Features

My boy the radical Muslim

Ask yourself how you would feel if your child started spouting hate-filled bile against homosexuals, women, Jews — anyone, in fact, who wasn’t a Muslim man

4 October 2014

9:00 AM

4 October 2014

9:00 AM

Two years ago this week, my stepson came home wearing an Arabic black thawb. He walked into the sitting-room, smiled defiantly at me and at his father, and asked us how he looked. We were a little shocked, but being English of course we said he looked very nice.

Our boy had never shown any interest in religion before he found Islam at 16. We’re atheists, and we raised him to be tolerant of all faiths but wary of anyone selling easy answers. It all began after he left school. He was feeling slightly isolated, depressed and vulnerable after breaking up with his first girlfriend, so we were pleased when he began college and some new friends appeared. They were all young Muslim men. Around seven of them would pile into my stepson’s bedroom every evening and we would hear the shouts and yelps of teenage boys amusing themselves.

It all seemed so normal; it all was so normal. So much so that, when a prayer mat and textbooks on the Qur’an appeared on a shelf in his room, it came as something of a surprise. His father and I discussed his conversion between ourselves but, naively, we saw it as cosmetic change. This was, we reasoned, our boy’s version of going punk or vegan for a few months. We believed that this ‘conversion’ would be a harmless passing phase. We were wrong.

Over the next few months we saw the boy we knew become buried beneath a spiritual totalitarianism. The word Islam means submission. It allows you to love nothing else; to be a good Muslim, you must surrender yourself completely. Under the informal tutelage of his new friends, our boy eagerly took on the attitudes of his Muslim ‘brothers’ in place of his former personality. Why, he protested, didn’t I cook every night? Why didn’t I ‘look after’ him and his dad like a good (Muslim) woman would? I was lazy, I was ‘irresponsible’, he would say, a smug little smile on his face. I felt angry and sad.

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To keep the peace, I tried to take it as a joke, informing him that I had a career that involved more than just having babies. Gradually though, I found myself worn down by his attitude.

It wasn’t just women who found themselves at the sharp end of our boy’s new found sagacity. A news story about Afghanistan prompted him to join in our discussion of politics, something which in the past had been of no interest to him. He informed us that the problems in the region were the fault of ‘The Jews’; everything bad in the world could be laid at the door of ‘The Jews’. The Holocaust never happened, he insisted, but in the same breath he would say that ‘the Nazis should have finished them off’. ‘The Jews’ had caused the world financial crisis and, of course, ‘The Jews’ were the reason why he couldn’t find work. It was not because he had neither qualifications nor work experience, although that was probably their fault too.

Before his conversion, we had together watched Four Lions, the Chris Morris comedy about young British jihadis, and laughed at the idiotic prejudices of the white convert character, Barry. Now our normal teenage boy had been replaced by a caricature. We challenged him, thinking reasonableness would see him acquiesce. But we were not dealing with a rational mind. Our Muslim boy would heed no evidence against his argument and neither did he require any evidence to justify his prejudices. He just shook his head at our ‘blindness’, our blasphemous absence of faith. We’d see, he said, the familiar smug smile appearing: it was all in the Qur’an. We should convert before it was too late.

Some of you reading this might dismiss me as a bigot, prejudiced against a religion I do not understand. But please ask yourselves how you would feel if your child started spouting hate-filled bile against homosexuals, women, Jews, anyone in fact, who wasn’t a Muslim man? Every day we fought, struggled, wept and grieved for the boy. All we wanted was our son back.

Two years later, we have started to make some progress. Every day he returns to us a little more. His eyes have light in them again. It’s almost as if he is recovering from some disease. He explains his reversion succinctly: ‘I realised that I was good enough, that I didn’t need to follow someone else’s idea of what I should be.’ He can now take responsibility for his life rather than seeking to blame others. He is maturing. He no longer needs the support of a tribe, which is what attracts Muslims from all backgrounds and nations to the idea of jihad. I’ve come to think that it is youth, not persecution or poverty, that these Islamic State groupies have in common, an embryonic sense of identity. For them, blaming America for the world’s problems is the equivalent of shouting at their parents that they ‘never asked to be born’.

Every time I hear of another young man who has lied to his family and gone to join the carnage in the Middle East my heart breaks. You can, if you choose to, ignore the problem of the Muslim radicalisation of our youth in the mosques and on the streets. It is, after all, so easy to tolerate what does not immediately affect you, and it’s nice to feel that one is liberal about Islam. But the lesson I’ve learnt is that we’re going to have to fight for our progressive democracy, because although you may tolerate Islam, Islam might not tolerate you. When it lives in your house, eats your food, sleeps under your roof, enjoys all the comforts you provide, all the while despising you, then you will be forced to make a choice.

Claire Stevens is a pseudonym.

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Show comments
  • wayne

    Claire you sound part of the problem, and fancy not knowing the dangers of Islam it’s brainwashing full stop. The reason your son hasn’t a job can be laid at immigrations door but no doubt you’ll pander to the PC notion. the fact your son has no qualifications is dreadful what kind of parent are you? Have you ever thought of putting your foot down? Every parent has these dangerous problems nowadays it’s common sense to keep your child away from Muslims especially if she is a young girl but of course if you follow like you have the wonderful multicultural bull you find in the media like the Guardian or the BBC you will be in trouble. And as for Muslims joining ISIS I firmly believe that there are three possibilities.
    !. the parents had no idea his convictions were so strong. Possible but highly unlikely
    2. the parents were hardline but it was still a surprise
    3. The parents are proud of their little jihadi

    But Claire I am pleased your son is getting better and you have been lucky so far as it’s not likely to be over. And well done for writing such a brave article. You acording to todays PC society have done nothing wrong but we all know that you should not have been so lenient and you can blame this culture of not being firm with your children on the left who are destroying our society

    • Chloe Ainsworth

      “it’s common sense to keep your child away from Muslims”

      I think YOU sound like part of the problem. Alienation and segregation of groups are part of the cause NOT the solution. Do you not realise you sound like the western counterpart to those you apparently abhor?

      • Pootles

        Stop shouting. This is a civilised forum. And if you are one of the women in your avatar then perhaps you should be careful and keep away from the sort of Islamists that the writer of the column is talking about.

        • Chloe Ainsworth

          I am not shouting, I am emphasising words using capitalisation because I don’t have the ability to italicise on this forum.

          It’s also pretty laughable for to call this a civilised forum, civilised is the complete opposite of what Wayne had to say.

          Staying away from dangerous people is one thing, but advising staying away from Muslims in general is ignorant.

          • Pootles

            You probably didn’t have to emphasise any words, your message was quite clear. I suspect that ‘Wayne’ would probably argue that it is pretty difficult to establish which followers of Mohammed are, and which are not, dangerous people. The key problem is that if one regards Mohammed as the ‘perfect man’ who should be emulated, then one comes up against Mohammed the killer, the torturer, the war lord and the polygamist (including 9 year old girls). You can see the problem there, can’t you?

          • John Croston

            Staying away from Muslims is good advice. In addition to the grooming/rape epidemic, it’s never possible to predict just when they will go all religious on you and therefore become extremely dangerous. It’s a bit like Timothy Treadwell and the Grizzly Bears.

          • Chloe Ainsworth

            Like Jehovah’s witnesses?

          • Clamjouster

            I’m going to go out on a limb here and guess that you don’t live near a large community of Muslims. I and my family do.

            Our teenage daughter is about to turn 15 and as part of her upbringing we’ve taught her how to distinguish between the various immigrant communities she sees around her. The Hindu and Sikh communities are both lovely people to be around but that she should avoid the Muslims at all costs.

            Frankly with what is happening in Rochdale with 1400 white girls being groomed by Muslims I feel the decision we took to protect her was the right one and no amount of liberal hand wringing about racism would change our minds that we took the correct course of action in her best interests.

          • Chloe Ainsworth

            Well you would be wrong in your assertion. I actually live in an area highly populated with Muslims and there is a Mosque just at the end of my estate.

            I don’t stay away from Muslims, I use my common sense, there’s good and bad in all types of people regardless or race or religion.

            What happened in Rochdale is abhorrent, but I don’t expect it to lay on the shoulders of every Muslim just like the prevalent abuse in the Catholic church shouldn’t lie on the shoulders of every Catholic.

      • Mike

        Especially young girls !

      • Suzy61

        I will raise the same question I have asked previously. If I were the mother of an eleven year old girl living on a sink estate in Rotherham….would I be racist to tell my daughter to avoid Pakistani boys/men at all costs…or would I be a racist?

        • Chloe Ainsworth

          That’s a difficult situation and as someone who isn’t the mother of an eleven year old girl I find it hard to put myself in that position. I like to think that I would teach my child to be wary of ANY strangers male or female, Muslim or Christian.

        • Mike

          Girl or boy, I’d have serious concerns !

  • Herb Suhl

    Nature abhors a vacuum, as does our soul. Devout Catholics kids are less become Islamic. You cannot fight something with nothing. I am sorry and do not want to come across as mean. I just want other people to not to not suffer this fate.

    • Kennybhoy

      “For spiritual nature, like bodily nature, will be served; deny it food and it will gobble poison.”

      Excerpted from “Equality” by C.S. Lewis, originally published in this magazine on February 11,1944.

      • Damaris Tighe

        The souls of some people naturally reach for something beyond them. It’s very sad that the only spiritual path reaching out to them in 21st century Britain is Islam. This is a big problem.

        • Pootles

          Indeed. The Church of England must bear some responsibility here – it appears to have given itself over to ‘relevant’ ‘struggles’ that are really just secular concerns transported to sacred spaces. Not so long ago, the majority of people in England had direct experience of the C of E. The church has thrown what it had away – to everyone’s loss.

      • Herb Suhl

        Kenny– This quotation show why he was CS Lewis and I sell plumbing supplies. Am honored that you responded to my comment.

        • Damaris Tighe

          I thought you put it very well Herb.

    • sarah_13

      I’m not sure that is true, at least being christian doesn’t provide immunity. The skunk fuelled, arrogant hate filled young men who killed Lee Rigby, at least one of them, had a christian upbringing.

      • lookout

        He did not, he was brought up in a Christian “cult”, all the Christian cults fail completely when examined in light of biblical truth. Religion is man’s way to God, the bible is God’s way to man, everything else is a waste of space. I am an ex Catholic and have studied many religions, there is only one truth and it checks out, see Chuck Missler on YouTube for a starter.

        • Kaine

          This is one of those irregular conjugations isn’t it?

          My beliefs are the truth
          Your beliefs are a religion
          His beliefs are a cult

          • lookout

            Check it out, you can always tell a cult they want total control, it doesn’t matter if it’s a christian, Islamic, communist, environmentalists, capitalist or humanist, they end up becoming nutters.

      • Herb Suhl

        Islam is exactly like a US Prison gang that gives identity and cause to lost souls. Some people join these gang because of their parents. Others to survive in Prison. Some because they hate society and the gang gives them an avenue to strike back. Some like the power. Some it is just fun being bad and killing people. Ever gangster is different.

  • BigCheddar

    Thank you for sharing your store, very moving. I wish you good luck and hope your son returns to you completely.

    “But the lesson I’ve learnt is that we’re going to have to fight for our progressive democracy, because although you may tolerate Islam, Islam might not tolerate you.”

  • Advocatus_Diaboli_69

    The story begins with; …being English of course we said he looked very nice.

    And ends with; I’ve learnt is that we’re going to have to fight for our progressive democracy because although you may tolerate Islam, Islam might not tolerate you.

    Our politicians, police, council staff, teachers etc are still at stage 1. They’re still being ever so nice even though they have misgivings.

    • Tom M

      Quite so Advocatus. I watched a lady on QT the other night asking why we have to resort to violence in respect of IS. She proposed sending diplomats to talk to them and was very insistant that we do so.
      I suggest that the lady hasn’t reached your stage1just yet.

      • John Croston

        She probably has a strange grudge against diplomats and wants to see them beheaded.

      • Advocatus_Diaboli_69

        Can you remember who the woman was?

        • Tom M

          Sorry can’t help she wasn’t on the panel she was in the audience.

          • Advocatus_Diaboli_69

            Understood, thanks.

      • Mary

        Not to mention the diplomats would come back headless.

    • John Dalton

      Whilst I sympathise with Claire Stevens’s plight, what more proof do we need of our total inability to deal with this aggressive ideology which should have no place in our country. You can have British values or you can have this ideology. You cannot have both.

      While we are being nice and terribly English about things, shuffling along, keeping our heads bowed, contorting ourselves lest we cause offence, this ideology is expanding aggressively, facilitated by stark demographic realities, permeating our institutions and twisting them to its advantage. It seems that those among our young it does not wish to abuse it wishes to convert.

      Sooner or later we will be forced to make a stand. Let’s hope we don’t leave it until we cannot possibly win.

      • Ambientereal

        The step now (and it is certainly a little late) is to teach our children to hate islam as we teach them other evils like drugs and crime. It is a crude reality to which we are awakening now, but what makes me angry at most is that until now my eyes where covered by a blanket of charity, equality, nicety towards any culture, which was laid by our politicians. Now after so strong a shake I am afraid of becoming xenophobe but I am even more scared of being cornered by islam.

        • willshome

          Oh brother! Westboro Baptist Church pickets soldiers’ funerals in the USA carrying placards screaming “God Hates Fags” – should we teach our children to hate Christianity. “Islam” is very different from Islamist. Learn the difference of you risk making a bad situation far far worse.

          • Ambientereal

            You do the same as our politicians, mix everything and cover it with the blanket of tolerance. Nothing equals the evil written in the Qur´an. And there is no alternative to muslims (and they are not precisely searching for one) but to painstakingly follow it.

          • Tim Morrison

            So all those atrocities committed by Christians against each other are less bad perhaps?

          • Ambientereal

            When did Jesus spoke of killing or death, of chopping heads and fingers or of obliging others to believe something they don´t? Jesus spoke always of peace, tolerance and forgiveness. He even spoke against vengeance by telling that one must “offer the other cheek” to the offender.

          • Tim Morrison

            Very good point. Most founders of religions become ignored by their followers. It took very little time for his devotees to do everything they could to make life miserable for those around them. The second they got a whiff of power they started to behave in exactly the ways you condemn.

            Of course Jesus was always talking about the short term- his ethics were for the brief period before the arrival of the Kingdom of God when non-believers would be sent to hell in a spirit of forgiveness and mercy.

          • Ambientereal

            No, Jesus spoke of sinners and not of nonbelievers. He never taught of condemnation through non-faith but through sin.

          • Tim Morrison

            He said the only way to righteousness was through him – so all non believers are sinners and so damned –
            ‘I am the way, the truth and the life, there is no way to the Father but by through me.’

          • Pootles

            Yes, and he said something pretty strong about sinning against the Holy Spirit (without being too clear on the point, actually). However, as you’ll notice in the Gospels, he did not recommend punishment in this life, and certainly not punishment inflicted by his followers. That matters to us now, because punishment and reward (‘store up treasures in heaven’) are for another world. Most people in the UK don’t believe that it exists, while Christians believe that it does and that accounts will be dealt with there. They do not believe that they have to judge and carry out judgement in Christ’s name. That is a real difference with Islamists. And that goes to the core of the issue. Mohamed is seen to be ‘the perfect man’ who should. be emulated. The Life of Christ is vital too, for Christians, and they should struggle to follow in his footsteps. Mohammed was a polygamist (including a 9 year old), a killer, a torturer, a war lord. Jesus was none of these things. I know who I prefer.

          • Tim Morrison

            Dead heroes are problematic – they never tend to live good lives in the light of later generations and tend to be careless in their wordings of dogma – ‘the sin against the Holy Spirit’ is a lovely example. It has been taken to refer to everything from masturbation to apostacy – the kind of loophole that has been used to justify every bad behaviour.

            Of course, we know next to nothing about Jesus’s life apart from the three years of his notoriety – he may have been all sorts of things – we just don’t know. He certainly did not get on with his family – (‘what is that woman to me’ – not a nice way to talk about your mother)

            I accept that most British Christians don’t want to sit in judgement on other people or inflict punishment in the name of Christ but its not that long since they most certainly did – both in law and in enforced community values. That they are nicer now is because we have a strong, civic and secular society that will not tolerate their bad behaviour: as in their persisitent refusal to recognise same sex marriages and support of institutionalised sexism.

          • Pootles

            We may know next to nothing about Jesus’ life, but what we do know puts him at the other end of the spectrum of behaviour from Mohammed. And that is important. Where Christians have been/are utter b*st*rds, then they have been in direct contravention of the teachings of Christ. So they will, in their own scheme of things, have to account for themselves in the next life. When Islamists cut off heads, torture people, stone people, throw them off cliffs etc, they can, quite legitimately, point to the Koran and the Hadiths. They are being, in their eyes, true to Mohammed, and, ergo, Allah.
            And, yes, I agree with you on secular society putting limits on religious behaviour. However, I think that Christians who don’t like same-sex marriage hardly compare to Islamists who think that polygamy is fine (and practise it), that child marriage is fine, that killing people who ’cause mischief’ (i.e. don’t accept Islam) is fine, that beheading , stoning, torture and mutilation are acceptable. Do you?

          • Ave Ashley Victoria E

            100% Accurate.

          • Steven Carr

            You won’t find such sayings as ‘a synagogue of Satan ‘ in the Bible, allegedly dictated by Jesus.

            Sorry, my mistake. It’s in the New Testament.

            Anyway, here is what Jesus allegedly dictated , according to the Bible ‘ I have given her time to repent of her immorality, but she is unwilling. So I will cast her on a bed of suffering, and I will make those who commit adultery with her suffer intensely, unless they repent of her ways. I will strike her children dead. Then all the churches will know that I am he who searches hearts and minds, and I will repay each of you according to your deeds.’

            Death threats.

            Yes, threats of death, allegedly dictated by Jesus Himself.

          • Ambientereal

            Jesus never dictated anything. Please revise where are this statement from. In the old testament you may find many death threats from God.

          • Steven Carr

            Are you claiming the author of Revelation just plain lied when he said Jesus dictated letters?

            The Bible was written by liars?

          • Ambientereal

            Yes, nothing written after Jesus´s death can be compared to what he said when living. Revelation was written 3 centuries after Jesus death.

          • Tim Morrison

            Please read the history of your own faith and your own religious texts. Almost any Introduction to the New Testament would help. Raymond Brown’s would be good as would Reginald Fuller. Jesus wrote nothing down and no one would argue that Revelations is much into the 2nd Century AD, most would say much earlier.

          • Damaris Tighe

            Revelation is a work of prophecy by John. The most that any mainstream Christian would say about the words quoted is that they are of the ‘risen Christ’ not the historical Jesus. Many would argue that they’re words put into the mouth of the risen Christ by John. For the historical Jesus you need to go to the gospels.

          • Damaris Tighe

            Revelation is a work of prophecy by John. The words quoted are of the ‘risen Christ’ not the historical Jesus. You can either believe that John did indeed have a revelation from Christ after his death or that he was deluded. Lying doesn’t come into it. For the words of the historical Jesus you need to go to the gospels.

          • Steven Carr

            So the Jesus after he died was not a real Jesus?

            And Christians lied about claiming to see ‘the risen Christ’.

            Why should I call the author of Revelation ‘deluded’ when he was clearly lying?

          • Damaris Tighe

            Any delusion (if you believe John is deluded) is not the same thing as a lie. A delusion is sincerely believed. A lie is not. A schizophrenic, for example, may sincerely believe he is hearing the voice of God. This is not a lie, it is a delusion.

          • Steven Carr

            You know, religious people can lie.

            Especially when it suits them to claim that their god says he hates the same people they hate.

          • Tim Morrison

            So was John the Divine deluded, a liar or did he write down the literal words of Jesus?

          • Damaris Tighe

            They weren’t the words of Jesus the historical person & John didn’t claim them to be. I don’t believe John was a liar. He was a prophet in the biblical tradition. Whether they were the words of the risen Christ as John claimed or he was deluded I have no idea.

          • Dr. Heath

            Why were the gospels written in Greek and not Aramaic? Why do they disagree on so many significant matters of historical detail concerning Jesus’s birth, his ministry, his death and his resurrection? Why do the gospels of Matthew and Luke in fact merely re-state the contents of the Gospel of Mark? Why does Matthew believe that it is necessary for believers in the new faith to live according to the traditions of orthodox Judaism in respect to food and circumcision whereas Mark does not? Why do the gospels contain information that seems to have been included by writers who must have known nothing of the geography or customs of Palestine? Why does the gospel of John portray Jesus making claims about his divinity which are absent in the synoptic gospels? Why do Jesus’s mother and siblings have such small roles to play in the story before disappearing from the narrative, never to be mentioned again? Why do we have no idea who in fact wrote any of the four Gospels? Why is the narrative describing the moment when Jesus’s followers give up their occupations and follow him so unconvincing? Why do Jesus’s followers appear constantly surprised at his ability to perform miraculous deeds, as though in every instance they’ve managed to forget all about all previous miracles? Why, nearly a century after Jesus lived, does Justin Martyr refer not to the four gospels but to the ‘memoirs of the apostles’?

            Why are there works, such as those found at Nag Hammadi, mentioning the same people as are mentioned in the Gospels but which seem to be gnostic – and largely inscrutably mystic – tracts with no connection to post-Constantine orthodox Christian beliefs? How have so many books that could have been written by early believers managed to be vigorously excluded in favour of only four books that, many argue, were written in Rome generations after Jesus’s life rather than by any eye-witnesses to his life and times?

            Why should people in the West take more seriously the particular fabulist claims of one faith community merely because that faith was, in essence, the totalitarian creed of the West for centuries?

          • Pufferfish

            And why were the gospels now forming part of the New Testament selected over others available at the time?

          • Dr. Heath

            Several dozen ‘gospels’ have survived to our times. They appear to be the writings of members of faith communities whose beliefs have little in common with the tenets of the Christian church that was established in the early fourth century in Rome. The ‘canonical’ gospels, many argue, were composed to order; the idea of a non-corporeal saviour or messiah who appears in the Dead Sea Scrolls or the Nag Hammadi documents and the equally disembodied, non-historical ‘Lord’ that Paul claims appeared to him only in visions required a make-over so as to present to fourth-century Romans [for whom there was to be no choice about accepting the new religion] what the authorities hoped would prove to be a credible narrative about a real person.

            Confessional scholars and believers, of course, utterly reject any such idea and insist that the New Testament gospels are eye-witness reports [or second-hand retellings of eye-witnesses’ accounts] of the events and teachings of a real rather than a mythical being.

            The rejected gospels – Bart D. Ehrman’s collected I think all of them into a single volume that makes for very hard reading – are, to anyone familiar with the New Testament extremely bizarre and cryptic. But they may in fact be genuine records of very bizarre and to us cryptic Gnostic beliefs that the founders of the Roman church wanted to expunge from the record.

          • scroggs

            When I was 13, over half a century ago, this was my state of mind in relation to the story of the voice from heaven at Christ’s baptism. Unfortunately, it seems to be the state of mind of many adults today. I regret that I was not introduced at a much earlier age to an intelligent understanding of how to interpret the various writings in the Bible. It is a task that schools could usefully do today and might save us from much bigotry.

          • Pootles

            And ‘the woman taken in adultery’ ? The instructions were quite clear: ‘let he who is without sin cast the first stone’, i.e. do not do this. And your quotation? It does not instruct anyone to carry out any punishment, that is left to God.

          • Tim Morrison

            To me, and I realise that this to most people of faith is ridiculous, Christians and Muslims are on the the same spectrum – systems of logic based on verifiable precepts.
            Much of what is condemned in extremist Islam was present in extremist Christianity until the very recent times and its absence is not so much to do with evolving religious truth but improved standards of education, health and access to decent services – eg. the advantages brought through science and modernity.
            Now of course, I am not denying that Jesus said a lot of good things – he also did some things that now look pretty silly, – putting demons into herds of pigs, using saliva as an agent for divine healing, losing his temper at figtrees but I don’t expect a figure from the Iron Age to make sense in the 21st Century. I am sure in some ways his values would be more congenial to me than many Islamic ones – I am with him on water into wine – but I don’t want to chose between ancient sects. This is pretty cold comfort I know but I think it is where we are.

          • Auntiemilibland

            I think you are missing the point completely. We accepted and tolerated Asian immigration in the early ’60’s but when the Kenyan Asians then the Ugandan Asians were forced upon us because of their intolerance towards the Kenyan and Ugandan people in the late ’60’s, early ’70’s we became wary of the big changes that would eventually develop in our country. If you emigrate to any other country in the world you must adhere to their laws and their way of life, not so Islamics, they believe only their religion is supreme and as such no other religion should be practiced, unless you are Islamic then you should be treated with contempt. We are in the 21st century, unfortunately these barbarians still live in the long ago past. We are subject to equality laws, to racial prejudice laws, but very few Islamics are charged or convicted of these offences because the hierarchy make excuses for them just as you are doing here. It is not a religion it is a cult and should be outlawed.

          • Tim Morrison

            What is the difference between a religion and a cult?
            How can you outlaw either in a democracy?
            What are the oppressive laws you are complaining of – those ones telling you to be polite to people and not call them racist names?

          • Auntiemilibland

            I didn’t mention oppressive laws, I said they aren’t subjected to our laws, I’m talking about female genital mutilation, honour killings, the harassment of gays and the Jews, the fact they can demand a female doctor for their wives, the objection by family members when a female who is receiving hospital dialysis on a day unit demands no male be put in a bed near her, forced marriages, the rape of the white girls in Rotherham, not one prosecution and when there is they wont be charged with racism and the list goes on and on, in short they want us all to live under Sharia law. Their “religion” or what ever they want to call it is of no consequence to anyone but them but successive governments have given them a fawning, hand wringing acceptance of a barbaric belief even when it sits at odds with the democratic system of our country. It certainly hasn’t got anything to do with peace!!

          • Tim Morrison

            Here are some points:
            Anyone can ‘demand’ a doctor of the same sex.
            Mixed sex wards are now generally seen as a disgrace.
            Forced marriage is a crime as is female genital mutilation.
            People have been prosecuted in Rotherham – tho not enough.
            Muslims have been prosecuted for putting out anti-gay leaflets.

            Also consider:
            Christian priests have been guilty up to the level of the Papacy itself of colluding and covering up child sexual abuse.
            Christians have been insisting on their rights to discriminate against gay men.
            If you want evidence of anti-semitism, look at responses to almost any blog by Nick Cohen.

            Now I am not saying one religion or another – both are dangerous …

          • Damaris Tighe

            Auntiemilibland is referring to day wards for dialysis, not mixed sex wards. They just lie there & receive treatment, then go home. Therefore her comment is valid.

          • Tim Morrison

            and the other points?

          • Auntiemilibland

            I’m afraid you are sadly misinformed, all dialysis day units in Sheffield are mixed sex, you can’t choose your bed unless you are a Muslim. There have been absolutely no prosecutions of Pakistani men who raped the white vulnerable children in Rotherham, hence the on-going public outcry, had it been the other way round and a gang of white Christians had raped a load of Muslim girls they’d be calling for them to be beheaded. Like I said in my first post to you are missing the point. In the 21st century these home grown barbarians are showing their true colours and it’s apologists like you who have given them the right to do that. They should have been told in the beginning that they are no more important than anyone else but every government have done the opposite. The murder of Lee Rigby and the abuse our servicemen and women whilst recovering from injuries in hospital in a densely populated Muslim city is just the tip of the iceberg, because the murderers of Lee Rigby were not charged with a hate crime for which they would have got an added sentence

          • Dr. Heath

            And Nick grew up in a family which was not religious and did not identify itself with Judaism. Numerous responses to Nick Cohen’s blogs and articles are infused with loathesome and entirely unself-conscious anti-Semitism. Because Nick has signed up to the principles enunciated in The Euston Manifesto, he earns equally large amounts of whacko opprobrium from the Stalinist bien-pensants that The Guardian likes to employ to write in favour of ‘progressivism’ and other absolutist doctrines in which all forms of reasoned, centre-ground argument are hysterically reviled as signs of incipient nazi-ism.

          • Bob_at_large

            I don;t mean to sound arrogant but adopting a clear set of ethical principles goes a long way toward distinguishing supremacy from tolerance. Read www[dot]hubub[dot]com/157963/212103

          • Tim Morrison

            I gave the document a quick scan and it looks very interesting – perhaps rather in the same spirit as Karen Armstrong’s Charter for Compassion.

          • Pootles

            Of course, you are adopting a perfectly acceptable stance. However, it is still the case that if one takes the life and teachings of Mohammed as a guide then one has an ideology that is both potentially and in actuality, stunningly dangerous. However, if one takes the life and teachings of Christ, one is not in that position, unless one wilfully goes against that example.

          • Tim Morrison

            Thank you, Pootles, I am sure if we were outside this deliciously polemical environment we may agree on much.

            I do think that many, but by no means all, of Jesus teaching is useful to the ethical life. Before I was an atheist I took the trouble to learn Biblical Greek so unlike most of his followers’ I have read him in the original language.

            I am not sure that I have met anyone who follows his teachings. Most sermons i have heard seem to consist of explaining away the text – worry not about tomorrow, look at the daisies in the field etc.

            I don’t know many Christians (though one or two to be fair, yes) who give all they have to the poor. I doubt many readers of the Spectator would agree with Jesus on the subject of camels and needles or even on rendering unto Ceaser. It is rather interesting to see how many of the comments on this blog here would survive the cheek turning test, enemy loving and concepts of radical forgiveness. I doubt very much he would advocate bombing anybody irrespective of the rightness of the cause.

            I am pretty certain that very few people who make angry comments about Islam have read much about the life of the Prophet – I know I have not – but then texts about specks of sand in one’s own eye come to mind.

          • David P

            “Before I was an atheist I took the trouble to learn Biblical Greek so unlike most of his followers’ I have read him in the original language.”
            My thanks to Mr. Morrison for informing me that Jesus communicated through written Greek. Until his enlightening post, I had dwelled in darkness and thought it was spoken Aramaic.

          • Tim Morrison

            Yes, Jesus spoke Aramaic and there are a few phrases which have been attributed be traced back to him that language – ‘eloi, eloi. lama sabachtani’ being one of them – The Gospels and all other New Testament books are written in Greek. Reconstructing the original Aramaic is not something that has been attempted by many scholars.

            My point still stands; Christianity is perhaps one of the few religions that has by far the majority of its followers illiterate in the languages of its key texts.

          • Pootles

            Thanks, Tim. Yes, motes and beams – that often comes to my mind. However, it is also something that tends to lead to a sort of paralysis. But, I don’t know the answer.

          • Tim Morrison

            I think that’s right Pootles, and it does tend to mean that those who are shamefaced enough to shout the loudest get away with it without being challenged.
            One of the great disappointments for me of the Independence debate was the lack of promotion of what used to be seen as ‘British’ values – something positive about the British identity that all inhabitants of the islands could aspire to – I think these problems highlight the need for that kind of conversation.

          • Pufferfish

            I wish I had been paying closer attention to a recent radio program about the history of the shift in Christianity from the original requirement to live as a Christian to just holding Christian beliefs. Happened a long time ago, and helped me understand why so many politicians who are avowed Christians do the most appalling things.

          • PaulLibertarian

            You have been repeatedly disingenuous on this blog. Just look at the rambling apologias you keep offering and false measures of moral relativity between two noticeably different religions and cultures. The Muslims in the west who urged violence against and the outlawing of harmless cartoons, were given everything by the society that nurtured them. NHS, welfare, education etc in fact they are positively discriminated in favour of in parts of the public sector. Yet they choose in substantial numbers to throw that away and make a stance in favour of violent authoritarianism. There were certainly more and are more Muslims on demonstrations against democracy, against freedom of speech, against Jews living in a secure homeland than have ever protested against Al Qaeda or their equivalents.
            On you keep going with your feeble attempts at relativity, you have already made a fool of yourself with insinuations about Northern Ireland (you shifted your position on that one after being called out on it). But when there was ‘Life of Brian’ or the ‘Piss Christ’ artistry many Christians were offended but not one person was killed or riot took place. The two religions and cultures are incompatible. You’ve actually proved this yourself by refusing to be drawn on the life of Muhammad which several commentators here have mentioned to you, your silence is deafening but I think you believe that by not answering a point that undoes your argument you are still correct, you are not.

