Features

Sweden’s feminist foreign minister has dared to tell the truth about Saudi Arabia. What happens now concerns us all

Margot Wallström’s principled stand deserves wide support. Betrayal seems more likely

28 March 2015

9:00 AM

28 March 2015

9:00 AM

If the cries of ‘Je suis Charlie’ were sincere, the western world would be convulsed with worry and anger about the Wallström affair. It has all the ingredients for a clash-of-civilisations confrontation.

A few weeks ago Margot Wallström, the Swedish foreign minister, denounced the subjugation of women in Saudi Arabia. As the theocratic kingdom prevents women from travelling, conducting official business or marrying without the permission of male guardians, and as girls can be forced into child marriages where they are effectively raped by old men, she was telling no more than the truth. Wallström went on to condemn the Saudi courts for ordering that Raif Badawi receive ten years in prison and 1,000 lashes for setting up a website that championed secularism and free speech. These were ‘mediaeval methods’, she said, and a ‘cruel attempt to silence modern forms of expression’. And once again, who can argue with that?

The backlash followed the pattern set by Rushdie, the Danish cartoons and Hebdo. Saudi Arabia withdrew its ambassador and stopped issuing visas to Swedish businessmen. The United Arab Emirates joined it. The Organisation of Islamic Co-operation, which represents 56 Muslim-majority states, accused Sweden of failing to respect the world’s ‘rich and varied ethical standards’ — standards so rich and varied, apparently, they include the flogging of bloggers and encouragement of paedophiles. Meanwhile, the Gulf Co-operation Council condemned her ‘unaccept-able interference in the internal affairs of the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia’, and I wouldn’t bet against anti-Swedish riots following soon.

Yet there is no ‘Wallström affair’. Outside Sweden, the western media has barely covered the story, and Sweden’s EU allies have shown no inclination whatsoever to support her. A small Scandinavian nation faces sanctions, accusations of Islamophobia and maybe worse to come, and everyone stays silent. As so often, the scandal is that there isn’t a scandal.

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It is a sign of how upside-down modern politics has become that one assumes that a politician who defends freedom of speech and women’s rights in the Arab world must be some kind of muscular liberal, or neocon, or perhaps a supporter of one of Scandinavia’s new populist right-wing parties whose commitment to human rights is merely a cover for anti-Muslim hatred. But Margot Wallström is that modern rarity: a left-wing politician who goes where her principles take her.

She is foreign minister in Sweden’s weak coalition of Social Democrats and Greens, and took office promising a feminist foreign policy. She recognised Palestine in October last year — and, no, the Arab League and Organisation of Islamic Co-operation and Gulf Co-operation Council did not condemn her ‘unacceptable interference in the internal affairs of Israel’. I confess that her gesture struck me as counterproductive at the time. But after Benjamin Netanyahu ruled out a Palestinian state as he used every dirty trick he could think of to secure his re-election, she can claim with justice that history has vindicated her.

She moved on to the Saudi version of sharia law. Her criticism was not just rhetorical. She said that it was unethical for Sweden to continue with its military co-operation agreement with Saudi Arabia. In other words, she threatened Swedish arms companies’ ability to make money. Saudi Arabia’s denial of business visas to Swedes threatened to hurt other companies’ profits too. You might think of Swedes as upright social democrats, who have never let worries of appearing tedious stand in the way of their righteousness. But that has never been wholly true, and is certainly not true when there is money at stake.

Sweden is the world’s 12th largest arms exporter — quite an achievement for a country of just nine million people. Its exports to Saudi Arabia total $1.3 billion. Business leaders and civil servants are also aware that other Muslim-majority countries may follow Saudi Arabia’s lead. During the ‘cartoon crisis’ — a phrase I still can’t write without snorting with incredulity — Danish companies faced global attacks and the French supermarket chain Carrefour took Danish goods off the shelves to appease Muslim customers. A co-ordinated campaign by Muslim nations against Sweden is not a fanciful notion. There is talk that Sweden may lose its chance to gain a seat on the UN Security Council in 2017 because of Wallström.

To put it as mildly as I can, the Swedish establishment has gone wild. Thirty chief executives signed a letter saying that breaking the arms trade agreement ‘would jeopardise Sweden’s reputation as a trade and co-operation partner’. No less a figure than His Majesty King Carl XVI Gustaf himself hauled Wallström in at the weekend to tell her that he wanted a compromise. Saudi Arabia has successfully turned criticism of its brutal version of Islam into an attack on all Muslims, regardless of whether they are Wahhabis or not, and Wallström and her colleagues are clearly unnerved by accusations of Islamophobia. The signs are that she will fold under the pressure, particularly when the rest of liberal Europe shows no interest in supporting her.

Sins of omission are as telling as sins of commission. The Wallström non-affair tells us three things. It is easier to instruct small countries such as Sweden and Israel on what they can and cannot do than America, China or a Saudi Arabia that can call on global Muslim support when criticised. Second, a Europe that is getting older and poorer is starting to find that moral stands in foreign policy are luxuries it can no longer afford. Saudi Arabia has been confident throughout that Sweden needs its money more than it needs Swedish imports.

Finally, and most revealingly in my opinion, the non-affair shows us that the rights of women always come last. To be sure, there are Twitter storms about sexist men and media feeding frenzies whenever a public figure uses ‘inappropriate language’. But when a politician tries to campaign for the rights of women suffering under a brutally misogynistic clerical culture she isn’t cheered on but met with an embarrassed and hugely revealing silence.

 

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Show comments
  • Chris de Boer

    Thanks for this message. It shows what europe is coming to.
    If the people give in to tyranny, it is not merely freedom at stake. Darkness creeps in. europe is going still faster on its way into darkness.

  • http://www.ophiuchuscube.com/ Hendrik

    Time to build a wall around Europe and kick out all islamic elements. Look at the Middle East .. nothing but rot comes out of there. We deserve better – and our own European women deserve an awful lot better – and our European women deserve our protection.

    • Kristian vonBengtson

      Stop making this an islamic problem. Its a saudi problem . watch this -> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PzusSqcotDw

      • sebastian2

        Saudi Arabia is an islamic state that operates according to sharia. That is to say that all major decisions, laws and the enforcement of those laws must be sanctioned by the religious authorities. KSA also occupies the two “holy mosques” – though that state prefers conveniently to describe itself as guardian of them. It bankrolls the spread of wahabbism worldwide. It is the home of several notable islamic universities or colleges and sponsors overseas students to study in them. It is a key member of the Organisation of Islamic Co-operation. Saudi Arabia and islam (the state religion) are all but synonymous.

        Any “Saudi” problem is inevitably an islamic one. It can be nothing else since the one is identical in all practical and legal respects, to the other. That other “muslims” may disagree or act differently doesn’t make the Saudis any less mohammedan.

      • Doninwindsor

        Stop appeasing this awful ideology. It’s only a Saudi problem is it? Not a problem in Yemen or Pakistan or Bradford?

      • http://www.ophiuchuscube.com/ Hendrik

        I can make it an islamic problem all I want. YOU don’t tell me what to do .
        Everything in the Middle East is shit – and Saudi Arabia (an islamic country) is one of the worst countries in that region. I am happy they are soon going to be in full war with Iran.
        Why don’t you move there, if you think it is all so nice?

      • Niels Henriksen

        It IS a Saudi problem – AND an Islamic problem in general, since muslims are very much influenced by the hate speech and very conservative interpretations of the Quran and the Hadiths ( Wahabi Islam ) that are being spread big time from SA and its neighbours – mainly Qatar.

        See here for yourself:

        Channel 4 – Dispatches – watch and be ready for a shock, when you see what is really going on – and is allowed to go on by these religious leaders of the mosques and by the naive, ignorant and irresponsible politicians! – even in mainstream and supposedly moderate mosques around Britain – and probably elsewhere in Europe! – , as soon as all the oh-so-well meaning politicians, the ignorant PC media and the socalled “experts” have gone home after once again hearing all the usual right and positive feel-good announcements about peaceful coexistence, intercultural harmony and tolerance etc.:

        “Undercover Mosque” (2007)
        https://vimeo.com/19598947

        “Undercover Mosque – The Return” (2008)
        https://vimeo.com/85362804

    • Tomas Fransson

      Women whould have it a lot better whitout the kinds like u traying to proteckt them.

      • http://www.ophiuchuscube.com/ Hendrik

        Oh, have we met? Why don’t you piss off to Saudi Arabia – since you seem to like them so much.
        Looking at your English … let me guess: you’re probably from that region. Give my regards to ISIS when they gonna come’a knocking at your door.

        • Raffig gubbe

          “Thomas Fransson”, yes, that is a typical saudi-name. Of course. Listen, Hendrik, a person who does not agree with you is not automatically ISIS. Step 1.

          • http://www.ophiuchuscube.com/ Hendrik

            How do you know his screen name is his real name? Geez … how gullible.

          • Raffig gubbe

            I don´t. Of course. It probably isn´t, is your name “Hendrik”? I don´t know, I guess not. But what is more likely: that “Thomas Fransson” is a western guy with english as his second language, who does not agree with you, or a bloodthirsty ISIS-supporter immigrant who loves Saudi Arabia? Gullible? No, common sense. You are paranoid and aggressive, not a charming och constructive combination.

          • http://www.ophiuchuscube.com/ Hendrik

            I’ve been made to feel confused for years -I have been told I was wrong to want to hold on to “my” culture and values … the same values and culture that protect the freedoms and rights of women.
            But, now I am angry too … and even angrier with the people who allow the establishment of a culture that promotes hate and killing.
            And I won’t put up with the apologists for hate cults any more either.
            In my real life … I love and care, and I am loved and cared for too … I do not steal, rape, murder, nor do I adhere to an ideology that promotes these values. But I am bombarded by messages in the media that I am wrong.
            It is not nice when my 66 year old mother calls me to tell me she was again called a whore in the street … I leave it up to you to figure out why this happened.
            My apologies to you too, by the way. I get emotional / passionate sometimes.

          • Raffig gubbe

            I would not have spoken to you in that tone if I had met you in real life. Which made me think. Sometimes i miss my life (and brain) before internet. Well, well. Take care.

          • http://www.ophiuchuscube.com/ Hendrik

            Neither would I have. And I do miss pre-internet too sometimes.
            You take care too.

    • Kim Hemmingway

      I think she was saying that all women deserve freedom not that ‘our European’ women deserve protection. Silly man

      • http://www.ophiuchuscube.com/ Hendrik

        Kim, you”think”? or are you certain what she was saying?
        Make up your mind before you assume something, and make a fool of yourself again.

        • Kim Hemmingway

          I’m sorry you are such an angry young soul. I have no problems being an old fool.

          • http://www.ophiuchuscube.com/ Hendrik

            I’m not angry … I am fed up.
            And I respect women – and I think it is never ok for men to target women because they wear mini-skirts, or because the girls are not muslims. Actually I think it is never ok for men to attack a woman.
            I think it is not ok that women are considered 1/2 a witness when they’ve been raped.
            I believe in 100% equality for men and women in the law – and in the workplace – and for wages.
            I am against the ideology who thinks otherwise….
            And Kim .. I will fight to keep you safe from the people who want to submit you because you are a woman.

          • LucyEJWoods

            I share in your ‘fed up’ status! And your equality views are great, but, shouldn’t it be a very last, draconian resort for men to have to protect women? As, I’m pretty sure men have other things they need to do? They can’t be saving women all the time, so, shouldn’t women be able to protect themselves first and foremost? Then men have time to do whatever they want, and so do women, it’s not fair on either gender if one has to be protected by one, and the other is sanctioned to victim status…But it’s great to know you’re on board with the gender equality fight. Oh wait, is that what you meant, that you fight to protect equality, and the idea of equality, rather than “on behalf” of women? I get it! Carry on!

          • http://www.ophiuchuscube.com/ Hendrik

            Lucy,
            We should protect and fight for each other. Some women have forgotten that it IS okay to ask a man for help. (Some men have forgotten it IS okay to ask women for help too).

            I see women totally covered up in black cloths on the streets of Europe, and I am told it is “their choice” and I MUST respect that .. but I see the same women being stoned to death in the Middle East, or not allowed to drive, or not allowed to leave home alone.

            And I find it very difficult to express how I feel. I don’t know anymore how I am “allowed” to feel. I am frustrated.

            What I do know is that I prefer gender equality and safetly – the Western European model .. and I see it is under attack … from outside the West – and also from imported islam (muslims) …. And I am prepared to fight to keep women’s rights!

            Maybe I am old fashioned, but I DO keep a door open for women …

          • LucyEJWoods

            Good points. I lived in the Middle East for a while and suffered with this too. I met lots of great women who loved wearing long dresses and head scarves. Whether it was so they could feel more spiritual or form an identity or just to feel comfortable, some chose to dress this way, after wearing no head scarf, jeans and shirts, and this was from the progressive upper/middle classes. So that is tricky, but I think the best thing to do is just to empower women that is their choice, if a man (and other women are just as complicit in upholding these ideas) wants you to wear a short skirt and revealing clothes, or wants you to cover everything, women should be able to say, umm I think I’ll pick my own clothes. It is tricky, but I find this when it comes to Page 3/porn etc. there is nothing wrong with any sort of clothing, or any sort of sexual expression in and of itself, it just so happens these things, and lots of other mediums are manipulated to uphold the status quo, so everyone suffers and even more are confused, so it is very difficult to know when to be outraged and when not to be as it were…and then monothiesm in general is a mine field, the Bible alone says several times women are not equal…and then says they are…if I were supreme leader for the day I’d encourage gender studies/feminism/critical thinking to be introduced to classrooms (so people can choose if they are interested in the subjects, not indoctrinated), and then people can make their own choices, fully aware of the many ideas associated. It’s a minefield to single out just one patriarchal ideology (Islam) …and I just open doors for everyone 🙂

          • John

            This is not exactly politically correct, but I question how
            much something can be someone’s “choice” when they have been effectively brainwashed from birth by the only figures a person is hardwired to respect (their parents) to believe a certain thing and behave a certain way with the threat of eternal damnation hanging over them if they dissent.
            At that point is it really a choice, or is it in fact forced on them? Yes. I do believe that organised religions, particularly the Abrahamic ones, are the worst thing to have ever happened to the world.

            And to be honest, I hold the door open for ANYONE,
            regardless of gender, if they are walking close behind me. It feels rude to do otherwise.

          • Kim Hemmingway

            I agree on every count BUT I don’t believe fighting is the answer and, as a very old woman, I resent being described as ‘our’ women. Still makes us sound like chattel. ‘Us’ women are getting pretty good at speaking up for ourselves. By all means join the debate but violence, or the inciting of the same, isn’t the answer and it’s not nice to put someone down for not being able to write in perfect English. My Hungarian is appalling 😉

          • http://www.ophiuchuscube.com/ Hendrik

            My apologies for mis-using the term “our” women .. but I mean it in the same way as our country, our culture, our laws, our children, our future.
            I did not mean any disrespect to you, or any woman.
            But I do feel that in the wider world … women are good at speaking up for themselves, but if you look at the statistics of sexual abuse, rape, honour killings, forced marriages, etc in the world: then you also need men to help you fight. I am one of those men.
            (and my apologies for the language thing … and my Hungarian is also very bad)

          • Kim Hemmingway

            Chortle. Apology accepted although I think it should be to the person you lambasted. Your mother obviously brought you up well but I do think all mothers have to bear a modicum of responsibility for the world we find ourselves in. All too often we encourage our daughters to be stereotypical ‘princesses’ and call our sons ‘little man’. I’m not convinced this is healthy. Thankfully I did not. My daughter’s first fancy dress outfit was a spiderman costume (her choice) and she now heads up her not for profit organisation that operates in the third world, uses local produce and gives all profits to local NGOs and charities (she takes no salary). She is also one of of the most beautiful and feminine women in the world, but is not a slave to fashion or beauty products and it was all her choice. My son had more musical instruments than boy toys and was never referred to as ‘little man’. He is now an achomplished musician, a thoroughly lovely human being and runs his own web company where he persuades his clients to give a percentage of their profits to worthwhile causes. I wonder would they have been so altruistic and broad minded had they been brought up to believe that the ‘princess’ need only look beautiful and keep her nails in trim and that it was the ‘little man’s’ duty to grow up to be Bruce Willis?

          • http://www.ophiuchuscube.com/ Hendrik

            thanks … 🙂

          • http://www.ophiuchuscube.com/ Hendrik

            thanks … 🙂 You made me feel a lot better again.
            And what I was trying to say, was that exactly your attitude towards equality and happiness and, and, and … is what I feel I should fight for to keep.

          • Kim Hemmingway

            And never forget the pen is mightier than the sword…use it well. Take care.

    • Gerry O’Hagan

      From what do they need our protection?

      • http://www.ophiuchuscube.com/ Hendrik

        From the increasing influence of Saudi Arabian Wahhabism in Europe.

        And from this:
        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rotherham_child_sexual_exploitation_scandal

        • Christopher Mcfaul

          Clearly what we need is better education to eradicate stupidity, that my friend would make it a safer and better place for everyone.

          • http://www.ophiuchuscube.com/ Hendrik

            In an ideal world that would/should happen … but we now face direct problems.

          • Christopher Mcfaul

            There are multiple sides to this problem and by closing people off and limiting communication will only ever worsen situations. It not only means that we fail to understand other people, but those on the other side of that wall would not understand us either. We can see this happening already, the only reason for why there are tensions to these extents is because we are turning on each other. What I find the West is doing is scapegoating an entire culture that is basically as old as Christianity itself in order to distract us from other, and quite frankly, bigger problems. It is completely counter-productive and truly scary.

          • http://www.ophiuchuscube.com/ Hendrik

            The west is “scapegoating”? Do you really not read newspapers, or have you not met victims of islamic crimes?
            We invited people into the west – and now they blow up our underground, buses, trains, they rape white girls and women, they kill Jews …. and “we” are in any way to blame?
            Nah mate … this religion of peace crap … one of the biggest lies ever invented.

          • Niels Henriksen

            No, YOU need better education yourself! And we never asked for your and your naive and ignorant friends’ insane and irresponsible social full scale social experiment in the first place. The people was NEVER asked about it – never allowed any free, open and democratic debate.

            There was NEVER any democratic mandate for it – it was only possible via lies, propagande, politically correct and passive media and through immediate silencing or shaming of everyone, who dared to speak up against it, express concern about the very serious consequences or asked critical questions about the wisdom of this project.

        • Niels Henriksen

          This for example:

          Channel 4 – Dispatches – watch and be ready for a shock, when you see what is really going on – and is allowed to go on by the religious leaders of the mosques and by the naive, ignorant and irresponsible politicians! – even in mainstream and supposedly moderate mosques around Britain – and probably elsewhere in Europe! – , as soon as all the oh-so-well meaning politicians, the ignorant PC media and the socalled “experts” have gone home after one again hearing all the right and positive announcements about peaceful coexistence, intercultural harmony and tolerance etc.:

          “Undercover Mosque” (2007)
          https://vimeo.com/19598947

          “Undercover Mosque – The Return” (2008)
          https://vimeo.com/85362804

          • http://www.ophiuchuscube.com/ Hendrik

            I saw this and almost demolished my tv due to pure frustration and anger … what can I do? I almost want to do something violent … this is how frustrated I am … but I NEVER hurt a human being in my life .. I can tell you that I actually saved people’s lives (a person drowning, and half a dozen people having a heart attack, a man overdosing on sleeping pills, and the list goes on).

          • Niels Henriksen

            So sorry about that 😉

            If it helps you any, I almost did the same thing to my PC monitor ;o)

  • http://www.readmypoems.co.uk/ Ali

    How desperately depressing.

    • Arthur Ascii

      Articles like this are becoming all too common

      • Albert Zbingswiki

        There has to come a tipping point. Sooner, I think, rather than later. Sadly, appeasement remains the order of the day.

  • KilowattTyler

    Harriet Harman and Fawcett Society hypocrites take note: ‘This is what a feminist look like’

    • Emma

      What have you done today to further the cause of gender equality?

      • Uranus

        I manslammed into a girl and as she was running her mouth i manterrupted her and bropripriated everything she had to say. Then we got on the bus and I manspread my legs across two seats! Thank god the bus was empty, so she also found a seat, but not after she gave me a dirty look and called me a patriarchal misogynist. How nice of her to call me her king.

      • Mc

        I had no time left in my day for furthering gender equality after I checked my privilege, ticked off my micro-aggressions checklist, read a cultural appropriation tome, verified the location of my safe spaces, ensured I was up to date on intersectionality and paid my Social Justice Warriors dues.

      • KilowattTyler

        I am an ordinary person, of limited means and with no access to the levers of power.. I do not make sexist jokes, I do not make a nuisance of myself with women and on the (fortunately rare) occasions that I have come across women being threatened or attacked I have done something about it.

        Harriet Harman is a prominent politician who has devoted much of her career to equality issues. The Fawcett Society is a research and campaigning organisation of many years’ standing. The ‘This is what a feminist looks like’ T-shirts were produced by women working in an exceptionally nasty sweatshop and retailing at £45, were not sold at a price geared towards the bargain end of the clothing market. I would suggest that at best, there was a very serious failure of judgement here, and at worst, rank hypocrisy.

        Compare and contrast with Margot Wallstrom’s brave and principled stand. By being consistent to her principles, she has taken a serious professional (and let’s be frank, personal) risk in speaking out.

  • Liz Anderton

    As you say – how can this not be in the news? Because we are talking about women’s rights and freedoms and frankly they don’t count. It’s not news that millions of women are living in a form of apartheid but we never treat it as such. South Africa was sanctioned for years. Yet women around the world, and especially in the Middle East, suffer equal (if not greater) discrimination and violence on the basis of their gender than people (men??) in SA suffered on the grounds of race. While we continue to trade and pander to the mediaeval power structures that exist in Saudi and elsewhere we are condoning those systems of government. Question – if we stopped trading arms with the Middle East and compensated all the companies that lost business as a result – would that cost more or less than the war on terror?

    • http://www.ophiuchuscube.com/ Hendrik

      It would make it safer on the streets for women (eventually) …

    • Mc

      You’re expecting politicians and business people to have ethics. Just 2 small examples:
      the UK’s arms export regulations are specifically designed so that arms manufacturers can pretty much export to whoever they wish.
      Almost all wealth invested in the UK by individuals from outside the West is sourced via corruption. But the UK’s money laundering regulations do not address this, whatever the Regulator may claim to the contrary. Any wealth invested in the UK by Gulf rulers and other heads of state in their individual capacity is specifically exempt from any form of money laundering regulations – even thought their wealth is obviously looted.

    • greggf

      Inded Liz.
      Saudia Arabia’s attitude to women and its discrimination – religious aparthied – of other non-Muslims has been known for decades. And is worse than any in South Africa at any time.
      So why has it taken so long?
      Nothing to do with Islam I suppose……?

      • Jake Hamilton

        The word you’re looking for is “oil” or possibly “petroleum”. Also relevant is the fact that they tacitly form an anti-Iranian axis with Israel and the US. Islam (obviously..?) has very little to do with Western political hypocrisy regarding a strategic partner’s domestic oppression. They could stone women to death because the moon-rabbits told them the Cheese God demanded it, and the North Atlantic establishments would still politely avert their eyes and maintain a fixed smile.

        And if they stopped imprisoning dissidents, those establishments would no doubt be quite worried. The shakeup of a stable regime aligned with the US in the region, which otherwise doesn’t give a damn what the rest of the world does, is not something Western regimes would like to see in a state with the ability to economically blackmail any country on Earth single-handed.

        • Beauchard

          Saudi Arabia has been chopping off hands and stoning women since its inception in 1932. Ibn Saud was doing it even before that.
          After all, he was the leader of the Wahhabis. It is estimated that during his conquest of the Arabian peninsula that started in 1901, there were 40,000 public executions and 350,000 amputations.
          Yes they hated the Shia back then as well.
          Nothing was done about it, Not even when Persia was a strategic friend of the west and Saudi Arabia was a major financier of terrorist attacks on Israel.
          Of course western inaction for about 100 years is still all the result of “the fact that they tacitly form an anti-Iranian axis with Israel and the US”.
          I mean, history only began a few years ago and if the facts do not fit the prejudice, forget the facts.

          • ted markstein

            HIS
            TORY

            their lies
            our lies
            where lies
            .. the truth?

            buried
            ‘neath redaction
            reduction
            distraction
            and destruction

            In the
            grand scheme

            of things

            we are
            all
 ignored

            as it should be

    • Dudley Morris

      More like, most people in the media would rather swallow whale sperm than be accused of “Islamophobia”, a ridiculous term that has become equal to “racism” in the leftist hierarchy of oppression. And when race goes up against women, women will lose every time.

    • Genie Balham

      Absolutely Liz

  • Mike

    The clear truth of the matter now is that far too many muslims are far too obsessed with their religion to live in a civilised society.

    If you look on social media, tv shows etc, the muslims genuinely think their religion is perfect. They genuinly think their religion needs no reform, genuinely think that the laws laid down by their religion are perfect, and are utterly obsessed with it.

    Which is why they think the entire damn world should abide by their laws. Which is why 27% of them have sympathy with terrorists.

    Quite frankly, their obsession is unhealthy and uneducated. And we are paying the price for giving aslyum to so many.

    • http://www.ophiuchuscube.com/ Hendrik

      BBC morning news made me vomit in my coffee .. yet another item with the usual good-muslims about the young radicalised muslims moving to ISIS. Sick of hearing about it!

      • Infidelissima

        ISLAMONAUSEA

      • sebastian2

        I’ve just been reading about the measures we should, ought to, must, are under an obligation to, have a duty to ………………… take to ……… prevent innocent and vulnerable, harmless and peace-loving, dark-hearted creeps from joining ISIS.

        As far as I’m concerned, the more that b****r off to their blood soaked mohammedan desert the better. Let them go. Let them go in their thousands. I just do NOT want them back. Ever.

        Out ……… and stay ……. OUT.

    • sebastian2

      Yes you are correct. They genuinely think that. But here’s another statistic: I 100% genuinely think they are bonkers. And if our government thinks we’ll put up with this then – yet another statistic – they are 100% dangerously deluded.

      Vote Ukip and get our statistics back!!

  • Mc

    The likely outcome is that Wallstrom will be sacked sometime soon. And Sweden will continue to grant asylum to people who hate Western norms.

    • Erik

      Not at all. She’s one of the most respected politicians in Sweden and the general consensus is that it was the right decision to stop the arms trade. As for asylum seekers, they have nothing what so ever to do with this and it’s bullshit to suggest that they’d hate western norms.

      • Mc

        Do you really think that Sweden will risk its arms trade for the sake of a politician who upsets Sweden’s arms trade customers in the Middle East?

        Re asylum seekers, you clearly haven’t read the many polls conducted over the years, showing that a significant minority of Muslims across the world and in Europe that state do not value the most fundamental Western norms. If the polls said otherwise, I’d be happy to agree with you.

        • humpadumpa

          > will risk its arms trade for the sake of a politician

          Read the comment you answered to:
          > the general consensus is that it was the right decision

          If the general consensus agrees with the politician, they are not doing it “for the sake of a politician”. They are doing it for the sake of a politician and the general consensus. Quite different. Read the comment you are answering to next time. Thank you.

          Also, source criticism, please. You’re saying “the many polls conducted over the years”. What polls? I sure haven’t seen any such polls. If there are such polls, I want to see who have made them, where they are made, who have answered them and how many that have answered, before I can see them as “facts”, as you seem to do. And I suggest you to do the same. (Or no, I still wouldn’t take them as facts. Who the heck takes a freaking poll as a fact?)

          • Mc

            Very amusing.

            Who makes up the “general consensus”? I strongly doubt that the people (politicians, lobbyists, party donors, corporates) who hire and fire Swedish government ministers are part of that purported consensus.

            Regarding the polls (hint: Google is great for finding them), it is strange that you demand citations for the polls, but then say that you nevertheless wouldn’t believe the polls. In other words, you will only accept facts if they fit your world view. Clearly you are not residing in the rational realm.

          • humpadumpa

            > In other words, you will only accept facts if they fit your world view. Clearly you are not residing in the rational realm.

            A poll is far from being a fact, which was my point. It’s not strange at all that I requested (not demand) some kind of evidence to the statement being made, while saying that I would not completely believe in it. A poll is simply “some evidence”, not a complete truth. Some evidence is better than no evidence if you want to persuade a rational person (which I very much am, thank you).

          • Mc

            “even though the ones of it with more power make the final decisions.” Which is exactly my point

            “A poll is simply “some evidence”, not a complete truth.” The polls in question have been run over many years, meaning it is highly likely that they accurately reflect the poll participants’ views. Remember, there are two ways to test people’s views: 1. Polls for measuring what people claim to be their views 2. Observing people’s behavior. Events in the Muslim world confirm a convergence of the two, which demonstrates that the polls in question reflect the truth.

            If you’re having difficulty finding those polls, I’d suggest you speak to http://www.pewglobal.org

        • Christopher Mcfaul

          Yes, Sweden is genuinely considering quitting the arms trade with Saudi Arabia. As far as I know these debates were in the air before the change-over in government last time. Also, we have a different industry that will potentially fill in the gaps (somewhat anyway) after we stop trading with Saudi Arabia: renewable energy and the sciences/business revolving around that. It won’t actually screw up the Swedish finances as people seem to think, especially as arms trades with other countries will most likely continue.

          • Mc

            That sounds very hopeful, but I wouldn’t count my chickens yet. For a start, Sweden’s arms industry isn’t going to be happy about lost sales.
            The fundamental problem is that the arms trade is inherently a grubby business – sales to any country outside Western Europe and N America are automatically ethically questionable on an approximate level to Saudi Arabia. Is Sweden going to extend its ethical stance to those Third World countries as well, including for other, non-weapons products?

      • mohdanga
  • will91

    In an era when a social media campaign and a hashtag is the Western worlds favoured response to any domestic or foreign policy crisis. I’m with Mark Steyn #BringbackourBalls!

  • Mr Grumpy

    Hmmm, Sweden and its foreign policy ethics. Don’t mention the War… But I expect Nick can explain how that was all the fault of right-wing populists.

  • WTF

    There’s a raft of relatively harmless & bizarre religions around the world as demonstrated by this link

    http://www.oddee.com/item_90977.aspx

    but Islam stands alone in inspiring, promoting and demanding adherence to barbaric practices from the 6th century !

    • sebastian2

      A strange death-cult, demanding a respect it doesn’t deserve and damning the utter contempt it does.

    • arcadius

      The Pythagorean theorem is from the 5th c. B.C., that doesn’t make it wrong. I don’t like Islam either but not because of its age.

      • Eric Van Bezooijen

        The reason people include the age is because it will naturally reflect the barbaric morals of the time, just like the Bible.

    • Christopher Mcfaul

      The core Islamic texts do not promote these methods. It is the problem with institutionalised faith and the power of an authoritarian, oppressive state. In fact, we have had the same problems in the west, most notably in Catholicism where people have continuously gotten away with raping children (or does it not count when it is little boys?). It is power hungry people who are contorting a perfectly valid religion and abusing their positions, that is not right.

      • WTF

        Taken as a whole, the Koran and Hadith gives authoritarians the ammunition to create Jihadists and that is exactly what happens. As we found out in Christianity all those years ago, it takes time for people to dilute their religious beliefs and that was at a time when the power of the church was waning. Islam commands even more power today than at the beginning so people have no chance of diluting their Islamic faith in god. If you can’t get rid of the authoritarians in Islam then you have to get rid of the religion instead.

  • Margot

    All this was clear 20 – 30 – 40 years go when the West – and this country in particular – began prostituting itself to the oil-producers. Add in a love-in by the FO and the royal family and the only surprising thing is we didn’t flog off Princess Anne to a sheikh – a couple of thousand barrels? All that selling off of any morality has led to ISIS. ? Some sort of poetic justice. Only consolation is that the Saudis seem to be now realising that they’ve landed themselves in an impossible situation – they’ve bred the demon that’s now rebounding on them. You have to laugh…..if it weren’t for all the thousands of lives wasted/ruined along the way

    • willybach

      It was the US that did the prostituting – American guarantees of security for Saudi Arabia in exchange for Saudi oil. President Roosevelt in February 1945 met with King Ibn Saud and approved the US’s request to allow the U.S. air force to fly over and construct airfields in Saudi Arabia.

  • http://mks.smugmug.com/ Mundstrøm

    It’s only money – it’s actually unimportant compared to the value of freedom and equality. She should stand by her opinion and her actions. She might get fired, she might get scapegoated as responsible fo losing billions in exports, but if that means Sweden has to export less death and more life, I support it. Secondly, her courage needs to be repeated by more of these spineless politicians who only care about the support from industrial lobbyism and votes. None of them dare to make the career sacrifices required to actually make real changes and improvements to our lives.

  • Jim91

    “Rich and varied ethical standards” sounds just like the sort of relativistic pap routinely spouted by impeccably tolerant left wing multi-culturists here in Britain. This is what happens when mediaeval values are given equal respect as modern Western values, it makes it harder and harder to stand up and explain what exactly is wrong about about stoning women to death and throwing gay people off roof tops. But hey its their culture right.

    • sebastian2

      They are rich (oil) and they are varied. But they are also obnoxious and unwanted.

  • paulpaxman

    Why is she described in the headline as a “Feminist”? Would the writer use a similar term in describing, say, the American Secretary of State? “The Brass-Balled John Kerry Today Issued a Statement Condemning the Saudi’s Treatment of Women.” ???

    • Tomas Fransson

      Becose shes oppenly said the here poltik agenda in forigen affir is a femenism.

  • freddiethegreat

    Maybe part of the brouhaha (in Arabic) is because everyone
    is used to Sweden licking the boots of terrorists – from the huge arms,
    ballbearings and heavy water shipments to Nazi Germany to the PLO and ANC, the
    successors of Hitler.

  • sebastian2

    The religion of peace and tolerance has taken brutal steps to punish a country of peace and tolerance for upholding certain basic human rights and peaceful tolerances that perhaps contradict or challenge the religion of peace and tolerance.

    I hope I make myself clear. Not easy to do when dealing with the religion of peace and tolerance.

    • Erik

      Lol. It’s so brutal. Honestly, I think we can deal perfectly fine with them recalling their ambassador for a little while. And these are totalitarian regimes, they don’t speak on behalf of islam and the muslim community. There are a lot of muslims who are critical against those regimes as well.

      • sebastian2

        🙂 I’m sure. I just wish they’d make themselves more prominent so we could also support their criticisms. It would be encouraging to see an interfaith alliance of the civilised.

  • Freddythreepwood

    Makes you proud to be British. Or European. Or whatever the hell we are supposed to be these days. We haven’t sold our souls – they have been sold for us.

    • Bibliofilen

      Wallström makes me proud to be Swedish.

      • Freddythreepwood

        And so you should be. It is the cowardly rest of us who should hang our heads in shame.

      • Mc

        She is following in a fine tradition: Wallenberg was another great Swede

  • Roger Hudson

    Today the Sauds are bombing Yemen and blockading Aden, Britain must combat this horrible country, by force as well as with words, at least let a RN submarine sink a Saudi ship . The Sauds have allies we could target as well, kick all US forces out of the UK for a start.

    • Genie Balham

      No we should have nothing to do with either side – Saudi or iran. This is not our war

  • jim

    Too late for Sweden anyway.If Islam doesn’t bury ’em the harpies will.

  • FedUpIndian

    Unfortunate, but if any good comes out of this, it is that these foolish leftists might begin to realize that Western civ is not so bad and that the world is a brutal place where good intentions will not keep you alive. Heck, they may even realize that importing millions of people from these Islamic cultures and telling them that their culture is as good as any other might be suicidal.
    At that point, I woke up.

  • TrulyDisqusted

    She forgot the Golden Rule: Any criticism of anything Islamic is an attack on All Muslims.

    She won’t be Foreign Minister much longer… sometimes taking one in the head is more important than standing up for Human Rights, especially if you are Swedish.

    Saudi Arabia have publicly stated that the only Human Rights they recognise are those found in the Koran. – I guess this is what happens when Liberals try to force their childish ideals and poor understanding of reality onto others whom they clearly don’t understand.

    Remember the Golden Rule: Any criticism of anything Islamic is an attack on All Muslims.

    • https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=An4uDegHB8s Callipygian

      ‘Attack’ is a loaded term and we should not be afraid to call the bluff of those that use it. Those TRULY under attack — which is most of us not in the thrall of that dreadful ideology — should not feel that they are sacred cows for whom everything and anything must be sacrificed, including our own good.

      • TrulyDisqusted

        I agree with you, but in the west (at least) the pen is mightier than the sword.

        Face it, civilisation as we know it is fooked!

        • https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=An4uDegHB8s Callipygian

          Well, if it is — and it’s not over YET! — they are fooked too, the lousy fookers.

          • Genie Balham

            Yes – its not over yet…

  • Lancastrian_Oik

    Hang on a minute- Wallström “recognises” Palestine?

    Hamas are just as vile in their attitude towards gays, women and Jews as the Saudis. Even, or especially, if one engages in sophistry and imagines their fighting their Israeli neighbours as “anti-Zionism” that still doesn’t get them, or her, off the hook.

    You’re don’t get to pick and choose- you’re either for enlightenment values across the board, or you’re not.

    • albert pike

      Israel is enlightened forced to – you’ll try claiming they are being forced to kill Palestinians and steal their land next

  • Mohammed Salman

    I am a Saudi Muslim male and I like Ms. Margot. She is a courageous and principles woman who gives a priority of her principles over her “money” and “financial interests.” All free and decent men and women of all faiths and cultures should support her call. I like Ms. Margot. May God bless you! and keep it up please.

  • Mohammed Salman

    My name is Mohammed. I am a Saudi Muslim male and I like what Ms. Margot did. She is a courageous and principled woman who advances her values and principles over her “money” and “interests” which is a rare commodity these days. I also want to let you know that there are thousands of young Saudi men who are angry at our government about basic human rights violations and I think that if more and more good people, like Margot, speaks up, these pressures will build up and create some changes in the long term. I sincerely like Ms. Margot and applaud what she did. God bless you Margot and plz keep it up.

    • http://www.susanlishman.co.uk Susan Lishman

      I’m going to share what you’ve said, Mohammed, because western women are so angry about the treatment of your women. But we need to remember that there are good men in Saudi. How can we support courageous politicians like Ms. Margot? We will do our best for you and yours.

      • Hippograd

        because western women are so angry about the treatment of your women.

        Don’t worry: there’s a very simple way to turn Muslim men, particularly Saudis, into progressive feminist-supporting philogynists. Just let them immigrate into a so-called western nation. This applies to all men from the Third World, in fact. We know this is true because feminists support mass immigration from the Third World. And they wouldn’t do that if it harmed women, would they?

        Sweden: Rape Capital of the West

        Forty years after the Swedish parliament unanimously decided to change the formerly homogenous Sweden into a multicultural country, violent crime has increased by 300% and rapes by 1,472%. Sweden is now number two on the list of rape countries, surpassed only by Lesotho in Southern Africa.

        Sweden — Paradise for Women thanks to Muslim immigration

        Feminists are famous for their intelligence, honesty and ruthless logic, after all.

        • Annbatt

          Link shared in Blogger

        • hombre!

          As someone living in sweden I would like to inform your bigoted mind that Sweden being termed the rape capital of the west has entirely nothing to do with foreigners, immigrants and certainly not muslims, but a reputation stemmed from the questionable actions of scandinavian swedish men themselves. Educate yourself properly or experience the reality before you spew hate-enforcing stereotypes which only serve to undermine efforts on the part of progress. Those statistics do not in any way point to immigration as the root cause, rather an unfortunate coincidence. very few of those accused of rape are of foreign origin.

          • pp22pp

            I’ve just spent ten minutes educating myself about Norway and Denmark as their statistics are probably more reliable than those emanating from SIllistan aka Sweden. He’s right. You’re wrong, but you know that anyway. Sweden is a joke.

          • pp22pp

            I’ve just spent ten minutes educating myself about Norway and Denmark as their statistics are probably more reliable than those emanating from SIllistan aka Sweden. He’s right. You’re wrong, but you know that anyway. Sweden is a joke.

          • hombre!

            oh look! another right-wing-ill-informed non-resident ! You should read from Mr. Bengt Andersson below.

          • Niels Henriksen

            You can’t trust BRÅ’s reports at all – they are simply made up to camouflage the ugly truth, so that the naive, ignorant and irresponsible Swedish PC “elite” can go on living in its multi-culti fantasy for just a little bit longer – a full scale social experiment that they completely “forgot” to ask the Swedish people about, never allowed any serious and open democratic debate about, silenced every critique and every concerned voice or protester with very rude methods and thus never had any democratic mandate for in the first place – with very serious consequences in terms social unrest and instability crimes, a steep decline in mutual trust ( which was once among the highest in the world! ) and in social cohesion in general, endless demands from unintegratable, often criminal and respectless immigrants with barbaric clan cultures, intolerant, racist and women oppressing, gay and Jew hating religion and with conflicts and wars in their mental luggage, which they even believe they have the right to continue in the Swedish streets.

            And we have only just seen the beginning of Sweden’s sad deroute – it’s going to become far worse for this once so peaceful, friendly, safe, well organised and admirable country, because the Swedish politicians didn’t dare to live up their responsibility or were in denial, while the rapidly growing problems could still have been handled and solved,new rules and laws could have been passed to prevent things from getting worse, and sensible demands could have been made and strict limits put up for the tolerance of the Swedes of the behaviour and demands of their often uninvited “guests”.

            But it was “of course” far more important for these naive, ignorant and higly irresponsible politicians to – along with and assisted by the rest of the selfgood Swedish “elite” – go on with their insane project to be able to display their impressive haloes before the whole world at the very dear cost of their own people, instead of first and foremost taking care of the security, culture, survival and vital interests of the Swedish people, whom they had actually been elected to represent.

          • hombre!

            I do unfortunately agree with a majority of what you have put forward , from an objective point of view. But I believe these points do not exactly concern the question at hand. Swedens handling of the quality of its immigration is very questionable, key phrase here is “quality of immigration”, not quantity. It is true that hoping for smooth intergration between peoples with diametrically opposed life philosophies, one of which knows little or no compromise can be a long stretch. I also am very aware that a majority of swedes do question the quality of their immigration policies, but isnt that what people should take issue with? and not immigrants themselves? There are many said muslims who live by the swedish code of conduct and enforce its laws. Should their efforts be overlooked? Immigration has always been, europeans have moved in the past, and those with dark motives decimated and plundered other cultures while other europeans did the opposite, so too will other cultures move in the future, all that can be done is regulate the quality of movement, not restrict it. Afterall culture is nothing but the accumulation of traditions as times progress, so culture is not a stagnant thing and is innovated by the movement of people.

          • Niels Henriksen

            True, but unfortunately not nearly as many as you like to think ( far from the majority of them! ) – and 2nd and 3rd generation are often far more extreme in their islamic views and conduct.

            Well, if you look into you will see that Sweden has had a very tiny colonial past, and those Swedes that later migrated did NOT go to any predominantly islamic countries – on the contrary!

            Islamic countries also have a long history as colonial powers and an even longer track record than the Europeans when it comes to keeping and trading African slaves – and also 1 mio Europeans between ca. 1500 and 1830 AD! – but for some “mysterious” reason we never get to hear about or have films, documentaries or TV-series about those ordeals.

            Of course you can control the influx to suit the needs and the acceptable levels, as well as making serious demands
            and setting up sensible limits to the immigrants and their behaviour and respect of their host nation – and also the quality of their education and willingness and ability to integrate and accept norms, social conduct, culture, laws and democratic values etc.

            No, you are very wrong there – NOT all cultures are equally
            good and civilised – contrary to common naive PC beliefs 😉 – , so it does matter – A LOT! – who lives in a country, who comes and especially what they bring with them ( positive or negative? e.g. trouble / fanaticism / oppression of and negative attitudes towards women (“whores”) / hatred of infidels / endless demands and a constant state of offendness and playing the victim … ), which might pose a big danger for the already existing culture and ultimately for its survival and further NATURAL development.

            There are very good reasons why most islamic countries are poor and mentally and socially backward – unless
            they happen to sit on top of a huge oil and gas well, in which case only the first propety doesn’t apply. But don’t forget that they would never have been able to locate these energy sources, develop the necessary infrastucture, extract, produce, sell and distribute these products – and all the derived products! – without the aid of Western technology, science, know how, perseverance and willingness to work very hard and without huge Western investments (originally).

            Almost everyone in the islamic countries wants to go to the West for freedom, justice, prosperity and welfare etc., whereas only very few Westerners would ever dream of migrating to an islamic country for good, but only for short term and very well paid jobs – or to live in very unislamic luxury surroundings in Dubai and the likes, not among the real deal.

            Of course cultures change over time, but there is no point in destroying what is good and what has taken centuries to build up in just a matter of a few decades by letting millions of unintegratable, fanatical, respectless and demanding migrants in, as many of our Western politicians seem so determined on these years – even without any democratic mandate ever! But soon they will realise the hard way, how fatally wrong, irresponsible and naive they have all been – and their own peoples will punish them big time for their crimes against them and their culture.

            Yes, most of those rapes and lots of other serious crimes – in Sweden are indeed committed by certain groups of immigrants – no matter how BRÅ likes to rewrite the story ( ordinary Swedes know this only far too well, but are afraid to speak up against it – and are being persecuted big time by the media and the controlling PC “elite” – and even risk losing their jobs, friends and social status, if they do ). Hundreds upon hundreds of Swedes would still be alive today, if it wasn’t for that type of immigration and its very serious consequences.

          • Niels Henriksen

            Even Swedish socialdemocratic commentators are getting really worried about the very serious consequences now – and
            more and more voters agree with their views – many even openly, which you would never have seen only ten years ago.

            http://ledarsidorna.se/2015/03/vi-ar-framme-nu/

          • Robin

            U mad bro? Let’s just pretend you’re right.. In that case apparently there’s 87 % of the voters thinking we’re heading in the right direction.

          • Niels Henriksen

            Well, they are not being told the horrible truth, so how would they know? And they are being exposed to multi-culti propagande constantly on top of that and not being allowed to debate these problems openly for real.

            There are lot of voters within most of the parties, who are
            very unhappy about this situation – and about not being allowed to debate it openly without risking to lose their
            jobs, friends and social status by being stigmatised in the
            state supported PC media or even being hunted down by journalists and even violent and criminal leftist extremist groups in conspiracy with them.

            So 87 % if very far from the true picture, which is also very
            clear when you talk to ordinary Swedes privately – they are fed up beyond belief ( in S, M, FP, KD & C ). The real problem is that thse things can’t be debated openly in Sweden without risk, and that these people have nowhere else to to go but SD – no-one who ever listens to and is truly concerned about the massive problems with exploding crime rates in the worst categories, the feeling of insecurity in their own streets in growing parts of the Swedish cities and towns and their justitified worries about the rapid worsening of these problems and the very hostile, disrespectful and intolerant attitudes among certain groups of immigrants.

