Features

Our boys in the Islamic state: Britain's export jihad

We've become the West's leading producer of 'foreign fighters'. Some day the chickens will come home to roost

23 August 2014

9:00 AM

23 August 2014

9:00 AM

It is the now familiar nightmare image. A kneeling prisoner, and behind him a black-hooded man speaking to camera. The standing man denounces the West and claims that his form of Islam is under attack. He then saws off the head of the hostage. Why did Wednesday morning’s video stand out? Because this time the captive was an American journalist — James Foley — and his murderer is speaking in an unmistakable London accent.

The revulsion with which this latest Islamist atrocity has been greeted is of course understandable. But it is also surprising. This is no one-off, certainly no anomaly. Rather it is the continuation of an entirely foreseeable trend. Britain has long been a global hub of terror export, so much so that senior US government officials have suggested the next attack on US soil is likely to come from UK citizens. All countries — from Australia to Scandinavia — now have a problem with Islamic extremists. But the world could be forgiven for suspecting that Britain has become the weak link in the international fight against jihadism. And they would be right. This is not even the first beheading of an American journalist to have been arranged by a British man from London.

In 2002, 27-year-old Omar Sheikh was in Pakistan. A north London-born graduate of a private school and the London School of Economics, he had gone to fight in the Balkans and Kashmir in the 1990s. In 1994 he was arrested and jailed for his involvement in the kidnapping of three Britons and an American in India. Released in 1999 in exchange for the passengers and crew of the hijacked Air India flight IC-814, he was subsequently connected to the bombing of an American cultural centre in Calcutta in January 2002 and that same month organised the kidnapping and beheading of the Wall Street Journal reporter Daniel Pearl.

Back then it was possible to dismiss Omar Sheikh as a one-off — a macabre fluke. His alma mater shrugged off concerns about the number of London-based students who had got involved in Islamic extremism or the radical preachers touring the country. The shrug became a little harder to maintain — though maintained it was — the next year when two British men — Asif Hanif, 21, from -Hounslow in west London and Omar Khan Sharif, 27 — carried out a suicide bombing in a bar on the waterfront in Tel Aviv. Omar Sharif had been a student of King’s College London, just across the road from LSE. That time the glory of killing three Israelis and wounding over 50 was claimed by the terrorist group Hamas.

As the list of British-born jihadists grew, their activities also got closer to home. On 7 July 2005, British-born Muslims carried out the first suicide bombings on British soil, with four more attempted a fortnight later. On Christmas Day 2009, the former head of the Islamic Society at University College London attempted to explode a bomb on a plane as it landed in Detroit. Last year, two converts decapitated Drummer Lee Rigby in broad daylight in south London. It is important to keep in mind that these are just the most high-profile cases. But the list of cases which were thwarted by good security work or sheer luck is astonishing. As well as the constant stream of convictions, at least one large-scale mass atrocity attempt on the lives of the British public was thwarted each year. As were smaller attempts. Everybody still remembers the killing of Lee Rigby, but how many people recall the case of Parviz Khan’s Birmingham terrorist cell? Khan was convicted in 2008 for a plot the previous year to kidnap and behead a British Muslim soldier on video.

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All the while, as the list of jihadists grew, so did the number of places where they could train. Perhaps as many as 4,000 people from Britain are thought to have gone to train or fight in Afghanistan. Estimates of the number of British citizens who have gone to fight in Syria and Iraq range from just over 500 to 1,500 (a figure from Khalid Mahmood, a Birmingham Labour MP). If the larger figure is correct, it would be significantly higher than the number of Muslims currently serving in Britain’s armed forces. Some of these jihadists have returned; some have been killed fighting. But it is now obvious that whether we like it or not, this is Britain’s problem.

Involvement in Syria spreads across Britain. As with other conflicts, a large proportion of the Brits going to fight in Syria appear to be — like the murderer of James Foley — from London. This is in line with other work, including a list of all terrorism convictions in the UK to date, which shows that almost half of Islamism-inspired terrorism offences and attacks on UK soil over the last decade were perpetrated by individuals living in London at the time of their arrest.

But involvement in the Syrian conflict has also spread to Birmingham and other places with large Muslim populations, as well as some places that will have surprised the wider public. In February of this year it transpired that the 41-year-old Abdul Waheed Majid from Crawley, West Sussex, had become a suicide bomber. On 6 February the non-Arabic-speaking Brit carried out a truck-bombing against a jail in Aleppo, Syria.

In May, the Instagram account of a British man believed to be from London shows other jihadist war crimes from Syria, including the killing of a prisoner believed to be a loyalist of President Bashar al-Assad. One of the people shooting bullets into their captive is identified as a British man who in another video berates British Muslims for not providing enough support to the jihad. ‘You know who you are,’ he says, ‘from the capital, the Midlands, up north, wherever you may be… it’s a disgrace, that brothers know where these wives are, where these families are, and yet you are buying your nephew or your child a PlayStation 4 or taking them out to Nando’s.’

The list goes on. A cell of young men from Cardiff. Others from Portsmouth. Earlier this month, Abdel-Majed Abdel Bary from west London appeared in a photo he himself posted on Twitter. He is pictured holding a severed head with the caption ‘chillin’ with my homie, or what’s left of him’. This is all part of the strange juncture that Syria has become for British jihadis — a meld of street cool, Islamic extremism and ultra-violence. Even the register in which these men communicate on social media is familiar. For instance Madhi Hassan, 19, from Portsmouth, sent out a media image of himself holding a jar of Nutella, to reassure Brits coming over that they would not lack all comforts.

Of course, one line of argument claims that if we just left all these places alone then none of this would come to us. But we left the Balkans alone and created one generation of jihadists. Then we didn’t leave Afghanistan and Iraq alone — and created another generation of jihadists. Now we have very much left Syria alone — and lo and behold, we seem to have created another jihadist generation. Damned if you do, damned if you don’t, apparently. Yet remarkably few people seem to realise that this isn’t really about us.

Nevertheless, it comes ever closer to home. In recent weeks the black flag of jihad as used by Isis has been flown openly in London — supporters of Isis have appeared on Oxford Street — and elsewhere. Just this week, the imam of a leading Welsh mosque resigned after a pro-Isis guest preacher was invited to speak at his mosque.

This battle is going on in households and mosques up and down this country. We fear joining up these dots. And we fear giving offence more than we fear the international opprobrium that is coming our way.

The country that brought liberty to much of the world is now exporting terrorism to large parts of it. Britain needs to look to itself, and address this problem, if there are not to be many more videos like this week’s.

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Show comments
  • Pavlov

    I think your last paragraph tells everyone how far from the truth you are sir.
    This country did not bring liberty to much of the world, in reality it brought nothing but rape, pillage, plundering of natural resources, and built a British Empire on the suffering and slavery of generations and millions of people throughout the world.
    Liberty was not on the menu at all but profit and power.
    To this day, foreign policy of the greatest powers on this planet is not based on Liberty, Justice or the rights of people, it is based on financial gain and the protection of corporate profits. And if you think or believe anything else then, you are as disillusioned as those brain washed idiots who go out and enlist to fight with extremist groups. These groups I presume are the same ones that behind the scenes are beeing supplied with arms and ammunition from the same countries and that you propose are have given Liberty to the world.
    Wake up man and open your eyes to the real world not the tabloid one.

    • Advocatus_Diaboli_69

      In a recent documentary about India many of those questioned pointed to the benefits that the British brought them and, on balance, thought that the British Raj was a good thing.

      I have no delusions about the motivations about the British Empire but I often find that criticism of it focuses on all the negatives without including all the positives – positives that the native people in various former colonies admit to, if anyone bothered to ask their opinion.

      I also find that criticism of the West is often narrow and blinkered in that it ignores the exploits of others. A classic example is the slave trade – the European countries take all the criticism while the Arab slave trade is ignored.

      • Pavlov

        OK
        So now we are relying on a TV documentary to argue the benefits of colonial rule in India? was this a CNN, FOX, or other western media production or a locally produced documentary by local Indians?

        Criticism of the west is not narrow minded and blinkered at all, it is not criticism it is just a statement of facts. It is a fact that the West has been arming ALL the ‘terror’ groups in the Middle East, it is also a fact that the west lied through their teeth, including Prime Minister Blair in order to stoke up public support for an invasion and destruction of Iraq. The West has bombed Iraq into the stone age, under the guise of freedom and democracy and liberty, what a joke. All the west wanted was the Oil, end of story, simple as that.

        More people die in Iraq on a monthly basis than did under the regime of Saddam. That is a fact, it is not criticism.

        Innocent children getting bombed to bits by the ‘civilised’ Israelis while playing football on a Gaza beach and no government in the West says or does anything? this is not criticism this is a fact, It would still be headline news today if a Hamas rocket had blown an Israeli or a Western child to pieces, my god we would never hear the end of it.

        And as for the exploits of others, it is irrelevant, but speaking of which, Russia managed to acquire Crimea without a single shot, or a single fatality, ‘wham bam thank you mam” all over in a couple of weeks. What a fantastic achievement…NO FATALITIES.
        In response the west is in uproar about the freedom and liberty of Crimeans and bla bla bla bla.

        If only the west could learn to understand other cultures, and to respect other opinions then maybe the world would not be so anti-western, why does the west not accept that the Iranian people, millions of them, carried out a revolution to topple the American shah puppet. Why does the west continue to view the Iranian people as the enemy, Cant the western governments understand that you have to respect the will of the people. And if the will of the people is to get rid of foreign influence then so be it.

        It is also a fact that we in the west live in our comfort zone surrounded by our techno’ creature comforts and gadgets that are paid for by the lives and repression and slavery of other people in this world. So I too am being a Hypocrite by subscribing to the western lifestyle, so we are all to blame in some degree or another.

        But then we come back to the original issue, all these problems in the world have nothing to do with liberty or freedom, its all do do with money, corporate profits and global power by a selected few.
        And that the selected few are the Americans, Brits, French and Germans. And if you look at the history of the world in the last 500 years you will see that every one of those countries has been at at the center of war.

        • Advocatus_Diaboli_69

          I merely used the documentary to illustrate the point that so much of the criticism of the West is by westerners who presume that they know what the people of former colonies think and feel. If you ask, you get answers. You say westerners don’t listen to the opinions of other people and when they do go to them and ask you assume it’s a biased documentary.

          The West doesn’t hate the Iranian people, but they do have strong views on their government, and given their human rights record and the way they arm Hamas and Hezbollah, are you surprised?

          The Israelis don’t hate the Palestinians, but they are angry with Hamas and will do what they need to do to defend themselves and their own children. Meanwhile, Hamas know full well that the human shield policy works (they’ve admitted to it on Arabic TV) and they’ll continue to exploit the sympathies of gullible westerners.

          Hamas have also threatened and intimidated any journalists from photographing or reporting the truth of what they see. Hamas have built a network of tunnels but not a single air raid shelter for a civilians, but they launch missiles from outside hospitals and store rockets in UNWRA schools.

          500 years? You need to go back further and look at the history of Islam, the Moors, the Arab invasions of southern Europe.

          • victor67

            ” The Israelis don’t hate the Palestinians”
            Perhaps, but since 1948 they want as much of their land as possible with as few of its inhabitants. Some would say that these are hateful actions.

          • Advocatus_Diaboli_69

            What was happening in the region prior to 1948? Arabs were happy enough to sell land to Jews, but many grew resentful at how Jewish immigrants were able to turn land previously deemed worthless into productive orchards and farms. The Jews learned how to defend themselves from Arab attacks and have been defending themselves ever since. It didn’t start in 1948.

          • Chris Ranmore

            Since Jewish immigrants were motivated by Zionism it was clear that the ultimate intention was a Jewish state. You can’t blame the Palestinians for resisting that. It’s what you would do in a similar situation unless you’re a coward.

          • Advocatus_Diaboli_69

            You use the word ‘resisting’ to imply that Jewish settlers simply pushed people aside, but the truth is that many settled on land that had been sold to them by Arabs, or on land that was empty or abandoned. They then had to defend themselves against attacks by Arabs who resented their presence and ultimate intentions of one single, small Jewish homeland in a world that has none.

        • Malcolm Stevas

          Next you’ll be saying we’re all guilty.

  • StoryHugh

    Obviously it is horrific that British citizens are taking part in Jihad. The revolting people who do this are beyond reason. And really scary. But Douglas, I think you really fail to understand the role of Israel / Palestine in in radicalising these people. They see Israel – not just as a Jewish state (pace all your accusations of anti semitism against anyone who criticises Israel) – but as a representative of the West, sponsored by us, created by us, and allied to us. And indeed of “Democracy”. And what they see is the boot of the West in the face of their brothers – indeed Palestinians are among the most civilised and moderate people in the region, and many of them are Christians to boot. This gives these crazy people who carry out Jihad feeling of justification, and mutes criticism of them by their own people. It’s your blind spot. I’m really sorry, but you just don’t get it.

    • Advocatus_Diaboli_69

      No, I think you’re the on who doesn’t get it. Boko Haram and countless other jihadists don’t bomb, rape, and butcher the kaffir because they feel sorry for the Palestinians. This is the argument of the apologist. This is the argument that says “If stay at home, keep our heads down and mind our business then maybe the bullies and brutes of the world won’t notice us. To bad about those in their path but it’s not our fight.”

      • noix

        Exactly so, the late Christopher Hitchens made the point about the blowing up of the UN envoy Viera in Iraq was because of his role in preventing the Islamic Indonesians taking over East Timor and commiting religious genocide on the Christians there.

    • Arthur Thistlewood

      But western values (liberty of the individual, free speech, democracy, equality of the sexes) are our values and we need to defend them and to oppose those who attack them. Why is it that socialists and liberals never seem able to work out who their real enemies are?

      • MikeF

        Because doing so would contradict their own propaganda and they simply cannot accept that they might be wrong – about anything.

    • edithgrove

      So, Hugh, what is your ‘civilised and moderate’ solution to the root cause of young British muslims finding justification in sawing off the heads of journalists or disembowelling soldiers on our streets? Would it involve genocide?

      • StoryHugh

        Nobody has the “solution” for this horrific problem, but a big part of the responsibility must lie firstly with the families and mosques that are mentioned in the article. There should be no feeling of support or apathy or ambiguity about Jihad in these quarters. I fear that there is. However, it is also important that the West is seen to live up to its ideals … and pictures of our allies and closest representatives in the Middle East bombing the Hell out of Schools and Hospitals and residential districts does make it a whole lot easier to radicalise British Muslims.

        • Sarka

          Is there any evidence that the young guys going off for a jihadi adventure holiday in Iraq/Syria are motivated by concern for Gaza? They were going off way before the latest Israel-Gaza conflict…ISIS is not promising them an immediate war with Israel – it’s promising them a role in creating an Islamic State/Caliphate, cleansed of Christians and others, in Iraq-Syria…
          Sure, the IP conflict is a big Muslim revivalist Grievance…but then there are so many others…Is Boko Haram fighting Israel, is Al-Shabbab fighting Israel? Is the Taliban (training grounds for jihad tourists mainly in AfPak or Yemen before this IS thing) fighting Israel? Did you know that Bin Ladin had almost nil interest in the IP conflict for the better part of his career (his grunge was with the Saudi regime…)?

          • StoryHugh

            I think I’ve already answered this pretty carefully, saying that there should be no feeling of support, apathy, or ambiguity for these people’s cause from their own community. And I’ve said that Gaza mutes criticism of them from that quarter. It generally inflames the muslim world. This is background, not direct motivation, but it is still important. It is also an injustice, plain and simple, that muddies the waters of right and wrong.

  • Arthur Thistlewood

    Can we expect a noisy Moslem demonstration against the atrocities being carried out by ISIS like the ones we have seen in recent weeks against the military actions in The Middle East? If not, why not?

    • English Majority

      Because the unspoken reality is that the majority of Muslims support ISIS to some degree.

      Especially the younger Muslims. The majority of them are privately strongly yearning and praying for ISIS to succeed.

      • Daniel C. Thompson

        I’m an atheist, and I have protested more against Israel than against IS.

        This is not because I support IS. It is because Israel is a widely recognized modern democracy (for some, anyway), an ally to the West in which I live, and presumably quite dependant upon goodwill from and trade with us. I therefore feel as if:

        a) This is “my side” committing these atrocities, which I cannot support.
        b) I might have some actual traction here (although I doubt it).

        Whereas with IS, I consider them to be utter nutters, who hate everything I stand for anyway, and will obviously not listen to, or be affected by what I have to say. I further recognize that they are a loosely structured terror organization with practically no international legitimacy. I expect quite a few moderate Muslims in the West feel similarly.

        • edithgrove

          Do you see any similarities between Hamas and Isis?

          • Daniel C. Thompson

            I know too little about Hamas. I know the groups employ similar tactics, although IS are immeasurably worse and more nihilistic.

            I also know that Hamas has a far more legitimate greivance than IS. There is quite a difference between wanting a Palestinian state and imposing by force a medieval Islamic Caliphate on people who never asked for it.

            BTW, can highly recommend this documentary about ISIS, which sheds light on the political and sectarian reasons for some Iraqis to support ISIS:

            http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b049fgfw

          • Damaris Tighe

            You should educate yourself on Hamas. Its Charter calls for the killing of Jews wherever they can be found (ie, not just in Israel). They were also responsible for several years of suicide bombings inside Israel – in pizzarias, on buses, outside night clubs. Most of the victims were children, adolescents & infants.

          • Daniel C. Thompson

            I know that. On the other hand, they have also taken part in actual negotiations with the Israelis. The Israelis have targeted their leaders (just killed three today). And the Israelis have done much the same to the Palestinians as what you mention Hamas doing. Anyway, I don’t support Hamas. I just think comparing them to ISIS is cheap and simplistic.

          • will91

            If Hamas had it’s way, every single one of it’s rockets launched toward Israel would be responsible for dozens of civilian deaths. Hamas would have achieved thousands of Israeli deaths over the last few years. It is only by chance and Israeli compassion and protection for it’s own people which has prevented this eventuality.

          • Daniel C. Thompson

            And I guess Hamas just fires those rockets because they are evil, don’t they? That is the explanation. Nice and simple. No need to wonder why they are pissed at Israel. Can’t possibly be connected to the occupation, the blockade, the settlements, the mass imprisonments and the bombings. No connection whatsoever. Nothing to see. Carry on.

          • will91

            Well they’ve outlined a clear genocidal intent toward Israel, that might be a contributing factor. You think?

          • Advocatus_Diaboli_69

            Daniel, the latest ceasefire was holding. Negotiations were under way in Cairo. Hamas broke the ceasefire by firing more rockets.

            The BBC reported that the ceasefire ‘broke down’. They didn’t dwell on the fact that it was Hamas rockets that broke it.

          • Damaris Tighe

            The way the media report such things is as if they’re a force of nature rather than the result of human action, specifically the action of Hamas.

          • artemis in france

            Did you know that about one third of Hamas rockets don’t even reach Israel? Instead they often kill their own people. But they don’t care because the media are prevented from saying this while in Gaza. Hamas strictly controls all broadcasts from its territory. Israel always gets blamed for every death in Gaza.

          • Damaris Tighe

            Israelis have NOT shattered a peaceful population’s restaurants, clubs & buses with homicide bombs. Moral equivalence & moral illiteracy – the bain of the modern west.

          • will91

            Peace loving Hamas at work here.

            Here’s a charming video of them throwing Fatah supporters off rooftops in 2009.

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vOWNNvhZ0e8

          • lookout

            Walid Shoebat.com Will.

          • Daniel C. Thompson

            “Look, Hamas do horrible things too!”

            Such argument. Much wow.

          • Damaris Tighe

            More moral equivalence. No wonder the west is up sh*t creek without a paddle.

          • Lamia

            I know too little about Hamas.

            Obviously. And yet you are preoccupied with criticising Israel, and trying to change the subject of this thread away from ISIS and towards the evil Israelis

        • English Majority

          Its a very odd way to look at things, though.

        • English Majority

          Anyway, Daniel, even though you’re obviously a Leftist fool, we appreciate your polite opinions.

          Look: Israel is our ally. Israel is a beneficial ally. Its also a TINY nation amongst hordes of Muslims.

          And ISIS isn’t just some “group of nutters”, its an Islamic army with HUGE racial, cultural and tacit support from Muslims in Western nations

          • Daniel C. Thompson

            1) Thank you.
            2) Israel is collaborating with Egypt in its war with the Palestinians. I know el-Sisi is not exactly Islamist, but Israel is hardly the underdog here. It is US-backed, has nukes, and has repeatedly thwarted any attempted land grabs by its neighbours. And I repeat: I’m not cool with what our ally is doing.
            3) It claims to be an Islamic army. It claims to have huge support. Don’t play into its narrative by accepting those claims unquestioningly. Most people try to reconcile religion with daily life. That includes Muslims. The warmongers on both sides are the people screwing things up.

          • English Majority

            Its good that Israel has nukes. Its good that an hardcore Jewish nation is amongst the Muslim-horde Middle East.

            Oh, and I forgot to add in my previous comment: ISIS, Islamic State also have huge racial, cultural and tacit support from the global Muslim population.

          • Daniel C. Thompson

            Why do you hate Muslims so much?

          • girondas2

            Why do you hates jews so much?

          • Daniel C. Thompson

            I have said no such thing, and I do not hate Jews. My grandfather fought the Nazi occupation, so please don’t give me that. I have nothing against Jews. I like a great many of them a lot. I have a lot against Israeli policy. Which is something else entirely.

            And my question to English Majority is entirely warranted, since he has made his loathing of Muslims very very clear in most of his comments.

          • girondas2

            “And my question to English Majority is entirely warranted, since he has
            made his loathing of Muslims very very clear in most of his comments.”

            No clearer than you have made your loathing of jews.
            Cut the sanctimony.

          • Donafugata

            Thank God that Israel does have the nuclear option.

            Considering Israel’s military and intelligence advantage, I think they show admirable restraint in trying to defend themselves.

            In the hands of Hamas the same weapons would have nuked Israel out of existence years ago.

          • artemis in france

            Israel is the size of Wales. How small does it have to be before it is considered an underdog in the Middle East by you?

        • Harry Goldstein

          Sorry Daniel, you are talking nonsense. Israel is fighting a war against precisely the same sort of jihadi murderers that we now see in action in Iraq. If Israel were as weak as Iraq, don’t you think we would be seeing precisely the same massacres of Israelis (Jews, Christians and yes Muslims) that we are now seeing in Iraq? Hamas and ISIS are two of a kind, and it doesn’t really matter to the rest of us which gang of jihadi thugs manages to get its leader made Caliph.

          • Daniel C. Thompson

            It is intellectually bankrupt to claim that the two things are the same.

            Israel is fighting a war against people it has deliberately and consistently marginalised and mistreated.

            And while we’re at it, do you know why ISIS has won (possibly crucial) support from some Sunnis? Because they have been utterly marginalised and mistreated by the Shia majority under al-Maliki.

            Yes, they employ similar tactics, no their cause is not the same at all. Hamas is fighting for a Palestinian state. ISIS is imposing its twisted will on people who never asked for it.

          • Advocatus_Diaboli_69

            Israel is fighting a war against people it has deliberately and consistently marginalised and mistreated.