          • Tim Morrison

            One of the things about debate is that people change their minds. I am more than happy to admit where and when I am wrong.
            Where have I said anything that advocates extremism or condones attempts to deny other people freedom of speech? I absolutely condemn the responses to those cartoons and what happened to Rushdie. I have no problem doing that at all – that kind of behaviour is despicable are are the activities of people like Scott Lively who have been funding attempts to execute gay men. They are morally equivalent.
            Violence against people because of their faith is happening to people in this country on a regular basis – both anti-Semitic and Islamophobic and is being given support by extremists in these posts. Condemn the people on your own side who are making dialogue harder and support those Muslims who arguing for saner interpretations of their Scriptures.

          • pax4pax

            Tim, reading your answers in regard to Jesus, you should find a Reformed theology person and talk with him about Scripture. Your answers would change markedly, I am sure.

          • Pootles

            Where, at the moment, are Christians killing other Christians in the name of Jesus Christ in order to create a Christian state?

          • Tim Morrison

            They were doing that just over the water not that long ago – in this very country. I grant that in Europe they have been pretty peaceful to each other recently but lets not forget the three hundred and fifty post reformation years of slaughter and turmoil.

          • Pootles

            You mean the war between Irish Republicanism and Unionism? In other words a political war. I don’t remember any member of the IRA or the INLA saying they were doing it in the name of Jesus. Did they?
            Pointing to the past is fine, but we are not threatened by a new (Christian) Wars of Religion, anymore than we are threatened by Absolutist Monarchs, the Kaiser, or a Fascist dictator. We are, however, in a situation (moreso in England than in Scotland) where there is a community, a percentage of which believes in Sharia, Jihad, and destroying the West. It is from that community that hundreds (if not thousands) of young people have gone to Syria and Iraq to join the beheaders, the anti-Semites, the anti-Christians, the anti-Shia Muslims. This is a problem here and now, not in the 17th Century.

          • Tim Morrison

            That’s the thing – most wars and imperialisms get dressed up in religious clothes to make themselves look more respectable. One of the innovations of the 20th Century was the secularisation of mass slaughter – they just kept the killing going with less involvement of the clergy. In other words, religion itself is not the issue but its presence may make it easier to dupe the uneducated and the underprivileged into thinking there is some hope based on divine intervention. ‘If you want to make a good man bad, give him a Bible.’
            Part of the problem of disaffected youth is engaging them in discussion – answers must lie in promoting reason, evidence based thinking and economic social justice –
            Compare the opportunities available in the neighbouring communities of Slough and Eaton – class, privilege and access to economic power lie at the root of these problems.

          • Pootles

            But how far does this apply to Islamism ? The ISIL enthusiasts are fighting to create an entirely theocratic ‘state’ (or, rather, something different from a state) . Their sole guide is the Koran and the Hadiths. Their sole intention is to create an Islamic caliphate with no place at all for Jews, Christians and Muslims they don’t agree with. That is an entirely religious project that has political consequences – not the other way around.
            The Eton vs Slough argument is not a strong one. If it was, then we would be facing similar problems with the Sikh community, and we do not have problems with the Sikh community, far, far from it. And, further, the Wahabi version of Islam originates in Saudi – a country (like Qatar) that has plenty of economic power, on a global scale – so why do they go for Islamist Jihad ?

          • Tim Morrison

            I am not arguing for one form of religiosity against another and recognise that within each faith there is a spectrum of beliefs. As a person of no faith at all, I am not saying that one is better than another, but that all have the potential for hideous danger in them by appeals to esoteric truth, claims of salvation and so on. I don’t want to live in a Catholic or Islamic theocracy.

            Religion is one of the ways that authorities legitimise themselves and undermine others. The creed doesn’t matter much. ISIL people are a form of fascists who have to resisted. The Saudi state is a disgrace and very fond of decapitation. it is a barbaric fascism that survives because of its enormous wealth. It doesn’t intervene becasue they would rather subcontract their battles and the opprobrium to the West.
            Eaton/ Slough is the most striking example of extreme privilege that I have ever seen- I found it a shocking experience to walk from the Slough Town Hall through to one of the Eaton train stations – different countries, different hopes – and I think your point is not one that I would disagree with – its not religion or indeed race that are issues but class and entrenched privilege.

          • Pootles

            I’ll go with you on a lot of what you say in your second paragraph.
            As for living in a Catholic theocracy, I don’t think there is any threat of that either in England or Scotland. Further, I don’t think that there are any Catholics who are plotting terror attacks to that end. There are, however, plenty of Islamists who are.
            Eton and Slough, yes a contrast. But ‘class and entrenched privilege’ aren’t the only issues we face.

          • Kennie

            We don’t have very much Christianity in the UK now. It has been undermined to such an extent, that it’s almost illegal.
            The new “religion” in the UK is now MOTD and Football complete with Celebrities. And now, with the next World cup, the Qataris have even bought into that.

          • Ave Ashley Victoria E

            Exactly, and 100% agree. Especially as a Christian. My people are specifically a target along with my Jewish people.

            Atheist and others of other ideologies are a target. They just aren’t scripturally put as much emphasis on as the following listed.

            But, as a generalization. Anyone who opposes Islamic rule. Is still considered an Infidel. One who must be put to death if not converted.

            This is the complete opposite of Christianity.
            Christian (true Christianity) never forced or imposes are beliefs onto anyone. Professing, Expressing, and Vandalizing publicly is very different. Than forcing, killing if those choose that latter or opposition to conversion.

          • Tim Morrison

            My Christianity is true Christianity, your Christianity is not?
            Muslims say the say thing.

          • sevanclaig

            Quit being such a purposeful putz and acknowledge the factual premises instead of straw platitudes.

          • Tim Morrison

            Look at what Ava said … her Christianity never did anything nasty probably because it does not exist- sadly the historical Chritistianity, the real one, not the one of sentiment did – our last Christian Ethnic Cleansing in Europe was less than 30 years ago and is implicit in the biggest child care scandal we have ever seen. Sellling children into slavery. Driving them mad through sexual abuse and so on, and so on. And doing this whilst condemning other people for far less crimes. So who is using the straw platitudes?

          • Ave Ashley Victoria E

            If your referring to Catholicism. Which isn’t Christianity. Then I would agree. Catholicism has also been apart of Political Theocracy. Forcing their will on others. Without giving the individual the choice and freedom. But your opinion is still false. And ignorant of Islamic Ideology mixed with Sharia Law. Which is why it isn’t a religion at all. But a Theocracy.

            Also, just because me being biblically in line and person whom exercises my Faith. In the appropriate manner. Doesn’t make it ‘nonexistent’. Obviously you have no clue what it means to walk in Faith. And adhere (by choice) to Christ and his word. Let alone what his word ‘actually’ say. Not what it’s either been manipulated to say or what it doesn’t say at all.

            However, I should also add that I’m a 2 time sexual assault victim/survivor. Christians 100% ban together to bring justice to crimes against children in these instances. Let alone under any immorality or atrocity that’s brought on by anyone irregardless of what belief system they establish themselves with. As was the case in my unfortunate circumstances.

            To assume otherwise. Based on those ‘who’ claim to be followers of Christ. Is very immature. Sense you merely are taking them at their word. Then concluding ‘all christian must be this way’, that is called stereotyping.

            I thought we were past this. Apparently not.

          • Tim Morrison

            I am sorry that you have experienced terrible things. Other people have too. Bad people do bad things and use whatever faith structures are around to justify themselves.

            I am not sure how you are using the term ‘theocracy’ – Scotland had about 60 years of being a theocratic state a long time ago – and they were pretty sincere Christians who were certainly not Catholics – who behaved like monsters.

            You have no idea of my faith journey and I would ask you to treat it with as much respect as you would want me to treat yours. My guess is that I was probably in the kind of Christian group that you would respect and now have come to reject it.

          • Ave Ashley Victoria E

            I don’t know what you mean’t by this statement:

            “My guess is that I was probably in the kind of Christian group that you would respect and now have come to reject it.”

            What the … !! ??

            Group, I’m not in any group. I’m simply a Christian that lives by the Bible or Gods word. I associate with Christian Nondenominational.
            Meaning I don’t abridge myself with any specific Christian sect.

            Plus groups cause competition and create divisions causing chaos and confusion to outsiders, bystanders, and even followers …

            It also makes way for false prophets. Like the Westbro Baptist Church. They are not Christian whatsoever. Nor do I tolerate their kind. While homosexuality IS a sin. I don’t go around preaching ‘hate’ to those who Sin differently than me. Thing is I’ve actually committed that sin. But my point remains relevant. That God is love even when dolling out justice. Justice comes in many forms. Whether it’s through God intervening himself, or his people spreading his word in the biblically appropriate manner.

          • Tim Morrison

            My assumptions were wrong. I apologise – I thought most Christians valued some kind of community life – things like worship, unaccountably – it is something that tends to balance people –

            . I am curious about how you think God punishes people?
            How you use the Bible? Is any translation you use particularly inspired or do you use the original languages?

          • Merchantman

            Time to realize that Islam has two faces. It is encouraged to lie to get its own way. It kills to do likewise. The later written verses of the Koran; the most violent; have priority over the earlier ones.
            The founder of Christianity came to save people. The founder of Islam took a different path.

          • Ave Ashley Victoria E

            Nope they do not. Islam is by default a Radical Ideology.
            True Christian is a definition used by Christians as I.

            Who refute arguments of past “so-called’ Christians who decided to use Christ in “their own man-made agenda’ which directly is against Biblical Scripture. And that is used as a subjugation to demonize Christians and Christianity as a whole.

            If you actually took the time to study Islam. Islam teaches everything that is considered a Sin and Negative to be met with extreme actions in violence and persecution.

            Whereas the Christian Bible promotes civility, tolerance, respect, love, mercy, grace, forgiveness, and repentance.

            One is a War Ideology met with a Political Force.
            The Other is a Ideology of Peace, Tolerance and Love.

            If you cannot figure out the difference between which one is truly ‘peaceful’ based on the Word. Alone. Then this conversation isn’t going to go anywhere productive.

            Islamist who state that Islam isn’t mean’t to be violent are “Lying” through their teeth. All you have to do is read the Holy Book of Islam. And that completely crushes the concept of ‘peaceful’ Religion.

            Those who are ‘peaceful’ Muslims. Are consider ‘Moderate Muslims’, those whom literally follow a 3rd of the Quran that happens to have any redeeming positive values towards humanity. Technically speaking Moderate Muslims are consider ‘non-practicing’ Islamist.

            Because they aren’t truly following and implementing the full exercise of Islam.

            Your argument and regurgitation of what another one states isn’t ‘fact’. It’s a biased opinion. Baseless and moot. Instead of just taking what others state. You need to research and study for yourself to find the truth.

          • Tim Morrison

            What I mean was there are lots of groups who say we are the real Musilims here – those ones are not.

            How do you explain that for most of its history Christianity was a religion that was spread through war – battles in the Roman Empire, kings like Charlemagne slaughtering the pagans, British Imperialists going to China with boats filled with both Bibles and opiates. Of course you will say, they were not ‘true Christians.’ You are a true Christian – and my guess of true Christian means people who agree with you,

            You talk about the Christian Bible. What on earth does that mean? Do you include the Old Testament and its commands to slaughter the Priests of Baal and dash the heads of babies off rocks? How much of the New Testament do you include? And what about the books of the Apocrypha that are accepted by some Christains and not by others. Clearly some texts are more important than others. Consider one from Matthew;

            “But you are not to be called ‘Rabbi,’ for you have one Teacher, and you are all brothers. 9 And do not call anyone on earth ‘father,’ for you have one Father, and he is in heaven. 10 Nor are you to be called instructors, for you have one Instructor, the Messiah. 11 The greatest among you will be your servant. 12 For those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted.

            Now there is clear command from Jesus not to use the term ‘father’ – yet it is by far the most common term for Christian clergy world wide. What he actually said does not seem to mean much to his followers. Certainly bishops, television evangelists and most priests don’t pay any attention to that.

          • Ambientereal

            It is also interesting to point that Jesus explicitly told his followers to avoid confrontation between religion and politics. He said something like “Givet to God what is of God and to the Caesar what is of Caesar” while islam recognizes no law but sharia. Every time I rationalize about Jesus words I´m impressed how “modern” he was. His word have not lost actuality even 2000 years later.

          • lookout

            How could His words lose meaning, they were spoken by the creator of everything, ” nothing was made except through Him.

          • Ambientereal

            Please forgive me, but although I am somehow christian, I actually try to be absolutely objective without letting my faith to guide my commonsense. I am convinced that Jesus teachings are useful for the peaceful coexistence of different cultures even without faith. In the same way I look to the ten commandments.

          • TotallyPeeved

            How are you planning to peacefully coexist with a barbaric murderous cult that will kill you if you do not SUBMIT?

          • Ambientereal

            Hi!! Thank you for reading my comment 5 months later. I meant that Jesus words (if followed by everyone) could be useful for the coexistence of different cultures. Of course muslim will never follow Jesus words although they claim him to be one of their prophets.

          • Pootles

            Indeed. Although that very verse did rather lead to about 1700 years of Church vs State argument.

          • Ian Crause

            Most Christianity, apart from the really rather important bit about loving people, comes from the precedents of Roman paganism, including the idea of the separation of state and religion – an idea which harks back to anti-Caesarean Republicanism in the light of Augustus’ bid for divinity. It was a handy way for the early Christians not to antagonise the powers that be and go the same way as the Bar Kochba revolt.

          • Andy Mason

            actually, most ancient religions, before
            Christianity taught tolerance. Chrisitianity and other religions of a western modern nature do not. Most of these modern
            christian and Muslim religions teach that to not believe what they teach means condemnation in hell or wherever.

          • Ian Crause

            The pagan religions of the near east may not have had a particularly strong concept of moral damnation – though they did have one, as any reader of the events which befell the Atreides for just one example would attest – but neither did they preach ‘tolerance’ for other faiths. This is because these cults were not global faiths but were local cults, tribally moored to the regions and city states they represented. Hence, when peoples were defeated their Gods were defeated, too. So saying Graeco Roman paganism taught tolerance misses the point as the reach of these tales into ontology and meaning was largely through art and myth. Only once Christianity was born did the neoplatonists appear and begin the serious fusing of ontology and morality (the idea that the universe has a moral aspect) which Christianity then nicked from them to a large degree. The trinity is pagan, as I guess you know. But still the main difference between Xtianity and GR paganism was that Xtianity preached love, understanding and acceptance of weakness, at least while it was still the religion of ‘slaves and women’. Roman Imperial warfare, all the way into the late middle ages got no more brutal under Jesus than it had been under Apollo.

          • Ranger Ginger

            Unless you have lived in Northern Ireland and suffered the indoctrination of the churches everyday that you lived! That you were taught different histories in you school, that you even participated in different sports! You will see that it is not a “political” war but a religious one! Religion is politics, it is a way of telling people how to live their lives, what to think and how that should be implemented! The only difference in the people that live their is their religion! You have right wing catholics and protestants, you have left wing catholics and protestants, you have tolerant and intolerant just like anywhere! Having lived their I also once thought that it was “politics” but it is religious politics and not social! As for Christians committing atrocities how about this! http://www.amnesty.org/en/news/central-african-republic-ethnic-cleansing-sectarian-violence-2014-02-12

          • Pootles

            Yes, a political war with religious/cultural elements, but a political war nonetheless. On one side Irish Republicanism (and Nationalism) and on the other Loyalism-Unionism. And right back to the beginning of modern Republicanism one can find Roman Catholics on the Unionist side, and Protestants on the Republican/Nationalist side – the most famous, of course, being Wolfe Tone. The diffferent sports business is also an expression of political difference, with, for example, the GAA banning all British servicemen from their pitches.
            As for the murderous Christians in your link, well, they are doing all that in direct contravention of the teachings of Christ. But, if they were Islamists, they could point to the teachings and life of Mohammed to support their actions. A difference.

          • Deedee Gross

            Christians, either in Ireland or anywhere else, are not calling today for the destruction of all non-Christians. You either have never seriously learned about Islam and the Koran, or you are writing to maintain a weird liberal or political opinion that you need to continue believing in.

          • Alistair Kerr

            Quite right, Pootles. If the IRA or the Loyalist militias had been remotely influenced by Christianity, instead of using it like a football-supporter’s colours, they would have listened to their religious leaders and ended the armed strugghle, or never begun it.

          • Joanne

            No, uh uh. I think Morrison was referring to the wars of religion between Catholics and Protestants that occurred mainly in the 16th and 17th centuries throughout western and central Europe. The IRA came onto the scene a bit later.

          • Pootles

            That’s not how I read, ‘They were doing that just over the water not that long ago – in this very country.’ And I mentioned the Wars of Religion later in my discussion with Tim.

          • SOMARA556

            Yes, let’s not forget history, but let’s not forget what is happening right here and now either.

          • petepassword

            No they weren’t. The Northern Ireland armed struggle was against an occupying country, not a rteligion. You should do some reading and educate yourself. The fact that the occupier, William of Orange, used Scots protestants as an army of occupation means their descendents are protestants and in bad faith with the country of Ireland, so they hate catholics, who are of course Irish. But theis is a colonial struggle not religious war.

          • Tim Morrison

            That’s my point – I would never say that it was not a colonial war but you cannot deny that many of the people involved thought they were dying for their faith and no matter how spurious, religion was used to justify what happened. William of Orange would not have got very far if he had been a Catholic and his father in law had been Protestant.

          • Wee Scitter

            Did you get that version of history on Wikipedia? Nice work from the IRA “volunteers” of Wikiland.

          • Mamasheadtrip

            What’s your point, exactly? Every group of people, every nation has violence in its past. Should that justify further & continuing violence? Or prevent us from decrying it? Or are you so crippled by political correctness that you can’t see that while ‘teaching our kids to hate’ is not the answer, neither is teaching them that by virtue of our violent and otherwise imperfect ancestors, we have no right to criticize modern-day Islam.

          • Tim Morrison

            As I said elsewhere on this page, teaching rational thinking, evidence based reasoning and humanistic values are at the heart of what needs to happen. Self reflection and self criticism as well as respect for but not unthinking subservience to the law are also important.

            Being honest about our imperialist past and learning from mistakes may be part of this. We have every right to criticise modern-day Islam – and also Christianity. Extremism is something to be resisted wherever it arises. Most of us will not realise when we are being extreme and the process of self-reflection will help us see ourselves as others see us.

          • PaulLibertarian

            Are you on drugs? That conflict was between Loyalists and republicans those are political ideologies numbnuts!

          • Tim Morrison

            Catholic priests convicted of running arms and killing people. Protestant pastors reviewing paramilitary troops. You can at least say their faith didn’t interfere with their desire to kill people. I suppose being a libertarian, you are allowed to call other people names.

          • Damaris Tighe

            They did it despite their faith, not because of it.

          • PaulLibertarian

            Yup, starting with stone age theocratic death cults.

          • Nick L

            You have absolutely zero knowledge of what caused the conflict in Northern Ireland do you? The level of discrimination against the Catholic population was extensive and politically entrenched, from the lowest public jobs to positions of political influence the Protestants made sure that Catholics were excluded. This, in turn, gave the IRA the water to swim in. The term gerrymander originates in Northern Ireland, the first atrocities were committed by the Shankhill Butchers, a Protestant death squad.

            What followed was carnage on both sides. Bloody Sunday happened during a civil rights march, Catholics looking
            for their civil rights. To claim that this was a conflict based in politics is fatuous. Religion came first, then the politics.

            Reading these comments is a bit like reading a German newspaper in the Thirties. As in Bosnia, where Christian Serbs massacred Bosnian Muslims (who more than likely were as Muslim as most peopl here are CofE), these
            sentiments always end in camps.

          • PaulLibertarian

            Who are you to lecture anyone on NI? You are incorrect on everything you say.

            1. ‘ The level of discrimination against the Catholic population was extensive and politically entrenched, from the lowest public jobs to positions of political influence the Protestants made sure that Catholics were excluded.’ Actually working class Protestants were and still are discriminated against. Besides Westminster promptly legislated after 1970 and disbanded large elements of the police actually leaving the RUC unarmed for a period. There was no legal discrimination against Catholics from 1971 onwards. Still 25 years of state sponsored Republican terrorism from pseudo communist thugs followed.

            2. Your next piece of crap: ‘the first atrocities were committed by the Shankill Butchers, a Protestant death squad.’ Notwithstanding the fact that the crown prosecuted and imprisoned the Shankill Butchers that was in 1979, hardly making them the first killers of the troubles.

            3. This is so tiring: ‘What followed was carnage on both sides. Bloody Sunday happened during a civil rights march, Catholics looking for their civil rights.’ No it did not the paras fired on rioters whom they believed were luring them into an urban ambush. Yes innocent people died but it happened once. Interestingly MM refused to give evidence at the Saville enquiry I wonder what he was hiding? The fact is that the Paras were fired on first, however unjustified elements of their reaction to that may have been.

            4. ‘Reading these comments is a bit like reading a German newspaper in the Thirties.’ More childish hyperbole, have you read many 1930’s German Newspapers? Perhaps you stick to Socialist Worker. Religion was only ever tangentially involved in the NI conflict. Socialism however does not escape judgement quite so easily either in NI, Germany (with their National Socialist German Workers party) or half a hundred other places.

          • Wee Scitter

            The IRA had been launching military attacks against NI since before its first government even sat, and tried to subvert and undermine it by every means possible. The problem was that there was not enough discrimination against them, not too much!

            The rest is another laughable IRA version of history with numerous factual errors that I can’t be bothered going into, most likely obtained from Wikipedia or some other laughable source.

          • Tom Allalone

            Absolute nonsense – Guardian level whataboutery. There were Catholic Unionists and Protestant Republicans. For about the thousandth time, we’ve moved on and Islam hasn’t but still the apologists repeat the same old garbage

          • Tim Morrison

            In the north of Ireland you could be pretty certain about someone’s politics from their religion. In some parts of Scotland too. I don’t think society has changed so much in 30 odd years that we can be complacent.

            Part of the habit to be resisted is labelling arguments rather than refuting them. I am a Spectator reader

          • Tom M

            Sorry to but in but that comment about Scottish politics is just nonsense. As far as NI goes your wrong there as well. There are plenty of people in NI who have the same politics but some would like to remain in the UK and others be part of Ireland.
            Apart from that reading your other responses you give me the impression you tying yourself up in your own arguments.
            It is of historical interest only as to what the Christian religion is guilty of or any moral equivalence you care to draw with other religions.
            Christians (and most other religions) accept and recognise there are and have been many shortcomings throughout history as opposed to Muslims in general and the IS in particular who don’t recognise anything other than their religious supremacy and are prepared to do anything to promote this. Be thankful they aren’t armed with nuclear weapons.
            As Napoleon said “some people see too much”. This applies to you.
            The problem at the moment is that we have a large group of religious
            psychopaths running amok in the Middle East with expansionist aspirations. Many of their adherants are
            born, bred and living in the UK. This is not the time for profound philosophical debates.

          • Tim Morrison

            Christian sectarianism has devastated the history of Scotland and in particular the west of the country for generations – the hideous catholic/ protestant rivalries are not ancient history and have left a legacy of separate education, football violence and so on. Whilst nothing like as bad as it was, its decline cannot be taken for granted. Two documents you may find interesting are:

            http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Resource/Doc/90629/0021809.pdf

            http://www.glasgow.gov.uk/CHttpHandler.ashx?id=9735

            The Islamic State must be condemned as must regimes like The Saudi Arabian Government but i don’t see how bombing people indiscriminately into submission is going to work now when Western interventions in the last 20 years has made terrible situations even worse.

            Nor do I see how blanket condemnations of some of the kinds that have been made in these pages help promote any form of peace or understanding between peoples. Islam cannot be outlawed in Britain nor should it be. Hate speech can and must be challenged – including reflection on one’s own behaviour and language.

          • Tom M

            For God’s sake stay on the same point for more than two words.
            Nobody said sectarianism didn’t exist in Scotland (I know I lived there for 40 years). You conflated sectarianism with a knowledge of people’s politics. That is plain nonsense.
            You don’t see how bombing people into submission is going to work. I imagine you would have said that in 1939 as well.

          • Tim Morrison

            You attacked me on two fronts – about the confation of sectariansim and politics and about being a 1939 appeaser.

            Of course religion was not an absolute predictor of politics in NI during the troubles and since they have ended much less so but they were to some extent. 75% of NI Catholics supported Nationalist parties in 2005. Less now – interesting article here http://www.theulsterfolk.com/2014/06/do-unicorns-eat-flags.html/
            Sectarianism, politics and rather nasty corruption were connected in parts of the West of Scotland for a long time until all the
            rules changed in the univeral hatred that Thatcher awoke. The Orange
            Order (now happily declining fast) was closely allied to the Scottish
            Conservative and Unionist Party. These kinds of anti-Catholic nastiness were more like to be expressed in cultural and social institutions it is true rather in voting intentions but there were still powerful and effective http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.2307/25530138?uid=3738032&uid=2&uid=4&sid=21104278593231
            In the recent referendum there were well founded concerns that these kinds of issues would awake again. http://blogs.channel4.com/gary-gibbon-on-politics/paisleys-death-revives-memories-sectarian-scotland/29141

            On your second front: islamofacism must be dealt with – I am not denying that. The 1939 war took rather a lot of land troops and who in Britain is advocating that we should engage in that kind of response or would say that we are under that kind of threat? This bombing might hinder ISIS or even shrink it for a couple of years but do you really think it is going to destroy this terrifying mixture of religious ideology and facism? We have to oppose it but I don’t see how British bombs are going to do anything but re-enforce stereotypes and hatred.

            Bombs alone are not going to work – we do not have the resources any more for the massive land war that would be needed (not least because of what the Tories are doing to the armed forces)- therefore other responses are needed.

          • Ian Crause

            I think the one thing which differentiates this from the Northern Irish situation is that life under a Republican led political administration or under a Unionist led administration, which for the other sector would mean discrimination, never did entail the esablishment of a fascist society. I think the parallels about religion are perfectly fair but the society this faction aims to create is clearly a fascist caliphate. While both paramilitaries had their fair share of the despicable and criminal it was never IRA or UDF policy to set up a sexual slavery network for their adherents. This is the sort of thing the Serbian paramilitaries, the NAZIs and the Japanese did.

            Therein lies the difference, I think.

          • Tim Morrison

            You are right tho at the best that is mitigation. There was still the unofficial justice system and the drug running on both sides.

          • ADW

            But that’s the whole point. Through Lollardism, the Reformation, world wars etc etc Europe grew up. Islam never has.

          • wri7913

            350 year of reformation or the inquisition doesnt even come close to the 1400 years and 250 million dead laid at the door of Islam.

          • Tim Morrison

            If you are going to take all the dead caused by a religion then you are going to have to go back with Christianity to Constantine the Great, consider Charlemagne and the forced conversion of Scandinavia – so that’s just Christians versus the pagans. For the sake of argument let’s not include was crimes committed by Christians in imperialistic wars of expansion in non-Christian lands that were partly intended to spread the Gospel – so expansion in South America – the Catholic Church did at least try and stop the barbarity there.
            But you do have to consider the inter-confessional wars – civil wars in France, Ireland and then in Germany – say a full century of slaughter that destroyed about a third of the population of the Holy Roman Empire.
            We then have the social persecutions to think of – destruction of Albigensians witches, Jews and so on.
            Then if we are going to come up more to date – what about the Ustase and the ethnic cleansing against Muslims in the former Yugoslavia.
            I am not saying that Christian history is worse than Islamic history because they have crimes like the Armenian genocide at their door. Western naivety about the inherent niceness of Buddhists has been rather knocked to hell by recent events in Burma.

            The point seems to be that whenever politicians pick up icons of any creed to get the poor and dispossessed on their side we are going to have a long and bitter fight to get back to any form of rationality.

          • Deedee Gross

            That’s just silly. Are you saying that Muslims should not be held to account because they are all centuries behind the West? That’s either a racist remark (let’s not demand anything of them that we would demand of ourselves, because they’re not as good as we are), or a remark that has not been well thought out.

          • Tim Morrison

            I can certainly accept that I am not always well thought out so let me be clear. I am arguing that the fundamentalist mindset is dangerous and takes different forms depending on what is allowed to get away with in different cultures.
            I see little material difference between the outcomes of Christian and Islamic fundamentalists. People who act on a received wisdom that is exclusive to themselves are dangerous to other people if they have too much power.
            I do not think that extremes in either faith discredit or taint their co-religionists. The Archbishop of Canterbury is not in the same category as the Rwandan bishop who was advocating genocide. http://www.rci.rutgers.edu/~lcrew/dojustice/j245.html
            In particular I am not stating that western culture is more advanced than eastern ones. Anyone who can say that after the monstrous imperialism and genocides and of the last one hundred years is doolally.

          • Deedee Gross

            Islam as a religion clearly calls for men to dominate women and children, and is open to violent means for this purpose. My family and I have many Muslim friends, and I have studied this religion in various ways. There is no doubt that it preaches a highly misogynistic way of life, not just anti-gay. There is also no doubt that it is tolerant of violence as a correction tool within the family/society. Anything else is not considered really Muslim, and those who do not practice the “right” Islamic way of life are considered heretics and are subject to either ridicule at best, or most usually violence. But if you just take the very radical fringe believers, they amount to hundreds of millions of people – a much higher number than the radicals in any other religion. You cannot compare this to the handful of crazies that you can find everywhere. When you talk to moderate Muslims, you find that – after initially expressing their support for all Muslim brothers – they admit that they would be killed by these radicals in a second. And they are a very small minority of the 1.5 billion Muslims in the world. of which most would not kill, but would not do anything to stop others killing in the name of Islam.

          • Tim Morrison

            Thanks for your response I think you may have made my point. The same thing cans be said about Christians world wide I am afraid -the neo-cons who are Christians in the US are hardly on the side of peace and justice – even attacking socialised medicine as the work of the Devil.

            I am not seeing values of self-restraint amongst the people who are calling themselves Christians here – no matter what their religion says – seem very happy to wage wars that they have little chance of winning and to drop bombs in ways that almost guarantee the death of innocent people.

            In terms of sexism, the Church of England has only in the last months allowed women to become bishops. Women in catholic churches are allowed nowhere near the priesthood and well let’s not start on traditional Jewish attitudes. And homophobia – well British churches are pulling themselves apart on this very issue and certain US evangelical churches have actually been funding campaigns to support the death penalty for gay men in Uganda. I have no doubt whatsoever how some American and African churches would treat people like me given the opportunity – http://www.publiceye.org/publications/globalizing-the-culture-wars/pdf/full-executive-summary.pdf.

          • Deedee Gross

            Thanks, Tim. However, you do not address my comments about the level of violence that is not only acceptable among those of the Muslim faith, but actually required when “educating” a wife or child, and you seem to think that comparing the Church of England’s permission to allow women into the clergy/bishophood is equal to turning the large majority of women into no more than their husband’s property. You also seem to think that what is gleefully being to done Christians/women/gays/children in the Muslim world (in Muslim and non-Muslim countries) is comparisable to funding political campaigns in a non-democratic country. I support equal rights for all. That means that I do not support countries/religions/campaigns that harm equal rights – all Middle-Eastern countries (except Israel, which just held its Jerusalem gay parade a couple of weeks ago), all Muslim countries, and all Muslim societies that strictly adhere to their Muslim way of life, and do not progress beyond it. It does not mean that I support rights for only those who are “like me”, and treat Muslims differently, because I don’t want to appear bigoted. I am actually campaigning very hard to make the progressive and truly moderate Muslims’ voice heard against the Muslim majority’s racist and misogynistic ways. It is their responsibility to get the truth out there, and to fight against violations of human rights.