            The naive and ignorant politicians, the oh-so-saved journalists and the PC “elite” never live or work among these very serious problems themselves for some reason, and they wouldn’t even dream of doing it, as we have seen demonstrated several times ( via hidden cameras or when a state department was going to be moved to a culturally “enriched” area recently, which resulted in big protest – of course with all sorts of other fanciful excuses but the true reason 😉 )

            If there was a referendum about the mass immigration
            of difficult and unintegratable people from non-Western cultures into Sweden ( should the policy be tightened considerably or not with more serious demands and limits to the behaviour, lack of respect for Swedish culture, laws and democracy etc. and endless demands from immigrants / refugees? ) – as well as a free and open democratic debate about these questions in the Swedish media prior to such a referendum, what do you think the result would be? 😉

            My guess is that Swedes despite several decades of multi-culti propaganda and very little serious debate about these issues would behave more or less like most other populations around W. Europe, where these things have been measured for several years. So the result would be something like 70-75 % in favour of such a proposal and 15-20 % against it.

            The Swedish politicians have never had the slightest shadow of a democratic mandate for their insane and completely irresponsible full scale social experiment, and more and more Swedes are slowly beginning to realise what these fools have been up to and have been doing to their once so admirable and safe country, which is now going faster and faster down the drain – long since past the point of no return.

            So those 87 % of yours is saying NOTHING about the true picture – it’s just a straw that your are desperately clinging to 😉

          • Robin

            After such a long post it almost feels a bit rude to say that every word you’ve written is wrong 🙂

            Anyways.. Now I’m just picking one topic of all the topics in your message.. PC media. The problem with all right wing statements about media being “PC media” is that it is only PC media when they prove right wing parties/politicians/fans to be wrong/racist/stupid etc. It’s ridiculous when these morons are proved to have made racist statements and want to make it sound like a newspaper is a fucking tattle-tail PC-institution for telling the world what’s going on.

          • Niels Henriksen

            Nonsense – that is not what is indicated by the term PC at all. You really need to get your facts straight. This has absolutely nothing to do with racism, nazism or xenophobia at all, but you are so brainwashed by those media who label everyone, who dares to protest or ask critical questions about these matters in public, and by the very same politicians and their culture relatistic propaganda – a la every culture and every religion is equally good, and everyone, no matter how badly they behave, make endless demands about Sweden adapting to their midieval clan norms and intolerant religion or are unable or even unwilling to integrate and accept Swedish & Western culture, values, norms, laws and democracy etc. – , is welcome to come to Sweden without any serious limitations, no matter the very serious consequences for Sweden and the poor ethnic Swedes, that you are completely blind and deaf to what is really going on there.

            I know a lot of ordinary Swedes – including many who vote for those parties, I mentioned ( so not SD people! ) – , and they are ALL privately telling me the exact same story – which is very different from the official “truth” – a story that they don’t dare to tell in public about how fed up they are with all this ridiculous propaganda, endless lies and the desperate attempts to hide camouflage or even hide the ugly truth in these areas by the state subsidised media in Sweden and about the totally irresponsible and demandless immigration policy that is being conducted by all their traditional politicians on both sides, since they are of course able to see a very different reality with sky rocketing crime rates, violence, threats and constant provocations from certain groups of people just outside their own windows, in the streets and in the schools every single day. Some have even been forced to move now in desperation, frustration and fear in several cases, and many more will no doubt follow before long – just take a closer look at the horrible situation in many parts Malmö, Sweden’s 3rd largest city!

            But naive and ignorant people like you simply don’t want to see the horrible truth, because that would be admitting that you and your selfgood and halo polishing gang of world savers – at the very costly expense of others in every sense of the word – have been deadly wrong all along – even sacrifising the security and comfort of your own people in your deeply irresponsible experiments with the once so admirable Swedish society, culture and nation. In just a few decades from now there will be close to nothing left of it in any recogniseable form. It’s already sliding faster and faster down the slope now towards big conflicts and a possible civil war, and all the signs are clear for anyone to see who dares to open his / her eyes and think for him- or herself.

          • pp22pp

            No, but I have had the misfortune to have to deal with Sillistanis a lot in my professional life.

          • Onii

            Its not only that, the term rape in swedish law is so different from every other countrys definition. And adding to that people in sweden dare report rape, as it seen as something wrong and not something shamefull for the vicitm. The unrecorded rape cases in other countrys are far higher then in sweden.
            http://www.ipsnews.net/2011/02/rape-as-sweden-redefines-it-2/
            http://rt.com/uk/206503-sex-crimes-unreported-police/

          • Niels Henriksen

            Why on earth should ethnic Swedish men all of a sudden
            have started raping Swedish women at a much higher rate in the span of just a few decades?

            It simply doesnt’ make any sense at all!

            But do check out who the victims are ( their ethnicity ), and who they are not, and that should tell you a good deal about what is really going on behind BRÅ’s highly camouflaged numbers. And do keep in mind the very demeaning, oppresive, midieval clan norms and the very hateful cultural and religious views of women in many of the immigrant cultures. And then you will come much closer to the real answer.

            This Finish study comes much closer to the horrible truth, as does similar open research in Denmark & Norway:

            https://meritwager.wordpress.com/2015/03/25/finland-den-harda-sanningen-om-valdtakter-karu-totuus-raiskauksista/

          • http://www.ophiuchuscube.com/ Hendrik

            Look at the horrible grooming, and rape of white underage girls by muslim Pakistani men in Britain … especially Rotherham, and Oxford. It happened on an industrial scale! Disgusting!!!!

          • undisputed truth

            oh yes while the grooming of young boys by a massive paedophile ring established by politicians and other powerful middle-aged/older members of the white english elite in 1960s/70s/80s England was not on an industrial scale or disgusting at all………..

          • http://www.ophiuchuscube.com/ Hendrik

            Also disgusting! … but does that mean we should import more people who take their morals from that mohammed guy – you know the one who “married” a 9 year old girl and consummated the marriage too?
            At least we do something about these crimes in the West … in countries like Afghanistan, Saudi Arabia, Syria, Iraq,Yemen, etc, etc it is still allowed and promoted for middle aged men to marry underage girls.

          • David Richardson

            I suspect that standards in 7th-century Europe, let alone 19th-century England, were just as bad. And the Met has apparently been protecting present-day powerful white males too.

          • Robin

            You seem to be the kind of guy who think he knows a few things about moral.. I have an idea; why don’t you share your knowledge of moral with all the Mohammeds you claim to be immoral rape monsters?
            Instead of being a racist dick with a fucking keypad I mean.

          • Niels Henriksen

            Yes, but you don’t see any normal British people condolling this disgusting practice, do you?

            They all deserve long punishments, if they are eventually found guilty – and no stone should be left unturned.

          • Arthur Ascii

            You’re missing the point. Of course pedophiles and rapists exist in all races. The point is that the Pakistani rape gangs target specifically young white girls believing them to be worthless because they are white.

            It is this anti-white racism, the scale and duration of it, and the political correctness that allows it to continue, which makes it such a monumental crime and sets it apart from those who target anyone, either individually or in groups.

          • neoLiberal

            I doubt it is anything to do with anti-white. More likely that young people, children, boys and girls, are impressionable and easily pressured.

          • Arthur Ascii

            You are wrong and there is plenty of evidence to back up my point. Apart from the reports into the events there are people who understand this sordid aspect of Pakistani culture better than any PC social worker: The rapists are all probably considered very good Muslims, praying and fasting in the daytime, then prowling and preying at night on girls they think of as barely human. I remember once writing a story on bounty hunters in Bradford, men who were capturing Asian girls and women who had fled to refuges and getting paid thousands of pounds by the families. In one taxi a young chap, born in Britain but of Kashmiri heritage. He had a tasbi ( Islamic rosary) hanging on the mirror. Yet he was a proud pimp. As we drove around I was reminded of the murderous morality of the anti-hero in the film Taxi Driver. He was furious about young Asian girls on the streets and wanted them to be kept indoors and he believed he was a good man because in his ‘business’ he only used white women, ‘cheap and easy will go with anyone’ he informed me, ‘not like us’. – Yasmin Alibhai-Brown

          • neoLiberal

            Opinion is not evidence.

          • Arthur Ascii

            Read the reports, the investigations carried out, and listen to what people within the Pakistani community have to say on it.

            If that doesn’t convince you I can only think that you’re mind is so firmly closed that you’re like an anorexic – unable to see what is so plainly obvious to everyone else.

          • neoLiberal

            I go on evidence, not opinions.

          • Arthur Ascii

            The evidence exists. If you choose to ignore it because it’s inconvenient or unpalatable then that’s up to you.

          • neoLiberal

            You can believe whatever evidence you like, of whatever quality or bias. Evidence has to be compelling. It’s not compelling enough.

          • Arthur Ascii

            It’s not my evidence. It’s the evidence of Professor Alex Jay. Perhaps you haven’t read the report. If you had, your denial is inexplicable.

          • neoLiberal

            I have read it. It doesn’t blame immigration, it blames culture and failures in governance at a local authority level.

          • Arthur Ascii

            Yes, the unassimilated culture of certain strains of Mirpuri Pakistani and Kasmiri men, and the culture of political correctness which allowed it to go on for so long. The culture of fear of being seen as racist for pointing out the cultural connections of the perpetrators.

          • neoLiberal

            Or more simply the culture of being in governance, of wanting to stay in a position of power, not rock the boat, etc.
            Funny how the culture of the rapists is a factor but not the culture of corruptive power. People use the phrase “Pakistani/Muslim taxi drivers”, but you never hear “White Yorkshire councilors”.

          • isabella

            Why don’t hindu men behave in this way?

          • neoLiberal

            Look, squirrel!

          • isabella

            No, you go on your marxist, liberal world view, facts don’t come into play.

          • neoLiberal

            I consider all the facts, not just the ones that favor implicit bias. Y’know, it is possible to hold two opposing views at once without the space time continuum collapsing.

          • isabella

            No ,they believe they are worthless because they are infidels, kaffir being white is a bonus as they looovvveee white women.

          • Hippograd

            Like Muslims, gays are an oppressed minority. And it’s not rape and not sexual abuse if an oppressed minority does it, according to pro-child progressive folk such as
            yourself, who place being anti-racist and anti-homophobic far, far above grubby mundane
            realities such as actual rape being committed in so-called “real life”.

          • neoLiberal

            And not forgetting all the white celebtards that are now being uncovered.

          • Niels Henriksen

            Yes, precisely – the PC media, the police and the politicians
            silenced this enourmous problem for several decades out of fear for being labeled as racists by the PC “elite”.

            And we have probably only seen the top of the iceberg so far – there are many other cities and towns with a similar ethnic profile – and cultural mentality among certain categories of
            their immigrants.

          • http://www.ophiuchuscube.com/ Hendrik

            Funny how Italian, Irish, Polish, German , China, etc, NEVER behave like the muslims do.

          • Jawad Lahlou

            You racist fool! You have no idea of what you’re talking about.

            Come on! Who created the more evil this past few centuries, Nazies weren’t muslims, the inquisition wasn’t muslim, Stalline wasn’t a muslim, it’s not muslims who obliterated native americans…and the list goes on and on.

            So before you start pointing fingers and reserving judgment because of race or religion, look at your own backyard.

            People are people. Look at us, I’m muslim and I’m not really fond of raping or that kind of behaviour, I don’t think it’s good for my karma. Does that mean that all muslims think like I do? Naaaa. Duh. Does that mean that my religion allows them to think like that? Naaa. Duh. That just mean that they’re ass holes… like you. At least, you have that in common. 🙂

          • T David

            So you don’t think it’s good for YOUR KARMA. Why aren’t you thinking: it’s not good for the life of THE RAPED WOMAN? It should not be about you, it should be about the women. That’s exactly the self-centred way of thinking that should be condoned.

          • Jawad Lahlou

            That was humorous. We can laugh with anything. Can’t we?!

            Gosh, you really think we’re monster. Don’t you?!

            That doesn’t mean I don’t condemn rape, of course I do.

          • uniqueone

            My kind of a guy! I am a Hindu, and I know you are 100% right This is wrong and that is what we should be talking about and nothing else!

          • Daisytoo

            Muslims weren’t allied w/the Nazis? Really?

          • Jawad Lahlou

            I would say that some muslims were ally with the Nazis. As did a lot of europeans from Musolini to Petain.

            But that certainly does not mean that all muslims were ally with the nazis, that ludacris. The proof is that our former king, Mohammed V was a just among the nation for protecting hebrews from nazis persecution. Look it up. And stop assuming that all muslims are evil. That’s backward and frankly, pretty stupid as much generalities are.

          • Niels Henriksen

            Precisely! 😉

          • neoLiberal

            White politicians and celebrities in the UK did much worse. You’re move.

          • uniqueone

            I am shocked as to how insensitive this topic has become! I can only say shame on us all!

          • Onii

            The number of reported rapes in this Nordic country has increased dramatically in recent years, especially after the Swedish Sexual Crimes Act was reformed in 2005. This does not, however, necessarily mean that the actual number of rapes has increased, according to analysts.

            http://www.ipsnews.net/2011/02/rape-as-sweden-redefines-it-2/

          • Niels Henriksen

            The rapid increase had started long before 2005 –
            how do you explain that then? 😉

            Yes, it does! – they are just trying to hide it.

          • William

            I hope you realize that there has been a lot of changes in the laws concerning rape in the last 10 years.

            In 2005, they reclassified a bunch of crimes then regarded as sexual abuse to become rape. This lead to an increase in the amount of rape cases being reported while it lead to a decrease in sexual abuse cases.

            In 2013, cases where the victim had acted with passivness were also reclassified as rape.

            In Sweden if you are raped by the same person every day for a year that will amount to 365 cases of rape instead of one. Since not all countries do it this way comparing Sweden to contries with other systems of rape reporting is unfair.

          • Niels Henriksen

            The rape statistics curve had begun to go up steeply several
            years before these rules where changed in Sweden, so you are completely wrong there – and obviously desperate to
            close your eyes to the real explanation, since it would
            mean the your ill-conceived and naive multi-culti project has been a total disaster for the ethnic Swedes and their once
            so peaceful, safe, tolerant and well managed society 😉

            So maybe we should start demonstrating and marching in honour of all the completely innocent Swedish victims for the insane and irresponsible ideas of the PC “elite” for a change? That would also save a lot on the electricity bill ;o)

          • El Cid

            What an interesting Nom de Blog: What sort of man are you, to so wilfully ignore what goes on around you daily, in the interests of your nonsensical”Multicultural, Diversified, Inclusive” ideology? Don’t you realise that the Barbarians ,far from being at the gate, are actually within the walls already?You are less a “Hombre” than my neighbours’ poor neuterd tomcat.Hide your head in shame, imbecile……

          • neoLiberal

            I wonder why no one has yet found evidence to prove correlation is causation…Probably because there isn’t any.

          • El Cid

            All over the civilised world in countries which have mistakenly offered Muslims the hand of friendship; First incrementalism, via Schools, Mosques, Etc.Etc. Then, subjugation mainly via rape and pimping out,of the country’s young and vulnerable women; then, legislation to make any criticism, or in fact, description of Muslim crimes as ” Islamophobic” or ‘Hate Crime”. Use the senses you were born with; It’s nothing less than invasion……

          • neoLiberal

            “Invasion” – You have a very loose (and no doubt personal) definition of “invasion”. I’m white and I see no evidence of an “invasion”. These are terrible incidents, but they are just that, isolated incidents that people like you try to correlate to fit in with your personal view of your environment.

          • Hippograd

            As someone living in sweden…

            As someone living in England, I’d like to draw your high-powered intellect to the behaviour of Muslim philogynists in the UK:

            There could be up to a million victims of child sexual exploitation
            in the UK, it is feared. Rotherham’s Labour MP Sarah Champion describes it as a “national disaster” and is demanding a taskforce to fight the “horror.” In an exclusive interview with the Daily Mirror the shaken MP has told how she ‘nearly lost her mind’ after victims turned to her for help – unable to trust the police or local council.

            http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/child-sex-abuse-gangs-could-5114029

            Muslim behave the same way in Sweden, which is why you have such world-beating rape statistics.

            Those statistics do not in any way point to immigration as the root cause, rather an unfortunate coincidence. very few of those accused of rape are of foreign origin.

            Well, they are in “reality”, but “reality” isn’t important, is it? By saying a thing isn’t so, we make it so.

          • isabella

            I read an article involving a rape in sweden and the perpetrators were called said to be danish citizens. It turned out they were somalian muslims that had asylum in denmark. But you keep protecting them. I hope you don’t have any daughters.

          • Niels Henriksen

            Completely false – you are desperately grasping for straws to cling on to.

        • Bengt Andersson

          Good “source”. Written by to racist scumbags to start with. Ingrid Carlqvist is a established foil-hat with nazi values. The site is a obscure try of looking like a legit investigating institution but is in fact just a facade for nazis trying to look serious and backed up with science. Which is not the case.

          Violent crimes perhaps has rised, i don’t know, which has nothing to do with immigration by the way. But not with 300%.. By far. Lol. Racists aren’t famous for being humble with their figures..

          However. The total counts of rapes have not really rised either. From my research in the area both the percentage of both violent crimes and rape has been standing quite “regular” since many decades back. According to “BRÅ” (Swedish Crime prevention institution).

          So stop your bullcrap Mr Hippocrit.

          • Shamal Aafreen

            The article was about Saudi behavior, way to turn it back to Sweden.

          • Hippograd

            The article is about the behaviour of Muslim males. Muslim males also live in Sweden. This is why Sweden has become such an interesting place for women. This also applies to the UK:

            In August Alexis Jay, a professor and former social worker, found that gangs of mainly Asian men had groomed, terrorised and abused 1,400 girls, some as young as 11, in Rotherham over a 16-year period. Jay said police often disbelieved the young girls when they contacted the forces
            about their experiences. There have also been concerns raised over the response by police in similar child exploitation cases that occurred in Rochdale, Barnsley and Doncaster.

            http://www.theguardian.com/society/2014/oct/15/rotherham-child-sexual-abuse-scandal-tip-iceberg-police-chief

            For “Asian men”, read “Pakistani Muslim men”, many of whom will have been on Hajj to Saudi Arabia, blessed homeland of the Prophet Muhammad (PBUH).

          • Hippograd

            Written by two racist scumbags to start with.

            Yes, yes, racist scumbags and liars. Just like the the neo-Nazi Nick Griffin when he said that there were Muslim rape-gangs at work in the north of England. Having vomited his disgusting lies, he was quite rightly put on trial for incitement to racial hatred by the woman-friendly British state, with the full support of progressives in the Guardian-reading community.

            And ten years later, what does the Guardian-reading community find in its paper-of-choice?

            In August Alexis Jay, a professor and former social worker, found that
            gangs of mainly Asian men had groomed, terrorised and abused 1,400 girls, some as young as 11, in Rotherham over a 16-year period. Jay said police often disbelieved the young girls when they contacted the forces about their experiences. There have also been concerns raised over the response by police in similar child exploitation cases that occurred in Rochdale, Barnsley and Doncaster.

            http://www.theguardian.com/society/2014/oct/15/rotherham-child-sexual-abuse-scandal-tip-iceberg-police-chief

            No, they didn’t “disbelieve” the girls. They didn’t want to seem “racist”, thanks to the hard work of decent, caring, honest pro-feminist progressive folk such as yourself. Keep up the good work against those racist scumbags who try and drag irrelevant facts and unimportant reality into the female-friendly rainbow society being forged in Sweden!

          • Thomasson

            @disqus_LQKzo33GiC:disqus
            I believe the rape rates in Sweden had not risen im the area’s ….round the polar circle …where Muslims are not living ..Far too cold for their dicks.

          • Thomasson

            @disqus_LQKzo33GiC:disqus
            I believe you are right. The rape percentages had not risen in Sweden …round the Polar circle …In Lapland. Muslims are not living their …It is far too cold for their loins. Who wants to get out in temperature of – 35* C just for a rape fun? You are frozen before you open your zip flyer.

        • Christopher Mcfaul

          The article you are citing was taken from a radical right-wing magazine which also preaches the ‘superiority of the Aryan race’. I am aware of the problem of growing intolerance of other cultures, particularly Muslims and Jews, however they still make out a significant minority and those who do not support them generally try very hard to inform those who are merely scared of what they do not know. It also needs to be pointed out that the absolute majority of Sweden’s citizens are fully aware that the statistics in this article is part of the right-wing propaganda strategy which is made up and convoluted to benefit that.

          I also want to point out that Margot Wallstrom is part of the majority that recognises that articles like the one above is complete rubbish, and she is genuinely making an effort to inform the Swedish people as well as the rest of Europe that we are happy to cooperate with Muslims, just not oppressive states like Saudi Arabia, and that is regardless of what religious/political standpoint they have at the core. I can only hope that she starts pointing out the problems of America’s influences as well because that would also be worth cheering on and supporting.

          • Hippograd

            a radical right-wing magazine…

            Oh no. But surely it’s “extreme right wing”? And everyone knows that the extreme right wing have no concern either for objective truth or for women. For example, when the neo-Nazi Nick Griffin said that there were Muslim rape-gangs at work in the north of England, he was quite rightly put on trial for incitement to racial hatred by the woman-friendly British state, with the full support of progressives in the Guardian-reading community.

            And ten years later, what does the Guardian-reading community find in its paper-of-choice?

            In August Alexis Jay, a professor and former social worker, found that gangs of mainly Asian men had groomed, terrorised and abused 1,400 girls, some as young as 11, in Rotherham over a 16-year period. Jay said police often disbelieved the young girls when they contacted the forces about their experiences. There have also been concerns raised over the response by police in similar child exploitation cases that occurred in Rochdale, Barnsley and Doncaster.

            http://www.theguardian.com/society/2014/oct/15/rotherham-child-sexual-abuse-scandal-tip-iceberg-police-chief

            No, they didn’t “disbelieve” the girls. They didn’t want to seem “racist”, thanks to the hard work of decent, caring, honest pro-feminist progressive folk such as yourself.

          • Marcussmod

            I notice no one from the Lib/Lab/Coins mentions Nick Griffins role in exposing child rape on an industrial scale.

          • Thomasson

            @Christopher Mcfaul I would like to ask you Christopher, how is the weather on Planet Venus? Or any other planet you are living on? It is a pity how uninformed you are. Or you try like all cultural-Marxists to deny reality and call it des-information? However, the information in the article is correct. It is backed by an arm long European links, articles and video’s (see YouTube on Sweden) who are reporting exactly the same.

          • Daisytoo

            Then read this, from your very own lords and masters at the BBC: Rotherham child abuse scandal: 1,400 children exploited, report finds http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-south-yorkshire-28939089

        • Edward Silha

          All reliable international sources agree that comparisons of rape statistics across countries is fraught with pitfalls because of different reporting requirements, counting procedures and legal definitions of rape. In addition culture has a large impact on the statistics.
          Saudi Arabia – 2.19 rapes per 100,000 population
          Why so low?
          Maybe because the victim can be sentenced to even harsher punishment than the assailant.
          A 19-year-old woman who was the victim of a violent gang rape in Saudi Arabia has been sentenced to 200 lashes and six months in jail after being found guilty of being “indecent” at the time of the attack because she was not accompanied by a male guardian. However, the men who raped her were given minor custodial sentences.
          Blaming the victim is quite common, even in western countries, but more so in eastern counties.

          • http://www.ophiuchuscube.com/ Hendrik

            Exactly! Doesn’t 1 Saudi Arabian woman need 4 male witnesses in a rape case? How do you think that affects the willingness to report rape? Doesn’t mean rapes happen less.
            And especially if a woman loses the case … she is tried for adultery … or worse.

          • Paul Pignon

            Four male or eight female witnesses according the written law I believe (which judges may or may not adhere to) as far as I have read. Doesn’t that say it all?

          • http://www.ophiuchuscube.com/ Hendrik

            It does – and that is why we should NEVER allow this awful ideology take foothold in the west

          • KJB007

            I’m afraid it already exists for the most part. All this ridiculousness about “over reported” rapes on campus. Rapes are reported falsely no more than false burglaries or any other crime. They are simply not taken seriously because even in this country–white men still run things, are paid more, etc. same side of the same coin.

          • Gordon Martin

            I agree KJ. But remember that the media “overplay” matters which will catch readers attention. The more “eyeballs” they get the more money they make. A “sick” aspect of capitalism. PS- I’m not a socialist (<;

          • grimer

            “They are simply not taken seriously because even in this country–white men still run things.”

            Wow. Full on racism.

          • Eugene Goostman

            It’s only racist if it unfairly targets a specific racial group.

            When it’s true, it isn’t racist.

            White men still run things, unless you can prove otherwise?

          • Kerry

            Perhaps ‘White men’ run things, because it is a white country?

          • Bec

            If you believe that the populations of western nations are exclusively caucasian then you are in for a shock.

          • Cyril Sneer

            Majority white are they not? Last time I checked there was a black man (half white/half black to be precise) currently running things in the America (a majority white country) and making a real balls up of it too.

          • Kerry

            I didn’t say ‘Exclusively’ Europe has always been ‘Majority’ white..It still is and it must remain so…

          • Eugene Goostman

            Are there any ‘white’ countries? I have never been to one and I’m on my fifth passport.

          • Demilade

            Latvia? Estonia?

          • Zootalaws

            “Immigration in Latvia has traditionally been from neighboring countries such as Russia but now migrants also come from other areas such as Latin America and Africa”

            There are protests about African immigration to Estonia, which would indicate there are non-whites in Estonia, too.

            I don’t think there’s anywhere in the world that is ethnically isolated any more.

          • Cyril Sneer

            Are there any black countries?

            Answer that and you will have the answer to your question.

            That is provided you compare each equally, I do, but you don’t because you’re a bigot.

          • Eugene Goostman

            “Are there any black countries?”

            Not that I’ve been to.

            And care to quote my bigotry? I’m interested in what a low bar you must set.

          • Feminister

            It’s not a male one.

          • woolfiesmiff

            “When it’s true, it isn’t racist.” Really? I think you may be on very dodgy grounds there

          • Eugene Goostman

            Of course it isn’t. Saying that the direction of a country is overwhelmingly determined by ‘old white guys’ isn’t racist if it is. It isn’t pejorative, it is descriptive.

            How should they be described, in a mixed-race environment? “Old non-coloured men’? Shall we aim for reverse racism and describe what they are not?

            Call a spade a fucking spade and stop being so damned politically precious.

          • The Masked Marvel

            Except in this case the fact that it’s a spade was presented as the problem. That is racism.

          • Eugene Goostman

            Only if you use the term ‘spade’ to refer to humans, rather than to refer to a tool.

            And that is very much an American term, something I am not.

            For me personally, it’s a digging implement I keep in the garden shed. But then, I’m not a racist.

          • The Masked Marvel

            Really? Then why did you use a term you say you don’t use?

          • Eugene Goostman

            Please, supply the quote where I said I don’t use the word ‘spade’.

            You can follow it with your apology.

          • The Masked Marvel

            Your reply to me immediately above implied that you don’t use the term to apply to anything other than a gardening implement. Actually, I think you may have misunderstood what I meant about how using the term was racist. In this case, I didn’t mean that the term “spade” itself, was racist, as in “black as the ace of spades”. Which is not what you did. I meant that it was racist for ‘grimer’ to say that the fact that white men still ran things was a problem. Your subsequent use of the phrase “call a spade a spade” was actually referring to calling them white men, which in itself is, of course, not racist. The fact that that phrase has racist connotations in America led to the confusion over my reply.

            This may or may not make sense at this late stage.

          • Eugene Goostman

            No, not a bit of sense.

          • Cyril Sneer

            Yes you are a racist as you have aptly displayed on here.

          • Eugene Goostman

            Care to supply a quote with that assertion?

          • isabella

            Don’t you have a life?

          • Eugene Goostman

            A very full one. Don’t you have a bunny to boil?

          • Rolo Tamasi

            It is racism to consider that the colour of skin is in any way relevant.

          • Eugene Goostman

            Is it?

            What if those determining the direction a country takes are overwhelmingly favouring their particular race?

            Is pointing that out racist, or are their actions racist?

            Was it racist to point out the actions of apartheid-era South Africa? If I pointed out that Boers were overwhelmingly white, would that have been racist? That was the criteria they used to implement their racist policies.

          • tb303

            To insinuate all members of a race are to blame for the action of a few members of that race, is without exception racist, it doesn’t just stop being rascist because they’re not a minority group, it’s very simple, language has to be used with care.

          • Eugene Goostman

            Right – so to condemn white South Africans for their apartheid policies is racist. Gotcha.

          • tb303

            Yes totally, if you’re saying all white africans are to blame, really is pretty clear, even in a democracy not everyone is to blame for the actions of their government.

          • Eugene Goostman

            Stick your politically correct bullshit up your arse.

            Whites were overwhelmingly to blame for apartheid. That isn’t racism, it’s a historical fact.

          • right1_left1

            Apartheid ungood (sic)
            Change from minority rule much worser (sic)

            Dutch-European immigrants provided the brains to build South Africa.
            White PC liberal jelly babies provided the lack of brains to apply a solution. .

            The consequences are writ large in Zimbabwe and South Africa is deteriorating nicely thank you very much.

            Look out for violence in Nigeria later this week.
            Jonathon will need plenty of good Luck.

          • A_Kill_Ease

            Doesn’t really matter anymore in today’s politically correct liberal mindset. If a former African or Arab countries economy and political structure fails, its always due to the former “whitey’s” country of imperialism and colonialism. Scapegoating of others for your woes, ills, problems and failures is the 21st century norm.

          • Sue Higgins

            the use of accusations of racism,anti-semitism and all the other isms is more and more being used to squash proper debate.I think this Swedish politician is brilliant,and in the face of such nasty opposition she is brave too.

          • tb303

            Now now getting all stroppy, racism is racism, you can say the majority of those to blame were white, you can say all of those to blame were white, you cannot say whites in general are to blame, that is racism, something abhorrent whoever it’s aimed at.

          • http://SilkRoadsandSiameseSmiles.com/ Dave Kalin

            Apartheid was three tiered with African “blacks” on the bottom. There were many non-Whites who benefitted from apartheid.

            Saudi Arabia is not White. They have an apartheid system there. Just ask the desert bedouin and the Shi’a out in the desert. They aren’t even allowed citizenship.

            Kuwait does the same thing.

            Ask the Baluchi how they feel about their fellow Brown brothers who treat them as second class citizens in Iran, Afghanistan and Pakistan.

            Let’s talk to the Kurds, the Tibetans, the Armenians, the Druze and several others in the Arab/Persian world who are living in apartheid hell.

            Oh….it’s not Whitey who is screwing them over so we don’t care about that.

            Idiots!

          • Zootalaws

            “There were many non-Whites who benefitted from apartheid.” at the grace and favor of the ruling white elite.

          • A_Kill_Ease

            Sorry but Arabs are Caucasians since they have the same origins as Europeans. It’s also important to note that Caucasians evolved in the Middle East (near the Caucasus, north of Iran).

            The ”Caucasians” include: Arabs, North African (Berbers), Iranians, Indian Subcontinental people, Europeans etc. The predominant racial type in all those areas is Caucasian. Even though all these Caucasian groups have some non-Caucasian admixture to some degree (including Europeans) they are still more genetically closer to each other than to non-Caucasians.

            For instance, brown-skinned Arabs are more genetically similar to blonde North Europeans than the Japanese are to Malaysians, and in fact, the racial divide between the North Asians (North Japanese, Korean, North Chinese) and Southern Asians (such as Malaysian, Thai, Filipino) is much much deeper than the one between Arabs and Europeans.

            In forensic science and anthropology, ”Caucasian” is used to describe a skeleton/skull type, rather than a skin color. You can have pale-skinned Caucasians and dark-skinned Caucasians. The skin color is the least important factor since skin color correlates with lattitude and doesn’t necessarily indicate a populations true racial origins.

          • Eugene Goostman

            If I said that – but I didn’t.

            What I did say was:

            Was it racist to point out the actions of apartheid-era South Africa?

            And:

            If I pointed out that Boers were overwhelmingly white, would that have been racist?

            Now if you think that I said “all white africans are to blame” you need SpecSavers.

            I said exactly what those two quotes say. Nothing more, nothing less.

            EDIT: I did also say “Whites were overwhelmingly to blame for apartheid.”, I don’t think I’m wrong, but feel free to discuss the point further.

          • Eric Shang

            I am a white South African that was young in those days and yes the government was to blame. You 100% correct in saying the government was to blame.

            I do take offence in you thinking because I am white and South African that I must be a racist. That somehow their views must be my views.

            I know many white South Africans who voted for the ANC when the first elections were held to get Mandela into power. Are they racist? They wanted change in the country as much as the next person not happy with apartheid but what you saying is that they racist just because they were white and must have been pro-apartheid.

          • Eugene Goostman

            “I do take offence in you thinking because I am white and South African that I must be a racist.”

            I would agree with you, if I said that.

            Maybe being young your comprehension needs work.

            FWIW, my son-in-law is South African. He’s not a racist. But he’s a realist, which is why they left SA and moved to NZ.

          • Cyril Sneer

            So all white SA’s are to blame because they’re born white?

          • Eugene Goostman

            Damn. You’ve swung three times and missed all three times – you’re out.

          • Shane Kennedy

            Recognising the colour of someone’s skin isn’t racism. Treating, or even thinking of them differently because of it, is.

          • http://SilkRoadsandSiameseSmiles.com/ Dave Kalin

            Reacting to someone based upon their color is, if nothing else, simply idiotic.

            White this, Black that, Arab this, Muslim that, Christian this, Iranian that…it’s all utter nonsense.

            I know people from all over the world and not a one of them fits a stereotype as bigots wish them to.

          • Shane Kennedy

            That is what many western women said before they married a muslim man. Then they get persuaded to visit the inlaws in the middle east and suddeny find that the goalposts have moved.

          • Anders Jackson

            No, it isn’t. It is when you make generalisations of a group and act according to those as it applies to all of that generalisated group, then you have racism. If you can show that your statments are supported by statistics and acutal facts, it isn’t racism, it is facts.

          • grimer

            So, black men would take rape more seriously than white men? How about Pakistani men, would they be keener on investigating rape than white men? What a load of codcrud.

          • Eugene Goostman

            You have made some great straw men to go and beat up.

            Are you winning?

          • skigal101

            And then there is Hilary Clinton who is for women’s rights and has accepted over 20 million funneled through the Clinton foundation from Saudi Arabia. This woman is capagning for president. Is this who the people want.better take a good look.

          • Eugene Goostman

            I think Clinton is only ‘for’ Clinton.

            Anything else is either fuel for her fire or has gotten in the way.

            Americans have the government they deserve. They could fix that, but it requires effort and sacrifice, neither of which I think they are capable of.

          • Sarka

            Not really, Of course, Hillary is a very ambitious career politician and not specialised in women’s issues, but during her tenure as Sec of State she promoted an awful lot of initiatives to improve the position of women world-wide.

          • Eugene Goostman

            Such as?

          • isabella

            Common sense is not his forte.

          • Anders Jackson

            What about read and understand what actually IS said/written before you start hammer on that keyboard or what device you use to enter your text? Making up argument and then apply them on the other isn’t a vaild argument technic. You might read up on fallacy argumentation.
            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fallacies

          • Johan Krüger Haglert

            You’re so totally not up to date with what “racist” mean in Sweden.

            Here it mean “Your opinion isn’t that of mine and you shouldn’t be allowed to spread it.”

            .. in all cases arguing any truth or facts whatsoever among any group of people.

            They are only supposed to be seen as individuals which make any trends and cultural difference insignificant.

          • Eugene Goostman

            That’s pretty much the way most of the world works when they throw out the ‘racist’ tag.

            It’s an easy throw-away. It doesn’t mean it’s racist, just that its a smear.

          • Cyril Sneer

            I despise people like you that play identity politics and exercise that same level of bigotry as those you’re apparently against.

            Just admit it, you hate white people and you need to seek help.

          • Eugene Goostman

            I’m white.

            And you despising me means about as much to me as the loss of the last shit I had.

          • Neverwas

            Sadly not only in Sweden. The “progressives” in the UK shout “racist” to shut down debate in the same way. (“Progressive” is the term they use instead of “socialist” so as not to remind people of the economic disasters under under past socialist governments. It’s 1984’s Newspeak.)

          • Johan Krüger Haglert

            What should happen is that all anti-immigrant voters should make sure to have lived in lots of EU countries and then there’s an election vote for the immigration restrictive party 🙂

          • Alana Ronald

            Pat Condell put out a great video about “progressives” on Youtube. Excellent as always

          • Anders Jackson

            No it isn’t.
            Racism is if one brings in racist arguments in a discussion, then one is called to been bringing in racist arguments, being a racist.
            The problem is the members and supporters of the rasist party SD (Sverigedemokraterna) have a very soft skin when it comes to taking critisism to their arguments. So when they loosing an argument or runned out of arguments, they fall in to a “don’t blame me” mode where it is everyone elses fault, and nothing is their faulst. That everyone that are against them are extreme communists, even the liberals, right party and christ democrathy party.
            We call that to putting on the “offercofta”, which would be “victim cardigan” in english. They put it on because it is comfortable and then claims “I’m not a racists, but…” and “Look they did that too…” and other “arguments” like that.

          • Johan Krüger Haglert

            I don’t see how the run out of arguments part is true.

            As for “being racist”, yeah, of course one it’s a racist argument to say Muslim or Somalis are bad immigrants. Since it’s based on a group of individuals. Or to say Romanian who aren’t citizens shouldn’t get well-fare here or free health-care or whatever.

            That’s part of the idea with the argument.

            To say “that’s racist” doesn’t make it false or irrelevant or nothing to consider or actually answer it at all though.

            And it wouldn’t be seen as a problem in other places (at large.)
            People would more likely just consider you an idiot if you said insurance systems should be allowed to be used by everyone even those who haven’t contributed to them if we make such a comparison.

            Simple real politics would say 4.5 million workers in Sweden can’t promise to bring a high standard of live to whomever wants it for nothing.

            Similarly that if you want to keep your society and let it have your values you shouldn’t tempt poor people from all over the world with well-fare promises even if they don’t share the same values because then some others will show up as well.

            If you didn’t promise shit then only people who longed for your society would be interested.

            Also I just read that three out of ten of the immigrant women and two of the immigrant men relationships are with a native. Which is because we prefer someone equal. Which likely also is why segregation happen and one reason why people have a harder time joining the work-force then they are outsider.

            People don’t like different. People like the same.

            To preach tolerance is one thing, but totally forget about that if you’re going to drag in 126 000 per year. At a cost of whomever knows, both economically and to society. I won’t be tolerant to that because the whole idea is complete shit and destructive.

            There is no argument in “you’re a racist” so that part make no sense and the “I’m not a racist, but ..” make no sense either and is the name of a retard online group.
            It’s not even said.
            As I said jokingly “Rather a racist than a nigger.”
            I have no problem being a racist. Even more when racism is part of the argument.

          • Anders Jackson

            Sigh…

            Yes, making claims about all in a group WITHOUT any data to support it is racism. If you have data to support it, it turns out to be facts describing something that is true. That is not racism.

            So you have that in the wrong foot.

            No, I have not said that or argued that the insurance system should do that either. So that is why we have limits on who can come and how many, unless they are from EU. Then we can’t stop them, even if they come here and begs on the streets.

            And no, being poor is not a reason to be an immigrant to Sweden. Get your facts right. Making Strawman arguments will not strengthen your arguments, just make them as weak as the Strawman argument.

            And I don’t see how allow some immigrants arrive will make any difference about the society or values or culture. The values are written into our constitution and culture has always changed and will always change. That is why it is a living culture, and nothing you can go to museum and study.
            And who is promise anything?

            People don’t like same, at least not women. That has many science studies shown. Men have a tendency to like same though, that is why they are more likely to stay.

            Tolerance are written into our constitution, like freedom of religions, speech etc. So lets “preach” the constitution, that sounds like a good idea. Yes, it is a problem for parties like Sverige Demokraterna, as they claim to be supportive to our culture and to our country.

            And where did you get your figure of 126 000 per year? And who are those? Immigrants? The net immigrants are more like 30 – 40 000 a year, and the largest group are Swedish people returning from working abroad.

            You know that without immigrants, Sweden would loose some 20-30 000 citizens a year, because of nativity is not enough, just about 2.0, and it need to be around 2.1 to be a steady sized population.

            Yes, the phrase “I’m not a racist, but…” (“Jag är inte rasist, men…”) is a typical “sign words” of a coming stream of racist claims after you hear that. It has still to shown to fail me as a signal of a racist talking. I guess it is so, because no other than a racist has to excuse his arguments with that before he tell them.
            The FB group was formed long after the phrase was started to be used.

            And by a matter of fact, it still worked. You are a racist, because of your opinions and what you write.

          • right1_left1

            quote: what is true is not racist.
            That may be your definition but I’m pretty sure it is not what the UK legal system applies.
            That which offends an individual of any given race tho usually black may be considered racist and subject to legal procedure.
            Fot example there is overwhelming empirical evidence that not all races are equal.
            Say so and at the very least you may lose your job.

            There is a tendency to the same kind of thing re rraappee..
            If a woman cries the dreaded word it must be true.

            Peedoopheellya is definitely already that way.
            There cannot possibly be any real independent *evidence* of most cases of historic activity.
            Accusation is sufficient. to bring about conviction.

          • Cyril Sneer

            Is that white men in majority white societies?

            Are you equally shocked by the fact that black men run things in Nigeria?

          • borisyeltsin

            No only because too many choose glitz, glamour, and career over fighting in the trenches for political and social reform.

            Every male who physically harms a woman should be completely ostracized by society and by the the victim herself. “Love one another” does not mean hurting one another
            Pueden ser que la paz y amor en toda su vida.

          • mastersoftheobvious

            If you do some research you will find that countries founded and run by white males allow more rights and freedoms for females than any other kind of countries.

          • Blu Soulstn

            Aahhh don’t tell them that then they will understand why woman around the world want to marry them.

          • Johan Krüger Haglert

            Also higher living standard?

          • Eugene Goostman

            Have you seen the living standards in the Gulf states? Much higher than the West.

          • Zachariah

            But the quality of life is terrible.

          • Eugene Goostman

            If you like dirt bikes, sand dunes, tax free living, nice weather, close access to Europe, Africa and Asia, then I would argue it’s an awesome place to live.

            I think the quality of life in the UK sucks balls, but I’m sure there will be half a hundred people willing to convince me otherwise. Half of them will threaten me with physical harm for holding such a view.

          • Zachariah

            I’m sorry but any reasonable person does not want to live in a society which violently oppresses women, beheads people in the street, flogs people, suppresses political dissent and imposes upon its people a tyrannical regime. To do so requires the total negation of your morals as a responsible human being.

          • Eugene Goostman

            You’re right. I don’t want to live in Saudi Arabia either. But I don’t. I live in a really peaceful country with almost no crime, without drunks pissing in the street, where women can go about their business unmolested, where I am as safe out at 3am as I am at 3pm. Where if I leave my car unlocked, when I get back to it, it’s the same as when I left it.

            I don’t get to vote – but I wouldn’t if I lived in the UK, either.

            And I don’t have to worry that my son will get ‘bottled’ while out for a meal with his sister, as happened when we lived in the UK. And I don’t have to worry about my daughter being raped, as happened when we lived in the UK. And I get to keep all the money I earn and not have to fund the latest pit of waste the UK government calls progress.

            See, there’s downsides to every country – but I feel happier, safer and much more comfortable living here than in Reading in the UK. My 5 bedroom house is the size of three Victorian terraces. My fuel costs 17p/litre and my net wages are higher, without any swingeing taxman taking 40% or more of what I earn.

            I’ve lived in the US, I’ve lived in the UK – for a long time. I much prefer living here.

            Stop using Saudi Arabia as the yardstick for all Muslim countries and you will be a lot happier. Go complain to your government that their good friends in SA are abusing women, instead of ranting at me about a country that has nothing to do with me. There are only two nice places in the Gulf – Oman and Jordan. Sure they are both monarchies and democracy is a little iffy, but they are infinitely better than their neighbours.

            There are nearly 2B Muslims in the world – only 200M are the kind of Arabs you describe. No doubt you also decry the behavior of every race and religion based on 10% of their adherents.

            Sucks to be you.

          • Zachariah

            Why don’t you name the country you live in?

            I don’t characterise all Muslims on the behaviour of a few. I am talking about states not individual people!

          • Da La

            The fact that people still think women are “allowed” to have rights by their male masters (as opposed to having them by birthright as humans but having to fight for them in places where logic-bereft “macho” attitudes prevail) proves that MOST countries still have a ways to go, including ones largely run by white males.

          • mastersoftheobvious

            Ok, Ok. I stand corrected. “Allow” was a poor choice of words.
            Will this help or make you even angrier?

            The rights that all people, regardless of gender, have, which are given them by God are more protected in countries founded and run by White Males than in any other country.

          • Anders Jackson

            Which God do you mean? Isn’t secular better than have to choose one God? And by the way, Jewish, Christian and Islams God are the same God…

          • mastersoftheobvious

            To say that Islam’s god is the same as the Jewish and Christian God reveals a good deal of ignorance about religion. Of course I was referring to the God Jefferson was referring to when he said: all men are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights …”

          • Anders Jackson

            Ask any religion scholar, and you will get the same answer. Jewish God is formed from two different Gods when two tribes got unified. Then Christianities God was formed from the small sect that followed the man Jesus of Nazareth, that was a Jew. Then the Islam was formed of a Arab that studied Jews and Christians and started a religion of his own. They don’t believe and worshiped three Gods like Christians does, according to Islam and Jewish.

            And yes, all Gods are the same God, the Jewish one. And claim that isn’t the case, are really showing that you don’t have the most basic religious education in this.

            But that is more or less expected from you. But here are some information, so you can educate yourself:

            http://press.princeton.edu/chapters/i7816.html

            “In two major volumes on the subject recently published by scholars from various faiths and traditions, including Volf’s, the most inclusive response from these scholars is basically: Yes, and it’s our God.”
            http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2013/09/01/do-christians-muslims-and-jews-worship-the-same-god/

            http://www.religionfacts.com/compare/christianity-islam-judaism

            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abrahamic_religions
            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abrahamic_religions#Common_aspects
            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abrahamic_religions#God

            http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2011/april/muslimschristianssamegod.html

          • mastersoftheobvious

            If you want to defend the only religion that wants to kill everyone else and is actively trying to do so go ahead just do it somewhere else I have no use for it.

          • Anders Jackson

            @master. No, I wouldn’t want to do that. Which religion are you talking about?

            I do despite lies and lairs though. And lying about other people are the worst, and racist do that. Even Jesus claimed that after not respecting and fearing God, lairs are the worst people he could think of. It is even on the ten commandments on the list given to Moses from God.

            I might add that ignorant people that doesn’t want to learn new stuff also are high on that list of despicable people.

          • Anders Jackson

            @master, what religion are you writing about? I don’t think I defend any religion, and certainly not Christianity, Islam or Buddhism. You not thinking you have any use of it will not change one thing.

            WHAT I am doing is explaining to you, and others, where you are wrong, where you make up stuff as you go. Where you express ignorance about the subject at hands, which isn’t bad, if it only was ignorance. Ignorance can be cured, not wanting to learn are bad And hard to do anything about. That is dogmatic to not want to learn and not accept facts and science.

            And no, it doesn’t if you are uncomfortable about the facts, they are still true and the facts are facts. You can feel how Uncomfortable about it as you like.

