Features

Witness to a stoning

A tipper truck dumped heaps of red sandstone for those without sin to fling at the women under their shrouds

7 June 2014

9:00 AM

7 June 2014

9:00 AM

Attending public executions, whether beheadings or stonings, is not my predilection, yet one does come across them in the course of life in Arabia and Pakistan. Beheading and stoning are the accepted penalties for a range of presumed offences in much of the Muslim world, and the all-male crowd — especially the old men — push and shove outside Riyadh’s main mosque after Friday morning prayer for a better view of offenders losing their heads by the ceremonial sword. The seeping cadavers and their heads are left on the tarmac pour encourager les autres.

Further east, outside a much smaller mosque in the desert near Hofuf, the miscreants were two women making their living by harlotry, and hence adulterers, due to be judicially stoned after the amplified rant from the imam. The mosque had been selected as a venue I think because it had no concrete forecourt. It had therefore been possible to scoop mechanically two neat holes in the ground, each lined with an open-topped oil drum.

Let me quote from my notes. It was again a Friday, the holy day. ‘There must have been 60 or 70 cars and a couple of hundred people, some perched on the car bonnets, and four or five police cars, blue and white, and a police van with a pulsing beacon beyond the crowd. A proclamation was now being read out, flat and deadly, the reader having difficulty with a name. The head and shoulders of one binte were already sticking out of one of the holes. Just then two policemen were lifting the other from where the van was and inserting her, carefully, into the other hole. She was trussed in some manner, arms down the side of her, in leg-irons probably.

‘I couldn’t spot where the first rock came from — maybe from the mutaween, the religious police, “upholders of virtue and stoppers of sin’’, identifiable by their beards. The uniformed police, lined up, were busy throwing rocks. A tipper truck had brought up a load of Type Two aggregate of red sandstone from the road-building being undertaken by my companion’s construction company, and dumped in two heaps for those without sin to fling at the women under their shrouds. The targets could not of course duck down into their holes: they were too narrow.’

Well, that was and is the law out there, and the practice. Stoning for adultery was Moses’ law too, but the Jews haven’t practised it for a couple of millennia or so, as far as I know, just as we have given up burning our apostates. The merit of stoning, like the firing squad, is that one can’t ascribe the killing to a given individual.

Over in Pakistan last week, the stoning to death of Farzana Parveen, married and pregnant, wasn’t the result of a formal legal indictment even though it was taking place in the open space in front of the High Court in Lahore, that most sophisticated of Pakistan’s cities. It was done, it seems, mostly by her own family at the behest of her father, who regarded as adultery his daughter’s marriage to a man other than the one he had chosen. Here the police didn’t participate in the stone-throwing, but just stood and watched, together with a chance assembly of lawyers and passers-by.

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The act of stoning, while not actually lawful in Pakistan, was done in what is called a ‘climate of impunity’ in the rigorous Islamic tradition of daughters marrying who they’re told to, and in the light of the awareness of several hundred other such killings in Pakistan every year going unpunished.

This time, however, someone took a smartphone clip of what was going on; the wide world saw it, and gulped. After a pause of days, and international outcry, the Prime Minister of Pakistan sniffed his disapproval, and one or two family members have since been taken into custody.

But in truth the western world’s railings against honour killings, death sentences for apostates, murderous fatwas, clitorectomy, Islamism in all its manifestations from al-Qa’eda to Boko Haram, are virtually nowhere echoed in the Islamic world itself. Good citizens of Muslim allegiance and vaguely moderating organisations like the Muslim Council of Britain are called in to the media microphones to distance ‘true’ Islam from the categories of barbarism. But they are a tiny western-dwelling elite, living in a part of the world informed for a couple of thousand years by the values of Hellenism and Judaeo-Christianity. They are profoundly alien to the Muslim world.

Out there, no hierarchies exist beyond the (Shiite) ayatollahs of Iran to speak for ‘Islam’. There are no essentially spiritual leaders acknowledged, no popes or Canterbury archbishops, moderators, orthodox patriarchs and the like to speak comparably for the bodies of Muslim adherents, or collectively guide them. For there is today no perceptible yeast of contemporary Islamic theology, no debate, and hence no effective mechanism of change and evolution so as to allow this religion to play a coherent part in the world as it is today. Debate is not allowed, and has not been allowed for centuries.

The phenomenon of Islam, meaning submission, deriving from Bedouin-adapted half-heard Hebrew stories, spread its rule by sword and skill with astonishing rapidity across the southern Mediterranean littoral and Levant, from southern Spain to Baghdad, from the 7th century ad. It was at that time tolerant and inclusive of the cultures and faiths it overran, and rich in ideas, techniques, art and learning. But Islam was undermined in the Islamic Caliphate in Baghdad when the tolerant, outreaching mutazilim regime under the caliph al-Mamun was swept aside by the Hanbali diehards and their fellow-travellers. This was as early as the 9th century. By 848 ad, progressive Islam was doomed.

Today in its heartland, Sufism is outlawed together with satellite dishes; women are deemed created too inadequate to drive a car; rote-parroting of the Koran is the route to understanding eternal truth; and the Creator of the Universe is deemed to judge righteousness by what a person eats or drinks. You do not think for yourself. Obscurantism rules.

Islam knows it is under siege by an unconquerable and incomprehensible prevailing global zeitgeist. When Islam burns churches in Alexandria, Baghdad, or Pakistan, it is because it fears them.

Here is my cue to declare that among my dearest friends I number certain Muslims. But either they are Sufis, with whom I share soul, or we stick to the secular in our range of thought. Secularity or spiritual insight may prove the ultimate keys.

When I picked up that sight on screen of Farzana’s death by stoning on 27 May, my mind went at once to the martyrdom by the same method of Stephen, celebrated in the Christian calendar, at the hands of diehard Jewry for proclaiming their recently crucified countryman, Jesus, the Messiah. That mob then laid their coats at the feet of a young zealot named Saul, who approved the killing.

Saul was to become that Paul to whom we owe so much and who was himself to be martyred. And I venture that the greater world’s reconciliation with Islam will be achieved in truth only by that same route taken by the figure at the scene of St Stephen’s death: by love, example, eternal patience, and I daresay conversion and the grace of God.


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Show comments
  • zanzamander

    I venture that the greater world’s reconciliation with Islam will be achieved in truth only by that same route taken by the figure at the scene of St Stephen’s death: by love, example, eternal patience, and I daresay conversion and the grace of God.

    There are two alternatives as I can see:

    One is to be honest and brave about it and come out and declare in no uncertain terms that Islam, in its present (or original) form is intolerant, violent, bigoted, and discriminatory and therefore, like any bad idea, is unacceptable. This requires a certain amount of courage, resolution and preparedness for the inevitable fallout.

