Features

Students - bunk off your sex classes and learn on the job

They should be left in their digs to learn on the job

27 September 2014

9:00 AM

27 September 2014

9:00 AM

The freshers heading off to university this month won’t only be bombarded with invites to join clubs and enough free Pot Noodles to sustain them till Christmas. They’ll also be swamped by advice on how to have sex. These young men and women, who probably thought that squirm-inducing sex-ed classes were a thing of their childish pasts, are in for a rude awakening. For now, sex education extends into adulthood: students must now have ‘consent classes’.

At some universities, including Oxford and Cambridge, they’ll be compulsory. You’re an 18-year-old guy who’s been in a happy, lovely sexual relationship for two years already? Tough. You must still submit to being instructed in the right and wrong way to have intercourse. The brainchild of the National Union of Students and various women’s societies, the classes will last for 30 minutes. Students will be taught that sexual consent must be ‘active’ and ‘willing’, say the organisers of Cambridge’s classes. That is, you should seek audibly stated consent — ‘Yes, you may now engage in coitus with me’ — before the sex act occurs. How romantic!

At more than 20 universities, the NUS is hosting ‘I ♥ consent’ workshops to instruct new students on communicating consent or non-consent to a potential sexual partner — basically, lessons in how to say ‘yes’ and ‘no’. They’re handing out ‘I ♥ consent’ stickers for students to wear and various ‘sexual health products’ to help them ensure that the sex they have is always safe and ‘informed’. It’s hard not to feel sorry for these youths, who probably fantasise about campus life being a free-wheelin’ saucy time, yet who find themselves plonked in a mortifying seminar at which a woman waving condoms will tell them what a minefield sex can be.

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There is delicious doublespeak in the idea of compulsory lessons about consent. The new puritans of modern student officialdom may ‘♥ consent’ but not so much that they will give students a choice about whether to be lectured about sex. You will be compelled to learn about consent! Worse, initiatives like these are likely to backfire, and bugger up rather than boost young people’s understanding of sex.

The consent classes are part of the NUS’s war on ‘lad culture’ on campus. Earlier this year, the NUS held a ‘Lad Culture Summit’ in London — I’m not making this up — to discuss the alleged scourge of boyish banter and antics at universities around Britain. Apparently these lads, with their silly ‘Vicars and Tarts’ fancy-dress parties and their rugby-club booze-ups, think womankind exists primarily for mankind’s sexual gratification.

To prove its point, the NUS published a headline-grabbing survey this month revealing that 37 per cent of female students, and 12 per cent of male students, have experienced sexual harassment on campus. Sounds bad. But bear in mind that NUS’s definition of sexual harassment includes not only ‘groping’ — which we all agree is terrible — but also ‘unwanted sexual advances’. Aren’t unwanted sexual advances a central part of student life? Given that unwanted sexual advances can include everything from a drunken bloke dancing dodgily around a girl he fancies to a leery guy trying out naff chat-up lines on a female student who isn’t interested, it’s nothing short of amazing that only 37 per cent of women at uni have experienced them. When I was at college, pretty much every night involved unwanted sexual advances of some sort or other. And students simply said no. (Or sometimes yes: to a sozzled 19-year-old, having sex with someone you don’t want to have sex with is often better than not having sex at all.)

We can all agree that sex without consent is wicked. But that doesn’t mean sex must always be accompanied by explicitly stated consent. The compulsory consent brigade seem to think that unless two people in the throes of passion have said to each other, ‘I consent to this intercourse’, something untoward and even criminal has occurred. This is literally the case at universities in California, where a new law demands that sexual encounters between students must involve ‘affirmative consent’ — that is, consent must be ‘unambiguously communicated’ by both parties before sex takes place. The law says that ‘lack of protest… does not mean consent’. To translate this into everyday experience: if a male student is snogging a female student, maybe even getting to second base, he cannot take the fact that she is allowing him to do this as a sign of her consent. He must ask her: ‘Do you consent to this?’ British universities are heading in the same direction. It’s surreal. Have any of these consent promoters ever actually had sex? If they had, they would surely know that one of its great pleasures is that it’s an unspoken, instinctual, experimental thing.

To turn sex into a contractual engagement is to make it similar to prostitution, only without the exchange of money and not nearly as exciting. To negotiate each stage of intimacy through statements of consent — ‘I would just like you to confirm that I have removed your bra and you are not feeling uncomfortable’ — is to kill off seduction. It turns what ought to be a words-free encounter into something like an office meeting. It is, as any Eng lit student knows, Orwellian. In Nineteen Eighty-Four, Orwell’s puritanical dystopia, ‘the sexual act, successfully performed, was rebellion’.

Students of Britain, rebel! Bunk off compulsory consent class and learn about real sex in your digs instead.

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Show comments
  • Mike

    I would have thought that mutual consent was obvious if a woman drops her knickers in front of a man with his pants down and sporting an erection, but in these PC days, I guess not !

    • GraveDave

      It’s terrible, I found myself apologizing to a young lady the other day for bumping my hand with her bum. We were in a lift and she backed onto me.

      • fundamentallyflawed

        You are a pervert…. You must have been standing too close in the first place.. guilty by pre-judgement stuff the facts

      • GUBU

        And there rests the case for the defence, M’lud.

      • Matt Story

        You poor man. I’m sure that little bit of politeness was a great inconvenience for you.

      • Liz

        I accidentally touched a mans bum last week as I squeezed past him and he suddenly bent over. I said sorry. It was terrible.

    • fmf

      Actually, an erection doesn’t count as consent at all, that’s irrelevant (if it did, then a man could never be sexually abused by a woman against his consent, which simply isn’t true. Please don’t make a joke about that.)

      And this is simply facilating honest communication…stripping sounds like open communication, alongside the knowlege that it’s okay if they want to stop then that imaginary scenario is good to go 😛

      • Mike

        I never said that an erection on its own counted as a consent, its all about the setting and what else happens if you had bothered to read my light hearted truism. Of course men can be sexually abused but in the context I joked about, the scene was set where both parties were obviously up for it and the man demonstrated the means.

        In a completely different and opposite context, there was that famous scene in a Dirty Harry movie when he said “If a see a half naked man with a hard on chasing a girl down the street, I figure he ain’t out to collect for the church so I shoot the b******” or words to that effect. As I said, its all about context and setting.

        Maybe the womans intentions when she dropped her knickers was to have a pee but why she would do that on a couch or the bed is a mystery to me ?

        You obviously have little sense of humour but I’m against true rape as much any sensible person but lets not go over the top here.

        • fmf

          I was just ensuring you understood that, yes I’m a little pedantic. Also lol at “the means”…oh how little you clearly understand of non-penatrative non-phallic sex.

          Your point about context was clear.

          “True rape”…and that’s the myth that allows so much rape to go unspoken about. As long as we’re tackling the mythical cackling evil pervert thug bad guy, we’re doing fine. Forget about marital rape, coersion, wilful interpretion of consent when there is none, and people being plyed with alcohol, as long as we’re tackling the myth in the trenchcoat, we’re all good.

          • Mike

            You sure have one big chip on your shoulder and its sounds more like militant feminism than just being pedantic.

            I like most men fully understand what true rape is and its not just some poor woman being attacked by an unknown assailant down a dark alley. Its been verbally beaten into us over the past 20 years by militant feminists so were very clear about it.

            The problem with that list of ‘rapes’ that you accuse me of dismissing is determining proof over whether consent was given or not.

            In marriage, rape certainly happens of that I have no doubt and in Islam they even approve it although I certainly don’t. The problem is how do you prove it unless the wife is actually beaten up. With ‘rough sex’ there will be evidence of internal bruising but some women go for that sort of thing so that makes it difficult to judge.

            Coercion ? What does that mean, physical or mental and how can you prove it in court.

            Willful interpretation of consent ? Now we’re getting into very dangerous waters as a female partner might not be in the mood but the man is and she’s willing to fake it to please him. I’m certain many wives have done this for their husbands at some time or other. Equally, he might be tired but she ‘works’ on him to ensure she gets laid. Thats willful interpretation of consent in my book but is it rape, most certainly not.

            Alcohol ? We all know this can be a minefield of mistakes at the time plus regrets the following day. I use the argument that if you fail the breathalyser test you’re unfit to drive and equally if both people have been drinking, they are incapable of making a sound judgement call as they are effectively drunk. Unless actual violence is used you cant prove a rape occurred especially if the two people involved have had previous encounters.

            Courts rely on objective proof and rightly so, you’re using subjective examples that sometimes happen and claiming them all to be rape when thats clearly not the case.

            With the sexes having different mind sets, men and women have always had some problems with misunderstandings and I’m not just talking about sex. Its a fact of life so get over it and accept it.

            If feminists like you really want clarity on this then they need the Californian type consent form before embarking on a session and just like a police interview, a video recording in case one or other changes their mind part way through and says no.

  • GraveDave

    Has the Spectator got a new look – or is my computer?
    Whatever, cant say it’s an improvement.

  • jtr89

    These NUS feminazis act as if women never want to have sex. They need a good shag. It’s university for goodness sake, people get drunk and sleep around.

    • rtj1211

      The reality of all extremists is that they haven’t grown beyond what they need and what anyone else wants or needs. It’s a massive projection of ‘this is what I need and I want validation that it’s fine for me to be like this’.

      Thing is, when it’s misinterpreted and responded to with ‘OFFS’ or the like, then they get very tetchy, dictatorial and judgemental.

      I have to say it’d be an interesting experiment if one of the entry requirements for university was having lost your virginity. No doubt, for a minority, that would be a dreadful abuse of human rights, not to mention discrimination for lack of opportunity etc etc, but university is supposed to be for young adults, not swots with an emotional age of twelve, after all……

      • Nisha Emich

        oh yeah because being a virgin is apparently equivalent to being the ’emotional age of twelve’ – you are an idiot.

        this also implies that young men and women of stricter faiths/families shouldn’t get going to university because they are not ‘mature enough’ by your standards. Ughhh please just move along.

      • fmf

        Who said university isn’t for swots anyway? It’s a centre of higher education?!
        And ditto what Nisha said.

        So sorry that communicating about sex is so terribly frightening a concept for you, you “adult” person.

        Why on earth would you think honestly talking about sex = never having it? Seriously, what’s going through your mind that says the two are mutually exclusive? Unless you score all your partners through assuming consent or deception.

    • fmf

      1. Yes, call us nazi’s, that’s not belittling to the survivors of the Holocaust/Hitler’s Regime at all.

      2. Not everyone needs or wants sex, and that’s okay.

      3. Someone wanting to hold a talk about communicating about sex doesn’t exactly sound like an uptight prude to me. They just want people to know how to be safe whilst being drunk or sleeping around.

      • Liz

        Nor total hyperbole. What woman or feminist has ever orchestrated a world war and holocaust?

        This is what censors do, they try to undermine and propagandise about their opponents to shut them down.

        • Fraziel

          i think you will find you get called feminazis because you are irrational, controlling, refuse to listen to logic or anything anyone else says and insist on forcing people to do ludicrous things they dont want to do and then branding them if they dont. You keep telling yourself its about ” progandising” if it makes you feel good.

      • Fraziel

        Feminazis is an excellent expression that sums them up rather well i feel.

        • fmf

          Yes, because asking for comprehensive sexual relationship education is exactly the same as mass murder and imprisonment!

          • Fraziel

            Thats not what is meant by the term as you well know. I hear and read about the left regularly calling people nazis in a context that has no refrence to murder or imprisonment so youre just being infantile as well as facetious. They are feminazis in their attitude towards this issue and anyone who dares to disagree. The name suits them perfectly.

          • fmf

            …then why use nazi if what you truly mean is “intolerant extremist”? Clue: It’s because you know that Nazi is synonymous with not only extremism, but also evil i.e mass murder, imprisonment and censorship. You know feminists don’t have anywhere near that power, but you’re scared anyway, so you try your best to get other people that scared by invoking the image of the totilitarian nazi’s that you think feminists will become.

          • Fraziel

            Because being an intolerant extremist is one aspect of being a nazi, and they certainly fit that bill dont they? Funny how i hear so many leftists using it on a regular basis about other groups on the right they deem to be nazis yet none of those other groups are mass murderers. It is commonly used to describe intolerant extremists and its accepted that thats an acceptable way to use it. I am not trying to scare anyone and that thought hadnt even crossed my mind so nice try but no cigar. If you really think that you are so far off the mark its laughable.also You are being ridiculously pedantic and the fact you are being so tells me you have no argument and are clutching at straws. The other reason its appropriate to call them feminazis is because it really really annoys them and hypocritical leftists like you.

          • fmf

            1. Find me one term that uses “nazi” about any other extremist political thought.
            2. It is still incredibly disrespectful to the memory of those who suffered under the Nazi regime to liken yourselves to them because “someone doesn’t like your opinion”. Grow up.
            3. Yes, it’s me who’s being pedantic and doesn’t have an arguement, which is why YOU are resorting to ad hominems instead of actual defences.
            4. Well at least now you are being honest about your immature and selfish reasons for using a word that appropriates and degrades the memory of the Nazi regime.

      • Lydia Robinson

        “They just want people to know how to be safe whilst being drunk or sleeping around”

        If safety is that important, don’t do either. I knew a few people at Uni who never socialised with anyone and just stayed in the library all day.

        • fmf

          …that’s ludicrous. That’s like saying, instead of improving safety, let’s just not do something. Instead of having driving lessons, let’s just not drive! Wayyy less chance of crashing that way!

  • rtj1211

    Everyone who started a science research career learned early quite how useless lectures were for the realities of cutting edge science, its uncertainties, its set backs etc etc.

    I really don’t understand why sitting in lectures having someone talk to you about sex is ideal, but demanding your ‘student voucher’ and spending it on a professional prostitute for practical tutoring is ‘abusing women’.

    The day politicians, feminists etc etc saw such a parlay as a proactive measure to reduce the incidence of sexual complaints due to superior practical sex education might be the day that we’d get off the blame game and make being on the game seen as a respectable and value-adding occupation………

  • Tab Punching Bag

    This entire article seems to be based on the bizarre misconception that you have to literally say ‘yes, I consent’ to consent. Unequivocal behaviour serves as consent. It is uncontentious that if your sexual partner drops their knickers and jumps on top of you, they are consenting. But this is not the issue. The problem is that many presume consent just because there is no ostensible protest, and it’s that line, a far greyer one, which the classes aim to make clearer.

    • whs1954

      “Unequivocal behaviour serves as consent.”

      Not according to the Californian law quoted in the article: “consent must be ‘unambiguously communicated’ … The law says that ‘lack of protest… does not mean consent’.”

      • Mike

        yep, thats the real problem here as they’ve implied that to be 100% safe, you need a written agreement to ensure everyone knows the score. But then, what happens if the woman isn’t enjoying 5 minutes later but says nothing, is consent removed at that point without the mans knowledge.

        The law is an ass when it tries to get involved in social issues like this as it cant quantify in absolute terms but makes vague rules that are impractical.

        • Tab Punching Bag

          Um, no. In English law (Sexual Offences Act 2003), two things are required for rape: 1) lack of consent on the victim’s part; and 2) lack of reasonable belief as to consent on the offender’s part. So if the victim is enjoying at 7.00pm and says ‘yes’, then stops enjoying at 7.05pm, it’s only an offence at the stage at which the offender would reasonably believe the victim was no longer enjoying it, ie if the victim said ‘please stop’ or suddenly went limp or something. It’s not enough for the victim to just internally not be having a great time any more.

