Features

Do Israel's critics think there are not enough dead Jews?

The anti-Semitic West almost seems to want Israelis to suffer

19 July 2014

9:00 AM

19 July 2014

9:00 AM

 

 Jerusalem

It’s the moral equivalence which is so devastating. When Egypt this week proposed its ceasefire in Gaza, a BBC presenter asked whether both sides would now conclude that there was no point carrying on with the war. From the start, restraint has been urged on both sides — as if more than 1,100 rocket attacks on Israel in three weeks had the same weight as trying to stop this onslaught once and for all.

Israel has been bombing Gaza solely to stop Hamas and its associates from trying to kill Israeli citizens. But for many in the West, the driving necessity is not to stop Hamas but to stop Israel.

Moral equivalence morphs instantly into moral bankruptcy. People have looked at the casualty count — around 200 Palestinians killed at the time of writing, while only a handful of Israelis have been injured or killed — and decided that this proves Israel is a monstrous aggressor.

No concern at all for the Israelis who have only a few seconds to rush to a shelter when the sirens start to wail, car drivers flinging themselves to the ground at the side of the road. No concern for the elderly or dis-abled Israelis who can’t get to a shelter, the hospital patients left helpless while the rockets slam into the ground nearby.

ISRAEL-PALESTINIAN-GAZA-CONFLICT
Israeli soldiers await deployment Photo: AFP/Getty

Just imagine if the Scots, for example, had for years been firing at England volleys of rockets that were now putting 40-50 million people within range. Unimaginable? Of course it is. No country would tolerate it. But that’s the equivalent situation in which tiny Israel has found itself. Yet it is simultaneously having to fight another war: against a West determined to demonise it with accusations of deliberate atrocities, lack of restraint or an attempt to conquer more land.

To these people, whatever Israel does to defend itself is bad. Killing Gazans is bad, warning them to flee so they won’t be killed is bad, the Iron Dome missile defence system is bad because, while Palestinians are being killed, Israelis are not. Ah yes, that’s the real outrage, isn’t it? Not enough dead Jews. How dare they defend themselves so effectively!

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And so the West does Hamas’s dirty work for it. Hamas cannot defeat Israel militarily. Its strategy is not just to kill Israelis and demoralise the population, but also to de-legitimise Israel so that the West, too, will work for its destruction. Hamas’s rockets have failed in the first two objectives — but the third is a runaway success.

ISRAEL-PALESTINIAN-GAZA-CONFLICT
Damage to a house in the southern Israeli city of Ashdod after a rocket was fired from the Gaza Strip Photo: AFP/Getty

In its hundreds of tunnels, Hamas has built an underground infrastructure of industrialised terror the length of Gaza. As a Fatah spokesman blurted out, it has situated its arsenal among civilians, underneath schools and hospitals and mosques, for the infernal purpose of using its population as human shields and human sacrifices.

It has urged Gazans to make themselves the target of Israeli air strikes. It has ordered them to ignore the Israeli warnings to evacuate, which are delivered by leaflet, phone, text and warning shots.

Doesn’t the Israel-atrocity brigade ever pause to wonder why Hamas has provided no air-raid shelters for its people, while Israel has constructed a national shelter system? Gazan civilians are dying in order to maximise their numbers killed in the war, so that Hamas can incite against Israel in both the Muslim world and the West.

And it openly games the PR system. Hamas social media guidelines instruct Gazans not to post pictures of missiles launched from ‘residential areas’ and always to add the term ‘innocent citizen’ to any casualty’s name. So the figures it issues for civilian as opposed to terrorist casualties, re-circulated by the UN, are worthless.

Israel is waging this war in accordance with international law, which states that when houses are used for military purposes they may become legitimate military targets. But as Ibrahim Kreisheh, the Palestinian delegate to the UN Human Rights Council, admitted in a remarkable TV interview, while Israel’s killing of civilians is considered in law merely a mistake, Hamas is committing war crimes by deliberately targeting Israeli civilians. Indeed, given its use of Gazan human shields, it is guilty of war crimes twice over.

All civilian casualties, however, are deeply to be regretted and to be avoided wherever possible. And so Gaza presents Israel with a hideous dilemma. Either it inescapably kills a lot of civilians as a by-product of destroying the infrastructure of mass murder, or it leaves that infrastructure at least partly in place to spare the civilians. Until now, it has chosen the latter.

Tensions Remain High At Israeli Gaza Border
Tensions remain high at the Israeli Gaza border Photo: Getty

It is also allowing food and fuel into Gaza; its offer of blood supplies was turned down by the Palestinian Authority. When a Hamas rocket downed a power line supplying electricity to 70,000 Gazans, workers from the Israel Electric Company braved Hamas rocket fire to restore power to Gaza — en-abling it to fire more rockets at Israel.

Yet it is Israel which is said to be ‘out of control’, guilty of indiscriminate slaughter and even — as ludicrous as it is obscene — ‘genocide’.

Those who demonise Israel in this way should realise just what they are supporting. Palestinian society, both through Hamas and Mahmoud Abbas’s Fatah (whose military wing has also been firing rockets from Gaza), brainwashes its children that glory lies in killing Jews. It routinely pumps out Judeophobic incitement straight from the Nazi playbook.

A few days ago, Yahya Rabah, a member of the Fatah Leadership Committee in Gaza, recycled the medieval blood libel when he wrote in Al-Hayat al-Jadida that the Jews offer sacrifices during Passover ‘made from the blood of our children’.

Every western supporter of the Palestinian war against Israel is also tacitly supporting such anti-Jewish derangement. This psychotic bigotry is the true driver of that war, as well as the Islamist war against the West. Yet astoundingly it is never, ever mentioned. The intractable problem of Gaza has been exacerbated by the meddling incomprehension of a western world that just doesn’t grasp how Islamist fanatics play by entirely different rules.

The West insists on moral equivalence between Israel and the Palestinians, as if the century-old conflict between the Arabs and the Jews were simply a squabble over the equitable division of land. It is not. It is a war to destroy the Jewish national homeland by people driven into frenzy by forces immune to reason.

Israeli parents are now steeling themselves for the nightmare of their sons in the Israel Defence Force being deployed in a Gazan land war to stop the rockets. Some of those boys will be killed. But it will be the Palestinian casualties, the Hamas war crime, which will be used once again to blame the Jews for their own destruction.

Melanie Phillips is a columnist for the Times.

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Show comments
  • gerronwithit

    Perfect articulation of the hypocritical moral stance taken by the West. As Melanie has said, unless and until the Israeli body count exceeds the Palestinians, the willing and derision will continue. For the life of me I do not understand how Hamas can be given the slightest credence or backing from the West while it hijacks Gaza and its population for its own evil purposes.

    • will91

      Here we have a war between a democratic nation state (which is our ally) and a terror group. Yet the BBC, so marinaded in relativism, can see absolutely no way of discerning between these two parties other than by way of who is racking up the higher body count. For them the war is a 50/50 thing, where to take a side would be to make an unfair value judgement.

      • gerronwithit

        “Marinaded in relativism”, I like that. As far as the BBC is concerned, I can’t see the slightest inclination of impartiality from the screaming terrorist lover, Jeremy Bowen.

        • Mike

          I think that means brain washed into the oblivion into nothing is wrong with Islam or its extremists and we’re going to say whatever we want as everyone else is wrong, bigotted, a racist or won’t toe the party line of leftist ideology !

        • rtj1211

          I’m not quite sure what you are marinaded in but Jeremy Bowen’s job at the BBC requires impartiality and if you don’t like that, watch something else.

          • ChavahG

            Are you serious? So you really think that is impartial reporting? Where did you come from?

            Impartiality can chose any number of things to count, compare, report. They are not relegated to body counting and that number equals impartiality. In this case, body counting is a way of showing partiality.

          • tolpuddle1

            The opposition of you and people like you to BBC reporting on the Middle East, is the finest praise that the BBC can be given.

            Presumably you want a rightist dictatorship with only Fox News on air.

          • ChavahG

            Actually, believe it or not, I have never in my life watched TV, and I have only seen about 5 movies. I have never even seen or heard Fox news, and you are right, I don’t want to. I am just commenting on what I see here in writing. It is really easy for me to recognize bias, because I am not steeped. Part of what I do is teach how to recognize nuance.

          • Terry Field

            We want, old cocker, reporting of information free of the thought-management crap the Home Office, the Foreign Office and the BBC, acting together, pump out
            Fox is crap; the BBC used to be a great entity, but it has sold itself to the left and the anti-semites. Tragic; dreadful

          • tolpuddle1

            To accuse the Government or the Civil Service of being pro-Palestinian, is dishonest or ignorant.

            As I’m sure you’re well aware, the Israel lobby – Friends of Israel, for example – is a highly effective lobby, with extensive contacts in Government and Parliament (not to mention the City and the commercial world generally).

            Anti-Israel bias does sometimes genuinely exist among the commentariat, though in most cases it’s a response to the brutal policies pursued by Israeli governments 90% of the time since the 1967 war, not the anti-semitic bugbear it’s accused of being.

            More often, however, the accusation of anti-Israel bias is a smokescreen dreamt up by Israel’s more fanatical supporters, sometimes in a vain attempt at self-exculpation, sometimes in a cynical attempt at whipping Western media into line.

          • Martin Newman

            Hamas has publically declared ‘death to ALL Jews’ wherever they are. Israel gave back Gaza and got the shit bombed out of it for its efforts. Suggest you Google Colonel Richard Kemp for an unbiased analysis.

          • tolpuddle1

            Israel gave back Gaza not from goodwill, not from kindly concern (something many Israelis are wholly incapable of, outside their own community) for the Palestinians, but from political calculation and for its own ends; as a possible sop (like the “homelands” in Apartheid South Africa).

            Therefore for Israel or yourself to reproach the Palestinians for their supposed “ingratitude” (!) is beyond absurd.

            Though not quite so infinitely absurd as recommending Colonel Richard Kemp as unbiased.

          • Rabbi Burns

            Especially when the majority of the bodies on the Arab side are those of terrorists – legitimate targets.

            Nor does he make mention – other than in one absent-minded tweet – about the percentage of terrorist rockets that land back INSIDE Gaza causing who knows how many of those genuine civilian deaths.

          • Damaris Tighe

            During the last bout with Hamas Israel was accused of killing a BBC reporter’s child. Subsequent investigation found that the child was killed by one of Hamas’s own rockets. But of course by then the news cycle had moved on …

          • thomasaikenhead

            Was the first Israeli military casualty of the current ground assault, Eitan Barak, killed not by Hamas but rather by a tank shell fired by the IDF?

            How often will that fact be mentioned in the news cycle?

            You are correct Damaris, truth is the first casualty in any war., and the death of the Arab Palestinian child and the Jewish Israeli soldiers are both equally tragic.

          • Damaris Tighe

            Sergeant Eitan Barak’s death was reported accurately by Israel. Nobody lied about the cause or made political capital out of it.

          • alexa44

            There were 100 rockets who fell short. I wonder how many Gazans were killed by them.

          • thomasaikenhead

            Far, far fewer than those murdered or wounded by the IDF!!

          • alexa44

            YOu mean those who were shielding Hamas? They could have allways agreed to a cease fire.

          • thomasaikenhead

            Alexa44,

            The innocent Palestinians do not decide whether to ‘shield’ Hamas, they have no control over where Hamas places tunnels or its rocket launchers or its offices.

            The ordinary Palestinians have no leverage so cannot force Hamas to accept a ceasefire whatever the terms.

            As it was, Hamas would never accept a ceasefire created by Israel & Egypt that did not include Israel in the negotiations.

            Hamas will accept a ceasefire when it choses and on its own terms. At the moment that is uniquely as Hamas is controlling the conflict and Israel merely responding.

            This is hardly a secret, the Israeli press is full of articles discussing the total absence of stragey from the Netanyahu administration.

            It lurches from crisis to crisis like a drunken sailor with nary a clue about what to do.

          • alexa44

            I am not sure what Israel press you are reading but most israeli find that he handle this crisis very well. There is a purpose for this operation . Remove the danger of tunnels which became a huge danger to Israel and than remove the danger of rockets as best as you can. tunnels are proiority.
            The innocetns Israeli don;t have to suffer becuase Hamas hide behind its civialians.
            I wonder what is your solutuion. Do nothing?

          • Paul Reilly

            Probably none, seeing as the rockets are so crap that they apparently can’t knock down a wall, judging by the picture in the article.

          • thomasaikenhead

            Rabbi Burns,

            There is no credible evidence that the ‘majority of the bodies on the Arab side are those of terrorists’, in fact quite the opposite, the vast majority are, in fact, innocent civilians.

          • Rabbi Burns

            Unlike in previous campaigns, the Arabs are taking care not to lionise the terrorist martyrs on websites and forums, etc., however in a few months they won’t be able to help themselves and my statement will be proved correct – and it will be in line with the previous two Gaza campaigns.

            Even as things stand however, what the data shows is that a) the vast majority of casualties are male and b) the vast majority of those male casualties are in the age group 18-35.

            The Arabs are extremely sensitive to the needs of public opinion in the West – which are generally opposite to those of public opinion in the Arab world (which demands Arab heroes and dead Jews) – and have therefore produce social media guidelines to the effect I have described above. You can read about them here: http://elderofziyon.blogspot.co.uk/2014/07/hamas-instructs-gazans-on-propaganda.html

          • alexa44

            there is no credible evidence that the majoirty of the bodies on the arab side are those of civilians

          • ivanpope

            Yeah, even the tiny children are really Hamas terrorists.

          • alexa44

            No they are not. Pity Hamas people think shooting rockets where children are playing or hiding rockets in schools and hospital will not cause this children to get hurt. Or else I have to come to the conclusion that they are doing it on purpse.
            Still there are no crediblele evnidence that majority of the bodies are that of civilinas.
            “The Information Department of the Ministry of the Interior and National Security has instructed activists on social media websites, particularly Facebook, to correct some of the commonly used terms as they cover the aggression taking place in the Gaza Strip.

            Anyone killed or martyred is to be called a civilian from Gaza or Palestine, before we talk about his status in jihad or his military rank. Don’t forget to always add ‘innocent civilian’ or ‘innocent citizen’ in your description of those killed in Israeli attacks on Gaza.”

          • thomasaikenhead

            alex44,

            You are completely missing the point!

            It is up to Israel to prove that those it murdered and wounded are terrorists, not for the victims to prove themselves!

            That is why there are so many protests against Israeli tactics all over the globe.

            It is also why the numbers willing to demonstrate on behalf of Israel are so diminished!!

          • alexa44

            Considering the large number of muslim in Europe it is no wonder. Just showing what Europe is heading for.
            i got the point quiet well . We will prove it just like we did in cast lead,. Israel said there were at least 700 hamas dead millitant Gazan said there were 1400 civilians. It took Hamas a year to admit that they are liars .

            The Information Department of the Ministry of the Interior and National Security has instructed activists on social media websites, particularly Facebook, to correct some of the commonly used terms as they cover the aggression taking place in the Gaza Strip
            “Anyone killed or martyred is to be called a civilian from Gaza or Palestine, before we talk about his status in jihad or his military rank. Don’t forget to always add ‘innocent civilian’ or ‘innocent citizen’ in your description of those killed in Israeli attacks on Gaza.”

          • thomasaikenhead

            Don’t worry about Europe, as the richest, most successful and peaceful continent in the world, Europe is doing just fine!

            Operation Cast Lead was a total failure, Gilad Shalit was not freed, Hamas was not defeated, the rockets were not stopped, the IDF was humiliated and the image of Israel was badly damaged.

            As for propaganda, Israel and Hamas are the same, truth is always the first casualty in any conflict!

          • alexa44

            Richest most successful and peaceful continent in the world. hahaha a good joke.
            Greece? Spain? etc etc. lol
            What ever you think about Cast Lead the point is that it proved Hamas were lying about the number of dead civilians just like they are doing now,

          • rockylives

            Impartiality does not mean assuming that all forces in a conflict must have equal merits.

            By your standards, you would presumably have expected the BBC to treat Nazism and its opponents as two contesting but equally valid parties in the Second World War.

            Moral equivalence (and the fear of making judgements about what is right and wrong from the perspective of an enlightened democracy where the rule of law is respected) are one of the banes of our time and future historians will surely point to them as one of the root causes of the decline of Western civilisation.

          • Damaris Tighe

            The analogy with WW2 & nazism shows how truly insane some commentators are. It also applies to the ‘proportionality’ argument which would make sympathy for the nazis obligatory because by 1945 their armed forces were to weak to protect Germany.

          • tolpuddle1

            You are working from the ludicrous assumption that Netanyahu and the Israeli hard-liners are better people, with kinder policies, than their Arab opponents.

            As it’s the continued and continuing land grab by the Israelis that’s fuelling the whole woeful conflict, a case could even be made for the reverse.

          • global city

            Land grabbing is ‘better’ than the aim to destroy a people.

            Check the Hamas charter before replying, if you bother to do so.

          • tolpuddle1

            The two are the same, by different means.

          • Aravis Tarkheena

            Theft. You mean like every single other country in the world?

            When are you going to start demanding that the US give California and Texas back to Mexico, and the rest of the country back to the American Indians?

          • tolpuddle1

            Moses gave the Jewish people their mission statement – “You are to be a holy priesthood among the nations.”

            So it’s not “just like everyone else behaving badly” – the Holy Land is, BTW, supposed to be holy.

            And unless people in the Middle East start becoming holy PDQ, both the region and the world are likely to go up in flames.

          • Damaris Tighe

            Love your name. From my favourite in the Narnia Chronicles.

          • Amon Duul 3

            Hamas are not at the negotiating table.

          • Damaris Tighe

            The rockets are coming from Gaza. The Israelis left Gaza NINE YEARS ago.

          • tolpuddle1

            Yes, but the Israelis haven’t left any of the (much more worthwhile) territories, seized by Israel in 1967, which are the bone of contention.

          • Damaris Tighe

            That’s not what Hamas says. It wants to see all Jews removed from this part of the middle east, & for Jews to be killed wherever they can find them (paraphrasing the Koran).

          • tolpuddle1

            Your “reply” to my post, conflates the Hamas Charter with the territorial problem, perhaps in an attempt at dodging the land issue.

            The Islamic world – including the Palestinians – has become more extreme in recent decades, hence Hamas.

            There are many reasons for this – fear of an encroaching western culture (Western buildings, pop songs, TV) for example – but the principal and underlying cause of Islamism isn’t unreasoning hatred or the Koran; it is an (immoderate) Moslem rage against the injustice done to the Palestinians by the Israeli settlement of land once occupied by Palestinian Arabs.

            Until this matter is properly dealt with by a peace deal genuinely acceptable to both sides, Islamism will increase – both in scope and in rage – in the Middle East and globally.

          • Weaver

            Really? Seriously? The arab-israeli conflict as the root of modern Islamism and regional strife?

            If Israel and all its works fell into the sea tomorrow, do you think Islamism would abate? More specifically, could I ask what you think the following conflicts have to do with Israel and the Palestinians?

            Syrian civil war.

            Iraq-ISIS civil conflict

            Kurdish-ISIS conflict
            Kurdish-Turkish conflict

            Bahraini unrest
            Saudi-Iran arms race
            South Yemen insurgency

            South Sudan conflict
            Egyptian civil conflict
            Libyan civil conflict
            Algerian civil conflict
            Nigerian civil conflict
            Afghanistan (various conflicts)
            Kashmir conflict
            Uyghur insurgency
            Chechen civil wars

            All with strong Islamist elements. All because of Israel and the Palestinians? Seriously?

          • tolpuddle1

            The Islamist tree has put out many, increasingly horrible, branches and tendrils.

            It’s rooted in Moslem humiliation (and embittered sense of injustice) at the hands of the Western colonial powers and the USA financial imperialism that has replaced them.

            Nevertheless, the compost, the gro-agent, that has kept the Islamist tree growing tall, has been the Israel-Palestine dispute; for one thing, it’s the only matter the Moslems all agree on and feel angry about.

          • Aravis Tarkheena

            Get over it.

            The Jews suffered terrible humiliation and mass murder at the hands of others. And yet they managed to create an advanced, intellectual civilization.

          • Bob339

            All of it totally undeserved. After all over 130 countries have, in the course of history, expelled jews. Wonder why?

          • Amon Duul 3

            That civilisation is responsible for ethnic cleansing, and the theft of land. There is nothing advanced in that.

          • global city

            No it’s not. It is entirely based in the edicts of the Koran and the ‘glory’ of ‘The Caliphate’. It is rooted in religious extremism, supremicism, hate and bloodlust.

            Your analysis relies to much on the issue being forces through the mincer of some warped Marxian perspective.

          • tolpuddle1

            As people have pointed out, if Islam were merely evil, it would be no threat, because no one would ever have followed it. But because there are good and beautiful things in Islam, it is dangerous.

            There are times (like the present, unfortunately) when the negative aspects of Islam take centre stage.

            The Moslem world is as frightened of us, as we are of it. Also, it’s a triumphalist religion which, when not rolling forward, falls into doubt and despair – which are not acknowledged (because Islam is an unreflective, Action Man creed) but emerge in the forms of anger and a compulsive need to coerce everyone else into becoming Moslem.

          • global city

            You twisted the meaning of words that I have not even used!

            Islam has many and repeated strictures against Jews and how to go about them, fortunately most Muslims are lax ones.

          • Weaver

            Just because a doctrine is entirely or mostly evil, it does not follow that people, perhaps even well intentioned people, will not follow it. That’s a straight non-sequitor.

            A marxist should understand that better than most.

            There is however a fair amount of truth in your latter paragraph. The Islamic world is undergoing a crisis of confidence caused by its encounter with modernity. Its immature reaction to the intolerable facts the modern world presents are not pretty (Jews, Christians, Buddhists, Taoists, Hindus, Shintoists, Atheists etc. appear to be richer and more successful than Allah’s chosen). We agree on that much.

          • almarsh

            And are all wrong about. Fuelled by the genocidal requirements of their ideology.

          • Weaver

            USA financial imperialism and colonialism? How on earth do you even measure that? Is this theory even falsifiable? I know its standard Marxist theory, but have you even attempted a proper regression analysis? Y’know, just to see if there is any prima facie support for the idea at all?

            Ooops! I missed out….

            Indonesian Aceh insurgency
            Southern Thai Islamic Insurgency
            Phillipines Moro insurgency
            Puntland civil war
            Malinese civil war

            …all of them doubtless fueled by the Arab-Israeli conflict, despite the evidence of our own lying eyes. Heck, even Osama Bin Laden listed Israel below US troops in Saudi Arabia and …(get this)….the return of Al Andalus…as being more significant.

          • tolpuddle1

            The USA’s financial (and cultural) control over the world is self-evident. Even in Cold War days, the Soviet Empire existed with American permission.

            The fury engendered in many Moslems by the Arab-Israeli conflict has been the foundation stone for much else.

          • Weaver

            “The USA’s financial (and cultural) control over the world is self-evident. Even in Cold War days, the Soviet Empire existed with American permission”

            Well, if I was marking that as a paper, the first sentence is too broad and amphibolous. (What exactly do you mean by control? Are all countries “controlled” to the same degree? How much are they controlled? 10% 50%? 100%? Does control extend across all aspects of policy? And how do you “culturally control” something, exactly?). The second sentence is, I’m afraid, straight-out laughable. Unfortunately, it is NOT self evident to me, or the large majority of diplomats, economists, politicians, and experts in international relations. I know you hold your own views passionately, but you should resist projecting them onto others. It really is a courtesy not to claim “self evident” when it is not. Thanks.

            I think our problem here is that you don’t seem to be engaged with evidence in a structured way, or perhaps aren’t trained in formal logic or statistics. That’s not unusual and nothing to be ashamed of. But I gave you a list of cases which, prima facie, had nothing to do with Arab-Israeli conflict. Some of them even predate 1948, let alone 1967! You have to show what Arab-Israeli adds in explanatory power to the local issues – otherwise Occam’s Razor (or more precisely, Maximum Entropy methods) compel you to accept the alternative explanation. It might help to start if you thought in shades of grey rather than black and white “Well, here its important part of the explanation, say 50% of X’s motivation, whilst over here for Y it’s not, say 10%”), and look for statistical rather than general relationships.

          • Weaver

            Really? How do you know this? Why don’t we ask the groups in conflict?

            It certainly is not clear from their statements of aims and grievances . Apart from the immediate neighbours they hardly ever mention Israel. Even OBL only had Israel as #3 on his list; behind US troops out of Saudi and the return of Spain!

            Oh, I missed out a few more.

            Phillipines southern insurgency,
            Indonesia / Aceh insurgency
            Southern Thailand insurgency

            All “caused” by Israel, I suppose…. despite the fact that the local insurgents never mention it, or the West. I’ve heard of false conciousness but at least be open to the possibility that these people say what they mean.

          • Aravis Tarkheena

            Until this matter is properly dealt with by a peace deal genuinely
            acceptable to both sides, Islamism will increase – both in scope and in
            rage – in the Middle East and globally.
            ——
            And the enraged crazies will continue to get their asses kicked, over and over again, by their far superior opponents.

            Pretty stupid, no?

          • tolpuddle1

            The only people who have defeated the crazies, are the Israelis; partly, it has to be said, from sheer desperation, and at the cost of a permanently militarised mindset and society, while the crazies still howl like wolves on the borders.

            In Iraq and Afghanistan the crazies have won, partly because they are well-financed and well-armed, inferior to the West only in air power and nuclear capability, and superior in all else.

            Moreover the West isn’t fascist – despite its own crazies (Bush, Cheney etc) it will never “kick ass” unless directly threatened.

            Even then the West – having sold its soul for hard cash and sexual pleasure – may prove unequal to its opponents.

          • Aravis Tarkheena

            The West isn’t fascist – despite its own crazies (Bush, Cheney etc) it will never “kick ass” unless directly threatened.
            —————-
            Uh, we were never “directly threatened” by Iraq, this last time around. We kicked their ass to the tune of hundreds of thousands dead.

          • tolpuddle1

            Your posts appear to glory in the West’s ability to kill vast numbers of people.

            The West has certainly killed vast numbers of Iraqis; by bombing a terror-stricken rabble of conscripts at the end of the Gulf War, by handing Iraq over to crazy Sunni and Shia militias from 2003 onwards.

            Though the West has now got its mitts on Iraq’s oil, it has crippled itself in doing so, since in the last resort its strength rests solely on its ideals (freedom, human rights etc) which have been somewhat tarnished (to put it mildly !) by the bloodbaths of the two Iraq wars.

            As for Iraq, it’s divided between Iranian stooges and the truly hellish ISIS.

            So not that great a triumph for the West, which is now in economic (and thus military) decline and in the final stages of selfishness and cynicism.

          • Aravis Tarkheena

            Glory? What are you talking about?

            The point is that Israel is being measured and reserved in their response, in comparison to the way that the US and Europe respond, when they perceive their interests to be at stake.

            It’s all awful. The point is that Israel is being held to a ridiculous standard, to which we hold no other modern country.

          • Amon Duul 3

            Israel gets a free ride, it is not held to any standards.

          • Amon Duul 3

            the crazies run Israel and they get government handouts not to fight but to read the same book over and over again. Why?

          • Kenneth O’Keeffe

            To be fair, that’s just a negotiating point. They’ll come round, if the israelis were to roll back on the illegal settlements.

          • Damaris Tighe

            What an optimist you are! I hope you’re right.

          • Amon Duul 3

            Hamas are not at the negotiating table. Your point is irrelevant.

          • http://steviethek.wordpress.com steviethek

            they weren’t the “bone of contention’ from 1949 to 1967, when the ‘more worthwhile territories’ were Jordanian, and yet why wasn’t a Palestinian state declared then?

          • tolpuddle1

            Obviously, because the land was then occupied by Arabs.

            It is now occupied largely, and increasingly, by Jewish settlers

          • http://steviethek.wordpress.com steviethek

            willfully incorrect – including for starters the Jewish Quarter of Jerusalem, Mt. of Olives, Hadassah Hospital, etc etc which were ethnically cleansed post 1949

            not that facts will change your excuse making

          • tolpuddle1

            Wrongs have been committed by both sides – all know that.

            The instances you mention – which I’ve no doubt are correct – don’t alter the truth of the situation, which is that the territory gained by Israel in 1967 was – overwhelmingly – formerly owned and occupied by Palestinian Arabs, but is now settled (occupied, in fact) by Israeli Jews; including Jews led from America to Israel by a mixture of religious fervour and an even more fervent desire for land.

            The Israeli settlements are often excused by biblical precedent: “God gave us this land back in Moses time, so we’ve now got a right to re-acquire it as war booty, or by threats and acts of violence against Palestinians.”

            Most people in the world call this claim blasphemy. It is in any case a wish to cut God down to size, to turn Him into a catspaw (a glove-puppet) for insanely selfish and greedy, in some cases violent, Israeli settlers – thus reducing the Almighty (self-described in Jewish scripture as “The Lord who made heaven and earth”) to a petty and bigoted tribal war deity. Pass the bongo-bongos !

          • rmba

            Um, Mr Tolpuddle, none of Hamas’ 10 demands for a truce have anything to do with the West Bank.

          • Amon Duul 3

            The rockets are coming from Israel.

          • alexa44

            What land grab?

          • tolpuddle1

            The settlement, by Israeli Jews, of the formerly Arab land grabbed by Israel as war booty in 1967.

            Though of course – in the world of piracy that you seem to inhabit – war booty isn’t theft, a military land grab is perfectly OK.

            Might is Right ! Ze Strong must survive !

          • global city

            What is your view on the post WWII settlement regarding Germany?

            Do you have a view?

          • tolpuddle1

            You mean, should the land unjustly taken from Germans in Eastern Europe circa 1945, be restored to their descendants (or full compensation paid to them in lieu of the land) ?

            Yes, certainly, even though those who originally lost the land were fervent Nazis.

            Until some such deal is offered to the Palestinians, it’s difficult to see how Israel will find Peace (in Hebrew, Shalom, I believe).

          • global city

            I don’t think that at all. It is a useful exercise to consider just how much land Israel has returned of that which it captured in 67. the land grabs being undertaken now are a form of pressure to make the Palestinians settle for peace. If they had done so decades ago then the Jews would not be on it now.

            Remember when Israel pulled out of Gaza and the West Bank….for peace? how did that go?

          • tolpuddle1

            What planet are you on ? Israeli settlers are taking over disputed land with a view to keeping it, not as “a form of pressure to make the Palestinians settle for peace. It is the continued settlement by Israelis that has killed the peace process stone dead.

            Most Israelis applaud or accept the settlers and no Israeli government could – even if it wanted to – expel any significant group of settlers in the interests of a peace deal.

            Ariel Sharon managed – with great difficulty – to expel Jewish settlers from Gaza; but as a sop to the Arabs and Sharon was….Sharon.

          • alexa44

            Point is it showed us what will happan if we will leave Juedea and Samaria

          • global city

            you answered the point in a way which proved mine. If Hamas and the other Arab/Palestinian/Muslim groups guaranteed peace then those settlements would no doubt be removed, as they have repeatedly been done down the decades once an accord has been agreed.

            The trouble is now that Hamas have jettisoned the two state solution and have settled on the big one… the elimination of Israel and the mass murder of the Jews.

            that is the reason why, at the end of the day, I back the rights of Israel. Why are you so passionate about the Palestinian’s cause?

          • tolpuddle1

            “Those settlements would no doubt be removed” – as they are inhabited by about half a million Jews, how on earth can they be, just logistically ?

            Time methinks, for lateral thinking and some sort of compensation package for the Palestinians, vaguely like the compensation offered to people displaced by new roads and railways. Bigger scale though !

            I’m not passionate about the Palestinian cause and have no wish to fight their battles, though the Israel-Palestine quarrel has lasted for nigh on a century now, with no clear sign of resolution. All want to see a peace settlement in this dreary and painful dispute, which is moreover the most persistent and dangerous threat to world peace.

            I am passionate about attacking one-sided arguments for one or other of the parties in dispute. I recognise of course that many in the pro-Israel camp are very sincerely wild-eyed people subject to bouts of anxiety-driven passion bordering on insanity. They have counterparts in the pro-Palestine camp, needless to say.

          • global city

            I respect your angst, but, really, you are whistling in the wind if you really think that land is at the heart of this dispute.

            I would love it if the good ideas you present could be accepted, the thugs could be wished away and Palestine could take it’s place in the community of peaceful, democratic nations, but that is impossible….and the barrier is not Israel.

            I also agree with your last paragraph, but that is merely a tiny complication. As I’ve written previously, I come down on the side of Israel as to back their enemies would be supporting a real genocide of the Jews.

            Secularisation and democratisation are the only long term hope that we have. the most important thing will be for the majority of Muslims to get to the stage where the word of Allah is not the strict and central mandate they see it as now. I am sick to death of religious extremists trying to impose their lunatic ideas on the rest of the world. the trouble is that 99% of the true nuts in the world are Muslim.

          • tolpuddle1

            The religious writer Karen Armstrong (a former nun) makes the point that religions become fundamentalist when they feel threatened, fundamentalism being a desperate counter-attack.

            The Islamic world has some reason to feel threatened – it is surrounded in all directions by opponents, who have most of the world’s science, power and money, while the Moslem world writhes in helpless attempts at self-renewal. That secular world has since about 1840 turned the Moslem world upside-down (cars, tall buildings, you name it) and constantly dangles temptations (booze, porn, sexual freedom etc) in front of Allah-fearing Moslems.

            As a Catholic, I think the West is now too much at the other extreme (too secularist and selfishly libertarian) and consequently is in decline. That is the real danger to the West, since all its money and armaments cannot counteract the personal and social decline that is all around us.

            And let’s be frank – if the West goes under or we become Eurabia (which may happen quite peacefully), then Israel has problems.

          • global city

            That does not take into consideration the aggression, again, as prescribed in the Koran. It also does not explain the aggression, expansive nature and supremacist actions of the previous 1,000 years of unthreatened Islam….especially in the M.E and N Africa.

          • alexa44

            Arab land? you mean the land that was illegly occupied by Egypt and Jordan.?
            war booty? you mean defensive war against arab agression?
            still what has that to do with Gaza I don ‘t know as Israe left Gaza 9 yeras ago,.

          • tolpuddle1

            As you obviously know, the whole conflict – including the periodic brouhahas over Gaza – is being driven by the dispute over the “occupied territories” – the Arab land that fell under Israeli control as a consequence of the 1967 war.

            That Israel’s cause in that war was just, doesn’t mean that Israel’s hanging onto its war booty (ot for reasons of security, but for purposes of annexation and colonial-style settlemnt

          • alexa44

            Israel leaving Gaza with the result of rockets being fired proved to us Israelis what will happan if we will leave Judea and Samaria for a Paletsinian state with no real security condition. We will have all of Israel under short range rockets.

          • tolpuddle1

            There are too many settlers in Judea and Samaria for the Israelis to leave anyway.

            So what peace plan can be sketched out ?

            If none, war will continue.

          • Aravis Tarkheena

            And the Palestinians will continue to lose.

            Pretty dumb behavior, no?

          • alexa44

            Not really. Most of the Jews who live in Judea and Samaria live near the cease fire line in area that was agreed will be swap . even the PA agreed to that.
            The question which bother most Israeli now is how to avoid another Gaza a Palesitnian state will be created in Judea and Samaria.

          • Amon Duul 3

            Not a defensive war.

          • Aravis Tarkheena

            You really are a fool, aren’t you?

            It’s “piracy” to take land in a war that someone else started and you won?

            By your expansive definitions, virtually every country in the world was taken by “piracy.”

            Still waiting for your demand that the US evacuate its lands and return them to the Mexicans and American Indians.

          • tolpuddle1

            It’s only recently that the English have forgiven the French for the Conquest of 1066 ! The cruelties done to the American Indians hang over the USA like a curse; the USA is in steep decline and rapid demographic change; it probably won’t exist in 2050. And if it does, it will be Asian-Black-Hispanic.

            Since the 1967 War was started by Arab leaders like Nasser, it’s absurdly unjust that ordinary Palestinians should pay for it. And very cruel. War booty is both cruel and unjust; that “everyone” has committed such thefts, doesn’t for a second excuse them – just how dense are you?

            In 1870-71, the Prussian army defeated France. Bismarck refrained from seizing French territory, fearing permanent French hostility if he did. But he was over-ruled by the Army, who seized the provinces of Alsace and Lorraine for the newly-formed German state.

            Result: two world wars that Germany lost.

            Only fools sneer at justice and compassion or downplay them. And as Israel’s sole hope of survival is the God of Abraham, described as “Justice and Kindness” in the Jewish scriptures, any Jew or other supporter of Israel who sneers at these things, is a lemming as well as foolish.

          • Aravis Tarkheena

            War booty is both cruel and unjust; that “everyone” has committed such
            thefts, doesn’t for a second excuse them – just how dense are you ?
            ============
            Right. That’s why I’m waiting for your impassioned calls for other countries to give back the lands they stole as “war booty.” The US goes back to Mexico and the American Indians…

            I actually agree with a lot of what you write here. It is cruel that the Palestinians should pay for the crazy and stupid behavior of the Arab governments in the region. But this is not primarily Israel’s fault, nor is it really in their power to repair. The Arab nations rely on the Palestinians remaining a permanent homeless population, as negative PR against Israel. They don’t want the problem solved.

          • tolpuddle1

            It’s too late for the war booty of 1967 to be handed back. But until the Palestinians are given some sort of compensation package, Middle Eastern (and thus World) peace are on a knife-edge; who gains from that ? – certainly not Israel.

            1967 is in my lifetime; the interesting wrongs you mention in the States happened long before. It would be difficult to return land or pay compensation to the American Indians, since they were the victims of a largely-successful genocide.

            As for the Mexicans – America IS going back to them now, isn’t it ?

          • Aravis Tarkheena

            I actually don’t agree with your first paragraph.

            If there could be a period of calm and quiet, both sides could purge the extremists from their internal politics. Those extremists get their motivation and justification from the constant low-grade warfare.

            Once that is accomplished and cooler heads are in charge, a serious, productive, comprehensive peace could be made.

            The challenge is the initial agreement, which no one will be happy with. But it’s what everyone should be pushing for. The current, fashionable “Israel is worse than Hitler” talk is exactly not what is needed and only guarantees that Israeli politics will stay in the hands of the Rightists.

          • Aravis Tarkheena

            Actually, yes, a liberal, mostly democratic country is better than the authoritarian, illiberal terror regimes that surround it.

            Gay Palestinians have to flee *to* Israel, lest they be arrested and put to death by their own people. Israeli Arabs enjoy a much higher standard of living and much safer living environment than those living in Egypt, Syria, Lebanon, etc.

            Finally, as to “land grabs,” Gaza and the West Bank were both taken in a war — one that the Arabs started and lost. While I think the Israelis should return them too — they’re not worth the blood and treasure — they were hardly taken illegitimately, like, say, the entire United States.

          • tolpuddle1

            Some sort of economic and financial deal may be the best (only ?) way out of the present gloomy impasse.

          • Amon Duul 3

            BDS now!

          • Amon Duul 3

            Israel started that war by the Nakba.

          • global city

            They are. The hard liners in the Isreali establishment have no aim to wipe out all Muslims and drive them into the sea. No mention of anything remotely genocidal appears in Israel’s constitution or legal structures.

            A small illustration of this is the fact that Israeli Arabs have a better standard of living than any Arab community anywhere else in ‘Arab lands’.

          • Amon Duul 3

            Why compare Israeii Arabs with Arabs instead of comparing them with Isrealis?

          • Kaschner

            Impartiality is, so far as the BBC is concerned, a very slippery concept. Hardly anyone of reasonably sound judgement does not know what the BBC’s agenda is. The recent decision explicitly to support one side of the Global Warming debate cannot surely have been missed by rtj1211.

            This morning’s “Today” programme (18.7.14) gave a platform to an extraordinary and very long anti-Israeli ran by a Hamas propagandist. There was one half-hearted interjection by the female interviewer whose mention of the Hamas missile attacks only served to allow the terrorist spokesperson to claim that the rockets represented a wholly justified response to Israeli aggression.

            A RESPONSE!

            Needless to say, that pervasion of the truth was allowed to go unchallenged as the interviewer courteously thanked the spokesman for his willingness to take advantage of the opportunity of spreading the terrorist message.

            I’m sure rtj1211 will have noted and celebrated this outstanding contribution to the cause of impartiality.

        • tolpuddle1

          The BBC and Jeremy Bowen are merely showing the destruction caused by Israeli attacks.

          You’d like to shoot the messenger, but are reduced to screaming that he’s (supposedly) a prejudiced “terrorist lover” – a comment that says vastly more about you than it does about Jeremy Bowen.

          • will91

            Can they please show this then.

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eQ6S0-o3uFI

            It’s an Hamas spokesman on a news programme encouraging Gazan’s to act as human shields.

            I personally, would have thought, that might at least warrant a fleeting mention on BBC news. You know the fact that this sick organisation doesn’t care about Israeli OR Palestinian life. It is a sick, degenerate, savage death cult. Who must be having a right laugh when naive infidels like yourself seek to defend them.

          • tolpuddle1

            I have no illusions about HAMAS, monsieur.

            Nor have I posted anything whatever defending them.

            Detesting both sides is a perfectly reasonable option. If the article had been written by a HAMAS apologist, I’d have attacked HAMAS; but as it is written by a hard-line Israeli apologist (it’s in The Spectator, after all), I attacked the Israeli Right and their policies.

          • will91

            “I have no illusions about HAMAS”.

            Excellent, so in that case, please reserve your ire for Hamas. Detesting both sides is not a logical position given my previous comment.

          • tolpuddle1

            You seem to think that the Israeli militants (Binyamin Netanyahu’s government and its supporters, for example) are less detestable than their Hamas counterparts.

            They aren’t.

          • Jonathan

            Actually you cannot compare the Hamas animals and their government to the democracy of Israel. Hamas has no regard for human life and their own people. They lie to their own people and only now they are realizing that have been ripped off. Get educated mate. Read the news. Look what Israel is doing to save lives in Gaza. http://www.washingtoninstitute.org/policy-analysis/view/gaza-public-rejects-hamas-wants-ceasefire#.U8pZhrZQwag.facebook
            Look how Israel inform the gazan people prior to destroying the houses that hold the rockets. Compare them to the other animals in the middle east who hang gay people, who do not have equal rights for woman, who kill 150,000 people in 2 years with no action on behalf of the UN. Mate get educated. Read what is really going on in the middle east.

          • tolpuddle1

            The ultra-orthodox (gay-hating and misogynist) are winning the battle of the womb in Israel and will fairly soon be running Israel; the Western nature of Israel will inevitably fade and largely disappear over time..

            That the Israelis are more prudent (and thus more careful of world opinion) than the Islamists is undisputed.

            The Israelis suffer from a paranoid psychosis, the Islamists from a psychosis of homicidal rage.

          • global city

            have you not come across the old saying that goes ‘just because you’re paranoid does not mean the bastards are not out to get you’

            Are you really saying that taking those dire warnings and threats about wiping out all the Jews just paranoia?

          • tolpuddle1

            Wariness is good, constant anxiety is bad.

            As others have said, the Israelis must recognise their strength, not just the dangers they face – they are after all the regional superpower. They are no longer the pitiful European Jews-in-exile who were so constantly mistreated and sometimes massacred, in years gone by.

            But if a happy outcome is to be achieved, the Israelis cannot rely only on strength; they must also be generous – not the most notable characteristic of either warring party nor of any other group of human beings.

            As throughout history, the Middle East is the place where human nature is weighed, and found wanting.

          • Shelagh Delves-Broughton

            Um, I hate to point it out to you but the man you are agreeing with just denied that 6 million jews were killed by saying that its ok for 100,00 jews to be paranoid…………he was politely denying the Holocaust and claiming jews to be paranoid and like an idiot you walked right in and agreed with him, albeit with a different person…….I’m afraid you are not as intelligent as you believe yourself to be. LOL

          • tolpuddle1

            But you’re wilfully (and rather absurdly) distorting my post (I was replying to global city, not Kenneth O’Keeffe) .

            Are you always so dishonest ? Probably – from the clowns who sign off “LOL” only the worst can be expected.

          • Kenneth O’Keeffe

            Yes. When Hitler murdered about 100,000 jews in the 1940s, this has, I understand, affected the jewish psyche deeply. One must therefore understand and sympathise with them on their paranoia.

          • global city

            Hey, a double hit in one statement there. You are so clever and in on ‘the know’!

          • Amon Duul 3

            When Israel ethnically cleansed 800,000 Palestinians during the Nakba that affected their psyche.

          • Sabra

            that implies they were murdered, and you know damn well they were not. 800,000 Jews were ethnically cleansed at the same time from Arab countries – betcha didn’t even know that, Amon Dull

          • Amon Duul 3

            You need to read the definition of ethnic cleansing. No Jew was ethnically cleansed by a Palestinian. Israel encouraged them to leave. Your point is irrelevant.

          • Agio

            You may be right about “no Jew was ethnically cleansed by a Palestinian.”
            Why do you suppose that is, huh?
            If given the chance, do you suppose the Palestinians would simply open their arms and accept the Jew into their midst–yeah, just like the Shiite accept the Sunni, but a hellava worse; am I right?

          • MyronSyron

            What!!! Where did you get that statistic? How many Syrians, Egyptians, Saudi’s, Iragis, Iranians died?

          • MyronSyron

            Iraqis….sorry. Killed by their own government…where is the outcry over these deaths?

          • KDS1234

            They fleed because they were urged to do so by the surrounding Arab countries, who promised they could return once Israel is destroyed.

          • Amon Duul 3

            Rubbish. This lie was destroyed years ago, they were ethnically cleansed via massacre.

          • KDS1234

            Destroyed by who? No one killed them, if you actually claim Israel have killed 800,000 Palestinians, you are even more ignorant then i thought.

          • Amon Duul 3

            Rubbish. This lie was destroyed years ago, they were ethnically cleansed via massacre.

          • Sabra

            Make that 6,000,000 you ignoranus

          • Hank Missenheim_Jr

            Propaganda bullshit.

          • Amon Duul 3

            Yes the fundies are in charge of the Israeli asyulmn.

          • MyronSyron

            Oh…if only you could spell asylum.

          • Donafugata

            Just a few days ago Israeli planes dropped leaflets warning Gazans to evacuate but Hamas told them it was a lie and they should stay put.

            And this from the twisters of truth at Channel 4 News.

          • Tony

            Where would they evacuate to?

          • MyronSyron

            they could use the tunnels that Hamas built! Oh, I forgot..Israel is destroying those tunnels meant to infiltrate Israel and cause harm. Sorry. That’s what you get for electing a terrorist group.

          • ilPugliese

            Your underlying motive is English nationalism, and everything you write is grist to that mill.

          • Amon Duul 3

            Wow a leaflet telling me that I will die if I do not move to an area where I will killed anyway.

          • Donafugata

            I think you misunderstand me, I’ve been saying the very same thing as many here at The Spectator will know.

          • ilPugliese

            Of course it’s a logical position. Two tribes, dominated by their religions, who have been fighting each other for ever. Who needs it?

          • Terry Field

            Israel has offered a real deal three times – blame the Palestinian thug leadership for no deal They are death-worshipers. Insane people.

          • tolpuddle1

            That the Palestinians have been horribly served by their leaders for decades, is something that all can agree on.

            But when Yitzhak Rabin was murdered for supporting Land for Peace – it wasn’t a Palestinian who murdered him. Nor did Israeli opinion in general subsequently rally behind his cause. Thus the Israeli Hard Right won.

            Whatever the full reasons for the failure of Oslo and the Land for Peace deals, they have now failed utterly and Israeli settlement will soon reach near 100% of the disputed land.