          • Tim Morrison

            i agree with you on most of what you have said. The point of difference is that I do think that US Christians who support campaigns for the death penalty for gay men are guilty of murder and it appears that the US courts in the current prosecution of Scott Lively have something to say about it too.

            Changing standards about the treatment of minorities in the West have nothing or little to do with faith – some believers have resisted progress at every turn and indeed participated in atrocities when given an opportunity- think of some of the responses to violence against children. When people get religious power and feel unaccountable to anyone but God they get wicked and will find texts to support themselves – spare the rod and spoil the child – suffer no witch to live – and so on.

            Positive changes have everything to do with advances in education, scientific reasoning, access to medicine and so on and also the demands of minorities to be treated as equals. We cannot be complacent about what has been achieved at all – and that’s why we all have to be watchful about what is being doing by the far left and the far right. One of the terrifying images that shocked most of us of in Scotland was after the Referendum when Protestant thugs were waving Union Jacks and giving Nazi salutes in Glasgow.

            So economic advancement, education – especially for women – promoting genuine democratic structures are ways of ending extremism. Pretty sure we would agree on that.

          • Deedee Gross

            The Palestinian people are the most educated of all Arab peoples. This is a fact, they have the most universities and degrees per 1,000 people. But they support the terrorist group Hamas’ murderous acts, when polled in a Pew survey they supported killing Muslims who wish to leave their faith, and they supported honor killings and stoning women caught in adultery. Al Queda’s Bin Laden was a very well educated man, coming from an extremely wealthy family. Young men and women from the democratic states of America and Europe, who travel to the Middle East to fight in the ranks of terrorists, all come from a middle and upper middle-class background (see the article we’re currently commenting on). I’m afraid your last argument doesn’t hold water, please check your resources and facts.
            Nazi salutes and reference are just a shock/rhetoric measure, because the western world is still reeling from the trauma of WWII. But feeling guilty for having done nothing to counter Hitler until directly attacked does not condone Europe’s reluctance to call a spade a spade. The majority of Muslims in Europe, and also in Scotland, are not assimilating, are not accepting democratic values over Sharia. If you look at the birth rates, the minority whose rights you are trying to protect will overrule democracy in your children’s lifetime. They will not hesitate to run over the minority of moderate Muslims in this process.
            I love Scotland. I only wish that Scots would be more equal-rights orientated, meaning that everyone, including minorities, will also be expected to toe the line as equal human beings in the name of democratic values. Freedom of speech? Yes. Not Freedom of Violence/Racism/ Boycotting/Hate acts. Women’s rights? Then effing get up and protect Muslim women’s rights, too.

          • Tim Morrison

            Palestine is a huge prison camp – land being consistently stolen in illegal land grabs – people denied opportunities for work, trade and so on. Hardly a normal situation.

            The majority of Musilims in Scotland are assimilating. Your arguments are the kind that were made against Irish Catholics in the late 19th century and created the sectarian hatred we are just getting rid of now. The biggest factor that changes birth rate is access to education for women and economic power. If fertility was just about religion, Catholic Europe would not be having population issues.
            Racism in England – (go on say its not there) – entrenches divides and makes integration almost impossible.

            Bin Landen was a very wealthy young man – and his family directly connected to the Bush administration – he was one of those people who use religion to seize power – who see it as an opportunity for self advancement – exactly the kind of man who gets direct benefits from the fundamentalist mindset.

            Where have I said anything about not wanting people to adopt decent standards of equal rights/ opportunities? You just don’t get there by the kind of hysterical shouting on these pages that entrenches people on both sides of the debate. Joint activity and meeting people changes things. Claire Stevens shows how this works on her stepson.

            People who promote hate against other groups and do oppressive things must be stopped – be they Imams, Police or Catholic clergy. So anyone one who attacks human rights needs to pay a price for that. I don’t disagree with you at all.

          • Deedee Gross

            You also don’t get people to adopt decent standards of equal rights/opportunities by ignoring the call of an entire community for the destruction of democracy as you know it. This is not a fear tactic, I don’t believe in them. This is the simple truth, based on people’s writings and speeches. It is a difficult situation – these people’s rights are protected by the very democracy that they want to destroy. I believe in democracy and I also believe that it is the best system out there. I would not dream of enabling others to use democracy’s values as its very own self destruct button. “Liberal” and “progressive” have recently taken on a new definition for me; like all things – they can go too far, if they cause people to ignore the very straightforward and honest reality around them. Claire Stevens shows how this worked in her home.

          • Tim Morrison

            But bearing in mind that people here – into the second and third generation – what do you suggest? Do you intend to ban an entire religion? Close down all its places of worship? How will that help? I am not being facetious but I can see no alternative but patient engagement and arresting people where necessary who engage in abuse, advocate terrorism or violent overthrow of the state.
            Claire Stevens’ son is coming back to her. Its a long slown process – as would have happened if he had fallen into almost any other adolescent extreme activity. If she had thrown him out he would have been lost to them for ever.

          • Abbey Lane

            I suppose Adolf Hitler had been raised a Christian but we’re so removed nowadays. Whatever you say, there’s no way you can excuse these ISIS savages. Thing is, I don’t think many people writing on this page have ever done such evil atrocities?

          • Tim Morrison

            I am not excusing any violent action based on religious or political bigotry. I am saying that Christianity and Islam both get misused.
            I am sure that no one reading this page has remotely considered supporting a Government carrying out an illegal war or doing business with war criminals. I am confident of that and would not suggest it.

          • Auntiemilibland

            I would like you to tell me one such instance over the last ten years where a group of Christians in this country took to beheading or killing a follower of Islam stating they were following the teachings of Christ and reciting chapter and verse from the bible. We’ve experienced 7/7, the Muslims in London verbally abusing people for walking past a mosque and them not approving of their dress, their sexuality etc. they weren’t charged with a hate crime. What you’re actually saying is that Christians are as bad because centuries ago we fought these barbarians under the name of Christianity so these murderers in the modern age are justified. I certainly don’t think I’m the only one who has picked up on your stupid comments with reference to days of yore, unlike you we live in the here and now and whatever you think this is the way of Islam and it will continue to be so until it is outlawed as a vile, inhuman religion, cult, club or whatever else you want to call it.

          • Tim Morrison

            I am saying that fundamentalist habits of thinking are dangerous. Christians in Africa are killing people whose sexuality they disapprove of. The execution of gay men is one thing that certain Islamic and Christian groups both agree on.
            My point is that those extremist behaviour does not taint the reputation of their co-religionists.

            How do you intend to outlaw Islam? Are you advocating closing down Mosques and interning all Muslims? Are you going to burn all copies of the Quran? Do you advocate compulsory apostasy?

          • Auntiemilibland

            We are a Christian country, with a sovereign who is head of the church, anybody who can’t swear an allegiance to this country and accept our laws shouldn’t be given a visa let alone a passport, if the mosques are responsible for the radicalisation of these murderers then yes they should be closed, it is up to the so called peaceful Muslims to police their communities, unfortunately they wont as it is against the Koran to speak ill of one of their kind to the Kufar what these “peaceful” Muslims are saying is they will deal with it under Sharia law, oh yeah just when will that be then. I would have more belief in “peaceful” Islam if they joined the forces in their millions, we can train them then they can go and fight these horrendous people committing atrocities in their name. There shouldn’t be one drop of blood spilled by our regular armed forces as it isn’t our fight. Our fight is here on British soil to eradicate this vile scum. There wont be any Muslims joining up soon!!

          • Cumberland

            Christians who commit any atrocity are going against the teachings of Christ, while the activities of islamic activists like ISIS are obeying the commands of Mohammad as written in the Quran/islamic scripture.

          • http://www.picsofcelebrities.net/blog/2012/05/08/voice-season-finale Cromulent

            So you haven’t actually *read* the Quran, have you?

          • Tim Morrison

            I don’t claim expertise in it. I have read enough to know that I don’t want to be a Muslim. I certainly have no Arabic and would always be at the mercy of translators.
            Happily I am not in that position with the New Testament (though not the Old) and was once fluent in Biblical Greek.
            I am fascinated about how believers have demonstrated their faith in these posts. They are full of examples of Christians turning the other cheek and forgiving their enemy in just the way they want to be forgiven. Peace, justice and mercy are constant themes running through them.

            You say, “Simply put, friends don’t let friends become Muslim. If you can’t parent the boy properly, try being his friend.”
            I am not sure what this means and I certainly don’t know how you would stop your friends changing their faith.

          • http://www.picsofcelebrities.net/blog/2012/05/08/voice-season-finale Cromulent

            You need not be at the mercy of translators. As an English speaker all you need is the Pickthall version. Walk into any Muslim bookstore and with your face they’ll point you to it. In fact they’ll recommend it. Its quite good. Pickthall picked the evil side, but he was an erudite man and could write a good sentence.

            The Quran ain’t like the Bible. Its structure is quite different. Drawing a moral equivalence between the two is almost a form of bigotry against Islam.

            Yes, the Bible contains stories of people doing horrible things. But where are the normatives in the New Testament that equal those in the Quran?

            I’m getting lost now; this thread is so long that I can’t find the post of yours I was originally responding to. Disqus doesn’t handle long threads well. So I’m having problems finishing my point.

            Basically the Quran commands its followers to forever fight the infidel; to convert him if possible and to kill or otherwise subjugate him if necessary.

            There are plenty of Quranic verses that preach love and peace. Certainly Muslims are to treat one another with love and peace.

            But the infidels? Not so much. Verses early (chronologically, not necessarily the physical order in the book itself – its confusing) in the Quran preach love for all. For infidels those are abrogated by later verses, corresponding to Muhammad’s emergence as a warlord. Those verses were never abrogated themselves.

            In other words, the Bible & Quran are not at all similar. Jesus & Mohammad were not at all similar.

          • Tim Morrison

            Thank you very much for your thoughful reply. I am not saying that the Bible and Quran are similar at all. What I am saying is that the ways believers of different creeds use religious texts to back up their often extreme behaviour is often very similar and normally highly selective. Most groups loose portions of texts that are not congenial or do not fit in with their own current needs.
            My argument is not with either Christianity or Islam but with fundamentalisms that claim to lock up all wisdom into one received text and its interpretation. Effectively scriptural interpretation is rather like the constant
            attempts of the US Supreme Court to fits its consitution to
            circumstances it was never intended to cope with. The rules appropriate for desert camps under Moses or Mohammed cannot be simply applied to the 21st century.
            Jesus is rather different i agree to both Moses and Mohammed in that in no sense was he a warlord. He was a story teller and his parables, rather like Aesop, are so general that they still remain useful. Many of his beliefs are less so – I am not sure that many people would hold to the demonic basis of mental illness now.
            The key issue is selection – we have to address the reasons why people feel the need to commit hateful crimes and justify them from ancient texts. Simple blanket condemnations of all Islam help no one and simply reinforce the belief on both sides that any form of communication is impossible. We have to demonstrate that dialogue is possible and can achieve tangible results.

          • wri7913

            We are not discussing “atrocities” by Christians because there simply haven’t been many since the reformation of Christianity in the middle ages and beyond.

          • Ian Crause

            Mass persecutions of Jews in Eastern Europe qualify.

          • stupocalypse

            “Nothing equals the evil written in the Qur’an,”

            I’ll be generous and assume you’ve read the Qur’an, maybe you should try the Bible next…

          • Ambientereal

            Yes, islam is so generous with unbelievers that only take the head and let the body intact.

          • stupocalypse

            That’s a no then.

          • Omar

            Westboro is one church in one town in one state in one country. No one claims them and they speak for no one but themselves. In fact, many of them are related.
            ISIS is simply salafi islam on jihad. Their rhetoric and the Grand Shiekh of SA’s theology is simply indistinguishable. They enjoy strong financial and theological support – that’s how they recruit young, committed muslims, both men and women, to their cause. Among Saudi’s 80-90 percent see them, their goals and methods as FULLY Islamic.

          • Udith Fonseka

            Westboro Church is not even that—it is one man and his immediate family.

          • Ave Ashley Victoria E

            As a Christian. That isn’t in line with Christian scripture.
            And you have a point. While I hate my enemies. Christ teaches us (painfully) to “Love” are enemies. Even when they want us annihilated.

            I do not recognize Muslims. As a religion.
            It’s a Theocracy, because it corresponds not just with a ideological belief system but it is ingrained in Politics.

            Unlike Christianity, it seeks to be implemented into the American Government. Hence, Sharia Law.

            1st Amendment states that it protects Freedom of Religion.
            Not Freedom FROM Religion. Meaning any Religious person, Religious belief system as long as it doesn’t under Constitutional Law impose forcefully on another. Publicly, Media wise, professing, expressing one’s religious beliefs in supported and protected by our First Amendment.

            The reason Islam doesn’t fall under Religion. Is because it puts Politics + Ideology together and neither can be separated apart.

            Hating Islam is justified over hating Christianity. Islam is written and controlled under a mindset of hate, with a hateful, unmerciful, unforgiving God.
            Which is different from the Christian God.
            It also seeks to intentionally rid the world of those who refuse to convert to it. And also already has scripturally written of who is specifically a target.

            In reference to the Westbro Baptist Church. Christians absolutely ‘hate’ them. Not them AS People. But their actions which is in complete contradictory of Biblical Scripture. (With exception of Homosexuality being a Sin.)

            Christians are taught to Tolerate Homosexuals.
            Tolerating is very different then ‘hating’ or ‘accepting’.

            I am a Christian and I am not prejudice of Homosexuals. I don’t have to agree with their lifestyle choices. But I can still respect them, love them and still also allow them their choices to do what they please.

            This is the difference between those who ‘claim’ to be Christ Followers and those who truly are. I would be the true definition of a person of Faith. Of thee Christian Faith.

            I would agree with the point you are trying to make … 🙂

          • Mamasheadtrip

            Yeah except Westboro Baptist Church is a small isolated group without broader community support and with no foreign government or widespread grass roots funding. Whereas Islamicism has infected the entire globe and their supporters number in the millions. How many moderate Xtians are running away from home to become Westboro Baptists?

          • Dryermartinithanyours

            Great point you make Willshome, though is it not also a little weak to compare 0.0000000001% of Christians with a dramatically higher proportion of Islamics on the subject of intolerance? Modern Christianity having evolved to ‘God is Love’ with 99.99% of Christians acting accordingly, yet with Islam having reverted to Old Testament days we left at the dawn of real civilization? If only it were true of the bulk of Islam, but it’s not. But there is a match here for people who want to hide from the truth. As Algirdis Degutis wrote a decade ago, the liberal left and Islam are ideal for one another, because this is where absolute intolerance meets suicidal hospitality. There simply aren’t Buddhist or Christian terrorists. Even if Old Testament Judaism and Islam are counterparts, as they obviously are, there’s just one liberal progressive state in the Middle East.

          • global city

            It is such a rare event in Christianity that you are fully aware of their existence.

          • wri7913

            Islam is no different than Islamists.

            An Islamist wants to behead you while a moderate simply holds your feet while the Islamist beheads you.

          • Deedee Gross

            I hate to say it or admit it to myself, but you are wrong. WBC is the more bigoted and radical of Christianism, but it doesn’t cover women from head to foot or make them walk five steps behind their men or whip them when they dare to report rape.WBC doesn’t treat their children as second-rate members of the family. WBC may not marry into other faiths, but they do not call for their destruction, either. Islam does all that, and more, and view Muslims who fails to do all of the above as infidels. This is Islam. Not Islamism.

          • cartimandua

            And there are about 10 Westboro nuts compared to millions of Muslims just in the UK who espouse fundy versions of Islam.
            Its about scale.

          • TotallyPeeved

            So one criminal, democratic family calls themselves a baptist church and they get to speak for Christianity. But pisslam, which is just pisslam is different from pisslam?

          • fatcat

            I’m not so sure the experts agree with you here, willshome. Over whiskey at Millroy’s in Soho last week, the UK’s top political analyst for Middle East at the UN told me that in the diplomatic corps, everyone knows that ISIS is the real Islam. The reason we don’t hear this more often is because the press still loves to make a good-meaning politician into a good xenophobe. Best article on the reality driving ISIS? Read this: http://www.theatlantic.com/features/archive/2015/02/what-isis-really-wants/384980/

        • Mamasheadtrip

          Teaching our kids to hate stuff is not the answer. More like speak to them openly and arm them with facts and knowledge, which is the only protection they have against anything.

          • Tim Morrison

            Now that I do agree with. Thank you

          • Janet Graham Johnson

            Teaching our children right from wrong; to stand up for themselves when accosted, listen and respect our children as individuals, and again, train up our children from an early age the ways of our Lord God the they will not stray from the truth.

          • Hogspace

            We teach them to hate fascism and the Nazis. This much is correct. We must extend it to include Communism and Islam.

          • Terry Field

            The threat from communism was a cake-walk when compared to Islam.

          • Wee Scitter

            And what do you think has allowed so much Islam to infiltrate the UK? If it is such a “cake walk” then why is cultural Marxism still preventing us from doing anything about the problem?

          • Terry Field

            Why use such a ridiculous and utterly childish phrase as ‘cultural Marxism’. You are one of those odd people who squeeze reality into into your bizarre framework. You try to sound clever; sadly you sound idiotic. We are all laughing at you.

          • Wee Scitter

            Because it describes exactly the ideology that has brought the hordes of third worlders to Western countries unchallenged in the first place, much more precisely describing the origins of the ideology than the equivalent vague phrase of “political correctness” ever will. It is Marxism/Communism applied to other aspects of “class” other than financial. It is the reason why Western society no longer believes in the Civilization that made it great in the first place, and instead only believes in “equality”, “tolerance” and moral/cultural relativism. It was the ideology intentionally designed by Western Marxists in the Frankfurt School and then pushed to the forefront Western academia and quangos as part of the main Soviet psychological Warfare drive of the KGB during the Cold War, and has been so successful that verified KGB defectors have stated that their Cold War efforts were successful beyond their wildest dreams, so much so that the Soviets no longer needed to try to subvert the West, because in the West we had adopted “PC” Neo-Marxism so successfully that we have been successfully subverting ourselves without requiring outside input.

            Please go and educate yourself before calling others “idiotic”. I suggest this video from a known KGB defector in 1983, yet applicable to today more than ever:

            Yuri Bezmenov: Psychological Warfare Subversion &…: http://youtu.be/5gnpCqsXE8g

          • Terry Field

            Piffle. The people who caused this disaster were, initially, the soggy-heded aristocratic rulers of the Empire who firstly missed the ‘local colour’, and secondly rather liked the supply of compliant cheap staff who ‘knew their place’ and who also acted to suppress the economic power of the middle classes, a group hated by ‘the Labour’ prole hordes as well as the aristos.
            Yes a bunch of Putin types reported their ‘amazing success’ in destabilising, and they probably added to it, particularly in the days of Wilson and Callaghan in the seventies – a putrid periods of maladministration. In the words of Randy Mice – Davis, ‘they would, wouldn’t they!
            The Blair/Brown era was the subject of a new totalitarianism – the German Superstate called the EU.
            Those two were a plague from hell; poor England. The rest deserved what they got.
            For a period the degenerates in charge on both sides of the political divide were infatuated with Uncle Jo’s lunatic asylum, but you overstate the effect. Essentially, the cause of Britian’s islamic catastrophe is utter blood* incompetence by a series of utter joke so called – ‘governments’.
            In the face if this, the only rational thing to do is to leave.
            I did.
            The best decision of my life.

            Do enjoy Milliband next time.
            Then collapse.

            ps if you are correct then things are even more hopeless than I could imagine, and I bow to your deep wisdom; I do not, however, think that you are. Britain is just one gigantic screw-up.
            I will look at your references. Thank you for them. I no longer laugh at you.
            This is a very good magazine, and the free expression it allows is in contrast to thought-police rags like Statesman, Guardian, etc. It seems to like free expression; memories of times past, eh?

          • Wee Scitter

            You are correct that indeed the path to cultural degeneracy has not so much only been laid by classical-Marxist anti-capitalists, but also by the aristocratic and corporate classes putting their interests and those of multi-national big business ahead of the ordinary man and his nation. This was the point I was trying to make, as “left” vs “right” have been a distraction for some time both have been the same thing, sowing the seeds of our decline. As Benzmenov States in that video, KGB strategy was to take the enemy towards destructive extreme forms of the direction in which they were already heading, hinting at encouraging extreme forms of unnecessary consumerism and debt-inducing consumption across the West. Much of national decline is also due to more benign motives such as reducing the likelihood of nuclear war through promoting globalist politics and anti-nationalism.

            You are also correct that sheer incompetency is always a factor too, as well as useful idiocy, and I see that you hint at Germany as the choice for your location. While there indeed seems to be a better German financial and business competency, in terms of cultural decline/suicide, mass-immigration Germany does not look any better, if not worse. Especially so given the trendy “progressive” politics that seems to be entrenched there, along with a latent guilt complex from events a few decades ago that hinders their ability to reverse such cultural and national decline. I don’t see the same extent of guilt complex over Imperialism still lingering in the UK, and there are actually quite a few positive signs the the tides are actually starting to turn for Britannia as more and more people wake up.

          • Terry Field

            Looks like you have something, but the west chose to adopt pc equivalence, in part for commercial reasons. Either way, you have a strong point. How bloody depressing.

          • Cloud Strife

            Bravo!! Well said!

          • stupocalypse

            They both sell weapons and papers though…

          • Lydia Robinson

            Yes, indeed. The effete students who inhabit the alternative universe of far left groups, don’t have the bottle to actually tool themselves up and go into armed combat for their beliefs like the militant Islamists.

        • uberwest

          And teach them why it is right to despise the idiot cult. The intolerance, the draining, dragging effect it has on growth and development at all levels of human experience from personal to national. Explain to them that the Islamic State is genuine Islam, the way Moohammud intended, and that Europe could have fallen under its cursed spell several times over the past 1500 years after repeated attacks by the Moors and the Turks. The only reason they stopped trying to invade was because of Islam’s in built brakes on progress. We invented methods and machinery which enabled us to literally out gun them. Point out how pitifully dependent the Islamic State is on western invention, from weaponry to vehicles to web cams and foot wear; because of the stifling effect Islam has on invention and innovation.

        • Captain_Hook

          You don’t have to go as far as hate. Critical Thinking should be adequate to allow you to ignore the stupid stuff.

          • Ambientereal

            You “ignore” crime? you “ignore” violence? you “ignore” the problems that drugs bring? I´m afraid I can´t ignore them because they offend and they menace my family and me. I actually “hate” them and try to confront them with the weapons that law allows me

        • grumpy_old_ben

          Frightened of becoming a xenophobe? what nonsense. A xenophobe is someone who blinks in astonishment when someone shouts hatred in their face, and murmurs, “no, not really”.

          Recognise that people hate you because of what you represent, and wish you harm.

        • Cuki

          You shouldn’t merely teach your children to hate Islam, you should teach children to see through all the lies, fears, hatred and violence cultivated by all religions, and despise them equally. Teach your children empathy, kindness, fairness and critical thinking.

          Xenophobia is dumb, there are enlightened humanists and idiotic bigots in every country, so stop deluding yourself by judging people based on whereabouts they come from.

        • Zara Mikazuki

          Don’t just teach them to hate Islam – teach them why it is such a bad ideology. If you can explain the reasons it should be rejected, they will be less likely to accept it.

        • stupocalypse

          Islam is not an evil, neither are drugs. Of course, the way one uses such…

      • Tim Morrison

        You are one of the reasons I wanted independence. Your arguments that lump together all people of a particular faith and demand action against them leads inevitably to terrible conflict. To good Muslim people, the kind of people who are at home with freedom and came to the UK becuase they liked the country and thought they would have a better life I say ‘welcome’ If they are intimidiated by people like you and your hate speech, I say come North. Come to Scotland. We have depopulation – we need people – you will be very welcome.

        • Auntiemilibland

          And you are one of the reasons I was hoping you’d get it, of course the attempt to blow up one of your airports didn’t happen in the name of Islam, they were just ticked off with queuing, late departures and no direct flights to Saudi Arabia. There is a reason you have depopulation and thousands of your countrymen and women are down here!!

        • Damaris Tighe

          In your determination not to discriminate you’ve lost your discernment. If you fill your country with third world immigrants (being in denial that there’s any significant cultural difference between them & the native population) it will become a third world country with third world values. Scotland is not just a jurisdiction. It’s a culture, a society & a people (& I say this as a non-Scots).

          • Tim Morrison

            Part of our traditional/ indigenous culture is the cult of hospitality – welcoming the traveller and making them feel at home – the worst thing that can be done is violence between guest and host,
            The key point in my post is ‘at home with freedom’ – so people who support liberal values of decency, mutuality and respect are welcome. This means that many of the people who have commented here on Islam would not and should not be welcome.

          • Damaris Tighe

            I couldn’t agree with you more, & if you notice my post near the ‘newest’ point of the thread you’ll see I also apply this to muslim posters at the Spectator. I also agreed with one of your posts about welcoming the muslim neighbour. But you know, this principle of welcoming the stranger originates for us westerners in the OT!

            Your terminology of guest & host is spot on. I’m myself descended from immigrants & we still behaved a bit as ‘guests’ when I was a child.

            But the obligation to welcome the stranger, the ‘guest’ in our ‘house’, is matched by the obligation of the guest to behave as a guest & not make demands, but fit in. The problem with some recent ‘guests’ is that they have tried to re-arrange the furniture, & that naturally causes outrage. Also if we invite too many guests our house will change so much that we will no longer feel it is our home.

          • Tim Morrison

            Thank you very much for that comment. I saw that post about how Muslims who post here get treated and welcome the appeal for judicious language.

            I am worried that many of the posts are becoming increasingly inflammatory and feed into some of the worst stereotypes of Western arrogance and intolerance.

          • Damaris Tighe

            I think it’s always important to make a distinction between the ideology & the individual.

      • grumpy_old_ben

        Why do you say “inability to deal with this”? I’ve always taught my children that their grandfather fought and suffered, and ultimately died an early death to protect their rights under the law.

        Go to Rememberance Day, which the liberal Left so hate. Teach them the value of trial by a jury of twelve good men and true, which the current Blair-continuity administration are so keen to deprive us of. Read 1984 and Animal Farm. More than anything, set them an example of the rights we enjoy and must defend

      • liam

        In my opinion, progressive ideology should be at the forefront of thought in our country. Which is why we should fight Islam tooth and nail and stop bending over backwards to accommodate it.

      • Dan

        And sadly, you Brits have made most gun ownership illegal.
        You will soon reap the whirlwind.

      • Lydia Robinson

        Our own distorted relationship with Islam is also to blame. We invade their countries and kill them, while over here in our country, we pander to their every whim.

    • http://www.theoccidentalobserver.net/ StJohnofAustria

      Vote Liblabcon in 2015 and Great Britain will be a giant Rotherham , where medieval tribal goat headers abuse british children … The multicultural state religion is pathologically anti-indigenous . Where are the Statues and concerts for Lee Rigby?

      Vote UKIP to give human rights to british people !

    • FAKIA

      One would think the whole beheading and honor crime thing would make a dent.

  • Sean L

    “We raised him to be tolerant of all faiths” – what does that even mean, for a child: *to be tolerant of all faiths*? Is teaching them good manners and right from wrong not enough of a challenge that they have to be instructed in the highest principles of liberal doctrine? Otherwise good article. Peer pressure is massive for young boys. But this kind of liberalism in practice tends to nihilism. Leaving fertile ground for Islam or any ideology that can offer a sense of identity greater than one’s own puny adolescent self. Islam’s strength is its *intolerance*. Tolerance in itself is a negative value without some bounds, i.e. a basic intolerance: something to be *against*. But if tolerance in and of itself is the highest value, it stands to reason that the only thing left to be against is yourself.

    • Anthorny

      It may be wise for parents to raise their children to be “tolerant of all tolerant faiths”.

      As a nation we would do well not to tolerate the intolerant, in the same way that the Muslims abuse our National tolerance to further their intolerance.

      Is it possible to say “tolerance” any more times?

  • Anthorny

    Any child that begins this path must be shown that parallels with the fascist thinking of the Nazi regime and the efforts that our country and the allies made to defeat it. Hate-filled bile against homosexuals, Jews and those who believe something different is common with the Nazi ideology.

    To help, the parents should imagine their child in a swastika emblazoned outfit. This would encourage early action to remove them from such a dangerous path.

  • Mc

    “I’ve come to think that it is youth, not persecution or poverty, that these Islamic State groupies have in common, an embryonic sense of identity.”

    What they have in common is a brutal, infantile, absolutist view of the world. Something that’s often prevalent in youth, but not confined to them.

    • Bonkim

      Same with Hitler-youth.

      • I_of_Horus

        And just about every street gang/biker club. The urge to belong, to be accepted by peers is not to be underestimated. Add to that the added benefit of being given power over others.. a heady mix for a (young) disenfranchised man.

    • http://ifwhattheysayistrue.blogspot.co.uk/ Matthew Stevens

      As a young man who’s known a very similar story with a previously normal, well-adjusted white chap become a born-again convert, I think that this is absolutely right. However, there are further explanations to look for in our own society for why this phenomenon is becoming all too common

      I hate to say it, but I think there is some justification in feeling as though Western society is morally corrupt and decadent (especially when viewed through the conservative lens of a Middle-Eastern religion).

      Because quite simply, we are aren’t we?

      I mean there’s no two ways about it. Our lives revolve around weekends of alcohol, one-night-stands, violence, football and escapism (look at the photo album ‘Cardiff After Dark’ and tell me that isn’t what you see in more-or-less every British town and city on a Saturday night).

      The most popular ‘music videos’ have moved from being overtly sexual to downright pornographic. We embrace an absurd ‘celebrity culture’ and admire fame for the sake of fame coupled with a grotesque consumerist emphasis on gadgets, gizmos, toys and shiny things with a high price tag.

      And we work stupidly hard, often doing meaningless busywork that we don’t see the point of, cooped up in our office jobs all for the pleasure of enjoying the above on two out of the seven weekdays; chasing money and status all for a degree of acceptance within a society most of us tolerate grudgingly at best.

      Hell, you can’t even give to charity without making a stupid video of you throwing water over your head whilst showing off how great you look nearly-naked and how popular you are whilst you scream your head off.

      Western culture nowadays *is* shallow and I’m sorry, but for many people it doesn’t offer much more than a self-centred, narcissistic view on life that they find incredibly pointless and nihilistic.

      Its incredibly arrogant to look at Western culture as exclusively these vague concepts of ‘freedom’ and ‘democracy’, whilst ignoring all of the above, and then be somehow bewildered that many young men would opt
      for something they see as more real and profound.

      • Pootles

        I would agree with pretty much all of this, but argue that it is a result of a horrible nexus of mass-market, globalised capitalism combined with the sort of ‘right-on’ New Left culture that emerged in the 1960s and spread into key cultural bodies (media, schools, universities, ‘entertainment’). The opposition to this probably needs to take the form of conservatism (note small ‘c’), or even a form of traditionalism. But, actually, I don’t know.

      • NOYB12345

        Brilliantly thought-out and communicated post. Thank you for sharing.

        • http://ifwhattheysayistrue.blogspot.co.uk/ Matthew Stevens

          Thank you my friend. I tried to post it to a rather more liberal site asking the question of “What attracts young men to ISIS when they live in the land of lovely, tolerant, liberal Western values?”

          I gave them pretty much the answer above, an account of precisely how their vague ideals have actually manifested themselves as actual, tangible influences and behaviours in society; but they weren’t in any sort of mood for the truth and it was hastily censored.

          • NOYB12345

            Some on the left are just as brainwashed. Friends of mine will not read or listen to anything that doesn’t conform to their firmly-held beliefs. Remind you of anyone? K, have a good one, Mr. Stevens.

          • Tim Morrison

            Thing is it’s not just Islam. Look at the Christian right wing especially in parts of the US. Or some of the sects in the North of Scotland. Hatred and indecency is part of western society too. That It only allows it’s priests to wear funny clothes does not make it less dangerous.