          Some bits of the law are an ass. This is not one of those bits.

          • Mike

            I was referring to Californian law not English law.

            That said the phase ‘lack of reasonable belief as to consent on the offender’s part’ is still flawed. He is only an offender if found guilty of non consensual sex and weasel words like ‘reasonable belief’ can mean anything.That’s as bad as the ‘reasonable force’ issue over protecting your home and family against intruders.

            Reasonable belief or reasonable force is subjective not objective and can be argued till the cows come home as to what that really means. I’m sure if someone was impaired by alcohol, that could and would affect their judgement on reasonable belief.

            As evidence I’m sure you’ve heard that old saying that a man or a woman become more attractive the more you have to drink !

          • fmf

            Yes, the law’s a little crap in this area.

            Personally I don’t think the viewpoint of the accused should come into it, if they are being accused, they clearly failed to get it right. (Or someone has an evil vendatta at them which can of course only be executed by subjecting themselves to intimate genital examinations and a rickety broken legal system. But that’s a discussion for another time.)

            Yes, we know. We also know that alcohol doesn’t redeem illegal actions i.e like having sex with a drunk person.

          • Mike

            “Personally I don’t think the viewpoint of the accused should come into it”

            Thanks for that, now we all know where you stand on this debate as its always the mans fault, women never make false accusations, women never get drunk or even tipsy and fail to give any indication whether they want sex or not. Men don’t have a say where feminists are concerned !

            Women are more than capable of getting legless, pursuing sex and then falling asleep just as men can but the difference is all about physics. If a man collapses and fails to get it up the woman can hardly scream rape but the other way around its rape of course. Just as the anonymity rules are skewed against men so is the evidence to accuse someone of rape where men get the short straw.

            Ever heard of sexual equality ?

          • fmf

            Hey, why are you saying “man” and “woman”? I’m talking about potential victims and potential perpetrators of rape…unless for some crazy reason you think that these words are synonymous? (Though that sounds a litte….sexist come to think of it, does it?)

            Also men can and do routinely get erections whilst sleeping.

          • Mike

            I’m simply pointing out that both sexes can get it wrong but from your earlier comment you implied the accused doesn’t get to have a say and seeing as 99.99% of accused rapists are men, you obviously have a serious problem with men. To you they’re all rapists and next you’ll be telling us men with stiffies in their sleep also commit rape.

          • fmf

            No, that’s not true. I have a problem with rapists having a say in whether they committed a crime against someone or not, you wouldn’t do that for any other case, “I thought they wanted me to stab them officer, so it’s okay, there’s no crime here!”

            Please, don’t see enemies where there are none. You have enough people who would disagree with you already, why are you insisting that I’m your/males enemy?

            I mean, seriously, how dare you put words in my mouth? I’m really quite offended. I’ve done literally NOTHING to you.

            I quote myself, replying to YOU earlier, “Actually, an erection doesn’t count as consent at all, that’s irrelevant (if it did, then a man could never be sexually abused by a woman against his consent, which simply isn’t true. Please don’t make a joke about that.)”. Don’t fucking try and make me your enemy. Why the fuck would you do that? It’s incredibly rude.

          • Mike

            You’re still at it finding a man guilty even before they’ve been to court and had a jury judge them. What do you think you are, prosecutor, judge and jury to decide a persons guilt all on your own. Just why do you have a problem with trying to get to the truth of an alleged crime, doesn’t the accused get his chance to give his evidence. Even if a man had actually had their phones recording what happened you would deny that evidence even being submitted in court.

            As for your example – a person in their home confronted with an armed intruder is quite within their rights to use a force because they felt threatened. He’ll give his reasons why he might have killed the intruder as is his right let alone trying to establish the truth and its no different for an ALLEGED rapist.

            As for your last paragraph, just where did I say or even imply that an erection on its own is consent, thats a lie coming from you and I’m offended ! Well not really as I expect that sort of distortion of the truth from some feminist and I don’t even need to get over it.

          • fmf

            Again, why are you insisting I think that all people accused of rape should be men?
            I was agreeing with you, that a subjective judgement of “did you believe they wanted it” is irrelevent in any decent court of law. I’m not saying there’s not other ways to prove someone’s innocence or guilt.

            That wasn’t my fucking example. My example was a stabbing. I now quote you, from earlier in this thread:
            “That’s as bad as the ‘reasonable force’ issue over protecting your home and family against intruders.” Why are you switching sides? Do you think this is a valid legal defence or not??

            For gods sake. I was clarifying something, the point was not what you said, but that I had explicitly stated that men can be raped, whilst you were accusing me of believing that men couldn’t be. It’s like arguing with a hamster.

          • Mike

            To quote you –

            “Personally I don’t think the viewpoint of the accused should come into
            it, if they are being accused, they clearly failed to get it right.”

            Whether its a man or a woman being accused of rape, they have every right to put their case forward to try and prove their innocence. You are saying they don’t have that right and have already made your mind up that just because an accusation was made, the accused got it wrong.

            There seems to be quite an explosion of women who cry rape these days for no rhyme nor reason and I guess the poor guy did get it wrong in those cases despite everything appearing alright on the night. Its a good job some guys record on their phones what happened and perhaps this is the way forward to prevent rape by insisting a recording is made and then there can be no doubt as to consent or not.

          • fmf

            And to quote me again, ” I’m not saying there’s not other ways to prove someone’s innocence or guilt.”. You can try and prove your innocence through whatever means but “I thought they wanted it” really shouldn’t count for anything.

            Honestly, you, as a man, are more likely to be raped than falsely accused. Think about that before worrying so much about the people reporting rapes.

          • Mike

            “I thought they wanted it” quite obviously isn’t a cop out if rape occurred but its an indication that a proper investigation should be made as it implies a misunderstanding and is therefore counts for a lot.

      • Tab Punching Bag

        The point is, most sexual encounters involve unambiguous communication. Most sexual encounters involve both parties saying ‘yes’ or acting in a way that clearly furthers the encounter (eg removing clothing) or something similar, and all of that serves as (at least in English law) unambiguous consent. Lack of protest does not serve as consent because if they’re too drunk or been drugged, they might not be in a position to not protest.

        • Tom M

          “…..Lack of protest does not serve as consent because if they’re too drunk
          or been drugged, they might not be in a position to not protest…..”
          That part interests me. If I can suggest that this is a woman who is claiming alcohol skewed the meaning of her responses then I think I would like to see some similar consideration for the man’s alcoholic state skewing his interpretation of a woman’s responses. That would be fair.

          • fmf

            Alcohol doesn’t make anyone irresponsible for their actions, it makes them unable to give consent.
            Look at it this way: It’s okay, sober or not, to have sex with a consenting (sober) person. It’s not okay, sober or not, to have sex with a consenting intoxicated person. You see?

            One’s breaking the law/doing something wrong, one isn’t.

          • Tom M

            ‘fraid I don’t. Given that here we are not talking about someone being dragged into the bushes by someone she hasn’t met before and that the circumstances would be more what you might find on some assignation after a night club spree.
            In one case the lady can claim that alcohol made her lack of clear consent open to misinterpretation. That means she is laying this lack of clear understanding on the alcohol she has consumed. She has just therefore been deemed to be irresponsible for her actions in this condition.
            In the other case the bloke cannot use his alcohol consumption as a reason he might have misunderstood her protest. He is not alllowed to be irresponsible.The fact that he could have misinterpreted her protestations because of alcohol would in all probability go against his case.
            That’s not fair. Now do you get it?

          • fmf

            So remind me, what has she done wrong? Had sex whilst drunk? Is that a crime? How easy would it really be to enforce that law, whilst protecting people plyed with acohol in order to be taken advantage of?
            Obviously, using these examples in the traditionally gendered manner, because it’s simpler, but please bear in mind this discussion could easily have reversed genders.
            So what he’s done wrong, is have sex with someone whilst drunk. As drunk people cannot legally consent, like a child can’t, that’s rape. They don’t have to press charges, but that’s the law. You are still responsible for breaking the law even whilst drunk.

    • fmf

      The law might disagree?
      But ethically, yes, you can communicate consent by dropping clothing, as long as the other person is also okay dropping theirs.

      And yeah, you’re right, thank you. ^_^

    • Mike

      The only way to make it clearer is to have an affidavit of consent, a video recording to ensure continued consent and a breathalyser to ensure it wasn’t given whilst under the influence. These classes do none of these things !

      • Liz

        No that’s the only way to protect yourself from a rape accusation, not the way to prevent a rape from occurring.

        • Mike

          But there lies the problem, some women have remorse the next day and accuse a man of rape when rape did not occur. In the eyes of a jury, the law and the man, he did not commit rape but some vindictive women seem to want to cry rape because they regretted the previous nights antics.

          In these situations, rape obviously never occurred and had these women actually used an affidavit of consent then even in their eyes rape would be prevented as it would be consensual sex. Think about it, if they had to hand out a consent form it would focus their minds on what they were about to do and rape could not occur.

          • Jackthesmilingblack

            Bad case of buyer’s remorse.

        • Gwangi

          Don’t worry, Liz, love – I suspect you will ever be perfectly safe from the attentions of all males of the species, unless they are very VERY drunk, in which case I think they deserve compensation for the trauma you would force on them…

    • Fergus Pickering

      And whispering, ‘I will ne’er consent,’ consented.

  • Saskia

    This article is ridiculous. Its not about saying ‘Yes, you may now engage in coitus with me’. It’s about a conversation with your sexual partner(s) to make sure everyone really wants to be there. What is unsexy or ridiculous about asking ‘does that feel good?’ or saying ‘Yeah i like that’ ? Lots of good sexual relationships already feature conversations like that, and that is all these workshops aim to make the norm. The people running these workshops aren’t asking people to make dry contractual agreements, just to make sure their sexual partners actually want to be there. So many people (mainly women) are subjected to sexual experiences that they dont want and could have got out of had their partners created a safe space before and during sex for them to say ‘actually, this doesn’t feel good for me, let’s stop.’
    He says its unsexy, but surely having sex with someone who doesn’t actually want to be there with you is far worse. The author makes it sound like nobody he has had sex with has given affirmative consent but for me that’s pretty inherent in good sex, if its good I/the other partner will be saying ‘yes, like that’, or if not ‘a bit to the left’ or ‘faster’ or whatever – that’s just good sexual practice.
    Rape and sexual abuse are incredibly prevelant at universities, and there is nothing wrong with having a chat with freshers about how to practice good consent. It actually leads to good sex and, way more importantly, helps prevent rape. If you can’t see why that’s important then you are part of the problem.

    • V Hale

      If you really think this ridiculous level of “affirmative consent” will help prevent rape then you need to get out more. I don’t know of anyone who in sexual relationships goes, “May I undo the top button of your blouse?” “Yes” right down to “May I undo the penultimate button of your blouse” followed by “last button” etc, and I can’t imagine anything taking the heat out of a moment quicker when people are engaging in passionate kissing on a bed or something than, “Can I move my hands down your back onto your arse?” and then if a girl has taken her knickers off and is grinding on a man’s hand the man then saying, “Can I put my fingers inside you?” What the actual hell? If this is the way feminists like to have sex then good for them, I’m not wanting to stop that obviously if it’s what gets you people off, but I’d rather you didn’t go imposing yourselves in the sex lives of everyone else.

      “The author makes it sound like nobody he has had sex with has given affirmative consent but for me that’s pretty inherent in good sex, if its good I/the other partner will be saying ‘yes, like that’, or if not ‘a bit to the left’ or ‘faster’ or whatever – that’s just good sexual practice. ”

      Yep and people have been doing this for years without classes from social engineers. And how this will “prevent rape” is beyond me. So yeah, I’m apparently part of the problem. I am probably considered a serial rapist myself and should be sentenced to the death penalty according to the Feminist Set of Rules. And yes, I’m a woman.

      • Matt Story

        Yes, you are part of the problem. You misunderstand and misrepresent the nuances of consent, and you fail to grasp how misunderstanding of consent is the cause of a lot of rapes. See the link in my comment above this one.

        • V Hale

          “you fail to grasp how misunderstanding of consent is the cause of a lot of rapes” – campus rape statistics use when someone is drunk as an example of rape whether they viewed it as rape or not. A lot of people, male and female have had sex they’ve regretted when they have been too drunk to consent but most just get over it and don’t appreciate you deciding what constitutes a rape and what they should and shouldn’t be traumatised by.

          • Matt Story

            We have things called LAWS that define rape. Perhaps you’ve heard of them? It has nothing to do with what I “decide”.

          • Fergus Pickering

            But supose the LAWS are stupid? We have many stupid laws. Or hadn’t you noticed? Mind you, anything that means less sex is probably a good thing. Much sex is a bloody disaster.

          • Matt Story

            If you think rape laws need changing, cool. A lot of people do. But that’s a different discussion.

          • Michael Barnes

            Actually it is not really a different discussion and should rather be part of the whole education process…. ‘The Law’ is an ass but this should hardly surprise us as even the law makers are not properly educated.

          • Fergus Pickering

            I do not consider laws of which I strongly disapprove to be binding on me. That makes me an anarchist. you might say. Pretty much. An anarchist who supports UKIP, that’s me.

          • fmf

            If someone is drunk and consents to sex it legally does count as rape, this is the law, you cannot legally give consent whilst intoxicated.

            Just because “most get over it” doesn’t mean that there are not people being plyed with alcohol, slept with and then feeling violated for the rest of their lives. Do you not want to protect these people? Would you not want your children to know that just because someone says okay when they are drunk that it doesn’t mean you accept their offer (because they might not truly want to)?

          • V Hale

            “If someone is drunk and consents to sex it legally does count as rape, this is the law, you cannot legally give consent whilst intoxicated.” – Wow so 99.9% of the population are rapists according to this daft definition. Better arrest men and women going home together after a night out as they’re both about to commit rape! People like you suck all the meaning out of words.
            “Would you not want your children to know that just because someone says okay when they are drunk that it doesn’t mean you accept their offer (because they might not truly want to)?” – I imagine by the time my “children” are drinking and having sex they will be able to work this out for themselves without your ilk telling them they’re not allowed to have sex while drunk or have sex with a drunk person ever.

          • fmf

            “Consent is also considered invalid if obtained under duress, or from a person who does not have the ability to understand the nature of the act, due to factors such as young age, mental disability, or substance intoxication”.

            I didn’t say that people had to press charges ^_^

            Will they though? That’s a big risk and assumption to make. Are you going to make sure they know that? That’s all those classes are about, making sure people know, because it’s too big a risk to not talk about.

          • V Hale

            “it’s too big a risk to not talk about” – and this is what’s frightening. You seem to believe that human relations are inherently about risk, and your comments are a window to a dystopian world where people have to have breathalysers on hand to be considered fit to have sex. You didn’t reply to my comment on whether it was right for a young alcoholic woman to have been jailed for insulting feminist Caroline Criado-Perez while very drunk, on Twitter? Because as I say, feminists were fully in favour of that.
            Essentially, humans are capable of exercising judgement in day to day relations and Marxist classes that recommend tick box exercises of when it’s ok to have sex or not fail to grasp the complexity of human interaction and relationships, and fuel a culture of distrust that just isn’t healthy.