    The second alternative, the one preferred by our politicians, media and educators is to hide away in a mental bunker. We just baton down the hatches and take that same route taken by the figure at the scene of St Stephen’s death otherwise known as a diet of hope and self-delusion, hoping that the storm will soon pass us by and everything will be alright in the end if only we just wait this one out.

    Well guess what, once we peer out of our hideout, we’ll see that everything that we’ve built over the centuries with our liberal democratic mortar has been blown asunder.

    The choice is ours and I know which option we’re programmed to pick.

  • zanzamander

    It was at that time tolerant and inclusive of the cultures and faiths it overran, and rich in ideas, techniques, art and learning.

    This is actually not true.

    The peoples of the cultures and faiths that Islam overran were subjected to genocide and ethnic cleansing and once their numbers were reduced to a tiny minority were granted a status of third class citizens. Jews and Christians were made to wear ill fitting garbs (different shoes on each foot) and their foreheads shaved. They had to give up their beds to any Muslim who knocked on their door in the middle of the night and avert their gaze when crossing a believer on the street.

    They had, and still don’t in many Islamic countries, rights to property, commerce or education and were forbidden to carry our their religious rites in public.

    So to say what you’ve said is nothing but wishful thinking on our part. It gives us a hope that when eventually Islam does overrun our culture and faith, that it will be just as tolerant and benevolent as it once was in (the mythical) past.

    • Blindsideflanker

      All these peoples must have been really appreciative for the benevolence of the ‘religion of peace’ …

      622 Mohammed went to Yathrib where he invited the Jews there
      to join his religion, when they refused he threw them out of the town, changing the name to Medina.
      633 Moslem Arab armies invade Syria and Iraq.
      636 Byzantium driven out of Syria.
      638 Jerusalem falls to the Moslem Arabs.
      640 Egypt taken and North Africa absorbed.
      640 Cyprus raided.
      655 Khurasan conquered.
      664 Kabul taken
      690 Carthage taken
      708 -11 Hindu Kush invaded and settled.
      711 Straits of Gibraltar crossed destroying the Visigoth
      kingdom in Spain, France invaded.
      The Franks stopped further advance in France, Byzantium and Constantinople stopping them in Anatolia, Khazars in Azerbaijan.
      1453 Constantinople falls to Ottomans, St Sophia the heart
      of Christian Orthodox religion is made into a mosque.
      1459 Invaision of Serbia and Trebizond.
      1450 Peloponnese occupied.
      1452 Boznia and Herzegovina fall, as well as Albania and the Ionian Islands. Venice besieged, Crete, Cyprus taken and Turkish attacks going
      on until the 1700’s.

      • Jackthesmilingblack

        In Brit Uni, History 101 starts at 1901.

        • James Lovelace

          In 1974, a classic book (from the 1930s) on the history of islam and its influences, was published in a 2nd edition.

          The ONLY difference was the addition of a new opening chapter. In it, the scholar warned that the evils of islam were being whitewashed by Leftist academics and clergy in the west.

          We have had 50 years of deception by the Left. If this whitewashing of islam had never happened, then in the 1970s and beyond immigration of muslims to the west would have been challenged.

          • Kennybhoy

            If you have not already done so I can strongly recommend John Laffin’s works…

      • Vuil

        I have reported you to the Mufti of Baghdad for exposing the truth about Islam.

        Muslims, as you know, practise Taqiya, to deceive the Kaffirs and so far we are doing very nicely with the help of the Liberal press (the Guardian is my particualr favourite) and the Taqiya message ‘religion of peace’.

        Once of the Caliphate of Britain is established you will suffer Infidel.

      • Ganpati23

        So pretty 3rd division compared to us Britishers, then. Just sayin’, like.

  • MikeF

    “no debate, and hence no effective mechanism of change and evolution” – which is why the western left is so in thrall to it. That is the model for the type of society they wish to create but with themselves as the ‘imams’.

  • zanzamander

    Btw, that picture of the stones would not pass the divine muster. You see, for a good lapidation, the size of the stone “shall not be too large to kill the convict by one or two throws and at the same time shall not be too small to be called a pebble”.

    You see the torture has to be drawn out as far as possible at the same time inflicting severe pain with every throw.

    Quite frankly Mr Stacy, I’m afraid them stones in the photo are just too big for the job at hand.

    • Bonkim

      Isn’t there a Saudi Standard for insruements of execution?

      • Dutchnick

        The EU PC lobby are to issue guidance for the size of stones suitable for public stoning. In consultation with Health and Safety size, lack of sharpness and weight will be considerations and outer packaging and weight limits will be specified. Part of the ongoing respect of cultural diversity.

        • Bonkim

          assume the Netherlanders are one step ahead in the game and well trained.

  • freddiethegreat

    Just a question: Adultery takes at least two. Where were the men?????

    • Bonkim

      A man is allowed four wives but any woman that takes on four men is a whore and committing adultery followed by execution . Simple and fair justice.

  • curious

    So the message seems to be – be nice to Islam or another innocent woman gets it…..hmm…….

  • Angela_K

    This is the same islam that claims it has respect for women, the same islam that mutilates female genitals so they can’t enjoy sex, the same islam that forces women to don body bags.

    • global city

      You have to interpret what islamists mean b y taking a similar approach you have to with Marxists. You can eventually establish some sort of ‘rationale’ if you look from a ‘Marxian perspective’.

      From the Islamist perspective, being cruel to women IS being respectful, as it is helping to keep them/return them to the path of righteousness…. or so the madness goes.

      • James Lovelace

        You are right, but don’t go far enough.

        Marxism and islam are both totalitarian/total worldviews. There is no truth beyond what their doctrines say: every other statement outside of their doctrines is fundamentally not true.

        That is why people like Anjem Choudary can say of the victims of the 7/7 bombings “only the muslims who died that day are innocent”. Having heard of islam and having not converted makes one guilty.

    • roger

      Saudi Arabia (because it is ‘owned’ by the Saud family) lets men wear cool white cloth while women have to wear hot black cloth, why we don’t object has to do with oil.

      • Alexsandr

        we could tell them where to shove a lot of their oil if we got fracking.

  • Blindsideflanker

    What rubbish. Islam flicks between a persecution and inferiority complex to bully in an instant. One moment they are kicking the sh1t out of minorities, the next they are bleating about Islamophobia. Of course they can get away with their intolerant behaviour because of the bleeding hearts of the West are always ready and willing to cast us in the wrong and never have a bad word for the ‘religion of peace’.

    Look at the cr8p we have had to put up with from the adherents to Islam here, burning books, wearing their fascistic religious garb, having to accommodate their barbaric culinary practices, being told that they are offended about this that and the other, setting up their medieval judicial system, and then when we are outraged that some of their adherents try to cut off the head of Lee Rigby in the middle of a street, we are the ones told that we are in the wrong and Islamophbes.