            The Jewish, Christian and Islamic God are the same, just different interpretations of the diety. They all are based on the same old books. You might want to study Ish, a Islam prophet, which was born by a Virgin and preached peace and love. Think one religion calls him Jesus Christ of Nazareth…

          • Anders Jackson

            @mastersoftheobvious:disqus, what religion did you refer too? Christianity, Islam, Buddhism or some one else?

            I don’t defend any religion, but I hate when people are lying and make bigotry arguments about things they obviously doesn’t know anything about.

            And it doesn’t change one thing if you have any use of it or not. That doesn’t change if it is true or not.

          • mastersoftheobvious

            Why do you keep harassing me with this insanity? You’re entitled to your opinion. I don’t give a damn what you think.

            I don’t want you to go away mad. I just want you to go away.

          • Anders Jackson

            Harassment in public comments to an article when commenting your posts? Very strange definition of harassment you have.
            Are you not aware that you might expect answers when you post on a public web sit, MastersOfTheObvious?

            As long as you make strange postings with ignorant statements based on false data, I will correct them.
            If you express your opinions I might comment on them.

          • mastersoftheobvious

            Very well. Keep posting your insanity.

          • borisyeltsin

            Agree,but the countries run by white males if democratic can be quickly changed to progressive humanistic governments, if the oppressed themselves should get up, speak up and most importantly vote for individual politicians who have thr integrity and courage of Ms, Margot.

          • WimsThePhoenix

            Get that rod out of your bum. When the muslims take over, you will look back longingly of your days under white male “oppression”. It’s barmy feminists like you who will be muslim meat when the Left succeed in installing Islam throughout the West.

          • Eugene Goostman

            Do you know how ludicrous you sound?

            One one hand we have The Left – which according to you are rampant feminists

            On the other we have the jihad – intent on ensuring “the muslims take over” and, according to you, intent on enslaving women.

            And of course, The Left, with all their degrees in social sciences can’t see this and so will go ahead and ensure the caliphate is given an easy run.

            What a buffoon.

          • trav45

            “ALLOW more rights and freedoms for females”? Wow.

          • mastersoftheobvious

            ?????

          • Karolina de Honestis

            Because women have fought tooth and nail for centuries for these freedoms. They were not given to us by benevolent males, they were fought for and gained after many hardships from a malevolent ruling class of rich white misogynistic males of church and state. Many women have died fighting for the freedoms we enjoy today. It is an affront to their sacrifice that you insinuate that women have always enjoyed freedom and liberty in the christian west.

          • mastersoftheobvious

            Didn’t you read my response to Da La? Wow if all women were as hateful as some of you the species would have died out by now.

          • Karolina de Honestis

            Take our “hatefulness” and multiply it by 99 billion, and you might start to come near the effects on the species and the planet that the hatefulness spite and malice of men have accomplished through the millennia.

            Besides, I wasn’t hateful, I merely stated facts. Perhaps you confuse your sensitive and emotional reaction to mere facts with what you perceive as my intention to hurt your feelings.

          • mastersoftheobvious

            Go to a place where there no white men you might find that white men have done more to advance the rights of ALL people than any other group.

            If you are demanding perfection the earthly realm is the wrong place to look.
            If you are honest you might go a little easier on white men.

            Some anger management classes might help too.

          • Karolina de Honestis

            Male as well as female philosophers of different ethnicities have furthered human rights, by challenging the political, ruling and religious establishment, by protesting against what they perceived as moral and civil injustice and by questioning the status quo.

            It seems you are not well versed in history, as you seem completely unaware of women and various ethnical groups role in the civil and social rights movement, and how most men have been against every single bit of change that women have fought for and that we all now enjoy the benefits of. Of course the uneducated masses of white underpriviledged working class men were an easily duped and manipulated group that the rich white men bent to their will (by catering to and fueling their fear of losing what little power they perceived that they at least had over women and children), which was to keep and stay in power and control. Womens rights activists (which also included some men) have ensured voting rights for all, not just rich landowning white men for example.

          • mastersoftheobvious

            I’m not saying people of all races, men and women alike, haven’t made contributions to human freedom just as there have been men and women of all races who have stood against human liberty.

            What I’m saying is that to single out white men as the root of all evil is misplaced, when in fact, when all things are considered no single group has done more to advance human rights for all people than white males.

            That is not meant to minimize anyone else. It is just the way it is.

          • Karolina de Honestis

            No one has singled out white men as the root of all evil. It seems you are projecting. Especially not white men of today, as no one an and should be blamed for the sins and deeds of previous generations.

            But your statement that no one has done more to advance human rights for all people than white males is absolutely false. It is quite the opposite; no one single group has done more to subjugate, control, manipulate and enslave the human race than white males. By conquest, by colonialism, by religion, by slavery, by racism, by sexism, by political ideologies, by a monetary based society etcetera.

            I am just as related to these white males as you are, so if hereditary sin was a real thing (and not just a made up idiocy to subjugate women), I’d be just as much to blame for previous generations as you. Still, white males in history, and especially rich white males, has wreaked havoc upon the earth, committed atrocities, wiped out whole civilizations, committed genocide multiple times, enslaved other races as well as women. And fought the civil and womens rights movements every step of the way. It is not thanks to white men that we have civil liberties, it is in spite of them.

          • Cyril Sneer

            “No one has singled out white men as the root of all evil”

            You just did in that last post.

            “has wreaked havoc upon the earth, committed atrocities, wiped out whole
            civilizations, committed genocide multiple times, enslaved other races
            as well as women.”

            So you’re blaming white males as some sort of collective group. That makes you a bigot.

            Kill yourself.

            Take your bigoted identity politics and shove it right up your liberal a-hole.

            It always amazes me with holier than thou liberals who think they can display the same form of vile racism and sexism and just because the target is white and male you somehow think you’re beyond bigotry. No you’re not, you’re a bigot. Well done.

          • Karolina de Honestis

            Seems like you’re simply cherry picking to justify your own anger and resentment towards me, as well as projecting your own bigotry upon me.

            If you had the ability to move past your own emotional response at what you perceive as some sort of social injustice, you would be able to read the whole text I wrote, instead of just some out of context excerpts that fit your own askewed view of the world and women.

          • mastersoftheobvious

            Will Rogers said that “the problem with most people isn’t what they don’t know; it’s what they know that isn’t so”.

            I truly believe that is the case here. It appears that your mind is closed to new thought so I won’t try to reason with you any more.
            I guess we’ll just have to agree to disagree.

            Nonetheless, I wish you well.

            Shalom.

          • Karolina de Honestis

            Seems to me like your mind is closed to historical fact that is deduced from historical records as well as archaeological and anthropological research and study. Maybe the crux is that it just doesn’t rhyme well with your perceived worldview.

            My mind is very much open to new thoughts as long as they are reason-based, fact-based and logical. Not fantasies and wishful thinking or outright lies.

          • mastersoftheobvious

            Michelangelo, da Vinci, Newton, Euler, Leibniz, Galileo, Kepler, Mozart, Beethoven, Hayden, Washington, Jefferson, Madison, Paine, Adams, Franklin, Lincoln, Roosevelt, Einstein, Churchill.

            The list could go on but the fact that white men, some of them rich, have contributed a lot to the betterment of all humankind is hard to dispute. Without the list above the world would be a far, far different and less hospitable place for everybody.

            I am not being racist but I think it would be very hard to compile a similar list from any other race.

            In my previous post I was actually trying to be nice and accept that neither of us was going to persuade the other to our position.

            Sometimes we just need to accept that and go on without any more insults.

            Really.

          • Feminister

            “Michelangelo, da Vinci, Newton, Euler, Leibniz, Galileo, Kepler, Mozart, Beethoven, Hayden, Washington, Jefferson, Madison, Paine, Adams, Franklin, Lincoln, Roosevelt, Einstein, Churchill”

            I wonder if they were embarrassed about only getting their positions as a result of positive discrimination and white, male-only shortlists.

          • mastersoftheobvious

            Hardly, there was no one else at the time who could do what they could do. Is there a corresponding list of achievement by any other demographic?

            Heck, there have been very few since who could do what they did.

            Do you ever feel embarrassed about looking at EVERYTHING through the lens of victimhood?

            If you’re looking for perfection the earthly realm is the wrong place to look.

            Of course wrongs have been committed against virtually every group in the past but, as a group, humanity MUST put grievances behind us and move forward.

            The Sisterhood of Victimhood is what’s holding women back today.

          • Sarka

            Possibly, but not in Saudi Arabia, which was the subject of the ATL.

          • Anders Jackson

            No, it is not what holding women back today. It is still men. It geting better, but it still isn’t good. And we need to struggle for each step.
            I mean, look what happen in US with those anti HBTQ laws. There you have some steps back.

          • Anders Jackson

            Well, you happen to ignore all the Arabs that brought things like algorithms and zero to Europe. And saved most of the Greece literature too the world. Without the arabs/muslims we would have been far less advanced today. And not to mention India and China too, or the Egypts. You are very, very western centric.
            But then again, there are mostly men there too.

          • mastersoftheobvious

            Show me the list.

          • Anders Jackson

            Why don’t you search for yourself, that is educational. But I skip that and give you this. But first, you are an example of the worst of Orientalism.
            But Islamic science had a good impact on the world.
            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Science_in_the_medieval_Islamic_world#The_views_of_historians_and_scholars

            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arabs#Culture (Arabic culture)
            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_Golden_Age#New_technology (The Golden Age of Islam)
            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_Golden_Age#Healthcare (The first to demand licens to be doctors)
            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_Golden_Age#Education (The world first university with degrees)
            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_Golden_Age#Freedom_of_Expression (Freedom of expression during the Golden Age)

            Here are some inventions.
            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_inventions_in_the_medieval_Islamic_world (Wide variety, like Marching bands, Torpedos, Luta, Odd that later become Guitar, chryptological analyzing, etc)

            And then more specifics about Science
            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Science_in_the_medieval_Islamic_world

            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mathematics_in_medieval_Islam (Mathematics)
            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astronomy_in_the_medieval_Islamic_world (Astronomy)

            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medicine_in_the_medieval_Islamic_world (Medicin)
            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geography_and_cartography_in_medieval_Islam
            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Physics_in_the_medieval_Islamic_world (Physics)

            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ophthalmology_in_medieval_Islam
            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychology_in_medieval_Islam (Psychology)
            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astronomy_in_the_medieval_Islamic_world (Astronomy)
            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geography_and_cartography_in_medieval_Islam (Maps)

            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orientalism

          • mastersoftheobvious

            Show us something positive produced by Islam in the last thousand years. And all the stuff from a thousand or more years ago can’t be accurately verified today. How about do some research on the atrocities committed by followers of Islam TODAY and every day for that matter. Islam has no place in a civilized world. Period.

          • Anders Jackson

            Master, are you not able to handle a web browser? There you have, about 10 links to great stuff that you and I uses today, which have been steps that we uses today, which Islamic scientists have created and/or made available to European and Western world. Like the zero digit. Or the knowledge about those Classic Greeks.

            So, just read the bloody links!

          • mastersoftheobvious

            Come into the real world. Look at the fruits of Islam today.

          • Anders Jackson

            Are you for real or only a Internet Troll? I am leaning on “the later.

            First it was anything useful from Islam/Arabs or any other culture. Which there are others before the Islam one. Like India, China and Egypt.
            Anyway, I gave you some examples to response to your list.

            You – “Michelangelo, da Vinci, Newton, Euler….”

            You – “I am not being racist but I think it would be very hard to compile a similar list from any other race.”

            Then it was anything the last 1000 years and now it is today.

            You – “Show us something positive produced by Islam in the last thousand years. And all the stuff from a thousand or more years ago can’t be accurately verified today”
            “Islam has no place in a civilized world. Period.”

            Well it can, if you actual educate yourselves and doesn’t protect your little racist corner.
            As that last mark from you shows clearly what you are. But I knew that would come eventually, as you also earlier stated “I am not being racist but “, and usually the racist statements come in a steady stream after that. Sadly, it seldom fails. Might be because no one except racists think they need to state that before they start to place those statements.

            But…
            Use the fucking web search tools. I have done you home work three times now, it is time you can show us you can live in the current world.

            And by the way. All that I link to is still things that without the Western World would wouldn’t even start to build steam machines, wouldn’t been able to sent space ships in orbit. All that because the Islam/Arabs brought the needed knowledge to use when Europe was berried under the dark times. When we didn’t even used the digit zero.

            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Muslim_Nobel_laureates (List of Muslim Nobel laureate)

          • Karolina de Honestis

            http://www.nytimes.com/1990/03/27/science/did-einstein-s-wife-contribute-to-his-theories.html
            In 1776, Abigail Adams wrote to husband, John Adams, to “remember the ladies and be more generous and favorable to them than your ancestors…” when writing the new laws of the land. She went on, “If particular care and attention is not paid to the ladies, we are determined to foment a rebellion, and will not hold ourselves bound by any laws in which we have no voice or representation.”

            Margareta Valdemarsdotter (Margaret I of Denmark),
            Hildegard of Bingen, Elizabeth I of England, Catherine the Great, Catherine de’ Medici, Émilie du Châtelet, Hatshepsut, Maria Sibylla Merian, Hypatia, Maria Gaetana Agnesi, Laura Bassi, Maria Margarethe Kirch, Rosa Parks, Maria Sofia De la Gardie, Olympe de Gouges, Mary Wollstonecraft, Artemisia Gentileschi, Gudrid Thorbjarnardóttir, Queen Victoria, Empress Wu Zetian, Jeanne d’Arc (Joan of Arc), Gertrude Elion, Maya Angelou, Marie Curie, Florence Nightingale, Shirin Ebadi, Ida B. Wells, Benazir Bhutto, Oprah Winfrey, J.K.Rowling, Susan B. Anthony, Hedy Lamarr, Mary Pickford, Sappho, Boudica, Eleanor of Aquitaine, Harriet Beecher Stowe, Eleanor Roosevelt, Dorothy Hodgkin, Billie Holiday, Malala Yousafzai, Aspasia of Miletus (Socrates’ teacher), Maria Montessori, Sojourner Truth, Isabella I of Castile, Pocahontas, Emmeline Pankhurst, Tomyris… just a few influential women off the top of my head…

          • mastersoftheobvious

            I didn’t say that there were no women who made significant contributions. My point was stop bashing white men.

          • tracy

            I like this essay. I am a white malke, and I know I have to feel sheepish about it when I travel in countries that whites have literally destroyed en masse, tortured en masse, and enslaved. But, to end this discussion and prove beyond refutation that whitey should be forever paying reparations to the planet, we need say just Two Words, just two, two to show an example of whte man’s psychological hard wired genetic make up, and that should be enough to cause any white American male to hide his head in shame:
            American Indians.
            again/
            American Indians

          • A_Kill_Ease

            “Tracy” my thanks for taking on the “white” shame and guilt for all the rest of us “whitey” Mans ( home sapiens) inhumanity to fellow man is well documented, thanks . Enjoy your quilt trip on behave of your past ancestors.

          • Agbor Emmanuel

            Very interesting debate! a blend of race, religion, politics and economics. We are too often governed by self interests in our relationship with others, this is even more glaring when it comes to relationships between states. Foreign policy is too often shelved so as not to offend ‘partners’. Little wonder that Margot Wallstrom is abandoned in Limbo. Reading the passionate write-ups i would suggest that a debate be organized by any interested TV channel, it would certainly be very educative. I would suggest that these same contributors be invited to look at each other, eyeball to eyeball before uttering those very ‘Kind words” i won’t mind making a financial contribution to see it concertized.

          • A_Kill_Ease

            ” no one single group has done more to subjugate, control, manipulate and enslave the human race than white males. By conquest, by colonialism, by religion, by slavery, by racism, by sexism, by political ideologies, by a monetary based society etcetera.”

            I beg to differ but there has been many “groups” in human history, one example is the Arab Muslim conquests from 630CE to end of Ottoman empire who have done same.

            But please, continue with your feminist “white male bashing” bias and feminist point of view, I have found it very entertaining and educational. Tell me, is “your” feminist man hating point of view restricted to all males or just “rich white males?” I’m quite curious, what do you mean or define by the word “white” ?

          • Zootalaws

            Ottomans weren’t Arabs.

          • Anders Jackson

            Oh, don’t ruin @A_Kill_Ease fantasy world wiev with facts. He get so confused…

          • Milrem

            I do not agree at all !
            I am french. French women have always been worshiped in France as well as in England and everywhere in Europe. Except they did not get the right to vote before 1923, I think, after they worked for it, and one of my great aunt especially !?
            For colonialism and slavery, you forget that colonialism, for France, began as a reaction to the moors attacks everywhere in the Mediterranéan sea and even northern europe where they distroyed everything and made, in 7 centuries, much more white slaves than all the slaves made by the whites in the world in history ! So no excuses !
            But the subject here is the condition of women in muslim countries : it is very close to slavery, Some women there think, of course, that there is no other state than that for a woman !!
            Personaly, I favor intelligent, cultured and free and sexy women (though a servile woman can be fun !) and that’s why I favor the occidental way of life more than the muslim one, for which we are nothing, but miserable creatures of God and therefore not allowed to be happy on earth !!
            To Tracy, yes american indians…But it was 150 years ago, so it’s a shame, but it is past !

          • Anders Jackson

            Worshiping women are not the same as giving them their rights. A common mistake.

            “But the subject here is the condition of women in muslim countries : it
            is very close to slavery, Some women there think, of course, that there
            is no other state than that for a woman !!”

            To answer that, no it isn’t and yes it is. It DEPENDS on WHICH Islamic COUNTRY you look at and what version of all interpretation of Islam you are looking at. Most of the problems you are addressing are with Saudi Arabia, which is why Margot Whalström did address that.

            Some Islamic countries have had women as president long before many Western countries. When did US (or France) had it’s first female president, Oh, it hasn’t had one. When did they have the first non white presiden, Oh, just about 8 years ago, with the current presiden Obama but France? When did they have the first non Christian president? Oh, it hasn’t had any (ok, you could argue about the first American ones, but still. I don’t know about France there).
            And yes, Sweden has not had any woman as prime minister yet either.

            So what with this long line of statements. Don’t be such a unknown rasist and xenophobian about things you have not that much knowlege about. I don’t have that much knowlege either, except I have more than most Islamophobes here has.

          • Milrem

            It is absolutely possible for a woman to be a president in France (as well as a black), and we will probably have one soon, except much less women are interested in politics than men !

            Concerning islam, I am not relating to Saudi Arabia ! I have toured the world many times since 40 years and…the islamic world has dramaticaly changed…for the worst ! The muslims I knew 20 or 30 years ago were peaceful and quiet ! They have been replaced by angry, resentful young people, who pretend to know the Coran, but who know only a few sourates where they take every word at its roots instead of at its image ! If we,christians, did the same with the Bible, we would be wild people as we were centuries ago !

            And why do you think people are angry (islamophobs, as you say), in our countries ? Look at the chinese. We have over a million in France : there is never any trouble with them ! I am not sure there is even one chinese in our jails which are filled up with arabs and blacks who happen to be muslim, who feel they are exempt to work, but to favor the jihad !

            And as a woman, I am surpised you like islam ! I happen
            to know the law in Islam since quite a while ! Would you like not to be allowed in public space without a « protecting » man, not being allowed for instance to get a passport without a brother or a husband ? And if you don’thave one at 30, it is because you are a whore ? The woman who took care of my daughter 30 years ago was an algerian, and two times she did not take her
            vacations in Algeria because…her brother had «forgotten » to buy her plane ticket (just to show his power !). I read her mariage contract :
            her husband had absolutely all rights upon her (including killing her for « suspicion » of adultery) ! She could not ask for divorce, only her husband had this right !

            Islam is the religion for men who want power over women : and it is the same in all islamic states. Thank God, some countries are now beginning to react : Egypt, Tunisia… And I wish, especially for women, that they will succeed in eradicating Islam as a politic and social mean
            over people ! But the worst are in Europe, filled with anger and jealousy and…convinced they have no future (but almost never trying to check !!).

          • Anders Jackson

            I didn’t ask about what could, I was asking about if it had been. And no, I don’t belive that women are less interested in politics, why should they.

            We (I’m not, but anyway) did that? We do, look at the fanatics in US, or in Africa. There you have angry fanatics.

            And where are the statistics to support your claims. Because first I don’t belive you that it is that bad. But it could still be bad, but most of it could be explained by living outside the society and not allowed into it. Reasons, you go figure. But as long as they don’t see a future, what else can they do but turn angry at the society that doesn’t let them in?

            And just change the “arguments” of the “angry” people a bit and think again. Change “Islam” to “Judaism” and change “muslim” with “jews”. Yes, do that and come back and tell us what it sounded like.

            I don’t like islam, where did you get that from? I do don’t bigots and rasists though. And I hate that people make me feel the need to corect them when they are obviously expressing racism and ignorance. When the information are just there, to google or use Wikipedia and read up on the stuff. Instead of beliving the first racesist that gives an easy answer to difficult questions.

            What version of the “Islamic” laws do you know? You know that here are not one islamic law and not one islamic interpretation of Islam? Do you even know the how many mayor interpretations there are? Do you know why the two largest can’t stand each other?

            You seems to confuse “Islamic laws” to Saudi Arabic laws, which I am the first to agree are really bad. Bad that is NOT the only Islamic laws there are. There are others that you as a women can go in shorts and tshirt with open sholders, if you want to. Without an male escort, and drive a car if you want to.

            There are christians running around killing muslims as we speak, just because they are muslims. And because of that, by your argumentation, you are also a murderer. All christians are murderers. You hear how bad it is, don’t you? No, there are some countries wich are really bad and hostile to women. Like Irland and Malta, where they have to go abroad to have abortions. And yes, of course Saudi Arabia.
            And if you treat people with disrespect, not giving them the real opertunity to grow and have a future, the grow hostile.

          • Milrem

            It seems you did not read what I wrote !!

            I am not a racist or somebody who goes with the tide !!
            I say what i see, or saw !

            To answer your
            comments :

            1)
            I think that women are much less interested in politics
            than men ! When I socialize, men often speak about politics, women of
            other matters, most of the time, which doesn’t mean they have no opinion !

            2)
            I feel more secure with angry fanatics in america than
            in africa or middle east ! And do not think as if we were responsible for
            the past ! We are not, things have changed lately in the christian world, you know ?

            3)
            The young arabs in France don’t see a future but why do
            the young asiatics do ? how comes ? They were as poor 20 or 30 years
            ago ! The asiatics are wealthy and trust the best places in universities
            now !

            4)
            If I was an Israeli, I would be angry ! But you
            better go in Israël and learn about history of this land since 1900 for
            instance : maybe you will understand better ! What is the difference
            between a jew and a christian european ? None ! Not at all ! Same
            values ! They have a little bit more ambition maybe, but because people
            like you hate them for no reason !?

            5)
            I think I know arabs and blacks, and Islam better than
            you do : in France as well as the rest of the world. You have a new
            televison or internet generation in islamic countries who just hate the whites :
            jealousy, ignorance, lazyness are probably the explanations ?

            6)
            The muslim girls who go in shorts and Tshirts are less
            and less numerous ! They are not allowed anaymore because insulted
            everywhere they go in the streets. The only acceptable islam I know now is in
            Asia but they also have their extremists and the muslim girls cannot go in
            shorts or T shirts there as well ! I have a few morrocan friends, girls, who
            came to France, seeking freedom ! Some already exiled to Switzerland where
            they are not insulted by muslim men !

            7)
            Ha, Ha, Ha ! abortion in a muslim country ?
            Are you dreaming ? The only, only task given to women in a muslim country
            is to make babies. No other !

            8)
            I will be very afraid when I will go to Ireland or Malta
            now ! These irish seem to be very dangerous !? Do they behead ?
            In rugby, they are fierce and they often win ! I understand now, with your
            explanation !

            9)
            WAKE UP ! And don’t believe people are racists.
            Racism comes with ignorance ! Sweden is an educated country. If people do
            not like islam in Europe, there must be a reason ! But it is not racism !
            It is a culture gap that cannot be reduced !

          • Anders Jackson

            1) That is because they are expected to not have an oppinion. That is changing, but still.

            2) You know that there are many terrorist organisations in US, like Christians who bomb and kill doctors and then we have JDL, Jewish defence League. That said, I wouldn’t trust any violent person that base it on some fanatics, anywhere.

            3) Being poor doesn’t give you a great future. Being shot at by Israel doesn’t give you a good future. Being shot at by your countrys leaders doesn’t give you a good furure. And that is played on by political leaders, who uses religion (or nationality) to gain power. Happens everywhere and just by muslims young people. Usually that is what happen when young people reacts to unjustice.

            4) Oh, you do know that in that time you referencing to, Zionism just started, Muslims, Christians, Jews lived in peace with each other under UK governance in Palestine. There was no state Israel. Then the Zionist terrorist blew up some hotels, killed a lot of Arabs and assassinated a Swedish royal UN negotiator and a French general as they was near to suggest a solution with a divided Israel/Palestine. Men in charge of those bombings and assassinations terrorist actions later became Prime ministers of Israel. You should get your history straight, then we wouldn’t need to correct you so much…

            5) I don’t think so. I work with blacks and with Muslims. Have no problems with them, and they have no with me when it comes to religions. The problem in France is the racism, that people living in the wrong area have very little possibilities to get out of their and make themselves a future. Give them hope, something to loose, and you will get much less problems. Yes, I know we do have those kinds of problems here to.

            6) You don’t see them as Muslim girls, as they are like the christian girls. Take any of the Muslim countries with the largest populations, and do the calculation again. Or in any secular country. There are Muslim girls dressed in many ways, as with christian girls. Or do you also complain about less and less christian girls are walking with nun outfits?

            7) You are a very ignorant bigot in this subject.
            Take a look in this map and look at christian countries in south america or poland/malta/ireland/
            http://worldabortionlaws.com/map/ (Please click in the “i” up left for more info)
            Match that with this information in another web browser window.
            http://www.religioustolerance.org/mapwrldrel.htm
            So there are many European countries that have worse than some Muslim countries. So you are wrong.

            8) What do you connect to here? Just another false Strawman argument from you?
            Was it something to do with this? http://www.law.columbia.edu/magazine/interactive/1888/interactive-map-death-penalty-stances-around-the-world

            9) If people express racists opinion, I will call them out on that. If you don’t like it, stop expressing racists opinions. How hard can it be? Yes, being an islamophobian or xenophobian are considered racism according to UN.

            I guess those who don’t like Islam in Europe also want to remove basic human freedoms like “Freedom of religion” then? Yes, the problem is with them.
            And yes, you can criticize different sects and denominations and countries implementation of laws and sharia laws. But to generalize over 25% of the earth population () is just plain stupid. Like generalize in the same way about Christians, 35% of the worlds population. At least unaffiliated are growing to third place (16%).

            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam#Denominations (Yes, there are no Single united Islam, as it is no Single united Christianity)
            https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam (No excuse of being ignorant, there are information in french too)
            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Major_religious_groups
            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity (Because you are probably ignorant about this too)

          • Milrem

            You are a white bashing activist !!

            You see racist, xenophobics and whatever bad people everywhere !

            You have never been in muslim countries and know only by the books unlike me who has travelled, and lived everywhere in the world during 40 years.

            You have not seen anywhere in Algeria the hords of young arabs following a single woman as I have, only because they are women and these young men are so much sexually frustrated by the way islam treats women !

            You have not seen like me the nice people of Morocco, Tunisia, Egypt, Thaïland, Philippines when they were not doing the Jihad, 30 years and so ago ! These nice people are rejected, bashed, physically fought by fanatics nowadays.

            The french are fed up with these millions and millions of muslims (well over 20% of the population) coming from a few tenth of thousands in the 60’s, who do nothing, are lazy, hate the french who welcomed them. Thanks God, there are a few (specially girls) who work, are decent, respectful and respectable !

            The real problem everywhere is to integrate them. But it is impossible to debate, to integrate and to take measures if the problem is ignored (by people like you for instance !) as well by politicians !
            So stop with you insults : I am not a racist because I do not generalize (like you do).
            And you are not the sword of justice who says who is right and who is false !

          • Anders Jackson

            No, I don’t see bad people everywhere, but I am not shutting up for one.

            I don’t know where I have been or not been. So stop making stupid Strawman arguments. It only shows that you have no valid arguments left. Travels usually make people more open minded. But I guess it can’t get it right every time.

            Now you are not talking about religion but about sexual harassment, which are every where, and yes it is a huge problem in same countries, but still a problem in all countries.

            You get what you saw, so there you have for the colonization. And as I said, make it possible to get out of the ghettos and into the society, and they won’t hate the situation they are in, in the country they are in. And the reaction is the same, unrelated to religion or origin.

            Yes, there are problems integration immigrants, but that is not only the immigrants fault.
            You generalize, you just did with the current immigrants or children of immigrants.

            Each should be judged by what he do, not what others form the same place or with the same religion or similar religion does.
            No, in a just secular society we let the law and judges judge people, not the mob.

          • Milrem

            OK keep your ideas !
            As long as you do not confront with reality (like I did), you will not understand that there is a meaning to the word civilization and that most of the time,
            Civilizations based on strong beliefs cannot coexist. One will win. And i am afraid our peaceful occidental civilization, nourrishing people like you… can only be swallowed ! But I don’t want my daughter and grand kids to wear a tchador. You do not care, apparently ? Your choice until you will, suddently, open your eyes, well hidden, today, behind the shelter of your good heart !

          • Anders Jackson

            @disqus_67ZcejcLXa:disqus you know nothing about me and my experience, so stop pretending that you have more experience then me or better understanding of the word civilization.

            You are obviously ignorant of the difference between extremists and the rest. I don’t judge people, yes people, on what others wit the same religion do. A Muslim, or Christian or Atheist or what not, are responsible for their own actions, and no one elses.

            And if you are going to decide what your daughter and grand kids is going to believe or wear, than you are not that educated as you claim and pretends. It is none of your business what they do or don’t.
            And if you think they are going to be forced to, then the secular way of governance are the only way. Yes, we are a long way from there in most countries, even in Europe. But that is the only way that different religions and non religious can live together.

          • lovespherepoet

            Mahatma Gandhi, Martin Luther King, Nelson Mandala, Gro Bruntland, Angela Merkel, Eleanor Roosevelt, and many more supported human rights for all. We have had many that were not white males who led nations at critical times.None were perfect in everyone’s eyes, but then nobody is.

          • global city

            is that a deliberate attempt at distraction?

          • 2catsmeow

            too late

          • Neil Saunders

            But that is precisely what our elites ARE allowing.

          • Camille Gilliam

            This is why we don’t want Sharia law.

          • Eugene Goostman

            You don’t know anything about Shariah law, that’s clear. If you did, you wouldn’t make such a blitheringly ignorant statement.

          • http://www.ophiuchuscube.com/ Hendrik

            I think people know more than enough about sharia law to know they do not want it in Europe or anywhere in the West.

          • Eugene Goostman

            You think you know. I live under Shariah law. It barely scratches my consciousness. For a start, as a non-Muslim, most of it doesn’t apply to me.

            Just as existing Shariah courts in the West (and Hebrew courts and ecclesiastical Christian courts) don’t have any jurisdiction outside of their own adherents. And even then, they only apply if the two parties agree to it.

            No-one can be forced to be judged by a religious court, unless you live in a country where it is the only rule of law.

            You are being a bit hysterical in your condemnation of something that is never going to apply to you.

            Your country has its own laws and statutes, enacting Shariah courts won’t remove those or deny you your rights under your criminal and civil laws – it adds another level for those that want it.

            You say “I think people know more than enough about sharia law” but I don’t think they do. If you are typical, then it’s clear they don’t.

          • Guest

            In your case Eugene, I wished Earth was flat, like the Quran teaches in Islam. You would be one of the first people I would push over the edge. You are more than arrogant AND ignorant.

          • Eugene Goostman

            And your contribution is nothing but bile.

            Typical hater – wishing hurt on someone you don’t know because of no reason other than they have a different opinion to you.

            Stay classy.

          • Non-Halal for Me!

            I am no hater. The only emotion I have towards you is pity. You talk about classy, yet yourself make childish remarks if you run out of arguments.

          • Peter Parker

            ‘Run out of arguments’? I don’t see Eugene proposing anything sensible…

          • Eugene Goostman

            Blinkers will do that to you.

          • Aaron Hird

            you should know… you seem to be proudly displaying your blinkers for all to see.

          • global city

            pathologically enamoured with the ‘other” too!

            You self hate has been well ingrained.

          • Debra Wehrly

            Nobody is being hateful. People here are expressing their opinion and most of them do not agree with Sharia Law, including myself. I think that the laws that western countries have are perfectly fine, and if people want to immigrate to another country, then they should respect and abide by the laws of their home countries and not ask for special privileges. Do you think that other countries would do the same for me?

          • Eugene Goostman

            You need to read more. You are woefully underinformed.

          • Derhexenhammer

            How do you disagree with something you’re clearly ignorant of? You contesting sharia law when you’re clearly ignorant of it, is a lot like if I were to contest the findings of a great neuroscientist, because I don’t know jack shit about neurobiology.

            If you want to to stand against Sharia law, then fine, but don’t be a bigot about it. Take issue with Amish Ordnung and Jewish Halakha too, because they are analogous to Sharia in every way.

          • flyingrhino

            Quran teaches the earth is flat? Citations please.

          • Barbarossa77

            Didn’t you hear the latest scientific news that the Universe is actually flat so the Bible is technically right ..

          • Mary Ann

            The western world believed the world was flat long after the Koran was written.

          • Nils Desperandum

            It has even been argued that a round earth is contrary to Scripture, since there are certain Bible verses which it can be interpreted to indicate that the Earth is flat.

          • anne rochekelly

            True once upon a number of centuries ago but we evolved. You obviously haven’t.

          • Debra Wehrly

            Human societies have evolved beyond ancient desert tribal laws like Sharia.

          • Derhexenhammer

            no, Pashtunwali, the legal system that reigns in Afghanistan, that is a desert tribal law.

            if Sharia is invalid because of its age and geographic origin, then Catholic/Orthodox Law, as well as Jewish Halakha, are equally invalid.

          • Derhexenhammer

            That’s not true. It was western philosophy that determined the world wasn’t flat. Eratosthenes not only figured out that the Earth was round, but he also was able to calculate the circumference of the Earth with a 1% margin of error… 2300 years ago.

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ZLI7WZZRJQ

          • Christmas57

            Anaxagora did it at first 340 b. c. measuring the shadow of a small stock planted in the soil.

          • Non-Halal for Me!

            In your case Eugene, I wish the Earth was flat, like the Quran teaches in Islam. You would be one of the first people I would push over the edge. You are more than arrogant AND ignorant.

          • Eugene Goostman

            Can’t work out how to use the internet?

          • Non-Halal for Me!

            Your mouth is full about a lot of things. How long did you live in South Africa, with those “5 passports” of yours?

          • Eugene Goostman

            I have never lived in South Africa, and my five passports weren’t concurrent, but consecutive.

            Is that the best you’ve got, hater?

            You’re just another ignorant bogan.

          • Non-Halal for Me!

            Good, then do not talk about South Africa as if you know ANYTHING, because you don’t. Please do not flatter yourself, hate is an emotion and I do not waste my emotions. You seem really happy living under Sharia …. makes me wonder what kind you are : male chauvinist (you certainly sound that way) or Pedophile perhaps? Either way, I am sure you have a heart for animals, eg. goats, camels, donkeys.

            You don’t just sound intellectually handicapped calling me a hater, but you definitely have more than just one screw loose. Your arrogance is so hilarious and I must at least thank you for being really blessed not to have any of your type in my life.

            Have a great day, if you can 🙂

          • Eugene Goostman

            Oh, I see – a Saffer refugee to Australia.

            You are in good company – plenty of fellow racists for you to bond with.

            Fuck you and your bigotry, you dirty cuntrag.

          • Non-Halal for Me!

            Awwww 🙁 where has “Classy” gone…? I am no Saffer, nor am I a refugee to Australia. Can’t work out how to use the Internet? Poor beggar, yep, now we all know your real reasons for loving and defending Islam, even with a silly Dutch name like yours….. You are a clown Eugene, and sadly, for you, you just shown your true colours…. 😉

          • roland von malmborg

            Non-halal, please stick to the Point, instead of spreading hate and insults “beggar, clown, silly name, loving Islam”. Your type of behaviour is what poisons the net, filling it with crap of intolerance. I don’t know if Goostman “defends islam” somewhere else, but here he has tried to explain some facts, wether he likes the situation or not. Roland, Sweden

          • WimsThePhoenix

            You should read what the scumbag wrote elsewhere before you defend him.

          • Zootalaws

            Nothing he wrote is anything near as uninformed, nasty, vindictive and hate-filled as your posts. All you have done is to attack him personally for expressing an opinion, while not addressing any of his points in any way other than by telling him he’s a fuckwit.

            Get off your high horse – you add nothing to the discussion except your ignorant bigotry.

          • Non-Halal for Me!

            Exactly my point Wims!

          • Technocrat

            You should read it too because nothing he’s stated is false, unlike much of the non-factual opinions expressed by the rest.

          • Eugene Goostman

            Thanks Roland. I do “defend Islam”, from lies and ignorance. Which isn’t to say I don’t also criticise Islam when necessary, but more so, criticise those countries that use Islam as a blanket for hiding their human-rights abuses under.

            Saudi Arabia being one of the most egregious examples of that.

            What I do defend is that using the term “Islam” to tar nearly 2B people with is specious. Very few of them live a Wahabbist Arab life in Islam, most are moderate and most are, more importantly, poor.

            The view portrayed by people of Muslims all thinking and behaving alike is completely false. They are as different as any other race and nationality and to fail to acknowledge this is to descend into bigotry and hate, as exhibited by many on here.

          • Dieter Hubau

            all religion is only about control, doesn’t contribute anything to this world and will not advance the human race. Lets lose this “blanket” and rely on science and technology… CUNTS

          • Zootalaws

            Are you denying that South Africa had a skin-color-based policy of racial segregation implemented by the White minority on the black majority?

            It would seem, on the face of it, that he’s right.

            I’m always suspicious of people that try and excuse apartheid with “you didn’t live there” arguments.

            I didn’t live in Pol Pots Cambodia, either, but I know it was inimical to intellectuals-it doesn’t mean that only Cambodians can condemn it.

          • global city

            are you talking bout apartheid or multi culturalism, as in the end they both mean the same

          • Eugene Goostman

            If your political ideology is obtained from places like Stormfront, I can see why you think that.

            But for those with a more educated outlook, they are nothing alike, you are just wrong.

          • Jan Erik Kvalheim

            I’ve read your comments Eugene. Thanks for sharing your view. Interesting to read. Your effort is very much appreciated, especially against such a “barrage” of BS.

          • Technocrat

            No, they do not both mean the same:

            Apartheid: literally “apart-hood” – a system of racial segregation

            Multiculturalism: evolution of cultural diversity

            Separation by race is doing the very opposite of diversity.

          • PaD

            both ‘multi-culturalism and ‘diversity’ are inventions..and were never real…but the slavish devotion to the concepts promulgated by the left in and out of government have resulted in a massive rejection of those ideas…and a real antipathy towards those that hid behind them for their own political ends…one word;Rotherham

          • Technocrat

            Most social concepts are invention, but that is here nor there, evolution of concepts can be progressive guidance as well as natural adaptation. The point remains shared culture is better than silos of culture and isolationism.

            Two words: The Vatican

          • riccotelaly

            SA is Saudia Arabia
            gheesh

          • Anders Jackson

            The subject here is Saudi Arabia, not South Africa. So SA is Saudi Arabia, you moron.
            No, it isn’t about misiontrophy or pedophelia, it is about knowleged and narrow minded rasists and Islamophobic peoole that doesn’t care about facts.
            And no, Eugene has not argued for Man Chauvinism or Pedophilia. That is just your accusations based on your fantasy, which by your own logic would say a good deal about you. But I don’t think that, I just think you are desperate for arguments to suport your ignorance about the Islam world.
            Yes, there are huge problems I SA (Saudi Arabia for you), as Margot Walström pointed out. And also, she didn’t critizised Islam, she critizied the laws of SA. She critizised the interpretation of sharia in SA.

            And you seems desperately in need of someone like Eugenes type in your life, someone intellectual and open to facts. Who can have more than one opinion in the head at once. Whish you all luck in finding someone like that so you can learn something about life. Like there are no simple solutions in life, ad it is complicated.

          • Zootalaws

            To be fair, he did discuss apartheid in South Africa, but that was in reference to being called a racist for merely having the temerity to suggest that race had anything to do with the argument.

            It doesn’t change the fact that NHFM is a bigoted, nasty, ignorant person without anything to say other than spouting her racist hatred.

          • Non-Halal for Me!

            Blah Blah Blah *yawn*

          • Eugene Goostman

            Keeping you up, or is it just that anything more than a sentence long strains your ability to focus and sends you into a doze? Maybe you are suffering from something. We can only surmise.

          • Dieter Hubau

            What a troll :’)

          • PaD

            Have you heard of spell-check? it’s a really clever device that helps even the semi-literate.

          • flyingrhino

            your rabid hate and ignorance is evident in your screen name. point for gryffindor.

          • Eugene Goostman

            Is this your normal method for discourse? Can’t work out an actual argument, so throw out shit accusations of pedophilia, bestiality, misogyny.

            Of what you just exhibited wasn’t the actions of a hater, I don’t really know what you would call it. Disturbed? Delusional? Just fucking nasty?

            All of the above?

            It’s clear where the intellectual handicap is being exhibited.

          • global city

            your innate racism is exposed by your nauseating love of ‘the noble savage’ doctrine.

          • Eugene Goostman

            Did mommy pick you up a dictionary out of the trash while she was foraging?

          • global city

            at least I have taken the opportunity to use one.

          • Eugene Goostman

            The word salad you indulge in does nothing to further discussion or understanding. Just picking words at random is great at your spelling bee, but not so useful in debate.

          • global city

            Mmmmm, word salad, spelling bees!

            Your embarrassment at having your own racism pointed out is clear to everyone reading this thread. That’s fair enough, but continuing to highlight your own ‘thought crime’ by referring constantly back to posts that highlight it is not the best way to brush it under the carpet. I am a tad surprised that you have not resorted yet to the other racist old lefties trope about migrants bringing ‘colour’ to your own boring existence!

          • Zootalaws

            I’ve read the whole thread – where was he racist again? By calling apartheid a product of white South Africans? It wasn’t a product of the blacks, now, was it?

            Unless you think it’s racist to point out something that’s done only by people of one particular color? To me, that’s pointing out a fact.

            If he had said they did it BECAUSE they were white, that’s a different matter, but he didn’t. He said it was white South Africans that instigated apartheid – I think that’s well-documented in history.

            It would also be racist if he said it was ALL white South Africans that instigated apartheid, but he didn’t say that either.

            So, again, where was the racism?

          • global city

            you may have read the thread, but you didn’t understand it.

          • Eugene Goostman

            He did understand.

            He asked a simple question, which you can’t answer for the simple reason that you are unable to show that I was racist.

            Unless you can?

          • global city

            You fetishise foreigners because you feel that being inferior they need some principled support.

            That’s racist.

          • Eugene Goostman

            Really? Where did I do that, then?

            Show me or STFU, you mindless imbecile.

          • Technocrat

            Couldn’t you prove him/her wrong by citing the instances of racism, rather than ignoring is question. It’s just that every time you’re challenged on the racism point you avoid the question.

          • Eugene Goostman

            I’m not embarrassed in the least, and you haven’t shown any evidence of racism, all you have done is thrown shit, and when offered the opportunity to back up your shit-throwing, have been incapable of supporting your assertion.

          • riccotelaly

            says the racist

          • global city

            Wow! You used that slur so easily and glibly!
            Explain yourself?

          • riccotelaly

            It was easy so I said it it glibly – but you already knew that. So why ask?

          • global city

            I asked because I was curious as to the twisted idiocy in your thinking that led you to conclude that there was something in my post that betrayed my racism, seeing as you do not know me from Adam that is.

          • riccotelaly

            “Something…that betrayed my racism. ”
            So we agree. It drips from your posts. Read your posts … are you blind?

          • global city

            Seemingly…..little snowflakes can spot some sort of ism in almost anything, except for their own twisted fantasy views that is.

          • riccotelaly

            Is that how it seems? Multiculturism and apartheid are the same was your line. One provides equal access to the society to all person regardless of race, religion etc…

            Apartheid is the opposite of that. In your view Canada and South Africa are the same.

            You are extremely racist … It oozes out of everyone of your posts.

            The Muslim world certainly has problems not the least of which are western countries making sure secular societies can not flourish.

            You’re here to Islam bash while ignoring western culpability . Secular democratic countries in the Middle East are destroyed by the west so democracies can be installed but all we get is radical fundamentalism on the rise anywhere the USA has meddled.

            That is no mistake what the west is really up to.

            Brainless racist like you just ain’t smart enough to process the information available to all us of us.

            Don’t throw stones when living in glass houses.

            No fantasy here. Your a full blown arrogant racist.

          • Zachariah

            Nothing to do with the people living in Iraq and Iran then? Absolute whatabboutery of the highest order. I am not justifying Western intervention in those nations but to suggest that the West bears the greatest responsibility for the backward views of many inhabitants in those regions is farcical.

          • Eugene Goostman

            And yet you thought you knew enough about me to do the same.

            So bigotry AND racism AND hypocrisy, all in one neat package.

          • global city

            Nice of you to finally concede your racism and hypocrisy, to say nothing of the self flagellating bigotry!

          • Eugene Goostman

            What are you, a graduate of the PeeWee Herman school of debate? “I know you are, but what am I?”

            Grow up, you fool.

          • global city

            Ouch…assailed by ‘maturity’. That’s your trouble, you think you are a cultured man of the world when in reality your bleatings expose nothing more than a undergraduate agitprop swallower!

          • Anders Jackson

            Do you even bother to read what he writes or are you occupied to make up opinions that he has not expressed?
            No, all Muslims doesn’t think and behave the same There are many iterpretations of the religion, like it is many different of Christianity and Judaism.
            No, not all Islamic countries have the same laws and have the same interpretation of sharia laws or the Quran.
            And yes, Islam, Christianity and Judaism are basicly the same and belives in the same God.
            And yes, Christians circumcision boys and girls too. That is, abuses their children for no other reason then traditions.
            And yes, Christians “own” “their” women too. And “correct” them if them “shame their man”. Most violance against women are because of an offended man thinking he owns the woman, all ower the world.

          • Technocrat

            You keeping accusing people of racism but fail to point out the instances of racism. Seriously, perhaps you could quote the text in future that you see as racist.

          • WimsThePhoenix

            You really are worth hating.

          • Eugene Goostman

            You really are the worthy recipient of the title “Cuntrag”.

          • Jan Holtzhausen

            SA can also mean Saudi Arabia …. just sayin’

          • franta

            Eugene Goostman I cant help not to applaud another one of the “chosen” one’s self-indulging meanie statements amounting to a bloated cow’s gas-letting – keep it up Yougene, an Acidic Nobel Price for meanness and rhetoric is waiting just behind the corner for you 🙂 (As uneducated as I am – it could be Assidic…;-)

          • Dieter Hubau

            Internet wouldn’t be here if your version of “law” existed in the Western world, faggot

          • Anders Jackson

            And you Miss, are an anonymous hater, probably a xenophobuan too.