          • Nick

            Errm….I don’t think beheading is that common in the Bible Belt or the North of Scotland. “Off yer heid” has a different meaning up there.

          • Tim Morrison

            Beheading is not favoured in most Islamic communities in Europe any more than most European Christians would favour the execution of gay men. Most of the people who ISIS harms are other Muslims. What is at issue here is not religion but fascism.

            Yet legislation to this effect is being promoted to this effect by Western Christian groups in parts of Africa. Arguments that lump all Christians and Muslims up together are at the very least lazy thinking. The Archbishop of Canterbury is not discredited in anyway by the activity of his coreligionists in Texas or Uganda.

          • SOMARA556

            I’m sorry but your argument seems to be based on a facetious moral equivalance between radical Islam and Western religious groups like fundamentalist Christians, comparing radical Islam to Christianity is comparing apples to oranges.

          • Tim Morrison

            Of course, apples and oranges can be compared. Both fruit and delicious in cooking.
            From my perspective there seems to be a lot in common between certain (but not all by any means) Muslims and Christians. In both sects claims to moral authority are based on ancient text that give moral guardians power to control other people’s lives.
            Admittedly most contemporary Christians are not so violent athough this could be because of lack of opportunity – American fundamentalist churches seem very happy to execute gay men in Africa. It is not so long since they were theocratic states in Italy that were governed by priests who stole children from Jews and persecuted infidels. Peace in the UK without christians slaughtering each is only a generation old.

          • SOMARA556

            Let me rephrase that then, comparing radical Islam to Western Christian fundamentalists is like comparing a paper cut to being disembowelled.My point is that clearly fundamentalist Islam and fundamentalist Christianity are not the same thing, they are not equivalent to each other. US Christians do not execute anyone in Africa or anywhere else, this argument that ‘fundamentalist Christians are as bad as fundamentalist Muslims’ in today’s world is a complete left wing fantasy.

            Trying to compare Italy in the past to the Islamic world is also ridiculous and religion was not at all a major factor (separate from national identity) in Northern Ireland, besides I don’t see what anything you alleged has to do with the problem of Islamic extremism.

            Honestly I have no idea what people like you are even trying to argue, drawing such false equivalences between radical Islam (or even Islam itself) and Christianity or Western civilisation is nothing but an attempt to muddy the waters and distract from the issue at hand.

          • Tim Morrison

            I am interested to know from you what non-extremist or rational Christianity is.

            My argument is this: religion is nasty and dangerous. Bad people use it to persuade good people to do bad things. Christianity and Islam have both been used by nasty people to underpin their nasty structures.

            Rationalism, evidence based thinking and healthy skepticsm tied in with humanistic values provide better ways of building a society that respects its individual members – even citizens who want to follow irrational beliefs,

          • SOMARA556

            ‘Non-extremist Christianity’ is the form of Christianity followed by the vast majority of Christians that is compatible with a secular society, tolerant of difference and accepting of criticism, it is the rejection of violence in the name of religion, it is the ignoring of the violent or intolerant verses, it is the separation of church and state.

            ‘Religion’ is not necessarily ‘nasty and dangerous’, ‘religion’ is a word like ‘sports’; an umbrella term. To suggest that Jainism (for example) is ‘the same’ as Islam is a complete fantasy.

            I agree fully with your last point, however I don’t understand how you see Christianity (with its acceptance of criticism and the separation of church and state) and Islam (that rejects man made law in favor of divine revelation) as being equal threats to a tolerant and secular society.

          • Tim Morrison

            Thank you for the definition – I asked tongue in cheek not expecting a reply and so have received a more helpful answer than I deserved.
            I wonder where this moderate Christianity might exist – perhaps only in the Quakers. I am sure that the Church of England House of Bishops might be surprised to find themselves extremists and will separate from the State forthwith; the UK is one of the very countries that has legislators appointed because of their religious office.
            Most Conservative Evangelicals would be suprised to know that the Bible is less important than man made law. Catholics might be surprised about it too.
            I agree with you about rejecting ‘violent or intolerant verses’ and wonder what generally agreed criteria across Christian denominations could be used.

          • SOMARA556

            That Christianity exists everywhere there are Christians, once again you attempt to make a comparison between Western Christianity and Islam, the UK is not a theocratic state and is nothing like any state where Islam has influence over politics. I genuinely don’t know what to tell you, you can’t seem to tell the difference between radical Islam and Western Christianity, between the benign practice of a generally tolerant religion and a 7th century ideology that stones women to death for the ‘crime’ of apostasy.

          • Tim Morrison

            Which Western Christianity do you mean? Are you talking about the Catholic Church, the Greek Orthodox or perhaps the Scottish Free Church? They do not agree with each other about basic definitions of what constitutes a Christian let alone about what texts constitute the Bible.
            I totally oppose believers of which ever book who would execute women for apostasy or hang men for being gay, deny abortions to women who have been raped or ban contraception.
            All believers can turn round and say, ‘it’s not us, it’s the other lot – they are the ones you mean’ and thats what makes this kind of argument rather slippery.

          • SOMARA556

            You are showing an amazing ability to completely miss the point. Western Christianity = any mainstream Christian sect; Catholic, Orthodox whatever. I can’t believe how muddled your thinking is on this, it’s as if you think that a case of the sniffles is the same as the Ebola virus because both are illnesses, again I genuinely don’t know A, what your argument is and B, how you think that all religions are equally problematic. Just look at the news, a countryman of yours was just murdered by religious fanatics in the Middle East, take a wild guess at which religion the people who did it belong to and try to imagine your Christian fundamentalist imaginary bogeymen in the West doing the same thing.

          • Tim Morrison

            There are Christians all over the world doing horrible things . Muslims too. These big monoliths that you talk about so easily have no basis outside rhetoric.

            If you want to look at divergence within Christianity look over at the debates on the workings of the Catholic church described in the current edition of this magazine – the doctrine advocated by Louise Mensch in such an honest way could not be more different than say Baptist ideas of grace and freewill.

            I am arguing against fundamentalist mindsets that look for simplistic solutions based on concepts like absolute truth or revelation. Bogeymen don’t exist. Christian, Hindu and Islamic fundamentalists do – all are prepared to do horrible things in the name of their Books and will go as far as the societies they live in will enable them to do. That Western European Christian fundamentalists are not so bad these days is because they are not allowed to be so by secular society that is well aware of the benefits of science, technology and free thought.

            Where it does have influence the Catholic Church is doing everthing it can to interfere with basic human rights like contraception and control of fertility and force their practices on people who do not share their beliefs.

            Sadly, some American evangelicals use their money and influence to do much evil. Men like Scott Lively do not personally behead their enemies but seem to support campaigns to have them hanged. His influence in the cultural wars is well documented. http://www.channel4.com/news/gay-rights-uganda-homosexuals-us-pastor-scott-lively

          • SOMARA556

            Your first point is obvious and nobody is denying it although you again draw an equivalence where none exists in reality.

            Your second point is a total non-sequitur that has nothing at all to do with this debate, your third point is again obvious except for the last part, Christianity has moderated hugely over the last centuries whereas Islam has not, try to imagine a mainstream Christian leader such as the Pope calling for murder or holy war in this day and age.

            Your fourth point is a total red herring that proves absolutely nothing. In your final point you have gone from ‘American evangelicals are executing people in Africa’ (in an earlier post) to ‘there’s an Pastor in America that seems to support the hanging of homosexuals in Africa’.

            I don’t know why it is that the left feels it needs to resort to this idiotic narrative of moral equivalence, maybe because of a fear of being seen as ‘singling out’ Islam or being ‘islamophobic’? I don’t know.

          • Tim Morrison

            I am no longer a Christian and do not think within a paradigm of faith. I am looking at faith from outside rather than from inside, and so yes I do not see some of the distinctions that you do.
            Class, power and capital seem better explanations of extremist phenomena than believers own claims to justification through claiming some kinds of eternal verity. Most of these religious phenomena are pretty ephemeral. Political islamisms are developments to do with the end of empire rather than ancient texts. Protestant ‘fundamentalism’ is perhaps 140 years old. I am not arguing for a moral equivalence but for judging deeds rather than clothes.
            Going back to your earlier post, something you said must be emphasised; ‘a countryman of yours was just murdered by religious fanatics in the Middle East’ – yes, he was my country man and I am proud of him, but not because of his place of birth but because he had the guts to put his life at risk in a non-violent way to try and bring hope in a desperate situation. – rather like the response of Jesus to the question, ‘who is my neighbour?’ – its not about race or doctrine but about the response to people in need. Anyone ‘who is at home with freedom’, to paraphrase Hamish Henderson, the war poet, is my countryman.

          • SOMARA556

            Ok this is clearly going nowhere. Just to pick up on one last thing that I missed in your previous reply to me. You claimed that ‘Scott Lively’s deeds are as bad as any of the people in the Islamic State’; I believe that comment proves my point and is, frankly, a phenomenally stupid thing to write.

            I don’t know what to say to somebody who sees an obscure US pastor who has neither killed nor threatened to kill anybody as equal to a fanatical terrorist organisation responsible for thousands of deaths, hundreds of rapes and the near destruction of two countries. Lastly I don’t know what I said to make you believe that I am ‘looking at faith from inside’ but I can assure you I am not.

            Anyways all the best and keep an eye out for those fundamentalist Jains and Christian terrorists.

          • Tim Morrison

            Google the man, look and see what he has done. Look at films of the training courses he runs. I stress the point, that we have had experience of Christian terrorists for years..Pastors leading parmaillitary armies and priests hiding weapons .. it is not even 20 years since we have had peace in the United Kingdom between people whose main dividing force has been their branch of Christianity. These people don’t disappear because they don’t fit in with your world view.

            That is 2 minutes in Google delivering material on Catholic Priests involved in terrorism in Britain- killing innocent men, women and children. They killed far more British citizens than any Islamic group has ever done. One IRA splinter group in one bombing killed a larger propotion of the Northern Irish population than was managed by the July bombers in New York. And guess where the IRA got its funding … http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/coffeehouse/2013/04/the-boston-bombings-should-make-us-real-ira-supporters-stop-and-think/ Yes, groups in the United States funded and gave support to terrorists in Britain who were waging war against the British State.

            Say its not equivalent, which kind of logic do you use? How do you say that what they did to us – and I like many people in Britain knew, admired and had some direct experience of being harmed by IRA terrorism – was better, more excusable, kinder than what ISIS is doing? If they failed it is not for want of trying. They even managed to bomb the British Prime Minister. And I a Socialist,
            thank God (who of course doesn’t exist) that by some strange fluke the
            bomb placed in her bathroom, funded by money put into collecting cans
            either in Boston or Libya did not kill her.

            Here are a few sources for you from across the UK political spectrum/

            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patrick_Ryan_%28Irish_priest%29

            http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2002/dec/22/northernireland

            http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=6&ved=0CE0QFjAF&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.scotsman.com%2Fnews%2Fscotland-s-own-ira-priest-who-escaped-justice-37-years-ago-1-809384&ei=u6AvVLrMA4L4apfjgcgM&usg=AFQjCNEL6jJ1y1XZNrA-aN5fP18MB6XsxQ&sig2=R-AMHG_fH0462CBJdmUElg&bvm=bv.76802529,d.d2s

            http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1305646/Claudy-bombing-priest-James-Chesney-Cover-agreed-police-ministers-Church.html

            Ian Paisley became a great advocate for peace eventually … but look at his activity beforehand

            So please, leave your glass house before you start throwing stones.

          • SOMARA556

            I give up, I really can’t believe how uninformed, misguided and nieve you are. The IRA were not ‘Christian terrorists’ the ‘main dividing force’ was not religion, religious identity just happened to overlap with ethnic identity and that’s what the NI conflict was; an ethno-nationalist conflict, I’m not saying that religion played absolutely no part in the conflict but to characterise the conflict as a ‘Christian conflict’ is profoundly ignorant.

            Again this obscure pastor you bang on about has killed no one and has not threatened to kill anyone, they have never attacked anyone, read up a bit on ISIS, Boko Haram, Al-Shebab or AQ and compare them to this homophobe and his followers, there is absolutely no comparison.

            You are imagining a non-existent threat from ‘Christian extremists’ to be as (or more) of a threat than actual factual radical islamist terrorists that kill thousands of people worldwide every year.

          • Damaris Tighe

            I think the key to Tim Morrison is that he says ‘I am no longer a Christian’. Just as converts to any religion can be the most fanatical, disillusioned ex-members of a religion can be just as blind & fanatical in the opposite direction.

          • SOMARA556

            Your first point is obvious and nobody is denying it although you again draw an equivalence where none exists in reality by suggesting that ‘they are just as bad as each other’.

            Your second point is a total non-sequitur that has nothing at all to do with this debate, your third point is again obvious except for the last part: Christianity has moderated hugely over the last centuries whereas Islam has not, try to imagine a mainstream Christian leader such as the Pope calling for murder or holy war in this day and age.

            Your fourth point is a total red herring that proves absolutely nothing. In your final point you have gone from ‘American evangelicals are executing people in Africa’ (in an earlier post) to ‘there’s an Pastor in America that seems to support the hanging of homosexuals in Africa’. For you to say that this wacko is the same and ‘just as bad’ as ISIS proves my point and is, frankly, mind-bogglingly stupid.

            I don’t know why it is that the left feels it needs to resort to this idiotic narrative of moral equivalence, maybe because of a fear of being seen as ‘singling out’ Islam or being ‘islamophobic’? I really don’t know.

          • Damaris Tighe

            This is very common in this country SOMARA – even with comments on a conservative mag such as this. That’s why we’re going down the plughole. You can’t fight Islamism with ‘a plague on all their houses’ liberalism. We need confidence in our own ‘house’. Otherwise, the door is left wide open for vicious intruders.

          • SOMARA556

            Well said, I don’t know if it’s because of a fear of being called ‘islamophobic’ or a desire to appear ‘balanced’ but it really is naueseating to see people trying to delude themselves into beliving that their local Christian prayer group are as much of a threat to the world as Al-Qaeda.

            Self-criticism in a society is a strength and we have this in abundance in the West, however some people go overboard into self-hatred and our enemies take advantage of this.

          • Damaris Tighe

            Exactly.

          • Pootles

            I don’t know which ‘sects’ you are referring to in the ‘North of Scotland’, but my experience of the ultra-Calvinist Free Presbyterian Church of Scotland (the Split Peas) is of interest. As a vaguely Christian (C of E, with an RC father) Englishman, I married the daughter of an FP minister in the 1980s. I wasn’t exactly welcomed with open arms, but I did go to an awful lot of FP services, visited FP homes, took ‘worship’ with them etc. To my mind, FP Calvinism was frequently baffling, combining close Biblical engagement with Western Isles tradition. However, despite the Calvinism and the insularity, I never, ever, not once, heard any FP, nor any FP minister or member, promote any sort of violence, nor any anti-democratic, nor illegal viewpoint. I cannot imagine anything further from the madness of Islamism.

          • Tim Morrison

            Hang around a bit and ask some questions – the FP and Free Kirk are my family too – and many would have no problem saying diseases like AIDS as being the wrath of God. Ask them about the role of women in society or how they feel about people using cars on Sundays or how they would respond to people with different sexual morality.

            I cannot imagine any of my cousins advocating violence but their sects are violent in how they treat others, divide families and effectively exile people from their communities.

          • Pootles

            Yes, that was my point – that despite the Calvinism and al the Bible-bashing, I never heard anyone promote violence etc. I know full well about the stuff about women’s hair, doing anything on Sundays, hostility to Roman Catholicism and most other forms of Christianity, but there is a major, important, difference between that and threatening, and carrying out, violence.
            As for ‘calling people names’ – when did I do that ? As for ‘meeting real Muslims’, yes, I have done and do. I used to live near Slough, and now I live in the West Midlands. We have a few more Muslims here than in Orkney.

          • Tim Morrison

            “I cannot imagine anything further from the madness of Islamism.” – looks like name calling and sweeping statements to me.

            My point was this – i have real experience of the harm caused by Christian extremists in the North of Scotland, my own community, – both to me personally and to others I have seen. The issues you menition as if in the passing are not trivial. Excommunicating women for cutting their hair is a terrible thing to do. Their hatred of gay men is tangible and breaking apart their own denominations. It splits families apart and drives people into exile.

            Incidentally, I have worked in many parts of the United Kingdom – most people with island heritages do – including in Slough and also the Midlands. So I have been privileged to work with people from a range of traditions and have them as friends.

          • Pootles

            What do you think ‘Islamism’ is then? Islamism is a violent, aggressive, totalitarian belief system that underpins all the actions of ISIL, for example. Do you think that’s ok? Do you think Sharia is a good idea, that it represents sanity?
            I didn’t mention issues ‘in passing’. I have experience of them too – did you notice that I said that I was an Englishman, vaguely C of E, with an RC father, when I came into contact with the FPs ? My point is that they are not violent, terroristic, anti-democratic and a threat to our society. I don’t agree with their Calvinism, but not one of them is going to cut my head off because of that.
            Well done for working with ‘people from a range of traditions’. So do I, and I also live with them. They’re my neighbours and colleagues, but it is still a different ball game here in England than it is in Scotland, never mind Orkney.

          • Tim Morrison

            ‘Islamicist’- a fascist ideology developed from Islam – got to be opposed. It is as far removed from most Muslims though as certain Zionist extremists are from the majority of Jews. Being Jewish does not necessitate support for the illegal settlements in the West Bank any more than being a Muslim means someone supports ISIS.

            The Scottish Islands are civilized places. I am not saying that the FPs cut off people’s heads, of course not, but children who stray outside the fold do get disowned. They will not behead you but do not kid yourself for one moment that you are anything but a second class citizen. You are damned to them, no matter how kind they are or the quality of the homebakes. If you think they present no threat to other people look what they will do to people who do not keep the Sabbath as they expect. People have lost their livelihoods and been driven out of communities. The best think my family did was leave the Western Isles. It doesn’t happen now in the way it used to but only because they have lost critical mass.

            Even they are not as bad as the Closed Brethren who even have different dining tables for the believers and unbelievers.
            Free Kirk extremists thought nothing of perjuring themselves a few years to attempt to destroy the reputations and livelihoods of their own family members – these people are my relations – as a result destroyed their own church.

            Sectarianism has devastated parts of Scotland for generations and it behoves me to fight extremists here – the real ones here weapons that are consistent with humanistic and rational based values. We have to tackle it wherever we are.

          • Pootles

            Tim, I know all this about Calvinism in Scotland. As I said at the start, I am an Englishman who married into a Western Isles Free Presbyterian family in the 1980s. My late father-in-law was a key FP minister from Skye. What is odd about your posts is that you are straining to find some equivalence between Scottish Calvinists and Islamists – that is just a bizzare thing to do. The Muslim community, which harbours a sizeable minority of Islamists, is a rapidly growing one, and is shot through with an aggressive, violent, supremacist ideology that is a present threat to us and many others (including other Muslims) around the world. The FPs and the Wee Frees are a tiny, shrinking community that is not a violent, anti-democratic threat. You do not find FGM, ‘honour’ killings, suicide bombers, polygamy, rickets in women who are covered up all the time, gang rapists of girls from other cultures, volunteers for insane beheading gangs in other countries and the desire to imitate a war lord, a torturer, a killer, and a polygamist as a suitable religious model, among the Calvinists of Scotland. This entire thread was started by an article focusing on a real threat, not the FPs, not the Wee Frees, not even the microscopically tiny commnity of Plymouth Brethern. Stop being silly.

          • Tim Morrison

            The equivalence is in the extremist mind set – the belief in the damnation of those who are of a different cult – once that is in place the rest is a matter of degree. Do you dispute what I am saying about how they handle dissent within their denominations or punish what they see as failure in community standards? They do real harm to real people. Your family may not have experienced that harm but members of mine have turned in against each other with the full endorsement of Jesus – so I attack the extremists who are near me and who I may be able to influence.

            In a more abstract way, I am as horrified by Catholics who forbid contraception or prophylaxis and are complicit in disease – who out of respect for the Magesterium cover up terrible crimes. Much of this is to do with how people who have religious or cultural power feel entitled to use it to enrich and sexually gratify themselves.

            These real problems – including the ones you are most concerned about – are dealt with in promoting evidence based reason and trying to resist false lures of all forms of fundamentalist religion through education and patient argument. Education, migration both ways, and economic development have destroyed the power of churches in Scotland to a huge extent and reduced the power of the sectarians.

            By extension then. part of dealing with fundamentalism is about dealing with economic deprivation – extremism is breeding amongst those who feel abandoned by capitalism for whatever reasons – be that poor whites in the US, churches in Uganda backed by American evangelicals or horrible schools in the UK funded by Saudi money.

          • Pootles

            Tim, this business about Calvinism in Scotland is quite clearly a very personal one for you, and I wish you all the best with your struggles. I can only say, on a personal note, that now my parents-in-law are buried, I often ask myself just what was all that about? (there’s no need to bore you with ‘that’). I’ve no love of the RC Church either – my late father was brought up (or, more accurately, beaten up by the terribly mis-named ‘Little Sisters of Mercy’, and the notorious Christian Brothers).
            But, in the here and now, we in the UK undoubtedly face a serious threat. Yes, it is a matter of degree – but at least one can walk away from the tiny FP or Free Church communities. And, none of them will cut off your head.

          • Tim Morrison

            The ‘that’ …

            Of course the pain is personal. As is the suffering caused to other innocent people in the name of a God or because of words in an ancient book. The suffering that your father received at the hands of those monsters is a horrible example.

            How we deal with the mindset that uses any religion to justify these terrible acts – the torture of children or the murder of journalists – is the issue that is conflicting our society and I think we start with what is happening in our own communities – the ones where we have influence.
            I can do nothing to affect people in Syria and iraq and they are unlikely to do anything to harm me or mine. However, I fear the people on these pages who are talking about burning mosques or sending Muslims home partly because I don’t know who they will turn on next.

            One of the dangers of our current press is that we only read and speak to people who are like ourselves – so I really value these comments that you have made on my posts – they sharpen thinking and I hope increase capacity between us for compassionate responses to the issues that are concerning us both.

          • Damaris Tighe

            ‘Emotional harm’ is what happens when people disagree with what other people think & do & express it vigorously. If you outlaw ’emotional harm’ you outlaw opinion. The result of trying to protect people from being upset is some of the restrictions on free speech we have today. However, emotional harm is not the same as physical harm & you make that distinction yourself. Your FP & Free Kirk friends may be harsh in their opinions, but there is clear blue water between them & many (not all, I accept) muslims.

          • Tim Morrison

            These people in the Free Kirk and FPs are my family not my friends – many of them would not want to associate themselves with me in anyway.

            I am not talking about outlawing their opinions, quite the opposite. I think they have the absolute right to express their beliefs and that is part of the reason I subscribe to international human rights legislation. That they are upsetting or irrational is not a problem as long as they are not engaging in harassment. If upsetting people was made a crime, most adolescents would not be allowed to speak to their parents.

            What I find almost amusing is kind of commentary that says that bigots only exist in Islam and that those inside Christianity are less dangerous. We have to be vigilant against all extremisms including our own if we want to preserve democracy,

          • Damaris Tighe

            Your post was spot-on. I also made the point about western decadence (arguing that Islam is stepping in as the counter-culture) here several times a few months ago, but even some Spectator readers couldn’t accept it!

            It’s amazing how even conservatives are in denial.

          • http://ifwhattheysayistrue.blogspot.co.uk/ Matthew Stevens

            Well I’m not a conservative or a believer in God so I certainly wouldn’t advocate blind traditionalism for the sake of it, nor religion because it might make people better behaved if they believed a falsehood, but I do nevertheless see the effects of what has been happening for the past 70-odd years culminating in the profoundly sick society we live in today.

            The lifestyle offered to a young man, even in a relatively free, wealthy, Western country such as this one, even if you have a reasonably decent job and money, does ultimately only culminate in a straightforward trade-off of enduring pain in order to maximise pleasures. That’s it. There’s no greater meaning any more.

            The rich, young investment banker who dusts off thousands on his holiday in Vegas and the not-so-bright lad making pennies on a zero-hours contract at Tesco before spending them on the anaesthetic of alcohol and quick sex on a Saturday night, are living precisely the same life cycle. One of endurance followed by escapism.

            Deep down, the meaninglessness of it all hits hard, and its almost laughable that so few people even have the imagination to realise that yes, some men, given the choice, would reject this offer.

          • Sean L

            Yes but this hedonism is itself predicated on a work-based culture, an economy, which represent tremendous individual and collective discipline. The obverse of your debauched caricature is the millions commuting every morning. The only conceivable “greater meaning” is religion, without which as Burke put it, society will crumble into the dust and powder of individuality. Otherwise people don’t get drunk because of meaninglessness but because they *can*. And if you think men don’t go drinking in Asia or Africa on account of some “greater meaning” you need to get out more. Whoring is rampant throughout, as it was here before welfarism took up the slack. In every place without state welfare sexual relations are traded as they were here in previous centuries, when you couldn’t go around a central London corner without getting propositioned. As Paul Theroux puts in his Dark Star Safari: “African cities recapitulate the sort of street life that has vanished form European cities . . . ” . It’s more that the weekend is an escape here because of the labour required during the week. Whereas in non-feminist, non-welfarist societies (they are two sides of the same coin) men don’t *need* to work to the same extent, women being more available. Again the sex and labour economies are symbiotic. There’s really no “greater meaning” beyond people’s basic material needs. All else is a rationalisation or gloss on them. Of course that’s what makes civilisation possible. But that’s explicable in terms of religion, high culture and the cultivated habits they promote, which set an aspirational example for the lower orders rather than some illusory “greater meaning” that young people yearn for. But that doesn’t preclude young people getting pissed and young men wanting to get their ends away. Anyway, the weekend stuff was far worse in the 70s when I was a kid, certainly the violence. It just wasn’t publicised so much, and for the good and sufficient reason that there was no media then comparable to today’s. Then it was just Elton John’s Saturday Night’s Alright (For Fighting) and the Skinhead and Suedehead paperbacks.. . as far as I can remember, when I wasn’t pissed.

          • I_of_Horus

            “Deep down, the meaninglessness of it all hits hard”
            Speak for yourself, I don’t think my life is meaningless, but perhaps that’s because I don’t drown my sorrows in liquor, have meaningless sex, post selfies showing my sculpted body to get ‘likes’ on FB etc etc
            You don’t have to submit yourself to rigid rules to refrain from the above behaviour, that would imply that you somehow feel the need to protect yourself from yourself as in “I’m not strong enough to resist the temptations of the Western world, so I am handing over the responsibility for that”.
            I have English as a second language and really wish I could express myself better, but I hope my point is clear.
            Thanks

          • Sean L

            You put it well. I’d like Matthew Stevens to show me a place where life *isn’t* some version of endurance followed by escapism. A place that isn’t a monastery or convent, that is. He might also ponder on why so many seek to escape here to our “meaninglessness” – are they perhaps fleeing from an excess of meaning?

          • Suzy61

            Seems you did a perfectly good job of it to me!

          • little islander

            Mr Stevens, yes, I agree. Not only do many of us lack the imagination as you say, we can also be downright insensitive to the plight of others.

          • Nicholas C

            That’s shocking. What parts of it were censored?

          • wayne

            I got censored on the Guardian for thanking Banksy for supporting the British people. the left are at war with us make no mistake and their allie is Islam

          • whs1954

            Comment is Censored, by any chance?

          • http://ifwhattheysayistrue.blogspot.co.uk/ Matthew Stevens

            No, a different site similar to this one, but I have no doubt there’d be a similar reaction on there too.

            More curious however is that any comment from one of the lunatics calling for ‘forced repatriation’ or making hysterically radical claims like ‘Britain will be a Muslim country by 2050’ was left on for all to see, in order to discredit any legitimate, moderately-expressed concerns about militant Islam as a potential issue.

            I used to play football with the son of the Muslim council of Britain at school. Genuinely a very nice lad, but one who I remember constantly saying that he couldn’t buy whatever brand of sweets or food because ‘they gave money to the Jews’; a prejudice that he almost certainly wouldn’t have had were it not for him being influenced by religion.

            I have another friend who grew up Muslim and ended up being disowned by his family and prevented from seeing his infant brother, aged only 18, because he so much as befriended gay people and people who drank alcohol at university.

            He’s a brown-skinned Pakistani and certainly not in any way alone, there are plenty of ex-Muslims out there who feel that the materialism and hedonism I’ve described *is* indeed, a worthwhile tradeoff for liberalism and tolerance. Or they simply lose their faith and ‘come out’ as an ex-Muslim.

            Those however, are the stories that you WILL NOT hear, as they’re incredibly hard to discredit as originating in bigotry or racism.

            A polite, eloquent critique of the religion, especially by a black or Asian person with a lived experience of it, needs to be silenced to protect the agenda. The idiotic rantings of the EDL however, will be put up on the likes CiF in neon lights, just to show that only the stupid people disagree.

            So, when I give people an account of what many Westerners (as we can see from the comments in response to my OP) see as positive things that Western society gives them, and point out that differences in culture and upbringing account for differences in what people VALUE in society, and that (shock, horror) some people might not hold things like ‘freedom’ or ‘democracy’ as valuable for their own sake in the same way Western liberals do and yes, wish for a society fundamentally different to yours, it shakes their ideology to the very core and of course, must be silenced.

      • Cymrugel

        “Western culture nowadays is shallow and I’m sorry, but for many people it doesn’t offer much more than a self-centred, narcissistic view on life that they find incredibly pointless and nihilistic”.

        I think you are wrong.

        Western culture allows people a lot of latitude. It has no interest in telling people how to live their sex lives, what religion to believe in, what personal lifestyle to adopt or whatever.

        It allows people to choose their own path in life as far as it does not affect or intrude into the lives of others. In return they are required to adhere to some reasonably common sense rules that allow people with widely varying attitudes and lifestyles to live peacefully in a shared society.

        The criticisms you make have some basis, but they are exaggerated. Yes there is consumerism, bad TV, silly or excessive behaviours and so on, but these are not the norm. I drink sometimes but do not spend my life in a drunken stupor; my son has a PS4, but does not spend every waking moment playing video games; we have credits cards but these are not maxed out ; my beautiful adult nephews and nieces are sexually active but this does not imply behaving like rutting animals without thought or feeling. The people around me are similar.

        You are presenting a caricature of the west – pulling out extreme example’s and arguing that these represent the norm. They do not.

        A lack of strict rules dictating all social interaction, correct views and correct behaviour will strike people who want to be relieved of the obligation to think as decadent. They want to be told what to do, think and believe. They want to be relieved of the need to behave as an adult ; with responsibility and restraint in favour of mindlessly following a set of rigid rules that would inevitably leave huge numbers of the population beyond the pale – the wrong sex, wrong sexuality, wrong religion, wrong culture. All backed up with brutal penalties to force conformity.

        These young men are not looking for something “real and profound” they are looking for a simple system that relieves them of the need to think and make choices; and that also gives them privileges based on the simple fact of being members of a self-selected elite group the only qualification for which is being male. Their moral behaviour consisting of dressing in a particular way; wearing a beard, saying set prayers at set times, demanding rigid conformity from those around them and dealing out violent punishment to backsliders.

        In return they can do largely as they please, treat outsiders like slaves, treat women like whores or drudges and hep themselves to whatever they please ; a gang mentality.

        They need this because they are too weak, immature and stupid to be able to control themselves like civilised human beings.

        I do not want to live in a society where we are told what to think and how to act. If I see a bottle of Scotch in front of me I do not need to drink it all until I am collapsing with alcohol poisoning; if I See food I do not need to stuff myself to bursting; if a pretty girl passes by I do not feel the urge to force myself on her; if I see someone whose political views, religious beliefs or sexuality I do not approve of I do not feel the urge to kill or persecute them.

        These young men need to mature and live like civilised human beings. If they cannot do so voluntarily they must face stern punishment or if necessary expulsion to lands where their bigotry is approved of.

