Features

Why I’ve finally given up on the left

Left-wing thought has shifted towards movements it would once have denounced as racist, imperialist and fascistic. It is insupportable

19 September 2015

8:00 AM

19 September 2015

8:00 AM

‘Tory, Tory, Tory. You’re a Tory.’ The level of hatred directed by the Corbyn left at Labour people who have fought Tories all their lives is as menacing as it is ridiculous. If you are a woman, you face misogyny. Kate Godfrey, the centrist Labour candidate in Stafford, told the Times she had received death threats and pornographic hate mail after challenging her local left. If you are a man, you are condemned in language not heard since the fall of Marxist Leninism. ‘This pathetic small-minded jealousy of the anti-democratic bourgeois shows them up for the reactionary neocons they really are,’ a Guardian commenter told its columnist Rafael Behr after he had criticised Corbyn.

Not that they are careful about anything, or that they will take advice from me, but the left should be careful of what it wishes for. Its accusations won’t seem ridiculous soon. The one prophesy I can make with certainty amid today’s chaos is that many on the left will head for the right. When they arrive, they will be greeted with bogus explanations for their ‘betrayal’.

Conservatives will talk as if there is a right-wing gene which, like male-pattern baldness, manifests itself with age. The US leftist-turned-neocon Irving Kristol set the pattern for the pattern-baldness theory of politics when he opined that a conservative is a liberal who has been ‘mugged by reality’. He did not understand that the effects of reality’s many muggings are never predictable, or that facts of life are not always, as Margaret Thatcher claimed, conservative. If they were, we would still have feudalism.

The standard explanation from left-wingers is equally self-serving. Turncoats are like prostitutes, they say, who sell their virtue for money. They are pure; those who disagree with them are corrupt; and that is all there is to it.

Owen Jones, who seems to have abandoned journalism to become Jeremy Corbyn’s PR man, offers an equally thoughtless argument. ‘Swimming against a strong tide is exhausting,’ he sighed recently. Leftists who stray from virtue are defeated dissidents, who bend under the pressure to conform.

It won’t wash, particularly as Jones cannot break with the pressures that enforce conformity in his left-wing world and accept the real reason why many leave the left. It ought to be obvious. The left is why they leave the left. Never more so than today.

In the past, people would head to the exits saying, ‘Better the centre right than the far left.’ Now they can say ‘better the centre right than the far right’. The shift of left-wing thought towards movements it would once have denounced as racist, imperialist and fascistic has been building for years. I come from a left-wing family, marched against Margaret Thatcher and was one of the first journalists to denounce New Labour’s embrace of corporate capitalism — and I don’t regret any of it. But slowly, too slowly I am ashamed to say, I began to notice that left-wing politics had turned rancid.

In 2007 I tried to make amends, and published What’s Left. If they were true to their professed principles, my book argued, modern leftists would search out secular forces in the Muslim world — Iranian and Arab feminists, say, Kurdish socialists or Muslim liberals struggling against reactionary clerics here in Britain — and embrace them as comrades. Instead, they preferred to excuse half the anti-western theocrats and dictators on the planet. As, in their quiet way, did many in the liberal mainstream. Throughout that period, I never heard the BBC demanding of ‘progressives’ how they could call themselves left-wing when they had not a word of comfort for the Iraqi and Afghan liberals al-Qaeda was slaughtering.

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The triumph of Jeremy Corbyn has led to What’s Left sales picking up, and readers acclaiming my alleged prescience. Grateful though I am, I cannot accept the compliment. I never imagined that left-wing politics would get as bad as they have become. I assumed that when the criminally irresponsible Blair flew off in his Learjet, the better angels of the left’s nature would re-assert themselves.

What a fool I was.

Jeremy Corbyn did not become Labour leader because his friends in the Socialist Workers party organised a Leninist coup. Nor did the £3 click-activist day-trippers hand him victory. He won with the hearty and freely given support of ‘decent’ Labour members.

And yes, thank you, I know all about the feebleness of Corbyn’s opponents. But the fact remains that the Labour party has just endorsed an apologist for Putin’s imperial aggression; a man who did not just appear on the propaganda channel of Russia, which invades its neighbours and persecutes gays, but also of Iran, whose hangmen actually execute gays. Labour’s new leader sees a moral equivalence between 9/11 and the assassination of bin Laden, and associates with every variety of women-hating, queer-bashing, Jew-baiting jihadi, holocaust denier and 9/11 truther. His supporters know it, but they don’t care.

They don’t put it like that, naturally. Their first response is to cry ‘smear’. When I show that it is nothing of the sort, they say that he was ‘engaging in dialogue’, even though Corbyn only ever has a ‘dialogue’ with one side and his ‘engagement’ never involves anything so principled as robust criticism.

