cockroach, rat and troglodyte, seriously troglodyte!!!! Where is your mommy, go get your mommy so I can spank her!

          • Alexsandr

            like calling a kids teddy bear ‘Mohammed’ How childish can you get. And persecuting a woman who gave her life for that country. Anyway, who is this God? Your imaginary friend?

          • itbeso

            Almost anything as that is a victimless crime.

          • Alexsandr

            Who invaded Europe? Moors were in Italy and Iberia until they were chucked out. They even nearly got to Vienna. Islam demands that Islamists strive for world domination, a world caliphate. That is imperialism at its most blatant.

          • nielsc

            For a thousand years ? You even don’t know any history. As any muslim you forget about the Ottoman Empire. They tried to conquor Europe, they lost. And you just keep complaining. Gosh.

          • Alexsandr

            they did that in Brum and imposed their illegal views on state secular schools.

          • Terry Field

            You will win because the British should fear you, confront you, defeat you. But they do not know you are dangerous; They are totally complacent.

          • MissDemeanor

            i disagree with you

            the british are known to lose every battle, except the last one

            muslims are no match because they are cowards, they fight dirty: all the terrorism in the world and still the west is strong while muslim countries are literally dust and rubble, destroyed, millions of people displaced, generations of muslims wasted and lost

            muslims will never ‘win’ anything, because they kill each other! what kind of a ‘win’ is that?

            you have to be smart to be a good warrior and muslims are stupid – that’s why they lost every single fight they started with Israel

            Muslims fight for DESTRUCTION
            while we (just like Israelis)) would fight for SURVIVAL

          • JamesKalima

            Seriously, you brits or americans have invaded more country, killed more people than anybody. How did Vietnam threatened your survival that you have to kill 2.5 million people? You do share commonality with Israel, both of you are built on lies and hate. They claim there is no indigenous palestinian, and you claim there is no body in this land. So Israel terrorizes natives and has created biggest prison, America has more people in prisons than some where population of a whole country and terrorizes people in Yemen and Pakistan on daily bases. Israel tortures and we all know what America does, and that does not need introduction. This is why people like Noam Chomsky call American the biggest exporter of terrorism. Not to mention Americans are more accepting of terrorism against civilians than anybody and polls after polls have proven that nobody love terrorism more than the american and that is evident in her history, culture and movies, your hate and behaviour.So it is not a surprise that you find in Israel bosom buddies.

            You have lot of time on your hand, clothing business is not going good?

          • MissDemeanor

            really?

            I wonder what religion the 57 countries were BEFORE islam….and HOW exactly they became muslim….

          • nielsc

            Aah come on. What did muslims do in Bangladesh, Sudan and so on. Not to forget the killing of the Armenian and Assyrian cultures. And right now you have great fun killing each other.

          • Alexsandr

            I think the truth is slowly dawning…

          • Alexsandr

            filth? I can do without practices like FGM, child prostitution gangs, sex segregation in schools, general mysogeny, beheading soldiers in Greenwich, murdering scum like ISIS and Boko Harem and Al Queda

          • JamesKalima

            I might not agree with them, but a dog of a Boko Harem is better than you and your whole lot, here is a proof!

            Check out the largest child porn gang they busted in fifty American states and five countries, all western except one, with 27,000 members. Lets assume ISIS + AQ + Boko Harem they all diddle kiddies, but you still beat them! Funny things is that the one guys they busted in SA, was also an American living in a private campuses that don’t have internet restrictions!

            These are facts for you, not some imaginary stuff you pull out of your bush!

          • Alexsandr

            Excuse me. Are you trying to suggest that the illegal and vile practices of a few US citizens justifies the depraved activities of some islamists. Like FGM, child brides, honour killings and ritual stonings, ( http://www.spectator.co.uk/features/9225151/witness-to-a-stoning/ ) eating human organs, slavery (especially of women), suicide bombings, running child prostitution gangs, general mysogony, a propensity to fraud etc etc? And a general intolerance of other views, religions and apostates.

          • JamesKalima

            FGM is cultural practice, and is practiced by Christians and Amanist as well, as far honour killing more women are killed in United States by their partners then whole of ME put together. There is no such thing as suicide bombing, and you are the only people running child prostitution rings, and the recently busted with 27,000 members, and size of your jails are a good measure of your propensity to fraud!

            You are a confused little cu .. nt! So stop wasting my time, we are watching clean up operations by ISIS, and Abu Wahib is leading the pack, he looking good on German mags cover. Hopefully soon he will pay you a visit, yea seriously start shiting in your pants! Not interested in your childish generalization and musings of rest of your little clan!

          • MissDemeanor

            i so hope that your I/P address is being monitored…….

          • JamesKalima

            Aaaaaa, buckling under pressure, appealing to your imaginary protector!

            So much for your freedom of speech!

          • Porphyrogenitos

            Islam and animal sex. Google stats on searches for bestiality and how Islamic countries rank:

            Pig Sex: Pakistan (No. 1) Egypt (No. 2) Saudi Arabia (No. 3)
            Donkey Sex: Pakistan (No. 1) Iran (No. 3) Saudi Arabia (No. 4)
            Dog Sex: Pakistan (No. 1) Saudi Arabia (No. 3)
            Cat Sex: Pakistan (No. 1) Iran (No. 2) Egypt (No. 3) Saudi Arabia (No. 4)
            Horse Sex: Pakistan (No. 1) Turkey (No. 3)
            Cow Sex: Pakistan (No. 1) Iran (No. 2) Saudi Arabia (No. 4)
            Goat Sex: Pakistan (No. 1)
            Animal Sex: Pakistan (No. 1) Morocco (No. 2) Iran (No. 4) Egypt (No. 5)
            Snake Sex: Pakistan (No. 1) Malaysia (No. 3) Indonesia (No. 4) Egypt (No. 5)
            Monkey Sex: Pakistan (No. 1) Indonesia (No. 3) Malaysia (No. 4)
            Bear Sex: Pakistan (No. 1) Saudi Arabia (No. 2)
            Elephant Sex: Pakistan (No. 1) Egypt (No. 3) United Arab Emirates (No. 4) Malaysia (No. 5)
            Fox Sex: Saudi Arabia (No. 1) Turkey (No. 4)

            Now tell me what that says about sexual morality in Islamic countries.

          • Alec

            Islam and animal sex. Google stats on searches for bestiality and how Islamic countries rank:

            That’s what you say you were doing!

            ~alec

          • Damaris Tighe

            So tell me please why is it that the ‘satanic’ religion of Christianity teaches love in its texts & the ‘religion of God’ teaches violence. Do you know how many times your Koran instructs muslims to kill? It’s one long instruction to kill. How is this of God & not of satan? Also, truth is not a popularity contest. Just because islam is popular right now doesn’t make it right – it just means it panders to man’s lowest desires. If that isn’t satanic I don’t know what is.

          • JamesKalima

            “Enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them–bring them here and kill them in front of me.”, teaching love? What have you been smoking! Where you want me to start, from the start or where Paul started? Or go back a bit, how dashing children against the rocks is considered doing God’s work?

          • Damaris Tighe

            The Gospels you idiot, not the Old Testament! Christians follow the teaching of THE GOSPELS

          • CBinTH

            One of his quotes, the one about “bring them here and kill them in front of me”, is actually from the Gospels. And it has been quoted in the past by Christian religious nuts.

            But of course it’s not representative of the Gospels generally, nor even of the New Testament. It’s usually interpreted as either referring to the Day of Judgement, or as being a part of the preceding parable.

            But, of course, Muslim apologists love it.

          • JamesKalima

            When white guy throws a grenade in to the children school he is mentally ill but when Muslim speaks his mind, you lock him up because you can’t stand the truth, despite your hoo haa about freedom this and that, probably MI16 is already on my tail. Somebody needs to call you up on this charade of civility, you were never civil, nor pluralistic, and when less than two digit increase in muslim population can illicit such a hostility you would be eating their flesh if it reached 15%. Voltaire once said,

            “Let us get out of our grooves and study the rest of the globe. The Sultan governs in peace twenty million people of different religions; two hundred thousand Greeks live in security in Constantinople…The empire is full of Jacobites, Nestorians, and Monothelites; it contains Copts, Christians of St. John, Jews and Hindoos. The annals of Turkey do not record any revolt instigated by any of these religions.”

            Like I said, we taught you tolerance, but you don’t have the capacity. You take exception in our societies and sensationalize it – like that moron’s comment about selling naked female slaves – and actually believe in your own propaganda.

          • Fasdunkle

            lol, Voltaire merely bought into ottoman propaganda. Do you think there was much critical thought allowed under the ottomans? They carefully managed their PR. The ottomans didn’t practice tolerance, they practised divide and conquer with anybody not subscribing to the ottoman ideology treated as 2nd class citzens

          • JamesKalima

            LMAO, Ass backward! it was much more allowed back then, than it is now! If it was not up to us, you would still be guilty before proving your innocence. If there is anybody who did practice divide and conquer it would be that little shit hole thieving country you call England. ME is testament to this divide and conquer policy, and people are still cursing you, even muslim living in england and they are cursing you because you don’t let them live in peace. Look around were ever you ruled, what you left people hate it. I don’t see Albanian or Bosnian cursing Ottomans, even greeks have much more cordial relationship with their former enemy that most of these former colonies!

          • CBinTH

            When a Muslim guy ran his car into a strip club in Swindon, nearly killing two members of staff, the local paper described him as mentally ill, and the BBC didn’t even mention his religion. This is despite the fact that the man proclaimed himself to be acting to stop sinful behaviour.

            So much for the press being systematically and biased against Muslims. That’s part of a simplistic world view that allows you to ignore the aggressive and cruel ideas popular amongst the world wide Muslim community, because that reality is painful for you.