    Where ever Islam is in a minority you get terrorism. Where ever Islam is in the majority, everybody else gets a raw deal. Fact, what ever religion or nation there is on the earth, even the most tolerant and laid back, Islam makes its self bloody intolerant nuisance to them.

    • Shazza

      Where there is islam, there is horror.

      • Blindsideflanker

        Certainly agro. The Dutch, by any measure a pretty laid back bunch have had their fill of Islam. The Canadians, a pretty inoffensive nation, but not for Islam, who have managed to find something the Canadians have offended them about. The Buddhists, they won’t even harm an insect, but Islam has so wound them up they can’t tolerate them any more. OZ, where loads of people go to make a new life, but not for Islam where they seek to patrol the beeches telling women they are whores for sunbathing. Sweden, Denmark, all tolerant nations who have had their fill of Islam.

        Where ever Islam goes, trouble follows.

        • X30X

          I beg to differ.

          islam goes to The Least Resistance, being allowed by those who are incumbents, aka citizens/voters of The Target country.

          (islam and Dracula have the same Modus Operandi.)

          • roger

            So the resistance must be global and strong.

          • X30X

            it’s a MUST.

          • James Lovelace

            “islam and Dracula have the same Modus Operandi”

            Study the life of Vlad Tepes (the inspiration for Dracula), and it was clear that his evil actions were learned at the hands of muslims (he was a captive of them for years as a child/young man). His horrific violence was an attempt to out-do the violence by muslims.

          • X30X

            YES!
            Bram Stoker called it as “Turkeyland”.
            Regards,
            X30X

          • Kennybhoy

            “Enter freely and of your own free will!”

          • X30X

            INVITATION to Harker, before his entering Castle Dracula.

      • Kitty MLB

        Indeed its a utterly barbaric religion, and one without
        an ounce of respect for humanity.Their mentality
        is still living in the dark ages.
        Savagery, manipulation, intolerance, and the word
        you used, Shazza, horror.
        Why on earth, must we in the West accommodate
        such people who wish to destroy our religion,
        values, culture and even existence.

        • Michael J Fenelon

          Kitty: Because our politicians are corrupt as well as stupid.

    • Daviejohn

      Best comment on this subject I have seen in a long while, thank you.

    • James Lovelace

      “Islam flicks between a persecution and inferiority complex to bully in an instant. ”

      This is a core part of islam. Every other page of the koran says either
      a) that muslims are the victims of everyone else, or
      b) that muslims are superior to everyone else

    • Jules Wright

      Bang on the money. It’s also time that the nonsensical left wing smear term ‘Islamophobia’ was debunked. A phobia is an irrational fear. Fear of Islam is rational, justified and one that demands, finally, some moral backbone from those who should know better.

  • jesseventura2

    Ridicule of these vermin and EU referendum on returning them to countries of origin?

  • Kennybhoy

    Mr Stacey.

    How did this get past Nelson?

    This is the most intelligent thing about Islam I have read in years. It reminds me of the works of the late John Laffin.

    You are a brave man sir. Please, please take care of yourself…

    God Bless.

    • pp22pp

      Brave? Precisely what risk has Mr Stacey taken?

      • roger

        He risks a fatwa and murder from religious nutters of course.

    • Kitty MLB

      Yes indeed what has happened to the world where human
      life can mean so little that one can be murdered , generally
      speaking of course for just having a opinion.

  • MikeF

    Anyone else noticed that there suddenly seems to be no coverage of that poor but obviously immensely brave woman in Sudan?

    • Saikourufu

      Probably the Sudanese are waiting for the hype to get over in order to get rid of her…

    • CBinTH

      I think she’s being released…

  • MikeF

    Anyone else noticed that there suddenly seems to be no coverage of that poor but obviously immensely brave woman in Sudan?

  • tjamesjones

    Wow.

  • Saikourufu

    But still a lot needs to be done…

    Sahar and Jawaher speak out against the crimes of the King & his sons.
    http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=VI44jJSjc_U

    Besides that good example we also need to have the civilization all courage to challenge and put islam itself to test…

    St John of Damascus on Islam
    http://www.bombaxo.com/blog/?p=210

    Michael Nazir-Ali: Islamic history and ideologi in the Arab world & the West 1:4
    http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=K_dYswpp9WM

    Melanie Phillips – Islam in Europe
    http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=bH6QO9MfaH4

    Egyptian Philosopher Mourad Wahba: Egypt and the Muslim Brotherhood
    http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HUclU5Z0Vek

  • Jackthesmilingblack

    “Attending public executions, whether beheadings or stonings…”
    What`s uncivilized about that. Except you can`t get a cold beer while you`re watching.

  • MooseWinkle2014

    “And I venture that the greater world’s reconciliation with Islam ”
    Reconciling with Islam is like reconciling with Nazism or Communism. Does the world really need to “reconcile” with a 7th Century death cult? I sure hope not.
    I’d rather see the world wake up to the real message of the Qu’ran. No not the peaceful message written when Muhammad was living in Mecca and was persecuted by pagans.
    No silly the OTHER Qu’ran. The violent part that ABROGATES the earlier peaceful versus for those of you playing along at home. The part written when Muhammad was older and conquered Medina and beheaded 800 Jews for their temerity of not converting to Islam.
    That’s the Qu’ran the world needs to wake up to. If anyone wants to start now they might google “Qu’ran Abrogation” to get started.

    • john

      “7th Century death cult”
      Unlike those who daily declaim the glory of the crucifiction of JC – a 1st century death cult.

      • MooseWinkle2014

        That’s funny. You think because Jesus died on the cross then Christianity is a death cult. That’s not what I mean by death cult.

        When I say Islam is a death cult I mean Islam implores Muslims to kill unbelievers. So since the 7th century Muslims have been killing unbelievers just for the fact they’re unbelievers. Hence death cult.

        That was easy wasn’t it? If you’re still having trouble I can repost the text in crayon. Just let me know.

        • john

          Christianity exists only because of the fact (myth?) of JC’s death and resurrection. Without that he’s just another 1st century wandering rabbi.
          You may not be aware that Christians have killed people who rejected the religion numerous times in history. Jews, Crusades, Mary Stuart, Elizabeth 1? Not to mention the thousands killed by Spanish conquistadores etc.
          Even today we have some ugly story out of Ireland where a graveyard of 800 babies has been found in a Catholic setting. Religion has a dreadful history of violence towards non-believers.