            So if it’s no longer Land for Peace, then it’s What for Peace? The dispute isn’t going to fade away, whatever some Israelis and their supporters may hope.

          • Shelagh Delves-Broughton

            You need to wake up. They are not interested in any peace deals. The Islamist extremist use all of that as a smoke screen. They simply do NOT want anyone on MidEast soil, whether they be Jewish, or Christian. The Christians have fled Gaza……take a peek at what took place in Iraq a few days ago when they gave the christians 3 choices. 1) Convert 2) Pay a Dhimmi tax 3) Die They chose option 4) and fled……The goals of Hamas and Arafat before him are exactly the same.

          • tolpuddle1

            So you wish Israel (and in time the West) to be in a state of permanent war ? – since if what you say is the whole truth, they will have to be.

            You’re a sad specimen of the nihilistic position many of Israel’s supporters have adopted since the death of Land for Peace.

          • disqus_W6sfZCiOd8

            Toipuddl1 – I don’t believe your comment: “I have no illusions about HAMAS”
            From reading your comments I think you are anti-Israeli. I think you’d like to see Israel destroyed.

          • tolpuddle1

            My posts were directed against ludicrously pro-Israel comments about the article, apparently posted by the massed choirs of the Likud Party plus sundry non-Jewish rightist bigots.

            I’m not anti-Israeli, any more than I’m pro-Israeli; it’s not my quarrel and I have no dog in the fight. And no, I’d derive no pleasure whatever from Israel’s being destroyed (something I think highly unlikely to happen).

            Few in the West live in the juvenile and lunatic world of GW Bush and Melanie Phillips: “If you’re not for us, you’re against us.” No, Melanie – we want peace, not anti-semitism; since when is a love of peace anti-semitic ? – we’re not all sword-waving enthusiasts (see under “crackpots”) like yourself.

          • Amon Duul 3

            Israel has NEVER offered a deal that the Palestinians could accept.

          • Damaris Tighe

            Ah, the bored ennui of the ever-so-reasonable Englishman over events in “a country of which we know little”.

          • Shelagh Delves-Broughton

            I am embarrassed to be British myself………..

          • global city

            But, if Hamas did not do what they do then Israel would not do what they repeatedly have to. That’s the point. Israel is fighting Hamas, not Palestinians, whilst Hamas ARE fighting ‘the Jew’…an absolutely central difference.

            If Israel backed into the ‘pre-67’ boundaries Hamas would continue their attacks. If they stopped then some other group of islamofascists would carry on, as they intend not stopping until every Jew (note, not Israeli, or Zionist) was pushed into the sea ( florid Islamist metaphore for kill them all)

          • tolpuddle1

            No group of fanatics – not even Islamist fanatics ! – can continue indefinitely without some solid popular support. You cannot simply destroy – sooner or later even ISIS will have to govern and will find it impossible to rely on violence alone.

            The best way of undermining Hamas (and all the other Islamo-fascists or rather Islamo-medievalists, around the world) is by doing a peace deal over Hamas’s head: I see no Israeli party or individual capable of even attempting to do this – I wish I did.

            The point you make about Hamas fighting “the Jew” is valid; but little consolation to any child or other civilian hit by Israeli munitions.

          • global city

            and thus, we return to the central point. The stuff in the Koran that lends soft acquiescence to Jew hate, if not outright clamour for their elimination amongst an unhealthy proportion of ‘moderate’ Muslims..

            How do you overcome that? That is the basis of what support I voice regarding issues in that part of the world.

          • Thomas Häupl

            The Torah has some interesting Racism in it as well. Goes both ways, comrade. Goes both ways.

          • Agio

            Slight difference mate: The wanton murderers of non-Muslims or, in the alternative, Muslims from “other sects” by these Muslim fanatics on a day-to-day, real-time basis not only vs. Israel, but in Syria, Iraq and other places too numerous to mention here, is maddening, yes?
            And, all in the name of Allah, yes?
            Whether the Torah has such references as you state (I just don’t know), but even if you are correct, you don’t see “fanatic” Jews indiscriminately blowing up innocent non-Jews, or in the alternative, other Jews, do you?
            And, BTW, don’t give me the typical ( and, indefensible) argument that because Israel must defend herself from 1000’s of rockets raining down on her and Hamas’ troops on the ground though their tunnel networks who relentlessly try to murder innocent children and others is the same thing as a Nation surrounded by violent hoards of people who are hell-bent in liquidating all Jews–they are not.

          • KDS1234

            Luckily, Israeli low is NOT the torah.

          • Shelagh Delves-Broughton

            Fascinating! Another person offering a solution that could never work and has already proven not to when giving back land. Gaza being the most recent example

          • tolpuddle1

            I wasn’t offering a solution – I’m not a politician or expert on the Middle East.

            I was merely pointing out the obvious – that there are only two possibilities:

            A Peace deal
            War in perpetuity

            You seem to believe the former impossible; or attainable only by more Israeli bombardments (which in fact push the situation further towards perpetual war).

            “I have set before you Life and Death. Choose Life.”

          • Amon Duul 3

            You cannot give back something that you have stolen.

          • MyronSyron

            Prior to 1967 there was no Palestinian state. Arabs, now called Palestinians lived in tents on the West Bank, controlled by Jordan. The world did nothing to alleviate their plight. Only after Israel captured the West Bank did the world demand that these Arabs, so-called Palestinians have any rights to any land. Read your history folks and learn something.

          • Amon Duul 3

            Rubbish, the Palestinians were offered a state by the UN in 48, before Israel invaded and stole land outside that set aside for the jewish state.

          • http://steviethek.wordpress.com steviethek

            well that was half correct – up to “israel invaded” which is the exact opposite of what actually happened, which I suspect you know.

          • Amon Duul 3

            It is all in Plan Dalet. Look it up.

          • Amon Duul 3

            If IsraeL ACCEPTED THE 67 boundaries,it would have peace.

          • global city

            How did the 67 borders come to change?….oh, that’s right, the Arabs millennial obsession with killing all the Jews. That has not changed.

          • MyronSyron

            Idiot…do you know what the so-called 67 boundaries are? I doubt it! No other Arab country wants the Palestinians historically….so now the tiny country of Israel is supposed to solve the Palestinian state issue…how? When Hamas swears to destroy Israel…who should be negotiating with such madmen?

          • Amon Duul 3

            Idiot. Israel created the Palestinian state issue, by invading the area set aside for the Arab state in the Nakba.

          • Shelagh Delves-Broughton

            Im neither Israeli, nor the right, nor a jew, nor religious but an atheist and you my dear are a hypocrite!

          • tolpuddle1

            Projection, methinks.

          • GreeneGhost

            It is likely you would have detested “both sides” between the Allies and the Axis during World War II as a “reasonable option”.

          • Sue

            Well, with Hitler on one side and Stalin on the other…
            would that be so unreasonable?

            Didn’t they both murder millions for ideological reasons?

          • Terry Field

            Some chance – the BBC should be ripped apart and the news element offered to others with the payment of that part of the fee.
            It is beyond dreadful.

          • disqus_W6sfZCiOd8

            “the BBC should be ripped apart and the news element offered to others with the payment of that part of the fee.” I’m glad I’m not the only person feeling that way. It is disgraceful how biased the BBC is. They never dwell on the fact that more Muslims have been murdered by Muslims in Syria, Pakistan,Iraq,etc. Yet, it is Israel who is targeted as the demon by the BBC.

          • Shelagh Delves-Broughton

            I believe this article says it best and shall explain why the BBC and other media outlets are not covering it……its the almighty dollar

            http://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/4465/terrorists-reality-show

          • Terry Field

            Cods – every report of Bowen is laced – poisonously subliminally or overtly – with anti-semitism.

          • tolpuddle1

            The same old lie – anyone who hates Israeli government policies (or their gruesome effects) must be an anti-semite.

            Not.

          • Terry Field

            No – you demonstrate anti-semitism not simply by a stated dislike of ‘policies’ – you are far more visceral than that.

          • tolpuddle1

            I am viscerally opposed to the policies of the present Israeli government and some of its predecessors. That’s because I’m not a perfectly impartial and dispassionate calculating machine, like yourself, supposedly.

            But MUST you lie ? Is detestation of Israeli policies anti-semitism ? No. Is detestation of Putin, hatred of Russians ?
            No. Is hatred of ISIS hatred of Moslems, “Islamophobia” ? No.

            In accusing me of anti-semitism, you are not merely being a liar, you are crying wolf. It’s a dangerous game to play. What will you and your Likudnik pals do when the real anti-semites show up ?

          • Terry Field

            OK you have protested to the point that I accept your word re Israel, but the moslem comparison was ill judged as far a I am concerned.

          • Shelagh Delves-Broughton

            You are a real Anti Semite. You are just unable to see it. You are no different than the Germans in the 1930s that believed Hitlers propaganda so easily. They too were unable to see what they had become, yet its so clear to the rest of us……..5 days ago had I seen this debate, I could have pushed a few more buttons and i can promise you your composure would have fully crumbled and wed have seen the truth come out………..im not even a jew or an israeli or right wing and i can smell you a mile away

          • tolpuddle1

            I am unfortunate in being able to smell you, your smugness and your illusion of being a good and impartial person, from much further away than a mile.

            But personal insults spewed forth by you aside (anti-semitism, hypocrisy) you are merely a machine repeating what is by now a very OLD falsehood:

            Opponent of Israeli government policy = a Nazi.

            Can’t you do better than that ?

          • Amon Duul 3

            They cannot do better than that.

          • Amon Duul 3

            you are an anti Muslim troll.

          • cawthornish

            Well put! Your comment draws my attention to the “Judeophobic” comment by Mrs Phillips and its implication by her and her ilk. This link between dislike of government policy and dislike of religion needs to be severed. Most religions have something to be disliked in their misleading of people. However, when it comes to actual violence and lies, its politicians (zionist ones here) that are despicable. I for one am tired of hearing these types attempt to link a rational fear of extremist violence to the small minded squabbling of deluded God botherers.

          • Santos2

            No, you single out Israel and spew all your venom at it while you ignore all the other , real, offenders, like those murdering by the hundreds of thousands in places like Syria and Iraq. That’s what makes it anti-Semitism.

          • tolpuddle1

            No one on this site has defended the appalling people you mention.

            So why should I trouble to attack them, especially as Melanie Phillips’ article didn’t deal with Iraq or Syria ?

            I have sought to speak frankly and forcefully; venomously, no.

          • Santos2

            Then please point me to where you have spoken out against those “appalling people” on other threads, preferably on Islamic news sites. Let me see how you have behaved even-handedly towards those as you are so quick to do towards Israel.

          • Santos2

            Still waiting for that link, Mr. pants puddle. Waiting…..waiting……waiting…..waiting……zzzzz…..oh sorry, nodded off for a second….waiting…..waiting…..waiting……

          • tolpuddle1

            I’m not an aficionado of Islamic websites ! But thanks for the interesting suggestion.

          • Santos2

            Still waiting.,,,,

          • Shelagh Delves-Broughton

            you will be waiting forever……………hes a dime a dozen

          • Amon Duul 3

            No one has to provide evidence of their right to critiise any nation.

          • Santos2

            You need to make sense. Try again.

          • Shelagh Delves-Broughton

            yea yea yeah……save it for those who believe you…….feel free to show us EVEN 3 POSTS in the past showing the anger you have here and I will bet you cannot…………I already know you can’t………….you just rail against Israel……….anti semites like yourself are a dime a dozen

          • tolpuddle1

            I don’t debate with loons like ISIS, Hamas or their supporters. And where were they on this site ?

            I do the pro-Israel camp the credit of assuming that they’re capable of rational debate; though, seeing your posts, that capacity clearly isn’t universal among them.

            Moreover, Israel is the regional superpower, is in the driving seat.

            These periodic spats with the Palestinians make Israel less, not more, secure; military victory is offset by political defeat.

            And do, please, stop the moral grandstanding – it’s not as if you’re a good person.

          • Amon Duul 3

            No one needs to provide a CV before they can criticise Israel. Idiot.

          • Amon Duul 3

            Well said.

          • AndyPlatt

            Straw man. Seen this rubbish in several places now, presumably the Islamophobes are all swapping notes.

          • Santos2

            I’m still waiting for a link of some sort. I can wait forever, if needed.

          • Amon Duul 3

            you need to provide a link of all your criticisms of Israeli actions.

          • Santos2

            There are plenty right here on this page.

          • Thomas Häupl

            No, that does not make it anti Semitism and correlation is not cause. Nor is he “spewing venom”. He is critically disagreeing.

          • Santos2

            Yes it is anti-Semitism. Saying it isn’t doesn’t change that. He’s an anti-Semite and now, so are you for defending him. Live with it.

          • Amon Duul 3

            The argument that ctiticising Israel makes someone anti semtitic is a busted flush. You are not allowed to use the claim of anti Semitism. You are banned from using it.

          • Santos2

            Sorry, the anti-Semite does not get to define what anti-Semitism is. Just as blacks define what is racist to them so do Jews define what is anti-Semitic. And attacking the Jewish state of Israel is anti-Semitic. YOU are banned from attacking Israel ever again.

          • Shelagh Delves-Broughton

            exactly and that last post his composure began to crumble as it always does………i wish id had been here 5 days ago and i promise you I would have had composure fully in the sink…………it happens every time when you get one like this person…………hes the worst of the lot yet has no idea what he is, he can’t face it in himself

          • Amon Duul 3

            Rubbish, your comparison is false.

          • Santos2

            It is actually quite valid. Singling out one group of people for something that is being done much, much, much worse by others is discrimination. In this case, discrimination against Jews, or anti-Semitism.

          • Shelagh Delves-Broughton

            Oh puleeze, don’t be so naive

          • Amon Duul 3

            Yes, but no one believes it any more.

          • Bob339

            Why would anyone be anti-semitic? Strange.

          • Shelagh Delves-Broughton

            its very deeply ingrained and very few realize they are and will fight to the point their composure fails if you know what to say to them……….their composure ALWAYS fails and the politeness suddenly goes away and you are often left with the lowest form of classless person………they begin to swear etc………he’s one of the worst and any of us can smell him a mile away……….

          • Amon Duul 3

            We can smell your false claim of anti Semitism as a mask for your ignorance a mile away.

          • Agio

            Why, genius?
            Please tell us.

          • Rabbi Burns

            They are extremely careful to pick and choose what they show to the British viewer. They are trying to get traditional, establishment anti-semitism to permeate the national consciousness but, thanks to our own experience of muslim extremists, many of us are no longer buying it.

          • tolpuddle1

            Historians have pointed out that the British Establishment (aside from mavericks like Oswald Mosley) has usually been far kinder to Jews than British public opinion as a whole.

            That the BBC etc have shown more scenes of death and destruction from the Arab quarters than from the Jewish quarters, is a consequence of Israeli firepower, not of anti-semitism.

          • Agio

            the preference of the “free” press to show the Palestinian side of this terrible conflict (more than the Israeli side) is, by definition, unfair to most fair-minded individuals and, for sure, to most Jews. Remember this: the next war that Israel loses, will be her last. She is entitled to take whatever action is needed to neutralize any serious threat (like 1000’s of rockets and troop intrusion over its sovereign space).
            Can you imagine if rockets streamed down on England or America and that there would be no response for either to protect itself?
            Indeed, every effort would be made (and was during WWII) to protect the homeland.
            It’s pretty simply stuff, yes?

          • tolpuddle1

            There might be a response from Britain or the USA if – whatever the provocation – they were being bombarded by Israel or invaded by Israeli armour.

          • Amon Duul 3

            Rockets streamed on the Uk from the IRA, but they did not sink as low as Israel.

          • Agio

            You still don’t get it, do you?
            During the Holocaust (or are you one of those who deny the Holocaust?), the Nazi’s marched the Jews (and many others) to their death.
            That will never happen again–understand?
            It’s Hamas’ (as well as others) to liquidate Israel and the Jews from this planet.
            And, if you think that the British didn’t respond with “all Hell” against the IRA, you need to re-read the history books.
            The suicide bombs, regardless of which person delivers it, is by definition revolting and cowardly.
            No civilized society accepts Hamas’ deliberate provocation to bomb ANYONE in Israel without regard to race, gender or age–including, but not limited, to Israeli-Palestinians living in Israel.
            Are you as outraged about the Muslims relentlessly killing other Muslims (Syria, Iraq, Nigeria, Egypt, etc) because of some religious difference or the killing of Christians because they are non-Muslim?
            Explain this to us please.

          • Thomas Häupl

            Exactly (first paragraph). And spot on (second paragraph)

          • Shelagh Delves-Broughton

            I AM BRITISH…………..and you are either a liar or extremely naive. I am appalled by the anti semitism that permeates the British people, of which I belong.

          • Amon Duul 3

            There is minimal anti Semitism in the UK.

          • Agio

            You, sir have no standing to say that “there is minimal anti-Semitism in the UK.”
            Unless you are a Jew, how the hell can you know this? Why, are some of your best friends Jewish?
            Indeed!

          • Amon Duul 3

            You sir, cannot say that only Jews can detect anti Semtism. There is dreadful anti Palestinianism in Europe. The terrorist JDL are on the rise in Paris and Toronto.

          • Agio

            Let’s be crystal clear about this, shall we? You may be able to “detect” anti-Semitism, but that is nowhere close to being the target of anti-Semitism or any other hatred that is spewed by many who hate the Jews.
            The “terrorist JDL”, what do you mean here?
            Please explain your loose use of the word “terrorist”…were you simply mistaken

          • Terry Field

            Anyone who is not immune to islamic liars is a rare beast in Britain these days.
            Almost nobody believes the Islamic community is other than packed full of radical, isolated, foreign-culture and foreign-religion haters- it is not a community – is a really very alien and dangerous interloper ‘culture’.

          • AndyPlatt

            You are clearly a committed Islamophobe so you have no credibility whatsoever.

          • Terry Field

            So in your dessicated pc little world anyone who has formed a view is not credible.
            Cretin.
            I respect Islam but consider it incompatible with Judeo-Christian civilisation – Its adherents also agree with me.

          • Shelagh Delves-Broughton

            I disagree……..there are many Muslims that are wonderful people. Its simply the extremists but I will agree that unfortunately many of the nicer muslims have been brainwashed as well and that is what makes them dangerous, not that they are inherently Muslim first.

          • Terry Field

            Yes there are many fine Muslims. Your last sentence is the key, however, and chimes precisely with a comment from a good moslem friend of mine, who, in 1975, said that Britain would be insane to accept moslems in any number, since, as he said, as a group, they would never integrate, reject the host culture, work constantly for their own advantage, and reproduce in quantity to force the success of their religion.
            I was a naive young person and this did not register as a threat but I well remember it. He reminds me from time to time, shakes his head and says that there will be violent social breakdown in the not too distant future.
            WHo believes the mosques are other than subversive indoctrination centres?
            WHo believes the ‘moslem community’ has not prepared its young to readily accept the call of the jihad?
            There are educated, civilised non-radical and world aware moslems – you and I both knowthem. But the mass is ignorant of this mindset – they are simply a trojan horse – across Britain’s cities. Pushing for the moslem caliphate – every day, pushing.
            This poison will smash inter-ethnic relationships in Britain across the piece, as the violent and brutish outrages continue.
            You may ‘celebrate’ Blair driving through the animal welfare acts of the early 1950s to allow Halal, but I deplore it.
            All other groups who have come to Britain have brought wonderful contributions, great ‘spice’ to life, and have added their contribution.
            Islam and its adherents have certainly not done so.
            ‘It is simply the extremists’
            That is jus painfully naive – absurdly simplistic and untrue – get a copy of the Koran and read it – cover to cover – then all will become clear.

          • Bob339

            You are so full of shit. Jews control 95% of the media world wide. And 100% of the BBC. The antisemitism proceeds from Semitism.

          • Rabbi Burns

            Haha, you must have “discovered” that through the other 5%, Press TV or Russia Today.

          • Bob339

            No. The Jerusalem Post.

          • Rabbi Burns

            LOL!

          • Agio

            You are such an anemic strand of mucous that it’s truly (and quite unbelievable) that you harbor such hatred toward the Palestinians–what is wrong with you?

          • Amon Duul 3

            You mean traditional anti Muslim attitudes.

          • mikewaller

            Thank you for having the guts to say this. No sane Briton would be supportive of Islamic terrorists, they pose too much of a threat to us. However, no sane Briton can ignore the fact that the Jews, having been treated with unspeakable cruelty in Europe, sought to secure their long-term future by driving the Palestinians from their homeland in order to create the State of Israel. Quite why Zionists think that the Palestinians should just take this on the chin and now sit quietly by as new Israeli settlements take up yet more of their land, is quite beyond us. After all, the Jews themselves waited about 2000 years for their return, the Irish, 800 years to kick out the English and the Kurds about 80 years to expel the crusaders.

            In our eyes people like Melanie Phillips who purport to think that sympathy with the Palestinians is simply antisemitism in a new guise are either self-delusional or take us for bigger fools than we are. I don’t know what the answer is, but assenting to the Israelis smashing the Palestinians every time they dare to fight back sure ain’t going to get my vote. On this and much else I stand with the BBC.

          • david

            well said

          • Airey Belvoir

            Note to BBC Head of News: There are many dramatic video clips available showng volleys of rockets being fired out of Gaza, by day and night ,sirens wailing, interceptor missiles engaging – all great TV but the BBC has used none of it, just footage within Gaza. Why?

          • GreeneGhost

            As you overlook the inconvenient truth that there would be no “Israeli attacks” but for Hamas’ maniacal dedication to the destruction of Israel.

          • tolpuddle1

            Ah, two wrongs make a right !

            The Israelis aren’t automata; they have a choice. They have chosen, like Hamas, only more effectively, to kill civilians.

            And if Netanyahu KO’s Hamas, what then ? A peace deal (which Likud dosen’t want) ? Perpetual war ?

          • Amon Duul 3

            Israel started this round of violence.

          • Agio

            “There they go again.”
            Of course, Israel started this round; you said it, so it must be true (not).
            The truce lasted 2 hours and during that period, one Israeli soldier was captured and two others were reported to have been killed–it was then, and only then, that Israel had to respond.
            Surely, even you can understand that, yes?

        • William_Brown

          Yeah right….of course.
          Jeremy Bowen is actually there on the front line, whereas you, on the other hand are sat on, I suspect, a rather over used swivel chair in front of a Dell computer screen.
          So very brave of you to join in, in such an informed way!

          • Terry Field

            What is so bloody amazing about being there – he is paid as a journalist to do that – it is his partiality that is under discussion

          • global city

            Well, that would seem to cut 99% of us out from 99% of all issues….including you!

        • Terry Field

          no indeed, Bowen is another one the Home Office should deal with whilst he is abroad. The man is a simple traitor to decent values and truthful objectivity.

        • Roger Hudson

          Terrorist is a great word, it describes two Israeli PMs (Begin and Shamir ), doesn’t it.

        • Roger Hudson

          To hear Netanyahu talk about terrorists is laughable, Mossad and his own unit (sayeret matkal) are both the inheritors of Irgun and Lehi.
          To kill someone in Beirut by exploding a car bomb in a busy street as they (Salameh) drove past is simply a terrorist act.

      • Bonkim

        Most will take the side of the underdog against the bully.

        • global city

          Yes. The ‘Jew’ against the millions of Islamic bigots. Caring people WILL always sympathise with the underdog and the object of hate.

        • Damaris Tighe

          Israel’s main offence seems to be that it successfully defends itself. If that’s bullying I’m a rasher of bacon.

          • Jack

            Self-defence is all good, but destroying hospitals and killing Gazan children is not going to help anyone. If you find the bloody mess that was once your child, chances are you’ll be more inclined to violence. The Israeli govt. (not the Israeli people) are armed to the teeth with cutting edge firepower; their enemies are armed with homemade fireworks that kill no one. Fighting Hamas is understandable and totally necessary, but indiscriminate killing is an act of rage, not self-defence.

          • Dan

            The only reason that Hamas’ “homemade fireworks” do not kill anyone is simply because Israeli life is pivoted around defending itself against rocket attacks. The closer you get to the Gaza border, the more bomb shelters that you see, even bus stops are turned into bomb shelters, due to the constant peltering of rockets which are capable of killing people, they just don’t due to Israel’s defence system, including the Iron Dome. That’s exactly what the article was highlighting, how Israel are seen as the ‘bad guys,’ simply because very few Israeli’s have been killed in relation to Gazans. The reason Israel must attack the Hospitals and schools is because that is where Hamas stores its rockets and arsenal. They also give warning in the form of leaflets, texts, warning shots so that people know to leave the area pending a tactical airstrike from the IDF. So no, it’s not an act of rage,

          • Jack

            Israelis are only seen as the bad guys by people who see the world in binary vision, be it anti-semetic imbeciles or just imbeciles. The violence done to Israeli people is horrible, and the difficulty of life there is frightening even from this far away. I’ve only garnered information through documentaries and news and books, and I’m aware that in everything there is some bias, but still the Israeli govt. sound ruthless and behave ruthlessly, and regardless of whether Hamas do, or do not, store their weapons in schools etc, it’s a little hard to stomach when a Channel Four news crew capture an attack on a civilian area, where there seems to be a distinct lack of any warning. Is there not another way for one of the best armed armies to ever exist, to combat one of the worst armed terrorist organizations? I know sending troops in is a risk, but precision bombing is notorious (for good reason) for being rather unprecise.

          • Dan

            Don’t get me wrong, I completely respect your view, I just feel that if it weren’t for the Israelis being ruthless then Hamas would surely take advantage of it and try and complete their group aim of wiping out the Jewish nation, evidence of this being seen just today when, during the UN ceasefire, although the IDF had stopped air strikes, Hamas continued to fire rockets into Israel and target civilian areas. International law also states that, whilst targeting regular civilian houses is illegal, targeting civilian houses which are suspected terrorist bases, which they are, is not illegal.

          • Jack

            Likewise, man. I’m no fan of Hamas, and the depth of anti-semitism that Israeli people face is insane, so ruthlessness isn’t necessarily out of the realm of appropriate behaviour. I’ll be honest – my own investment in this particular argument (of the article) is really quite petty, because it’s mainly boils down to a reaction to the implication that those who feel anger towards the Israeli govt. are somehow against jewish people. I can see how certain attacks on civilian areas are legal, god knows the West unleashed hell at points in WWII, and there is a chance that my view of the Israeli govt. is born to some extent of my inherent distrust of politicians. It’s interesting to hear a calm view from the other side (as it were).

          • Damaris Tighe

            A fair view of the situation.

          • tolpuddle1

            Most people have prejudices; 90% of those who pride themselves on being free from antisemitism, drip with contempt and hatred for Arabs and for Moslems generally.

            And if you imagine that those around the world who hate the Israeli attacks on Gaza do so because they’re anti-Jewish, you’re (a) mistaken, (b) complicit in evil.

            The key issue is this: is it beyond human ingenuity for the Israelis to take on the HAMAS rocket-men without killing large numbers of civilians in the process ?

          • Jack

            I was speaking against the attacks by the Israeli govt. and denying the fact that those who oppose that govt. are necessarily anti-semetic.

          • alexa44

            the Israel gov. represent the Israeli people. It has 90% support for this operation.; If you oppose Israel action than you oppose Israel people not the Israel gov.

          • Terry Field

            Go in – on the ground – they know who these HAMAS people are – sweep the place – and kill them. It will take some time. That is ok – ratcatching is tedious work.

          • tolpuddle1

            Did it work last time ?

          • Martin Newman

            Google and read Colonel Richard Kemp. A totally unbiased analysis

          • alexa44

            Yet those people care nothing about what is happaning in Syria or Iraq. Why?

          • tolpuddle1

            The carnage in Iraq and Syria is being committed by people who are bitterly anti-Western; Sunni Jihadis on one side, Shia allies of Iran and Russia on the other.

            The West in general and the Right in particular, aren’t much bothered by the death and horror generated by two rival gangs of Islamic psychos, over neither of whom do we have traction.

            The Israelis, however, are armed and financed by the USA, are proud of their Western identity and Western politicians often re-assure them of the West’s alliance (even unto body bags, should need arise) with Israel.

            Israeli intransigence (on the land issue) and tough tactics led to the PLO being replaced by the more extreme Hamas; and we are now told that many Israelis are worried that Hamas will in turn be replaced by the even more extreme ISIS.

            The Israelis have cause to be worried; they have a fine tradition of making rods for their own backs, of being incapable of learning from their mistakes.

          • alexa44

            So becaseu the people in Iraq and Syria are being killed by people who are bittely anti western you people think they deserve it?
            All those muslim demonstrating againt Israel? and nothing about ltheir own people in Iraq and Syria.
            Iraq by the way are armed and fininaced by the USA.,
            If Hamas will be replaced by Isis it will have nothing to do with Israel. Because they like Hamas don;t belive in negotiation they belive in Jihad.
            isis is the reslut of msulim fighting muslim Shia against Sunna . As far as Isis are concernd Shia are worse than the Israelei. So they will finished them first and than come for us.
            and than come for Europe . I hope you westernes are ready for it.

          • tolpuddle1

            Hamas versus ISIS is whips versus scorpions. If Israel can’t come to some sort of deal with Hamas, scorpions loom.

            As Israel is the regional superpower, I doubt whether ISIS or other Islamists will “come after it.” As for Europe, it’s becoming Moslem by birth rate (and conversion) anyway, so why should ISIS bother to come after it ?

          • sarah_13

            I can understand your point but having attended university events and observing the hysterical anger and hatred expressed unless one submits to a certain anti-israel narrate and seeing yesterday, just as an example, a middle aged jewish woman assaulted in oxford street by youths shouting “get her”purportedly on a pro-palestinian march and in paris youths shouting “kill the jews” and “slaughter the jews” whilst besieging a synagogue whilst purportedly being on a pro-palestinian march it is difficult not to think jewish people have a point.

          • Jack

            Likewise, man. I’m no fan of Hamas, and the depth of anti-semitism that Israeli people face is insane, so ruthlessness isn’t necessarily out of the realm of appropriate behaviour. I’ll be honest – my own investment in this particular argument (of the article) is really quite petty, because it’s mainly boils down to a reaction to the implication that those who feel anger towards the Israeli govt. are somehow against jewish people. I can see how certain attacks on civilian areas are legal, god knows the West unleashed hell at points in WWII, and there is a chance that my view of the Israeli govt. is born to some extent of my inherent distrust of politicians. It’s interesting to hear a calm view from the other side (as it were).

          • Damaris Tighe

            Not without more ‘collateral damage’ which will attract even more hand-wringing.

          • Sitting Tiger
          • Hegelguy

            Making Arabs pay for German crimes is scurvy justice.
            As for Israel – how long can it last? When the rich and the professionals move to less stressed lands it will dwindle away.

          • alexa44

            Israel was created as a result of the leage of nation resolution in 1922 not because of ww2. so far Israel is growing so you have nothing to worry . WE are here to stay.

          • Hegelguy

            If there is any people anywhere who would accept the loss of their country because some aliens come along saying they were the
            majority there a few thousand years ago, let me know of them.

            Americans would not accept it. Canadians wouldn’t. No-one would. So expecting the Palestinians to is absurd.

            The only justification there can be for a Jewish state has to be the extraordinary persecution Jews suffered in Europe – the Holocaust. But that was the work of Germans. So Germans should have paid the territorial price for a Jewish state. That would have made sense. Unfortunately, the issue came up in the 1940s when the world was still dominated by a handful of European powers and the US, and they took a route that was convenient for them: making luckless Arabs pay the price for the Jewish state, not Germans.

            Hence the present position. It is clear the Arabs have played their cards very poorly. Instead of focusing on the simple and obvious injustice of their being made to pay for German crimes they have veered off into pan-Arabism and Islamist extremism which win them little effective world support. All the same the basic justice of the case is on their side.

            It is important for Israelis to recognise that the Holocaust was not the work of the Arabs but of the Germans and that Arab anger over being made to pay the price for a Jewish state is well justified. Recognising this would help get a settlement of the issue because Israelis will see that the Arabs have a strong case and their anger is understandable. Using Arabs as a scapegoat for Germans must end.

          • alexa44

            YOu are quiet right but as the arabs who didn;t call themselves palesitnians until 1964 didn;t have a country here you comment is irellevant.
            Most of those arabs immigrated from arab countries.
            Ask Hamas they admit that half of them are egtyptian and halof Saudis
            51 mebers of the leage of nation recoginze in 1922 that there was no such contry when they voted for the creation of a jewish state in Palestine and form the Mandate to carry this decision
            So again nothing to do with the holocaust

          • ilana

            Hamas launch rockets from hospitals, schools and residential areas. What government would do that if it valued its people’s lives. How can they afford so many rockets and underground tunnels and yet not afford any bomb shelters. Israel regrets every civilian death but you too would retaliate if you were in the same situation. The British commanding officer who ran the Afghan campaign stated that he had never seen an army try as hard as the Israelis to avoid civilian casualties. Even us British don’t try that hard.

          • Martin Newman

            Col Richard Kemp is a fine and honourable officer and totally unbiased. I recommend that anyone who has doubts google his name and read his analysis described above….

          • tolpuddle1

            But it’s the Israelis who have destroyed any hope of peace in the region, by their systematic and relentless seizure of formerly Arab land.

            Do they expect to be popular with the Arabs in consequence ? Do they expect peace to be possible in the face of their unjust land-grab ? Fools if they do.

            No; the Israelis claim to want peace, but refuse to do anything that might bring it about. So Israel continues to live on the edge of the volcano and will stay there.

            Among the more sinister elements of the Israel lobby, there is a fervent hope that the West will also find itself on the edge of the volcano and a determined wish that this can be brought about, so that the West will be forced to march arm-in-arm with the Israelis.

            No chance of this happening of course, not least because the West is quite rapidly ceasing to be inhabited by Western people ! And in any case, the public aren’t fools – if things go pear-shaped in the world as a whole, the West and the world will place the principal blame where it belongs – on hard-line Israelis and their supporters.

          • Dan

            When you say that Israeli’s claim to want peace but do nothing about it, I cast my mind back to earlier this week, twice, once when Egypt proposed a ceasefire, accepted by Israel, yet denied by Hamas, and a second incident where, during the UN ceasefire, Israel had stopped all military activity against Gaza, yet 60 rockets were fired from Gaza into Israel. Israel is the only democracy in the middle-east,, they are the only country which allow people of other religions, notably Muslims and Arabs, among others, to live and buy property in the country and to vote and have equal rights, if that’s not hinting for peace, I don’t know what is. When attacking terrorist sites in Gaza, it is doing so just to protect its citizen’s, whether Jewish, Arab, Christian, Muslim.

          • Roger Hudson

            Cast your mind back to last week? Cast your mind back to the Balfour Declaration ,1920 Mandate and the nonsense that ensued .

          • alexa44

            Israel has made peace with Egypt and with Jordan and gave land for it. Israel got out of Gaza hoping they will use the opportunity to develp Gaza sadly they used it as a launch pad for rockets days after Israel left.
            So far Israel have given land for peace. What have the arab gave for peace>? terror and more terror.

          • tolpuddle1

            Jordan is caught in the cross-fire and has no choice but peace. Military despots running Egypt – Sadat, Mubarak, now Sisi – have been happy to go easy on Israel in return for Israeli and Western favours.

            But what have the Palestinians got from all this ? Zilch, except a miserable coastal strip at Gaza, an overcrowded hell-hole that the late Ariel Sharon threw to them as a sop.

          • alexa44

            LOL such fine excuses for Egypt and Jordan.
            Maybe they should ask themselves why the result of the Oslo accord were sucide bombing. Not very peaceful.
            I realy don;t understand don;t you think Israel should have left Gaza?
            They could have developed this strip .
            After leaving Gaza Israel signed an Agreement on Movement and Access with the PA which gave the Palestinians control over their own borders for the first time in history, allowed for imports and exports, and even approved construction of a seaport and discussions on an airport.
            Until Hamas threw out the PA

          • tolpuddle1

            Gaza has for some time now been in a state of siege, which weighs heavily on ordinary Gazans.

            Though this state of siege reflects badly on Hamas, it reflects badly on Israel too, which does after all have some slight connection with it.

          • Roger Hudson

            British defence procurement ministers should be looking at that Iron Dome system, what i saw at the olympics was a joke.

          • thomasaikenhead

            roger,

            What you saw at the Olympics was poetical theatre, just like the tanks that appeared at Heathrow a few years ago, it was not related to an appropriate military activity, it was just for show.

            In fact there was no credible terrorist threat to the London 2012 Olympics at all.

          • Marina Martsinkevich

            For all those who say these are just “home-made fireworks” I wish they experienced them by themselves.

          • Jack

            I regret saying that, and apologize for it. I don’t mean to trivialize genuine and continuing terrorism. I was irritated by the article and behaved like a child.

          • Marina Martsinkevich

            Your apologies accepted. Good luck 🙂

          • sarah_13

            It shows decency and courage to apologise in the way you have.

          • tolpuddle1

            And one can only wish that those who excuse the Israeli bombardment of Gaza could experience that for themselves.

          • Damaris Tighe

            It’s not indiscriminate. The Israeli weapons are targeted by computers but they’re never going to be 100% accurate in a heavily built up area. The only alternative is for Israel to do nothing at all. This will only encourage Hamas, a group of genocidal intent, to do far worse. Already over 1,300 rockets have been fired at Israel. A nation state’s first duty is to its own citizens, not to the citizens of a hostile entity. It shouldn’t be necessary to tell anyone this, but we Europeans have lost the will to defend ourselves & can’t understand it when we see other nations putting their own citizens first.

          • tolpuddle1

            The Israeli

          • Roger Hudson

            When I see the horde of enraged Palestinian young men at a Gaza funeral i see Israel has a big future demographic problem.

          • alexa44

            Israel is not sitting in Gaza

          • alexa44

            YO mean those Palestianin who killed 1000 Israelis in suicde attacks all over Israel?

          • tolpuddle1

            The suicide attackers are by definition dead, and no longer in the equation. The Palestinians killed in the Intifadas and since, have been stone-throwers, not terrorists. Unless adolescent Palestinians shouting and throwing stones at well-armoured and well-armed Israeli military personnel, is terrorism.

          • alexa44

            They are no longer in the equation not for lack of trying
            YOu mean stone throwers who already killed few and injured many. Of course they are just peace loving people.

          • Weaver

            You throw a stone at a man with a gun, you can’t compain about a 5.56mm coming back at you.

            Most people who don’t know weaponry have no idea how lethal stones are; they think its “harmless”. A trained man could kill you at 50 yards with a homemade sling, with a respectable chance of success. Even body armour and helmet will leave you vulnerable to death or broken bones.

          • tolpuddle1

            If, in getting on a crowded train, I gave a man a brutal shove, I would nonetheless feel justly aggrieved if he knifed me in return.

            Mercifully, Israeli troops are well-armoured; their heavy-handed response to Palestinian protestors is rooted only partly in fear or hurt – it’s rooted partly also in the Western contempt for non-westerners that lingers on in the West (nowhere more so than in large swathes of American and Israeli society), but mainly from militarism.

            Israel became a military society initially from necessity, as Germany first became militarised from its necessary self-defence against Napoleon.

            But militarism is habit-forming, a deeply and persistently corrupting drug. Israel has become a militarist society where – as in the Germany of Bismarck and Kaiser Bill – many people pride themselves on their “toughness” (real or imagined) and their brutality of thought and action.

          • Weaver

            A stone from a sling is more than a shove. It is a lethal weapon with equivalent KE to a bullet at close range. You show your ignorance of weaponry and killing.

            The rest of your insults, I fear, rather reveal your own limitations.

            .

          • tolpuddle1

            I am ignorant of weaponry and killing; but I’m a man of peace, not one of those lunatics, what do they call them – Hamraelis ? Isramas ? – out in the Middle East.

          • Weaver

            A man may study war and wish for peace, as a Doctor may study disease and work for health.

          • ChavahG

            You might have it backwards. People who are inclined to violence more often find their child…

          • Zach Kessin

            Some of those “Homemade Fireworks” have a range of 160km and can carry 145kg of high explosives. So yes if they hit a building they could and would kill. That they haven’t is mostly due to the fact that Israel has about the best civil defense system in the world.

            I suppose you would like it better if a rocket hit a kindergarden in Israel and killed 25 Israeli children?

          • alexa44

            Hospitals which Hamas was using to hide its rockets. Israeli gov. is the Israeli people . 90% of us supprot the goverment in this conflict. israeli army is the Israeli people .
            if those home eade firework kill no one why are they firing on Israel knowing Israel will retaliate.

          • Weaver

            I don’t think you have any idea what “indiscriminate killing” looks like.

            If I had the IDFs resources and wanted to engage in “indiscrimate killing”…it would go something like this.

            Firstly, the ports would be destroyed by the IAF. Power and water would be shut down. Warehouses and food distribution points would be next. I’d flatten the hospital of course, but it wouldn’t really make any difference to what I’d do next. I’d leave the comms network intact because of its ELINT potential.

            Meanwhile, gunships would seal the Egyptian border; it’s a nice clear fire zone….or I could do it with UAVs and artillery if I felt lazy.

            I’d start to work my way through Gaza, killing as I went.
            Most of the heavy structures would be demolished by 2,00lb bombs, but for the lighter steel framed buildings 155mm HE artillery or MLRS will do (and is cheaper and more readily available). Gaza is mostly concrete so doesn’t burn well, and is quite resilient to bombardment but given the force available I could reduce the best part of a square km to rubble each day. People in basement shelters would be buried or suffiocated by sufficiently delayed fuses. Not that it matters.

            I could kill perhaps 10,000 Palestinians in the first day, working off standard models for bombarding that sort of area with that weight of firepower and population density. Then the same the next. Then the same the day after. And a bit fewer the day after that as I exhaust my high density targets. But then the real death can begin – by day 7 local food stocks will be exhausted and starvation will start to set in (they won’t be able to bring enough in through the tunnels). The more communicable diseases should start to break out about this time too – they are very effective killers when combined with starvation.

            I expect the population to rush the borders about now. You’ve probably heard of the Somme. It would be like that, but worse, because the MMG density would be higher and there’s prepared free fire zones against what would be (mostly) hapless civilians. Quite a few will swim for it, but people in waterare pretty easy to pick off from patrol craft; still its probably the best Palestinian option at this stage. The tunnels will be choked evacuating the lucky few, another reason why they won’t be bringing food in.

            After about a fortnight things will quieten done. I’ll have destroyed most of the main conurbation by now, smashed the utilities, food, communications and transportation systems, but many smaller residential structures will still be standing. There will be pockets of survivors, not all Hamas, with some stocks of food or weapons. I can wait another week or so for starvation and disease to attrit them down a bit more, then I’ll send in the ground forces to “tidy up”. Most of the difficulty in the subsequent operation will be navigating / clearning the rubble in the destroyed streets rather than armed resistance.

            And that is what real “indiscriminate” killing would look like.

          • rtj1211

            It also successfully practices ‘salami slicing’ of traditional palestinian lands over a few decades.

            But don’t let that get in the way of your analysis.

            Israel has no intention of allowing a Palestinian State based on the Oslo Accord and that is where the problem resides.

          • Damaris Tighe

            They tried Oslo. It failed. It ended in body parts on the streets of Tel Aviv, Jerusalem & Haifa.

          • alexa44

            Palestinin have no intetnaion of following the Oslo accord they proved that by killing hundrads Israeli insuicde attacks after it was sign.

          • Weaver

            Umm…Oslo was exactly the Israeli offer. Arafat turned it down.

          • Janet Girsman

            All these Israel haters and boycotters should turn off their computers as much of the technology has come from Israeli companies and scientists.

          • Bonkim

            Israel’s main offence is occupying Palestine through terror and founding the State of Israel in 1947 aided and abetted by the US and Britain who wanted to atone for their historic persecution of the Jews. Israel is an extension of the borderless Jewish State – the territory helped and protected from across the ocean..

        • Mike

          The real bully is Hamas who use a Human Shield unlike Israels Iron Shield.

          • Bonkim

            I am already bleeding for the poor and oppressed Israelis.

        • Terry Field

          The underdog is Israel – the bully is the large, barbaric, evil Arab World with its death-loving religion. Everyone killed in P is a ‘Martyr’- what garbage.

          • Hegelguy

            Arabs end up paying for German crimes against Jews. Where is the justice in that?

          • Terry Field

            No they do not.
            Certainly the Jews decided to be strong and no longer murdered victims. Our ancestors are responsible for that.
            Had they wished a rational world and a good life the Palestinians and the other surrounding states could have settled with Israel many years ago and their peoples would have an entirely different present. Anti-semitic commentary sties to obscure this, but it fails, since truth ha a clarity that is not to be occluded.

          • alexa44

            Israel wasn;t created becasue of the holocuast it was created as a result of 1922 leage of nation resolution.

          • AndyPlatt

            Israel the nuclear power, 4th largest military power in the world, responsible for the deaths of nearly 2m Palestinians is the underdog?

            Palestinians are one of the Semitic peoples too. Israel is the second most anti-semitic entity in history.

          • Terry Field

            I would not want you teaching history and contemporary politics to anyone whose mind I valued.

          • AndyPlatt

            I don’t think I’d like to meet anybody whose mind you valued.

          • Bonkim

            Utter tosh – the Arabs are a motley brainless lot – if they united and used some brains – Israel would not have a chance – good for Israel the Arabs area disunited wailing and breast-beating bunch of mindless nomads.

          • Terry Field

            Ah – so you wait for the day when the ‘brainless’ Arabs unite, function sensibly, and destroy Israel and slaughter the Jews – and you claim not to be an anti-Jewish anti-semite!!!!

          • Bonkim

            Israel won’t remain strong for ever or protected by the US and Britain at the UN. Foolish to assume things will be great forever for anyone. Every dog has his day and when it comes it will be nasty.

          • Terry Field

            Things change, nothing stays the same. You are plainly a racist and salivating at future misery is bad taste.

          • Bonkim

            Regrettably everything in nature follows its lifecycle – and yes any tyrant getting his come-uppance will be greeted with glee by many. That is the nature of mankind.

      • rtj1211

        Israel is certainly not MY ally. There has never been a meaningful election, vote, referendum, where the British PEOPLE have mandated the Foreign Office to call Israel ‘our ally’. I do not consider Judaism to be a superior religion and I do not consider orthodox Judaism to be free of attitudes which, if concerning black people, would be called racism. No worse than Arabs, but still no very admirable.

        More to the point is that the Americans tell us that they are our ally and Mossad will do who knows what to us if we don’t agree. That is not the basis for a true alliance……

        By saying what I have said does not imply that I consider it acceptable for any Arabs to initiate violence against Israelis in any way whatever. I have no time for Iran threatening to wipe Israel out. I consider Israelis to have the right to live in peace WITHIN THEIR OWN BORDERS. I do not consider them to have the right to more than that.

        However, until people like you are capable (not the word capable, not inclined) of considering it possible to oppose Israel in any way whatever, Britain will not have a mature position where foreign policy about Israel is concerned.

        • Roger Hudson

          Britain has, or should have, some guilt over the way it totally mishandled the region since the Great War.
          The League Mandate ,even wanting it, was one of many strategic errors Britain made at the end of the Great war.

        • sarah_13

          Fortunately Israel works closely with our forces and anti-terrorism and keep you and I safe in our bed, not only that but their practices and technology keeps our troops safe. They are saving british lives everyday, fortunately they are not expecting any thanks as they have more important things to worry about.

          • Martin Newman

            They produce some of the very best technology and intelligence which we Brits do have access to. If anyone is so against Israel and want to boycott and divest they shouldn’t really be using their computer or mobile phone.