A few on the British left are beginning to realise what they have done. Feminists were the first to stir from their slumber. They were outraged this week when Corbyn gave all his top jobs to men. I have every sympathy. But really, what did they expect from a man who never challenged the oppression of women in Iran when he was a guest on the state propaganda channel? You cannot promote equality at home while defending subjugation abroad and it was naive to imagine that Corbyn would try.

The women’s issue nicely illustrates the damage he can do, even if he never becomes prime minister. When Labour shows by its actions that it doesn’t believe in women’s equality, the pressure on other institutions diminishes. Secularists and liberal Muslims will feel a different kind of prejudice. They will no longer get a hearing for their campaigns against forced marriage and sharia law from a Labour party that counts the Muslim Brotherhood among his allies.

The position of the Jews is grimmer still. To be blunt, the new leader of the opposition is ‘friends’ with men who want them dead. One Jewish Labour supporter told me, ‘I feel like a gay man in the Tory party just after they’ve passed Section 28.’ Another described his position as ‘incredibly exposed’. He had ‘come to understand in the last few weeks, quite how shallow the attachment of the left is to principles which I thought defined it.’

And yes, thank you again, I know at this point I am meant to say that Corbyn isn’t an anti-Semite. Maybe he isn’t, but some of his best friends are, and the record shows that out of cynicism or conviction he will engage in the left’s version of ‘dog-whistle’ race politics.

I am middle-class and won’t suffer under the coming decade of majority Tory rule. Millions need a centre-left alternative, but I cannot see them being attracted by the revival of lumpen leftism either. Unlike their Scottish and French counterparts, the English intelligentsia has always had a problem with patriotism. Whenever this trend has manifested itself, voters have turned away, reasoning that politicians who appear to hate England are likely to have little time for the English.

By electing Corbyn, Labour has chosen a man who fits every cliché the right has used to mobilise working-class conservatism. In the 1790s, George Canning described the typical English supporter of the French Revolution ‘as a friend of every country but his own’. Today’s Tories can, with justice, say the same about Corbyn. George Orwell wrote of the ‘English intellectual [who] would feel more ashamed of standing to attention during “God Save the King” than of stealing from a poor box’. That came to mind on Tuesday when Corbyn declined to sing ‘God Save the Queen’ at the Battle of Britain remembrance service.

I opened What’s Left with a quote by Norman Cohn, from Warrant for Genocide, his history of how the conspiracy theories that ended in fascism began in the dark, neglected corners of 19th-century Europe:

It is a great mistake to suppose that the only writers who matter are those whom the educated in their saner moments can take seriously. There exists a subterranean world where pathological fantasies disguised as ideas are churned out by crooks and half-educated fanatics for the benefit of the ignorant and superstitious. There are times when this underworld emerges from the depths and suddenly fascinates, captures and dominates multitudes of usually sane and responsible people.

In the years since What’s Left was published, I have argued that the likes of Corbyn do not represent the true left; that there are other worthier traditions opposed to oppression whether the oppressors are pro-western or anti-western. I can’t be bothered any more. Cries of ‘I’m the real left!’, ‘No I’m the real left!’ are always silly. And in any case, there is no doubt which ‘real left’ has won.

The half-educated fanatics are in control now. I do not see how in conscience I can stay with their movement or vote for their party. I am not going to pretend the next time I meet Owen Jones or those Labour politicians who serve in Corbyn’s shadow cabinet that we are still members of the same happy family. There are differences that cannot and should not be smoothed over.

I realise now what I should have known years ago. The causes I most care about — secularism, freedom of speech, universal human rights — are not their causes. Whatever they pretend, when the crunch comes, they will always put sectarian unity first, and find reasons to be elsewhere.

So, for what it is worth, this is my resignation letter from the left. I have no idea who I should send it to or if there are forms to fill in. But I do know this: like so many before me, I can claim constructive dismissal.

Nick Cohen’s books include Pretty Straight Guys, What’s Left? and You Can’t Read This Book. He is a columnist for the Observer and blogs at spectator.co.uk/nickcohen.

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Show comments
  • James Salvatore

    Snooze… really Nick. It’s obvious – this is the unadorned Guardian left wing, not what you think the left ought to be.

    • peterwise

      Nick seems to be most obsessed by Corbyn& Co’s opposition to the policies of the Israeli government and his willingness to speak to all the parties in the bitter contest for the land and resources of the Occupied Territories. Corbyn’s rejection of New Labour’s Foreign policy is probably the only part of his manifesto that resonates across the political spectrum. Come to think of it, stealing folks homes and private property is hardly in keeping with the values of our property-owning liberal democracy (or conservative values, in particular!) The Irony of commencing his article by decrying ‘name-calling’, and then labelling Corbyn (without a shred of evidence) an “anti-Semite”, seems lost on poor Nick.

  • Tellytubby

    Excellent article but I can’t help but feel you’re rather preaching to the converted here. This would be much better served in the New Statesman or the Guardian where a few souls might yet be saved.