          • MooseWinkle2014

            All your examples of Christians killing people are a result of the Catholic church which since the Protestant Reformation is considered a heresy. Catholicism has about as much in common with Christianity as Islam does.
            Jesus Christs message was perverted by Emperor Constantine when he adopted it as a state religion against the explicit teaching of Jesus: “Give onto Caesar what is Caesar’s and give onto God what is Gods”.
            But of course you probably get your news from the Liberal Media so you don’t know that about Christianity.
            What’s truly disgusting to me is you could even make your argument its so bankrupt. But lets say for arguments sake you’re right. Christians aren’t killing people TODAY in the name of religion but Islam is. There have been 23,000 deadly Islamic terrorist attacks since 9/11/2001. I can’t think of any Christian attacks.
            My advice to you is stop believing what the Liberal Media tells you about Islam because it’s dead wrong.

          • john

            No idea what most of this rant is about. The Crusades were a bit before the Prorestant Reormation. Elizabeth was a Protestant. The KKK in the US was (is) a Protestant body killing Jews, Catholics and blacks. Christians will kill today if they find themselves threatened and in a position of power. Religions often teach that they alone have the truth and non-believers must be destroyed.

          • MooseWinkle2014

            “No idea what most of this rant is about.”

            None of those examples have any grounding in Jesus Christs original message. All of those examples are perversions of Jesus Christs ORIGINAL message.

            You don’t get it do you? Christians didn’t carry out 23,000 deadly terrorists attacks. MUSLIMS carried out 23,000 deadly terrorists attacks. A day doesn’t go by where some Muslim in America is arrest, on trial, or in the act of committing a terrorist act IN THE NAME OF ISLAM.

            Name one example of a Christian in America in 2014 committing a violent act in the name of Jesus Christ. You can’t do it can you. With all the powers of Google you can’t find one example.

            But I could search Google and give you 100 examples just this year of Muslims in America getting arrested for planning violence in the name of Islam. Here’s one just from THIS WEEK:

            http://www.barenakedislam.com/2014/06/05/new-york-yemeni-muslim-from-rochester-arrested-on-terrorism-charges-and-plot-to-kill-u-s-troops/

            The problem is you soooooo want to vilify Christianity and dismiss the violence in Islam. It doesn’t matter how contorted your argument gets the goal is always the same. It’s pathetic.

          • john

            Didn’t Jesus say that anyone who didn’t give up his family and follow him would rot in Hell? Pretty hostile message.

          • MooseWinkle2014

            You’re still going with the Jesus was as violent as Muhammad thing. Like I said: pathetic.

          • john

            I make no such comparison. My point is that even when claiming to come in peace, JC is quoted making some very hostile statements.
            Since the renaissance, Christianity has lost ground to rationality and has tempered its violent aspects while Islam is still in more medieval mind set.
            However, the angry undercurrent to most Western religions is stll there. Nobody has ever removed the anti-Semitic sentiments in the NT around JC’s execution.

          • MooseWinkle2014

            You haven’t read the Qu’ran have you? If you had you’d see the difference between 2 or 3 somewhat abstract references to violence in the New Testament vs the HUNDREDS of invokations to violence in the Qu’ran. Many liberal retards like yourself point to examples like Jesus’ arrest in the garden of Gethsemane he asked for 2 swords. But he did that not to fight the Roman soldiers but to guarantee he’d be arrested and then crucified and thus fulfill the ancient Jewish scriptures.
            All that is abstract and ambiguous. But in the Qu’ran it’s very explicit. There is no mistaking it. Muslims must kill infidels until they convert or pay the jizyah. Some variation of that theme appears over and over and over again.
            So your argument was absurd and still is absurd. At this point if you had any intellectual honesty you’d pick up the Qu’ran and start reading it. But you won’t because you live in an insular Politically Correct retard-verse where the Truth must never be talked about lest some culture is offended no matter how barbaric and satanic that culture is.

          • john

            You need to be a bit more open minded and factual in your abusive commentaries.

          • MooseWinkle2014

            “abusive commentaries.” Oh did I hurt your feelings “john”? Unfortunately for you I live in America where pointing out bull sh*t is better tolerated than dreary Old England.

          • john

            I also live in the US. There isn’t much credit to be gained by abusing people you don’t know on an anonymous comments thread. Ideas and facts are more worthwhile.

          • MooseWinkle2014

            Oh noes! You don’t have an excuse now for being misguided. I can’t help you anymore. You don’t get it and you probably never will.

          • vieuxceps2

            Well,Moosewinkle and John, if your exchange of views is typical of the level of debate in America then I’m glad I live in “dreary Old England “(cheeky b*gg*r btw).What a pair of plonkers!

          • MooseWinkle2014

            Yeah. We tend to keep it real over here. You should try it some time.

          • Peterg123

            No, I think with your rather slimy prevaricating and beyond dense comparisons of the root nature of certain religious practices, I hate to say you have earned a bit of abuse. Not that I mind you fighting your corner……………

          • roger

            Yes, man created god, not the other way round.
            Intelligent humanity must combat and defeat all ignorant cults, without forgetting the cultural achievements as well as past evils.

          • CBinTH

            JC: ” I come not to bring peace”
            Yet we refer to him as the “Prince of Peace”.
            I don’t think that Jesus’ (recorded) statements were aggressive in the sense of encouraging physical aggression, though.
            Especially when you consider that at the time his land was a powder-keg of religious fanaticism.

            He told his disciples not to resist when he was arrested, he told them to accept a blow to the face without striking back, he encouraged introspection and discouraged judging or ostracising others, and there’s even an apocryphal story about preventing a stoning from taking place.

            In addition, his early followers (always to be held up as an ideal) were pacifistic.

            So, when people quote the more aggressive statements of JC, they can be misleading us because of the overall context.

            I also think it’s a bit unfair to simply label anything positive about Christianity as solely due to outside influences, such as the renaissance. One could argue that the renaissance triggered an Age of Fanaticism amongst Christians, as the Church no longer had a monopoly on the interpretation of scripture, and as Christian groups sought justification to fight amongst themselves. In England, at least, the early latitudinarians were anything but Atheists (and atheists were often only non-denominational theists), and latitudinarians were substantially more liberal than either Puritans or the Spanish Inquisition. So, at the very least, the progress was, in this context, something that took place amongst a community of explicitly Christian thinkers.

          • john

            There is no reason to believe that any of JC’s quoted statements are valid. Who recorded them? They were written down by Followers a few decades after his (purported) death. None meet a reasonable standard of authenticity.
            However, surely you must treat his aggressive statements equally with his more peaceful ones.

          • CBinTH

            There is no reason to believe that any of JC’s quoted statements are valid.
            Well, that might be a little strong, but the lack of definitive evidence is why I put the word “recorded” in parenthesis.

            In any case, in this discussion, it is only the conventional record that we have to consider, since it is the religion built around that record which we are discussing. If we were believers, then we might discuss whether the scriptural Jesus is authentic, and if we did that a believer would happily come away feeling that there’s no reason why it shouldn’t be so. Believers are, after all, are taught to value faith over the balance of probability.