        It is not up to the rest of us to send our society backwards into the dark ages to please them.

        • I_of_Horus

          “You are presenting a caricature of the west – pulling out extreme example’s and arguing that these represent the norm. They do not.”

          “These young men are not looking for something “real and profound” they are looking for a simple system that relieves them of the need to think and make choices; and that also gives them privileges based on the simple fact of being members of a self-selected elite group the only qualification for which is being male.”

          Well written. Better put than I could have. Sure, Matthew Stevens has a point that there are parts of our culture that self-absorbed, decadent if you will, narcissistic etc. But in my opinion it is important that as long as people aren’t breaking the law and aren’t hurting others, they are free to either act out or restrain themselves.
          Restraint that is imposed curtails human liberty.

        • Suzy61

          I thank Matthew for his contribution but also I thank you for your retort. To my mind this is the manner in which we should respond to each other.

          To Matthew I would say that two wrongs do not make a right…to compare the worst of one culture against the worst of another does not give either legitimacy. We are different cultures and need to address what has gone wrong from within. Muslims will not tolerate our criticism of their traditions…and vice versa. However, it is a sign of our strength that we can at least see our faults, as demonstrated by the support for Matthew’s comments here.

          To you Cymrugel I would say that you have manged to sort the wheat from the chaff. “It is not for the rest of us to send our society backwards into the dark ages to please them”. Absolutely. Note the paragraph in the original article in which this lady was accused of being bad, lazy and irresponsible for not putting the needs of her menfolk before herself. Note the hatred and blame cast at the Jews. These views have no place in our society. We have moved on from this decrepit thinking. Our way of life may not be perfect but I can tolerate a drunken, vomiting fool (much as I wish him gone) much easier than a Koran-thumping misogynist.

          The bottom line is this – if Muslims do not care for our way of living, if they do not support our values of equality and freedom of speech, then they are living in a society not suited to them and rather than berate us they should find a more accommodating place to live. Vive le difference!

          • Linda Smith

            You miss the point. They are enjoined to spread Islam. We, the non_believers must submit. Hence the noisy demands not made by hindus or jews. Islam doesn’t make mean “peace”, it means submission/surrender.

        • SOMARA556

          Very well put, I always wonder at how people who curse Western culture, be they Islamists or the far Left, can’t see that Western culture is the only culture that allows them to simultaneously attack and benefit from its values and norms. It’s telling that none of these people would give up their lives in the West to actually move to an Islamic or Communist country and that even Islamists in the Islamic world want to move to the West.

          • Gabriele

            The problem is that a lot of people, also in this very thread, believes that western culture is all about christianity. At the opposite western culture began when we rejected religion as being foundational to society and we started to embrace positivism. When religion was still foundational here in the west, we called it the dark age.

      • Colonel Mustard

        “Our lives revolve around weekends of alcohol, one-night-stands, violence, football and escapism”

        Speak for yourself! Can’t stand football or the “culture” that goes with it.

      • Sarka

        I’m not convinced. I distrust this “We” voice of yours. You say “our lives revolve around weekends of alcohol, violence, football and escapism…” – to which I am inclined to retort, “Speak for yourself!”

        Problems of drunkenness and violence are neither new (there was plenty of it about in the Middle Ages! Or the 19th century), nor general. I have a socially quite wide range of friends and acquaintances both in my native country (Britain) and in my adopted country (Czecho), and while some may have had problems with drink, or wild episodes, and some are more interested in footie than I am (not hard), I see no evidence of general degeneracy…

        One of my employers, an Egyptology professor, who has spent a great deal of time in Egypt, makes a lot of fun of the characteristic Egyptian accusations that Westerners are superficial materialists. To this meme he replies that he does not think Westerners are more materialistic than Egyptians…they simply have more material things. They also have better education, more access to culture.

        I have no desire to defend all the social ills of Western societies, among other things because I am a Westerner, and it is a characteristic of Western society that it is hugely and openly self-critical…Possibly too much so these days – for while it is a good thing to be open to inspiration from and tolerance of other cultures, and to make self-critical efforts to see ourselves as others see us (which are BTW rarely reciprocated!), ostentatious self-abnegation is in my view a greater danger currently to all that is valuable in Western culture than just getting pissed on a Friday night. Why do you think that all those members of non-decayed cultures are so dead keen on coming and living in this sink of corruption?

        • little islander

          They are so “dead keen” because like Westerners they could have more material things too?

        • Damaris Tighe

          Money.

      • little islander

        Mr Stevens, a good post. You sound a little overwhelmed though.

      • Jim

        It’s our freedom and democracy that allows the young and the care-free to behave like that. That is most certainly not what we are ‘all’ doing though.

      • Bonkim

        Yes Matthew but that is the freedom we have – to do what we want as long as we don’t interfere with the rights of others to do what they want and don’t harm anyone by our actions.

        Islamic mindset is collective – that of a Universal brotherhood with all outside not worthy of existence. It is inevitable that followers of Islam will feel constrained and powerless in our system and either commit suicide or go on the rampage with intent to destroy our system.

        I hope they get rid of themselves in Syria or any other place to fulfil their life’s mission and don’t come back.

  • Kennybhoy

    Thank you for this. I cannot have been easy to write.

  • Damaris Tighe

    Claire, I appreciate your article but allow me to make some critical comments. You brought your son up to be ‘tolerant of all faiths but wary of … easy answers’. Now, that’s very nice & liberal. But the unformed mind starting out in life needs a positive framework, not a vacuum. You didn’t give your son a positive western identity he could hold on to, but an absence, an emptiness. Into that vacuum an alien nonsense could – & did – rush in.

    Being ‘wary of easy answers’ is a place a mature adult arrives at after years of disillusion! It’s not a viable starting point in life, as you’ve found out.

    • Bonkim

      Is having stepsons the problem? you are never in control. Has this lady brought this problem on herself?

      • Damaris Tighe

        We don’t know the family dynamics do we? But as step families are now very common it adds to the vulnerability of angry teenagers.

        • Bonkim

          Yes – people bring their own problems by acting unwisely, have to pay the price.

        • eclair

          Teenagers rebel, girls and boys, even to the point of self destruction. Unfortunately the old adage of ‘growing out of it’ tends to be all too true. The more you fight it, however, subtly, kindly, harshly or liberally, the more youngsters seek identity, not yours. Does no one remember the farce of Guru Maharaji and the ashrams? It is to my mind, for some kids, a solution boxed and ready to go. What we can do about it I have no idea when it comes to discussion about this with kids. Its a catch 22 situation.

          • wayne

            It’s not rocket science you give the child an outlet in sport, Music or whatever they fancy that’s safe and decent.

          • eclair

            If only it were that simple…….

      • RobertC

        Whether she has or not, she has certainly fought, and is still fighting, the Good Fight, unaware that the Good News is on her side!

        One could could say it’s a miracle!

        • Bonkim

          I would kick this ungrateful lout out. Good News defeats Islam – tomorrow’s headlines I suppose.

      • ADW

        Invalid statement – millions of stepchildren have no issues. If it is a causal factor, it is a minor one. As I said above, the greater problem is lack of rigorous thought processes that leads to unquestioning acceptance of ancient superstition.

        • Bonkim

          How rigorous is rigorous and your posts suggest book-knowledge and an inflated ego but little practical understanding of human behaviour.

          • ADW

            Nothing there to reply to. Inflated ego I’ll plead guilty to – but I doubt anyone bothers posting online unless they have an inflated ego to some extent. Rigorous is obvious to anyone who has studied science and had some understanding of nature. As to human behaviour, I have enough years to have enough experience of that. But unless you can make some actual critique there’s nothing I can respond to.

          • Bonkim

            How many step children have you surveyed scientifically?

            Is this blog a forum for publishing scientific papers based on research and rigorous proofs of any conclusions and/or opinions? What level of accuracy do you specify for proof of evidence?

            ” Invalid statement – millions of stepchildren have no issues.” what is your evidence for such a broad statement and what is the basis of your statement “If it is a causal factor, it is a minor one.”

            How many years are ” enough to have enough experience of that (human behaviour)”, and are all human beings endowed with the level of faculty required to do that? What discipline of science do you profess to be an expert?

          • ADW

            This argument has the potential to be staggeringly dull, and isn’t much related to the subject of the blog, which is someone converting to Islam who also happens to be a stepson. Whatever issues step-children face, I would suggest there has to be something else involved before they would swallow the ten gallon BS that the individual described in the blog seems to have done.

    • Josh Christian

      Please enlighten us as to what we must force feed our children oh wise one.

      • Pootles

        He seems to suggest ‘a positive western identity’, which is a fairly broad, democratic, way of doing things. You could add into that democratic, parliamentary government; rule of law; constitutionalism; freedom of speech and assembly; the idea of public and private spheres (a la Isaiah Berlin) ; the history of one’s own country and people, its distinctiveness and achievements (as well as flaws); fairness, decency. All those sort of things, i.e., not having a religious leader like Mohammed.

        • Damaris Tighe

          I wasn’t precise enough Pootles. What I really had in mind was a traditional western spiritual path – CofE, Catholicism, Orthodoxy, Judaism – which he will be free to criticise & reject when he’s older. Meanwhile, these paths give him an established spiritual framework & identity & show him that if that’s what he wants, the western tradition can supply them.

          The problem is that our children (& their parents) now know nothing about this rich western spiritual tradition so when Islam comes along & offers them strict boundaries, regular prayer throughout the day etc, they think it’s novel.

          • Pootles

            Yes, I’d be happy with that. You’re right to note that ignorance of the ‘Western tradition’ (for want of a better phrase) is the norm. I’ve no idea how, for example, English Lit courses are taught at university now, given that very few students will be able to pick up on the Christian tropes that dominate English lit, especially prior to the 20th Century. I see that ‘Josh Christian’ hasn’t replied to my post.

          • Damaris Tighe

            C S Lewis’s volume in the Oxford History of English Lit (‘Poetry & Prose in the 16th Century’) did precisely this, but of course it’s now been replaced by something which I’m sure is more politically correct.

          • Fergus Pickering

            Students of English Literature cannot tell a Catholic from a Methodist. They have no idea who Bonnie Prince Charlie was or why he claimed the throne n behalf of his father.

          • Damaris Tighe

            A few months ago I was in an RE classroom. The posters on the wall told students that Catholicism is based on the Bible while Protestants are less Bible based! The teacher was obviously theologically illiterate but I assumed that s/he had been dragooned into the job for want of anyone else.

          • Fergus Pickering

            That is appalling. My children (at a grammar school) were taught RE by a quite excellent woman called Miss Priest. It can be done. Christianity was what she taught them about. She didn’t waste time on foreign cults.

          • Damaris Tighe

            Many people here are objecting to the idea of bringing children up in their own Christian tradition, but at least they would have answers for Muslim friends who see them as potential converts, rather than a great big yawning nothing. If a child wants to be religious surely it’s better for them to be Christian than Muslim.

          • Fergus Pickering

            Christians are right. Pagans are wrong. The Song of Rolande.

          • Tim Morrison

            I approve – why should your children appreciate the art, music or worldview of other backgrounds. They will not be bothered with the utter restraint of Zen gardens or the ecstatic realities of Sufi verse. Very practical. Quite excellent.

          • Fergus Pickering

            Lord, you don’t know much about children, do you?

          • Tim Morrison

            Praise be, indeed!

          • Sarka

            Here I largely agree. It’s not really a matter of having to be brought up in a religious tradition, but being brought up to know and understand the formative aspects of Western tradition, including the religious components, is important.

          • Damaris Tighe

            That’s what I meant Sarka, & I was waiting for you to get down to this second comment!

          • of_dragonflies

            So your solution is this: to avoid their indoctrination into one religion, indoctrinate them into another one?

            Are you kidding?

          • Damaris Tighe

            When one tradition is infinitely more benevolent than the alternative, yes. Don’t throw the baby out with the bathwater.

          • http://ifwhattheysayistrue.blogspot.co.uk/ Matthew Stevens

            Disagree completely on this one I’m afraid.

            Having faith; that is to say, holding a belief without empirical evidence, as one does if they are religious, only sets a cognitive precedence that one’s beliefs neither need to connect with reality or be challenged by those around you.

            Most atheists I know are atheists because they know that the claims made in the Bible are a load of old nonsense and that the Qu’ran is more-or-less the same story.

            Once you make the leap to being willing to believe (however you want to dress it up) that the world is essentially under the control of an invisible man living in the sky, it doesn’t take a great deal to change your beliefs about his character and what he in fact commands you to do.

            If you only hold religious claims about the nature of the universe to the same standard as any other, you’ll naturally make any supernatural claims featured in any religion look as laughable as they ought to.

            I personally feel is a big step is in pop culture and comedy in particular. The fact that comedians go after the utterly, non-controversial, non-rebellious mockery of the Catholic church but wouldn’t dare touch Islam is nothing short of enraging, although unfortunately a lot of networks have said to entertainers and writers that they simply won’t broadcast anything likely to cause offense that may lead to them being under threat.

          • ADW

            You cannot exist wholly in an intellectual vacuum, unless you’re on benefits street or write for the Guardian. Everyone has some sort of framework. You can choose one based on some ancient writings when the world was far less complex and we had far less knowledge, or you can look to objective achievements in the field of science (you are using a computer, after all) and start assessing things using the same thought process and reasoning framework that created all of the technology we now enjoy. So, when looking for the origins of the universe, you can read Carl Sagan and Stephen Hawking, for eg, and when wanting to understand how the world actually works you can try reading Sagan, Richard Feynman, Higgs, etc.

            For ethics, again, you can take what’s been said centuries ago or you can look at modern values such as equality and respect for women and minorities, and if you want some empirical validation you can compare life in tolerant Western societies with intolerant societies past and present.

            Or you could bleat away with some cultural relativism, if that’s your game.

          • whs1954

            Balls to your cultural relativism. The Judeo-Christian moral framework is an infinitely superior thing to the Islamic death cult. If a touch of the first is needed to ward away the second, then a touch of the first has a lot going for it.

            If you want to play Dawkins, equating and rejecting them both, at least view one as Jenner’s cowpox and the other as smallpox.

          • Gabriele

            There’s little difference between believing in God or believing in Allah, and little difference between using the Bible as a source of knowledge or using the Quran. Belief in Christianity wouldn’t ward a kid against radicalism, at the opposite it might enable it because he is more exposed to indoctrination.

          • whs1954

            What a nonsense world you must live in. Christianity is a bit soggy. a bit non-prescriptive. I myself come from a Congregationalist family – each chapel basically sets its own agenda, for those who want a recent example the Congregationalist Federation sent out a circular to all its churches saying on gay marriage each chapel must decide for itself whether to accept it or not. And I, for what its worth, was never taken to chapel on Sundays – it was always something left for the family.

            This is a world away from British Islam where set laws are laid down, and even that is a world away from teenage converts in their bedrooms, going once a week (no doubt let out of school early, as Muslims were at my own school in the late 90s) to go off to the mosque they choose, to hear lecturers, masquerading as men of religion, fill them full of messages of hate.

            You need to grow up and stop treating British Islam as just the same as Christianity in Britain. The latter is a mature church, with men prepared to preach love and tolerance and, if anything, too prepared to go too far the other way in teaching love for one’s enemies.

            Islamic preachers do not preach love of enemies but instead the doctrine of wiping out or subordinating the kuffir, and the sooner you knock your naivety about Islam out of your head the better. The two are worlds apart and your attempt at equivalence is both absurd and loathsome.

          • whs1954

            I may not have made myself clear in the above: just to say, there is a world of difference between believing in God or believing in Allah.

          • Damaris Tighe

            Very well put!

    • John Cronin

      Precisely; “we raised him to be tolerant of all faiths” – well that was your first mistake. You should have bought him a copy of “The Sword of the Prophet” by Serge Trifcovic. Get it on Amazon. Read it. Then read it again. Then read it a third time. Then buy ten copies for your friends, and tell them to buy ten copies for their friends. Then read anything by Robert Spencer. If you are not an islamophobe, you are not paying attention.

      • Mike

        And don’t forget to you tube Pamela Geller & Brigitte Gabriel, Pat Condell, Gert Willders in addition to Robert Spencer.

        • Kevinr

          Agreed, and don’t forget your heritage. This country was founded on a shared Judeo-Christian heritage and the teachings of Jesus Christ, there you will find purpose and acceptance enough, and a challenge to redeem this world for good, and not to destroy it out of hate.

          • John Cronin

            Google in Charlene Downes, Blackpool.
            As regards your stepson, throw the ungrateful b*stard into the street and have Allah look after him.

        • Omar

          Andrew McCarthy and Andrew Bostom are also quite good. For a solid round up of ROP news, I also make a daily stop at “thereligionofpeace.”

      • I_of_Horus

        Wow.. don’t you think that perhaps those people and the ones mentioned by Mike (‘Pamela Geller & Brigitte Gabriel, Pat Condell, Gert Willders (sic)’) give a slanted view of the current state of Islam?
        I’m sure there are Muslim writers who, when writing about Christianity, emphasise the Crusades, the Inquisition, the ‘troubles’ in Northern Ireland. I doubt you’ll agree that they paint a good picture of Christianity. Not that they are spreading falsehoods, it’s just slanted.

        • Udith Fonseka

          Okay then,for a ”unslanted view–check out Sam Harris ——–at TED talks.

    • Sarka

      How on earth do you know, dear Damaris, whether or not she gave her stepson a “positive Western identity”?

      We don’t know from the account whether the boy’s father is Western or not….When both your parents are ordinary more or less “indigenous”British (like mine) they may instil some good values in you (I think mine did), but aren’t really thinking in terms of giving you a “positive Western identity”!

    • ADW

      Exactly. You can’t ‘tolerate’ everything. You should assess ideas as they are presented according to their ethical beliefs and their scientific underpinning. Where found wanting those beliefs should be modified or abandoned. Had you taught your stepson that, he would immediately have started questioning the failure to treat women equally, and the fact that this revealed truth strangely appeared in one part of the globe a few billion years into the world’s existence but was denied everyone else ever since, bizarrely.

    • http://www.youtube.com/MillennialWoes Millennial Woes

      Fantastic comment.

      • Damaris Tighe

        Thank you.

    • http://www.youtube.com/MillennialWoes Millennial Woes

      I have made a video response to your comment, Damaris: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ohUfNGkg4eU

      • Damaris Tighe

        Wow, MW, I’m honoured that you considered my comment worthy of a video response. I think the points you make are excellent & very well put. I especially liked your comment that teaching Christianity gives children a link with the ancients. Vertical links (roots) are so important but today priority is given to horizontal links (relationships). I recommend this short video to everyone.

        I have to say I think we’re fighting a losing battle. I’ve made similar comments before & they attract a lot of flack when I explicitly bring Christianity into it, even in a conservative magazine. I suspect the general prejudice against Christianity far outstrips ‘Islamophobia’.

        I lol’d when you lit up & joined you in one!

  • Lawrence in Arabia

    “though you may tolerate Islam, Islam may not tolerate you” – perhaps enough liberals may learn that before its too late, but things don’t look hopeful

    • David Prentice

      As they’re being marched off to the Islamic gulag to await “processing”, it’ll still all be Thatcher’s fault.

  • ajcb

    Two points: I agree with the writer’s characterisation of this sort of Islam as “totalitarian,” the subordination of the individual into the group is straight out of the North Korean memoir I’m reading.

    Second (and with the disclaimer that I am generally a defender of the Judeo-Christian ethic), my brother had the exact same experience with evangelical Christianity. It grabbed hold of him in early post-adolescence when his sense of himself was unformed; it gave him an instant social circle and world-view (and new hatreds, for instance against Catholics, with whom he had had zero contact); it erased a recent open-minded past in which my brother had laughed along with everyone at The Life of Brian satire; it filled him with smug certainty that belied his then-meagre life experience. He has mellowed over the years (decades) since, though he does not look upon his faith as a mistake.

    • Damaris Tighe

      Your words ‘zero contact’ are spot on here. 21st century native British children usually have zero contact with their native religious tradition & are therefore ripe for exploitation by totalitarian creeds such as Islam or evangelical christian sects.

      • Bonkim

        Very subjective – who is to decide whether the native religions of Britain are any better or worse than Islam or evangelical Christian sects in providing certainty that young minds may crave for? Ultimately all religions are superstitions.

        If you look back in history Christianity was a radical faith at the beginning, practised by converts meeting in secret and suffered discrimination and persecution for centuries until it established itself in its political form in Rome and was spread often with force in the regions it exists today. The Popes were involved in wars and plots all through history, land was taken in the name of the Church and natives slaughtered mercilessly to release them from sin – kidnapping for ransom or political advantage no different to what ISIS is doing today.

        Islam copied the techniques available at the time it started. Violence and subjugation/enslavement of conquered people the norms of the time. Both Christianity and Islam spread on the back of military conquests and subjugation – Christian missionaries for example had free-reign in European colonies across the globe trying to civilize and Christianize darkest Africa and Asia, often by force or con-tricks.

        Liberal ideas, democracy and equality/tolerance are concepts that came about in the 20th century particularly following WW2 and the need to differentiate the self-defined democratic and liberal west from the nasty USSR/China Red-axis, neatly forgetting recent history. US Secretary of State Dulles had something to do with this global brain-washing proclaiming the US as the arbiter of freedom when blacks were being discriminated/lynched/exploited back home. Civil rights as we know today were established in the US – land of freedom and democracy only in the 1960s and still struggling. Much of today’s human rights and equality legislation in Britain/Europe have come into being in the last few decades still dysfunctional.

        The only problem with Islam and ISIS is that they are a few centuries/decades behind the rest, also in the mean time population explosion, cheap air travel, and fast communications have thrown people and cultures around creating social conflict-zones in previously stable societies – allowing assertive faiths like Islam to practise what they always did in their barbaric lands that we knew little about and cared even less.

        The old rules just do not apply in the present social and information mix. The only practical way out is to weed out those that don’t fit in ruthlessly and not worry too much about those that fail to adapt and change.

        • RobertC

          “allowing assertive faiths like Islam to practise what they always did in their barbaric lands”

          It isn’t their lands that are barbaric!

          There is also a difference between war to acquire wealth, power, strategically important land and trade, using armies, where diplomatic efforts have failed, and what we are seeing in Iraq, and in our cities!
          The former is horrible, but there is some method in its madness and many, if not most, individuals strove to be honourable, while the latter is Civil War on an industrial scale, without any discipline, any logic, as shown by the heading in Woolwich, done instantly without any reason, picking out one from a crowd.
          The beheading of prisoners and using rape as a weapon of war, as a matter of policy, shows how inhuman these perpetrators are. Even though these may have happened in Europe in the past, they have been taboo for most of European History, especially when done indiscriminately as has been done for 1400 years by the religion of peace.

          • Bonkim

            Check the history of the Crusades – not just the battles against the Muslims in the Holy Land but their rampage through Christian lands on the way killing, raping and plundering all the way and sacking Byzanteum on the return journey. Barbarity is not restricted to history or particular religions. This continues to day only our media restricts reporting to a limited number of locations. The carnage in the Central African Republic, Nigeria, Sri Lanka, Burma, philipines, or Rwanda and also other African/Asian locations were/are more horrific and on a much larger scale than the events in Syria/Iraq involving ISIS.

          • RobertC

            We are talking about what is acceptable by those in charge, not what happens. We shouldn’t judge the NHS by the behaviour of Harold Shipman, but by what is encouraged by those at the top, or should be encouraged by those at the top!

        • Damaris Tighe

          You are part of the problem.

        • Guest

          Interesting explanation. It’s like ancient barbarians have emerged from a time machine into our civilization.

          • Bonkim

            Barbarians were rampaging across the globe in the 20th century – so ancient is not all that long back.

        • Sean L

          Yes but it’s not a Platonic argument about what form it might take in different conditions. It’s entirely empirical, the here and now. After all we were beheading Christians in the name of God right here not so long back. Who’s ever denied it? I was taught it at school.

          • Bonkim

            Not many decades back in living memory the world was a dangerous place for minorities – ISIS thugs are amateurs by comparison.

          • I_of_Horus

            I wouldn’t call them amateurs, seeing how masterfully they have high-jacked social media with their well-publicised, gruesome beheadings.
            See what I did there? It’s called framing, something at which our own media and politicians have become very adapt.
            After all, when is a beheading not gruesome? And what’s with the word high-jacking? Why not the more neutral verb ‘to use’?

          • Bonkim

            ISIS appear to be achieving their aims both in military terms and publicity through social media attracting others to join. Yes they are not amateurs.

          • Sean L

            You must mean Nazism, an atheist creed; but I don’t understand how the *world* could be unsafe for minorities, because the concept of “minority” presupposes a specific population in which one group preponderates. But yeah there are affinities between Nazis and Isisi, notwithstanding the latter’s atheism: hatred of Jews for one.

          • Bonkim

            Not just the Nazis – look back history in all continents and the numbers eliminated from various ethnic, sectarian and nationalistic conflicts. Some continue today but not in the news in the West.

      • Kennybhoy

        Mair likely to sink into hedonistic materialism…

  • Bonkim

    If I had a son like that I would kick him out of the house. He is 16 after all. My children were not allowed to have friends at home except under strict supervision. May be the Author was over-indulgent and did not take action at the beginning of this downhill story. I would also not put up with my son not following orders.

    • David Prentice

      Jawohl, herr Bonkers!

      • Bonkim

        Don’t be a parent unless you know how to manage your children.

        • RobertC

          I don’t think anyone knows that before they are a parent, but being able to manage your own life would be a start! That is always the hardest life to manage.

          Just love them, make them part of your life and you will be part of their life.

  • sarah_13

    You are right it is young men wanting to be “important”. The only up side for you is at least you stopped him before he did something he could not come back from. The danger is the ideology makes no attempt at preventing the inevitable small step to acts of violence justified by the hatred. Once they make that step there is no turning back.

    • RobertC

      “young men wanting to be ‘important'”

      And we all know that it is the girls who are important, and get the goodies and free hand outs.

      • NOYB12345

        Are you bitter against women? I know a good religion for you.

        • RobertC

          No, but a lot of young men, especially the ‘non-academic’, need some sort of leadership, which is lacking. It’s a pity because everyone, including women, suffer.

  • Rik

    “hating anything except Muslim men” Well be fair he had good teachers then who taught him exactly what Islam espouses
    Islam the religion of Hate

  • Teacher

    Liberal parenting which allows unformed, ignorant, hormone fuelled youths who have contributed precisely nothing to their parents and society in general an equal say in debate is much to blame in this situation. Children need to be given firm boundaries and to be subject to disclipline by their families and schools and they should also be taught to be grateful and to whom they should owe their gratitude and loyalty. These elements are totally lacking in today’s child rearing and education. The results are malignant and legion, not least in this example. It is too late in this young man’s case to start laying down the law but we ought to devise a system of child rearing which is kindly but which circumvents the option for children to spurn the families and societies which nurture them. It can’t be impossible to raise free, rational and thankful children.

    • Kennybhoy

      “..we ought to devise a system of child rearing which is kindly but which circumvents the option for children to spurn the families and societies which nurture them.”

      A rather totalitarian notion…

      “It can’t be impossible to raise free, rational and thankful children.”

      Indeed, but if they are to “free” in any meaningful sense of the word then your penultimate sentence is totalitarian nonsense.

      • Teacher

        Yes, I was being somewhat facetious. But only somewhat. Children are not adults. They are not as rational as adults(I know that doesn’t say a lot before you point it out), they are governed by impulses and emotions, they have no real experience to temper their views and, being consumers of others’ contributions rather than being contributers themselves, they have no notion of how responsibility totally changes ones opinions and feelings about issues. Blowing out the candles on the birthday cake is not the same as having to provide the cake and induces a different mindset. Children are also trusting as they have often not learned that others are not always benign. Such a state of innocence requires, in my view, both protection and a more firmly stated set of values and standards than liberal parenting currently provides.

        Look at the example we were given: – the son turns up in fundamentalist Islamic guise and the parents say, ‘That’s nice.’ I would suggest that there is something wrong there, especially as the child was still fairly young. I think it makes a case for being a tad totalitarian for a while for the sake of the child, the parents and society.

    • Alexandrovich

      “It is too late in this young man’s case to start laying down the law but
      we ought to devise a system of child rearing which is kindly but which
      circumvents the option for children to spurn the families and societies
      which nurture them.”
      Stop intellectualising something that should be instinctive and straightforward:
      ‘If I hear you talk to your Mother like that again I’ll knock you into the middle of next week.’
      And, for the good of the kid but against the Mother’s wishes, carry it out.

  • Des Demona

    Unfortunately they are like the Moonies but with machine guns. Hopefully it is just a teenage rebellion and your son will grow out of it. Do try to keep him away from the propagandists though. It is difficult I know, because they are in a lot of schools and colleges never mind the internet. My own stepson almost fell prey to them at the age of 14 similarly to your experience. It was tolerated to begin with but when it got to the stage he was he was coming out with utter bollx his mother kicked his backside and sent him to his grandparents in rural France for six weeks. That cured him.

  • lookout

    You reap what you sow, political correctness gets children totally confused, never mind adults, it opens the mind to everything and when they become teenagers they have no anchors in life to hold them steady, alien influences can wreak anybody but some kids are wide open to foolishness despite being brought up correctly, believe me I know.

  • gram64

    The problem is the extremist, intolerant, Wahabi version of Islam, which originated in Saudi Arabia in the 18th century, which dominates that country, and which has been exported by it around the world, over the last 5 decades, via at least £70 billion’s worth of propaganda publications, videos, t.v and radio shows, websites etc, not to mention the radical Saudi imams exported round the world. Add to that the Jihadi propaganda sites, and we have the situation that the moderate Sufi message of Islam has been overwhelmed.

    In WWII both Britain and America waged extremely effective covert propaganda operations agains the Japs and the Nazis. It would be handy if we could recover that knack. Certainly no sign that we have receovered it thus far into the worldwide battle against extremist Islam.

    • Damaris Tighe

      Yes, Sufism seems far less toxic & was the muslim tradition of the original immigrants from Pakistan, I believe. These elderly immigrants seem to be as shocked as anyone at the way their grandchildren have turned out.

      • RobertC

        But it is all in the koran, so I don’t understand why muslim parents are so shocked when it happens.

        • sarah_13

          I think because many don’t actually know what is written in the koran and others just learn to repeat it without actually thinking about it. The problem i think lies in the fact that it is supposed to be the literal word of god. If it’s perfection then every sura that states killing non believers is ok is perfect! Until there is the equivalent of the reformation in Islam then islam is hostage to 7th century interpretation.

          • Damaris Tighe

            Exactly Sarah. I’d only add that they’re taught the Koran in Arabic which is not their language. They therefore repeat sounds without knowing their meaning. I guess the meaning is given to them by imams. It’s a bit like pre-Reformation Christianity where people hadn’t a clue what the Bible said because it was only written in Latin. Thus the clerical classes mediated its meaning to the public.

        • Kennybhoy

          This is utter caca. One could say the same about the Judeo-Christian scriptures. In fact athiests frequently do.

          • RobertC

            It is in the koran, so it isn’t caca, and if it was true about atheists, it is still in the koran!

            The Judeo-Christian scriptures do not instruct people to kill others on a whim, though they do report on the wars and ‘disagreements’ that happened.

      • Kennybhoy

        Aye. It can be quite heartbreaking to see…

    • Andrew Morton

      “The problem is the extremist, intolerant, Wahabi version of Islam, which
      originated in Saudi Arabia in the 18th century, which dominates that
      country, and which has been exported by it around the world, over the
      last 5 decades, via at least £70 billion’s worth of propaganda
      publications, videos, t.v and radio shows, websites etc, not to mention
      the radical Saudi imams exported round the world.”

      The problem is the extremist and intolerant Wahabi version of Islam. Originating in the 18th century, it is now the dominant religion in Saudi Arabia. (B.)

      For the past 5 decades it has been vigorously exported worldwide by means of media and imams with the financial backing of at least £70 Billion.