            Eugene are right, you know. And you would know that if you knew anything about religions and judged all religions and their folowers with the same standards.
            Yes, there are Christians that do what you Xenophobians rightly accuses some Muslims and Islamic countries do. But there you usually are able to make distinctions between the bd and good.
            So grow up, please. Use Internet to learn stuff, not just spread your hate. Use Wikipedia to fill those hole I your education you obviously have, I at least had basic religion orientation education I in 5th grade.

          • franta

            booo to you 4th grader 🙂

          • Dieter Hubau

            FUCK… ANY religion!!

          • Tyler

            We care about the plight of Muslim women who are degraded under Sharia law, knucklebutt.

          • Eugene Goostman

            Do you care about the US women degraded under your laws? Or do you deny that’s a problem?

          • WimsThePhoenix

            Deflection and failure to stick to the point. “What about” is a well known fallacy.

          • Discussguide

            Why on earth are you ragging in other countries in this. Now, its not OK, but this discussion is about Sharia laws in Saudi Arabia, grow up!!

          • Zootalaws

            Says the person who posted “Bla bla bla…yadi yadi yadi… zzz”

            Yeah, grown up. It’s so evident.

          • Johan Krüger Haglert

            What part of the US law system degrade women you feel?
            Feel free to tell.
            Do it for Sweden too.

          • riccotelaly

            OThe U.S. senate is against equal pay for women. Is that a start.

          • Johan Krüger Haglert

            As a juridical necessity?

            Equal pay just to be equal?
            Equal amount hired just to be equal?
            Equal ethnicity as the population just to be equal?

            I’m against that too. I don’t think anyone should be discriminated. For positive or negative advantages.

            I’ve seen on Swedish text-TV something like if women was paid fair salaries accounting for their educational level and how much they got done they would have 10% higher salaries than men.

            On the other hand I’ve also seen that companies with a female CEO had lower profit margins.

            And among billionaires can you guess which university grade is the most common?
            Economics? Art? Engineering?
            It’s none. As in none at all.

            Here in Sweden in jobs which typically have a female majority the men and women earn about the same (within 1%), so it’s already pretty equal there ..

            However the way I see it more of those jobs are in the public and health sector where lots of the later is public in Sweden. And salaries usually are lower there on average. And maybe they shouldn’t be.

            But rather than enforce equal amount of men in those areas and equal amount of women as chair..people I think focus should be on increased the salaries in the public sector (well, by design lots of the jobs may be trash no-one would spend their own money on so I guess those don’t deserve it, but for things like health-, elder- and child-care one could increase them) which would of course both affect both the women and the men in those areas and solve the actual problem rather than use discrimination.

          • PaD

            a few dollars less per hour versus stoning to death…mmm that’s a hard one

          • Barbarossa77

            How are women degraded in the US ? All people are created equal ,where as in islam from birth you are Brain washed into a belief system that controls your very being ..

          • Debra Wehrly

            Women are not degraded by any of the laws that govern the US or the west. Women have good lives here.

          • Eugene Goostman

            You are woefully underinformed.

          • UKSteve

            And you are ludicrously mistaken, it seems.

          • Saxo Grammaticus

            So you are saying that women aren’t degraded by ANY of the laws in the US or the West?

            Are you serious?

            And ‘ludicrously mistaken’? Is that your word salad du jour? I suspect you just threw that out, because if you had given it the least amount of thought, you would have come to the realisation that you don’t know every, most or even a lot of the laws of the US and the West, so making such a pronouncement is pretty much just plain ignorance.

            You want to check out laws relating to women in italy, Hungary and Poland, let alone recent legislation around abortion in many of the US states. Then maybe you can come back and make amends by way of an apology.

          • GarryMc

            Try showing care for the women killed by their estanged husbands too. Many more deaths there.

          • global city

            uh, oh…one of those simpering apologists

          • Eugene Goostman

            Simpering? Fucking hardly, you fetid rag.

          • global city

            yes…a simpering Marxist, who would no doubt be petty enough to remark on typos, even though he makes plenty himself!

            Now….feckoff you little eejit…..:)

          • Eugene Goostman

            Marxist? Is that the best you can do? On what evidence?

            And feel free to point out my typos – if you can find any.

            Sounds like you are punching above your weight, sunshine. Best you stay down in the amateur leagues where you belong.

          • global city

            Are you a pro? What the feck has the world come to? As I wrote above already, the stench of undergraduate wannabee intellect/activist hangs over e very one of your posts.

            I’m just amusing myself… you are getting really worked up over nothing. I was just posting on an internet site, YOU thought you were doing something important and significant. No doubt you think that everything you think and/or do is of massive significance to the whole world.

            You are wasting your time. Do something more important.

          • Eugene Goostman

            “I’m just amusing myself… you are getting really worked up over nothing.”

            Yeah, that’s obvious from the ignorant indignance dripping from your every post. Racism, bigotry, misogyny, classism – nothing is beyond the pale for you. You just keep kidding yourself that you do it in jest.

            If you could see every time I read another of your spluttering, ignorant posts. I shit better than you every morning, mate. You barely rate a raised eyebrow, let alone ‘worked up’. You flatter yourself.

            Yes, this grandfather, business-owner, engineer just reeks of “the stench of undergraduate wannabee intellect/activist”

            You have been wrong about everything you have posted so far, about Islam, about Shariah, about me.

            Best you go back to diddling amusing yourself – you might manage a result.

          • global city

            It is always fun to help a ‘progressive’ cotton on to their own contradictions… you really are squirming with indignation and embarrassment. Why not stop digging?

          • Eugene Goostman

            “you really are squirming with indignation ”

            I’m really laughing at the afflicted. You, in other words.

          • global city

            but you are not… and you know it. Pretentious hipster with the world-view of a student union wallah….and you’re an old man!

          • Eugene Goostman

            You have a seriously fucked-up opinion of your own opinion.

            I am none of what you describe. Not even remotely close. Not in the same continent, let alone ballpark.

            But I do laugh at your posts – a lot. You are so fucking dense and self-absorbed.

          • global city

            You overestimate your own genius. I don’t overestimate either yours or my own.

            Your original cultural Fisking is what I called out.You are too ignorant or ‘self absorbed’ to realise the stupidity of your assertion.

          • The Shambolic Skeptic

            The entire legal framework in Saudi is based on Sharia and approved by senior Imams specializing in Sharia. The legal frame work applies to everyone – non-Muslims are exempt from specific components.

          • Eugene Goostman

            That’s very interesting and would be more so, if I lived in SA. That’s their version of shariah, just as the Wahabbist doctrine they follow is their version of Islam.

            There’s isn’t applicable to any other country than their own.

            I find it a constant puzzle that people aren’t able to comprehend that, just as with Christianity and Buddhism, Islam is different in nearly every different Islamic country.

            Because, people are different, they interpret differently. If you look at most large Islamic countries, it is observed differently in different parts of the same country. Especially ones with differing ethnic groups, such as Afghanistan, Iraq, Somalia, Turkey, Indonesia, Iran, China, India, etc.

            Kurds observe differently to Druze, to Pashto, to Sufi, to Sunni and Shia. Indonesians in Aceh observe differently than Indonesians in Kalimantan or Java or Papua. And they all observe differently to Bangladeshis.

            Because they are different, with a different take on their religion.

          • Discussguide

            Bla bla bla, so flogging is OK?? yadi yadi yadi… zzz getting tired of your BS.

            You talk about things being different, yes, but does the difference make oppression OK!?

          • Eugene Goostman

            You grow up and learn to both read and hold a grown-up conversation and we can talk. Until then, go back to diddling yourself, or whatever else it was that you were doing.

          • Discussguide

            Im curious to know who needs to grow up!!??

          • Zootalaws

            I can make an educated guess…

          • Marlene van der Poll

            Eugene I am sorry you choose to argue like this.. You made your point earlier but I stopped listening when you resorted to vitriol.

          • Eugene Goostman

            You mean when I adopted the same tactics as those that have been throwing shit at me?

            Excuse me if I don’t cry a f*cking river that you stopped listening.

            Where was your protest against those that attacked me, rather than argued the points?

            I am sorry that the only thing you thought to contribute was to condemn me for defending myself.

          • Mary Ann

            Your comment about how Shariah laws works in Britain was very good, I think it would be better if you sat on your laurals and ignored the jibes of the less well informed.

          • Saxo Grammaticus

            Mate, don’t worry about it.

            You won’t change the mind of those ignorant bigots anyway – they aren’t capable of thinking outside their very narrow box…

          • Auntiemilibland

            To dislike Islam isn’t bigotry. It is, in the main, an informed choice and I dislike the very core of Islam. It is a hideous, barbaric method of control. It works in foreign lands far removed from the civilised west but when these barbarians prefer to move to the west rather than an Islamic country that’s when problems arise. How can westernised Islamic women be expected to agree to mutilation of their bodies, forced marriages, rapes and secularism, not to mention the appalling honour killings by parents who no longer carry any authority over their daughters? I have many friends in the Islamic community but they are far from happy with a religion forced on them, but to denounce it would mean being ostracised from their families and communities so they live a life of total drudgery. This is the 21st century and I notice the comments from a lot of male contributors are pro-Islam. How very sad you are, how very blinkered you are but most of all how wrong you are in promoting this murderous regime.

          • GarryMc

            ‘To dislike Islam isn’t bigotry.’ I agree. Where I differ with some is where it it a disguise for prejudice against Moslem people. I know some lovely Moslem people. And I am an atheist. When people don’t make that distinction, you see prejudice and intolerance, the very thing some of these people condemn.

          • Eugene Goostman

            It seems your ‘informed’ choice is far from being actually informed, more on a level with the Daily Mail idea of Islam.

          • PaD

            We’re ALL bored now Eugene…You should know that you will get comments that you won’t like…you need to come back to civilisation …it’s where crazy things are said…freely.

          • GarryMc

            You haven’t seen any Christian repression? Try sexual abuse of boys and girls in Canada, USA, Australia etc. If you’re looking for repression, you’ll find it in Christian private school and churches. Please, condemn both, and do something about it. You’ll be most effective pressuring people in your own country.

          • Discussguide

            Well, as stated before this discussion isnt about Christian idiots its about the opression in a specific country. Its totaly pointless saying… Oh, but they are also bad!!! Its like you are saying, “Oh, they are also bad so we can be bad aas well”. Really stupid point.

            Christian and Muslim religion is both based on a stupid belief in fairy tales so yes both should be condemned but… This is as stated before not a discussion about that!

          • Diane Moffatt

            It may happen but it is illegal and not enshrined in law.

          • GarryMc

            Of the twenty five or so ‘Moslem countries’, which, and in how many, is it enshrined in law?

          • Diane Moffatt

            I’m sorry – I thought this was about Saudi Arabia.

          • GarryMc

            No It is me who is sorry! I am used to fighting ranting maniacs who want to blame ALL moslems for what the few do.

          • Diane Moffatt

            That’s fine. I don’t know all Muslims. 😉

          • Anders Jackson

            It was original about sharia laws in general not wanted in Europe. So it was Sharia General and as if the fucked up sharia laws in SA are relevant to Europe or to any other Islamic country.
            The fucked up interpretation of Sharia laws in SA are a problem for people living in SA and should not be compared to other countries. It’s like death sentence is a problem in US and not in most other Western countries. Secular or Christians alike.

          • PaD

            how about we don’t give a fuck about barbarian codes of law…period

          • Anders Jackson

            Yes, like the ones in the Bible too, I assume.
            BUT sharia laws only is valid for muslims in secular countries, so as long as we do have freedom of religion, there are nobodies business what muslims do, as long as they follow the secular laws.

          • Aaron Hird

            I blame the religions for the indoctrinated bullshit and the widespread discrimination and oppression of others. islam, Christianity, Catholicism, Judaism, hindu, ancient gods, whatever… its all the same bullshit in the end.

          • Barbarossa77

            A small minority blown out of proportion by the left wing press , the west is based on christian values and the west is a way ahead of Islam in the 21st century only for oil money Saudi Arabia would be just a big dessert full of backward tribes and camels ..

          • GarryMc

            The West is based on Enlightenment Values of Liberty, Equality (equal before the Law) and Fraternite (variously called ‘community’, ‘tolerance’ ‘interdependence’ for the last 200 years. NOT Christian. Take away this three concepts, and the West is meaningless.

          • PaD

            community interdependence…COMMON PURPOSE

          • Eugene Goostman

            Do you get ice cream with that great big dessert?

          • Plutarchus

            LOL!!!! I’m ignorant? 50 million years ago, before its massive meltdown due to natural causes, Antarctica was where it is today and what it is today: a frozen, barren polar ice cap . BTW, I’ve been banned from Mediaite for my anti-warmunist postings.

            YALE NEWS

            l

            Today’s Antarctic region once as hot as California, Florida
            By Eric GershonApril 21, 2014

            Parts of ancient Antarctica were as warm as today’s California coast, and polar regions of the southern Pacific Ocean registered 21st-century Florida heat, according to scientists using a new way to measure past temperatures.

            The findings, published the week of April 21 in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, underscore the potential for increased warmth at Earth’s poles and the associated risk of melting polar ice and rising sea levels, the researchers said.

            Led by scientists at Yale, the study focused on Antarctica during the Eocene epoch, 40-50 million years ago, a period with high concentrations of atmospheric CO2 and consequently a greenhouse climate. Today, Antarctica is year-round one of the coldest places on Earth, and the continent’s interior is the coldest place, with annual average land temperatures far below zero degrees Fahrenheit.

            But it wasn’t always that way, and the new measurements can help improve climate models used for predicting future climate, according to co-author Hagit Affek of Yale, associate professor of geology & geophysics.

            “Quantifying past temperatures helps us understand the sensitivity of the climate system to greenhouse gases, and especially the amplification of global warming in polar regions,” Affek said.

            The paper’s lead author, Peter M.J. Douglas, performed the research as a graduate student in Affek’s Yale laboratory. He is now a postdoctoral scholar at the California Institute of Technology. The research team included paleontologists, geochemists, and a climate physicist.

            By measuring concentrations of rare isotopes in ancient fossil shells, the scientists found that temperatures in parts of Antarctica reached as high as 17 degrees Celsius (63F) during the Eocene, with an average of 14 degrees Celsius (57F) — similar to the average annual temperature off the coast of California today.

            Eocene temperatures in parts of the southern Pacific Ocean measured 22 degrees Centigrade (or about 72F), researchers said — similar to seawater temperatures near Florida today.

            Today the average annual South Pacific sea temperature near Antarctica is about 0 degrees Celsius.

            These ancient ocean temperatures were not uniformly distributed throughout the Antarctic ocean regions — they were higher on the South Pacific side of Antarctica — and researchers say this finding suggests that ocean currents led to a temperature difference.

            “By measuring past temperatures in different parts of Antarctica, this study gives us a clearer perspective of just how warm Antarctica was when the Earth’s atmosphere contained much more CO2 than it does today,” said Douglas. “We now know that it was warm across the continent, but also that some parts were considerably warmer than others. This provides strong evidence that global warming is especially pronounced close to the Earth’s poles. Warming in these regions has significant consequences for climate well beyond the high latitudes due to ocean circulation and melting of polar ice that leads to sea level rise.”

            To determine the ancient temperatures, the scientists measured the abundance of two rare isotopes bound to each other in fossil bivalve shells collected by co-author Linda Ivany of Syracuse University at Seymour Island, a small island off the northeast side of the Antarctic Peninsula. The concentration of bonds between carbon-13 and oxygen-18 reflect the temperature in which the shells grew, the researchers said. They combined these results with other geo-thermometers and model simulations.

            The new measurement technique is called carbonate clumped isotope thermometry.

            “We managed to combine data from a variety of geochemical techniques on past environmental conditions with climate model simulations to learn something new about how the Earth’s climate system works under conditions different from its current state,” Affek said. “This combined result provides a fuller picture than either approach could on its own.”

            The paper is titled “Pronounced zonal heterogeneity in Eocene southern high-latitude sea surface temperatures.”

            Other co-authors are Alexander J. P. Houben, Willem P. Sijp, Appy Sluijs, Stefan Schouten, and Mark Pagani.

            Support for the research was provided by the National Science Foundation, Statoil, and the European Research Council.

          • LittleRedRidingHood

            They are doing/have done something about that otherwise you wouldn’t be aware of it. To be honest, you’ll find it anywhere regardless of colour or creed. However, you can’t publicly condemn Islamic child abuse can you without being branded by the brainwashed liberals.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            Of course you can. Of course, as you obviously don’t care about other child abuse…

          • LittleRedRidingHood

            Beg your pardon? Not sure how you come to that conclusion. But saying that, it is late and little Johnny needs his sleep so you are excused.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            Not granted. Your type of extremist is clearly a physical danger to others. As you don’t understand basic logic, as you talk about your personalities and try and threaten me badly again…

          • LittleRedRidingHood

            Your comprehension as I’ve said before is questionable at best.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            You’ve demanded you control my mind, right.

          • LittleRedRidingHood

            And I will succeed bwahhaahhaaa!

            Oh hang on, I didn’t demand that…. Damn! That would have been fun.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            So you’re denying your own post once more then.
            And mind control is creepy.

          • LittleRedRidingHood

            See what I mean? “You deny your posts” It’s your catchphrase.
            I’m sure people are willing you to make a point, any point.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            So, you think you mind control “people”. As you demand I be stab-crazy like you.

            As you call facts a “catchphrase”.

          • LittleRedRidingHood

            I “mind control people”
            Bwahhhaaaahhaaa psml!
            Look into my eyes…..

          • Leon Wolfeson

            Psst, you’re looking at the reflection of your own eyes.

            And yes, you’re that kind of funny it seems.

          • LittleRedRidingHood

            Ha ha, if you had a sense If humour you’d be dangerous.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            So, you call me dangerous. Without cause. Unsurprisingly.

          • LittleRedRidingHood

            Key word was “if”

            I’ll let you work out the rest.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            Yes, I know, you’re trying to evade outright libel.

          • LittleRedRidingHood

            Haha, another word of which the meaning escapes you.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            Ah, so you think you can change word’s meanings on the fly, so other people can’t use them, or that words are physical things…

          • LittleRedRidingHood

            I’m bored of “ah so” now. Can you change it to “nah then?
            Anyway. You’ve exhausted your usefulness and sense in this thread. I’m sure you’ll rear you head again in other threads. Ta Ta

          • Leon Wolfeson

            That’s right, you keep saying you control others, as you whine about the existence of other views.

          • LittleRedRidingHood

            Ha ha, bye bye.

          • Saxo Grammaticus

            I don’t know that I’ve come across such a nasty response to such an eminently measured comment before.

            His post was a call for thought, yours was a stunning example of a complete lack of it.

            What a twat you are.

          • Johan Krüger Haglert

            It’s varying degrees of shit everywhere though.

          • Eugene Goostman

            That could be said about every system of governance, everywhere.

            Look at the shambles in the US at the moment.

          • Guest

            Of course it is.

            Currently Sweden has weak defense and has 8 tanks on Gotland but no standing army there and likely little other defense and Gotland sit in the middle of the Baltic sea and Russia only got their harbor in the east and the enclave Kaliningrad between Latvia(NATO)/Belarus(CIS) and Poland(NATO) which likely is heavily defended but still separate from the rest of their country.

            Russia got a gas pipeline going through the Baltic sea outside the Swedish border in the area.

            Anyway. The Swedish government fail with their most simple tasks of ruling a nation as there’s really no border control either from a military perspective or from a movements perspective and the later is the biggest problem because I don’t think Russia is the largest danger for Sweden.

            Last year 126 000 people immigrated to Sweden, with a population of 9.67 million. Sweden has had 0.2% GDP growth / capita and year 2007-2013, has dropped in Human development index from #6 2006, #7 2007 to #12 (the actual number is decreasing too.)

            Kinda all areas in this city has got more immigrants 2013 vs 1991 and with that the average salaries has went down a lot. In Malmö the larger city with the most immigrants (50+% has a foreign background) the average salary is 200 000+ SEK whereas it in the country as a whole is 260 000+.
            20+ years ago 5% failed school, now 13% do so, in this city (Örebro) 18% do it. In the most immigrant filled schools I think the numbers are closer to 3/4s or so.

            Anyway. If we were attacked and someone started to move their people here like Israel do on the Gaza strip that wouldn’t be considered ok. But as is these people come here mostly by permission from our government, if nothing else they let it happen (1/3 of those who are supposed to be deported don’t leave, some people think it’s just right to hide them anyway.)

            In the end our country is taken over “by our will”, or rather the will of the ruling leaders and media. There’s lies on the situation (like claims that we’re gaining from it, gaining in what way? rape cases? robbery? car burns? In our hearts? In total taxes even though there’s many more to spend the money on? Because for sure the average Swede won’t earn on it in their own wallet and likely not out in the community either.)

            The claim is that ~300 people will have left Sweden to “fight jihad” mostly in Syria but then there’s the guys and women you don’t know about. It’s not even illegal as it is. If you come back and want to go away again that’s fine for now.

            The threat is real because if I want to fight Islamisation of my country I surely risk my own well-being since that’s how Islam and Muslims work.

            So our governance is shit and is ruining our own self-rule, our society and enforce the idiotic idea of multi-culturalism upon us (yeah, just see how well Jews and Muslims live together in Palestine/Israel, or Shiia and Sunni in Iraq, or fundamentalist Muslims and more moderate ones, Or IS and the Yazidi, or Turks and Kurds, or ..)

            The system is suicidal and the claims of “white-genocide” is kinda true even though Sweden is an extreme country in this case and the skin color likely don’t have much to do with it. The problem is the difference in culture and will and values there and that we’re promising well-fare for everyone.

            The difference through this and Islam though is that this is a reasoned system. Some idiot thought this was a good idea. In some other countries like in Denmark they have decided it’s not. The countries are all on some scale from suicidal to racist.

            But Islam is what it is and the book won’t be changed and at least some people will be against reforming it and their behavior.

            Wikipedia:
            “The Age of Enlightenment (or simply the Enlightenment, or Age of Reason) is an era from the 1650s to the 1780s in which cultural and intellectual forces in Western Europe emphasized reason, analysis, and individualism rather than traditional lines of authority. It was promoted by philosophes and local thinkers in urban coffee houses, salons, and Masonic lodges. It challenged the authority of institutions that were deeply rooted in society, such as the Catholic Church; there was much talk of ways to reform society with toleration, science and skepticism.”

            I guess chances are the middle-east will have their too. As is the darker side of fundamentalism and non-progression and religious rule since to have the upper hand, whatever that’s what people want I don’t know and I don’t know what the end result would be. If that lose I guess maybe the rest of society wont want that to happen again.

            Tunisia and Egypt for instance has banned the Muslim Brotherhood which likely is in an attempt to modernize the countries.

            So at least some are trying. Whatever that’s in line with Islam or “even though it” though ..

            To me as a westerner with little knowledge of the area (but with a stock fund in Turkey before) Turkey seemed like the brighter point of the area and showing great economical development. But with your PM being Conservative / religious. Of course Israel stands out in the region as a working democracy where ideas seem to have been tolerated at least but where racism and keeping the non-Jews out seem to have gained traction. And there’s Tunisia which has tried to become more westernized / European and of course over in Asia Indonesia which do some weird things but where the fundamentalists haven’t taken over.

            But the foundation and nasty parts of the religion seem to always spring up and remind people of itself.

            In Sweden we’ve had over 200 years without a war.
            We’ve had an equal and stable society and relative much of the world it still is.
            The economical equality is decreasing though and society isn’t at all stable and safe in the areas with the most immigrants.
            Many of themselves claim it is but it’s relative and may be vs their homes and for them and not the rest of the society. Some people in the areas don’t feel safe though (like some Turkish lady who ran a store in some area which were considering moving back to Turkey because she didn’t liked it here any longer, or the Jews who have stopped going to their Jewish school because it doesn’t feel safe.)

          • Eugene Goostman

            Tl:dr As well as being irrelevant

          • Johan Krüger Haglert

            Of course it is.

            Currently Sweden has weak defense and has 8 tanks on Gotland but no standing army there and likely little other defense and Gotland sit in the middle of the Baltic sea and Russia only got their harbor in the east and the enclave Kaliningrad between Latvia(NATO)/Belarus(CIS) and Poland(NATO) which likely is heavily defended but still separate from the rest of their country.

            Russia got a gas pipeline going through the Baltic sea outside the Swedish border in the area.

            Anyway. The Swedish government fail with their most simple tasks of ruling a nation as there’s really no border control either from a military perspective or from a movements perspective and the later is the biggest problem because I don’t think Russia is the largest danger for Sweden.

            Last year 126 000 people immigrated to Sweden, with a population of 9.67 million. Sweden has had 0.2% GDP growth / capita and year 2007-2013, has dropped in Human development index from #6 2006, #7 2007 to #12 (the actual number is decreasing too.)

            Kinda all areas in this city has got more immigrants 2013 vs 1991 and with that the average salaries has went down a lot. In Malmö the larger city with the most immigrants (50+% has a foreign background) the average salary is 200 000+ SEK whereas it in the country as a whole is 260 000+.
            20+ years ago 5% failed school, now 13% do so, in this city (Örebro) 18% do it. In the most immigrant filled schools I think the numbers are closer to 3/4s or so.

            Anyway. If we were attacked and someone started to move their people here like Israel do on the Gaza strip that wouldn’t be considered ok. But as is these people come here mostly by permission from our government, if nothing else they let it happen (1/3 of those who are supposed to be deported don’t leave, some people think it’s just right to hide them anyway.)

            In the end our country is taken over “by our will”, or rather the will of the ruling leaders and media. There’s lies on the situation (like claims that we’re gaining from it, gaining in what way? rape cases? robbery? car burns? In our hearts? In total taxes even though there’s many more to spend the money on? Because for sure the average Swede won’t earn on it in their own wallet and likely not out in the community either.)

            The claim is that ~300 people will have left Sweden to “fight jihad” mostly in Syria but then there’s the guys and women you don’t know about. It’s not even illegal as it is. If you come back and want to go away again that’s fine for now.

            The threat is real because if I want to fight Islamisation of my country I surely risk my own well-being since that’s how Islam and Muslims work.

            So our governance is shit and is ruining our own self-rule, our society and enforce the idiotic idea of multi-culturalism upon us (yeah, just see how well Jews and Muslims live together in Palestine/Israel, or Shiia and Sunni in Iraq, or fundamentalist Muslims and more moderate ones, Or IS and the Yazidi, or Turks and Kurds, or ..)

            The system is suicidal and the claims of “white-genocide” is kinda true even though Sweden is an extreme country in this case and the skin color likely don’t have much to do with it. The problem is the difference in culture and will and values there and that we’re promising well-fare for everyone.

            The difference through this and Islam though is that this is a reasoned system. Some idiot thought this was a good idea. In some other countries like in Denmark they have decided it’s not. The countries are all on some scale from suicidal to racist.

            But Islam is what it is and the book won’t be changed and at least some people will be against reforming it and their behavior.

            Wikipedia:
            “The Age of Enlightenment (or simply the Enlightenment, or Age of Reason) is an era from the 1650s to the 1780s in which cultural and intellectual forces in Western Europe emphasized reason, analysis, and individualism rather than traditional lines of authority. It was promoted by philosophes and local thinkers in urban coffee houses, salons, and Masonic lodges. It challenged the authority of institutions that were deeply rooted in society, such as the Catholic Church; there was much talk of ways to reform society with toleration, science and skepticism.”

            I guess chances are the middle-east will have their too. As is the darker side of fundamentalism and non-progression and religious rule since to have the upper hand, whatever that’s what people want I don’t know and I don’t know what the end result would be. If that lose I guess maybe the rest of society wont want that to happen again.

            Tunisia and Egypt for instance has banned the Muslim Brotherhood which likely is in an attempt to modernize the countries.

            So at least some are trying. Whatever that’s in line with Islam or “even though it” though ..

            To me as a westerner with little knowledge of the area (but with a stock fund in Turkey before) Turkey seemed like the brighter point of the area and showing great economical development. But with your PM being Conservative / religious. Of course Israel stands out in the region as a working democracy where ideas seem to have been tolerated at least but where racism and keeping the non-Jews out seem to have gained traction. And there’s Tunisia which has tried to become more westernized / European and of course over in Asia Indonesia which do some weird things but where the fundamentalists haven’t taken over.

            But the foundation and nasty parts of the religion seem to always spring up and remind people of itself.

            In Sweden we’ve had over 200 years without a war.
            We’ve had an equal and stable society and relative much of the world it still is.
            The economical equality is decreasing though and society isn’t at all stable and safe in the areas with the most immigrants.
            Many of themselves claim it is but it’s relative and may be vs their homes and for them and not the rest of the society. Some people in the areas don’t feel safe though (like some Turkish lady who ran a store in some area which were considering moving back to Turkey because she didn’t liked it here any longer, or the Jews who have stopped going to their Jewish school because it doesn’t feel safe.)

            http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/nov/24/turkeys-president-recep-tayyip-erdogan-women-not-equal-men
            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XMAfCFTwv3o 1:19 in is the turkish woman.
            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ie8JAXv50OI
            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D89zkPtRdcQ
            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3KYNq83sqeM
            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gGbnsu284xU
            Can’t find the clip I’m looking for (or well, the turkish woman is there.)

            I’m looking for some Iraqis in a Swedish sub-urb who say “same Iraq” when they are asked if they don’t feel safe here / where they are.

          • Eugene Goostman

            Tl:dr

          • Johan Krüger Haglert

            (Just to add username where-ever this reply was in the first place, you ignore this.)

            Of course it is.

            Currently Sweden has weak defense and has 8 tanks on Gotland but no standing army there and likely little other defense and Gotland sit in the middle of the Baltic sea and Russia only got their harbor in the east and the enclave Kaliningrad between Latvia(NATO)/Belarus(CIS) and Poland(NATO) which likely is heavily defended but still separate from the rest of their country.

            Russia got a gas pipeline going through the Baltic sea outside the Swedish border in the area.

            Anyway. The Swedish government fail with their most simple tasks of ruling a nation as there’s really no border control either from a military perspective or from a movements perspective and the later is the biggest problem because I don’t think Russia is the largest danger for Sweden.

            Last year 126 000 people immigrated to Sweden, with a population of 9.67 million. Sweden has had 0.2% GDP growth / capita and year 2007-2013, has dropped in Human development index from #6 2006, #7 2007 to #12 (the actual number is decreasing too.)

            Kinda all areas in this city has got more immigrants 2013 vs 1991 and with that the average salaries has went down a lot. In Malmö the larger city with the most immigrants (50+% has a foreign background) the average salary is 200 000+ SEK whereas it in the country as a whole is 260 000+.
            20+ years ago 5% failed school, now 13% do so, in this city (Örebro) 18% do it. In the most immigrant filled schools I think the numbers are closer to 3/4s or so.

            Anyway. If we were attacked and someone started to move their people here like Israel do on the Gaza strip that wouldn’t be considered ok. But as is these people come here mostly by permission from our government, if nothing else they let it happen (1/3 of those who are supposed to be deported don’t leave, some people think it’s just right to hide them anyway.)

            In the end our country is taken over “by our will”, or rather the will of the ruling leaders and media. There’s lies on the situation (like claims that we’re gaining from it, gaining in what way? rape cases? robbery? car burns? In our hearts? In total taxes even though there’s many more to spend the money on? Because for sure the average Swede won’t earn on it in their own wallet and likely not out in the community either.)

            The claim is that ~300 people will have left Sweden to “fight jihad” mostly in Syria but then there’s the guys and women you don’t know about. It’s not even illegal as it is. If you come back and want to go away again that’s fine for now.

            The threat is real because if I want to fight Islamisation of my country I surely risk my own well-being since that’s how Islam and Muslims work.

            So our governance is shit and is ruining our own self-rule, our society and enforce the idiotic idea of multi-culturalism upon us (yeah, just see how well Jews and Muslims live together in Palestine/Israel, or Shiia and Sunni in Iraq, or fundamentalist Muslims and more moderate ones, Or IS and the Yazidi, or Turks and Kurds, or ..)

            The system is suicidal and the claims of “white-genocide” is kinda true even though Sweden is an extreme country in this case and the skin color likely don’t have much to do with it. The problem is the difference in culture and will and values there and that we’re promising well-fare for everyone.

            The difference through this and Islam though is that this is a reasoned system. Some idiot thought this was a good idea. In some other countries like in Denmark they have decided it’s not. The countries are all on some scale from suicidal to racist.

            But Islam is what it is and the book won’t be changed and at least some people will be against reforming it and their behavior.

            Wikipedia:
            “The Age of Enlightenment (or simply the Enlightenment, or Age of Reason) is an era from the 1650s to the 1780s in which cultural and intellectual forces in Western Europe emphasized reason, analysis, and individualism rather than traditional lines of authority. It was promoted by philosophes and local thinkers in urban coffee houses, salons, and Masonic lodges. It challenged the authority of institutions that were deeply rooted in society, such as the Catholic Church; there was much talk of ways to reform society with toleration, science and skepticism.”

            I guess chances are the middle-east will have their too. As is the darker side of fundamentalism and non-progression and religious rule since to have the upper hand, whatever that’s what people want I don’t know and I don’t know what the end result would be. If that lose I guess maybe the rest of society wont want that to happen again.

            Tunisia and Egypt for instance has banned the Muslim Brotherhood which likely is in an attempt to modernize the countries.

            So at least some are trying. Whatever that’s in line with Islam or “even though it” though ..

            To me as a westerner with little knowledge of the area (but with a stock fund in Turkey before) Turkey seemed like the brighter point of the area and showing great economical development. But with your PM being Conservative / religious. Of course Israel stands out in the region as a working democracy where ideas seem to have been tolerated at least but where racism and keeping the non-Jews out seem to have gained traction. And there’s Tunisia which has tried to become more westernized / European and of course over in Asia Indonesia which do some weird things but where the fundamentalists haven’t taken over.

            But the foundation and nasty parts of the religion seem to always spring up and remind people of itself.

            In Sweden we’ve had over 200 years without a war.
            We’ve had an equal and stable society and relative much of the world it still is.
            The economical equality is decreasing though and society isn’t at all stable and safe in the areas with the most immigrants.
            Many of themselves claim it is but it’s relative and may be vs their homes and for them and not the rest of the society. Some people in the areas don’t feel safe though (like some Turkish lady who ran a store in some area which were considering moving back to Turkey because she didn’t liked it here any longer, or the Jews who have stopped going to their Jewish school because it doesn’t feel safe.)

          • GarryMc

            Yeh. I think I like the Swedes, not spending buckets of money on weaponry.

          • Discussguide

            Dont se the problem, its pretty nice here…

          • Johan Krüger Haglert

            Great comment.
            Really explains a lot of things and give me a lot to reply too ..
            But here you have a few:
            * Imported terrorism.
            * Imported warriors going to fight wars abroad.
            * Rape.
            * Robbery.
            * Murder.
            * Limited freedom of speech.
            * Religion stepping back into society.
            * Islamization.
            * Some topics no longer allowed to be published or discussed.
            * Lowered press freedom.
            * Stagnant growth.
            * More littering.
            * Lowered school results.
            * Likely result higher taxes, lower pensions.

            Unsafer, poorer, less free – YAY!

          • Discussguide

            Do you like the PK-press?

          • Johan Krüger Haglert

            Also for anyone from a shit country of course Sweden will seem nice anyway.
            Because they are comparing to shit.
            Now I don’t know who you are..
            Personally I live close to lot of immigrants and I’ve though that was ok too. Sure there has been some killing and rapes here so I guess really it’s not. But in general it’s just families with kids posing no threat.
            But there’s the different side to it where some of the most vocal multicultural propaganda people may not actually live with it. And hence of course they may not notice it much / don’t see how it’s in other places of the town or country.
            There’s of course also the places where most people are immigrants and they may defend and think their area is ok too because as said they compare to shit.

          • Mr_Twister

            Well……can’t argue with your take on the US…… I wonder what the Muslim in chief thinks about it?

          • http://amarllyis.wordpress.com/ amarllyis

            You seem to be the only sensible person on this thread. God knows we need more like you.

          • Barbarossa77

            ISIS have being breed from the Saudi form of islam that is in most Muslim countries funded by Saudi Arabia to use as a weapon in their aim to spread their evil form of Islam that is no better than Nazi Germany ..

          • Debra Wehrly

            That is why in the west, we are governed by secular laws. There is a separation of church and state. People are free to believe what they like and practice whatever religion they choose, however, the laws that they are governed by are secular. I would not want to live any way else.

          • Eugene Goostman

            in every one of your posts so far you have proven yourself to be poorly educated on the subject.

            I would suggest you either spend some time learning or just shut up and let those familiar with the subject matter continue their discussion.

          • PaD

            I would suggest you allow this person her opinion..and dont be so fucking rude.
            also she is 100% right in what she said

          • Aaron Hird

            thankyou for making the point for us.

            the am seems to be ‘interpreted’ differently and enforced differently in different regions is really all the evidence needed to prove that its all bs. if it was legitimate, if it really was ‘the word of god’, then it would ALL be practised the SAME way.

            but its not. clearly its all about whoever has the ear of the people, manipulating the scriptures to suit their own agenda.

            again showing that religion is just a tool for control of the masses and nothing more.

            and I say the same for all religion, because its the same in all cases, manipulated and used purely as tool for increasing ones own power and influence by increasing ones position of control over others.

            after all, who needs money when you can demand and receive anything you want?

            make no mistake. religion is an abuse of the humanity we all share. things like teaching a child ‘if you steal that icecream god will send you to hell to be tortured for eternity by demons!’ should be considered child abuse. if you were heard to tell your child ‘if you steal that icecream im gonna lock you in the basement and torture you for the rest of your life’ you would be labelled a sociopath, a child abuser, a heinous sadistic person. funny how putting the word ‘god’ in makes things ok… right?

          • PaD

            and I say the same for all religion,

            No branch of Christianity promotes stoning people to death

          • Aaron Hird

            not today maybe lol.

            but they had their run.

          • Aaron Hird

            not today…

            but once, long ago, it was as much a part of Christian principles as it is for islam today. after all they all originated in the same place, in much the same environments, and stoning in the middle eastern regions is older than the story of Christ itself!

          • LittleRedRidingHood

            But Eugene, Sharia extends further than civil matters such as divorce or family disputes doesn’t it?
            Please provide a short list of “Criminal” misdemeanors and punishment within sharia. Then we can compare apples with apples.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            So you ignore the law of the UK. Right.

          • LittleRedRidingHood

            Leon, you are tiresome. Don’t you have a family gathering to get to with your dad/uncle, wife/cousin?
            Address the point or don’t comment at all.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            Those tiresome facts.

            “SILENCE, JEW” you scream. I did address the point of course – your ignoring the law of the UK, one of your many enemies.

          • LittleRedRidingHood

            Nope, don’t see where I typed any of that. Keep dreaming fella.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            So you deny your own posts.

          • LittleRedRidingHood

            Broken record. Tell me which posts.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            If someone replies to a post, they’re replying to that post. See how that works?

            So, go back, see where I said you were denying a post…and it’s the post I was replying to.
            See, simple, Mr. Two Planks Short of a Biscuit.

            (YES THAT IS SARCASM)

          • LittleRedRidingHood

            Now your playing. Welcome to the game.
            Problem is “you deny your post” is a bit of a catchphrase of yours.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            Ah, so you think you’ve trapped me or whatever. As you have problems.

          • LittleRedRidingHood

            He Heh, your move!

          • Eugene Goostman

            You miss the point – there is no such thing as a universal ‘Shariah’ set of laws. Every country has their own interpretation, their own level of adherence to Shariah.

            I don’t live in Saudi Arabia, I have no idea of the extent of their Shariah – except that there are many in their country that are exempt, as is the Sultan of Brunei (who is apparently infallible and thus, above any laws).

            This gives you a good idea of the spread and level of integration of Shariah – you will note that the number of countries where Shariah is fully-adopted as the main legal system is very much in the minority within Islam.

            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Application_of_sharia_law_by_country

          • LittleRedRidingHood

            I have no problem with your point but let me refine mine. Sharia has no place within the UK. Neither does any other law, civil or not that is not mandated by parliament. That extends to all including the Jewish, druid or whatever else.

          • Eugene Goostman

            That’s YOUR opinion. For many of the nearly 3M UK Muslims, they welcome the ability to access Shariah courts.

            What does it matter to you if they, or Rabbinical courts, exist? They don’t affect you, aren’t compulsory and require the acuquiecense of both parties in order to deliver a ruling.

            It’s like men being against the sale of bras. It really has nothing to do with you.

          • LittleRedRidingHood

            The nearly 5 million UK Muslims may welcome being able access sharia courts but the danger is, as you well know, that this may be the precursor to more and more areas of legislation being conceded to that particular system.
            The systems are already in place why introduce a parallel system?

          • Eugene Goostman

            So you are freaking out about a hypothetical situation that can’t actually ever happen?

            Do you know about the legislation surrounding the use of ecclesiastical, including rabbinical and shariah, courts in the UK?

            Are you aware of how long the UK has had ‘alternative’ types of court and how many there are?

            The Beth Din has been in the UK for more than two centuries, the scope of which is almost identical to that of Shariah – they are more similar than they are different.

            English law states that any third party can be agreed by two sides to arbitrate in a dispute – this allows for all manner of ecclesiastical courts and for such institutions as labour relations courts, tribunals, etc.

            They have no oversight over criminal law and there is no way that will change without a major shift in UK law.

          • LittleRedRidingHood

            People said women would never get the vote, or gay marriage be legal yet here we are.
            Of course it is possible plonker!

          • PaD

            Beth Din and whoever else youre so well informed about arent trying to fucking blow us up while yelling ALLUAH aKBAR

          • Dieter Hubau

            So you have no way of enforcing your law? Since most of your punishments will be not tolerated by the UK law? How will it work then? Wont everyone just say, fuck it, you cant hurt me, fuck sharia law?

          • Saxo Grammaticus

            You are pretty ignorant about the subject.

            Do some research.

          • Dieter Hubau

            So if a UK muslim wishes to be trialed by Sharia court, and he is sentenced to, let’s say, 200 lashes for doing something wrong, he is willfully gonna take it? (even though this wouldnt be enforceable since torture is outlawed in the UK)

            Just wondering

            And a UK muslim woman, that was raped by, lets say, 3 men, would be sentenced to lashes because she was indecent for not being accompagnied by a male, is just gonna take it?

            And what about another part of Sharia, which mandates that all infidels must either be killed or converted, so that all can become part of your retarded, piece-of-shit religion?

            ALL religion is being used for one thing: Control.

            Last thing im gonna say about it, coz you’re clearly trolling everyone, retarded little cuntbag

          • Saxo Grammaticus

            A post like that and you accuse him of trolling?

            Shariah courts in the UK are only available for civil matters.

            Do some basic research before letting your ignorance shine through.

          • PaD

            except for their universal opposition to cartoons

          • http://www.parentpower.eu Janice Williams

            Clearly you are not a woman and don’t even think about how Shariah affects us. There have been real and serious attempts to get Shariah introduced in Britain as an option, I attended debate about it in a committee room at the House of Commons. Why not take a look in the mirror and see if you like what you see?

          • Eugene Goostman

            And just how much did you know about the subject after you attended the debate? Are you as concerned about the rabbinical courts that have been operating in the UK for decades? And if not, why not?

            And how does an Anglo Brit, in the UK, get affected by shariah?

            I also followed the debates – most of your MPs were as uninformed and emotive on the subject as you are.

          • Technocrat

            “There have been real and serious attempts to get Shariah introduced in Britain”

            Oh please. When? I will bet you cannot provide a single instance to support that claim. There has never been any such attempt. You may have attended a debate about Sharia Law, but there never has been a debate about introducing it.

            Sharia Law is exercised privately only within Islamic communities and is overridden by the laws of the land. And the only times Islamic communities resort to Sharia laws is to address things like Islamic marriages etc. Unless you are Muslim, it would not even apply to you. There has never been any attempt to introduce it alongside the UK legal framework.

          • WimsThePhoenix

            As I live and breathe, a muslim sock puppet.

          • lovespherepoet

            Mosaic Law and Sharia Law are derived from the same base. The interpretation, however, is up to the Rabbi, Imam, or Minister, and his/her followers. The largest predominantly Muslim country in the world, Indonesia, has a female Prime Minister. Golda Meir was Israel’s first PM. Not every Protestant church is fundamentalist. In nations and communities where the government is based in religious fundamentalism of any kind, you have a strong chance of tyranny taking over.

          • Eugene Goostman

            Presactly!

          • chris60

            Perhaps the problem lies with patriarchal authoritarian preferences as women are treated shabbily in countries where they are perceived as inferior to men. This problem is global; however, the West does try to implement laws to rectify the social disregard for women. Australia allows rapists off on bond to rape again or rape and murder. And women who try to press rape charges tend to be violated again by the system. But rape victims are not forced to marry their rapist or ordered to death for shaming their family. Sharia law appears extreme and ultra-biased against women.

          • Eugene Goostman

            “But rape victims are not forced to marry their rapist or ordered to death for shaming their family. ”

            And they aren’t in most Muslim countries – just the crazy Wahabbist ones.

            That behaviour is more an Arab trait than a Muslim one.

          • chris60

            Such attitudes also exist in South Africa and Turkey to name only a few countries that are not essentially Wahabbist or Arab. Wahabbists are Muslims and Arabs are predominantly Muslim, and the Middle-Eastern style of government tends to be patriarchal authoritarian. The Macho tough guy who rules with an iron fist is admired.

            The prevailing notion that women are inferior objects to serve men extends into many Western and non-Muslim homes where rape and abuse of females is justified by men as well, but is not legally or culturally sanctioned. Where fundamentalist religious beliefs corrupt legal rights and political decisions, women are not treated fairly. Google honor killings and brace yourself for a shock. Such killings are also occurring in Western countries, but again, the law and government do not condone such a practice.

            Mind you, I do agree that violence against women extends beyond the boundaries of Muslim countries to many non-Muslim nations. To scapegoat Saudi and Muslims denies the fact that violence against women is an international problem. Unfortunately, the legal, political, cultural and religious systems in Saudi tend to normalise the segregation of women as second class citizens. This is the truth often denied by fundamentalism and patriarchy. Women suffer under such regimes.

          • Eugene Goostman

            “Such attitudes also exist in South Africa and Turkey to name only a few countries that are not essentially Wahabbist or Arab.”

            So in South Africa they are forced to marry their rapist? And in Turkey?

            Please, keep to the point. Yes, there are misogynists all over. Yes, there are autocrats that rule their families with a fist of iron, but the subject was victims being forced to marry their rapist. That’s very much an Arab Muslim thing. Try telling a Pashtun or Kurd that their raped daughter needs to marry her rapist. You might have to be quick on your feet.

            “Sharia law appears extreme and ultra-biased against women.”

            That certainly isn’t a stricture in Shariah – you are conflating, again

          • chris60

            The real problem is that some people impose Sharia law in the West under the guise that this is “normal and just” at home. Despite living in Australia, I know of men from Egypt, Iraq and Serbia who felt entitled to beat or murder their wives for daring to leave them as this was common practice where in their homeland. Try telling an enraged assailant that his law does not apply to you when he decides to attack. It is not to do with your own consciousness but an awareness of the potential consciousness of those around you as well. Sharia law poses a risk when those around you approve of it despite living in New York or Melbourne.