    • Mc

      Few souls? Vanishingly few.

    • Sue Smith

      As the song goes, “…so they call me a Cockeyed Optimist, immature and incurably green”.

    • Patricia

      Can”t imaging the Guardian or NS printing this article. The left are too intolerant

      • Simon Jenkins

        Nice back-slapping, but do you really imagine the Spectator would print an article titled ‘Why I’ve left the Tories and joined Labour’ either?

        • Dominic Stockford

          They may well do – they print enough stuff from the left already.

        • Lamia

          If it was by one of their usual columnists, yes.

        • Patricia

          Yes, it is within the realms of likelihood. I find Speccie writers more accepting than the Grauny or NS.

      • Ed O’Meara

        I disagree. The Guardian always give Gideon a platform. They’ve printed their fair share of ‘Corbyn steals sandwiches’ fun too.

  • Mc

    “Why I’ve finally given up on the left”

    Yes, it takes some people a lifetime to figure out the bleeding obvious. And some never figure it out at all

    • Sue Smith

      Which is a shocking indictment of their, um, intelligence.

      • Dan O’Connor

        Or their background

        • Sue Smith

          Today I was out with my music appreciation group, which I lecture on classical music a few times a year. It’s only the 2nd time this year I’ve been because of living in Europe. Anyway, we’ve just had a change of PM here in Australia. Sitting having coffee, 3 of them (in our table of 4) were mouthing off about the Conservatives – being rich, arrogant, out of touch and saying appalling things about the outgoing and new PMs. I sat there and one woman said, “I hope we haven’t offended” (they don’t care at all, merely wanting to suss out my own politics). I answered coldly, “I made it a point never to publicly declare my politics or discuss this”. Then I left.

          Why do people automatically assume others vote Labor? This is something Conservatives never do. I don’t and never have. The result of today is that I’ll avoid these people because I do not like their politics.

          • CalUKGR

            “… I sat there silently and one person said, “I hope we haven’t offended” (they don’t care at all, but were merely wanting to suss out my own politics to see if I was OK to join ‘the club’).”

            Nicely put – I’m sure many of us have experienced very similar scenarios. When the progressive left claims to want a ‘debate’ or a ‘conversation’ about something or other, one knows now – almost instinctively – that a ‘debate’ or ‘conversation’ is the last thing on their mind. What they mean to say is that they really want you to agree with them or shut up and go away. You Nazi.

            This is how ‘democracy’ works with the far left. You’re either ‘with us or against us’.

          • Sue Smith

            I wouldn’t say the “far left” but the Left in general. Otherwise, thanks for the comments.

          • Oswaldo Mesias Villacres

            Good point

          • GraveDave

            What a boring, monochromatic and envious life many losers have!!

            his is how ‘democracy’ works with the far left. You’re either ‘with us or against us’.

            Now look Dan, you’ve started your own smug Tory bas*ards, backslapping party.

          • Mark Neil

            “What they mean to say is that they really want you to agree with them or shut up and go away. You Nazi.”

            What they really want is to lecture you publicly, and for you to accept their chastisement and renounce your heathen ways. It really is a religion.

          • Jaria1

            Had a laugh reading the rabid left wingers on the Huffington post complaining of all the hurtful things right wingers are saying about Corbyn and co.
            Something of course they would never think of doing

          • Greg

            Bill Buckley said it best: “Left-wingers always state they want to hear other points of view, and then are shocked to find out that there actually ARE other points of view.”

          • Sue Smith

            LOL. And so true!! They’d all be thinking, “what would my tutor think about this?”

          • Simon Jenkins

            ‘(they don’t care at all, but were merely wanting to suss out my own politics to see if I was OK to join ‘the club’)’

            I’m so sorry to hear about your crippling paranoia and persecution complex.

          • Sue Smith

            It’s such a lefty thing to do: try and find out who the enemy is!!

          • Simon Jenkins

            See, this is exactly what I mean. No-one thinks you’re an ‘enemy’. Please, please get some help.

          • Sue Smith

            LOL

          • Sue Smith

            Spoken like a true Bolshevik. On second thoughts, it’s probably just a projection of yours.

          • RedLT

            It’s very simple really, when you want to end the status quo you have to talk politics. You are clearly happy with the status quo because it benefits you, which is your prerogative.

            However, your post ends with the kind offensive, one-eyed and cowardly attack that doesn’t reflect well on your character. You won’t discuss politics with people who disagree with you, but you’ll type away when you can smear people who can’t respond.

            “Envy” is always the cry of the right and it says more about you than you realise. Wanting a world where the benefits of society are shared more equitably is not envy, it is empathy. I don’t want to benefit from an unfair system, I want to do well in a system where we all have a chance of winning and where the winners look after the losers.

            It’s called community and it is something that the right often bemoans because it is dying, but takes no responsibility for killing (thank you Margaret & Ronald).