            When Muslim speaks his mind, you lock him up because you can’t stand the truth.” Firstly, hatred expressed by Muslims is tolerated to a greater degree in my society than hatred expressed by white non-Muslims – at the moment, you can be an al-Queda sympathising teacher or an Islamist council officer or policeman, but you cannot be a racist and also be any of those things. Secondly, the only Muslims locked up for speaking are those who “glorify terrorism”, which is admittedly a pretty vaguely worded law, but in practice the only people to be locked up are pretty monstrous.

            Is the glorification of terrorism what you mean by “the truth”?

            when less than two digit increase in muslim population can illicit such a hostility you would be eating their flesh if it reached 15%“. If you want an example of people being intolerant of newcomers, you only need look at how the existing population of Palestine treated the first Jewish newcomers in 1919. When the Jewish immigrants were still small in numbers, when they had as yet caused no harm, and before they began to work towards building an exclusively Jewish state, they were attacked by mobs and dozens were murdered. Real tolerance. Or how about modern day Saudi Arabia? European countries are universally better in their treatment of immigrants than is Saudi Arabia, the home of Islam. Even Dubai compares poorly – in terms of how poor immigrants are treated – to the UK. Egypt won’t give citizenship to those without an Egyptian father.

            But let’s get back to history. Where are the Greeks of Constantinople today, then? How about the Greek population along the coast of modern day Turkey, where less than a century ago they often formed a majority?

            It’s amazing that you can hark on about the superior tolerance of Islam, when even today right now non-Muslim populations are fleeing what were once secure lands in Syria and Iraq. In fact, Muslims are fleeing from rival groups of Muslims. So, at best, Islam is having a very marginal positive effect in terms of preventing intolerance. At worst, it is the cause of intolerance.

            We didn’t learn our tolerance from Islam – our ways have developed due to factors that had nothing whatsoever to do with Islam.

            The “moron” who pointed out to you the reality about women being displayed naked in Ottoman slave markets was me, by the way. I read about it in a book written by a woman who is generally positive about Turkey and about Ottoman history. I would actually be prepared to admit I was mistaken, if you could provide the evidence. It wouldn’t matter because I know about the pretty poor record of Islamic history and the naked slave market is merely a detail.

            I only mentioned it to puncture your pomposity and self-assurance.

          • JamesKalima

            Ready your “Gospels” your retard!

          • Damaris Tighe

            Are you always this charming or only with kaffirs?

          • global city

            There is no God!

          • JamesKalima

            There is no god but Allah (AZ)!

          • Alexsandr

            And he only exists in your febrile brain.

          • Guest

            then why did he make you lot such losers?

          • David

            Assertion and nothing more. Why so proud? Your ilk marry and have sex with children.

          • itbeso

            There is no god including Allah/Yahweh/El or whatever people are calling that particular god this century.

          • Terry Field

            I’ve been in the middle East – never seen so many gays as in Arabia.

          • MissDemeanor

            i’ve never seen as many russian hookers as in Dubai!

          • JamesKalima

            They are also popular in Israel too, just ask the Rabbis. They call them Shiksas!

          • Guest

            YOU’RE the one who brought it up, and not MissDemeanor, I don’t think she is the one who has a problem with it

            you really are unbelievably stupid, aren’t you?

            and yes, Muslims are f***ing depraved savages and Islam gives pedophiles legality

          • JamesKalima

            LOL, were you looking for somebody to bend you over?

          • Terry Field

            I bet you are as queere as a coote you little gippo

          • JamesKalima

            I am not little, and I am unlike your cu .. nt face dad, and in all probability I would rub your face in dirt with one hand! But I would have to use clorox after touching you and your kind!

            Seriously you must be looking to get some, how else you would know so many are like you! Think before you open you mouth dumb shit! I forgot, who was that Navy seal who became a girl after his tour in Iraq, he also wanted some iraqi manliness, are you in the same boat?

          • Guest

            you truly are a cretinous troglodyte ^

          • Terry Field

            So…. that was easy – all can see your so-called islamic little mind is a running sewer.
            Thank you.
            Clear as a bell.
            I really wound your foul little proto-mind up!
            Very easy.
            Peas be upon you

          • JamesKalima

            Aaaaa, did I hurt you feelings!

          • Terry Field

            No. I got to you – you are no moslem.
            You are sewage.
            We all know, despite the efforts of Blair, Brown and the bloody Home Office that Islam is incompatible with civilised life in the west – it is a world that needs to be separate.
            I can respect moslems as long as they are somewhere else.
            But you are sewage, sonny, just sewage.

          • JamesKalima

            Sorry did you say civilized world, LMAO! Just because you know how to barely type does not make you civilized! I don’t care if you think Islam is compatible with some stupidity you conjured up in your little pea brain, you have adopt to us, not us to you. This is what you fail to understand.

          • MissDemeanor

            now you imbecile are just using the same insult that I aimed at you earlier???

            you’re so f***ing retarded you can’t even make up your own insults!

            LMAO

          • Terry Field

            As I said and you clearly show.
            Sewage.
            No Moslem; just sewage.

          • JamesKalima

            I clearly show what? I not doubt expose your (and your clans) inner filth. As Allah (AZ) says in Quran about you lot ‘Hatred has already appeared from their mouths, but what their breasts conceal is far worse’! You are fooling nobody!

          • Terry Field

            The readers of this magazine see quite clearly you are a foul-mouthed, foul-minded nasty piece of work. You spout poisonous garbage. If that is Islam, you can have it, and it will be rejected by sane people across the globe. You are, however, no Moslem. You are sewage, just sewage. And I bet your real name is fred Smith and you are a lapsed catholic Scot who eats fried marsbars as a treat.
            Sewage, sonny. You are sewage.
            Pork sewage.
            I am done with you. I will not respond to your poison, scumbag.

          • JamesKalima

            Maybe you it is a popularity contest!

          • Terry Field

            That is not even English you miserable illiterate ethnic crapheap.

          • JamesKalima

            LMAO, so I miss “for” and I am illiterate, you exist and world should not complain!

          • Terry Field

            No definite article.
            Poisonous abuse.
            Third world values.
            Utter ignorance; a sewer running full.
            If you are Islamic we can all see what it really is.
            Thank you for enlightening us.

          • Alexsandr

            the sign of someone losing an argument is to insult and threaten violence. Well done.

          • MissDemeanor

            so?
            porn is a regulated industry – it’s perfectly legal and porn actors do it out of their own free will

            meanwhile the dancing boys (age 14 and under) in Afghanistan……….

          • chucky

            Of course muslims are depraved!

            What else would you expect, when their ‘prophet’ mohammed was a filthy child rapist?!

          • JamesKalima

            You think porn is okay, and yet Muslims are depraved! I reckon 14 year old dancing boys are better than sucking the infant’s pe .. nis by rabbis. Last I heard two died in new york of getting herpes infection, hilarious! There is actually pictures of rabbis sucking pe .. nis of young boys.

            When it comes to pedophilia nobody tops western countries, and white parents are top contributor to kiddie diddling porn sites. Just see the names on the list of last big party that was busted. Maybe your dad was diddling you, am I wrong? from your picture it looks like you were diddled at least a bit!

          • CBinTH

            Did you do know that in the late Ottoman Empire, women were sold in the slave markets wearing nothing whatsoever?

            The most significant thing about that is the lack of choice and lack of dignity afforded to the slaves.

          • JamesKalima

            Less then few hundred years ago, Belgians with the help of British were ransoming women and children to extract salve labour and almost wiped out half of the population, and there is lot more I can add to this, this was happening just before the turn of your “20th century”!

            Here is a tip, orientalist art is not history and one historian from my old university once said. “These statistics blatantly contradict the implicit demographics presented by European artists—if one were to believe these depictions to be accurate, one would assume that all concubines kept in
            Ottoman harems were Caucasian” So these depiction are noting but projection of perverted minds of your forefathers, and you are no different and we can see that application if that “dignity” for women in western countries, were they are are noting but a cleavage, or short skirt, that is the reality of your women son! Enjoy!

          • CBinTH

            I didn’t base my statement about Ottoman slave markets on “orientalist art” but on books I have read on Ottoman history (a subject largely written about by Turkophile’s). White slaves were indeed in the minority – that is one reason why Circassian women were more far more expensive than the other slaves, particularly black slaves, who were the cheapest, probably partially because of the very ample supply of African slaves being supplied until a very late period.

            Another interesting thing about late Ottoman slavery is that young women were more expensive than young men, the reverse of the situation in slavery-era America. This probably wasn’t entirely due to sexual slavery, though, as slaves were useful for other things.

            Consulting wikipedia, now, reminds me that “boys taken in the devşirme could also become sexual slaves, though usually they worked in places like bathhouses (hammam) and coffeehouses. They became tellak, köçek or sāqī for as long as they were young and beardless.” But I guess you would dismiss the cited source, Madeline Zilfi, as some sort of agent in a Western conspiracy.

            As to the Congo Free State, Britain didn’t help the Belgians (in fact, the Congo Free State was run by the Belgian King but was a private enterprise and was not run by the Belgian government – so it’s slightly misleading to say “the ‘Belgians’ did x”) to extract forced labour. In fact, the Congo Reform Association, which, along with Christian missionaries, alerted Europe to the crimes taking place in the CFS, was established by a group of Britons.

            And it was a British consular official whose investigation became the basis for united action amongst rival European states to put an end to Leopold’s regime.

            Meanwhile, the Muslim world was ambivalent about dealing with human rights abuses even within its homelands. The Hejaz and the Sudan both saw rebellions when governments attempted to ban the slave trade, because Islam gave slave traders the vehicle to mobilise people to defend their interests.

            I must say I’m shocked to hear that you went to a university, although the human capacity for editing out what one does not want to know, and jumping on things that superficially appear to support your preconceptions, is a universal trait.

            Oh, and by the way, it is only you who reduces the women in Western countries to “noting but a cleavage, or short skirt”. Not me.

          • global city

            Muslims are still doing it… and quite legally in many parts of your world.