          • thomasaikenhead

            Martin Newman,

            Your claims that Israel invented the computer and mobile phone are laughable.

            Computers were being used in the UK before Israel even existed!

            As for the idea that Israel has ‘the very best intelligence’, Mossad was not even aware that Iran and the US held secret talks in Oman for a year, talks that led to the P5+1 engagement with Iran!

            This from a country that constantly talks of an existential threat from Iran but its intelligence and security agencies were so taken in by Operation Desert Schmooze that they missed the secret talks in Oman that lasted a year?

          • Martin Newman

            I never said that Israel invented the computer so don’t put words into my mouth. If you have intel you have Israeli technology. if you have a modern mobile technology. Fact. I’m not saying that Israel Int always gets it right. It has some of the best (not the best) and it shares it. I have no intention of explaining my reasons for saying that on this site.

          • thomasaikenhead

            sarah13,

            There is no evidence that Israel has a close working relationship with the UK and has contributed to British safety or security.

            In fact quite the opposite is true, Israel has repeatedly used false British documents to provide cover stories for its agents who commit murder and have being doing so for decades.

            When Margaret Thatcher was in office an incompetent ISraeli agent in London left a collection of forged British documents in a telephone box which caused a massive diplomatic row with the UK.

            More recently, Israel used forged documents based on details taken from British nationals to participate in the murder in Dubai of Mahmoud al-Mabouh.

            After a prolonged period of silence and then denial, the Head of Mossad was forced to issue an apology for the actions of Israel.

            When British subjects/citizens have died in strange circumstances, Israel has gone to great lengths to conceal the truth and obstruct justice, as the events surrounding the murder of Tom Hurndall, to name just one, make very clear.

            Hardly the actions of a trusted ally.

          • sarah_13

            Wrong, none of what you say has anything to do with my point. All security services have similar stories including the armerican in respect of the british and vice versa.

            If you don’t believe me as Colonel Richard Kemp who was head of British forces in afghanistan and following that involved in counterterrorism. I suspect he knows more about it than we do and he has the highest regard for them, their intelligence and the help they have given him personally.

          • thomasaikenhead

            Sarah13,

            Actually the comment I made has EVERYTHING to do with your comment and the point that you made!

            In recent years details have merged about the facts of various Mossad and Shin Bet operations that make clear the incompetence and negligence that have come to be their trademark!

            Far from being the feared entities that their PR tried to create, they are nothing more than the Keystone Kops!

            Time after time their gaffes, blunders and incompetence have revealed their true nature.

            Just look at the recent assassination in Bdubai, EVERY member of the team was photographed and had their cover story blown, many had fake ID taken from their ‘allies’, one of th cretins involved even continued to use this fake ID and was dumbfounded to be arrested in Poland!

            In an utterly humiliating exercise, the German intelligence services had to extricate him and ship him home to Israel!

            In yet another example, ‘Prisoner X’ revealed all the names and identities of all Israeli spies in Lebanon who were either executed or publicly tried and found guilty of treason!

        • Weaver

          Israel has never threatened this nation, or our interests. We trade profitably. I can’t say the same for Hamas and Fatah.

          In the real world, we have a choice between imperfect angels and perfect devils.

        • Kenneth O’Keeffe

          Foreign relations are the preserve of the Executive ie. the government. You know what each party’s view on Israel is when you vote for one or other of them at the election. Therefore, to state that you have never had a say on policy is disingenuous. Sure, it’s just one policy among thousands of others but that’s democracy! The idea of having a referendum etc on every minute aspect of government policy would of course be entirely unworkable. You vote in a party on the basis of its overall policies generally more than any particular single policy (this is one reason why single policy candidates or parties tend to do badly in general elections but may do better at local elections, for example)

      • James Lovelace

        “For them the war is a 50/50 thing, where to take a side would be to make an unfair value judgement.”

        The BBC fought tooth and nail to stop its own internal Balen report on anti-Israeli bias from being published. It has never seen the light of day. You can be sure if it exonerated the BBC, it would have been published on the BBC website.

        The BBC needs to be banned.

      • tolpuddle1

        HAMAS was democratically voted into power by the people of Gaza.

        If you’re tempted to use that as an excuse for Israel’s butchery of civilians in Gaza, ask yourself this – if you were a Palestinian, how friendly would you feel towards Israel ?

        • will91

          Hamas aren’t democratic, they slaughtered their political opponents once they came to power and have refused to hold a re-election since.

        • sarah_13

          They intimidated their way to power and have only ever had one election, they then murdered the opposition and proceeded to institute a supremacist charter not fit for any modern state.

          Your point about if I were a palestinian is part of the on going cycle of hate. There are plestinians in the west bank who are as we speak working with jewish organisations for peace despite the inculcation of hatred by the press. This is not the case in gaza because of the inculcation of hatred which starts in children so young that it becomes a pathology.

          I hope you try to look at the reality of the situation and your defence of the indefensible because hamas are the problem. Islamism’s only end is violence and death.

          • Hegelguy

            Pause and consider for a moment whether it can be just to make Arabs pay for what happened to Jews in Europe.

          • alexa44

            You keep repeating this lie. Israel wasn;t created because of the holocaust it was created as a result of the leage of nation resolution in 1922

          • AndyPlatt

            It was actually created via a UN resolution in 1948.

          • alexa44

            Not true. The British mandate to Palestine was created in order to carry out the leage of nation resolution concerning building a Jewish home for the Jewish people in Palestine.That was in 1922.
            British failed misreably and came to the UN in 1947 saying they give up .That was how the parition plan came about. UN resolution was a violation of the leage of nation resolution as we can see in article 80 of the UN charter

          • AndyPlatt

            Like you say, the British ‘failed miserably’ and it’s not being picky to point out that means it wasn’t created at all. The INTENTION to create a Jewish homeland IN Palestine was stated in 1922, that’s not the same as actually created.

            Furthermore, the intention to create a Jewish homeland in Palestine is not the same as giving Jews a sovereign nation state comprising ALL of Palestine.

            Lastly, it can’t be said that the UN partition plan is in ‘violation’ of LoN anything. The UN replaced the LoN, its resolutions, where conflicting, replaced those of the LoN. That’s how law works.

          • alexa44

            “The Mandatory shall be responsible for placing the country [ Palestine] under such political, administrative and economic conditions as will secure the establishment of the Jewish National Home, as laid down in the preamble, and the development of self-governing institutions, and also for safeguarding the civil and religious rights of all the inhabitants of Palestine, irrespective of race and religion.

            “… the mandate implicitly denies Arab claims to national political rights in the area in favor of the Jews; the mandated territory was in effect reserved to the Jewish people for their self-determination and political development, in acknowledgment of the historic connection of the Jewish people to the land

            ‘A trust’ – as in Article 80 of the UN Charter – does not end because the trustee dies … the Jewish right of settlement in the whole of western Palestine – the area west of the Jordan – survived the British withdrawal in 1948. … They are parts of the mandate territory, now legally occupied by Israel with the consent of the Security Council

          • AndyPlatt

            The mandate itself was not a territory or a binding agreement for one, it was a legal instrument endowing Britain with the responsibility of administering that part of the former Ottoman empire. It was always recognised that it could be changed by a new treaty, amongst other things.

            It was also granted “for the purpose of giving effect to the provisions of Article 22 of the Covenant of the League of Nations” which meant administering the former Ottoman areas “…until such time as they are able to stand alone.”

            The mandate included establishing a Jewish homeland IN Palestine (as I said, in no way guaranteeing all of it) “…it being clearly understood that nothing should be done which might
            prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish
            communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by
            Jews in any other country.” An early draft was reject specifically because it appeared to acknowledge a legal claim by Jewish people on the land. Your second paragraph is a rather fanciful interpretation of the intention behind the mandate.

            Furthermore, please explain how anything post 1948 could be said to comply with “…it being clearly understood that nothing should be done which might
            prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish
            communities in Palestine…”

            There simply was no Jewish right to settlement in Israel. The mandate included an intention to set one up but, as we’ve agreed the British failed to carry out the mandate so responsibility passed to the UN. As the new international lawmaking body, anything decided by the UN replaces anything gone before.

          • alexa44

            HOwever articel 80 of the UN charter says other wise.

            There simply was no Jewish right to settlement in Israel. ? . Show me where it says so.,

            Article 2 of the document clearly speaks of the Mandatory as being:

            “… responsible for placing the country under such political, administrative and economic conditions as will secure the establishment of the Jewish national home.”

            The Palestine Royal Report highlights additional differences between the Mandates:

            “Unquestionably, however, the primary purpose of the Mandate, as expressed in its preamble and its articles, is to promote the establishment of the Jewish National Home.

            “… Articles 4, 6 and 11 provide for the recognition of a Jewish Agency ‘as a public body for the purpose of advising and co-operating with the Administration’ on matters affecting Jewish interests. No such body is envisaged for dealing with Arab interests.43

            “… But Palestine was different from the other ex-Turkish provinces. It was, indeed, unique both as the Holy Land of three world-religions and as the old historic national home of the Jews. The Arabs had lived in it for centuries, but they had long ceased to rule it, and in view of its peculiar character they could not now claim to possess it in the same way as they could claim possession of Syria or Iraq

            Or the rights and political status enjoyed by
            Jews in any other country?
            you explain that and I will explain this:
            how anything post 1948 could be said to comply with….

          • tolpuddle1

            I haven’t defended Hamas; read my posts. I’ve merely attacked the notion that the Netanyahu government and its supporters (in Israel and the West) are better.

            The wail by Israel’s supporters: “But Israel is acting in self-defence !” chooses to ignore the truth; that Israeli settlements – which are armed robbery at Palestinian expense – are the root of the problem and anything but defensive !

            There are people of goodwill on both sides, though in both cases far too few. They include neither gang mentioned above.

            Local initiatives are now the only hope for peace, but it will still need a miracle.

          • sarah_13

            By your complete silence in respect of their nature, their behaviour and their hateful led nihilistic charter you do.

            Your assertion that netanyhu is worse is just that an assertion. Just saying it so does not make it so. Israel has an elected government, it is accountable, it has a very liberal a world renowned supreme court that holds its government to account, it has as many have testified including Col Richard Kemp taken great care to not kill civilians but being responsible as a government for the protection of its own people and therefore cannot just ignore the thousands of rockets landing in israel, one which killed a bedounin today and a child. Israel is not the same “the idf has done more to protect the rights of civilians than any other army in the history war fare.” Colonel Richard Kemp referring to operation cast lead. Israel is in a horrible position. It has a strip occupied by a terrorist organisation who uses the strip to attack israel. A strip that is wholly governed by hamas who intimidated their way to power in the one election they have ever had, killed the opposition, instituted a charter (read it it is a supremacist charter) which is not fit for the governance of any modern state and proceeded to attack israel with rockets. Israel did not start out attacking gaza until its islamist government attacked it with rockets and used terrorist strategies like todays donkey bomb. Hamas’s sunni islamist brothers are today as we speak telling christians to convert to die in iraq. These are the facts. Hamas should be an abomination to any decent human being.

            In respect of your settlements points does not answer the present position even if you were right. West bank is not gaza and israel is not bombing the west bank. There are no settlements in gaza it is entirely government by hamas. In respect of the west bank in 1993 arafat refused the agreement, one that virtually all arab states was in agreement with, he returned home to his bank account of £1billion pounds of his supporters money and incited violence. When there is a partner with authority israel can risk the west bank security, Abbas has little authority and has recently joined with hamas in the west bank and immediately after the joint agreement 3 israeli boys were murdered. The prospect of rockets coming from the West bank as well as gaza would be a risk no sovereign state can take. Howeve this is not the point of what is happening in gaza, gaza is not occupied, gaza is run by terrorists, islamist supremacist terrorists called Hamas whose Sunni brothers are running amok in iraq and respect no minorities and care nothing for anyone but their ideology and hate.

            I know whose values I will support.

          • tolpuddle1

            You launch a powerful denunciation of Hamas, but as I’m not defending or carrying a torch for Hamas (not even within my own mind), it is of little or no interest to me.

            What you say of the ghastly Arafat is true; it’s one of the reasons Hamas was elected.

            I applaud Israel’s democracy; but it means that those who vote for brutal politicians like Netanyahu, share in his guilt, his shedding of innocent blood (from which no special pleading can absolve them) and his total incapacity to steer towards any conceivable peace, his determination to continue with the same tried and failed and nihilistic policies.

          • sarah_13

            IT may not interest you but your silence on hamas is the problem. You earlier stated hamas were democratically elected as if there were some equivalence between them and the israeli government. The fact of an election is about as far as the similarity goes. They intimidated their way to power and murdered their opponents and created a charter glorifying death. This is nihilism.

            Nothing Netanyahu has done comes anywhere close to this. He does not require special pleading there are internal mechanisms within israel that work and will hold him to account as will the people should that fail. However is is genuinely democratically elected with more legitimacy arguably than our prime minister given the proportional representation in israel.

            As I have mentioned according to Colonel Richard Kemp “the IDF did more to protect the rights of civilians than any other army in the history of warfare” referring to operation cast lead. What do you suggest? How to get security in the west bank? How to find a genuine partner? Given that in 2005 they dragged every jew out of gaza in good faith? I don’t know the answer but joining with those whose values don’t even lick the boots of israel’s is not the answer. And further by attacking israel and remaining silent on hamas, on the corruption in the Fatah on the fact that palestine has had 25 times the amount of money of the marshall plan and created nothing, that the EU has found a £2Billion deficit in the accounts in a recent audit, but Abbas multimillion bank account keeps growing, that they inculcate hatred in the west bank in their people and through their press etc etc by remaining silent on all of this you infantalise the palestinians and their cause and guarantee that no solution will ever be found.

          • tolpuddle1

            When I saw the article on Friday, I expected the posts in response to be a dogfight between Israel and Hamas supporters, and was looking forward to vigorous debate with the wilder supporters of both.

            I soon found that there were no Hamas supporters to take issue with, so directed my fire at some of the pro-Israeli posts, those annoying me most coming not from people anxious for the Israelis, but from knee-jerk Rightists as objectionable as their Leftist “anti-Zionist” sparring partners.

          • Weaver

            What’s your plan then? Exactly?

            Seriously, spell out exactly what land you want to hand over, what degree of security assurances you want, level of cross-access, and position on the “right of return”.

            Do all that. And then ask yourself, honestly, “would Hamas and Fatah accept this”?

          • tolpuddle1

            I have no plan whatever, since I’m not a politician.

            The troubles in Northern Ireland began to ease, when the Catholics began to hope for more from a British / American peace deal than from Sinn Fein. This drift towards peace forced the para-militaries to tag along behind.

            For such a thing to happen in the Middle East would require a convincing peace agreement to be sketched out by the Americans.

            Sadly, no chance of such a thing happening; partly because of the Israel lobby in USA, but mainly because of the wickedness that has taken over the American mind since the 1970’s – a Nietzsche-style worship of power, injustice and successful brutality.

            The Americans have the greatest guilt in the Middle East and the most blood on their hands, because unlike the Palestinians (driven mad by misfortune and Islamism) or the Israelis (driven mad by Alexander Romanov II, then Adolph Nepomuk Hitler), the Americans are sane.

          • Weaver

            You can’t just say “A convincing agreement to be sketched out by the Americans”. That’s pure handwaving.

            Seriously, you have to spell it out. Borders, force levels, water rights, security guarantees, the right of return, peacekeeping forces etc. The agreement has to be :

            1) Acceptable to Israel
            2) Acceptable to Hamas / Fatah, as appropriate
            3) Credible for all parties to implement without cheating the other.

            Otherwise it’s just magical thinking. I teach negotiation strategy as a sideline to international relations students. People who just say “ah – we shall use diplomacy to solve the problem with a convincing peace agreeement” might as well say “we shall use magic to solve the problem”.

            You really do have so say what you want and what you are prepared to give in return. Note it is entirely possible that there may be NO agreement possible in current circumstances that meets the above criteria.

          • tolpuddle1

            So hope is handwaving, magical thinking ?

            As for the details, I leave it to the experts.

            You might as well say it’s magical thinking to drive a car without being an expert auto mechanic.

          • Weaver

            YES. “Hope” is handwaving and magical thinking in this context. I have to fail people who put down that answer. Certainly it gets people moved out to another team, before they endanger themselves, others or the work.

            Your automechanic analogy is flawed. Magical thinking is when you posit a chain of causal relationships without a prima facie acheivable link between them. It would be magical thinking to say I could repair a car (useless with machines here), but not magical thinking to say I could drive a car without being an automechanic. Do you see the difference?

          • tolpuddle1

            Nero fiddled while Rome burned.

            You spew jargon while the Middle East burns.

          • Weaver

            Now you’re just being abusive. If you don’t understand, ask for an explanation. Assume I’m acting in good faith.

        • alexa44

          Better ask the people of Gaza how they feel about Hamas when they tell them that if they leave their houses becaseu of Israeli warning Hamas will deal with them after this conflict end.

      • Daidragon

        In what way is Israel our ally?

      • Amon Duul 3

        Israel is NOT our ally.

      • Charles Hammond Jr

        This isn’t relativism. It’s outright delusion.

        The world has gone mad.

    • Bonkim

      Hamas may be brainless but killing Palestinians by the score is little different from Nazi collective punishment. Israel is an occupier – first and continues to expand on land owned by Palestinians – I suppsoe you can call it modern protection racket – I take the land or we blow you up.

      • Damaris Tighe

        Bonkim, Israel withdrew from Gaza several years ago. There are no Israelis left there. None. Nada.

        • Bonkim

          How generous vacating an overcrowded prison strip – They are still expanding on Palestinian territories.

      • mandelson

        Golly Israel should be the size of Siberial by now what with all that land it supposedly stole. Are you also campaigning for the Sudetenland Germans to get their homeland back? Thought not.

        • Damaris Tighe

          The West conveniently forgets that one of Germany’s penalties for losing the war was it had to give up territory that had fallen to the victors, & millions of Germans had to move from Poland & the Sudetenland to Germany proper. Up until Israel’s victory in a defensive war in 1967, that’s what was expected to happen when invading nations lost a war.

          • Hegelguy

            None of these had to do with the Holocaust, which was a German crime and the reason why the idea of a Jewish state received wide international sanction after Hitler. If anyone was to give up land for the setting up a Jewish state it should have been the nation responsible for the Holocaust, not the Arabs.
            This is only a matter of the most elementary justice.

        • James Lovelace

          “Sudetenland Germans”

          Or the removal of Turkish occupation from Cyprus.

          The different standards by which Israel is judged are ample proof of jew-hatred.

          • Mirrorballman

            Being branded a terrorist by Israel is the equivalent of being accused of ageism by Harold Shipman

          • James Lovelace

            “Being branded a terrorist by Israel is the equivalent of being accused of ageism by Harold Shipman”

            And no doubt Adolf Hitler would be proud of you.

          • Hegelguy

            I am glad you mentioned Hitler. You are in danger of forgetting that the Holocaust was HIS fault, not that of the Arabs. If there was to be a Jewish state it should have been in Germany, not Palestine.

          • Martin Newman

            What? Germany? Are you completely deranged or is that just hatred of Jews?

          • Hegelguy

            If anyone was to give up land for the setting up a Jewish state it should have been the nation responsible for the Holocaust, not the Arabs.

            It is very important for Jews and Israel to recognise that the Arabs are not responsible for the European persecutions of Jews which are the primary justification for setting up a Jewish state. If they clearly recongnise that Palenstinian anger over being made to pay for German and European crimes against Jews is well justified the Israelis would be able to make allowance for Palestinian anger and would be more likely to look to means to defuse it and to make a fair deal with them. As it is they too easily forget who their real enemy has been and use the Arabs as a scapegoat for the German crimes against them. It is a disturbing and appalling displacement of anger. Germans killed Jews and the Arabs had to lose land for it.

          • Mirrorballman

            “And no doubt Adolf Hitler would be proud of you”

            What childish nonsense.

          • James Lovelace

            I turned your abuse back on you:

            “Being branded a terrorist by Israel is the equivalent of being accused of ageism by Harold Shipman”

            You didn’t like it. Next time, try making a grown-up comment yourself, jew hater.

          • Mirrorballman

            No you didn’t! You accused me of being Anti-Semitic without any evidence at all.

            You do no service to the people of Israel with such pathetic claims. To be anti-Israeli government does not make one anti-Semitic you thoughtless racist moron. 🙂

      • Mike

        Put this into perspective.

        Israel has killed a few palestinians unfortunately through collateral damage after being provoked by Hamas. In Syria, Iraq & Libya, tens of thousands of Muslims have been killed by other Muslims but I guess thats alriight in your book. Add in the countless Christians still being killed by Islamic extremists, I think we all know who has the most blood on their hands and its NOT Israel !.

        • Devilworshipper

          ‘A few Palestinians’? Oh, so it’s simply a body count, is it?

          • Mike

            All deaths are wrong but the sane amongst us put it in perspective.

            Are you saying that a dozen palestinian deaths from a war initiated by Hamas is worse than the tens of thoudsands killed by the Muslim civil wars as thats exactly what it sounds like !

          • Devilworshipper

            Of course I am not. It is you who formed the comparison. The problem with this situation is that people lump all Muslims together, when it’s actually a discussion about the plight of the Palestinian people. Thus, the fact that they have been evicted by force from their land – and continue to be evicted – is justified somehow by the appalling conduct of so many dictators in other Arab countries.

          • thomasaikenhead

            Mike,

            As you like to put things in perspective, one Israeli civilian died from a rocket fired from Gaza, hundreds of Palestinians have been killed by the Israeli military and thousands more wounded in response.

            One Israeli soldier has died in the ground offensive, and he was killed by an ISraeli tank shell fired by his own side, not by the Palestinians.

          • Mike

            As Aljazeera reported today, 55 Palestinians have been killed not the hundreds you are quoting. Now you can hardly call this news source biased towards the west can you.

            As usual, those against Israel protecting itself grossly exagerate the death toll they inflict in trying to bring an end to the attacks they have suffered from Hamas. Out of those 55 Palestinians, how many were Hamas terrorists I wonder.

            But the real perspective stands, tens of thousands of Muslims have died at the hands of other Muslim but where are the bleeding heart Liberals condemming this slaighter !

        • Mirrorballman

          “killed a few Palestinians”

          Those four children on the beech were not killed! They were murdered and the whole world saw it!

          • Mike

            As were tens of thousands of Muslims killed by other Muslims. Do you have a problem with acknowleging the mass killing of innocents by Muslim genocide on their own !

      • Mike

        Correction, Palestinians have NOT been killed by the score by Israel or the west, although they have been by extremist Islamics.

        • Bonkim

          Sorry should have said by the hundreds – not scores. Look at the new score-board.

          • Mike

            Whilst we’re at it, we better add a few more thousand Muslims killed by other Muslims if we want to keep the ccounting correct.

          • Bonkim

            Muslims killing Muslims by the tens of thousands is not news – daily occurrence. What else do you expect them to do to spend time?

          • Mike

            There lies the problem with all of the left leaning media outlets be it the BBC & Sky in the UK or NBC & ABC in the USA.

            They refuse to even mention the mass slaughter of thousands when making a biased & political commentary over a fraction of Palestinians being killed due to Israel retaliating against Hamas for firing rockets at them.

            These low lifes on the left who dare to call themselves objective jounalists would rather have Israel wait until Hamas actually launched a nuclear weapon at them than see Israel protecting its civilians. Its like some sick computer war game for them where they want to manipulate the fighting to suit their overblown egos.

          • Bonkim

            You only comment on what you can understand and/or influence – killing fields of Rwanda or Cambodia – who cares from far away – but Israel – someone we know and love/hate and the always wailing and multiplying Palestinians in our backyard and we know well – not that makes news.

            Have you seen how quickly ISIS disappeared from the News – simply because they don’t allow journalists entering their territory. I bet ISIS is doing much more dastardly acts within its closed doors than the Israelis with their High-Tech bombs.

          • Mike

            Agreed but it comes back to the biased left wing media once again.

            They could challenge ISIS or militant Islam to try and report a balanced view but they choose not to. Because of their blatant bias its much easier to ignore the real atrocities and make up news than report the real truth.

          • Bonkim

            Doubt if the press are interested in a suicide mission to report ISIS.

      • ilana

        Israel is trying its best to avoid killing civilians whereas Nazis rounded up millions of Jews and others with the specific intention of murdering them. I don’t need to answer your incorrect point about Israel being the occupier as others have done so below but can I suggest you read up a little more on the history of the area before you post comments on here, or even better take a visit to Israel and see both sides first hand. Get one of the 2 million Israeli Arabs to show you around. I think you may come back with a different opinion.

      • thomasaikenhead

        Bonkim,

        If Hamas are really ‘brainless’ how have the managed to survive the Gaza Blockade and withstand the ISraeli policies of imprisonment, bombing, targeted assassinations, collective punishment, the Dahiya Doctrine and so forth yet still be able to make Israeli citizens in Tel Aviv run for cover whenever Hamas chooses?

        • Bonkim

          By UN Food and medical aid. Israel if it was unleashed could eliminate all in Gaza – Biblical plague upon their enemies – only they have to conform by prevailing standards and not commit excesses. You are right to certain extent – in the 1800s the whole population of Gaza and Palestine would have either been massacred or driven out and no one would have blinked or sermonised – there was no UN.

          • thomasaikenhead

            Bonkim,

            Israel IS unleashed and has killed hundreds of Palestinians and wounded thousands more, just as they did last time that they launched a ground assault, Operation Cast Lead.

            Now, how DID Operation CL benefit Israel?

            – They did not find Gilad Shalit
            – They did not destroy Hamas
            – They did not prevent Hamas firing rockets

            What DID happen was;

            – The international image of Israel was sullied by the sight of the dead Palestinian civilians
            – The UN Goldstone report revealed to the world the brutality of the Israeli tactics
            – It was clear that the Israeli policies of a ‘mailed fist’, ‘disproportionate force’ and the Dahiya Doctrine were counterproductive!

            Remember, every time Israel launches a ground assault on the Gaza Strip in respond to Hamas and fail to destroy Hamas, Israeli impotence is exposed to the world and Hamas emerges stronger.

            As for your claim that The population of Gaza or Palestine could have been massacred or driven out, you clearly remain ignorant of the lessons of history!

            At the time both areas were part of the Ottoman Empire. When the Ottoman Empire used ‘disproportionate force’ to suppress as revolt in the Balkans, the resultant mass civilian deaths provoked revulsion amongst the international community.

            The nineteenth century press had a field day with regard to the cruel oppression and as a result the Ottoman Empire had no support in a forthcoming war with Russia and suffered a humiliating defeat.

            Those who do not learn from history are destined to suffer!

          • Bonkim

            Agree – for the time Israel is getting away with murder though. But Hamas will have to smarten their act to make progress and soon the local population will throw them out.

          • thomasaikenhead

            Bonkim,

            Surely the real solution is for Israel to stop ‘getting away with murder’ and for Hamas to use political and diplomatic means rather than violence?

          • Bonkim

            Go back to square 1 – yes Hamas needs some brains and help from their Arab brethren in the region.

          • thomasaikenhead

            bonkim,

            Do Hamas REALLY nned ‘brains’?

            They are currently controlling events, have survived years of Israeli attempts to eradicate them and there is no credible political entity in the Gaza Strip that could usurp or replace them?

            Please feel free to correct me if I am wrong.

            Hamas have vehemently rejected any talk of a ceasefire because they will achieve more by prolonging the conflict.

            Israel and Egypt may actually have to agreeing to raise the Gaza blockade to obtain a ceasefire!

            Hamas look good right now, they are still firing rockets, have closed down Israeli airspace, can reach Tel Aviv and have not been destroyed even though Israel has committed ground forces.

            Emboldened by their success in retaining Gilad shalit when Israel had ‘boots on the ground’ Hamas has hidden its operational leaders and currently has not intention whatsoever of accepting a ceasefire.

          • Bonkim

            Nothing wrong or write – Hamas is banking on Israel’s PR being blotted and ability to take punishment. Fatah on the west Bank and the Palestinian people all over are leaderless and at the mercy of terrorist gangs – suits Israel’s interests well. This will fester on – 1947 06 1967 or 2047/67 – the rest of the world has lost interest in the Palestinians – and Israel i suppose is now well honed into the periodic forays into Gaza and killing a few hundred more. US/UK will shout from the sidelines – and the show will go on. What is the point of cease fire – I would like to see the battle to the bitter end – now that will be history.

          • thomasaikenhead

            Bonkim,

            “…suits Israel’s interests well.”

            Really?

            Pray do tell how it suits Israel to have demonstrations that are pro-Palestine all over the world, the FAA and other leading airlines declaring Israeli airspace unsafe and off limits albeit on a temporary basis, the possibility of the UN investigating Israel for war crimes. attention drawn to the Israeli nuclear facilities at Dimona, hundreds of dead Palestinians and thousands wounded, public knowledge that the IDF is sending troops into battle in APC’s that are decades old and known to be death traps, and the IDF STILL unable to destroy Hamas?

          • Bonkim

            I bet Nethanyahu has done his sums and can’t lose with Melanie Philips plugging for his cause. If you want to do something ignore what others say/think.

          • thomasaikenhead

            With a friend like Melanie Phillips, who needs enemies?

          • Bonkim

            intelligent and sexy although too-pro Israel.

          • thomasaikenhead

            Bonkim,

            Hamas DO have brains which is why they have been able to survive Israel trying to eradicating them for decades.

            They have run rings around Israel in diplomatic and political circles.

            Despite the Gaza blockade they have been able to progress from missiles that barely cleared the border to being able to target Tel Aviv.

            They have just closed down Israeli airspace and so isolated Israel.

            They have ruined the Israeli tourist season for this year.

            They have witnessed spontaneous demonstrations against Israel all over the globe.

            Not too bad for people lacking brains?

            Let us be very clear, it is Hamas that is controlling events, any ceasefire will only take place when and if Hamas decide, and upon their terms!

          • Bonkim

            Not too bad – let the show continue until Hamas gets what it wants and the Palestinian people dwindle in numbers..

          • thomasaikenhead

            Bonkim,

            Be careful of what you wish for?

            The show is continuing, the IDF are taking casualties, Hamas are defiant and refusing any talk of a ceasefire, the rockets are still falling on Israel, IDF forces are riding onto battle in death trap APCs that are decades out of date, the international community is turning on Israel, the UN is looking into allegations of Israeli war crimes.

            Remember, Israel NEEDS the Un desperately as it is the Un that is behind many of the sanctions against Iran related to its nuclear programme.

            While Iran is negotiating with the P5+1 group, Israel is distracted by the situation in Gaza.

            Now, who REALLY poses the greatest threat to Israel, Hamas or a nuclear Iran?

          • Bonkim

            Both can slide into the Med. Those who live by the sword die by the sword. Old APCs = surely as the fourth largest defence force in the world they can afford to modernise, have friends and donors in high places across the globe.

          • thomasaikenhead

            Hamas has brains in abundance, how else have they survived Israel, a state with one of the most powerful and sophisticated military forces in the world, failing to eradicate them.

            In fact, they are going from strength to strength, they can now land rockets on Tel Aviv, close Israeli airspace and are politically and diplomatically running rings around Israel, as the protests against Israel all over the world make very clear.

            Why they have even got the UN on the verge of prosecuting Israel for war crimes!

            If Hamas did not feel that they are winning, why would they be rejecting any not on of a ceasefire.

            Is it REALLY possible that a group of stupid Palestinians can demonstrate Israeli impotence and humiliate Israel in this fashion?

          • Bonkim

            Hamas is banking on Israelis being sensitive to international stigma as a bully – they should carpet bomb all Hamas installations in Gaza rather than the pin-pricks so far and see what happens. Pigs will squeal I suppose – ignore them.

          • thomasaikenhead

            Bonkim,

            Israel cannot carpet bomb Gaza as it contains nearly two million Palestinians.

      • Weaver

        Collective punishment would see a lot more Palestinian dead. I don’t buy it.

    • Kennybhoy

      Welcome back Miss Phillips. We missed you…

      • Jackthesmilingblack

        Speak for yourself… Oh you were.

      • George Smiley

        Not!

        • Kennybhoy

          Hah! The one thing that can unite Maisters Smiley and Jack – antisemitism!

          PS You stalking me loon…?

          • George Smiley

            With pleasure!

    • shoshannah

      gerronwithit – I agree with your comment, especially “unless and until the Israeli body count exceeds the Palestinians, the wailing and derision will continue.” IF that happens (God-forbid), the “wailing and derision” will change to “congratulations and celebrations”, perhaps including the distribution of candies and “high fives”… and I’m talking about the Western media and anti-Israel, Jew-hating Americans, Brits and such, not only Hamas.

    • Hegelguy

      So Arabs should pay for German crimes?

    • MikeF

      “unless and until the Israeli body count exceeds the Palestinians, the wailing and derision will continue” – if that ever happened then it would become a triumphalist chorus.

    • Roger Hudson

      When i see children killed on a beach i don’t care if the ships captain is a jew or a british prince, i would torpedo them with equal anger.

    • http://steviethek.wordpress.com steviethek

      would the ‘body count’ of Israelis exceed that of the Palis, do you think anything would change? It would not.

    • cawthornish

      “perfect articulation”? leaving aside the rights and wrongs of the conflict – which neither of us has enough insight to comment on – That woman (Melanie phillips) is clearly a babbling idiot. It’s dogmatic, blinkered opinions like hers that perpetuates the slaughter. Would you be so kind as to reassess your understanding of “perfect articulation”. Whilst you are at it , look up ” economical with the truth”. I do hope you don’t expose your offspring to such poor discussion.

  • Spartanzz

    Melanie,

    There is a groundswell of rising support for Israel after the shock realisation Islamism is one of our greatest threats. The trend is moving away from Islamists controlling the narrative and their propaganda towards a realisation Islamism is the new Nazism on steroids.

    Murder, terror, kidnapping, bombings, shootings, head hacking, executions, brutality, enforcement, totalitarianism on and on it goes and it’s growing in virality. 1.2+ billion muslims on the planet today, western intel suggest over 25% subscribe to the hardline version. That’s 300 million Islamists, nearly the size of America.

    Here in Israel we absolutely and definitely WILL hold the lines before the cavalry arrives, and if it doesn’t we will take the fight to the enemy alone if needed. We are defending the front line of humanity and civilization. However long it takes.

    Melanie, you know Jews were in no position to do this after getting kicked out of Israel back in 70A.D. by the Romans. We were left to wander the earth getting butchered, massacred, persecuted as a minority for thousands of years culminating in one of the most horrific acts of barbarism the world has ever seen.

    1948 almost wiped out, we returned full of hope to rebuild a nation out of our utter saddness and desperation.

    Todays Israelis are “Super mutant Jews on steroids”. As I write to you out of Tel Aviv, the breeze flowing through my apartment, the sun shining fiercely, our flag an ever potent reminder that Israel is the ultimate shield for Jews against evil brutality, it’s a reminder of a gateway to a better world where we reign supreme across multi-industry sectors, science, technology, engineering, maths for the benefit of humanity.

    Islamists right now as the sirens blare…fire their Iranian made rockets at us in Tel Aviv and beyond, but today our tech superiority is unrivalled at any point in the sad long history of our struggles. This time we can fight back across multiple fronts in all directction with such ferocity and conviction it frustrates, dumbfounds the enemy.

    Evolutionary biologist Richard Dawkins makes an incredibly astute observation:

    “I think my love of truth and honesty forces me to notice that the liberal intelligentsia of Western countries is betraying itself where Islam is concerned. It’s stymied by the conflict between being against misogyny and discrimination against women on the one hand, and on the other by the terror of being thought racist driven by misunderstanding Islam as though it were a race. So people who would normally speak out against the maltreatment of women don’t do it. I do fret about what I see as a betrayal by my own people, the nice liberals.”

    I completely agree with Richard. They could almost be forgiven for thinking They’re trapped in the mightiest of ironic paradoxes. Furthermore for a good portion of the political left, their worldview is that the traditional West, with its Judeo-Christian religious background, with its capitalist economic theories, with its technological & military success–is the true and ultimate source of evil in the world.

    They’ve rejected the basic understanding that ALL men are internally flawed and fallen, and you’ve replaced it with a progressive worldview which says that Western, conservative, white, heterosexual Jewish or Christian males are a priori bad, and that non-western, non-white, non-Christian peoples (and of course, liberal westerners) are a priori good. And in some ways, they’re absolutely correct that the worldview of the traditional West–with its Christian morality, emphasis of
    personal responsibility and individuality–is the largest obstacle to many of their progressive goals of statism, free sexuality and restriction of individual rights in favour of collectivism.

    So, when Dawkins says “they’re afraid of being called racist”, that’s kind of true. But really, for liberals to acknowledge that the traditional West could be morally superior to the non-Western Muslim culture, would be a seismic, catastrophic overturning of their entire worldview and that’s a place that most on the left are not willing to go—and if it means betraying millions of Muslim women, gay Muslims, artists and writers and any true liberals in the Muslim world, you can bet that they
    will. They’d see them massacred and turn their heads. They can be proud of standing by that sick irony.

    For every life lost in the Gaza strip, women, children, men, the blame lays squarely with Hamas who have imprisoned, enslaved its population. They fly around in their luxury jets, staying in 5 star hotels whilst they throw their people like lambs to the slaughter on the front line. Firing rockets from civilian positions, spending their money on tens of thousands of rockets. Not a single swing, slide, playground in Gaza, over 360km2 of territory holding over 1.7m+ Gazans.

    This was stretches far beyond Israel and Gaza, it’s a war for the very survival of humanity itself.

    • will91

      Your absolutely right. This conflict is a microcosm of the greatest conflict of our time, a conflict happening around the world. Between those who wish to preserve and defend the features which make the west the west and those intent upon allowing them to fall into disrepair. For many in the west, they assume these traditional freedoms are a birthright. Well, more and more are coming to the realisation that if we don’t stand up for them…no one will.

      • Bonkim

        The real question is how long that will last – haven’t you heard of the life-cycle theory that governs all you see in nature including human societies.

        • will91

          Generally, once a muslim population reaches about 20% of the population, that society takes on profoundly disturbing adjustments. Of the 46 muslim majority nations, only 3 were free. Of the 16 nations in which muslims form 20 – 50 percent of the population only another 3 – Benin, Suriname and Serbia & Montenegro were ranked as free. It will be interesting to see how France copes with been the 4th member of that group, something we WILL all see in about 10/15 years. Of course this change won’t be reported on the news, but it will happen before our very eyes.

          • James Lovelace

            “Generally, once a muslim population reaches about 20% of the population, that society takes on profoundly disturbing adjustments.”

            Muslims are 21% of prisoners under 21 in the UK. Muslims are supposedly 5% of the UK population. The UK is going to understand progessively what jews have been living with. And the collapse of the UK into civil violence will proceed with great rapidity.

          • Hegelguy

            Islamic extremism was encouraged by the US and the UK to fight the Russians in Afghanistan. Pakistan was inundated with guns, drugs and extreme Islamic propaganda printed by the CIA at the University of Nebraska.

          • James Lovelace

            So what? The US and UK didn’t make Mohammed behead 900 men and boys in 1 day.

            The US and UK didn’t encourage muslims to ride out of Arabia and subjugate everyone from Lisbon to Kabul.

            The US and UK did not make Hasan Banna create the Muslim Brotherhood in 1928 (which he modelled on the National Socialist Party). The Muslim Brotherhood back then was already demanding a return to the Caliphate, and the return to subjugation for people in Spain and Sicily.

            The same US and UK elite who encouraged islamic fundamentalism in the 1990s are the people who have invited muslims to take over the US and UK. This elite will be sitting pretty, while muslims in the west provoke a civil war from Dublin to Athens.

          • Hegelguy

            You are being rather uncharitable to Islam and Muslims. Islamic conquest brought with it a great new civilization that drew on the best features of the existing ones and spread such good things as Indian mathematics and Greek philosophy far and wide. In its day it was the most advanced human society and the modern world would have been impossible without its contributions. Of course it had its share of barbarities but it would be hard to say they outdid those of Christendom. From the Jewish point of view Muslim rule was a distinct improvement on the Christian one.
            As for Islamic fundamentalism all it indicates is that Islam has not yet had the secularising revolution that the West underwent after the French Revolution. It will definitely take some time for this to happen. Meanwhile the US did not help by intensifying the worst trends in Islam. Nor does Israel help by making Arabs pay for the crimes of Germans.

    • JB_1966

      I support you wholeheartedly and wish you well. We in the West will very soon be experiencing the same onslaught and, indeed, the rape gangs, Jew bashers and religious murderers are already at work.

      Left wingers in this country are already converting in small numbers and en tout they are abandoning support for liberal ideas in favour of prostrating themselves before group rights.

      They will reap the whirlwind with the rest of us but they can’t see it.

      Good luck.

      • will91

        You never know, we might have to move to Israel. The one western nations who fights (on a daily basis) to protect it’s values. Rather that than the UK, which has already shown that it is all about coming to an “accomodation” (a euphemism for self-castration) with those who despise your values/culture. Pitch it forward 10 years, you’ll have Muslim blocs in Parliament and the Muslim vote in the UK will be more important than the black vote in the United States. Then we’ll see how resolute our values are.

        • JB_1966

          I’m from Bradford (originally; no longer, thankfully) and have seen it coming from the start. When we said two decades ago that Muslims would ask for Sharia law we were told that we were insane (literally this is what The Guardian and its moron readers said) and yet that is just what they are doing.

          We weren’t even prescient, merely observant. Unlike the racist left, who condescend to “minorities” with their pathetic platitudes, some of us listened to what Muslims actually said and, when they said “we want Sharia and all non-Muslims to serve us and the death of all Jews”, we paid them the courtesy of thinking they knew their own minds. Not the left, oh no, the left heard, “we want less discrimination, more benefits and rights”. Idiots.

          • thomasaikenhead

            JB !966,

            Why not allow sharia law if beth din is permitted?

          • JB_1966

            Do I argue for beth din in Britain?

          • thomasaikenhead

            JB1966,

            Well you will have to make your mind up, either accept religious arbitration as an element of law in British society or follow the example of Ontario in Canada and ban all religious arbitration.

            You cannot have it both ways, allowing certain minority religious groups rights denied to other minority religious groups.

          • JB_1966

            thomasaikenhead, you are disingenuous at best.

            First, I have made no comment about the desirability of permitting religious law. My comment was about how the left interpreted clearly stated aims by Muslims in Bradford.

            Second, if religious laws are to be permitted, then they should be restricted to people currently following a particular religion and not applied to the rest of society, as clearly demanded by Muslims in Bradford 20 years ago.

            Third, I do not have to make your choice. I would happily discriminate between religions who insist that their religion be supreme in Britain (i.e. Muslims) and those who don’t (e.g. Jews, Sikhs, Parsees) and allow some to control their own affairs and other not. After all, we regularly require that people pass all kinds of formal and informal tests before being allowed to do things (e.g. driving, being judged mentally competent and keeping their children).

          • thomasaikenhead

            JB1966,

            It is not ‘disingenuous’ to hold an opinion that differs from your own!

          • JB_1966

            It is disingenuous to misrepresent me: see my first point. It is further disingenuous to pretend that we merely differ in opinion when I hold you to be a dissembler – at best.

          • thomasaikenhead

            If you cannot attack the argument, attack the man1

            Your failure to address let alone refute my reply to your original comment is now made clear, trying to imply that I am disingenuous and a dissembler is yet further evidence of the paucity of your argument.

            By starting a personal attack you undermine your own credibility.

          • JB_1966

            I addressed your misrepresentation. Then I addressed some of your points. You yourself haven’t addressed a word I have said but, so we’re clear, this is the last engagement I will have with you.

          • MissDemeanor

            ignore him

            he’s like a pedantic autistic parrot waving the hamas flag

          • JB_1966

            And yet his pedantry is always, always wrong. He has learned the leftie lessons of screeching offended outrage though but it doesn’t get him anywhere here.

          • Martin Newman

            Do you work for the Guardian?

          • Martin Newman

            And I think by now your opinion is obvious to all.

          • Martin Newman

            As I have said before in the UK and outside Israel the religious courts are courts of arbitration and do not take priority over the law of the land. You are ill informed thomasaikenhead.

          • Damaris Tighe

            Sharia is, salami slice by salami slice, moving from within the muslim community onto the street: halal meat, ‘sharia zones’, muslims refusing to serve pork & alchohol in supermarkets. The Beth Din (Jewish law) isn’t.

          • thomasaikenhead

            Would those ‘sharia zones’ be like the ‘salami slice by salami slice’ creeping intolerance in Israel that has emerged in recent years?

            You know hat I mean the buses where women are forced to sit at the back and are beaten, reviled and spat upon if they fail to do so?

            Where shops are forced to close on the sabbath lest religious fanatics smash their windows should they refuse?

            How about the districts where cars cannot drive on the road without being attacked and having their windscreens shattered?

            Is that the sort of intolerance that you fear might occur in the UK?

          • Damaris Tighe

            These people are a tiny minority in Israel & rightly widely reviled. I have no fear of it occurirng in the UK as we are not a Jewish state, & British Jews understand that.

          • thomasaikenhead

            Damaris Tighe,

            These people are not a tiny minority are are certainly not reviled, just look at the effusive outpourings from leading Israeli politicians and public figures when Rabbi Ovadia Yosef died recently?

            He certainly endorsed all the things I mention above but that did not prevent him being revered.

          • Damaris Tighe

            Politics, politics, politics I’m afraid.

          • lookout

            You have never read what the Palestinian leaders say about the Jewish people, go see how Jews and Christians are treated throughout the middle east, as Netanyahu said, take a trip round embattled democratic Israel and witness the rights given to all its citizens, then take a bus to the Lebanon, Jordan, Iraq, Egypt, Gaza and the West Bank and make sure your bus is armoured and mention it if you are a Christian.

          • Jack

            Hamas’ ideology is repugnant, anti-semitism is repugnant, terrorism and racism and violent fundamentalism are all repugnant. Killing terrorists or soldiers who are attacking you or civilians is a necessary thing. But killing children, bombing hospitals, occasionally denying civilians humanitarian aid is messed up, and that’s why people are angry at (very specifically) the Israeli govt. The govt., not the people, not the religion they claim to represent. The issue isn’t a binary choice between a) anti-semetic, left-wing Islamist lovers who think no muslims do wrong, and b) those who believe the Israeli govt. is a utopian organization that represents every Jew on earth and can’t do any wrong ever. There are plenty of centrist agnostics (as I am), who look at the violence done in the name of apparently peace-loving invisible sky-wizards, and cringe with despair.

          • Jack

            Hamas’ ideology is repugnant, anti-semitism is repugnant, terrorism and racism and violent fundamentalism are all repugnant. Killing terrorists or soldiers who are attacking you or civilians is a necessary thing. But killing children, bombing hospitals, occasionally denying civilians humanitarian aid is messed up, and that’s why people are angry at (very specifically) the Israeli govt. The govt., not the people, not the religion they claim to represent. The issue isn’t a binary choice between a) anti-semetic, left-wing Islamist lovers who think no muslims do wrong, and b) those who believe the Israeli govt. is a utopian organization that represents every Jew on earth and can’t do any wrong ever. There are plenty of centrist agnostics (as I am), who look at the violence done in the name of apparently peace-loving invisible sky-wizards, and cringe with despair.

          • Martin Newman

            Ovadia Yosef lost the plot in his old age. He was also in his day a moderate and considerate rabbi with a light touch approach to Judaism. Some of his latter ranting when he went into politics were disgraceful. A lot of people did mourn him for that reason but he had a minority and shrinking following. His following was only among a small group of ultra-orthodox Sephardis. Modern Sephardi Jews would not tolerate much of what he said in later life.