            No it isn’t. Israel is defending itself from attack by an Islamist organisation. It is not at war with the Palestinians, nor is it at war with its Arab neighbours (despite the fact that they’ve tried to destroy this tiny country on numerous occasions).

            The suffering of the Palestinians is largely due to the way they are exploited by those who should be looking after them, while the Arabs around the region ignore them or use them as pawns.

          • Daniel C. Thompson

            Israel is OCCUPYING Palestinian lands. It arbitrarily arrests thousands of Palestinians. It bombs a civilian population in Gaza, with no escape route to smithereens. Of course it is at war.

            Yes, it is “defending” itself against rockets. But it has created the grievances that those rockets represent itself.

          • Advocatus_Diaboli_69

            It’s been estimated that Hamas have used over 800,000 tons of concrete, steel, and other materials to create their tunnel network and they didn’t include one single air raid shelter for the civilians. Odd that, don’t you think?

            Hamas spokesmen have been interviewed on Arabic TV gleefully extolling the human shield policy and rejoicing the anti Israeli sentiments being generated in Europe and the US.
            They love it when westerners swallow the propaganda and then get out on the streets to demonstrate their loathing of Israel and to show solidarity with the Gazaans. They cannot defeat Israel militarily but they can turn people against Israel in the west and you’re proof that they’re succeeding.

          • Daniel C. Thompson

            Hamas didn’t turn me against Israeli policy. I have not watched any of the broadcasts you mention, and I quickly left the demonstration I had joined when I realised it was rather pro-Hamas.

            What turned me against Israeli policy was Israeli policy itself. And a very basic ideal of “practise what you preach”. Or “lead by example”. Or whatever you want to call it. How can you condemn Hamas for killing civilians if you endorse Israel’s killing of civilians? You can’t. And they’ll laugh you in the face. That is why I am critical of Israeli policy. Because we need the moral high ground if we’re going to make peace. And Israel has thrown it away.

          • Damaris Tighe

            How ‘high’ does the ‘moral ground’ have to be before you’ll like Israel: self-destruction?

          • Gwangi

            1) Hammas are the fascists of now – their manifesto, if translated into German, would be almost a carbon copy of the National Socialists manifesto of 1936. You remind me so much of all those apologists for East German oppression back in the 80s.
            2) No such place as Palestine as a country. BUT it is true that Jews lived throughout the middle east for centuries – though now the Muslim bandits who run all Muslim countries have more or less expelled them and all Christians too. So Israel MUST exist because of Muslim intolerance. Moreover, why do Muslim countries refuse to take refugees from Gaza? Anyone would think they were deliberately making their own Muslims suffer to use that as a stick to beat Israel? Plus, most dead in Gaza were killed by Hammas terrorists who have deliberately fired rockets at civilians in Israel from civilian areas, schools, people’s homes etc. The blood is on their hands, not Israel’s.
            3) Israel is a democracy with a free press and about 10% Arab population – and Arabs have even become high court judges there. Moreover, women have equal rights, and atheists, gay people and those of all religions and none can live there in peace. Compare please to the Islamofascist states which surround Israel,

          • Daniel C. Thompson

            1) None of that excuses the bombing of all those civilians.
            2) Get your history straight. Israel was founded in the wake of WWII where EUROPEANS butchered Jews by the millions. How convenient that we gave them a state down there, rather than, say, in Europe. Your argument about where the rockets were fired from is absurd, and was demolished by none other than Russell Brand. If someone fires a rocket from a school full of children, that does not excuse bombing that entire school out with the children still inside it, and then blaming it on the person who fired the rocket. Horrible attempt at justifying war crimes.
            3) Free press? You do know that Israelis criticising the current policy have been attacked in the streets while the police did nothing? And bravo, they manage to treat Arabs like human beings in Israel (or so you claim, anyway). That does not make it okay to treat them like animals in the occupied territories.

            And finally NO, I will not compare with the Islamic states surrounding Israel. Don’t you get it? This is not a race to the bottom. This is a case of “we should be better than this”. We are better than this. Surely?

          • lookout

            Why do the left find it so hard to support the only democratic state in the middle east ?

          • Daniel C. Thompson

            Because of its actions.

          • lookout

            Because the left are anti Israel, it wasn’t always so, but is now, the next step is full on anti semitism. Nice to know which end of the bayonet you will be on

          • Lamia

            Because of its Jewish population.

          • lookout

            It’s all Israeli land, do your history, the Balfour Declaration, all disputed land was bought from the Arabs by Rothschild and others, they paid over the odds, I went to a speech several years ago by a brilliant lawyer, he had spent 10 years going through all the land deals and legal papers from Israel and the UN, his conclusion was all the land is Israel’s, so complete was his analysis that the Israeli government got wind of it and asked him to brief the the Israeli equivalent of our home office. By the way, he isn’t Jewish.

          • Daniel C. Thompson

            I’m sure the people who were violently expelled from those lands would disagree. Oh, and you forgot the occupied lands and the illegal settlements.

          • lookout

            They left as instructed by the invading Arab armies, any one who stayed would be viewed as a Israeli collaborator and murdered, the Israelis begged them to stay, they didn’t. No one bothered about the Jews who were kicked out of the homes and businesses in Arab lands, no compensation, not even an apology.

          • lookout

            It doesn’t matter how intellectual you are when a blade is at your throat, the Palestinians were offered a state on multiple occasions, they rejected it, any Palastinian that signs a deal with the Israelis is killed. Arafat said ” Jordan is Palestine” couldn’t agree more, but when they moved in and tried to take over, Hussein butchered them,he killed more Palestinians in a couple of weeks than the Israelis have ever done, black September was born, another bunch of nuts and guess what, the world blamed Israel. History and truth.

          • Daniel C. Thompson

            I’d say that is exactly when it matters most.

            Both sides have sabotaged attempts at peace. And both sides have rejected offers they didn’t consider reasonable.

            I don’t see how other Arab countries’ ghastly treatment of the Palestinians makes Israel’s actions okay.

          • lookout

            The point is if they can’t get on with their own they will never share a state with Israel and once in positions of power they will treat the indigenous as cattle even in the UK. A Muslims duty is to back Islam, once a Islamic candidate is in they are bound by their laws to continue to vote for them, bye bye democracy, it’s happening here and you don’t seem to want to see it. As I ask a lot on this thread what’s your solution?

          • will91

            Hamas is ‘anchored’ all right.

            No re-election, slaughtering political opponents e.t.c

          • Harry Goldstein

            I’m sorry Daniel, Hamas are most definitely not fighting for a Palestinian state. They may choose to make noises about this in English, the better to confuse well-meaning westerners, but the reality is that they regard Palestinian nationalism as a form of idolatry. Their objectives are to establish an Islamic state – not the same thing – and to eliminate the Jews. Their charter, which I urge you to read, looks forward to a day of judgement when all the Jews will be slaughtered. Do you think the Christians and others would be far behind? They have also not been slow to murder and torture other Palestinians (e.g. Fatah people) who do not share their ideology. They may be better at PR than ISIS, but they are genocidal jihadis just as much as ISIS are.

          • Sarka

            Yes there is plenty of evidence that ISIS is quite popular with Sunni Arabs in the area of Iraq concerned. Fleeing Yazidis and Christians have reported how Sunni Arab neighbours joined with ISIS fighters in seizing their property and driving them out…Also, Al-Baghdadi – the caliph – is very much an Iraqi. So the original ISIL was an Al-Qaida offshot but drawing intitial strength from Iraqi/Syrian Islamists, then reinforced by foreigners but also – paradoxically – angry Iraqi Baathists..

            While there are differences between Hamas and ISIS, the distinction is not as clear as you suggest (ISIS are hardly like Martians in the region – the dispute with Al-Qaida is that with current leadership it is more focused on Egypt and Saudi, not Iraq/Syria.)
            Also, I was yesterday rather surprised and intrigued to read very detailed research on the development of Iraqi public opinion that suggested that though Maliki has indeed alienated Sunnis, this has made much less impact on opinion than you might think…Sunni resentment and rivalry with the Shia was already so strong that even had Maliki been cleverer, it might not have affected the outcome…Despite definite differences, ISIS is not without local anchorage and – of course — Hamas’s expressed ideology is not strikingly different from that of ISIS – that it is fighting for a Palestinian state is strictly your interpretation – which is arguable in terms of pragmatics, but not what Hamas actually says.

          • Lamia

            Hamas is fighting for a Palestinian state.

            Hamas’ own charter calls for the killing of every single Jew in the world, you dreary little antisemite.

        • Lamia

          I have protested more against Israel than against IS.

          Surprise, surprise…

    • Damaris Tighe

      No.

    • thomasaikenhead

      Arthur,

      Perhaps because the number of dead, wounded and refugees created by ISIS is dwarfed by those caused by recent Western invasions and military activities in Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria and Libya?

      A sense of proportion is often useful when trying to understand and analysis these events.

  • English Majority

    Stop calling them ‘British Fighters’.

    Do you have ANY idea how sickening, twisted and soul-destroying it is for people to keep seeing these sneering foreign Muslims described this way?!

    They’re Muslim immigrants. ALL Muslims in England and Britain are foreign immigrants.

    Islam and Muslims are totally foreign to our ancient White nations.

    • Pavlov

      ‘our ancient white nation’
      got to laugh,
      spored by Romans and Vikings.
      and more recently by the Germanic tribe.
      I think the Queen has a German bloodline and the duke a Greek Bloodline.
      So what does that make your future king, half german and half greek?
      Hardly an ancient white nation, more of a bastardized mixture of anything but English.
      Actually, you could be politically correct and say a diaspora of influence and keep everybody happy!

      • English Majority

        How, exactly, does that refute my factual statement of ‘ancient White nation’?

      • Advocatus_Diaboli_69

        The Celtic, Roman, Saxon, Jute, Angle, Norse, or Norman genes within the blood of Britains has morphed into what we are today.

        It’s been over a thousand years since the Normans arrived and they were our cousins anyway.

        We have a cultural identity that is rich and varied, and which is admired (and hated) all over the world.

      • MrLouKnee

        sorry but ive got to lmao @ u Pavlov

        “spored by Romans and Vikings and more recently by the Germanic tribe”

        that used to be the theory. However DNA analaysis how disproved this as total and utter nonsense, however it is still spouted by the left as proof we are all immigrants. British genetics go back 12,000 years

        “2005 genetic analysis indicates that “it’s now more or less agreed that about 80 percent of Britons’ genes come from hunter-gatherers who came in immediately after the Ice Age,”

        http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2005/07/0719_050719_britishgene.html

        • Damaris Tighe

          I was going to make this point then saw you made it for me! Infuriates me when I hear the meme ‘nation of immigrants’ which is designed to silence those who object to recent mass immigration from third world countries.

    • Daniel C. Thompson

      Funny thing is, a lot of people in Syria and Iraq, where IS are wreaking havoc, consider them foreign too. And with good reason: They come from a variety of backgrounds, have grown up in the West or in other Gulf states, and have scant regard for the locals.

      Regarding the skin colour thing: Dividing the world up into states based on skin colour is an impoverishing idea. Many racists call for people of different skin colours to live in their own lands. But surely it is much more attractive to strive for a world in which everyone can live safely anywhere in the world, regardless of skin colour. That would be a much freer world.

      • English Majority

        Have you noticed what’s happening?

        Blacks STRONGLY identify as a racial bloc. They have countless black advocacy organisations (paid for by us, sadistically).

        Black Federation of Teachers; Black Police Officers Association; Black BBC Arm; Black Political Groups; Black community Groups and so forth. The Muslims have exactly the same.

        Now, we Whites are a global ethnic minority at only 8% of the population. YET, it is illegal for us to have ANY of the above groups or organisations.

        See a problem, hombre?

        • Daniel C. Thompson

          You seem to enjoy history, so I think you’ll agree there are significant historical (and ongoing) reasons for that. Namely colonialism, slavery, racists policy and institutional racism.

          If you flipped history, THEN it would be fine to have those organisations. But seriously: Look around you: White people still massively dominate Western society. They hold most positions of power. That is not to say there are not loads of poor white people. It’s just rather hard to blame skin colour for that.

          If history had been different, I would consider the organisations you named offensive. Presently, I do not.

          • English Majority

            Millions of White people died to stop Slavery. And, more Muslims and blacks had slaves than Whites did.

            And, not only have we allowed them to colonise our lands (with predictably destructive results), we’ve given Africa trillions of pounds over the decades.

            There’s even a family of them in power of America – a nation built and created by White people.

            Plus, you don’t seem to be aware of what they’ll do to Whites as soon as they have the power.

            Imagine Ferguson times by 10 million, and you’ll get a small idea.

          • Daniel C. Thompson

            Call me naïve, but I’m not afraid. Your scenario is not convincing to me.

            And what is Ferguson? Demonstrations, with some rioting and looting, in response to heavy-handed policing. It’s not like it’s black people trying to take over the world. It’s black people tired of being harassed by the police.

          • lookout

            They have the Isis flag at Ferguson.

          • Daniel C. Thompson

            Oh, wow. A flag. I’m so scared. I’m sure the majority of the protesters want to create an Islamic state in Ferguson, and the riots about police brutality are just a front. Makes total sense.

          • lookout

            You would change your view if it was whites with a nazi flag, or would you, after all, it’s just a flag.

          • Livia

            One of the Ferguson protesters arrested was a 90 year old female holocaust survivor. Your suggestion that the protesters are akin to Nazis is shameful.

          • English Majority

            The protestors are far, far worse than Nazis.

            They’re murderous black hordes who want to genocide White people.

          • Daniel C. Thompson

            Lol, sure, sure.

          • artemis in france

            What do you do all day? I’ve just realised that you must have been following this thread for several hours. So either you’re a disaffected youth with no friends or you are incredibly naïve and determined to convince yourself that there is nothing to fear out there. Or perhaps both?

          • http://writewaypro.net Ariella Brown (PhD)
          • lookout

            Read the post, you then might get the point, I hope

          • Gwangi

            Nail. On head! BOSH!

          • Sage Ham

            You wont be. Just like that poor van gogh who thought he could still have a conversation with his attacker

          • Sage Ham

            Big deal, Up to 1939, most jews in Germany were not afraid. This intellectual cowardice is not surprising

          • GenJackRipper

            Arabs conquered wast lands and took millions upon millions as slaves; yet they don’t seem to have any colonial guilt (and no-one is urging them to do).

            Funny how things work out…

          • Daniel C. Thompson

            Boo hoo. They did bad stuff too. That means we’re allowed.

            How old are you? Can you not take responsibility for your own actions? Is everything excusable, if only someone else is doing it too? Jeez.

          • Keith D

            They are genocidal maniacs still at work. Are we not entitled to defend against our own demise?

          • mohdanga

            We must all be 300 hundred years old in order to ‘take responsibility’ for slavery, imperialism, blah, blah, blah.
            How old are you? Your comments are illogical.

          • mohdanga

            “But seriously: Look around you: White people still massively dominate Western society. They hold most positions of power.”
            And why is this bad or unusual???? The West is populated by whites!! Would it make sense for China or India or Brazil to be dominated by whites??
            But we get it, white countries, making up 8% of the world’s population, should be ethnically cleansed while non-white countries remain non-white.

            “Namely colonialism, slavery, racists policy and institutional racism.” All of these were practiced by non-whites long before whites…where is your outrage over this?? Again, whites need to self flagellate, apologize, provide reparations and allow themselves to beome minorities in their own countries while non-whites never blink an eye over their historical treatment of others.

          • Baron

            Since you so well versed in history, you aware black people in American were slave owners, too, and it was on farms owned by black slavers the troubles began?

          • AJH1968

            let us not forget the East African slave trade, I hardly ever hear it mentioned, or even the Hindu genocide. A lonely prat like Mr Thompson never mentions either.

          • Donafugata

            While it is true that colonialism did exploit native populations and their natural resources, by the time of independence they were in a far better state than before.

            The infrastructure, communications, civil service, education, health care and everything that a functioning and prosperous democracy requires was in place. It is hardly the fault of the ex-colonist if the countries returned to poverty, sectarian and tribal strife.

            Greed and corruption didn’t need to be taught.

        • Donafugata

          No other country in the world has such a soft touch.
          Our strength has become our weakness and our fairness and generosity are regarded with contempt by a certain kind of immigrant.

          They know they can get away with murder.

          • English Majority

            And we’re even denied a level playing field to fight back.

            We can’t freely associate; we can’t clearly talk about the glaring problems; we can’t even NOTICE the problems without getting locked up for ‘Hate Crime’.

            Meanwhile, the enemies have full freedom. And state funding. And the entire legal system on their side.

            I support any and all resistance to it all.

            And I do mean ANY.

          • Jack Cowell

            The BNP has a very big membership, it meets regularly. You can talk about the problems that matter to you; you are doing it right now.

            Stop winging and looking to be the underdog you total baby.

        • Pootles

          Indeed. Try the Steadfast Trust – the only charity that I’m aware of that acts for the English: http://www.steadfasttrust.org.uk/wp/

      • English Majority

        Don’t you realise how important it is to protect the homeland?

        Do you know that, its because of our forefathers efforts and our racial traits that we’re (or were) so powerful and advanced?

        Now, you could do whatever you want. Shag about all day, take drugs, travel to foreign nations, whatever. BUT its the power of the nation state that provides the platform from which to leap from, and return. And so before all, you should have full solidarity with your own race and people.

        Its because the above things have all but been destroyed that we’re in the rancid position we’re in now. And the horror and pain is only just beginning.

        PS, Islamic State/ISIS is not a diverse group. It consists 100% of brown Muslim hordes.

        • Daniel C. Thompson

          Sorry to break it to you, but even though positions of power are still dominated by white people, power does not come from “racial purity” or national heritage or the like.

          If you look at it from a Darwinian perspective, power comes from succesful adaptation to the environment. As an aside, “racially pure” populations are singularly ill-suited for this form of adaptation.

          If you look at it from an intellectual perspective, knowledge is power. Again, getting all your knowledge from Mein Kampf and Stormfront is not the way to go if you want to make it.

          If you look at it from a capitalist perspective, money is power, and isolationism is not profitable.

          If you look at it from a sociological perspective, there is power in numbers. And if you refuse to be friends with anyone who doesn’t fit your colour sample, you’re bound to end up with a lot fewer friends than you would if you saw people as human beings rather than as “races”.

          tl;dr: You loose.

          • lookout

            Evolution led to racism, survival of the fittest, load of rubbish.

          • English Majority

            A lof nonsense on sticks, there, but I’ll comment on this bit:

            “As an aside, “racially pure” populations are singularly ill-suited for this form of adaptation”

            Erm, it’s precisely racially pure populations that BUILT the modern world.

            Multicultural populations are impoverished, miserable, violent authoritarian failures.

          • Daniel C. Thompson

            Oh, you mean like, say Britain and America?

          • English Majority

            Britain, Europe and the USA.

          • Daniel C. Thompson

            In other words: Some of the richest and most successful places on Earth.

          • English Majority

            I was referring to formerly racially pure population/nations.

            It’s the reason Britain, Europe and the USA was the greatest civilisation in the history of mankind.

            Since the cancers of multiculturalism and immigration infected us after World War II, its been downhill all the way.

          • Sage Ham

            Paritally agree. But what madness made you get in the dregs of the world in droves – Millions of Somalis, Paki’s? My sister took years to get UK citizenship and she was a double PHD

          • Malcolm Stevas

            To believe in solidarity with one’s own people, and loyalty to one’s homeland & native culture, is not quite the same thing as “getting all your knowledge from Mein Kampf” – absurd extremes come very easily to you…

      • Gwangi

        In that case, all Chinese and Japanese people, all Indians and south Asians, and most black Africans are complete and utter racists. If a white man went to India he or his white children and grandchildren would never be considered Indian. Ditto for China. By that token, these Muslim murderers, despite being born in the UK, are not British despite their passports, because their values are not British and their loyalty is always to our enemies.
        How about we stop tiptoeing around the sensibilities of anyone with a brown face and a religion eh? Time for mass arrests, the deportation of illegal Muslim immigrants, the confiscation of passports from many young Muslim men, the arrest of socalled community leaders whose silence encourages extremism (Sir Iqbal Sacranie incited murder against Salman Rushdie yet got a knighthood instead of a prison sentence in our mad Islamophiliac multi-culti mash-up of a mad country). Time to flush the misplaced Multiculturalist ideology that caused this problem down the latrine of history and start again. This time we should say: integrate and accept our values, or leave. End of.

        • Daniel C. Thompson

          Your comment is absolutely chilling. Yuck, yuck, yuck. As I wrote in another comment, this is not a race (no pun intended) to the bottom. You can compare Britain to less palatable regimes all you like, but please don’t advocate emulating them. Again, your comment is disgusting and what you call for is inhuman.

          • Gwangi

            Well, coming from an Islamophiliac anti-Semite I think I shall take that as a compliment.
            Muslims are the enemy within. They must be monitored. And our useless pc authorities – the police, councils, academics – should take their heads out of their fundaments and DO THEIR JOB – and part of that is to ensure those who wish to spread hatred, incite murder and recruit terrorists are dealt with. Indeed, if these twerps spent half as much time and energy on that as they did hating Israel or campaigning for all women shortlists and quotas.
            Please tell oh Oh sanctimonious one, why has a man who incited violence and murder against a British citizen not been arrested? Why did Iqbal Sacranie get a knighthood instead? Oh yes, I know, because Blair’s government cuddled up to the Islamic Council of Britain because it stupidly thought they were moderates!
            Most Muslims here support ISIS and/or its basic principles. 15% of British Muslims though 9/11 a good thing – that is 300,000 people.
            We MUST monitor these people – and if necessary, secretly record what happens in mosques and colleges.
            You are just other complacent and negligent Islamophiliac, matey. The blood will thus be on your hands when more homegrown Islamist suicide bombers do their work. We COULD stop these murderers; people like you are preventing that.

          • Sage Ham

            Well said

          • Donafugata

            It’s attitudes like yours that have got us into this state of sub-civil war. In an ideal world we should n’t allow ourselves to sink to so low but these savages thrive by abusing our civilised values.
            They can even return from jihad and continue to get their jihad seekers allowance.

            Generosity to refugees but harsh treatment is necessary to the barbarians, no human rights are due.

          • Gwangi

            Absolutely right. People like this Islamophiliac used to be called USEFUL IDIOTS when helping the Soviet Union plot against us. Or traitors…
            The thing is, these people who make excuses for Islamism and tolerate the intolerable – these twerps who have allowed Islamofascism to fester for decades in our schools and universities, always defended by the police and local councils – are not JUST traitors to this country. They are traitors to Enlightenment values and modern civilisation. They are just like any traitors and are ultimately cowards, who are at best misguided, and at worst who have buckets of blood on their hands.
            And I always find it ironic that these useful idiots never seem to realise that they will be the first whose heads get chopped off in an Islamic state, with all gays, atheists, ex-Muslims, jews etc.

          • Sage Ham

            I agree with his comment and actually find it realistic

          • Sage Ham

            No it is not. It is time.

        • Donafugata

          I completely agree, Gwangi.

          The BBC and Camoron keep agonising about how “we” can stop Muslim yoof becoming radicalised, well, ***k that!

          We should be rounding up those who have been to fight or are returning and sticking them on the next available return flight, having confiscated their “British” passport first.

          Don’t let them live here.

      • GenJackRipper

        Wake up.
        How impoverished is Japan, South Korea, Finland, Iceland?