          • MissDemeanor

            dignity?

            you wrap your women up in GARBAGE BAGS!!!

            yeah, they look very dignified dressed as rubbish, walking 3 steps behind your smelly ar$e$, very dignified indeed

          • JamesKalima

            My wife is russian, tall blonde and highly likely much prettier than you, and she wraps herself in the bag, and she walks faster then me, so usually I am behind her. This is something a indecent women like you cannot understand. No this concept can not be explained to hordes of cuckold men of your kind.

          • MissDemeanor

            oh you married a russian prosy??

            LOOL

            dignity…………

          • global city

            I’d rather be in a porn movie than ‘star’ in an Islamist snuff documentary.

          • JamesKalima

            You wish! It is more like that you end up on Live Leak with that pea brain of yours. You are going to say something wrong to a muslim guy and next thing we know you will land on Live Leak!

          • Alexsandr

            Preaching tolerance again I see. Now we see your true colours. an intolerant violent idiot.

          • Alexsandr

            he should read Matthew 5:39

          • MissDemeanor

            if there is a God, then he must absolutely despise Muslims, otherwise why would he make them so effin’ violent and cretinous, destroy their countries, give them failure after failure after failure after failure??

            you lot are like the black knight in the Monty Python sketch: totally delusional

            Israel for example is the size of Wales, and you mighty Allah-supported arabs couldn’t destroy it even though you attacked it from all sides – several times!!!!
            7 million jews surrounded by half a billion arabs and arabs have lost every single time – you still think you’re winning…..LOL

            It’s hysterical

            Israel is surrounded by cretins

          • JamesKalima

            But nobody is more violent than you! Israhell killed more women and children in last war on Gaza than AQ since it came it to existence, even the zionist jews accuse Israhell of genocide, and as usual they were labeled as anti-semite. Just few days ago Israhell shot two teenager who where standing waiting for bus.

            Head over to the group called Breaking the Silence on Facebook and read the testimonies of Israeli soldiers and how they terrorize the palestinians, killed their children, and up rooted trees and orchids. This is your reality. As for this “myth of invincibility” of Israel, Israel Shahak has shattered it in the book Open Secrets and his cautions buying it to narrative popularized by Israel. And we all know Israel’s Hasbara “edit” the wikipedia and anything to spread this stupidity.

            To summarize, Arab countries were just transition from colonialism to neo-colonialism and none of these puppets wanted to fight Israhell. The soldiers were untrained, and volunteer were badly equipped and contrast that to Israeli who had support from west, better trained soldiers and better equipment. Just look at last fight with Hizbollah, and how it humiliated and frustrated Israel in last war and how Israel indiscriminately bombed civilians to win. What will happen when all these regimes that are protecting you fall, it will be matter of days when we reach your cities and trust me we will come and nobody will protect you.

          • global city

            Do you mean when the Jews couldn’t bomb Hizbollah to ‘paradise’ as they were all hiding amongst children and old women, like cowards?

          • JamesKalima

            Hizbullat is fraction of the size of Israhell, and it send almost 200 of Israhelli soldiers to hell! What did Israhell do, well what it does best, bomb civilians!

          • Alexsandr

            yes its really brave to fire untargetted rockets from populated areas into Israel.

          • global city

            but they didn’t, because your fighting ‘men’ where hiding in women’s clothing amongst school children and housebound people…. like the cowards they all are.

          • MissDemeanor

            you’re delusional, Israelis have nukes and the fact they don’t use them says a lot about them

            Hezbollah should be kissing israeli ar$e$ that they still exist! as should Hamas – cowards, using their own children and women as human shields – sick filthy and deranged sewer rats and nothing else.

            you should really watch the Monty python sketch about the black knight – that you to a T

          • JamesKalima

            Israel does not have strategic depth and we have nukes too! When French went to Algeria they said the same thing, whenever they killed the civilians; and when American went to Vietnam it was exactly the same line; and when Japanese attacked China, it was not any different. Robert Fisk has good piece on that how propaganda has not changed over the years. Stop wasting your time with childish insults, and learn some manners!

          • Alexsandr

            if the islamists were to leave Israel in peace then the israelis would not need to defend themselves by killing palestinians etc. The have incursions into Gaza. because rockers come from Gaza. Do you really think the Israelis want anything from Gaza?
            But there again if everyone stopped bothering about religious stuff and got on with enjoying life things would be a lot better.

          • MissDemeanor

            if Israel had wanted, they could have pressed a couple of buttons and Hezbollah would be dust by now – as would Hamas; Israelis certainly have the weapons for it!

            Israelis are kinder to their worst enemies, than muslims are to their own people – that’s why muslims are inferior to everybody

          • Terry Field

            Codswallop

          • Krista L. Miller

            I find it amusing that you refer to us as following Satan when your own religion depicts Satan as merely the other half of Allah. Allah is both “god” and the devil in your religion. So there should be nothing wrong with following one half of a deity who is both god and devil because it’s still the same deity. Your religion is so schizophrenic you can’t keep track of who’s who and what’s what.

          • JamesKalima

            This is what happens when you listen to Fox News too much!

          • Krista L. Miller

            I didn’t get that bit of information from Fox News. Nice try.

          • Alexsandr

            I dont follow anything. There is no God. and you waving your ar$e in the air every friday wont make 5p worth of difference to that.

          • MissDemeanor

            LMAO

            that’s funny and disgusting at the same time

          • nielsc

            Oohh Get Lost. It’s pathetic to hear muslims speak about their ‘god’ and their ‘religion’ in a Protestant secular society which tradition and culture muslims use because they can’t create anything themselves.

      • Alexsandr

        who is this god of whom you speak. no such thing. Sooner a lot of people realise that the better.

    • Terry Field

      The british are stupefyingly naive, and the countries future is going down the tubes because of it/

    • Kasperlos

      Per your last sentence: It’s not arrogance but a systematic Post WWII effort to reorder the world. And that means the elimination of the classical Western tradition. The globalist elites assisted by their loony Marxist stooges in academia a corrupt sell out political and business class. This era began 6 decades ago. It will end badly.

    • John Dalton

      This head in the clouds naivety is typical of the left-leaning bubble dwellers and people are getting really sick of it.

      Question Time last night featured that ridiculous professional grievance monger squealing about how the Birmingham schools were being unfairly targeted – so once again it’s OUR fault. To be fair, even Dimblebore and that effete Blair clone Chris Bryant called her out on the total rubbish she was talking, but it did illustrate the uncompromising ferocity with which people like her will fight it out.

      Just like the massive scale grooming of our kids in the major cities, these problems have been allowed to fester for years and anyone who spoke up was destroyed with intense venom by the politicians and their MSM toadies. Now the cat is out of the bag. All anyone sensible has to do is look at the facts, extrapolate the demographics that are already in place – and realize that we are heading towards serious trouble as this ideology is slowly allowed to become the dominant force.

  • Kitty MLB

    Islam is not a moderate religion, its about domination and
    intolerance. They believe their religion is superior to any others,
    even when living in foreign lands. They just take their religion
    and medieval customs with them.
    We in the west are very tolerant to other religions, and they
    have embraced the West. But why must we tolerate those
    who show no respect back.

  • revkevblue

    Our Mosques?

    • Cooper1992

      I don’t know about you but I still (and always will – and I’m in my 20s!) consider Islam to be part of a foreign culture, not part of England’s culture.

      England’s religious culture is Anglicanism, to a lesser extent Catholicism, and our various Pagan religions too.

      I understand the Jews have contributed a bit. I don’t mind the Sikhs, Hindus, or Jains although again I don’t think they will ever be ‘culturally English’. There are so few of them though that I don’t mind as much.

      2001: 1.6 million Muslims in England (3%).
      2011: 2.7 million Muslims in England (4.8%).
      2015: 3.3 million Muslims in England (5.9%).

      However in 2011, 11.8% of Under 1’s were Muslim, and that figure could be as high as 14% now.

      I’ve said it once and I’ll say it again: this is an incredibly dangerous strategy by the British Government.

      I have read about countries tearing themselves apart because of religious and ethnic differences. The best thing to hold a country together is wealth. Wealth is freedom, and freedom generally creates tolerance.

      That is why I have predicted that if England were to lose it’s wealth (and thus power), then we will have major problems for our country.

      • Roger Hudson

        I don’t think you gave enough of a mention to the dissenting christians, methodists, baptists, quakers etc.
        The sight of a chapel being turned into a mosque or madrassa turns my stomach, it is as if the middle ages are coming back.

      • jackie jackson

        We are giving it away daily to the EU who issue Muslims with passports willy nilly and in FORIEGN aid that just turns into weapons not food or education,

      • Amin

        In other words you ARE racist and white. And then you people have the stupidity of speaking about “integration” whilst you have intention of integration.

        The sooner you are bred out of existence the better… Churchill and his Eugenics to improve the “White Aryan Race” might have had a point!

        • John Fiftytwo

          There are no greater racists than the Muslims. They are also very keen on having slaves. A civil war is coming, Muslims V the rest.

          • Amin

            I take it you didn’t get the bit about Islam being a religion and not a race. I guess all those White members of ISIS… Racism and Stupidity tend to go together son

          • http://www.ecenglish.com/ Luciano Borg

            How DARE you mention integration? Here in Malta we SAVE 1000s of MUSLIM lives from the barren sea every year, and yet, once in Malta, these “PEACEFUL” Mulsims take over our streets, PUSHING WOMEN off the pavement because – I QUOTE – “a woman should know her place”! SHAME ON YOU!

          • Amin

            Quit lying. And look what you are answering. Plus, Malta saves nothing.