          • Technocrat

            “Try telling an enraged assailant that his law does not apply to you when he decides to attack.”

            Try telling any assailant they are breaking the law.

          • Eugene Goostman

            “as this was common practice where in their homeland. ”

            But still illegal.

            I’m sure there are Australian men that murder their wives too.

          • Wesley Dodds

            There are obviously a broad range of interpretations based on circumstances, “Eugene.” But given your screen name, Eugene Goostman,are you a chatterbot or a human being? I would guess the latter. As mindless as computers are, they rarely are that deliberately rude, unless programmed that way.

          • Technocrat

            It would be great if you had a point to add to the debate rather than attacking screen names, “Wesley”.

          • Eugene Goostman

            If I am rude, it is in reply to asswipes that choose to make it personal, rather than debate rationally.

            Just like you did, you fetid cuntrag.

          • Harish

            Indeed! Lets hope that in the near future you get accused (even falsely) of Blasphemy in the great country that you live in.

          • Eugene Goostman

            Lets hope? What kind of an asshole are you?

            Why would I be accused of anything? I don’t break the law.

            Is that really your answer to a situation you have no argument for – just throw out a random hope for ill-will? Sucks to be you.

          • Mary Ann

            What you have said matches what I know about Shariah law in Britain, but most people don’t take the trouble to find out the truth.

          • Keith McAdams

            Judged by a religious court. In a country where it is the only rule of law. That is exactly what I’m talking about. What is done to women in the middle east is a crime against humanity. It is not a matter of Shariah law, it is a matter of inhumanity. The middle east will have to stand accountable for their actions. Maybe not soon, but it will happen. And the best punishment will be to put the women in charge. Ha

          • Eugene Goostman

            Not in the middle east. Never happen.

            Some countries are ‘relatively’ enlightened, like Oman and Jordan, but they are still very much male preserves.

            But… Islam isn’t confined to the Persian Gulf – there are many more Muslims outside the patriarchy of the Arab states, many of them, in countries such as Malaysia, Indonesia, Brunei, India, have civil rights about the same level as women in the west enjoyed in the 50s and early 60s.

            What people tend to forget is that in those countries (apart from India perhaps), is that socially, educationally and developmentally, they are about 50 years behind the West. They are learning to stand on their own two feet and, just as was the case in most countries of the West less than 50 years ago, women are only just finding their voice. Luckily they have modern role models to look to for methods for engaging change.

            Privileged Westerners demanding instant change because they are offended doesn’t matter a flying f*ck to some woman in the 21st century in Bangladesh, Malaysia, Brunei, Oman – she is very aware that more women than men in her country have degrees, that she works, on average, 6 hours less a day than her mother did, that she has running water in her kitchen, that she has local healthcare and maternity services, that she has the right to travel without a male escort, that she has the choice to work and get a government-mandated minimum wage for that work.

            Pointing to one of the WORST countries in the world for human rights and making out that they are the norm is as typical an argument as used by conservatives to pillory any change, any social reform, any new idea that makes them uncomfortable.

            Context is everything. Context in religious laws, even more so.

          • Eugene Goostman

            What you seem to be ignoring is that it is THEIR laws and THEIR choice.

            How about you right all the wrongs in your country, then go looking to be outraged in someone else’s?

            I honestly don’t give a fuck about how shari’ah law is interpreted in SA – I don’t live there and won’t go there, because I disagree with their politics, their religious mania and their misogyny – as well as their sponsorship of world terrorism, their funding of wahabbist fundamentalism, their disdain of anyone not Arab.

            Theirs isn’t the only game in town.

            The Islamic country I live in has none of their repression, and it has shari’ah law – not solely. It only applies to Muslims and it doesn’t apply to serious and capital crimes – they aren’t cutting off heads and hands.

            It does make for a convenient scapegoat for those that would foment dissent and paint Muslims as christian-hating, bloodthirsty jihadists – which couldn’t be further from the truth.

            Want to see which countries are the most violent? Compare crime rates in the US with somewhere like Malaysia or Indonesia – two fully Islamic countries. Or Oman and Jordan with the US.

            Remove that mote from thine own eye. And careful with that ax, Eugene.

          • Keith McAdams

            This is where global politics become necessary. As a member of society, I accept that they are in charge of their own destiny. Do what you want. But as a human there comes a point where the barbaric actions of many, not just a radical uncontrollable few, must be addressed. Anyone who condones the stoning of a young girl or the mutilation of women has something wrong with them. If you are told something is okay enough times, you will begin to believe it. I don’t care if a lot of people get together and say this is our way of life. They are wrong. Period. There is no defense to the position of killing and mutilating other humans, especially in the name of a non existent diety.

          • Eugene Goostman

            Some fuckhead just shot nine people in a church in your country. helped along by the barbaric actions of many.

            Clean up your own house – there’s plenty needs doing there before you expend your energies worrying about other countries.

          • Keith McAdams

            Once again you cannot measure what is in front of you. The action of some lunatic is terrible, but it was one man. Just like when your religious idiots blow something up. Mutilating women and killing children on a mass scale supported by a religionand participation by thousands is wrong. And you are wrong. I don’t care that you are in another country. Wrong is wrong. But I will give you this. Do what you want to your people. Stay away from mine and keep your idiotic ideals to yourself

          • Eugene Goostman

            “Once again you cannot measure what is in front of you.” sod off, you patronising git.

            “but it was one man”

            But it isn’t – it is on-going. It kills tens of thousands in the US every year. You are the sex-slavery capital of the world, the child prostitution capital, the child pornography capital – these are not the actions of one man, but of tens, hundreds of thousands in your country – and hidden behind a veil of pseudo-religious respectability.

          • LittleRedRidingHood

            You keep on wheeling out those “facts” about the US.
            Do you have any figures to go with those “facts”
            I’ll give you some facts. In the UK 1 in 8 of the 85k prison population is a foreign national.
            Muslims make up 14% of the overall prison population yet make up less than 5% of the overall population. To many that would suggest a problem along cultural and religious lines.

            https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/339036/prison-population-2014.xls

          • Leon Wolfeson

            Thanks for calling out a problem with bias.

            As your personalities have a problem with culture, period.

          • LittleRedRidingHood

            Care to address any of the published figures? Otherwise you are losing your shine in my eyes fella.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            Oh, you want to steal a “shine” from me or something. Right.
            So – Where are your published figures, and what are they on. Why should they be taken seriously, given your belief in Eugenics?

          • LittleRedRidingHood

            Lol. And you accuse me of not reading your posts. You’ve managed to hammer out your comment with your knuckles, I assume you know how to click a link?
            Fill your boots fella.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            So you have no idea how computers work. As you make another threat.

          • LittleRedRidingHood

            Wonderous response. Not sure how you got to it, but who knows how such a warped mind as yours works

          • Leon Wolfeson

            English, and cause and effect. Well, beyond you it seems.

          • LittleRedRidingHood

            No it’s definitely not that.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            Yea, it’s not the facts. Oh, wait.

          • LittleRedRidingHood

            Facts were published. Hint! It’s the link.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            And they don’t agree with you. Right.

          • LittleRedRidingHood

            I’m mystified why you think so.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            Well, perhaps it’s because I read them and not just the newspaper headline.

          • LittleRedRidingHood

            What newspaper headline? I suggest you don’t know the figures yourself.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            You suggest I’m like you. Hmm…

          • LittleRedRidingHood

            If that’s what you interpret my comment as saying. But provide rationale for that rather than cheap shots.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            So, you’re saying you’re cheap…

          • LittleRedRidingHood

            Yes you’re cheap.

            Just applying your methodology in debate. Although I find it quite demeaning.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            So, you can’t read tenses.
            No, you’re showing off your poor English skills, and once more demeaning yourself.

          • LittleRedRidingHood

            I’d like to think you’ve exhausted your idiocy, alas I suspect I’m wrong. I’m calling a halt to this abortion of a debate. Until next time. Ta Ta

          • Leon Wolfeson

            So you hate thinking, and can’t understand why your eugenics are wrong. As you ignore the fact you never had a debate to abort, since you refused to reply to me with anything but your poor English. Go back to Botswana, now!

          • LittleRedRidingHood

            Ha ha, that’s a bit racist isn’t it?
            So long Leon.

          • Eugene Goostman

            But to the informed, that would suggest a problem along economic lines. Just as with blacks being over-represented in prisons, both in the UK and US, it is more to do with poverty than anything to do with race or religion, except that the race and religion are the triggers for poverty in the first place.

            Since you are so fond of government statistics, since 2002 the white foreign prison population has more than doubled, while the Asian foreign prison population has only grown by around 65%. In the same period Black foreign prison population has gone down.

            So, does that mean Black and Asian foreigners are now more assimilated into British ways than whites? Or does race and religion have absolutely no bearing whatsoever on prison demographics?

            Go peddle your national-front rhetoric elsewhere.

          • LittleRedRidingHood

            Wash your mouth out. You don’t like the figures because it goes against the grain.
            Seeing I wasn’t focussed on Asians or the percentage increase in foreign nationals you are being somewhat dishonest.
            You also have not linked your statistics with the numbers of foreign nationals by ethinicity in the country. I think you’ll find that white eastern Europe and make a much higher percentage than the others.
            Since you can’t refute my figures based on religion and the uncomfortable truth you take the usual lefty approach of branding me a supporter of the national front.
            But there you go. You types use the same ploy wherever you are found

          • Eugene Goostman

            I don’t ‘like’ the figures because the reference you supplied doesn’t back up your assertion.

            There is nothing in the link you provided about religion, yet you stated “Muslims make up 14% of the overall prison population yet make up less than 5% of the overall population.”

            Find a link that supports your assertion and I would be more than happy to give it time.

            I have completely refuted your figures – using the evidence you yourself provided.

          • LittleRedRidingHood

            Did you click the link of prison population by religion and sex A1.8? I don’t know how it could be any clearer. You as well as I do know the Muslim population in the UK is just under 5 million. Do the mathematics.

          • Eugene Goostman

            I did. My apologies. I wasn’t using Excel on my Mac and the additional categories didn’t show up.

            After your post I loaded using Excel and the veil is lifted from mine eyes.

            So yes, plenty of Muslims in prison – around 14% of the prison population from a religious demographic representing about 7% of British residents.

            But it says nothing of the socioeconomic state of those Muslims, which any justice system will tell you is a far greater indicator of criminal activity.

            Poor people commit crimes. Muslims (and blacks) are over-represented in poverty figures and thus, are over-represented in crime stats.

            Happy, wealthy, healthy, stable people don’t commit crimes. If you want to see less black and Muslim criminals, work harder at ensuring they are lifted out of poverty.

            Jumping on a jingoistic bandwagon of racial intolerance does nothing to reduce their over-representation in crime, completely the opposite.

            So, instead of “suggest[ing] a problem along cultural and religious lines.” it shows that even after 50 years of post-colonial immigration, the UK is particularly shit at assimilating anyone not white and christian.

          • LittleRedRidingHood

            A very articulate and emotive response. But you are over generalizing. Especially with comments like “Happy, wealthy, healthy, stable people don’t commit crimes. ” That is stretching it a bit. Unfortunately, we’ll never know as the figures aren’t segmented on occupation. If we’re generalizing then wouldn’t it be reasonable to suggest there is a problem with values of certain segments of society. I suggest the figures suggest something is at odds.
            Your last point in the UK being cr@p at assimilating anyone only goes to show the warped perception liberalists hold. Isn’t it the responsibility of those arriving here to assimilate with us. They have to embrace us. They are given all the tools to do so. Why is it only certain ethnic minorities who struggle with this?
            It’s never their fault is it!

          • Eugene Goostman

            Of course it’s generalising – statistics are all about generalising.

            And WTF is a ‘liberalist’? Whatever it is, as a business owner, grandfather and long-term Tory voter, I suspect I am not one.

            If you can’t see how poor the UK is at assimilation, you are being blinkered by ignorance. There are very, very few resources for immigrants to access – language, behavioral, social. Once you pay your 750 quid for your application, everything is left to amateurs. There is little in the way of agencies set up in the communities that need them for integrating people that have migrated from war-torn or oppressed environments.

            The government seems to hope that schoolteachers will do it for them and social workers when there is already a problem.

            To say ‘they are given all the tools to do so’ is absolute crap. Really, just an complete absence of reality in your claims.

            Most of my family work in ‘social’ careers – teachers, nurses, doctors, police, mental health, criminal justice. We are a geographically widely spread lot and cover a wide spectrum of incomes, politics and world experiences, but there is a definite agreement that most of the problems with ethnic minorities and religious minorities in England (not so much Wales and Scotland) is due to a complete lack of effort on the part of the government. some of us have lived for long periods in countries where we are a minority – Muslim and Buddhist countries, Africa and Asia and South America – where you see that your average Buddhist and Muslim is no different to your average Englishman, in their hopes and aspirations, their attitudes to law and government and prices and the weather.

            You accuse me of ‘over-generalizing'(sic) – this from someone who seeks to tar every member of a religion as walking in lock-step, no matter where they are from.

            Muslims come from a wider range of cultures and ethnicities than the whole of Europe – some of them are from Europe, and have been for 5 or more centuries. The difference in the culture and behavior of a Muslim from China, from Sri Lanka, from Malaysia or Indonesia, from Pakistan, from Bangladesh, from India or Afghanistan, from Sudan, CAR, The Seychelles or Benin is vast. They are nothing like the Arabs from Saudi Arabia, UAE or Kuwait. Nothing at all like Muslims from Lebanon or Iran or Syria, from Iraq or Kazakhstan or Russia.

            The ‘problems’ associated with Islam is mostly about education and poverty. When you live in a country just barely out of the stone age, when your only education is the Koran and even that is in a language you neither read nor understand, there is potential for exploitation by those with bad intent. Most of the current wave of Islamic fundamentalist terrorism takes advantage of poor dumb kids from the arse end of the world. If the US and UK had spent their money on schoolbooks instead of bombs, the last 15 years would have reaped a very different result.

            In the UK most of the ‘problems’ are from the northern former textile towns filled with ethnic Pakistanis. There are no jobs, their schools are failing, there is nothing being done to work out how to make this segment of the UK engage with the rest of Britain.

            Have you ever spoken to a twenty-something Muslim from Rotherham or Bradford to find out what the actual problem is? You and the government are the same, then.

            If you continue to ignore the issues surrounding a large segment of the British population (and they are British – born and raised), you are just asking for trouble.

            The issue is mostly economic – they are poor and have no prospects. This is not a new concept.

          • LittleRedRidingHood

            Points well made but I have to disagree with you on so many levels. So I’ll start at the end and work my way back. Please forgive me, but as you based your argument on anecdotal evidence allow me to do the same.

            I too have family and friends in the police, criminal justice,  education and the NHS and they have largely come to quite the opposite conclusion as you.

            It is an absolute fallacy to suggest that immigrants do not get the help and support they need.
            Help is there if you want it. The fact that assimilation seems to be an issue for a particilar segment of society, it seems to suggest they have a problem with the concept of integration.

            Tell me how in this day and age we can be in a situation where first generation pakistani migrants have wives who are still unable to speak a word of English after being here more than 50 years? Its not that they haven’t had the opportunity. ESOL courses in English are widely available. It’s down to an unwillingness to integrate.

            Don’t you think this is largely due to the dogmatic nature of their culture and religion. The moment they or their offspring made/make any attempt to assimilate properly the first generation drag them back in.

            Don’t forget the first generation migrants were here for work, not fleeing war or persecution, so why come somewhere if you have no intention of embracing the culture.

            The second and third generation have had all the opportunities and benefits of education, healthcare etc that we have had. They have no excuse. Yet because of their parents unwillingness to assimilate they are unable to integrate themselves for fear of being ostracised by their community. They are confused and as a result more likely to become radicalised or criminalised. It is nothing to do with what we haven’t done, more what they are not allowed to do by their own community.

            Let’s also not ludicrously suggest that this is purely the domain of northern textile towns. This is across the whole country.

            As a native of one of those northern industrial cities I can tell you the Pakistani community is not poverty stricken. There is an awful lot of money sloshing around the “Asian” community. Hence the reason you see very few homeless Asians, very few Asians using food banks and soup kitchens and I wouldn’t mind betting those young asians in Rotherham to which you alluded are driving a car you could only dream of owning. I witness this regularly myself seeing as that is my home turf. One particular chap I went to uni with was dealing in cars of dubious history and had 25 different identities and needless to say He was trading without declaring. He was proud of that. Another colleague seems to think it is a viable business model for taxi drivers to claim fraudulently for staged road traffic accidents. Not to mention many of the black cab drivers use their cabs for personal use to ferry their families around. This is illegal. My relative in the police got reprimanded by his superiors for ticketing those offenders to “uphold community cohesion” Basically, the law doesn’t apply to them.

            They are not assimilated because they don’t want to be assimilated and they know they can take the p!ss.

            Tell me why my grandparents who migrated as refugees from war torn europe had no such problems in integrating and assimilating in the late 40s. My grandfather was polish and escaped german pow camps three times before finding an army he could fight with against the Germans, the British army. He had no English at the time. He learnt. He never made it home because of the Russian occupation.
            My grandmother escaped the poverty stricken south of Italy at the same time. No English or skills yet managed to learn the language, and work productively in the nhs for more than 30 years. That was their ethic and as a result there is a vibrant polish and Italian community.
            I’d even go as far as saying the recent eastern Europeans have made a better hand at integrating than those asians who came 50 to 60 years before them. Also the Chinese, Indians etc etc etc have few problems. If it works for everyone else …………why the issue with that segment of society.

            We are to blame partly by allowed our multiculti, common purpose spin doctors to set the narrative that they should be treated differently. Turning a blind eye when they commit the most heinous crimes against people in our community, again for community cohesion.
            The abuse and sexual exploitation of underage white girls by muslim men of many backgrounds, professions and nationalities on an almost industrial scale across the whole country is a case in point.
            How many in their defence stated they didn’t know it was illegal or more importantly have and sense of morality that what they were doing was wrong.
            The tip of the iceberg has barely been exposed with regard to this scandal and many more cases and perpetrations will come to light in coming years.
            We ought to build more prisions because the Muslim prison population will double in the next 5 years.

            If we can’t even assimilate those that came here of their own accord then why on earth would we want to import more of those “uneducated souls ”

            Maybe you should also open your eyes to what is actually happening in our communities. Look to Swedish towns and cities and the numerous no go zones in France and Germany to understand what is heading our way.

          • Eugene Goostman

            What is done to women in and by the US is just as barbaric – you are the worlds leading sex trafficker and child pornographer – sort that shit out first, then worry about what other countries are doing

          • Keith McAdams

            I agree sex trafficking and child pornography are terrible.but that doesn’t end a life or cause mutilation. It is a completely different thing when you murder people and mutilation of women. if you can’t see the difference then I cannot talk to you because you’re incapable of measuring the severity of these actions

          • Barbarossa77

            Saudi Arabia is at fault for all extreme Islam in the world it is their oil money that pays for it it wants to create an Islamic Celephate but ISIS has out flanked them and wants to now eradicate them how ironic it is ..

          • Debra Wehrly

            Actually, I think if a person is going to move to another country, such as the case of a muslim person, that person should be willing to abide by the laws of their host country, not Sharia law or any other law for that matter. I think the same thing applies to an American or European as well. If I ever wanted to expatriot to another country, I would never expect to be governed by a separate set of laws just because I am an American. If I lived in Saudi Arabia,(which I never will btw), I would never expect the Saudi government to to respect my constitutional rights because If I am on their soil I would have to be subjected to their laws. The same applies anywhere else. I do not think that it is a good idea to have sharia courts in America, I think immigrants should be governed by our laws and respect the hospitality of their host countries.

          • Eugene Goostman

            How do you feel about the Beth Din in the USA?

          • Aaron Hird

            yeah sharia law doesn’t affect non muslims at all! except for the points like a non muslim assaulting a muslim is a very severe crime, but the other way around, well it is just educating an unbeliever how to be. or a non muslim man raping a muslim woman is punishable by death, but a muslim man raping a non muslim woma, well she was asking for it.

            don’t talk shit saying sharia has no effect on non-muslims. in regions where sharia is the rule of law, non muslims have little to no rights. aside from that, sharia is a law based on religious ideologies which themselves are based on fairytales thousands of years old and never meant to be anything more than an oral guide to living humanistically. as with many things it has been manipulated and abused for the purposes of control of the people through superstitious nonsense. and often its followers even ignore the local law of the land if it doesn’t fit to their sharia expectations, such as in the matters of divorce, assault, rights for women.

            I find it highly ignorant that you would claim to live under sharia and say it has no affect on you. although if you are a hermit who never exposes themselves to the muslim community in which you must live to be under sharia law, then that would make sense… and also show that you likely know little about anything else either.

            take for example the idea of halal certification. in western countries, for the most part, it is the same as safe food handling practices, and yet even though this is so, the Islamic community raises hundreds of millions and more every year from halal certification fees. now im not muslim. yet products I buy are halal certified and as such incur an increase in their costs. but the institutions raping all that money from the community for safe food handling principles which companies are already forced to adhere to don’t get taxed because its a religious cost. if you cant see the arrogance and hypocrisy of that, then youre clearly an idiot.

            if they want to enforce their ideologies, then they should also pay to do so. the halal costs should be covered by the Islamic community ONLY. if they want THEIR beliefs and culture respected, then they MUST do the same in western countries. and yet, they don’t. they demand concessions, like being allowed to demand fees for something that is already a part of the system, just without a muslim saying prayers and waving his hands about… (I mean seriously since when has making words and symbols over a leg of lamb prevented food poisoning?) or being allowed to demand muslim-only facilities in non muslim countries or cry discrimination if they don’t get them? even tho by getting their demands serviced they are actually the ones DOING the discriminating? or the hypocrisy of demanding women cover up in muslim lands, and that non muslim men don’t ‘befoul’ muslim women, even while going out into the world and fornicating like rabbits with as many non muslim women as they can get their grubby little mits on?

            sharia doesn’t affect non muslims?

          • Eugene Goostman

            Quite the ignorant rant, considering you don’t know a) which country I live in b) what their legal system is c) how shariah integrates with their other legal frameworks.

            And you have the temerity to say ‘don’t talk shit’ ‘I find it highly ignorant’ and to describe my actions in society.

            This is the third shariah-law country I have lived in, the fourth Muslim-majority country I have lived in, over a period stretching from 1965. I suspect you have neither lived in any Muslim country for any appreciable period, nor know a damned thing about how shariah co-exists with other legal frameworks in modern Muslim countries.

            Dick!

          • Aaron Hird

            lmfao…

            ok pal…

            I think your actual problem is you have been in those places so long you cant see through the bullshit. sucks to be you.

            ive seen plenty of cases in both majority muslim and non muslim nations, where muslims always use ‘it is not in my religion’ as a means to ‘excuse’ their attitudes and behaviours. there are plenty of cases of non muslim men being imprisoned and killed for even sleeping with a willing muslim woman, and on the flip side, the non muslim women who have been punished or killed (by things like stoning of all things!) for disgracing the muslim man who raped her.

            the fact you cant see any of that and still claim shariah is ‘integrated’ with law just shows youre too close and too blind to the truth.

            simple FACT is, religious law, religious ‘taxes’ (halal) have ABSOLUTELY NO FUCKING PLACE AND NO FUCKING RIGHT to be imposed upon ANYONE, as it is ALL based on fairytales and fictions, and in the case of islam, the words of a psychotic warmongering paedophile.

            wherever Islamic populations are being built in western countries, they are DEMANDING, not requesting, but DEMANDING that they be allowed to use their OWN RELIGIOUS DOCTRINE to govern themselves, within the borders of whichever nation they settle in, yet separate from the peoples within whos borders they wish to settle. but try that in ANY of those majority muslim countries, including whichever deluded shithole youre spewing your garbage from, and you will likely be in need of medical treatment. and that’s the BEST outcome!

            ALL muslim nations have laws against ‘insulting’ islam or its prophet. and yet feel they have the right to disclaim and ‘minimise’ all other religions, calling them all false etc. the hypocrisy knows no limits. and neither does your ignorance.

          • Eugene Goostman

            Oh, sorry – you’re a nutbag. Didn’t realize – I thought you were rational, but now I see you are afflicted.

            Get your carer to talk to the doc about “moar meds!”

            Listening to your uneducated rant is amusing, but ultimately just a waste of my time.

            Later.

          • LittleRedRidingHood

            A disappointing response Eugene. You have the opportunity to refute what he says with evidence yet you have fallen into the trap of mindless insults.
            Is any of what Aaron says true, is it all fabricated?
            Your response could very well suggest to a great number of people following this conversation that he may have just hit on a few truths.
            If he’s innaccurate and you are suggesting he is, tell us why.

          • Eugene Goostman

            Are you one of those people that feels the need to speak to the afflicted?

            Sorry, better things to do with my time than converse with obvious nutbags and their bigoted rants.

            Nothing I say will be taken on board by such as him – it isn’t my job to educate him or enlighten him. As a free person I can spend my energies wherever I want and I don’t want to waste them on him.

          • LittleRedRidingHood

            No I was hoping you would actually engage in the debate instead of lowered oneself to name calling. I standby my comment.

          • Glenn Langford

            Eugene, the phrase that jumped out at me from your comments is “unless you live in a country where it is the only rule of law.” Surely this is what is feared if Islamic fundamentalists achieve their stated aims.

          • Wendy Lev

            Sharia law discriminates women. End of story.

          • Sarchasm

            Shariah law allows women simple divorces.

            Your story hasn’t ended quite as you would have wished.

            ignorance on your part doesn’t make you right – just ignorant.

          • BedCrunch .

            From your post we can understand that it is exactly our ignorance, our feeling that this “barely scratches our consciousness”, which keeps the sharia law intact and under no scrutiny whatsoever. Whatever happens to those poor women – well … not our business, right? Besides … it must be great to be born a male. So many privileges, right in your crib!

          • Sarchasm

            If you actually ‘scrutinized’ Shariah, you would probably not make such an inane post.

            But I doubt you have opened a Koran in your life.

          • Zootalaws

            I live in a Shariah country, as an expat US worker. It really doesn’t affect me, except for the mandatory closures on Friday, the alcohol restrictions and now, a complete lack of tourism, thanks to the governments ham-fisted approach to bringing in new laws.

            Much worse than Shariah is the incessant paperwork required for every little thing.

            Still, fat salaries, free housing, medical, travel, no tax and a pleasant climate more than make up for that. And no crime -I never lock my car or my house, although I did hear of a car being stolen last year… Probably a bungled insurance job. Why would you steal a car on an island?

          • Zachariah

            Shows how little you care for women who suffer appallingly under Sharia Law and the many injustices enforced on populations in its name. It is a system of total and absolute oppression, no better or worse than living under Stalinism. A lack of car crime, wow, is that all it takes for you acquiesce to a vile theocratic fascist regime, you sorry excuse for a human being.

          • Zootalaws

            Is hyperbole a constant in your life? Do you find people walk away from you at social events?

            Here’s some free education for you:

            Shariah law around the world is not the same. Different countries apply it according to their needs and desires. Shariah in the UK is only applied to commercial or civil transactions and has to be agreed upon by both parties. Shariah here is only for civil matters. Criminal courts are run on the Westminster system and have a set of five high court judges from Britain that hear serious cases.

            Women in the country I work in aren’t ‘suffering appalingly’ – unless they are missing out on that last piece of chicken at the buffet or didn’t get the newest phone in the Ramadan sales.

            Shariah law, as practiced here, is not “a system of total and absolute oppression”, it is a way of integrating their religion with their daily lives, in the way of contract law, family law, financial law, social and education statutes. Such as: All Muslim students must pass the compulsory Islamic studies, just as they must pass English and Mathematics in order to attend college and university. This represents a hardship for those that don’t study, but you couldn’t really describe it as repression.

            It is somewhat better than living under Stalinism – there are no gulags, there are no summary executions, there is no secret police, there is no forced labor. There are shortages though. A couple of months ago you couldn’t get a bar of Cadbury’s chocolate for love or money.

            I haven’t “acquiesce[d] to a vile theocratic fascist regime” – as I said, Shariah law is barely evident, although there were Islamic police telling people that they couldn’t hang Christmas trees outside their shops last december. The trees weren’t banned – just the location as it was making walking down the sidewalk difficult.

            You really need to get out more and stop reading Stormfront for your news.

          • WimsThePhoenix

            A muslim sock puppet spouting taqiyaa.

          • riccotelaly

            Racist

          • Eugene Goostman

            You’ve used that one. You need more material.

            Apparently, in your narrow world, anyone that has actual experience of what you don’t like is a sock puppet. Of course they couldn’t have their own opinions, just as every Muslim has to think and move in lock-step towards the great caliphate.

            I won’t say your ignorance is staggering, it’s what has become expected of people that get their information from the Daily Mail and various fellow-travelling news and web sources, rather than from actual experience.

            Don’t ever be afraid to voice your ignorance to those with first-hand knowledge, it makes you seem so uninformed and insular.

          • Zachariah

            Religious law is by definition oppressive as it leaves no room for varying viewpoints nor is it concerned with what is pragmatic and works best for society.

            I have traveled far and wide in the Muslim world and so have seen for myself the oppressive attitudes towards women both culturally and decreed in law.

            Of course, there are many differences between nations and the level to which nations are prepared to implement the Shariah but the fact of the matter is that only a fool would say the society is best run on the basis of scribblings by a barely literate merchant from 7th century Arabia, if it even was Mohammed who wrote it down.

            You are deluded if you think Shariah is beneficial to the empowerment of women in the Muslim world.

          • Eugene Goostman

            “Religious law is by definition oppressive as it leaves no room for varying viewpoints nor is it concerned with what is pragmatic and works best for society.”

            What a crock.

            “Of course, there are many differences between nations and the level to which nations are prepared to implement the Shariah”

            But you still want to put them all in the same boat?

            What about religious courts in the US? Do you feel the same way about them? What are you doing about it?

          • Zachariah

            “What a crock” is not a proper rebuke.

            “But you still want to put them all in the same boat?”

            At a fundamental level religious law is wrong, the law must be secular and free from the interference of ideology. In that sense they are all the same but of course the severity of outcomes is worse in Iran or Saudi Arabia than it is in the United States or Egypt.

            I am opposed to religious meddling in law, it is no place for it. The state and religion must be separate.

          • Technocrat

            ” the law must be secular and free from the interference of ideology”

            Why “must be secular”? Laws vary form country to country. If the population of a country wants religious laws, is that not their sovereign right?

          • Zachariah

            It is their sovereign right but it is not to the benefit of society.

          • Technocrat

            It’s their society, not yours or mine. We may protest, but we have no right to interfere with a sovereign nation.

          • Eugene Goostman

            “At a fundamental level religious law is wrong, the law must be secular and free from the interference of ideology.”

            Is that some sort of law of nature?

            You are making absolutist statements that are the outlier. Very few countries, including your own, have such a system.

            The UK and US laws are full of religious doctrine. Look at the laws on marriage, for a start.

            At a fundamental level, your laws came about through religious law. The ten commandments are the basis for most law in the Christian world.

            Who made you ultimate emperor to decide for other countries what they would like for a legal system? Personally, when you look at the adversarial law as practiced in the US, UK and the Commonwealth, it looks barbaric compared to the inquisitorial system as practiced in most of Europe and the Americas.

            Are you going to make a dictate that they are wrong too?

          • Zachariah

            I’m fully aware of how the West developed but that does not mean religious law is right. At any rate, in the West we are striving to get rid of religious law and separate church and state, mostly.

            I do not think we are going to reach a compromise. I do not believe that religion has any place in a states legal system.

          • Technocrat

            “Religious law is by definition oppressive as it leaves no room for varying viewpoints”

            So, ‘thou shalt not kill’ is oppressive?

          • Zachariah

            Do you really want me to list all the religious laws that are oppressive from the Abrahamic faiths?

          • Technocrat

            The point was that killing should be oppressed. So maybe oppression isn’t always a bad thing.

          • Technocrat

            And yet, women continue to protest sexual violence against women in non-Islamic cultures. Have you been to the middle east or any Islamic country? It’s not a system of absolute oppression. Women are free to do many things. Yes, there are some odd laws like not being allowed to drive. But it’s far from “absolute oppression”. If it was absolute oppression how is it that many women are in university in places like Saudi Arabia? How is it that many women work? What are you perceptions based on?

          • Zachariah

            I never stated that other countries do not have problems. Absolute oppression, as women are not considered a full human being it should be a given that women have the same rights as men. Women are not equal in Islam and will never be equal in a society run according to Islamic dogma.

            My perceptions are based on reading Islamic literature, visiting the Middle East and my own experience living in London of socially conservative Islamic groups.

          • Technocrat

            Then you’re definition of “absolute” is incorrect. If you’ve been to the Middle East then you will have see women working, going to university, etc. Yes they have some restrictions, but if it was absolute, then they would not have any freedoms, but evidently they do have freedoms.

          • Zachariah

            Women are not recognised as full human beings in Muslim countries. Name a few where there is parity of rights between men and women?

          • Technocrat

            That’s not an Islamic thing. It’s a patriarchy problem. Gender inequality as far as the religion goes is no different to the gender inequality in other religions, they all have inequalities (hanging over from days of old thinking).

            People need to think more carefully about these things. It’s not as black and white as making it a religious problem just because it’s the popular religion to bash. There are other factors to the conditions that exist.

          • Zachariah

            It is a problem in Islam, which is a patriarchal religion. Yes, of course there are similar problems in other religions but I never stated otherwise, we are talking about Islam.

            I am not only bashing Islam because it is ‘popular’ whatever that means. Problems for women are far worse in Islamic countries than in most other nations on the planet, this is a sad fact to face.

            I am not presenting a black and white binary to you but I am saying that religion does little to empower women, especially Islam at the moment and following this, Islamic law is detrimental to the advancement of women.

          • Technocrat

            No, it’s just a patriarchy problem. The problems for women are worse because of patriarchy. I can’t think of a religion where there isn’t an element of patriarchy. Religions were thought up by men, men, rightly or wrongly, have always ruled in religious hierarchies.

          • Zachariah

            Absolute balderdash! The UK has a patriarchal society but women and men are considered equal and have the same fundamental rights in law. It is a secular nation where the law is at least suppose to be the result of pragmatic evidence based thought. This situation is entirely different to the status quo in nation-states governed by Abrahamic religious doctrine.

          • Technocrat

            “The UK has a patriarchal society”

            No it doesn’t. Don’t confuse gender inequality in some aspects of life with patriarchy.

            You’re making a different point now. Yes, some countries choose to base their laws on the country’s system of faith. That’s their sovereign right. It’s the UK’s sovereign right to have a secular legal system.

            Ultimately, you are debating secular versus non-secular. Not one religion versus another.

          • Zachariah

            Men occupy most positions of power in the private and public sector, which to me suggests the UK is a patriarchal society, though things are changing rapidly and the UK will not remain so for long.

            Why are you bringing up sovereignty? I am not arguing that it is not the sovereign right of a state to decide its own laws. I am stating that the implementation of religious law in a state is not beneficial to its society and the empowerment of women (which was my original point).

          • Technocrat

            “Men occupy most positions of power in the private and public sector, which to me suggests the UK is a patriarchal society”

            No, this is not because of patriarchy. This is more to do with the UK’s education heritage. Sure, there was more of a patriarchy in days of old, but women have had equal access to all aspects of life for many decades. No doubt there are some gender imbalances, in technical jobs and boardrooms, but that’s not quite the same as patriarchy. Mostly it’s about who you know, not a preference for male over female. As education catches up and more girls take up subjects usually taken up by the boys, the corporate will will benefit too from gender balance.

            Sovereignty matters because no country has the right to dictate to another sovereign country what their legal system should be. You may not agree with another country’s culture or system of governance, and you can protest, but that’s all you can do. You can’t force them to change. They will change at their own pace. It took the western world long enough.

          • Zachariah

            Semantics, I mostly agree with your first point.

            I never argued that it was not a nations sovereign right to decide their own laws! I don’t want to force people to change but I do want to make people aware, who perhaps have been indoctrinated since birth into religious doctrine and who are looking for a way to better themselves and their nation.

          • Technocrat

            Who are you trying to make aware? Women in patriarchal cultures are aware that other places are less patriarchal and where women have equal rights. In every such society there are feminist movements to bring about change (at their own pace). We’re not showing them anything they don’t know about already.

            However, we have to be constructive in our support. I’m not sure how demonizing entire cultures helps. We have to remember that there are many men, younger generation usually, in those societies and cultures who also want change.

          • Eugene Goostman

            You didn’t answer the question: “Have you been to the middle east or any Islamic country?”

          • Zachariah

            Yes, I’ve been to Egypt, Israel, Jordan and United Arab Emirates.

          • Saxo Grammaticus

            On the same passport? I find that hard to believe. Also given your posting history, I find that hard to believe. If you did, you went around with your head buried in your nethers.

            I used to have to travel to Israel and other parts of EMEA. We always kept a separate passport for Israel – and the FO was happy with that. Trying to get into the UAE with a passport that had an Israeli stamp in it was asking to be turned over in a four-hour customs marathon.

          • Zachariah

            I only traveled through Israel going from Egypt to Jordan. I had a quick look around El Eilat and then proceeded to cross the border. I didn’t have any trouble aside from the long wait and searches that accompany traveling through Israel. I visited UAE on a different passport to the one used visiting Egypt, Jordan and Israel.

            I loved visiting those countries and absolute enjoy many aspects of the various cultures that exists there. The food is bloody fantastic. That does not mean that region does not have a serious problem disentangling religion from politics.

          • Eugene Goostman

            “Shows how little you care for women”

            It shows what? So his working as an expat shows that he is a misogynist?

            No doubt you carry all the ills of the country you live in, purely because you live there.

          • Zachariah

            The comment implies that the implementation of Sharia in the nation in which Zootalaws lives is beneficial for society there and I was simply pointing out how minorities and women suffer – the benefit is not universally shared. I don’t pretend that the UK is so great but at least it is a secular nation.

          • Saxo Grammaticus

            The UK is secular? You might want to talk to the Archbishop of Canterbury about your misapprehension.

          • Zachariah

            To all intents and purposes the UK is a secular nation. The church has as much power as the Queen.

          • Saxo Grammaticus

            You might want to talk to the Archbishop of Canterbury:

            The Church of England Assembly (Powers) Act 1919 (9 & 10 Geo. 5 c. 76)[1] is an Act of the Parliament of the United Kingdom that enables the Church of England to pass primary legislation called Measures. Measures have the same force and effect as Acts of Parliament

          • Zachariah

            Do we really have to have this conversation? The UK has a peculiar constitutional arrangement unlike many other states. What is technically permissible in legislation is not convention and thus extremely unlikely to ever happen. The UK state to all intents and purposes is secular as laws are made and enacted on this basis. Our laws are not made with a particular preference for one religion over another.

          • Saxo Grammaticus

            And yet I just provided you with actual evidence of actual legislation about actual CofE powers in law.

            OK. It’s all a figment of my imagination – 3,2,1, you’re back in the room.

          • Zachariah

            I never stated otherwise, are you determined to have a conversation utterly devoid of nuance? The committee can only initiate legislation affecting the CofE and even then this is constrained by the acts of Parliament, human rights law and EU legislation. It does not produce legislation affecting all UK citizens. The power of the committee is severely constrained, it is mostly a hangover from a different time and that fact it has so little power means it is not reformed. It is not a pressing issue for the public as it does not affect them. Please, present some examples of where legislation initiated off the back of this act in the last 20 years that would seriously put my contention that to all intents and purposes the UK was a secular state in jeopardy?

          • global city

            you mean that you turn a blind eye to the everyday cruelty of the culture and law amongst which you live and whose institutions you suck the teat of… how disgusting!

          • Zootalaws

            But there isn’t anything of which you claim, no more than the country YOU live in.

          • WimsThePhoenix

            pillock.

          • Eugene Goostman

            By “suck the teat of” do you mean “work for a salary”?

            When did that become a bad thing?

            And unless you are riding a bicycle and only wearing hand-manufactured clothes and shoes, eschewing technology (oops…that’s clearly not the case) then you are most likely to be using Muslim petrochemicals and supporting those regimes you find so disgusting.

            How hypocritical!

          • A_Kill_Ease

            “Still, fat salaries, free housing, medical, travel, no tax and a pleasant climate more than make up for that.”

            Your own comments state quite nicely about your male attitude and mindset. I’m alright jack…whats in your wallet!

          • Zootalaws

            And yours shows clearly the ignorance you think passes for discourse.

            I am only in a position to change things through my behavior- I cant vote, can’t own property, and am employed for two years at a time. Just exactly what do you expect I would do? Be specific.

          • Eugene Goostman

            I think you will find that is what is known, in the wider world, as acerbic wit, or sarcasm.

            Given the tirade of hateful posts to what seem like information-filled rejoinders on his part, I can see why he has taken that route.

            I can’t be bothered being so polite.

          • Technocrat

            Women too are happy with a fat salary, free housing, medical, travel, no tax and a pleasant climate.

          • WimsThePhoenix

            It doesn’t affect YOU so f—k everyone else, especially the women, eh?

          • Student

            Join the argument Goostman. For or against. Personal attacks in this forum are petty and unwarranted. They do not educate nor support. Reading your comments I think I begin to understand what trolling means. We all hope to learn and hope to make the world a better place for all.

          • Eugene Goostman

            And your contribution was what, exactly? A demand?

            Sorry, I don’t jump to the whim of some self-important moderators-wannabe

          • WimsThePhoenix

            You know all about self-important wannabes.

          • Eugene Goostman

            I’ve read your posts, so yes, it seems I now know all about them – or the ones in here, at any rate.

          • Arthur Volts

            Sharia is medieval and oppressive. Stop forcing your backwards thinking on people above your pay grade.

            Taking advantage of an open culture is what your people are doing. All that will cause is it to snap shut, forcing a conflict.

            Peace is not the natural state of Muslim populations.

          • Zootalaws

            I don’t force my thinking on anyone, unlike you who seems quite comfortable telling others what to think and do.

            It’s clear the hypocrisy of your post has completely gone over your pointy little head.

            “My people” reside in South Carolina, I am glad they are “Taking advantage of an open culture”, it’s what we are told to do from an early age.

            Get some more of those volts working, Arthur, it seems you are a few short of a battery.

          • WimsThePhoenix

            You are in the minority of opinion here, sunshine.

          • Zootalaws

            So that means I have to shut up?

            Force of numbers doesn’t make you right. Twenty falsehoods don’t make a truth.

            It’s clear how it works in your world – shout it down so you are right. Shut dissent so you are the only voice, therefore making your opinion the ‘truth’.

            Got it. Muzzle anything that doesn’t accord with your ignorant, uneducated view.

            Idiocracy in action.

          • Technocrat

            Rational voices often are in the minority. Does not mean the majority are in the right.

          • WimsThePhoenix

            You cretinous moron.

          • Eugene Goostman

            You fetid cuntrag.

          • Margaret Sturman

            still don’t want it. No religion-based law should see the light of day in any civilized country. We are fighting the crazy religious fanatics in the US right now and it’s no picnic.

          • Sarchasm

            You do realize that you already have exactly the same thing as Shariah courts in the US and have done for decades? Hebrew rabbinical courts, Orthodox courts, are pretty much exactly what Shariah courts would be.

            The fact that they are for Muslims is what gets the stupid flowing.

            Here, learn something about what you are getting hysterical about. http://www.nylslawreview.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/16/2012/11/NYLS_Law_Review_Volume-57-2.Broyde.pdf

          • Frank Lazar

            What I want to hear Eugene is your justification for the brutal punishment the Saudis leveled on a woman who’s crime was creating a blog about the midieval restrictions Saudi Arabia puts upon women. That’s what Shariah law is to most of us Westerners, tell me why this court ordered punishment should not be considered representative of Shariah standards of justice?

          • Eugene Goostman

            Why should I give any justification? What the fuck have I got to do with Saudi Arabia or they with me?

            I don’t live there.

            I want to hear your justification for the brutal punishment the US meted out to someone with an IQ less than 60.

            Or the behavior of Australia towards their Aborigines

            Or the treatment of Irish Catholics by the British government.

            Or the killing of thousands in Bhopal, India, by Union Carbide.

            While we are at it, I demand you give me a satisfactory answer to where Jimmy Hoffa is.

            “tell me why this court ordered punishment should not be considered representative of Shariah standards of justice”

            Tell me why the US death penalty shouldn’t be representative of justice in France or New Zealand or Poland?

          • Technocrat

            Okay, I’m not defending the laws, but I’ll try to explain. If the law of a land forbids criticizing the establishment, then it’s the law. When the law is broken, the offender must be punished.

            It’s not a Sharia issue. It’s more a human rights issue. The same applies in Russia and China and many other places. The consequences may differ (assassinations in Russia, imprisonment in China, etc). but it’s really a human right issue, and not one that is exclusive to Saudi Arabia.

          • Debra Wehrly

            First of all, western countries have their own laws, they do not need sharia law. Second of all, sharia law is very outdated. Sharia law is incompatible with liberal, western values and democracy.

          • Eugene Goostman

            What an asinine comment.

            Clearly you don’y know anything about religious courts in Western countries – you already have religious courts in the USA – so it’s only Muslim religious courts you object to?

            How much effort have you put in to railing against the Beth Din or the Permanent Judicial Commissions of the US Presbyterian Church? They have the same kinds of standing in law as the Muslims are seeking for their Shariah courts.

            There’s a lot of hysteria generated by people with very little knowledge on the subject.

            I would suggest you educate yourself before attempting to speak knowledgably on a subject which you are clearly unfamiliar.

          • http://balloune.tk/ Claude Balloune

            Goodness! So you are not a muslim.
            Ah- it does not apply to you! How convenient. And what does your sister or daughter think about it?

          • Eugene Goostman

            “Goodness! Are oyu a muslim? You are familiar with Shariah?”

            To answer your first draught:

            No, I’m not a muslim. I’m also not a christian, buddhist, hindu, animist, mormon, scientologist or follower of the Flying Spaghetti Monster.

            How is that relevant?

            I can read, I can think, I can discuss with people of faith, I can understand arguments. I also have lived in majority-Muslim countries for many years. If you open your eyes and ears, it allows you to gain perspective.

            “And what does your sister or daughter think about it?” My daughter is ambivalent, as it doesn’t apply to her – being a western woman and not a Muslim. My wife is less charitable, she has had friends that have suffered the trials of Shariah law, for what she sees as unjust reasons.

            But she understands that it is their society, their law, their choice – not ours and we aren’t really in a position to judge their choice.

          • http://balloune.tk/ Claude Balloune

            Well, you be neither a follower of Christ or of the FSM (peace be unto him), but as Bertrand Russell’s jailer once said to him (and I paraphrase here) –
            “Aye, young fellow! There be many religions, but I suppose we all worship the same god.”.