        Multicultural/ethnoc societies was a stupid dream, reality has shown over and over again that it won’t work.

        I’d happily trade and co-operate with people and countries of other races, but why continue a disastrous path of mass-emigration?

        • Daniel C. Thompson

          If by “reality”, you mean predictable populist exaggerations of any problems and zero acknowledgement of the benefits.

          Seriously. How can people still think Hitler’s ideas were spot on? How stupid can you get?

          • lookout

            The Grand Mufti of Jerusalem did, he gave Hitler a division of soldiers, he also asked Hitler to come to the middle east and finish of the Jews after he had done the job in Europe, Hamas think Hitler’s idea’s were sound, do you?

          • GenJackRipper

            Please tell me the benefits of having continous rises in crime and parts of european cities that aren’t european by anything other than geography?
            I suppose you live in these areas and thrive?

            Yes, because opposing multiculturalism after decades of disastrous results is being pro-Hitler.
            Seriously, are you trolling or can people be this simple-minded?

          • Moderator

            Immigrants become a disadvantage very quickly by sheer numbers, they form cliques, get up to all manner of anti-social behaviours which are detrimental to the local population and are a public burden.

            Look at the stats and black and Asians are overwhelmingly a burden – living in social housing, claiming benefits, unemployment rates, high birth rates ad nauseum.

      • Cooper1992

        “But surely it is much more attractive to strive for a world in which
        everyone can live safely anywhere in the world, regardless of skin
        colour. That would be a much freer world.”

        I would agree with you, but is this not just short-sighted naivety to think that this can be achieved?

        If it cannot be achieved, is is really worth pursuing? It does seem to be that multicultural, or even truly multiethnic countries, exude a lot of problems.

        Russia, Iraq, even Brazil, have always had to struggle with their diverse populations and in many cases, such as Russia, it is a deeply engrained bitterness. The United States and South Africa, two countries that have been built up from the base as multiethnic and multicultural (since 1960s and 1990s) have hugely problematic race relations.

        Money helps when it comes to creating a multicultural country – as wealth creates freedom, and freedom creates tolerance. But for how long is Western Europe going to be bathing in riches?

        Japan and South Korea are incredibly monocultural and I think they are all the better for it. The worlds new superpower China is incredibly monoethnic and is slowly becoming more monocultural because of this (recently got back from six months in China).

        We must not pursue goals that cannot be achieved, however wonderful they may be.

    • Aberrant_Apostrophe

      Would you be happy to have him described as a ‘Londonistan Fighter’?

      • English Majority

        Well, its an improvement.

    • JoeDM

      The appeasement of islamofascism by the political establishment is the problem.

      • Gwangi

        Oh yes, and whenever some Muslim beheads an innocent, or Islamic terrorists commit atrocities, or bomb and shoot and behead men, women and children around the world, the unelected leaders of Britain’s Muslims and their white middle-class so-called liberal lickspittle lackeys all shout the same thing in unison, to wit:

        THIS IS NOTHING TO DO WITH ISLAM AND IS NOT THE TRUE ISLAM.

        Oh really? Have they ever read the Koran? If you believe it word for word then what ISIS are doing is PRECISELY the ‘TRUE ISLAM’ – in fact, it’s a moderate version of what’s in that vile murder manual.

        It is time for our political representatives to start representing the British people and their revulsion with the evils of Islamic radicalism and their disgust at the silence of Muslims in the UK whenever Muslims commit atrocities – no marches, no criticism, no nothing, not a squeak out of our vibrant and diverse Muslims community which is supposedly enriching our daily lives (and yet if someone writes a book or draws a cartoon they don’t like, they scream and yell like toddlers demanding immunity from satire and lampoonery, and I won’t even start on their obsessive hatred of Israel and desire to noisily march to protest against it almost daily…)

        • Jack Cowell

          Has anyone ever committed murder, indeed violent, disgusting murder, in the name of Christianity? Has anyone every killed children and told people that “God told me to do it”, meaning their Christian God? That must be Christianity then, because these people have read the Bible.

          • Gwangi

            Yes, but a false argument because those doing it NOW are Muslims in the main.
            Ergo Islam is a backwards religion. It has had no reformation. It ossified in the 11th century and is more backwards now than 1000 years ago.
            Maybe because of the hero-worship of Mo, a mass murderer let’s not forget (unlike Jesus), and the absurd order that Muslims must follow the Koran word for word (so rayping 9 year olds and keeping slaves is OK then).
            The folly of Christians is another issue and thus a false argument by your attempting to defend these murderous barbaric Muslims and compare them to Christians.

          • Warwick

            True. Even in the last fifty years fanaticism has decreased extraordinarily in the Christian world. Specially amongst rank and file Christians – in – the – street.
            Amongst Muslims, on the other hand, fanaticism has rocketed up. The World Trade Centre atrocities are typical.

          • Gwangi

            Ah yes, but the Islamonuts have their conspiracy theories – that it was the Joooooz what done the World Trade Center, innit? Ironically they also seem to think it was a good thing that it happened – a rare example of Islamofascists praising supposedly Jewish Mossad plots…
            If you want to see nutjob Christians just look at Africa or African immigrants to the UK – seriously nutty and obsessed with branding children as witches and torturing (and sometimes killing) them. Then there is the Chinese Christian cult nuttery… And the US Creationist bonkers piffle-ication.

          • Jack Cowell
          • Gwangi

            Indeed, though African nuts are importing Christian madness into the UK as are some American evangelicals.
            But really it is nothing when compared to the monster that is Islam, which ossified in the 11th century and has departed the realms of rationalism ever since.

            The claim that Islam is comparable to Christianity is absurd because not many Christians believe the bible is word for word the word of God; all Muslims are ordered to see the Koran (NOT the ‘Qu’ran’ as Islamophiliacs now call it after being ordered to by Ayatollahs) as the word of God, utterly pure and unchangeable (utter nonsense because the Koran is actually a complete mess of a book that jumps around all over the place and contradicts itself; moreover, Muslims rely on made-up hadiths to justify many things).

            What ISIS are doing is absolutely Islam – no matter how Muslims try and argue it is not the real Islam, it is. The evidence is all there in that murder manual, the Koran.

          • LarryInIowa

            I’m pretty sure an encounter with those dreaded “evangelicals” didn’t end up in anything more horrifying than being told about Jesus and offered an opportunity to repent of your sins. Yes, madness indeed.

          • Gwangi

            I think you’ll find that they do a lot worse than that: encouraging people to throw away medication and trust in god (which kills them); encouraging people to abuse their children with exorcisms; working against AIDS charities by getting people not to use condoms.
            OK, I agree, those abroad are the worst. In Africa and in the USA, where the leading atheist campaigner was murdered, or Jamaica where they burn atheists and gay people outside churches.

          • Terry Field

            Or they burn idiots with the name of Gwangi who have holes and fresh-air between their large African ears.

          • sulbernick

            No. Africans have very small ears – situated, usually, a bit on the low side.

          • Terry Field

            Ah! An African ear fetishist – I have heard of such persons but I have never come across one until now.

          • sulbernick

            Just observant that’s all. Don’t tell me you haven’t noticed it – but I guess you are too afraid to recognise race difference, it being un-PC and all…

          • Terry Field

            Well I am certainly not PC – the problems of poor little Britain have been compounded by PC nonsense.
            No , it is simply that my slaves and indentured staff on the farms, plantations and T-shirt factories are controlled and chastised by the overseers.
            I normally do not get ‘up close and peronal’ since others are charged with that duty.
            I understand that a punitive expedition is leaving for the North to put down a Scottish rebellion by a chap known locally Alex Salmond – although his battle-name is as ‘Bravefart’ – quite appropriate I am told.

          • Sage Ham

            Correct but that is fringe. Please utilize some intellectual effort to research, listen and read. Start with Toynbee – Study of history

          • mafeking

            And it’s all for nothing. There are still no gods. Somehow we need to bring the Enlightenment to Islam.

          • Terry Field

            Ah the white man’s burden

          • MikeF

            Yes but Enlightenment values can get out of control as well and when they do you end up with the remorseless psuedo-rationalism that leads to Auschwitz and the Gulag. You could say that the general trend of European history for the last several centuries has been about seeking to find a balance between Judaeo-Christian morality and Enlightenment thinking that can avoid the worst of both.
            But over the last few decades that quest has been deliberately undermined by the left which has sought to use a domesticated but still resentful unintegrated form of Islam as a tool to try to establish a hegemonic rather than democratic political system. Unfortunately Islam has proved rather more feral and has started to act according to its own lights. That is the root cause of why the UK has proved such a particular source of Islamic fundamentalist terrorists.
            Who knows at some point the left may even decide that the muslims deserve to go the way of the ‘white working class’ that they once affected to support. But they are unlikely to go as quietly.

          • Sage Ham

            This is bang on. The left is now sort of irrelevant and we are left with this feral ideaology and culture

          • balance_and_reason

            HA…..trying to pin the gulags and Nazi’s on atheism…low and incorrect blow.

          • Peter Simmons

            You think the white working class have gone quietly? Just wait, they are part of what is building; the inevitable response to the bankrupt political class and their creed of multiculturalism, which is currently being criticised [at last] as the root cause of the problem. Previously immigrants were integrated and absorbed and lead to a vibrant, creative society which led the world in inventions and sheer creativity. To keep them in separate ethnic communities so soon after we rid the world of apartheid is the truly racist act of a confused and stupid group of people; the European political class.

          • Terry Field

            Inded- the third stage of Jihad – clearly described.

          • Jack Cowell

            Now, my point showed that reading a book and quoting from it does not mean that you follow the spirit of its meaning. It is not a false argument. The time is irrelevant to my point. The bible can be misread, so can the Qu’ran. Both have been at various times through history. Both misreadings did not encompass the whole of either religion.

            My attempt to defend murderous barbaric muslims? By suggesting that “have they ever read the Koran” is a poor piece of argument for suggesting that the actions of some people exemplifies a religion? Why do so many people read one thing and hear another?

            While this is not really salient to my point, I will answer it; those killing in the name of Jesus are doing it NOW, but seemingly less so, because Christianity has not been appropriated by a movement of the dispossessed, just as happened in the Middle East with nationalism, then
            communism, now Islamism. The man who shoots a whole family in Texas and claims God wanted him to, that is Christianity because he read the Bible?

          • Gwangi

            Misread? Have you read the Koran? It recommends killing non-Muslims, atheists, jews, all women who disobey; it recommends trading slaves and castrating them; it recommends executing Muslims who leave Islam.
            ISIS is the true face of Islam, matey. Because Muslims believe the Koran is the literal word of Allah (as related by an angel to that illiterate mass-murdering kiddy fiddler Mohammed, who then remembers it all and wrote it down. Yeah right…)
            You are making excuses for any Muslim who chooses to behave like a barbarian but not making excuses for those of other religions who do the same. Therefore, you are suffering from the terrible disease of Islamophilia. Please seek help before it’s too late…

          • Jack Cowell

            Listen here you patronising pleb, you can drop the ‘matey’ stuff for a start; it gives off the impression that you are putting me in my place, and thus has no place in a rational argument.

            You are making huge logical jumps. I make excuses for any muslim who behaves like a barbarian, but not making excuses for those of other religions that do the same? How?

            By saying that just as some people get twisted and read things into the Bible’s words, so too do people read things into the Qu’ran’s words? That is what i said, but you couldn’t perform the mamouth tasks of reading words and following their meaning could you?

            Verses such as: “Go up, my warriors,
            against the land of Merathaim and against the people of Pekod. Yes, march against Babylon, the land of rebels, a land that I will judge! Pursue, kill, and completely destroy them, as I have commanded you,” says Allah, the merciful, the great. “Let the battle cry be heard in the land, a shout of great destruction”, may initially seem like they command all Muslims to never lay down the sword of jihad, but this one doesn’t, as it comes from the Bible. I merely changed Lord for Allah. The Qu’ran does not recommend killing Christians and Jews; it calls them people of the book, and Mohammed’s first community in Medina lived side by side with Jews.

            Don’t let your stupidity take hold of you. read those words for what they are. You will want to take from them that I hate christians and I love Islamic fundamentalism, and that’s OK, because you are stupid, but read, re-read, and read again, make notes on WHAT MY WORDS SAY, and then respond.

          • Gwangi

            Oh patronising plebby Islamophiliac one. I am perfectly familiar with calls for violence in ALL religious books, the Koran and the Bible. The difference is – and it is a stark difference – that there is not a rampaging army of barbarians beheading innocent men, women and children and even crucifying them in the Middle East in the name of their Bible reading group, is there?
            I need no history lessons either. I know full well about how non-Muslims lived in ancient Muslim societies BUT they were certainly NOT equals; they were dhimmis. Ironically, many people think this ancient Muslim age was so uber-tolerant because that was British and French propaganda in the 19th century, designed to stop Russia moving south on a pretext to defending the Christians in Istanbul. Look it up, mate. I am right. Old Islamic societies treated non-Muslims are 2nd class citizens, made them pay more tax, and could destroy them at any moment.

          • Jack Cowell

            I know they were treated as 2nd class citizens. But that wasn’t your claim. You tell me to look up facts that you should look up – they didn’t need, as Muslims, to murder them. That was what you said. You prove yourself wrong, sensationalist drivel.

            Yes. Exactly! That is the difference! It isn’t the books, or the religion, it is the people! Analyse those people! They are disenfranchised, poor, easily manipulated for political purposes.

            The 9/11 bombers went to strip clubs 2 weeks before the attacks. Hardly devout Muslims. If you did ban Islam, then the people using it as a galvanising tool would simply move to Arab nationalism (Nasser et al.) or communism, as the Middle East saw a lot of not too long before it failed, which led people to try Islamism in the first place. Each time you would ban the word they use. What a shallow solution.

          • Gwangi

            Oh dear, You think devout Muslims don’t drink, do drugs, visit strip clubs or prostitoots? Ho ho ho! The highest usage of both heroin and pawn website is in Muslim states. Moreover, the Koran does NOT say do not drink alcohol, just to be moderate, JUST like the bible and other religious texts – and Mo himself drank wine, in between rayping children and chopping the heads of his critics.
            No-one is arguing for Islam to be banned. More fantasy and lies from you with your absurd straw man arguments.I would however like us to bomb the buuggerree out of ISIS and also closely monitor all Muslims in the UK for the foreseeable future. That is responsible and clear-headed; your constant apologies and excuses for all Muslims fail to realise the real threat some of them are – that is wilful blindness and negligence. Makes you a useful idiot of their Islamo-army though eh?

          • Donafugata

            I’d like Islam to be banned and all Muslims expelled from Europe.

            The Nazis passed the Nuremberg Laws, severely limiting what the Jewish population could do and all on the pretext that they were Bolsheviks trying to take over the world.
            Of course, this was simply racism and the Jews were completely blameless.

            Now that Europe is infested with a truly supremacist, alien death cult that aspires to a global caliphate it is time to legislate and seriously enforce laws banning Islam.
            Muslims need to ship out to a country more suited to their needs.

          • TimboX

            Agree 100%, there is no place for Islam in Europe. It doesn’t belong in a civilised society.

          • Jack Cowell

            Good job you’re not in charge. Banning a very diffuse, evolving and complex idea: always the best way to win a war of hearts and minds, hey?

            You draw a nice analogy with the rather blunt instrument manner that the Nazis went about racially purifying a nation – what would be your iron cast definition of Muslim, the one that you would use to ship them out without prejudice or favour?

          • Sage Ham

            Why would done want to win the hearts and minds? Very difficult to get the love of a hyena.

          • Jack Cowell

            The very first response to me on this article called for it to be banned, and your reply to me was part of that conversation. Also, a careful scroll down will reveal quite a few people suggesting that it should be banned. You are so slow man.

          • Sage Ham

            Sometime childish clarity is the solution. Islam does not condemn them. Infact the reason why muslims are condemning these acts is they can see what a PR disaster this is. Taqqiya will ensure that you remain two faced. Just like the Arab traders who say America is great at your face before you buy the carpet 🙂

          • Donafugata

            As with many who wield an once of power, Muslim men are some of the biggest hypocrites on the face of the earth.

          • English Majority

            Yes, you’re right.

            Its the people.

            And the people are brown, Muslim hordes.

            Solution: Deport all above mentioned people.

            A bonus would be to deport extreme-Left fascists such as yourself. Preferably to Iraq, or summat.

          • TimboX

            I think far left extremists should be banned from public speaking and the Labour party proscribed for causing this violence on our streets.

          • Jack Cowell

            Nice one mate. You’ve taken a very irrational, unreasonable stance, that sounds proud, sounds dead big and impressive that. Sure that impressed all the kids in school: “Well if he wants to mark my homework down, I’m never gona do any, ever again, ‘cos I’m dead hard and I’m not bothered. I think what I think and that’s that.”

            Sure that’s gotten you very far, thinking like that. What do you do?

            And grow up you pathetic w*nker. I’m centre-right, and your blithe comments are absurd. Now answer me, what do you do for a living?

          • English Majority

            I see you’re a step above the usual Leftie Troll.

            Alright, yeah: the ‘extreme-Left fascist’ bit might have gone a tad too far, like.

            For a living, I’m a porn star

          • Jack Cowell

            Not a troll at all. Very quick to give me a name aren’t you? Because I think your statement that you want to deport me makes you a w*nker? Is it my swearing? Because I have been nothing but reasonable until you posted that stupid comment, totally justifying me in getting angry.

            You say the usual leftie troll as if you spend your time beating them in argument. I doubt you fully grasp how meaningless you are; say what you want on little forums, but given how stupid you clearly are, you’ll always amount to nothing.

            Ah good, a joke answer, ashamed? Not doing too well then?

          • Sage Ham

            Excuses and poison. The argument that tries to confuse saintliness and religiosity. There are poor, disenfranchised people everywhere. None are a block of 1.5B. None, blow up and behead at such admirable regularity, Not spit on the face of thier hosts and take over the society they way Islam has. Also I have been to quite a number of mosque sermons. I was getting a free ticket to heaven and have my last few days in this world i may like a strip club.. woudln you?

          • Jack Cowell

            Bet the cartels of Mexico will be damn surprised to find out that they are Muslims, what with their constant beheadings.

            I didn’t realise that the Khmer Rouge were Muslims?

            I am as surprised as the next man to find out that Stalin was a devout Muslim, especially given his party’s views on religion.

            Socialism does exactly that when it is used as a manipulative tool.

            Nationalism does exactly that when it is used as a manipulative tool.

            Islamism does exactly that when it is used as a manipulative tool.

            You have completely misunderstood me, unsurprisingly, because you make very little sense. I think you have done so willfully in fact.

            Islam is a dangerous fairy story, like all religions, but fairy stories don’t kill. Compare it to the kids who kill because they got inspiration from a video game; you rightly laugh at those that blame the video game. Why blame the book? Blame the man. You are a total coward if you refuse to do so.

          • Gwangi

            I too lived surrounded by Muslims for years – in London. The difference is, I didn’t go native and become and apologist for fascism with a Muslim face, which seems to be what has happened to you. Shame.

          • Pootles

            You quote from the Old Testament, and, as you will know, that is superseded by the New Testament. The Old Testament has a role in Christianity in that it provides a geneological and predictive account of the coming of the Messiah. Christians believe that the Messiah is Jesus Christ. It is his life and teachings, especially as revealed in the Gospels, that provides the primary teaching for a Christian – i.e., that which is found in the New Testament, the new covenant, which supersedes the Old. Try contrasting the life and teachings of Mohammed (whom Muslims believe is the ‘perfect man’ to be emulated), with those of Jesus Christ.

          • Jack Cowell

            In which case, why don’t Christians follow the teachings of Christ? As someone who was, lived and died a Jewish man, preaching a better adherence to Rabbinical law, his example seems to have been forgotten for the sake of this invented ideal?

            Mohammed had to deliver teachings so as to be not too abrasive to Arabic traditions. Unfortunately, his purely religious teachings have been mixed up with his contingent commands for running a 6th C society. So too has the historicising and Europeanisation of Christianity produced this organised religion that breeds supremacism, hatred and ignorance. Christianity has been made into what it is through the belief that what was true for Jesus then is true for us now, heavy editing of the Bible and the slow, insidious evolution of the teleology to suit the needs of those in power. The same is true of Islam with Arabic traditions and Arabic needs.

            Both have been turned into such horrific b*stards of religions, with all of their little sects, interpretations and mythologies, that banning either of them simpliciter is just absurd. To want to ban Islam and not Christianity is to choose a nice interpretation of Christianity and a bad interpretation of Islam; an arbitrary choice.

          • Pootles

            I haven’t proposed ‘banning Islam’. Nor would I – it would be a tad difficult considering that it has about one and a half billion adherents.
            Much of your response to my post is unclear, and doesn’t really address the issue of the dramatically different life and teachings of Christ, compared with those of Muhammed.

          • Jack Cowell

            No, you havent, but that was the proposal that my first response on this thread was responding to, and it is to that post that people responded. You may never have suggested it, but that it was the ‘conversation’ is about. I thus took your response in context of that discussion, i.e, in response to me saying that banning Islam is like banning Christianity, you posted a comment saying Islam and Christianity are totally different (or words to that effect, you know what i mean). What else am I to think?

            It does; as I said in response to one of your comments, it is all to do with interpretation. Muhammed proposed loads of things that were necessary, given that he lived within a tribal, traditionally centred culture. Much of his teaching is ambiguous, has been taken by the reader and necessarily understood in their historical context, and has been transformed accordingly.

            Things like “render unto Caesar that which is Caesar’s” are incredibly ambiguous and could be given a whole range of meanings if someone chose to use it for political purposes.

            Does that also mean that Christians always have to pay their taxes, regardless of the authority that said taxes go to? Not according to contemporary Christian thought, as again, we have interpretation and change in response to reality.

            This is the crux of my point; their teachings are only so widely differing because of the difference in interpretation that people have give them, done in response to different political realities. Both, as judgmental religions born out of fear of loneliness and death, are equal in terms of ethical content; what they say about the world now is the product of history, not the word of God.

          • Pootles

            I take the ‘ban Islam’ point – I was responding to something else you said. I still don’t accept that the ‘teachings are only so widely differing because of the difference in interpretation that people have give them’, because the two key figures, Christ and Mohammed, are so vastly different. The life of Christ is in no way like the life of Mohammed, and no amount of ‘interpretation’ will make it so. Like I said earlier, when Christians behave appallingly, they do so without any model in Christ. When the Jihadi Islamists behave appallingly they can, and do, with justification, point to the life of Mohammed.
            The issue we face today, now, is that there are many hundreds of thousands of Islamists who entirely support ISIS, Boko Haram etc, along with the idea of a Caliphate. There are millions of Muslims who believe in Sharia. It appears that today, in the UK, we have thousands of Muslims willing to fight for a Caliphate, and probably the majority of Muslims in the UK support Sharia. This is a direct, dangerous threat, a threat, moreover, that has been imported into the UK by our stupid, self-serving politicians. By contrast, there is no threat whatsoever from Christians.

          • Jack Cowell

            That is a very good point, and I do agree to a substantial degree. The two key figures in both religions are indeed vastly different. But they are very alike in that you can take from them what you will. That is my point about not being able to ban Islam; banning the whole thing will 1) galvanise anti-Western sentiment 2) secure the position of the West as the enemy of Islam 3) remove a much needed source of inspiration to do good for vast swathes of the Muslim world.