            Surely you must treat his more aggressive statements equally with his more peaceful ones“. Well, even allowing for the bias of received opinion (it has been conventional opinion for hundreds of years that the Jesus of the Gospels is an inspiring figure who’s not especially objectionable to anyone, except in the final implications of some of his views), I would say that, treated equally, the statements in support of peaceful behaviour and against intolerance, outnumber any statements that could be considered “violent” – and most of the “violent” statements are along the lines of “actually, what is generally considered acceptable or admirable is in fact sinful, – and so you too might be a sinner who’ll burn in hell”, so that they relate to judgements in the “next life”, and at worst to social ostracism, rather than to violence per se.

            And then, the (recorded) life of Jesus is indisputably without violence, so that those who aim to emulate him are likely to choose another path, rather than violence. Similarly, the early Church, which was always held to be the most “authentic” Church, is capable of being represented in many different ways, but one commonly accepted characteristic was that its followers eschewed violence. The early Church was famous for its faithful suffering at the hands of repression, but not for its violent activities. While a cynic might claim that this was merely because the Church was everywhere a minority and had little opportunity to inflict violence, this cynicism might be a little unfair and in a sense doesn’t matter anyway, since all that matters is how they behaved and rationalised it with their theology, not their reasons for adopting the theology.

            So, all in all, at the very least Christianity lends itself to a pacifistic interpretation, hence minority cults like the Quakers, and certainly it contains much that should make its mainstream, non-pacifistic, followers, pause in their war making. Despite the fact that most Christians believe in the “Just War” concept, Christianity has some claim to be “The/A Religion of Peace”.

            Islam, in contrast, has no such claim, although it could claim to be a “Religion of Just War”, or, more accurately, a religion where both the conduct of war and whether or not you can go to war is governed by various criteria, apocryphal stories, and scriptural commands – by shari’a, in other words.

          • john

            The Jesus Project years ago came to the conclusion that 90% of the comments accorded to JC were simply recycled OT quotes. Again, who actually recorded any of these statements and then wrote them down 50 years later? The whole strory of JC seems to be creation by Christian writers to give a human face to their gnostic beliefs for understandable PR reasons.

          • CBinTH

            JC: ” I come not to bring peace”
            Yet we refer to him as the “Prince of Peace”.
            I don’t think that Jesus’ (recorded) statements were aggressive in the sense of encouraging physical aggression, though.
            Especially when you consider that at the time his land was a powder-keg of religious fanaticism.

            He told his disciples not to resist when he was arrested, he told them to accept a blow to the face without striking back, he encouraged introspection and discouraged judging or ostracising others, and there’s even an apocryphal story about preventing a stoning from taking place.

            In addition, his early followers (always to be held up as an ideal) were pacifistic.

            So, when people quote the more aggressive statements of JC, they can be misleading us because of the overall context.

            I also think it’s a bit unfair to simply label anything positive about Christianity as solely due to outside influences, such as the renaissance. One could argue that the renaissance triggered an Age of Fanaticism amongst Christians, as the Church no longer had a monopoly on the interpretation of scripture, and as Christian groups sought justification to fight amongst themselves. In England, at least, the early latitudinarians were anything but Atheists (and atheists were often only non-denominational theists), and latitudinarians were substantially more liberal than either Puritans or the Spanish Inquisition. So, at the very least, the progress was, in this context, something that took place amongst a community of explicitly Christian thinkers.

          • Peterg123

            JC shines throughout the Gospels, whether true or not, as a man of peace but also with a very strong social conscience and greatly questioning of authority and power (see Pharisees etc). In absolutely no sense was he simultaneously a war leader, a fabricator of societal rules, a merchant and someone who married multiple wives, one as young as 9 years old. You really are a very confused person. JC’s gospel messages are entirely to do with internal spiritual struggle – he did not set up to create a cult of rules. What next from you? Bhudda and Mohammed, the Spiritual Twins?

          • john

            You’re buying the kiddies version.
            The Gospels were written by Christian proseletizers years after his purported death and then endlessly reedited. We know nothing about whether he existed or not. There is zero contemporaneous evidence. Virtually everything he supposedly said is simply OT themes rewritten.

          • Peterg123

            Be that as it may, itis irelevant to the body of Christian teaching which never had, at least until about 950AD after massive conquest by Muslims, and repeated invasions, any doctrines of jihad pr militarism. Neither is there in the gosspels any social and military commandments not detailed instructions on the same. If you cannot see the position of Mohammed and Islam in major wold religions, certainly monotheistic ones, as unique in this, then what can you?

          • BradMueller

            No.

          • john

            There are nummerous quotes from JC threatening non-believers. An example is “If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple”. -Luke 14:26

          • Kevin T

            Asking people who want to be your followers (disciples / priests) to make sacrifices is not condemning them to rot in hell if they don’t. I’m not a Christian but getting very fed up of the way some will twist it just so they can be criticising “religion” rather than Islam, which might sound a bit, ooh, racist!

          • Jackthesmilingblack

            Think you`ll find it`s “burn in Hell”. Amazing how many make this basic mistake. Should be obvious even to the meanest intelligence.

          • Kennybhoy

            Do you have any idea how your rants read to any sane mind? Do you have any notion of how damaging your rants are to the cause you claim to espouse? You are as big a fracking loon as the Islamists! Are you an Islamist in disguise, sent to discredit Islam’s opponents?

          • MooseWinkle2014

            What did I say that is wrong?

          • Damon

            “Christians will kill today if they find themselves threatened and in a position of power.”
            I’m an Anglican, and can’t say I have a particular wish to kill anyone. I also doubt whether the congregation in my local village church is especially murderous. Gardening, tea and old-fashioned charity work are arguably more their thing.
            Still, you probably know more about our religion than we do.

          • john

            No I’m sure you’re right that village Christianity in England is past its murderous days (17th century?). Now it’s more or less a social club. However, Christians do pick up weapons in the Balkans, Nigeria and the Mid East and other more turbulent spots.
            PS What about the current story from Ireland – 800 dead babies in one Catholic mothers home?

          • Damon

            With due respect, you’re making the classic error of conflating the actions of the Catholic church with Christianity. And even then, you cherry pick. If we’re going to mention dead babies, then it’s only fair to mention, say, the compassionate works of Mother Theresa. (Assuming, of course, that you believe she really existed.)
            I’m not being snotty. Lots of atheists are lovely, fluffy people, as I’d be the first to acknowledge. Regarding the teachings of Christ (or if you insist, Christian scripture) I think I know where they stand on the question of cruelty to children. Moreover, if you’re honest, so do you.