          • http://www.ecenglish.com/ Luciano Borg

            LYING? SHAME ON YOU FOR SAYING MALTA SAVES NOTHING! You are either “lying through your teeth”, “too stupid to read” or “a brainwashed robot” to state that “Malta saves nothing”:

            – TELEGRAPH REPORT: EU immigration: ‘Malta is the smallest state, and we are carrying a burden that is much bigger than any other country’ – http://goo.gl/YmY3VI

            – MALTA TODAY REPORT – €93,080 spent to repatriate 52 irregular immigrants –
            http://goo.gl/YhZGga

          • http://www.ecenglish.com/ Luciano Borg

            Islam is not a RELIGION – it is a SICK Ideology born to shield Pedophiles, Rapists and Woman Battering!

          • Amin

            That is your sick mind. Europe has had long history of such vitriol… nothing new there son.

    • Cooper1992

      I don’t know about you but I still (and always will – and I’m in my 20s!) consider Islam to be part of a foreign culture, not part of England’s culture.

      England’s religious culture is Anglicanism, to a lesser extent Catholicism, and our various Pagan religions too.

      I understand the Jews have contributed a bit. I don’t mind the Sikhs, Hindus, or Jains although again I don’t think they will ever be ‘culturally English’. There are so few of them though that I don’t mind as much.

      2001: 1.6 million Muslims in England (3%).
      2011: 2.7 million Muslims in England (4.8%).
      2015: 3.3 million Muslims in England (5.9%).

      However in 2011, 11.8% of Under 1’s were Muslim, and that figure could be as high as 14% now.

      I’ve said it once and I’ll say it again: this is an incredibly dangerous strategy by the British Government.

      I have read about countries tearing themselves apart because of religious and ethnic differences. The best thing to hold a country together is wealth. Wealth is freedom, and freedom generally creates tolerance.

      That is why I have predicted that if England were to lose it’s wealth (and thus power), then we will have major problems for our country.

  • rockylives

    Congratulations on a genuinely informative piece of journalism.

    The predominance of the Deobandi influence explains a great deal and this is the first time I have seen a clear explanation of their numbers and influence.

    If the Deobandis control almost half of the mosques in the UK, then when politicians and left-leaning members of the media trot out their catch-phrase of “the vast majority of ordinary, moderate Muslims…” we know they are talking rot.

    Given that the Deodandis are not the only extreme sub-sect of Islam operating in UK mosques, we can assume a majority of British Muslims are anything but “moderate”.

    Your figures that over 50% of mosques in the USA claim to follow a modernity-friendly version of Islam while in Britain only TWO out of 1,700 mosques claim the same tells its own story.

    • Damaris Tighe

      ‘the vast majority of ordinary, moderate muslims’ comes from the same robotic lexicon as ‘hardworking families’, ‘right thing to do’, ‘inclusive society’ etc etc (excuse me while I reach for the sick bag).

    • Kangeroo

      I do not believe that Muslims in the US are moderate at all. I am American, and recently I have seen women dressed head to toe in a black body bag (burkah) That’s not my definition of moderate. I WANT THEM OUT OF THE US and so do MOST people. Our P/C politicians are killing us by degrees.

    • grumpy_old_ben

      Which brings us to the crucial point, that a significant number of Muslims probably only want to get on with their lives, but their imported third-world culture creates the environment in which the extremists flourish.

      This is the problem at which so many Brits stall; that the whole concept of allowing mass immigration from a place like Pakistan is incomprehensible to the wider electorate and the British, and most of all the English are not at their best when dealing with such things.

      Their communitarian but virtually areligious outlook does not equip them to cope with the idea that their leaders are gleefully wrecking everything from within, for no readily accessible reason.

      Nor do they generally share the obsession with Orientalism which their leaders show in occasion.

      • tamimisledus

        Clarification:
        All muslims just want to get on with their lives, where the law of their god, allah, rules over all. That law is called Sharia.

  • Sarka

    On the MEMRI site there is a very interesting (long) transcript of a series of TV programmes made and broadcast in Pakistan. The subject was the Pakistan Taliban, what was behind the movement and insurgency, and what could or should be done.

    It was quite impressive in depth and breadth, with many political and religious experts involved.
    One particular piece of information struck me. Someone brought up the subject of the Pakistani “diaspora” in the West, and how they might positively influence the problem developments and extremism in Pakistan. This notion was greeted by the experts with great scepticism. One (a cleric I think) said he had spent some time in the UK and his impression was that Pakistani Britons were overall significantly more extreme than mainstream Muslims in Pakistan itself. This led on to talk of how some organisations in Pakistan had in fact appealed to Pakistani organisations in Britain for – at least moral – support against the Taliban. Unfortunately, not a single local or national British Pakistani association would agree to sign a petition/declaration condemning the Taliban in any way! One organisation raised a little money to help Pakistanis displaced by the insurgency, but stressed that they would not express any opinion on the Taliban’s policy.

    I found this extraordinary, and extremely depressing.

    • Fasdunkle

      Where was the cleric from? There is a world of difference between many in the more salubrious parts of the cities in Pakistan and those from other districts or the countryside. Many of the immigrants to the UK are from the rural areas.

      • Sarka

        Almost all the people on the panels (although there were clips of interviews with witnesses), were educated Pakistani commentators, mostly obviously liberal in outlook, academics, journos… Given what I had heard and read about the problems of such liberals even in the elite, they were impressively open and trenchant.

        Clearly, the profile of Pakistani immigrant communities in the UK is strongly affected by so many coming from very backward rural areas, but still, what was depressing about the comment was setting it against the fact that those communities in the UK are not composed primarily of complete newcomers – rustics straight from the village (even if many marriage partners, especially brides may be…but these brides are not exactly community movers and shakers!), and that the “more extreme” views are held by people who unlike rural Pakistanis have had sometimes two or three generations worth of experience and education in the UK.
        I don’t remember any of the Pakistani debaters specfically making the point about the regional or educational profile of the UK migrants.

        • Fasdunkle

          That’s because there is a lot of identity politics being played – well funded islamo-fascism groups are preying on young men filling their heads with a self fulfilling victim hood and telling them to reject the west and embrace extremist islam and dream of a renewed caliphate where they get to be something other than just another scrote from Dewsbury or Birmingham – ally that with the often very restrictive gender segregation in these “communities” and it’s hardly surprising they are having success recruiting.

          • First L

            This is probably the most intelligent thread I’ve read on the subject so far. Almost any other site and people would be screaming racist at the commentators by now.

            Edit – and now I’ve read the screaming match further down the page. Don’t they all come across like a bunch of gorillas fighting over the last banana.

          • grumpy_old_ben

            That’s because this isn’t the Guardian, I dare say.

            Why be surprised, though? Look at the relationship between the IRA and the “Boston Irish” in the US.

          • Zhang Wei

            Good point cuts to the chase

      • jackie jackson

        We are getting all the lowlife dregs of the world because our government is too cowardly to just say no,,,, UKIP is the only answer,

        • tamimisledus

          UKIP condones islam by allowing muslims into the party. UKIP is not an answer at all. In fact it is part of the problem.

        • 007harvey

          Yes UKIP all the way

      • evad666

        That’s why they the rural followers of the Deobandi group integrate so well at our expense.

    • Bonkim

      Not a surprise – communities are stuck in a time-warp at the time they leave their cultural base – which gets more bigoted with time. Coupled with backward customs and cultural appendages such as forced and arranged marriages and importing brides from their homeland these communities have no hope of integrating with mainstream – the tragedy is all theirs – in time will suffer from poverty, and discrimination from mainstream.

      • Lindum

        Plus marrying 1st cousins, generation after generation – not only does it produce birth defects, but adversely affects the IQ of the whole community.

        • mobsie666

          Marrying 1st cousins has been legal in the UK since Henry VIII did it. You should be more selective with your bigotry.

          • Lindum

            And you should read more carefully before making foolish comments. A bit of education for a politically correct sot. Marrying cousins in the UK is legal, but it is culturally frowned on, and consequently is very rare. But that is not really the problem as marrying a cousin has a slight genetic risk for the offspring. If you had bothered to read my comment more closely before you jumped on your politically correct high horse, you would have seen “marrying 1st cousins, ****generation after generation***”.
            Are you ill-informed about the genetic of it as well? If so I can explain it to you.

          • mobsie666

            Wow aren’t you an angry little man. How on earth is that politically correct? How does it make me a drunkard? Is it culturally frowned on though? I know married cousins. No-one bothers them at all. Where is your proof from? Inside your own head perhaps? I’m well aware of the genetic defects thank you. Just look at the royal family. If I had bothered to read your one sentence more closely? Do you think that your wisdom is beyond mere mortals?

            Lashing out because someones opinion differs from yours makes your bigotry even more apparent.

          • Lindum

            I can only assume that you are foreign as you are unfamiliar with our culture. the reference to sot, only shows your inability to read our language.
            I will enlighten you.
            1. The British Royal family traditionally have married for political alliances, hence the marrying of cousins. The result when they did it, was the genetic problems, which is why they no make an effort to “marry out”.
            2. Marriage of cousins is not seen as normal, hence the need until recently to have special permission to do so. It is however a social taboo. However as I said twice now (you seem to be slow in getting this point), that on the first marriage of first cousins, the risk is low (4%), but it increases as each generation inbreds.
            3. The fact that you know married cousins only shows that you know inbreds; birds of a feather and all that I guess.

            As for the reference to bigotry – very amusing from one who defends so vigorously a cult which is anti Jew, anti homosexual, anti women’s rights, anti democracy and so fond of capital punishments.

          • mobsie666

            Everything you say is based on assumption, clearly. The Oxford (that’s an English dictionary) defines sot as “an habitual drunkard” So that’s you wrong from the very start, but let us continue to pick apart your latest idiotic ramblings.

            1 So what? All your saying is that our royal family work the same as muslims. Well done. You must hate them too.

            2. As I said, the married cousins I know, married 20 years ago. Without permission. So your claim this was recent without permission is, again, you just making things up, as usual.

            3. Knowing married cousins means nothing. You probably do, but they won’t mention it to a clear bigot such as yourself. You probably know a paedophile too, so that must mean you’re one right?