            Many people on here point to the fact that top clerics use Islam to justify horror, and suggest that this means it is inherently bad. They then refuse to believe that Muslims condemning violence in the name of Islam means that the religion is also inherently good. A cleric says something good “well that is the religion then!”. Another cleric says something good, “well what about that first chap?” Why people do this must have something to do with group psychology, because it is irrational.

            The truth falls in between: religion is inherently nothing but that which we choose to make it. The life of Muhammed can justify so much evil, yet it can and does justify so much good. Throwing out the religion (again, I know you’re not suggesting this, but that is my entire point) is to throw out the baby with the bathwater. Many Muslims in the UK do support the Caliphate, but we should see the fact that they are Muslim as secondary to the fact that they support the Caliphate, not as a qualifier, for the above reasons: it is a tool that people use for their own purposes, and contains so little inherent normative weight.

          • Pootles

            Good. Your clearest and best post. I agree. It is also, going from what you say, vitally important for non-Islamist Muslims to make as much noise as possible when condemning the Islamists.

          • Jack Cowell

            Yes it most certainly is. They are pretty vocal about it, but the media have little interest in promoting that; doesn’t really make good headlines apparently, certainly not as good as “Radicals walk among us!” They should bear their fair share of the blame, because a large portion of the Muslim community wants to speak out, but they wont sell papers, so the press don’t care.

          • Sage Ham

            There is not “contextual” or ambiguousness. One of the best explainations I have seen are the Islam is a religion of peace debate on Intelligence squared

          • Jack Cowell

            “there is no contextual or ambiguousness” – Explain how religions don’t change depending on the context that they are in. You have to explain yourself, you cannot simply make huge statements such as “there is no context”, which is plainly ridiculous.

          • Sage Ham

            No it is not. The major body of Islam and Muslims are very clear. There is a Koran and Hadith.. with clearly abrogated verses. Majority of religious clerics are clear what the standard is especially in Arabic or Urdu media. The fundamental message over an above the “victim” narrative, is that the infidel is for the taking and the abject surrender in the west is the Work of Allah. Anyway this is all academic. The demographic change is well on its way. Most key European cities will he Moslem by 2018+. Elected leaders will be Moslem and the agenda will be Moslem. Agreed that if the Europeans wish this and this may explain why they are spreading their …… wide. its their cup of tea. I don’t undertand this though.

          • Jack Cowell

            That is total bullshit about the population. I want your sources.

            Here you seem to be losing the point of my comments, which have all been in response to the suggestion that Islam should be banned. All of my comments are in the context of that debate; if you didn’t realise this, then you should have read the whole discussion.

            True, loads of clerics are clear about what the standard is for Sunni Islam, especially Hanbali and Shafii adherents (in my experience anyway, although I am not stating this as fact). But Sunni Islam is not ALL of Islam, just as Baptists are not all of Christianity. I’ve met Christians who think Hindus are scum who should burn in hell for worshiping false idols, who think homosexuals should be imprisoned, but then I’ve met others who volunteer in soup kitchens and who don’t judge, just preach forgiveness.

            Some clerics claim one thing is the standard, while others claim it is something else. Banning the religion simpliciter would be insane and unhelpful, turning previously westernised, peaceful Muslims into radicals by showing the West to be their enemy. Why do this, especially when the religion has so much to offer as a tool for inspiring poor young men to do good instead of evil? Why not engage it and harness it? Banning it is a terrible, weak and lazy idea.

          • Sage Ham

            Are you serious. there are more Brit Mooslems in the ISIS than the Brit Army. The only good mooslem is a bad one – meaning one who does not really read his religion. This explains why the 2/3rd generation immigrant is more radical – because he is more religiously literate.He reads the Quran unlike my friends. Please don’t pretend to be a disinterested participant – you are a clear Moos practicing takiya.

          • Jack Cowell

            That would be going on government estimates, which at 500 seem misleadingly low. Counting everyone who HAS been to fight for ISIS already and returned, I’ve heard some estimates as high as 1,000. That would constitute 0.04% of Britain’s Muslim population. Looks like 99.96% of them are rejecting their faith?

            Don’t pontificate to me about where I stand you complete cretin. You can barely use my beloved language so don’t talk down to me in it. I know exactly where i stand and I have made that plainly clear, but you consistently fail to take my words for what they say, instead assuming what you like and chatting breeze. I’m sure your wife is very impressed with your incredible grasp on the world and argumentative prowess, so save it for her.

          • Sage Ham

            I missed this. This is brilliant rationalization. lets just try this – 0.25% of Nazis actually ran concentration camps so.. get my drift. I am ok with being a cretin but that is better than being a two faced agent of destruction trolling message boards to further your facist ideology

          • Jack Cowell

            That is an unreasonable comparison in its entirity. Firstly, you mentioned those fighting for ISIS, suggesting that there are more Muslims fighting for them than the British army, which I can only assume was an attempt to suggest that more Muslims support ISIS than Britain, or whatever. My response is therefore perfectly valid.

            It is also a totally unreasonable comparison as the two are not similar. It would be a reasonable comparison if those Nazis not running the camps had vocally condemned them, or had actively decided not to participate in them, or had tried to persuade others not to assist in the running of the camps, or if the Nazis were not a homogenous group but a varied and abstract ideology with many subgroups and sects. Putrid argument. Trying to have a rational debate, albeit with someone who has assumed intelligence for some reason, is not trolling. (Don’t do the obvious and turn this last sentence round, as in “yes it is, you are the one…”, it’ll be boring).

            I will repost some questions I have already asked you, and which you have failed to respond to, so you can answer them altogether.

          • Sage Ham

            In destroying Christianity, your destroy yourself. I would rather be an atheist in a Chistian society that in an Muslim one. Britain is Christian. You have to accept this. That is its strength. I am neither British nor white. But I fully understand why a previous poster want to kick out the browns. We kicked out the whites for the same reason. You did not have an issue then. You are really a sad manifestation if you are true

          • Jack Cowell

            I’m not really sure what you think I am proposing, you clearly follow the usual pattern on here of skim reading, deciding whether I am either the Last Crusader or a murderous Jihadi, and proceeding accordingly. Here friend, please clarify:

            “I would rather be an atheist in a Chistian society that in an Muslim one.” -Great. Never said I wanted a Muslim Britain. I want a secular Britain. Thank you for this irrelevant info.

            “Britain is Christian.” – The same way Vietnam is communist or Thailand is Buddhist, in outward trappings and a small % of the population, and of course, our wonderful heritage.

            Why should we “kick out the browns” as you so eloquently put it? And how am I “destroying Christianity”?

          • Grumpy

            You hit the nail on the head. Anyone like your hypothetical Texan would rightly be considered insane under any circumstances, likewise we should treat Islamism as a mental illness. Those proselytising its views should be simply locked up in a secure unit and sedated for an indeterminate period–no trials, no bail, no parole–when the wages of faith appear to be sitting in a pool of urine and wearing restraints for ever, maybe fewer will find radicalism attractive.

          • Jack Cowell

            Exactly. It is like a man who claims he is a werewolf running round biting people. We wouldn’t go looking for other werewolves, or banning the books that he read that he thought told hi the ‘truth’ and ‘set him free’, we would treat him like the dangerous psychopath that he is. All of this religious hatred is just pathetic, worthy of the middle ages. Too many people in Britain are too eager to justify their passion for hate. They need an extreme view to build their character on, most of the time because they are either stupid, unemployed, shallow, scared, or all of the above.

          • Gwangi

            Who talked about banning any books? Oh yeah, it’s religious people who tend to want that…
            Islam is to blame for what ISIS are doing and they are doing what they do in the name of religion. That is not religious hatred at all; that is just saying what I see and hear. A lone nutjob in Texas is a false argument – he is NOT a moving of hate inspired by religion.
            When suicide bombers reach for the button, the scream ALLAH U AKBAR – now, does that mean ‘I am a happy atheist’ in Ragheadese? Nope, it means God is Greater.
            What the f are you talking about with werewolves? I suspect you’d be happy to burn atheists and heretics at the stake, to be honest. That is religious extremism.

          • Jack Cowell

            The mention of werewolf is called an anaology: it is swapping the objects of a situation, making them either more familiar or more outrageous, but keeping the outline the same to help people understand it better. Too much for you? I’ll try it using letters.

            A is walking down the street. He claims he is a member of group B. A hurts someone. Do we lock up A and claim that he is a lunatic, or blame it on group B, most of whom reject A and his claim to be a member of B?

            Let me guess; “what are you talking about As and Bs for?” – f’ing idiot.

            The claims of suicide bombers are superficial. Japanese kamakazee pilots killed themselves for their leader, who used symbolism and populism, as well as pseudo-religiosity, to maintain their unwavering obedience and belief in the cause. They killed themselves in the name of Japan. Would your solution there be to ban Japan?

            MI5 conducted a thorough investigation and concluded overhwlemingly that Islam itself does not drive young men to jihad, but rather underemployment, loss of identity, social exclusion, and manipulation by those with a purely political agenda. It is an age old story. The poor, the dispossessed, the disenfranchised, the powerless are always easily guided by extreme ideologies.

            Communist terrorism, they claimed to be acting on behalf of the proletariat. Ban the proletariat?

            KKK; they claimed to be acting in the interests of white gentile, protestant males; why not ban protestantism then? They claim to be speaking on behalf of the religion don;t they?

            ‘I suspect you’d be happy to burn atheists…” -what? What an embarrassing claim for you. Based on what? You sad, weak, scared little person.

          • Gwangi

            Nope, it is called a FALSE ANALOGY, or a nonsensical one. Those who don’t know how to debate use them all the time.
            Werewolves have nothing to do with Muslims, though some of their women sport enough facial hair to qualify, no doubt.

          • Jack Cowell

            Not sure I ever said that Islam was a tolerant religion? You have yet again assumed things, which is all the more pathetic because of the huge intellect you assume you have. You have once again taken my criticism of your logic as either a defense of Islam or an attack on yourself. You are pathetic, a child probably.

            Yes, they don’t force people to join or pay a tax. Nor do Muslims act like Werewolves. You misunderstand the point of analogy. The analogy was drawn between the two situation REGARDING YOUR LOGIC PROCESS. I was drawing an analogy between the various situations regarding the assignment of blame, not the exact behavior of the subjects. I made that very clear. I did not say; but the KKK are doing what Muslims do!

            Let me ask you then of the KKK; they claim to be acting on behalf of Christians, so, IF they were ‘running round beheading people’, WOULD the answer be to ban Christianity?

            What about the As and Bs? I used that to clarify and sharpen my analogy, anticipating how wrong you’d get it, removing all normative claims about the religion, the people, etc. Answer me that, the question I asked:

            A is walking down the street. He claims he is a member of group B. A hurts someone. Do we lock up A and claim that he is a lunatic, or blame it on group B, most of whom reject A and his claim to be a member of B?

            If you can’t answer me that simple question without talking about Islam, you are an obsessive.

            N.b I know nothing of Islam? I have lived amongst Muslims for years, I have studied the religion, the political movements associated with it, and secular movements of the Middle East, in great detail. I speak (admittedly poor) Arabic.

          • rubes love

            If Jesus were to return during a Texas man’s massacre He would be saddened and appalled. Similarly if Mohammed were to be reincarnated during a beheading or massacre he would feel right at home, it would be as if time has stood for him.

          • Sage Ham

            I am a south asian that has lived across the world. let me assure the behind closed doors, there is a lot of South Asian mirth at the +John Cowley style argument. Bit like thost girls in college who were passionate about war and equal right. Thank good for them!

          • Peter Simmons

            Bullshit, that’s yet another American phychotic with guns. There’s a lot of them about, hadn’t you heard? Just because his victims were Muslims makes no difference. When a cop shoots a black teenager, it’s racism.

          • Pootles

            Any Christian who murdered, waged war, and carried out vile acts in the name of Christ was doing so in specfific opposition to the life and teachings of Christ. Any Muslim who murders, wages war, and carries out vile acts, can point to the life and teaching of Mohammed to justify those actions. Therein lies a key difference.

          • TimboX

            Spot on, 100% right. That is the key difference. Islam is unlike any other religion in the world in that it venerates a rapist, pedophile and murderer.

          • Jack Cowell

            “Out of his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. ‘He will rule them with an iron scepter.’

            It just comes down to interpretation though doesn’t it? I mean, the above quote could quite easily lead me to say: “Christianity is quite unlike any religion in that it awaits the coming of an oppressive and totalitarian dictator.” There are sections of the Bible that modern Christians (if you can call them that) choose to ignore, all that fire and brimstone for non-believer stuff, but they will choose the worst sections of the Qu’ran to take as fact.

            They’re both incredibly dangerous religions because they rely on this very old book, written by people with little understanding of the way our world is today, and both of these books probably bear little resemblance to what was first written in them anyway. Banning one and not the other is quite an arbitrary and ultimately dangerous choice.

          • TimboX

            No not all, in fact you’ve got it completely wrong.

            Jesus had the central message of turning the other cheek, of non-violence and forgiveness.

            Mohammed’s was of rape, murder, enslavement, pedophilia, subjugation, death and destruction.

            In many ways it doesn’t matter what is or isn’t written in either the Bible or the koran, what matters is that the followers of each respective religion are expected to emulate the life of their prophets.

            That is why Islam is dangerous.

          • Sage Ham

            Now that we find Islam to be almost undefendable, we club it with Christianity. Why is it not possible to discuss Islam independently. Why should Britain rationalize other relegions. I for want want US, Europe and Britain to be Chirstian. That is the best bet for minorities, freedom and free speech. The moment I see one other proven experiment I will bend over. Leftist and facists did not do well elsewhere in history did they?

          • Jack Cowell

            So you want everyone to be Christian in these countries? I don’t understand your point. We should rationalise Islam because people are using it as a tool to turn people into weapons, to be used against us, that is why.

          • Sage Ham

            No, I wish they retain their Christian identity and primacy because that is the best bet for a multicultural world. The west was the one place were you could be who you were. Not USSR, Not Iran, Not Nigeria, Not China, Not even India today. Unfortunately a society needs a religions anchor. You may hate this point but its been demonstrated again and again. Then I would prefer the English form of Chirstianity rather than anything else in the world and certainly not Islam in any form. You cannot rationalize Islam just like you can turn a tiger vegetarian. Well, you can try but I have children you see and I cannot risk this.

          • Jack Cowell

            That is both just not true and pessimistic. The West was the place to go to be who you are because of its secular nature, not because of its religious nature. You are confusing the religion of Christianity with the experience of formerly Christian countries. The English form of Christianity of which you speak is an appearance only religion.

            A society does not need a religious anchor for its morality; we should be aiming to move beyond this weakness, this strange sickness that we have where we, and by we, I mean weak, stupid people, cant understand that something might be wrong BECAUSE IT IS, not because some fairy tale says so.

            I am not a Christian, and England is not a Christian country. We certainly were, and some very unsavoury characters remain so today, but most British people are far, far away from being Christians, and they know right from wrong.

            Before anyone comes in with the suggestion that we have Christian morals, you should read my point more carefully, and what it is in response to. Tired of people repeating tedious and irrelevant facts to me.

          • Sage Ham

            🙂 you seem to have the most number of posts here with were little acts to contribute other than just obfuscating issues to protect Islam

          • Sage Ham

            No, I wish they retain their Christian identity and primacy because that is the best bet for a multicultural world. The west was the one place were you could be who you were. Not USSR, Not Iran, Not Nigeria, Not China, Not even India today. Unfortunately a society needs a religions anchor. You may hate this point but its been demonstrated again and again. Then I would prefer the English form of Chirstianity rather than anything else in the world and certainly not Islam in any form. You cannot rationalize Islam just like you can turn a tiger vegetarian. Well, you can try but I have children you see and I cannot risk this.

          • Sage Ham

            Crap about giving one religion credibility bay comparing it with another. Its like saying comparing Gandhi and Stalin – Both were liberators

          • Jack Cowell

            Exaplain what you mean here in more words, clearly and precisely, so I may respond, because you make no sense here.

          • Sage Ham

            What bull crap! “Out of his mouth…” You can count more than 500 ghastly verses and incidents in big Mo life. In fact after reading his history of beheading, stoning, Chile molestation, incitement of violence.. I finally understood, why everyone has to beg God to give him some peace – pbuh. Christianity’s issue is that they have become non violent. The Middle East Orthodox Xtians prayed to God and are now wiped out. The Spanish Catholics drew the sword and regained their homeland. I hope this madness inspires Christians to rise up and throw the turn your other check claptrap into a bin bag.

          • Jack Cowell

            Christians have become non-violent? I thought that was your big point in Christianity’s favour, not your issue? I assumed the above quote would inspire you, not be something to compare to the teachings of Mohamed?

            Fighting militant Islamism with militant Christianism would be like fighting militant black supremacism with militant white supremacism; an utterly awful, weak, and ultimately useless choice. As I have said all along, without ever defending the moral worth of Islam by the way, mug, banning Islam or attacking it in any way is ultimately to attack the wrong target and to make more of an enemy out of the West than needs be. That is the last thing we need. The faith is not the issue, and I do not say that out of some love of Islam you total child, but out of my recognition of reality.

            The issue is the lure of an extremist ideology; the Arab world was once besotted with communism, and committed terrorism in its name. The problem is that huge swathes of the world are not ready to be dragged into the 21st Century, let alone to be engaged with the first-world West. They’re just not there yet. To be honest, I don’t think you are either. Where are you from by the way? Your refusal to actually listen to what I’m saying and your adoption of an extreme, childlike pride makes me think Vietnam (based on my experience with the Vietnamese, you argue very similarly)?

            Middle East Christians wiped out? Ever been to Lebanon? How about Syria? Egypt (not Mid-East but I will count)? No? All developed nations, all Muslim majority, all with thriving and sizeable Christian populations. Answer me; how is that possible in your world? Why is it only underdeveloped nations and isolated parts of the world that see the religious persecution of the kind you speak?

          • Jack Cowell

            That view is based on your interpretation of Christ’s teachings. The person killing in Christs name does so, in his belief, with full Biblical justification. Many Muslims view ISIS soldiers as heretics. Herein lies the danger of religions based on (if you will) unchanging texts – open to widely differing interpretations, unresponsive to human realities or what our spirit is ready for.

          • Pootles

            I don’t agree. It would be extremely difficult, if not impossible, for any Christian to justify the sort of acts we are talking about with reference to the life and teachings of Christ. However, an Islamist can point to the life and teachings of Mohammed to justify killing, mutilation, stonings, and all the other elements of Jihad and Sharia.

          • Simon Rhodes

            Er, a think you’ll find that we dont have to go too far back into Christian history to find that it was so. Spanish Inquisition, Crusades. Its just that Christianity has matured & its about time Islam did the same

          • Gwangi

            And that will never happen as long as the so-called liberals in the west allow the literalist Muslims dominate the debate as the true voice of Islam. There are moderate Muslims who are rational and do not see the Koran as word for word the word of Allah to be obeyed to the letter, but their argument is always undermined by the Western liberal elite who pander to the conservative puritanical literalist Muslims who wear headscarves, burkas, pray 5 times a day, shun alcohol, want Sharia law etc. There are other Muslims out there. I remember sharing some drinks with some in Turkey actually, and with some Muslims Albanians in Greece. And the Bosnian Muslims told the Jihadists who went there to F off and leave them alone. People in the UK assume Islam is ALL the one we see promoted by Pakistani Muslims here – in fact that is Pakistani Islamic culture, backwards and vile, as it is the Arabian Wahabi version which has been the best funded and which now dominated. Time for the useful idiots to realise the error of their ways and to stop validating these zealous intolerant literalist Muslims who run radical intolerant organisations like the Muslim Council of Britain.

          • Jack Cowell

            That is exactly my point. To ban Islam on the basis of people committing atrocities in its name is to want to ban christianity, hinduism, communism, even democracy if you stick to the logic. I made it abundantly clear that that is what I was saying.

            I’m not sure I appreciate the “er, I think you’ll find” tone seeing as you’ve 1) completely failed to grasp the simple point I was making, 2) stated a very, VERY well known historical fact as if it was insightful and interesting.

          • Sage Ham

            Spanish Inquisition ??. If the Catholics had not stood thier ground then you would all have been speaking arabic. Thank God for the pragmatic Catholics.

          • Sage Ham

            hahaha. Crusades. The ME was Christian. People tried to liberate their capital. that is bad?.

          • Sage Ham

            Er. Spanish inquisition?.. You have your land ruled by Moors and your women raped and you fight back and its er.. bad? Oh yes, this is a country which gets 1400 girls raped by savages and er.. explains it to police complicity. Crusades.. er Jerusalem, and Orthodox city for centuries raped and pillaged by Mooslems. Some guys try to take it back and er its vicious. Do a google seach and compare the number of time the Crusades are brought up and say the Armenian holocaust. lets see the outrage “jack Cowell” and his Mooslem or Leftie ilk show for the xtian genocide in the middle east. Lets see him campaign for a church or even an atheist hall in Saudi Arabia now that you have mosques in every Christian city in the world. er liberals, you are being hung with your own ropes!

          • Arthur Thistlewood

            Yes, they have. But the Christian world has had the renaissance, scientific revolution, the enlightenment and the development of democracy since the crusades.

          • Terry Field

            That is about as cretinour, dangerously delusional and deliberately obfuscating a reply as it is possible to make.

          • Jack Cowell

            Explain yourself.

          • Terry Field

            It is simple.
            That comment is a pointless diversion from the essential problem that is, as yet, not recognised by large sections of the population, and is deliberately obscured by government and its agencies.
            The truth that most Europeans face is one of the marginalisation of their cultural inheritance – that has Christian roots, even if the core belief has been abandoned by many.
            The incompatibility is the Koran, its commands and world-view, and the nature and objectives of its acolytes, whether or not they presently murder in its name.
            Your observation concerning Christianity is clearly the record of some times, and some places. It has been both glorious and terrible, depending who has used it for power and control.
            BUT THAT DOES NOT HELP US HERE
            The theocratisation of the Middle East is proceeding apace everywhere in that part of the world. Forces that held it back for centuries are now gone and will not return.
            ISIS is not an issue the ‘west’ (France UK and USA) can control, remove and replace with our version of sweet reasonableness.
            SO
            Consider how the world should be as the new religious world of the Levant establishes itself.
            A question to you. Leaving aside your observations concerning the patchy history of Christianity, if you are familiar with the three stages of Jihad in the Koran, what do you say about the continued residence of vast numbers of Muslims in the UK???
            Please do not parrot government propaganda.
            I retract the word ‘cretinous’ – plainly unjustified.

          • Jack Cowell

            Thank you for your response.

            Of the vast numbers of Muslims living in the UK; if they choose to interpret Islam in a way that is compatible with civilised, law-abiding and tolerant society, then they are most definitely welcome, valuable additions to our society.

            You are too keen to get across your “let us face facts, me lad” / “I’m a realist” persona, as you have taken what I said and misunderstood what it means. Christianity’s murky past does help us here, because it, like Islam, is a blank slate, to draw on whatever you want. It can be a murderous, bigoted and hateful ideology, or it can be artistic inspiration, a force for good, justice and moderation (until, admittedly, society is ready to ‘go it alone’ with these principles).