          • fmf

            Yes, they are. They are about risk and trust and vulnerability and closeness, that’s what makes it so wonderful when it works.

            I didn’t see that comment, which is why I didn’t reply. But for the record, alcohol doesn’t excuse crimes. For example, death threats and rape.

            And a nature of blind trust is healthy and safe? I don’t believe that either. I believe trust is earnt, and we should help eachother to know how to be trustworthy and safe and not hurt eachother.

          • V Hale

            So someone can’t be trusted to decide to have sex when drunk yet insult a rich, influential and privileged feminist when drunk cos your have an illness, and you think they should be held responsible and thrown in jail. You’re making no sense.

          • fmf

            Whether drunk, or sober, it’s legal to have sex with a sober person, and it’s not legal to have sex with a drunk person.

            Whether drunk, or sober, it’s not okay to send death threats to someone.

            I’m making perfect sense. And let me reiterate, if two drunk people have sex, they are technically breaking the law, but that doesn’t mean they have to press charges against each other.

          • Gwangi

            On the other hand, why not just wear a camera in the end of your nobb – that way, when a local drunken feminut accuses you of raype, you can whip out the footage in court to show her wanting it and enjoying it on the night… CONSENT PROVEN. Then maybe a trial will take place to prosecute the woman for making false accusations? 10 years prison minimum sounds fair.
            This is the natural conclusion of this debate and may be a good thing (though any man setting up cameras in his bedroom will then get arrested for voyeurism!)

          • fmf

            If you were to do that, I’m afraid that wouldn’t get you off.

            It’s legally impossible to have sex whilst drunk, because you cannot give consent whilst drunk, in the same way someone who is underage cannot give consent.
            Their claim would be *entirely* valid, you would have committed rape. Their choice to press charges would be perfectly valid.

            You, as a man, are more likely to be raped than to be falsely accused. Think about that before you start throwing people who report rape under the bus.

          • Mike

            I suggest you re-phase that dumb statement, if someone is drunk and consents to sex it can only be rape if they subsequently say stop and their partner refuses. The mere fact of being intoxicated whilst having sex does NOT make it rape otherwise most in the country according to you would be rapists.

            It seems we already need an affidavit of consent to embark on a session, then we need a video recorder to ensure we have evidence of no change of heart during the session and we better have a breathalyser to hand to record that she was sober before and during the session. What else, perhaps we should install a condom machine and hire a lawyer as well just to make sure we’re safe from retributions !

          • fmf

            “Consent is also considered invalid if obtained under duress, or from a person who does not have the ability to understand the nature of the act, due to factors such as young age, mental disability, or substance intoxication”.

            I didn’t say people had to press charges, if they are okay with it when they regain sobriety i.e most of the time. But that doesn’t change the law.

            If your biggest concern here is the spectre of getting convicted as a rapist, don’t worry, the legal system barely works anyway, you’ll probably get away with rape, given that most victims feel too ashamed/blame themselves to speak up.

            If your concern was being a loving respectful sexual partner instead of a potential rapist however, that would be a different, ethical, matter. Apparently, you don’t care about anything except getting caught, cos that’s all you’re talking about right now.

          • Mike

            “Consent is also considered invalid …..blah, blah, blah” You say that but that’s not exactly what the law says.

            Now here’s a real life example for you to ponder on and judge both morally and legally. A close friend of mine has a 23 year old son who is in a care home because he is mentally disabled. Recently he has made very close friends with a mentally disabled girl in the same care home.

            I’m sure you can see where I’m going on this one as sooner or later and probably sooner, they’ll be jumping each others bones as being disabled doesn’t halt the hormones going rampant for either of them. Do we charge them both with rape ? In your version of the law we could as they are mentally disabled. Obviously we wouldn’t if it was consensual but how can two mentally disabled people give proper consent in your world. Even if one of them objected and it was a true rape, you’d have a hard job getting a guilty verdict on the ‘rapist’ as he/she was mentally disabled. So what is your view here if they engage in the ‘dirty’, is it rape BY EITHER OR BOTH ?

            I’m sure that these courses would be just as effective on this couple as a chocolate fireguard so whats your answer ?

            These issues are NOT black and white as you try to make out and trying to make it a negative consent without anything being said to that effect (like NO) is BS. Being under the influence of alcohol is no different TO MENTAL DISABILITY and in your post above you made mental disability, substance abuse & alcohol all reasons why consent shouldn’t be allowed under those circumstances.

            There’s a lot to be said for “On the job training” and I mean that in both senses of the expression for both men and women. Theory is all very well but is extremely limited in its ability to deliver what it purports to achieve. We’ve seen this in degrees people get for getting into Social Services that fail our kids time and time again.

            If as a motor mechanic I need training on a Rolls Royce, I don’t go to Ford for that training as the cars are different. Similarly, all men and all women are different and I don’t just mean between the sexes. A generalized course cannot train you for all the different partners out there and at some time you have to get on the job training. Just like any apprenticeship you’ll make the odd mistake and most people will learn from it. In life there will always be an idiot or two who will never learn and they’ll either lose their job as a motor mechanic or in the case of relationships, perhaps be charged with rape.

            Thats life and no amount of left wing indoctrination and claptrap will stop the very few minority.

            Please get rid of the chip on your shoulder and stop treating all men as guilty before they’ve even done anything !

          • fmf

            What do you mean my version of the law? You do realise this was in quotes right? That was for a reason.
            Again, if neither press charges, that’s okay. Though I’d say it’s important that they both have support so that they can keep themselves safe and emotionally healthy in the relationship.
            And if charges were pressed, it would probably result in sectioning if an individual was deemed mentally incompetant. According to a quick google search which you were fully capable of performing yourself.
            Black and white enough?

            I think that people’s bodily integretity is too important to risk hurting others if you make a mistake whilst “training on the job”.
            Um. no. Disagree entirely. People are the same when it comes to basic sexual conduct and communication. This is not about men.
            Again, your focused on “If they make a mistake, they may be charged with rape”, not “if they make a mistake, they will rape”. It shouldn’t make a difference if I risk being charged or not, I have bigger reasons for wanting to be a good communicator in the bedroom i.e not wanting to violate someone through my own ignorance.

          • http://i-squared.blogspot.co.uk/ Katabasis

            ” People are the same when it comes to basic sexual conduct and communication.”

            – They are? Really?

          • fmf

            Yeah…do we not all want to be treated with a level of respect and trust and communicated with? At a very basic level, I’m not implying everyone likes the exact same stuff in the bedroom, that would be stupid, you’re right.

          • Fergus Pickering

            A loving respectful partner. Do you get many girls that way? Have you heard of the transgressive boyfriend. Like Byron or Dracula?

          • fmf

            I’m in a committed relationship right now, so…
            And I aim to be a loving and respectful partner myself, as does my boyfriend.

          • Lydia Robinson

            What if both parties are intoxicated? Who is raping whom?

          • Mike

            Exactly, being intoxicated and having sex should not in itself automatically be rape and similarly one or both partners being mentally disabled doesn’t automatically make it rape. You have to take other factors into consideration to make a judgment call into whether rape actually occurred.

          • fmf

            Both are breaking the law. And they both have the choice to press charges, which would be interesting in court. But I imagine they wouldn’t.

          • Kenneth O’Keeffe

            what if both parties are plastered? Do do think they should make a complaint about rape/sexual assault against eachother?! Jesus!

          • fmf

            If both parties are plastered and both regret it the next morning, and decide to press charges, I guess that would result in an interesting court case.

          • Gwangi

            Incredibly, this is true – so discrimination against men is written into our laws.
            I’d also like to see more women arrested for secksual assault. I have seen girls grasping the sensitive areas of young men in bars, grabbing their bu-m etc – which is way less than DLT did to get 3 months suspended prison.
            I look forward to a feminist campaign for full gender equality in the law which will lead to many more women being convicted as they will no longer be treated more gently and leniently than men (yeah right…)

          • fmf

            I’d like to see less sexual assault full stop. More people being convicted is only stage one of reducing the actual rates of the crime.
            If you really think there’s a political campaign where the sole point/end is to get more people convicted, you’ve so massively underestimated our politics that you should be ashamed.

          • Fergus Pickering

            But how drunk ia drunk? Some girls are drunk most of the time.

          • fmf

            Then don’t have sex with those women? How hard is that?
            Drunk is drunk. If someone’s honestly never sober, they have a problem and you shouldn’t be fucking them anyway, you should be getting them serious help.

          • Fergus Pickering

            Perhaps you’re pissed too. There’s a lot of it about.

          • fmf

            I’ve already covered that if two drunk people have sex it’s illegal because intoxicated people cannot consent, and and so technically both parties would have grounds to press charges of rape.

            And yes, alcohol is plentiful, however most of us manage to go about our days not pissed out of our skulls, somehow.

          • Fergus Pickering

            Yes but we are not talking about most people. We are talking about the dissolute and immoral, are we not?

          • fmf

            No, we are not, because everyone has the capacity to violate others, and simplifications like “only the dissolute and immoral” only stigmatise the issue further and make it harder to tackle the actual crime.

          • Fergus Pickering

            I see that irony is a concept foreign to you. I rather thought it might be.

          • fmf

            It’s the fucking internet hun what did you really expect me to think? Do you want to explain said “irony”, or are you only going to sit back and feel superior now because you threw that word out?

          • Katherine

            Wtf. Being “too drunk to consent” shouldn’t be something you accept or “get over” – a mistake of misjudging your alcohol limit shouldn’t have unwanted sex (i.e. rape) as a price. That’s the whole point of the laws on what does or does not constitute consent and rape.
            Yes sometimes two very drunk people have sex and later regret it, which is a mistake. That is not the same as one drunk person having sex with a more sober person who made the choice to ignore their partner’s drunken state, even if it was obvious – that is not a mistake.

          • Mike

            And many couples have had sex whilst drunk and enjoyed it. There is no set pattern here as each sexual encounter is unique and you can’t make generalizations over sober & sober, sober & drunk or drunk and drunk couples having sex.

            I would argue that far more couples (men and women) are more likely to accept that it wasn’t that great when drunk and next time they’ll stay a bit more sober than have a hang up and a chip on their shoulder.

          • Gwangi

            But that is a red herring and it infantilises women. In law, you CANNOT use alcohol as an excuse for ANY other crime, or situation, so why in raype cases? Responsibility is SHARED so a drunk man bo-nkin a drunk woman is NOT the R word.
            The woman has a choice – if her choice is to get SO drunk she is easy, then so be it.

            People get hurt when drunk and they create the context r bad things to happen – ask ANY man and they will recognise that. Boys have bad experiences in bed too, y’know!

            You want ALL power to be with the female party and to blame ALL men on a woman’s say so. NO, NO, NO! But WHAT if that boy is YOUR SON r BROTHER eh?
            Use some COMMON SENSE and BE REASONABLE – human life is messy, not some feminist pity party workshop, love. Deal with it.

          • Katherine

            You may be a part of the problem, but you’ve also suffered at the hands of it if you think you should “get over” sex that’s happened when you’re too drunk to consent (rape).

          • V Hale

            I’ve “suffered” have I? What is with feminists wanting to tell people how to feel? Why when you’re meant to be standing up for women’s rights do you instead want to force all women into a state of perpetual victimhood? Most women in their 30s, 40s and 50s, and men have drunken nights of sex in their past which they may regret but haven’t let “damage” them and don’t consider suffering. You seem to *want* women to suffer. People make mistakes and learn from them.
            I’m curious as to whether you were part of the feminist crowd who cheered when a young woman who is an alcoholic was jailed for “trolling” Cristina Criado-Perez while incredibly drunk. Criado-Perez, an incredibly privileged middle class white woman gets a working class alcoholic jailed, and feminists cheered. Why?

          • Mike

            There are many levels of consent or non consent when people are drunk and your generalizing again. Its never that simple unless you wish to take the line that any alcohol drunk by either party automatically makes it rape by the other party.

            If you used that definition you then get into the ludicrous situation that both parties who have been drinking are both guilty of rape.

          • Jackthesmilingblack

            Come on luv, when Madame starts to knock them back, it’s a sure sign that “tonight’s the night”. Women are so devious, always preparing their fall back position. “You seduced me, you took advantage of me.”
            “May I remind you Madame, that you spent half the night on top of me.”
            Consumate the relationship stone cold sober, gimme a break: The unrealistic conjecture of a rape trial. Women need to grasp that quid pro quo component of a physical heterosexual relationship. The gentleman friend need to be regularly serviced to keep him on side. If you find that distasteful, get used to holding each other’s hand.

          • Mike

            I think most women do grasp the quid pro quo component of a physical heterosexual relationship and it would be ludicrous for a woman to cry rape if she was the one on top but I doubt that happens at all.

            The only problem I see here is there are a handful at most of militant feminists who have a very big chip on their shoulder about men and want to spoil it for the majority of men and women who go with the flow. None of us denies that rape happens occasionally but it certainly isn’t black or white as they are truing to make it out to be.

            I would suggest to those feminists here, they draft up their own consent forms complete with caveats & get out of sex clauses and then get their date to sign it as soon as they meet. Publish it on a web site and then any woman or man who feels vulnerable can download it and ‘be legally protected’ from unwelcome advances. They better bring along a breathalyser as well to test the partner before he/she signs the consent form.

            Meanwhile, 99% of heterosexuals (or gays for that matter) can continue as before ‘learning on the job and honing their sexual skills’ whether sober or drunk, high on pot or whatever !

          • Jackthesmilingblack

            “it would be ludicrous for a woman to cry rape if she was the one on top but I doubt that happens at all.”
            Doubt away.
            Try this; you wake up to find your dick in your girl friend’s younger sister’s mouth. Now would that be rape or cruelty to animals?

          • Mike

            Who knows what the feminist would make of it but I’m sure the man would be guilty of something ! Its rape if your drunk, mentally disabled and presumably if your asleep at the time !

          • Jackthesmilingblack

            you’re

          • fmf

            If you are waking up, it can be assumed that you were unconscious, therefore, you’ve been sexually violated, yes. That would be rape.

          • fmf

            Is that satire? Are you pretending to be the moustache twirling fifties-style sexist? Cos if so, you’ve done a brilliant job!!

          • Liz

            He’s pretending to be a likely rapist.

          • Fergus Pickering

            No moustaches in the fifties. You’e thinking of Edwardians.

          • Jackthesmilingblack

            Start wearing a black hat and grow a moustache.

          • Fergus Pickering

            Back in the Seventies I had a moustache. The women, I broke them up like meringues. Now I have a beard and they have nothing to fear.

          • Movies Online

            Why do you think that someone should go to counselling for the rest of their life because they got so drunk they couldn’t make a rational decision like say someone who drove a car while over the limit?

          • V Hale

            I think they have an ideological desire to have as many people under the “victim” banner as possible and want to keep them there. Like someone nearly thirty years ago having their breasts touched for a few seconds is now a “traumatised” “victim”. Not a bit as traumatised as the guy going to jail and having lost his house in legal fees over the whole affair. When I was 14 and walking to school late because I’d been to the dentist, a guy in a track suit was running and suddenly started running towards me and I was terrified, he grabbed my chest then ran on. I was a bit shaken but within a couple of hours I laughed it off. Feminists would prefer it if it had ruined my entire life and I had “PTSD” from the event. I cannot even imagine the warped mindset of people who would pursue a police case for this sort of thing.