            There is nothing bigoted about defending people. Try and understand the words you use. If islam is a cult then so is christianity and judaism. Again, your problem is one of simple comprehension.

            You will find that most islamic countries are anti israel not anti jew but don’t let that stop your bigoted rants. You are quite amusing for an angry man.

            As for anti women and anti democracy perhaps you need to look at the catholic church or even the American evangelical movement. Perhaps have a look in Africa where genital mutilation and child brides are part of the culture in christian nations too.

            The problem with UKIP voting EDL supporting retards like you is that you believe yourself to be more intelligent than the evidence of your words display. You even hide your profile. Such bravery there. Who are you scared of? Everyone, I imagine.

            You also need to brush up on your written English. Your grammar is appalling. Still, it must be quite a chore to lift your knuckles off the ground and up to a keyboard. Get a dictionary too. Spell checker can only help with spelling. It’s no good for comprehension and meaning.

          • Lindum

            I cannot be bothered with you at this time of night but just a couple of comments. As I pointed out, you do not understand the english language. I did not refer to you as a sot, but as a politically correct sot. There is a subtle difference.

            As for my sense of superiority, it comes from my PhD, not where my vote goes.

          • mobsie666

            Yes, the subtle difference is your talking out of your arse. Are you English or American? It’s a subtle difference but I’m sure your fake PhD will make you believe you can say anything you like.

          • Lindum

            Being inbred yourself you might not be able to understand the implications of this :
            http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leeds-23183102

          • pp22pp

            You really are a total jerk.

          • mobsie666

            and you are what exactly? Someone who calls names because they have no actual point to make? Think that makes you a far bigger jerk.

          • Grace Ironwood

            So inspiring to see someone generous enough to take the time to make the brave call of racist to fellow posters.
            Perhaps you could also take the time to accurately comprehend their posts ?

          • Standish79

            It would be nicer for everyone if they could both have avoided being so belligerent in public.

          • Grace Ironwood

            You want nice? I want inspiring :)

          • mobsie666

            So you don’t think there was a connection between what he said and the original comment about Pakistanis marrying cousins. Perhaps you need to read the whole thread before making the very same assumptions that Lindum did. It may not be apparent in his comment but to what he/she is replying to it most certainly is. Where is the evidence for all these cousins marrying each other?

          • Citizen Pain
          • 007harvey

            ‘Bradford
            is very inbred’: Muslim outrage as professor warns first-cousin marriages
            increase risk of birth defects

            http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1392217/Muslim-outrage-professor-Steve-Jones-warns-inbreeding-risks.html

            Danish
            Psychologist: “Serious consequences of Muslim inbreeding”

            https://themuslimissue.wordpress.com/2013/05/28/psychologist-serious-consequences-of-muslim-inbreeding/

            British Pakistanis are THIRTEEN times more likely to have
            disabled children because of intermarriage

            http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-3162989/The-brave-woman-dares-shatter-toxic-taboo.html

    • MissDemeanor

      this is not a surprise

      the Muslim Brotherhood is banned in Egypt, yet operates legally from the UK

      this country has a list of terrorist organisations as long as my arm

      • John Thomas

        The MB is very big in the US, apparently, where it’s considered moderate, and privileged by the Obama administration.

    • MrJones

      Islam in Pakistan has its own indigenous roots so for the Saudis to replace the local version of Islam with the Wahabbi version is a slow business of replacing the existing teachers in the madrassas and waiting 40 years for the students to become a majority.

      In the UK it started from scratch so every new mosque was an opportunity to install a wahabbi cleric from the beginning and that’s what happened.

      It’s been warned about for 30 years.

      • mobsie666

        Wahhabi only makes up 6% of Uk muslim mosques. Pretty much no clerics trained in the UK ascribe to the wahhabi doctrine They are all deobandis who also control around 60% of the mosques. I have no love of Islam but please don’t say things without evidence. It helps no-one.

    • MrJones

      Islam in Pakistan has its own indigenous roots so for the Saudis to replace the local version of Islam with the Wahabbi version is a slow business of replacing the existing teachers in the madrassas and waiting 40 years for the students to become a majority.

      In the UK it started from scratch so every new mosque was an opportunity to install a wahabbi cleric from the beginning and that’s what happened.

      It’s been warned about for 30 years.

    • tamimisledus

      With islam, this is perfectly ordinary.
      muslims must not take sides with non-muslims against anyone whom they see as being a true muslim.

    • Grace Ironwood

      Good, informative post: I’ll read it. MEMRI’s a good source.
      So, so sad for Britain in the migrants it’s attracted. In Australia so fortunate we’ve mainly had East Asians who’ve become great citizens & contributors and also engaged in a lot of intermarriage with Anglo-Aussies. (you know, the racists)
      Australia is truly multicultural (actually just multi-racial) Britain is, unfortunately, bi-cultural.

  • itbeso

    Only 1 in 10 of the UK’s mosques is registered to perform civil marriages.

    So 75% of Muslim marriages in the UK have NOT been registered under the Marriage Act. This is an applalling state of affairs and leaves a large minority of British muslim women at the mercy of the misogynist sharia councils when a relationship fails.

    http://www.shariawatch.org.uk/articles/government-gives-priority-wishes-religious-leaders#.U5nktUDDV8E

    • tamimisledus

      Because many muslim women will be unaware of their rights in the UK, and that in the UK these rights overrule rights under Sharia, for many (almost all?) it will be immaterial whether they have been married under UK law or not. More likely than not, their fate will be determined by Sharia courts operating under misogynist sharia law.

  • Terry Field

    If we do not know that w are being played for fools by the so called “Islamic community’ in Britain, then we deserve to be.No other country is walked over as Britain allows itself to be.

    • MissDemeanor

      sweden seems to be doing a pretty good job at bending over and presenting too

      • Terry Field

        Yes, do you think this will continue, or will society change and start to react against Islam in their midst???

        • MissDemeanor

          well, I’m surprised this nonsense has been going on THIS long, but the white european is self hating and terrified of being called a name (get the F over it, it’s just words), and therefor self destructive – especially visible in politics and the media (oh the loathsome biased terrorist appeasing media, how I resent and despise them!) – cowards, 99% of them.

          the tide has definitely changed in the last few years, UKIP has had crazy success, unbelievable really how fast and hard that came – that should definately say something. well, at least I hope so, I voted UKIP and I will do so again.

          Now, as a jew, who has lost family in the Holocaust, I tend to distance myself from any emotional ties, although I love Europe, I love the UK, I love London, but Europe, the UK and the rest of Europe have not shown much love to my people, so why should I care what they do to themselves?

          In fact, the media keeps vilifying Israel at every turn, instead of praising it for defending their people and their borders at any cost, and not being traitors and sell outs like their countries are.

          I have a country that will give me a home, no matter what, and that will DEFEND AND PROTECT me, no matter what, and I’m proud to belong to such a people.

          Europeans have only themselves to blame for their idiocy, Israel has been telling Europe for decades what the deal with Islam is, and they refused to listen, instead praised and romantically glorified Israel’s worst enemies who blew up Holocaust survivors inside care homes and shot rockets at school buses!

          So, to be honest I hope for the best, but I’m not really convinced anything will happen anytime soon – it WILL happen, but europeans (including brits) will let a million things slide until they get their act together.

          I thought after a 22 year old soldier was beheaded in broad daylight on his own capitals’ street, that something should have happened: crickets instead.

          I’m a jew, i have no choice but to fight as hard as I can for my survival, because I don’t know anything else.
          I have to be quicker and smarter than my enemy and have the foresight to anticipate every move and strike, if I want to survive.

          The brits never had these problems, so they’re just complacent I guess. But I have a feeling not for too long. I don;t think the UK is going down the same road as Sweden – Sweden is literally finished! The rest of Europe still has a chance, and I even include France.

          • Terry Field

            I cannot find anything you say to disagree with except:
            I have the expectation that British society will be ripped apart by Islam, and the country will never recover.

          • MissDemeanor

            that’s a very sad prophecy

          • Terry Field

            Unstoppable climate change will make all of this meaningless.

          • Kangeroo

            Climate change is a political tool of the left wing. Proof: Video, “THE GREAT GLOBAL WARMING SWINDLE”. Watch on You Tube.

          • Terry Field

            You, little chappie, are a cretinous vacuum-head.

          • David

            Did your post get stuck in 1999?

          • Terry Field

            Insolence!!!!!
            You dare to question the judgment of a mind of sparkling clarity, replete with all the knowledge of modern science, and fuelled by daily boiled eggs and soldiers!!!!!!!
            Unbrain me Sir!!

          • tamimisledus

            Just because it is sad, doesn’t mean it is not true.
            Even though I am pessimistic (like Terry Field) about the damage that islam is already inflicting on liberal societies, we must do whatever we can to halt its progress.

          • andrewsc

            It’s interesting to note the reason s why the situation is slightly better here in Australia. This country was always worried about its own security. There is less complacency in front of the danger.

          • Terry Field

            AUssie is surounded by hellish Asian overpopulated poverty-stricken unstable neighbors – except, of course for Japan. And it is starting to die from the beginning of the effects of developing global warming.

          • andrewsc

            I agree with most of what you had to say about Islam. But – off topic – the paradigm has shifted in Australia. Five years ago, economists (local and British too) were wondering whether the “decoupling” will happen. Whether the pulling power of China will save Australia from the global recession. Well, it did happen.
            As about the global warming. As a baby-boomer I learned in school about the arid zone, between the temperate climate and the equator. Sadly, Australia falls into the arid zone. It is well known that the arid zone is shifting north-south with temperature. It does so even seasonally during the year. Now assume “climate change” comes true, so it’s either warmer or colder. The arid zone will move away, up or down the map, turning most of Australia into fertile land.

          • Terry Field

            Is it also possible that the arid zone will expand and intensify, with resultant difficulties in Australia?