            It helps us here because this entire conversation is to do with the notion of ‘banning Islam’, which is tantamount to saying: “well, we can’t be bothered to deal with this problem properly, addressing the hatred that is in these people’s minds towards our way of life, so let us criminalise young men who have read the Qu’ran, choose to believe a few passages, and want to dedicate their lives to charity and spreading peace.”

            You sound as though you are obsessed with getting across to people the negative aspects of Islam to the extent that anything anyone says that resembles understanding that religions can do good as well as evil is ‘government propaganda’ and unrealistic. If it makes you feel better, I get that as a religion, Islam easily lends itself to extremism and hate. I get that it is easily radicalised and thus made appealing to disaffected youth wanting to believe in something extreme. Everybody knows that, but taking the stance you do is unhelpful here. We were talking about banning a religion that is far from one religion, similar to banning all of Christianity because so many Baptists, if not all of them, are actively homophobic. it is absurd and beneath us as a liberal democracy.

          • Terry Field

            You say if they behave they can stay.
            But the Kornan refers to very different behaviour by the same people according to the cultural circumstance they , as Moslems, find themselves in.
            Moslems know the Koran backwrds and are taught its meaning. They are free to non-believers concerning their actions, and their intentions; the Koran says that that is perfectly fine.
            One of the difficulties that you have is the lack of knowledge of the intention of the group.
            You assume benign intentions?
            But why?
            Where is your evidence?
            You simpy hope for the best.
            Given the track record, that seems, to put it generously, foolhardy.
            As for the negative aspects of Islam, perhaps you could advise me of the positive aspects? Most of us cannot identify them and I certainly cannot – in the context of my inherited English culture.

          • Jack Cowell

            First of all, are you typing it as Moslems as some sort of nod to the past?

            I do not simply hope for the best. It seems a little strange for you to ask me to show you a peaceful Muslim (or Moslem, if you’re from the 1940’s), because my reply can only be, quite a few of my mates, who are all sound. They are Muslims, and they do not treat me as inferior, precisely because they read the Qu’ran as they choose, not as a book of hate, but as a source of inspiration.

            What of the Shia Muslims, the dominant religion in Iran (or Persia to you I suppose), who have been murdered by ISIS because they are heretics? They have been murdered because they maintain that Ali was the rightful successor to Mohammed, which leads the religion to reject Sunni Islams acceptance of religious rulers voted into power. On paper, to us, this religion seems to be much more fundamentalist, and yet Iran is a state going through an incredible phase of enlightenment, and ISIS thugs kill innocent people for holding these beliefs.

            Being a Muslims is not to be one religion, and it is not to necessarily be a hardliner. Can you be a member of the Labour party without being a full-blooded Trotskyite? Don’t bore me with any “the labour party is no longer left-wing” stuff, you know what my point is. Can you be a socialist without wanting to open up Gulags everywhere? Can you take aspects of ideologies that you like and meld them with another, without becoming an extreme version of either? You may not be able to, but most people can.

            The positive aspects come from the verses that call for charity, respect to God, respect to your parents, respect for peace, and respect for other religions: “…and nearest among them in love to the believers will you find those
            who say, ‘We are Christians,’ because amongst these are men devoted to
            learning and men who have renounced the world, and they are not
            arrogant” (5:82). There are passages that say awful things about non-belivers, but that is true of the Bible, and Christians choose to ignore those pieces.

          • Terry Field

            Why are we described as a liberal democracy. A democracy, yes. I am no liberal, and I am in very good company.

          • Jack Cowell

            That is the name given to our form of government, not to you, you utter imbecile. It refers to a state run by representative democracy, chosen by free and fair elections, which fundamentally seeks to protect the right of the individual. Whatever you think of yourself as, that is what the UK is. Ridiculous comment.

          • Terry Field

            You are the imbecile. You called it a liberal democracy; there are many forms of democracy. The terms are not mutually excluseve. You are the imbecile, and you are a bigot.
            The word libberal has no place in your description of the British form of democracy. It is an emotional appendage, designed to condition the mind. Like’progressive’ politics being the simle politics of the left. Nothing to do with progressive taxation, just the theft of the otherwise pleasnt sounding word – ‘progress’.
            You are a stupid, small minde leftie who covers his arrogance with apparent competence in understanding issues. You do not get the issues, since you live in a mental ghetto.

          • Jack Cowell

            Top response Terry. Glad to see you’re so sensitive to the use of words; if you would please justify your use of the word bigot against me, that would be excellent.

            Does it not get tiresome repeating obvious facts? I know there are lots of different types of democracy. We did them in school. There’s direct, similar to the Athenian model. Then there’s democratic aristocracy, not too dissimilar to the representative democracy of the UK (some mavericks may argue). Now that we’ve covered that, we both know that there are lots of different types of democracy, we can tackle your point.

            I think that the UK is INCREDIBLY dedicated to protecting the rights of individuals; you and me on this thread are proof of that, and your opinion on it does not effect the form of government we have. The state does not discriminate, it does not mess around with the micro-economy, it does its best to stay away from the economy in general, it tries to let people choose to a HUGE degree in their day to day lives. How is that not a liberal democracy?

            We were certainly a liberal democracy when Asquith was in power, and I think we have become much more liberal still since then. In fact, people like you are normally the first to complain about that fact! But, since you disagree so wholeheartedly, please explain why we are not a liberal society.

            Please do so with points, not weird paranoid slander about how commies are polluting the drinking water, appropriation of language, etc. Tell me 1) why we are not a liberal democracy, 2) why I am a bigot.

            This might help, assuming you can read better than you can compose a sentence: https://politicsforalevel.wordpress.com/tag/what-is-a-liberal-democracy/

          • Jack Cowell

            I know I called it that, do not tell me that as if I have gone back on myself. No they are not mutually exclusive; that is obvious. You can have democratic aristrocracy, or direct democracy, or the Athenian system, and so on. I have a degree in politics, don’t give me this patronising garbage.

            It is not an emotional appendage; it is the word we rightly use to describe this form of democracy. How is it not a liberal democracy? Explain.

            Most importantly, I demand that you explain how I am a bigot. Seeing as you are so sensitive to the use of certain words, you will oblige me.

          • Terry Field

            “I have a degree in politics:
            HA ha
            Utterly mediocre them.
            I assume you are petrol pump attendant or a corrupt lobby hack!
            You are a comedian without humour.

          • Jack Cowell

            Hahaha. Whatever mate. You don;t know from what Uni, to what level, or if it is my only degree (it isn’t). Like everyone who is bitter about their life, you love to put down degrees to make yourself feel better.

            What do you do for a living?

          • Terry Field

            Oh dear me.
            YOu cannot credibly puff your ‘universities’ – there are loads of mediocre ‘universities’ and some good ones.
            Nearly all of us in these columns has masters, doctorates, professional qualifications, roles of consequence, but that is the stuff that happens if you have any sort of brain and happen to be born into the first world. It is nothing spoecial. What IS special is the humility to rethink every time new information, new experience is encountered.
            Bitter about life. A joke, I would bet money on my education, my professional expertise and qualifications, my success in life – not only measured in money, although I would bet I could buy you out a dozen times over and still be more than comfortable.
            None of that matters.
            What matters is attempting to learn new stuff and trying to discern truth.
            You wont agree with that. It will not be your experience, I suspect.
            I do lotes of things. As for a living, I disconnected work and need many decades ago.

          • Jack Cowell

            Let me try to pin down exactly what you have taken issue with:

            Someone very patronisingly said “there are many types of democracy”, so I responded that I had a degree in politics and that they shouldn’t be so patronising.

            If someone gave me poor driving advice in a very patronising and dismissive way, I would respond “I have driven for 25 years you prat, don’t be so patronising in giving me bad advice.” You wouldn’t reason that I therefore thought my experience of driving was somehow unique or special, or that I thought that it made me particularly skillfull, so where has all of this you are not a beautiful snowflake stuff come from?

            I did not claim that University gave me a special experience, I did not claim that it marks me out as particularly intelligent, just that I studied a subject that has made me very familiar with that sort of thing. I didn’t say “dont be so patronising, I have a degree.” You’d love to assume that I’ some 20 year old know-it-all with a degree in media studies or something, and by all means, assume what you like.

            Say what you want about your successes, but you are justifying yourself to me, seems pretty insecure. How old do you think I am? What do you think I do for a living (or however you want to phrase it to suit your self-indulgent abstractions)?

          • Terry Field

            I explained in my early notes why I think your observations are at best irrelevant and at the worst a diversion.
            I simply diminish your self image by saying you are no different to the rest of us.
            And you are not.
            Except we are better.

          • Jack Cowell

            That’s quite the cop-out though isn’t it. You didn’t explain why you took such an issue with me saying that I had a politics degree, you explained why you took issue with me saying “I have a politics degree so I have had a special experience and I am better than you”, which I never said. I never once said anything that resembles “I’m better than you.”

            You were just being a prat and putting me into the little ‘student’ category you have in your head. You were seizing the opportunity to be like, ‘University? Pah, you think you’re so great? Look at me!’, which is just grim.

          • Sage Ham

            He is an islamic troll. If he really studies voluminously then he may be able to explain why islam has spread in evey country it entered and how the 30% Christian population of the middleeast has become 1%. Surely he will say willfull conversion or they migrated because they did not like the weather. What they West needs is an Alexander who knew how to deal with the gordian knot

          • Sage Ham

            About the only meaningful phrase in this post is “vast number of”. That is the question. Why vast?

          • Jack Cowell

            Look at your responses compared to Terry’s. Pitiful. Vast, as used here anyway, is a relative term, highlighting that it is a vast number who live in a law-abiding, orderly fashion, as opposed to the comparatively miniscule number who do not. But, if you would like clarity, the Mulsim population of Britain is just under 5%. Around 63% are Christian, and 20% identify as atheist. The rest is made up of Sikhs, Jews, Hindus, and some Jedis thrown in for good measure.

            Now, what, precisely, is your point little buddy? You’re making a lot of noise, and not responding to anything or making a point that helps anyone.

          • Sage Ham

            Your concern is touching. You will exploit British civility to the hilt- Like Tariq Ramadan does – and keep hammering.. which is good!. Two point. You little statistic is “snakey” as always. reported Muslim% is 5%. However it is estimated that up to 90% of the unknown category (8%) is Muslim. We on the ground, know what the Muslim immigrant answers when asked. At least 25% of the people that answer “no religion” – 23% of the population are estimated to be Muslim. Total ads up to 18% of the population. Just walk around Britain. Not add the birth rates and project his out of 20 years.
            If I were a Mooslem, My strategy will be to confuse and confound the debate till this 18% balloons till 30% after which the democratic process will be subverted. The reason why they are getting vocal is after 12% penetration coupled with a spineless local population means the take off has been reached

          • Jack Cowell

            We on the ground? I live in Manchester mate, I think I can see a good cross section of ethnic minority Britain. Estimated by whom by the way? Total mug you. And stop spelling it ‘Mooslem’, it’s weird. It doesn’t show you to be ‘standing against them’ as it were; it isn’t morally right to spell paedophile wrong, just stupid, and so it is with the word Muslim. You’re such a mug.

            You can add the birth rates; have you looked at the census? Or have you used the “estimates” of journalists? http://blogs.channel4.com/factcheck/factcheck-will-britain-have-a-muslim-majority-by-2050/13690 Read that.

            Finally, in response to your supposed point about subverting the democratic process: if an ethnic group reach 30% of a population and receive a suitable size of representation as a result, is that not the very definition of the democratic process?

            Spineless local population? You are an absolute mess. You are completely unable to grasp any of the points I have made on this comment thread, taking what I say to be a carte blanche defense of Islam and immigration policy in the UK. It is this stupidity that has led you to be in the position you are in; a powerless little mug.

          • Sage Ham

            Sorry. I am sure you get your kicks out you Arabic accuracy but I prefer mooslem as it was called earlier. An addional “o” for the new century. The data is from the CIA fact book and the estimation on the 8% unknown and the 25% “no religion” category are of course subjective but you can do the search.. Do you think mooslem immigrants or any fo rthat manner are coming here to answer all the question correctly?. Anyone who has haggled for a carpet in the middle-east knows what I am talking about. if you are in Manchester and you are defending mooslems with such gusto then you are not a spineless local but a fool.. unless of course you are a mooslem yourself. Stop trying to distract the obfuscate and confuse. Stick to the basics. I would rather be a honest mug dedicated to a free society and legacy for my kids than a third rate intellectual who let in the wolves to assuage some guilt or further the cause of an ummah.

          • Jack Cowell

            This is why you are so stupid, apart from your atrocious spelling and grammar:

            “if you are in Manchester and you are defending mooslems with such gusto” – You have read my arguments to be something more than logic and pragmatism. You want a legacy for your children? Then attack the actual problem and don’t be distracted by your romanticised notions of a holy war. Can you imagine if Western nations actually banned Islam simpliciter? Can you imagine the backlash, the loss of ethical standing, the security implications? You absolute child. You sit there and think of some glorious war, when you are just making things much worse with your useless hate.

            Also, I suppose our capital is called Londinium then, as it was originally called? Are you from Indochina? Get over yourself, you’re stupid, accept your place in the world.

            Explain: why am I a fool for following logic? Not all Muslims are fundamental extremists hell bent on destroying the west. People from insular communities, with little to no education, and a cultural disdain for Western life do tend to be a threat to our security. We should then focus on the latter and not make enemies out of the former.

            There is so much evidence that points to the fact that having a certain psychological profile is a much better predictor of joining or supporting, say, ISIS, than faith. Hence all those people who converted just before heading off to Syria; stupid, twisted kids won over by the latest rebellious and exciting ideology. We’ve done nationalism, we’ve done fascism, we’ve done communism, now it is Islamism. Grow up and w*nk off to Kingdom of Heaven if you want, but don’t bring your childish machinations into my society. Mug.

          • Sage Ham

            Again, thanks for your concern regarding my grammar. I doubt I can improve it further but will give it a shot. If I am from Indochina, what exactly is my place in the world?. You have an issue with Vietnamese yet I seem to recall them winning a war or two.
            I have read your arguments and deem them to be filled with calumny, double-speak and bull. I would have compared you to Chamberlain with your “Can you imagine the backlash, the loss of ethical standing, the security implications? You absolute child.”. Ohmygod!! priceless. What ethical standing are you going to have in 30 years. the same ethical standing the mighty Byzantine empire has today. What security implications are you safe against.- People are getting beheaded in the center of London, rapes, a population explosion, ISIS. Are you scared or are you trying to scare us?. History is made by societies that take decisive action. It is time we throw Chamberlains like you into the chamberpot!… Oh I liked that!

          • Jack Cowell

            For starters, I don’t really have a problem with the Vietnamese, you just argue like you are from there; ignoring what I actually say and reiterating the party line (that being whatever you want to say). I was asking if you were from Indochina to point out how stupid it is to call Muslims ‘Mooslems’ because that is how we used to write it. Vietnam used to be called Indochina, but it is now Vietnam, so we write Vietnam. Muslim is now written Muslims, so why write Mooslem? It is not clever to use an arcane spelling (let alone an incorrect one). It is a weak attempt at appearing knowledgable. Chruchill spelt it Moslem, but it he were writing now, he would write Muslim, because he wasn’t the fool that you are.

            “What security implications are you safe against. People are getting beheaded in the center of London, rapes, a population explosion, ISIS.” – I will ignore the paranoid rant part, and answer as best as I can; banning Islam would lead to more be-headings, more terrorist attacks, more hostility to the West in the Middle East, and diminished global security as a result. How to eliminate rape, the oldest crime in history, from society is beyond me I’m afraid, but I doubt the answer is to ban Islam. You are a complete and utter child.

            I have repeatedly quoted you and demanded that you explain yourself, and you have consistently failed, merely throwing more vague accusations at me. I demand that you explain this one, with quotes from what I have actually said:

            “I have read your arguments and deem them to be filled with calumny, double-speak and bull.” – Explain, with quotes.

            “I would have compared you to Chamberlain with your “Can you imagine the backlash…” – Exaplian why I am comparable to Chamberlain, who I would like to point out actually did something with his life, so you’re not one to be pointing fingers.

          • Sage Ham

            Indeed. You just indicated that as a Vietnamese, I should know my place. I am not from that country though I trully respect their spirit. I actually like to spell it Mooslems. So long as you understand the term what is your irritation. Not only are you bereft of any character, you seem to be bereft of friends to chat with too. I clearly explained why you are a liar and why I compared you to Chamberlain namely your continuous whining about how people will react against any censuring of Islam. No one can ban it. That is a silly concept. Don’t read too much into the comparison but no one can ban vermin. However one can accept that we have an issue and even make some of the them valued pets. Please read posts and introspect. You sound like someone who has got a basic training on how roll the web

          • Peter Simmons

            Going back several hundred years, yes Christianity was riven with schisms. It had an enlightenment, it developed, evolved into modern Christianity. Islam has done no such thing.Islam, as promoted by all those funded by the Saud camel-shaggers is Wahabism, the most extreme mysogenist version of a mysogenist cult. Our problem is that people with 8th century mindset have been invited by our political class to come to a country in the 21st century. There is nowhere in the New Testament that commands Christians to kill anyone, least of all children [‘suffer the little children to come unto me’, Jesus of Nazareth]. Islam on the other hand is packed with violence, urging followers to kill ‘like the prophet’ since he was a rampaging warlord who commanded his army to rape and kill all women and children in conquered cities. Go read some more, ‘Guest’. I’m glad you realise you are only a guest here.

      • Sage Ham

        + Jack Cowell – Your daughter is getting raped. You don’t do anything about it because someone from your town raped someone else some point of time. That is the “Crusades” argument. However i am sure you don’t have a child.
        The issue is not Muslims but the British them selves

    • Gwangi

      Yes, the BBC has stopped calling him British too – and now says English. Silly Scots Nationalists throwing a strop again. Of course, it is London and England that always bears the brunt of the mass immigration that the Scots nationalists so adore (though hardly any black faces in Scotland). Of course, they didn’t refer to the Islamists who attacked Glasgow airport as Scottish Muslims…but British…

      It is 100% clear from the voice and manner of the murderer of James Foley that this killer is black, from London (south maybe or south-east), probably Jamaican devout Christian stock, who got radicalised at college or university in London.

      • English Majority

        Exactly, Gwangi.

        This is why I radically support Scottish Independence. Total separation is absolutely vital now.

        They’re poison to us.

      • Damaris Tighe

        Could be Gwangi, but a lot of ‘yoof’ from asian backgrounds speak ghetto & thus can sound West Indian.

        • Gwangi

          Oh yes, I know that – dya get me, blud? I used to live in London so encountered quite a few wiggas and miggas (white and Muslim N words).
          But I combined my listening closely to the recording of this murderer with the picture – the eyes and skin around them is NOT Asian. It is black. Probably a Jamaican convert. Probably from south London, Probably went to college there – in Newham or Brixton or Hackney or Greenwich, and quite possibly to a local 4th rate university too, like Greenwich Uni or East London Uni (which let in anyone and are majority ethnic and which tolerate intolerant Islamic extremists recruiting on campus).
          I am actually amazed I have not heard any of this on TV or radio – and hope our security services are worth their salt. To me – with an English degree and having taught English and lived in London hearing accents every day – this is obvious.
          Want to ID this monster? Just look at the student rolls of those universities and look first at all black coverts to Islam in the Islamic societies. And/or check who has changed their name recently from some Jamaican or African one (Winston, Kwame etc) to an Islamic one (Abu Mohammed Al-Confused-dor-com – or whatever…) Easy.

          • Damaris Tighe

            These so-called ‘universities’ aka polytechnics have a lot to answer for. Converts are always the worst, aren’t they.

          • Gwangi

            Yes, and I would bet on this black bloke, sarf London thru and thru, to be a convert – probably from a strict Christian Jamaican or African family. Just like the 2 Michaels who killed Lee Rigby – both went to the University of Greenwich (formerly Thames Polytechnic, and with 60% ethnic student body) and were radicalised there – and really, we should start charging the managers and academics at these places with negligence and wilful neglect for their irresponsible complacency where Islamic extremism on campus is concerned.

          • Donafugata

            Quite.
            To be born into a religion is one thing, to actually choose to convert, especially to Islam, demonstrates a degree of psychopathology.

      • Keith D

        Rubbish. The Airport attackers were Iraqi. Not Scottish, not English, and like all Muslims, not British.

        • Gwangi

          So do you think Muslim Asians in Scotland are immune from being radicalised then? Maybe you have enough extremists already what with racist SNP nuts and sectarian hatred between prods and papists?
          Well, you don’t have many Muslims there of course – despite the SNP praising immigrants it expects all the Thirdworlders to live in London, it seems…

          • Keith D

            Am no fan of the SNP. Or Scottish Muslims. In fact, with the coming conflict we need to stand united. It was merely your comment was inaccurate.

          • Gwangi

            OK fair enough. I look forward to Scotland producing homegrown Islamic nutters – maybe we can send any new Muslim immigrants up there from London eh?
            Then will the BBC refer to them as Scottish terrorists? Like they have started referring to the barbarian who beheaded Foley as English and not British?

          • Keith D

            Homegrown Islamic nutters up there tend to get a kick in the haw maws. Its a disgrace these Muslim barbarians are referred to as English, British or wherever it is has the misfortune to have issued the inadequate no marks a passport. Muslim savages is quite descriptive enough.

    • Ludo

      But they are British.

      They might not be British like you and me, but they are the product of British values, in as much as Britain acquiesced in their development.

    • Kaine

      Christianity is “totally foreign” to this island too. I take it you worship good Anglo-Saxon deities like Wotan? Or perhaps a Celtic goddess like Brigid?

    • Jack Cowell

      Hahahaha. That is just absurd. English working class people are referred to as ‘far-right’ when their views are far-right. If they are far-left, then they are reported as such. If they don’t have extreme views, why would that be reported? To think the way you do is specious in the extreme, and you’d make the worst news editor imaginable.

      But the guy in the video was a British citizen? Are you suggesting that they shouldn’t have mentioned that? Is that not interesting news? Total idiot you man.

      They’re not ‘democratically unwanted’, especially not in our Constitutional Monarchy. Not even sure what you mean by that. That they’re unwanted by democracy itself? Because Islamic scholars preserved Greek political thought while we went through the dark ages, and then engaged European thinkers, starting the renaissance. Do you mean that most people don’t want them? That’s just a lie. Maybe you and your mates don’t, but not everyone shares your view.

    • Col McGillveray

      I wholeheartedly agree. That fellow most definitely had an English accent.

    • Terry Field

      But the British government and the BBC ALWAYS calls them British fighters – so they MUST be mustn’t they!!!!!!

    • colchar

      While I loath the way that the establishment in Britain crawls to Muslims, to say that calling someone an English Jihadist is savage violence and terrorism against the English people is ridiculous. If you want your arguments to be taken seriously, try making them without resorting to ridiculous hyperbole.

  • Richard Young

    We could make a redemptive start by sending Straw and Blair to the Hague.The thought that the fruits of their loins are being foisted on us makes me shudder.

  • English Majority

    There need not be so-called experts droning on.

    The answer to it all is VERY simple:

    Multiculturalism and immigration has BADLY failed. We now have millions upon millions of Muslims, Indians and blacks who identify with their foreign homelands/cultures more than they do ours.