          • Damaris Tighe

            The only policy that is killing community today is immigration on a biblical scale of people many of whom will live a parallel existence – monopolising resources & dividing what was once a largely homogenous nation into little bantustans.

          • Sue Smith

            Absolutely. But don’t expect the loony left to get it. The laugh is that they actually want ‘a better society; a community”.

            Listen up; this is not the way to get it!!!

          • MikeF

            Some of them may genuinely ‘want’ such an outcome. What a lot of the others ‘want’ is to create a fractured society that gives them an opportunity to stifle democracy under the guise of ‘anti-racism’ etc. It is actually ‘smart’ in a malevolent sort of way.

          • PaD

            Peter Sutherland EU…now HE’S smart in a malevolent way

          • Karen Rooth

            An Australian lecturing us on the damage immigrants can cause to existing societies? Priceless! Do you do children’s parties?

          • Alibarbs

            “Karen Rooth Sue Smith • 4 hours ago
            An Australian lecturing us on the damage immigrants can cause to existing societies? Priceless! Do you do children’s parties?”

            Throwing assumptions at another person which result in you making sweeping borderline xenophobic generalisations about 23m people? Priceless!

          • Sue Smith

            Same old slogans and catchphrases from the Left. They solve no problems, just attempt to shut down discussion. Ignore people like them!!

          • UKSteve

            Maybe the sarcasm classroom was locked when (if?) you attended school?

          • vieuxceps2

            If she does do parties then you and the other lefty kids could benefit greatly by attending.

          • Grace Ironwood

            Australian immigrants have generally been priceless & all the different waves except one group have integrated and added great value as citizens to a successful multi-racial democracy.
            We are dismayed by how disastrous mass immigration has been for Britain and Europe.

            We tend to have lively polyglot children’s parties.

          • Grace Ironwood

            Um, where did the Australian settlers come from, Karen?
            Would The Other enjoy your undoubtedly racist colonialist children’s parties ?

          • John

            Living in community isn’t about being all the same; it’s about living with difference. It is about valuing the “other” people around you. It is a bout caring for other people rather than labelling them as “alien”. Communities are welcoming. Whilst you may be able to begin a club by rejecting refugees, it is no starting point for building a community.

          • WarriorPrincess111111

            I think you have missed the boat – no pun intended! There is a natural flow of people to and from all countries and always has been. There has never been an outcry against that!
            But there was a huge outcry in the 1950’s when thousands of immigrants were invited over to the UK. From which it has never recovered. It was from this period that street crime increased dramatically and many of our cities experienced organised crime on a scale as never before. It is not who people are that is the problem – we have our own population that is ever increasing in this ever land decreasing country – this tiny region cannot support the World’s population, not landwise, not foodwise, not moneywise, not serviceswise!
            Bring back Jesus – perhaps he can perform his miracles on a much grander scale!

          • Sue Smith

            Adolescent world view. But the new arrivals bring their own medieval religious views, Islamic terrorism and treat their women like 4th class citizens. It’s THEM you need to be talking to, sir. Don’t just shoot the easiest target – it simply alienates your fellow citizens and gives a get-out-of-jail-free card to people who don’t care at all about western culture, freedoms and free speech – preferring the “caliphate”.

            But, look, on another level I’m deeply impressed that your level of altruism and generosity extends to you willingly being prepared to stump up and pay more taxes and more for services to support thousands more people. Yeah, that’s as impressive as it is inevitable.

            Celebrate difference? Sheesh. Life is more complex than empty and meaningless lefty slogans. You’ll realize that once you grow up a little.

          • Damaris Tighe

            Living in community isn’t about ‘living with difference’. That’s just the propaganda you’ve been inculcated with, as Sue Smith has pointed out. The social capital of community, based on trust, depends on a sense of kinship & shared values. Liberal western communities have learned to live with a wide nexus of difference, eg, gays. The English have accepted the eccentric for a very long time. But the bond must always be common language, culture & ethics.

            The ‘other’ that you want to welcome come from communities which ironically are much more closed to the ‘other’ than ours. Gays, free women & often the religious ‘other’ are persecuted & excluded. How on earth can welcoming these people into our communities be anything other than a disaster? We already have the evidence – sharia zones, gay free zones, creeping halal, refusal to handle shoppers’ alchohol & pork. This exclusion of the ‘other’ isn’t coming from the natives.

          • John

            You clearly know nothing about the degree of diversity that exists in Islamic states. Consider for instance the role Christianity has played in Syria over the last 1400 years and then tell me how it is we are more open to the other. Or indeed how a country must have “common language, culture & ethics”. But you just need to look at the history of the UK to realize that we have never had a common language, culture and ethics. The problem is community has broken down to such a degree, largely I think because people stopped going to church, that many people in Britain feel isolated and thus scared of everybody else.