          • Terry Field

            Is it also possible that the arid zone will expand and intensify, with resultant difficulties in Australia?

          • Gilbert White

            You could argue that muslims prefer Oz now because it is easier to carve out a private space towards your own cultural leanings. The Indonesians also talk about breeding you out of existence.

          • Kangeroo

            There is NO reason for Europeans to be self-loathing. History proves that. The turd world’s history is just as bloody and a lot less beneficial to the world at large. Think about it. ALL the modern conveniences were creations of the WEST. Automobiles, computers. air-conditioning, modern plumbing, medical advances, aircraft, electricity…to name a few. What has the turd world given us? NOTHING. ZILCH, ZERO, NADA! Self-hatred? GIMEE A FRICKIN BREAK!!!

          • Kangeroo

            You should care because what happens to Europe because it will affect you just as much as it affects them. When Europe and the USA fall to Islam where do you think you will go? Israel? They will fall first. You should care A LOT.

          • tamimisledus

            When voting for UKIP, remember that they have a muslim MEP, muslim councillors, muslim supporters, muslim finance.

            The muslims may thank you in your ignorance for allowing them into positions of power from where they can further the muslim project of turning the UK into an islamic country.
            I certainly don’t. And neither will future generations whose lives will be completely blighted (or worse) if islam succeeds.

        • MissDemeanor

          well, I’m surprised this nonsense has been going on THIS long, but the white european is self hating and terrified of being called a name (get the F over it, it’s just words), and therefor self destructive – especially visible in politics and the media (oh the loathsome biased terrorist appeasing media, how I resent and despise them!) – cowards, 99% of them.

          the tide has definitely changed in the last few years, UKIP has had crazy success, unbelievable really how fast and hard that came – that should definately say something. well, at least I hope so, I voted UKIP and I will do so again.

          Now, as a jew, who has lost family in the Holocaust, I tend to distance myself from any emotional ties, although I love Europe, I love the UK, I love London, but Europe, the UK and the rest of Europe have not shown much love to my people, so why should I care what they do to themselves?

          In fact, the media keeps vilifying Israel at every turn, instead of praising it for defending their people and their borders at any cost, and not being traitors and sell outs like their countries are.

          I have a country that will give me a home, no matter what, and that will DEFEND AND PROTECT me, no matter what, and I’m proud to belong to such a people.

          Europeans have only themselves to blame for their idiocy, Israel has been telling Europe for decades what the deal with Islam is, and they refused to listen, instead praised and romantically glorified Israel’s worst enemies who blew up Holocaust survivors inside care homes and shot rockets at school buses!

          So, to be honest I hope for the best, but I’m not really convinced anything will happen anytime soon – it WILL happen, but europeans (including brits) will let a million things slide until they get their act together.

          I thought after a 22 year old soldier was beheaded in broad daylight on his own capitals’ street, that something should have happened: crickets instead.

          I’m a jew, i have no choice but to fight as hard as I can for my survival, because I don’t know anything else.
          I have to be quicker and smarter than my enemy and have the foresight to anticipate every move and strike, if I want to survive.

          The brits never had these problems, so they’re just complacent I guess. But I have a feeling not for too long. I don;t think the UK is going down the same road as Sweden – Sweden is literally finished! The rest of Europe still has a chance, and I even include France.

    • Kangeroo

      Hahahaha! Its been a long road downhill but you guys have finally hit bottom!

      • Terry Field

        You are a turd to laugh at other people’s troubles.
        Actually, I do not think ‘we’ have got anywhere near rock bottom yet.
        Not until the English wake up to the realities.
        A look at the Middle East – a region where psychiatric disturbance emanating from religious insanity should warn anyone off the poison – could act as a wake up to them, but no sign at all yet.

  • Chris Bond

    “our” mosques?

    Go f*ck yourself.

  • Kasperlos

    The informed reader should note that in 18 years – October 10, 2032 to be exact – the 1,300th anniversary of the Battle of Tours (aka Poitiers) will be recognized (or, in Europe’s zombie PC stupor, probably not). In 732 AD Frankish leader Charles Martel led the armies to defeat the Umayyad Caliphate forces in Islam’s northward march from Iberia. That singular glorious victory saved Christian Europe, a Europe that birthed the classical Western Tradition and Civilisation under the Catholic Church, and spawn the Renaissance. All through the centuries countless lives were lost in Europe to ward off threats of Muslim conquest (the Turkish siege of Vienna in 1683 is one other example). Today, rather than cherish the Western Tradition, the shortsighted generations in the West have sold the house, the sink, the silverware, and their grandchildren for their God: Gold, Oil, Drugs. A new extremist caliphate is being created in Syria and Iraq under ISIS. Britain would do well to read up on Monsieur Martel before the film credits roll ‘Fin’ on the story of the West.

  • Picquet

    They’re not “our” mosques. They’re a very unwelcome foreign invader.

    • David Prentice

      They remind me of the tripods bestriding the land from War of the Worlds. Utterly alien and completely hostile. And there’s 1600 of them and counting.

  • Augustus

    Police shoes at the door, please!
    Or if you prefer: Polizei Schuhe an der Tür!

  • Terry Field

    The mosques have to toe the line in the USA – otherwise they would be utterly crushed. By comparison, Britain is small, weak, and has no self-belief. Unfortunately, in the Britoland the Imams do exactly as they want to.
    In addition the country was run by madmen under the New Labour confidence-trick who actually wanted to develop these massive unreconcilable differences.
    Now it is all over. Stuffed.
    Peas be upon it.

    • cartimandua

      We believe in the UK. Politicians however are too cowardly to lay down the line.

      • Terry Field

        Belief means, for you, feel attached to; wish the best for. But that will not happen without less criminally incompetent, naive and quisling-like government. The coalition seems as gutless as the Labour lot.

  • RobertC

    David Cameron Exposed on Islam
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oxrLTYMpLC4

  • justejudexultionis

    Ban the nihilistic politco-religious death cult known as ‘Islam’ from this country.

  • justejudexultionis

    Ban the nihilistic politco-religious death cult known as ‘Islam’ from this country.

  • Baron

    The best take on the Muslim diaspora here by a long shot, Innes. Thank you. You should do more reporting of this kind, you know more than virtually any other pundit pontificating on the issue.

  • http://batman-news.com Whizjet

    Those whom the Gods wish to destroy . . . . . . .

    • Newcombe

      “Gods”? Plural? I thought there was only one! You pagan you, you’re sure to burn in hell.

      • http://batman-news.com Whizjet

        Salaam alei kum :-)

  • hdb

    I actually find quite amusing the writer’s shock at the segreation of men and women. I’m hardly into middle age yet can clearly remember golf courses where only men could play (and yes the management committees’ only had men on them, shock horror!). It was also quite normal for men of a certain class to spend time socialising in a club in London where only men were admitted. The freemasons are still solidly male only for those who would still seek a male only space. Indeed, within living memory it was quite common for British social space to be divided into male and female. We might remember this when bereating muslims for their supposedly backward ways.

    • Liz

      This wasn’t a good thing, for the same reasons it isn’t a good thing for Muslims. Like the other forms of apartheid, the gender kind has inequality and disenfranchisement built in.

    • cartimandua

      Neither golf players not freemasons encourage violence towards women gays or people in other religious groups.

    • Amgine

      Yeah, I was going to mention the Freemasons.

      Personally, I don’t think segregation is democratic or necessary. However, in some cultures, the only way that women can be safe and involved in the public sphere, is for men to be separated from them and for everyone to follow strict guidelines in conduct and dress. I find the whole idea unnecessary in the UK. I went to a single-sex school and I would be the first to ban such institutions.

  • Simon Delancey

    “Our” mosques? Surely it would be more accurate to say “their” mosques?

    • Amgine

      “One’s” mosques, perhaps.

  • pobinr

    Being Islamist & British is a contradiction in terms

    • Amgine

      It’s not all that long ago that people felt deeply that being Roman Catholic and British is a contradiction in terms.

  • Kangeroo

    As an American, I do not understand WHY the British and the Europeans have allowed this invasion.

    • Liz

      Post-colonial cultural cringe.

    • Liz

      Post-colonial cultural cringe.

    • Amgine

      What invasion?
      http://bsa-30.natcen.ac.uk/media/28923/key_findings_figure_0.1_499x321.jpg
      Please note the grey line bumping along the bottom of the graph. That line indicates the total number of Muslims, Hindus, Jews, Buddhists, Sikhs and other non-Christian religiously affiliated in the whole of the UK. How can that be called an invasion?

      In the whole of England and Wales, the number of ethnic minorities (black, asian, chinese, mixed race et al) comes to approximately 15% and those include British ethnic minorities as well as any newcomers. So, what invasion?

      • tamimisledus

        Any number of “immigrants” by those, such as muslims, who will do anything in their power to destroy the values of this country, forms an invasion.

        • Amgine

          I don’t see it. The statistics are against you. I can imagine that a great percentage of muslims would come to the UK or Europe, in general, in order to escape religious & state persecution in a muslim-run country and are drawn to the democratic rights and protections in western countries – of which people in this country are proud. And there will be many immigrants who want to return to their native countries as soon as it is safe.

          Anyway, there are many people who were born in this country who choose to become muslims and there are thousands of British non-muslims who hold views that oppose many of the apparent values held by the British establishment… people who want to do away with British institutions such as: monarchy, hunting, bishops in parliament, the union. These people hold different values and they’re still British.

          One of our values is the preparedness to take in refugees and give aid. If you want that to end you start to erode one of our country’s core values.

          • redsquirrel

            Campaigning democratically for change is not against British values. It’s probably one of the core defining values. That’s not what islamic immigrants & the their decedents are up to though.