        • Mike

          You need to get a reality check and a proper perspective in defining mutual consent as its more about body language than words. But if you lack the ability to read body language perhaps you need to create a consent form to cover your ass !

          • Matt Story

            Please copy and paste the place where I said consent has to be verbal and/or written.

        • http://i-squared.blogspot.co.uk/ Katabasis

          “the nuances of consent”

          Hahahahahahahaha, oh god. Haahahahahahahahaha *takes breath* hahahahahahahahaha.

          This isn’t a postmodern essay contest, Matt.

          • Matt Story

            Is your argument really LOL U USE BIG WORDS or do you have something meaningful to say?

      • Saskia

        *sigh*
        Clearly not read anything I wrote. It’s obviously not about constantly going ‘can i undo the top button of your top’ then ‘can i undo the second button’ etc. Its just checking in a couple of times with your partner. Affirmative consent is pretty obvious during a good sexual encounter, it’s as simple as an enthusiastic ‘yes’. Stop twisting what this is about, it just makes you look ignorant.
        You seem to have this idea of students sat in a lecture theatre being dryly talked at by professors about sex. What actually happens in small groups of freshers talk with other students (members of the student union, women’s officers or welfare officers) who together discuss consent and learn from each other.
        I obviously haven’t assumed you are a serial rapist, you’re just being idiotic. However, You’ve (probably intentionally) misunderstood consent and made consent seem unsexy and ridiculous, rather than quick, easy, sexy and NECESSARY. So yeah, you are part of the problem.

        • V Hale

          “What actually happens in small groups of freshers talk with other students (members of the student union, women’s officers or welfare officers) who together discuss consent and learn from each other. ”
          It sounds even worse than a lecture! Jesus Christ. I’d rather be visited by groups of Jehova’s Witnesses every day for 5 hours for a month than have a bunch of smug lefty “women’s officers” and “welfare officers” lecture me, and have to talk about sex with a group of freshers I don’t know from Adam. Sex is still a private thing for many people and not something where we want a group of feminists jumping in and telling us what to think.

          • Brendan O’Neil fan club

            yes of course every ‘lefty’ is anti rape. GOD how awful the left are. The ‘right’ point to make there. well done

          • fmf

            It’s half a fucking hour, and if you aren’t mature enough to have that “lecture” then honestly you probably shouldn’t be having sex.

          • EricHobsbawmtwit

            Yes when I was at University we had a half hour lecture from a health droid, mostly about drinking too much. After the lecture we went to the SU and got absolutely battered for £1.50.

            What we needed wasn’t a seminar on the perils of the contents of ladies bloomers, it was a seminar on how to actually get anywhere near a woman’s bloomers without being told to sod off. It turns out it’s a very tricky manoeuvre and needs a great deal of practice to get right.

          • Mike

            Nice to see a bit of hilarity here and I concur. Preety much every young man could benefit with a course on seduction when they’re young and naive.

          • fmf

            Yes, but that’s your choice and your health.
            This isn’t a seminar about the dangerous contents of women’s underwear, you halfwit, it’s about communication in sex. If you honestly think those are synonmous subjects, no wonder you find it so tricky to get in anyone’s pants.

          • http://i-squared.blogspot.co.uk/ Katabasis

            Brilliant, so you’re now moving from dictating how people should have sex to *who* should be having it. And on the basis of attendance at a re-education session.

            Gods give me strength.

          • fmf

            Yep, my word is law and I am supreme dictator, nothing I say is just a judgement.

            Do YOU think that people who can’t handle a 30 minute talk on sex should really be having sex?

          • Fraziel

            Utter drivel of course. So now people who think the lecture is ludicrous, unneccessary, pointless ,stalinist nannying, and there will be many, arent mature enough to have sex? deary deary me.

          • fmf

            OH my god I’m so hurt, I truly thought everyone would love my opinion and agree with me!!! :O :O You really mean you don’t agree??

          • Fraziel

            sadly though your little tantrum resulted in you expressing your ridiculous opinion,and you know your comment was ridiculous only too well i imagine, by writing hyperbolic sh*te.

          • fmf

            my comment was a strongly expressed opinion, amazingly, sometimes that involves swearwords.

            My hyperbolic response was merely attempting to reveal to you the ridiculousness of your comment which assumed I A) cared what you thought of my opinion and B) was under any illusions about thinking you’d agree.
            Opinions are not something you express expecting a review. You do not need to review my opinion, you can attempt to influence it, but you know you can’t, so you resort to attempting to shame me for it. Newsflash, you really can’t.

          • Fraziel

            It was a strongly worded moronic opinion implying, stupidly and incorrectly that people who didnt want to attend this pointless, unhelpful, unneccassary course organized by stalinist feminazis were somehow immature and therefore not ready to have sex. Absolutist, infantile tripe.Read my comment then read yours. I think its blindingly obvious whose was ridiculous, and it wasnt mine.

          • fmf

            Is it not immature to be unable to stand talking about sex in a frank and educational manner? Is it not immature to think of oneself as more informed/rational than the university board that put these talks in place?
            Should people who are this immature be having sex? According to you, yes, according to me, no. That’s okay.

            Also I have 3 upvotes, you have one, I win.

        • Fraziel

          What nonsense. You do not need to check in with your partner, if you try something she doesnt like or want she will say no. You then stop. Thats worked for adults for thousands of years. I would hope the students would have the good sense to refuse to go to these meetings and see them for the condescending, unnecessary, annoying bollocks that they are. If they do have to go i do hope they point out what a waste of time it is and if some bitter, miserable feminists who want to takle the fun out of sex dont like it then tough sh*t. Most people will hopefully ignore it and see it for the nannying nonsense it is

          • Saskia

            If by ‘worked for adults for thousands of years’ you mean has resulted in thousands, if not millions of women, being raped every year for thousands of years, then yeah sure its worked brilliantly.
            It’s not ‘attending classes on it’ – it is going to ONE workshop in freshers week. I’ve been to these talks actually and they weren’t condescending, or unnecessary, or annoying. Everyone I talked to who had been found it useful. I dont see how you can all comment upon something which you have no idea about. It’s not about ‘bitter, miserable feminazis taking the fun out of sex’ – its about making sure that when people have sex it is great and wanted by everyone.
            If you are unconcerned by how many young women are sexually assaulted every year in our universities then I think you’re disgusting. If you think consent is some leftist bullshit feminizai preserve of women then you’re disgusting. Consent is something EVERYONE – men and women – need to know about and practice. It’s not about a minority of feminist women demanding this, it’s the LAW. Without affirmative consent, it is rape. And the absence of a ‘no’ is not the same as a ‘yes’
            I actually feel really sorry for all your previous sexual partners. Everyone against this seems to think getting an affirmative ‘yes’ is a really lengthy, boring, difficult process. Perhaps that’s because nobody has really enjoyed being with you. The presence of a ‘yes’ or ‘yeah like that’ etc. isn’t exactly difficult to get when your partner is having a good time and wants to be there.

          • Mike

            No one has an issue with mutual consent, the problem is you feminists are demanding affirmative consent but are clueless over how to achieve that in a legal sense. Mutual consent as we have known it previously, has worked very well in 99% of encounters but your daft ideas for that 1% where perhaps it didn’t work too well will just spoil it for everyone.

            Just like many other pressure groups riding their “hobby horses” and ranting, they rarely solve any problems for the real victims but make a right dogs dinner for the majority.

            You go on and on about the LAW, well if that’s your main concern, perhaps you can enlighten us on an appropriate and legally binding mechanism where we can meet affirmative consent in the eyes of the law.

          • Fraziel

            Millions of women being raped had nothing to do with men being ill informed on consent, they knew very well it wasnt consent and thats why its rape. I didnt say or even imply i am unconcerned about women on campus being raped so dont put words into my mouth.

            I dont think consent is leftist bullshit, i think its incredibly important, but i think being forced to go on an utterly pointless, condescending course designed by stalinist femi nazis who appear to have no clue what so ever on how this pointless rubbish will ruin and spoil the sex lives of intelligent adults who are more than capable of saying no and understanding what no means without going on a f*cking course, is appalling. The fact you dont see it tells me just how utterly inexperienced you are in all aspects of life, not just sexual.

            I have never had “affirmative” consent from any of my sexual partners, and there have been several, and i didnt rape anyone so to say you need affirmitive consent is utter sh*te to be honest. This is yet another made up phrase by feminists to suit their ludicrous sexual agenda. I had never heard of it until i read your guff and i wish i hadnt.

            And dont feel sorry for my sexual partners, every one ,without exception, enjoyed themselves, including the girl tonight who wants to come back on monday. The fact you have to resort to such petty personal attacks shows what a non existent pitiful argument you have. Go away. You are ruining sex and taking the fun out of it for everyone you horrible little feminazi.

          • Liz

            A surprising number of men don’t understand consent. Galloway thinks you don’t need consent for every insertion. Assange’s acolytes don’t think you need consent if you’ve previously had sex with a woman. Frat boys think if you’ve consented to have sex with one you’ve consented to it with all. The Ecuadorian parliamentarians don’t think you need to wake a woman up to get consent. Plenty of religious men think marriage implies consent. Plenty of misogynists don’t think you need consent from a woman you’ve paid, or from a girlfriend or ex-girlfriend or a girl who’s flirted with you. A lot more besides think that a woman’s clothing is consent. And laddish students don’t give a fuck, it’s just surprise sex.

          • Fraziel

            “Frat boys think if you’ve consented to have sex with one you’ve consented to it with all”

            Now thats what i call a ridiculous generalisation if ever i heard one. I just hope students refuse to attend this nonsense and if they are forced to, treat it with the contempt it deserves.

          • Gwangi

            An unsurprising number of mental feminut manhaters don’t understand the concept of EVIDENCE in law, and nor do they quite get what reasonable behaviour and reasonable assumptions are.
            Want to prevent misunderstandings? Encourage girls to stay sober and aware of their surroundings.
            I give the same advice to boys too – because lots of self-pitying mental liar women will get drunk, have it off, then scream the R word from the rafters.

          • Lydia Robinson

            Why don’t they just ban sex on campus to avoid problems? When I was at Uni, freshers were all put into single sex halls of residence and porters patrolled the corridors to ensure that no members of the opposite sex were in students’ rooms after a certain hour. If we’re going to be Victorians, we might as well do it properly.

          • Liz

            He means it works brilliantly for the white heterosexual male.

          • Gwangi

            White? I think you’ll find ethnic minorities in the US and UK are disproportionately highly represented in R word cases.

          • Fraziel

            why do you think that is? i beleive in 2011 or 2012 52% of all crimes committed in the US that were classed as violent were committed by Africa americans. I am curious as to why that might be. Its an incredible statistic. And no, it isnt anything to do with poverty or deprivation.

          • fmf

            Glad it works for you, but actually in human history there’s been a lot of rape, so that doesn’t really work. Some people need these classes. Some people would be raping people without realising.

            Yeah, asking people and making sure they communicate their wishes because you care about them is so horrible.

          • Fraziel

            People would be raping without realising? Really? what percentage and why do we all have to be subjected to this rubbish because a TINY minority, and it is tiny, dont know how to behave properly? It is totally unneccessary and frankly leftist,feminist nannying nonsense.

          • Mike

            Historically rape in history came from two main directions neither of which is in anyway connected to the discussion here.

            Firstly, women were treated as possessions by men to do with as they please which obviously included unsolicited sex and secondly we had to the victor goes the spoils where the females of the losing side were treated as sex slaves.

            Nowadays in the west we’ve pretty much removed those obscene notions that women are chattels and can be used and abused. In Islamic countries and communities unfortunately that isn’t the case as has been seen in the middle east and Rotherham. It would be a slam dunk to fix the issues that Rotherham brought up if there was a political will as those abuses were rape of the very worst kind and nothing like implied consent under the influence that is being claimed as rape.

            It always amazes me that activists in certain areas instead of taking on very real and easily proven criminal acts choose to ignore them but invent major social issues over trivial matters that can be worked out easily without recourse to over kill.

          • fmf

            Rape/ sexual assault = sexual intimacy without legitimate consent.

            Things that can delegitimise consent: (Among other things) alcohol, coercion, mental illness, age, and deception.

            Things that are shitty to do: Rank rape in terms of “better” and “worse”. Use problems in other countries to ignore problems in a home country. Act as if people can’t care about more than one cause at once, and that caring about one cause defeats another.

          • Mike

            No quotes here I see and you’re very clear in stating that sex with or between mentally disabled people is non consensual.

            So what do we do when my friends son and his new love start humping each other, is sectioning really your solution !

          • fmf

            Like I said before, just because something classes as illegal, doesn’t mean both or either of the parties involved have to press charges. Each mentally disabled party should really have close support to make sure everything is okay though, or else that situation is liable to go sour.

          • Mike

            You’re ducking the issue here as originally you said that sexual relations with a mentally disabled person along with someone who is drunk was rape. Now you’re back pedaling by suggesting they have support.

            What does that mean, Is it that people who are do not have their full faculties need a third party to supervise them ?

          • Fraziel

            whay shouldnt there be degrees of rape? There are degrees of assault, degrees of murder. What makes rape different? why should it be treated differently and what makes it so special that it should be?I have no doubt that the feminist view point that nothing a woman ever does has made it more likely she will be raped, results in more woman being raped.

          • Liz

            88,000 rapes a year in the UK and women living with fewer liberties than men because of it isn’t what I call a trivial matter. Maybe that’s one of the benefits of being an oblivious male with his head up his ass.

          • Mike

            Based on the statistics at Rotherham and including many other cities, over half of these 88,000 were almost certainly committed by men from just 5% of the population. Not only that, there’s no question that those rapes had aything to do with misunderstandings, uniformed consent or alcohol related so perhaps we should deal with the real problem first before honing in on date rape.

            Which is your priority, dealing with an 11 year old being gang raped or a 21 year old having remorse after getting wasted and the engaging in sex ?

          • Liz

            Oh the morning after remorse myth so beloved of you people. How is that even a thing? What woman wakes up after having sex and feels remorse? Remorse for what? What are you – a fucking Sharia judge?

            So much remorse that she’ll go and report a fake crime, get internally examined, sit around a police station for hours, leave her clothes and samples behind, spend months preparing for a trial which by all accounts is humiliating and completely traumatic. You have a low opinion of women if you think that’s their idea of a fun year.

            I know it’s a challenging idea, but maybe, just maybe, what with rape being an under reported not over reported crime, women are telling the truth.

          • Mike

            I love women and have more female friends than male ones but there are some women who seem to enjoy having a guys reputation trashed by crying rape.

            Its obviously some sort of power trip for them as they keep their anonymity whilst they get their own back on a guy they felt did a “wham bam, thank you maam” on them, but rape it isn’t. They’re attention seekers who are mentally disturbed and probably welcome all the attention they get when crying rape. Thank goodness they are in the minority but they hardly do any good for women who are genuinely raped.

            Perhaps thats why the SS managers and Police in Rotherham dismissed the rape claims from those poor underage girls !

          • Fraziel

            Any woman who is found to have falsely accused anyone of rape should be jailed.