          • Damaris Tighe

            I’m very aware of the separate communities that exist within Islamic states. For example Syria – fractured along communal lines; Iraq – fractured along communal lines. Lebanon (50% Muslim) – fractured along communal lines. Afghanistan – fractured along ethnic/communal lines.Before these conflicts & in other states civil war was/is prevented by authoritarian regimes. In Egypt, Libya, Malaysia & Iran non-Muslims lead difficult lives. In Saudi Arabia they don’t lead lives at all.

            Historically minority communities in Islam were usually accorded inferior status (if they were lucky enough to be ‘people of the book’). If they were unlucky enough to be any other religion they were murdered or forced to convert. Islamic states are some of the worst examples of the success of diversity you could use – unless of course you’ve bought into the Islamic multi-confessional paradise meme.

            By contrast the peoples who make up the UK were until recently relatively homogenous, the bulk sharing the same dna, the same or similar religion, having the same mores & manners & speaking a dialect of a single language.

          • TheJustCity

            That’s well meant but naive. You can value other people in the personal sense, but you are under no obligation to value their culture if it is one which is doctrinally antithetical to modernity and the Western/free-world norms of freedom, democracy, and equality.

            This is why multiculturalism has, in fact, sown division in society. For the health of a society, it is of paramount importance to anatomise and celebrate what is shared in ethical and other values, rather than what is not.

          • John

            My impressions is that you don’t know many Muslims or you wouldn’t think their culture was doctrinally antithetical to modernity. Not that I think an uncritical response to modernity is likely to produce freedom, democracy and equality. Valuing the “other” tends in my experience to reveal what is shared on a much deeper level than starting and finishing with superficial similarities.

          • PaD

            check out Peter Sutherland EU fatcat..on homogeneity

          • Gergiev

            The population of the earth in Biblical times was miniscule compared to today. Immigration now is far beyond Biblical levels.

          • AJH1968

            I once
            asked a South African politician why so many wealthy individuals supported left wing parties in South Africa. He’s reply at the time was that they could afford
            to buy their ‘apartheid’ the lower classes could not, hence south Africans (white that is) tended to vote left if they were wealthy. Suburbs like Houghton were safe seats for liberal parties; a similar situation is developing in modern Britain with people who can afford to buy their ‘apartheid’.

          • Saul Till

            Really? That sounds more like you pulling an anecdote out of your past and extrapolating a law of politico-personal economics on its basis. The majority of the statistical research, neutrally collated and systematically analysed, suggests that the wealthier you are the more politically conservative you tend to be – see also the research on the damascene conversions labour voters go through when they win the lottery, most of them switching to become tory voters.

            Personally I understand Cohen’s dilemma. My utter disgust with the left has been building and building, exacerbated by the truly pathetic response to Islamists over the last decade and a half. The things that are being flagged up here, the concern with hypocritical ‘virtue-signalling’ instead of dealing with the complexity and cognitive dissonance that arises when people with brown and black faces throw homosexuals off tower blocks or hack atheist bloggers to death in the streets, the inability to talk about western values, which are at least partly liberal values for fuck’s sake, without sneering, the hostility to science, the unprincipled pacifism of far-left twunts like Corbyn, these are all things I see and am routinely infuriated by.

            And yet…even though I find so much of left-wing commentary either irritating or downright despicable(the response by many on the left to the Charlie Hebdo killings is the absolute lowpoint), there’s always a ‘twitch upon the thread’. My values are liberal values, just the ones Cohen mentions, and the fact that so many liberal-leftists don’t seem to give a shit about them doesn’t make me want to stop being a liberal. It just makes me think these people are very bad liberals.

          • vieuxceps2

            Your stats on lottery -winners seem a little wishful.Source?

          • Grace Ironwood

            You sir are a contemporary conservative: you want to conserve the best values of a free humanist society. Sadly, conservative-classical liberals have been left alone with this project by the left some time ago.

          • an immigrant

            So you say immigrants are good only if they fill the gap in skilled labor and benefit your country? Aren’t you forgetting that it were Britishers who went to other territories first, colonised and plundered them and enriched your great nation with the loots of colonies. Now they are all following you home for their fair share.

          • mrs1234

            ‘Britishers’ were not the first to go to others territories. Their have been empires since the beginning of time. Amongst them Greek, Roman and Byzantine Empire, the Persian Empire, Fatimid Caliphate, Ottoman Empire, Mughal Empire etc…

          • Xchris

            Do that makes it OK then?

          • mrs1234

            Is that what you think I am saying? I was responding to a mistaken statement. ” that it were Britishers who went to other territories first” Clearly, historically there has been an impulse in mankind to conquer other people. “Britishers” were not the first and sadly, not the last.

          • jackcade

            Yes, because unlike every other empire the British Empire was based of free trade – and free trade is wonderful!

          • Sue Smith

            Not if you live in Australia and vote for the Labor Party. Our Liberal Coalition government has just stitched up a momentous free trade agreement with China and the union-dominated Labor party won’t allow it through the Senate because of their xenophobic, racist group-think.