          • Amgine

            There will, of course, be a minority of people within the larger group (though still a minority itself) who will try to use undemocratic processes and there are also some who are mentally ill who can be deranged by poor mental health and others who lack education, economic opportunity and who feel socially and politically disenfranchised who might resort to illegal means. Such people would be dealt with by HM’s laws but, as a rich nation, our government should also put in place every resource to enhance opportunities and social cohesion for people who are at risk of becoming disenfranchised in this way. In effect, we are the hosts we need to be more welcoming and less hostile ourselves, at all levels including just being neighbourly.

            The UK is not being invaded; the majority of muslims are peaceful and simply want to just get on with life. Personally, I’d be happier if they gave up on the whole religion but I feel the same way about Christians, Jews and Hindus etc.

  • Kangeroo

    Its time to expel the foreigners. Or die.

    • Amgine

      You say below that you are an American. If you’re living in the UK, do you classify yourself as a foreigner who needs to be expelled?

  • Fido Shery

    Since an advancing free country relies upon spontaneous processes to mold its wants and desires, it cannot offer equal results for everyone.

  • https://sites.google.com/site/deanjackson60/home Dean Jackson

    “In America, most mosques profess to teach a version of Islam adapted to the modern world. That’s not what I’ve found here…”

    Religion should never “adapt”, especially when the culture is debased as it is in the West.

    Ladies and gentlemen, this is yet another diversionary psy-op piece from Moscow’s agents in the West, meant to diver your attention to the following…

    Take a look at what the Russian government ordered the Russian Ministry of Defense to keep on the masthead of its official newspaper…see if you notice something odd…

    http://www.redstar.ru/

    “Krasnaya Zvezda” is Russian for “Red Star”, the official newspaper of Soviet and later Russian Ministry of Defense. The paper’s official designation is, “Central Organ of the Russian Ministry of Defense.” Note the four Soviet emblems next to the still existing Soviet era caption titled “Red Star”(!), one of the Soviet emblems including the image of Lenin, the man who removed the independent Russian nation from the map, supplanting it within the new nation called the USSR, a murderous one-party government that spread violence throughout the world in order to “liberate” the world, and bring into existence a one-world Soviet dictatorship! If the “collapse” of the USSR was real, then the “Red Star” caption, four Soviet emblems and Lenin’s image could not form the masthead of the Russian Ministry of Defense’s newspaper, due to their association with the Soviet Union and its ideals of world revolution. Imagine the official paper of the German Ministry of Defense is named “Das Third Reich”, where next to the caption are four Nazi emblems, one of the emblems sporting a profile of Adolph Hitler’s head!

    The fraudulent “collapse” of the USSR (and East Bloc) couldn’t have been pulled off until both political parties in the United States (and political parties elsewhere in the West) were co-opted by Moscow & Allies, which explains why verification of the “collapse” was never undertaken by the West, such verification being (1) a natural administrative procedure (since the USSR wasn’t occupied by Western military forces); and (2) necessary for the survival of the West. Recall President Reagan’s favorite phrase, “Trust, but verify”.

    Notice that not one political party in the West demanded verification of the collapse of the USSR, and the media failed to alert your attention to this fact, including the “alternative” media. When determining whether the “former” USSR is complying with arms control treaties, what does the United States do to confirm compliance? Right, the United States sends into the “former” USSR investigative teams to VERIFY compliance, yet when it’s the fate of the West that’s at stake should the collapse of the USSR be a ruse, what does the United States do to confirm the collapse? Nothing!

    It gets worse–the West also never (1) de-Communized the Soviet Armed Forces of its Communist Party officer corps, which was 90% officered by Communist Party members; and (2) arrested and detained the 6-million vigilantes that assisted the Soviet Union’s Ministry of the Interior control the populations of the larger cities during the period of “Perestroika” (1986-1991)!

    There was no verification, de-Communization and de-mobilization.

  • Gwangi

    You could of course have Muslim schools which taught the MODERATE version of Islam, one which accepts the Koran is not the word of God, that Reason and looking at the world through science and education comes first, and trumps the Koran, if needs be. That was a common version of Islam 1000 years ago in its ‘Golden Age’.
    What we have now – and what most Muslims and non-Muslims see as Islam – is a backwards Pakistani village peasant version, with the need to pray 5 times a day (no such need in moderate Islam, as there is no need for most Catholics to pray every morning and evening).
    Literalist interpretations of old texts cobbled together in antiquity leads to heads being filled with vile and violent nonsense. Such brainwashing should be, if not banned, then monitored very closely, and countered with an absolutely evidence and fact-based school system which teaches the fact of evolution (which appallingly half of teachers at UK state schools say they only teach as ‘one alternative’ so as not to offend all the brown religious persons in their classes! A betrayal of The Enlightenment and decent Western values!).
    It is time we all stopped faffing about and worrying about offending minority groups. If they are backwards, abusive, intolerant, damaging and wrong – and boy, Muslims and mosques are wrong – we should not only tell them so but ACT. Close schools and mosques and arrest imams, for example. Incitement to violence and murder is a crime – yet we allow Muslims to call for others’ death day in day our. SICK OF IT!!!

  • David Prentice

    The phrase moderate* Muslims should be asterisked like so…

    * Until the demographic tipping point is reached

    • Jollyjacktar

      In less than a single lifetime – then? No more Chirstmas.

      • Amgine

        It might be called something else but people will always want to eat too much, spend too much and argue with relatives – so the traditional Chirstmas will never die.

        • Jollyjacktar

          Dream on.

    • tamimisledus

      Quite true. Also:
      Moderate* Muslims.
      *Their (current, as you imply) behaviour is moderate. Their beliefs are extremely opposed to British beliefs.

  • Terry Field

    “At a Sufi circle I attended, followers included the Queen in their prayers. When asked whether it was permissible for a Muslim to join MI6, they answered without hesitation that their sheikh had told them it was.”

    SO, to join in British life, a Sufi has to obtain ‘permission’ from the ‘sheikh’.
    That tells one all one needs to know about the alien culture.

    If things go on unabated, then in a few years time they will have to obtain further permission form the rattle and then the roll.

  • Gondal Maan

    I am annoyed at your very poor work here. Your findings clearly show that you have done very little or no research at all. I would very interested to know exactly which mosque(s) you have attended and where exactly you got your information from? You refer to the school-of-thought being Deobandism (a school of thought formed in colonial India) however, most mosques in the UK do not follow this school of thought in the UK. Having said that even those mosques that do follow a Deobandi school of thought are as not as hardline as you make them out to be.

    Yes a problem does exist. The problem that exists is not actually with any mosque as such but rather with the internet. Unfortunately there are groups and individuals who have taken quotes from the Koran (forgetting that the Koran is meant to be taken in a entirety not just single quotes – and even these need to be understood in context) and placed them on various websites around the internet in order to justify some political cause. This information is then accessed by people who know very little to start with, that read a narrative that ends up in them believing in something that is not even true. Such groups and individuals do not represent any mosque or community. I can say this as I have followed this subject very closely for many years and visited many mosques.

    If this was a fact and mosques were really teaching such ideas, then wouldn’t we have whole communities that were radical? The problem that exists (as I have mentioned) is indivduals and small groups, often that no one gives the time of day to and that are classed as crackpots. Unfortunately the media focuses on such groups and individuals so much (as this news is sensational) that the public begin to believe that this somehow happening all over the country when it is not.

    The people at the mosque that I attend went out of their way to condem and work against terrorism and extremism, as have many others that I am aware of. One of our local mosques even provides the homeless and needy with free meals every evening during ramadan, but such causes never get any kind of platform in the media, as all the attention is given to those nutcases, as this wouldn’t make any kind of sensational headlines.

    It is such a great shame and very sad that a website like this has taken a similar route and produced an article that is simply untrue and passing it off to members of the public, in order to create a panic and suspician amongst their fellow citizens. I request that you do a proper research and present the facts as they are, even if they don’t grab headlines. This is your responisibilty if you really are a credible news provider.

  • Fargo Wells

    Since a nation’s advance mostly results from the efforts of its more well off citizens, central governments that assault those citizens will naturally halt technological progress and reduce the nation’s overall quality of life.

  • Cade Yaeger

    I’ve found this to be a useful beacon in the ever-shifting fog of illusions conjured up by today’s liberals and progressives: http://www.amazon.com/dp/B0094KY878

  • MrJones

    Deobandi is Wahabbi. It has a different historical root but it has been (or was) the Saudi’s chosen vehicle for Wahabbi funding in the subcontinent. The money went into teaching institutions: seminaries, mosques, madrassas etc, hence why the percentage of people adhering to the wahabbi version has been going up consistently for 30 years from it’s originally low base and why there’s more among the younger half than the older half.

    It’s no different to lefties and global warming – get your people into the schools and brainwash the kids when they’re young.

    • Amgine

      Religion: where washing brains makes them grottier.

  • jackie jackson

    It’s time all mosques where outlawed as unbritish,

    • David Prentice

      And bulldozed

    • Amgine

      Are you going to outlaw yorkshire puddings in cornwall and cornish pasties in essex? What about my traditional Christmas curry?

    • Liberanos

      An un-British mosq

  • http://www.englishstandard.org/ Wyrdtimes

    It’s a British problem only in so much that it is the UK parliament that has allowed this to happen in England.

  • http://www.citizenwarrior.com/2010/09/what-non-muslims-dont-like-about-islam.html Citizen Warrior dot Com

    Is Saudi Arabia Moderate?
    Guess who paid for your local masque. Find out about freedom of religion in Saudi Arabia.

  • http://www.citizenwarrior.com/2010/09/what-non-muslims-dont-like-about-islam.html Citizen Warrior dot Com

    Pat said it better, so funny it make you want to cry, see youtube
    UKIP FINALLY Someone Tells The Truth – Pat Condell

  • spenceriswrong

    I’m late to this particular party but I like to remind people that there are large areas of the UK now under exclusive shariah control. By that I mean that no crime is reported to the legitimate forces of UK law and order – up to and including murder. Am I hysterical, paranoid, racist, xenophobic or that stupid meaningless word Islamophobic? No, my source is the chief inspector of constabulary.

    http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2014/01/18/tom-winsor-police-minorities_n_4621880.html

  • Kevin Russell

    Perhaps the government should create an online destination where Muslims can report illegal imams and illegal activity anonymously? We know these places exist – if nothing else we’ll be able to gauge whether or not there’s any will to at all to want change. http://www.mosquemonitor.gov?