      Footnote. (B) denotes breath. I had a dizzy spell reading your version aloud to my work colleagues. He who lives in a glass house…..

    • BonzoDog

      Exactly. The people who write the volumes and volumes of articles we read in the media appear to know b-all about this. And our policy makers seem to be getting all their information from those journalists. The popular pundits treat Islam as a single monolith. It is not that at all. As you correctly point out, Wahabi fanatics are the problem and Saudi Arabia is the problem. Our eminent journalists are ignorant of the history of this thing. There are two famous sayings about history. One is Henry Ford’s “History is bunk” and the other is Edmund Burke’s “Those who don’t know history are doomed to repeat it. Our journos are as ignorant as Henry Ford.

  • NOYB12345

    Good article. We need to warn our children against all religious conversion from an early age.

  • David Prentice

    Remaining blissfully unpricked by the thorns of reason comes at a price – crowds of howling halfwits, synthetically manufactured hatred and endless violence – but Islam has happily paid it and transmitted itself, unreformed, down the ages and into our own happy time. Indeed, one of its great strengths has been to encourage ever greater hatred, violence and howling halfwittery in the elusive search for its earliest, “purest” form.

  • Pootles

    It strikes me that given that it appears that the young man has fallen among Islamist loons of the first order, it might be an idea to consider his, and his family’s, safety if the writer and her husband succeed in drawing him away from the rag heads. Perhaps moving to a new area?

    • David Prentice

      Where can you go to escape them? They’re even committing blood-curdling atrocities in China.

      • Pootles

        There’s plenty of corners of England left. Happily, I live in one, although not if I go to my nearest city. As for China, I suspect the Islamists have bitten off far more than they can chew there.

  • http://www.pearshapedcomedy.com Anthony Miller

    Nice sentiments but article reads like it was wriiten by a spook…. Or a shill …why does the author want to hide their identity?

    • Damaris Tighe

      I would have thought that’s obvious – she’s talking about her teenage son who has a right to anonymity.

      • http://www.pearshapedcomedy.com Anthony Miller

        If he’s “unemployed” he’s a grown up Isnt he? Although they’re all made to pretend to be kids so the school system can hang onto them till 18 now. Funny how as the school leaving age goes up the voting age goes down. But anyway he’s an adult, isnt he?

        • Damaris Tighe

          Even if he’s a young adult, he’s entitled to anonymity if his mother is writing about him.

    • NOYB12345

      I disagree. It sounded authentic. A piece written by an educated liberal woman capable of writing something honest, concise and convincing. As for the anonymity, she has much to fear from angry liberals who will see her message as intolerant and call her out as racist. And even more to fear from extremists who might see fit to behead her or her son.

    • Liz

      It sounds like it was written by Douglas Murray.

  • NOYB12345

    There are many ways a teen mind can be stolen. Radical religions are a concern but the rap and hip hop culture has also taken over many people’s children as well. Exhibit A: Justin Bieber.

    • Pootles

      Indeed, but the idiot Bieber does not advocate an anti-Semitic conspiracy theory of world history and politics, death by stoning for adulteresses, polygamy, misogyny, death to gays, taxes (death or conversion) for unbelievers, death for apostates, torture and mutilation for thieves, and beheading for those who cause ‘mischief’. Actually, in that light, Bieber seems perfectly acceptable.

      • NOYB12345

        I see him as a child given no direction. Left to be raised by wolves. Other than that, we’re on the same side here.

        • Pootles

          Indeed. We live in very strange times. Decline of the West? But, this time it looks real.

          • NOYB12345

            Some of the old standard parenting practices are outlawed and maybe that’s part of the problem. To tell your child, “son, date within our culture” is considered racist and intolerant now (unless you’re from one of those other cultures). I don’t know the answer, but I think pure political correctness within the home serves to mislead children. Perhaps we should talk about negative stereotypes and, sure, tell our kids where stereotypes are false, but also point out that sometimes it’s actually the truth that gives rise to stereotypes. Again, I don’t know the answer and we could talk all day. So off I go, and have a good one Mr/Ms Pootles.

      • Damaris Tighe

        The point is, if the teen rebels against Bieber & the whole celebrity culture where does s/he go? The big, successful & growing counter-culture today is Islam.

        • Pootles

          Indeed. That and the ‘gangsta’ culture.

    • Mike

      Pop star worship has been around for many decades and I’ve never ever seen or heard of any who advocate death to those who don’t like them unlike Islam. Even groupies many of whom went out looking to get laid by their idols, were for the most part not groomed, trafficked, plied with alcohol and gang raped. Islam is the only religion has that distinction of inspiring its followers to do that.

  • Sean L

    This recalls a phrase that stuck in my mind from Roger Scruton on the “rights of the intolerant to suppress what outrages them.” The context then, in the 80s, was pornography and obscenity. But that dictum is just as valid, if not more so, for the Muslims. The real issue is one of *allegiance*: that their ‘we’ isn’t ours; that the “communalism” that Powell warned of has come to pass. Of course that was in the 70s when he couldn’t have predicted the rise of radical Islam, though doubtless he had that faith in mind, given his Indian experience. But for him it was all about numbers: that given sufficient numbers separate political constituencies founded on race are bound to evolve, shared physical characteristics being such a potent source of group identity. In truth it’s religion more than race: it’s our *appeasement* that’s qualified racially.

    • Pootles

      I wonder if EP did forsee the rise of Islam? Not only was there his Indian experience, but by the 1970s western Soviet-watchers were identifying the demographic problem that was facing the USSR in its Muslim territories as being a future destabilising factor for the Soviets.

      • Sean L

        Yeah no doubt Islam is prmarily what he had in mind with his “communalism”. My point was with how more radical forms have come to prominence since.

        • BetrayedRosse

          These ‘more radical forms’ have only come to the fore as numbers have grown.

  • Mike

    “Some of you reading this might dismiss me as a bigot, prejudiced against a religion I do not understand”

    I think most here can feel your pain and fully understand how impressionable teenagers can be subverted by the religion of evil.

    I would make one minor change to your piece, “you may tolerate Islam, Islam might not tolerate you” should be replaced by “you may tolerate Islam, Islam will not tolerate you”.

    • Linda Smith

      Well Islam will tolerate you, if you are a christian or jew, but only as a dhimmi.

      • Damaris Tighe

        The ‘toleration’ of the protection racket.

        • Linda Smith

          And of course you can only practise your religion in a low key manner _ no bells, steeples or public display.

      • Mike

        Much the same as a protection racket run by the mafia but at least you can negotiate with them unlike Islam.

  • Kaine

    See, if I’d ever spoken to my mum the way he spoke to you she would have, quite rightly, belted me one.

  • jesseventura2

    A referendum on returning muslim immigrants to islamic hell holes would be a certain vote winner.

  • sarahsmith232

    Let in millions of people with zero education, illiterate, unable to integrate ’cause of such stark cultural differences and it is a written in stone certainty that they’ll separate themselves and seek out ways to justify their feelings of powerlessness and inferiority. Really neither here nor there what religious background their from, they’ll find some way of uniting around their hatred of their more powerful, richer, better educated ‘westerners’.
    – You see the same sort of stuff with the Latino’s in America. Black Americans are the same deal. They got militant, violent, forming mini armies to ‘fight the power’. Used to be, regular as clockwork, every Saturday down on Venice Beach you’d got a little gaggle of this sort. One stood on a little box – ‘Shoot ’em, they be killing our chilin’, they be raping our women, we can shoot ’em, arm yourselves brothers’ blah, blah, yada, yada, yada. I’d stand there, taking my life in my hands, watching them get them all riled up, opening calling for armed revolt against ‘the white’.
    – ‘Course, in America they actually have a free media, so these types are torn to shreds. They’re ridiculous berks and they’re made to feel it. So most can’t not be aware of how unjustifiable and ****ing stupid their thinking is. Here that’s illegal. So they wallow in their ignorance, coddled and encouraged by our idiot Left media. Start laughing at them, tear them apart using humour, T.May wants to further restrict our ability to speak freely to counter it, wrong thinking, what’s needed is the opposite, more freedoms.

    • Linda Smith

      Don’t be fooled by the idea that lack of education is the problem. The Glasgow airport jihadists were medical doctors. Universities have been a recruiting centre for years.

      • sarahsmith232

        My post is going to read like that, isn’t it? Actually, no, that’s not what I think. Just read about this. Apparently in the 40s a Abraham Maslow wrote about a ‘hierarchy of human motivation’. At it’s basic – food, clothing, shelter. Then – security and shelter. Then, belonging, self-esteem, ‘before reaching the pinnacle’ self-actualisation.
        – Suspect most on the Left should prob’ read it, they seem to have missed the part where we all by the end of the 1980s had all long since passed through most of the first few phases and were all now into most of our demands being identity, belonging and this ‘self-actualisation’ phases. I mean, check all these ISIS tweets – ‘yeah, we’ve got your Nutella, don’t worry about your split ends, you even get your Tresseme here brov”. These are all prats that have all also all long since passed through their basic needs phases and their motivations, their needs, their male ego’s search for significance are what’s driving them now.
        – Reason why this is a product of niave, irresponsible, open-door policies is ’cause their identities are too locked into being part of an immigrant group that lacks status. They don’t care about the basics, it’s a need for a better sense of belonging, being a doctor that’s fighting the imperialist white can deliver that for them.
        – So yes, it’s down to lax, idiot Left, open-door to any old illiterate Joe that’s driving this.

  • DrCaligari

    The author’s problem was that she and her husband did not reinforce atheism and secular humanism rigorously enough in their son, and teach him to have a healthy skepticism of and disdain for all religion, superstition, and belief systems based on non-evidential faith.

    • Linda Smith

      But young people like belonging to a group and have always been susceptible to being sucked into cults of all types that offer meaning,companionship,etc. Don’t forget Jones town for example and all the cults of the 70s.

    • The Laughing Cavalier

      The problem was not that but that she created a moral and spiritual vacuum for barbarism to fill.

      • Damaris Tighe

        Exactly.

  • Richard

    We all live within a society, and Britain is entirely vacuous and without guidance or direction for people looking for this. There are no strictures (apart from accepting that there shouldn’t be any strictures) and no laws that aren’t up for grabs. The country itself is now merely a geographical location, with no defining qualities (our “tolerance” is really nothing but passive weakness) or raison d’être. If you are a person of limited intelligence (forgive me) looking for a home in the true sense, Britain has nothing to offer. Islam has loads. Expect a lot more of the same.

    • Damaris Tighe

      Well put. It’s about boundaries & borders in every sense. Our society has very few. Islam has them but in all the wrong places. Nevertheless, in a culture with the absence of boundaries Islam constitutes the counter-culture.

      • Linda Smith

        It’s also about giving meaning to life. Very comforting to be given certainty that life has a meaning and there is a god. Atheism doesnt give this reassurance and I think modern educated young people would find it difficult to believe in christianity predicated on a man god,virgin birth and walking on the water.

  • The Blue Baron

    “”Some of you reading this might dismiss me as a bigot, prejudiced against a religion I do not understand.””

    Quite the contrary, I suspect you understand it better than most. Those who are genuinely prejudiced are those who pre-judge the faith and conclude that it is benign and problem-free in spite of mountains of evidence to the contrary.

  • http://ukip.com ukipifyouwantto

    this is interesting, but don’t forget for a young man born into a muslim family, he doesn’t really have the choice to define himself as muslim or not, or at least it’s a major step to reject his faith, and he’ll still be considered muslim by airport security.

  • Sean L

    Talking of censorship or ‘moderation’, it looks like reference to the former member for Wolverhampton is now verboten. I can’t otherwise think why my earlier post and its responses disappeared. But if there was another politician since that came anywhere close to diagnosing the “communalism”, of which the subject under discussion here is a symptom, with half the acuity of that MP back in the *60’s*, then perhaps one wouldn’t need to refer back to him. Perhaps his voicing it with such force then rendered the subject itself beyond public discussion since. In which case he unwittingly helped bring about what he warned against. But that doesn’t make it any less true. And since it’s now a reality rather than a mere prophecy, surely there’s even less justification for censorship today, other than on grounds of inflammatory language, and here of all places . . .

    • Damaris Tighe

      There was a complaint of censorship of the member for Wolverhamton’s name on the thread following Douglas’s latest article on IS. I & others have posted his name in comments in the recent past without problem. If this is now happening it’s shocking – turning him into an unmentionable non-person.

  • greggf

    “Claire Stevens is a pseudonym.”

    Well, that’s no surprise!
    And therein lies your answer…… and solution!

  • Tom M

    Will somebody explain to me (or preferably the Governement) how you cope with this lady’s son’s problem in our society. If we eradicate IS and all the rest of them completely the people that twisted this lady’s son’s mind will still be in Britian and still very capable of repeating the excercise the next time perhaps with more devastating results.

  • Common Sense ✟ كافر

    I knew years ago Islam would never tolerate me ever since Muslim neighbours on benefits moved in and have never said hi and just give me dirty looks. In fact I can apply that to the vast majority of Muslim I see walking about. They clearly do not integrate – just walk around London’s streets and see for yourself. They stick with their own, do no speak English, have endless children on welfare – and is simply a intolerant backward culture that does not integrate and costs us billions in tax.

    • Linda Smith

      They do not “integrate” with non believers because the Koran instructs them not to. One of the reasons Muslims persist in wearing their distinctive clothing, particularly bizarre in the British climate, is to reinforce their difference and separation from the rest of us.

      • Tim Morrison

        2 Corinthinans 6:14 – Do not be bound together with unbelievers; for what
        partnership have righteousness and lawlessness, or what fellowship has
        light with darkness? – St. Paul

        • Tim Morrison

          No wonder they don’t reply if you are judging them all the time. I wouldn’t want that from a neighbour.
          Did you try offering a cup of tea or saying welcome to the neighbourhood? Perhaps bringing around a pan of soup as they were moving in? – being neighbourly as opposed to expecting them to be telepathic?

    • Tim Morrison

      No wonder they don’t reply if you are judging them all the time. I wouldn’t want that from a neighbour – especially one who was being snooty about their source of income.
      Did you try offering a cup of tea or saying welcome to the neighbourhood? Perhaps bringing around a pan of soup as they were moving in? – being neighbourly as opposed to expecting them to be telepathic?

      • BetrayedRosse

        You sir, are an imbecilic troll.

        • Tim Morrison

          Name calling.

          • BetrayedRosse

            just stating a fact

  • Common Sense ✟ كافر

    If you taught your son to be proud of being English and its many achievements and incredible history your son would not now be walking about in muslim black robes hating everything non-muslim.

  • John Croston

    One good thing is that most converts abandon Islam within five years. With a friend of mine it took 15 years and 9/11 to make him come to his senses. After having watched in horror as innocent people fell to their deaths he found he just could not cope with the celebrations and gloating that went on down at the mosque.
    He despises Islam with a vengeance these days – and knows it inside out of course. He’s actually a mine of information and can spot Muslim propaganda (taqiyya) a mile off.

    • Damaris Tighe

      Was it an ‘ordinary’ mosque or a ‘radical’ one (serious question, not sarc)?

  • dave

    Execute him

  • John Croston

    Allah states in the Koran that he alone decides who will and who will not become a Muslim. He says that he “closes the ears” of those he has decided will not believe in him. Then when they die he sends them to hell to be tortured for all eternity…you guessed it…for not believing in him.
    Anyone considering converting to Islam should be made aware that Allah is quite insane.

  • stag

    Crazy stuff. It is really a cult, Claire. What you are describing has all the hallmarks of a cult.

  • John Carins

    A liberal atheist has nothing to believe in. The vacuum was filled

    • Michael Leschziner

      Vacuum? How about mathematics, physics, rational thinking, knowledge? Who needs “belief”? Belief (or any sost, especially religious) is for the ignorant, superstitious and the mentally deprived.

      • Sean L

        Religion isn’t principally about “belief” but *belonging*: the belief as such is merely a means of assimilation, of submerging one’s individual self into the group. It’s a total misconception to characterise religion as a matter of belief, as if it could be refuted intellectually and/or empirically. Even etymologically the word is tied to ligere, to bind together; and that’s the function of religion to bind people, the belief as such serving as a mere pretext, even if people would die for their faith as some would for their nation, even their football team.

      • John Carins

        Thank you for your comment. I agree with you. My comment was an attempted jibe at people with liberal views. You have read my comment literally; not your fault as it is rather open to interpretation.

  • hdb

    The author seems to be most annoyed by the way her stepsons conversion went with a conservative attitude to the place of women. It is amazing that feminism has become so taken for granted that such views should seem amazing.

    • Damaris Tighe

      An interesting point but what I picked up from that paragraph was the boy expected her to wait on them hand & foot in an appropriately subservient manner.

    • Liz

      It is pretty amazing that a male person with two hands should be wondering why a woman isn’t cooking his meals for him every night. How does somebody get to 16 years old and not know how to cook??

  • tzioneretz

    Ma’am, your problem was not caused by how you raised him. You did nothing wrong. In fact, you did the right thing by not brainwashing him or even conditioning him. The fault lies squarely with your education system, which did not teach him skepticism, curiosity, and a pursuit of knowledge. If people are not taught to question and to doubt and to (re)search, then they are liable to fall for anything.

    On a related notion, some campaigners want kids like this young man to get the right to vote. Can we really trust impressionable individuals with raging hormones to make an informed decision about the future of a country!?!

  • Ilya Grushevskiy

    The problem of radicalisation comes from the fact that British society has given up on any form of spiritualism, instead jumping straight to the nihilistic conclusion that any such thought is time wasted that otherwise could have been used to think of some equations etc.

    May not be incorrect, but it’s not for everyone.

    If the only voice that can be heard is the voice of a radical, even in a moderate society like Britain’s, it’s a sign that too many people are silent.

  • hdb

    There is one very obvious subject missing from the article and that is the question of circumcision. It is compulsory in Islam and a very big reason limiting the religion’s interest for European men (St Paul was pretty smart to get rid of circumcision in Christianity). I think we are never going to see huge numbers of teenage English boys saying goodbye to their foreskins and embracing Islam.

  • Jodi

    Excellent article. I’m seeing Islam as a cult. I never thought of it as that before, but when I do.. it makes perfect sense. Brainwashing, no personal responsibility, following blindly, no questioning… scary

  • mandelson

    Claire you just need to listen to Theresa May and Dave who are both eminent and erudite students of Islam and assure us Islam is a religion of peace.

  • Druth

    This woman (still) is a lefty-bigot.

  • jeffersonian

    Powerful article.

  • Richard

    Brits and Americans are so naive it isn’t true. I grew up in Africa, and they would arrive full of liberal bombast and hubris, knowing everything and how to solve all the problems. You would tell them, well, yes, the Africans stone cows when they wander into the maize-patch, they burn witches, they rape, they kill and mutilate bodies for use in medicines, yes, they do beat their wives, they do believe in zombies, they will assault the mentally-ill, believing they are possessed, many of the things that happened in Europe hundreds of years ago. The honest ones would, after some time, acknowledge that their preconceptions were out of kilter with reality, others would say it was all about education, ignoring the fact that many people who perpetrated these things were educated, but most would just avert their gaze and pretend these things didn’t exist, and that they hadn’t seen them. Then they could go home and say how terrible the whites were, and claim kudos and power for their own bravery and wonderfulness. One of the most important lessons to learn from modern Brits is: never let the truth interfere with your ideology. Ignore, lie, do whatever it takes, but don’t ever actually tell the truth and try to solve the problems. Just shuffle the pages and push them onto somebody else’s desk, and smile smugly.

  • Gentleman Jim Crow

    The moral of this tale appears to be; don’t let your children associate with Muslims.

  • margot gordon

    lovely clear wry writing. I love the spaces.

  • João Manuel Gomes

    For as sad as I was reading this article (and this is truly a saddening article) it enrages me when I see people oversimplifying the idea of Islamic radicalism: “Oh It’s America/UK/Europe/Israel’s fault!”, “Oh, it’s lack of jobs and poor education”. To sum up the reality that is experienced by those who seek to see reality for what it is: “I’ve come to think that it is youth, not persecution or poverty, that
    these Islamic State groupies have in common, an embryonic sense of
    identity. For them, blaming America for the world’s problems is the
    equivalent of shouting at their parents that they ‘never asked to be
    born’.”

  • quovadis2014

    A good message to enlightened liberal atheist humanists: when you believe in anything you believe nothing at all. That’s why this kid rebelled. His parents are spineless liberals and evidently had their backbones removed at birth. They never taught their kid right from wrong because there is no right and wrong to a Multicultural Leftist bleeding heart nude mollusk. Everything is relative, it’s a shade of grey so who are they to judge.
    You had this coming for years England. Don’t say we didn’t warn you.

  • lojolondon

    Wow. Very sobering. I wonder if ‘tough love’ would work – eviction from the house, get a job, support himself? I also reflecting that “The devil makes work for idle hands.”

  • Jack Smith

    Throughout this whole experience, the writer has maintained her commitment to her progressive, sententious do-goodery. Why does she think that it feels good to be liberal about islam? Is she as blasé about other obvious dangers? There is nothing to be commended about refusing to acknowledge obvious truths or recognise obvious dangers for ideological reasons. It just amounts to narcissism and intellectual dishonesty. The writer is every bit as irrational as her step son.

  • whs1954

    Ah – the quite predicatable zealotry of a convert.

    I will make one criticism of the OP – and it certainly is not her anticipated “dismiss[al] as a bigot, prejudiced against a religion I do not understand” – nothing she has said is prejudiced or bigoted.

    It is this – the moment she found the Koran in the bedroom, she – and perhaps it should have been she, and not the father – should have taken the belt to him and thrashed it out of him, and carried on thrashing it out of him til it was out. It is the only language the religion of peace understands.

  • radicalmoselem

    Nice try, Tommy Robinson/Douglas Murray. The irony is not lost on me but I’m afraid it was unintended. I’m glad your son “can now take responsibility for his life rather than seeking to blame others”, maybe it’s time uninterested parents who shirked their responsibilities stop blaming whatever ‘phase’ their teens choose when they act out in response to their impoverished upbringing.

  • Nick

    Is your stepson called Cat?

  • http://philipwitriol.wordpress.com/author/philipwitriol/ zchug

    I prefer the formulation “Muslim youths becoming Islamofascists” as opposed to the cuddly-sounding “radicalisation of our youths”

  • Vengeful Fruitcake

    That hatred of Jews, women and homosexuals was a consequence of his conversion to Islam, was it? Curious.

  • Nele Schindler

    I dare say if you are atheists and proud of this nonsense, you’ve had it coming.

  • global city

    I found something very similar in a neighbour who ‘reverted’. He was always a nice fellow, very intelligent, but somewhat of an empty vessel. When he became serious and decided to study, the Imam (not any ‘informal’ bolleaux of young mates) soon filled his head with all the most basic, important things that a good Muslim should think.

    ALL of it was the most appalling bigotry and contempt..for women, for Jews, for dogs, for Christians, then within 3 months, for anyone who was not a dedicated Muslim.

    It was quite distressing to witness and has led me to question just what we are tolerating in our society?

  • Picquet

    Sadly, our society today has been so neutered by the extreme ideologists that I can’t legally express my opinion. And we’re 30 years after 1984.
    John Dalton below has expressed the softer edge of my views.

  • Ave Ashley Victoria E

    She’s still such an idiot if she thinks as a Progressive Liberal which IS thee equivalent.
    Of Marxist, Communist, or Socialistic ideology. And completely opposes respect towards other believes or ideologies that doesn’t conform to it. However, It’s surprising she even remotely and ignorantly says that we need to fight for our “progressive democracy”.

    What a dumb idiot she is. No really. America was never BUILT ON DEMOCRACY.
    Let alone Liberal or Progressive Democracy.

    WE WERE BUILT ON A —> “CONSTITUTIONAL REPUBLIC” <—- DUH !!

    So sick of others thinking Democratic, Democracy, Liberal or Progressive Democracy is the same thing with what America was and ALWAYS has been built on. So Much Delusion.

    Someone and MANY Americans NEED to stop being so damn ignorant and buying into the Liberal dogma.

    I'm so sick of this. Along with Muslims in my country. That doesn't include my hatred towards unjustified, ignorant, stereotyped, and lies in reference to MY Jewish People. Antisemitism, along with bigotry towards ANY Nationality is wrong, immoral, and inhumane. It's a disease.

    I thought maturity steamed from 'judging' in respect and kindness on the basis of someones CHARACTER, HEART, and INTENTIONS.

    Not their f-ing physical appearance. When are people going to ever grow up?

  • Roger Hudson

    He is exactly the sort of lad that the political islamic groomers are looking for, a bit low in self direction and able to be indoctrinated, radicalised and a potential shahid. Watch out carefully for him.

  • Steven Carr

    Sadly, anti-Semitism is on the increase in the UK.

    If only the police could be given powers to prosecute hate speech.

  • Mary

    There is a saying, “If you don’t stand for something, you’ll fall for
    anything”. I believe that is true. Your son clearly is looking for
    something to believe in. What about reading about Jesus Christ. His
    truth is just the opposite of the bowl of lies Islam feeds people. He
    teaches love, acceptance, tolerance, kindness, compassion. And yet so
    many will try ANYTHING but Christianity. Jesus said I am the Gate. In
    other words there is no other way to God than through Jesus.
    Nevertheless He desires mercy from His children. He’s given us mercy
    and expects us to do the same for others. He does not condemn people.
    All too often people look at Christians with their many faults instead
    of looking at Christ, Who has none. And they judge the whole thing by
    our shortcomings. You are an atheist. Have you ever considered that
    you could be wrong? Are you willing to spend eternity without God, in
    eternal death for a philosophy? Maybe you could ask God to reveal
    Himself to you if He is, in fact, the Truth. I hope I see you in
    Heaven. May the God whose existence you deny, be merciful to you and
    bless you in such ways that your eyes and your heart will be open to the
    possibility of a loving God.

    • Tim Morrison

      “He’s given us mercy and expects us to do the same for others. He does not condemn people. All too often people look at Christians with their many faults instead of looking at Christ, Who has none. And they judge the whole thing by our shortcomings. You are an atheist. Have you ever considered that
      you could be wrong? Are you willing to spend eternity without God, in
      eternal death for a philosophy? ”

      You will forgive my confusion i hope. You say that God does not condemn and at the same time sentences people to eternal death because of philosophical disagreements. Personally I want nothing to do with a Christian God who does not allow freedom of thought or opinion. The worst human dictators have power limited to this life – the kind of claims that would damn for all eternity because of disagreements are unspeakable. If questioning a merciful Deity merits damnation then so be it – and I welcome damnation with joy.

      • Mary

        I understand your confusion, Tim. I would like to try to explain it to you. God does not condemn man to eternal death. Man condemns himself to eternal damnation. In the beginning the first man, Adam, sinned against God and because God cannot be in the presence of sin, they had to leave the garden. They were eternally separated from God and life became very difficult. That’s not so confusing, it’s clearly written in Genesis. Through Moses, God gave man the law. But the law could not save us. It could not change our sinful nature with which we were born from the time of Adam. So in God’s mercy, He sent His only Son, who came in the likeness of sinful man, but who had no sin and no sinful nature. He taught people. He showed them mercy. He exposed hypocrisy. He healed the sick, raised the dead, gave sight to the blind. He loved and healed all who came to Him. And when all he had done was love, He was crucified on a cross. He didn’t just die in vain, He took the sins of the world on Himself and they were nailed to the cross with Him. We need salvation because we are still in our sin. So now He offers us salvation as a free gift. But just like a Christmas gift you have to accept the gift in order for you to have any benefit from it. It is a simple concept. The ONLY thing that man has to do to receive salvation is to confess that he is a sinner and admit he needs a Savior. Ask Jesus to be that Savior and forgive him for his sin. And then confess to someone else what he’s done. It’s as simple as that. Sometimes the wisdom of God is foolishness to men and they are seeking some complicated Spiritual answer when it’s as simple as saying a prayer and asking Jesus to be your savior. To reveal Himself to you. And He will. There is so, so much more to say but that is the gospel of salvation in a nutshell. To reject the free gift is to condemn oneself to eternal damnation because sin will never enter heaven. God can’t be in its presence. When Jesus was on the cross He asked God, “Why hast thou forsaken me”. Because God turned His face away because He could not look at sin. So what you do with the message is up to you. All I can say is to ask God to reveal Himself and His purpose for your life. He will do so. I can’t say how because I don’t know. I know how He revealed Himself to me 34 years ago. It’s been a roller coaster ride (on my part). God never changes. But I did. I was wishy washy because I’m human. But I am totally focused on Him now and with His help I will stay that way. I’m no preacher but if asked, I will without hesitation, speak the gospel of peace to anyone who will listen. Gospel means Good news. And it is good news. We could never work our way to heaven. It can’t be done. Our righteousness is as filthy rags to God. We cannot work our way to Heaven. The only way is to accept the work that Jesus did on the cross. What does anyone have to lose??? I think people are afraid to ask God to reveal Himself because they are afraid He will. They think it means, okay I can’t have anymore fun. Life is over. I have to be sour and go to church all the time and I can’t be the person I am. God wants you just the way you are. When you accept Jesus, you become a new creation. You have a clean slate. He throws your sins as far as the east is from the west and remembers them no more. (that’s scriptural). Any changes in you will be from God. You will only become more like Jesus. You will love more. You will be kinder. You will be more complassionate. He will never make you into anyone you don’t want to be. He is a gentleman and does not force Himself on anyone. So there you have my condensed version of how and why sinful man is condemned. They do it to themselves by rejecting the free gift of God. It’s pretty plain. You can reject this as well. Or you can talk to Him and ask Him if He is real to show Himself to you in some way. And then listen for His still, small voice. Or watch. If you doubt His existence, think for a minute about the amazing world. The gazillions of different kinds of flowers, insects, animals. Consider the moon and the stars and how they mesh perfectly and how the moon controls the tides and how the earth revolves around the sun in a perfect orbit every 24 hours. Since the beginning of time. Or the human body with 206 bones and 840 muscles and blood which brings oxygen to all parts of the body and it heals itself! That did not just happen by a big bang. Anyway, man is constantly seeking something bigger than themselves because God created a space within our hearts that only He can fill. And we will never be complete or completely happy until He fills that vacuum. Nuff said. God bless you and I hope that you find whatever you’re looking for.

        • Tim Morrison

          You have spent a lot of time on composing a long answer and that is very kind of you indeed. It highlights the problem of courseThats the thing – God created the laws and then condemns people for breaking them. Impossible standards for salvation are set and then people who don’t meet them are damned. People who do spectacular evil are let through because of some kind of repentance – this creates a kind of spiritual moral hazard – rather like the system that lead to the banks collapsing.
          There is no God though – and if he is there – he will damn people who don’t believe in him – that is not gentlemanly at all.
          The doctrine you advocate is one of salvation of works by the way – people are saved by the work of accepting God – not because of what God did – therefore your salvation is through your own righteousness.

          • Mary

            It’s definitely not by works. Works are feeding the poor, being nice, loving others, etc. While they are important things and they are manifestations of a person who loves God, doing all those things will not get you into heaven. God cannot be in the presence of sin. So unless you have a covering for sin, you are not going to have eternal life. There is only one covering for sin—the blood of Jesus CHrist who is actually God in the person of a human. And accepting Jesus is not works. Accepting Jesus is a gift. Free. No strings attached. He’s not going to take it back. You can deny the existence of God. That’s perfectly fine but my philosophy in life is to try to live without regrets. Therefore I try to tell people I care about that I love them in case I don’t ever get the chance again. You very well could live with eternal regret. It’s not a bunch of your friends getting together drinking beer and playing poker. It’s a lake of fire that never goes out.
            Yes there are deathbed conversions. And since God knows the heart, he knows when people are sincere. So if someone waits until they are on their deathbed, it’s not for us to judge.
            So I’m not going to argue with you. But the fact that you have heard the truth and rejected it is what will send you to eternal death. Is it not even worth you asking God to show you the truth? You better be absolutely positive that you’re right, and then you’d better be right. Once you die, you have no more chances. And God does not promise us tomorrow. The Bible says now is the day of salvation. You could get run over by a truck tomorrow. You just don’t know. What I know is not a guess or a theory or a hypothesis or an I hope so. I know the truth. I can’t say how I know the truth. I just know the truth. You would too.
            So good luck to you, Tim. I hope that you learn the truth before you’re face to face with God. At that point He will ask you what you did with the knowledge of His son. I actually would like to see you there and say I’m glad you made it. Take care.