            One of the great pleasures in life is when you can use the language of the Left against the Left itself. Joy.

          • Icon2100

            Yes free trade in opium I think was one of those free trades that the British Empire enabled through as Mao might say, the barrel of a gun.

          • jackcade

            Free trade in everything except men. If only we had free trade – including free trade of opium – what a wonderful blessing it would be for all mankind.

          • Xchris

            No such thing.

          • jackcade

            Er…no. The Britishers did no such thing. The Britishers bestowed FREEDOM AND PROSPERITY to this entire planet and you should bow your head in gratitude.

            https://www.aynrand.org/novels/capitalism-the-unknown-ideal

          • Sue Smith

            Grace has made all the right moves. I agree in principle with what she has said.

          • Sue Smith

            “End the status quo”. Funny. It’s the people who earn money who are paying for all you whiners!! Why don’t you use your own money instead of bemoaning the fact that others actually make money?

            Nothing is going to change for you as you are a perpetual victim with absolutely no sense of self-awareness.

            Next!!

          • RedLT

            The irony of your reply is actually quite staggering. “No sense of self-awareness” you say, while careering into a far-right rant about someone you know nothing about. Brilliant!

            I’m a higher-rate taxpayer and my family have been knighted and held held a hereditary title for generations, so I’m afraid you’re a little wide of the mark with your attempted character reference.

            The whole point of ending the status quo is that actually the people with all the money actually don’t pay for “all us whiners”, that burden is disproportionately paid for by working class and middle class people.

            What makes it worse is that since the 1980’s the trickle down theory has actually massively shrunk the income of working an middle class families and creted a tiny elite of people who suck money out of the real economy.

          • Sue Smith

            You’re talking a lorry load of shyte and you know it!!

            “Trickle down theory”. Bollocks. It’s sheer envy. The language of the left,…”rich,….avoid tax…..arrogant…..unfair…..Eton……snobs…….millionaires”

            On and on and on its goes. But doesn’t stop the paw coming out.

          • RedLT

            Well, aren’t you just the little charmer?

            Sue, you really need some help. You’re so paranoid and angry. Your apparent lack of any knowledge of the subject and inability to engage in a discussion without resorting to bilious playground name-calling, makes me wonder if this is some kind of surreal cry for help.

          • Sue Smith

            Stop with the projections already!! Yes, that’s a new word for the left which I should have put in my previous list….projection.

          • Andrew Czernicki

            You’re a nutter. It’s fun to read. Hope you never hold any power over any other beings. You’re too much of a berk to handle it.

          • RedLT

            Ooh, another valuable contribution. Perhaps you might want to try the cbeebies website for some exchanges you can really understand.

          • Andrew Czernicki

            No, they’re more to your level. I understand you and your loathsome ilk just fine. And you shall be defeated in my lifetime. You communists will get into the dustbin of history, and it will be us capitalists that put you there, solidly, never to emerge again.

          • RedLT

            *sigh* Is there nothing you can’t fail to understand or reduce to binary good/bad.

            *Takes deep breath* This may be hard for you to understand but I’m a capitalist! Shock, horror.

            I just happen to think that ‘the market’ should not be the ultimate arbiter of people’s lives when we have the ability to make it work for society.

            Let me know if you need any of those words explained.

          • Andrew Czernicki

            Sure. What “capitalist” mean to you?

          • Doh

            “It’s called community and it is something that the right often bemoans because it is dying, but takes no responsibility for killing (thank you Margaret & Ronald).”

            You’re a bullshitter, mate. You can’t even make up your mind about you’re pretending to be.

          • RedLT

            And you’re a troll. This is the third comment of yours that’s just name calling. You clearly have nothing to add to a discussion. Comment at will I’ll be ignoring your petty crap.

          • Stuart M.

            Are you Polish, or did you steal your surname from an optician’s card?

          • Andrew Czernicki

            I was given this surname. I don’t steal.

          • GraveDave

            Wow, what happened there? ‘Did some hit a nerve’?

          • johnschappert

            You make a lot of assertions that cannot be verified. For all we know, you could be living under a bridge. We care little for your present situation.

            The burden of taxation is overwhelmingly borne by the so-called “rich”. Please do some elementary research on this subject.

            “Trickle down” isn’t a thing, and never has been. If you actually knew what you were talking about, you would realize you are attacking the purest definition of a straw man.

            The irony inherent in all this is that as the power of the state has grown, taxes have increased and regulations have become ever more fine means of splicing hairs and determining the appropriate count of angels dancing on pins, inequality has INCREASED. And the rate of increase in inequality is increasing. Such a conundrum!

          • RedLT

            If you look at the comment about my income and family in context it was in direct response to being called a money-grabbing freeloader by one of your more vitriolic sisters.