          • Mike

            Couldn’t agree more but in this upside down world of natural justice it isn’t going to happen.

          • Liz

            A woman has just been jailed for three and a half years for making a false rape accusation.

            But the majority of acquittals for rape don’t mean the woman lied, they mean he got away with it.

          • Mike

            Out in 1 year and no criminal sex record to worry about. The man would have got 10 years minimum plus a sex criminal record. No comparison !!!

          • Fergus Pickering

            Do you think she should have been let off, Liz?

          • Liz

            No, but I think she should have been given a suspended sentence like ol’ Dave Lee Molester.

          • Fergus Pickering

            Her crime seems to me much more severe than touching a breast. I once, quite inadvertently, touched the breasts of Elizabeth Taylor. I don’t know how Burton was on breasts.

          • Fraziel

            i would , for once. probably go along with that. The question is why is that the case? Its probably a variety of reasons but one of them will be the level of drunkenness involved with the person raped or both parties. Thats the bottom line and no getting away with it. Until feminists acknowledge that then you cant look seriously at solving this issue.

          • Liz

            They are.

            Which is more than you can say for 94% of rapists.

          • Gwangi

            No, they are NOT. Most women liars get a suspended sentence in the RARE instances that further action is taken.
            Yet again, eejit feminut, you assume ALL accusations or raype PROVE it happened. This LIE statistic that only 6% of raypes lead to conviction. NOT TRUE. It is 6% of ACCUSATIONS and that is QUITE different.
            Are you think or just a raving manhater loon? Can’t you tell the difference between opinion and facts backed by physical evidence?

          • Fraziel

            Really? please enlighten me as to why that is so and how you know thats correct. I have no doudt that the feminist argument that women could never ever have done anything that would have minimised the risk results in more women being raped.

          • Liz

            There very well might be a tiny proportion of women who want to trash a mans reputation (not that a rape conviction does that in dudesville, hello Ched Evans), but that has precisely nothing to do with your superstitious notion of regretful sex now does it. So shut up.

          • Mike

            You’re completely clueless what a rape accusation can do to a man. It can destroy his career, it can make him a pariah and a social outcast and thats when he’s innocent of rape.

            Are you seriously suggesting some women don’t have regretful sex as most men will attest they have on occasion !

            Get real !

          • Liz

            Rape is a vastly UNDER reported crime not over reported. It’s estimates that 4% of accusations are false, same for every other type of crime. That isn’t the issue, the issue is that thousands of rapists are getting away with it every year. Switch focus to where the real problem is.

          • Mike

            Not true, some of those underage girls in Rotherham reported gang rape for goodness sakes but the PC fascists on the left refused to investigate and it was women like Joyce Thacker as well as men who brushed it under the carpet. So much for looking after young people of your own sex.

            As for date rape, which is the subject really under discussion, unless you have a video recording of what happened, collecting evidence is nigh on impossible. Its one word against the others and the fact that sex may have occurred does not make it rape.

            Where there has been video or audio evidence, it has ALWAYS exonerated the man from committing rape, I wonder why that is, do you ?

          • Gwangi

            And around 25%+ of trials lead to conviction – the same as for other crimes.
            Now, you are surely not suggesting you’d be prepared to lock up boys and men just on the say-so of drunken women, are you? Coz I think most mothers, wives, daughters would disagree with you there.

            In fact, female jury members are LESS likely than male ones to find a male raype suspect guilty.

            EVIDENCE is always needed for a conviction in our legal system – if you don’t like that, go somewhere where evidence is fabricated and innocent men locked up all the time (Russia, China, any Muslim country).

          • Fraziel

            estimated by whom? the same people who gave you your other staistsics?

          • Gwangi

            Yes, and INCREDIBLY, if a woman have previously been found GUILTY of lying in a court situation, falsely accusing a man of raype, if she does it again against another man, her record of lying cannot be told to the jury. Wow!

          • Gwangi

            ‘you people’?
            Now then, what do you mean here, petal?
            Do you mean, YOU PEOPLE, you nasty men who are all Raypists anyway.
            Or do you mean YOU RAYPISTS.
            Either way, it makes you sort of a bit mental and thick, innit?
            Please do tell us why you hate the male of the species so? Was daddy a bit close maybe? Or did boys reject and laugh at you?

          • Liz

            You still dressing up as your mummified mother?

          • Gwangi

            Actually, I know of a case where a girl woke up with a guy, then had it off with him again, and stayed for breakfast, then only later, after her brain had been infected by manhating feminist virus spread by weirdos like you, started telling people she believed she had been a victim of the R word. The university took the case seriously and ruined a young man’s life for a year before being thrown out and the young man was rightly reinstated. Fair?

          • Liz

            Of course you do. Like any woman has ever confided in you about anything at all, you creep.

          • Fraziel

            88000? was that 88000 convictions or reports? how many were rapists who knew they were raping? how many was some inexperienced bloke putting his hands on a girls tits and getting the brush off? How many were the result of not having informed consent? Any? the figures i read were it was ESTIMATED to be 69000 rapes over 2 YEARS. i would , by the way, rather be an oblivious male with my head up my ass than a stalinist feminazi.

          • Liz

            Those are rapes, not sexual or indecent assaults or “some guy putting his hands on some girls tits and getting the crush off” as you so revealingly put it. The figure for assaults in much much higher.

          • Gwangi

            No – that is your Fawcett Society made-up number – NOT a real number backed up with evidence. I learnt long ago never to trust anyone, men or women, say about such things.
            But far better than classes to enrich the feminists industry and attempt to demonise all males, may I suggest something effective, free and practical. Girls, DON’T GET SO BLOTTO DRUNK – then you’ll be more aware AND if there is then a misunderstanding, you can JUST SAY NO rather than slurring yes…

          • Fraziel

            I repeat how many were rapists who knew they were raping and what tiny percentage were due to not having verbal consent? You endlessly quoting that figure is meaningless unless you can say what the specific number is for verbal consent as that is what the article and this discussion is about. I am not sure what is revealing about my comment either. Is it revealing that i think you are talking bollocks and cant back up anything you say?

            it is a normal part of life that occasionally someone might incorrectly interpret signals. It is incredibly rare and has happened to me only twice in my entire life and i am 47.Both times i got the message and stopped.If you do interpret something wrongly, the other person says no, and you stop. Its not an assault, although the bitter man hating feminazis might like to think so. Its just normal life. If you carry on then its assault and nobody needs to go on a course to be told that and hopefully most intelligent people will ignore what they are told on the course and not ask for verbal consent.

            Maybe just women should go so that they can learn to give verbal consent every single time. The men can then decide if its sufficiently irritating or not that they want to end the encounter and leave.Fair compromise?

          • Liz

            By the way, that’s lucky because that’s where your head is you hyperbolic would-be censor with literally no sense of proportion.

          • Fraziel

            Now this is funny, being accused of hyperbole by a feminist. As someone with a fairly libertarian outlook who believes in freedom of speech i object to being called a would-be-censor. I suspect you think censorship is highly appropriate when it suits you. If not, you will be the first feminist in history who doesnt.Hypocrite.

          • Gwangi

            You have NO evidence for that number – it is your opinion and you PARROT it from Fawcett Society misandrist propaganda. The number of cases leading to conviction is roughly the same as for other crimes – so about right really, it seems.
            You really do need to study the basics of law – it is based on EVIDENCE not on believing ALL males accused by females of the R word are guilty. Usually, it’s 6 of one half a dozen of the other; misunderstandings happen when people are young and drunk.
            It is misogynist and disrespectful to women to assume we must infantalise them and assume the man is always at fault.
            Most people, males included, have less than ideal experienced – but men don’t use the R word to describe them; many women do because they want to be victims, get sympathy, get compo, get revenge against men (very common that last one).

          • Fergus Pickering

            If he has his head up his arse then you have nothing to fear, Liz.

          • Jackthesmilingblack

            Liz, you`ve put your finger on the knub. Authority wants more convictions for rape/accepting a caution, both as a percentage and as a raw number. All part of the drive to give every adult male residing in UK a criminal record. So hate it and leave it Britisher pals, as a criminal record will surely compromise your chances of a friendly reception when you do fly the coop. We don`t do feminism here, only feminine.
            Jack, Japan

          • Fergus Pickering

            Supposing you don’t go to the classes. What can they do? Supposing you go to the classes and go to sleep?

          • Gwangi

            Then you’re really f-cked!

          • Fraziel

            Thst what people should be encouraged to do. Good idea, take a power nap to help with all that late night studying.

          • Fergus Pickering

            A power nap? I take those all the time. I feel the surge.

          • fmf

            Then at least the university tried. I don’t know how they enforce other compulsory lectures, like fire talks, but I imagine they’d react in the same way.

        • Mike

          Of course there’s one major element that you and other feminists have overlooked and thats the relative experience of each partner in a sexual encounter. Quite obviously if the guy is inexperienced and she’s ‘been around’ a bit he’ll probably be the one whose nervous and tentative let alone knowing how to read body signals.

          Likewise the opposite is true if the man is experienced and the woman isn’t.

          It is NOT one size fits all even if my choice of words may be inappropriate !

          • Liz

            He sounds like the perfect candidate for consent classes then. Rather than learning by consent trial and error on the job as this moron blogger recommends.

      • Mike

        Nope, you’re a normal guy in my book who would stop if told to but if the woman doesn’t communicate back to you, you do the best you can. Lets be honest here, I don’t believe most women have to have a screaming orgasm shouting her head off to enjoy sex and for a man its very difficult to tell some times if he’s ‘connected’ with her or not.

        • Guest

          .

        • V Hale

          I thought you were one of the feminists and saying I must be male and making up that I’m female and disagree with the feminist brigade so I made this sign to show otherwise

          http://i.imgur.com/mKwSu5y.jpg

          but now I feel bad because you weren’t one of the feminist troll brigade so please forgive the “fuck you”. Whoops!

        • fmf

          If “the woman” doesn’t communicate back to you then you, despite your best efforts, it doesn’t sound like she’s feeling very comfortable and that probably explains why your female sexual partners aren’t all having screaming orgasms.

          What’s this about “connections” in quotation marks? If someone has an orgasm, trust me, they will let you know. If not, they haven’t. Simple as.

          • Mike

            That’s complete BS as my wife has a problem in that she can’t shout or scream for some physical reason. There’s nothing actually wrong with her other than something about her vocal chords but she’s the first to admit she’s not a ‘screamer’ during sex.

            It doesn’t bother me in the slightest that she’s not screaming out to me but we get along fine doing the dirty ! Obviously those on a first time encounter may not have any clear signals to judge what is happening and it will take a little time to work it out.

            If she has a tongue in her mouth she should speak up if there’s a problem.

          • fmf

            Sure she does.
            I bet you do.
            Sure, anyone having sexual dysfunction would speak up, we’re all confident enough to do that tactfully, right?? (not right. Sex is hard to talk about critically.)

            In all seriousness, I asked you about people communicating about their orgasms, I didn’t say that it had to be during coitus.

          • Fraziel

            “If someone has an orgasm, trust me, they will let you know. If not, they haven’t.”

            Not true at all. Everyones different and i have been with women who have orgasmed and its been hard to tell, others blindingly obvious.

          • fmf

            If it was hard to tell, how do you know? Because they let you know. This is my point.

      • fmf

        Why is a “girl” having sex with a “man” anyway? Peadophilic language much?

        And seriously, re-read it. You’re massively misrepresenting what people are asking for.
        And yes, women can rape, and you shouldn’t have sex with someone without (casually) offering them a way out and being very receptive to what they want either.

        • V Hale

          Hello there word police! Yes I was clearly talking about “paedophiles” (sic). No. I’m nearly 25 and at this age still prefer getting called a “girl” to a “woman”. To each their own, and you apparently blow your top at every word that isn’t exactly to your liking. Get the hell over yourself and stop making out everyone is as much of a delicate, oversensitive little flower as you. We’re not.

          • fmf

            Hey, no need to get defensive, why aren’t you simply calling male adults “boys” then? I’m only trying to make you think, I’m not actually that bothered what you say as long as you understand why you’re saying it.

          • Liz

            Hello post police!

      • Gwangi

        There as a funny YOUTUBE clip a couple of years ago where a young couple on campus in the US, about to get it on, had their lawyers pop up from under the sheets and negotiate contracts specifying YE to thi, NO to that, so that eventually FULL CONSENT was agreed – by which time everyone had lost interest!
        The focus is ALWAYS on the male in this debate, how HE should do this, check that etc. Well, women are grown ups too – so they should stop allowing professional feminists to infantilise them (which the law does at the moment too, assuming no drunk woman can consent – when drunk men can).
        My advice to girls and boys – don’t get so blotto that you can’t remember the night before (I suspect many girls say yes, then then next day are ashamed to accuse men of the R word – which is a very fashionable badge of honour for feminists students actually…)

      • Michael Barnes

        Thank you V Hale; that is the most sensible post I have read in the last few years anywhere! This hysteria perpetuated by Saskia and her ilk is part of the problem. We know little of the evidence associated with these new classes because there really isn’t any! I fully appreciate that sexual aggression and prurient ‘laddism’ is prevalent in universities. Shock horror – it is also extremely prominent in ordinary life across the UK and in many ‘advanced’ economies. When were these nincompoops born? Have they not heard of National Lampoon’s Animal House, Porky’s or even American Pie?! These are arguably terrible, puerile films which somehow were not banned despite them showing young men and women in a negative light…. No, laddism did not start somewhere in the early 1990s as they almost seem to imply. It is a preposterous suggestion to identify it as a ‘new’ problem. We can all accept that programs like Men Behaving Badly did nothing for male decorum but that program and its ilk simply reflected changing social attitudes. Nu Labor came into power on a wave of renewal, stripping away stuffy social conservative attitudes whilst riding the crest of economic growth. Are Tony Blair and his acolytes responsible for the new laddism and ladette culture which followed..?!
        There is a deeper malaise in our society which still glorifies the all conquering, heroic, alpha male. The majority of boys from infanthood are destined to be compared to the great warriors, conquerors, kings, film stars, superheroes and professional athletes. They are generally not encouraged to be the next: Bill Gates, Gandhi, Stephen Hawking, Alan Turing, Clement Attlee, Jim Al-Khalili, Paul Allen, John Major, Robert Winston or lesser mortals e.g. Huw Edwards. Despite the huge strides made in IT, politics and science over the last 50 years, the quiet, studious, ‘geeky’ male is still not revered. Men like the latter are pilloried and laughed at. Nice, soft, ‘shy’ boys are made to feel uncomfortable and ridiculous even by their female friends and relatives. As adolescents they may appear awkward, diffident and sexually undesirable. Even as adults, these types of individuals may feel humiliated and victimised for looking and acting differently. Conversely, the “jocks”, “rugby lads”, “players”, “gang”, “crew” are seen as strong and confident i.e. ‘manly’ hence desirable by girls and young women. They tend to be more successful in their sexual pursuits. Believe it or not, the sexual drive in younger males is rather prominent; this has essentially kept the World populated. Do the so called experts ever factor this in when they question why ‘laddism’ is still prevalent…?!
        Modern society is quite explicit and children are far more sexualised compared to during my childhood. As a consequence of these altered social mores, youths are engaging in sexual activity, alcohol consumption(and illicit drug use) at a much younger age. These lessons in ‘consent’ in fact belong in the classrooms of sixth-form teenagers however uncomfortable that may make us feel!! It feels absurd to suppose that the vast majority of University ‘freshers’ need education in how to interact appropriately with the opposite sex.