          • Tim Morrison

            I wonder how certain in your heart of hearts that you are actually saved and not bound for the fire yourself.

            Your point is still that the human act of submission/ repentance/ offering the self to God is necessary for salvation – one has to receive the free gift. The act of reception becomes more important that the sacrifice of Christ at that point. That means that you are not saved by Christ but by your act of salvation – I think that heresy was described in the 4th Century as Pelagian.

            My point though is a god who allows the same kind of freedom as that allowed in airport security – you are allowed to refuse to go through this check but you won’t be allowed to fly – is not worth a button. You have perfect freedom to disbelieve in me but that will lead you to eternal and permanant damnation.

            A human politician who thought like that (and we have had plenty) would have to be resisted to the utmost. if hell exists, and morally good people go there because of their disbelief then I take my stand with them.

  • cromwell

    Claire Stevens is a pseudonym. Says it all really.

    • Tim Morrison

      and you are called cromwell?

      • cromwell

        And you are called Tim?

        • Tim Morrison

          Yup, on account of that being my name.

          • cromwell

            Feel sorry for you but I suppose someone has to be called Tim.

  • Auntiemilibland

    I have long thought that Islam should be out-lawed in our country as it is not a religion, as the article describes, it is a cult. Adolph Hitler only reached such political heights because he used the poor, the hungry, the unemployed and the educationally impaired, why else would anyone fall for this kind of brain washing rubbish.
    These are sick men who can’t get a job with any real meaning unless they have a platform to denounce everything they are frightened of especially women!! Poor sad incompetent people are always dangerous because non of it is their fault.

    • cromwell

      Godwins law already.

      • Auntiemilibland

        I didn’t know what Goodwins Law was so had to google it. I don’t apologise for my ignorance only that in more modern times he is the only person who could be likened to these wicked people.

  • cromwell

    I do not believe this “My boy the radical Muslim ” exists, written by a pseudonym, sounds like a propaganda piece to me.

  • Rowland Nelken

    When I was at Primary School, way back in the 1950s, it was made clear that slavery was evil and the abolitionists were presented as heroes. Presumably that moral stance was different from that which would have been received by any child fortunate enough to have had a formal education in the 1750s. Islam, per se, of course, cannot be presented as an evil in the manner of slavery. Nevertheless, preaching of hatred of minorities, suppression of women, capital punishment, execution of apostates and special privileges for those of a certain religion, can be taught as backward and contrary to modern British values. That way children may be in a better position to be weigh up the messages from the ambassadors of imported and alien creeds.

  • Lamia

    There is no suggestion in this article that the odious young man feels any remorse for his behaviour or his propagation of hatred against other social groups. He seems to be as sel-absorbed as ever.

    As someone who’s long lived with the effects or threats of violent homophobia, I am tempted to say that I hope Claire Stevens’ nasty stepson is himself subjected to a very unpleasant violent attack. It might make him start to reflect on what his own role in contributing to hatred and violence against Jews, women and gay people has been.

    If that shocks Claire Stevens… good. Claire you and your partner deserve to feel shocked. I hope your stepson is going to make efforts to attone towards those he has incited hatred against, rather than just settling for telling himself he’s ‘good enough’.

  • Newts

    This just reaffirms my belief that religion, no matter how innocent at first, has the ability to radicalise and brainwash people into not just complete delusion, but also to the point where they hate others and are willing to kill in the name of god.

    Religion isn’t unique of course in this ability, Nationalism for example has a similar ability to draw people into extremism. The problem is that religion is unique in the way it relies on faith as it’s foundation. This is actually a state of ignorance to truth since it requires you to accept something without evidence and therefore in the converted persons mind renders any argument against it false regardless of how rational or reasoned that argument is.

    I feel humanity has come to a point where it has outgrown religion and those who cling onto it are insecure, ignorant or idiotic. I hope within my lifetime we might be able to somehow prove beyond reasonable doubt that there is no god, whether these people will listen and understand is a different story.

    • Jim

      All very profound I’m sure, but was Islam innocent in it’s origin or was it murderous and misogynistic like it’s founder. Are all religions created equal?
      Humanity, has clearly not outgrown religion as we see every day.
      I very much doubt that the pious will ever listen, even if you could prove that god, or anything else, does not exist.

      • Newts

        Some religions are worse than others, I would cite the Abrahamic as the worst and Buddhism or Jainism as the least worse.

        I would say that human knowledge gained from science has outgrown the need for religious belief, it only works if people open their minds up and cast away faith in the supernatural though.

        The pious are often quite happy to stick their heads in the sand and just say “You can’t prove god doesn’t exist” to which I say “The onus is on the religious to provide the burden of proof for their argument that god does exist”. In other words, I can’t prove a negative, it’s for them to prove a positive.. just they know they cannot provide any evidence to back up their assertions.

        • Jim

          Abrahamic? I think you need to delve a little deeper, this seems to me like a cop-out. Are Judaism and Christianity spread by way of the sword? Was Jesus a warlord?
          Human knowledge may well rescind the need for god, but clearly at least some humans (a shed-load in fact) still need religious belief. You may view that as an unnecessary need but it’s not me you need to convince, it’s them, and I don’t fancy your chances.

          • Newts

            It will take a very long time to convince people of that. The first step would be to help bring about development in the 2nd and 3rd world since studies show that people are more likely to ditch religion and become secularised if they have higher standards of living, good examples would be Scandinavian countries.

            Christianity used to be spread by way of the sword and if you look at the Palestinian crisis you can see that Israel will happily resort to the sword if necessary often spurred on by the orthodox fanatical nationalists. All three Abrahamic religions don’t have to dig deep into scripture to find justification for violence and war.

          • Jim

            Completely false. Judaism is not spread by the sword, and the ‘Palestinian crisis’ is a separate issue regarding the defense of Israel, not the promotion or spread of Judaism. Rarely has Christianity been spread by the sword. Islam is the only religion which prescribes conversion by the sword.
            I’m sure somewhere in there you were going to tell me about the origins of Islam, the life of Mohammed, as compared to that of Christianity and of Jesus, but I couldn’t see it in your reply.
            Read the Koran and the Bible. They are not comparable in any way as you will easily see.
            I’m afraid that I’m too long in the tooth to philosophise about this stuff. The facts and thus the truth are easy to see if you care to look. So go and look rather than starting from an assumption that all religions (abrahamic) are the same. They are not. I am an atheist by the way, for the avoidance of confusion.
            Oh and good luck with your grand plans for the third world.

    • Richard

      The seat of religion appears to be the temporal region of the brain. In other words, it has a physiological basis. However, that need for religion can be combined with other mental attributes in many ways, sometimes turning into passivity, or aggression, or intolerance, or tolerance, etc. The unfortunate thing about Islam is that the people among whom it has taken root are obviously by nature susceptible to its violent calling, just as those who follow Buddhism are susceptible to its passive calling. Religion therefore mirrors the people within which it exists, and Islam becomes an excuse for violence.

      • Damaris Tighe

        What about the billion plus people born into Islam? I think you’re right that many who choose it today are of violent disposition, but it’s also true that many born muslim try to change it in their minds into a version of Buddhism or Christianity.

        • Richard

          Yes, of course, there will be some. Think of it as a sin-curve: most are clustered around the middle, with some outliers. If you take the centre of the bulge as the average, you will see that some are more violent and others less so, but they will cluster around the average, which is a non-challenging, acceptance of what is presented to them. They will tolerate violence, those at one tail will propound it, and those at the other tail will reject it. It is interesting to note that most human behaviour follows this distribution, as far as I am aware.

          • Damaris Tighe

            I had a very interesting discussion with Tarek on the thread following ‘Why is Theresa May Pretending that Islam is a Religion of Peace?’.

  • vp

    I stop reading such articles when people talk about raising their kids as “tolerant” of other religions – or flaunt being “tolerant” -or “I believe in religious tolerance”- do you say you are “tolerant” of your siblings? or just respectful ?

    • Sarka

      Good point. I was brought up to be respectful to other people, unless such people were behaving appallingly. That certainly included (though these principles were more implicit than uttered), not going out of my way to upset or provoke some person with views different from mine. The latter was a politness matter, mostly…the command was not that I should have to “respect” beliefs or views I disliked, but that I should be civil to the people who had them. There was never any bar on my expressing negative views of creeds, ideologies in private…though I was encouraged to use reasoned argument rather than engage in childish abuse.

      • Damaris Tighe

        This is very true. I regret the few times that muslims have come to these threads & are then treated appallingly, despite evidence that they are not frothing at the mouth Islamofascists. I see it as an opportunity to find out what ‘moderate’ muslims think. And also, however much we dislike the religion, we have no idea what an individual really believes, & he should be treated with respect & engaged with. If nothing else, it’s a matter of courtesy.

        • Richard

          Labour turned this whole exercise into a naked power struggle. If you ask questions, you are critical, and must be silenced. This type of control was extended to almost everything, from immigration concerns, to religion, to women, to intellectual ability, to everything. They forced round pegs into square holes, and tried their best to flatten everything into a pancake, the better to get votes and control the populace. This thinking has permeated society at every level. No judgements are allowed, excepting in the cases of race and paedophilia. Everything else, even murder, is tolerated and explained away.

  • Abbey Lane

    I had the same problem with my son and I told him he wasn’t living in

    my house if he became a muslim. That changed his mind although he sometimes spouts off about Jews and I am mighty offended. You are right, muslims have no right to subvert our English youngsters. That extremely offensive behavior should be made illegal.It is not as bad as when people realized muslims were ‘brain washing’ very young children throughout their school years, no one even knows how long has it been going on? There is an old saying or two East – West should never meet! And it is a realistic ‘saying’. There seems no common decency in their make-up, and there is our government bending over backwards to please the throw-backs from a different time-ancient time where nothing has ever changed. Now we see videos the muslims have put on-line depicting cold blooded murders, mass shootings, be-headings little children and women killed in an orgy of blood letting. They lack normal feelings. I hear some want to ‘come home’ this country isn’t their HOME. Lord help us if the government allows them to come to England.

  • Raymond of Canada

    I always taught my grandson to never believe a word a Muslim says and never bow to the Pope. I think I will stick to this philosophy.

    • Bonkim

      He will follow you until he starts finding out for himself.

  • Robyn Stewart Hansen

    I can say with complete faith that if my son asked me why I was not cooking for him and his father and called me lazy, he would find his worthless ass locked out of my house. I do not believe in liberalism, progressive democracy or tolerance for anything or anyone who wants to kill me, rob me of my own faith, take away my free will, believes in child molestation, rape, abuse of women, horrific murders, etc. This is pure Satan, and I reject Satan completely. Islam should be eradicated from the face of the earth along with anyone who associates themselves with such darkness. To tolerate such evil is to welcome your own demise.

    • Tim Morrison

      So in the name of love, peace and justice you would eradicate Islam from the face of the earth. Your post must be breaking UK law about incitement to violence be it religious or racial. You have become what you despise.

  • Richard

    There is an undeniable link between attraction to Islam and lower-than-average intelligence, unfortunately, as well as social and personality problems. We know that the average IQ-level is falling in the UK as a result of mass immigration from areas of lower IQ-scores, so by this measure alone Islam will triumph. It dispenses with the need to have any individual higher-level functioning, instead functioning as a collective. Some people refuse to believe in IQ-scores, saying they have nothing to do with intelligence. Whatever the case may be, there is a very strong correlation with IQ-scores and achievement in life. So lower IQ predicts a lower achievement in life, and has nothing to do with education. And as we know, Orientals who are culturally disadvantaged by European-based testing norms still outperform Europeans in these tests. In other words, it is quite predictable that Islam, being attractive to those of lower intelligence, will rise in Britain, as we decline.

    • Mike

      The reason that IQ is falling is due to the limited gene pool of those who refuse to integrate creating off spring with mental disabilities.

      • Bonkim

        and marry their gene-damaged cousins.

      • Richard

        Yes. There is more to it, too, but it doesn’t feature in discussion in the modern anti-science world.

        • Mike

          Of course its very politically incorrect to discuss these truisms which border on racism if you listen to progressives, but Oriental Asians as you said do out perform white Europeans and I saw it first hand in the last company I worked for. I was based in the UK working for a Californian semiconductor company and the technical support staff over there who supported sales support engineers like myself were 80% Oriental Asians and around 20% white engineers. They were very good, knew their stuff and were very supportive to the regional offices.

          Thats one reason I get very annoyed when sloppy journalism makes no distinction among Asian men when some atrocity occurs as there’s a very large range of ethnic minorities and Oriental Asians from China, Vietnam, South Korea couldn’t be more different to Pakistani or Bangladeshi Asians. The oriental culture is more westernized, religion is a non issue and integration is very effective and sought after by them.

          Its telling that the progressive liberals and their hacks are quick enough to accuse us of stereotyping those in one ethnic group but here they are stereo typing two or more continents when describing gang rapists as being Asian.

          When it comes to criminal acts, each ethnic and social group has its own preferences of criminal activities but now it seems political correctness forbids the law enforcement agencies to target the most likely group for a specific crime. I’m sure they will target specific social groups within a ethnic white community when dealing with specific sorts of criminal activity but as we saw in Rotherham, that targeting is forbidden if its a favored group and they are ignored despite overwhelming evidence of criminal activity.

          • Richard

            You will find in the UK that “Asian” generally refers to Indian subcontinent, and “Oriental” to what lies east of that. In apartheid South Africa, despite legal/social sanction, Orientals did very well. If you look at universities in the US that admit students based on SATS tests, rather than academic results, you will find Orientals are represented way out of proportion to their numbers. The book, “IQ and the Wealth of Nations” is very helpful, epistemological concerns notwithstanding.

    • Bonkim

      You can say that about anyone believing in any religion.

      • Richard

        To any extent, but it is complicated. We know that the religious impulse is seated in the temporal lobe, and I think is associated with some sort of mental processing designed to make sense of thing around us (a sort of abstract type of pattern-recognition). The extent to which this is mediated by reason will probably depend on the intelligence of the individual, which is why less intelligent people are more easily duped by political argument (look at Labour, for instance). More intelligent people will also be attracted sometimes, but that is because they smell out an opportunity for power-accumulation or moneymaking. A religion like Buddhism does not present the violent aspects of the Abrahamic faiths (most extremely represented in Islam) but of course any religion doubles as a social activity and affiliation-group. I don’t see the need for religion myself, as I try to interact with the universe without the mediation of somebody who thinks they know better, or dons a particular plumage to assert control. However, I am aware that facing the abyss is simply too much for some, and they need some sort of mediation. Don’t you think that is the same impulse that drives culture, the need to interpret and mediate so that people don’t have to do that themselves, or face the awful truth on their own? I don’t understand what mediation Islam brings, as I see only social control and violence, but presumably some do find this. The trouble is, they simply don’t seem to have the intelligence to differentiate between good and bad bits.

  • Mike

    Sadly yet another innocent person, aid worker Alan Henning appears to have been beheaded by these sick Islamic psychos and STILL the ruling elite in the west refuse to connect the dots that Islam is the root cause of the most barbaric criminal acts we see around the world today.

    There is NOT any peaceful elements in Islam as its full of strictures to kill, subdue, control, rape or blackmail anyone not willing to give themselves to its twisted ideology thats far worse than anything the Na-zis ever dreamed up.

    What will it take for our ruling elite to confront this evil religion, 10 more be-headings, 10000 more girls gang raped, 100,000 killed in a terrorists act because believe me, it will happen until Islam is removed from mainstream influence and emasculated to a point it can’t spread its cancer any further.

    • 70sgirly

      Of course they’re complicit. Whether it’s ISIL or the myriad Muslim problems at home, Cameron, May, KFC and officials in Rotherham are all working on the assumption that the Muslim Community are a mob, primed on a hair trigger for any real or imagined offence.

    • grumpy_old_ben

      Once again, we see glimpses of an untold story. Alan Henning has been shown on TV in the company of a group of young ME Muslims, described as his “friends”. BBC World this morning, showed a brief clip of him among a group of men in what is clearly a mosque, apparently at prayer.

      Someone filmed those images and gave them to the BBC – why? More importantly, and this is surely incumbent on the BBC, what is their context?

      For that matter, were I the ArchBishop of Canterbury, I would be issuing instructions that his local clergy be given brooms, and sent to do something useful with their lives.

      • Mike

        I watched that interview also and it did raise some awkward questions in my mind as why didn’t those Muslims try and protect Alan Henning especially as he was an aid worker.

        Sadly for us and stupidly for Cameron, May & LibLabCon the panderers and apologists for Islams excess’s refuse to confront what is happening. Sooner or later the ruling elite will have the blood of many thousands on their hands as unless they do something now to curtail the Islamification of the UK, a religious/cultural war will kick off when the majority decide its gone to far and take the law into their own hands.

  • I-RIGHT-I

    If you believe in nothing you’ll fall for anything.

  • Liz

    Count yourself lucky they weren’t pimping his ass out.

  • Alistair Kerr

    Just read the Qur’an and, worse still, the Hadith. There is no difference between Islam and Islamism. Britain has always harboured apologiss for its worst enemies, including Nazism and Communism. It has always “tolerated” the enemies in person. Lenin and Stalin both lived here in safety. So, it has been suggested, did Hitler for about two years. Instead of handing Karl Marx over to the King of Prussia’s police, we let him live here and work at formulating his totalitarian creed. It’s time that this particular “nice” tradition was ended.

  • Guy Moran

    all of you arrogant english should beg forgiveness from israel for your country’s participation in the bias and blame directed at israel. and cease your endless Hypocrisy .

    • Suzy61

      Guy, you should visit these pages more often. Lots of people here are very supportive of Israel. Go and check out the comments on here during the last Israel/Gaza conflict. We do not all think like the Liberal London elite.

      • Guy Moran

        i know a lot are, and it’s not fair to those, but from where i stand i see an over whelming majority of the other side.

        • Bonkim

          Learn to analyse fairly rather than be one sided.

    • Bonkim

      Occupying land and turning those living there into refugees is a war crime.

      • Guy Moran

        pure antisemitism, and the scary part is that you seem to be happy in being an ignorant.
        i’m not going to bother to explain, as i’ve seen a lot of people who speak from ignorance like you, but at some point it’s no longer just ignorance.
        it’s pure antisemitism.
        and you fit the bill.
        now tell me “oh here we go again about antisemitism”, see the problem is that i’m sure that puting aside israel, you have claims abotu jews.
        i know people like you all too well (from the web, of course).

        • Bonkim

          Israel was created as atonement for two millennia of persecuting Jews by Christian Europe. I have no problem with Jews or people of any other faith or no faith. Jews as a people have contributed hugely to world science, technology, arts/music, and creative media. However the Holocaust and two millennia of persecution appears to have been lost on the State of Israel given their inability to understand what they have done to the people they took the land from – pre 1950s the Arabs were looked on as barbaric scum and expendable by the West as most other people of Africa and Asia. Racism was alive and well.

          The world has changed since then, but Israel does not appear to understand that. Israel is militarily strong, and its people intelligent and capable; The intelligent streak in Israeli politics appear to have been put under by Likud and ultr-nationalists that are little better that the neo-fascists of Europe and Ukraine, or the Islamic madmen of Israel’s neighbours.

          It would take leadership and foresight to find a way to come to terms with the people they robbed and negotiate honestly and meaningfully despite the frustrated Palestinians throw pathetic firecrackers and promise death.

          Far from being terrorist, Hamas’ attempts can only be described as self-destruct and laughable.

          • Guy Moran

            who are you kidding ? lost on the state of israel, you utter liar and hypocrit.
            look at syria, did the world get what they did 70 years ago to jews ? and yet, somehow the lesson is not lost on the world, right ? just on jews.
            amazing.
            how many palestinians were killed by israel (including terrorists) in 70 years of conflict ? 10000 ? less.
            look what happens around the world, especialy this region, you lying antisemite, and yet your whole focus is israel. don’t pretend otherwise. and as for “hamas is laughable” – listen : when rockets fly at your home i’ll laugh too, ok ? till then, you’re the joke.

          • Bonkim

            Bad language will not get you anywhere. Technically you are correct – if Israel simly says that might is right ad they can do what they want similar to what Assad of Syria or any other common Dictator in the region, I have no problem with that – don’t then ask people in more civilized locations on earth to accept what Israel is doing or to support it. On a practical consideration, Israel is not the flavour of the month in the region, ISIL and other nasties are simply waiting for an opportunity, the US will not remain the No 1 superpower for ever and the west will tire off Likud tantrums.

            The real question is whether Israel wants to be judged by civilized standards or by those prevailing in the region.

            There must be a pill for bad language and many doctors in Tel Aviv to cure your retarded brain.

          • Guy Moran

            oh yes, judged by the standards of the british soldiers who molested iraqi and afgans, and then got away with it with a slap on the wrist thanks to some more high standards. sure, you will preach to israel.
            nothing will cure my mind from the truth, my eyes are open and i will not be silent for assholes like you who don’t know what fact is and what fiction is. you can’t count the numbers of palestinians dead in 70 years, cause you’ll have to explain how arabs kill more in 3 months or less (usualy less). do not think you are fooling anyone , i repeat, you are an anti semite.

          • Bonkim

            Yes teaches me not to engage in discussion with coceited idiots. I bet you are not Jewish – they have more intellect.

          • Guy Moran

            i’m a jew, but for the purpose of this thread it’s not important. what is important is that i stand here and point at you for being antisemitic.
            how many palestinians were killed by israel in the last 21 years ? no answer, huh ?

          • Bonkim

            I don’t give a damn how many Palestinians were killed by Israel or in their own civil wars – one can almost say they deserve to die given their stupid antics of throwing pebbles into Israel and wailing and sobbing – the point is Israel if it professes to be guided by western standards of morality and civilized behaviour needs to walk the moral high ground and act according to international law – given Israel’s superiority militarily and intellectually, and also given the long history of how Jews were discriminated and exploited over the centuries by Christian Europe – at a time when they were better off in non-Christian countries. Likud is a criminal gang and Nethanyahu is a war criminal.

          • Guy Moran

            so basically you expect israel to do nothing when rockets are thrown at israel. are those western ideals ? maybe you can give an example for this in practice. but liars will never find a supporting truth, please show me how i’m wrong.

          • Guy Moran

            it’s either siding with israel or siding with hamas , there’re no middle grounds here, and you’re on the side of hamas, an antisemitic organisation , only stands to reason that you would support those most like you.

          • Bonkim

            Rubbish – taking sides is stupid – I don’t take sides – look at each situation on merits. You are living in a society that is bigoted and only see your own interests/viewpoints – not much different from the Nazis, IS and Islamic radicals that inhabit your region – one can say you deserve each other.

          • Damaris Tighe

            Bonkim, given your comments re ‘western standards of morality’ didn’t you post elsewhere that IS should be bombed into the stone age?

          • Bonkim

            First of all morality is difficult to define, relative and varies with time/place. What you are probably referring to is certain standards of ethical behaviour – such as rule of law, fair play, equality and freedom from bigotry/prejudice, etc.

            However all that has to be moderated in circumstances where the very existence of what you define as ethical/moral standards are threatened by an enemy that does not recognize those standards and has their own standards that eliminating yours is their moral imperative.

            Much like you don’t start arguing with the Ebola virus whether it is acting morally. Get rid of the virus before it spreads and destroys all that you believe in.

            To be fair IS can put the same logic in trying to eliminate us and who will blame them for that – but my motto is shoot before they shoot at you – yes bomb IS to smithereens – and don’t bother with the UN or International Court of Justice – ISIS is a nebulous concept/idea/gospel/belief system and their followers don’t need/don’t have any conventional organisation or leadership to negotiate with or agree terms – just get rid of the virus by any means before they get you.

          • Damaris Tighe

            It’s not what I referred to, it’s the ‘western standards’ you referred to in the post about Israel I replied to.

          • Bonkim

            Israel/Hamas? – can’t find the post and I have forgotten what the context was – in general terms Israel is the aggressor here – whilst acknowledging the Darwinian principle of survival of the fittest and that after nearly 70 years it is a bit late to hold Israel for its occupation and making Palestinians into refugees in their own land, Israel uses force out of proportion to the irritation suffered from the puny fire crackers thrown at them by Hamas terrorists – you would expect a wronged people to try to harm Israel and wish its extinction – but Israel is a highly organised/powerful state with modern weaponry and technical ability. As such it could afford to be more considerate and use its skills to negotiate/give a little to bring peace to the region. It would also be good PR and Israel has stymied efforts by well wishers in the past to broker a peace settlement based on a two state formula.

            My comments may have been along those lines – in the mean time obstinacy breeds more hatred. Israelis of all people on earth should know better their two millennia of persecution in Christian Europe and understood the Palestinian psyche. Israel is therefore to be judged by today’s civilized standards and rules of international law whereas Hamas can be forgiven because they are a rabble and Israel is strictly speaking not in danger of being run over by Hamas regardless of the noises Hamas makes out of primitive frustration – they are not that sophisticated and living in the Middle-Ages.

  • beenzrgud

    Just read the news this morning that Alan Henning has been killed, it made me feel sick.
    It’s time we stopped with these half measures and started breaking out the daisy cutter bombs. We know where these people are and we need to make sure we utterly destroy them. If possible I don’t want to hear about one more beheading by these monsters. Any sympathisers in the UK need shipping back to wherever they originated asap, either that or they can go and live in Saudi Arab or Qatar. Anywhere just not here.

  • Captain_Hook

    Mindless devotion to any doctrine, religious or political is, at bottom, an indication that one is too lazy to think for oneself and is willing to let others do the thinking.

  • Dr. Heath

    We don’t know how many adherents of the Religion of Hatred and Violence, sorry, I meant the Religion of Peace, believe in the concepts of jizya, taqiya and second-class dhimmi citizenship. I suspect that it’s a lot fewer than alarmists choose to believe. How many Roman Catholics today share the belief of possibly the last sociopath – Mary I – to exercise autocratic rule over the people of the British Isles, that she was mandated by her god to terrorise her subjects into renouncing Protestantism and returning to the religious cult with the ‘correct’ beliefs, namely, of course, her own? Very few, if any. But the numbers don’t particularly matter when you’re faced with spectacularly deranged gangs of people who hate us and believe that their god wants them to kill us.

    The gravity of the problem facing the secular West is one that the author and a number of people posting comments below have highlighted and one which, by answering the following rhetorical questions, we can understand more clearly.

    ONE – If a citizen started spouting hate-filled bile against homosexuals, women, Jews, anyone in fact who did not belong to a certain category of male, Muslim believer, would the well-meaning hate-crime proscriptions currently on the statute books of many ‘progressive’ secular states lead to anything at all being done in response to the bile, the hate-filled, public rages heard in mosques and repeated on social media?

    TWO – If a citizen started spouting hate-filled bile against homosexuals, women, Jews, anyone in fact, who wasn’t a Caucasian, non-Jewish citizen, would the well-meaning hate-crime proscriptions currently on the statute books of many ‘progressive’ secular states lead to anything at all being done in response to the bile, the hate-filled, public rages heard at, say, EDL meetings and repeated on social media?

    I’d answer ‘yes’ only to Question Two. The Choudarys of this world have nothing whatsoever to fear from our timorously milquetoast political and judicial authorities. Mrs. May’s new law will prove to be just another example of capitulation.

    Friday’s lead editorial in The Spectator is a must-read as it reminds us how these questions have been answered under New Labour, then under a Conservative-led coalition, and how they will definitely be answered should the utter disaster of a Miliband-led anti-government of Harmanistas befall the UK next May.

  • David Tillman

    The entire Western world needs to start fighting Islam. Non-Muslims have tried to co-exist with them for 1400 years with no success. The problem is people will read an article like this, nod in agreement…and…nothing changes.

  • Laguna Beach Fogey

    Clearly this young man should be detained and/or shut down, before he commits an act of violence.

    Call the EDL, or, better yet, some English patriot vigilantes.

    I’m afraid this woman’s life is in danger.

  • The Patriot

    I’m of the ‘better safe than sorry’ opinion – Islam should be banned, all Muslims removed, all mosques destroyed or converted… The country becomes peaceful once more, people not being beheaded in the streets nor blown up on buses and tube trains…. Multiculturalism has indeed failed, as Cameron admitted and yet did sweet FA to undo… and it has failed in the most part because of this one aggressive, totalitarian and most intolerant culture.

    • Tim Morrison

      How?

    • Bonkim

      Need your head examined! You are no Patriot – common idiot.

  • gon

    Was this written by the CIA, I find this very dodgy, is there anyway to contact the author? Your last sentence very clever, I know what u were doing there. Question, is your son still Muslim, assuming this is a true story.

  • http://www.picsofcelebrities.net/blog/2012/05/08/voice-season-finale Cromulent

    The wages of Islam are bitter indeed. Its been this way for 1400 years.

    Simply put, friends don’t let friends become Muslim. If you can’t parent the boy properly, try being his friend.

  • londondave

    If you think 7 Muslim men piling into your 16 year old son’s bedroom is “normal” — then you’re as nuts as he clearly is.

  • grumpy_old_ben

    then you

  • Bonkim

    This is a made up story to attract waffle.

  • scroggs

    The key to this behaviour is the boy’s refusal – happily temporary – to exercise any critical faculties when considering a form of religion. Psychological reasons for such an approach can persist (see Louise Mensch’s disturbing article in the same issue) well beyond puberty. Psychologists should encourage greater self-awareness.

    • ardenjm

      Any religion that refuses rationality – and the possibility of attaining to truths with reason – is deeply dangerous.
      But rationality is not identical with scientific materialistic reductionism as the atheist philosopher Nagel points out. More pertinently, if post-modernism hadn’t become so relativistically sceptical about attaining to truth and the very notion of rationality itself the West (in its Enlightenment sense) might have mounted a stiffer resistance to the religious crazies.
      Relativists and nihilists with their implicit and explicit denial of rationality are just as much to blame for this present mess as the religious crazies who say that they don’t need reason because their Revelation replaces their intelligence and justifies whatever (they think) God asks them to do.
      This was what Pope Benedict was saying in his Regensberg address a few years back and, because he said that Islam had a real problem with rationality, it sparked such irrational controversy.
      From what I can tell in your few lines above I’m thinking you probably disagree with Nagel. But he is right.
      I don’t require anyone to agree with my religious faith – but I do require a belief in rationality and rationality in its fullest, not reductive and certainly not relativised-away sense. If you can agree with me on that then, as a religious believer, that’s all I need.
      If you can’t then I guess I put you on the shelf with the religious nutters and the nihilists because, effectively, you’re all anti-human.

      • scroggs

        I wouldn’t dream of being so discourteous as to disagree with Nagel when I have read virtually nothing that he wrote! My observations are based simply on my own experience of legal practice and an interest in history and literature. If you act for people who have behaved in a bizarre way you sometimes find that psychology or psychiatry can show underlying reasons for this. I think it would help people if they could begin to understand why a particular form of religious practice attracts them, and why they might want to block out any sort of rational inquiry into the beliefs that support it. Even if people try to think rationally about religion they are likely to be at a disadvantage if they have no knowledge at all of biblical criticism or ecclesiastical history. This is often the case where an enthusiast announces, ‘The Bible says ..’ or ‘The Church teaches ..’ and thinks that the observation concludes a particular question.

      • Bonkim

        Is religion, any religion rational? Is the Pope’s religion real Christianity or simply a political creed? Is Islam practised by ISIS real Islam?