            If you could just hop down off you’re smug little cloud for a second, I’m not denying that rich people pay more tax than others. I would reply to that by saying that that is a good thing. This may be hard to hear but taxes enable us to provide an equitable society. Before a fair tax system there was no public health or state schooling and the average age at which people died was significantly lower than today.

            However, my main point is not that we need to take money from the rich, it is that the economy is rigged in their favour and not or creating enough skilled jobs or preparing people for the changing needs of modern business.

            As a society we need to move away from the idea that shareholder value is the only thing that matters to one where that is one part of the equation. If you have more skilled people doing high quality jobs they pay more tax and everything becomes more equitable.

            P.S. From someone who told me to do some research you sure dropped a ball with your coments about trickle down theory. It is one of the most well known economic theories of the neo-conservatives fro Thatcher/Raegan onwards. The fact you may choose to distance youself from it doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist. Pop it into google and you’ll find a whole world of information.

          • WarriorPrincess111111

            I take it that as you have inherited a title, that you are not one of those parliamentary money grabbing freeloaders.
            The more wealthy people that I cannot abide are those who have made their money by dishonestly crippling poor people! These people are greedy, despicable and very obnoxious!
            I would actually like to see the honest wealthy people pay less taxes. By creating a tax haven in the UK, we are inviting more wealthy people who will then use their money to some extent within the UK. This money will flow through the economy and help it to grow.
            I would prefer investments in the UK to come from UK based people with their interests in this country, not invisible overseas conglomerates.

          • johnschappert

            Paragraph 1: Still don’t care.

            Paragraph 2: Read your paragraph 3 from your post I responded to. It clearly says ” …actually the people with all the money actually don’t pay for “all us whiners”, that burden is disproportionately paid for by working class and middle class people.” Either the “working class” [whatever that is] and the middle class disproportionately bear the burden of taxation, or they don’t. Which way would you have it?

            Paragraph 3: Who are the “rich”? How come you to say the “economy” [whatever that is] is rigged in “their favour”? How do you define rich, how would you say the “economy” is “rigged”, and how is that all of these “rich”, however “they” are defined, are equally beneficiaries of this alleged rigging? I can agree that guys like Lloyd Blankfein, George Soros, or Warren Buffet probably do benefit from a game rigged in their favour, but does Joe Millwright millionaire down the street enjoy some ill-defined privilege? Why is the onus on any person but oneself to prepare oneself for the world in which we live? I don’t know how you will live and I don’t know the future: how can I possibly prepare you for that?

            Paragraph 4: What is a “high quality job” and why should we want anyone to be paying more tax? I am all for people being skilled, but I have no idea what skills are valuable – do you? You presume to, but that presumption is an elementary fallacy. You have no greater conception of the future than I do, and if you did, you would be richer than Warren Buffet. The miracle of pricing is in its ability to inform: the less we dilute the informational value of pricing and the information exchange which is a market, the better more timely information we can have about what works best.

            Paragraph 5: Chalk that up to another “well known” thing that is in fact an absolute fiction. “Trickle down” is a straw man, and if you were in any way a serious person you would do your own research to determine that. You can google a whole world of information on God, the Bible, how vaccines cause autism, how Jews own the media, and how 9/11 was an inside job: guess what? It’s all BS, just as is your precious trickle down straw man. Which, by the way, as is the case with any straw man, nobody has raised but you.

          • RedLT

            There is literally no point continuing this discussion with you John. You’re asking questions like ‘what is the economy’ and ‘who are the rich’ like these are profound questions, when they’re just pretentious college debating society nonsense to which anyone with a scrap of intelligence already know the answers.

            I’ve already answered why we should pay taxes. You may not think those are valid reasons but pretending they’re not there in black and white is not answering the challenge.

            And finally, did you just learn about ‘straw man arguments’ at college? Well done you for adding another idiom to your writing. Unfortunately for you calling something a straw man argument does not make it so. Along with financial deregulation, trickle down theory is one of the underpinning philosophies of Conservative and neoconservative philosophy. There are economic models aplenty and the arguments given for an economy structured to benefit the super-wealthy (or ‘wealth creators’ as they are sometimes called, without a hint of irony) are all based on this – debunked – theory. Your ignorance of this does not make it somehow disappear, it just demonstrates your lack of knowledge of a subject you are so happy to shout your mouth off about.

            I shall not be wasting any more time on this thread John. Have a lovely day in the library studying for your exams.

          • johnschappert

            Wow, for a second there I thought you might have brought facts or an argument to the table, but I can see now that there’s no argument because this is already stuff “everybody knows”; and besides, I’m just fresh out of my first year of university right? Actually, I think they just talked about ad hominems in my first year philosophy class yesterday…

            I’m sorry for attempting to start a debate by striving for clear positions (rather than demagogic boilerplates about the “rich” and things “everybody knows”), and striving to eliminate straw men from a discussion that is actually very important. For your edification, “trickle down” is indeed a straw man, a term coined by some elements of the left to deliberately mischaracterise so-called “supply-side economics” [which, for the record, I am not a supporter of].