      • Lydia Robinson

        You’ll also have to ask permission prior to each insertion to avoid getting into Julian Assange problems.

        “If this is the way feminists like to have sex then good for them”

        It appears they don’t actually like men enough to do that.

    • Mike

      If affirmative consent is required before hand you probably wont even get to the point of saying ‘left a bit, give it to me big boy’ or whatever !

      Men are renown for not reading womens minds and I’m not just talking about sex but if you want to be completely safe and avoid being accused of rape when the woman regretted her previous nights activities, then you either record it on your phone or get a written contract.

      • fmf

        No, no one’s able to read minds. Which is why you communicate. And that’s really not a turn off

        Unless you don’t actually care about your sexual partner and you just care about not being caught by the law.

        • V Hale

          Here’s a thought for you – not everyone is a frothing at the mouth offend-o-tron and most likely Mike has sex with normal women rather than swivel-eyed Marxists who don’t understand how regular human communications work as they’re constantly waiting for the next thing they can feel aggrieved by so they can jump on the outrage bus. It’s no wonder so many lefty men are attracted to right wing women, behind the scenes. You lot are more highly strung than a Stradivarius.

          • Liz

            Right because that’s what rape victims are – offended.

          • Fraziel

            piss poor reply that misses the point. typical.

          • Liz

            Whereas you are atypical. Nothing well-trodden about you.

          • Fraziel

            Another piss poor reply. I cant respond because i have no idea what it even means.

        • Mike

          Here we go again, “Which is why you communicate”. That is the worst most used cop out by so called therapists trying to help relationships and worse than “You tell me what you think”.

          Its the classic cop out as it offer no practical advice for those that actually need some help but thankfully I communicate with my wife all the time and on all subjects. Of course we joke about the battle of the sexes and josh each other from time to time but that’s part of our communication process.

    • Movies Online

      Best you not have sexual relationships until you’ve had some experience..

      • fmf

        …read that back to yourself and realise how nonsensical that is.

        • Movies Online

          Not as nonsensical from some of the comments here that show sexual experience is either non-existant or very limited. I’d plump for none existant and more likely to be someone’s fantasy.

      • Mike

        Like the irony, shame others didn’t get it !

    • Ne11y

      I am a woman and I can assure you that constantly having to check in with your partner to say left/right yes/no is not good sexual practice. Have you never seen a romantic or erotic film. You may have seen porn. They love to speak dirty in porn, but in passionate love making, there’s no time for left a bit, right a bit. Human beings have been negotiating sexual relationships successfully for hundreds of thousands of years. To suggest that we now need to attend classes on it is completely ridiculous. The fact that you dismiss people who disagree with your Stalinist opinion as part of the problem, merely shows your lack of experience, in all areas of life.

      • fmf

        I am a woman and I can assure you that if you had actually been to one of these lectures you’d realise that communication doesn’t have to stifle sex, but no, you go ahead, criticise something that you know almost nothing about, it’s fine.

        And no, we haven’t been negotiating sexual relationships sucsessfully for hundreds of years. We’ve been doing sexual reproduction just fine, but are you honestly saying we’ve never in the course of history at any point had a problem with rape?

        • Mike

          As that old adage goes – “If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it” !

          • Liz

            That old adage: it’s the definition of insanity to keep doing the same thing and expecting a different outcome.

          • Mike

            Practice makes perfect at least it did for me !

          • Liz

            How many rapes did you have to accidentally do until you got the hang of consent?

          • Mike

            I’ve always had consent and I didn’t need affirmative consent as my partners and I never had a problem reading each others body language unlike some here.

          • Liz

            How do you know?

          • Mike

            Men or women can not read their partners thoughts 100% but I’m pretty certain I’ve never left a women in tears, never had anything derogatory said afterwards, no snide comments and I’ve never been accused of rape. And I’ve returned for seconds.

            Thats good enough for me from a criminal stand point !

      • Liz

        You don’t speak for all women. Who knows what you’re prepared to put up with rather than communicate.

        • Gwangi

          And you Liz don’t speak for ANY women – expect the sad sack feminuts like you who waste their lives hating half the world population, fabricating abuse and victimhood, because of something that happened in your past. Let it go, love. Learn to live again and not exist in a pathetic ball of hate, like some femi-vermin blob of confusion.

  • V Hale

    I heard two of these wymyn from the NUS moaning about the sexual harassment figure which includes “unwanted sexual invitations” (which seems to me to be discrimination against ugly men in terms of what constitutes “unwanted”)
    One said she “couldn’t believe” her friends often apparently laughed at her for “calling out sexist behaviour”. Maybe because she’s a crashing bore and a killjoy? It’s unbelievable the disconnect that just because they don’t like something and feel “offended” by it, they feel they should have the right to excise it from public life. When I was in the student union bar etc I’d see lots of “normal” female students in the toilets etc wearing very skimpy outfits and talking about “wanting to pull”. These girls clearly do not want a campus where flirting and sexual come-ons are banned and I imagine they make up the majority of students. In general I have never “pulled” someone on a night out because someone dancing or someone I don’t know coming on to me really doesn’t appeal but just because I’m not interested in that. I don’t think “ban this sick filth” and that it should be stopped, which is what feminists really really don’t understand.

    • fmf

      If someone finds you unnattractive, surely you would know that, and stop trying to hit on someone? And why does it discriminate against ugly men, not ugly women? Why must men go up to women, are we Victorian and women mere objects?

      Activists of any kind are rarely known for their carefree and fun loving extoriors, that’s okay though, we don’t all have to be the same,.

      No one is excising anything, they are simply providing a brief workshop about communication. That doesn’t stop people “pulling”, or even hitting on people. It just helps make sure it’s mutual. No one is banning flirting. No one is calling it “sick filth”. It’s okay.

  • Guest

    The writer of this article lives in an imaginary world where consent is always an easy, simple thing and rapes are all committed by thugs. The reality is that a lot of campus rape is committed by otherwise normal college students who just DON’T UNDERSTAND CONSENT (http://www.davidlisak.com/wp-content/uploads/pdf/RepeatRapeinUndetectedRapists.pdf). That some universities are trying to help solve this problem is a GOOD thing. And that this writer feels motivated to blast these efforts because they create a small inconvenience says a great deal (none of it good) about his perspective.

    • V Hale

      This is what you people do, isn’t it?
      “and that this writer feels motivated to blast these efforts because they create a small inconvenience says a great deal (none of it good) about his perspective” – imply that the author is some sort of evil rapist because he happens to disagree with you.
      No. the issue I have is that it’s another attempt at social engineering and the far left pedaling and imposing its own agendas whether people like it or not. Also, in many of these surveys of “sexual harassment” and rape etc, they get their statistics from asking questions like, “have you had sex while drunk” and include things in statistics REGARDLESS of whether the woman feels aggrieved or not. And this is what this sort of social engineering attempts to do – foster a sense of victimhood in women. The vast majority of women who might have had their bottom pinched by a drunk man in a club find it funny or a mild inconvenience that is soon forgotten about yet because *some* very vocal women are upset by it they attempt to drum up mass hysteria over such events completely disproportionately to the “crime”. It seems to be leftists that traumatise women more than any leary guy – by encouraging them to feel grief and rage over something most people just don’t care about.

      • Matt Story

        LOL, I didn’t IMPLY that he is a rapist. I SAID that he has a problem with perspective. Maybe try reading what is actually there rather than making things up.

      • fmf

        Why would you care about something you believe you can’t change? “Leftists” simply give people the possibility that men don’t have to be creeps.
        Having sex whilst drunk is technically illegal, as you cannot legally give consent. That doesn’t mean people will always press charges, but there is something dodgy about the person who fights for their rights to not be called a rapist when plying people with acohol so that they will say “yes”, at least for the evening.

        • V Hale

          “Plying people with alcohol” – in your world are people unable to choose themselves whether they drink alcohol and people might get drunk of their own accord? Bore off.

  • Matt Story

    The writer of this article lives in a fantasy world where consent is always simple and rapists are all thugs. If he’d bothered to research the reality, though, he would know that a lot of campus rape is committed by otherwise normal students who just don’t understand consent (example of a study about this: http://www.davidlisak.com/wp-content/uploads/pdf/RepeatRapeinUndetectedRapists.pdf ). That some universities are trying to correct this is a very good thing, and that this writer blasts those efforts because they create a small inconvenience says a great deal — none of it good — about his perspective.

  • Andrew Juve Lanfranco

    “Students of Britain, rebel!” Against what?! Consent!?

    • Daniel, Oxford

      No. Against compulsory “consent lessons” given by self-importance morons, like you.

      • Matt Story

        Some people need consent lessons. Many of those people are college students.

  • Andrew Juve Lanfranco

    You are such a moron. Consent isn’t a contract. It isn’t something you only get permission for once. Consent needs to be constantly updated – often people won’t speak up when someone is “getting to second base” out of fear of the consequences should they say no! No means no, but not-no doesn’t mean yes.

    Now fuck off back to the 50s you ignorant, misogynistic, creepy, neck-bearded hack.

    • V Hale

      Thank you Oh Male Saviour for telling me that as a woman I’m too stupid, frightened and weak to say no when someone is kissing me and moves their hands elsewhere, to a place I don’t want at that moment in time. I bow down to you Oh Male Saviour for trying to rescue me.
      I have never once had a sexual experience which involved the person asking me for “updated consent” etc and if someone did I imagine they would be swiftly met with a “No, you may not.”

      And sorry, Brendan O’Neill is a very successful columnist and editor of one of the internet’s best publications. He has no beard. What is slightly creepy though is people making entirely new Disqus accounts to parrot feminist crap and call people misogynists. Grow up.

      • Ellie

        LOL @ YOU

        • Fraziel

          Brilliant, i salute your debating skills!

          • Liz

            Why? They’re lame ass. All they show is a lot of unimaginative men straining to imagine hypothetical scenarios they find it impossible to emphasise with. They scream out loud and clear where the problem is.

          • Fraziel

            I was being sarcastic at Ellie as her comment was so feeble.I would have thought that obvious.You could say this course was designed due to a a load of stalinist feminazis straining to find offence where there is none and creating a completely unneccessary ,pointless, irritating, nannying course that treats everyone on it like a f*cking idiot.

      • Andrew Juve Lanfranco

        In many cases since the vast majority of men are stronger and/or bigger than women, they may actually be frightened and feel weak.

        • V Hale

          If they’re too frightened to say no then why wouldn’t they be too frightened to not say yes?

          • Liz

            No, because a conversation before engaging in sex, is a less heated situation and would prevent a lot of the frightening scenarios being reached in the first place.

          • Fraziel

            Now youre just making it up as you go along

      • Ellie

        *people making entirely new Disqus accounts to express, as decent human beings, their distaste for this article and call out misogynists.

        • Fraziel

          except he isnt a misogynist except in the eyes of your average stalinist feminazi. As someone said earlier people have been having sex for thousands of years and women have been saying no for thousands of years. The idea people need classes on it is utterly ludicrous and extremist ,feminist, nannying rubbish that needs to be resisted.

          • fmf

            But this wasn’t about when people say no it’s about the “grey area” when they aren’t saying either way?

          • Fraziel

            You are not serious surely? have you ever had sex? I have never in my life, over countless occasions, been given a verbal affirmative and every time i thought it was yes it was yes.Every single time except when i thought it might be no and it was actually yes! The idea you need a verbal affirmative is feminist tripe and must be ignored.

          • fmf

            Yes, I have. And almost everytime we have verbally confirmed “you wanna have sex?”. And had you been to that lecture, I’m sure it talks about non-verbal confirmation/body language too.

            I’m not sure what effect you wanted that anecdote to have. Assuming it was yes and figuring it out later sounds like a dangerous game. I wouldn’t want to date/have sex with someone with that attitude, it’s too risky.

            Plus seriously, if it wasn’t actually a yes, do you really think people would tell you? The damage would have been done by that point anyway.

          • Fraziel

            Yes they would tell you if it wasnt a yes, who in theIr right mind lets someone have sex with them if they dont want to? No means no right? You are trying to make it that without a yes it means no and i think that ridiculous, unneccessary and frankly will kill a sexual experience.

            I am in my 40’s and i appreciate i have more life experience than people in their 20’s and a different way of looking at some things but your perspective and attitude on this issue is so wrong and warped its unreal. How inadequate are you lot that you wouldnt say no or not understand you have to stop if someone says no or from non verbal signs? Have you regressed to some form of sub human species that cant understand anything unless its shouted out in front of your face? Its just ridiculous and so typical of the sort of useless, dangerous crap that feminazis come up with.

            Whats actually wrong with someone making a move only to be told or find out its unwanted and then to stop? Its perfectly natural and normal and you are trying to make out it isnt. You get a no, you stop and move on and forget about it.Feminists seem to think its some kind of outrage that must be avoided at all costs.It isnt.

      • Andrew Juve Lanfranco
        • Daniel, Oxford

          You really are a sweetie, aren’t you! I bet all women find your language and general care for their well-being, overpoweringly attractive.

          • fmf

            Because men can only be interested in people not being raped so that women find them overpoweringly attractive. Yep, we feminists are definitely the anti-men bigots right here.

        • toneekay

          Brendan O’Cunt. Brilliant. Have a good day at school tomorrow.

          • Jackthesmilingblack

            Tomorrow’s Saturday.

      • fmf

        Did anyone say this was about solely saving women? This is about people.

        So if someone, during sex, said to you “are you okay?” you’d be like, “no, nope, not anymore, you dared to communicate, get away from me and stop now?” really??

        “Neck beard” is referring here to a state of mind, not an actual beard. And people make comment accounts to comment, in other news, water is wet.

    • David S

      Perhaps the compulsory training in manners should be more general than just how to behave on the pull. You certainly need a lesson in civility – I hope nobody moderates your comments, as it is a lesson to all of us how ugly trolling can be, even from a supposedly intelligent Oxford undergraduate.

  • Ellie

    You’re an idiot. This is nothing more than ignorant, uninformed bilge from a person who refuses to educate themselves and clearly has no direct experience of non-consensual sex.

    ‘Aren’t unwanted sexual advances a central part of student life?’ Sadly yes. And instead of doing anything to change that, you’re content to attack the direly needed consent workshops that will do some good? This sentence particularly reminds me of the bigoted idiots of the 1950s that would stand up and say things like ‘black and white segregation is a central part of life’ or something similar.

    ‘It’s hard not to feel sorry for these youths, who probably fantasise about campus life being a free-wheelin’ saucy time’ – yep, gotta love that ‘free-wheelin’ super saucy rape/sexual assault. Also who the fuck says ‘free-wheelin’? PLZ STOP.

    Funniest thing is, I’m not even angry. Your article was almost amusing in its idiocy. People like you make the rest of us look more intelligent, so thanks, at least, for that.

    Give up being a journalist and turn your (lack of) talents to something else.

  • Guest

    The trick is to be a science student mixing chemicals in a laboratory. The threat of
    a blue liquid accidently finding its way onto the unwanted male hand grenade will somehow deal with their attentions.