          • Martin Newman

            This is a minority ultra-orthodox group who do not support Israel right to exist anyway. They are also being dealt with.

          • JB_1966

            Exactly so. Don’t forget the rape gangs though.

          • Martin Newman

            The beth din works to the law of the land and does not try to supersede it. It is a religious court that only judges on religious matters (dietary laws, religious divorce (only once it has been through the law courts etc) but people can use it as a court of mediation if they so wish. It has no legal powers and works on the premise that ‘the law of the land is the law’. It is totally ignorant of facts to compare it with Sharia law.

          • thomasaikenhead

            Martin Newman,

            “It is totally ignorant of facts to compare it with Sharia law.”

            Not at all, an if you were aware, of instance, of the situation in Ontario Canada where Beth Din used to operate, yo would not have made such a comment.

            After an attempt was made to introduce sharia to Ontario where Beth Din and certain Ismali religious arbitration organisations operated, there was opposition by certain vested interests.

            As a result, it was decide that there wold be NO religious element allowed at all in the legal process in Ontario and all were banned!

            Next time you might care to to think twice before accusing others of ignorance without and basis for such a statement?

          • Jack

            You must lament the failure of the EDL. How do you spend your Saturdays now?

        • Damaris Tighe

          You’ve hit the nail on the head there. I’m sure the reason why the western elites hate Israel is because they loathe self-confident nations that fight to protect their values & cultures. Just look at Britain & other European countries. It looks as if they’ll last less long than Israel.

          • Jack

            You think that all the hundreds of millions of people who live in Europe are blind, weak and foolish? Do you know how madly prejudiced you sound?

        • Hegelguy

          It seems unjust to make Arabs pay for German crimes.

          • Jackthesmilingblack

            Punished for a Holocaust they had no part in or culpability for.

        • Hegelguy

          Israel will collapse as the rich and the professionals leave for less stressed societies. In itself the idea of a Jewish state was sound but it should not have been set up at the expense of Arabs who were not responsible for the anti-Semitism of Europe.

          • Spartanzz

            Well I am rich and professional holding degrees in both computer science, industrial engineering a Masters in agro economics and currently working on my PhD thesis commodity pricing.

            I was born in Israel moved to the UK but moved back home to Israel 6 years ago after the 2008 crisis. Instinctively I could see the UK was heading back to the stone ages.

            In Israel. Jews the world over are pouring into Israel. All that diversity, talent and common bond forged over 3,000 years. Well over 50% of the population holds degrees. We have more PhDs, Master grads in science, tech, engineering, maths per capita than anywhere else on earth.

            I’m writing to you sat in my place by the beach in Tel Aviv, start up capital of the world and it’s booming here.

            We lead in Agritech, Biotech, Cleantech, Hitech, Fintech. Nanotech, Cybertech, Defense, Strategy, Energytech, Solartech, Watech, Braintech, AItech….on and on it goes. VC money is pouring into Israel from all over the world making it the largest open air R&D innovation centre on the planet.

            Israel is one big Silicon Wadi…

            China is investing billions
            India is investing billions
            Brazil is now investing
            Russia is investing
            Africa is investing

            In addition to the West’s investments to date.
            I have absolutely zero intentions of leaving what many believe to be one of the most tech advanced nations on the planet with an incredible future. Over 80% of Israel is made up of Jews with great diversity across the faiths.

            Oh and we have just found massive deposits of gas and oil off both on and off our lands. We’re developing advanced tech projects as we speak to develop energy infrastructures.

            “Israel will collapse as the rich and the professionals leave for less stressed societies.”

            That statement is absolute garbage beyond doubt. I’m getting married, my kids will be born, raised here that much I promise you.

            Seeing as I’m well connected, I also speak for the rest of the rich and professionals. We’re not leaving Israel…ever.

            The West on the other hand is sinking into the abyss…

          • Hegelguy

            Yet consider Israel’s geographic isolation.

            It is trapped in a corner with the huge Arab world all around.

            How long can that last?

            No matter what the high tech and the business success.

            Israel’s best bet – its only bet for survival in fact – is to appreciate that the Arabs were not responsible for the Holocaust and should therefore be treated with respect and there should be a decent two state deal: which does mean Jewish settlements in the Arab sector occupied in 1967 have to be dismantled.

            After all, Israel is not allowing Palestinians to return to villages and towns they lost in 1948. You cannot say what’s mine is mine and what’s yours we share.

            This is the only possible deal but I am very pessimistic about whether it can ever be reached.

            If Israel did not have unconditional US backing, maybe.
            But as it is we have short sighted people like yourself on that beach in Tel Aviv and thinking they have the world sewn up when in fact they are sitting in what is becoming minute by minute an arena choked in blood and hate.

          • Spartanzz

            We’re certainly not geographically isolated this is a null and void statement. On the contrary we’re positioned at the optimum point where West meets East, North meets South a bridge to all 4 corners of the earth. This is EXACTLY why Israel and thus Jerusalem attracts so much attention. Israel sits at the geo point where the continents meet.

            So much so the Chinese are currently investing billions in transportation infrastructures in Israel as a viable hub. Egypt plans to partner with us also in this regard.

            The rest of your waffle is simply not worthy of a response, simply because you have zero credibility when it comes to Israel and the wider geopolitical transformations occuring. You’re certainly no visionary, strategist in that regard.

            As Elon Musk famously quoted, “natural human tendency is to suffer wishful thinking” and very poor sub optimal opinion piece grounded in nothing but conjecture, half truths and hocus pocus goes some way to validating his statement.

            Israel as a state has never been more powerful in its ability to protect the Jews the last 3,000 years.

            We’re waiting patiently for other events to unfold then we will make further long lasting moves to secure our civilization.

            You can be as emotive as you like, however we trust science, technology, engineering, maths and our ability to out innovate, outmanoeuvre our enemies before they know what day it is. We have a mighty evolutionary advantage over our enemies.

            The world is indeed changing as we face a paradigm environmental transition unlike any other our species has faced before. We believe it is the West facing major issues. The Middle East has already fractured into pieces dissipating our enemies. Israel is innovative enough, nimble enough to pulverize any and all threats. We’re working on advanced projects you haven’t even dreamt of yet in close collaboration with “other Int’ partners”.

            You’re entitled to be “pessimistic” though. May I suggest this may be your problem…it clouds your ability to think clearly, logically, rationally.

            Thank you…

          • Hegelguy

            You have not engaged with the central point I made:

            ” Israel’s best bet – its only bet for survival in fact – is to appreciate that the Arabs were not responsible for the Holocaust and should therefore be treated with respect and there should be a decent two state deal: which does mean Jewish settlements in the Arab sector occupied in 1967 have to be dismantled.

            After all, Israel is not allowing Palestinians to return to villages and towns they lost in 1948. You cannot say what’s mine is mine and what’s yours we share.”
            What can any reasonable person have against that?

          • Spartanzz

            I purposefully ignored your waffle as previously explained but I’ll answer your points…

            Please note, we don’t base our civilization’s future on crude unscientific….”best bets” we apply the physics framework for navigating the unknown. We therefore take a systematic approach sometimes reasoning by first principle, other times by variations on analogy applying the “cynefin” framework.

            Please refrain from making absolute statements of fact, this is highly unscientific “its only bet for survival in fact” If you were one of my students I’d instantly fail you.

            Clearly you weren’t paying attention so this time pay attention…I will not be replying to you again, we have many great scientific minds assessing all eventual outcomes that could be possibly modelled both in the short, medium and long term across the cynefin framework.

            In a dynamic phase transition environment it’s unwise to draw rapid fire emotive based conclusions until you know clearly what environment you’re in or are moving into.

            If what I’ve said makes no sense to you, I strongly advise you “hit the books” rather than drawing simplistic conclusions within the limitations of your own mind.

            Good day…

          • Hegelguy

            I am glad I am not your student. I put some pretty obvious points to you and asked a simple question as to whether they were valid. In response all I get is a claim you are dealing with the points – which made me hopeful – and then a baffling rant using some gobbledegook terminology and saying you are “scientific” unlike me !
            Farcical.
            I seriously hope this is not representative of Israeli thinking about the future because if it is you are in serious trouble !

          • Martin Newman

            There are Arab doctors, politicians, judges and non-Jewish clerics in Israel. How many Arab states (which in the main have expelled or intimidated their Jewish citizens ~ other than Morocco) would permit the same. It seems to me that the hatred on this site is against the Jewish people.

          • sebastian2

            Well done, and I most most sincerely wish you well. The problem with Israel is not that it exists but that it doesn’t exist more. Many Arabs currently “living” under despots and crackpots would be better off by far under Israeli control and governance. Until they are emancipated from the bigotry and hatreds of islam, they will never find peace either among themselves or among nations. Theirs is an ideological dead end.

      • thomasaikenhead

        JB 1966,

        You seem oblivious to the fact that it is the West that has repeatedly invaded Muslim states in recent years in order to promote their own objectives and at great costs to the inhabitants of those countries.

        After all the blood and treasure spent, what has the West actually achieved;

        – Afghanistan. Defeat means that the West will ‘cut and run’ and allow a Taliban victory.
        – Iraq. Death and destruction on a massive scale will lead to the break up of the state and misery for the majority of its inhabitants.
        – Syria. Support for the rebels encouraged them to wage a devastating civil war and commit countless atrocities on fellow Muslims and other minorities.
        – Libya. A failed state riven by civil war and taken over by fanatics and militias.

        Not a single Western state has been attacked by a Muslim state, has it?

        • JB_1966

          Am I oblivious to it? Do I support those invasions? Where do I say that?

        • Damaris Tighe

          Western states are under continual attack by muslim groups financed by muslim states.

          • thomasaikenhead

            Not at all, in the UK for instance by far the greatest attacks on the state and its subjects and citizens in modern times was from the fellow Christians of the IRA.

          • Damaris Tighe

            Hundred of Islamist attacks each year are thwarted by the police & security services. Or would you argue that, like Israel, because these plots are ineffective the UK should ignore them?

          • thomasaikenhead

            Damaris,

            I would like to see credible evidence that ‘hundreds’ of Muslim attacks in the UK are thwarted every year by the police and security services.

            What we have seen from the police and security services is lots of political theatre in recent years like tanks at Heathrow, a gunboat on the Thames, rocket launchers on tower blocks in the East End of London and the farce of mass screening at airports but precious little evidence of any really effective work being done about any Muslim threat.

          • Colonel Mustard

            Ignore him. He is just another marxist using his clever-clogs relativist argument to subvert and deconstruct what is left of our country. They thrive and feed on chaos and its contradictions.

          • thomasaikenhead

            Colonel Mustard,

            How on earth did you determine that I am a ‘Marxist’?

            Why not stick to commenting on the article and the thread beneath it rather than projecting your fantasies?

          • Colonel Mustard

            Because you sound just like one. And if you are not then you are doing a great impression of being one.

          • JB_1966

            Indeed so. And our own government (by whichever party) collaborates with these efforts by important yet more and more muslims who hate us and encouraging them not live apart.

    • Bonkim

      I suppose survival of the fittest and Hamas has no brains and deserves to perish. But don’t bring moral justification in the discussion. Israel has been created on land snatched from the the Palestinians by the colonial powers that ruled much of the world at the time – it was created by fire and will probably perish by fire.

      Humanity will not survive long regardless of the Israel – Hamas conflict – with exploding populations across the globe and fast depleting resources man’s tenure on earth limited to a century or two at most if not decades.

      • Yaldram

        Good Israel is snachting big chunks of lands from the natives.They r looking towards the birth of one more messiah and belive he is gonna land in Israel but Prophet Muhammad is the last messiah and antichirst is what the jews r looking for

    • guest

      Brilliant!
      I can only say, Thank you, to your lot for everything that you do for the human species. Innovation of all kinds in all sectors, and combating in every way, the most threatening ideology in the 21st century, Islamism.

    • thomasaikenhead

      Spartanzz,

      “There is a groundswell of rising support for Israel…”

      Any evidence whatsoever to support your claim?

      The ever-increasing success of the BDS movement, the numerous protests all over the world about Israeli killing hundreds of civilians and wounding thousands more, the repeated appeals from statesman and international organisations for Israel to stop slaughtering Palestinians and countless other examples would all suggest just the opposite!

      Do you REALLY think that Israel is enjoying rising support?

      • Michele Keighley

        Yes – as more and more people discover the truth about Islam, they change their attitude towards the true aggressors Hammas. It’s called ‘growing up’ – don’t worry, you’ll get there.

        • thomasaikenhead

          Michele Keighley,

          Like spartanzz and MissDemeanour, you seem unable to provide any credible evidence to support your claim about rising support for Israel?

          The growing success of the Boycott, Divestment and sanctions movement seems to prove quite the opposite.

          The willingness of the West to negotiate with Iran and accept Iran as a nuclear power via the P5+1 negotiations in the face of the hysterical opposition of Israel is another example of how support for Israel is not increasing.

          The growing number of countries that recognise Palestine as a state entity and allow Palestine to establish diplomatic missions and have upgraded its diplomatic status in the face of vehement opposition from Israel clearly illustrates lessening support for Israel.

          The loss of former staunch allies such as Turkey clearly shows the failure of Israeli diplomacy and lessening support for Israel.

          These are just a few examples of the way that Israel is slowly but surely losing support from both individuals and other states including former allies.

          As further evidence of the lessening support for Israel just look at the supra-national organisations that have ignored Israeli protests and given support to the Palestinians, amongst them UNESCO.

          The ever-increasing diplomatic and political isolation is a direct result of the policies followed by successive Israeli governments that are out of step with the beliefs and values held by both individuals and other states.

          I look forward for the verifiable evidence to counter the above and validate your claim of increased support for Israel from either individuals, states or supra-national organisations.

          • will91

            Don’t worry the only support that matters, the US, will continue to support Israel, as they see it for what it is. A foothold in a swamp.

            Israel also enjoys support from King Abdullah of Saudi Arabia, naturally he doesn’t want to publicly admit this, but the last thing he wants is a nuclear armed Iran. As this could pre-empt a nuclear rush across the most volatile region on the planet.

          • thomasaikenhead

            will91,

            It is best not to take things for granted, the US supports Israel while it is convenient, but as circumstances change that support is likely to change to best accommodate what is best for the US, not Israel.

            President Obama is clearly disengaging Us forces from central Asia as the ‘cut and run’ from Afghanistan will make clear, he refused to get invoked in the Libyan debacle and has provided no assistance of note to the Iraqi government and refused to support the rebels against Assad.

            Fracking is the key, the US can not only become energy self-sufficient, it will actually have energy to export and so the oil of the Middle east is no longer of strategic interest to the US, hence the focus on Asia as the future major sphere of interest for the US.

            Iran is already a nuclear power as the Russian-supplied reactor is operational, the talks are just about agreeing the details for ending sanctions and Iran rejoining the international community.

        • Devilworshipper

          Actually, there is a growing number of people even in Israel’s main sponsor, USA, especially amongst younger ones, who are critical of its conduct towards the Palestinians.
          Before you make your sneeringly patronising comment to thomasaikenhead, you might like to consider that this is a far more complex situation than a simple matter of how unpleasant Muslims are.

      • MissDemeanor

        YES!

        • thomasaikenhead

          MissDemeanour,

          Any tangible evidence to support your claim?

          • MissDemeanor

            the disgusted european faces, anytime a mouth foaming terroist-suporting lynch mob gathers in a european capital screaming for death, carnage and beheadings, and never EVER screaming for peace.

            people are sick and tired of Islam, and rightly so
            Islam isn’t fit to live in peace with anybody: not Sikhs, not Buddhists, not Hindus, not Jews, not Christians and not even other Muslims – it is clear to anybody with more than 4 braincells that Islam is a death cult aimed at the lowest common denominators.

          • thomasaikenhead

            MissDemeanour,

            More opinion but no evidence whatsoever to support your claim of increased support for Israel in any way, shape or form!

          • MissDemeanor

            i’m calling it as i see it actually

            I’m not going to run around Europe’s capitals collecting statistics on how more and more Muslims are being looked upon as the enemy within, just to please you or prove something to you.

            you can keep believing what you believe, terrorist supporters aren;t known to be a truthful bunch anyways.

          • thomasaikenhead

            MiussDemeanour,

            Like several others here, you are indeed ‘calling it as you see it’ but are unable to refute any of the several examples I have given of a decrease in support for Israel or provide any credible evidence to support your original claim that support for Israel is increasing.

            I have never mentioned what I ‘believe’, just made some observations based on credible and verifiable facts and applied some logic.

          • MissDemeanor

            it is you who in clearly unable to see: but even you admit that I’m not the only one seeing it as it is

            keep looking the other way LOL

          • thomasaikenhead

            MissDemeanour,

            Personal comments about me are no substitute for debate, are they?

            Just admit, you made a false claim about support for Israel increasing, your were called to account for it, provided with several detailed examples proving just the opposite and could not refute them or provide any evidence to support your original claim, could you?

          • MissDemeanor

            i can not ‘debate’ with the mentally challenged autistics of this world

            it’ wouldn;t seem fair

          • thomasaikenhead

            MissDemeanour,

            You are totally unable to debate anything as your comments have made very clear!

            You made a false claim, were challenged about it, could not deny let alone refute the facts presented that proved you wrong and resorted to personal abuse when you were caught out!

      • global city

        The BDS is an unmitigated failure. I imagine that if anything it has led to increased sales and utilisation of Israeli services in solidarity.

        Only Left wing idiots ignore things like the Hamas charter that clearly explains why Israel is not the aggressor in this huge dispute. Once ordinary people understand the context sympathy and support for Israel increases, except amongst idiot or evil left wingers.

        • thomasaikenhead

          global city,

          The BDS is not an unmitigated failure at all, it is a growing movement that is proving increasingly effective in persuading individuals and organisations to boycott Israel, it has caused increasing debate amongst institutions about divestment in Israel on moral grounds and it is only a matter of time before sanctions begin to be applied against Israel.

          Do feel free to provide any credible evidence that shows increased sales and utilisation of Israeli services in solidarity.

          To be fair, you are hardly alone on this thread in claiming increased support for Israel but being unable to provide any concrete evidence to support the claim.

          Denial is not just a river in Egypt!

          • Damaris Tighe

            BDS has the nasty flavour of the boycott of Jewish businesses in 1930s Germany.

          • thomasaikenhead

            Not at all, it is just a question of individuals not wishing to endorse the policies of a state that they find unacceptable and and organisations preferring not to invest and support such a state.

          • TimeandtheRani

            Christ dude, give the 1930s a rest. You do realise that everything about the power dynamic is completely different to then? Israel is a rich, US backed, heavily armed military power, it’s not some plucky little underdog.

          • Damaris Tighe

            But that’s exactly why you dislike Israel – because it’s doing well. Like most lefties you have a knee-jerk reaction against success in all its forms, & a knee-jerk sympathy for failure.

          • TimeandtheRani

            This has nothing to do with left and right. I’m not sure why you think someone with an online subscription to the Spectator would be some kind of far-leftie, but whatever. But really, “left-wingers hate success”? What an intellectually lazy hack comment that is.

          • Damaris Tighe

            I’m thinking of the ‘all must have prizes’ culture in schools, their dislike of competitive sports, & a welfare system that rewards bad decisions instead of responsibility. I think all these preferences constitute the world-view that automatically favours the Gazans & excoriates the Israelis.

          • TimeandtheRani

            Well, given the Democratic Party in the US is very
            pro-Israel, we have organisations like Labour Friends of Israel, and many on
            the Ron Paul and isolationist right in both countries are opposed to support
            for Israel, I would suggest that it’s
            not the case, and that there is nothing specifically left-wing about being opposed
            to Israel’s actions in the Middle East.

          • Mike

            I think you’ll find the Republicans are more supportive of Israel than the Democrats especially with Obama as POTUS.

          • sarah_13

            “dude” – some people take the attack of a middle aged jewish woman by young muslim men claiming to be pro-palestinian on oxford yesterday very seriously. Some here take the besieging of a synagogue in paris at the weekend with a crowd shouting “kill the jews” and “slaughter the jews” seriously. Some here take the the slashing of jewish students in paris very seriously, not to mention the cold blooded murder of jewish children last year seriously. So “dude” you may want to give it a rest yourself because “rich” has nothing to do with this but hatred of jews seems to and to be what we find beneath the veneer of pro-palestinian activism.

          • thomasaikenhead

            sarah13,

            What are your thoughts on the middle-aged Jewish woman attacked by religious extremists on a bus in Jerusalem because she refused to sit at the back of the bus?

            She was reviled, spat upon and beaten?

            When a gang of men set upon a middle-aged Jewish woman it is not necessarily because she is Jewish, after all those who attacked Miriam Shear were themselves Jewish!

          • sarah_13

            It does not add to it in anyway. The hatred exhibited by these individuals in london, in Paris, in turkey and london is vile Jew hatred . The reason we know this is because the attackers actually said so, expressly. You can see this hatred expressed on comments here, see your fellow traveller Nadine Babie her comments are instructive. See her vile murderous comments, one of your other fellow travellers was a bit shocked to learn that Nadine considers all Jews zionists! News to her as she’s jewish and thought they were on the same side. rich has nothing to do with, vile hatred of Jews does and those who aren’t fully aware of the agenda are useful idiots for their cause.

            If you wanted to help the Palestinians getting rid of Hamas and stopping their rockets would be the first priority. This is not the intention of your marches. shame on you.

          • thomasaikenhead

            sarah13,

            You are beginning to discredit yourself by your crude attempt to link me with another person and label me a ‘fellow traveller’.

            It just serves to demonstrate that you cannot address the issues I raised, refute the facts I cited or provide a credible reaction.

            When have I EVER indicated my desire to help the Palestinians?

            What I have done is merely point the failure of fallacy and hypocrisy of your position about an attack on a Jewish woman!

            As long as Israel tolerates and even accepts attacks, by fellow Jews, upon Jewish women, it can hardly complain about attacks on Jewish women elsewhere, can it?

            Does the name Rosa Parks mean anything to you at all?

          • sarah_13

            You sir discredit yourself, it is you exhibits fallacy after fallacy.

            “As long as Israel tolerates and even accepts attacks, by fellow jews, upon jewish women, it can hardly complain about attacks on Jewsih women elsewhere, can it?”

            Even if it were, which I dispute this, unpunished to assault someone in Israel which their criminal law would oppose, even if that is the case. The point is a Jew living in Berlin or London has nothing to do with Israel. There fore what a mad person who is jewish in israel does has no baring on or justification for violently attacking a women in london. You betray your conflation of Israeli Jew and a jew . But then you are aware of this. That sir is my point.

          • thomasaikenhead

            sarah_13,

            Your point is not clear1

            It was not a single ‘mad person’ in Jerusalem who attacked Miriam Shear, it was a group of ultra-Orthodox men!

            Her assault was not a single incident but rather an example of the misogyny that permeates the ultra-Orthodox community in Israel.

            There are countless examples of the hatred of women that typify these people and their values.

            There is no conflation involved at all in referring to these events.

          • global city

            yes it is…it is a bad campaign, promoted by bad people with bad motives… then there are the stupid sheep that blindly follow.

            YOU provide the evidence of this mass support for the BDS and the demonisation of Israel.

            I have trouble getting beyond the Mersey nowadays, so denial is beyond me.

          • thomasaikenhead

            global,

            You pose a trick question, I never claimed that Israel is being demonised so I do not have to prove it.

            As for the BDS movement, its success are a matter of record, including one of the largest security companies in the world, G4S, deciding to end doing business in Israel once current contracts with Israeli prisons expire after coming under shareholder pressure when the Bill Gates foundation sold its G4S shares as did the Methodist Church.

            Prominent human rights activists like Bishop Desmond Tutu and Alice Walker support the BDS, Danske Bank blacklisted Bank Hapaolim specifically for “acting against the rules of international humanitarian law” so a wide variety of individuals and organisations are increasingly supporting the campaign.

            Israel is being subjected to ever closer scrutiny and being held to account for its actions.

            Trying to demonise BDS supporters as either bad or stupid is hardly going to help Israel.

            There way forward is engagement and constructive debate, not abuse!

          • global city

            but, it’s a complete failure. It may be helping the usual western suspects to feel good about themselves but the BDS has had no impact.

            You can only support BDS of Israel if you believe all the BS about the country, or are prepared to disregard the true and essential nature of Israel AND of the dispute in order to be happy joining that particular bandwagon.

          • Martin Newman

            If you approve of divesting and boycotting Israel, why are you using your computer?

      • MissDemeanor

        LMAO

        yeah, BDS crowd with their laptops and mobile phones organising Israeli boycotting events on Facebook!

        yeah, sure, people take them seriously, why not…

        • thomasaikenhead

          MissDemaenour,

          The ‘Ostrich defence’ of burying your head in the sand has not be proven to be an effective defence in the past.

          By all means ignore the BDS movement and dismiss it but then you will have to live with the consequences.

          ‘Never underestimate the enemy’ is an old saying, but one that you have clearly not taken to heart.

          Your approach is a bit like the approach Israel adopted in the run up to the Lebanon War of 2006, the result was a stunning victory for Hezbollah, a humiliating defeat for Israel and yet another blow to the credibility of the IDF as an effective fighting force.

          Do read the two Winograd Commission reports for the details of the negligence and incompetence of both political and military leaders in Israel.

          • MissDemeanor

            you’re like an autistic parrot

          • thomasaikenhead

            MissDemenaour,

            If you can’t attack the argument, attack the man?

            Making personal comments out of frustration because you have been caught out making a false claim only serves to undermine your credibility further!

          • MissDemeanor

            ^ i rest my case

            (this guy is so dumb, with every comment he shows his autistic patroness more and more)

            LMFAO

          • thomasaikenhead

            MissDemeanour,

            You have no case to rest.

            You made a false claim that support for Israel was increasing,were publicly exposed, could not provide anything to support your point and resorted to personal abuse.

            You really will have to do better if you want to retain any credibility when you comment here!

        • Shazza

          Yeah, using Israeli technology! Oh the irony.

          They should use moslem technology – oh wait….

      • will91

        Quite frankly, I don’t think Israel gives a shit about what some placard waving idiots at a British university want. I don’t think Israel has much time for the opinion of an openly anti-semitic rabble in Paris, who assaulted “Jews” not Israelis and laid siege to a Synagouge for 6 hours. (Don’t worry your forgiven for not hearing about this, the BBC doesn’t like to report this, just like it didn’t like to report on the muslim man who killed 3 jews in Brussels or the muslim woman who killed a primary school teacher in France 2 weeks ago).

        These “demonstrations” are secondary compared to Israels duty to protect it’s citizens.

        • thomasaikenhead

          will91,

          You do not seem aware of the events in Paris that led to people remaining inside the synagogue for several hours.

          A peaceful protest against Israeli actions in Gaza was attacked by a group that emerged from the synagogue, a group that included members of the Jewish Defence League and Betar, and it was their actions that sparked the incident.

          The Jewish Defence League, classified as a terrorist group by the FBI, has a long history of aggressive violence in France and elsewhere and so it is no surprise to hear that they were caused the violence in Paris.

          As for Israel protecting its citizens, my point is that the strategies and policies employed are clearly failing to do so and simply continuing to repeat them despite the very obvious fact that they do not work is not best serving the people of Israel.

          • Shazza

            That is the version that Leftie rags like Huffington Post put out.

            Go to the Gates of Vienna site or Vlad Tepes and you will see the original footage of what really happened.

            The television channel France 24 covered it and told the truth. Their footage clearly showed the attack on the synagogue by these deranged savages.

          • thomasaikenhead

            Shazza,

            There is nothing left-wing about the FBI which had good reason to define the Jewish Defence League as a terrorist organisation.

            Do you know what a JDL member, Baruch Goldstein, did when he desecrated the Cave of the Patriarchs site?

          • Shazza

            I’m not talking about the JDL I’m talking about the attacks on the synagogues. Frontpage Mag (Daniel Greenfield) also has coverage of the attacks.

            BTW The UN designated Hama to be a terrorist organisation – not ‘militant’ as so coyly described by both the BBC,Sky etc.

            Any Jew now not wishing to be slaughtered by deranged, hate filled moslems is to be labelled ‘terrorist’?

          • thomasaikenhead

            Shazza,

            the JDL was invoked in the attack on the peaceful protest against Israeli actions in Gaza and it was this that provoked the incident at the synagogue, or do you deny JDL involvement in the events of that day?

          • Shazza

            The JDL responded to the attack on the synagogue. Good on them.

          • thomasaikenhead

            Shaza,

            No, the JDL did not respond to the attack on the synagogue, they caused the attack by launching an assault on peaceful protesters.

            Acting as an agent provocateur, the JDL were taken by surprise at the ferocity of the faction they provoked and fled to the synagogue to seek refuge, THAT was what caused the synagogue to be surrounded!

          • Shazza

            When referring to moslems ‘peaceful protesters’ is an oxymoron.

          • Martin Newman

            You must have watched different footage to me. Peaceful protest???

    • Jackthesmilingblack

      Yes, why were the Jews so unpopular?

      • Shazza

        Fantastic post – may Israel prosper, a shining jewel of civilisation totally surrounded by states wallowing in ignorance, hatred, barbarity and wishing to take all of us, not just brave Israel, back to the Dark Age 7th century.

        • Shazza

          Error alert!!! This post of mine was addressed to Spartanzz.

    • global city

      People like Bonkim do not care to understand that wider context. Israel cannot make peace, as the peace terms can only be based on the death of all the Jews.

      • thomasaikenhead

        global city,

        Are you totally unaware of the Camp David Accords that bought about a lasting peace between Israel and the most populous Arab nation, Egypt?

        • global city

          Of course. A chink of light in a sea of misery, bad faith and religious nuttery.

          Thankfully, with the coup against the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt this situation may be restored.

          Are you totally unaware, for example, that even just last week, ‘our man’ in democratic Iraq was blaming Jews and infidels (that’s us) for the problems with ISIS? This Jew hate trips off the tongue of even the most ‘modertate’ of Arab/Muslim politicos… they can’t help themselves.

        • global city

          I answered your post, but it seems to have gone missing!

          yes, of course I know about the Camp David agreement…and who killed it off in the end. The whole Mid East thing is not like some football match, were you just pick a side to support. The intractability of it all is utterly heartbreaking for any decent minded person.

          The basic point though comes down to issues like; In an ideal world the Israelis would prefer it if their artillery barrages led to no civilian casualties, whilst Hamas and the other evil groups would love it if every crappy rocket they launched wiped out a Jew nursery. In essence that is the difference between the two sides and why you have to back Israel, if you believe in it’s right to exist, which I do.

          How many Jews, or just supporters of Israel run out into the street ululating when ever yet another Palestinian kid is blown to smithereens? That’s another vital difference.

    • William_Brown

      “…western intel suggest over 25% subscribe to the hardline version.”
      Source please……and define ‘hard line’ version of Islam.
      Otherwise, I agree with your (and Dawkins’) stance.

      • Spartanzz

        Sure! Please watch the whole video for maximum effect. Brigitte Gabriel, she’s a journalist with expertise on Islamic terrorism. (She’s also muslim)

        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ry3NzkAOo3s

        She estimates the numbers based on CIA intel at circa 15-25%.

        In answer to your second question, we encourage you to “know your enemy” and study intently the Qu’ran and Sunnah, you’ll learn everything you need to know. Have an Islamic scholar on hand to help you with interpretation. You’ll need quite a few months before you’re able to draw your own conclusions. Check back and let me know how you get on.

        Of course in Israel we have some of the best intel agencies in the world, so we’re able to gather our own data based on the direct threats we face to our way of life. We also work closely with other agencies corroborating, checking, validating data.

        Mossad & Shin Bet, you’ve possibly heard of them before.

    • Mike

      An excellent piece and was ever it so for the PC liberals in the west.

      I’ve long said they have a rule book just like you might have when playing a game of cards that tells you what card/hand trumps what. In their case the game is a very sick one deciding whether religion or culture trumps homophobia, treating women as chattels and even ignoring murder and underage sex abuse.

      I’ve long asked them to show us this perverse rule book but true to form, they’re in denial so they can ignore the killing of gays based on religious grounds or ignore women being killed for refusing enforced marriage.

      The very people claiming to be compassionate are the very ones that have created this mess in the west and it will all end in tears, of that I am sure.

    • Hegelguy

      It seems very unfair to say the least to make Arabs pay for the crimes of Germans against Jews. I do not know of any people anywhere who would agree to the loss of their territory to aliens who arrive from far off lands saying their ancestors had been there thousands of years ago. Expecting Palestinians to agree to such a claim is preposterous. If there was to be a Jewish state it should have been in Germany or Austria, not Palestine.

      As for the future of an Israel going down the path of refusing any reasonable deal with the Arabs to exchange territory for peace, that cannot be good. As the Arab populations grow inexorably and Israel becomes more and more besieged, the richer and professionally qualified Israelis will leave. Israel will slowly collapse. The US as it becomes more Asian and Latino will lose interest in guaranteeing it.

      The Arabs are certainly fighting their cause in a very foolish way. That is true enough. Instead of stressing the obvious injustice of their being made to pay for German crimes, they have lapsed into extreme Islam – exactly the wrong way to go. But all the same, numbers and the basic justice of the situation is on their side.

      • Martin Newman

        Jews lived in Palestine (which was not in fact a country) since time in memorial. Judea means land of the Jews. The Palestinian Jews formed four Battalions of Royal Fusiliers to support Britain and her allies during WWI. In WWII Palestinian Jews formed a full Jewish Infantry Brigade to fight with us while the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem was hob nobbing with Adolf and encouraging his followers to join the Nazis. He encouraged the Arabs (who were actually Jordanians if you want to be precise) to leave on the promise that if they left their homes and joined forces they would annihilate the Jews. They could have stayed in Transjordan, the land allocated to them, lived in peace and prospered. In recent times Israel gave Gaza back and look what happened.

        • Hegelguy

          I do not know of any people anywhere who would agree to the loss of their territory to aliens who arrive from far off lands saying their ancestors had been there thousands of years ago. Expecting Palestinians to agree to such a claim is preposterous. If there was to be a Jewish state it should have been in Germany or Austria, not Palestine.

          • Jackthesmilingblack

            Or even Germany and Austria.

        • thomasaikenhead

          Martin Newman,

          “In WWII Palestinian Jews formed a full Jewish Infantry Brigade to fight with us…”

          For some reason you completely fail to mention the activities of other Jews during WWII as the British Empire fought ‘Adolf’.

          Come on, you know who I mean, the Jewish terrorists who murdered Lord Moyne in Egypt.

          The Jewish terrorists who attacked British military and officials in Plestine during the war. Ze’ev Jacobtinsky who colluded with Fascist Italy.

          Now are you genuinely unaware of the Jewish terrorists who fought against the British at the very moment that were fighting Hitler?

          • Martin Newman

            I am totally aware of what the Stern gang and the like did and it was condemned by world Jewry. It was abhorrent. Jews, unlike Hamas, are not crying out for genocide of other races (OK they also have a few right wing extremists but Israel has an independent Judiciary to deal with this . The Stern gang also murdered Jewish members of HM Forces who fought against them. A significant number of Jewish officers and civil servants were killed in the King David Hotel bombing but it was not applauded on the streets of Britain and France. But get it in perspective ~ we are talking about a relatively small group, disowned by most Jews against the much more significant effort of the Jewish people to support the allies. You obviously have all the answers ~ I suspect your motives are more than just support for the innocent Palestinians who are being manipulated by Hamas and for that reason I do not wish to waste my time continuing this dialogue with you. And by the way ~ have you seen today’s news? ISIS has ordered all Christians to convert or move out of Mosel or pay a tax! The beheading will come next. I suggested you read Col Richard Kemp. You obviously haven’t. End of conversation.

          • thomasaikenhead

            Martin Newman,

            “I suspect your motives are more than just support for the innocent Palestinians…”

            You are absolutely correct, my support is also for Israeli civilians and military who lose their life or limbs in a futile conflict!

          • Martin Newman

            In which case I commend your motives

          • thomasaikenhead

            Martin Newman,

            Thank you!

            I may very well adopt positions that oppose some of the policies of the Israeli government or military and disagree with zionists but I have never denied the legitimacy of Israel behind pre-1967 borders, have never supported terrorism from either side of those borders and have consistently argued for restraint, always commented in favour of dialogue and diplomacy and always totally reject the idea that any ‘military option’ by Israel, Fatah or Hamas will ever bring a resolution to this situation.

            Despite the current situation, I remain optimistic that it is perfectly possible for Israel and the Palestinians to reach a ‘land for peace’ deal.

            Any such deal will involve compromises, the pre-1967 borders will need to be adjusted to reflect the ‘fact on the ground’, the ‘right to return’ for Arabs who left Israel will need to be managed, settlers who leave the West Bank will need to be compensated and provided with new homes and jobs but none of these issues are impossible.

            As for the security of Israel, that is easy, Palestine will be a demilitarised star just like Costa Rica with a police force and paramilitary units but no navy, military air force or army.

            The present status quo cannot be sustained, a ‘one state’ solution will mean that Jews will be in a minority in one or two generations so a viable two-state solution is the only answer.

          • thomasaikenhead

            Martin,

            “You obviously have all the answers ~ I suspect your motives are more than just support for the innocent Palestinians who are being manipulated by Hamas and for that reason I do not wish to waste my time continuing this dialogue with you.”

            I have never, ever claimed to have all the answers, I have merely made some observations about the current situation.

          • Martin Newman

            Fair comment. I doubt any of us have the answers.

    • Hegelguy

      There is no justice in making Arabs pay for German crimes against Jews.
      In the long run Israel will wither away as the rich and the professionals leave. The alternative is a decent peace deal but that seems impossible.

    • sebastian2

      Superb. Really superb.

  • Bonkim

    Israel carved out of Arab lands is atonement for the sins of Christian Europe’s two millennia of persecution and genocide of Jews. So Melanie who will atone for the persecution and genocide of Arabs in the future?

    • https://belasariust.wordpress.com/ solly gratia

      I love it when people say things like that. the very UN people call upon to do something about Israel is the same UN that created Israel. Of course, if Israel wasn’t there, the area would be carved up between Egypt, Jordan and Syria, those beacons of democracy, human rights and economic growth. there certainly wouldn’t be a palestinian state because the rest of the arab world loathes palestinians.

      • thomasaikenhead

        solly,

        That would be the UN whose ambassador, Count Folke Bernadotte, was murdered by Jewish terrorists for trying to bring about peace between Arab and Jew back in 1948?

      • global city

        and all of those Palestinians would be much worse off than Arab Israelis are now.

        The truth of the ‘apartheid state’ is quite embarrassing for silly old lefties.

    • beenzrgud

      There are plenty of crazies on both sides, but don’t try telling anyone round here, they’re not interested.You’re on stony ground !
      There are more than enough moderates who just want the chance to get on with their lives, but they never get any media exposure or enough resources to make anything happen. They’re just caught in the middle of a sh*tstorm.

      • Damaris Tighe

        Sadly, that’s true of both Israelis & Palestinians.

        • beenzrgud

          I agree, I thought that was the general gist of my comment.

    • Augustus

      No, Israel was carved out of defeated Turkish sovereign lands by the victorious allied powers against the Ottomans who had sided with Germany during the First World War, which were placed under administration by those powers. An administration which dealt not only with claims of the Zionist Organization, but also the Arab National movement, the Kurds, the Assyrians and the Armenians. The Arabs actually received most of those former Turkish lands. The whole of Palestine, however, which at the time also included present-day Jordan, was reserved exclusively for the Jewish people as their future national home and future independent state. Despite that fact the Jewish State was formed with only a fraction of what had been promised to them.

  • zanzamander

    Welcome back, Melanie and spot on as usual!

  • Peter Leighton

    I think you have no understanding ( at all ) of the military grade weapons and the devastation they cause that are being used on the civilian population in Gaza. Doesn’t it concern you in the slightest that twenty percent of the fatalities are children. Dead children, children turned into corpses ..get it? Killed on one side not the other. How can you defend that? I’m neither Jew nor Muslim, Palestinian or Israeli but I understand the mechanisms of injury and the deliberate use of force. The military of one side killing the civilians on the other. You used the phrase ‘psychotic bigotry’, I think it describes ( and many of the comments that support and criticise ) your article perfectly. I heard this phrase the other day, ‘ you don’t have to be muslim to support Gaza, just human’. I think it sums the situation up perfectly. They are killing children and you are justifying it.

    • JoeDM

      It is now well evidenced that Hamas are using children and other civilians as human shields for their missile sites and other military targets. An action that is worthy of the status as a terrorist organisation.

      Israel has every right to defend itself against the unprovoked missile attack.

      • Damaris Tighe

        As a group that has also used children as suicide bombers, why wouldn’t it?

    • JB_1966

      I agree that Hamas should stop forcing Palestinians to use their children as human shields.

    • will91

      The average age in the Gaza is 15. Younger casualties are an inevitably.

    • global city

      What would you have Israel do?

      Nobody revels in the death of children. That is a disgusting inference you made there…..but typical of the low morals of your bovine lefty.

      Do a simple mind exercise. Have Israel do what ever you think they should, then take your mind to how the Islamist fanatics would respond. Would there be peace, or would the war against the Jew move onto the next level? What does Israel’s enemies see as the ultimate end game for them? You can paint as many scenarios as you like, but all must end in one that is genuinely satisfactory to the stated enemies of Israel and the Jews.

      When you have answered all of those points you may come to realise that Israel is not the evil in this dispute.

      • beenzrgud

        Originally the idea was to divide the land in a reasonably equitable manner. For whatever reason a conflict ensued. We can argue all day about who threw the first stone but it doesn’t advance the discussion so I won’t. Obviously we have arrived at a stage where both sides are deeply entrenched, which doesn’t help. Both sides are rigid in their stance against the other so there is very little flexibility for solving the crisis. So how are we to increase our wriggleroom. Hamas is a relatively recent development, which I would suggest rose to power because the Palestinians felt they were getting a raw deal. Extremists groups often rise to power this way and there are many examples of this happening. I also suspect that they will lose influence if Palestinians can see there that the Israeli government are actually willing to push for a viable state for them. At the end of the day an equitable division of the land should still be the goal of this whole exercise. So for starters Israel should stop all expansion in the West Bank and make plans to remove/negotiate a settlement for the Israelis already there. There should be heavily invested programs with the aim of burying the hatchet. It will likely be a long and difficult process, but it certainly isn’t what I’m seeing from Israel at the moment. In fact it is quite the opposite. Also just because peace terms have been rejected in the past it does not mean that those same terms cannot be re-examined. At the moment it seems like it’s any excuse not to find peace, which is understandable from the extremists. No-one expects them to be reasonable, but what is Israel’s excuse.

        • wudyermucuss

          For whatever reason –
          No,the reason was that the Arabs rejected it,just like they rejected the latest peace proposal because,well,we can’t have the youknowhoos with their own tiny bit of non Islam dominated land now can we.

          • beenzrgud

            There are a lot of Arabs and not all are so pig headed, or stuck in the past. It time Israel started forming relationships with the Palestinians who just want to get on. There are lots of Isreali NGO’s who could make good use of funds if given the chance. Of course it’s going to take billions to sort this mess out, but it’s probably a drop in the ocean compared to what it’s going to cost to keep fighting Hamas.

    • wudyermucuss

      Civilians die in war,especially when,as with Hamas,they are deliberately placed in harm’s way.
      Hamas aims,deliberately,at children.
      This current escalation was sparked by the quite deliberate capture,torture,murder and mutilation of 3 Jewish children(as Arabs like to call late teens “children” I suppose Israel can too).
      Now you go away and justify all that.

  • Blindsideflanker

    For far too long the supporters of Israeli have attempted bestow on Israel a racial uniqueness of being ‘Semitic’, so anybody having an issue with Israel’s expansionist Zionism are motivated by anti Semitic racism .

    When that fails, seek to claim Israel’s beastliness to Palestinians as a Western bulwark to the Islamic hordes .

    I detest the Islam’s presence in the UK , which I believe will only lead to severe problems for our society, but attempting to make is Israel’s Zionism as the same cause as ours is a very big mistake.

    • JoeDM

      Such is the dilema of the BNP supporter – who do I hate most? Israel for being full of Jews or Palestine because it is full of muslims !!!!

      • Blindsideflanker

        Ah just because someone doesn’t wish to sucked into Israelis and Palestinians binary conflict, they have to be a BNP supporter.

  • thomasaikenhead

    “It’s the moral equivalence which is so devastating.”

    Absolutely Melanie, after all with a single Israeli casualty and hundreds of Palestinians killed, including many children and thousands more injured, it is indeed devastating to see commentators like yourself promoting the idea that the actions of the Israeli military in imposing collective punishment, using disproportionate force, implementing the Dahiya doctrine and slaughtering civilians is any any way equivalent to the single death of an Israeli!

    What is even more astonishing is the idea that these Israeli actions and policies might bring about safety and security for Israel?

    Time and time again Israel has tried these tactics and every single time has been an utter failure and a disaster for Israel but they seem to have learnt nothing at all from past failures.

    Operation Cast Lead did not stop the rockets, did not weaken Hamas and did not even find Gilad Shalit!

    The image of Israel suffered a devastating setback in the eyes of the international community, the Goldstone Report caused massive damage to Israel when it revealed the reality of Israeli actions and the impact on the defenceless Palestinian civilians and both Hamas and the BDS movement received a tremendous boost as a result of Israeli actions.

    • Damaris Tighe

      If the body count were strictly proportional you would be complaining that those nasty jews were implementing ‘an eye for an eye’.

      • thomasaikenhead

        Damaris Tighe,

        Glad to see that you concede that the body count IS disproportional.

        What Israel is implementing is the Dahiya Doctrine, what Israel fails to realise is that this doctrine is counter-productive.

        • Damaris Tighe

          No, I think proportionality has nothing whatsoever to do with conducting an effective defence.

          • thomasaikenhead

            Damaris Tight,

            The point is that Israel is NOT conducting an effective defence, is it.

            Every few years it conducts bombing raids and ground assaults and every time if fails to do so.

            Israeli tactics are not providing safety and security, the use of collective punishment, targeted assassinations, the mass slaughter of civilians, the Dahiya doctrine and so forth have seen Hamas remain in power, ever more rockets hitting Israel, the range of these rockets always increasing, the introduction of drones by Hamas.

            How much more evidence do you need that the defence of Israel is NOT effective?

          • Damaris Tighe

            On the contrary, Israel’s Iron Dome missile defence system is very effective which is why there are so few Israeli casualties.

            As for Hamas, who have hatred for Jews (& not just Israelis) written into their Charter, I don’t think they’re open to a love-fest.

          • thomasaikenhead

            It is yet to be proven if Iron Dome is effective and the absence of casualties is certainly not due to its deployment, there have been very few Israeli casualties in the past when rockets were fired before Iron Dome was deployed.

          • Damaris Tighe

            Well other nations certainly seem to think it’s effective – the orders are piling up.

          • thomasaikenhead

            Well the US Strategic Defece Initiative/Star Wars programme was also lauded when it started but was subsequently found to be a fraud too!

          • Damaris Tighe

            You’re determined to find fault with Israel, so I’m not going to bother.

          • thomasaikenhead

            Damaris,

            Pointing out that the current policies of the Israeli government are failing, have failed in the past and will continue to do so in the future, is not finding fault with Israel. per se, but rather simply simply an observation based on fact.

            There is a world of difference between objecting to certain policies of the Israeli government and finding fault with the state of Israel itself.

            My views are hardly unusual or radical, they are not even original. There are very large numbers of people in Israel who believe in land for peace, that do not think that the continued repression of the Palestinian people is a good thing nor in the best interests of Israel and its citizens and want different policies to be adopted.