    And, because of the violently massive financial costs of multiculturalism and immigration: most Muslims/blacks claim huge benefits, and non-Whites in general have taken millions of social housing meant for English people, everything is collapsing, and the foreigners are aggressively fighting us for our own resources.

    And, said foreigners have forced the total destruction of our British/English identity and culture. They’re now taking full advantage of this, and are determined to install their own foreign rule here.

  • Cheradenine

    The BBC is actually interviewing ISIS supporters and letting them expound their point of view as if it was part of the normal range of public opinion.

    http://diversitymachtfrei.blogspot.co.uk/2014/08/bbc-allows-islamic-nutjob-on-to-explain.html

  • Jack Cowell

    Excellent article. I would be thrilled if the author answered, but this is definitely an open question to anyone:

    What is a realistic solution to the impending backlash against Britain, and against Europe more widely?

    • Mike

      Ban Islam. Through its scriptures and the actions of some of its followers, it is a terrorist organization, not a peaceful religion and as such, we already have legislation to ban any organization that that promotes hate.

      • Jack Cowell

        I don’t think that is a workable solution. It is not one religion, and banning it requires a commitment to logic that means we must ban Christianity, because some are fundamentalist lunatics; how many US murders occur each year because ‘God’ told them to do it?

        Also, banning a religion would just push it into a sub-culture, increasing its allure to impressionable elements seeing its more adulterated versions as in some way rebellious.

        • Asquith

          What’s your suggestion Jack? What if the Nazi’s had been banned – wouldn’t it have helped?

          • Jack Cowell

            Not really sure how you can compare the two. The Nazi party were banned, so they re-organised under a different name.

            Banning a religion as fractious as Islam is unworkable: Sufis do not see themselves as the same religion as Ahmadiyya Muslims, Sunnis do not see themselves the same as Shia. You could ban the word but the faith would stay the same. Much as the beliefs of Adolf Hitler were not changed by prison or a ban on the party. Not that I agree that the two are comparable.

  • Big Mouth John

    Oxford street in London has daily ISIS leaflet recruitment and it’t legal

    then they let them back in

    • http://twitter.com/WinstonCDN WinstonCDN

      Strip of their citizenship and deport them

  • Big Mouth John

    britain has been supporting the wrong side for ages

    while muslim countries where throwing out their terrorists and banning terorrist organizations, the UK welcomed them with open arms!

    the Muslim Brotherhood, the copt killers and church burners, are illegal in Egypt, but have offices in Kilburn! Their offshoot is Hamas, which the UK supports financially through british charities and tax payers’ money.

    only the stupidest of all, think that appeasing terorrists will make them like you and not want to kill you. The world of a cockroach is worth more than the word of a terrorist, and cockroaches don’t even have vocal cords.

    • http://twitter.com/WinstonCDN WinstonCDN

      Don’t forget the Iranian ayatollahs’ offices in the UK.

  • Roy

    As an older Britisher I am utterly disgusted by the present incumbents holding political power in Britain. To think they allow new found residents, or born of new found residents to the country, to sneak out and fight for the blood thirsty rogues of the middle east. These utterly misguided rag-bags should never in a million years be allowed to return to the UK or ever call themselves British ever again. How abysmally devoid of thought or principal the country has managed to descended to such pits of morality to own such sons of the devil, is unfortunately a mark of the tasteless decisions of the ruling clowns at the head of this country. They know these hordes of undisciplined immigrants are not compatible with the British way of life yet still they continue to allow them entry. In fact they subsidize their very existence. Westminster and its decision makers have a lot to answer for.

    • Daniel C. Thompson

      And what do you stand for? Sweeping, ugly racist generalisations.

      • lookout

        I’d rather have Roy than you minding our borders

      • mohdanga

        Yup, again, it’s racist to state facts about minorities. Maybe the English are fed up being told how ‘diversity’ and ‘enrichment’ are good for them, not having control over the future of THEIR country, being charged with ‘racial incitement’ for stating an opinion, being cowed into silence because of the threat of being a ‘racist’, watching their neighbourhoods being overrun with enrichers, all while the elite sit back and allow it.

  • sebastian2

    I think Douglas has expressed this brilliantly. Little more to add. A huge amount more to do. Is our pussyfooting Government up to the task? I think we may be about to find out during the coming months.

  • Hippograd

    Rather it is the continuation of an entirely foreseeable trend.

    Yes. Foreseen in 1968 by the despicable racist Enoch Powell:

    We must be mad, literally mad, as a nation to be permitting the annual
    inflow of some 50,000 dependants, who are for the most part the material
    of the future growth of the immigrant descended population. It is like
    watching a nation busily engaged in heaping up its own funeral pyre.
    So insane are we that we actually permit unmarried persons to immigrate
    for the purpose of founding a family with spouses and fiancées whom
    they have never seen. Foresight by a despicable racist

    It has been much more than 50,000 in recent years. Powell didn’t, as far as I know, identify Islam as a particular danger, but the despicable Islamophobe Hilaire Belloc did:

    Islam survives. Its religion is intact; therefore its material strength may return. Our religion is in peril, and who can be confident in the continued skill, let alone the continued obedience, of those who make and work our machines? … There is with us a complete chaos in religious doctrine…. We worship ourselves, we worship the nation; or we worship (some few of us) a particular economic arrangement believed to be the satisfaction of social justice…. Islam has not suffered this spiritual decline; and in the contrast between [our religious chaos and Islam’s] religious certitudes still strong throughout the Mohammedan world lies our peril. Belloc on Islam

    He wrote that in 1937. Immigration from the Third World was never going to work out well. That goes double for immigration from Muslim nations.

    • Malcolm Stevas

      Absolutely right. One of the more shameful episodes in recent UK political life was the casting out of Enoch Powell, and the nervousness of the current Conservative Party every time his name is mentioned. He committed the ultimate crime of speaking the truth, and being vindicated subsequently, while his detractors’ cowardice and unpatriotic indifference are highlighted.

      • Hippograd

        Truth is not a route to success in politics. Powell had the support of the majority, and especially of the working class. So apparently the UK isn’t a democracy, because the majority didn’t get its way on the most important political question of all.

    • Cheradenine

      Powell also made this prophetic remark:

      It is by ‘black Power’ that the headlines are caught, and under the shape of the negro that the consequences for Britain of immigration and what is miscalled ‘race’ are popularly depicted. Yet it is more truly when he looks into the eyes of Asia that the Englishman comes face to face with those who will dispute with him the possession of his native land.

      • Hippograd

        Thanks. I don’t know as much about Powell’s writing as I should and that’s a good quote.

    • Daniel C. Thompson

      I am so tired of this racist tripe. First off, you are grossly exaggerating problems with a minority of immigrants. Secondly, what is your long-term vision? I’ll tell you what it is: Damn depressing. You yearn for a world where people are fenced in according to skin colour or faith or ethnicity. How endlessly limiting. This planet is huge. I want to explore it. I want to be able to settle wherever I please, and I want everyone else to enjoy the same opportunity. I don’t want to be told I can’t go places because of my skin colour or heritage or whatever. And I don’t want others to be told that either.

      • Malcolm Stevas

        Bit of your own gross exaggeration there. You may well wish to “settle wherever [you] please” but don’t expect the natives necessarily to welcome you with open arms and no admission criteria.
        This ought to apply in our own country – which is what I assumed Hippograd was saying. Nothing remotely to do with world-wide ethnic pigeonholing, as you suggest so wildly.

        • Daniel C. Thompson

          I’m guessing you missed the racist quotes. Besides, what gives anyone the right to be the gatekeeper to a land area, simply because they were born there? It is an absurd concept, and a desperately depressing and limiting one too.

          • excel

            Try telling that to the Palestinians!

          • Malcolm Stevas

            “Racist quotes” – ? Weird. Your denigration of the nation state is intriguing but won’t get you many adherents. Next you’ll be telling us that all property is theft – or something else you’ve found in Anarchism For Dummies.

          • Daniel C. Thompson

            Yeah, racist quotes. They are still there, but you obviously prefer not to see them.

          • Malcolm Stevas

            Powell & Belloc were worth half a dozen of you any day: using the facile but modish “racist” smear against them underlines your vapid immaturity.

          • mohdanga

            So now it is ‘racist’ (when did Islam become a race?) to state facts which every day are shown to be true about Islam and its peaceful adherents?? If you think there are no problems with the ‘minority of immigrants’ in the UK and other Western countries you are deluded. Try Googling the enriching behaviour of Muslims in France, Belgium, Denmark, Sweden, Norway, the evidence is right there.

          • mohdanga

            “Besides, what gives anyone the right to be the gatekeeper to a land area, simply because they were born there? It is an absurd concept, and a desperately depressing and limiting one too.”
            This has to be one of the dopiest, ludicrous statements ever posted. Yes, throw the gates wide open, no restrictions, I’m sure the standard of living you are accustomed to would not be affected. The modern nation state is based on common culture, language and customs….people prefer to be with their own. Why should the 3rd world sh*thole of Somalia be allowed to fester in the UK?? You may want to see many different places and are certainly entitled to travel there but I’m sure the locals would be less than enamoured by your ‘right’ to stay there without their approval.

          • Kevin T

            Here is the problem. Naive, clueless upper and middle class boys and girls who have decided to believe that all cultures are equal (although white, western culture is probably worse than the others actually!). Regardless of the glaring evidence that huge parts of the world are hundreds of years behind us and their cultures, based on medieval religious laws, are fundamentally incompatible with ours. But, like religious zealots, you just can’t accept anything that contradicts your dogma, and besides, anyone who would be against your lovely, fluffy diversity must be a racist, hey?

          • Damaris Tighe

            BECAUSE IT’S THEIR HOME & they have every right to determine who should come over the threshold & live with them.

          • Baron

            Your idea of a borderless world would be OK if everyone followed it, but not everyone does, you go settle in (say) Saudi Arabia, the Gaza strip, the IS territory, talk, behave, live as you do here, then tell us how’s it’s going.

          • Lamia

            what gives anyone the right to be the gatekeeper to a land area, simply because they were born there?

            The simple fact that they were born here, cretin. It’s called the right to national self-determination. We get to choose who rules us and who is allowed to join us.

      • lookout

        That’s fine, do you intend, in your chosen country, to radicalize your neighbours, rape the indigenous, bomb the local transport, decapitate one of the local military and support a terrorist organization that’s engaged in a racial war in the middle-east and seek to establish a religion based on the worship of the moon God ie Satan, see walid shoebat.com

      • Kevin T

        So go and travel. Who is stopping you? How does anything you said justify mass immigration on an enormous scale, including from some of the most backward and dangerous parts of the world, with little or no discrimination about who gets in?

      • Hippograd

        You’re typical of the left, i.e. you’re a adolescent narcissist who wants the world to conform to his emotions. Look how many times you use the word “I” and refer to your feelings. Isn’t it “depressing” that mass immigration has produced so many pathologies? So let’s pretend otherwise and make the eventual disaster even worse. At least Blair has made millions from his adolescent narcissism.

  • elaineland

    “In a democracy, the immigrants you allow in will be your future rulers. Choose wisely.” ~ Eugene Volokh

  • TRAV1S

    I seem to remember Labour’s Ken Livingston promised to make London a beacon of Islam. Well it is now. Isn’t diversity so enriching?

    • Terry Field

      He is insane. As are Labour Party supporters generally. BUT he and they are also extremely dangerous.

  • Gwangi

    All utterly predictable – and all a result of the pandering to Muslims (and anyone with a dark skin and a religion) by the so-called liberals who have tolerated those from intolerant cultures and religions for decades.
    From the video footage and my analysis of this man’s voice, I can say that:
    1) he is from London, probably south or east London, maybe south-east;
    2) he is a black Jamaican convert to Islam (his real name’s probably Keith or something, though now no doubt he is Abu Mohammed Bin Al-Bonkers or somert…);
    3) he was almost certainly radicalised at a London college or university (where recruiters for Islamic extremism are seen as a vibrant and diverse presence which enriches campus life) just check the member lists of Islamic societies at places such as Newham College or Greenwich University, and you’ll find your man. Probably dropped out – like the two black covert Michaels who killed Lee Rigby.

  • http://twitter.com/WinstonCDN WinstonCDN

    Four decades of really misguided and naive immigration policies have turned Europe and especially the UK into the largest Islamic state in the world after the middle-east. What were you Britons thinking???

    • edithgrove

      Europe wasn’t thinking, it was cheap labour, doing the jobs locals didn’t want, dressed up by those who benefitted and the naive as kindness and tolerance. Isn’t Canada in the same boat, I heard it was?

      • http://twitter.com/WinstonCDN WinstonCDN

        Canada is in the same boat of course. Two decades of liberal leadership and lax immigration laws destroyed Canada.

    • Malcolm Stevas

      I’ve visited Canada a few times, including Toronto. You’re not exactly short of Muslims yourselves. Do you think you’re handling it better than us?

      • http://twitter.com/WinstonCDN WinstonCDN

        No. We’re there and we’ve a huge case of Islamist agitators here too. You’re right.

  • jesseventura2

    And the British draw bridge still down allowing these vermin to enter?
    Will Cameron stop the vermin returning?
    Do we really want to be swamped by peoples of an alien culture?
    No Margaret Thatcher but we have by low life dogs called politicians.

  • Mike

    “Some day the chickens will come home to roost” — Its already happened but the left wing progressives refuse to believe it. Fifteen months ago we saw the slaughter of Lee Rigby by a couple of known Islamic psychos and since then we’ve seen militant Islam embolden itself with flying ‘terrorist’ flags, rioting in Tescos and all manner of hate crimes against British Jews.

    For goodness sakes, just how much more evidence does Cameron and the western leaders need to recognize an immediate threat just a few inches from their faces. Islam is the problem due to moderate Muslims looking the other way and singing a La,La,La chant like chastised kids sent to their room whilst Islamofascists get bolder and bolder.

    Only Israel is sending a clear message to the terrorists that threaten them and the west and its time we all got on board and crushed these animals. What ever it takes, just bomb the s*** out of them and to hell with the left and their bleating !

  • Advocatus_Diaboli_69

    Great tongue in cheek letter from Hamas to ISIS. It contains many important points and cross links to back them up. I’ve haven’t check them all but you get the general idea from the tone of the letter.

    http://www.thecommentator.com/article/5177/hamas_sends_a_love_letter_to_isis_with_10_tips

  • Roy

    These boys, termed “our boys” are nothing to do with me, and have nothing to do with the civilized people of these British Isle. It’s time our so-called leaders did some leading and booted out the scum that has been allowed to grow and prosper here for no apparent reason other than insanity.

    • Marie Louise Noonan

      You’re assuming that our ‘leaders’ actually give two hoots one way or the other.

      Call me a cynic but I’m not sure they do.

  • Barry Evans

    “We will never stop striving until the black flag of Islam is all over
    the world”. This link to a video of a counter demonstration to an
    anti-Sharia Law protest filmed in Whitehall opposite 10 Downing
    Street in 2010 shows the black flag of Islam is nothing new in
    London:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bpnslztTVGY

  • GenJackRipper

    “Our boys”

    Do you really identify with people that may hold a british passport but hate Britain and it’s people?

    Oh the folly of multiculturalism…

  • Augustus

    “Our boys” are our enemies. The knife that cut off Foley’s head wants to cut off the head of the West. But the West still doesn’t get it. And that goes for all Islamic militants wherever they were born, and whichever military wing of Islam they’re fighting in.

  • Terry Field

    There are many lies that underpin the ‘surprise of the revealed horror.
    The first lie is that British governments have not actively supported radial and accurate Islam. The New Labour catastrophe full supported Islam and systematically protected all moslems in Britain from the action of the Law. A significant example: a small number of sex-exploiter who are moslem were prosecuted in Oxford – guilty of the abuse of kufar women described as being ‘less than pigs’.
    A previos most senior government law officer stated that over eighty -eighty – similar possible offenders are known to the police and have been cautioned. WHy have they not been before the courts? The numbers of kufar girls exploited , and the number of moslem exploiters must number in the thousands and the many tens of thousands, respectively, if one multiples the numbers up.
    No proceedings?No convictions?
    WHy? Because the Sate – composed of Civil Servants entirely wedded to the New Labour ‘celebrate the difference’ fantasy, and hoping fervently for a Labour victory at the next election, systematically protect these criminals and their unspeakable beliefs. How many of these Civil servants are themselves moslem?
    WHy does this matter – simple – it speaks not of a happy clappy moslem majority damaged by a few inexplicable ‘radicals’ (what a stupidly annoying yet clever word designed to confuse the population) but of a moslem ‘community’ – to apply the sickening modern jargon – that is fully barbaric, arrogantly isolated from the host culture, utterly foreign, and capable of deliberately damaging vast numbers of the daughters of the broad society.
    Let us look at the numbers who go abroad to kill those they dis-agree with. Some say 1500, some say vastly more. The Border Agency, a Home Office fantasy centre of utter incompetence – knows nothing. They have no data. It is possible enormous numbers have gone or are in the process of going.
    SO have they been ‘radicalised’ by a fer internet Sheikhs?
    COuld you or I be so rqdicalised?
    The answer is a simple one, and a disaster for Britan and the government of this centre of terror.
    They can be radicalised, because:
    1 They are taught the Koran from almost birth. It is clear as a bell about the three stages of Jihad. They know the stuff and the ‘radicalising’ simply directs them to the relevant texts.
    2 Massive numbers of Moslems are supporter of Jihad, and the actions of these young killers.
    3 As an Iraqi immigrant said once only on a live british tv report (to the horror of the reporter) – the mosques of Britain are radical, and act to condition the moslem population. He said with feeling that the mosques re dangerous and should be closed down. The BBC cut the interview from ALL subsequent broadcasts – if the BBC were not a state broadcasting propaganda entity, it would have blasted the interview over the airwaves.
    It buried the Iraqi comments.
    The Home Office had done its work.
    The nexus between the ‘celebrate the differnce’ true believers in the BBC, the Civil Service and the Labour Party is still so powerful that the terror culture is fully protected.
    The Conservative government must be unaware of this or it would act to de-politicise the Civil Service – or it may be complicit.
    The United States may be unaware – but I suspect it is beginning to see the true nature of its British ‘Ally’.
    4 There is a primary loyalty of British moslems – not to Britain but tho the religion, and often overlaid by loyalty to the country of origin – often Pakistan.

  • Kevin T

    Of all the awful things the left has done to our country and it’s culture, mass immigration, multiculturalism and diversity are by far the worst. This is only the beginning of their adverse effects.

  • Lord Chasm

    You utter fools you have ruined your country.

    • Terry Field

      Yes.

    • Marie Louise Noonan

      ‘You utter fools you have ruined your country.’§

      Have they bombed a Marathon yet?

  • MichaelSWithers

    British Muslim is an oxymoron.

    • Terry Field

      Leave out the oxy

  • Advocatus_Diaboli_69

    Peaceful coexistence within a diverse, multicultural society only works if everyone involved accepts the basic founding premise i.e. that everyone, all cultures, and every religion, have equal rights and are deserving of equal respect even (and especially) if you disagree with them

    This idea has failed because conservative and extremist Islam regards all others not of its kind as decadent and inferior.

    The BBC and other western media organisations are so indoctrinated with the delusion of delightful diversity that they think we can sort all problems out by getting people into a studio for a discussion. It’s the media equivalent of sorting out our differences over a sit down and a nice cup of tea.

    Twice now we’ve seen supporters of the beheaders abroad given air time during BBC discussions to promote their support for the caliphate, and countless times before we’ve had to endure Choudhary’s Islamist preaching on our airwaves and TV screens.

    You can no more rationalise nor reason with an Islamist than a Jew could rationalise with an SS officer in a death camp. They want us converted, dead or enslaved. Ask the Yazidis if you have any doubts about this.

    So it’s time we stopped inviting Islamists into the studios for cosy chats and ostracised them completely. We should also stop sharing photos and videos of the killings as they thrive on publicity. Cut off the oxygen and hunt down those who promote their evil doctrine. They have forfeited all rights extended to those who are privileged to hold a British passport.

    • Terry Field

      What you suggest is welcome but nowhere near enough. Nowhere near.

    • Marie Louise Noonan

      Do we not have laws against treason still on the statute books?

      What’s the point in laws if they are not implemented?

  • Thaddeus lovelock

    Culture and race are two very different, things, and sometimes people conflate them, together.

  • Thaddeus lovelock

    People often talk about the white race, but there is no racial category, called white. There is however Caucasian, which embraces, Indians and people from the middle east.

    • Terry Field

      Says whose classification?
      Of what worth is a classification that is manifestly and so obviously absurd?

  • Suzy61

    “Our boys..” please, please. A dog born in a stable is not a horse. These so called ‘jihadis’ are abject failures. Despite the advantages of a western upbringing/education they will attain nothing…so they seek glory in violence as they are too dim-witted for anything else. Please, do not call them British and and certainly not “our boys”.

    • Marie Louise Noonan

      And it’s an insult to our real boys.

  • John Cronin

    As ever, Murray does excellent work in pointing the sort of stuff that most other journos ignore in their cowardice. Andrew Gilligan is another. But, without wishing to post anything which is gonna get me arrested, what exactly are we going to do? If I was one of the whites left in Tower Hamlets or inner city Bradford, I’d be looking for guns for self defence.

    • Terry Field

      WHo will arrest you? Plod? the Home Office thought-police????

      • John Cronin

        either of the above. Incidentally, google in Charlene Downes of Blackpool.

        • Terry Field

          Their problem would be a simple one.
          The whole country is rapidly becoming aware of the reality of the internal Islamic threat and danger.
          Who would they imprison – the entire country? And to prosecute, they would be forced to have the court reporters publicise the very views they wish to have suppressed.
          The real sadness here is that Britain is now as controlled, as untruthful, and as exploitative of its population as was the Soviet Union.

        • Suzy61

          Charlene Downes…a real life lamb to the slaughter of political correctness. Let down by everybody. Poor Child.

  • Half Truth Half Right

    It’s often said to Muslims in the West that if you want to have your Sharia Law, then go back to where you came from and create your own Caliphate, and when they do exactly that, the West still has problems with them and goes out of its way to bomb them there. So why the hypocrisy?

    • Terry Field

      Will they take their families, friends, acquaintances, associates, fellow workers and all the others. If so We will all be relieved beyond words.

      • Half Truth Half Right

        But you are bombing them so they can head back West though

        • Terry Field

          Bombing them is an error. They cannot be stopped now.

      • Marie Louise Noonan

        All of them? Even the seemingly mild mannered nurses who work along side my mother.

        Oh never mind, they’re probably fifth columnists anyway.

        • Terry Field

          You ether take the islamic cultural competition seriously or you do not.
          You either wish your civilisation to continue or you do not. Does your thinking not go beyond observing some nurses seem mild-mannered?

          • Marie Louise Noonan

            I said seemingly, didn’t I.

            Do you have any practical measures in mind?

            The EDL tried but they were dismissed as a bunch of working class oils. Enoch Powell tried but he was dismissed and derided and demonised by our ‘media’.

            And he still is.

            (personally, I see much of the mainstream media as controlled opposition a la Emmanuel Goldstein in ‘1984.)