            Your daughter is ambivalent because she has had no experience in such matters. Yet. And let’s hope she never decides to go backpacking alone in one of these heathen countries!
            Islam may not be the problem, but its written tenets, unlike much of the New Testament, certainly reinforces peculiar barbaric behaviour amongst the tribal folks.
            I would venture that the “christian” OLD testament is similar to the quran in its outlook upon punishment and rules of law, but at least the former was written by a bunch of old fuddy-duddies that none of us take seriously anymore. Unlike the quran, which was dictated BY GOD to Muhammad, and consequently cannot be argued!
            And of of course, it was written in Arabic, for as we all know, Arabic is the language of god. Right?
            Anyhow,
            سلام لكم.
            وعدم السماح لهم تسكع مع ابنتك. 😉

          • Dogsnob

            Tell us the good bits, do.

          • GarryMc

            No one is trying, except you.

          • Derhexenhammer

            Tell me, do you have a similar aversion to Jewish communities following Halakha, or Dutch Amish communities in Pennsylvania following Ordnung? Because there would be no difference between a local community of Muslims following Sharia and some Chasidic community following Halakha.

            I’m against all religious law, but the reality is that many people here in the US already follow local legal systems that are analogous to Sharia, and to deny Muslim communities the right to to follow Sharia, would be discrimination. Ban Halakha and Ordnung, and then sure, we can ban Sharia too, but until then, shut the fuck up.

          • Blu Soulstn

            Because feminism has done so well right? As a man that’s right at the middle aged mark I’ll tell you that more guys my age and younger are starting to want that system instead of the crap here in the west

          • http://www.ophiuchuscube.com/ Hendrik

            Feminism is a much better idea than islam.
            Oh – and if a world with equal rights for men and women is all so bad for you; why don’t you convert to islam then? Then you may legally slap your woman, and legally rape your woman. You traitor.

          • Eugene Goostman

            Just as you can in half the countries in the world.

            Why don’t you just come out and say it, you’re proud to be a bigot – an ignorant, uneducated, unworldly bigot.

          • isabella

            What a loser! I read your replies and they are so full of nonsense. Bless, you finally found an impoverished indonesian that let’s you rub your pot belly, wrinkled self on her but it doesn’t make you an expert.

          • Eugene Goostman

            As you seem to have descended straight away to personal insults instead of actually having any sort of opinion, I can simply disregard your nonsense as lunatic fringe bigotry.

            I don’t know what you are talking about with regards to Indonesians and pot bellies, and I suspect you don’t, either.

            If you have a sensible point to make, make it. Don’t act like a pouting 13 year old.

          • isabella

            that won’t help you

          • Eugene Goostman

            You don’t make a lick of sense.

            Which is what I suspected in the first place.

          • neoLiberal

            I’ve read your posts, you do seem to resort to insults very quickly. Why is that?

          • Eugene Goostman

            Lack of self-control.

          • isabella

            I thought that it was obvious but as you are a mindless liberal, you don’t see the facts as they stare at you. I hate people like you. Simple enough?

          • neoLiberal

            Hating other people over a difference of opinion, now that is truly mindless, and immature.

          • Nele Schindler

            It actually did. It has solved a lot of terrible problems since the dawn of time. Ceausescu was hated. Look at what the brilliant Romanians did. Hitler was hated. He’s gone. Most of Eastern Europe is staunchly anti-Muslim. They have zero percent of the problems we have.

            It’s a good and decent thing to hate evil with every fibre of one’s being.

          • neoLiberal

            Solutions solve. Hate does not achieve anything. When politicians deploy military it is not because of hatred, it’s because the military is an instrument that forms part of a solution.

            “Most of Eastern Europe is staunchly anti-Muslim. They have zero percent of the problems we have.”

            So your solution is to be hateful in order to deter? Okay then, we have to hate everybody because people of every race do horrible things. Sheesh.

          • Nele Schindler

            You can hate an evil ideology, like Britain hated Nazism in the 30s and 40s. This is not a ‘solution’ – just a natural result from the state of affairs.

            More and more people are waking up seeing Islam for what it is. This is unavoidable, and it’s a good thing. Glossing over it with pacifist slogans is not a ‘solution’ either.

            Things will take their natural course when enough people are pissed off.

          • neoLiberal

            I don’t like Nazism or terrorism, but that doesn’t mean I have to hate it. Hate does nothing. It’s just a weakness of human character.

            Hating a person over a difference of opinion is even more pointless.

          • Cyril Sneer

            You might as well call yourself ‘Nazi’ because that’s what your name represents.

          • neoLiberal

            Thank you for your sneering contribution.

          • John

            When politicians deploy the military they are, in my opinion, redistributing wealth.

          • neoLiberal

            Interesting view point. Or perhaps securing wealth.

          • Shane Kennedy

            People without a rational arguement often resort to insults

          • http://www.ophiuchuscube.com/ Hendrik

            I am a bigot because I believe in the total equality and freedom of women and men.
            I am a bigot because I believe women should be able to walk around in any type of clothing at any time of day or night in safety.
            I am a bigot because I believe women should not be told by men what is “best” for them.
            I am educated, I have travelled the world. I have saved people’s lives … I am loved by my family and friends. Right now I am involved in bringing an innovative new cure to cancer to the world (together with strong free and intelligent women who are equal) …. I AM a bigot!

          • Shane Kennedy

            I don’t entirely agree with you. If a woman deliberately excites a man, then expects him to switch off again when she has had her fun, then she should accept some of the blame. We are controlled largely by our hormones, and not everyone can suppress that. Women should understand that even more than men … how many of them get narky due to PMT ? Are men supposed to do what women can’t, and suppress an overdose of testosterone ? Women should be free to decide what their place is, whether it be fully equal, subservient, or dominant … with whoever they choose.

          • Eugene Goostman

            You’re a little rapey, Shane.

            Don’t drink too much. You might find your lack of inhibitions leads you to do something you will end up serving a long prison sentence for.

          • Shane Kennedy

            What I do will be entirely consensual (that means above the age of consent), and the only two times that I have lost my temper in my 56 years resulted in a broken nose (the other guy’s, when I was in school), and a broken window (my own). I have never been so drunk that I didn’t remember.
            However, I do recognise that some people have less self control that I have, and that hormones can overrule brains, and even concience.
            Another scenario is when a martial artist reacts to an assault attempt by breaking the assailants arm (or whatever). A judge thinks that the reaction was extreme, but a martial artist, whether a soldier or sportsman, trains to react by reflex, not by thought. If he thinks, he has lost, possibly his life. Even in the street, he doesn’t know if the assailant has a knife, a gun, an accomplice, or may be an even better fighter than he is, so he takes the assailant down so that he stays down.

          • Demilade

            A little rapey?

          • Cyril Sneer

            Despicable comment.

          • flylikeanigel

            You are responsible for your own actions. If you’re not mentally stable enough to accept and move on when a woman has changed her mind, then that is your problem and I suggest you get help for it before you harm someone.

          • Anders Jackson

            Don’t blame the victims, that is plain wrong.

            And women should not learn how to protect themself, men should learn how to treat women and other men.

          • Shane Kennedy

            I don’t or a moment suggest that women should learn to protect themselves. I suggest that in a very few cases (I mean a few 10s in the whole world), the woman has deliberately excited the man (or men), then expected them to switch off when she has had her fun. Arab men seem to bewired differently though. I have heard of a crowd of men forming to ogle 2 European women sunbathing, and the police beating the crap out of them to get them to disperse. We all know of the so-called honour killings, even when it is blatantly obvious that the men are at fault. Women being beaten horribly, for daring to talk to another man, or even drive a car.
            In Saudi, women are barred from entering certain shops, having to call an assistant and point out, in the window, what they want.

          • Anders Jackson

            @Shane Kennedy, I don’t no what you was talking about with “honor killings”, but that is a cultural thing, and it is also a part of the western culture. There are many women that get beaten and killed because they are not behaving like the man who think he owns them think is proper.

            So yes, “honor killing” is alive and kicking in western christian culture too. And so are it in Christian and Muslim societies in middle east too, and so in Africa.

          • Eugene Goostman

            And here’s me thinking you are a bigot because you pick a bunch of stone-age misogynists and tar 1,5B unrelated people as if they walk in lock-step with them, for no other reason than they share a similar religion.

            Walks like a duck, etc.

          • http://www.ophiuchuscube.com/ Hendrik

            The majority of the followers of ideologies are irrelevant as history has shown..
            The majority of Russians were irrelevant when millions died in the name of Marxism.
            The majority of Germans were irrelevant when Jews were gassed.
            The majority of Chinese were irrelevant when the communists killed millions.
            The “extreme” (or pure) followers will do the enforcements, and the killings, whilst the “moderate” majority does nothing.

            You are so naive.

          • Cyril Sneer

            So you’re an old guy who couldn’t get laid in the west so you shipped out to Indonesia to get yourself a ladyboy wife and now you’ve gone all multi-cultural.

            Stay in Indonesia.

            We don’t want Islamic culture here in the west. You don’t live here so you don’t understand.

          • Eugene Goostman

            WTF is it with you lot and Indonesia? I haven’t been to Indonesia. I don’t know any Indonesians. I can’t recall ever having met an Indonesian. I do know a Filipino that lives in Jakarta, does that count?

            He’s a fat old guy like me, though.

            As to getting laid, you’ll have to ask my many children whether they need a DNA test or not.

            Fuck you, cuntrag.

          • smackdab

            Feminism is also a hate ideology. Equality? Name one right any man has that a woman does not. Cut to the chase answer, NONE. Name the many, many rights women enjoy that men do not. Ready? Go!

          • Karin-helen Jensen

            what system might you mean ,regarding “that system”….Blu Soulstn..? and what “crap” here in the west…

          • Shane Kennedy

            More guys want that, because they want control of their housholds, something that equality (including feminism) has removed from the male privilage. If you want to control your woman, find one that wants to be controled rather than imposing subservience on all women.

          • Eugene Goostman

            Definitely more than a little rapey there, Shane.

            How long do you typically beat ‘your woman’ for until she submits? Or has she learned now?

          • Cyril Sneer

            And just a moment ago you were whining like a stuck pig because people were being ‘offensive’ towards you. Then you accuse someone you’ve never met of being a rapist.

            Classy Eugene, real classy.

          • Eugene Goostman

            You have fallen into the trap of equating the stone-age Wahhabist version of Islam as practiced in Saudi Arabia with Islam as practiced by another 2B people around the globe.

            If you think of Saudi Islam as akin to the Westboro Baptist Church, you should reduce your overall alarm at the behavior of Saudis and stop equating their behavior with that of the majority of Muslims worldwide.

            I live in a muslim country and while there isn’t much crime at all, women and men are treated equally with regard to criminal statutes.

          • http://www.ophiuchuscube.com/ Hendrik

            No – I watch the news.
            And, how much extra tax do you pay as a dhimmi?

          • Eugene Goostman

            You are talking about Jizya? I don’t pay a cent in tax more than any other citizen. As far as I am aware, it isn’t levied anywhere in the Muslim world. Your ‘news’ is leading you down a path of ignorance, something you don’t seem that bothered in showing.

          • http://www.ophiuchuscube.com/ Hendrik

            If not wanting any islamic culture/sharia in Europe is ignorant … then I am!
            I see the news about the 1000 lashings of the blogger, or the beheading of a woman who insulted islam in Saudi Arabia … well I want nothing of that culture.

          • Eugene Goostman

            Again, and for what seems like the thousandth time, THAT IS SAUDI ARABIA, not Islam.

            You have Christian ‘Militias’ in Africa committing genocide, cannibalism, rape, mutilations – they no doubt represent all Christians because… they have it in their name.

            Why is it so hard to understand that Saudi Arabs are ignorant sheep herders that have been given the biggest lottery win in the world – they are not ‘Islam’ – their laws are stone-age, their society is decidedly misogynistic, tribal, nepotistic, but it’s one country.

            Oman, a country right alongside, doesn’t do any of what you said – they are a moderate Islamic democracy. And they aren’t Arabs.

            And that is a telling point – there are a couple of stand-out countries that have codified such barbaric behavior – Saudi and its aligned Arab states is one, Pakistan is another.

            But Bangladesh, the other Muslim state on the Indian Sub-Continent is completely different to Pakistan, despite looking, on the surface, very similar. They have a greater number of girls attending school than boys, they have a greater number of women in positions of power and in professions than men. But Bangladesh only separated from Pakistan 44 years ago. And in that time they have had some upheaval and some heartbreak, but they have come out the other side, stronger, more resilient, more fair and balanced as a country.

            I live in a Muslim country – there are lots of ‘guest’ workers from other Muslim countries working here, but one thing you won’t find are Pakistanis – the government won’t give them visas. They cause trouble, they foment dissent. So, we have very nice Bangla and Indian muslims. They are very nice people.

            The same for Oman, right next to Saudi Arabia. They are Muslims, they have been so for the same amount of time, but they aren’t Arabs and they don’t have the same customs or attitudes. Omanis are very nice people, in the main. They are moderate in their politics and in their religion.

            If you have an issue with Arabs, you go for it – I will back you to the hilt. In my long an varied experience in dealing with Arabs I have found them to be most unpleasant, with unpleasant habits and unpleasant attitudes towards anyone that isn’t an Arab male. They have this mythical ‘code of the desert’ that they think they live by, but in reality they are just rich thugs with thousand-year-old attitudes. Given a more egalitarian world, the US would have ignored all their billions of dollars of oil and kicked their ass years ago, but instead they went down on their knees and fellated them.

            Even among Arab countries, Saudi is an outlier of repression and bigotry. There are 450M Arabs in the world, but most of them don’t live under the repressive misogyny that exists in SA.

            If you continue to use them as your yardstick, you are going to bust a blood vessel. Try looking at somewhere like Jordan, Oman, Malaysia, Brunei, for your reference. And of course they aren’t perfect, but then neither is the US, Germany, France, the UK, Australia. But they are on their way to building a better Muslim state. One that works well with their neighbours, one that benefits all of their society and one that is growing in the world community.

            Pick the outlier if you must, but you will always be frustrated by their outlandish behaviour.

          • RichS

            Sorry to butt-in – but does this mean that you basically agree with the Swedish minister?

          • Zootalaws

            Not only agree, but support.

            I have been to SA a number of times over the last 40 years and it has always struck me what a thoroughly horrible place it is.

            My wife and I just recently had the opportunity to work at the King Abdullah University of Science and Technology and while it was a very attractive package, we turned it down. I have worked in Jeddah before (KAUST is just north of Jeddah) and found it oppressive. But, the Muslim country we have been in for the last 5 years is just great. It might not pay the same, but the location, the weather, the people, the social life, are worlds apart from Saudi.

            Never been to an Arab country where I have felt comfortable – except maybe Lebanon in the early 70s. But they fucked that up.

          • Sarka

            Not clear, I’m afraid. Brunei has just been introducing intensified sharia…(including death for apostasy) and suppressing Muslim critics..There are many troubles in Malaysia, including pressure on non-Muslims and what has been described as increasing militant Islamic suffocation of dissenting views among Muslims.
            Yes the Muslim world is a varied place, including the role and character of religious law, but unfortunately militant modern Islamism is making inroads almost everywhere, even if in some places less dramatically than in Iraq/Syria or Nigeria.

            So (though the tide may turn – one hopes so), I cannot agree with you that many Islamic countries apart from SA are “on the road to building a better Muslim state”….In fact the whole enterprise of building “a Muslim state” as against a “better state” is in principle screwed,

          • Eugene Goostman

            I live in Brunei. You might want to stop reading whatever hyperbolic sources you are using and speak to some Bruneians.

            The announcement of the changes in the CPC (Shariah crime statutes) occurred in mid 2012. As yet, the only charges under the new shariah laws have been… none.

            The death penalty you hold up as proof of the barbarism of Bruneian’s has never been used, despite being on the statutes since the 1950s. It’s still a potential punishment in the UK and an often-used one in the US, but you are focused on a tiny little country with a very low crime rate, with a very happy population, with a very moderate form of Islam and they somehow scare you. I wonder why that is?

            I have lived here many years and one thing I can say is that Brunei likes making laws, but is not so good at policing or prosecuting them.

            It is a country without a representative government, which is more of an issue. It is a country without significant industry, which is another issue. It is a country that is much more influenced by its Malay culture than anything else.

            As I write this my wife is about to leave, unchaperoned, to go swimming, in a normal bathing costume for a fit fifty-something. She is wearing a sun dress, above the knee and off the shoulder. She will engage with men and women, she will shake their hand, touch their elbow, laugh and share a joke with them. Her Muslim friends will laugh at their husbands and berate them for what wives the world over berate their husbands for. They will drive themselves to their place of work, where they are heads of government departments, lawyers, policewomen, customs officers, postal workers, nurses, doctors, dentists, vets, teachers, waitresses, shopkeepers, maids, nannies, businesswomen, grandmothers and home-makers.

            Yes there are still anachronisms, such as a young woman needing her father to co-sign on a car loan or mortgage, but so would a young man under 25, unless he was married. You can’t access birth control unless you are married -but you couldn’t in Ireland until very recently. It’s not right, to a western view, but it fits with Malay ways of doing things.

            Like many countries, there are good and bad things, but the bad things aren’t actually the things to do with Islam, it is the slowness of bureaucracy, it is the lack of jobs, it is the poor reading habits, it is the obsessive consumerism and lack of savings.

            Those need addressing. Islam is a backdrop to society here, it isn’t the ‘big thing’

          • isabella

            The Organization of Islamic Cooperation (OIC) is a group that formally represents all 57 Muslim majority and plurality nations. The two main conferences in the title are the conferences of leaders and foreign ministers, so the apologists can’t really call it a fringe organization.

            The first thing to note is that everyone understands what the reaction would be if all Christian majority and plurality nations created the OCC. Immediately, Muslims would scream “Crusaders!” Why are we not to cry “Jihadis!”?

            Most importantly, they don’t hide their key goal. The UN created the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. The OIC openly and unanimously rejects the UDHR. Why? Because it says human rights are innate to all people. That’s wrong in the eyes of Islam.

            The OIC put forward and supports the Cairo Declaration of Human Rights in Islam. It states that the sole source of rights is Sharia Law and the only rights people have are the ones Muslims deign to grant us.

            When the 57 Muslims nations support the CDHRI, it’s clear that the vast majority of Muslims support a different view of humanity and rights than we do here. When the American Muslims claim to be moderate, in the Western sense of the word, but refuse to discuss the OIC, furthermore openly support it, they just show that they are the forefront of jihad and not people interested in democracy.

            They are not radicals, they are mainstream.

            LikeShare
            3

          • Eugene Goostman

            You might want to read the Cairo Declaration, seeing as how you think you know so much about it: http://www1.umn.edu/humanrts/instree/cairodeclaration.html

          • RePat

            Thanks for the link. It is very informative about the OIC declaration and gives insight into the thinking behind it. Everyone should read it before commenting on this topic. From my reading of the Declaration, Isabella’s comment are valid.

          • Eugene Goostman

            If you read her comments with blinkers on, then sure.

            But if you know a little about the background behind why the OIC felt they needed to create their own version of the UN DHR, then maybe you would look at it in a different way.

            The Declaration of Human Rights was entirely the creation of the West, there was no input sought by the UN by Muslims and the output was put as a fait accompli and all the nations of the UN were expected to just ratify it.

            But there are some significant areas where the DHR fails the needs of Muslims, the Cairo Declaration sought to cover those, while keeping to the spirit of the DHR.

            It shouldn’t be seen as something to undermine the DHR, but as an addendum that seeks to encompass the design of what was created by the West and incorporates those ideas within the broader remit of Shariah.

            If you only think your way is the right way, of course you will see the CD as a slight to the UN. But it could have been avoided, had the UN sought input from those countries.

            The UN itself was new. The OIC had many years to look at the UDHR and find it didn’t fit Islam as well as it fitted the West.

            This wasn’t some knee-jerk reaction.

          • Akhibrass

            When the 57 Muslims nations support the CDHRI, it’s clear that the vast majority of Muslims support a different view of humanity and rights than we do here”

            Right because all those nations are democratic and the rulers no doubt consulted with their Muslim subjects before creating the CDHRI.

          • Fryl0ck

            Hendrik, if you mean Saudi Arabia’s approach to law “taking foothold in the West”, then I don’t think you have much to worry about. If you mean Islam, then remember that this is a problem in Saudi Arabia, and not countries like Morocco, Indonesia (largest Muslim majority in the world), or in Muslim communities in the West.

          • Doug

            As the Moroccan guy said to me ” without a word of a lie – every second man in Morocco has had sex with a boy”

          • Demilade

            He should correct it with ”every second Middle Eastern man has had sex with a boy”.

          • symonia

            Yes, you should prevent wahhabism.

          • A_Kill_Ease

            I’m with you all the way, but I question the term “west.” I’ll assume you reside in the EU. The Swedish foreign minister, Margot Wallström, has been abandoned to hung out to dry not only by her own government but also by the EU government. I’m starting to think that more and more that the EU should be referred to as ” EU centre” and not as the “west” The EU constant appeasements to the Arab Muslim states block is very worrisome.

          • hepworth

            Too late Hendrik.

          • LittleRedRidingHood

            Too late Hendrik. It is here.
            Now what to do about it.

          • Dogsnob

            Are you kidding? How many millions of footholds are in the west?

          • Scylla

            Too late. It’s a disaster.

          • Shane Kennedy

            Why 8 female ? Are they more likely to lie than men ? Obviously, most rapes take place when there are no witnesses anyway, and rape can take place inside the home too. I am sure that there is no rape within marriage in any Muslim country. That is recognised in few enough other countries either. The first conviction in Ireland was not until 2001, I think.

          • Eugene Goostman

            “In 2007, Malaysia made amendments to its Section 375 of its Penal Code, making forced sexual intercourse on a woman by her spouse a crime and in 2011, the first case prosecuted under the new law which saw the conviction of a man and his imprisonment for five years.”

            Malaysia is a Muslim-majority country with Shariah law provisions.

          • Sarka

            This is fascinating and very unclear. A reform was drafted in 2006 and several sources say that marital rape became an offense in 2007 (I didn’t see material on the case you mention), yet in 2011 Malaysian women’s organisations were still claiming that marital rape was not yet a crime, and I read something about opposition stalling reforms in 2013.

            Tunisia and Turkey have definitely outlawed marital rape.. but not most Arab nations.

          • flylikeanigel

            So women only count as half a person. =/

          • Niels Henriksen

            Yes, or even less 😉 ( in other circumstances )

          • Derhexenhammer

            Maybe you should read the Qur’an before you go telling people what it says. Any accusation of adultery has to be backed up by 4 witnesses, regardless of the gender of the person you are accusing, and regardless of your gender as the accuser. That rule exists to prevent people from being mistakenly identified. You do realize that the human brain is really, really bad about filling in it’s own memory with information that was not originally part of the memory, right? It’s basically saying that you can have someone convicted for adultery based on circumstantial evidence. Eye witness accounts are some of the shoddiest evidences you can present in court. Just look at the Salem Witch Trials, we have official court documents that claim these women called down lining bolts into the court house, all backed up by a room full of witnesses.

            If you have physical evidence, you know, real evidence, you don’t need witnesses. These rules are there to discourage FALSE witness. Surat an-Nur, not only does it say you need 4 witnesses to make an accusation, but it also deals out punishment for false accusations. If Woman X accuses Man Y, and he denies her accusation, but is later found to have raped her, not only is he punished for the rape and adultery, but he’s also punished for accusing her of bearing false witness, which is also tantamount to accusing a free woman of adultery, if the implication of her denial is that she did it willingly.

            It’s actually really fair and well thought out, especially for being compiled in the 600’s. In contrast to Christian Biblical law, or Jewish Halakha, it’s actually very progressive.

          • global city

            The issue that is not explained in the posts above is that the Saudi ‘human rights abuses’ are based on religious law.

          • dohhhhh1

            She is put to death, and the reason is so pathetic people won’t want to believe it, they consider it adultery because in their minds she didn’t fight hard enough so therefore she did it on purpose. The only brave souls in Egypt are the women, the men are cowards, they oppress women because they fear them, if they treated them as equals there would be no fear, unfortunately that won’t happen in my life time.

          • smackdab

            We now have anonymous reporting of rape for US college campuses – even Sharia Law has better Due Process rights for the accused.

          • Patrick Roy

            Yes, ask all the girls in Rotherham. And Oxford.

          • Hippograd

            And Rochdale, Bristol, Bradford, Leeds, Newcastle, Burnley, Blackburn, Birmingham, Manchester, London, Telford — in fact, every city and town in Britain that has been enriched by Muslim immigration.

          • neoLiberal

            You do realize that the majority of rapes in the UK are still committed by non-immigrant men, right?

            “Every city and town”? Well that’s not true. I live in a market town that has no Muslim immigrants (though I’d happily welcome any because I know the actions of the few don’t represent an entire community).

            The false correlation has been proven false time and again. Just google it, plenty of analysis in the media. (And don’t worry, just because it’s not covered by far right media, doesn’t mean it’s not true.)

          • Eugene Goostman

            No curry houses in your town? That’s a surprise.

          • neoLiberal

            There is but the owners are not immigrants (or Muslims).

          • Eugene Goostman

            Of the three curry houses in our town, the owners were Indian Brits, but the guys working there were nearly all Bangladeshi immigrants.

          • Hippograd

            You do realize that the majority of rapes in the UK are still committed by non-immigrant men, right?

            No, I don’t and if that were true, “non-immigrant men” (which I take to mean white British) are still the majority of the population. The police and authorities have been ignoring the huge problem of Muslim rape-gangs for decades, so that means an unknown number of rapists have never entered the statistics. One thing is certain: Muslims and other non-whites are hugely over-represented in violent crime of all kinds, including rape.

            But again, that’s objective reality. Not something that need concern decent, pro-feminist progressive folk such as yourself.

          • neoLiberal

            By that logic, the authorities would have missed lots of non-immigrant rapes too due to their ignorance. Actually more so, because there was historically lower immigration in the past (it was net negative in the 70s in the UK). And we know there was organized sexual abuse by politicians and celebrities (pre-dominantly, if not all, non-immigrants). Who don’t know how much they got away with. Maybe in time it will be uncovered.

          • Hippograd

            By that logic, the authorities would have missed lots of non-immigrant rapes too due to their ignorance…

            It’s not “ignorance”: it’s an active effort to ignore crime by non-whites for fear of seeming racist:

            Karrar was brazen in his exploitation of Girl D and acted in the belief that the authorities would never challenge him – something that for years proved to be true. Isolated, terrified and dependant on the drugs she was being fed, she summoned up the courage to report Karrar to the police twice; once in May 2005 and again in 2007. Nothing happened. Social workers also knew and did not act. One told the court it was the “general consensus” of the staff in her care home that she was being groomed.

            http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2013/may/14/oxford-gang-groomed-victims-hell

            organized sexual abuse by politicians and celebrities (pre-dominantly, if not all, non-immigrants). Who don’t know how much they got away with. Maybe in time it will be uncovered.

            The sex-ring was homosexual. Gays are another saintly minority who outperform the majority in certain forms of behaviour. Of course, Jimmy Savile was not Muslim or homosexual. Sex criminals are found in all groups, but the important point is that some groups supply far more of them than others.

          • neoLiberal

            Exactly, we don’t know how much raping and abusing the non-immigrants might have been responsible for because it was all hushed up. It could be millions of cases.

          • Hippograd

            Exactly, we don’t know how much raping and abusing the non-immigrants
            might have been responsible for because it was all hushed up. It could
            be millions of cases.

            Where is the evidence that huge numbers of rapes by heterosexual white males have been “covered up”? Nowhere. In proportion, that group commits far fewer rapes than Muslims or blacks, even though some Muslims and blacks never rape at all and some white men do. But don’t let statistics, logic or objective reality trouble you. There’s a better world to build for women by welcoming mass immigration by Muslims.

          • neoLiberal

            Around 20% of rape and murder in the UK is attributed (i.e. arrest or conviction) to immigrants. The other 80% is non-immigrants. (2013 data, highly unlikely there has been a big shift in the last couple of years.)

            That’s out of all immigrants, and since not all immigrants are Muslim the proportion attributed to Muslims immigrants would be lower still.

          • Hippograd

            Around 20% of rape and murder in the UK is attributed (i.e. arrest or
            conviction) to immigrants.

            A huge over-representation. But do you mean by “immigrant” someone born overseas to non-British parents?

            The other 80% is non-immigrants…

            Muslims and blacks are not “non-immigrants”, whether or not they were born in the UK.

            That’s out of all immigrants, and since not all immigrants are Muslim the proportion attributable to Muslim immigrants would be lower still.

            As I keep pointing out: even on the present statistics they are hugely over-represented in violent and acquisitive crime of all kinds. The present statistics do not reflect the full reality, because the authorities have been ignoring what they are getting up to in places like Rotherham, Rochdale and Oxford. London, Manchester and Sheffield are bigger cities where their out-reach to the under-age kaffir female community has been on an even bigger scale.

          • neoLiberal

            An immigrant is someone who moved from one place to another. A person born in a country is not an immigrant, no matter what their ethnicity or the origins of their forefathers. A person may have immigrant ANCESTRY, but that does not make the person an immigrant.

            Yes it is alarming that 80% are non-immigrant criminals. I wonder how much bigger that figure could be too if the authorities did a better job.

            Nice try at attempting to make a mountain out of the mole hill when there is already a mountain there.

          • Hippograd

            “Muslims and blacks are not “non-immigrants”, whether or not they were born in the UK.”

            Wrong. Plain and simply wrong. So by your logic a person with long held British ancestry, born in the UK and who chooses Islam as their religion, is an immigrant??????

            I didn’t say “Muslim and blacks are immigrants whether or not they are born in the UK”, I said they are “not non-immigrants”, i.e. their status does not equal that of the native white British. I didn’t cover every possible contingency when I said “Muslims”, but I meant “non-white Muslims”, who form the vast majority, rather than “Muslims-of-every-colour”.

            Yes it is alarming that 80% are non-immigrant criminals. I wonder how much bigger that figure could be too if the authorities did a better job.

            You don’t need to “wonder”: we already know that , for decades, “non-immigrant” Muslims were committing serious crimes and being allowed to get away with it:

            The court heard the victims were tied up, burnt, suffocated, beaten and urinated upon, and would return to Oxford bleeding, injured and carrying sexually-transmitted infections. […] Numerous opportunities to catch members of the gang are believed to have been missed. Thames Valley Police chief constable Sara Thornton has previously apologised for the delay in securing convictions against the seven men. Ms Thornton admitted a joint investigation did not start until 2011, despite complaints from victims.

            http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-oxfordshire-23079649

            I have constantly quoted facts to you about the hugely disproportionate involvement of non-white Muslims in sex crime. All you do is response is blow smoke. If you have evidence that ordinary white heterosexual British males are committing serious crimes and being allowed to get away with, please produce it. If you don’t, admit that you have no case.

          • neoLiberal

            ” their [British Muslims] status does not equal that of the native white British. ”

            That’s prejudicial at best, racist at worst.

            “Muslims were committing serious crimes and being allowed to get away with it”

            Wrong again. It was a failure to govern by the local authorities. Oh and remind me, what kind of people were most of those councilors and politicians supposedly “allowing” crimes to be committed?

            80% of rapes and murders in the UK are attributed to non-immigrants.

          • Hippograd

            ** That’s prejudicial at best, racist at worst. **

            Why has it taken you so long to say “racist”? You should have done that as soon as you started to lose the argument.

            80% of rapes and murders in the UK are attributed to non-immigrants.

            And of that “80%”, a vastly disproportionate number are committed by non-whites, especially Muslims.

            Celebrities and people in powerful positions in the 70s and 80s were getting away with sex crimes. Or have you not been following the news lately? Or perhaps you only see the news you want to see.

            Sigh. I’ve already mentioned Jimmy Savile and said that all groups commit crime. It’s a question of the tendency. The girls in Rotherham, Rochdale, Oxford etc, etc would not have been abused if it were not for mass immigration by Muslims. The white British commit fewer sex crimes in proportion to their share of the population. Non-white Muslims commit far more. Again, I’m repeating a point that has not sunk in. I don’t think it will ever.

            Those 20% of crimes attributed to immigrants are not worse crimes, they deserve no special focus over the other 80%, unless there is an anti-immigrant agenda.

            If much less than 20% of the population are committing 20% of crime, they do deserve “special focus” because the part of the population is obviously far more prone to commit crime. You can’t even follow the logic of your own statements. I can’t decide whether you’re 15 or a satirist taking the p*ss of the left. But perhaps you’re both.

          • neoLiberal

            “Why has it taken you so long to say “racist”? You should have done that as soon as you started to lose the argument.”

            Because you only just made a racist statement.

            “And of that “80%”, a vastly disproportionate number are committed by non-whites, especially Muslims.”

            No. The MoJ data is not classified by religion so you have no validation for this.

            “If much less than 20% of the population are committing 20% of crime”

            Please learn to read. Where do you get population from? Crimes, not population. Let me help you: the 20% of the same types of crimes deserve no more focus than the other 80%. Each crime, regardless of ethnicity, religion, gender or age is an injustice, no more no less.

            (I’ll ignore the ad hominem age comment.)

          • Hippograd

            Because you only just made an actual racist statement. Up to now your comments were borderline.

            “Racism” is the progressive equivalent of blasphemy: it is a term used to police thought and safeguard power. The fact that you use it as though it’s a serious term is proof that you are not thinking straight on this topic. It’s often used by both sides in a progressive argument, because progressives are not interested in logic and objective facts. It has at least three distinct meanings. I am definitely racist in the sense that I think genetics is responsible for the low average IQ of blacks and Pakistanis and high average IQ of the Chinese. I also think genetics explains lots of other ways in which those groups differ.

            “And of that “80%”, a vastly disproportionate number are committed by non-whites, especially Muslims.” No. The MoJ data is not classified by religion so you have no validation for this.

            I have the prison population to “validate” that. I have the fact that gays are fleeing Muslim areas in London because of the violence and abuse they suffer. I have the thousands of under-aged girls raped and prostituted by a “tiny minority” of Muslim males in cities and towns right across the western world.

            Please learn to read. Where do you get population from?

            I got it from looking at reality. If 20% of crimes are committed by “migrants”, who form far less than 20% of the population, they are committing crimes at disproportionate rate.

            Crimes, not population.

            The fact that you think the two have no relation is an indication of how well you understand the topic.

            Let me help you: the 20% of the same types of crimes deserve no more focus than the other 80%. Each crime, regardless of ethnicity, religion, gender or age is an injustice, no more no less.

            Another religious statement: all sin is sin and every sin, no matter how slight, is abominable in the sight of the Lord.

            The word “rapist” makes people think of men. Why? Women commit rape too. Therefore rape by women is just as important as rape by men. The same logic. I don’t accept it and neither do progressives like you. If one group is committing more of a particular crime than another group, it is ludicrous to say that equal attention should be paid to both groups. Muslims and blacks commit all kinds of crimes at much higher rates than the white British. Therefore their presence in the UK increases crime.

          • neoLiberal

            “”Racism” is the progressive equivalent of blasphemy: it is a term used to police thought and safeguard power.”

            No. Racism is racism. Period. There is no defence you provide that justifies racist comments.

            “all sin is sin and every sin, no matter how slight, is abominable in the sight of the Lord.”

            Incredible. So you are a religious racist?

            ” If one group is committing more of a particular crime than another group, it is ludicrous to say that equal attention should be paid to both groups.”

            Law and justice is applied equally, no matter who commits the crime – justice is blind. Otherwise it would not be fair and equal. You appear not to grasp this basic concept of the justice system. All rapes are equal crimes. All murders are equal crimes. You cannot say someone is raped less or more than another rape – you can’t commit half a rape, or murdered less or more than another murder – you can’t commit half a murder. The crimes are equal so equal attention must be paid to the crimes. The law does not care who commits the crimes. The law does not care if men commit more crimes than women. The law only concerns itself with the *laws being broken*, not who is breaking the law.

            80% of murders and rapes are committed by *non-immigrants*. (2013 Ministry of Justice data.)

          • Hippograd

            No. Racism is racism. Period.

            Sin is sin! It merits eternal Hell-fire.

            There is no defence you provide that justifies racist comments.

            Define racism. Is it racist to say that man evolved from apes, i.e. the genetic changes account for the difference between human beings and apes? If it isn’t, why is it racist to say low average black IQ is largely genetic? It’s a scientific question about objective reality. Invoking morality in discussion of facts is characteristic of religious believers and of those (often the same) whose world-view can’t stand on its own merits.

            “all sin is sin and every sin, no matter how slight, is abominable in the sight of the Lord.” Incredible. So you are a religious racist?

            No, I’m just a “racist”. I am pointing out how similar your psychology is to that of a religious believer. Judaism mutated into Christianity mutated into Marxism mutated into…

            Law and justice is applied equally, no matter who commits the crime – justice is blind. Otherwise it would not be fair and equal. You appear not to grasp this basic concept of the justice system. All rapes are equal crimes. All murders are equal crimes.

            No system of justice has ever accepted that. There can be aggravating circumstances, like sadism or murder of a police officer. And, of course, a murder committed with blasphemy in the heart is far worse than a decent, salt-of-the-earth murder. In other words, a hate-murder is worse than an ordinary murder and merits extra time. According to progressives.

          • neoLiberal

            Oh dear, you’ve resolved to religious arguments based on your personal beliefs. Basically you’ve given up on factual debate.

            “If it isn’t, why is it racist to say low average black IQ is largely genetic?”

            It’s racist because a person’s intelligence is not encoded in their genes. Anyone who believes intelligence is genetic is misinformed, to say the least.

            “No, I’m just a ‘racist’.”

            Agreed. That you are.

            “a murder committed with blasphemy in the heart is far worse than a decent, salt-of-the-earth murder. In other words, a hate-murder is worse than an ordinary murder and merits extra time.”

            Now, you’re just expressing your own religious bias and perception of how you would like law and order to be implemented. Thankfully, you’re not a law maker and in reality justice is fair and equal and focused on crimes, not the offender’s ethnicity or immigration status.

            80% of murders and rapes are committed by *non-immigrants*. (2013 Ministry of Justice data.)

          • Hippograd

            Possibly your mother tongue isn’t English. If it is, you’re not intellectually equipped for this argument. Your responses are stereotyped and robotic, so either you’re taking the p*ss of the left or you’re a member of the autistic-spectrum community, which explains why you can’t grasp irony or humour. You may well be an atheist and Dawkins fan too. I’m an atheist myself, but I don’t like to call myself one because it means I get associated with people like Dawkins.

            Now, I know you’ll say “ad hom”, but ad hom is perfectly ok when it used as commentary, not as argument. I do not say you are wrong simply because you’re autistic (or American or 15), I say you can’t understand my arguments because you’re autistic (or whatever).

            Oh dear, you’ve resorted to religious arguments based on your personal beliefs. Basically you’ve given up on factual debate. You’re now sounding like a religious fanatical.

            I am not religious and I don’t have any religious beliefs. Your progressive ideology is crypto-religious and uses morality to direct thought rather than logic based on facts.

            “If it isn’t, why is it racist to say low average black IQ is largely genetic?”

            It’s racist because a person’s intelligence is not encoded in their genes. Anyone who believes intelligence is genetic is misinformed, to say the least.

            If intelligence isn’t “genetic”, why are jellyfish less intelligent than whales? Of course intelligence is genetic: genes set the ceiling for a particular individual of a particular species. The average black ceiling is lower than the average white ceiling, which is lower than the average Chinese ceiling. I know your religion preaches otherwise, but your religion is based on lies and deceit. Like most religions it’s designed to benefit the priests, not the laity.

            “a murder committed with blasphemy in the heart is far worse than a decent, salt-of-the-earth murder. In other words, a hate-murder is worse than an ordinary murder and merits extra time.”

            Now you’re just expressing your own religious bias and perception of how you would like law and order to be implemented,

            No, I was joking about your religion. Your inability (genuine or feigned) to spot this proves that you’re not worth arguing with. Crimes committed for reasons of “hate” earn extra time. That’s a fact about the modern justice system. Did you not know this?

            Thankfully, you’re not a law maker and in reality justice is secular, fair and equal and focused on crimes, not the offender’s ethnicity or immigration status.

            A stereotyped and robotic response. The “secular” is telling. No, justice has never been “secular”, i.e. objective. In the past it was Christian, nowadays it’s Marxist.

            Only evidence and facts about the offence matter.

            There have been abundant evidence and “facts” that Muslim males are raping 1,000s of under-aged white girls throughout the UK. This evidence was ignored by your religion because it didn’t fit your religion’s dogmas (non-whites are oppressed, whites are racists, etc). So please don’t tell me that “evidence and facts about the offence matter”.

            80% of murders and rapes are committed by *non-immigrants*. (2013 Ministry of Justice data.)

            I’ll repeat my argument and you’ll again fail to understand it. If 20% of offences are being committed by “migrants”, migrants are obviously far more prone to commit crime. Therefore more migrants will mean more and worse crime. This is why I oppose mass immigration, especially mass immigration by Muslims and blacks. Your religion supports mass immigration, because your religion isn’t based on logic or reality: it’s based on fantasies and lies.

          • Technocrat

            “If intelligence isn’t ‘genetic’, why are jellyfish less intelligent than whales?”

            You’ve just made a complete fool of yourself. 🙂

            I’m not even going to waste time on your other points because they are equally ignorant and devoid of understanding of the subjects.

            Again, I’ve ignored your ad hominems. What little credibility you had, very little, disappeared with each attack.

            80% of murders and rapes are committed by *non-immigrants*. (2013 Ministry of Justice data.)

          • Hippograd

            You’ve just made a complete fool of yourself. 🙂

            Oh dear. What a shame for me. But how funny. Here’s the dedicated Marxist and anti-racist Steve Rose also stating that intelligence is affected by the genes:

            So far as the first goes, if Watson had confined himself to saying (as
            he now does in his article) that there are likely to be genes which,
            expressed during development, contribute to differences in individual intellectual performance, then there would be no scientific dissent…

            http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2007/oct/21/watsonsbadscience

            So according to a Marxist biologist there’s “no scientific dissent” that intelligence is affected by genetic differences, even though Rose does not (of course) accept that these genetic differences might relate to race.

            Again, I’ve ignored your ad hominems. What little credibility you had, very little, disappeared with each attack.

            Ok. You’ve announced victory, so obviously you’ve won. Thank you for providing me with another interesting encounter with a freethinking member of the progressive community.

          • Technocrat

            You do realize that Watson is in the wrong, right? That’s the whole point of the article you linked to:

            “What is scientifically untenable – and indeed scientifically meaningless – is to claim that average differences in intelligence, as measured by IQ scores between different population groups, are caused by genetic differences between those groups – the core thesis of pseudoscientific racism.”

            Happy to have opened your mind up 🙂

            80% of murders and rapes are committed by *non-immigrants*. (2013 Ministry of Justice data.)

          • Sarka

            There has been a police report showing that Muslim police unfortunately have a far higher rate of corruption raps.
            It’s cultural as well as religious – these are kin-based honour-shame communities where it is taken for granted that if you have a public position, you will and must use it to help relatives, protected the honour of family and community etc…

          • Hippograd

            Yes, and kin-based honour-shame communities also commit electoral and financial fraud at much higher rates. In response, the British authorities do all they can to encourage people from those groups to enter government and the police, army and judicial system. Here’s one recent example of where that leads:

            A Conservative election candidate was suspended tonight after being
            accused of trying to choreograph a fake demonstration outside a mosque with the help of former English Defence League leader Tommy Robinson.

            Afzal Amin, a former Army captain who served in Afghanistan, then
            planned to emerge as a community saviour by publicly stopping the
            protest, according to a secret taped conversations published by The Mail on Sunday.

            http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/generalelection/tory-election-candidate-suspended-over-alleged-plot-to-stage-fake-demonstration-outside-mosque-with-former-edl-leader-10125388.html

          • Hippograd

            “Every city and town”? Well that’s not true. I live in a market town that has no Muslim immigrant.

            Surprise, surprise. You’ve not read what I said:

            every city and town in Britain that has been enriched by Muslim immigration.

            Note defining relative clause.

            I live in a market town that has no Muslim immigrant.

            Then it won’t have a vibrant rape-community, unless it has some other form of enrichment from overseas.

          • neoLiberal

            Fine, then my town has not been enriched (which you are obviously using as a derogatory term) and it still has vibrant rape crime. In fact, the stats are abnormally high because of the ratio of rapes to a small population.

          • Anders Jackson

            The “fun” part is that terminology “culture enriching” was used by the Nazi during 30:th and 40:th about the Jews.

            I usually make a “fun” experiment and change every “Islam” with “Jewism” and every “Muslim” with “Jew” and it usually sound very end 1930:th and beginning 1940:th. Do you have an explanation of that?

          • neoLiberal

            There are two roots to the current anti-Muslim rhetoric in Western Europe.

            One root is based on (ir)rational fear caused by increased media coverage of extremism thousands of miles away and a few, very few, isolated incidents within Europe.

            The other root is a general wave of anti-immigrant sentiment among the low skilled, minimum wage socio-economic classes, who have been impacted most by the recent recession.

            Murder and rape rates among non-immigrants vastly outnumber immigrant crime, but the irrationals have an agenda they want to follow.

          • Cyril Sneer

            Rape gangs that single out white children? That’s a muslim thing, no one elses. And more importantly, it’s an imported Muslim thing so we have every right to be angry and especially so as I’m not convictions for those in authority.

            This is not happening in one place, but across the UK. For over 20 years and nothing was done about it.

            So don’t insult us by saying ‘majority of rapes in UK are committed by non-immigrant men’ – why don’t you talk about proportions? If the UK is majority non-migrant men then the answer is obvious. What is more interesting are proportions i.e. ratios to crimes being committed and population.

            But you won’t want to dwell on that.

            Oh and F ck you on your name – if thats your ideology then i want you to die a horrible and painful death.

          • neoLiberal

            “Rape gangs that single out white children? That’s a muslim thing, no one elses.”

            How do you explain the organized child abuses by non-immigrant politicians and celebrities?

            80% of rapes and murders in the UK are committed by non-immigrants. (2013 data from the MoJ, you can google it).

            As for your insults and ad hominem attacks, they do nothing for your credibility.

          • Sarka

            Yes, but unfortunately that would only prove a uniform diffusion of rape cases across population if immigrants were 20% of the UK population. As we know, Muslims are only about 4% (of course we would need a breakdown of other immigrant groups and charges to show just how disproportionate that is..)

            Also (and I want to leave murder out of this), one has to take account of different modus operandi. There may, historically, have been circles of child abusers in the Brfitish establishment (or non-establishment!), but there is really now no evidence among whites and other categories of the specific group modus operandi of the largely Muslim (not exclusively Pakistani) grooming gangs in so many British towns recently. Your average British white child groomer is a loner, who tries to conceal his activities from family and friends, and at most links up with others on the Net for exchange of tips and porn. Then there are the commercial vice guys (no doubt some British, as well as other nationalities) who see the activity primarily as lucrative business, and tend to steer clear of the underage (however much they exploit and abuse the of-AGE, e.g. trafficked East European women). The “Asian” (primarily Muslim) gangs are very different…The crime is mainly communal (depending on family and communal contact), and although the girls are used for income through prostitution, in the first instance it is about getting sex and kicks for the group concerned, relatively free. It relies heavily on the fact that for honour and fear reasons, families and contacts in the community who are aware of the problem will not object or go to the police (the same is true of honour violence within the community). – many after all think that Western girls (or sometimes Sikh girls, also targeted) are dirty and worthless and deserve all they get. The activity is both gratifying and punitive – the impurity of infidel girls…Some of the perps have shown a communal religious self-righteousness…Just as in France police report that when they go to a Muslim’s family to investigate a sexual abuse allegation, the person’s parents simply cannot understand why the behaviour is a matter of concern or a crime.