            Peace Now and Breaking the Silence are just two examples of Israeli groups who have views similar to those I have expressed and who strive to end the aggressive, extreme and violent policies adopted by recent Israeli governments.

          • Damaris Tighe

            But even when I make the uncontroversial point that Iron Dome works, a point that even Israel’s detractors agree with, you want to deny it. You’re tying yourself in knots. If Iron Dome didn’t work then there would be even more reason for Israel to come down on Hamas like a ton of bricks.

            As for Peace Now & Breaking the Silence, it might surprise you to know that I have some sympathy with them.

          • thomasaikenhead

            Damaris,

            I have followed the development of Iron Dome since it was first proposed and continue to maintain a health scepticism about the claims made for its capability, its effectiveness, whether it provides value for money and it it does not consume resources that could be better deployed elsewhere.

            i am hardly alone in this, a recent article in The Economist acknowledges that more than the percent of rockets heading towards Israeli cities get through and away from urban centres the numbers are much higher.

            For a more detailed discussion of these points, I recommend the article ‘Iron Dome: the public relations weapon” by John Mecklin in the Bulletin of the atomic Scientists.

            As for Peace Now and Breaking the Silence, no I am not surprised that you have some sympathy for them, many reasonable people do.

          • wudyermucuss

            No,some do,not many.
            Iron Dome succeeds in preventing most Hamas rockets,just as the defence wall prevents the disproportionate slaughter of civilians that the Arabs perpetrated before.
            Peaceful deterrence of slaughter;most reasonable people would celebrate such measures.
            Shame the Hamas totalitarians don’t make the same effort to protect their citizens,rather than encouraging more “martyrs”.

          • thomasaikenhead

            wud,

            Did you read the article by John Mecklin?

            It is not a political article it is about the technical issues involved and how claims about the effectiveness of Iron Dome by vested interests need to be verified.

            “Iron Dome—Savior, or Sales Job?” by James Fallows is also well worth a read if you are interested in expert opinion about Iron Dome rather than political spin.

          • wudyermucuss

            It is not fact;Israel defends itself,prospers and flourishes;it is Hamas and the other islamist supremacists who are clearly failing,hence their resort,worldwide,to attacking civilians,something which you and your kind remain,well,absolutely silent about.

            very large numbers of people –
            Link please.
            Ah,2 organizations with a very specific agenda;hardly very large numbers.
            The vast majority of Jews and Israelis support Israel,her existence,her right to self defence from those who clearly wish her gone.

          • TimeandtheRani

            If the Iron Dome missile defense system is so effective, why on earth are Israel currently killing hundreds and hundreds of Palestinians?

          • Damaris Tighe

            I’d have thought that’s obvious:

            1) Some rockets still get through.

            2) No nation can allow it’s neighbour to fire hundreds of rockets at civilian areas go unpunished – it will only encourage them.

            3) Israel is aiming at military targets. If Hamas spent as much money on the welfare of its own people as it does on firing rockets at Israel, fewer civilians would get hurt.

          • wudyermucuss

            To eliminate rocket launchers and the people firing them.
            Dead civilians are the responsibility of Hamas who started the conflict and place their armaments in civilian locations.

          • wudyermucuss

            Israel successfully defends itself against the latest wave of attacks from Hamas.
            Very few Israelis injured or killed;lots of damage to Hamas.

            How much more evidence do you need that the defence of Israel is effective?

          • thomasaikenhead

            wud,

            It is not over yet, don’t start counting your chickens quite yet?

          • will91

            So Israel should merely remain content with being permanent target practice for Hamas rockets?

          • thomasaikenhead

            will,

            Clearly Israel is NOT target practice and not even an effective target for Hamas rockets because a single Israeli has been killed whilst hundred of Palestinians are now dead and thousands are wounded!

            The Gaza Strip is one of the most densely places on the planet. Due to the Israeli blockade, the inhabitants cannot leave Gaza.

            Israel continues to bomb and has now invaded.

            Do you recall Operation Cast Lead?

            It did not destroy Hamas, it did not stop the rockets and it did not find Gilad Shalit, did it?

            If Israel wants safety and security it will have to deal with Hamas directly and determine why the rockets are REALLY fired?

          • will91

            Oh that’s an easy one, the rockets are being fired by Hamas, a group which is a proxy of Iran. Both Iran and Hamas have outlined their genocidal intentions toward Israel. Thing is this happens so routinely it’s not even talked about, it’s just a given.

            Furthermore, a hundreds of thousands of Israelis live with the fear of Hamas rockets. Thankfully, Israel is a responsible government which has made provisions to protect it’s people. Please don’t hold this against Israel. Israel cares more about Israeli life AND Palestinian life, Hamas forces people to live on top of bunkers storing weaponry and fires rockets at Israel from right next to their homes. Israel gives warning to these people.

        • wudyermucuss

          the body count IS disproportional –
          A bit like when an Islamist fanatic blows up a cafe full of Jews then yes?

    • wudyermucuss

      Collective punishment is firing thousands of rocket at civilian targets,not targetting rocket launchers.

      What is even more astonishing is the idea that letting these rockets continue to rain down might bring about safety and security for Israel?

      Time and time again Israel has tried these tactics and every single time the rocket attacks have ceased.

      Hamas are Islamic terrorists,BDS their useful idiot supporters.

      From China to Iran,from Iran to Pakistan,the whole world is coming to see the true danger of Islamism,its supremacism,its historic links to the Nazis via al-husseini,its violence and fascist tendencies.
      Israel is in the forefront of the battle,and,frankly,simply hasn’t cared what people like yourself think.
      That,is a good thing.

      • thomasaikenhead

        wud,

        You seem confused about the concept of collective punishment.

        One Israeli has sided since the latest bout of rockets were fired, whereas hundreds of Palestinians have been killed and thousands wounded.

        So, which side has suffered the collective punishment?

        As for your analysis about the rockets and how to respond to them, I never claimed that Israel should allow the rockets to fall, but rather hold examine the reasons WHY the Palestinians launch barrages of rockets every few years.

        It is is response to actions taken by Israel, not an initiative taken by Hamas.

        As for the rockets ceasing, you have not understood the process. as Israel raises tensions, Hamas responds every few years by launching a barrage.

        The time between each barrage falls with every attack, the number of rockets fired increases and there range of rockets fired increases.

        Once the rockets barely got across the border into Israel, now everyone has seen footage of Israelis in Tel Aviv fleeing in terror!

        “Israel is in the forefront of the battle,and,frankly,simply hasn’t cared what people like yourself think.”

        Oh but it does, Israel really does care what others think, just look at the hysterical Israeli reaction to the Goldstone Report, to name but one example!

        How long before Israel returns to begging the international community to do something about the fact that Iran is a nuclear power?

    • LouAdams

      if you don’t like it just have your buddies stop firing rockets into Israeli population centers.

  • Jackthesmilingblack

    So, you’re Jewish.

    • JoeDM

      A statement worthy of 1930s Germany.

      • Jackthesmilingblack

        We let bygones be bygones, huh.
        What’s up Joe? Germany makes you jumpy?

    • will91

      Anti-semites don’t do subtlety, do they? Go and froth at the mouth elsewhere…

      • Jackthesmilingblack

        And Jews over react at the slightest provocation.

  • Hegelguy

    1

    Is there any other people anywhere on the globe who would give up their territory to accommodate strangers who claim it on grounds of ancestors having been there 2000 years ago? Would Brits? Would Canadians?

    The unhappy Palestinians are the last wretched victims of Hitler. There was a very good case for a Jewish state as a result of his persecutions but it was incredibly unjust to make Arabs pay for the sins of centuries of European Christian anti-Semitism that culminated in the Holocaust. Europe and America in effect made the Arabs pay for crimes against the Jews which had been committed in Europe. If there was to be a Jewish state it should have been set up in Germany or Austria. But of course that would have meant displacing Europeans and it was much easier to kick luckless Arab peasants around.

    This struggle will just go on until the Arabs become so overwhelmingly powerful that Israel, like South African Apartheid, becomes untenable.

    The US, Israel’s mainstay, is well on the way to becoming only the world’s number two power.

    Moreover, as it becomes more and more Latino and Asian, the US will lose interest in guaranteeing Israel.

    All the heated debate on this issue is wasted energy. For those with eyes to see the long term outcome is already clear. As Israel becomes more and more besieged and insecure, Israelis with money and professional qualifications will, like their white South African counterparts under late Apartheid, start to quietly emigrate to less stressful societies. Once that happens the die will be cast and Israel will slowly wither away.

    Aha, Israelis will respond, but we have the ultimate deterrent: nuclear weapons.

    Apartheid South Africa also had them, though, and they did not save it.

    The alternative for Israel to eventual dissolution is a decent peace deal now. But that is not going to happen.

    The failure of statesmanship was not Netanyahu”s: it was of Truman and Attlee in the 1940’s when they failed to stand firm and insist that the necessary Jewish state would be in Europe, not Palestine. (Germany or Austria).

    • wudyermucuss

      Just about everything you say is incorrect,(and a simple recopy/paste exercise).
      Everyone needs a hobby I guess.

      • Hegelguy

        I am still left appalled at the injustice of Arabs paying for German crimes. It cries to high heaven.
        Israel may get away with this for a while, but how long? The Arabs do not fight their cause well. I grant anyone that. Extremist Islam is precisely the wrong way to go in this situation. They should be highlighting rather the obvious injustice of Arabs paying for German crimes.
        Yet the Africans who faced apartheid were very incompetent too, as I well remember since I lived in Africa in the 1960s. Few had any confidence the apparently thriving and increasingly powerful South African regime would ever crumble. The black African states were a by-word for political shambles and chaos, and still are for that matter. The powerful West was on the side of South Africa. It seemed to have everything going for it. Yet where is it now?

        • mohdanga

          Going down the toilet like all the other African countries.

  • Hegelguy

    Or, alternatively, they are moved by some rudimentary sense of fairness.

    Is there any people anywhere on the globe who would give up their
    territory to accommodate strangers who claim it on grounds of ancestors
    having been there 2000 years ago? Would Brits? Canadians?

    The unhappy Palestinians are the last wretched victims of Hitler. There was a very
    good case for a Jewish state as a result of his persecutions but it was
    incredibly unjust to make Arabs pay for the sins of centuries of
    European Christian anti-Semitism that culminated in the Holocaust.
    Europe and America in effect made the Arabs pay for crimes against the
    Jews which had been committed in Europe. If there was to be a Jewish
    state it should have been set up in Germany or Austria. But of course
    that would have meant displacing Europeans and it was much easier to
    kick luckless Arab peasants around.

    This struggle will just go on
    until the Arabs become so overwhelmingly powerful that Israel, like
    South African Apartheid, becomes untenable.

    The US, Israel’s mainstay, is well on the way to becoming only the world’s number two power.

    Moreover, as it becomes more and more Latino and Asian, the US will lose interest in guaranteeing Israel.

    All the heated debate on this issue is wasted energy. For those with eyes
    to see the long term outcome is already clear. As Israel becomes more
    and more besieged and insecure, Israelis with money and professional
    qualifications will, like their white South African counterparts under
    late Apartheid, start to quietly emigrate to less stressful societies.
    Once that happens the die will be cast and Israel will slowly wither
    away.

    Aha, Israelis will respond, but we have the ultimate deterrent: nuclear weapons.

    Apartheid South Africa also had them, though, and they did not save it.

    The alternative for Israel to eventual dissolution is a decent peace deal now. But that is not going to happen.

    The failure of statesmanship was not Netanyahu”s: it was of Truman and
    Attlee in the 1940’s when they failed to stand firm and insist that the
    necessary Jewish state would be in Europe, not Palestine. (In Germany or
    Austria).

    • global city

      So… The Jews would rather have had a state in, say, Florida or Saxony, but the Yankees forced them to go to the land where they are surrounded by their fundamental foes?

      The whole Arabs paid the price for Hitler meme is the most ridiculous of the left wing flappery concerning the issue.

      • Hegelguy

        Is there any other people anywhere on the globe who would give up their territory to accommodate strangers who claim it on grounds of ancestors having been there 2000 years ago? Would Brits? Would Canadians?
        Why should Arabs pay the price for events in Europe? This is a matte of the most elementary fairness. If you were asked to shift from your country on the pretext of events in let us say China would you accept it ? Obviously not. Why not accord the Palestinians the same courtesy?

        • global city

          But you are missing out some really important points in putting forward your stupid bit of triangulation.

          • Hegelguy

            Why should Arabs pay the price for events in Europe? This is a matter of the most elementary fairness. If you were asked to shift from your country on the pretext of events in let us say China would you accept it ?

          • LouAdams

            Jews were the majority in Jerusalem prior to being ethnically cleansed by Islamic armies. Why should a people who came from Arabia by conquest have any more right to the land than Jews, especially since the majority of the so called Palestinians migrated to the area from surrounding countries Arafat was from Egypt and Abbas’s family is from Iraq.

          • Chris Morriss

            Maybe, but having to go all the way back to Saladin doesn’t make a very convincing argument.

          • LouAdams

            Jews were the majority in Jerusalem when the Jews were ethnically cleansed by invading Muslim armies in 1948

          • LouAdams

            when studying the history of Islam going back 1400 years to evaluate the consistencies it actually does.
            Look up the Arab words

            Hudna
            Taqqiya

        • wudyermucuss

          Is there any other people…. –
          Jews have a thousands year old presence in the area.
          Other massive population shifts,Pakistan,East Europe don’t seem to cause any problems at all.
          Arabs,(Palestinians),have vast territories;the Jews,one tiny piece.

          It is akin to Arabs blaming Jews for the problems of Arabs.

    • Sarka

      Where exactly in Germany or Austria would you have created a Jewish state?
      Germany especially was still a wreck, and having to absorb 13 million or so ethnic Germans displaced without compensation in order that the Poles and Czechs should have secure homelands! Austria meanwhile (which also had to absorb quite a few) was not even technically a defeated state, and is rather small – so how could you impose a Jewish homeland there?

      In 48/9 the main leader of a major power supporting Zionist endeavours was one J. Stalin.
      You talk as if Britain and the US made some decision, out of the blue, to set down a Jewish state in Palestine in the late 1940s. No they didn’t. There was a pre-history to all this and I advise you to read it.

      • Hegelguy

        Why should Arabs pay for what happened in Europe? Would you like to be made to lose your country because of events in let us say China? How about some elementary fairness?
        Austria is much bigger than Palestine and Austrian anti-Semitism was a prime mover in the Holocaust. So was the German ditto, even more so. Of course Germans and Austrians would have to make way for Jews to create a state. But that is the price they would pay for the Holocaust.
        Instead, Arabs paid it.

        • Augustus

          You keep repeating yourself. You’re stumped because you keep missing the ball. Who are you trying to convince? Certainly not Melanie Phillips, or anyone with the least bit of intelligence. Give it up!

        • anotherjoeblogs

          sounds like you were born in a palestian gramophone factory and innoculated with a palestinian gramophone needle. Wait…no that’s not possible…too industrious.

        • wudyermucuss

          No.
          Arabs were killing Jews before Hitler.
          They were Hitler’s enthusiastic allies,(see al husseini).
          You are either ignorant or deliberately lying.
          Either way,don’t come to a debate until you’ve at least had a cursory glance at the facts.

        • LouAdams

          Jews have been paying for the Antisemitism of Islam for 1400 years, maybe it’s time for the Islam to allow Jews some peace.

    • wudyermucuss

      Is there any people anywhere on the globe who would…………. –
      Jews have lived there for millenia.

      The unhappy Palestinians……… –
      No.
      Hitler’s ally in the region was al-husseini,Arafat’s Uncle.

      This struggle will just go on…….. –
      Until the Arabs and Islamists recognize Israel’s right to exist.

      Apartheid South Africa…. –
      Israel is a multi racial,multi ethnic secular Parliamentary Democracy with universal sufferage,unlike virtually every single one of the Arab countries which you strangely seem to find no reason to criticize at all.

      The failure of statesmanship……. –
      Why should Israel be in Austria and Germany,the countries that tried to genocide Jews?
      Palestine was not,is not,and,if the Arabs don’t sort themselves out,never will be,a country.

    • TNT

      It’s unlikely that the Arabs will become powerful. The oil will run dry, and by then factional violence will have caused many of their countries to implode anyway.

      • Chris Morriss

        That’s true. Let’s hope that a real alternative energy source will be commercialised soon, and the power of the oil-based Saudi dynasty will collapse. Remove their power, and it may well be that the region will stabilise

    • LouAdams

      There were more Jews in the middle east displaced than Arabs, what about them hegelguy?

    • LouAdams

      There were more Jews in the middle east displaced than Arabs, what about them hegelguy?

  • jack

    The BBC seeks equality in everything it say and does, and on this principal it seeks an equal number of casualties in a war. In order to show non bias, the corporation ( voice if the limp wristed west) wishes both sides to either not kill anyone or, if one side does kill then the other side should get one in return.

    • Damaris Tighe

      That’s because BBC journos, having never experienced an existential war in their own country (ie, where it matters to their own families) haven’t the faintest idea about war, how it has to be fought & what decisions have to be made.

      • JB_1966

        They will soon though.

        • TNT

          On Sunday 4 March 2001, Real IRA detonated a car bomb outside the BBC’s main news centre, on Wood Lane in the White City area of West London.

          The way it was reported, you would have thought that the world was about to end.

          • Damaris Tighe

            Ha ha, says it all TNT. When it’s in their own back yard, boy, it concentrates the mind wonderfully.

          • JB_1966

            I loved talking about that to my bbc mates. Mind you, cognitive dissonance ruled supreme even then when they all insisted that it wasn’t terrorists who were responsible but “dissidents”. As if there’s a difference.

      • TimeandtheRani

        Well this policy of indiscriminately killing civilians and children hasn’t worked so far, so why are they continuing it? Such a brutal policy surely requires results to justify it?

  • Deborah Anastas Godiva Thomas

    Thank you for this almost pitch-perfect summary of the situation. It is unbelievable how readily the British left in particular swallow the shallow claims of a terrorist organisation who will happily sacrifice their own children for their media war of attrition.

    Israel is by no means perfect, but it needs to be judged by the standards of having been surrounded by enemies for over 65 years. Since the day the Nation was conceived, it’s neighbours have vowed to destroy it and it’s Jewish population – it is no less a call for genocide.

    In contrast, in the 1990s, the running joke was that Israel was the “world’s largest Arab democracy”, with rights and freedoms only now even being discussed through the Arab Spring.

    The leaders of the Palestinian people have failed them so profoundly, with the media sometimes acting as their willing disciples.

  • Augustus

    “No concern at all for the Israelis…”

    The MSM has continued to focus on Gaza because, from its perspective, that’s where the bigger story lies. They might even have hoped that the fact that Hamas has managed to increase the range of its projectiles to central Israel and greater Jerusalem will have made it victorious. But, of course, every day that goes by, with Israelis residing in the land of Israel, drinking, eating, sleeping and going about their business, marks another day’s victory. Even though hundreds of millions of Muslims wish them ill every day, and hope that their day of destruction will come.

  • http://www.figurewizard.com/ figurewizard

    No surprise here regarding the BBC. All it’s good for these days is for parroting left wing propaganda in its current affairs programmes, while entertaining the long-suffering licence payer with repeats and repeats of repeats.

  • Catherine Waterman

    It’s a tragedy that the terrorist organisation Hamas is running Gaza. They don’t give a damn about the deaths of children or indeed any civilian. Their use of human shields, as can be seen in the above video posted by Melanie, is shocking beyond belief.

    If Hamas actually cared about the people of Gaza, they’d be building air raid shelters for the general populace. Of course, the rich are well protected in their own private shelters. Instead, Hamas spends untold sums on weaponry, aided and abetted by Iran. Indeed, this is a proxy war.
    Above all, if Hamas cared about the ordinary people, it would accept the two-state solution. We know that many attempts have been made to settle the dispute in this way, but to no avail.

    As in all wars, the innocent always suffer. It’s especially heart breaking to see maimed and dying children. I fear that Hamas will not stop until they have slaughtered all Jews (in accordance with the Hamas Charter) or until they have killed themselves in the attempt. They care little for this life because the Quran promises its martyrs an infinitely better life in Paradise.

    How on earth can Israel triumph over the brand of madness called Islamism? It’s beyond the capability of the rational mind.

  • anotherjoeblogs

    Just watched Sky news and they actually gave Mark Regev some space and didn’t interrupt him. The BBC, in the past, used to bombard him with scattergun questions with the intention of him losing his cool and blurting out some non-politically correct remarks and they never let him finish a sentence. Fascist bullies, they are.

    • Damaris Tighe

      Mark Regev is an excellent spokesman.

      • JackZ

        He’s superb. Israel has to have the Regev toughness as it faces such unique hostility from supposedly reasonable sources.

      • Chris Morriss

        Far from it: he’s Israel’s Goebbels.

  • Damaris Tighe

    Good article but I don’t like the title. The west is still not antisemitic, although muslims have imported a lot of antisemitism. And although antizionism & antisemitism often overlap, there are plenty of critics of Israel who, as much as I may disagree with them, aren’t antisemitic. There’s a danger in crying wolf & the antisemitism card like the racism card should not be used to suppress discussion.

    • LouAdams

      sure, anti Zionists judge Israel exactly the same way they judge Russia, China, Turkey, Iran, Syria, Britain, Sudan, Pakistan and all.
      Islamophobia was a term made of by CAIR, an active propaganda arm of the Muslim Brotherhood.

  • Damaris Tighe

    On the subject of Hamas & children I suggest readers go to Frontpage Mag & read Caroline Glick’s article of today’s date.

  • BeanHash

    This article is an incendiary right-wing farce. Nowhere in professional journalism should we hear the opinion that: ‘Solidarity for Palestinians and critique of Israel is
    anti-Semitic’ (to paraphrase). Yet this is what the sophistry of the title of this article (“The Anti-Semitic West almost wants Israel to suffer”) would have you believe.

    I’m relatively new to this debate. However, a small amount of reading will reveal
    that the current conflict is far from being about this particular set of rockets, or this particular body-count or reportage. It is a long-standing ethnic, religious, and territorial dispute that is mediated largely by a biased mainstream press, with outposts in the hegemonic bastions of Europe and Northern America. Perhaps I’m insulting your intelligence by stating this. But it does seem worth repeating when people are so one-sided on the issue.

    If we’re going to invoke historical anti-Semitism as a means of bolstering the urge of Israeli policy-makers to expand territory under the rubric of “homeland security” (or
    some such), then we risk completely annulling the atrocities committed by right-wing fanatics ON BOTH SIDES. Historically (that is, you know, with context!), it is unfortunately true that the body-count on the Palestinian side is vastly disproportionate to that of the Israelis – NOT just on this occasion, but since the conflict began. So please, check the facts on this and you might begin to understand why there is a growing disgruntlement with Israeli – not with “Jews”, but with “Israel” – read carefully.

    If, as the writer argues, “Islamic fanatics play by different rules” and use pernicious
    methods to indoctrinate their young (which, I agree, they do!), then it is
    precisely because of the historical decimation of their land and infrastructure. It is unfortunately the desperate and hideous last-resort of an ethnic group that faces, in some instances, death and injury and utter poverty, as well as the tangible threat of the entire theft of their homeland by a colonising power.

    I would argue – in response to this article’s title and its unthinking mainstream
    thrust – the so-called “Western Anti-semitism”, is in fact NOT anti-Semitism,
    but is rather a type of humanistic solidarity and a challenge to the land-hungry,
    blood-thirsty hegemons of the American-Israeli mainstream and their political
    attitudes.

    Another interesting fact that a small amount of reading will furnish you with is this:
    in Israel, there are various, multi-faceted beliefs. NOT ALL JEWS ARE
    PRO-ISRAELI. I hate to break it to you, but they’re called “Doves”, and they’re
    peace-loving, and are willing – in some instances – to make concessions to the
    Palestinians, in terms of land – the Israeli-occupied territories – THAT THEY
    DEEM was illegitimately colonised in recent history. So the bottom line is
    this: please stop demonising anti-Israeli thinkers by claiming that they’re
    anti-Semitic. It is not true. The holocaust was the most bloody and pernicious
    political crime of the 20th century. Unfortunately, some people will
    use this fact as means to further a much longer-standing, terrorist-inducing
    occupation, replete with war crimes and the battering of homes and livelihoods.

    If Hamas is a terrorist organisation, defied Sovereign status by the UN (indeed, I concur, it is), then the more persistent, more egregious murderer of Israel is a
    terrorist state that is unfortunately endorsed by the UN (I’m sure you won’t
    agree!).

    • wudyermucuss

      How would you explain the obsessive focus on what is actually a very small conflict?

      NOT ALL JEWS ARE
      PRO-ISRAELI –

      The majority are.
      No need to shout by the way.

      Regarding racism/antisemitism,well,who said all Jews were pro-Israeli?
      Right,no-one.
      Do you think any country has 100% support of its citizens?
      Of course not.
      Why should Israel be different.

      Some Jews,also,find it easier to,er,express anti Jewish/Israeli sentiments,as the environment can be very hostile.

      • BeanHash

        thanks Wudyernucuss. But you seem to have just re-iterated one of my points, not opposed it. I completely agree with what you’re saying, re: “why would any country be different”. My argument is directed specifically at the assumption of the article writer that: ‘opposition to Israel is anti-Semitism/opposition to Jews’. Whereas, a truer statement might read: ‘Opposition to right-wing hostile Israeli expansionism under Netenyahu, among others, is opposition to SOME PERNICIOUS POLITICALLY MOTIVATED Jews’. [I use capitals to emphasize a point. Apologies if this was not clear. There are no italics on this site, as far as I’m aware?]. – As regards the “excessive focus” – do you mean, of this current conflict? I’m afraid I don’t really see what you mean. IF there is an “excessive focus”, perhaps it is that the tide of mainstream neo-liberal opinion is shifting to understand the plight of the Palestinians. But let me get something straight. I’m not anti-Jew, or even anti-Israel, per se. I’m certainly anti-terror and certainly anti-neo-colonial, or anti-Israeli-expansionism… Is that something we disagree on? I deplore all forms of violence. Surely we concur?

        • BeanHash

          I’m still not sure if I’m being clear enough. I think what I meant to say, and I hope you understand/agree, is that the journalist here is the one who is making of Jews an homogenous lot. That is, she saying that by opposing Israeli military might, we are de facto anti-Semitic. This would have to mean that the journalist believes that ALL Jews are pro-Israel and pro-Israeli aggression, hence my argument to the contrary.

      • BeanHash

        I don’t know if you got my follow up to this? The Spectator doesn’t appear to want to let me post things?! Talk about stifling debate! Tried a number of times. Oh well. Read what I’ve written again if you have the time. Your points only affirm mine, they do not depart from what I was saying. I agree with you. “Of course not”, as you say, “Why should Israel be any different”. That is precisely what I was saying. There are ALWAYS multi-faceted view-points, in ANY country. I was purposefully making a simple, sarcastic comment to emphasize the fact that the author of this piece seems to conceive of “The West” and “Jews” as homogenous groups without divergent opinions or viewpoints. In other words, if I – a so-called “Westerner” – oppose “Israeli-expansion” and/or “Israeli-aggression” and “military exercise” – it does not means that oppose a homogenous group we can so callously terms “Jews”. I’m sure you know this and I’m labouring the same point over and over it seems. But you seemed to react angrily to what I was saying, without noticing the rhetorical strategy I was employing to make the same, obvious point that you have made in replying to me… I hope that makes better sense now?

        • BeanHash

          Also, I think opinion is significantly divided in Israel. I might be wrong. Like I say, I’m relatively new to this debate and not entirely which sources to trust, etc. But I came across this one here, at the Jewish Virtual Library (presumably a pro-Jewish organisation). https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Society_&_Culture/isposettle.html
          Seems to suggest an enormously conflicted domestic situation. I would re-iterate then, saying: “I am against Israeli-expansionism” does not mean “I am against Jews”, as numerous, considerate, intelligent, intellectual, or otherwise, Jewish people are increasingly taking stock of the atrocities committed a certain militarised faction of Israeli society, one that has enormous colonial ambitions and would like to see the annihilation of Palestinian territories… – Expansion has increased – not halted or decreased – increased under Netenyahu. This is relevant to the current conflict and the current terrorism of Hamas, is it not? What kind of emotional situation do you think you might be in if a larger power than yourself continued to flout international convention/opinion by demolishing your homes and prospects and murdering your people? I believe the actions of Hamas are as heinous as any other terrorist organisation, but if you can’t have a serious conversation about the context for this emergence, then the quest for peace is obviously doomed!

  • Koakona

    Melanie Phillips 19 July 2014 – is it me or is this blog from the future?

    • Chris Morriss

      Probably, she has come to believe that she is omniscient.

  • mandelson

    Mel – tragically you are wasting your time – the left liberal/islamist psycopathy toward Israel (actually Jews) is rigidly embedded in their DNA and reason cannot alter that.

    • BeanHash

      haha! Yes. Excellent comment. Oh wait, no, “embedded in their DNA”. Hmmmm… are you a racist per chance Mr Mandelson? I take it all back. Everything about the comment was good except what was actually said in it. The bit about what you said was bad.

      • LouAdams

        He is just referring to the history of Europe and that it has been consistently and violently perpetuated for for centuries. May be you have a better way to explain it.

        • BeanHash

          To say that something is embedded in someone’s DNA is a racist statement. If it is meant metaphorically, in any case it is still absurd and simply bolsters the article’s stance that any opposition to Israel is anti-Semitic. Grow up and have a serious discussion. The holocaust was awful. The Jewish diaspora is a tragic affair. I love Jews. I also love Palestinians. Should I have to repeat that every single time I critique something about the way Israel conducts itself? Is Israel somehow immune to criticism? What’s the problem here?

          • LouAdams

            It’s been sad that the Pols take in anti Semitism with their mothers milk, if you are not comfortable with DNA you may choose the other option. But what you cannot deny is that Muslims have been murdering Jews since it’s very first days of Mohammed 1400 years ago.

        • BeanHash

          The main point that I am making on here Lou, is that we MUST stop pretending that a criticism of Israel is also an anti-Semitic thing. You can critique the colonial or neo-colonial actions of Britain, France or the USA without being accused of racism. It is matter of politics. Not ethnic prejudice. Do you not agree?

          • LouAdams

            Antisemitism is judging Jews by a different standard than you judge others, I think it’s pretty obvious that Israel is judged by a completely different standard than Russia, Turkey, China, or any Muslim country.

          • BeanHash

            I’m sorry if my comments to you here are all out of place. The website does not load properly for me for some reason. I think it’s because I’m not a subscriber. – The problem here LouAdams, is that you have not read my comment carefully enough. You have just reproduced the exact misconception that I have laboured to dispel. You cannot equate “Israel” with “Jews”. Vast amount of Jews deplore the colonialism of the British empire and the neo-Colonial occupation of Israel. So your definition of “anti-Semitism” as a mode of judging Israel by different standard to China or Russia, Turkey or any other country, is very very flawed. It is precisely what I was trying to point out, and is exactly what this article does. “Anti-Semitism” and measured criticism of Israel are not the same things. I believe I’m self-reflexive enough to know that I have inherited SOME left-wing bias, and it has been enormously enriching to come on here and hear other people’s view points. But my main point stands: stop equating criticism of Israel with “anti-Semitism”. The conversation goes absolutely nowhere when you do this. It is not possible to discuss history seriously, if this is your reduction.

        • BeanHash

          The main point that I am making on here Lou, is that we MUST stop pretending that a criticism of Israel is also an anti-Semitic thing. You can critique the colonial or neo-colonial actions of Britain, France or the USA without being accused of racism. It is matter of politics. Not ethnic prejudice. Do you not agree? ///

        • BeanHash

          If I said to you, Lou, that “hatred of Muslim and Arabs is in the Jewish DNA”, would you agree? I hope you wouldn’t, because that would mean that Jewish people are pre-disposed to racism and bigotry. It is incendiary, irresponsible commentary like this that prevents us from moving forward.

          • LouAdams

            Since Israeli schools don’t teach thir children to hate and murder Mujslims
            Since Muslims in Israel have more rights and freedoms than in any of the

    • JackZ

      Oh come on, let’s not get stupid. Embedded in their DNA??

  • BeanHash

    haha! Has my not-right-wing comment been censored or are you having issues with your website?

  • BeanHash

    This article is an incendiary right-wing farce. Nowhere in professional journalism should we hear the opinion that: ‘Solidarity for Palestinians and critique of Israel is
    anti-Semitic’ (to paraphrase). Yet this is what the sophistry of the title of this article (“The Anti-Semitic West almost wants Israel to suffer”) would have you believe.

    I’m relatively new to this debate. However, a small amount of reading will reveal
    that the current conflict is far from being about this particular set of rockets, or this particular body-count or reportage. It is a long-standing ethnic, religious, and territorial dispute that is mediated largely by a biased mainstream press, with outposts in the hegemonic bastions of Europe and Northern America. Perhaps I’m insulting your intelligence by stating this. But it does seem worth repeating when people are so one-sided on the issue.

    If we’re going to invoke historical anti-Semitism as a means of bolstering the urge of Israeli policy-makers to expand territory under the rubric of “homeland security” (or
    some such), then we risk completely annulling the atrocities committed by right-wing fanatics ON BOTH SIDES. Historically (that is, you know, with context!), it is unfortunately true that the body-count on the Palestinian side is vastly disproportionate to that of the Israelis – NOT just on this occasion, but since the conflict began. So please, check the facts on this and you might begin to understand why there is a growing disgruntlement with Israel – not with “Jews”, but with “Israel” – read carefully.

    If, as the writer argues, “Islamic fanatics play by different rules” and use pernicious
    methods to indoctrinate their young (which, I agree, they do!), then it is precisely because of the historical decimation of their land and infrastructure. It is unfortunately the desperate and hideous last-resort of an ethnic group that faces, in some instances, death and injury and utter poverty, as well as the tangible threat of the entire theft of their homeland by a colonising power.

    I would argue – in response to this article’s title and its unthinking mainstream
    thrust – the so-called “Western Anti-semitism”, is in fact NOT anti-Semitism,
    but is rather a type of humanistic solidarity and a challenge to the land-hungry,
    blood-thirsty hegemons of the American-Israeli mainstream and their political
    attitudes.

    Another interesting fact that a small amount of reading will furnish you with is this:
    in Israel, there are various, multi-faceted beliefs. NOT ALL JEWS ARE PRO-ISRAELI. I hate to break it to you, but they’re called “Doves”, and they’re
    peace-loving, and are willing – in some instances – to make concessions to the
    Palestinians, in terms of land – the Israeli-occupied territories – THAT THEY
    DEEM was illegitimately colonised in recent history. So the bottom line is
    this: please stop demonising anti-Israeli thinkers by claiming that they’re
    anti-Semitic. It is not true. The holocaust was the most bloody and pernicious
    political crime of the 20th century. Unfortunately, some people will
    use this fact as means to further a much longer-standing, terrorist-inducing
    occupation, replete with war crimes and the battering of homes and livelihoods.

    If Hamas is a terrorist organisation, defied Sovereign status by the UN (indeed, I concur, it is), then the more persistent, more egregious murderer of Israel is a
    terrorist state that is unfortunately endorsed by the UN (but, on this, I’m sure you won’t agree!).

    • Damaris Tighe

      This has already been posted BeanHash. You need to take one of them down.

      • BeanHash

        Thank you Damaris. On my screen, it only exists once. The first post has either been removed or is momentarily not visible to me??

        • Damaris Tighe

          The 2 posts still there BeanHash.

          • BeanHash

            Thanks again Damaris. Like I say, when I can see them, I will delete one of them. Is it a real issue? The Spectator website is not functioning properly for me at all. I’ve posted various times today and can only see certain messages of mine on here. So nothing I can do just yet I’m afraid. Thanks

          • Damaris Tighe

            No it’s not an issue!

      • BeanHash

        My reply to you does not appear here either. I’m not sure if you’ve seen it. Apologies for the apparent double post. I have re-loaded the Spectator website a number of times and only one rendition of the post appears in front of me. If another appears, I will delete one of them as soon as it does. Thanks for notifying me.

    • beenzrgud

      Extremist groups usually emerge when people feel they have little to lose. Just look at the EU and we can already start to see people turning to more extreme groups. I think Israel should certainly shoulder some of the blame for the emergence of Hamas. Unfortunately it is far more difficult to put the monster back in box once it’s got out. I can see Hamas going to some pretty extreme measures if ever the day comes where they start to lose their grip on power. Even if the crisis reaches an equitable solution there will still be fanatics that have to be dealt with. It’s the same every time an extremist group is created.

    • JackZ

      Hamas IS a terrorist organisation. Israel is a law abiding, democratic state. Happy to clear that up as you seem a little confused about it.

      • BeanHash

        JackZ. Thanks for your reply, but really this is no place for comedy; this is a serious issue affecting real human lives. Neither Hamas NOR the Israeli government are truly democratic and BOTH of are guilty of committing serious, heinous war-crimes against the other, all in the name of an abstract religio-political concept of land-ownership, based on scripture. BASED ON SCRIPTURE!!! – Have you seen this map? http://i.stack.imgur.com/hFZd0.jpg – Are you really trying to tell me you don’t think Israel has done anything wrong? Do you know about the continued territorial expansion under Netenyahu? Are you oblivious to this side of the argument? Have you seen the opinion polls conducted amongst Jews themselves, re: Israeli expansion? https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Society_&_Culture/isposettle.html – Have a look. And then have a serious, considerate moment to yourself. Think about humanity. What it means. Think about what you’re saying. Hamas is “terrorist”, I agree. It is deemed so by more-or-less the entire world. Israel is also deemed “terrorist” by a vast proportion of the world’s population. Ask Amnesty International or Human Rights Watch. Ask Russia, China, Africa, Australia, South America, even most of Europe. The only countries who are opposed to this definition are American and Israel itself. So I repeatedly plead with you, be fair with your analysis. Think about what you’re saying. And have some consideration for the human life on both sides of the equation.

        • JackZ

          Yes, I am trying to tell you that I don’t think Israel has done anything wrong. There is no equivalence here. Israel is not committing war crimes – Hamas is.

          • BeanHash

            You didn’t look at the map did you? And you didn’t look at the Israeli opinion polls, did you? This is not as clear cut as you’d like it to be, dear fellow. I feel sorry for you that you can’t engage seriously in a rigorous academic debate about a serious issue. Body-counts are in Israel’s favour, vastly. Land-ownership under Zionist occupation is in Israel’s favour, vastly. Monetary support from the world’s sole super-power is again vastly in Israel’s favour. LOOK AT THE MAP. I implore you. – I absolutely agree that Hamas is committing war crimes. Don’t you think that stealing land is also a crime? Don’t you think that bombing civilians is a war crime? Don’t you believe in the impartial analysis of research bodies like Amnesty International? Human Rights Watch?

          • BeanHash

            One question: do you think the West Bank and Gaza should become fully Israeli? Is that your aim? Where should the borders stop?

          • BeanHash

            Then JackZ, I’m sorry, but you’re just not a thoughtful or serious person.

          • JackZ

            I stand with Israel and not with racist war criminals.

          • BeanHash

            I appreciate your loyalty Jack, but aren’t you at least a tiny bit curious about the impartial, objective analyses of the various crises, over the course of the last 60 or so years? Question: Do you wish to see the destruction of all Palestinian land, if you’re so biased and hell-bent on supporting Israel? I’m genuinely interested now, are you a full, unrelenting Zionist?

          • JackZ

            Yes to the first question, no to the second. And something in-between to the third. I’m a Zionist, yes, but I’m not sure about the unrelenting bit. I’d prefer Israel to be behind the green line, and to stop building on Palestinian land. But I won’t agree to debate that presumes a moral equivalence between Hamas/Fatah and Israeli actions. There is none.

          • BeanHash

            Wow. Interesting. Are you Jewish? If not, why do you believe in the Jewish people’s right to a geographical region over, say, a the Muslim people’s right to the same region? Both claim it in scripture, right? In my opinion, both are entirely wrong on that one. – On the issue of moral equivalency, I think you might have made an assumption about what I’m arguing here. There are no moral equivalencies, not in any debate, not ever. The displacement of Palestinian refugees and the decimation of their homeland was wrong in the first place. Agreed? Or do you like the idea of displacing people and decimating their homeland? After this, the human shield and the terrorist bombings of Hamas are also wrong. Agreed? I assume so. But what is also wrong, and what continues in the pernicious vein of a neo-colonial behemoth, is the decision to continue to expand Israeli settlements in previously agreed Palestinian territory. You don’t have to be an expert on the conflict to know that this is grossly immoral and will likely to contribute to further terrorism, do you? Moral equivalency is a strange concept. But to suggest that Israel has never done anything wrong (including the displacements and the land-grabs and colonial expansion), is just a complete fabrication, isn’t it?

          • Damaris Tighe

            Beanhash, your posts are coming up double again – & as they’re quite long they’re taking up a lot of space!

          • BeanHash

            I know. It’s really annoying. I’m sorry, there’s nothing I can do about it. The Spectator site is not posting a lot of what I write. I have written numerous post and had to re-write them, due to it not appearing on my screen, despite re-loading the page. According to my interface, there is only one copy of each of the posts that I have made, and some of the post I have made have been lost in the ether. I’m sorry for the visual splurge! not my intention. I hate it when people repost things, like they desperately want everyone to read what they’re saying! ha! Not me, honestly. Just trying to guarantee I don’t lose what I’m writing, so having to repost when it doesn’t come up.

          • BeanHash

            Wow. Interesting. Are you Jewish? If not, why do you believe in the Jewish people’s right to a geographical region over, say, the Muslim people’s right to the same region? Both claim it in scripture, right? In my opinion, both are entirely wrong on that one. – On the issue of moral equivalency, I think you might have made an assumption about what I’m arguing here. There are no moral equivalencies, not in any debate, not ever. The displacement of Palestinian refugees and the decimation of their homeland was wrong in the first place. Agreed? Or do you like the idea of displacing people and decimating their homeland? After this, the human shield and the terrorist bombings of Hamas are also wrong. Agreed? I assume so. But what is also wrong, and what continues in the pernicious vein of a neo-colonial behemoth, is the decision to continue to expand Israeli settlements in previously agreed Palestinian territory. You don’t have to be an expert on the conflict to know that this is grossly immoral and will likely to contribute to further terrorism, do you? Moral equivalency is a strange concept. But to suggest that Israel has never done anything wrong (including the displacements and the land-grabs and colonial expansion), is just a complete fabrication, isn’t it? …

          • BeanHash

            Wow. Interesting. Are you Jewish? If not, why do you believe in the Jewish people’s right to a geographical region over, say, the Muslim people’s right to the same region? Both claim it in scripture, right? In my opinion, both are entirely wrong on that one. – On the issue of moral equivalency, I think you might have made an assumption about what I’m arguing here. There are no moral equivalencies, not in any debate, not ever. The displacement of Palestinian refugees and the decimation of their homeland was wrong in the first place. Agreed? Or do you like the idea of displacing people and decimating their homeland? After this, the human shield and the terrorist bombings of Hamas are also wrong. Agreed? I assume so. But what is also wrong, and what continues in the pernicious vein of a neo-colonial behemoth, is the decision to continue to expand Israeli settlements in previously agreed Palestinian territory. You don’t have to be an expert on the conflict to know that this is grossly immoral and will likely to contribute to further terrorism, do you? Moral equivalency is a strange concept. But to suggest that Israel has never done anything wrong (including the displacements and the land-grabs and colonial expansion), is just a complete fabrication, isn’t it?

          • JackZ

            No, I’m not Jewish. I’m a culturally-Christian atheist. To answer two of the questions you ask:

            “The displacement of Palestinian refugees and the decimation of their homeland was wrong in the first place. Agreed?” No, I don’t agree. I support the creation of Israel.

            I do agree with you re Israeli settlements in Palestinian territory. They’re wrong. I’d dismantle them tomorrow if I had the power.

          • BeanHash

            I’m not sure that I believe in any particular racial or religious groups “right” to piece of land. However, I do recognise the historical occupation of that land by Jews, BC. The thing that puzzles me is that you can’t see how this would make the Palestinians who lived there feel. And you can’t see that they also have a claim of ownership to the land, one that is equally based in scripture and historical tenure. If the argument is “who was there first”, then I’m afraid that modern science dictates that we’re all from Africa anyway, so this claim is historically absurd. – I’d love to hear a justification for the displacement of Palestinian families in the creation of Israel then? And I’d love to know why you think Jews belong in Israel anymore than Palestinians and why there shouldn’t have initially – under the auspices of the UN – been a single state, with Jews AND Palestinians, living side-by-side, with a world governing body facilitating the right-of-return for the Jewish diaspora? – It seems that the line of argument you pursue does not take stock of the fact that the Palestinians who were displaced were deeply, horrifically wronged – in many cases beaten or murdered, but certainly – by the hundreds of thousands – displaced from their homes. DO you like the thought of this happening to people? It seems to me to an enormous oversight, if that is your line of reasoning.

          • BeanHash

            I’m not sure that I believe in any particular racial or religious groups “right” to piece of land. However, I do recognise the historical occupation of that land by Jews, BC. The thing that puzzles me is that you can’t see how this would make the Palestinians who lived there feel. And you can’t see that they also have a claim of ownership to the land, one that is equally based in scripture and historical tenure. If the argument is “who was there first”, then I’m afraid that modern science dictates that we’re all from Africa anyway, so this claim is historically absurd. – I’d love to hear a justification for the displacement of Palestinian families in the creation of Israel then? And I’d love to know why you think Jews belong in Israel anymore than Palestinians and why there shouldn’t have initially – under the auspices of the UN – been a single state, with Jews AND Palestinians, living side-by-side, with a world governing body facilitating the right-of-return for the Jewish diaspora? Hamas did not exist in 1917, or in 1948. They (and their likeness, in the Palestinian Muslim Brotherhood) emerged as a result of the occupation – It seems that the line of argument you pursue does not take stock of the fact that the Palestinians who were displaced were deeply, horrifically wronged – in many cases beaten or murdered, but certainly – by the hundreds of thousands – displaced from their homes. DO you like the thought of this happening to people? I’m sorry to be facetious again, but it seems to me to an enormous oversight, if that is your line of reasoning.

          • BeanHash

            I’m not sure that I believe in any particular racial or religious groups “right” to piece of land. However, I do recognise the historical occupation of that land by Jews, BC. The thing that puzzles me is that you can’t see how this would make the Palestinians who lived there feel. And you can’t see that they also have a claim of ownership to the land, one that is equally based in scripture and historical tenure. If the argument is “who was there first”, then I’m afraid that modern science dictates that we’re all from Africa anyway, so this claim is historically absurd. – I’d love to hear a justification for the displacement of Palestinian families in the creation of Israel then? And I’d love to know why you think Jews belong in Israel anymore than Palestinians and why there shouldn’t have initially – under the auspices of the UN – been a single state, with Jews AND Palestinians, living side-by-side, with a world governing body facilitating the right-of-return for the Jewish diaspora? Hamas did not exist in 1917, or in 1948. They (and their likeness, in the Palestinian Muslim Brotherhood) emerged as a result of the occupation – It seems that the line of argument you pursue does not take stock of the fact that the Palestinians who were displaced were deeply, horrifically wronged – in many cases beaten or murdered, but certainly – by the hundreds of thousands – displaced from their homes. DO you like the thought of this happening to people? I’m sorry to be facetious again, but it seems to me to an enormous oversight, if that is your line of reasoning..