          • Terry Field

            I doubt there will be social awareness or political will unless there are other enormous outrages as with 7/7 or 9/11. Pray they do not happen.
            If they do, I consider the Middle East is a place the non-islamic world should not go. Buy hydrocarbons there and leave it at that.
            Similarly, the West is a place where Islam has absolutely no place.
            None at all.
            Policy should be adjusted to achieve tat desirable goal. The details are for politicians.
            At that point new ideas, new politicians and new politicians – hopefully real statesmen not the gutless perverse party hacks we have suffered for the last few decades, and still labour under.
            We need to recover a memory of our relationship with Islam over the last 1200 years or so. We need to remember its actions; what we had to do to keep it at bay. If we do not, the actions of Islam to utterly change our lives makes the threat of Communism utterly inconsequential.
            Britain and its mindset has been forced up a blind alley for half a century. Dangerous race hate forces are growing in Britain, largely because of the influence of the Islamic barbarism.

            It is five to midnight in Britian. The game is up.

    • yyarko

      I agree.
      The west should not have any problem with the formation of the new Caliphate. However, the west should have a problem with the persecution and massacre of religious minorities in that Caliphate.
      Unfortunately, I don’t believe Britain is concerned about that.
      What troubles Britain is the prospect of these fighters returning home – in an effort to make Britain a part of the new Caliphate.
      May I remind you – Islam sees world domination as its ultimate goal…

  • Ludo

    Thanks for the video, gents.

    My take on this is that we need an end to faith schooling and we need to stop pandering to religion. The erroneous claims of Islamophia fired like a gattling gun at anyone who cherishes British values need to be fired back with interest from a much bigger gun. Sooner rather than later our elected representatives will have to take this problem seriously and create a secular state to give us the structure to defend liberal freedoms that we seem unable to defend under the current system of genuflection.

  • ohforheavensake

    Couple of points: both of the wider figures you quote are unreliable (it could be considerably fewer than 4,000, for example); and in the part of the Middle East where the figures are more reliable- Syria- the UK isn’t the leading exporter of jihad. There are c.400 Britons fighting for extremists in Syria- which is the same number of people as Belgium.

    • Kevin T

      Oh well that’s all right then. Jesus Christ.

  • tigerlily

    It’ll get worse before it gets better (if it ever does). Most people are still not paying attention.

  • CortUK

    Who’d have thought that importing a million Islamists from the mountains of northern Pakistan and letting them practice their mediaeval religion and segregate themselves from the rest of society would end badly?

    How’s that multi-culturalism things working out, liberals of the UK?

    • Marie Louise Noonan

      We should at least make the effort to convert them to a non-mediaeval religion.

      Scientology maybe.

      • English Majority

        Or MassDeportationism.

        In huge numbers.

    • red2black

      It seems to be working out about as well as allowing a massive influx of unskilled workers into the UK in order to create a low-wage service-based economy, such as the one we now have. Anyone below shareholder level is no longer of any real interest to any of the mainstream political parties.

  • Jackthesmilingblack

    Our boys, over there…
    Looks as though Douglas the neocon has given jingoism a whole new dimension.

    • Marie Louise Noonan

      I think it’s called sarcasm.

  • Marie Louise Noonan

    Maybe you should write about Our real Boys: the gentlemen of the armed forces.

  • Mick Norris

    UK is capital of global jihadi export, has been since 2001 and continues today.

    You can blame the British as they have created a culture where lopping peoples heads of is ok if they are American or Jews.

    • thomasaikenhead

      Mick,

      Utter tosh!

      The UK has a very long and honourable tradition of permitting large-scale immigration and has done for centuries, in fact it predates the creation of the UK!

      This has been accompanied by acceptance of monarch from a variety of backgrounds including the Welsh, (Tudors), the Scots (Stuarts), the Dutch (King William) and a variety of Germans (Hanoverians and Saxe-Coburg-Gotha).

      To say that British culture accepts the beheading of Jews and US citizens is simply absurd.

  • thomasaikenhead

    Nothing new here, there is a long tradition of those raised in the UK or involved with the British military turning against the country, Roger Casement and Zeev Jabotinsky to name but two in the last century.

    In modern times it is not the more recent Muslim extremists that will define the foreign policy of the UK but the vastly more numerous moderate Muslims who live in the UK.

    It is these people who are increasingly involved in protest politics such as demonstrations and the BDS movement.

    Given their concentration in certain districts they are key marginal voters and the mainstream political parties will find that their conduct and the voting records of their elected representatives whether at a local (councillors) or national (MPs) or European level (MEPs) subjected to ever-increasing scrutiny.

    Whether the issue is the continued export of arms or dual-purpose equipment to Israel where it might be utilised b the IDF to conduct operations in Gaza or using the British military in offensive wars against Muslim countries such as Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria and Libya, these moderate Muslims will no longer remain silent and passive.

    Given the mass immigration to the UK in the last few decades, there are millions of such voters and their interests can no longer be ignored by the major political parties.

    Combined with the rise and rise of UKIP, this places the three main parties, but nmost especially the Conservative Party whose leader, David Cameron, is a leading member of the Conservative Friends of Israel, in a difficult position.

    If they try to counter UKIP by moving to the right they will arose the enmity of the millions of Muslim voters who are vital to a Conservative victory at the next national election.

    Te most likely outcome is continuing to profess support for Israel but having to curtail arms exports and speaking out against groups such as the Islamic state but not actually undertaking any more foreign military adventures.

    Fortunately for them, this current situation will only persist for a few more years as the West will disengage from central Asia when troops leave Afghanistan, the US only provide air strikes in Iraq and remain out of Syria while pursuing negotiations rather than a ‘military option’ with regard to Iran.

    The reason for the US withdrawal from the Middle East is simple, fracking. As the US is now energy self-sufficient, the oilfields of the Middle East are no longer a vital strategic interest, indeed the US will overtake Saudi Arabia in the next decade as the leading world producer of oil and will repeal current legislation and begin exporting.

    Anyone expecting the President who replaces Obama to active engage in an aggressive foreign policy particularly with regard to the Middle East will be sorely disappointed.

    .

    • Mike

      I agree, America can provide its own energy needs and Europe could but at some cost, and isolating the middle east would do far more to solve the current problems than getting involved.

      Without anyone to buy their oil, they wont have adequate supplies of water for irrigation or growing food for their people and when that happens, Islam will implode and the problem will be solved. Sure, thousands will probably die but they are doing so right now.

      Certain regions of the world cannot self govern in a democratic manner and we should leave them to own devices what ever the consequences to themselves, as they don’t want our intervention.

  • Stuart Ben Smith

    To start with, the U.K. should outlaw Halal meat, and all religious slaughter, at the same time ban the wearing of the Burka, anywhere in public in the U.K.
    It may sound petty but it is a start in telling these islamisists that they must live in a country with laws, and we will not pander to their way of life of continually salami slicing at our way of life, want to live here live like us or get out.

    • Mike

      I agree, thats the whole point.

      Just as kids will push the envelope when their parents don’t control them, many of those of the Islamic faith do exactly the same and having gained one concession, they push for another, and another and another.

      Banning the burka and Halal meet would send the same message to these militants as ‘time out’ or go to your bedroom without a TV for misbehaving kids. In a very real sense, these jihadists are nothing more than spoiled psychos but because they are dangerous, they need to be kicked out or dumped on some uninhabited UK island or territory.

  • https://sites.google.com/site/deanjackson60/home Dean Jackson

    “Last year, two converts decapitated Drummer Lee Rigby in broad daylight in south London.”

    You mean the two MI5 agents who supposedly nearly severed Rigby’s head which failed to pour copious amounts of blood on the sidewalk, then one of the “converts” gives his little speech to (1) a passerby who calmly records the diatribe on his video phone; and (2) doesn’t run away for dear life as the “convert” approaches.

    In fact, there were pools of blood on the sidewalk–AFTER the armed police arrived at the scene five-minutes late, by the way, the tardy arrival allowing for the video message.

    What better proof of the West’s co-option by Marxist’s than The Spectator posting such rubbish, enabling the West to continue to lose prominence by championing chaos wherever Moscow & Allies task Western nations to invade.

    • pedestrianblogger

      Haha! Very good parody of a “false flag” conspiracy fruit-cake post. You are to be congratulated.

      • https://sites.google.com/site/deanjackson60/home Dean Jackson

        “Haha! Very good parody of a “false flag” conspiracy fruit-cake post. You are to be congratulated.”

        I agree, MI5 just isn’t what it used to be.

    • Mike

      Pathetic !

      • https://sites.google.com/site/deanjackson60/home Dean Jackson

        “Pathetic !”

        Isn’t it.

        So, what are you going to do about MI5 using your tax monies in such a fashion?

  • tolpuddle1

    Glad you like our globalised world, Douglas.

    Thank Capitalism for it, not juvenile jihadis from British Islam.

    • http://rielouise.wordpress.com Marie Louise Noonan

      I would imagine that it’s an unholy alliance of many things, including the two factors you mention.

  • Picquet

    The perpetrators of this atrocity are, of course, among us now. One of them is, in fact, to be found in the Office of the Quartet Representative, whose supposed responsibilities are not very far from this very problem. His duty however, as he sees it, is solely to himself and his current account. Perhaps we can advertise for an experienced head-hunter to take care of this particular traitor.

  • Richard

    Sensible measures against these challenges in the UK would simply be struck down by our judges under Human Rights laws.

    • Mike

      Thats why we need to leave the EU and ECHR so we can take the measures that are needed to protect the country.

  • Innit Bruv

    It’s Mr. Murray’s fellow NeoCons from the across the Atlantic who are largely to blame for the mess that is today’s Iraq.

    • Mike

      You didn’t listen to the discussion or certainly didn’t understand it.

      Its become blatantly clear in the last few years that whether the west got involved or stayed out of Islamic affairs, there are many in Islam who want to kill all infidels just like Hamas wants to exterminate all Israelis, Jews, Christians and Muslims alike.

      I can accept that the west in its naivety and stupidity has made serious mistakes in trying to understand Islam and we now understand we can’t deal with Islam as its an alien religion to western culture, beliefs and human values. Its now very apparent we were damned if we did or damned if we didn’t get involved in countries like Iraq or Libya and we’ve learned a hard lesson here, at least most of us have unlike our politicians.

      As many others have said, the way Islam is taught is incompatible with the west, it inspires some Muslims to kill us and in a very real sense, it is todays religion of hate. We have to face up to that, deal with it and take draconian measures to counter an insane religion that wants to destroy the world and put it back 1000 years.

      • Innit Bruv

        “I can accept that the West…mistakes”
        The mistake “the West” made.or to be more specific France and Britain made, was carving up the region and arranging its demographics to suit their own interests with complete disregard for the aspirations of the indigenous populations (in doing so Britain reneged on a previous agreement with local leaders).
        The fighting we are witnessing today would have happened a century ago had it not been for the Sykes -Picot accords and would not have been nearly as messy. The region might also have been spared the likes of Saddam Hussein and
        Hafez Al Assad. It might also have been spared the Iranian mullahs had the US and Britain not overthrown the democratically elected government of Mohammad Mossaddegh in 1953.
        The hatred some Muslims feel towards the West is largely down to History and not to some “insane religion that wants to destroy the world”. Granted,there are some extremists who do think that way but not as many as Mr.Murray would have you believe (remember, according to the “experts” ISIS is only numbers around 20 000). Believe me, I understand the discussion only too well and am in no need of any history lessons from you and certainly not from the likes of Mr.Murray.

        • Mike

          Ahhh, the poor victim hood of those of an Islamic faith makes me want to drag out that pity pot again and again and throw up into it.

          The west had its time when countries were being carved up arbitrarily throughout history but we finally saw sense, accepted the boundaries and made peace with each other but why can’t Muslims or for that matter tribes in Africa. When the west draw boundary’s there were NO states as such for 95% of their colonies in the 19th century and although certain boundaries can be seen to be ill advised, its the religion that promotes death today, pure and simple.

          When infants are brainwashed to hate the ‘infidel’ from 3 years on as well as other ‘sects’ of Islam, it isn’t any wonder that Islam is the cancer that is causing all these deaths today. Christianity was the same with its blood letting phase over border disputes which were really about which part of Christianity controls the population and Islam is doing EXACTLY the same now.

          Its very easy for apologists like yourself to blame history and the evil west for all your pathetic ills rather than look at the real cause of all this hate that is preached in the mosques whether Sunni or Shia. History lessons will not help fix this problem as its the religion & culture of Islam that is killing thousands. Catholics & Protestants no longer go around killing each other by the thousands despite arbitrary borders so why do Muslims ?

          Because Islam preaches it, ‘innit’ the case, and boy have they mastered the art of slaughtering innocents !

          • http://rielouise.wordpress.com Marie Louise Noonan

            Catholics & Protestants no longer go around killing each other by the thousands despite arbitrary borders so why do Muslims ?

            you have got to be kidding.

            http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/coffeehouse/2013/04/the-boston-bombings-should-make-us-real-ira-supporters-stop-and-think/

          • Mike

            Lets try and put this in perspective,

            Fact – Between 1969 and 2001 in Northern Ireland, 3,526 people from both sides were killed as a result of the conflict between Catholics and Protestant . In ONE day, 9-11, nearly 3000 people were killed at the WTC, The Pentagon and in Philadelphia through terrorism inspired by Islam. 32 years of killing vs 1 day !!!!

            Fact – In the 30 year war in Europe during the 17th century we had a war that was primarily a Christian one just like Iraq & Syria with Islam today. Many towns and villages saw their population reduced to one quarter of its previous size and one third of ALL German villages and cities were raised to the ground over religion. Sounds rather familiar looking at the middle east right now.

            The point being, in the west for the most part we have settled our differences and there isn’t mass genocide anymore. No one is pretending there aren’t the odd cases of racially inspired murders but nothing like the “Troubles”, nothing like the 30 year war and nothing like todays Islamic bloodletting.

          • http://rielouise.wordpress.com Marie Louise Noonan

            I get it: Americans suffered the most.

          • Mike

            You made the specious comment implying that thousands of Catholics were being killed every day by Protestants and all I did was put it in perspective and state that it was untrue. I suppose Bobby Sands was killed by Margaret Thatcher as well according to your folk lore ! Fiction is a wonderful thing, it can say anything it likes without factual back up.

          • http://rielouise.wordpress.com Marie Louise Noonan

            ‘You made the specious comment implying that thousands of Catholics were being killed every day by Protestants’

            and then:

            ‘I suppose Bobby Sands was killed by Margaret Thatcher as well according to your folk lore’

            No I did not. How on earth did you arrive at that conclusion?

            i provided a link. Follow it and you’ll find an article that begins thus:

            ‘one of the first world statesmen to send a message of sympathy to Boston after last week’s outrage was Gerry Adams, president of Sinn Fein. ‘Just watching news of the explosion in Boston,’ he tweeted, ‘Sympathy with people of that fine city.’ Mr Adams has every reason to think fondly of Boston. Throughout the troubles, while he sat on the IRA war council, Boston was one of the major American centres which he (through Noraid) could rely on for support and funding.’

          • Mike

            This was your comment –

            “Catholics & Protestants no longer go around killing each other by the thousands despite arbitrary borders so why do Muslims ? you have got to be kidding”.

            That implies that Catholics and Protestants are indeed still killing each other by the thousands. I pointed out that was a lie and gave statistics for the number actually killed.

            I then made the point that you probably thought that Margaret thatcher killed Bobby Sands, I did not state that you actually said that.

            As for Gerry Adams and Boston, its only natural to sympathize with NORAID and some in the Irish community in Boston who funded the IRA and their terrorism. Their sympathizers over there even got caught trying to buy missiles in Miami I think it was.

          • http://rielouise.wordpress.com Marie Louise Noonan

            Although there was also Mutually Assured Destruction.

          • Innit Bruv

            Not a muslim,therefore not my ills. You miss the point.
            Were it not for recent western history in that part of the world, the killing would have been confined to that part of the world.It would have occurred after the collapse of the Ottoman empire and in all likelihood would not have been quite as bloody.
            The rest of us would not be targets.
            Not an apologist,merely seek to enlarge your rather simplistic portrayal of that part of world and its history.
            PS: Catholics and Protestants may not be killing each other by the thousands????Hello???

          • http://rielouise.wordpress.com Marie Louise Noonan

            You owe this chap an apology.

          • Mike

            What, for telling it as it is with Islam. Why do you think 1400 vulnerable underage girls were specifically targeted by those of a Islamic faith & culture for gang rape in Rotherham.

            Just read the scripts of the Koran and its all there or better yet, theres 100’s of videos on you tube explaining what is taught in Islam regarding women non rights.

            Islamic women have few rights and non Islamic girls like those in Rotherham, Oxford, Rochdale and many other cities are literally sex slaves in Islams eyes to be used and discarded at will.

  • Cincinnatus

    This battle is going on in households and mosques up and down this country. We fear joining up these dots. And we fear giving offence more than we fear the international opprobrium that is coming our way.

    Speak for yourself. Islam is an ideology that is simply incompatible with (and in fact hostile to) liberal democratic societies.

  • Mosul

    Shiraz Maher said at the end of the video that Muslims in England who support the Islamic State, when they saw the beheading of James Foley, “are cheering that and are embracing that”; “are celebrating”, because they regard it “as humiliating the West…” These are the brave “Lions” of Islam? Kidnapping an innocent, unarmed man; imprisoning him for two years and subjecting him to torture; tying his hands behind his back so that he is unable to defend himself; then in that defenseless position, sawing off his head; This is jihadist bravery?!? Only the lowest of vilest cowards can have such Chutzpah; and so the humiliation falls back on them…

  • Mike

    It was very welcoming and like a breath of fresh air listening to Douglas Murray but especially Shiraz Maher. Perhaps if LibLabCon governments had used this expert in analyzing jihadism and its causes instead of liberal progressive apologists like Warsi, we might have been more effective in stopping this extremism.

    Cameron is totally out of his league here either through incompetence or political dogma and sooner than later, we’ll see another atrocity carried out in the UK probably killing thousands and then the inevitable backlash against Islam with many more killed.

    Unlike 9-11, 7-1 or Madrid, when the next atrocity is carried out by Isamic terrorists in the west there will not be a passive response from the law abiding citizens. They’ve had enough of this pandering to an evil religion that is taking over our countries and people will take the law into their own hands for justifiable retribution should an atrocity happen.

    Cameron has to either s*** or get off the pot on this one and crush the Islamofascists in this country before thousands on both sides will be killed.

  • Mike

    What the MSM isn’t prepared to share with us – The desecration of the allied graves by Muslims !

    https://www.youtube.com/embed/RtgbvotqVFE?rel=0

  • English Aborigine

    The Anyones Home Except Our Home Home Secretary

    Is gonna hand Asbos to Jihadis

    Unbe effing believable

    • Starance

      I honestly believe it’ll target those with different political views.

  • Roberta Crichton

    In related news, here are the US deaths in Afghanistan, by year:Bush2001: 52002: 302003: 312004: 492005: 942006: 872007: 1112008: 151Total = 558Obama2009: 3032010: 4972011: 4942012: 2942013: 115Total = 1,703Ref: http://cnsnews.com/news/article/dennis-m-crowley/12-year-war-73-us-casualties-afghanistan-obamas-watch

  • cartimandua

    Anyone who goes to jihad should face a war crimes trial on their return. They will have been part of rapes tortures and mass murders.
    Heave them at the Hague and make sure we don’t pay for it.
    Meanwhile get tough with the customs multiculti allows and provides the pond from which these reptiles crawl.

  • cartimandua

    Item one ask every Muslim woman to dump the hijab not just the face veil all the covering BS.
    We don’t do public religion here because it guarantees civil peace and freedom of belief. Want to dress like an Arab peasant leave.
    It makes people ill. It creates a climate of opinion which fosters jihad.
    Stop importing spouses from rural Pakistan.
    Don’t let Mosques operate unless women have equal space in the main hall.
    That includes the Regents Park Mosque.

  • Garry Otton

    No wonder. Look how long the UK has been marginalising secularism!

  • Garry Otton
    • Lamia

      Only in the world of disingeuous idiots for whom spraining an ankle is ‘just as bad’ as having a leg amputated.

      • Garry Otton

        So you think Christian evangelists indoctrinating black Africans to stone and set fire to gays is like ‘spraining an ankle’?

        • Lamia

          No, I don’t, anymore than I think ISIS raping and murdering thousands of people is like ‘having a leg amputated’. I am talking about the scale of suffering being inflicted, not the nature of the suffering.

        • Lea

          You should get our facts straight. Uganda is filled with muslims, including their government.

          • Garry Otton

            I have got my facts right and am well aware that both Islamic and Christian groups follow the same homophobic agenda.

          • Lea

            If you had your facts right then you would be able to make a casual observation that Christians do not persecute homosexuals, but that muslims murder them. Yet, at the same time, muslims perpetrate homosexual acts, they just legitimise it by believing that boys who have not reached puberty are girls. Simple facts.
            Christians merely reject the recognition of homosexuality as an acceptable societal practise. Homosexuals are a minority and their influence on a healthy society is negative and should not be promoted. Homosexuals should learn to keep their sexuality to themselves, like heterosexuals do, instead of flapping it out all over the place, like some kind of naked pervert with a trench coat exposing himself at every opportunity.
            The majority of people in the world are revolted by the sexuality of homosexuals, it is a natural human reaction, and has no bearing on religion. Homosexuals should learn to respect that. Instead the minority is terrorising the majority.

          • Garry Otton

            It’s always difficult to know where to start when you’re confronted by Stupid. Is this a result of the legacy of religious indoctrination in schools? Some Christians ARE killing homosexuals in Africa and if you read my articles you’ll know that. Homosexuality has been recorded in hundreds of mammals by scientific – nor religious – research. So much scientific study has been made now that we have a much better understanding of it than the pure ignorance demonstrated in your post.

          • Lea

            Homosexuality is an aberration of nature, never a norm. Only a small fraction of human beings are biologically born that way. The rest of them are the consequence of perversion of life, mostly through psychological traumas and demonic influences, often generational.

          • Garry Otton

            Demonic influence? Really? OK, now we have a religious nutcase in our midst and that certainly ISN’T normal!

    • Lea

      Have you noted that this article is not about homosexuality or white Christians, but about Islamic muslim terrorism?

  • Dave Cockayne

    Passports? How about bullets to the back of the head. Still far more humane compared to the atrocities committed by these ‘British citizens’.

    Execute them and expel their families.

  • NahumNigel Froumin

    Remember!
    A British soldier in uniform was murdered in a London street by Moslems
    fired up emotionally by their preacher in the mosque.
    Christians and other minorities in Mosul, Iraq are given the choice: Convert to Islam! or you must leave or die!
    200 schoolgirls are kidnapped in Nigeria and forcibly converted to Islam
    and sold as slaves.
    James Foley beheaded by an IS fanatic.
    I could go on with more horrid stories.
    Moderate Moslems make themselves irrelevant through their silence and
    inaction.
    Those in the enlightened western world who have ethics and codes of
    behaviour which respect democracy and the rights of the individual —
    politicians, bureaucrats and generals alike — are watching the
    events of the war between Israel and Hamas very closely. If it ends with a decisive and clear victory for Israel then all will feel some relief.
    But if Hamas is left with anything that it can put on its (green) flag with which it can wave ‘Victory’ — then the other Moslem extremists (black flag) will be greatly encouraged and further inflamed to kill the infidel. That’s not only me, my family and my countrymen here in Israel, but you too! – Yes! That includes the writer who fled (white escapism) to Gloustershire to get away from ‘black’ London. They will find you there and impose their Sharia law – starting with closing the corner pub.
    Where is the leader of the free world? He’s on vacation at
    Martha’s Vinyard MS or busy fundraising for the congressional elections..