  • Sulla

    The author’s talk of ‘respecting other religions’ and atheism rang alarm bells. It is quite obvious that their boy was taught woolly multi-culti nonsense instead of rigorous empiricist scepticism not just at home but at school (where this bilge is shoveled into young minds). The minute a religion, or extremist ideology that brooks no such compromise, arises within such a cultural context young people who have been rendered culturally rootless by cultural marxism and crass consumerism, start to latch on to such movements because they are at once rebellious and contain certainties that save you from the bother of thinking for yourself. Then begins the slow slide to cultural self-immolation…

    • Paddy Kilshamus

      Very true, the deracination of our people through cultural marxism does leave them prey to extreme and absolutist ideologies. The problem is all our leaders have swallowed the cultural marxist poison and want to spread it further as if it is a cure to all social ills. They have imported their own nemesis it seems. I cannot see them abandoning their liberal beliefs so they are going to compromise more and more until the power has shifted to the other group who will not tolerate dissent from the liberal minority . The whole situation is quite insane and would be comical if the consequences were not so very dire. Incredible how quickly we have begun to decline through this poisonous ideology. Gramsci and Adorno et al would be astonished at the success of their ‘march through the institutions’. I only hope more people wake up to the origin of this disabling toxin.

    • Paddy Kilshamus

      Very true, the deracination of our people through cultural marxism does leave them prey to extreme and absolutist ideologies. The problem is all our leaders have swallowed the cultural marxist poison and want to spread it further as if it is a cure to all social ills. They have imported their own nemesis it seems. I cannot see them abandoning their liberal beliefs so they are going to compromise more and more until the power has shifted to the other group who will not tolerate dissent from the liberal minority . The whole situation is quite insane and would be comical if the consequences were not so very dire. Incredible how quickly we have begun to decline through this poisonous ideology. Gramsci and Adorno et al would be astonished at the success of their ‘march through the institutions’. I only hope more people wake up to the origin of this disabling toxin.

  • CMx

    British values? What values? It has become a God-less nation.
    Once a great Christian nation.
    The Queen is head of the Church of England, yet endorsed gays, in direct contradiction to the Holy Lord God Almighty.

    Who would think false religions would hold a higher morale standard.
    Islam does not act like a religion. Look at its actions and goals.

    I knew in the 1980s that is was at total enmity against our culture and Constitution.
    The two cannot coexist.

    • Liz

      Christianity is the only source of values? What, a middle-Eastern religion?

  • CMx

    Archaeology and writings alone before Muhammad will show what is true.

    This is interesting….make a list of things about Muhammad and Joseph Smith.
    The list is the same. Seeking an answer; visited by an Angel, modified existing religion, created a true religion, has a higher book than the Bible, multiple wives, their ages, their deaths; sex in heaven, all others are wrong and wrong Jesus.

    • Damaris Tighe

      Yes, I’d also noticed the parallels with mormonism.

  • Thaddeus lovelock

    Islam comes with a lot of ideological baggage and most of it is quite unpleasant, the sooner, Muslims, realize this, and take active steps to redeem , their, religion, the better for everyone.

  • KyraNelson

    I think the story really begins with “we were atheists”.

  • Thomas Johnson

    This has nothing to do with Islam. Your child has a problem with you that causes him to break a cardinal virtue of Islam, which is to respect his parents.

    • sebastian2

      The lady is not his parent. Moreover, she’s a kuffir. As such, she’s little more than an unbelieving concubine. A cardinal “virtue” of islam is to hate the unbeliever. Another is the subordination of women. A third – rather more tribal – is the importance of blood links, of which she has none. The lady has very little going for her in orthodox mohammedan eyes. Time to escape, I think. And to thank her judeo-christian-secular-liberal citizenship for granting her the freedom to do so.

    • peter the painter

      ..unless it is Sunni islam.

  • Bristol Common Sense

    I can confirm this is not an isolated case. I worked in an office, I was the only
    European Atheist. The only European of around 25, all bar 4 were
    Muslims. They were well dressed, all very kind, polite, respectful
    and hard working; although not the brightest bunch. I got to know
    them well. They tried to convert me or persuade me my problems were
    because I had no religion. Many of them blamed the western culture
    for the problems many faced. On some things I agree with them. I
    agree we are way too soft on Crime, we are to soft on the Sexualization
    of children on TV and media, we are too soft on many things, one of
    witch is the spread of Islam, but id never tell them that for fear of
    the reaction; I’m British, we don’t do cutting honesty very well
    if it might offend somebody’s feelings! Heaven Forbid! Also the answer is not
    Islam. The answer is to stop voting for the same political party’s
    hell bent of annoying everybody and driving people to extremism.
    I asked one of them, playing devils advocate, “How do you stop your children being brainwashed with the western culture and propaganda at school and at
    home on the TV?” “simple” he said. The school inform the
    parents of any subjects they will be covering that might be offensive
    to Muslims, each school has an Islamic adviser and they highlight the
    “danger” subjects, and they pull their kids out of these classes.
    They leaving our kids to get the full onslaught of the Governments
    Multi Cult propaganda while their kids don’t get it at all. They then go home and
    watch Arabic satellite TV, downloaded programs or go to the Madrassa
    every evening after school for hard core western bashing.
    They all seem to be obsessed with the Jews, they think 9/11 was the job of the Jews, Jew owned media, MI5, FBI, CIA the Jews have all our governments in their pocket because they apparently own the bank of England and the Federal Reserve. The Muslims are of course just innocent victims. They don’t care about
    racism or Hitler, they think the world would be better off if Hitler
    succeeded, because Hitler had a few battalions of Muslims and was in
    league with the Ottoman grand Mufti not to mention his hatred of the
    Jews. I was sure there were many things they didn’t like about Atheists or
    Christians but they refrained from telling it to me to my face.

  • sebastian2

    I would like to offer sympathy to you but I’m afraid I cannot. I try, but cannot. Why? Because any sane and intelligent person should know the dangers – actual and potential – in marrying a mohammedan male. What liberal could ever consent to it? What liberal woman could ever cohabit with an illiberal misogynist creed that allows the man to marry an unconverted women but prohibits a mohammedan woman to marry an unconverted man? Where’s the equality in that? You, madam, are turning cartwheels. And moreover, your step-son will hold you in contempt – expecting you as, a kuffir femail, to be subordinate to him. You have little to look forward to. My most sincere advice is to end this marriage forthwith and place as much distance as you can between it and yourself. It, like the creed it now confronts you with, is a road to nowhere. You will never adjust.

  • Diggery Whiggery

    The thing liberal atheists need to understand is that they created the vacuum that makes this possible.

    • Paddy Kilshamus

      That is a short and precise statement. Less is more sometimes.

    • Rifleman1853

      I can’t remember who said it, but this expresses the danger very well:

      “When people stop believing in something, they don’t believe in nothing – they will believe in <anything."

      It’s the same principle used in brainwashing; if you create a vacuum in somebody’s mind, whatever comes along first will be gladly accepted by the brainwashed, desperate for some framework to cling to. I understand the Moonies recruited in the same fashion, and deliberately aimed at the immature, lost and bewildered. In other words, youngsters who had been brought up in the same way as the young man described above.

    • peter the painter

      Correct. They’re eugenicists in wool clothing.

  • CGR

    Poison

  • cartimandua

    He had a period of rotten mental health where the certainties of fundamentalism were a comfort. Lets hope he recovers.

  • peter the painter

    Since the war we’ve had Spivs, Teds, Mods, Hippies, Punks, Skinheads, Anti-Thatcherites, New Romantics, New age travellers &
    the Occupy movement. Now there is no tribe for youth to join in rebellion
    greater than the Islamofascists. As with the former, hate is also the
    answer. Before it was hate fogeys, squares, Tories, capitalists &
    hypocrites…now hate everything British.
    It always comes down to ‘What are British values’? They were, if anything christian ones – of forgiveness, tolerance and charity.
    The power of the former British empire provided this sagacious magnanimity. All the other rebellions were against the hypocrisy of the ‘older generation’ because their Christian values had turned pale, it wasn’t strong enough, it was fractured. We forgot what we were about yet expected that turning the other cheek would work regardless of our lack of convictions. Time to contemplate a subculture which has serious intent. Which has a far more potent ideology than national socialism. Apathetic & cool hipsterism will not tide over the increasingly fiscally disenfranchised youth to come.

    • Paddy Kilshamus

      Interesting comment. These subcultures arose since the war and as the Empire decayed. The fragmentation of society after the death of the heart of Europe. The suicide of Europe in a civil war. Perhaps it is all going down the toilet or perhaps another subculture will emerge in opposition to this abortive liberal democracy and one strong enough to resist the invasion and corrosion of the West by recovering the sense of purpose we seem to have lost or which has been undermined by liberalism and egalitarianism. We certainly live in interesting times and are on the brink of something significant. The Muslim ideology has nothing to contribute to the West but the recollection of an earlier purity of purpose. That may be its legacy, to awaken the lethargic decadent West into self assertion.

      • peter the painter

        We need Aristocracy, not democracy. We falsely ascribe social mobility to the democractic age, when it is in essance and aristocratic attribute, which a democractic age falsely attributes to itself, when in reality all its policies all ultimately lead to an undoing of social mobility and to a triumph of a fixed hirearchical stasis (Oligarchy).

        • Paddy Kilshamus

          But it is a false goal because the pecking order always reasserts itself. Was it not Marx who said the dominant ideas of an age are the ideas of the ruling class? he communist revolution just installed another bunch of rulers. Hitler is despised because he was honest about hierarchy and natural aristocracy. He aimed at a meritocracy I think. Maybe there is reconfiguration about to take place but I doubt it will be anything but another step toward utter dissolution. Under the cover of fine sounding words. Who knows?

          • peter the painter

            Hitler was a revolutionary, did not espouse any aristocratic virtues, other than an ersatz and kitsch version of romanticism. Hitler was a demented melange of the Jacobins, Marx and Darwinian eugenics. Just as the corona of the enlightenment is the twin-pronged fork of anti-biotics and nuclear physics.

          • Paddy Kilshamus

            The more I read of Hitler’s speeches and the National Socialist ideas the more I see that it was a movement against the general decline of the West. A reaction against the lies of the Enlightenment project of reason and democracy exemplified by America’s constitution and taken to its logical conclusion in Marxism and the Communist regime.It was as you say a melange of various ideas but it was also an organic growth of European politics, a limb which was amputated brutally in the name of that democracy which is the disguise for a corrupt plutocracy. That amputation has left a phantom limb which haunts the West in the form of stirring nationalist and racial movements.

  • FAKIA

    If I had a kid that behaved that way to his mom (step mom or not) that kid would find himself in need of a new place to stay. Being part of a cult is one thing. Being mean to family is another. There are limits to what behavior people should tolerate, even from family members.

  • MartinC

    Does Claire Stevens realise that her stepson is now an Apostate, which carries a mandatory death penalty in the muslim world?
    Conversion to Islam is not something you can take up and then discard if you decide you dont like it. It is extremely intolerant of anyone and everyone who disagrees with them. And they dont limit their intolerance to just complaining about it either.

  • LaurenceBoyce

    Great article which should be read by every idiot politician who still thinks that Islam is a fairy cake with a cherry on top.

  • http://twitter.com/WinstonCDN WinstonCDN

    Islam is toxic

  • Gwangi

    Well, that’s where being a wilfully blind ‘liberal’ gets you. If your stepson had had a swastika on his wall and an armband and copy of Mein Kamff on his bookshelf, I am sure you would have acted; yet, because his new friends had brown skins and a religion you turned a blind eye to his burgeoning fascism. Sadly predictable.

  • somewhereinthesouth

    Yep . Islam is intolerant about any one who doesn’t submit [ and is the only religion which expressly criticises other faiths and indeed authorises killing others who wont agree ]. Islam and the Koran doesn’t support lying… except of course [as the Koran makes clear] such lies can also be used to justify or further the spread of the religion and its influence on others. We in the west need to wake up. Islam is pernicious . Moreover its more aggressive proponents are using our tolerance to further its own agenda [ i.e. sharia law everywhere and the Islamification of the whole world ]. Lebanon until recently used to be a mainly a Christian country – it isn’t anymore…

    They wont be tolerant if they ever get political power and control in the west – just as another more recent dogma wasn’t: Nazisim. Islam is both a religion and a political ideology – it is not like Bhudism Judaism or Christianity. Democracy is an anathema to Islam since it implies other views are possible indeed even acceptable. Islamic apologists claim it to be a religion of peace but those who claim this have either never read the Koran or choose to ignore its viler texts which clearly support Jihad and the subjection of non believers. Why is it that wherever Muslims exist next to other religions there is trouble ? [ Here isa long list of trouble spots: Thailand, East Timor/Indonesia, Pakistan, Kashmir/India, Egypt, Algeria, Syria, Iraq, Nigeria etc].

    It is only relatively recently that the relentless expansion of this warlike religion /state was stopped. Its religiously inspired wars [ Jihad] began around 650 and continued more or less without stopping for 1000 years . It was successful in spreading Islam by force across what was then the Christian Middle East/Turkey {Anatolia] , Israel, much of S E Europe and also North Africa, Spain and Portugal , Persia [then Zoroastrian] , Pakistan etc … until 1683, when its spread was stopped outside the gates Vienna on Sept 11 1683 by the King of Poland. { NB The date September 11 is NO coincidence] .

    The only reason Islam did not continue to expand by war against the infield after this date was because the west was becoming stronger and Islamic leaders no longer had the capacity [as opposed to the desire] to wage war. For the time being they appeared to cooperate with the west and Christianity. That has now changed. When Muslims say the Koran preaches peace what they mean is this : there will be peace when all the world submits and Sharia law governs all . Wake up – all it takes is for people to do nothing [for whatever reason ] or our culture will be destroyed. Tolerance is not going to be the answer. It would not have defeated Hitler and it wont defeat Islam.

    • sebastian2

      This pretty well sums it up. Excellent post. But who will take note? Who will take it up? Of this, I despair.

  • 73witness

    The truth is that, extremism has no religion, so we can’t Judge Islam by the actions of some outcast persons or groups who claim their allegiance to Islam; and if this is our scale to judge religions and beliefs, I think history and the present is full of dark events that confirm the savagery and criminality of some non-Muslims from among Christians and Jews who committed crimes which Muslims wouldn’t think of.

    • sebastian2

      It seems that few, if any, have a monopoly of cruelty, error and brutal behaviour. We do not need to be reminded of this.

      Mohammedans, however, do need to be reminded of it – their own history, too, is replete with violence and mass murder. But try getting them to accept it and to take responsibility for it – to admit the error. To confess it in the masjids; to instruct it in the madrassas. Disappointingly, the RoP even today seems unable to do so and, moreover, threatens or intimidates those who challenge its own, flattering narrative and bring to the debate facts supporting this challenge.

      Mohammedans are peddling an imperial ideology that they claim is flawless, and that it is “blasphemy” to contradict. The penalties for intelligent and informed dissent are severe: often fatal. Cast intelligent doubt on their alleged “prophet” in particular, and madness follows. This is N Korean or Khmer Rouge type cultism and we should have none of it.

      Whatever dark equivalences you may draw are irrelevant since islam recognises none of them. It is studiously blind to its own many shortcomings.

      • 73witness

        Islam as a religion is completely innocent of such crimes but some Muslims who don’t abide by the Islamic instructions are not, this is because of the non-perfect nature of humans, I advise every one who would like to speak of Islam to read about It.

        • sebastian2

          I have read about it. Their own (your own?) so called prophet was guilty of deceit, mass murder, appropriation and distribution of stolen property and of manipulation of the “message” he was supposed to have received but which he, in all probablility, concocted.

          • 73witness

            When I speak about reading, I mean reading Quran and the words of the prophet that are written in Arabic, reading from any other source would be a mistake.

          • sebastian2

            So that means most Pakistanis and millions of others (most Indonesians for instance) are clueless about the qur’an’s “meaning” – they generally don’t speak arabic. That aside, if you think we’re going to swallow the notion that Al’lah (“the god” – quite probably a Qurayshi tribal lunar deity and nothing else) spoke contemporary or classical arabic via the Angel Gabriel then you must provide extraordinary evidence please for this extraordinary claim. And there is none. Let’s add too that the qur’an may originally have been orally transmitted (before it was compiled from various and often questionable sources) in something closer to Aramaic than the arabic you recommend. If so, any translation from that tongue may give a quite radical, in places, alternative reading.
            But even setting all this aside and taking your so called sacred texts as they are, they are incoherent and contradictory: later passages abrogating earlier ones; the satanic verses (of which you are in collective denial) entirely excused. Moreover, they are not the doctrines of a religion of peace. Instead they may more easily be seen as a manifesto or ideology for imperial domination – a domination that was cruelly and ruthlessly conducted.
            I think you should change your religion.

  • Terry Field

    “Over the next few months we saw the boy we knew become buried beneath a spiritual totalitarianism. The word Islam means submission. It allows you to love nothing else; to be a good Muslim, you must surrender yourself completely. Under the informal tutelage of his new friends, our boy eagerly took on the attitudes of his Muslim ‘brothers’ in place of his former personality.”

    Every British politician says this faith is fine, integrates, is no threat and we should welcome it.
    They must be combination of liars and madmen,

  • NoPasaran

    I think this shows western carousel-riding civilization what not transmitting a sufficiently robust and complete set of values leaves you with. The stepson was reaching for something he yearned for but could find nowhere at home or in the society he grew up, that wasn’t maligned by people who ironically call themselves “free thinkers.”

  • http://atlantarofters.blogspot.com/ The Sanity Inspector

    How is a person or a world unmade or unformed? First, by being deformed. And following the deforming is the collapsing. The tenuous balance is broken. Insanity is induced easily under the name of the higher sanity. Then the little candle that is in each head is blown out on the pretext that the great cosmic light can better be seen without it.– R. A. Lafferty

  • Wee Scitter

    I know nothing of this women or her husband, or their parenting techniques, however, one thing that comes across from this article is the number of times she keeps stressing how “liberal” and “progressive” her beliefs are. Has she looked in the mirror and thought that that was maybe the societal problem?

    Where is the nobility in the belief that the ultimate virtue is somehow to be tolerant of absolutely everything and anything, holding no firm principles or beliefs of your own other than to be pathetically submissive to others. Is it any wonder that in such a pathetic emasculated and effeminate submissive culture, that a red-blooded male wants somewhere to escape? The truth is that it isn’t Islam that is the “submissive” culture, rather that Islam makes a believer submit to a form of hyper-masculinity which in turn makes him less likely to be submissive to others..

  • Scheveningen

    It may be that the root of this problem – and it is a problem that a young person adopts this religion – is that ‘nice’ liberal, atheist parents raising their child to be ‘tolerant’ is not sufficient to give the latter a strong enough identity to live life to the full. They have raised on a diet of weak milk and offered a vision of life that is empty and meaningless. No wonder Islam stepped in to fill the void.

  • lisalake

    Notice how this bitch left out Christians? ….But please ask yourselves how you would feel if your child started
    spouting hate-filled bile against homosexuals, women, Jews, anyone in
    fact, who wasn’t a Muslim man? Every day we fought, struggled, wept and
    grieved for the boy. All we wanted was our son back….. in the end, she still wants her “progressive” democracy …

  • michaelwoodbridge

    It’s “our progressive democracy” which is the problem because these are not concepts that anyone would give their life for. Young people want a purpose in life and rootless hedonism isn’t it.

  • nicholas kenyon

    God liberals are such losers. Any normal English person with any self respect who’d brought their kids up correctly, when confronted with such deranged behaviour would immediately say: ‘You look like a prat dressed up like that – and your new friends are primitive medievalist nutters. Grow up or get out”. End of story

  • Rosalie Dann

    We have created a culture of ‘TOLERANCE’, but a very unequal one. This ideology is seen to be the ultimate in humanity and to disagree with anything is supposedly the equal of hating the person. Well, in lifestyle that is. It’s evidently okay to hate smoking (I am not a smoker) and to deride those who do smoke, to even be prejudiced against them but it’s still okay to call someone a ‘pansy’ because they don’t wish to have an alcoholic drink and to attempt to force them to have ‘just one’. Never mind that the woman may be pregnant or the person may be alcoholic or that they have a medical reason – or, heaven forbid, they JUST DON’T WANT ONE. Muslims may come in and complain about our country, abuse our women because they wear western clothes, object to our pig figurines in our windows and successfully demand they be removed and we must ‘tolerate their religious beliefs’ but it is totally okay to deride a person for their Christian faith, abuse them for ‘trying to force it down our throats’ all the while doing our level best to try to force them to OUR way of thinking and get them to see sense and deny God. As for Homosexuals, well if you disagree with their lifestyle that totally means that you HATE them with a passion and are a terrible person. It does not matter if you have friends with that lifestyle, or if you would never confront them, or if you believe that it is wrong but it is their choice – the mere fact that you disagree with it means you are a terrible, hateful person. I suppose by that reasoning if I have ever disagreed with my children (and I have , many times) if I have ever told them they must not do something or cannot hang out with their friends around the town at midnight and drink booze every weekend at the age of 12-16 years then I am a hater and a terrible person. Or if they were now . as adults, living in a drug lifestyle and using ‘P’ constantly and I told them it was dangerous and they shouldn’t do it (although I could no longer stop them) that too would make me a hateful, judgemental person. There must be a lot of evil people out there I think if this is the case.

  • David W.

    Happens a lot, in different ways. Neo-Nazi hate groups, pseudo-religious fanatics, Scientologists, Hell, even Republicans have acted like this before. Be always vigilant for the absolutists, the wild eyed fanatics, regardless of their pursuasion.

  • Call-in

    “Our boy had never shown any interest in religion before he found Islam at 16. We’re atheists, and we raised him to be tolerant of all faiths” ……. and THERE lies the problem. Perhaps if the parents had instilled from an early age the LOVE of God in the child, there would have been no need for him to look to a ‘gang’ type religion.

  • Lydia Robinson

    The trouble is that so many “liberal atheists” have got into bed with radical Islam only for it to bite them very hard on the a**. It’s like the story of the frog being carried across the river by the scorpion who then lashes out and kills the frog because that is the scorpion’s nature. If you get too close to a scorpion, you get the lash of its tail.

  • Lin Alb

    Parents Must start informing teens about the THREATS of
    “”the foreign facist govt of islam”
    and
    there are Lots clearly Stated in the quran
    make ‘the foreign govt of islam ” … Defunct in all schools for starters
    Parents Must start meeting and intensely organizing in our communities
    and get Facts of islam , out to our neighborhoods, community organizations, churches, hand them out on streets, to union organizations, Patriotic organizations, to schools, seniors , businesses ,
    work towards Furthering OUR ENTITLEMENT to live with out islam
    Loudly speak out For Our ENTITLEMENT

  • Logan Hartanian

    This is precisely, why some radical Muslims are recruiting atheists. Not all, but some atheists are at once, prone to extremism, and their Muslims recruiters know this. There is an ethic, in Iraq, very strongly rooted in the “society” and it involves putting the foreign fighter into the vbied. We can not comprehend this in the West, but we do need to watch out for it. As for atheists, I suppose if you are not careful, those unanswered spiritual questions, may be answered for others, if you do not address them for youth. The worlds children have been sucked up into a cult, for the purpose of war, and we question our own failings. It’s a good reaction. Now how about justice on those who abuse psychology and religion, for their own personal greed?

  • Ash Berger

    One thing I’ve noticed recently – hostile ideologues love the word “reform”. It might actually be their favorite word.

  • Iman Samad

    I think you should be careful with getting mixed up between radical Islam and the normal, peaceful religion that most know so little about. I completely agree that your son’s conversion was a cause of concern, because it seems to me like he was leaning towards complete radical Islam- such as terrorists follow. This is 99 per cent of the Islam that is being shown on the news, and as a Muslim myself I can assure you that the extremist views your son had about people are not what Islam teaches. I can safely say that if I ever met someone with those sorts of opinions I would immediately loathe them and their views, sadly for most Muslims they are hated worldwide because the news coverage reports them as ‘Extremists’ and ‘terrorists’. I know I am speaking for most Muslims when I say I am tired of everyone assuming that Islam is not a peaceful religion, that it is an oppressing religion, that it doesn’t give women their rights, that it hates any non-Muslims. It does not. Your son’s conversion was not into Islam, it was into the stereotype of Islam, the ‘terrorist Islam’. He is not a representative of Muslims, neither are his views based on what Islam teaches. It’s very easy to manipulate the teachings of Islam into something terrible, to listen to the news coverage of ISIS and assume every Muslim supports them, but I want you to realize and understand that there is a big difference between the loving, peaceful, original religion of Islam and the manipulative, disgusting, hatred-filled religion of ‘Radical Islam’ that your son seemed to follow. All I ask is that you accept the difference between the two and understand that the Islam I, and many others around the world follow, is beautiful and peaceful.

  • Vivian Li

    I have no sympathy for this weak woman. She should have stood her ground more firmly, and punished her step-son like he deserved. Part of the reason psychopathic murderers and hate-mongers grow up to be who they are is because their parents let them, or at least didn’t care about it. If I had been the mother, I would have smacked that self-righteous, ungrateful little bastard over the head, and if he continued with this hateful “religion” that is Islam, I would have promptly disowned him and kicked him out of my home. My own biological child or not, a slap on the wrist won’t do for nutcases such as the son. Parents need to toughen up and not cower at the feet of their sociopathic children (White parents especially).

  • LordInit

    The problem isn’t so much religion as the actual VALUES of a religion or culture. Here in the West Judaeo-Christian values are ones based on FREEDOM of thought and expression as well as human DIGNITY AND RESPECT let alone love and compassion. Many atheists argue that Christians have committed many atrocities and murders back in the heyday of the Middle Ages but they apparently don’t know that these atrocities were based on politics more so than any actual Christian teachings since Christ obviously taught PEACE. It just so happened that political forces from the Roman government to later Romanized lords and rulers HIJACKED Christianity to further their agendas. Unfortunately despite the claims of many Muslims and their leftists apologists the same CANNOT be said about Islam since the very supremacist and totalitarian values are actually TAUGHT in the holy texts of Islam– Quran and Hadith. And of course ALL of the genocides of the 20th century were committed by atheists secularists i.e. socialist and/or communists regimes. Again, this is a matter of cultural VALUES.

  • C. D. Carney

    Disgusting. At least you either fixed him or he came away from that by himself, either way you have more patience than a saint, oops, you don’t believe in those either, I’m sure… I’da booted his @$$ straight to the anti-paradise, it’s called the Middle-East. He could have a 1 way ticket to random desert hovel #3 or leave his stupidity at the door…

  • The Emperor

    “it’s nice to feel that one is liberal about Islam. But the lesson I’ve
    learnt is that we’re going to have to fight for our progressive
    democracy, because although you may tolerate Islam, Islam might not
    tolerate you. When it lives in your house, eats your food, sleeps under
    your roof, enjoys all the comforts you provide, all the while despising
    you, then you will be forced to make a choice.”

    Well too many liberals just think what’s important is how they feeeel about a subject. At the risk of sounding nitpicky here, I did notice that the author cited the vile hatred coming from her son aimed at homosexuals, women, and Jews, and how that made her and her husband (liberal atheists) very uncomfortable, however I have no doubt that the stepson was also hateful toward Christians, and yet that particular group is not mentioned. Was the author not as disturbed by that as she was the intolerance toward the other groups she mentioned? Or did the son simply have more vitriol against those other groups? I don’t know. I just find it interesting that so many “liberal atheists” do exactly what she and her husband did: tried to “feel good” about being tolerant of Islam. I noticed that Christopher Hitchens confronted these people at the 2007 Freedom From Religion Foundation meeting. I’ve posted this before and it can be seen on you tube: when Hitchens brings up the need for atheists to fight the jihad against Islam, he’s met with passive resistance from the crowd and quickly “Hitchslaps” them mercilessly. Ironic how those liberal atheists thought it was hilarious whenever Hitchens slammed the Christians but when he did it to the Muslims all of a sudden they were squirming uncomfortably in their chairs and silent much of the time. And of course, we have our own Bill Maher and Sam Harris recently getting confronted by Ben Affleck who needs to show how TOLERANT he is. Again, I cannot prove this but somehow if Maher and Harris had been bashing Catholics, Anglicans, or Evangelicals, I don’t think Ben Affleck would have been as quick to rush their defense.

    As for the author of this article, well I DO follow Jesus Christ so i will pray that your son finds his way out of Islam and into Jesus Christ. You may not like that either, but chances are pretty high that if he joins the Church Of England or the Roman Catholic Church, or the Presbyterian Church that he likely will NOT strap on a suicide vest to blow up a synagogue full of Jews, or a gay bar, or a feminist club. By the way, to all the haters out there who want to bash the Catholics, or the Anglicans or the Presbyterians: Have at it! You know you’re safe since it wasn’t any of us that attacked the Charlie Hebdo offices.

  • Douglas Tate

    Basically their son became a liberal. It’s the same thing….exactly.

  • TotallyPeeved

    Maybe because I’m not a brainless, Godless
    limey, I would have kicked his ass out the door one minute after he
    walked in wearing that pisslamic crap. I would not have tolerated his
    smug islamofacism for a nano second.

  • Douglas Wakeman

    It is quite possible that your son’s return to you is taqiyya – Muslim deceit. This is practiced against infidels to gain trust prior to eventual slaughter. I would not turn my back on him and only go to sleep in a locked room.

    • DenisetheCelt

      The Muzzies got that tactic from the Jews.

      • Douglas Wakeman

        Yeah, right. History is replete with examples of Jews insinuating themselves into society and once becoming numerous enough, chopping people’s heads off on the street. Moron.

  • justice more than you desire

    It sounds like the boy caught a glimpse of what it truly meant to be a Muslim and backed away from the commitment and self sacrifice. Fighting for Islam is often a substitute for practicing Islam, which over the decades is much more difficult, involving control of ones sensual urges. He could have matured into a real life of diligent study and practice but chose the “I am perfect already” excuse, which he knew you would accept.

    The same youthful fanaticism could accompany any ideology, even atheism. The revolutionaries of all societies and all times and places are usually young idealistic men with no experience of the difficulties of truly attaining and sustaining ones ideals. Every generation experiences the fanaticism of their children.

    The solution is not to have no ideals but to mature into a long term project of working towards those ideals. This means first moving past childish fanaticism.

  • danstrom

    The more tolerant and considerate you are to them, the more cruel they will be to you when they’ve taken over your country and are torturing you into converting.

  • pluck npick

    For England, and other Eruopean Countries it is too late. I am sad, but I am glad that America has awoken…

  • ogre12

    turn to Christ which can be somewhat painful but great experience and take it from there. Christ will change what is wrong through your concerted prayers. I works I have already done it in my own situations.

  • Beer Patzer

    I would say “Don’t blame the student, blame the teacher”. Or in your case, “Don’t blame the child, blame the parents”. And yes, a step-parent, despite the popular believe is STILL a parent!

    It’s YOUR fault, and trying to difuse it by posting articles such as this is a futile attempt at avoiding the MORAL BLAME!

  • Daniel

    The problem is not Islam per se. It is just a religion of newcomers that is filling the emptiness left behind by atheism, materialism and self gratification.
    Look at the Western society. It now has no soul. Time to return back home, to rediscover our Christian heritage and to share it with those who come from other parts of the world.

  • beattinda hoedeem

    What total fiction hahaha, cant believe people believe this ‘story’ is true.’We must protect our democracy’. Hahaha tooo funny!

  • mustafa
  • Mordhorst

    So you where a liberal atheist, and now you are a conservative atheist or what? And what does that even mean? You did tolerate Islam, and now you don’t tolerate Islam anymore? Wouldn’t not tolerating Islamism do? Or maybe Salafism or whatever?

    As an atheist I have no particular love for any of those idiotic religions, but apart from basic ideas about freedom which includes the freedom to be stupid I also know that I belong to a rather small minority on a global scale. How can I expect the religious majority to tolerate me if I am not ready to tolerate me?

    My choice would have been to kick my son out of my house btw.

    • Jo Bless

      One day you will be moslem. They will force it on you. Have fun with that

  • The Philosopher Queen

    The headline is clickbait. Nothing to do with the story.

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