            So – upshot is – it’s not that non-Muslims (whites, and others) do not commit sexual crimes, but these do not have the same character, and worrying roots in communal attitudes. The same goes for the difference between honour killing (usually collective, planned killing to remove family “shame”), which is surpassingly rare in the white community for cultural reasons, and “ordinary” DV – spousal violence/killing often under influence of alcohol and unlikely to be planned by family or endorsed by neighbours.

            And then there is one of the worst things about Rotherham etc…which was the refusal of the social and security services to take it seriously partly because of fears of charges of “racism” – not something that the police these days fear (whatever their failures) in dealing with white pedophiles.

          • Daisytoo

            You seem to have completely missed Hippograd’s point – which is that the rates of violent crimes against Swedish women have increased by 300% and rates of rape by 1,472%. Why? Because Sweden has an extremely high rate of Muslim immigration. Let me make this even more clear: It’s Muslims doing the raping and it’s liberal bleeding heart Swedish women encouraging said immigration.

            Yes, it’s true that females raped in Muslim countries would be very foolish to report crimes against them. Because when they do, not only do they get punished legally – they get raped again when thrown into jail for the “crime” of having been raped.

          • neoLiberal

            Except, correlation is not causation, or do you have evidence to support your assertion?

          • Daisytoo

            Plenty, and you can read one horrific example (played down, of course) by one of your Leftist bibles, the BBC: “Rotherham child abuse scandal: 1,400 children exploited, report finds http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-south-yorkshire-28939089

            More conservative sources don’t minimize the abuse. But since I’m confident that as a neo-liberal you won’t read anything that doesn’t echo your own mindset, I’ll leave you w/the BBC.

          • neoLiberal

            As opposed to a very left bias opinion? It’s all opinion at the end of the day. Who knows how many countless, unreported children have been molested by Catholic priests…

          • Daisytoo

            No, actually, it’s not ‘all opinion at the end of the day’. That nonsensical idea arises out of Leftist moral relativism – which holds that there is no such thing as objective truth, only subjective feelings.

            Once again, you provide an example of liberal defensive reactivity: Islam? Look over there – Catholic priests!!!

          • neoLiberal

            It is all relative. Even your absolute is relative to my relative view. Your views are based on your moral beliefs and values which are personal to you. Morals are not universal, however much you may wish them to be.

          • http://axon.tel axon

            >what is morally objectionable or acceptable to YOU is not the same for everyone else

            Srsly? Gang rape? Pedophilia? Genital mutilation? These are not culturally relative values; these are atrocities, committed expressly to conform to Islamic imperatives. This is a profoundly malignant philosophy with no redeeming characteristics whatsoever.

          • neoLiberal

            But they are atrocities in your culture so it will be relative to your view of the world. If you were the perpetrator you would not see it that way. The pedophile, the rapist, the FGM performers will see your view as an objection to their rights because in their minds what they do is not objectionable, they believe they are doing what is acceptable in their culture. You’re wrong, it’s not an Islamic thing. It’s people that do these things, religion is just an excuse for the actions of people. These things have been going on in cultures forever. You can argue some cultures have evolved to be more humanitarian than others, that makes more sense.

          • http://axon.tel axon

            Sry, no, atrocities are not subjective. This is a primitive, malignant religion.

          • neoLiberal

            They are subjective to me. But that’s okay, our morals can differ. I can see it from both sides.

          • isabella

            Soooo you’re now making up excuses for rapists, peados, etc? Wow, you’re way too far gone.

          • neoLiberal

            Challenge: where did I make an excuse for them? Re-read, carefully this time, what I wrote.

            (Btw, no need for ad hominem attacks.)

          • Dylan

            FGM is not mandated in Islam.

          • isabella

            Good to know.

          • Dylan

            It’s also practised more commonly in Africa than in the MidEast/Asia (Egypt is, after all, Africa – aside from Sinai), and in some places (like Niger) happens almost exclusively to Christian women living alongside Muslim women who remain unharmed.

            In any case, it’s an horrific, barbaric practice (as is non-voluntary male circumcision, imo) and although it is looked upon favourably in some cultures it’s by no means a requirement or an imperative in any religion, which is something we focus on teaching in communities.

            Very often FGM is the result of tribal conflict, as is particularly barbaric rape. This type of destruction of women is a tool of war, sadly.

          • isabella

            Just to expose a dangerous misconception, economic downturns do not create divisions, economic upturns disguise them. Three hundred years of division in Northern Ireland shows that. But let us not take that, or any of the other decades, even centuries old, racial and religious conflict around the world, as a warning. No, let us take the divisions of Northern Ireland and multiply them by a thousand by allowing mass, unsanctioned Islamic settlement in the center of Europe.

          • neoLiberal

            “economic downturns do not create divisions” – yes they can.

          • isabella

            But…but..oh, look. There’s a squirrel.

            But these cretins are not lopping off heads, turning children into suicide bombers, destroying historical artifacts, making women second class citizens etc. etc. The list of atrocities by Islamic extremists grows longer and longer every day. And all you can do is divert blame.

          • neoLiberal

            Oh, so it’s the methods you object to?

            You’re conflating different issues into one anti-Muslim view. For starters, the attitudes toward women, rightly or wrongly, are cultural, nothing to do with the terrorism.

          • Dylan

            Rotherham was allowed to happen because the orchestrators of those terrible crimes had a client base which was not exclusively (or even in the majority) limited to Asian, Muslim men.

            Let’s also not forget that the BBC is currently in hot water for its white, upper-class, rich “talent” abusing children and the white, upper-class, rich “directors” of the BBC helped cover it up.

            Let’s also not forget that Parliament has been rocked in recent years by uncovered sex crimes against children (including, at least, one murder of a child) all perpetrated by white, upper-class, rich MPs, which more white, upper-class, rich cabinet members helped cover up.

            So… let’s not “minimise the abuse”.

          • Dylan

            I could understand the “culture shock” of being allowed to [basically] all but freely rape if one wishes to in your home country, only to emigrate to another where the concept of consent, decency and bodily autonomy is much more sensible (or “different” if you don’t want to be so bold).

            I could understand first-gen immigrants being slightly more inclined towards crimes of sexual assault and rape that are unheard of in non-immigrant citizens. I don’t say it’s universally true, just that I could understand the rhetoric.

            But what is absolutely, totally, impossible to understand is how you believe this is a Muslim issue.

            Unfathomable acts of sexual violence and rape happens amongst Christian communities across Africa and South America, to name just two. The “culture shock” phenomenon would exist in those people, too.

          • Andi

            Sure, but we just saw the whole Muslim world (65 countries) embrace the right to do so with impunity. I would recommend that you read the article above. So how the hell is this not a muslim issue?

          • neoLiberal

            Repalce “muslim rapists” with just “rapists”. See, easy.

          • Dylan

            Sure it’s a Muslim issue. If we also accept that it’s a Christian issue. When someone (as above) tries to paint it as a Muslim-only issue, an issue that exists exclusively within the Muslim community, then there’s a problem.

            If anything it’s a “developing country” issue. One might even argue it’s even a “developed country” issue, depending on what statistics you side with.

          • Andi

            Rape is an issue everywhere. But official promotion of rape and degradation of women is a muslim issue and very exclusively so (read the article). Certainly no Christian issue. Get off the defensive already, this is not some racist accusation. Muslim countries across the board are doing horribly when it comes to women’s rights and this needs to be addressed.

          • Dylan

            Show me which Muslim-majority countries promote rape & specify what you regard as Muslim degradation of women.

          • Andi

            Read the damn article above. “The Organisation of Islamic Co-operation, which represents 56 Muslim-majority states, accused Sweden of failing to respect the world’s ‘rich and varied ethical standards’ — standards so rich and varied, apparently, they include the flogging of bloggers and encouragement of paedophiles.” That’s 56 states doing just that! Got it?!!!!!!!!

          • Dylan

            I did read the damn article above. The OIC is, yes, a representative of Islamic countries, yes, and there are 56 of them, yes, good good.

            I seem to recall asking you which of those countries *PROMOTE* rape (even promote rape as an Islamic principle – as you imply), which is what you said, rather than just… well, turn a blind eye to it, basically. You haven’t provided an answer. Try, because apparently the answer is glaringly obvious to you so you shouldn’t mind sharing.

            Floggings and executions are abhorrent, yes, but they are far from exclusively doled out to women… nor is capital/corporal punishment exclusive to SOME of the Islamic countries the OIC represents.

          • isabella

            The Organization of Islamic Cooperation (OIC) is a group that formally represents all 57 Muslim majority and plurality nations. The two main conferences in the title are the conferences of leaders and foreign ministers, so the apologists can’t really call it a fringe organization.

            The first thing to note is that everyone understands what the reaction would be if all Christian majority and plurality nations created the OCC. Immediately, Muslims would scream “Crusaders!” Why are we not to cry “Jihadis!”?

            Most importantly, they don’t hide their key goal. The UN created the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. The OIC openly and unanimously rejects the UDHR. Why? Because it says human rights are innate to all people. That’s wrong in the eyes of Islam.

            The OIC put forward and supports the Cairo Declaration of Human Rights in Islam. It states that the sole source of rights is Sharia Law and the only rights people have are the ones Muslims deign to grant us.

            When the 57 Muslims nations support the CDHRI, it’s clear that the vast majority of Muslims support a different view of humanity and rights than we do here. When the American Muslims claim to be moderate, in the Western sense of the word, but refuse to discuss the OIC, furthermore openly support it, they just show that they are the forefront of jihad and not people interested in democracy.

            They are not radicals, they are mainstream.

          • Dylan

            To the initial few paragraphs: correct. So what is your understanding of Sharia law? what does that mean to you? sanctioned rape? promotion of rape?

            (Islam expressly forbids rape, by the way, and the punishment for it is death.)

            For the inaccuracies posted above your comment, proving RAPE in Islamic countries is not done by providing four witnesses (not only would it be illegal to witness it and do nothing, but it’s also improbable a rapist would allow four non-complicit male witnesses – let’s face it)… this is how one proves ADULTERY.

            Rape is proven either through full admission from the accused, or – as in most other countries – through physical forensic evidence of resistance.

            The terms of Sharia Law is not up for debate in Islam. It is, sadly, frequently implemented and then abused as we see today in Iraq, Syria, and so on, by those who hold the power of fear and a lack of moral principles.

            To say this behaviour is mainstream, not radical, belies the very nature of the MENA arena over the past 100 years. The civil wars, the tribal wars, the revolutions, and so on, fought over the very nature of Islam and its laws and what version to implement.

            Your broad strokes just aren’t reality. Your opinion is measured by what is highly visible in Western media and politics, not by the actual situation on the ground.

          • Daisytoo

            Oh boy here we go — the slightest critique to a leftist of Obama’s policies will result in an immediate reaction …”bu bu but Bush, blah blah blah. Mention any feature of the backwardness of Islam (the ONLY religion allowed by leftists) and you’ve demonstrated the reaction … “bu bu but Christians, blah blah blah ..”

            How *do* you keep from boring yourselves to death?

          • kittydeer

            They do it Daisytoo because they are parasites. They live in a culture that allows them freedom but they are afflicted with a suicide gene that makes them embrace the very things that will ultimately destroy them. Britain along with many European countries will go the same way as Mosul in Iraq and the first people to pay for it will be the libs who urged it upon themselves.

          • Daisytoo

            I hear you and agree. Although I don’t think the affliction is genetic, I think it’s a mental and spiritual malady.

          • Dylan

            How does that in any way hold any relevance to what I said?

            Aside from invoking the tired old “left/right” brouhaha (I’m a centrist, by the way, and a sensible one at that) and implying that I – or people who agree with me – hold pro-Muslim and anti-Christian bias (I’m agnostic, by the way, all religion is backwards in my view), nothing you said addresses the issue of you quite openly suggesting that only Muslim men in Sweden rape. Despite, even, evidence to the contrary [that someone else posted].

          • Daisytoo

            You, not I, has said that the only rapists in Sweden are Muslim rapists. So, by all means, go right back to arguing w/yourself and have a ball!

          • Dylan

            Alright, quite openly suggesting that Muslim men in Sweden are responsible for the vast majority of rapes.

            I hope that better appeals to your sensibilities. Either way one can phrase it, you’re wrong.

          • isabella

            The majority of rapes in sweden are by muslim immigrants. Ask any logical Swede.

          • Dylan

            Confirmation bias. How about giving us objective, peer-reviewed statistics?

          • Niels Henriksen

            It’s a public secret in Sweden, but you are not allowed to talk about it or debate it openly 😉

          • Dylan

            Or the Stasi will come, presumably.

          • isabella

            More people are killed by Islamists each year than in all the years of the Spanish Inquisition combined.

            More civilians were killed by Muslim extremists in two hours on September 11th than in the 36 years of sectarian conflict in Northern Ireland.

            Islamic terrorists murder more people every day than the Ku Klux Klan has in the last 50 years.

            19 Muslim hijackers killed more innocents in two hours on September 11th than the number of American criminals executed in the last 65 years.

          • uniqueone

            I completely agree that it is not any one group issue, we need to focus on how to eradicate this and nothing else. Other groups also do it is not the issue, they all do it! when caught they hide under excuses, WRONG IS WRONG UNDER ANY SITUATION!

          • Dylan

            It starts off with human rights/women’s rights/LGBT rights. Fix those, you fix everything as far as it can be fixed.

            One thing all extreme iterations of religion or politics agree upon is that the dehumanisation, the belittlement and oppression and violent punishment of “lesser” humans [be it through a difference in religion, class or race], women, and lesbian/gay or transgender people is often not only just but a moral obligation.

            As much as I lean towards the left for quite a few of my opinions, I’m rather radical in my belief that there must be sweeping, perhaps even forced, sensible reform in all countries to all but eradicate these issues and propagate equality.

          • Jawad Lahlou

            What is the matter with you, people?! So basically, only muslim men rape… that’s your explanation? Really?! Really???!

            Bring me data, not false correlations that don’t mean sqwat.

            Islam doesn’t permit or allow rape, but I think you already know that, right?
            And Saudis are douche bags, I mean we all know that. I’m from Morocco, and those guys are bad news, they come from a culture (and I say culture not religion – very big diffference, a culture is norms, values, history, traditions…) that reduce woman to three basic roles, daughter, wife, mother. They’re chauvinistic pigs but Islam is not responsible, them being ass holes is.

            So my point is that we, as long as we have good mothers (parents) that teach us to be decent human being and a society that neither make us feel like we are the oustiders looking in nor permit male to feel superior over women, we turn out to be decent. Look at me. I’m a feminist and a muslim and I live in a muslim country.

            Don’t you see what’s going on? Doesn’t that remind you of something? The whole us against them routine. We’ve been there, we’ve done that… and look where that led us… u really want for history to repeat itself again.

            The more you discriminate, the more they ll feel like they have to cling on to what they think is their sole identity. The more you point fingers at them, the more they’ll realize that it’s really you against them.

          • Daisytoo

            “You people”? Okay.

            Leaving that aside, I have visited Morocco and seen – with my own eyes – women squatting roadside selling pots, etc. To a person, the women (and older female children near them) appeared to be clinically depressed – such was their affect. Contrasted w/the men holding hands practically skipping down the street along w/some small female children, whose fate was not yet oppressively enacted by the skip along Moroccan men’s Islamism.

            Incidentally, and lest you decide that the women who looked like they were on Thorazine for life were merely representatives of the lower class – who, after all, sort of deserve to be depressed – there wasn’t a woman to be seen walking freely or casually on the streets of Morocco. The few women out and about were very much on purpose as the beasts of burden they indeed are.

            The culture of all Islamically dominated regions is the culture of Islam. Period. And rape,along w/the general abuse of people – and women and children in particular – is very much a part of Islamic culture.

            Now, for your reference to me, along w/anyone who dares criticize the backwardness of Islam, as somehow or other an ally of Hitler, I have only this: Muslims were, and remain, aligned w/Hitler’s agenda. You are entitled to your own opinions. However, you cannot make up your own facts.

          • Kluif

            There is a difference between “… you, people” and “you people”.

          • Daisytoo

            Oh well, by all means, let us digress to that perfectly meaningless point in order to refrain from looking at more substantial matters.

            Obama? Bush! Islam? Christianity! Liberal deflections are soooo boring.

          • neoLiberal

            As are far left and far right deflections.

          • mastersoftheobvious

            Yeah, that’s right. Everybody does it. That’s the best liberals can ever do. How you just take responsibility for yourselves? But then you wouldn’t be liberals.

          • neoLiberal

            All politics is deflection and propaganda. Every comment here is propaganda and deflection. You will view my comments as deflection and liberal propaganda.

          • Becki Adams

            It’s soooo sad. No matter how many of us trying to help these poor women, it STILL is going on in this day and age. THAT is why we have tried to withdraw our troops. No matter what, this ridiculous behavior STILL exists and they blame the victims. WHAT can we do that hasn’t already been done or tried???? Do these men WORK??!

          • Daisytoo

            I’m assuming they must do some sort of work when they’re not drinking tea, chewing khat or skipping about the streets on their way to drinking tea and chewing khat.
            But they certainly are not the same beasts of burden as Muslim women.

          • Dylan

            What “help” do you believe occurs?

            Genuine question. It comes from someone who has worked in, amongst other places, Southern Africa & the Occupied Palestinian Territories with victims of rape, FGM and torture.

            We have tiny, almost immeasurably small, impact on this awful crime in every single country destabilised by civil or declared war. In countries with no central infrastructure, no stable military or police force to capture & punish the instigators and perpetrators of such crimes.

            The act is normalised in these cultures. People are blind to it, terrorised by it, or unwilling to stop it for fear of retribution, social stigma or no positive outcome. They accept it will happen, either to them or in spite of them – so why not join in?
            They require outside help, but don’t get nearly enough. Out of sight, out of mind. Too costly. Too dangerous. Etc., etc.

            Worse, one of the greatest helps we can provide – UN peacekeeping troops – are increasingly more likely to rape and sexually assault in the countries they are posted to.

          • Marinus of LFC

            Maybe we can introduce miniskirts, ladies’ nights at the local discos, labiaplasty, and all types of things that will make them free…even the right to misspell first names…

          • Michel Bouchoucha

            Daisy…..islam is not a culture..you keep missing the point.. and frankly you lost us..slowdown the gabbing and chillax. But so you know the stuff you are talking about eminated from the desert region where many tribal groups roumed. Including the hebrews..and once upon a time hebrew women were stone for just that “messing around!!!” Not shocking huhh. So where you think that cultural garbadge came from first????? Arabs and jews are cousins by blood,,another historic revelation..but then again you seem so well versed in you ignorance to the point that you cannot sift the difference between religion and culture..but i have actually no time to reeducat you to the difference and what is truth and what is lies..so keep up..oh is that your real face..the M.A.D..just asking cause you don’t seem funny. Namaste

          • Daisytoo

            Namaste? Good grief but could be possibly be more predictable?

          • neoLiberal

            “Namaste? Good grief but could be possibly be more predictable?”

            Right there. That’s your whole attitude problem. You ignore everything else the person wrote because you don’t want to consider their view so you resort to an insult. You could have simply replied, “Disagree”, but no, you have to insult. Grow a little.

          • Jawad Lahlou

            i dont make up facts. You’re using your interpretation of a reality that is absolutely uncorrect and you try to make it a fact. That’s intellectualy dishonest.

            “women who looked like they were on Thorazine”, I mean come on.

            I don’t make up facts. There is the religion and there is the application. There is good and bad people. There is cultures that condemn oppressions over minority and there is culturen that enables them even among the same religious current..

            And FYI, the moroccan sultan Mohamed V has been considered a just among the nations for his effort to save his hebraic community from the hand of the collaborators, and the regime of Vichy and ultimatly Hitler.

            Bitch please, get your facts straight before ever try to argue. And interpretation of reality is no fact.

          • Metis

            In your last paragraph, you betray the fact that you have at least the mentality of an abuser of women.

          • Jawad Lahlou

            Of course I do. We all do, one way or another. We all are humans. And humans are animals with conscience. But animals nonetheless. The point here is that we have to keep our dark passenger in check.

            And “Bitch please” is humerous. Don’t take everything so seriously.

          • Metis

            It’s disrespectful to say the least. I find it an insult on behalf of this woman and all of us women. It’s not humorous at all.

          • Jawad Lahlou

            I say to my brother “Bitch please” all the time. We like to act like sassy gay guys, it’s funny, it makes us laugh. That does not mean that we’re not feminist or gay friendly. That just means that we like to laugh about silly stuff and not give it a derogative meaning.

            But you can call me a prick or a douche lord, if that makes u feel better.

            And i’m advocate to absolute free speech. Even caricatures 🙂

          • Metis

            Just restrict it to your brother then. No I’m not going to jump into the mud with you.

          • Marinus of LFC

            I similarly greet my brother with the phrase “motherfucker” or “mofo”…I am not making any suggestions about him or my mother. He greets me with “puta” but I can say with 100% certainty that I’m not a prostitute. You see how language can work, Metis? Just as I assume your name is supposed to refer to some goddess rather than “the first person to pass out or fall asleep in a group gathering.”

          • neoLiberal

            Try not to be so literal, the internet is not great for conveying commonly used phrases that are not meant as insults.

          • Metis

            True. But often this term is used to belittle women. It’s hard to know when it’s not being used that way; so I think, in the context of this discussion, it would have been preferable not to use it.

          • neoLiberal

            Possibly. But then plenty of women proudly wear “sexy bitch” t-shirts. Are they self belittling?

          • Metis

            I’d say so. But I’m an old lady.

          • neoLiberal

            Then, just perhaps, it’s a generational thing? Not being ageist, just saying, cultural shifts occur between generations.

          • Metis

            Yes, I think that’s quite possible.

          • Daisytoo

            Bitch? How quickly you revert to type.

            Here’s some more facts for you: Mohammad was a thieving, murdering war lord who not only approved of rape, but was himself a rapist. Moreover, he was an incestuous rapist. After sneaking around looking at her naked, he ‘married’ (aka, rape) his daughter-in-law after intimidating his adopted son into divorcing her.

            More? “The Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) sent a military expedition to Awtas on the occasion of the battle of Hunain. They met their enemy and fought with them. They defeated them and took them captives.

            Some of the Companions of the Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) were reluctant to have intercourse with the female captives in the presence of their husbands who were unbelievers. So Allah, the Exalted, sent down the Qur’anic verse: (Sura 4:24) “And all married women (are forbidden) unto you save those (captives) whom your right hands possess.” (Abu Dawud 2150, also Muslim 3433)

          • Jawad Lahlou

            If for you argumentation is about going around, quoting the first biais site on google, well let me please enlight you.

            This is the original text of the hadith :
            أَنَّ رَسُولَ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم بَعَثَ يَوْمَ حُنَيْنٍ بَعْثًا إِلَى أَوْطَاسٍ فَلَقُوا عَدُوَّهُمْ فَقَاتَلُوهُمْ فَظَهَرُوا عَلَيْهِمْ وَأَصَابُوا لَهُمْ سَبَايَا فَكَأَنَّ أُنَاسًا مِنْ أَصْحَابِ رَسُولِ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم تَحَرَّجُوا مِنْ غِشْيَانِهِنَّ مِنْ أَجْلِ أَزْوَاجِهِنَّ مِنَ الْمُشْرِكِينَ
            as we can see from this :
            1-the prophet was not aware of what happen as he was not there
            2-the Arabic words(the original) does NOT SAY in the presence of their husbands any ware AT ALL INFACT it says quite the opposite as for (تَحَرَّجُوا ) means the became afraid of having sexual intercourse (مِنْ أَجْلِ أَزْوَاجِهِنَّ مِنَ الْمُشْرِكِينَ) because of there polytheist husbands (mushrikin) and NOT at there presence
            3-here is a more authentic hadith sense it’s from Saheeh muslim:

            So yeah, once again, get your fact straight. And unless you have concrete historical references from objective historians. Don’t say the prophet is a rapist. There is always a probability that you might be wrong. And insulting people faith is never cool.

          • Daisytoo

            You may find it significant that there is some kind of interpretation that makes it okay that Muslims raped captive war booty (aka females) as long as it wasn’t in the presence of their infidel husbands. I don’t. Moreover, not only did Mohammad know – he personally demanded one of the captured women for his own use:

            I drove them along until I brought them to Abu Bakr who bestowed that girl upon me as a prize. So we arrived in Medina. I had not yet disrobed her when the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) met me in the street and said: “Give me that girl.” (Sahih Muslim 4345)

          • Jawad Lahlou

            You might not know that, but Hadith is what we call today “reported facts”. Those reported facts are man made and sometimes tempered with to promote an idealogy or another.

            Therefor, Hadiths are not always reliable. The only reliable (relevant to Islam) words there are, are the words written in the Coran.

            Find me a sourate explaining that men can abduct and rape victims and I’ll bow down.

            Meanwhile, let’s not be cute and pretend that kind of stuff hadn’t happened in Occident at that time. So has so many terrible things. Slavery is an awful thing and yet, it remained untouched until the first half of the 18th century. And that created a civil war. Yet, you don’t see me saying that all white men are evil.

            So please, start relativising, be open to the fact that every religion, every culture, every tradition has good and bad elements. Nothing is intrasicly evil, nothing is indubitably good. Everything is relative.

          • Daisytoo

            Let’s not bring other centuries and cultures into a discussion about present day Islam, shall we? Try to stick w/what’s being discussed. Want to see how Islam degrades women? Look at Islamic law as it’s actually practiced in any Islamic regime.

          • Jawad Lahlou

            Every argumentation is on reference to something else, precedent are the basis of law therefor are always relevant especially when you discuss cultural aspect of a civilization.

            I’m the citizen of an islamic theocracy and yet it is written in my constitution that men and women are equal. How is that degrading to women?!

            AGAIN : STOP GENERALIZING FOR GOD SAKE!

            Well at least you let the space for discussion, for exchange of ideas, of conceptions (or misconceptions) but there is a debate… and cuddo to you for that. But I’m getting a little tired of this… and i have to go back to writing on my project.

            So good luck to you. And try to avoid putting eveybody on the same boat next time 🙂 Cheers.

          • neoLiberal

            “Let’s not bring other centuries and cultures into a discussion about present day Islam”

            That’s odd. You’re the one choosing literal interpretation of ancient texts not written in modern literal style.

          • isabella

            Daisytoo you are a genius among donkeys.

          • Daisytoo

            :)! Their braying is getting awfully loud. I’ll be taking a break today.

          • Odd Jørgensen

            Ah, the good old “But those other guys did it too” excuse, it never gets old does it?

          • Daisytoo

            Never, ever does it get old.

            Liberals, Muslims, moral relativists and other odd and assorted fatalists adore employing circular logic. It’s a wonder, given how dizzy they must make themselves, that we’re not continually having to scrape them up from the sidewalk.

          • AlexBaker

            Here is some linear logic. Your main argument (for the last while at least) was that historical islamic cultural attitudes were bad, and that makes modern islam equally bad across the board. Yet western cultures were (roughly, because its hard to compare atrocities) equally amoral and now they are not as bad. Therefore contemporary Islam is more bad. That is circular, because it asserts islam is bad now, as evidence for the point islam is bad now, yet all you did was talk about the past.

            And for the record, I’m an atheist, and more importantly an anti-theist, so I actively disapprove of all organised faith. Before that, however, I’m a decent human being who can’t stand constant ad hominem attacks from people trying to debate complex issues over the internet. Especially when they claim to be masters of logic and reason.

          • neoLiberal

            Right wing puritanical preaching, another one that never gets old.

          • hippiepooter

            Daisytoo, I salute you.. Nothing like a remorseless presentation of the true nature of Islam from the mouth of its daddy and his hucksters to get a Muslim to show his true nature.

          • Daisytoo

            Thank you and yes, almost immediately being called a bitch by a Muslim ‘feminist’ when I stood my ground is pretty telling 🙂

          • Marinus of LFC

            He actually said “bitch please” which is more of a humorus phrase. I accept you’re probably not privvy to how other people speak, but it doesn’t make your ignorance the standard for all others.

          • Daisytoo

            I understand gay lingo. Moreover, I get that it’s hostile towards women and is so whether gay or heterosexual, Muslim or atheist.

            Oh no … I said that gay men can be hostile to women. Arrest me.

          • Eugene Goostman

            You really shouldn’t indulge this bigot by engaging them in debate. You won’t change anything they believe, they will just drag you down to their level.

          • Niels Henriksen

            “the prophet was not aware of what happen as he was not there”

            So much for his powers of prophecy ;o)

          • AndrewMelville

            You are whitewashing Mohammed, Police Be Upon Him.

          • mastersoftheobvious

            how about Pigs be upon him?

          • mastersoftheobvious

            Here’s the deal. We should not care one single DAMN what is in the Koran or what Mohamed said. Islam is evil and it needs to be eliminated from the earth.

          • neoLiberal

            Society will be better off without any religion. Religions are a hangover from the age of mysticism. We have science and knowledge now, no need for religion. Personal faiths, fine, but it doesn’t have to be the out dated religious dogma of a time long ago. Let’s top believing in mysticism and just recognize that all the ancient religions were just about ancient politics, because that is exactly what they would have been. Moses today would be classed a terrorist. Mohammed would be just another oil sheik. Jesus today would be just another Russell Brand.

            You have to think about how those ancient events would play out in the modern age. In the old days, stories were handed down from generation to generation. Now we hand down science based knowledge and public records.

          • Mr Trainbeans

            Did you care about any of this before 9/11? why did the eternal rapeyness of islam suddenly become the Gospel Truthiness on that day in history, much like Dec 7th 1941 exposed the insectile untrustworthiness of the Japanese gestalt or August 4th 1914 heralded the vicious amoral sadism of the German psyche? like what the frigging hell

          • Daisytoo

            More: Muhammad personally demanded one of the captured women for his own use:

            I drove them along until I brought them to Abu Bakr who bestowed that girl upon me as a prize. So we arrived in Medina. I had not yet disrobed her when the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) met me in the street and said: “Give me that girl.” (Sahih Muslim 4345)

          • neoLiberal

            Reminds me of the times in history when we married off kids for the sake of international treaties between countries. Oh and let’s not forget the metaphorical use of language in old religious texts. Scholars of religious studies have for some time accepted that religious texts are not to be taken literally in a modern context. Literal translation of any ancient text into modern text will read as very bizarre. Further worsened by revisionism and re-translating over the ages, often politically influenced re-tellings of stories.

            I mean, seriously, resurrection? Classic ancient fantasy stuff. Personally I like the Harry Potter stories. And what’s with the hundred year old vampires and adolescents? That’s just wrong.

          • Daisytoo

            It’s always amusing when liberal atheists take up the cause of the one religion they will defend – Islam.

          • neoLiberal

            I’m not defending any religion or even atheism. I’m defending the right to offend, or rather the right to defend a perceived offensive point of view. Je suis Charlie and all that. Y’see, freedom of expression is a two way street.

            You’re entitled to your view (i.e. opinion), I’m not saying your are right or wrong. I’m just saying your view is biased based on your world experience. My views are biased too, but they are biased based on my experience of many cultures, not just my own.

          • Daisytoo

            You can convince yourself all you want. You are not persuading me.

          • neoLiberal

            I don’t need to. I know your opinions are based on your “my world view”. It’s the same for everyone.

          • mastersoftheobvious

            The reason you appear to adhere to the liberal dogma that all religions are essentially the same is that you appear to know next to nothing about any religion.

            Except that of PC.

          • neoLiberal

            You appear to know of propaganda. But you are good at deflection.

          • isabella

            It’s not really about a religion with them. It’s about race, they protect anything seen as non white as their white guilt complex doesn’t allow for any logical thinking.

          • Jeremy Smith

            Well said. These dumb liberals somehow think that Islam is a race.

          • mastersoftheobvious

            Deflection?

          • neoLiberal

            Exactly. Everything everyone write here is propaganda and deflection. It’s all “my world” views.

          • isabella

            More people are killed by Islamists each year than in all the years of the Spanish Inquisition combined.

            More civilians were killed by Muslim extremists in two hours on September 11th than in the 36 years of sectarian conflict in Northern Ireland.

            Islamic terrorists murder more people every day than the Ku Klux Klan has in the last 50 years.

            19 Muslim hijackers killed more innocents in two hours on September 11th than the number of American criminals executed in the last 65 years.

          • neoLiberal

            The Romans did plenty of killing. So did Ghenkis Khan. So did Hitler. And let’s not mention how many God has killed with natural disasters he could have prevented. Oh wait, it’s a pointless comparison.

            What’s your point? Did I miss a memo, are we now classifying good and bad by by kill rate? You forgot to mention that the majority of the victims of Islamic extremism are Muslims.

          • Eugene Goostman

            And in Delaware in your United States, the age of consent up until the 1900s was 7 years old.

            What else you got?

          • AndrewMelville

            And the religion is rubbish, and the application even worse.

          • Jeremy Smith

            Muhammad’s example was disproportionately bad compared to the rest of humanity. Who would want to emulate this asshole?

          • Billy

            Bitch please! How can you talk about interpretation of reality when you believe in a fairytale sky god and follow out of date guidance on life that predates even the renaissance? You are interpreting reality incorrectly, it’s 2015. People shouldn’t be killed over their sexuality, for one point, if you follow your peaceful religion you would disagree with that statement. That makes you in my eyes complicit in murder and a murderous ideology. People shouldn’t be put to death or punished for saying certain fairytale sky gods don’t exist either. Wahhabism is a relatively new strain and a dangerous ideology please don’t defend it in anyway. It’s dangerous. Try to understand that you have been brainwashed since a very young age to think the way you do. It will take great strength of mind to break the hold it has on you. It is impossible to talk seriously about these pressing matters while you are blinded by the thick fog of your faith. By the way did you know they used to blow tobacco smoke up drowned peoples’ anus to revive them? That was only 200 years ago. We’ve found better ways of reviving people nowadays. Let go of your troublesome book.

          • Jawad Lahlou

            All muslims are not wahabists. There are many currents in suni islam (Malekites, soufists, …) peaceful currents.

            Please stop assuming that I’m homophobe, sexist, etc because I’m muslims. It’s like assuming that every christian is homopobe and sexist.

            We do have a brain and we do interprete our book, we interprete our faith to our beliefs, men of peace interpret it as an omen of peace, men of grief, violent men interpret it out of anger and apply it to gain power.

            No all muslims are violent men. Assuming the contrary is not just racist it’s inhumane. Coz then you’ll deny humanity, concience, differentiation between good and evil, to 1.2 billion of people.

          • Billy

            This article refers specifically to Saudi Arabia and it’s Wahhabi power mongers, I’m sure there are many more schools of thought on Islam as there are egos. Criticising Islam/muslims isn’t racist as you know muslim isn’t a race thing, except between themselves in a tribal way. Criticising any instructive text same for bible, same for the instructions on how to deal with psychosis in the 1900’s is extremely vital right now, blind faith is the biggest enemy. I don’t have a problem with people trying to interpret any ancient text. The issue is primarily when those people decide to hurt other people because their invisible friend told them to, because they are the rules as they understand them. It’s not people who are the problem here it is the message. If it’s so pure how come it is so misinterpreted? How come the majority of muslims have to defend it with death threats and riots?..not necessarily you but the majority over the past few years. In Pakistan another secularist has been hacked to death today by religious students. I know plenty of non-violent ex-muslims they are my friends, but they aren’t religious, they would be very afraid to tell their parents this however. Nothing indicates to me that these are peaceful ideologies in any way. I’m not buying it. There are also very recent articles written by muslim clerics that state Islam is not a religion of peace. They are unapologetic about this. Just be straight up. If you want to stand up for what is right, it should be secularism and humanism as it is there that the most progressive ideas are forming. Islam in 21st century thinking is a huge contradiction and I would feel sorry for anyone trying to reconcile these two.

          • neoLiberal

            I’ve been to Morocco and what you describe is is nothing like the reality I witnessed. Morocco is very cosmopolitan. Are you sure you were in Morocco? Possibly you visited some rural areas, in which case that is hardly representative.

          • Daisytoo

            Are you sure you’re on this planet?

          • neoLiberal

            Yes. But perhaps you’re in a mirror universe.

          • Daisytoo

            No that would be you in your meaningless realm of moral relativity.

          • neoLiberal

            It’s only meaningless to YOU. But that’s okay, because you’re important to you, which is all that matters.

          • Jawad Lahlou

            I perfectly agree. In a lot of ways having a unilateral stand point on global faced issues is not only umproductive but tend to turn you into a complete douche. Egotiscal, ethnocentric, borderline racist douche, what the hell, super racist douche. 😀

          • Daisytoo

            Go smoke a joint w/your community college friends and discuss all of your earth shattering notions w/them. I’m sure they’ll be duly impressed. I’m not.

          • neoLiberal

            Been on this planet for over 50 years. Experienced much of it too. In my experience people often form very biased views when they have NOT experienced much of the world. So easy to label an entire demographic from a distance.

          • Daisytoo

            So, being over 50 somehow disqualifies you from smoking a joint and bloviating w/your community college friends?

          • neoLiberal

            No, been there, done that. Though not smoked anything; stupid thing to do, act against your biology.

          • mastersoftheobvious

            Wrong, neo. It is meaningless, at best. In reality suicidal comes closer to being the accurate description.

          • neoLiberal

            Again, in YOUR “my world view”. Everything is relative.

          • neoLiberal

            Nope. Just in your “my world view”.

          • mastersoftheobvious

            Nope, yourself. You have just destroyed your own argument. Your “my world view” is how you see it not how it is. And your world view clashes with reality. And nobody gets to make their own reality. Anyone’s “my world view” is meaningless when compared to reality. You are not special.

          • neoLiberal

            You just made my point and you don’t even realize it.

          • mastersoftheobvious

            Wrong again. You keep making MY point and you don’t realize it.

          • neoLiberal

            Nope, you’re making my point. And you’re falling for it again and again.

          • mastersoftheobvious

            Critical thinking has never been an attribute of liberals (if it was they wouldn’t be liberals) but arrogantly repeating something over and over and over that is just flat out stupid takes it to another level.

            Your “my world view” foolishness might apply to video games but it’s of little value in the real world.

          • neoLiberal

            Same could be said of left and right wingers.

          • mastersoftheobvious

            Moral equivalence is the best you can do? I guess I’ve been wasting my time.

          • neoLiberal

            Toodles, pip-pip. Oh and look! Squirrels!

            Yes, perhaps you have. In more ways than one. Your opinions are no more or less entitled than anyone else’s.

          • Marinus of LFC

            I don’t know if to salute you for travelling around that barbaric country whilst no doubt looking like some 1930s anthropologist or shake my head at the sheer nonsense you have posted.

          • Daisytoo

            You wish I looked like some anthropologist from the 1930’s. But I’ll bet you even wish more that I looked like Lawrence of Arabia so that you could hook up w/me.

          • Marinus of LFC

            You seem to find Lawrence of Arabia sexually appealing, but at the same time you seem to be attempting to insult me by implicitly calling me gay. Irony? Perhaps you’re just being honest and questioning my character for potentially being interested in someone like you – if I were, that would be a fair criticism.

          • kat karsecs

            Hmmm, wow, you saw depressed looking women in Morocco selling pots on the streets? That’s horrible, and I know exactly what you mean: I’ve seen homeless women out panhandling on the streets of every American city I’ve ever been in, most of them terribly depressed as well. (And as a US citizen, I’ve been to a LOT of US cities.) Very little is done to help them either. Many of them are victims of domestic abuse, incestuous rape, non-incestuous rape, and random attacks, not to mention being scorned by upstanding, care-free Americans just for being homeless in the first place.

            While you were in Morocco making these keen observations, did you happen to notice any white Euro-American men over there looking for teenage prostitutes? Because, surprise! white Euro-American men may very well be the biggest supporters of underage prostitution in non-white countries like Thailand, Cambodia, Morocco, and everywhere else it goes on, which is everywhere.

            Or haven’t you heard about child sex trafficking? Yeah, it’s a real thing, HUGE business, and it goes on all over Europe and the US too, driven by those non-Muslim men hungry for child flesh. Heck, in the US it’s often a generational thing within families, regardless of their race or religion. It’s a big problem in Oakland, for example, where I used to live and saw some of it, and knew women who’d been involved in it, first-hand. I have friends who’ve suffered horrible sexual abuse as children, and in some cases continue to do so. And others who’ve been raped as adults. And strangely, even though it’s illegal to do all those things in the US, they continue unabated. No Western government really does all that much to deal with child sex trafficking, nor even rape of adult women. Rape culture, whatever you may think of the term, is a real thing and an integral part of our “culture”. Or have you not paid one iota of attention to any news in your entire life?

            So please shove all your asinine theories trying to pin the rape-impulse onto “Muslim” men, as if it doesn’t ever go on in the morally pure, upstanding White non-Muslim nations. Your utter naiveté is an abomination. Wise up.

          • Gary Shideler

            I applaud you Kat…

          • RD

            there is one big difference though.. the law (sourced from lay people as the country’s constitution) provides unequivocally for protection. In much of the Muslim world the law (sourced from divine writ) does not provide that protection. And however much Muslims would like to propose the nuanced distinction between religion and cultural practice, there is indeed divine sanction for rape (including child rape). One cultural and religious pillar of the Muslim world is the professing of the infallibility of their religion and their holy books. It must be cultural practice – not sanctioned in religion. If the Hadiths say it, they are not the final authority. If the Holy Koran says it, it must be wrong interpretation. In the meantime, from ISIS down to the Wahabbis to the Hizb-ut-tahrir guys and others, everyone who does it says their religion allows them to do it or condone it.

          • neoLiberal

            “there is indeed divine sanction for rape (including child rape)”

            No, there is not. Rape a child in Muslim country and you’ll be charged with raping child. Rape an adult and you’ll be charged with raping an adult. It has nothing to do with religion and more to do with cultural patriarchy.

          • RD

            @disqus_ab42271wO6:disqus would it be ok to bring out the verses of the Koran which says it is ok to force sex on female captives and slaves? Since you mentioned Muslim countries – Would it be ok to point out that in Pakistan, a man who raped a 6 year old child was let off for around a payment of USD 200 even when the family of the child did not agree? And fianlly since you mentioned cultural patriarchy – since when has religion, especially when it plays a big part in the lives of people, separated itself from cultural patriarchy? Let us not kid ourselves – despite vast wisdom all Abrahamic religions have sections of serious misogyny. The West has learnt to largely ignore those religious inspirations and placed emphasis on a secular constitution. The Muslim world largely has re-emphasized the infallibility of their holy books and drawn inspiration for their laws from there.

          • neoLiberal

            Please do show us the verses, but not in literal ancient to modern translation. Translate ancient metaphorical language to modern equivalent.

            And no one is disagreeing that laws are not being enforced in some countries. But, that is a failure of the legal framework.

          • RD

            @disqus_ab42271wO6:disqus .. all these qualifiers.. enough translations around – just google and you will find it – I do not believe the nuancing and subjecting it to qualifiers business is worth it. The Koran (all religious books, really) is a flawed book in parts. its problem is no muslim is willing to say it not be applied to laws of the land, that parts of it may be flawed or that parts of it need to be outrightly rejected and that a 1400 year old book has no place in setting the course for how lives are dictated in society. Finally everything else is a failure – the cultural practices, the legal framework, even some Muslims themselves but not their holy book. Do you not see the absurdity of the logic? The fact that the holy book is not devoid of all these other factors.

          • neoLiberal

            “I do not believe the nuancing and subjecting it to qualifiers business is worth it. ”

            Oh dear. I see the absurdity of your logic. Perhaps you should google Muslims that reject parts of their holy texts. You might be surprised.

          • Eugene Goostman

            Can I drag out the ones from the Christian bible?

            Who wins? Do we get prizes?

            “Deuteronomy 22:28-29 – If a man is caught in the act of raping a young woman who is not engaged, he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father. Then he must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he will never be allowed to divorce her.”

            “Deuteronomy 22:23-24 NAB- If within the city a man comes upon a maiden who is betrothed, and has relations with her, you shall bring them both out of the gate of the city and there stone them to death: the girl because she did not cry out for help though she was in the city, and the man because he violated his neighbors wife.”

            “Judges 21:10-24 – So they sent twelve thousand warriors to Jabesh-gilead with orders to kill everyone there, including women and children. “This is what you are to do,” they said. “Completely destroy all the males and every woman who is not a virgin.” Among the residents of Jabesh-gilead they found four hundred young virgins who had never slept with a man, and they brought them to the camp at Shiloh in the land of Canaan.”

            “Numbers 31:7-18 – Moses, Eleazar the priest, and all the leaders of the people went to meet them outside the camp. But Moses was furious with all the military commanders who had returned from the battle. “Why have you let all the women live?” he demanded. “These are the very ones who followed Balaam’s advice and caused the people of Israel to rebel against the LORD at Mount Peor. They are the ones who caused the plague to strike the LORD’s people. Now kill all the boys and all the women who have slept with a man. Only the young girls who are virgins may live; you may keep them for yourselves.”

          • Chris de Boer

            Do we live by those rules now???

          • Eugene Goostman

            I’m sure some do.

            The extent of the discussion seems to have passed you by.

          • RD

            Good you dragged those quotes out. If you notice my comments elsewhere on this page, I have mentioned all the Abrahamic religions have sections in their holy books that reek of misogyny. The difference between Western countries and the Muslim world is that Western countries have secular laws based on the constitution and even the fringe elements know what they face when their kind of fundamentalism evolves to violence against other groups including women and children.Overwhelmingly much of the societies of these countries have moved away from pervasive Christianity used as a tool to determine how people behave in public life. On the other hand, go to any Muslim country and say the Koran is hogwash or the Shariah is hogwash and experience how quickly you will be impaled to the ground. In some parts you will off course be beheaded – and I do not mean just the ISIS territories.

          • Eugene Goostman

            I wonder how much actual experience you have of Muslim countries?

            You talk in a lot of anecdotes, quoting ‘muslim gangs’ in the UK and “how quickly you will be impaled to the ground”, but my experience with crime in the UK and of ‘Christians’ in Texas and South Carolina would be that if I was to say the same about the bible, I would be shot on the spot. If we were to compare relative development, if I went to some place like a favela in Brazil and spat on the bible, I doubt I would be breathing very long.

            And why do you choose such outlandish behaviour as your yardstick? Who in their right mind would go to a non-secular country and deliberately attack their beliefs?

            But if I was to go to Malaysia or Bangladesh and engage in a debate on the validity of christianity vs islam, you would find that respectful introspection would be treated with the respect it deserves.

            You really do pick the worst possible scenario to base your judgement on.