          • BeanHash

            I’m not sure that I believe in any particular racial or religious groups “right” to piece of land. However, I do recognise the historical occupation of that land by Jews, BC. The thing that puzzles me is that you can’t see how this would make the Palestinians who lived there feel. And you can’t see that they also have a claim of ownership to the land, one that is equally based in scripture and historical tenure. If the argument is “who was there first”, then I’m afraid that modern science dictates that we’re all from Africa anyway, so this claim is historically absurd. – I’d love to hear a justification for the displacement of Palestinian families in the creation of Israel then? And I’d love to know why you think Jews belong in Israel anymore than Palestinians and why there shouldn’t have initially – under the auspices of the UN – been a single state, with Jews AND Palestinians, living side-by-side, with a world governing body facilitating the right-of-return for the Jewish diaspora? Hamas did not exist in 1917, or in 1948. They (and their likeness, in the Palestinian Muslim Brotherhood) emerged as a result of the occupation – It seems that the line of argument you pursue does not take stock of the fact that the Palestinians who were displaced were deeply, horrifically wronged – in many cases beaten or murdered, but certainly – by the hundreds of thousands – displaced from their homes. DO you like the thought of this happening to people? I’m sorry to be facetious again, but it seems to me to an enormous oversight, if that is your line of reasoning…

          • BeanHash

            I’m not sure that I believe in any particular racial or religious groups “right” to piece of land. However, I do recognise the historical occupation of that land by Jews, BC. The thing that puzzles me is that you can’t see how this would make the Palestinians who lived there feel. And you can’t see that they also have a claim of ownership to the land, one that is equally based in scripture and historical tenure. If the argument is “who was there first”, then I’m afraid that modern science dictates that we’re all from Africa anyway, so this claim is historically absurd. – I’d love to hear a justification for the displacement of Palestinian families in the creation of Israel then? And I’d love to know why you think Jews belong in Israel anymore than Palestinians and why there shouldn’t have initially – under the auspices of the UN – been a single state, with Jews AND Palestinians, living side-by-side, with a world governing body facilitating the right-of-return for the Jewish diaspora? Hamas did not exist in 1917, or in 1948. They (and their likeness, in the Palestinian Muslim Brotherhood) emerged as a result of the occupation – It seems that the line of argument you pursue does not take stock of the fact that the Palestinians who were displaced were deeply, horrifically wronged – in many cases beaten or murdered, but certainly – by the hundreds of thousands – displaced from their homes. DO you like the thought of this happening to people? I’m sorry to be facetious again, but it seems to me to an enormous oversight, if that is your line of reasoning…

          • BeanHash

            I’m not sure that I believe in any particular racial or religious groups “right” to piece of land. However, I do recognise the historical occupation of that land by Jews, BC. The thing that puzzles me is that you can’t see how this would make the Palestinians who lived there feel. And you can’t see that they also have a claim of ownership to the land, one that is equally based in scripture and historical tenure. If the argument is “who was there first”, then I’m afraid that modern science dictates that we’re all from Africa anyway, so this claim is historically absurd. – I’d love to hear a justification for the displacement of Palestinian families in the creation of Israel then? And I’d love to know why you think Jews belong in Israel anymore than Palestinians and why there shouldn’t have initially – under the auspices of the UN – been a single state, with Jews AND Palestinians, living side-by-side, with a world governing body facilitating the right-of-return for the Jewish diaspora? Hamas did not exist in 1917, or in 1948. They (and their likeness, in the Palestinian Muslim Brotherhood) emerged as a result of the occupation – It seems that the line of argument you pursue does not take stock of the fact that the Palestinians who were displaced were deeply, horrifically wronged – in many cases beaten or murdered, but certainly – by the hundreds of thousands – displaced from their homes. DO you like the thought of this happening to people? I’m sorry to be facetious again, but it seems to me to an enormous oversight, if that is your line of reasoning……

          • LouAdams

            Jack how do you feel about the larger displacement of middle eastern Jews and the loss of their land and possessions, especially the ones who lived in Jerusalem, Hebron and Etzion?

          • BeanHash

            Wow. Interesting. Are you Jewish? If not, why do you believe in the Jewish people’s right to a geographical region over, say, the Muslim people’s right to the same region? Both claim it in scripture, right? In my opinion, both are entirely wrong on that one. – On the issue of moral equivalency, I think you might have made an assumption about what I’m arguing here. There are no moral equivalencies, not in any debate, not ever. The displacement of Palestinian refugees and the decimation of their homeland was wrong in the first place. Agreed? Or do you like the idea of displacing people and decimating their homeland? After this, the human shield and the terrorist bombings and the pernicious indoctrinations of children by Hamas are also wrong. Agreed? I assume so. But what is also wrong, and what continues in the same pernicious vein of a neo-colonial behemoth, is the decision to further expand Israeli settlements in previously agreed Palestinian territory. You don’t have to be an expert on the conflict to know that this is grossly immoral and will likely to contribute to further terrorism, do you? Moral equivalency is a strange concept. But to suggest that Israel has never done anything wrong (including the displacements and the land-grabs and colonial expansion), is just a complete fabrication, isn’t it?

          • JackZ

            Yes to the first question, no to the second. And something in-between to the third. I’m a Zionist, yes, but I’m not sure about the unrelenting bit. I’d prefer Israel to be behind the green line, and to stop building on Palestinian land. But I won’t agree to debate that presumes a moral equivalence between Hamas/Fatah and Israeli actions. There is none.

          • LouAdams

            destruction of all Palestinian land, who now need to take a impartial, objective analyses of the last 60 years.
            Did you even read the article.
            The point is that Israel is judged by a completely standard than any other country in the world. How are you treating the Scots and Irish these days?

          • BeanHash

            Lou… let’s not get personal and silly about this. My “beliefs”, as you put it, are what exactly? I’ll tell you: I don’t believe in Hamas. I don’t believe in Israeli expansion of settlements. I believe in peace. I’m not a British politician, so please don’t try to suggest that “I’m” treating the Scottish or the Irish any other way than my beloved neighbours. I sympathise with Jews. As I have said, the holocaust and the various tragedies of the Jewish diaspora are horrific. But this cannot be used as excuse to persecute other sets of people; namely, the Palestinians. I don’t see why we have to talk in terms of one set of people’s lives at the expense of anothers? Do you believe in displacing and killing Palestinians? I don’t think you do, or you would be a heinous, megalomaniac. Do I believe Jewish people deserve a homeland. YES!!! of course I do. I’m just trying to point out that Palestinians have had their land systematically stripped away from them, instead of any attempt by the UN, the US, or Europe and Israel to accept a mutual land-ownership. Why is this so difficult to agree with? I believe in peace, not murder, not displacement, not theft, not diaspora. Please don’t try to pigeon-hole me as anything other else. It’s neither fair nor conducive to serious discussion on the subject.

          • LouAdams

            Thank you, with that said more Jews were displaced than Muslims. But there were 10 million displaced Germans after WW2 and more displaced in India. They are all resettled,and are not blowing up buses of children or sending rockets tino civilian neighborhoods,

          • Chris Morriss

            What a nasty snide remark. I guess you’re an American who was quite happy to fund the IRA murderers?

          • LouAdams

            I don’t like that kind of terrorism anywhere.

          • BeanHash

            There appears to be something wrong with you JackZ. You are impervious to reason and intelligible debate. I’m not your enemy. Violence and ignorance are the enemies of humanity. Do some research.

          • BeanHash

            There appears to be something wrong with you JackZ. You are impervious to reason and intelligible debate. I’m not your enemy. Violence and ignorance are the enemies of humanity. Do some research.

          • BeanHash

            There appears to be something wrong with you JackZ. You are impervious to reason and intelligible debate. I’m not your enemy. Violence and ignorance are the enemies of humanity. Do some research!

        • LouAdams

          your beliefs are quite sad really, quoting the very sources that judge Israel by a far different standard than they judge any other country,
          Speaking about being fair, Israel has “settlements” on 2% of what was Jordan’s west bank, which happens to have been Jewish Kibbutzes that were murderously ethnically cleansed.

          • BeanHash

            Lou… let’s not get personal and silly about this. My “beliefs”, as you put it, are what exactly? I’ll tell you: I don’t believe in Hamas. I don’t believe in Israeli expansion of settlements. I believe in peace. I’m not a British politician, so please don’t try to suggest that “I’m” treating the Scottish or the Irish any other way than as my beloved neighbours. I sympathise with Jews. As I have said, the holocaust and the various tragedies of the Jewish diaspora are horrific. But this cannot be used as excuse to persecute other sets of people; namely, the Palestinians. I don’t see why we have to talk in terms of one set of people’s lives at the expense of anothers? Do you
            believe in displacing and killing Palestinians? I don’t think you do, or you would be a heinous, megalomaniac. Do I believe Jewish people deserve a homeland. YES!!! of course I do. I’m just trying to point out that Palestinians
            have had their land systematically stripped away from them, instead of any attempt by the UN, the US, or Europe and Israel to accept a mutual land-ownership. Why is this so difficult to agree with? I believe in peace, not
            murder, not displacement, not theft, not diaspora. Please don’t try to pigeon-hole me as anything other else. It’s neither fair nor conducive to serious discussion on the subject.

          • BeanHash

            Lou… let’s not get personal and silly about this. My “beliefs”, as you put it, are what exactly? I’ll tell you: I don’t believe in Hamas. I don’t believe in Israeli expansion of settlements. I believe in peace. I’m not a British politician, so please don’t try to suggest that “I’m” treating the Scottish or the Irish any other way than as my beloved neighbours. I sympathise with Jews. As I have said, the holocaust and the various tragedies of the Jewish diaspora are horrific. But this cannot be used as excuse to persecute other sets of people; namely, the Palestinians. I don’t see why we have to talk in terms of one set of people’s lives at the expense of anothers? Do you
            believe in displacing and killing Palestinians? I don’t think you do, or you would be a heinous, megalomaniac. Do I believe Jewish people deserve a homeland. YES!!! of course I do. I’m just trying to point out that Palestinians
            have had their land systematically stripped away from them, instead of any attempt by the UN, the US, or Europe and Israel to accept a mutual land-ownership. Why is this so difficult to agree with? I believe in peace, not
            murder, not displacement, not theft, not diaspora. Please don’t try to pigeon-hole me as anything other else. It’s neither fair nor conducive to serious discussion on the subject…

          • Chris Morriss

            Your mention of kibbutzes might make people recall that Israel was founded by very left-wing socialists. It may no longer be a socialist country, but it still seems to live by the socialist mantra of “what’s mine is mine and what’s yours is mine as well”.

          • BeanHash

            LouAdams, you’re not being very considerate or fair in your comments, here. You’re doing precisely what the author of this piece does. You’re equating my solidarity with Palestinians with anti-Semitism. I concur, ethnic cleansing of Jews (or any other group) is utterly, horrifically abominable. I concur, many Israelis are currently living fearful lives, with threats of violence and bombings to their own homes and friends and families. Why do you assume that I don’t think this?
            I’m simply asking for both sides to make concessions about what has happened, historically. On this website, here, it seems the majority of people are rabidly pro-Israeli and are in complete denial of ANY wrongdoing by the Israeli military, as well as of the effects of Israeli politicians who continue to advocate the expansion of settlements and territory, so this is why I’m focusing on the negative aspects of Israeli actions. Without this concession, you do not understand the conflict fully, and since nobody here appears to willing to make that concession, I’m pointing it out.
            You must know that Hamas did not spring from the ether? They are awful, yes. They are brutal, of course. I, and the vast bulk of the Western world, absolutely wish they did not exist. But, unfortunately, they did emerge as a result of a particular political context, and a discussion of this context (whether you like to admit it or not) involves the Israeli occupation, the initial displacement of Palestinian nationals and the 1st Intifada, and so on. If you think these assertions mean that I’m somehow anti-Semitic, then your mind is already made up, you are not listening properly, you are not open to logical debate or conversation on the issue.
            Can I ask you a question? – Do you think that Arabs and/or Muslims are genetically pre-disposed to terrorism and hatred, or do you think perhaps ALL terrorism and ALL hatred comes from an element of provocation? I’m very interested to know what you think. Thanks.

          • LouAdams

            whatever Israel has done pales in comparison to what the Muslims have don not only to Jews, but to Hindus and Christians. Wake up man those who are kind to the cruel end up being cruel to the kind.
            Neville Chamberlain is not a good role model

          • LouAdams

            Why should I spend ANY time expressing Israels faults, the rest of the world spends more time on that then any other issue, especially the British. The facts have been so twisted, so misrepresented that most Israeli supporters have to spend immeasurable amounts of time in an effort to clarify their side from the distortions. Even with your “good” intentions you buy them.
            Here are good words for you to look up

            Hudna and it’s original history with Mohammed’s strategy
            taqqiya when you believe their statements

        • LouAdams

          your beliefs are quite sad really, quoting the very sources that judge Israel by a far different standard than they judge any other country,
          Speaking about being fair, Israel has “settlements” on 2% of what was Jordan’s west bank, which happens to have been Jewish Kibbutzes that were murderously ethnically cleansed.

  • Mike

    Its more than just Israel and I fear for the world due to the anti Israel commentaries we’ve seen lately..

    Is every sane person still in denial that the militants within Islam are on a religious crusade to take over the world as judging from events EVERYWHERE you look that is exactly what is happening or is it just the wet liberals in denial of the facts.

    It maybe that only be 10% of of the world Muslim population is determined to return the world to the 5th century but the other 90% are irrelevant in this war due to their passivity towards these modern day Islamic crusaders. Every single conflict in the world today has Islam at its routes or at least its being carried out in the name of Islam.

    Whether its Israel vs Hamas, internicene civil wars in Syria, Iraq & Libya or terrorist actions against the west, every one has the same common denominator.

    The problem is, the wet liberal left rule the roost and our western leaders are behaving like frightened rabbits in the headlights of the oncoming Islamic jihad unable to take any action and protect us from destruction.

    • thomasaikenhead

      Mike,

      “The problem is, the wet liberal left rule the roost and our western leaders are behaving like frightened rabbits in the headlights of the oncoming Islamic jihad unable to take any action and protect us from destruction.”

      Utter tosh, the people in the UK stood fast during the Blitz and did the same in the faced of a sustained and prolonged terror campaign by the IRA.

      The Uk simply does not face a serious or credible threat from an Islamic Jihad, just a few isolated incidents by amateur malcontents.

      It is certainly not ‘more than just Israel’, the current problems in Gaza stem directly from Israel taking on more than it could handle by attempting to retain the land taken in 1967.

      Give back the land taken in 1967 and Israel can have peace, get greedy and try and keep the land and there will be no peace.

      • Mike

        Up to and including WWII and the IRA bombing campaign we did indeed stand uo against terrorists, and I should know as the IRA bombed my local Army barracks in & around the pubs in Woolwich.

        Now however, the ruling elite has given in to terrorism and the causes of terrorism in order to placate the wet liberal fascists !

        As for “The Uk simply does not face a serious or credible threat from an Islamic Jihad, just a few isolated incidents by amateur malcontents.” I seem to remember a certain British politician saying the same thing about Hitler. I think Chambelain was his name !!!

      • LouAdams

        Thomas how do you explain the terrorist attacks on Israel prior to 1967 and how do you explain that the PLO was founded in 1967?
        By the way,, Israel gave back the Sinai to Egypt and signed a peace treaty with them, and unilaterally pulled out of Gaza. You know the place that has shot thousands of rockets into Israel.

        • thomasaikenhead

          Lou,

          You make very good points!

          Remember that the events when Israel was established included attacks on Arab villages, massacres, ethnic cleansing and other violations of human rights.

          Remember that the ‘Open Bridges’ policy was a one way movement of population.

          Israel never ‘gave back’ the Sinai, Israel was forced to concede after pressure was applied.

          In the same way, Israel never ‘retreated’ from Lebanon in 1982, Israel was driven out after the invasion failed.

          • LouAdams

            Thomas the only ethnic cleansing was done by Muslim armies in Etzion, Jerusalem and Hebron amongst others.
            Men wearing womens clothing firing weapons are not civilians
            Sadat come to Israel and Israel gladly gave back the Sinai for peace as it unilaterally pulled out of Egypt’s former colony Gaza.with the hope for peace.

          • thomasaikenhead

            Lou,

            Simply not true and you show your ignorance of Israeli history by making such claims.

          • LouAdams

            you are embarrassing yourself, all factual and documentable.
            do some check up.

          • LouAdams

            I posted specifics to make it easier for you to look up the facts, sadly your more interested in empty responses than history. your pathetic lack of knowledge should preclude you from wasting any more time on this subject.

          • thomasaikenhead

            Lou,

            You posted a selective list to support your point of view rather than the historical.

            Muslim armies were NOT the only groups to practice ethnic cleansing, or have you REALLY never heard of the Deir Yassin massacre?

            If you have not then you should be ashamed of your ignorance and if you have and deliberately left out reference to it and the other ethnic cleansing operations conducted by Jewish groups then you are up to something more sinister.

  • Mike

    Check out this debate over the passivity of most Muslims towards the extremists in their midst and see where the problem really lies.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ry3NzkAOo3s

  • Daniel Jeyn

    As terrible as the suffering of the Palestinians has been, don’t we (i.e, the “West”) get it that when we see photos of dolls and plushies amidst destruction that they are photo props? Because we’ve seen it exposed that these are deliberately sought after by photographers — not outright posed– I have a automatic recoil when I see it, thinking how dare they constantly showcase child casualties as agit-prop. Particularly because it seems that Hamas deliberately puts its rockets and targets where children are, for the express purpose of inviting death to them. So that they can carry their corpses aloft in order to whip up a mob to murderous Jihad.

  • Daniel Jeyn

    Not being a believer, I guess by default I am an “anti-Zionist.” I don’t care one whit about the history of Judaism as to how it relates to Israel. I don’t think Israel represents “the Jews” anymore than Jews who are citizens of other states have anything to say to the Israelis. I judge Israel as a nation with a government and borders and an ethno-identity, like I would judge any other. And to me, it’s obvious: the Israelis are a nation fighting for their existence. It’d be one thing if the other states in the region did not kick out their Jewish citizens because of their ethno-identity, more or less exiling them to Israel. Oh, but they did.

    • Damaris Tighe

      I think you’re saying you’re a non-zionist not an anti-zionist.

  • Shaun Wilson

    It has nothing to do with body count. You clearly have no idea what “the West” feels about this. Let me try clue your countrymen in a bit before you all start patting each other on the back and congratulating one another on such a fine display of ignorance.

    If Israel would cease fire and return prisoners the rocket volleys from Palestine would stop. This is what Hamas has stated repeatedly. Israel refuses.

    ISRAEL refuses.

    clearly trying to put an end to the conflict “once and for all” isn’t working, it’s not going to work, violence and aggression is not the right solution especially when innocents are being killed. that just breeds more violence and aggression.

    it doesn’t matter if civilians ‘may be’ used as human shields, it doesn’t matter that there ‘may be’ weapons or high-value Hamas targets at any of the ~600 buildings that have been decimated in Gaza (or the thousands around them which, by standards in “the West” would be condemned not fit for human occupancy.)

    It doesn’t matter that Hamas, or any other group, is “using” the population.

    The simple, disgusting fact is this:

    In the past ~10 days 1 Israeli has died, reportedly from a heart attack, yet the death toll for Palestinians is numbered in the hundreds and climbing, 80% of which were civilians, children and women.

    How can you support that kind of aggression?

    Have enough humans not been killed yet?

    Maybe you’re all unaware that of the estimated 10,000 rockets in Hamas possession less than 100 of them are capable of reaching Tel Aviv, Jerusalem or Haifa.. Heck, I’ll go out on a limb here…

    Perhaps the problem here is you’re unaware that “the West” has paid for
    (and built, and continues to build, newer and better)
    missile defense systems which protect Israel from these attacks.

    Maybe you all fail to understand that Hamas can’t do much more than scare the Israeli population.

    So forgive “the West” for feeling like their ally, whom they provide BILLIONS IN MILITARY DEFENSE, could take a much more peaceful approach to resolving their problems. However, with the latest news about how the Israeli PM knew that those three Israeli teens were dead when they assaulted West Bank.. we just get this sense that we’re being lied to, you start to wonder if Israel is intentionally inciting chaos so they can attack with impunity. Terms like “genocide” start appearing in conversations here in the free world.

    Over 60 straight years of death.. for what? Land? I have to admit, the 1900s were a shitty period for the Levant and everyone in it. We (the United Nations) basically told Israel they could dishevel people and bulldoze homes, take their water and farmland and squeeze them into a ghetto, then disconnect their cities and blockade their people from reaching ANYTHING. Meanwhile “the West” managed to veto just about every single UNSC resolution condemning Israel for their actions.

    • BeanHash

      Here, here.

      • pedestrianblogger

        Where, where?

      • pedestrianblogger

        Where, where?

        • BeanHash

          Well, pedestrianblogger, I was attempting to channel the colloquial register of a zealous parliamentary figure in full agreement of the terms laid out in the preceding statement. But since you ask: I’m in London.

          • LouAdams

            where else would you be

          • Damaris Tighe

            He’s sarcastically referring to your little spelling error.

          • Chris Morriss

            And quite right too. If someone doesn’t know the difference between ‘here’ and ‘hear’, it’s unlikely to be worth considering any comment he may make.

          • Damaris Tighe

            Charity, Chris, charity.

          • BeanHash

            Haha! Ok. I see now. I’m the moron. Thank you both for pointing this out…

          • Damaris Tighe

            You’re welcome!

        • BeanHash

          Well, pedestrianblogger, I was attempting to channel the colloquial register of a zealous parliamentary figure in full agreement of the terms laid out in the preceding statement. But since you ask: I’m in London.

      • Chris Morriss

        Where, where?

        Edit
        Rats!
        Someone gave the same reply as mine a day earlier to this illiterate.

        • BeanHash

          Thank you Chris Morriss. Very kind of you to point it out to me, as well.

    • JackZ

      Hysterical, paranoid nonsense.

    • Ellen_L

      That the missile barrage did not kill many Israelis was not for lack of trying. Running out to meet weapons unarmed is stupid – asking others to do so is evil. If the Israelis wanted to destroy Gaza it could. Israel is trying to stop the violence, Hamas started it and keeps it going.

  • john

    Sheeeee’s back. Good old Melanie, rabid supporter of Israel and avid spotter of anti-Semitic abuse.

    • JackZ

      And there’s plenty of it to spot.

      • LouAdams

        especially in the land of Disraeli

  • TNT

    Great piece, Melanie – thank you!

    • Damaris Tighe

      Plight or blight?

      • TNT

        Ha! Quite!

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gXPL0kyom9U Beverley Price

    I am a Jew. and here is more ” new World-mathematics” for Israel’s wars = not enough Jews dead to qualify for “victim”.
    The world is unremittingly mad.
    Israelis take precautions to eliminate the waste of death.
    1. What is the chronology of their cognition? Does it start with the iron dome? A lot earlier – the principle of the desire for all life is inculcated in The Jew. (Not as many Arab 4, 5 year old kids are horrifically taught – to choose shaheeda over “regular”death as one would prefer a doll to a toy car).
    2. And what are the conveniently selected starting points in the Macro-chronology of selective victimisation? In which year to pinpoint the “cause”? These are terminally selected so as to predispose Israel to the sticky-honey blame.
    Where do we start counting? Abram’s Ishmael and Isaac?1948? 1967?
    Locked in an obsessive compulsive hatred to eradicate Israel, the Arabs choose a point which predisposes their victimisation.
    3. This sick blindness now permeates our ANC government in South Africa , with a spate of at least 2 female antisemitic statements and media images this week. Mandela is dead and with him, a good moral trajectory.We had to remind them, that Israel prevails and that Hitler is ” already” dead.
    4. And what of the “Micro-chronology” of the rockets between Gaza and Israel? Hamas sends its rockets, Israel takes measures to protect its civilians, then responds/ reacts? defends ?(what language is permitted to Israel these days in our perversion of words even in war?) and fires back. In addition, Israel warns Gazans to protect their citizens and children while Hamas encourages the contrary – go on the roofs to die as human shields. This education for hatred and suicide begins in kindergarten. The “West” knows this and yet it is too awful to grasp and so great Projection onto Israel. Hamas understands and robs the minds of compassionate sane people.
    Is this surprising? Cause and effect? Tit for tat!
    5. Every death of a Gazan is propagated by a Hamas rocket. That is the trajectory and self-reflexive circuit. Like hitting oneself with a bat and then using this as proof to western “media audiences” that Israel is responsible.
    (This great pain of inadequacy and abandonment by their own people. Why has Gaza not bloomed? Where are the oil rich billionaire diaspora Arabs for their brothers and sisters in Gaza? Is this question too obvious that no-one asks it? Shopping at Harrods or buying it.)
    6. Hamas’s lust for the death and the blood of Jews is unfathomable to us Jews, but clearly insatiable. Hamas people are indoctrinated as war machines, a death industry and lost generation to their people. Is there a residual desire for life? will they not soon be coming for all the reader/ opinionated observers if not halted, They already take their own. Is it not plain to see? Are people so abhorred by the magnitude of this evil that they resort to blaming a manageable adversary – Israel using the millenia-old anti semitic trope? I am a Jew. I love being a Jew.We love and choose Life and we do prevail, despite our very small numbers. Good over Evil intentions and Life over death.The Planet will thank Israel for serving as its buffer to this ancient scourge.

    • Chris Morriss

      This comment might have been more understandable if you had asked a native-English speaker to proof read it.

      • Damaris Tighe

        Ok Chris, I get that you don’t like Jews. But as a self-described Christian I think you could be more charitable.

      • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gXPL0kyom9U Beverley Price

        LOL I am a first language English speaker,( followed by Hebrew, French, Afrikaans, some Zulu and Yiddish)Was a passionate about these new ironies.Will unpack them over time. Feel strongly about selective chronology. That’s one battle as I understand it – from what point in time does one consider that history starts.Problematic when conflicts not only with regards to the same land, but the difference in assuming ownership and importance to an earlier or later historical moment.

  • pedestrianblogger

    Every death of a Palestinian “civilian” is a PR disaster for Israel and a PR triumph for Hamas. If you want to know who is responsible for these deaths, ask the question beloved of conspiracy theorists: “cui bono?”

    • Damaris Tighe

      Who benefits? As you say, Hamas.

    • thomasaikenhead

      Netanyahu as he tries to look ‘tough on terrorists’!

      Unfortunately everyone remembers how he blocked Uzi Shaya giving evidence on behalf of he families of the victims of terrorism in the legal case that they bought against the Bank of China.

    • AndyPlatt

      Goodness. Seems strange that Israel keeps up the killing then. Presumably you’re the sort of person who goes around saying women deserve to be raped if they wear short skirts and that every rape is a PR win for feminists. A deranged logic.

  • Mike Carter

    Israel has been defying the UN since 1969 and continues to provoke with it’s land-grabs, illegal settlements, anti=Palestine brutalities et al. They have no right to ANY moral high ground.

    • BeanHash

      Very true Mike. Well said.

    • LouAdams

      the settlements are on land that was once Jewish land before it was ethnically cleansed, let’s compare the way Arabs are treated in Israel by the government to the way they are treated in Egypt, Syria, Iran and Libya by their government, if you want to point at brutality. Did you even read the article?

      • Mike Carter

        Of course I read the article, did you? you obviously take no account of the fact that it’s the OCCUPIED West Bank, or that Israel is holding Gaza in a state of siege.Israel is a country born from terrorism and continues to wage the same terrorism throughout the region. I would suggest that you read ‘Our Last Best Hope’ by King Abdullah of Jordan if you have any intention of understanding what the true problem is in the region.

        • LouAdams

          or you can read the history of Islam after you notice Israel negotiated the return of the Sinai to Egypt for peace and unilaterally withdrew from Gaza in the hope peace would blossom rather than continued rocket attacks.

          • thomasaikenhead

            Lou,

            Israel retreated from Gaza due to fear of the one state solution.

            Let the PA disappear and then the West Bank and Gaza can become part of Israel proper.

            Give all the residents citizenship in accord with international human rights accords and sees what happens?

          • Damaris Tighe

            What happens? The same will happen to the Jews in this hypothetical state of yours as has happened to the Christians of rebel-held Syria, Iraq, Pakistan, Egypt, Nigeria, Sudan, Gaza & Iran.

            It’s easy to type ‘see what happens’ from your armchair. I doubt if the Jews of Israel want to experiment.

          • thomasaikenhead

            Damaris,

            The choice is simple, Israel can;
            a) Withdraw from all ‘The Occupied Territories’

            b) Remain in occupation and refuse to allow Palestine to become a functioning state.

            The second option means continuing to ignore the human rights of the Palestinians.

            What does Israel really want, to be a ‘Jewish’ state or a democracy.

            Either set the Palestinians free OR make them Israeli citizens and allow them full civil liberties and human rights.

          • Damaris Tighe

            I would like to see a final peace deal that will give the Palestinians their state & give the Israelis long-term peace. I would like to see Israel move out of the WB, or do a land swap – if that results in peace. I do not want to see the WB used as a launch pad for terror after the Israelis leave, as has happened with Gaza.

          • LouAdams

            your theory has a very negative perspective of Israel, your perspective not the reason Israel choose the unilateral withdrawal.
            International human rights, sure why don’t you share who is on the UN Human rights committee and tell me how much better they are than Israel. .

          • thomasaikenhead

            LouAdams,

            IHR is an issue for Israel especially with regard to the inhabitants of the Occupied territories!

          • LouAdams

            yes because the members are all so great examples of humanitarian. behavior

        • mohdanga

          The UN created a terrorist state?

          • Chris Morriss

            It allowed the creation of one in 1948. Read the published history of Mossad. That will send shivers down your spine.

        • LouAdams

          80% of the Muslims in Judea and Samara live in areas that are controlled by the PLO, Gaza had open borders until they began firing rockets into Israel–they are responsible for any results. Israelis live on less than 3% of Judea and Samara, which no agreement in the 20th century disallows.
          Any time the Muslims want to accept the existence of Israel and sign a peace treaty, their will be peace
          You appear to have lost the thread of the last 1400 years of Muslim conquest and subjugation, a little reading might bring you up to date. .

      • thomasaikenhead

        Lou,

        Not correct, it simply was NOT Jewish land!

        • Chris Morriss

          Hers is the type of argument that would state that Utah should become an independent Mormon country!

        • LouAdams

          Jerusalem was a Jewish majority city until it was ethnically cleansed
          Jews lived in Hebron from time immemorial until the massacres by Muslims
          Etzion was a large Jewish Kibbutz until it was destroyed and the entire population was murdered.
          all facts

          • thomasaikenhead

            Lou,

            Er, except that they are not ‘facts’, are they?

          • LouAdams

            er they are facts rather than the racist reversionary stories Do a search on Jerusalem, Hebron and Etzion and Arab massacres

    • OritThePetite

      Gaza was “freed” in 2005. Are we on the same planet?

  • JackZ

    Bravo, Melanie. Well said, and thank you.

  • Sezenarium

    It should be explained for the casual reader that the Gaza Strip is not a
    Middle Eastern erotic dance. It is tiny but overcrowded ghetto regularly
    used as target practice by its wealthier and heavily armed neighbors
    and for the occasional invasion.

    The rules for these war games permit the slaughter of women and children and the widespread destruction of property. These circumstances arose through what those
    not living in the Middle East call the “peace process”, a diplomatic farce justifying extensive use of private jets and lavish salaries for politicians and civil servants. Over several decades of strenuous indifference it has achieved exactly nothing for the inhabitants of the Gaza Strip and other citizens of the Palestinian State.

    • LouAdams

      Gaza has plenty of money, they just choose to spend it on military equipment to as their charter and children are taught’;to murder Jews and destroy Israel.

      • Damaris Tighe

        I suspect it’s also to impress ISIS – who now have millions of $ to throw around.

      • thomasaikenhead

        Lou,

        Face the facts, who is ACTUALLY getting murdered?

        Answer: Look at the casualties lists1

        How many Israelis are killed and wounded in each of these operations and how many Palestinians are killed and wounded?

        Just do the math?

      • thomasaikenhead

        Lou,

        Face the facts, who is ACTUALLY getting murdered?

        Answer: Look at the casualties lists1

        How many Israelis are killed and wounded in each of these operations and how many Palestinians are killed and wounded?

        Just do the math?

        • OritThePetite

          Our aplogies for investing in bomb shelters, alarm systems and Iron Dome to prevent Hamas rockets killing our civilians. Hamas took the money and invested in missiles. However, Hamas doesnt need Iron Dome: if they would stop shooting, Israel would stop immediately.

          • Damaris Tighe

            Orit, it’s amazing you even have to point this out. Stay safe.

          • Chris Morriss

            Do you really think Israel would stop its periodic invasions? History tells us otherwise.

        • mohdanga

          So now self defence is murder…ok, then.
          And leftwing logic is that in a war both sides must suffer the same casualties. More brilliance.

  • marco

    Bangladesh-Pakistan 1971 war = 3,000,000 Muslims dead.
    Sudan 1983 civil war = 1,000,000 Muslims dead.
    Iraq-Iran 1988 war = 800,000 Muslims dead.
    Syria 2011 civil war = 250,000 Muslims dead.
    Algeria 1991 civil war = 150,000 Muslims dead
    Algeria 2011 Arab spring = 174,000 Muslims dead.
    Iraq many civil wars = 100,000 Muslims dead.

    Israel-Gaza 2014 war = 200+ Muslims dead in Israel’s self defense–> Muslims: “Israel is a terror state”. LOL

    • Damaris Tighe

      Not to mention that we are told tonight that Ukraine bombed an apartment block in its breakaway region several days ago. Pictures of utter destruction. Several dead. It was only reported today because of the airliner. If that hadn’t happened it would never have been reported.

      • Spartanzz

        and not to mention the shooting down of a commercial airliner killing all 300 passengers. There that death toll just skyrocketed passed Israel with one missile strike.

        So now we can have the same people screaming and shouting protesting against Israel directed towards the people responsible for the Ukraine conflict.

        Israel does not fire surface to air missiles at commerical airliners going about its business. Europeans however.

        RIP to those innocents killed in all conflicts. To those “humanitarians” in the West stomping their feet against Israel. Maybe you should stop and look in the mirror.

        The sweet ironic hypocrisy of it all.

        • Damaris Tighe

          Stay safe Spatanazz.

        • Chris Morriss

          Given that all the evidence shows it was a Russian-controlled militia who fired the missile, why do you say that Europeans shot it down?

          • Spartanzz

            Russia blames you, you blame Russia…Until such time evidence is presented you’re all to blame.

  • marco

    Bangladesh-Pakistan 1971 war = 3,000,000 Muslims dead.
    Sudan 1983 civil war = 1,000,000 Muslims dead.
    Iraq-Iran 1988 war = 800,000 Muslims dead.
    Syria 2011 civil war = 250,000 Muslims dead.
    Algeria 1991 civil war = 150,000 Muslims dead
    Algeria 2011 Arab spring = 174,000 Muslims dead.
    Iraq many civil wars = 100,000 Muslims dead.

    Israel-Gaza 2014 war = 200+ Muslims dead in Israel’s self defense–> Muslims: “Israel is a terror state”. LOL

  • ChavahG

    Thank you for your incredibly clear and thoughtful article. I have thought about why Hamas doesn’t have a defense system. Here’s why I think: 1) They are too busy with their PR campaign – killing, choosing to be killed, eating children terror tactics, and finding movies to excerpt head chopping videos to blame on Israel and 2) They have a perfectly functional defense system – “Innocent Citizens.” It works just fine. Why spend money?

  • truthseeker

    Wow, zionists r us…stop fooling yourselves that this is a war. There is no war, this is a genocide. You would have thought that’s the last thing you’d want to go back to given your history. However, often the victim either becomes the perpetuator of the crime, or believes that they would never put anyone through what they had once been. Zioists are perptuators. How sad for the world.

    • LouAdams

      your projections are obvious as is your hatred and bias.

    • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gXPL0kyom9U Beverley Price

      Your chronology is selective. It is always selective and contingent on the desire for a cause and the belief that death in war has to be “right “for some and caused by “öthers”. It is wrong for all. There is no real chronology. The only cause is the desire for death, the afterlife, and wealth for an arms industry. You an I serve as infidels, as vehicles for the aim. of the “next holy life” Witness little Muslim children being taught to choose between shaheeda or “natural”death. Where normal children used to be taught the difference between a doll and a toy car.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oUvVO5KBv1o

    • Augustus

      Wow?
      Don’t you mean Pow!?

  • pobinr

    I really hate it when Israel is meeting out a kill ratio that’s way in excess of the Nazi reprisal level, then someone claims Israel is being victimised by anti semites.
    Grow up for Christ’s sake!
    The Zionists behaved like Nazis in 1948 when they kicked this crap off. Shame they didn’t listen to wise men like Einstein > http://www.globalwebpost.com/farooqm/study_res/einstein/nyt_orig.html

    • LouAdams

      just have your buddies stop firing missiles into civilian Israeli neighborhoods, of course you would have to find another outlet for your hatred.

    • Augustus

      He wasn’t out of favour with the Zionists at all. When Israel’s first Zionist President, Chaim Weizmann, died in 1952, Einstein was asked to be Israel’s second president, and said he was “deeply moved by the offer from our State of Israel.” He only declined because he thought he did not have enough experience for such a position. That letter has nothing to do with Israel’s circumstances today and it’s a red herring promulgated by bigoted idiots.

    • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gXPL0kyom9U Beverley Price

      How big is your enemy? Israel is the size of Yorkshire. See map to recap.
      http://images.nationmaster.com/images/motw/middle_east_and_asia/israel_nbr90.jpg

      • Damaris Tighe

        Or the size of Wales. Population the size of London’s.

    • OritThePetite

      Yes 6 million reprisal level for Jews having the temerity of living is low indeed compared to the awful death rate of Palestininans shootibg rockets at a neighbouring country.

    • The Masked Marvel

      Hang on, were the Jews lobbing bombs at the Reichstag and blowing up Berlin cabarets or something?

  • jack
  • Ellen_L

    Three attitudes toward human life: the good is to sacrifice one’s self for others, the good is to martyr one’s self to god and the state, the good is to achieve happiness and live well first for one’s self and then if possible for one’s community.

    The first leads to glorifying victimhood – our world is being taken over and destroyed by this kind of thinking as it takes from producers and doers to help others until eventually it takes because it teaches it is evil to do and produce and admirable to suffer. Counting victims determines right and wrong.

    The second leads to glorifying martyrdom and dying for the cause – today the leading cause is Islamic control and meeting bombs rather than protecting one’s self in a shelter even when warned well in advance. Being a victim – especially a dead one – determines heroism.

    The third leads to technology and wealth caused by innovation and the desire to make human lives safer, longer, and more comfortable – Israel uses weapons and shelters because Israelis value life over death. Israel achieves while others talk of redistribution or martyrdom. Prospering and staying alive is the goal and achieving better living determines one’s reward and value.

    Why do so many in the West hate Israel? Because they worship victimhood over achievement – because they value dying or actual death over living well. It is easy to build envy and resentment in those who are told to sacrifice their happiness for others and/or to die for their cause. Why do so many feel sorry for the Palestinians who are duped by tyrants to welcome bombs with their bodies? Because they believe victimhood triumphs over life. What makes people willing to die for the cause? Because they want to be heroic but have a value system that makes death rather than life the source of value. Everyone naturally wants to thrive and the contradiction must be terribly painful as well as tragic.

  • Tauseef Hussain

    Jewish people insult Jesus Christ, Muhammed and Hindu gods. Yet, they expect others to respect their way of life. Strange ?

    • Catherine Waterman

      In a free democracy it’s perfectly acceptable to ‘insult’, mock or disregard historical figures and mythological entities as we see fit. This is called free speech and rational discourse. Here in the 21st Century, no other religious belief system, whether it be Christian, Buddhist, Orthodox Jew, Hindu, Jehovah’s Witness, or whatever – issues death threats to those who mock or reject its doctrines.

      To the rational 21st Century Western mindset, Islam – even so-called moderate Islam – is a weird and unjust belief system. Believe whatever you wish to believe on the personal level; you are free to do so. But don’t imagine you also have the right to silence those who think differently.

      I could perhaps understand your feeling insulted should another person be rude to you personally, for whatever reason. But I certainly don’t understand why you should feel insulted just because others say disparaging things about Islam as a belief system.

      Please remember that not everyone is religious. And certainly not every religious person is Muslim. Let’s always keep in mind that Islamists (those who make no distinction between religion, Sharia law and politics) dream of a worldwide Caliphate, a nightmarish totalitarian regime of fundamentalist dominance.

      Goodness help us from that! For this reason, we must never take leave of our senses. Critical thinking is essential. If we lose the capacity to think in this way, we lose connection with our essential humanity.

      • Shazza

        Unfortunately moslems don’t do critical thinking. If they did, they would criticise their 7th century Dark Age ideology and reform it. For them the norm is beheading, stoning, amputation, flogging, slavery, etc. – how can any civilised, critical thinking person accept this as their reality?

        • Catherine Waterman

          Hi Shazza, apologies if you received an email reply to this comment! This was sent in error. I’m new to this Spectator forum malarkey and still learning the ropes – and I don’t like Twitter or Facebook. I have an account with Twitter solely because it makes life easier to reply to forum posts…

          I wrote this in response:

          Yes exactly Shazza. This is what we are up against. This is why I regard Islam as a cult rather than an evolving religion which is constantly revised in tune with the times. Islam bears all the hallmarks of a cult. The shunning of apostates, or murder of apostates in extreme cases, carried out in the name of Mohamed and/or Allah (horrific either way!) Critical thinking within the Islamic faith is prohibited. Of course, this is antithetical to Western ideology. I don’t know how the rift will ever be bridged, unless Islam is prepared to soften.

          • Shazza

            The rift will never be bridged neither will Islam soften.
            So….. looking at world events and how our so-called leaders are responding, my money is on islam taking us all back to the 7th century. For 1400 years they have been playing the long game and now the end goal is in sight. This Catherine, I believe is going to happen.

            RIP Western Civilisation. It was great while it lasted.

          • Catherine Waterman

            We must not give up! We must keep talking about the problems with Islam, in the hope of raising general awareness.
            Whilst I’m normally a tolerant person, I have to say that the first step in redressing the balance would be a banning of the Burqa here in the UK. I find the garment highly offensive – a depressing life denying garment, which is not dissimilar to the symbolism of the swastika. It symbolises imprisonment of the female body and soul, of inequality and oppression.
            Muslim women living over here will often ‘choose’ to wear it and tell us it’s their right to wear the veil. But do they ever think of their sisters in Muslim countries who are forced to veil themselves for fear of being whipped or even executed for the so-called sin of immodesty? They appear not to give a damn.
            The burqa is an insult to all those women who have fought (and sometimes even died) in the quest for equality and universal suffrage.
            Sorry, I’m sort of off-topic and should talk about the burqa elsewhere. Nevertheless, the point I’m making is that we must be vigilant and vocal about the dangers of Islamisation through the back door. We must not allow ourselves to be intimidated by manipulative accusations such as ‘racist’ and ‘Islamaphobic’ whenever we criticise Islam.
            Another thing we can do is oppose the implementation of Sharia Law in the UK. The Law Society is a disgrace, for it has already allowed aspects of Sharia law to infiltrate the British legal system. For anyone who is interested in this particular issue, they can visit the One Law For All campaign website.

          • Chris Morriss

            I’m always wary about banning anything, except those things which violate ‘natural law’. In the case of the burka (or indeed for those thuggish ‘hoodies’ which seem to rule the streets of too many of our towns), then it may be the most expedient thing to do at the moment. I see no reason why anyone (except the most horribly disfigured) should feel the need to hide their face in public.

          • Catherine Waterman

            Talking of ‘natural law’, I forgot to mention in my post about the health dangers of wearing the burqa. Indeed, women who wear it are beginning to suffer the effects of vitamin D deficiency. We need a certain amount of sunlight on our skin in order to synthesise the vitamin in our bodies.

            Covering the entire person in this maniacal way is even causing a rise in serious conditions such as rickets – a condition which is normally associated with extreme poverty and malnourishment.

            The burqa was originally designed to afford protection from desert sand storms. It wasn’t intended to be a mark of a woman’s devotion to Allah. Outspoken Muslim women living in the West who are choosing to wear the burqa are doing so as an act of passive aggression against Western values. It’s yet another manifestation of the movement towards Islamisation of the Western hearts and minds.

          • Damaris Tighe

            The burqa as desert protection – like the Taureg men of North Africa.

    • The Masked Marvel

      Respect their way of life? Don’t be an idiot. Jews don’t want your respect. They would rather you to stop teaching your children to want to kill them all.

    • http://www.CaerphillyPreserves.co.uk/ No Good Boyo

      Which Jewish people?

      Do any Muslims ever insult Jewish gods? Or Jesus Christ?

      • Chris Morriss

        Muslims cannot insult the Jewish god, as it’s the same entity as their own god. Sadly both can insult the Christian God.

        • Jackthesmilingblack

          Insult away, guys. Ridicule, insults, abuse.
          Religion causes all the trouble in the world.

    • Damaris Tighe

      I’m guessing from your name you’re muslim. Muslims love hindu gods don’t they?

  • sebastian2

    Excellent piece by Melanie. I cannot see how any reasonable person could support Hamas and deny Hamas’ (Muslim Brotherhood they are the Gaza manifestation of the former Egyptian core – now deposed) murderous bigotry: its constitutional hatred of Jews and its doctrinal, mohammedan contempt for all other “infidels”. These are the most ugly of sentiments translated into a society committed to devilishness. The Gaza thugocracy poisons children’s minds and schools them in revenge and murder. It glories in suicide and bloodshed. It has perfected the art of victimism. Its leadership – now secretly probably very wealthy as Arafat was – places or incites its civilians into harms way as deliberate strategy. It tolerates no internal opposition. Are these people really worthy of support and sympathy?

    Idiots on the liberal left may think so. How misguided is it possible to be? Saner minds fortunately know otherwise: Hamas is a gruesome and disfigured aberration of what it is to be civilised. Their own population should be emancipated from them and from the brutal and misguided ideology that has possessed their minds. Gaza now free from Israeli “occupation”, is conquered and colonised by a demon.

    • Augustus

      Hear, hear!

      One of the recurring myths so loved to be repeated by lefties about the Gaza Strip’s relationship with Hamas is that this terrorist organization gained control through the electoral process. But in reality Hamas came to control the Gaza Strip by staging a violent coup a year and a half after it had only narrowly won the popular vote in the 2006 parliamentary elections, by overthrowing the rival Fatah party’s executive authority. Staging a coup and overthrowing an existing presidential and executive authority is not the same thing by any means as being elected to power.

    • Augustus

      Hear, hear!

      One of the recurring myths so loved to be repeated by lefties about the Gaza Strip’s relationship with Hamas is that this terrorist organization gained control through the electoral process. But in reality Hamas came to control the Gaza Strip by staging a violent coup a year and a half after it had only narrowly won the popular vote in the 2006 parliamentary elections, by overthrowing the rival Fatah party’s executive authority. Staging a coup and overthrowing an existing presidential and executive authority is not the same thing by any means as being elected to power.

  • obiwan

    A fantastic piece by a fantastic journalist. If only the BBC could ever – ever – come close to this level of honest reporting of the true situation in the region. Frankly, their coverage of the latest events in this ongoing conflict is biased beyond contempt.

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  • http://batman-news.com The Commentator

    Yes it must be truly terrifying for those IDF soldiers to march into a civilian enclave with no army, no airforce and no navy. Some old codger may take a pot shot at them with a rusting Kalashnikov. You can dress it up any way you like, the reality is the Israeli’s are slaughtering Arab civilians on an industrial scale and one day Bibi and all his generals will have to go to the Hague to answer for their crimes

    • James Lovelace

      ” a rusting Kalashnikov”

      How is it the starving Gazans are able to launch 1000 missiles in 1 week? That you choose such hyperbole shows you are simply a jew-hater.