          • CBinTH

            Christians have killed because the logic of evangelical monotheism, with its exclusive route to salvation, is that theological belief has extremely high stakes. Added to which, of course, religion is yet another type of identity group to which those who belong experience instinctive ‘tribal’ feelings of loyalty and belonging, regardless of abstract theology.

            I feel it’s a bit harsh though to label Christianity a “death cult” in terms of actively encouraging the deaths of non-Christians. That’s not really normative Christianity, in so many senses, such as the scripture, the behaviour of the earliest Christians, and even the everyday behaviour of Christians historically over time. It might be a bit harsh to label Islam a “death cult”, too, so let us say for Christianity that it is both harsh and irrelevant, since the dominant forms of Christianity have not behaved in the way described for multiple centuries.

            The difference between the two is that Islam appears to have a more explicit tradition about fighting unbelievers, and this tradition is enshrined in a system of religious customs or “law” which is supposed to be followed by believers. Moreover, certain memes, such as the beheading of enemies, seems to have been carried on through many centuries. In contrast, Christianity teaches its followers about multiple (not always practically obtainable) ideals, many of which are contradictory, – with exhortations to various types of behaviour, rather than with divinely prescribed rituals, behaviour, and “Law”. So the latter is more easy to adapt to changing ideas of morality than the former.

            If we define a “death cult” as having an obsession with martyrdom, then I suppose both Islam and Christianity are indeed “death cults”, although only Islam focuses on warriors as the ideal “martyrs.”

          • Kennybhoy

            Fracking loon! You widnae be a Calvie Deil worshipper masquerading as a Christian by any chance…? :-)

          • MooseWinkle2014

            Calvinist? No. I’m not a Calvinist.

          • lookout

            Your confusing biblical christianity with pagan Babylonian Rome, no one reading the new testament would become a catholic, or any other man made religions follower. Jesus Christ came to destroy organised religion, the opposition put it back in place and then we get the dark ages and all the rest of the religious horrors

          • Akritas

            Agree with MooseWInkle2014 PLUS
            the fact that whatever people that called themselves “christians” did was in direct opposition with the word of Jesus.
            Jesus forbid not just acting but even thinking bad about the others

          • vieuxceps2

            None of which in any invalidates the criticism of Islam.You-too-ery and whataboutery are silly arguments.Two wrongs etc…..

          • john

            I never said it did. The problem is organized religion and its adherants view that they alone have access to the truth (usually supported by some old fashioned economic motive as well).

          • James Lovelace

            “You may not be aware that Christians have killed people who rejected the religion numerous times in history. Jews, Crusades, Mary Stuart, Elizabeth 1? Not to mention the thousands killed by Spanish conquistadores etc. ”

            So we are told that islam brought all sorts of things to the european christians (e.g. algebra, alcohol, etc.) But we are supposed to believe that islam did not bring evil things to these european christians: pogroms against jews, heresy trials, imperialism, slave trade, Holy War.

            Any study of the history of these things, shows that they were not a part of chritstianity, until AFTER large parts of previoulsy christian europe/north africa were invaded and violently subjugate by muslims.

            Those religions which did not adapt to embrace evils from islam (e.g. buddhism in India) were wiped out by islam. Those religions which adapted to the threat and responded in kind (christianity, hinduism) survived and halted the religiously-commanded violent domination by muslims.

      • roger

        The christ cult, like the mithras, dionysus cults : opposed by philosophical emperors (pontifex maxima) like Marcus.

  • WalterBannon

    Islam should be internationally declared illegal, and its adherents forced to renounce it or die.

  • Kitty MLB

    Islam is about world domination and a creed of fear.
    Never tolerance and kindness.
    Some parts of the world just have not progessed from
    the dark ages, stoning is a example of this.And as for public
    executions, i have no idea what to say.
    To have no humanty, to care so little about human life.
    To be so barbaric and then for some to try and force their
    religion on Christian countries in the west. We must be on our
    guard. And not pander to such people.

  • Mr Grumpy

    “When Islam burns churches in Alexandria, Baghdad, or Pakistan, it is because it fears them.”

    Just about everything in that sentence is wrong. To begin with, in fairness it should be said that “Islam” is pretty sweeping here. It may be an effort to qualify that sort of statement but it’s one we need to keep on making however much it annoys the average Speccie below-the-liner.

    But what about the fear thing? When did the churches start burning in Iraq? 2003. Before that the fanatics were too much afraid of Saddam.

    Same procedure when Mubarak and Assad (partially) lost their grip. Israel, on the other hand, retains a fearsome state and its Christians are secure. Pakistani Christians are, of course, utterly defenceless.

    It’s an unpalatably un-Christian moral to draw, but fear has consistently been the Middle Eastern Christian’s best friend.

  • mandelson

    This is why Hague and Obama are constantly denouncing Saudi Arabia and Pakistan for their barbarism. Sorry I meant Russia, got confused.

  • IainRMuir

    Good article but, at the risk of sounding churlish, we’re already aware of most of it.

    The problem is that our “leaders”, and the MSM, act as if they are not. This must be rectified.

    • CBinTH

      Did you notice how, instead of saying that “Islam spread by the sword”, which would trigger immediate denials and refutations on the grounds of few conversions being literally forced upon adherents, the author asserted that “Islam spread its rule by the sword”, a formulation more precise and which is undeniably true?

      If nothing else, I think that is a memorable contribution.

      As is the rather beautiful reference to St Paul and to Stephen.

      I also had no idea that stonings were that common in the Muslim world.

      I think the only weakness in the article is the author choosing to depict Islam as a cohesive, thinking, entity (ie where he says that it “fears” the things it attacks), which is of course not quite true and which a liberal (or Islamist) critic could use to label the author as having an irrational response to “Islam” as a whole, or could use to argue that the author is labelling “all Muslims” in the same way, despite the context. “Islam” is really just what is in the heads of it’s widely varying believers, some of whom are much more liberal than others. Hence “Islam” is extremely variable. So we should be wary of simply attacking the religion, which will only further the cause of the Islamists by encouraging alienation, paranoia, and defensiveness amongst Muslim readers, and by making the most extreme variations appear to be the accepted as the most authentic.

      But the article is beautifully written and very sad.

  • roger

    Apart from the ritual reference to the old, supposedly tolerant, Caliphate this is a clear exposition why Islam ( the cult of submission) is like nazism, an anti-humanitarian evil that the world should combat. We must fight its cruel ignorant theory and its practice. We will have to confront and defeat this enemy of reason and humanity for humankind to grow up. The fight might get ugly and bloody but it must be fought, and soon.

    • jack

      Just like the Nazis 1.5 billion are blindly following orders…..

  • Vuil

    I think Britain should address this problem by letting in a few more million Arabs and Pakistani so that the Tower Hamlets style can be extended to other areas beyond.

    A stoning at Speaker’s Corner in the future – why not I say, we are all the same under the skin.