    But listen! The fate of the world for the coming century depends on the
    events of the next few weeks. If Hamas and/or ISIS win then the future is black for us all.
    Let me ask you a question.
    If Israel hadn’t the good fortune to have the Iron Dome in place & at the right time & in sufficient quatities to explode in the air cc 3,000 Hamas ballistic missiles fired at our population centres, then what is your estimate of the number of people who would have been killed here?
    It wouldn’t have been ‘collateral’ damage. The missiles are being aimed at civilians. And another question: How do you think the politicians and the media would be reacting if the death toll were more ‘even’ ? Would they all ‘feel’ better about things if the death count were more ‘proportional’? More like ‘cricket’? i.e. HOW you play is more important than WINNING? Eh?

    Before Arik Sharon, then PM in 2005 pulled out of Gaza, thousands of Gazans would access Israel everday for employment. Israelis would go shopping in Gaza to get cheaper prices for everything from tomatoes to car repair. SAVE US from stupid politicians!!! Hamas brutally threw out the Fatah & declared themselves to be eternal enemies of Israel and have the destruction of Israel written as an objective in their founding charter. Meanwhile 90% of Gaza’s electricity comes from Israel’s Ashkelon power station (they didn’t aim any missiles that way).
    Confused?
    Then understand this:
    The central objective of a leader (i.e. big chief) is to continue to be in that job.
    The Hamas leaders are under pressure because the Moslem Brotherhood in Egypt have been neutralized by A-Sisi (who hates them). Nobody else loves them. The people of Gaza don’t believe them anymore because they were promised prosperity, death to the infidels (Yes: that’s YOU too) and the destruction of the State of Israel. All those have proved to be empty promises. So now, to show their strength & to stay in charge, they fire the missiles at us, knowing it will cause
    international publicity and hand-wringing & so bring themselves back to centre stage & so getting more time as ‘big chief’ without having to bother with elections. The real hero is a guy called Danny Gold who’s the inspiration and brains behind the programming of the Iron Dome anti-missile-missile system. Without that there would be a lot of killed and injured here.
    If only the Arabs could find leaders who realized that cooperating with us would be a really good deal for them. See all the help Israel gives to the third world in industry and agriculture. The Palestinians could have that too. But right now all they do is sell their message “hate the Jews”.
    Not much has changed in the world, has it?
    Yours
    Nahum

    • Damaris Tighe

      Well said. Stay safe.

    • Lea

      How come Anjem Choudary is not deported back to Pakistan yet? What do you British do about people like him? continue supporting him with your taxes, like dhimmis?

      • NahumNigel Froumin

        I entirely support your sympathies. May I be allowed, perhaps, one small correction: Please do not refer to me as “British” as in your above brief blog. Even though educated in Britain, actually at Nottingham University, I am, nevertheless, a Proud Israeli and I live with my family in Tel-Aviv — and at the same I am proud to have my English friends and relatives and good use of the English language, as do here my fellow bloggers. All the best! from Nahum Froumin – TelAviv.

      • NahumNigel Froumin

        I entirely support your sympathies. May I be allowed, perhaps, one small correction: Please do not refer to me as “British” as in your above brief blog. Even though educated in Britain, actually at Nottingham University, I am, nevertheless, a Proud Israeli and I live with my family in Tel-Aviv — and at the same I am proud to have my English friends and relatives and good use of the English language, as do here my fellow bloggers. All the best! from Nahum Froumin – TelAviv.

  • Alf

    You are a Muslim, or you are british, you cannot be both as they are total opposites.

  • jesseventura2

    And the parts played by Tony the phony Blair and Gordon the clown Brown for encouraging this infestation of islamic vermin?
    Bring back Cheney and Rumsfeld to order the dropping of modern day versions of little boy and fat man on these sub human dogs.

    • Lea

      It is my opinion that the oil rich muslim countries have the western countries in a stranglehold. The play off is that the oil flows on the condition that the western countries allow unfettered muslim immigration and that their religion be protected from the kaffirs. And then there may also be bribery and blackmail.

  • http://www.churchofthehealingministry.com Reverend Richard de Meath

    They are not ‘our boys’ and never have been. They are immigrants, country stealers, traitors, the scum of the earth, enemies of the people, anything except British!

  • Terry Field

    My friends in Washington tell me the US government is about as pissed off with its British sally as it could be.
    About time.
    Democratic pressure has no effect on the lying British government and their politicised Civil Service concerning the Islamic threat at home – maybe the US can begin to force a change to sanity.

    • http://rielouise.wordpress.com Marie Louise Noonan

      ‘My friends in Washington tell me the US government is about as pissed off with its British sally as it could be…’

      I’m guessing they don’t regard Gerry Adams as ‘the next George Washington’ any more.

      • Terry Field

        Ah…..it’s tough when the scales fall from the eyes – but the bright side is that maybe the US can lean on the crackpot British government and politicised Civil Serice to reverwe the ‘celebrate the difference’ policies.

        • Lamia

          As a loyal Brit, I hope our American cousins do lean on the collection of dimbulbs and traitors who are meant to be running this country.

          If the CIA feels like popping over to deal directly with some of the extremist Islamist scumbags polluting our country, well… obviously I couldn’t possibly condone that but I think I might, what’s the word… ‘understand’ it. And I certainly wouldn’t raise a word of protest or criticism about it. I try to be non-judgmental, you see.

          • Terry Field

            And what a commentary on the decline and near-collapse of a once great civilisation that we are incapable of governing ourselves with a hope of cultural survival.
            I wonder if the New Labour ex-ministers can be made subject to any law in Britain for their misdeeds?

          • http://rielouise.wordpress.com Marie Louise Noonan

            The CIA couldn’t even deal with ‘The Planes Operation’.

          • Lea

            The CIA is so infested with muslims, it may just be counter productive.

  • cromwell

    I think a big part of the problem is that the Muslim immigrants to Britain tended to be uneducated villagers with a fundamentalist world view and this culture has been passed down. The Muslims that went to other countries tended to be more sophisticated urban professionals.

    • Terry Field

      Ha ha – any thin argument to ignore the reality of Islam and its imperatives. Look at history, wally.
      And where did the motive force for radical Islam come from recently – yes- well done – a gold star – the most sophisiticated cente of Arab urban thought……………..CAIRO!
      Really rural and out of the way, Cairo!

      • Lea

        The motive force in fact came originally from Afghanistan, the Taliban, and Egypt is just the festering place.

    • Damaris Tighe

      I think this might explain their adherence to clans & more ghastly cultural practices, but the oldest generation of Pakistani immigrants tended to follow a Sufi tradition which emphasised interior spiritual practice rather than jihad. It’s their children & grandchildren who’ve been ‘radicalised’ by Saudi Wahabism & Salafism – both of which are a fundamentalist ‘back to basics’. For this reason both are also hostile to Sufism.

      • Lea

        Sufism is not peaceful, it is Islamic occultism and Sufis have joined ISIS. Mosul is a harbour of Sufis who are elated at the Islamic jihad and imposition of the barbaric sharia islam.

  • Light4u

    they are no longer british.

    they abandoned british values and their allegiance. DO not let them return. take their passports away and let them fight for their death cult

  • John

    Muslims are not ‘our boys’.

  • Moon2013

    I am a Muslim and I try to read verses from the holy Quran
    each day, but I don’t accept what the ISIS does, and I prefer to call them the
    Un-Islamic state as what they do is really against Islam teachings.

    One question I ask to myself is “Why we see young guys
    easily attracted to such extreme ideas?

    In my opinion such extreme thinking has been there centuries
    ago, but it becomes strong ONLY when True Muslims are weak and don’t follow the
    real teachings of Islam. So in such cases, young guys can’t see the real
    Islamic models, and they will be easily attracted to extreme people who call
    for the extreme thinking and who claim that they ‘The extremists’ are the ones
    which follow the teaching of Islam (which is not true).

    In my opinion, when young guys see the killing of people by their
    regime as it is happening in Syria or the sectarian violence in Iraq which was
    supported by the Iraqi government, when they read about the plans that was set
    by US/Israelis to divide the countries of the Arabic region and compare it what
    is happening right now in that region, when they see the full support Israel
    has from the US and other western governments while they are killing the
    children and destroying Gaza, when they remember how the US invaded Iraq
    claiming they have mass destruction weapons that have never been found, when they
    see how most of the Islamic countries’ leaders don’t provide role models, unfortunately,
    they will be easily caught by other guys who call for extreme thinking.

    One last thing, the article mentions two guys who had
    exploded themselves in Israel, it also describes Hamas as a terrorist group;
    for me, this is totally different from what the ISIS is doing as Israel is an
    occupation state, and Palestinians – and Hamas which is part of them – have all
    the right to resist this ugly occupation.

    • tomgreaves

      There are few examples of archetypal tales of the hero playing out with quite so much drama as that being conjured by IS. Middle of the road Islam does not attract the heroic mentality that conflates religious zeal with sex, heaven and eternal life. These archetypal processes seduce anyone seeking glory. IS is going nowhere. In fact, it will consolidate regardless of what armies are railed against it. Disempowered Muslims around the world will gravitate towards a homeland which promises freedom from western infidels. The big problems will arise, of course, when the radicals resident in the west are prevented from going out to join their comrades and so will fight on western soil. We are all in for a long period of internecine conflict.

      • Moon2013

        Honestly, I haven’t got your point; pardon my English as I
        am not an English native; However, I believe we can fight extreme thinking by
        empowering the true Muslims; I am here talking about convincing the guys which
        want to worship God, and think that extreme thinking is the right way.

        • Lea

          The only way is to NOT empower muslims anymore than we have, since they consider this weakness and use it to subvert and dominate us. So no more empowerment for muslims. For empowerment, they should choose to live in Islamic countries and stop parasiting off and corrupting western countries.

      • Lea

        A homeland which promises freedom from western infidels? Are these immigrants not muslims who would die to get to a western country to escape the constant crimes of islam against them by other muslims? No one is stopping them from going, but they will not be allowed to return. That should be the policy already stated, and the warning should extend to the families of the Islamic jihadist psychopaths as well, all deported to their Islamic country of origin where they can feel more at home in their Islamic homeland.

    • jjjj

      Ah…the usual comment that starts of ‘reasonably’ to hook the reader and then continues with an Islamist diatribe against Israel. Perhaps if Hamas had learned to behave like in a civilised manner and not like savages, we would have had peace by now. The other day when Hamas fired missiles at the Erez crossing during an evacuation of wounded people, an Israeli-Arab paramedic cursed Hamas for the barbarians that they are. Because of these Islamist savages, we are all hostages: On public transport including airports and train stations, in the streets (lee rigby) etc. Not to mention the incessant antisemitic attacks on Jews by your ilk.
      Hamas are a nihilistic terror organisation which hides behind women and children. It fires from mosques and schools and hospitals.
      God help this world, if Hamas and the savage IS get to decide how to behave. That also goes for their apologists here.

      • NahumNigel Froumin

        I completely endorse all you wrote, We have had enough of media apologetics for Hamas barbaric behaviour. Well said.

      • Moon2013

        As I mentioned before, for me Hamas is different than ISIS.

        Hamas was founded during the first Intefada-1987, and was elected in 2006, so I guess the claim that their behavior might be the reason behind not having a peace is not accurate (let’s remember that the conflict is since 1948).

        As for me, the Zionist Israel doesn’t present all the Jews, there are some Jew who are against Israel and against its massacres in Gaza, you can check the IJSN site below for an example:

        http://ijsn.net/press-release-jewish-holocaust-survivors-from-around-the-world-call-for-justice-in-gaza/

        It’s clear that we do have different opinions here; however, I hope that we all seek the truth and justice and not are biased for a specific group as in my opinion, those who seek the truth will finally find it, regardless of how long the time they take, and those who are biased, will close their eyes, ears and hearts regardless of how solid the facts they face.

        • Lea

          Hamas is of the exact same ilk and ideology as Isis and the other 90 Islamic jihadist psychopathic groups just in Syria Iraq and Gaza. They all adhere to koranic injunctions, hadiths and sunna that espouse racist hatred towards Jews. All of them are united in only one goal, and that is to do to the Israelis what they are acting out in emulation of mohammad in Iraq and Syria.

          • Moon2013

            Those who study the Islamic ideologies, know that Hamas and ISIS are very different in ideology.
            In the other hand, several verses of the Holy Quran mention how the sons of Israel (Prophet Jacob) were mistreated by Faroh and how Allah has helped them against Faroh under the leadership of Prophet Moses peace be upon him. The Quran also mentions examples of the mistakes that the sons of Israel have done after that. I don’t think this can be called a speech of hatre; if the Quran guides us to hate the Jews then why it mentions several verses to support them against Faroh, and those examples about their mistakes are simply like the verses that mention the mistakes that some of the Muslims did during the era of Prophet Mohammad peace be upon him, all these examples are given to guide the Muslims not to do such mistakes in the future, and they also help us in dealing with the Israelis nowadays as the Quran tells us examples of their attitudes and general behavior.

          • Lea

            Hamas was created by the Black Hand, the same organisation that provoked WW1.

            The Black Hand (Arabic: الكف الاسود (transliteration) al-Kaff al-Aswad‎) was an anti-Zionist and anti-British militant organization in the British Mandate of Palestine. It was founded in 1930 and led until his death in 1935 by Syrian-born Sheikh Izz ad-Din al-Qassam,[1] whose preaching was instrumental in laying the foundations for the formation of the Black Hand, which he used to proclaim jihad and attack Jewish settlers.[2] The idea for such a group appeared to crystallize after the 1929 riots, though one source says a decision was taken after the Day of Atonement incitement at the Wailing Wall in September 1928.

            From the outset a split occurred in the organization, with one militant group led by Abu Ibrahim arguing for immediate terror attacks, while the other headed by al-Qassam thought an armed revolt premature, and risked exposing the group’s preparations. According to Subhi Yasin, the terror attacks in the north were executed by the dissident group in defiance of Qassam, though in 1969 Abu Ibrahim denied these allegations. The ensuing terror campaign began with the ambush and murder of three members of Kibbutz Yagur, 11 April 1931, a failed bombing attack on outlying Jewish homes in Haifa, in early 1932, and several operations that killed or wounded some four members of northern Jewish settlements. It climaxed with the deaths of a Jewish father and son in Nahalal, from a bomb thrown into their home, on 22 December 1932.
            There is nothing peaceful about muslims. Their fanatical outrage and offense for cartoons and videos is demonstrated in aggression, violence, and murder. Whilst they exhibit no such outrage against ISIS, whom they love to say are un-Islamic, yet the members are ALL muslims, who are implementing 7th century mohammadian Islamic laws and actions, in the same way mohammad did. They would kill you for not agreeing with them because this means you are not a true muslim. To say that ISIS is hijacking islam, and then for the Iraq and Syrian and other muslim countries to sit idly by and allow ISIS to continue with its wicked deeds, says a lot about muslims and the truth about islam.

    • cartimandua

      The reason it has all kicked off is Muslims treating women like livestock. They over populate every resource and job then fight or migrate.
      It is not Israels fault than Muslims cannot behave prudently or rationally and then whine about the consequences of their own actions.

      • Moon2013

        It’s your opinion, but I disagree with it. I am a Muslim women in a Muslim family and no one treats us like livestock.

        • Lea

          You must be one of those lucky few muslim women who live in a western world protected by judeo-christian based laws. You should be concerned about how your muslim sisters are being treated by muslim men in muslim countries.

          • Moon2013

            Actually I am a Muslim woman who was born and raised in the middle east region, specifically in Jordan. I don’t deny the mistreatment of Muslim women in some Muslim countries, but unfortunately this happens same as it happens to women in other parts of the world, and you can check the shocking numbers in the internet for the abused women even in the western countries. And Just to remind you that a Muslim
            woman was not safe even in a German court, when an extremist killed her in front of her child, you can check more about this here:

            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Marwa_El-Sherbini

          • Lea

            Abuse of women in the west is criminalised, whereas in muslim countries, it is legalised, as a part of sharia. That is a major difference. The fact remains that when muslims migrate to western countries, they do not leave their ideology behind, but continue to practise these things in defiance of the law of the land they are living in, since muslims are trained to only obey Islamic ideology which is in opposition to western culture and law. Then there are also those muslims like yourself, who benefit from the added protection measures, and higher standard of living and freedoms that western countries offer. If you really want to take an honest look at Islam and its culture then take a look at a little country called Eritrea. This is the kind of country that it created when there is not western influence allowed.

    • Lea

      If ISIS is un-Islamic then so is mohammad and the Koran, as well as all the hadiths and sunna, and then does Islam even exist?

      • Moon2013

        Have you read the Holy Quran, I hope you will do so.
        and please read it an open eyes, ears and heart so you can touch its beauty and peace.

        • Lea

          I have read the unholy Koran, and I have to say that I was highly appalled to discover that Islam is not an Abrahamic religion. No longer, are muslims innocent, since they adhere to a diabolical set of works that declares war on humanity. The haidths and sunna are even more evil.
          For someone to think that such a false work is the truth, means they are in bondage to evil, since they have lost their power of discernment between what is evil and good. Islam calls that which is evil, good and that which is good, evil. The reason for this is that muslims consider that mohammad as the perfect man, a mortal sinner, who waged war and took slaves, and married many women, had sex with a dead woman, and also robbed others of their property. This is the anti-thesis of Jesus Christ who is sinless as God.

          • Moon2013

            Please let’s have a clean conversation so that we can have
            productive discussion. I can’t continue in a discussion where my beloved prophet is insulted with such disgusting lies, and I trust that neither Jesus peace be upon him nor his merciful religion agrees your approach in discussion.

            Final word, I urge anyone who wants to know more about
            Islam to read the Holy Quran himself; he doesn’t have to listen to me nor to you, so that his/her opinion will be led by his/her believes and not by others.
            May Allah guide us to the straight path.

  • http://batman-news.com The Commentator

    Douglas you forgot to mention “our boys” participating in the Gaza genocide. You know, those Brits’ who are also reservists in the blood-soaked Israeli Defence Force.

    • jjjj

      Gaza ‘genocide’? lol. Considering that Hamas have sworn to commit genocide against Jews anywhere in the world…Good luck to the IDF.

      • NahumNigel Froumin

        Yes you are quite right. Israel has no reason or motivation to purposely target civilians or do any wholesale destruction. After all, it is not only immoral it is also bad for the international power game of diplomatic poker. Israel targets military targets — and warns civilians to get out of the way beforehand. Some miss-hits can happen — but to describe Israel’s actions as “genocide” as “The Commentator” does, is just the usual propaganda of distorted and selected reporting that the headline seeking journalists use to advance their careers in the current fashion of “Bash the Jews and Israelis” . Ugly. Hamas and ISIS must be recognized for what they are: an endanger to democracy and enlightened civilization. Nahum in Israel.

    • Coleridge1

      No doubt ‘The Commentator’ is one of those hapless ‘radicalized’ Muslims placed against his will on the margins of society after having been indoctrinated in some Madrassa in apartheid Pakistan. Totally incapable of differentiating between the army of a liberal-democracy and it’s islamofascist Hamas enemy that has vowed I it’s Charter to exterminate every Jewish man women and child on the planet in the same way as ISIS is exterminating every non-Muslim in Iraq and Syria.
      I don’t think Boris went far enough. During WW2 we interned Nazi sympathizers. Before Islamists carry out another outrage in the UK, we need to give serious thought to interning Muslim fanatics such as Anjem Choudhry, George Galloway, Lauren Booth, Yvonne Ridley, the leadership of the Respect Party and the leaders of the Muslim Council of Britain.
      Better still, offer them a choice: internment at HMP Belmarsh or a one way ticket to racist apartheid Pakistan.

    • Lea

      Israel appears to be the only country able to protect its civilans and country from the jihadist Islamic psychopaths, unlike Iraq and Syria with their million strong army, or even Nigeria and CAR Africa or Somalia etc etc etc. Israel fights the good fight, they fight the evil of Islam. Islam is the enemy of humanity.

  • tomgreaves

    There is murderous rage building in large numbers of indigenous Brits, that threatens to explode. All the ingredients of violent civil conflict are in place, and this will mean a parallel build up of police and quasi military defence forces. So, one of the most devastating consequences of allowing millions of Muslims into the country will be the erosion of our liberties, more big-brother vigilance and social control. The terrible irony is that the very values that radical Islam threatens to strangle our freedom with will be forced upon us by our own establishment. In the history of Britain there is no greater example of treasonous stupidity than the behaviour of the establishment that allowed the mass immigration of peoples who are utterly and completely alien to our way of life. I’m not sure who is worse, the treacherous British establishment or IS.

    • Damaris Tighe

      I agree, except that if we’re to have erosion of our liberties (& I don’t want that at all) I’d rather it came from the state than from the Islamic version. At least there won’t be beheadings & head coverings for women -unless they’re followers of Oliver Cromwell.

  • cartimandua

    The jihadis are exported civil conflict and multiculti is behind it all.

  • Suzy61

    I have just read a report saying this weekend will see tens of thousands of moderate Muslims protesting in our cities against the actions if ISIS. They will carry banners stating ‘Not in Our Name’. Guest speakers will include the parents and family of some of those thought to have gone abroad to fight and decapitate. And then I woke up.

  • Thaddeus lovelock

    Muslims often say that these fanatical Jihadists are not Muslim. Its funny how these distortions of Islam, always go in the direction, of ultra violence. why, don’t these distortions of Islam, take on a more peaceful manifestation? why is the resort to violence nearly always their defining feature?.

  • James Adair

    james adair

  • James Adair

    thanks-no thanks to the Guardian,BBD & Polly T. Queen of PC

  • Sage Ham

    Douglas has so eloquently articulate the stupidity of where Britain is today. It is great to see more people begin to understand what Islam and Muslims are in a different league. A British beheading and the abuse of 1400 white girls may shake a few out of their addled British minds. However I believe the focus is wrong. You cannot change traditional Islam. The off switch in their minds connected to the self destruct circuit. Britain has to stop this immigration. You have been trained to revolt against this but look at reality. British society cannot withstand this unless it capitulates and it has. Allowing unfettered immigrations and Mult Kult is like allowing a pedophile in thier daughters room – a bit like what the morons in Rotheram did

    • http://rielouise.wordpress.com Marie Louise Noonan

      Another Yank sock puppet.

      • paul

        well whatever his nationality, he certainly speaks more sense than you pet!

        • http://rielouise.wordpress.com Marie Louise Noonan

          Traitor.

  • Sage Ham

    Undermine the Islamist and left argument. Freedom is not a right, it is a priviledge

  • Sage Ham

    Can (you) Jack Cowell categorically state that Death penalty for apostacy is inhuman and evil? Can he state that forcing kids to wear veils is an assault on their sexuality?. Can he confirm that while the common informal perception that white girls are easy meat, to be used and thrown is a narrative propagated in relvant circles and the rape of 1400 kids was directly done by members of that more mis-understood community?

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