  • Someone

    Reading through some of these comments, you’d wonder if anyone bothered to read the article itself. I think that Brendan is absolutely right. Consent is given in the majority of instances by non-verbal cues and as is the nature of sex (at least between two people), only those two people will know and be able to ascertain whether consent has been given / withdrawn. Formally requesting a verbalising of this consent, does actually contrast to the act itself, which is entirely natural, flowing and understandable (at least in the moment itself). It’s a shame that we’ve got to the point of becoming overly-litigious as a society that to remove any doubt whatsoever a pretty sacred and special act between people has to be parroted to ensure we’re all playing the same game, when it should be obvious if you are / aren’t instantly. I mean it sort of stands to reason that if you aren’t interested, you’ll say something anyway.

    There’s also no small amount of *sexism* at play here as well. The starting point of this initiative seems to be ‘Guys, girls don’t know whether they want sex or not, so ask them just to check’. As someone who has had plenty of sexual relationships, if a girl doesn’t want to have sex, she will say something (Lord knows my wife does!). I’ve never met someone who has consented to sex non-verbally, then say to me afterwards ‘I didn’t want to have sex, I just did it because I thought that’s what you wanted.’ I also don’t believe the instances are so frequent that it warrants an entire movement springing up around it.

    As a species, we’ve survived pretty well till now without people busying themselves with what other people are doing in the bedroom, and doubtless we’ll continue to muddle through in the future too. If something is amiss, it’ll be brought to light soon enough, but I’m not sure whether the I HEART CONSENT movement is improving things or if it’s just some bored, generally sexless individuals from a few politically right-on student unions trying to make the whole shabang more complicated than it need be.

    • fmf

      Given that Brendan never went to these consent classes and is only skim-reading off some kind of press pack, I imagine it’s healthy not to take his whole word for the contents of this half hour talk i.e I highly doubt it’s as stiflying as he makes out.

      If someone felt uncomfortable enough to have sex with you rather than speak up, in what universe would they then feel comfortable enough after the event to tell you that? Come on.

      As a species, it doesn’t matter if we rape eachother, we’ll still reproduce and survive and muddle through, but don’t we want more than that?

      I think the I heart consent movement is doing exactly that, shining a light on something that’s amiss.
      We don’t need to resort to making assumptions about people’s sex lives here, that’s just a little childish.

      • Someone

        Sorry fmf – I disagree entirely. As I say, most sex acts I’m aware of take place as the result of tacit non-verbal consent. In the years I’ve been having sex, I can honestly say that I’ve never had a woman say to me verbally ‘Have sex with me now’ because the implication is there on both our parts and when a woman has not wanted to have sex, they have all said as much.

        Schemes like I heart consent actually treat people like they’re idiots, which hopefully as students at some of our most prestigious universities, these people are not. Granted there will be some people who are more awkward than others, and there will be some whose emotional intelligence is not as strong as others, but goodness, a compulsory session for all seems to start from the point of view that people are either a) too stupid to work it out or b) that participants aren’t capable of saying ‘Not tonight’.

        I prefer to view people as being fundamentally well-intentioned. I prefer to think that in their personal relationships, particularly ones with a sexual component there is no small amount of enlightened self-interest in ensuring that a good time is had by all in order to ensure similar future encounters. To formalise a process in something which is so humanly obvious, is not something I think which is needed.

        • Liz

          Good for you. 88,000 women a year aren’t so lucky.

          • Fraziel

            Again, total missing the point and piss poor response. How many of the supposed 88000 rapes were caused by not having verbal consent? I would imagine very very few. Perhaps you could tell me? If not, the 88000 number means nothing and is irrelevant to the conversation about verbal consent

          • Liz

            A great many involve women who were either incapacitated, married to their victims and acquiescent, or terrified or confused into being non-responsive. A great many rapists think they can presume consent.

          • Fraziel

            And are they currently students at elite universities where our supposedly best and brightest are attending? The idea that a man wouldnt know someone was terrified or confused is bizarre. Would asking her for consent if she is terrified and confused have made a blind bit of difference to someone like that? Of course not.Your points are irrelevant.A great many rapists? how many?

          • Someone

            Sorry Liz, I have been away from my computer for the last couple of days.

            88,000 women? Sorry would this be the figure of reported rapes in the UK per year or the number of people you believe are afflicted by the situations I’ve described in my posts?

            Let me be clear, no one here is condoning rape. No one here has said anything along those lines. What I have said pretty clearly and categorically is that sex between two people is extremely subjective and there is a danger that in a rush to rightly condemn people who commit actual, honest to God rape, that we end up judging others by a measurement they shouldn’t be.

            Consent in sexual relations tends to be non-verbal. While I hesitate to speak for a majority of people on this subject, I’ve not once had a girlfriend or my wife give verbal consent because we’ve been able to read one another’s intentions and feelings. Some people call it emotional intelligence. Some people call it intuitive. Some people call it natural. In my years to date, whenever a woman has said ‘not tonight’ / ‘no thanks’ / ‘not interested’ / ‘can we just cuddle?’ I’ve always respected that and always will. I think the VAST majority of the population do too which means that these enforced I heart consent lessons seem to be tarring everyone with the same brush. That everyone is a potential sexual predator. I resent the implication and that’s the reason I oppose these classes. It’s also the message I took away from Brendan’s article here.

            You’re entitled to your own opinion and that too is fine but don’t make it out that my position advocates rape because it does not.

    • Mike

      A good post but I would add that perhaps occasionally a partner would agree to sex although she may not really be in the mood but as you pointed out, I doubt they would turn around afterwards and say I didn’t really want sex.

      In either case whether they said something or not, it cannot possibly be rape if they never said no or stop as some feminists will claim.

    • Liz

      How does he know? Is he so sure he’s a good judge of facial expressions and body language when the science suggests men aren’t very good at it?

      • Fraziel

        Honestly this really is rubbish. The science suggests we are all pretty good at it. I ask again, how many rapes were specifically the result of not having verbal consent.

        • Mike

          And a deathly silence from the feminist side !

          • Liz

            Believe it or not I’m not hanging on your every word, 8 hours later is a pretty good rate of return on your bullshit misogyny.

            The evidence doesn’t show that actually. It shows men are worse than women at intuiting emotion from facial expressions and body language, something that every woman who’s kicked a tactless bloke under the table knows. It also shows they have less empathy for suffering, particularly female suffering, as the preponderance of torture porn films that linger over female victims shows us.

          • Mike

            Evidence of what, men not reading women very well or evidence that rape was the consequence of that. You don’t have any evidence your just conflating two different points.

      • Someone

        Non-verbal means everything from like a look / wink / seduction / foreplay I mean the list is practically endless and looks a lot like the precise circumstances the couple have experienced to that point. Which is why I say once again, this entire area of ‘I heart consent’ is perhaps not particularly helpful. It may be unfashionable but before having sex with someone, I’ve always liked to know whether there is a chemistry between me and that person thereby avoiding situations and misunderstandings. I should imagine that *most* people are similar in this regard as sex makes both participants feel vulnerable and requires no small amount of trust on the parts of both people. That trust, that bond, that frisson cannot be codified by a group of students because that is not how sex generally happens. Sex is something which is not a natural state of being i.e. we aren’t all walking around with a giant sign saying ‘I want to have sex’. It is however, the most natural urge and action of humans. i.e. we are naturally all sexual beings to an extent. Therefore whenever a sexual encounter occurs, it is most likely that if someone isn’t interested / unwilling, they will say something and in 99.9% of instances, the other partner will respect that decision.

  • Movies Online

    Good article. What I do find strange is that these people can absolutely define what rape is and isn’t but ask them to define in absolute terms what or how to achieve consensual sex that they would be satisfied with and suddenly their answers become a bit vague and wish washy. Come on Dr Love surely you can do better than that…

    • Mike

      My point exactly, they’re rather lacking in offering any practical advice that matches their rants !

      • Liz

        The only ranters round here are the rape apologists.

        • Mike

          I don’t see any rape apologist posting here but I do see a lot of feminists who are twisting the real meaning of rape especially after the appalling business in Rotherham and elsewhere in the country.

          You need to get your priorities sorted as that business was the most despicable case of gang rape by sickos and a massive sell out by the left wing PC fascists who knowingly ignored it. You can’t even compare those rapes with a coupling of two drunks who were both remorseful the next day.

    • Liz

      That’s why it’s a workshop not a lecture, dumbass.

  • cartimandua

    Its not that difficult to tell people not to have se* when one or both are off their face. They cannot consent if they are.

  • Brendan O’Neil fan club

    Brendan O’Neil you are a horrible man. If you believe this to be true you really are so out of touch with todays youth so please stop writing such drivvle .

    Having briefly read over your previous articles you truly are the moral voice of this generation. If you can find the time to stop sharing your words of wisdom with society it would be greatly appreciated.

    • toneekay

      Come on. You ain’t in touch with today’s youth. Incorporating the (misspelt) name of a hate figure into your moniker is juvenile, or evidence of an obsessive disorder if you are older than a juvenile. You need to get out of that bedroom more often.

  • Oscar Robinson

    Such a daft article doesn’t really deserve any kind of reasonable rebuttal so I’ll just put it bluntly: Brendan, you’ve missed the point of these workshops by quite a long way, and to be so stupid proves you’re a bit of an idiot.

  • Jackthesmilingblack

    In politically over-correct UK, alcoholic beverage consumption is the equivalent of coercion, and coercion is the essential concomitant of rape. Because if Madame wakes up with a bad case of buyer’s remorse in addition to a hangover, she has carte blanche to scream “RAPE”. So don’t stint on the bedside manner guys, or slammer time beckons.
    Jack, Japan Alps

  • Charles Hatvani

    Where does love come into all this?

    • fmf

      Loving couples want to know how to communicate?

      • Mike

        Loving couples know intuitively how to communicate and not just through the spoken word !

        • fmf

          And abuse is never a thing, and love is a magical force that makes every person perfect without any outside influence whatsoever.

        • Liz

          Yeah I have complete faith in your ability to communicate intuitively. Intuitive, that’s the word that comes to mind when I read your posts. You’ve managed to intuit that women report rape over regretful sex. In the morning. (All rape reports happen in the morning). With that kind of intuition from your average sexist dude, we have nothing to fear.

          • Mike

            A few women have even cried rape when the guy wasn’t even there but I’m quite comfortable to accept that rape is very wrong but just like ALL other crimes, there are degrees of rape just as there are for GBH, killing someone or even speeding.

            Its a crime against the person just like any other physical offence and Judges rightly have the discretion to pass sentence depending on the severity of a particular crime. Using your previous quote, you would have the accused evidence be inadmissible as they shouldn’t have a say in what actually happened. Clearly you’re not interested in justice for all but just your version of it.

  • AltoFronto

    OK, Brendan O’Neill. You just pooh-poohed the whole concept of compulsory consent classes based on your limited experience of university hook-up culture, and constructed a straw argument out of your own ignorance.

    I’ve actually attended a consent class (voluntarily!) at the age of 20, and it was great! I left the room wishing I had attended that workshop at the age of 15, or even 10, around the time when my school gave the talk about puberty. It would have helped me have better self-esteem and confidence in my teenage relationships, and I’d have not wasted so much time having awkward, unsatisfying sex. I wouldn’t consider any of my past sexual experiences to have been rape, but there was definitely some doubt in my mind as to whether I had really wanted to at certain times. My first sexual encounters were not ones that were particularly good, or emotionally fulfilling.

    Here’s what the class was like:
    About two dozen people in a circle of chairs, listening to a guest-speaker (who was a sex-worker) explain what consent is and why it’s necessary. If you think that’s intuitive and obvious, you need to take the class, because everyone has a different level of emotional maturity, and we’re never really taught how to communicate our personal boundaries with other people.

    We discuss some misconceptions over the definition of rape, and what consent does and does not mean.

    “No” means NO.
    Lack of a “Yes”, or silence, means NO.
    Ten “no”s before she finally gives in and reluctantly says “yes”, means NO.
    Passive resistance means NO.
    Being “not that into it”, means NO.
    Any indirect, round-about way of saying “No” means NO.
    “Yes” to X does not mean “Yes” to Y and Z.
    “Yes” and then “I’ve changed my mind”, means NO.
    Being very drunk means NO. (If you think a drunk person wants to, they will still want to when they’ve sobered up).
    Consent given under pressure or coercion is NOT consent.
    Consent given when one partner does not feel comfortable saying “No” is NOT consent.

    Generally, consent must be enthusiastic and obvious. “No” always overrides “Yes”. Asking for consent doesn’t have to break the mood, but if it does, that’s not important. The most important thing is that both partners feel safe and that their wishes are respected.

    How we think of sex is often centred around the male orgasm, and pressure to perform PIV sex. Women are put into the role of gatekeepers, and held to a double-standard of sexual purity. These roles and expectations were discussed, and we paired off to do a role-play activity.

    Rules for Activity 1:
    Partner A asks Partner B 3 questions, for consent to do something to their body:
    E.G. “May I stroke your hair?”, “May I hold your hand”, “May I touch your knee?”
    Partner B may only answer “Yes”.
    Partners switch roles and B becomes the asker.

    This is uncomfortable for Partner B, we discuss how pressure to comply affects our decisions to have sex.

    Rules for Activity 2:
    As before, only this time, Partner B may only answer “No”.

    Several people said they felt uncomfortable saying “No” so directly. We discuss what may inhibit people from saying “No” when they want to, and why we worry about rejecting people’s advances.

    Rules for Activity 3:
    As before, however Parter B must answer “No”, then offer a compromise.
    E.g: A: “May I rub your back?” B: “No, but you could hold my hand”
    Partners take turns asking the question.

    This is what healthy communication sounds like. B is not either passively submitting to or defending against A’s advances. Both partners are willingly engaging in the actions, and agreeing boundaries with each other. This is what consensual sex should be about.

    The scripted role-play is just to simplify relationship dynamics, of course.
    In real life, consent and communication sound like “I’d like to…X..” “… I’m not in the mood for ..X.., but what if I…Y… and then maybe we… Z…” “I’d love to ….Z… you all night long, how does this feel?” “Yeah, that’s good! God, I love the way you…” And so on. If you already talk with your partner during sex, this is a no-brainer.

    We round up talking about what insight we’ve gained, and we conclude with a quick recap.

    Years later, this fantastic advice has really stuck with me and I like to think it has improved my relationship with my partner, but also with my own sexual desires. I don’t use the word “empowering” often, but I felt truly empowered by consent class.

    I think everyone needs to take this class, because consent is necessary, and it’s a conversation we are not already having. It should be compulsory, along with comprehensive Sex Ed, on the national curriculum.
    And I think George Orwell would not consent to having you use his name to tag this stupid article.

    • V Hale

      You think people should have to ask, “May I touch your knee?” and, “May I stroke your hair?” Are you serious? How is this “fantastic advice”?

      “In real life, consent and communication sound like “I’d like to…X..” “… I’m not in the mood for ..X.., but what if I…Y… and then maybe we… Z…” “I’d love to ….Z… you all night long, how does this feel?” “Yeah, that’s good! God, I love the way you…” And so on. If you already talk with your partner during sex, this is a no-brainer.”