    • My_old_mans_a_dustman

      It is a brotherhood of man after all. Let them all in, let everybody in. We are all the same under the skin and that’s all that matters, right?

      • Jackthesmilingblack

        “My old man`s a Provo
        With a beret and a gun
        I haven`t seen him lately
        He`s always on the run.”

        • vieuxceps2

          Poor old Jack-san,always ready with an irrelevant quip. Bored are you? Why nor carve another alpenstock?

          • Jackthesmilingblack

            An unstable degenerate who when upset will come out with the most irrelevant, illogical nonsense. “Jock McNutter`s evil twin brother.” See how it sounds when I turn it around.

        • George Smiley

          Are you British, are you Irish, or are you a Japanese? Make your mind up, you Troll!

          • Jackthesmilingblack

            I`ve asserted I`m British almost as many times as you`ve told anyone that would listen that I`m Japanese (so at least 100 times), you deranged, lying git. What is it about Rochdale, wall-to-wall perverts and sexual deviants? You`re the one that needs to make up his/her tiny mind by grasping the obvious, because I`m not confused.
            Jack, the Japan Alps Brit

          • George Smiley

            Then why are you quoting IRISH Provo song lyrics then, you plonker?! And where did you learn your English, because I don’t think that I remember the apostrophe is supposed to look like that in English!

            Clearly off his meds, this silly, mad, mad eejit! Bless him!

          • Jackthesmilingblack

            “I am after all an unemployed linguist”
            Note the irony. Unemployed and unemployable.

          • George Smiley

            Are you possibly talking about yourself perchance, who is always ready to insult the other people in the face of the slightest of criticisms? I mean, who would possibly employ YOU?!

  • Ron Todd

    The Bible and the Koran both have bits in them that if followed explicitly would result in people doing something pretty nasty. The difference is in he culture. In the West we have put decent moral behavior ahead of the words in an old book of myth; much of the rest of the world has not. Women can be lashed or murdered for not being the ‘right’ religion or for falling in love, and those of another religion can be denied equality. Girls can be kidnapped into slavery. Islam has two cities that all non Muslims are denied access to . If anybody object our politicians accuse them of being intolerant; invite more people from those cultures to come here encourages them to have their own community and community leaders while blaming us for any tensions because we are not sufficiently multicultural and too judgmental on those that have judged us as kaffir and dhimmi

  • My_old_mans_a_dustman

    Given the demographics of the situation, I would say that Islam has little to worry about.

    • https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aW5pPXGrdTY Puss in Plimsolls

      It has to worry about freedom, since free people have the most to lose of any people and will fight harder than others so as not to lose it. So found Hitler, so found Stalin and his epigones. ‘Give me liberty or give me death’ — Patrick Henry, foundational American.

    • https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aW5pPXGrdTY Puss in Plimsolls

      It has to worry about freedom, since free people have the most to lose of any people and will fight harder than others so as not to lose it. So found Hitler, so found Stalin and his epigones. ‘Give me liberty or give me death’ — Patrick Henry, foundational American.

  • Liz

    Controlling who women have sex with is what religion is for. And it’s certainly not an impulse that has faded in the West: from sexual violence, to victim-blaming (ie. Making potential victims responsible for avoiding the actions of potential perpetrators), to slut-shaming, to tabloid prurience, to the sex trade.

    • https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aW5pPXGrdTY Puss in Plimsolls

      No, it is NOT what religion is for. You merely dilute the blame when you try to spread it around (across centuries, which have nothing to do with now, in the West’s case). Islam is misogynist and misanthropist and just plain stupidly anti-life in a way that no other religion I know of is.

      • Alexsandr

        I think you will find our monogamy and work ethic came from the protestant church at the start of the industrial revolution as a way of conditioning the people to become the factory workforce. Bastards and the idle could have made the workforce less compliant. And a charge upon the rate payers for the workhouse system. In the agrarian society this was less important as the smaller communities were more like an extended family.

  • Liz

    Controlling who women have sex with is what religion is for. And it’s certainly not an impulse that has faded in the West: from sexual violence, to victim-blaming (ie. Making potential victims responsible for avoiding the actions of potential perpetrators), to slut-shaming, to tabloid prurience, to the sex trade.

  • Suresh Dogra

    Isn’t the West responsible for not only tolerating but propping up Islamic regimes that perpetrate such heinous crimes on their subjects? Saudi Arabia, where the incident of stoning is reported from, is a close ally of the USA. Why doesn’t liberal, democratic US tell the Arabs to behave or they will be shunned like a plague? How much financial aid is given to Pakistan by the U.S.? Why aren’t immigrants who enter America and other Western countries examined on their beliefs? Why shouldn’t those who wish to settle in Western countries not be told in no uncertain terms that they should leave behind them the baggage of medieval beliefs and practices before being declared eligible to become citizens of modern countries? Isn’t multi-culturism used as an umbrella term and palliative for some of the most inhuman practices? Who will answer these questions?

    • j011254

      Why don’t you place the blame where it belongs? on the adherents of Islam. It is not the West’s fault, job or responsibility to fix Islam. It is the people who practice this barbaric religion who must fix it.

    • Blindsideflanker

      In the 1700’s Muhammed bin Abdul Wahab ( the founder of Wahabism) lent his religious warriors to Muhammed bin Saud, then emir of the town Darriya, who used them to conquer Saudi Arabia. Nothing to do with the West what so ever.

      In the 1920s the Ikhawn rebellion in Saudi Arabia, which was a rebellion against introduction of tools of the devil like the telephone and car was put down the Saudi regime.

      Islamic extremism has been part of Saudi history right from the start, and nothing to do with us.

    • Stumpy

      How about just plain no. You cannot come here. Your people have shown us overwhelmingly who they are. Fix your own country.

  • evad666

    Time more people read the book Gods Terrorists.

    • CBinTH

      Great book!

      Also, “Soldier Sahibs”.

  • j011254

    Islam, a barbarian religion which surpasses even paganism in its cruelty.

    • montana83

      And they are coming for you unless you arm yourselves and fight back. You won’t

      • pedestrianblogger

        We will. What about you?

  • https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aW5pPXGrdTY Puss in Plimsolls

    It’s a barbaric religion and the civilized peoples must treat it as such. They have no virtue whatsoever, and ought to be ashamed to the depths of their souls.

    • pedestrianblogger

      The “religion” of Islam gets its power and popularity by giving divine sanction to the lowest of human impulses. Whatever is basest and most contemptible in what mankind is capable of, Islam approves of it and, not only approves, but commands. It is the product of a diseased mind and appeals to those with diseased minds.

      • https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aW5pPXGrdTY Puss in Plimsolls

        I can see why you put “religion” in quotation marks — because it’s a religion that is also an ideology, one that is just as severe as it is irrational.