  • http://www.ecenglish.com/ Luciano Borg

    Is this why so many hundreds of thousands – if not millions – of British Servicemen lost their lives in World War II – to pave the way for this?

  • tamimisledus

    Another misdirection about the true nature of muslim beliefs. It is not just Deobandis who say muslims must not take non-muslims as friends. It is allah himself who says it to all muslims. See here – http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Quran/009-friends-with-christians-jews.htm.

  • tamimisledus

    Another misdirection. For muslims, allah has ordained that the sharia is the most perfect religious, social, personal system. The British system stands in total opposition to the sharia.
    Although it sometimes seems that we have been forced to accept many of the vile
    social customs of islam, to my knowledge, British life has never been
    based on islamic sharia.

    In no way can islam be in the slightest bit British.

    Those who say so are ignorant of British values and beliefs, muslim values and beliefs, or ignorant of both.

  • Jay Dillon

    This is hilarious: “When asked whether it was permissible for a Muslim to join MI6, they answered without hesitation that their sheikh had told them it was.”

    I suppose MI6 has never heard of the Trojan Horse, infiltration, and subversion. Think.

  • TomT

    I’m looking forward to reading this book by Innes Bowen, I think I’m one of the silent millions that has woken up in the last 12-24 months and realised, hopefully not too late, that we’re heading down a dangerous path and if it continues we’re in for very big trouble right here on our own shores!

    • tamimisledus

      I am not familiar with the Bowen book, but I think you should read this – http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0979492955? – before reading any more books on islam. It will help you (and anyone else who may be reading) to understand that the main threat to the West and its hard won values, is not from the terrorists, but the so-called moderate muslims already in this country (three million and counting) who believe that Sharia (allah’s law, as communicate to mohammad and recorded in the koran) is the only system that should prevail on earth.
      I guarantee that you will never look at islam in the same light again.
      Just a suggestion.

  • mercurio

    All Religion is Ignorance

    • http://www.ecenglish.com/ Luciano Borg

      But only one religion preaches that 72 virgins will greet the suicide bomber; that women should be treated as inferior beings; that a woman who commits adultery be stoned as the woman walks away scott free; that a woman who claims she was raped will be punished unless she has three men to back up her story; men can marry young girls; etc etc etc etc etc!

      • mercurio

        Well all of the 3 Abrahamic religions are misogynist (in fact orthodox Jews, sounds very similar to what is happening with the Islam crew)…

  • Neil Orange peel

    The truth is that The Spectator is more liberal (left-wing) than the fascists over at the Guardian. Confused? Well, once again the Guardian today have another Jew hating article (and say bugger all about Hamas wanting all Jews dead, regardless of the territory the Isrealis may give them). The Guardian, in my opinion, are anti-semitic. Try and metion that you think Sharia Law in the UK is not a good idea, or that perhaps they should stop being so biased in their coverage of the Arab/Israeli problem and guess what…you get banned. Free speech is supposed to be a liberal virtue.

    At least the Spectator allows free speech, can see the truth with this issue and will shout it from the rooftops. I may not agree with everything said here, but it is 10x more left wing than the fascist Guardian in my opinon. Try and say that ISIS are motivated by Islam (and that the clue is in the name and the fact they all shout ‘Alan Akbar’ before chopping off heads) and you will get banned or pre-moderated. Shouts of ‘Islamophobia’ will rain down on you for mentioning that the issue is islam. Not Tony Blair. Not George Bush. Islamic terrorism pre-dates both of them. They’e always wanted all theJews dead (ask them yourself) and always wanted Sharia Law (by force or by stealth). Maybe not all of them, of course. But most of those I’ve spoken too in real life, rather that the crud fed to them by these ‘Councils of ‘self-pitying, concession demanding lying’ Islamic Scholars. The truth is that politicans (local and national) know that if they even HINT at the FACT that Islam ‘just might’ be the issue here, that they risk being attacked. Not just verbally, too. They are not fit to lead.

    We all know, trying to speak out against stuff like ‘Fath/Terrorist Schools’ is deemed ‘Islamophobia’.

    To quote Pat Condell, it’s not Islamophobia, it’s islamorealism. I’m not Jewish btw.

  • Sue Smith

    A stupid, apathetic society deserves what it gets. Read this!!

    http://quadrant.org.au/magazine/2015/07-08/bordering-hopeless/

  • evad666

    “The introduction of a madrassa curriculum at a secular state school in
    Birmingham and talk of Christian pupils at risk of ‘cultural isolation’
    seem to have come as a revelation to (the political classes) of non-Muslim Britain.”

    • Neil Orange peel

      Perhaps they need to meet with Muslim Community Leaders and discuss how best to ‘educate’ the rest of Brimingham to ‘understand’ their needs.

      After all, the Hindus, Buddhists and Sikhs are always asking for such stuff…oh wait…

  • Dan O’Connor

    Has Davey boy Cameron the PR spiv and world famous pseudo expert on Islamic jurisprudence popped up yet to remind us that this is just one more thing that has absolutely ” nothing to do with Islam or Muslims ” ?

  • Liberanos

    It’s not at all surprising that living a life of bizarre and primitive superstition right in the middle of a modern civilised society evokes surprise in a visitor. It also sickens us.

  • WTF

    There is only one Islam, the one taught in the Quran & Haddith.

    Just like Christianity and other faiths, there are marginal differences of approach BUT the central tenet of all religions remain intact. Christianity teaches compassion as per the New Testament whilst Islam teaches submission & control through barbarity where ever its schooling is carried out.

  • cartimandua

    I have just read something incendiary which our media has not of course mentioned.
    Norway has instituted a robust deportation process of people linked to extremist Mosques, failed asylum seekers, and criminals.
    Violent crime has dropped 31% in one year.. just one year.

  • Mark

    Why is a cartoon of a union flag defaced with an IS symbol being used on this site to publicise a letter asking us to stop using the term IS and use Daesh (which means the same in Arabic) instead?

    The cartoon is tasteless, at the very least.

    Oh I get it, a tasteless cartoon and nobody dies.

    Except they did, in Sousse.

  • 007harvey

    How
    Islam is Taking Over The World: Islamization Explained
    https://youtu.be/YpM6QKaAgP0

    Muslim
    Leaders Declare Aim Of World Domination. Rome, London, Spain, Paris, America,
    ISIS
    https://youtu.be/ZmGRshS0PAw

    David
    Wood on the 3 stages of Jihad
    https://youtu.be/9rjdO4cfeEg

    Child
    Sex and Paedophilia in islam
    https://youtu.be/0LE3QARjIZg

    Three
    things you (probably) don’t know about islam
    https://youtu.be/fgsrnmzxEUY

    Seven
    main reasons why I left Islam – Proof Islam is false
    https://youtu.be/ZZ6c66G99A4

    Muslims
    Are Taking Over The World at an ALARMING Rate – MUSLIM IMMIGRATION
    https://youtu.be/_kKkY5EpVpY

  • 007harvey
  • 007harvey

    One
    Million Child Victims of Muslim Rape Gangs in the U.K.
    http://www.frontpagemag.com/2015/arnold-ahlert/one-million-child-victims-of-muslim-rape-gangs-in-the-u-k/

    UK
    report: Muslim men 200 times more prone to rape children than non-Muslims
    http://10news.dk/?p=1009

    NEW
    REPORT: CHILD SEXUAL ABUSE PREVALENT IN AREAS WITH HIGH ASIAN POPULATIONS

    http://www.breitbart.com/london/2015/06/18/new-report-child-sexual-abuse-prevalent-in-areas-with-high-asian-populations/

  • Snowmuncher

    Has the title of this article changed ?

  • craigs mathematical science

    Its Taliban not “Taleban” Also as for the women are told to cover their faces? I dont know where you have been? The vast no the VAST majority of Muslim women in the UK do not cover their face! Indeed they go out to University or work socialise with other women, just they choose to be modest and not dress in revealing cloths and be seen as a piece of mean as opposed to a lady. I am a whit Englishman who married a Pakistani Muslim woman as I just wanted a woman that cares and would not go on holiday to sleep with 20 men. I do not tell her to do anything see likes to cook my food and care about me. Knowing she could never be bought and I can trust her 100% I love it! In the Pakistani “Muslim” community I have never had a problem they say well done sister you found an Englishman. In the white English community we came across a few jealous white women saying I should be with a white woman. Though never again will I

    • Kenneth Moir

      As a “whit” Englishman your command of the English language is crap.

  • craigs mathematical science

    It say piece of mean it should say meat

  • Dexter vs Sinister

    What is truly incredible is that no sooner do you mention Muslim problem/Islamic terror than their little Red friends pop out from under the rocks they live under to defend them, almost to the point of utter insanity.

    Even when the genuinely Moderate Muslim, Asad Shah was murdered in Glasgow by a fanatical Islamist, it sends them into a frenzy, because they have to compute from both sides of their brains at the same time. The worst example is the “Nothing to do with Islam” mantra. Which is the most emetic piece of craven cognitive dissonance of the modern era.

  • Thomas J. Hennigan

    “In a 2011 survey of Islam in the United States, 56 per cent of mosques described themselves as following an interpretation of Islam adapted to modern circumstances”. Do you seriously think they are going to tell the truth to those who do surveys? This is pure takiyya, deception, as another studies bears out the fact that 80% of mosques in the U.S. follow teach jihad. Not at all unusual as most mosques have been financed by Saudi Arabia and obviously the Saudi Wahibists are not going to give free money unless their version is maintained.

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