    • Augustus

      “Israeli’s are slaughtering Arab civilians on an industrial scale…”

      This must be true ‘cos I read it in ‘The Commentator’. So why didn’t Hamas build any air-raid shelters for its people with its millions?

    • http://www.CaerphillyPreserves.co.uk/ No Good Boyo

      Where did the poverty-ridden Palestinians find the money to buy all these rockets?

      And what has happened to all those billions of dollars in international development aid that they’ve been receiving over the last couple of decades, but which seems to have had almost no impact at all upon the lives of ordinary Gaza citizens?

      What would such peace-loving people want with all those rockets anyway? And is Israel supposed to be ashamed that its opponents aren’t as good at killing Jews as they aspire to be?

      120 rockets fired into Israeli residential neighbourhoods on Sunday alone. Do you think the body-bag competition might be different if Israel hadn’t developed its Iron Dome anti-missile system? If Israel is such an aggressor, why has Hamas spent all that money buying rockets that aren’t much good, rather than buying a similar anti-missile system? Or a few air-raid shelters?

      Alternatively, why doesn’t Hamas just stop firing rockets at Israel? That way, Israel won’t have to be seen by its voters (Israel, unlike Hamas, is a democracy, don’t forget) taking action to respond. Because, trust me, if somebody fired a rocket at my kids’ primary school, I’d bloody well expect the government to DO something. To what extent does Hamas have a responsibility to promote its citizens’ interests, like Israel does?

      But I’m wasting my time, aren’t I? There is absolutely nothing on this planet can possibly convince you that Israel is anything other than the Great Satan, and the Palestinians are poor, repressed charity cases. You probably quit reading this after the first paragraph, just as soon as you realised that it wasn’t supportive of your opinion.

      • Damaris Tighe

        Yes, I’m afraid you’re wasting your time Boyo. Your analysis, based on common sense & morality, is just too simple for the convoluted lefty-liberal mind.

    • Damaris Tighe

      You lack imagination. It is truly terrifying for a young conscript, perhaps only 18 years old, to creep (march??????) into a heavily built up area where there may be armed men around every corner & civilians made to stay in their homes.

  • tolpuddle1

    “No country would tolerate it” – the HAMAS rocket attacks on southern Israel. But would any country tolerate the Israeli onslaughts on civilians in Gaza ? And HAMAS’ policy of involving civilians in the slaughter scarcely absolves Israel from slaughtering them.

    As for “tiny Israel”, it’s the world’s 4th leading military power.

    Melanie invites us to weep for young members of the Israel Defence Force who will be killed, and their parents – but she’s remarkably dry-eyed about the Palestinian children who’ve been killed and their parents.

    Like all the partisans of both sides in this conflict
    – she chooses to see only half the tragedy
    – she believes that two wrongs make a right.

  • tolpuddle1

    Melanie – your fear, anger and prejudice about the Middle East are doing you vastly more harm than they can ever do to HAMAS.

    And why are you trying to hollow-out, that is destroy, the Jewish faith by yoking it to the ludicrous, counter-productive policies of people like yourself and Netanyahu ? Why poison the Jewish faith with your own hysteria and injustice ?

    Israeli paranoia is all-too understandable in the light of history and Islamic fanaticism, but it’s worse than useless. The Israelis have thrown aside their traditional centre-left Western allies, and are thus reduced to cuddling up to the Western Right, bloodstained and myopic (and on the way out) though it is.

    • mohdanga

      It’s paranoid to be worried that your ‘neighbours’ explicit motivation is to destroy your race and country. Okey dokey then.
      Umm, it’s the Western left that constantly criticizes Israel and cozies up to the Muslim theocracies. Sounds like that’s been beneficial to Israel.

      • tolpuddle1

        It is paranoid when you’re the regional superpower and the world’s fourth military power.

        I wasn’t thinking of the dreary “anti-Zionist” Leftists; I was thinking of the people in the middle ground of politics whom Israel has been so willing to estrange ever since 1967.

        Consequence – Israel is in the power of the Western Right. There’s a mutual admiration club between Israeli Right and Western Right – two gangs of greedy and evil people gazing lovingly into each other’s eyes and encouraging each other in wickedness

        So not “beneficial to Israel” in the long run, especially as the neo-con era has gone and the West is in any case collapsing.

        • mohdanga

          Israel is the 11th military power according to this so don’t let this fact get in the way of your argument. Surrounded by hundreds of millions of Muslims who want to see it destroyed might have something to do with it.
          http://www.globalfirepower.com/countries-listing.asp
          As for the rest of your juvenile rant, well, keep up the good work.

        • http://www.CaerphillyPreserves.co.uk/ No Good Boyo

          The regional superpower? The world’s fourth military super power?

          Israel covers approximately 20,000 square kilometres, making it substantially smaller than Belgium.

          According to Wikipedia, Israel has about 176,000 active military personnel, putting it behind Turkey, Iran, Egypt, Iraq, and Saudi Arabia.

          As usual, the most strident denunciations, characterised by every noun being preceded by a minimum of one adjective, come from those who in reality know little of what they’re talking about.

          • tolpuddle1

            You know as well as I do, monsieur, that Israel – even without US backing – can take on any or all of the countries you mention and win hands down, whatever the numerical disadvantage – don’t weapons count, BTW ?

            P.S. Don’t mention the Nuclear Capability !

          • http://www.CaerphillyPreserves.co.uk/ No Good Boyo

            Since they keep invading Israel, and firing rockets at them, and agitating against them, what do you expect them to do? Be ashamed that the armies of their enemies aren’t as good at killing Jews as they aspire to be?

          • tolpuddle1

            The “invasion” of Israel by a few young loonies – who are promptly despatched by Israeli forces – isn’t a problem.

            Rocket launching is; I expect the Israeli forces to have the nous and ingenuity (they certainly have the military power) to take on the Hamas rocket-men without becoming as murderous as Hamas.

            At present it’s Groundhog Day, with Israeli forces repeating the failed tactics of the past, only more thoroughly.

        • TNT

          This is nothing to do with left or right. This is the prerogative of people to defend their country from those who would massacre every last one of them.

          Whether you feel estranged or not, or whether you are left or right, is irrelevant.

          • tolpuddle1

            “The prerogative of people to defend their country”, from enemies of horrific intent.

            So can this include using nuclear weapons or other WMD’s against the said enemies ?

            If not, where do you stop ?

            Perhaps at the point where you become Hamas’s mirror image, committing the same crimes that you denounce them for ?

          • TNT

            We invaded a country and killed tens of thousands for a far less real threat, remember? We are in no position to judge the Israelis for acting upon an actual, imminent and ongoing menace.

          • tolpuddle1

            I’m not passing judgement on the Israelis. In their shoes, I would have made the same mistakes. Ditto with the Palestinians.

            Things won’t improve in the Middle East until everyone stops playing the Blame Game and looks at the facts on the ground.

            Both the Jews and the Moslems are the prisoners of history – until, by some series of miracles, someone somewhere breaks free, this quarrel will, as we know, run and run.

    • Leocrumb

      Israel is fast becoming the torch bearer for the Western world. While those in the Western world descend into self-hatred, multi-culturalism and Sharia creep.

      • tolpuddle1

        Ah, the Good Old Days of the West !

        Colonialism, contempt for non-Westerners, militarism – for all of which the Israelis are, as you rightly say, still bearing the torch.

  • TNT

    I don’t understand why there even is a Gaza Strip. Whether it was a fair land grab or otherwise in 1948, why would you keep a ragtag of carpetbaggers right there in your midst, and then spend the next six decades watching them multiply? Madness.

    • Leocrumb

      When Egypt asked Arabs in the Negev desert to get out of the way so they could obliterate Israel, the Egyptians kept them in a camp, they did not let them become Egyptians. After the war which they lost but retained the territory of Gaza they decided to keep them there as political pawns, rather than helping their brothers and giving them citizenship. Today those pawns still remain.

  • tolpuddle1

    Two opposing groups of fanatics are scarcely more than mere mirror-images of each other; despite mutual hatred, they’re very much alike.

    Examples from history – Communists and Fascists, Stalinists and Nazis, Protestants and Catholics in Northern Ireland and back in the days of religious war. And today – Israel apologists and HAMAS.

    Each group thinks its opponents’ wickedness justifies their own – which is the sole meaning of Melanie Phillips’s article.

    Both groups pay the price – in inner emotional turmoil, in the death of the impartial reasoning intellect, in stone-heartedness and self-inflicted spiritual destruction.

    • Jacky Treehorn

      You are not trying to say that the Israelis are the mirror image of that bunch of savages are you?

      • GraveDave

        War can make savages of even the most civilised of people.

      • tolpuddle1

        Yes.

        To the impartial eye, the two groups are much-of-a-muchness. Both groups are blood-drenched, in innocent blood up to the elbow.

        The fanaticism and blasphemy of HAMAS are appalling; the mirror-image of Israeli injustice and blasphemy.

        The ordinary Israeli is complicit in savagery, as is the ordinary Palestinian.

    • mohdanga

      Yes, the Jews are the same as the death cult Muslims in Gaza. Please.

      • tolpuddle1

        A cult of harshness and militarism has taken hold of the Israelis since 1967.

        They’re not very different from the fanatics in the Arab camp.

        • http://www.CaerphillyPreserves.co.uk/ No Good Boyo

          They’re not using their citizens as human shields in Israel, are they?

          • tolpuddle1

            The claim that Hamas are using Palestinian civilians as human shields prompts two queries:
            1) Why in that case isn’t Hamas universally hated by Gaza Palestinians ? Clearly, it isn’t, though that may be thanks not least to Israel’s policies.
            2) As Gaza is about the most densely populated place on earth – a large, besieged open-air prison – it is impossible for civilians and Hamas fighters to be physically separated. The only way to accomplish this would be by the Hamas militants standing on Gaza’s beaches, presumably waving hankies at the Israeli warships.

          • http://www.CaerphillyPreserves.co.uk/ No Good Boyo

            1) How do you know? When was the last time Hamas stood for election in a free and democratic ballot, like Israel holds every four years? But what would you call it when Hamas stores munitions in the basements of primary schools?

            If it’s so impossible to separate Hamas fighters and civilians, why don’t they just stop firing missiles at Israel? Then Israel won’t fire anything back, and everybody can just get on with their lives in peace and quiet.

            Where did the money come from the buy all these missiles, by the way? The Palestinian Authority has enormous amounts of international development aid, which in twenty years, has made no discernible difference to the lives of Gaza residents whatever. And Hamas is always whining about how the dreadful Israelis are preventing Gaza’s economic development. But clearly they can find tens of millions of dollars to buy vast numbers of rockets (over a thousand so far) to fire at Israel, knowing what the response will be.

            Why don’t they just stop? As the governing authority of Gaza, why won’t Hamas take responsibility for the welfare of its citizens?

          • tolpuddle1

            “Hamas bad.”

            Yes, agreed.

            “Therefore Israel good.”

            Er, no, actually.

    • Leocrumb

      You couldn’t be more wrong.

      • tolpuddle1

        How ? Please elaborate.

  • Roger Hudson

    I don’t care if you are a Jew or a muslim, if you are in a ship shooting at four boys running scared across a beach I would sink you.
    The whole situation is a human tragedy and Britain bears a terrible responsibility, ever since the 1920 Mandate ( Pontius Pilate of the 20th century), and the only way out is for everybody to stop bleating on about their religious label.
    I don’t care if my neighbour Len Green is Jewish , he is just a man as i am, stop being a politico-religious troublemaker.

    • mohdanga
    • Leocrumb

      It is obviously a tragic mistake. Even from a cynical pov, there is NO military advantage to killing civilians, if anything the diplomatic fallout hurts Israel. I personally have no doubt that whoever had their finger on the trigger had no idea there where kids playing football in the way. I have never met an IDF soldier who did not take their ethical considerations extremely seriously. The IDF care infinitely more for the lives of the people of Gaza than Hamas do.

  • tolpuddle1

    The underlying Israeli position is the demand that the Palestinians “move on” from their sadness and anger at the massive sequestration of Arab land by the Israelis, notably settlers, since 1967.

    Obviously this “moving on” isn’t going to happen, and Israel has painted itself into a corner. The results are nihilism and futile anti-Arab (and anti-Moslem) rage on the part of apologists for Israel. Which solve nothing.

    The story of the Israeli land-grab is the usual pitiful but hilarious story of greedy people becoming possessed (taken over ! ) by their own possessions. Israel “possesses” the Occupied Territories (the West Bank etc) or rather, THEY possess Israel.

  • NIGEL

    tHE French RESISTANCE WAS NOT CALLED A tERRORIST organisation.
    Return the land stolen and occupied to the Arabs.

    • Augustus

      Just left school have we?

    • Leocrumb

      How are you even able to open a can of beans?

    • MissDemeanor

      yeah, give the arabs Israel so after 5 minutes they can turn it into yet another filthy squalerous dirty blood-soaked hellhole, like all of their other 57 countries, poor lambs…

  • Augustus

    Hamas believes that Israel is an illegitimate state, and therefore needs to be removed from the world map.Their very ideology makes a lasting peace with Israel impossible. With money from Iran and other countries it has built up a new arsenal of rockets. These are no longer primitive rockets, but missiles with a range of 100 miles and with an explosive load of 175 kilos. Hamas shoots these missiles at random into Israel aiming at everyone that lives there. These are terrible war crimes because they knowingly shoot deadly missiles at civilian targets without making any distinction between what is a civilian or a military target.. Furthermore, using their own people as human shields is another war crime. These criminal acts of terror are sufficient reason for the international community to cut off all financial aid to Hamas. And any nation who does continue to finance these criminals should themselves be accused of abetting war crimes.

  • Terry Field

    Yes, she always talks sense and I agree with her note here.
    The problem is the horror of Hamas – and the putrid death-love inherent in Islam. I would like to see the leadership of Hamas destroyed and wiped out – cut them out.
    They would not accept a cease – fire, so deal with the lot of them.

  • Benedict

    Time for the BALEN REPORT to be published.
    The BBC has spent hundreds of thousands of pounds of your money suppressing the publication of this report about its bias in covering Middle Eastern news.

  • global city
  • Flintshire Ian

    The unthinking hatred of many commentators is such that I have almost been expecting someone on a UK comment thread to blame MH17 on the Israelis as a cover for genocide in Gaza as the world’s attention is diverted.
    People who fire missiles at another country should expect to be attacked in return. Simples really.

    • Leocrumb

      lol, so true

  • Mrs Josephine Hyde-Hartley

    What about econocide? It’s hardly appropriate or necessary to interfere with the welfare of Gazans just because the security set up is so bad.

  • Pat Conway

    Hamas and the IDF are both sides of the same coin. The only difference is the IDF kill more children.

    • Leocrumb

      This could only come out the mouth of a person who hates civilized society.

      • Pat Conway

        Civilised society? What is so civilised by bombing the people of Gaza.

        • StanleyT

          So you would expect a “civilized” society to put up with the uncivilized rocketing of its civilians?

    • TNT

      That’s professionalism.

      Kudos to IDF.

      • Pat Conway

        TNT, you have just demonstrated your support for the murder of children.

        • TNT

          Totally! I ought to be made an honorary Muslim, right? After all, they’ve killed a hundred million children in total! I mean, no one catch match that amazing record, but we can always try where we can, right? 🙂

  • Billy Smith

    Melanie’s stance might just be credible if she showed the slightest compassion for the suffering of the Palestinians.

    • BeanHash

      Well said Billy. She’s not wrong to point out that there is suffering on both sides, but to suggest that solidarity with the Palestinians is anti-Semitic is whole-heartedly wrong and incendiary, at best. She is a divisive journalist who feeds off this type of controversy. What she says is only conducive to widening the gap of understanding between the two sides. She ought to be thoroughly ashamed of herself, but I’m sure she isn’t. It would be nice, as you say, to have some sense of objectivism, or really just any semblance of compassion for the Palestinians, who have suffered far greater losses over the past 60 years or so…

      • Augustus

        Widening the gap of understanding? You must be crazy. Just look at the rabidly anti-Semitic Muslims ‎around the world, supported by anti-Semites from the far Left. This unholy alliance of religious and secular ‎extremist nutters employs radical anti-Israelism as a surrogate for traditional anti-Semitism and is ‎now a fixture of our world and anti-Israeli demonstrations, where they wave placards with swastikas and ‎shamelessly accuse Israelis of emulating Nazis.

        • BeanHash

          Hi Augustus. I symphathise with what you’re saying. But I feel that you may be missing my point. I whole-heartedly concur that there exist anti-Semitic people, that there are such people as Muslim extremists, that they exist in vast quantities, and that far Left-leaning activists often blur the lines of conventional academic understanding, leading towards – as you call it – and “unholy alliance”. But this article previously went under the name of “Does the West/Left think there are not enough dead Jews” (to paraphrase), and has as it’s incendiary main-point the so-called “anti-Semitic West”. I’m sure you’ll understand that both of these statements carry a heavy polemical weight and suggest, irresponsibly (in my opinion), that any solidarity with displaced, murdered, persecuted Palestinians is a de facto “Anti-Semitic” manoeuvre. Is this, then, what you also believe, if you do not think this article is divisive? Or do you think perhaps there is a legitimate line of historical reasoning that would suggest causes for, say, the rise of Hamas (such as the previously mentioned displacements, the continued emphasis on Israeli expansionism in mainstream politics, and the 1st Intifada, and so on)? I do not sympathise with Hamas. I deplore them. But I do understand something of the context for this conflict and their uprising. This article is provocative, at best, and in citing “anti-Semitism” it immediately prevents legitimate, scholarly debate on the issue. Surely you must agree that we can afford to be more mature than this, when discussing the most hideous crisis of our time?

          • BeanHash

            I’m just reading your comment again. Since you say that anti-Israelism is a surrogate for anti-Semitism, do you perhaps believe that Israel is beyond criticism? Is it automatically anti-Semitic to criticize Israel? I fear we’re treading a dangerous path if that’s what you believe.

          • Augustus

            No, it is not ‘ automatically anti-Semitic to criticize Israel’ politically, as many in the Knesset itself often do. But Melanie is right to consider that Israel is morally superior in its dealings with its enemies. Her task (as, no doubt, she sees it) is to counterbalance much of the output by media such as the BBC, who appear to have been hijacked by ‎radical elements determined to demonize and delegitimize Israel. I understand what you are saying about there being suffering on both sides. Of course there are in any armed struggle, especially when that struggle involves a tiny country within a vast sea of potential enemies and multiple threats from implacable, non-state enemies like Hamas, Hezbollah, Islamic Jihad, al-Qaida, and the Islamic State group. How long has it been now that a belief that a ‘new Middle East’ was dawning based on peaceful cooperation with Israel? And that the establishment of a fully-fledged Palestinian state alongside Israel would guarantee security for Israel? These concepts have been proved to be illusions. Be they weak or nasty, moderate or extremist, ME Arabs, especially the Palestinians, cannot be relied upon to act in ways that meet Israel’s security needs. I’m sure Melanie, and most sane observers, would now agree that a Palestinian province or autonomous region is now all the Palestinians can ever hope for. A Palestinian ‘state’, as in ‘two-state solution’, is both a misnomer and an anachronism.

          • BeanHash

            Ok, yes. I agree, again. There are, as you say, a number of ‘potential enemies’. And I agree that they are indeed “terroristic” entities, precisely the ones you name: Hamas, Hezbollah, Islamic Jihad, Al-Quaida, and so on. But – I’m interested to know – where do you think these fanatical entities came from? Do you wish to ascribe a kind of malign ontology to all Arabic people? Do you believe that the organism of the “Arab” or “Muslim” is genetically pre-disposed to hate Israel and all Jews? Or do you think perhaps this vitriol and enmity has a political context, of which the displacement and persecution of Palestinians is an historical facet? If it is the former, then I suggest that it would be a racist and un-enlightened point-of-view or assumption. The suggestion that “Palestinians cannot be relied upon” is, I’m afraid, suspiciously indicative of this type of analysis. It suggests an intrinsic unreliability of the Arab and a countermanding “reliability” of the Jew. Do you mean to say that successive Israeli governments COULD be relied upon – not to expand, not to displace, and not to murder? Can you realistically envisage what it might have been like to be a Palestinian in 1948… honestly? I mean, I understand the desire for the creation of a Jewish state. I understand that both groups have historical and religious claims to the land. We can’t deny that. But if you were living somewhere and another, more powerful political and military entity came in to displace you forcefully, occasionally killing your friends and destroying your homes, do you think you might have something to say about it? And if that expansion continued (as it has done under Netenyahu), do you think also your opposition to this entity might just become more and more vitriolic and – as you say – “unreliable”? If terroristic and unreliable elements exist (I concur, they do), then it is precisely due to fact of a political context that created them. To suggest that they are naturally like this is a prejudicial fallacy…

          • Augustus

            Thank you for your long and well-meaning reply. Suffice to say I don’t agree with you. No, I don’t ‘wish to ascribe a kind of malign ontology to all Arabic people’, in fact, as I have posted elsewhere, most Arabs who were in Palestine during the 1920s and early 1930s actually welcomed Jewish immigrants and learnt a lot from them. Whenever skirmishes and hostilities occurred during the mandate period it was basically due to anti-Semitic Arab leaders, coupled with a stance by the British authorities. Palestine had been linked and earmarked exclusively to and for a Jewish National Home, as set down in the Balfour Declaration, a fact everyone was aware of at the time, including the representatives of the Arab national movement. It is simply plain wrong, to keep repeating ad infinitum that old chestnut that any Arab ‘Palestinians’ were displaced, and their properties and land somehow ‘occupied’ by nasty land-grabbing Zionists. The historical facts are not so, and anyway, what was left of Palestine after the British carved it up (mainly in favour of the Arabs) belongs exclusively to the Jewish people under international law.

          • BeanHash

            That’s interesting. Thank you. I’m sure there are plenty of things I don’t know about this, so thank you for cogently piecing together an opposing view-point, I honestly appreciate it. But I guess I still don’t understand a thing or two about what you’re saying: surely the demarcated boundaries of the Jewish state of Israel do prohibit Arabic or Muslim governance from taking place? It is a “Jewish State”, afterall – which in turn implies a kind of ethnocracy, or worse, a theocracy, since the “right” to this land is based in religious scripture? Perhaps, I’m wrong. So surely Arabic and Muslim factions are indeed prohibited from residing in Israel and still partaking in meaningful political life and discourse? I’m also confused about the assertion that Palestinians have not been historically displaced from the land now known as “Israel”. What do you mean by this? According to my (admittedly amateur and recent) research, the United Nations Relief and Works Agency estimates that there are 4,950,000 patrilineal descendants of displaced Palestinians. If they do not exist, why does this figure exist? This figure is (allegedly) the result of 711,000 displaced Palestinians between 1946 and 1948. – I suppose, at the time (if I were afforded the luxury of hindsight, or retrospect), I would have advocated 1 state solution: a “Palestine”, whose landmass would occupy the entirety of what is now Israel, as well as Gaza and the West Bank, whose secular politics afforded the provision of a “right-to-return” for the Jewish diaspora. Instead, what we have, is a Jewish state that claims Jerusalem as its capital, at the expense of the same claim made by Arab Muslims. Now, unless you endorse the religious, doctrinal right-of-the-land for Jews over the same right for Muslims, then how can we say this is fair? Perhaps you do believe in the scripture? I would be interested to know what you think…

          • Augustus

            Thanks. I’ll reply when I have a bit more time.

          • StanleyT

            You clearly have a huge problem with the existence of “Jewish” state. Do you have the same problem with the existence of 22 Islamic states?
            You hav ea problem with the creation of a state for Jews in the Middle East. Do you have a problem with the creation of Iraq (Mesopotamia), Syria and Lebanon? They were created at the same time and by exactly the same process as the Jewish homeland.

            Do you have a problem with the creation of Jordan? It was sliced off Mandatory Palestine and given to the Hashemites and has always had a policy of refusing land sales to Jews. (incidentally, there is no prohibition on land sales to Arabs in Israel).

          • Damaris Tighe

            Two points I’d add to this: Lebanon was intended to be the state of the Christian Arabs parallel to the Jewish state (that went well didn’t it) & Jordan is really eastern Palestine.

          • StanleyT

            Great points, thank you!

          • Augustus

            Going back to the interwar years, one of the questions being asked behind the scenes was whether the Jewish needs in Palestine could be allowed to endanger a wider British need for the support of Muslims worldwide. One of the great attractions of Zionism had always been that the Jews in Palestine would be masters of their own destiny. Unfortunately the British succumbed to Arab pressure. But when Hitler came to power and attacks on Jews in Germany started, few of the immigrants into Palestine were Zionists. Their motivation was simply to escape persecution. After WW2, the United Nations came out in support of a two-state solution for Palestine. But In response the armies of five Arab states went to war with the aim of preventing the implementation of that UN resolution. It wasn’t the foundation of the Jewish state itself, but that aggressive war and the defeat of the Arab armies in 1949 that created the mass flight and exclusion of Arabs from Palestine, with all the well-known consequences that we keep hearing about. The Arabs leaders refusal to accept any partition proposal was a major reason for the outbreak of the war in 1948, a war in which the majority of indigenous Palestinian Arabs actually abstained from the struggle. The Grand Mufti had, in fact, to rely on the notoriously anti-Semitic Muslim Brotherhood for his mass support. The hatred of Jews, already systematically promulgated by the Nazis between 1939 and 1945, and whipped up still further by Amin el-Husseini and the Muslim Brotherhood from 1946 to 1948, was undoubtedly the main trigger for a defining moment in the history of the Israeli/Arab conflict.

  • LaurenceBoyce

    “People have looked at the casualty count – around 200 Palestinians killed at the time of writing, while only a handful of Israelis have been injured or killed – and decided that this proves Israel is a monstrous aggressor.”

    Er, yes. Outcomes do matter Melanie. Whatever made you think that they didn’t?

    • BeanHash

      True, LaurenceBoyce. Well said. In response to your comment, the Far-right, Pro-Israeli arguments will insist that Netenyahu’s government innocently warned the civilians that their houses and livelihoods would be bombed, and that therefore it was a fair and just pursuance of Hamas by Netenyahu and his cronies. Well, this is also partially true. They did warn them and did provide a small opportunity for them to flee. But this is NOT a “just” pursuance. Thousands of Palestinians have now fled, many of their homes and livelihoods have been destroyed, and Israel is still pursuing an admittedly hate-filled, terroristic insurgency THAT THEY HELPED TO CREATE IN THE FIRST PLACE. There must be some balance in the analysis. The line of argument that would see Hamas “once-and-for-all destroyed” (to paraphrase the current Israeli government’s initiative), is completely ignorant of the fact that violence creates more violence. The more you pursue Hamas with airstrikes, the more virulently and irresponsibly they will rise, again and again. Do they think that the newly displaced and injured Palestinian civilians will not resort to far-right, Hamas-style tactics in the future? They must be completely INSANE!!! Israel needs realise that in order to prevent further terrorism, it MUST make territorial concessions and have the decency to admit its own historical wrong-doings, not simply demonise Arabs and Muslims as the sole cause of the issue…

      • Augustus

        Israel phones all targeted areas to warn them to evacuate. What does Hamas do? It tells them to stay and die. One Hamas leader forced 17 innocent people on to his own roof hoping to save his home. The IDF had warned they were going to flatten the house and they did.
        The Hamas leader together with 17 other people (some children) all died. So, whose fault was that? The IDF even drops a non-exploding ‘knock-knock’ bomb onto the roof of an enemy target to give people extra time to get out. Only then is the place is flattened.

        • BeanHash

          If you read my previous comment carefully, I predicted this would be the line of your argument. I can’t dispute what you’re saying, and I wouldn’t try to. Because I agree with you. But you don’t seem to be listening to the fundamental point. Hamas exists precisely because Israel has persecuted Palestinians over the course of decades. Admittedly, it would be difficult to see a situation now where Hamas’ activities completely ceased, but – if you are serious about wanting this, and about wanting any kind of two-state solution – then the Israeli government must stop adopting policies of settlement-expansion. It must make historical concessions for its wrong-doings. If you steal homes and land from people, and you purposefully murder and injure dissenting elements of their population (see the UN’s analysis of the 1st Intifada) then OF COURSE they’re going to revert to disorganised and terroristic strategies to combat you. It would be madness – EVEN FROM ISRAEL’S OWN SECURITY PERSPECTIVE – not to realise that each violence, suppression, displacement and expansion directly result in this terrorism.

          • StanleyT

            I have just one word in response to your entire hate-=filled rant. BS. You can spell it out for yourself.

            How many times has Israel offered land and peace to the Arabs? Start in 1937, with the Peele report. Include the 1947 UN Partition, Camp David, Jerusalem in 2008 and every other “negotiation” in between. Consider every single “No”, the “Palestinians” have issued, every single time. No to the Peele Report. No the UN Partition. The three NOs of Khartoum after the 1967 War. No at Camp David. No in Jerusalem. No to the Roadmap. No to Kerry.

            When will you understand that for the “Palestinians”, it’s not about having their own state. It’s about destroying the Jewish one.

          • BeanHash

            Is speaking from an Israeli-security perspective a “hate-filled rant”? I hope not. I’m not a Palestinian. I’m not Hamas. I’m not hate-filled. Call me what you will, but I would like – ultimately – Arabs and Jews to co-exist peacefully. But you again seem to be assuming (like this article does), that criticising Israel is automatically anti-Semitic (or to repeat you own expression, “hate-filled”). I would ask you a serious question, then: would you accept Israel, if you were a Palestinian? If so, why? A political entity that has told you are aren’t allowed to live there anymore, displaced you, injured and murdered you. What possible reason would you have for “accepting” this state? I guess you might posit me as an historical idealist, but I – and I’m sure many others, Palestinians included – might’ve preferred the creation or maintenance of 1 Palestinian state, with a “right of return” for Jewish people, in 1948, commissioned and endorsed and supervised by the consensus of an international community whose interest was peace. I can’t presume to know anything about you, but I would go as far to suggest that most, if not all, human beings, do not like being forcefully removed from their homelands and then audaciously asked to “accept” the fact. Honestly, honestly, honestly, please be real… would you accept this?

          • StanleyT

            ” political entity that has told you are aren’t allowed to live there anymore, displaced you, injured and murdered you”

            this is why your questions cannot be answered. That is pure “Palestinian” propaganda and you have bought it hook line and sinker.

          • BeanHash

            Ok Stanley. I can’t force you to answer the question. If
            I’m wrong, it would be nice to have a genuine discussion about the point-of-fact and the minutia of our disagreement. Perhaps you could enlighten me? You seem very angry, sir. I’m not your enemy. If you read the rest of my comments on this page, you’ll see that I make numerous concessions and do not believe in terrorism or the destruction of Israel, or anything similar. As I previously stated, I believe in peace between Arab-Muslims and Jews. Don’t you? I guess, for me, the onus is on the Israeli government to make territorial
            concessions to obtain that peace. But I’m sure you have a different opinion. What is it? Are you a Zionist or do you believe in the possibility of the two peoples sharing the land (or at least, Jerusalem)? How peace?

          • StanleyT

            I most certainly do believe in the possibility of two peoples sharing the land, but I have serious doubts about it. here’s why.

            When the Jews first started returning to the Holy Land at the end of the 19th century (remember, there has been an unbroken of some Jews in the area for 3,000 years – and at that time, Jerusalem had a majority Jewish population), there were, admittedly, more Arabs than Jews in the area. But there were not nearly as many Arabs as arrived in the wake of the Jewish success. There was a huge influx of Arabs as the Jews set about draining swamps and building infrastructure. (Some evidence: Why was it necessary for UNRWA to define a “Palestinian refugee” as somebody who had been in the region for a mere 2 years?)

            Now that we’ve arrived at that period, let’s discuss 1947 and the UN Partition Plan. Remember, the Jews had already been promised all of Mandatory Palestine as their homeland. This was not a huge disadvantage to the Arab population. They were given everything else – the entire remainder of the Middle East – and the Jews had never demonstrated any intention whatsoever to “displace, injure or murder” any of their immediate Arab neighbours. On the contrary, their Arab neighbours had displayed exactly those intentions towards them. Witness the Hebron riots of 1929 and the immediate outbreak of hostilities after the vote (Arabs erupted in violence the very same night, even as the Jews were dancing in the streets.)

            Newly released British archive material proves Jewish claims that they begged the Arabs to stay, while Arab League leaders ordered them to leave. So again, the Jews did not set out to displace the Arabs. As for injuring and murdering, the Jews acted mostly in self-defence, something that you and many in the West, appear to deny them, even now. 5 Arab armies attacked and the Jews literally fought for their lives.

            When Jordan illegally occupied Jerusalem, it immediately banned Jews from their holy places and desecrated them. Incidentally, how does the 19-year Jordanian occupation of Jerusalem and its Jewish holy places outweigh 3000 years of Jewish history and give the Arabs a claim to some portions of Jerusalem as the capital of their state – portions that include Judaism holiest site of all?

            I’m afraid that given all this history, I get extremely angry when we are accused of “displacing, injuring and murdering” the very people whose entire raison d’être is to displace, injure and murder US! (Another reminder: 60% of Israel’s current Jewish population can trace its roots to the Arab world, coming from Jewish families who actually WERE displaced, injured and murdered in countries like Iraq, Morocco, Tunisia, Algeria and Egypt).

          • BeanHash

            Thank you Stanley. I appreciate your response. I’m sorry if I was insensitive and any of my rhetoric upset you, previously. My immediate reaction would be to say that Muslims also have a scriptural claim to this land, do they not? I happen not to be religious, or even to believe in the immutable bounds of “ethnicity”, as such, since I defer to a combination of contemporary discourses on evolution and social-constructivist theories of identity (meaning that, we all descend from the shores of Africa, and that, thereafter, identity – religious or ethnic or otherwise – is something that is culturally constructed). I do not believe in a “Jew” or a “Muslim”, per say, not in the totality of the mainstream definition. Therefore, the alleged “holiness” of the site of Jerusalem is always going to be baffling to me. As far as I’m concerned, nobody is ENTITLED to that land. The fact that Jewish people were promised it, does not make it their, without question, immutably… does it? Perhaps you do think so? But I think you must also take heed of the fact that Jews are not the only entity laying claim to it, and that both claims are as metaphysically legitimate as the other, i.e. why privilege Jewish scripture and arbitrary promises over Muslim scripture and arbitrary claims? – I thank you again for informing me of your understanding of the historical context, and I sympathise with your feelings and your identity as a Jewish person. But unfortunately, the contemporary context is quite different to the history that you outline, isn’t it? The “Jewish State” is a demarcated, territorial region that is bolstered by a militarised faction of Israeli politicians and other, fairly vitriolic personnel, as well as a rich and powerful American-Jewish lobby and the cultural hegemony of Hollywood and the far-right press, Fox News, etc. Palestinians do not have the same cultural voice as Israelis. They are by-and-large relatively disenfranchised. They do not have the money or the infrastructure that the Israelis have, hence the violence and the disorientation and the un-coordinated terror that ravages the region. The fact that Israel is a “Jewish State” and not a “Secular State”, where both Jews and Muslim-Arabs can legitimately partake in political discourse and activity, is the thing that will continue to anger Arab-Muslims and cause significant racial tensions and terrorism for the foreseeable future. Do you agree with any of this?

          • StanleyT

            BeanHash, I think you’re the one who’s living in a dream world. You seem to think that Israel being a Jewish state means nobody else is allowed. Yet 20% of Israel’s population is not Jewish and they enjoy full freedom of religion, association and everything else. They stand for and get elected to Israel’s parliament, they attend Israel’s universities, live wherever they want (unlike Jews. Heaven help any Jew who wants to live in an Arab city) and they are treated in the same hospitals as everyone else. Another interesting point: do you know what happens to a Jew who attempts to pray at Judaism’s holiest site, the Temple Mount? If he isn’t arrested by the Israeli police (yes, ISRAELI POLICE!), he risks being lynched by an Arab mob.

            Another mistake you make is to assume that the Jews claim exclusivity and have always done so. The Jews have demonstrated a willingness right from the very beginning to share the land. They said so when they accepted the Peel Report in 1937, the UN Partition in 1948, the Oslo Agreement in 1993, the Camp David proposals in 2000, the Jerusalem proposal in 2008 and, most recently, when they released hundreds of terrorist murderers with blood on their hands, just for the possibility of talking about the possibility of peace.

            I don’t think you realize this, but Jews have been evicted and ejected from Arab countries, while Israel has not evicted or ejected its own Arab population. (Before 1948, Jews and Arabs lived all over what was left of Mandatory Palestine after the removal of Jordan. After 1948, there was not a single Jew in the Old City of Jerusalem – not even in the Jewish Quarter – or in Judea and Samaria, the ancient heartland of Israel; in contrast, 20% of Israel’s population was, and still is, Arab.) The Arabs of Israel, in fact, enjoy more freedom of religion and more political rights than any Arabs anywhere else in the Middle East.

            I would really encourage you to read the Hamas and PLO Charters (no, the PLO did not change its charter after signing the Oslo Agreements; they talked about changing it, but they didn’t actually do it). I think you will find their perspective on living in a country “where both Jews and Muslim Arabs can legitimately partake in political discourse and activity” very enlightening. And I remind you again, at the risk of being boringly repetitive, that right now, Jews and Muslim Arabs in Israel actually do live in a country where they can all legitimately partake in political discourse and activity.

            I don’t think Israel is completely blameless, but you seem to be saying that Israel is the only blameworthy participant in all this. That’s the kind of thinking that makes me so angry.

          • BeanHash

            That’s not what I’m saying at all. I have repeatedly condemned the actions of Hamas and other terrorist organisations, in almost every one of my comments on here. To say that I’m solely laying the blame on Israel, you’re not being realistic or fair, at all. I’m an atheist/agnostic English-person and yet discursively I’m certainly a minority on here, so you’ll have to forgive me if I’m simply presenting a counter-point to the rabid Zionism that plagues a lot of these comments (not yours, btw, but many on here!) – So, tell me, can a Muslim be prime minister in Israel? Why do we call it a “Jewish State” and not a shared, secular one? If you tell me IT IS secular, then why “Jewish”? I’m aware the identity holds both an ethnic AND a religious value, but we all know it is a “Jewish State” based on scriptural authority, when it comes down to it. So, to say it is secular in actuality would be a falsehood. The two terms (“Jewish” and “Secular” are mutually exclusive, when taken in the religious sense). These are the fundamental issues that Arabic Muslims will always have with that territory? Why believe Jewish scriptural right over Muslim? You talk about “returning to the Holy land”, so please don’t evade the topic. To say this, you must believe in an immutable right for Jews over Muslims? Also, you point to numerous instances of apparent concessions made by the Israeli government, and yet you say nothing about the territorial expansions that directly contradict these concessions? I admit, your knowledge of, and ability to quote, various accords is impressive and seemingly informed. But what does this mean, if you completely ignore the question of expansion and the de-contiguous partition of Palestinian land? Netenyahu has continued to allow expansion, based on “population growth”. So this is – wait for it – continued expansion of the “Jewish state”, at the expense of Palestinian land, is it not?

          • StanleyT

            There is nothing in Israeli law to prevent the election of a Muslim prime minister. However, this is obviously highly unlikely because 80% of the population of Israel is Jewish.

            You also seem somewhat confused about the nature of the Jewishness of Israel. Its laws are based on Judaic law, yes, but it still has a legislature that passes laws and that is democratically elected to do so.

            What confuses me is your apparent abhorrence of the very notion of a Jewish state, and yet your complete equanimity when it comes to 22 Islamic states – none of which offer any kind of democracy.

            As for “immutable Jewish rights”, once again, I think you misunderstand me. While I do believe that Jews have an historic, biblical and ethical claim to the Holy Land, I don’t base our claim on any of that. Instead, I base it on international law.

            In 1921, at the San Remo Conference, the allied powers who had won World War 1 got together to decide who would get which part of the Middle East. They had already decided who would get which parts of Europe and this was the inevitable continuation of the process.

            They divided the Middle East into mandates. The Mandate for Palestine set aside all of then Palestine for the Jewish people. As another poster pointed out above, the Mandate for Lebanon was supposed to be Christians. The Arabs got everything else – and it was a lot. All of Syria and all of Mesopotamia, now Iraq.

            In 1922, Britain unilaterally sliced off some 80% of Mandatory Palestine and gave it to the Hashemites, imposing a foreign monarchy onto what was, ethnically and culturally, an Arab population that today would identify as “Palestinian”.

            Not one of the Arab countries today would allow a Jew into its parliament – if it even had a parliament. Not one of them would allow a Jew to vote. Many of them do not allow Jews to buy property. Israel allows Arabs to do all of these things. So I fail to understand your objections to the notion of a Jewish state, especially when that Jewish state offers its Arab citizens far more democratic rights than they would enjoy if they lived in a neighbouring Arab country.

            And the Arabs know it too. Poll after poll of “Palestinian” Arabs living in Jerusalem (i.e. those who are not Israeli citizens but who do have residency and all the privileges and benefits of citizenship – health care, education, etc – except the right to vote) has shown that they would rather be ruled by Israel than any future “Palestinian” state.

            As for expansion, please provide actual, real evidence of actual, real “expansion”. The government of Israel has approved a number of new projects (some in parts of Jerusalem where Jews had lived for centuries, except from 1948 – 1967), but not a single shovel has broken ground.

          • BeanHash

            Thank you Stanley. I don’t have time to answer this right now, but I will, I promise. In short, I do object to numerous “Muslim states”. But that is not what this article discusses. Hence, I haven’t mentioned it. I feel like you might be being evasive on the issue of expansion. I think you know what I mean. There is a Jewish state and it has gotten bigger and bigger, since 1948. I really can’t go into this now. You must know what I mean? But I don’t have time. I don’t find the idea of a Jewish state abhorrent. But I do find it abhorrent if its at the expense of a Muslim-Arabic state. And, in fact, I do find it abhorrent (I find the “Jewish” and the “Muslim” state abhorrent) if/when it is founded and based on scripture, AKA “The Holy Land” and Jerusalem. I’m not an anti-Semite. Far from it. I love Jews and all other people of the world. But, until next time, just a few words: Religious rights. Boundaries. Settlements. Water. Hegemony. That’s all I’ll say for now.

          • StanleyT

            but I have just finished arguing that the Jewish state is based on international law, not on any biblical claims. As the indigenous people of the holy land, Jews have returned to it.

            And no, the Jewish state has not expanded, it has shrunk. From the original Mandatory Palestine, it shrank to 20% when Jordan was created. In 1948, the Jews accepted half of that 20%. 5 Arab armies attacked and lost – so yes, then, the Jewish state grew, but it wasn’t at the expense of a Muslim Arab state because there was NO Muslim Arab state there. There was only a lot of land that had been ruled by the Ottomans and which they had lost and which had then been placed under a British Mandate.

            I would suggest you read Israel’s declaration of independence. That, not the Bible, is what the state is based on. I think you’ll be very surprised.

            Religious rights: Israel allows more freedom of religion than any other country in the region; as much as any democracy in the world, except, ironically, to Jews! Jews are not allowed to pray in their holiest place, on the Temple Mount, to appease the Arabs.

            Water: this is yet one more blood libel. When you have time, read this: besacenter.org/perspectives-papers/truth-behind-palestinian-water-libels/

            Boundaries: As I’ve already said, Israel has been trying to agree on boundaries with her neighbours since 1937. They’re the ones who’ve repeatedly said no.

            Hegemony: I don’t understand your point.

          • Stephen Duke

            I want to address something you’ve assumed to be true but which is in fact false. The Quran makes no claim to the land of Israel on behalf of Muslims, rather it quite clearly states in several places that the holy land was promised by Allah to the Jews. It even repeats the prophecy found in Deuteronomy 28-35, that at the end of days the Jews will return. There rightly ought be no religious aspect to this conflict as the holy texts of each religion agree that the land of Israel was given as an eternal possession to the Jewish people by the creator of the universe. You would think that might settle the issue in the eyes of believers! Anyway, this reality invalidates much of what you wrote.

            Secondly, the word promised does not adequately express what was decided at San Remo. The land was not promised to the Jews at San Remo, rather the pre-existing ownership rights of the Jewish nation were recognised, that is, Jews were recognised as the indigenous people of the land , Jewish national rights to the land were recognised as was the right of the Jewish nation to reconstitute their national home. In effect, the promise made was that the international community would facilitate the return of those Jews who wished to return to their ancestral homeland and live alongside the existing Jewish population. That the British reneged on this promise at the very moment that Jews were trying to flee the Nazi gas chambers only compounds the betrayal.

            Finally, you misunderstand what the term Jewish state means. France is a French state, Israel is a Jewish state. The Jewish people are a nation which shares a common religion, Judaism. A Jewish state simply means that this is the national home of the Jewish people. The result is a state which reflects Jewish culture, much of which originates in the Jewish religion. Examples of this being, the official national rest day is Saturday, Jewish religious festivals are national holidays, etc. This in no way negates the individual political and civil rights of non-Jewish citizens and its ridiculous to say that it does. When the Palestinians reject the demand that they recognise Israel as the nation state of the Jewish people, they are being asked no to accept second-class citizenship for their compatriots in Israel but rather they are being asked to accept that Jews are the indigenous people of the region who have as much right to be here as they do. It is this simple fact that their leadership rejects and has rejected since Jews began to return.

    • Augustus

      “Outcomes do matter….”

      Because of the continuous heavy rocket attacks by Hamas Israel struck back hard. And that is a natural outcome of such a criminal action. The Palestinian body count is the (to Hamas probably welcome) result of taking such action.

  • First L

    So what you’re saying Mel is that nearly 200+ dead Palestinian Children, are not equal to a single dead Israeli soldier?

    • StanleyT

      Oh for heaven’s sake, you people are impossible. That is not what she is saying at all. She is saying that because Hamas targets Israeli civilians, it makes itself a target. She is also saying that because Hamas hides and stores its weapons among its own civilians – and then uses its civilians as human shields when it fires those weapons – it’s inevitable that “Palestinian” civilians will be caught in the cross-fire.

      She is saying that to blame Israel for trying to stop relentless rocket fire into her cities – and then to further blame Israel for Hamas’s policy of using human shields – is blatant anti-Semitism.

      • First L

        Except it’s not blatant anti-semitism is it. It’s blatant anti-murder of children.

        • StanleyT

          Tell that to Hamas. Tell them to stop firing from behind children.

          • First L

            If criminals hide behind children. YOU DON’T F***ING SHOOT THE CHILDREN!

            How does it feel to be sat behind your keyboard advocating child mass murder?

          • StanleyT

            If criminals hide behind children and shoot at you, what do you do then? You tell the children to get out of the way and you shoot back. If the criminals pull the children back just as you’re shooting, you are not responsible.

          • First L

            Remember earlier this year when terrorists invaded an African Mall and shot a load of folk? When there were hundreds of children in the Mall. Guess what the authorities did not do. They did not go in and shoot the children. They shot the bad guys.

            See Abdullah’s comment as well to see Israel hiding behind child hostages.

            Bunch of murderous hypocrites, and then you wonder why Israel gets criticised and moan that its anti semitic.

            It is not anti semitic to point out that Israel is murdering the innocent. Just like the Russians murdered 300 innocent people yesterday, just because they happened to be in a war zone.

            Go away you evil, evil man.

          • TNT

            What ARE you blabbering on about, you psychopath? The shooters in the Westgate mall in Kenya didn’t have children with them, but they shot 30 non-Muslim children. Stop lying, and stop being hysterical. Muslims are never victims.