    • Jackthesmilingblack

      Think you’ll find it’s burn in Hell.

  • cromwell

    Let the ignorant savages do what they like in their own benighted countries but why for the love of God allow them into our civilised countries?

    • john

      Dear Ollie:

      You have a short memory. Didn’t our own dear Tony and his cronies – Bush, Rummy and the like – recently invent a phony justification for attacking Iraq? Several hundred thousand dead, billions wasted, nothing achieved. Makes the brutal Muslim stoners look like small fry.

      • Kevin T

        And that was wrong too but his point stands.

      • Terry Field

        A stupid comparison. A category error.
        You should try logic.
        Fool

        • john

          Relax Terry, you obviously have a somewhat blinkered perspective. I guess you don’t feel that the brutal death of anything up to 500,000 Iraqis qualifies as much of a crime as the brutal stoning a small number of Muslims?

          • Terry Field

            No, I consider Blair a criminal. I consider Brown to be a criminal.
            But the monstrous slaughter in Iraq does not in an way negate the immense danger to Britain of immigration-generated Islam. Something actively supported and encouraged by Labour.
            That horror is far and away the greatest problem Britain faces.
            Despite anything done criminally in the Middle East. I include in that the monstrous interference in Syria and the fomentation of armed violence by the supporters of ‘opposition’, as if it has a position of moral superiority.

          • john

            “immense danger to Britain of immigration-generated Islam”. Nutty!
            You obviously have the anti-immigrant hang up many other DT contributors have. I don’t share your hostility.

          • William_Brown

            I’m glad that you don’t share Terry’s hostility. I will look forward to seeing you being so sanguine in the future.

  • cromwell

    Abraham has a lot to answer for.

  • One Thirsty Bear

    Here we find all the arguments for decisively defeating liberal teachers and professors: http://www.amazon.com/dp/B0094KY878

  • Terry Field

    Which bastard said ‘Jehovah’????????

  • smileruk

    Religion eh, even here its just back and forth who is best, how cares, your born, you die, you do not go to hell or heaven. You do not go to sit with many virgins, you do not go to pearly gates. You do not rot in fire, you do not burn in hell. Read between the lines, If you do not practice your religion, then YOU WILL GOTO HELL ETC ETC ETC. How on earth would you want me to expect to believe that in this day and age. In the year 00 – up to the modern age, when they believed in magic, dragons, myths, the whole nightmare. Who wouldn’t want to believe in their religion. You are daft as you are stupid.
    We live in the 21st century, we do not need barbaric practices, from anyone. Move with the times, believe in who and what you want, but do not push it or force it on others, If I want to believe in a certain religion, then that is my choice, not yours or anyone else’s. Holding a grudge for something which happened 100’s of years ago, just shows the mentality of small children. Grow up! Bully tactics are for the play ground.

    You all believe in a god, whoop, the same god. So why on earth are you fighting and arguing the point? If you believe in that, then just because you belief says it one way and another belief says it another. Does it really matter? No not really.

    Your alive, your living your life, enjoy it, why spend your lives full of hate for people you never even met?

    For me, I do not care what or who you believe in, I do not believe in anything. And it will stay that way. I do not force that on anyone. You have your opinion and I have mine.

    End of..
    Enjoy your afternoon.

    • William_Brown

      Yes. I do wish that these ‘religion’ people would go and live somewhere else and leave the rest of us alone to get on with our lives, without being brow-beaten, frowned upon, judged, beheaded, or stoned to death.

  • Fenman

    Having lived in the mE for 20yrs my conclusion was to-day the mainstream whether Sunni or Shia is unreformed and dominated by values that are in direct conflict with those of Westerm civilisation and whose actions ar eoften illegal under our laws. The only people who will not face this ar eour politically coorrect metro liberal establishment, as representd by Cameron Clegg and Miliband. Until the establishment drop their denail and fight back Britain will have more and more serious problems.

  • Thomtids

    It isn’t the approbation of the Hard Left that makes Mohammedanism so dangerous to our British way of life, values, educative process, respect for The Law, nor the “tolerance” shown by Anglicanism.
    The most corrosive is the connivance of The Establishment who have decided that as the indigenous white population have doomed themselves to their ultimate numerical disappearance through an unwillingness to breed in sufficient numbers, the successor race is the most fecund and who blessed with an indulgence that is breathtaking in its preferment of the new Race, it’s Religion – some say “cult” – and it’s antithetical relationship with the indigenous population. How could one otherwise view the Pakistani gang groom/rape/pimp of white girls which was deliberately ignored for 20 years by both Central and Local Governments? Or the deliberate accommodation of Mohammedan practices that are so far removed from British values as to be Alien for years, similarly. The tolerance of behaviour such as Sharia “Courts” in places such as Bradford and, no doubt other areas of heavy colonisation.
    What is and has been going on? This isn’t multiculturalism it is outright supplanting of a native culture by an alien culture.
    And I consider myself well educated, tolerant up to a point that was passed a long time ago. This isn’t Racism….it is a bloody simple question that it is time the people of this Country should demand that The Establishment answer for. NOW!

  • Mahmud

    Bunch of nonsense-among disbelievers, you are a dim one:

    “The phenomenon of Islam, meaning submission, deriving from Bedouin-adapted half-heard Hebrew stories”

    I can pull stuff out of my rectum too.

  • Kasperlos

    The West better pull its collective nose out of distant lands and look inward to the advancing agenda of Islamism within. It probably is too late. Soldier of the Queen Lee Rigby’s horrific murder in broad daylight London will perhaps years from now mark the starting point of the fall of western European civilisation – yes, specifically western European – at the hands of the radical Muslim world. However, the fault and blame, if historicans get it accurate, will not be ascribed to Islam, but at the sleeping and apathetic inhabitants of the West who invited the barbarians in the gate. It is stunning just how swift the changes to the West have come about without hardly a whimper of protest to the deconstruction occurring. The political elites and leftist academia thank you for your cooperation.

    • Alexsandr

      the butchering of Lee Rigby was, I think, the turning point from acceptance to realisation that Islam is a problem.

  • Braven Eworld

    With life becoming more and more specialized, avoiding stress and discontent depends more and more upon identifying and engaging in the types of efforts most suited to our skills and personalities.

  • Raymond Karlsen

    I agree with you! Waging war against it will definitely not work.

  • Jackthesmilingblack

    Test

  • Jackthesmilingblack

    If you’re a proud grammar snob, the leftwing Guardian’s Mona Chalabi wants you to know that you’re simply a wealthy, white racist trying to silence minority voices like hers in order to maintain your wealthy, white, racist power imbalance.

    In the short video, Chalabi attempts to suggest that grammar rules don’t even exist in the real world, only in the condescending minds of wealthy, white racists.

    i’m a racist!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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