      No heat of the moment stuff, no passion? You’ve already laid out exactly what’s going to happen so there are no surprised? I’m happy to leave you lefties to your sterilised “sexual encounters” (seems a misnomer to even ascribe that status to it – it sounds more like a chore than anything even vaguely erotic). But yeah, you people get on with it but please don’t brainwash people into thinking that doing it anyway other than your way is “rape”. And great that you found the thing you voluntary went along with to be so wonderful but why the fuck should it be compulsory? There are a lot of lectures on topics like the benefits of free market economics which I found really thought-provoking and beneficial but I wouldn’t make them compulsory.

    • Mike

      In a word “UNREAL”

  • Albin

    They’re being given fair warning of offenses, for which they will be thrown out of school, and likely reported to police by the school, if complaints are proven or even probably true. That’s a good idea.

    • V Hale

      The fact people can be thrown out of university for a complaint that is “probably true” is the whole problem here. Innocent until proven guilty should be a foundation of our society. Sod off and go and live in your own communes where you can conduct purges and reenact the Salem witch trials where suspicion means the person is as good as guilty. Don’t impose your grotesque “values” on the rest of us.

  • Katherine

    Ugh. This article has some really BS assumptions and (wilful?) ignorance.
    “initiatives like these are likely to backfire” — Sorry, how exactly? My biggest problem with this article is that even if you consider this short 30-minute class extreme, what’s the consequence? Feeling a bit cringey for half an hour? Ok, well don’t you think it’s worth it if it prevents even just a few scarring nights? The workshops are there for everyone. Inexperience with drinking/sex by one student + thoughtlessness/ignorance by another student should NOT = the price of feeling used and horrified, or the realisation that you unknowingly made someone cry for weeks just because they didn’t say no.
    “When I was at college, pretty much every night involved unwanted sexual advances of some sort or other. And students simply said no.” — Have you been on the end of some stranger’s advances who, when you politely say you’re not interested, calls you a bitch or tells you “You’re asking for it if you’re dancing like a whore”? (I love dancing. When you’re looking attractive in your rugby gear, do I grope you then tell you you’re asking for it?)
    To people reducing this to rants about “feminazis” — I know guys who have been really drunk, lost control, got into sexual acts they did not want with more sober women, and felt awful about the next day. Men can feel violated as well as women, and suffer badly from assumptions like “all guys are gagging for it”. So stop reducing an important issue (consent) to your petty hatred against feminists.

    “it’s an unspoken, instinctual, experimental thing.” — Saskia’s made some really great points about how “active” consent doesn’t mean awkwardly-worded, passion-killing consent. If you really need to rely on her/his silence instead of being comfortable saying, “Does that feel good?” you are doing something wrong.

    • V Hale

      This is what really gets me –
      “If you really need to rely on her/his silence instead of being comfortable saying, “Does that feel good?” you are doing something wrong.”

      Now I don’t know how you feminists have sex but in the real world people usually don’t need to ask, “Does that feel good?” because it will be implicit in body language for example a woman digging her nails into the guy’s back and thrusting her hips up to meet his thrusts so it goes deeper inside, a guy massaging a woman’s head and twirling his fingers round her hair while groaning in pleasure while she’s going down on him etc etc and a million other normal scenarios. But wait – No!

      In feminist world, in scenario 1, the woman should stop and say, “Is it ok if I thrust up so your dick goes in me deeper and maybe I want to go a bit faster too right now,” otherwise she is raping him. And assaulting him as he might not want her grabbing on to his back. And in scenario 2 the woman should cease sucking the penis so as to say, “Does that feel good?” and if she moves down to stroking his balls or whatever while giving the blow job she should stop the blow job to ask, “Is it ok if I move my hands to here?” before doing so. And the man should say, “Is it ok if I stroke your hair now because this feels nice?”

      Sounds totally like you guys have the best sex ever! While we non feminists apparently just sit in silence raping each other.

  • Jackthesmilingblack

    It is possible that some of the Internet correspondents posting on this topic have failed to fully comprehend the wide range of sexual experience among the students attending these SexEd lectures.
    “I am but a simple country girl with no experience of men. Why, I hardly know the difference between a hand job and a blow job.”

  • hdb

    Reminds me of the old Fry and Laurie sketch, ‘Pre-coital agreement’:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NuWGVmlkLKo

    • Mike

      Thanks for that link, it made my evening after all the rubbish spouted by feminists here !

    • Liz

      It’s an old sketch. Times as well as understanding move on. I’d be surprised if they still have such a naive, dismissive and self-involved attitude with the benefit of the Internet and life experience.

      • Mike

        Judging by your comments its more like Back to the Future !

  • Liz

    Stupid article by a stupid man who doesn’t have to worry about the things these classes address.

  • Liz

    This comment thread is a good illustration of why these classes are necessary.

    • Mike

      Doesn’t seem to work in your case though !

      • Liz

        That makes about as much sense as every other bullshit rape apologia thing you’ve said in this thread.

        • Fraziel

          which is none.

    • Fraziel

      No its a good illustration of how feminists have been owned in a debate and some brilliant comments on why the classes are completely unneccessary, pointless and, frankly, bullsh*t. Honestly, you lost this one.Badly. I am actually embarrassed for you.

  • mattghg

    Exactly how do you make something like this compulsory? What will be the sanction for failing/refusing to attend?

    • Mike

      I’m sure the feminists will come up with something, maybe having to sit through a 1 hour rant by harperson or reeves !

    • last_brit_standing

      You get locked in a room with a TV screen playing porn of hairy-armpitted feminists having sex.

  • Liz

    “How romantic”

    Rape isn’t romantic.

  • Liz
  • Liz

    What is it with fucking Tory boys and this fucking magazine constantly trying to undermine efforts to reduce rape? Last week it was Matthew Parris saying that consent is a spectrum and some types of rape don’t count.

    • Mike

      There’s a world of difference between Rotherham and a regretted dalliance whilst drunk the previous night, or perhaps you don’t agree !

      Of course consent is a spectrum just as there are all manner of rapes from the most barbaric to the marginal.

      • Liz

        Shut up with this ridiculous MRA myth of regretted sex and crying rape. Women aren’t living in your fucked up Victorian fantasy where they have to report crimes to the police rather than admit they’ve had consensual sex. It exposes you as the wannabe rapist that you are.

        • Mike

          And most women posting here are sane, realists and not suffering with a case of permanent PMS.

          Is Liz your pseudonym and your name is really an Evelyn or Alex by any chance as your attitude certainly fit those film parts

    • Mike

      You sound just like that awful Labour Rachel Reeves who constantly rants on QT and never lets the other person reply. At least hear, you cant interrupt posts.

  • Liz

    “Orwell’s puritanical dystopia”

    Self-involved dick. What kind of puritanical dystopia do you think women have to live in to allow you men to act with impunity and not be too inconvenienced? Constantly censoring our bodies and sexuality, limiting our movements, living under curfews, watching what we consume, watching our backs 24/7. Get over yourselves.

    • Bram

      We’re very sorry about your bad relationship experiences. We hope you will get better.

      • Liz

        It’s nothing to do with my bad relationship experiences you condescending nob end. It’s everything to do with men policing female sexuality with their various Orwellian means from religion, to secular mob slut shaming to victim blaming. This magazine has indulged in it three times in the last few weeks. There doesn’t get much more dystopian that revenge porn or getting stoned to death or hanged off a tree for being raped. And you pathetic losers are being asked to attend a half hour workshop, oh my heart bleeds for you.

        • Fraziel

          comparing those things to the workshop is pathetic and ludicrous. Thinking the workshop is ludicrous, pointless and unneccessary has no link what so ever to the things you mentioned. None.Its a piss poor argument to make. I am curious, whats your view on women wearing the burka? A slut shaming garment that implies all men are rapists.

  • Jackthesmilingblack

    For men, getting “knocked back” is a frequent occurrence, while for women it can be an unforgivable insult.

  • last_brit_standing

    I’m glad I’ve already been through university. If I was told I had to attend mandatory sex classes I’d cancel my course.

  • Bram

    Most of the discussion below misses the point of the sex classes for students. The point is, of course (and some of the commentators below hint at that) is that men and only men must be made to understand that their sexuality is vile, evil, subhuman, rapey and bestial and therefore needs to be constantly policed.

    So young man, upon leaving this class, there is only one thing you must take away and it will emphatically not be said out loud during the session: you are henceforth one wrong move away from a rape accusation. When that happens you will quickly find that you have no friends. That knowledge should concentrate your mind wonderfully.

    • Liz

      There’s as answer to that: behave better.

      • Fraziel

        Do you go out of your way to try and miss the point of comments?

  • Liz

    When I started university , 20 years ago, there was a compulsory rape education class as part of the round of intro lectures. It covered how there had been a number of attacks on female students in the last year, how female students wouldn’t be given ground floor rooms in case intruders rated them, where they should and shouldn’t walk in case stalker’s attacked them, we were each given a rape alarm as our welcome gift from the student union.

    It’s great news that instead of that dystopian, puritanical, victim blaming, useless bullshit that encroached on our freedoms and liberties, they are switching tactics to look at who’s perpetuating these assaults. That rather than treating them as a natural disaster women have to avoid, they’re treating them as fully morally capable human beings who can avoid it ever happening. A small step in the right direction.

    Hopefully in a mere three years these moronic Spectator articles will be a thing of the past.

    • Fraziel

      interesting. Describing a counter point of view and debate as moronic. Says a lot about you i think.

      • Liz

        An ignorant moronic counter point of view written from a privileged position.

        • Fraziel

          Actually a very sensible and logical point of view imo, far more so than what you have been saying which is basically to rant and rave, insult and abuse and accuse anyone who doesnt follow your stalinist feminazi way of thinking of being a rape apologist.

    • Mike

      None of that sounds like so called date rape but genuine rape by generally unknown assailants & stalkers. I commend the Uni taking steps to minimise the threats mentioned but ‘date rape’ is very different.

  • Liz

    So, two comments picked from a brief scan.

    One guy thinks describes sexual assault as a guy putting his hand on a woman’s “tit” and getting the “brush off”.
    Another thinks that a woman drinking means “tonight is the night” and that she can always “fall back on” saying he “seduced” her because women are “manipulative”. (That’s women, not him).
    Another thinks rape accusations are for “regretful” s*x “the next morning”, or alternatively because women (presumably because they are manipulative) like to trash a man’s reputation (like that exists since the Internet).

    No doubt a more thorough trawl would turn up worse examples of men learning consent on the job.

    • Fraziel

      I didnt describe a guy putting his hand on a womens tits ( you got a problem with that word now? oh how you must be enraged at the use of the word tits because its soooooooooo offensive) as a description of sexual assault, i used it as a possible example of a misunderstanding. I specifically said it wasnt sexual assault in the contexti described. Stop lying and wilfully misinterpreting what people say.I have to work hard to undertsnad just how damaged and bitter you must be to have the mind set and way of thinking you have where you find outrage and offence everywhere where there is none. What happened to you to make you that way?

      • Mike

        Premature menopause !

    • last_brit_standing

      Yes, because you can obviously tell from online comments whether the person is male or female. How can feminists expect to be taken seriously when they completely overturn civilised notions of fair treatment, not to mention equality?

  • Chris

    This sounds like a great idea. We definitely need more education around consent and what it is, and to know that it’s not the robotic passion killer many people make it out to be. To me there’s nothing less sexy than that awkward fumbling between two people who don’t really know what the other person wants and are too scared of “breaking the mood” to say what they want, or to say if they’re not enjoying something or could be enjoying it more.

  • Fergus Pickering

    I think the thing is to have a form for the girl or boy to fill in.

  • Terry Field

    Do the working masses, who, as we all are aware, have less sensitivity, and can be a touch unsavoury, understand that coupling requires mutual consent???????

    • Mike

      It wont apply to Muslims as they follow Sharia law and the woman has to do whats she’s told or gets beaten up !

  • BobH2003

    The women should be told unequivocally that inviting a man into bed is a confirmation of a YES! There should be no ifs or buts about that. If you don’t want to be screwed, don’t let him in your bed.

    The women should also be told unequivocally that if you take your clothes off, that also means YES. After you have got the man totally aroused by your willing participation, it is then too late to say NO. You chose to light the blue touch paper and cannot turn back.

    Women stripping off, enjoying sexual play, and then refusal to continue constitutes sexual abuse of men. Women need to be made totally aware of this so they cannot scream rape later.

    If you women don’t want sex, stop acting like you do!

    I am not absolving men by these comments, but women also need to take responsibility for their own actions.

  • Roger Hudson

    With the ubiquitous smartphone we need a new etiquette where partners record an affirmative ‘selfie’ or something similar.
    Perhaps someone can develop an ‘app’ for that, with a before and after but leaving out the ‘during’.

    • Mike

      The feminists wont accept that as they want the during as well just in case the woman changes her mind after 10 minutes of bonking !

  • Kasperlos

    The triumphal march of the total nanny state continues. Step by step and carefully timed over the years, the reduction of people to clones and drones, man-boy, girl-woman, through pernicious plotting by self-annointed elites, academics and others is implemented. And they come to love their servitude. From the baby cradle to be weened by institutional, schools, and the corporate-government world the generations of the past 40 years have entered into a Dystopian world. Many accept it while many don’t recognize even if it was imprinted on their forehead. Welcome to 1984 plus 30.

  • Jackthesmilingblack

    Let’s get real guys, without rape the human race would have become extinct hundreds of thousands of years ago. Mother Nature really doesn’t care what kicked off procreation, just so long as something did.

    • Mike

      The animal kingdom survives on ‘rape’ for the most part.

  • Jackthesmilingblack

    Let’s cut to the chase, shall we: In the eyes of feminised Authority, there are too few convictions for rape in UK. So lowering the bar will serve to increase convictions. If this results in some miscarriages of justice, it’s just too bad that the individual suffers for the benefit of the majority. Also, it furthers the goal of giving every male in UK a criminal record. So hate it and leave it guys before you get saddled with a criminal record. Which will surely jeopardise your chances of a friendly reception when you do fly the coop. Go on. you know you’re going to.
    Jack, Japan Alps

  • trace9

    Where No means Yes
    & Yes means No
    It’s hard to know
    How far to go.

    In Olden Days
    A winsome gaze
    Was quite enough
    To show a case.

  • anosrep

    So, basically, Mr. O’Neill wants to make it easier for men who sexually assault women to tell themselves that they didn’t really to anything wrong.

  • Mr_Ominous

    A large portion of feminists regard heterosexual sex as rape. This is the beginning of criminalising and policing male heterosexuality.

  • Lydia Robinson

    I have a male acquaintance who is internet dating at the moment and he says most of the women he’s met so far are mental bunny boilers. Unsurprising, if they are attending the kind of feminist “workshops” being described in this article.

  • emilyc7

    Please research your topics prior to publishing.

  • StephanieJCW

    Active and willing consent doesn’t have to be obtained verbally (no matter O’Neill’s lies to the contrary) – it just means using some common sense and only engaging in sex with an obviously willing participant (i.e. if they’re lying at the foot of your bed passed out, probably don’t go there.)

  • aintnodarnfool

    Each encounter should be registered, an appointment made, and approval by the newly-created Sexual Oversight Department must be sought. A representative will be sent to witness and tape the approved encounter, and the record of it, along with release forms, will be sent to the NSA for safekeeping.

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