          • RD

            Why go so far to Malaysia or Bangladesh? Try doing that in Britain – pick any Pakistani or Bangladeshi area and try it. As for Bangladesh – have you been there at all? What if I told you I could point you to to at least 10 Hindu families that I know whose girls were kidnapped and converted by force and in those societies they lived (or continue to live), nothing happened. I am not talking about the distant past – I am talking about the last 10 years. If in Texas you were to decry the bible and someone shot you, would that person go to jail and be hanged or would that person be treated as a rockstar and no lawyer would be allowed to pick up the case to fight for him. That actually happened in Pakistan for the murderer of Salman Taseer who advocated the removal of Blasphemy law. He is a rockstar, gets 5 star treatment in prison, no lawyer takes up the case against him and he directs further religious crimes. No one goes to attack the beliefs in these “non-secular” countries. People live there – minorities such as Hindus and Christians, Ahmediyyas, Yazidis. Even they do not pick up the fight with the Muslims. But sooner or later someone will kidnap their girls, foist blasphemy cases on them and off course in the case of ISIS they will enslave and rape children and show the videos too. Do you know the Hindu population of Bangladesh at the time of its independence (1971) as a percentage of the total population and its current percentage?
            Unfortunately you know very little of the Muslim world and much of it is mired in ideologies that fail to let people see the truth.

          • Eugene Goostman

            “Unfortunately you know very little of the Muslim world”

            I’ve lived ‘in the Muslim world’ for more than 24 years. I lived for 15 years in the UK – in Birmingham and Derby and Reading. I am quite familiar with the UK’s Muslim populations. I have been in my current position for nearly 5 years, working for the FO.

            “Do you know the Hindu population of Bangladesh at the time of its independence (1971) as a percentage of the total population and its current percentage?” A red herring – do you know how many people were ‘displaced’ or became refugees during the liberation war of 1971? That’s where your Hindu’s went. 40M people fled Bangladesh to West Bengal.

            Bangladeshis suffered as much from Pakistani military as did the Hindu minority.

            The people on the North West frontier and those in the Bay of Bengal are completely different and any attempt on your part to pretend they are as one is false.

            You clearly know absolutely nothing about modern Bangladesh.

          • RD

            oh you ignorant idiot! The Hindu minority did not vanish from Bangladesh in 1971. You think all the refugees in West Bengal or Assam were Hindu or that they stayed back in India from 1971? From 1971 to today is a span of 40+ years. I will make it simple – take the years 1975 to 2015. The population reduced by 200%. Off course both Hindu and Muslim Bangladeshis suffered in 1971. With what logic were the Pakistani Muslim soldiers raping women and children do you think? If Hindu in any case there is an infidel there. If Bengali Muslim they are apostates. So there is no problem there too.

          • Eugene Goostman

            “take the years 1975 to 2015. The population reduced by 200%.”

            From 13% of the Bangladeshi population to 8.3%.

            Your maths is a bit suspect, but I would hesitate before calling you ‘an ignorant idiot’.

            There has been a concerted effort, or at least a concerted effort to pretend nothing is wrong, with Bangladesh in the period from 1971 to the mid 200os, but things have changed somewhat in Bangladesh since then.

            You seem determined to find anything negative and focus entirely on that in your jihad.

            I’m sure I could find similar things that are distasteful in your countries recent past. What is your country? You seem very keen to disparage every other country, perhaps we can pull that mote from your eye over your own?

          • RD

            All your FO experience shows in the misguided actions of your government 🙂

          • Eugene Goostman

            My government? And which would that be? I am an employee of the FO, I didn’t vote for the nation that they represent.

          • RD

            Further.. since you mentioned Bangladesh, you might want to google Avijit Roy and Shafiqur Rahman to get edified on why it is par for the course to expect getting hacked to death by knives for blogging against religious fundamentalism.

          • Eugene Goostman

            “On 2 March 2015, Rapid Action Battalion arrested Farabi Shafiur Rahman, a radical Islamist for the murder of Avijit Roy. ” Looks like Bangladesh took it pretty damned seriously. Good on them. Despite his criticism of their religion. It shows how seriously they are taking democracy and secular law in that country.

            Do you get this way about everyone murdered in the US?

            This wasn’t a concerted effort by ‘Islam’, it was a murder.

            Just like Christians in the US murdered Muslims for no reason other than they were Muslim. Google ‘Craig Hicks’, it has as much relevance.

            Shafiq-ur-Rahman died at age 79, in his home, Pakistan.

            What that has to do with Bangladesh, I have no idea.

          • RD

            You may or may not gotten to the part that he was murdered for raising his voice against Islam. You might not have also reached the news – of today – that Shafiqur Rahman another blogger who wrote against religious fundamentalism was killed similarly. Avijit Roy was murdered solely for speaking out against Islamic fundamentalism. So was Shafiqur. It is indeed a concerted effort by Islamists that take inspiration from “Islam” to justify these killings. It is a fact – not an opinion. No need to try to explain it away as something else.

          • Eugene Goostman

            His murder was the work of one man.

            When crazies bomb abortion clinics in the US does that represent a concerted effort for fundamentalist christianity against atheism?

            Clutching at straws – especially given the efforts expended by Bangladesh in apprehending his killers.

          • Niels Henriksen

            True, but we don’t follow the Old Testament, do we? 😉

            And no normal Christians take ridiculous stuff like that seriously in a modern context, do they? On the contrary – they realise that these rules and commands applied in a male dominated Middle-Eastern nomadic culture several thousand years ago, and wouldn’t even dream of living by them. Yes, there may indeed be some crazy Christian cults in the US, who do, but they are indeed a very tiny minority of Christians, who mostly just ignore them or even laugh at them.

            But the vast majority of Muslims do however take the commands and teachings of the quran and the hadiths ( the handed down stories about the life of Mohammed and his ( often dirty) deeds ) very seriously and very litterally in far too many cases. That is the huge difference, and this is the underlying reason why many muslims are so intolerant, racist and oppress women big time and often have very big difficulties, when they come to live in other cultures – thinking they deserve special respect constantly and want everyone else to adapt to their very backward demands, without ever giving any respect or gratitude themselves to their hosts – and very quickly end up causing lots of very serious problems ( high crime rates, endless demands, very bad behaviour, bringing along barbaric clan norms and religious practices as well as wars and clonflicts, which they feel entitled to carry on in our streets and schools etc.) for the host nations, as we can see exploding all over Europe in recent years, because our naive, ignorant and irresponsible politicians have been asleep at the steering wheel for far too long despite tons of warnings and deep concern from their own ethnic populations – and it’s the same thing in many other parts of the world, where Muslims have arrived in substantial numbers.

            Nice culture relativistic try though, albeit a bit naive and rather ignorant ;o)

          • Jeremy Smith

            Fine. All you need to do is marry the child and then rape the child and you’ll not be charged with rape. You did know that didn’t you?

          • neoLiberal

            Are you applying your culture’s definition of rape to that of another culture? Also, are you comparing your culture’s definition of child with another culture’s definition?

            Also, which country’s legal framework and criminal definitions are you applying?

          • Jeremy Smith

            How about you tell us which definition of rape YOU are applying? Rape isn’t a universally defined concept no matter what your fantasy is.

            In many Muslim societies/culture/legal systems (we can go into detail in these if you want), marry a child and having sex with said child is NOT considered rape. Most likely, YOU would consider this rape.

            Stop with this moral relativistic crap.

          • neoLiberal

            We are actually agreeing! I am saying the same thing, definitions are not universal. I go by the definitions of the law of the land I happen to be in at any given point in time.

            Back in ancient times, the definitions were even simpler, hit puberty and you’re an adult, no matter what your age is. Plus, in ancient times younger was regarded as more fertile because they didn’t have the understanding and knowledge we have now.

          • Jeremy Smith

            Yes, but some things are so incredibly wrong even by their own definition.

            Saudia Arabia’s entire legal system is rooted in Islamic Law. Look at how Sharia is applied there with respect to rape.

            If you take an honest look, you can most definitely conclude that how the legal system deals with rape is so incredibly wrong. This would mean a criticism of Islamic Law, and by extension, Islam.

            This is a big problem with liberals (of which I am one). They don’t want to criticize Islam.

          • neoLiberal

            “some things are so incredibly wrong even by their own definition”

            But, who is to judge? And aren’t we in the west really just judging a different culture for being slower to evolve? And even as I write that I’m wrong to suggest they are slow. Just because we claim to have developed our definitions, does that give us the right to force change on to other cultures at our pace rather than one of their choosing? I can see a humanitarian saying yes to that, but someone who prioritizes sovereignty might say no. We can only lead by example.

            (Of course, there is a lot more to this whole debate. In reality nations sometimes have to turn a blind eye to some of the human rights stuff. Compromises are necessary for the world to function.)

          • Jeremy Smith

            Let’s take a pretty absurd hypothetical just for sake of argument. Let’s say it is perfectly legal in a particular country to take newborn babies and murder them immediately after they are born for no reason. No charge of murder, nothing.

            Would you object to this practice? Of course you would. Would you even remotely think of responding with “but who is to judge whether this practice is good/bad?”

            You can surely ask this question. But do you expect a serious answer on this particular hypothetical?

            So, whenever I hear the whole “who is to judge?” counter argument, this means the person saying this doesn’t really want to take stand on a certain issue due to some kind of relativism lurking in the background.

            However, I am quite glad you ask this question, as it is one that should always be asked and has the potential to be asked.

            I am willing to take a stand. And yes, it is about fighting for a certain point of view rather than throwing your hands up and claiming “who is to judge?” as if all notions of rape are equally valid in the world.

            They are not equally valid and we shouldn’t pretend to that they are.

            You can bet your bottom dollar that Saudis in Saudia Arabia are criticizing various aspects and practices of American society and culture that we think is perfectly normal but which violate their sense of ‘decency’, and quite frankly would be illegal in their country. (For example, thinking that if a woman wears provocative clothing and gets raped, it is her fault. This is quite common in their thinking. Much less so in our society. Or a woman must be accompanied by a male relative just to go out in public. These are legal requirements, not merely ‘cultural’ artificats.)

            There is a reason why the UN, the US, and other countries (particularly Western ones) are studying other countries so as to condemn them for various human rights violations. Some of these claims are exaggerated and serve a political purpose, but some are definitely on the money.

            This is all about power in the end. Countries that have power to “judge” others will inevitably do so.

            Now…

            “And aren’t we in the west really just judging a different culture for being slower to evolve?”

            Your question (rightfully) assumes that various cultures are at different points of evolution. I agree that this is the case with many cultures. For example, women can’t drive in Saudia Arabia nor become lawyers. This is real stuff. Regardless of being a liberal or a conservative, this just seems ‘wrong’ to us in the West. And even if women in SA actually want to be able to drive and to become professionally educated, they risk even speaking up about it. At least women in the West can speak up. That’s what ‘feminism’ is largely about, speaking up. Next comes turning this into organized advocacy and changing laws, practices, societal norms/expectations, etc. But that is a topic for another day and I digress.

            But yes, we are judging. If the judging is carefully considered, then there is absolutely no harm in doing so. This is where I see lots of liberals have some weird kind of guilt about ‘judging’ others they think deserve pity because they are economically weaker than us, or not white, etc. or other similar kinds of factors.

            You say: “Just because we claimed to have developed our definitions, does that give us the right to force change on to other cultures at our pace rather than one of their choosing? I can see a humanitarian saying yes to that, but someone who prioritizes sovereignty might say no.”

            This is a great question and you basically answered it yourself. This depends on who you ask this question and their particular motive for answering this question a particular way. At the geopolitical level (which I alluded to above), US public officials are going to be very careful about criticizing SA in public because SA is quite an important supplier of oil to the world. In private, this diplomat may hold very strong views which are the opposite. But the implementation of Islamic Law in SA is required since Islam is the official state religion. It is quite brutal in its application and the discrimination of non-Muslims is so incredibly blatant that you can’t make this stuff up. Look at all the millions of Indians, Pakistanis, Indonesians, and others who come to work there and are treated like utter trash and have absolutely no legal course. That wouldn’t fly in the US.

            But I speak as a non-politician humanitarian and I think a legal system based on Islamic Law is highly inhumane. Even worse, it is very difficult for such systems to actually make social progress without major, major challenges to the teachings of Islam.

            It is not about “forcing” change. But it is about applying pressure, raising awareness, being willing and courageous to criticize, not automatically giving another country/culture/legal system a default ‘victim’ status because it is not a Western country, etc. The women in Saudia Arabia need to be encouraged to speak up. Most are afraid to do so. The pace of change without any outside help will be at a snail’s pace. This is where Western governments can do a lot of good as can everyday people who at least care in theory about such issues. Judging isn’t a bad thing as long as it is done with a well-informed backdrop.

            There is a lot wrong with this world. A lot has been accomplished in terms of making social progress. All of this could not have done without “judging” the social norms of the day and challenging them. It is definitely not an easy thing to do, but undoubtedly it has to be done.

            That said, any country which implements huge portions of Sharia (Saudia Arabia, Pakistan, Bangladesh, and some others) must be willing to face criticism. It is unavoidable and inevitable. Without it, the pace of change in these societies is going to be much slower.

            Anyway, I’ll stop now. Thank you for your time and consideration.

          • neoLiberal

            Agree with much of what you wrote, and yes, it is about having the patience to lead and set examples, encourage etc. But I think we must allow them to evolve at their own pace, as difficult as that may be for us.

            Re:

            “Let’s say it is perfectly legal in a particular country to take newborn babies and murder them immediately after they are born for no reason. No charge of murder, nothing.

            Would you object to this practice? Of course you would.”

            I’d object as I would object to any action that serves no purpose.

          • Jeremy Smith

            That’s where I disagree with you. I don’t think there is much “evolution” in these countries if left at their own pace. No country is perfect, but some are definitely better off than others when it comes to respecting rights of children, women, minorities of all kinds, etc.

            These nations need to set an example for others and help the lesser developed ones evolved. This is being a good steward of what it means to be a better human.

            A lot of these countries where Sharia is implemented have absolutely no interest in ‘evolving’ as this directly challenges the status quo. The power players are not going to willingly give up their power.

            Countries that have the means to criticize but do not do so are doing a disservice to humanity especially when it comes to dealing with Islamic Law.

          • neoLiberal

            True, we do have a differing opinion on the evolution point.

            “Countries that have the means to criticize but do not do so are doing a disservice to humanity”

            True to a point. I think we have to remember the complexity of the world we live in. If every country had every resource it needed, without limits, we could criticize as much as we wanted to. But, we have to balance our needs with our desires. That will remain the case for a few hundred years still.

          • Eugene Goostman

            You are wrong about Bangladesh.

          • Eugene Goostman

            That isn’t universal with respect to Shariah law. I live in a Muslim country with Shariah law and there has been a major effort over the last few years with respect to rape and child abuse.

            Most modern Muslims also think Arabs are uncultured, stone-age misogynists.

            Don’t fall into the trap of thinking that Arabs represent Islam – they are a small part of a large religion.

          • Jeremy Smith

            There are far more non-Arab Muslims than Arab Muslims. The Arab Muslims think of themselves as the “pure” Muslims and the rest as second class Muslims.

            You should see the stone age misogyny present in Pakistan, a country with a huge number of Muslims with Islam as the official state religion.

            In the end, there is only one Islam. All other ‘sects’ of Islam are either hypocrites or apostates to be converted, taxed/subjugated, or killed.

            In the end, there are only two types of Muslims, practicing or non-practicing. There is no such thing as moderate/progressive/liberal/modern Muslim. This is all propaganda designed to conceal what the Qur’an, Ahaditha, Tafsir, and Fiqh really teach.

          • Eugene Goostman

            Have you been to Pakistan? I have.

            Invariably the Pakistanis I spoke to were well-educated and worldly and didn’t exhibit any ‘stone age misogyny’. Which means that it isn’t a nationalist or religious doctrine, it is a consequence of ignorance and poverty.

            “There is no such thing as moderate / progressive / liberal / modern Muslim.”

            Complete bullshit. You just haven’t read very much.

          • Jeremy Smith

            You’re total bullshit. I’m of South Asian origin you moron. I know much more about these societies than you will ever know.

            You talk to the best-of-the-best Pakistanis and think this represents Pakistani society. Get a fucking clue. Total confirmation bias on your part. You have no idea how Pakistani society works.

          • Eugene Goostman

            You are American.

            I have lived in 4 different Muslim countries for a total of about 24 years in the last 50 years.

          • Jeremy Smith

            Look at you trying to “brand” me. I stick to the facts and don’t need to engage in personal credibility campaigns like you. You don’t understand Pakistani society. You don’t understand Indian society either.

            You probably think you understand how “secularism” works in an Indian context.

            You’re underinformed and overopinionated about Islam and a lot of other issues it seems.

          • Jeremy Smith

            Go read Anatol Lieven’s “Pakistan: A Hard Country”. You will quickly realize how little you actually know about Pakistan.

          • Eugene Goostman

            As you don’t bother actually asking any questions, you have no fucking clue what I know or don’t know about Pakistan.

          • Jeremy Smith

            You discredited yourself awhile back. I don’t need to ask questions to those who discredit themselves. Your total unwilling to even consider Islam discredits you instantly.

            If you want a question: why should I believe anything you say at this point?

          • Eugene Goostman

            It seems that anyone that disagrees with you discredits themselves.

            You make sweeping statements that are easily proven false. You have gotten increasingly frustrated that your killer arguments are so easily disproven, so you resort to name calling and now, telling me that I am discredited.

            You argue like a child.

            Grow up.

          • Jeremy Smith

            Totally ignoring Islam while continue standing by your claim that it is all about “development and poverty” is poor argumentation.

            This is the best you have to offer? (My second question.)

          • Eugene Goostman

            Education and increased income have been directly linked to a lessening in religious doctrine.

            Look at Bangladesh as a prime example of an impoverished Muslim country that has, through education and increasing their economy, has created an egalitarian, democratic, moderate Muslim state, when they could have ended up as a poorer Pakistan.

          • Jeremy Smith

            I also don’t fucking have a clue as to what you know or don’t about quantum physics, music theory, etc.

            My presupposition is that you are hyping what you know. This is the Internet after all.

          • Eugene Goostman

            And yet you felt qualified to tell me what I know. You are wonderful. How your country must be proud of you.

            What is clear is that your frustration level is directly linked to your argument – as you run out of argument, your frustration increases until you just start throwing epithets around.

            Sorry, I don’t feel any compunction to agree with your purely subjective arguments. You have given nothing more than your own opinion, but demand that it is accepted and everyone should submit to your point of view.

            It doesn’t work that way.

            You are an American of South Asian ethnicity. That gives you no more insight to Islam than does the opinion of a Swede or Dutchman or Brit.

          • Eugene Goostman

            “I stick to the facts and don’t need to engage in personal credibility campaigns like you. ”

            Yes, instead you call people morons and tell them “I’m of South Asian origin” “I know much more about these societies than you will ever know.”

            No “engag[ing] in personal credibility campaigns” whatsoever. Maybe a touch of hypocrisy, though.

          • Jeremy Smith

            Yes, definitely hypocrisy considering your purely personal subjective opinions aren’t very helpful either.

            When you don’t have facts to argue, you engage in personal subjectivity.

            That just shows you have little to stand on.

          • Eugene Goostman

            Excuse me?

            You are accusing me of exactly what you, yourself engaged in, then have the temerity to tell me off.

            You will note that at no time have I questioned your intelligence or called you any name – unless you didn’t like being ‘outed’ as an American?

          • Jeremy Smith

            Anyone who doesn’t want to acknowledge the role of Islam and Islamic Law has no credibility. Simply changing the discourse to other countries to show us how “smart” you are is not credibility. This is evasion and deception and is dishonest.

          • Eugene Goostman

            Show me where I “doesn’t want to acknowledge the role of Islam and Islamic Law”

            Please, be specific.

          • Jeremy Smith

            You said it is not a religious issue. Do I have to spell out which religion?

          • Eugene Goostman

            Be specific – you stated “Anyone who doesn’t want to acknowledge the role of Islam and Islamic Law has no credibility.” I demand that you show where I did that.

            Your claims that I did aren’t good enough.

          • Jeremy Smith

            The fact that you have lived in 4 Muslim countries for a total of about 24 years and STILL say that religion does not play a role is even worse.

            I’m sorry but this is bordering on the laughable. So tell us, how do you think the Ahmadiyas can better assert their rights in one of the Muslim countries you claim to have lived in?

          • Eugene Goostman

            You keep saying this – but you have not shown where I said that.

            Please, be specific. Show me where I said Islam has no bearing.

          • Jeremy Smith

            Total dodging the issue. By the context of the conversation, it should be OBVIOUS we were talking about Islam. I have been talking about Islam the whole time.

            You haven’t lived in a Muslim country. Total bullshit. I’m done dealing with you as you are a dishonest person.

            You aren’t even worth engaging with anymore. This is my last response to someone who wants us to think they know what they are talking about.

            You couldn’t tell me the first thing about Islam without reading it on wikipedia.

            What a total waste of my time. Have a good day.

          • Demilade

            Some Arabs think they’re the true Muslims, the rest are just pretenders.

          • Eugene Goostman

            How about you define ‘child’.

            It certainly isn’t as clear-cut as you seem to think it is. If you are in the US, it is 18, if in the UK, it is 16, if in Spain it is 13.

            In other countries it is moveable, depending on the onset of menstruation, which could be as young as 10 or 11.

            So where do you draw your line?

          • Jeremy Smith

            I am not going to give you a universal definition of ‘child’ because most likely it is not going to be accurate.

            What I will do is criticize a legal system that has defined ‘child’ such that someone well below 18 can be forced into marriage without his/her consent or without really a clear understanding what marriage is/isn’t. Most likely a 10-11 year does not have enough life experience to fully understand the scope of such an arrangement.

            In countries where these practices are allowed, they absolutely must be criticized. In countries where these practices are allowed as per Islamic Law, then the Islamic Law should be criticized. This, of course, can be taken further with a criticism of Islam itself.

          • Eugene Goostman

            I asked where you draw your line.

            And child brides aren’t limited to Islam – look at Africa, half the countries on that continent have ages of consent and marriage as low as 12-13, and those are ‘Christian’ majority countries like Angola or dual-religion countries like Burkina Faso.

            China has 14 as the age of consent for both marriage and sex.

            Then there’s the most populous Muslim country in the world, Indonesia, with the age of consent at 19 for heterosexuals and 18 for homosexuals. The minimum age of marriage in Iran is 18 for men and 16 for women. The age of consent for sex in Lebanon is 18 for both males and females. Sexual activity outside marriage is illegal in Oman. The legal age for marriage is 18 for both men and women. – kind of kicks that whole ‘Islam child brides’ thing into touch, doesn’t it?

            What’s clear is that it’s a development and poverty issue, not a religious issue.

            As countries become more developed, they raise their ‘standards’, as India is trying to do.

            As far as arranged marriages being ‘forced’, I have a number of friends of varying nationalities that have had arranged marriages. They are intelligent, educated and surprisingly happy. They are all Asian of one form or another – it’s a common occurrence in India, Indochina, etc.

          • Jeremy Smith

            You want a line? Make it 18 across the board for the world. This is a relatively ‘safe’ number for an age. Leave some wiggle room, but not much. Do you have a problem with my answer?

            Who said anything about child bride being a problem exclusive to Islam? You’re the one who is bringing in all these other countries to avoid having to confront Islam.

            Now, on to child marriages. It should be outlawed everywhere, even in countries that are not Islamic. The practice shouldn’t be done, no matter how ‘happy’ the kids are with it in the end.

            I am not afraid of criticizing Islam. Nor do I immediately divert attention to some other religion, country, that is non-Islamic that has the same child marriage practices. Why can’t people focus on Islam (yes, we can also focus on the other countries as well)??

            I don’t understand this total unwillingness to even look at Islam.

            You say: “What’s clear is that it’s a development and poverty issue, not a religious issue.”

            This is totally off base. Saudia Arabia has huge amounts of child marriage and has a relatively high per capita income. Pakistan also has a huge number of child brides and has a low per capita income. Indonesia also has prevalent marriages with a respectable per capita income. Iran is a middle income country and has tons of child marriages.

            You simply do not want to acknowledge that Islam is a factor to be considered and believe it purely a development and poverty issue.

            The facts are not on your side.

          • Eugene Goostman

            I am very comfortable addressing the inequities in Islamic countries, the point I was making was that inferring that they are alone is a mistake.

            And as far as Iran and Saudi go, cash reserves have little to do with social development – they are clearly living in a bubble of medieval thought. Which is exactly why I said ” it’s a development and poverty issue, not a religious issue.” and I stick by it.

            You can have all the fancy buildings in the world, but if you base your society on something other than equal human rights, you are undeveloped.

            It’s so easy for Westerners to point the finger, when you have only been ‘civilised’ for a few years. There are States in the US that allowed marriage at 14 in the 20th century. There are states in Europe that allowed the same at ages as low as 12, this century.

            Currently, the majority of European countries allow marriage at age 16, and 8 allow marriage at age 14 or 15.

            You are the outlier at your demand that nothing occur before age 18.

            Are you North American?

          • Jeremy Smith

            You asked me where I draw the line. The line SHOULD be at age 18. Do you want to start arguing the differences between positives and normatives? You’re doing all kinds of dancing around the issue to support your totally flimsy claims.

            You are totally unwilling to even look at Islam as a factor in explaining a lot of these practices. You have zero credibility with me by defining terms to support your claim that it is about “development and poverty”. The two terms juxtaposed as such are well known to those who study these issues and not just making stuff up to justify not look at Islamic text, teachings, and history.

            Sorry but you’re not being honest here.

          • hermit

            Originally, the age of consent in England was set at 12. However, in 1875 the Offence Against the Persons Act raised it to 13 in Great Britain and Ireland. The Criminal Law Amendment Act of 1885 raised it to 16.
            Age of consent reform – Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
            en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_of_consent_reform

            Just sayin….

          • Sarka

            Turkey recently put the girl marriage age down to twelve (Islamist influence). In Iran the situation is confused by discrepancy between sharia and civil law – shariah law is now minimum nine years of age for girls.

          • Eugene Goostman

            I can’t find any evidence to support your claim about Turkey. Care to share your sources?

            And Iran is an outlier, even among Muslim countries. There’s a very good study done on child marriage in Iran; The Difficulties of Changing the Age at Marriage in Iran – well worth a read for an insight into the social background.

          • mamiel

            Relativism does not make unconsentual sex with a child who isn’t sexually developed ok. Sorry

          • neoLiberal

            Depends on the definitions, because legally it already does in some countries, even in Europe. Your personal morals make your definitions different to those of a legal framework.

          • Sarka

            Hey, there was a huge scandal in the place where I live (Czech Republic) a few years ago. A Qatari prince was living here and was investigated for abuse, procurement etc…of underage schoolgirls, some as young as twelve.

            He was arrested , tried and convicted. (custodial sentence). Throughout the process the Qatari state was kicking up hell. Not so much saying the verdict was unfair, for it was a bit open and shut, but saying this poor Qatari should not have to linger in a horrid jail full of infidels but should be extradited to Qatar, where – of course (ho ho) there were laws against child rape and of course (ho ho) he would serve his sentence,

            The senior state prosecutor, a woman, said ha bloody ha…and fought the extradition very hard… it cost her her job, because the Minister of Justice – a slick corrupt fellow who liked to go to Arab embassy receptions, moved heaven and earth to rescue the prince from jail…saying all the while that OF Course, he would be imprisoned in Qatar.

            So, he eventualy buggered off, and – surprise surprise – he wasnt arrested back home. He is still walking around free. Why? The qataris said that there was a problem with translating the thousand pages or so of czech evidence…!
            Anyway, everyone knows that Qataris, especially the thousands of princes, would never be jailed just for the pecadillo of fucking infidel twelve-year-olds in another stupid inferior western country…The prince at the time in Czech had great difficulty understanding that he had done anything truly wrong….

            .

          • kat karsecs

            First of all, our law may provide “unequivocally” for protection, but that’s actually fairly recent: well into the 20th century US law did NOT provide for protection. Women in America were not even allowed to legally divorce until the 2nd half of the 20th century, and were not legally entitled to even their children if their husband divorced them. And even now, perhaps you’ve missed how women are frequently accused of “asking for it”, or the myriad cases where rape cases are dismissed for myriad reasons like not having enough evidence for conviction, the rapist being a fine upstanding member of a community who’s protected by his ‘buddy’ network, or the woman simply being accused of somehow asking for it. Etc. etc.

            Second, rape and pedophilia and child brides are actually illegal in virtually all Muslim-majority countries. Only a couple of those countries operate under full Sharia law: Iran and Saudi Arabia. All the rest have either civil, secular law (typically modelled on the West’s) or mixtures of Sharia and civil. However, as we can see in both the West and in Muslim-majority countries, just because laws are on the books doesn’t, sadly, mean they will be unequivocally enforced, for a variety of reasons, first among them being that women, in all eras and places, typically get the short end of the stick when it comes to these things.

            As another example of how this works, meth manufacturing is completely illegal in the US; does it get unequivocally enforced? No, it does not. In many parts of the country meth labs are profuse, and the percentage of them that get busted, and the number of people who get successfully prosecuted for it are pretty small compared to their number. The Law is an ideal; the reality is inevitably quite different.

            Third, I’m afraid you have a very one-dimensional view of how Sharia law, the Hadith, and the infallibility of the Qur’an works. When someone talks about Sharia, one has to always ask, “WHICH Sharia?” Historically there are many versions of Sharia and some of them diverge quite a bit. Sunni has several different schools, of which the IS and Wahhabiyya are but TWO, and considered, in general, by Muslims themselves, as neither representative nor orthodox. Shi’a Islam has its own traditions of Sharia law, with several subsets of its own, such as the Ismailis. There’s also Islamic groups that don’t even fall into either category, like the Ibadi of Oman and Zanzibar, or the Bektashi Sufis, or Turkish Alevi.

            Islam does not have, and never had, a single authorising body like the Catholic Church has in the Vatican, so it’s nonsensical to speak of what “Islam” believes without 1,001 qualifiers as to which KIND of Islam, which region, and/or which historical period you’re referring to. You wouldn’t say that “all Christians believe the Bible to be infallible and what it says goes for all.” That would be ridiculous beyond belief. In addition, you’ve completely ignored the fact that not all Muslims simply accept what the Qur’an says as “infallible”, partly for the reason I just gave, but also because they are humans, and like all humans, they make up their own minds about what is/is not morally or cultural acceptable to them. Before you go making blanket statements about what “all Muslims” believe, you better inform yourself as to how complex Islamic traditionS actually are, and what people actually believe in real life.

          • RD

            As to an uni-dimensional view of how “Sharia, Hadiths..” work, my question is a simple one – in your knowledge, how many main stream schools of thought exist? Of these how many vary on what the Koran says about women and children slaves and captives as to what you can do with them sexually. Of these how many suggest unequivocally that the practices of the prophet especially related to the treatment of women and children (specifically captive or infidel women and children) is not right – or let’s be more charitable and say – is not right for the times? How many suggest the Koran got it wrong? Or let us be more charitable and say the holy book may or may not have gotten it wrong for the prophet’s time but it is certainly wrong for these times. In how many Muslim countries will you not get a punishment for suggesting the Koran may be fallible? One of the fundamental tenets is that the Koran is not the prophet’s book, it is Allah’s book and it is supposed to be perfect for all ages. I assume you have specific answers to these questions. Because I do.
            Please note my concerns and comments are for these times not for either the past or the distant future. It is an important historical reference that the Christian world was a violent and misogynistic world once upon a time. It is largely not today primarily because both Reformation and Renaissance happened in the Western world. It did not happen in the Muslim world.
            It is your choice but you are making the simple mistake of assuming the person presenting the opposing argument is a dodo.

          • kat karsecs

            I didn’t assume you were a ‘dodo’, you asked a reasonable question. But you seemed to assume that all of Islamdom is one unvarying thing, that all Muslims share the same unwavering set of beliefs and practices, and that Shariah law is the same thing at all times in all places. It is not. That’s great if you have specific answers to all your questions already: let’s have them. Since you’re one of the ones making the positive claim that “Shariah law” condones rape and pedophilia, present your evidence then.

            I did go to the trouble of finding a good, scholarly, comprehensive introduction on the history and varying methodologies of shariah that you should find useful. It also talks about what the ‘infallibility of the Qur’an’ really means in the Islamic context. NB that there are many schools of thought on Qur’anic INTERPETATION, and that this process continues in the modern age in direct response to modern circumstances. Also note that there are different schools of Hadith, some of which contain many items that others lack. If you already have all the answers you need, I’ll assume you’re some kind of real scholar of the religion and this site has nothing you don’t already know. But if that’s the case, I don’t know why you’re talking about the topic in such simplistic terms.

            http://www.islamawareness.net/Shariah/sh_article005.html

            As for your claims about the Christian world: please, you’re making me laugh. Violent and misogynistic “once upon a time”? Rape, sex slavery, pedophilia, child trafficking, teen prostitution, murder, wife-beating, etc. etc. continue today unabated in the “Christian world”. Cf. my earlier post about the prevalence of child sex trafficking in America and Europe, and the men from those areas who participate in the sex tourism trade. I could tell you many first-hand, personal stories about how “not” violent and misogynistic the “Christian” world is in America, at least.

            As I noted, the problem is almost nowhere not one of “condoning” such things or whether they’re illegal or not, the problem is one of enforcing the laws that are already on the books, even in the majority of Muslim-majority countries. Which, as I also noted, very few of whom actually operate under shariah law, but rather Western-styled civil law or combinations of civil and shariah; even in the latter case, child brides, rape, and pedophilia are illegal, so part of your point is actually kind of moot.

            You seem to think that just because the Reformation happened that the whole Western world became a peaceful, gender-equal place where Reason prevailed? Heheheheh, idk if you’re American, but if you pay attention there you can see how that is hardly the case. Misogyny is still rampant all over Europe and America, as well as Christian-majority nations or communitites in the Americas, Africa, and Asia, despite the many laws that try to discourage it. People will be people, no matter where they are, what religion they are, what the laws say.

            But please, if you can show me that all forms of shariah, Sunni and Shi’a, accept the same exact views about these matters, and which Qur’anic verses they’re based on, and which Hadith they all happen to interpret exactly the same way to reach identical conclusions that have not changed in 1300 years, and that these same laws are in effect in every Muslim-majority country in the world, and that all Muslims complacently accept this and have no contradictory feelings about it, do share this wisdom.

          • kat karsecs

            As an addendum, I’d like to note that Jawad’s point about child brides being considered normal in the 7th century is more valid than seems at first glance: this modern notion of people choosing for themselves who to marry, and marrying out of ‘love’, is quite new, even in the West: for the overwhelming part of history and the overwhelming number of cultures, arranged marriages were the strict norm, and in these, families frequently might arrange marriages between children not even BORN yet, in which cases as soon as the children were old enough to be considered “adults” (a culturally defined notion–some were quite young, some into their early 20s) they were married off. These arranged marriages could also have a young bride and an older man. The notion of childhood itself as we know it is also fairly recent. Arranged marriages are still the norm to this day in places like India, a Hindu nation that has plenty of its own problems with rape and pedophilia, despite both being illegal. In the US, several states allowed marriages with partners, usually brides, as young as 14 well into the 1950s. I find it abhorrent, but that’s how humans are. Modern child sex trafficking might be so huge a business now around the world because child brides are now illegal, around almost all the world. Just a thought. Basically, the argument that there’s something ‘special’ about islam that makes these things ‘acceptable’ or sanctioned is groundless: it’s a HUMAN problem, not a religious, cultural, or political one.

          • Eugene Goostman

            “In much of the Muslim world the law (sourced from divine writ) does not provide that protection. ”

            You are making things up as you go along.

            In SOME Muslim countries there are less protections for women and children than there are in the West, but in SOME majority Christian countries, in Eastern Europe, in Africa, in South America, there are similarly poor protections.

            If you go looking for fault, you will find it.

            By your statements you ignore the MAJORITY of Muslim countries that have protection for women and children.

            Just as in the US, having laws doesn’t mean that they are protected. And just like in the US, there are those that will ignore the laws to further their own ends. And just like in the US there are those in power that will, for nepotistic, for financial, for personal reasons, facilitate the preying on of women and children. You only need to read the newspapers in the US, UK, Australia, Belgium, Austria, to see of women and children preyed upon by men – despite their laws protecting from such behaviour.

            Why do you think it is any different in Muslim countries?

          • RD

            @bip60:disqus – do the majority of the Muslim countries really have protection? Which countries are you referring to? Not Pakistan I hope – where the judgement on the rape of a 6 year old was a settlement of USD 200. Not Afghanistan where a mentally handicapped woman was beaten to death by a male mob of hundreds for having supposedly burnt the Koran and a religious ministry official said the punishment was ok if the woman was an infidel. Not Saudi where Dr. Salih bin Fawzan, a member of the supreme religious council gave a fatwa that said there is no minimum age for a girl child to be married off – even if they are “in the cradle”. Not Egypt I hope – under the Muslim Brotherhood where the rape of a 19 year old coptic woman was just shrugged off under the carpet. Please tell me which and how many enlightened countries in the Muslim world offers protection to women and children in the way we understand it in the modern world – unequivocally and without any prejudice based on your religion or gender. And if these were to happen in the United States would anybody survive in their official roles after giving the kind of responses they gave in these countries? The UK is another story off course – where thousands of underage children were groomed, drugged and raped by gangs of Pakistani Muslim men in a systematic manner across tens of cities in UK for years and the government’s response was we want to be seen as secular so we cannot investigate these crimes. None of these girls were Muslim though – they were white, Sikh, Hindu but not Muslim.
            It is different in Muslim countries and amongst Muslims primarily because they largely look to religious scriptures, teachings, fatwas to find rationale for condoning such activities. Hiding our heads in in the sand isn’t going to make the reality any different.

          • Eugene Goostman

            “The UK is another story off course – where thousands of underage children were groomed, drugged and raped by gangs of Pakistani Muslim men in a systematic manner across tens of cities in UK for years”

            Yeah, about that hyperbole…

            Do you know how many rapes there are each year in the UK?

            Do you know how many ostensibly ‘Christian’ White, European or Black British men commit rape each year? How many children are groomed and abused?

            Your ‘thousands of underage children’ are but a drop in the bucket compared to the number of similar crimes committed by white males. But it doesn’t make such a good story for the Daily Mail and its readers to become outraged over, does it? It’s so much easier to blame immigrants and the children of immigrants. It’s what Goebbels would have done.

            The report that brought to light the extent of these gangs and their offending gives us the figures – 1400 incidents over 16 years. 1.6 per week in a wider population centre of more than 1.5M people.

            Not to diminish the seriousness, but to put it in perspective, there are more than 300 rapes per day in the UK. The situation in South Yorkshire represents 0.25% of the UK population, but only 0.05% of rapes.

            So, before you get all hysterically up in arms about the “gangs of Pakistani Muslim men”, you might want to balance that against the rapes and grooming done by Uncle Stevie and Grandpa Bill. Because by far the largest numbers of rape and grooming incidents and abuse of children in the UK is committed by their relatives.

          • RD

            How many of these do in large gangs? How many of these do based on the otherness of the victims’ religious identity – please do not tell me it is happenstance that no Pakistani muslim girls were groomed. Finally how many per capita of population are done by Pakistani Muslims vs whites? Or Pakistani Muslims as a ethnic group versus let us say Hindus as an ethnic group in Britain? Please do give those numbers and the story will emerge. Did UK get to the bottom of the Pakistani grooming gangs? Or are you still denying these were Pakistani Muslim grooming gangs – just some stray individuals who should not be identified as Pakistani Muslim? Since you know so much, you would also perhaps know the number of Christian and Hindu girls brazenly kidnapped in Pakistan and converted by force to become sex brides. And you would know enough to not find a connection between these 2 sets of events.

          • Eugene Goostman

            You postulate a lot, but all you are doing is throwing out ‘what if’s’, but expecting me to give you proof.

            Where’s your proof?

            You demand a lot while giving nothing in return.

          • Jeremy Smith

            Thanks for explanation. Jawad Lahlou is just lying about Islam. This is called taqiyya. Please look it up. Every non-Muslim should understand this concept. Muslims are either ignorant of what Islam teaches, in denial, or lying about it. I don’t trust them.

          • Dylan

            Taqiya is invoked only for a Sunni to protect himself/herself against an oppressive Shi’a, vice versa, or so on and so forth. It is not – as is commonly suggested by some “enlightened” Western souls with a particular agenda and insufferable paranoia – a method of integrating into “white” societies and “Islamifying” it from within.

            It is only to protect one’s actual life, their very mortality, not a way of life or culture.

            Please. Look it up.

          • Jeremy Smith

            I’ve been studying taqiyya for years. Looks like you simply read the wikipedia entry and are parroting it without actually understanding how it works in practice.

            Muslims, Shia and Sunni, tend to lie quite frequently about Islam especially if they know their audience is ignorant of what Islam actually teaches.

            I’m not talking about Islamifying a society from within. That’s your projection. I am talking about how taqiyya works and how Muslims lie to defend Islam.

            You truly do not understand taqiyya nor understand how it has has been used for centuries.

            Educate yourself before trying to “educate” me.

          • Dylan

            For someone who has studied it for years, you seemingly don’t understand the basic concept.

            Taqiya is not lying about Islam. It’s hiding one’s allegiance to a particular facet of Islam. That is how it works in practice. Ask any random Muslim, I’m sure you’ll find they agree with that description of it, independently.

            Although I’m sure to you that’s just Muslims “practising taqiya” and “lying about Islam”.

            Jeez.

          • Jeremy Smith

            Things can get quite murky with taqiyya. It is not as simple as you are making it out to be.

            For example, a Muslim will say “the 9/11 attackers were not Muslim.” Is this taqiyya?

            Also, “Islam teaches peace.” Is this taqiyya?

            The lying may include dissociating with some “violent” aspect of Islam while claiming this is not Islam with full knowledge that it is.

            It is much more complex than you describe.

          • Dylan

            It isn’t, actually. It IS that simple. Any other interpretation of taqiya (an understanding of which you seem to have pulled directly from thereligionofpeace – a frequent sight on loonwatch) is wrong. The Qur’an describes the concept in detail & also relates at least two (that I remember) anecdotes/parables on it from the time of Muhammad. It’s been a few years since I read it, granted, but I distinctly remember two.

            Again, it is NOT being dishonest about the nature of Islam itself, nor a “tactic” of distancing oneself from extremists. It is hiding one’s religious affiliation in a time of peril or a time of war, i.e. to say that one is not an adherent of Islam at all, or to say you practice one iteration of Islam when you really practice another.

          • shanob

            So, Islam does not condone rape? All the child brides would disagree with that statement if they were able to speak out. One man raped his child bride to death! It is sickening and causes people to abhor this ‘religion’. The founder of this religion had multiple child ‘brides’, they were all raped.

          • Jawad Lahlou

            Of course not. Child brides are a tradition that predates Islam. Don’t you like ever read a history book?

            “The founder of this religion had multiple child ‘brides’, they were all raped.” Really??? Where do you get your facts from exactly?

            The prophet never raped anyone, he condemn any wrongful actions against human being and fought for the protection of the innocent.

            The prophet maried Aicha when she was 8 years old. He consumated the union when she was 12, in age of procreation. Sure, if you read that historical facts with today’s preconception. But a 12 years old was considered a woman back then. And the union was political like most leaders, he had to make alliances to ensure his legacy. And Aicha is still reverred as one of the mothers of Islam and a true believer.

          • Neil Saunders

            Some narratives put Aisha’s age at the consummation of her marriage as low as 9 years old.

          • Jawad Lahlou

            Well I guess then that you’ll have to believe whatever you want to believe.

            I hope not thought.

          • AndrewMelville

            6, 9 or 12 – it’s all the same: disgusting paedophilia.

          • Neil Saunders

            No, I’ll have to believe the truth, whatever that turns out to be.

          • Jawad Lahlou

            You don’t know the truth. Neither do I, so I guess it’s a matter of beliefs.

          • Neil Saunders

            That’s a very pessimistic conclusion to draw, Jawad. If true (and I’m aware of the irony of invoking the concept), it reduces the pursuit of knowledge to a pointless farce, or an unavailing battle between different brands of guesswork.

          • Jawad Lahlou

            There is absolute/perfect science where the truth is a thing to demonstrate, to test and to ultimatly prove true. And there is human science like sociology, history and so forth where there is not absolute.

            History depends on sources, on the prulality of sources, on the objectivity of thoses sources… what you’re saying is not proven to an objective level as far as i’m concerned. But ultimatly, it can prove true as it can prove untrue. Eventually, you have to make a choice. I made mine and made yours.

          • Neil Saunders

            In other words, the fact/value distinction, which I broadly endorse.

            Still, your earlier remark suggested that you regard all truth as provisional and dependent on personal perspective.

          • isabella

            If Islam is the religion of peace, then why are ‘extreme’ muslims not extremely peaceful?

          • neoLiberal

            Because the extremists are radicals who follow a distorted version of their faith. There are plenty of peaceful Muslims in the world, the vast majority are peaceful. Even a million radicals would be a teeny tiny percentage of the total.

            http://www.muslimsforpeace.org/

          • soome

            What was a prophet doing being a man of his time anyway? Does that not in any way indicate he might not have been all that?

          • neoLiberal

            Or as high as 19. In any case back in ancient times they didn’t have arbitrary age limits. Back then puberty was likely the determination.

          • Neil Saunders

            All age limits are arbitrary (unless you believe they were handed down from on high on stone tablets). I doubt very much that Aisha would have been 19; if 9 is young by any standards, 19 would certainly have been an exceptionally advanced age for the purpose at hand.

            However, thank you for your wonderfully enlightening little history lesson. I don’t imagine any of us here might have guessed that this was so without your help.

          • Eugene Goostman

            Isabella of Spain was married at six.

            Isabella of Valois was married at six

            Bianca of Savoy was married aged 13, and aged 14 when she gave birth to her first child

            Caterina Sforza was married aged 9

            Do these get your condemnation as well? How about the heads of the Christian church in Rome that had child mistresses, wives and lovers? Are you on a mission to point out their contribution to the corruption of Christianity?

            Or is hypocrisy OK with you?

          • Neil Saunders

            Yes, they do get my condemnation as well. Why wouldn’t they?

            By the way, I’m an atheist.

          • Niels Henriksen

            Did you ever hear the word “symbolically”? 😉

            These were NOT consumated marriages at that early age –
            they served some political purpose ( barbaric, yes! ), so
            you can’t really compare in your more and more desperate culture relativistic attempts. Anyway we have long since left
            such midieval cultural practices – the Muslims have NOT!

            People like those leaders you mention are being punished for their crimes these days – didn’t you hear about that? 😉

            But nice try though ;o)

          • Guest

            People like those you mention are being punished for their
            crimes these days – didn’t you hear about that? 😉

          • Sarka

            True, but this practice of child marriage was concentrated among royals and aristos…for obvious reasons (politics was all on a family dynastic basis, and the property and power stakes were huge).

            Even though marriage ages were young by modern standards, child marriage among the population at large, e,g, in England, was not the norm in medieval or early modern In England, what the medieval historian Alan MacFarlane has defined as quite early “English individualism”, militated against it….artisans and even peasants did not marry until they could support a separate household….Their childhood sweethearts may have been younger than the men, but marriage was often relatively late – child brides were economic and health risks. Later marriage was also a form of birth control. Englishmen on the make often favoured a somewhat older bride (e,g, young widow – with some money!)

            The church not