          • First L

            Muslims are never victims?

            So this baby is not a victim?

            http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_NE-72ZXux-g/SW5CeFqChcI/AAAAAAAAHvQ/UG4N6Zsiwp4/s400/pic.jpg

          • TNT

            Islam has rendered MILLIONS of casualties like that. Pull yourself together.

          • First L

            Please name the massacres perpetrated by Islam (please note that Islam is different to Islamism as practiced by Osama Bin Laden, Boko Harem, ISIS etc).

          • TNT

            There is no such thing as Islamism. It is all the same thing, driven by the rantings of the same ancient madmen. Your recent successes have taken place in:

            India, the Sudan, Algeria, New York, Pakistan, Israel, Russia Chechnya, the Philippines, Indonesia, Nigeria, England, Thailand, Spain, Egypt, Bangladesh, Saudi Arabia, Turkey, Morocco, Yemen, Arkansas, France, Uzbekistan, Gaza, Tunisia, Kosovo, Bosnia, Mauritania, Kenya, Eritrea, Syria, California, Kuwait, Somalia, Virginia, Ethiopia, Georgia, Jordan, United Arab Emirates, Louisiana, Texas, Tanzania, Illinois, Australia, Pennsylvania, Belgium, Denmark, East Timor, Qatar, Maryland, Tajikistan, the Netherlands, Afghanistan, Chad, Canada, China, Nepal, the Maldives, Argentina, Mali, Angola, the Ukraine, Uganda, North Carolina, Germany, Arizona, Lebanon, Iran, Kazakhstan, Sweden, Azerbaijan, Iraq, Scotland, Macedonia, Bulgaria, Cameroon, Massachusetts.

            I hope that’s enough to be going on with for now, although I appreciate what a waste of time it is communicating with those steeped in sociopathy from the day of their birth.

          • First L

            Thus proving that you know bugger all.

          • TNT

            Thus proving that you are another Muslim in denial, because it suits your supremacist agenda.

          • First L

            You couldn’t be more wrong. But then again that hasn’t stopped you so far in this conversation.

          • TNT

            I know it’s hard having your genocidal instincts curbed, but one of the most wonderful elements of this latest inbreed crackdown in Gaza has been watching the empty angst of people like you. Who said that frothing of the mouth can’t be beautiful?

          • First L

            I’m CofE. Like I said, you clearly haven’t let being wrong stop you in your words. So they presumably aren’t stopping you in your actions. Maybe one day the police will.

          • TNT

            Being C of E doesn’t excuse you of being a genocidal pig, or hadn’t you heard?

          • First L

            There’s only one genocidal pig here. Ain’t me.

          • TNT

            I can hear you gnashing from here.

          • TNT

            Same old same old supremacy and denial.

          • TNT

            Thus proving you are a liar.

          • TNT

            After your Muslim friends had finished in the Mall (they killed 30 children), there weren’t that many left for anyone to find.

            More mad Muslim nonsense.

          • Abdullah
          • TNT

            No you do shoot the children. You shoot whoever and whatever is threatening your society. Muslims have murdered 300 million people in the wretched 1400 years of their history and millions of those were children.

            Stop being so false.

          • TNT

            Step away from the caps lock, hypocrite. You would be happy to kill every Jewish child alive today.

          • First L

            You’re the one going to get them killed.

          • TNT

            It’s unlikely that there will be a balance of casualties. Resources are no more equal than cultures are, and of that I am very grateful. I will continue to champion a great progressive nation over a bunch of boxer-nosed indolent inbreeds any day.

          • First L

            Ah. So we finally get to the nub of your attitudes. Basic black and white racism.

            I bet you’d scream blue murder if anyone was racist towards the jews.

          • TNT

            You’ve been racist since your first post.

          • First L

            A. I haven’t.
            B. Which one of us has a racist sign as their avatar picture.

            No you’ve finally lost all claim to reality. I’ll leave you to your LSD induced nightmares of slaughtering muslim children.

          • TNT

            Your exclusive foaming over Jewish children’s deaths gives you away instantly. And Islam is a dogma, not a race, which you would know if you had an IQ anywhere near double digits.

          • First L

            Foaming over Jewish children’s deaths? Nope. Notwithstanding the fact that 200 Palestinian children are dead from having illegal white phosphorus and fleschette shells dropped on them, compared to 3 Jewish teenagers. All are a tragedy but one is a much bigger tragedy than the other. Not that you’d know about that.

            And as for your racism. You’d happily wipe out anyone with brown skin.

            Anyway, you’re a pig. I’m done with you.

          • TNT

            You’re a warmonger. Nothing can disguise that. You thrive on very limited skirmishes where you can safely and acceptably express your loathing and bloodlust. This is precisely that kind of skirmish, because it involves Jews and Muslims. They’ll sort it out between themselves eventually, but you’ll always be an armchair war criminal.

          • First L

            Piss off you old fart. If you haven’t noticed, your racist comment was removed from the Spectator long ago. No one’s reading this conversation except you and me. You’re an imbecilic shambles of a murdering racist twat with shit for brains and the certainty of the devil feasting on your pancreas in the hellfire to which your murderous ass is headed.

            Have a nice day now.

          • TNT

            Firstly, I’m younger than you. Younger, richer, smarter.

            Secondly, flagging comments doesn’t actually make your impotent ‘argument’ any stronger. It just shows how inadequate and insecure you are in your fluffily genocidal position.

            Thirdly, people like you have for decades now agitated for Arabs in Gaza to be in a vicarious, never-ending battle on your behalf with an undefeatable and unnecessary foe, without any thought (or care) whatsoever for the consequences.

            The concept of hell is even more remote than the Church of England’s credibility and future survival, but if there is one, you and other selectively humanitarian humanitarians will be down there.

            In the meantime, enjoy the Jobcentre, and tell them you’re looking for something with stone-throwing and Molotov cocktails… just so long as teenagers will do the throwing and dying for you.

          • TNT

            Firstly, I’m younger than you. Younger, richer and smarter.

            Secondly, flagging comments doesn’t actually make your impotent ‘argument’ any stronger. It just shows how inadequate and insecure you are in your fluffily genocidal position.

            Thirdly, people like you have for decades now agitated for Arabs in Gaza to be in a vicarious, never-ending battle on your behalf with an undefeatable and unnecessary foe, without any thought (or care) whatsoever for the consequences.

            The concept of hell is even more remote than the Church of England’s credibility and future survival, but if there is a firepit somehwere, you and other selectively-humanitarian humanitarians will be down there.

            In the meantime, enjoy the Jobcentre today, and stress to them that you are looking for something that involves stone-throwing and Molotov cocktails… just so long as teenagers will do the throwing and dying for you. Filth.

          • mohdanga

            Muslims and Arabs aren’t racist???? Ha, ha, ha…..

    • TNT

      And indeed, they are not. This is a war. Each side protects ITSELF during a war. The Israelis aren’t going to conveniently lie in a grave that your wishful thinking has created for them.

      • First L

        I look forward to seeing you on trial for war crimes at the Hague.

        • TNT

          Well that would be more likely than any Muslim ever appearing there. Glumfaced victimhood has its advantages, as you know. Or has had, until now.

  • Terence Hale

    Hi,
    “Do Israel’s critics think there are not enough dead Jews?” I think there strategy is “Give ’em enough rope, and they’ll hang themselves”.

  • readysf

    The problem is Gaza is that is is under siege. Israel attacked when Hamas and Fatah reconciled, AND the US approved. Israel was alarmed that it may actually need to make peace, hence the attack.

    Killing trapped people is profoundly evil. Even one Gaza dead is too much. As far as equivalence is concerned….”all men are created equal”. The 4 kids mirdered by Israel on the beach could have been Jewish kids, it would be the same.

    • StanleyT

      BS! Israel attacked after scores of rockets had been sent from Gaza into major population centres of Israel. Would you tolerate rockets flying into your homes, schools, offices, kindergartens?

      Your comment demonstrates perfectly the absolute sickness Ms. Phillips describes in the article. Did you even read the article?

      As for the 4 kids on the beach, I have a few questions for you. Would you allow YOUR children to go to a beach that has been the target of shelling for the past 10 days? Would you allow YOUR kids to play on a beach right next to a group of terrorists shelling a sovereign country? And finally, do you think Israelis have super sight or something, making them capable of identifying figures and distinguishing children when firing is coming from exactly the area where the children are playing.

      • readysf

        The facts are too fresh to be spun.

        Hamas had launched no rockets for the past 2 years. Israel had to provoke it by arresting a bunch of their people. And yes, they took the bait.

        Israel is increasingly the victimizer not the victim. Face it.

        • StanleyT

          AGain, bull. Rockets have been coming out of Gaza non-stop. And now Israel can’t arrest terrorists?
          What, pray tell, do you think they CAN do to protect their citizens? Nothing? You’re not fooling anyone with your hatred.

          • readysf

            False. Rockets have NOT been coming out of Gaza the past 2 years. They started coming recently because Israel deliberately provoked it by arresting many Hamas members. This gave the pretext it needed for this current slaughter of civilians.

            The goal is to abort Palestinian unity and undermine US efforts. The rest is fluff.

          • StanleyT

            bull and bull again. Rockets have never stopped coming out of Gaza. As for the Hamas members arrested, they were arrested for terrorism.
            So israel isn’t allowed to do anything? Ever?

        • Kneelander

          Idiot.

        • Jeff D

          If you’re so against the murder of Muslim people, why don’t you turn to a conflict with a death toll of approximately 120,000 people: The Syrian civil war going on right now?
          Oh no, it’s absolutely fine when Muslims kill other Muslims. No media coverage there.
          When Israelis kill Muslims, even when they’re locked in with their own oppressive terrorist leaders? That’s way worse. The accidental death of 1,000 odd Palestinian civilians in a war-zone is way worse than the 120,000 slaughtered, beheaded, stoned, hanged shot, exploded by other Muslims in the Syrian civil war.

          Idiot.

  • Paddy Xtolpho

    “Anti-Semite” is just a cheap insult to control the conversation. It
    means no more than someone who won’t lie down and take absolutely
    anything just because his opponent claims the Hebrew schizoid duality of
    victimization and supremacy. It’s the equivalent of trolling YouTube
    comments, and takes no more brains.

    Then queue the victimization! It’s easy to meet a publishing deadline that way.

    Here’s a shocking quote, enlightening to those who think only Islam is a “religion of peace”:

    “Goyim [non-Jews] were born only to serve us. Without that, they
    have no place in the world; only to serve the People of Israel… Why
    are gentiles needed? They will work, they will plow, they will reap. We
    will sit like an effendi and eat… With gentiles, it will be like any
    person: They need to die, but God will give them longevity. Why? Imagine
    that one’s donkey would die, they’d lose their money. This is his
    servant. That’s why he gets a long life, to work well for this Jew.”

    – Rabbi Ovadia Yosef, Late influential spiritual leader of the
    Shas party, which was a part of Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu’s
    coalition government from 2009-2012. (September 2010)

    ********************************************************************************************

    Islam is bad. Judaism is worse. They’re cut from the same cloth of
    believing that who you are is more important than what you do. And
    that’s the very place from where terrorism comes.

    • StanleyT

      “Islam is bad. Judaism is worse.”
      Excuse me? Assad has murdered close to 200,000 of his own people. ISIS is currently decapitating anyone they don’t like, seemingly at will.
      What is Israel doing? Fighting back against a relentless onslaught of rockets aimed at its civilians.

      You find one Jewish fanatic to quote. Tell me how many followers he has? I can find you hundreds of Islamic fanatics and number their followers in the millions.

      Your attempt to draw some sort of equivalence would be laughable if it wasn’t so misguidedly pathetic.

    • Damaris Tighe

      Whatever Ovadia Yosef said, his political party had good relations with Israeli Arab gentiles & supported the two state solution.

    • TNT

      Nope. False comparison.

      “Islamophobic” is the real shutter-down of debate today.

      Well, not for me, but there you go…

  • tolpuddle1

    How on earth does criticising Israeli government policies “de-legitimise” Israel ?

    And apart from the lunatic fringe, who in the West – even among bitter critics of Israeli policies – is advocating or working for (even indirectly) the destruction of Israel ?

    And how could they bring that about anyway, given that the USA is solidly in Israel’s camp – so solidly as to be sometimes counter-productively so, since when (as is quite often the case) the USA is a mere rubber-stamp for Israel (despite a torrent of American rhetoric to the contrary), that is not in Israel’s long-term interests, as intelligent Israeli and Jewish Diaspora commentators have pointed out.

    Melanie – don’t project your bigotry, daftness, blinkered hysteria onto anyone who disagrees with you.

    • StanleyT

      Criticizing Israel’s right to defend itself de-ligitimizes Israel. Expecting Israel to put up with thousands of rockets indiscriminately fired at its major population centres de-ligitimizes Israel.

      Calls for boycott, sanctions and disinvestment de-ligitimize Israel and work for the destruction of Israel. False accusations of “apartheid” de-legitimize Israel and work for its destruction.

      Holding Israel to a double standard de-ligitimizes it and works for its destruction. Evidence: those thousands of Israel-hating protestors in London today who haven’t said a word about Assad and his butchering of hundreds of thousands, or ISIS and its murder of thousands (so far).

      And if you don’t like Melanie’s observations, don’t read them. Accusing her of “projection” is simply ridiculous. One could say the same of your opinions. Don’t project THEM onto anyone who disagrees with YOU.

      • tolpuddle1

        My opinions on the Middle East aren’t bigoted, daft, blinkered or hysterical. Melanie’s opinions, on this issue, are. That’s where the difference lies, Stanley; I’m not one of the protestors who denounce Israel, who call for boycotts, sanctions etc, who criticise Israel’s defence and security concerns.

        To such people, Netanyahu is a godsend, their best recruiting officer, a kindler of their fire.

        It’s difficult to see how slaughtering Gaza civilians from air or sea (or from tank) can be called self-defence. It hasn’t worked in the past and whatever temporary lull is achieved, is more than outweighed by the immense political damage it does to Israel.

        Only fools believe that the Sword is the answer; “You can do anything with bayonets except sit on them” said Napoleon.

        There is only one way that Israel CAN defend itself – by doing a peace deal with the Palestinians, giving them a better deal. You’ll never bludgeon them into a peace deal (though many in Israel imagine that they can), so both sides will have to give ground. Both sides refraining from bombardment of civilians would be a useful first step towards this.

        But until then, the Israelis will have to continue to sit on their bayonets.

        • Damaris Tighe

          They were offered everything they wanted at Camp David during the Clinton administration. But this caused a problem for Arafat (presumably because it meant he would have to stop inciting against Israel) & to everyone’s surprise he rejected it. More than rejected it, he started the 2nd intifada in which hundreds of Israelis, many of them young children, were blown to smithereens on the streets of Israelis cities. It was then that Israelis became disillusioned. There’d been a huge peace movement until then.

          • tolpuddle1

            Arafat was a thorough all-round disaster, bloodstained and corrupt.

            But Land for Peace effectively died when the Israeli Hard Right gunned down Rabin.

          • Damaris Tighe

            No, it died with (1) the second intifada mentioned above & (2) the Gaza debacle when Israel withdrew & got war in return. Both experiences convinced many Israelis that there was no peace partner. If anything, Rabin’s death created sympathy for land for peace & antagonism towards the rightists who were perceived to have incited the assassination.

          • tolpuddle1

            The antagonism towards the Israeli Right proved – for whatever reasons – to be very fleeting.

            The murder of Yitzhak Rabin is on the heads of the Israeli Religious Right, who have since grown in influence and will inevitably, for demographic reasons, sooner or later become rulers in Israel.

        • StanleyT

          How can we offer “a better deal” than everything the Arabs say they want? They said they wanted Judea and Samaria and they were offered as much as 97% of it (93% at Camp David, 97% in Jerusalem in 2008). As for the remaining 3%, they have been offered land swaps in parts of Israel. They say they want Jerusalem as their capital and they were offered that too.
          Despite all this, they have said no. They claim this is because Israel refuses their “right of return”. And what is that “right of return”?

          It’s not the right to return to a Palestinian state. Did you know that there are refugees living in a refugee camp near Ramallah? There are other refugees living in refugee camps in parts of Judea and Samaria (which you would call the West Bank)? And did you know that these “refugees” WOULD NOT BECOME CITIZENS OF A PALESTINIAN STATE!!! No. Their mission in life is to “return to Israel”. This isn’t me saying this. Mahmoud Abbas says it.

          How on earth can a refugee have the right to return to another country? And that’s before we even discuss the whole question of why “Palestinian” refugees are different from any other refugee population in history or in the world today. Did you know that the “Palestinians”, alone of all refugees ever, claim this “right of return”? No German has ever claimed the right to return to the Sudentland after 1945. No Indian has claimed the right to return to Pakistan – or Pakistani to India.

          And no other refugee in history has ever claimed the right to pass on his refugee status to successive generations. How do you think a refugee population of anywhere between 400,000 and 800,000 (depending on whose numbers you believe) can today number around 5 million? How can somebody be a refugee when his grandparents were born in, say, Lebanon?

          On the subject of refugees in Lebanon, do you know that they are not allowed to live anywhere but in a refugee camp, not allowed to practice as doctors or lawyers or be teachers or join the police force, or vote in elections? Israeli Arabs do all of these things – and yet Israel is called “apartheid”?

          if you really are as open-minded as you claim to be, prove it by opening your mind.

          • tolpuddle1

            I’m not disputing your statements.

            I merely point out that – for whatever reasons, and whoever was to blame – Land for Peace has died and the disputed land has now pretty well been occupied by Israeli settlers – though looking at the ghastly western-style homes the settlers have built on every available hilltop, I would say they’ve destroyed Israel far more effectively than whole hordes of Moslem terrorists could ever have done.

            The refugee issue has remained alive, partly because cynical Arab leaders have ensured that, but mainly because the Palestinians want to return to their land and will continue to do so; it’s only in very recent years that Catholic Irish have truly accepted the loss of their lands to Protestant settlers in the 1620’s and 1650’s.

            Unlike the Sudeten Germans after Hitler’s escapades, or the Indians and Pakistanis after the mutual bloodbath of 1947, the Palestinians don’t feel or recognise any guilt or responsibility for the loss of Arab land to Israel in 1948 and 1967, but rather a bitter anger and sense of injustice.. As this isn’t going to change, Israel must work round it to put together some peace formula.

        • Augustus

          “You’ll never bludgeon them into a peace deal”

          And Hamas will never negotiate for peace and shared territory.

          • tolpuddle1

            Real hope of a peace deal acceptable to ordinary Palestinians, is the only hope that Hamas will lose popular support, the only hope of pulling the rug from under Hamas.

  • The world never sleeps

    Israel murdered Arafat. There will be a price the grim reaper will extract from Israel for its foolishness.

    • StanleyT

      Yes, Israel is also responsible for last week’s hurricane in South Carolina, the earthquake and tsunami in Japan, the melting of the polar ice caps, Barack Obama’s latest haircut and the fact that you cannot get laid.

      • Damaris Tighe

        You forgot the Malaysian airliner.

        • StanleyT

          🙂 Ooops.

    • travlr009

      sure , sparky……you’ve been so successful lo these past 66 years

      you and you’re buggery loving “fighters” are pathetic….its why you hide behind women and children

      lol

    • TNT

      The unwashed tea-towel killed him!

  • travlr009

    our liar-in-chief; the ultimate purveyor of ‘moral -equivalency” …..there is no ‘good or evil” and no objective good or bad in obama’s world.

    The only people he can find to be morally outraged against are republicans.

    We have seen this for 6 years re Israel, now you can even see it in Ukraine, as he calls for “restraint” from russia, the separatists , and UKRAINE “!

    Is he freaking serious?

    UKRAINE is the one invaded by russia and the separatists. THEY are the victims of an unjust war

    Just another day in the morally bankrupt world of barack hussein obama

    • Damaris Tighe

      Ukraine is an interesting example. An apartment block in the breakaway eastern region was bombed by the Ukranians a week or more ago – utter devastation, several people killed. It was only mentioned by the British press two days ago in the context of the downed airliner. If that hadn’t happened it wouldn’t have merited a line.

  • U Nderwater Glockenspiel

    Whoops I’ve reached my limit on articles read (even though this is the first article heading I’ve seen in years)

    • Phobos

      That’s funny, same here. I don’t know when the last Spectator article I’ve read was.

  • Abdullah

    How can any British person support a state (Israel) and a Prime Minister (Netanyahu) who celebrates terrorists killing British soldiers? http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/1524552/Israel-celebrates-Irgun-hotel-bombers.html

    ”In the midst of its campaign against Hizbollah and Hamas “terrorists”, Israel has been accused by Britain of feting Jewish “terrorists” whose bomb attack killed 28 Britons 60 years ago today”.

    • global city

      28….Hmmmmm, probably about how many Muslims ISIS have seen off in the time it has taken me to write this post.

      http://www.thecommentator.com/article/5091/new_islamic_caliphate_declares_jihad_on_muslims

    • Advocatus_Diaboli_69

      We fought (and won) two world wars against the Germans but we’re friends now.

      The Irgun telephoned the King David hotel and warned them of the attack. The British chose to ignore the warnings.

      The fact that the British government is a friend to Israel and many British people feel supportive of Israel is indicative of maturity as opposed to the endless feuding of others.

  • Abdullah

    ”Israel is waging this war in accordance with international law” Given the number of UN resolutions Israel has violated over the years this is comical

    • global city

      The politically corrupt UN is that?

  • readysf

    Hamas had fired no rockets for 2 years. Why did Israel provoke them, to restart restart? That’s the question to ask. The reason: they wanted to abort Palestinian unity.

    http://www.timesofisrael.com/hamas-fired-rockets-for-first-time-since-2012-israeli-officials-say/

    • StanleyT

      January 13

      Two rockets were launched to the Northern Negev desert, near Sderot. There were no injuries or damage reported.[8]

      January 16

      At 2am, five rockets were fired into Israel. The Iron Dome eliminated all rockets, as they would have hit Ashkelon. No injuries or damage were reported.[8]

      January 30

      A rocket exploded in a non-inhabited area of Sdot Negeb Regional Council. No injuries or damage were reported.[9]

      January 31

      From the Sinai Peninsula a rocket was launched towards Eilat. The Iron Dome intercepted the rocket. The radical Salafi organization Ansar Bait al-Maqdis took responsibility for the launch.[10]

      February[edit]

      In February, Palestinian Militants launched nine rockets at Israel in seven separate attacks.[7]This section is incomplete. (March 2014)

      February 6

      A Color Red siren alerting residents of a rocket launch from Gaza has been sounded in Ashkelon, followed by an explosion.[11]

      A further rocket launched from the Gaza Strip exploded in the Eshkol Regional Council. No injuries or damage were reported.[12]

      February 8

      A red alert siren sounded in Sha’ar Hanegev and Sdot Negev Regional Councils. A rocket hit an open area in Sha’ar HaNegev. No injuries or damages were reported.[13]

      February 10

      Palestinians fired a rocket into the Ashkelon Coast Regional Council, triggering sirens. After nightfall, a second rocket was launched into the same area. No injuries or damage were reported. Israel responded with an air strike on an underground rocket launcher in the central Gaza Strip.[14][15]

      February 14

      In the evening, Palestinian Militants launched two rockets into Israel. One landed in the Ashkelon Coast Regional Council, the other in the Eshkol Regional Council. No injuries or damage were reported.[16]

      March[edit]

      In March, Palestinians launched 65 rockets and mortar shell, in 23 attacks.[17]

      March 1

      In the night on Mount Hermon were heard loud blasts. The IDF checked the area and found the remains of two rockets near an IDF outpost. No injuries or damage were reported.[18]

      March 3

      Mosaab Zaaneen, a 25-year-old militant from Palestinian Islamic Jihad, was killed in an Israeli air strike as he was attempting to launch rockets from Beit Hanoun in the northern Gaza Strip. The Israel Defense Forces stated that the strike “was carried out in order to eliminate an imminent attack targeting civilian communities of southern Israel”.[19]

      March 5

      Palestinians fired a rocket towards the Sha’ar Hanegev Regional Council, triggering sirens in local communities. The projectile landed within the Gaza Strip. Later, after nightfall, a second rocket was fired at Sderot. No injuries or damage were reported in either attack.[20]

      March 11

      After nightfall, Palestinians fired a rocket into the Sha’ar Hanegev Regional Council. The projectile landed in an open area, causing no injuries or damage.[21]

      March 12–14

      Palestinian Islamic Jihad Militants fired at least 60 rockets at Israeli cities and towns, in the heaviest barrage since 2012. No direct injuries were reported, but a 57-year-old woman was lightly injured while taking cover in Sderot. At least eight rockets fell within communities, with one exploding near a gas station and another near a public library. Explosions rocked the cities of Sderot and Netivot, and sirens sounded as far away as Beersheba.[22][23]

      April[edit]This section is incomplete. (April 2014)

      In April, There were 19 rockets and 5 mortar shell in 14 attacks towards Israel. These attacks caused property damage, but no deaths or injuries. [24]

      April 1

      Residents heard massive detonations. Three rockets were fired at Eilat, which were intercepted by the Iron Dome.[25]

      April 3

      The “Code Red” siren was heard 3 times in a row in the evening. No rocket landing were identified, therefore the rockets came down within Gaza.[26]

      April 4

      In the Hof Ashkelon Regional Council a rocket exploded in the open area, close to the border fence. No injuries or damage were reported.[27]

      April 5

      Militants in Gaza fired a rocket into Israel. No injuries or damage were reported.[28]

      April 6

      In the Sha’ar HaNegev Regional Council, near a kibbuz, was heard an explosion of a mortar shell. No red alert siren sounded before. No one was hurt, no damage reported.[29]

      April 7

      A mortar shell launched from Syria landed in the border fence area in the center of the Golan Heights. There were no reports of casualties or material damage. The mortar shell was not intended to hit Israel, but rather an unintended consequence from the Syrian Civil War. [3]

      April 9

      In the early afternoon a Color Red siren alerting residents of a rocket launch from Gaza has been sounded in Hof Ashkelon Regional Council. The rocket came down within the Gaza strip.[30] Later in the evening a mortar rocket hit a kibbutz in the Sha’ar Hanegev Regional Council. It caused material damage, but no one was injured. No Red Siren sounded prior to the rockets landing.[31]

      April 13

      Very early in the morning a mortar shell exploded close to the security fence in the open field, prior to a “red alert”.[32] In the late night two more mortars were launched targeting Israeli soldiers, operating at the security fence in the Southern Gaza area. No one got injured.[33]

      April 16

      In the night, Militants launched several rockets at Southern Israel. No injuries or damage were reported.[34]

      April 21

      Militants in Gaza fired seven rockets into Israel during the last day of the Passover holiday. The first three projectiles struck uninhabited areas in the Sha’ar Hanegev Regional Council, activating “Code Red” sirens. No damage was reported in the attack. Another two rockets caused light damage in Sderot. Israel responded by striking three terrorist targets in the Gaza Strip.[35]

      April 23

      3 rockets were fired from Gaza at the Hof Ashkelon and Sha’ar HaNegev Regional Councils, after rocket alert sirens sounded. No injuries were reported.[36]

      April 24

      A mortar shell exploded near the fence in Southern Gaza.[37] Later in the day explosive device exploded near IDF force at the Northern Gaza border.[38] No injuries or damage were reported

      May[edit]

      Throughout May 4 rockets and 3 mortar shells were launched from Gaza in 5 attacks towards Israel.[39]

      May 1

      A rocket hit an open area in Eshkol. No one war hurt, no damage was reported.[40]

      May 21

      Lots of mortar shells were fired at IDF forces on the Gaza boarder. No injuries, damages in attack.[41]

      May 23

      A rocket exploded in open field in Sha’ar HaNegev Regional Council. No reports of damages or injuries.[42]

      May 31

      In the Golan heights’ area sirens were heard in several towns followed by explosions. It was assumed, that these rockets were not targeted to Israel but a result of the Syrian Civil War.[4]

      June[edit]

      Burning factory in Sderot, which was hit by a rocket from Gaza on June 28

      Throughout June about 53 rockets and a mortar shell were launched from Gaza in about 17 attacks towards Israel. These attacks caused property damage, but no deaths or injuries.

      June 1

      A rocket was fired early Sunday morning at the Eshkol region. The rocket landed in a field and no casualties were reported. [43]

      June 11

      A rocket fired from Gaza narrowly missed a main artery in southern Israel as it landed in a nearby dirt field without causing any injuries.[44]

      June 14

      2 of 3 rockets fired from Gaza fell in the Hof Ashkelon regional council in the afternoon. No injuries or damage were reported.[45]

      June 15

      In Ashkelon a series of explosions were heard in the evening. 4 rockets were fired from Gaza, 2 of them were intercepted by the Iron Dome. Fragments of the rockets fell across the city. There were no reports of injuries or material damages.[46]

      June 16

      A rocket from Gaza landed in an open area in the Ashkelon area. No damage or injuries.[47]

      June 18

      2 rockets fired from Gaza hit into a Sha’ar Hanegev Regional Council community and caused light damage to a structure.[48]

      June 19

      In the evening a rocket was fired from Gaza. It struck an open field near Sderot.[49] Later again a rocket was fired at the city of Ashkelon. It was successfully intercepted by Iron Dome.[50]

      June 20

      A Color Red siren alerting residents of a rocket launch from Gaza has been sounded in the Hof Ashkelon area, but the rocket didn’t make it outside of the Gaza strip.[51]

      June 21

      Gaza Militants fired a rocket into direction of Hof Ashkelon Regional Council in southern Israel. No injuries, but damage caused to a road in Hof Ashkelon. In the evening three rockets were fired at the Sdot Negev and Sha’ar HaNegev Regional Councils. All rockets exploded in the open area. No damages or injuries were reported.[52]

      June 24

      In the early evening Gaza Militants fired several rockets into Southern Israel. Two of the rockets were intercepted by the Iron Dome Missile Defense System, as the rockets would have hit inhabited areas. Targets have been Ashkelon and Sha’ar Hanegev Regional Council.[53] Again a rocket landed in the South, in the Sdot Negev Regional Council. There were light damage, but no injuries were reported.[54]

      June 27

      In the morning a mortar shell exploded near the border fence between Gaza and Israel. No one was hurt. A military vehicle operating in the area was lightly damaged.[55] In the evening 6 rockets were launched from the Gaza strip. Sirens were heard in many areas to warn for incoming fire. 4 rockets fell in the open field. 2 were intercepted by the Iron Dome anti-missile system, as these rockets would have landed in populated areas of Ashekelon.[56]

      June 28

      In the evening several rockets were fired from the Gaza strip. 2 rockets struck an industrial factory in Sderot, causing a fire. No one was hurt from any of the rockets, but the factory was burned to the ground. All other rockets exploded in the open area in Sdot Negev.[57]

      June 29

      4 rockets were fired from Gaza into the South of Israel in the evening. 2 were intercepted by the Iron Dome. 2 fell in open area near the border fence. Simultaneously a Palestinian opened fire at soldiers near the security fence.[58]

      June 30

      All night the “Code Red” siren was heard. 16 rockets were launched from Gaza in the early morning hours. Most of the rockets landed in open areas of the Eshkol Regional Council region. Some went down in the Sedot Negev Regional Council community. One rocket caused light damage to a home. No people were thought to have been hurt.[59]

      • readysf

        Don’t waste your time, here is the news report from Times of Israel. And remember, they are UNDER SIEGE which is an act of war by Israel, so why shouldn’t they fight back?

        http://www.timesofisrael.com/hamas-fired-rockets-for-first-time-since-2012-israeli-officials-say/

        • StanleyT

          Repetition doesn’t change the facts.
          And why are they UNDER SIEGE??? Because of the rockets, you twit.

          Here’s a challenge for you. Prove to me that just one of the rockets I’ve listed above did NOT get fired into Israel. Go on, prove it!

  • Roger Hudson

    Anti-semitism , like islamophobia or homophobia, is a word used by lazy writers as a crude smear.
    The complexities of the region are worth more than glib insults.

  • readysf

    Here is the evil being wrought by Israel, with your tax dollars: this, from an Israeli source….we are not allowed to discuss this is the US.
    http://www.btselem.org/

    • StanleyT

      btselem has absolutely no credibility whatsoever. It has an agenda to demonize Israel, even though it’s Israeli. It takes “Palestinian” testimony as gospel truth, without ever asking for evidence.

      In other words, it’s just like you. Believing any claim against Israel and completely ignoring all real evidence in Israel’s favour.

      • readysf

        nonsense! hasbara has stopped working. go home.

        • StanleyT

          That’s the best you can do? You cannot refute a single rocket in my list. You cannot argue that btselem is impartial. You cannot argue for any of your anti-Israel Jew-hating rants, so you tell me to go home?

          You’re pathetic.

  • virgile

    Yes, Israel must suffer and pay for the murder or innocents. It has no excuses and the holocaust,perpetrated by the West and not the Arabs, was 70 years ago.

    • StanleyT

      Oh for heaven’s sake. this is the best you can do? All you have demonstrated is complete ignorance of the actual real, verifiable facts of the situation.

      • virgile

        Enough is enough of the Zionist propaganda where Israel is the ‘victim’. Yes, Jews were the victims of Europe’s antisemitism but Israel is rogue and criminal state.

    • Bluhorizons

      You see, a “prison” is a place to hold people in. In this case the barrier is designed to keep terrorists out. It is a sort of reverse prison, where the warders are also the prisoners.

      The terrorists want to come in and fires rockets demanding entry. So, in-effect, Hamas is fighting the prisoners to gain access to the prison.

    • mohdanga

      Yet none of the surrounding Arab countries allow the ‘Palestinians’ to migrate there. How’s that border crossing with Egypt working out? Oh yeah, closed by the Egyptians…but that must be Israel’s fault as well.

      • virgile

        How can they migrate to other Arab countries? their seaports and all they borders are controlled by Israel, except the Egyptian border. Gaza is in total blockade, its inhabitants are prisoners on their own land. Haven’t they the right to obtain their freedom of movements by any means?

        • mohdanga

          Then how did hundreds of thousands of Palestinians come to be living in western Europe, the UK, Canada, the US, Australia??
          So now Israel has the power to control the Egyptian border with Gaza? Please!!

          • virgile

            Egypt has to abide to a formal agreement with Israel that prevent certain goods, materials as well as people to cross into Gaza. That included also medecines and basic necessity items. The Egyptian border is in fact indirectly controlled by Israel

            People from Gaza or the West Bank who have been able to emigrate through Egypt or Jordan are the ones who had the financial means and who had families already in the West to warrant them. Most Palestinians in Gaza are very poor and they have no place to go. Except for Syria and Lebanon who host more than 1 millions poor Palestinians refugees , the rich Gulf country, proud allies to the West refuse to receive Palestinians refugees as they now refuse Syrian refugees.

            Since 1945, Palestinians have lived without a free country of their own. No wonder they have become defiant in front of death. They have nothing to loose.

  • AndyPlatt

    Classic Phillips, preposterous denial of reality mixed with bigotry from start to finish.

    • StanleyT

      Okay. Now let’s see some actual debate. Tell us where she’s denying reality. Give examples of bigotry. Prove your claims, if you can.

      • TNT

        He can’t. Israel bad; ‘Palestinian’ good. Monkey hear, monkey say.

      • AndyPlatt

        “Israel has been bombing Gaza solely to stop Hamas and its associates from trying to kill Israeli citizens.”

        Rubbish. No Israeli citizens have been killed by rockets in years. Iron Dome is an adequate protection.

        “No concern for the elderly or dis-abled Israelis who can’t get to a
        shelter, the hospital patients left helpless while the rockets slam into
        the ground nearby.”

        Nonsense, and see above. The only people targeting hospitals is the IDF targeting Palestinian ones.

        “…tiny Israel…”

        That’s Israel, a nuclear power and the 4th largest military power in the world.

        “Killing Gazans is bad, warning them to flee so they won’t be killed is bad…”

        Note Phillips casual rejection of any concern at hundreds of Palestinian deaths, here and elsewhere. Also, where are Gazan’s supposed to flee to? Israel blockades Gaza 100%. One of Hamas’ few demands is to open more crossings to allow vital supplies to be brought in.

        “…for the infernal purpose of using its population as human shields and human sacrifices.”

        Gaza has a population of 1.7million, packed into an area that would fit into the M25. It is physically impossible for any weapons present in Gaza NOT to be close to civilians.

        “It is also allowing food and fuel into Gaza; its offer of blood supplies was turned down by the Palestinian Authority.”

        Israel has a deliberate policy of keeping the Gazan economy on the brink of collapse

        http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/wikileaks-israel-aimed-to-keep-gaza-economy-on-brink-of-collapse-1.335354

        Israel has calculated how much food Gazans need and deliberately allows around have that into Gaza

        http://electronicintifada.net/content/israels-starvation-diet-gaza/11810

        If the claim about blood supplies is true, and it sounds proper dubious to me, the Palestinian Authority isn’t in control of Gaza, Hamas is.

        “…brainwashes its children that glory lies in killing Jews.”

        Hmmm

        http://mondoweiss.net/2014/07/terrifying-tweets-israeli.html

        “It is a war to destroy the Jewish national homeland by people driven into frenzy by forces immune to reason.”

        Er what? What Jewish National homeland? Modern Israel was created by the UN with borders that were very different to those that Israel is claiming now. 700,000 Palestinians were forced off their land by the Israelis and laws were passed that prevented them ever returning. Israel stole their land, expanded its borders in breach of UN resolutions yet now claims credit for allowing in lots of immigrants, all of whom happen to be Jewish. What about the Palestinians’ homeland?

        As you can see Phillips has absolutely no regard for Palestinian deaths and seems totally reliant on a Biblical concept of Israeli/Jewish destiny which has no place in the modern world. She is less psychotic, as she accuses Palestinian supporters of being, than psychopathic.

        Do read more in this article

        http://ceasefiremagazine.co.uk/israels-attack-gaza-culmination-66-years-settler-colonialism/

        Before dismissing it as ‘lefty’, note that its claims are referenced, including the UN special rapporteur’s statement Israel’s policies in the West Bank and Gaza bore “unacceptable characteristics of colonialism, apartheid and ethnic cleansing.”

  • Gentleman Jim Crow

    I don’t like Israelis or Palestinians.

    • GraveDave

      I wonder how many ‘pro Palestinians’ here would take one home.

  • sasboy

    Melanie Philips likes nothing more than to whine about British Muslims rejecting the societies they live in. But reading her drivel, it seems SHE is the one who openly despises the West while directing her vitriol both at the Palestinian victims of Israel’s latest show of wanton barbarism and her fellow Brits who sympathize with them.

  • Chris Duffy

    First call the rest of us Jew haters and then scold us for why we don’t care. You answered your own question.

  • Truthhurty

    Considering all its propaganda power at its fingertips Israel has seen its support slip away with every dead Gazan, while the supporters of Israel become more and more desperate, the more the evil inflicted by the nation of Israel becomes apparent.

    • anton

      All the comments I have see mention the fact that the IDF is killing civilians and never a word about the thousands of rockets fired into Isreal. Were these rockets aimed at the IDF? No the were aimed at civilians. Only superior technology that saved the civilians. If there was no iron dome thousands of dead. Hamas is more of a killer of children then Israell ever was.

    • mightymark

      Maybe they just think the defence of their people is the priority – “propoganda” can wait. I hope my government would do the same to defend me my family and friends.

  • ScreamingLordCashpoint

    jem summers….. someone must really hate you at disqus

  • BensTallitShop

    Ms. Phillips, it seems to me the world is being tested on its moral clarity. The test is actually a cinch, and requires only minimal study. A test that anyone can pass, but sadly many are failing.

    Just a quick note to add. You asked, “Doesn’t the Israel-atrocity brigade ever pause to wonder why Hamas has provided no air-raid shelters for its people…?” In the last day or two we got our answer: Those tunnels the IDF is finding and destroying required an enormous amount of concrete to construct, yet Gaza has been facing an acute concrete shortage for years, which actually drove up unemployment rates as it hindered construction. A classic case of Hamas priorities.

  • Pat Conway

    The brief humanitarian truce in Gaza ends so now the muder of civilians can continue.

    • LouAdams

      darn those hamas missile launchers, why do they keep initiating the violence.
      By the way, over 80% of the gazastan causalities are males of military age.

      • Pat Conway

        No, the majority are women and children.

  • Dilyana Ivanova

    While IDF murdering innocent civilians the world is watching in silence

    • FrankS2

      Short but wrong on both counts.

    • mohdanga

      Self defence is now murder. Got it.

    • LouAdams

      you mean the guys holding a gun in one hand and a baby in the other running at the Israel forces, sure I understand how you would want to support those guys.

  • mandelson

    I don’t think many of those who protest that they are only opposed to Israel and not the Jooz would pass a lie detector test. Same thing if you ask the average Guaridanista/Beeboid – do you think the state of Israel should exist?

    • mightymark

      It is interesting that if you (peg on nose) go to sites like the Guardian and challenge those who go on about “occupied land” asking exactly what land, and whether they don’t they mean all of Israel is occupied – you never, ever get a response. Truth is they are “Palestine free from river to sea” types – no Israel is what they believe in. More should be done to expose this.

  • Paul Shea

    If Israel were so confident that it obeys the laws of war it would sign up to the ICC

  • Pat Conway

    Israeli massacre of the innocents. Israel must be so proud of its child killers.

    • Commenting on the comments

      You must be so proud of your mischaracterization.

    • mohdanga

      How about the 3 kidnapped Jewish teenagers? Hamas should be so proud of its child killers.

    • LouAdams

      so all the terrorist attacks on school buses going back to the 1930s don’t make the Muslims child murderers?
      How about blowing up restaurants filled with women and children
      How about sneaking into a family home and murdering the entire family
      How about the Jerusalem massacres or the Hevron massacres or the Etzion massacres, who the hell are you posting here with so little knowledge and so much hate.

      • Pat Conway

        British forces murdered by Jews in Palestine:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British%E2%80%93Zionist_conflict
        USS Liberty attacked by Israeli war planes in 1967 resulting in the loss of 34 crewmen.
        The killing of UN peacekeepers and UN observers by the IDF.
        The massacre of civilians in Lebanon and Gaza.
        The land grabbing by the state of Israel.
        Jewish settlers stealing homes and land in the West Bank.
        The murder of Rachel Corrie by the IDF.
        The failure by Israel to observe UN resolutions and international law.

  • tolpuddle1

    To understand the Israel-Palestine dispute, we must first of all reduce it to its bare essentials, forgetting ethnicity, politics and religion, even history.

    Thus: Two men quarrel over a piece of land, to which each of them sincerely believes he has a right. It becomes impossible – for logistical and other reasons – for them to share it to any meaningful extent.

    In consequence, one of the men gains possession of the piece of land, the other loses it.

    The latter goes away sad and angry and muttering angry threats. The other man is left in possession, but is forced always to look nervously over his shoulder at the other man’s determination and anger.

    That is the “Middle East Problem.” People and politicians of goodwill – solve it. Please.

    • Advocatus_Diaboli_69

      Two men quarrel over a piece of land, – So we’re going to forget about the land sold to Jews by Arabs pre 1948?

      It becomes impossible – for logistical and other reasons – for them to share it to any meaningful extent. – How many Israeli Arabs are there? How many Bedouin?

    • mohdanga

      And the man in possession gives back land to the dispossessed man, even after being attacked continuously by the dispossessed man, who wants total possession for himself.

    • LouAdams

      Judge this in the same way borders have been accepted for centuries

  • Advocatus_Diaboli_69

    Bill Clinton summed it up in an interview with NDTV in which it’s reported that he said that Hamas wants to provoke Israel into military response and sacrifice Palestinian lives so that the world turns on Israel. Hamas must be encouraged by the recent Stop The War demo in London. Shame they (STW) couldn’t muster the same enthusiasm for a demo about the Syrian civil war (what’s the latest figure for children killed there?)

    Hamas have proved themselves to be adept at tunnel building but they haven’t built a single air raid shelter. Instead, the encourage or force the civilians the claim to represent to stand in the line of fire and to become martyrs to the cause.

    The Palestinian people have been betrayed, ripped off, and used as pawns by both the Islamist groups in the region as well as the Arabs who are still miffed that Israel exists at all and who weren’t able to wipe it off the map in previous wars.

  • SickoftheHate

    It’s the moral equivalence which is so devastating. When Denmark this week proposed its ceasefire in the Warsaw Ghetto, a BBC presenter asked whether both sides would now conclude that there was no point carrying on with the war. From the start, restraint has been urged on both sides — as if more than 1,100 grenades on German citizens in three weeks had the same weight as trying to stop this onslaught once and for all.

    Germany has been bombing the Warsaw Ghetto solely to stop the Resistance from trying to kill German citizens. But for many in the West, the driving necessity is not to stop the Jews but to stop the Reich.

    Moral equivalence morphs instantly into moral bankruptcy. People have looked at the casualty count — around 200 Jews killed at the time of writing, while only a handful of Nazis have been injured or killed — and decided that this proves the German Reich is a monstrous aggressor.

    No concern at all for the Germans who have only a few seconds to rush to a shelter when the sirens start to wail, car drivers flinging themselves to the ground at the side of the road. No concern for the elderly or dis-abled Germans who can’t get to a shelter, the hospital patients left helpless while the rockets slam into the ground nearby.

    Just imagine if the Scots, for example, had for years been firing at England volleys of rockets that were now putting 40-50 million people within range. Unimaginable? Of course it is. No country would tolerate it. But that’s the equivalent situation in which tiny Silesia has found itself. Yet it is simultaneously having to fight another war: against a West determined to demonise it with accusations of deliberate atrocities, lack of restraint or an attempt to conquer more land.

    To these people, whatever the Reich does to defend itself is bad. Killing Jews is bad, warning them to flee so they won’t be killed is bad, the Reich defence system is bad because, while Jews are being killed, Germans are not. Ah yes, that’s the real outrage, isn’t it? Not enough dead Nazis. How dare they defend themselves so effectively!

    And so the West does the Jews’ dirty work for it. The Jews cannot defeat the German Reich militarily. Its strategy is not just to kill Germans and demoralise the population, but also to de-legitimise the German Reich so that the West, too, will work for its destruction. Jewish grenades have failed in the first two objectives — but the third is a runaway success.

    In its hundreds of tunnels, the Resistance has built an underground infrastructure of industrialised terror the length of the Ghetto. As a Resistance spokesman blurted out, it has situated its arsenal among civilians, underneath schools and hospitals and synagogues, for the infernal purpose of using its population as human shields and human sacrifices. etc

  • Picquet

    You have the massed ranks of selectively-blind Guardian writers opposing you. Good luck.

  • Kenneth O’Keeffe

    Oh for fuck’s sake. Being critical of certain Israeli actions DOES NOT EQUATE PER SE to anti-semitism. Jesus! How hard can it be to understand the difference?!

    • pole

      Yeah, like for example one Jew is pushing button of Atomic bomb, we tell him to stop and we called Anti-semitic (seem like excuse for anything). People seem to have lost ability for critical thinking

      • mohdanga

        Yes, just look at your response for an example of ‘critical thinking’.

    • LouAdams

      for a lot of anti Semities it obviously is quite difficult

  • Sam Amer

    I always wondered why anyone could be anti-Semitic. Slowly, watching what Israel does systematically to the Palestinians, I became anti-Zionist. Watching the latest inhumanity of the Jews and their despicable attitude towards the Palestinians and other non-Jews, I am now an anti-Semite and proud of it. Further, I can now see why the Germans and other civilized people can hate the Jews. They have no empathy, no humanity, are selfish and only interested in money. Sam Amer

    • artful

      You’re just ignorant.

      • LouAdams