            If you’d rather just rant and not see your positions debated, that’s fine too, but let’s not play pretend.

          • Johnathan Swift Jr.

            You clearly don’t understand the most elemental facts of taxation, despite your claims to hereditary social status. Good luck with that. Who cares if some blight’s grandfather or great-grandfather was knighted, does that make anything you write more correct?

            In most of the developed nations, the wealthy pay a much higher proportion of the overall tax burden – whether it is the top 1%, 5% or 10% – then their representation in the population. This is especially true in the United States, where people are always told that the poor – who pay a tiny percentage of the tax burden – are having the money they don’t have transferred to the rich. And, in the U.S. and U.K. increasingly the bottom half of the income scale is receiving transfer payments, which are often not even part of many income calculations. In the states transfers often leap people who have never worked above honest workers, taking someone with no legal income and giving them a $40,000 – $60,000 life style, above what someone who makes a middle income on their own makes, someone who isn’t attached to the government teat.

            I don’t really care a lot what the percentage is that I am paying of I make 25,000 pounds a year in the U.K. if that is offset by all sorts of subsidies do I? That has to be part of any remotely honest discussion. I read all the time about immigrants in the U.K. with lavish benefits, subsidized housing in posh neighborhoods, transfer payments that make them upper middle class. Well, all that money is not being generated by the poor, it is being confiscated from the upper classes and transferred to people who often have no intention of holding a job.

            This is from the scholarly paper titled “The progressivity of UK taxes and transfers” :

            “However, the past 30 years has seen an increasing proportion of the population of total
            households becoming overall net recipients of the state. This has been particularly marked in the
            past ten years: in 2010/11, 53.4 per cent of total households received more in benefits than they
            paid in taxes – compared to 43.1 per cent in 1979 and 43.8 per cent in 2000/01. Around three
            million more households were net recipients of the state in 2010/11 than just ten years earlier.” This is probably even more the case now, five years on.

            Now, clearly if more than half of the nation, the U.K. is receiving transfer payments, then someone who is paying more in taxes than the recipients is paying for it, right? There may be some here whose own money may be transferred back to them of course, but then that should only show the folly of big government in the first place, as they would be better off just buying what they need in the first place without the states hand in their wallet.

          • RedLT

            If you look at the comment about my income and family in context it was in direct response to being called a money-grabbing freeloader by one of your more vitriolic sisters.

            With the greatest of respect that report was from the Centre for Policy Studies, a free market, Conservative inclined think tank co-founded by Margaret Thatcher (amongst other people). I’d like to see those figures from somewhere a little more independent before commenting directly on them.

            However, I will comment on the overarching point which is that the figures are not talking about just cash handouts. It also takes into account people whose children attend state schools, use NHS hospitals etc. Taxes are also generated from import/export, VAT, corporation tax etc so it is therefore far more complex than you would paint it and not just about income as you seem to think.

            You could also ask yourself a question: why is there an ever greater need for the rich to pay more tax. Is it because:

            A) people are just lazier

            B) the global economy is changing and we don’t train people for the new skilled professions (creative, tech etc.) that are beginning to dominate the better paid jobs.

            C) the current economic model disproportionately favours rich people while penalizing others.

            If you answered B and C then you’re not a simpleton.

            Do I think rich people are bad and poor people are good? Of course not. Life isn’t that simple. Do I think we need to make some significant changes in our society so that people from the working and middle classes have more opportunity to contribute to and benefit from the economy? Yes, of course. Because its only going one way at the moment and blaming poor people for losing a rigged game is stupid.

          • Andrew Czernicki

            I answered A. I’m not a simpleton. You, as a leftist, are by definition the lowest form of simpleton. Enjoy that.

          • an immigrant

            Indeed, your reply is an illustration of your intellect.

          • Andrew Czernicki

            Another with nothing to say. Where did you immigrate from, Mars?

          • RedLT

            Well done you. Nothing to add to the discussion, just a bit of petty mud slinging at someone who sees things differently to you. Mummy must be very proud.

          • Andrew Czernicki

            She is. I’m not a leftist. Other things too, but especially that.

          • Saul Till

            At least you tried. You might as well be talking to a rabid Corbynite.

          • Johnathan Swift Jr.

            The left/right divide will never be solved, because there are in the end two competing philosophies that are, in the end impossible to reconcile. I will never feel that I have the right to tell anyone that I expect a share of their income.

            There are no new ideas, what all of us are arguing about here or anywhere lease are ideas that were born in the French Enlightenment or the British/American Enlightenment and which were further developed in the 19th century.

            My side takes our ideas from Locke, Burke, Hume, Smith, Montesquieu, Madison, Hamilton,Jefferson, Adams and the other American founders. The other is much more influenced by Voltaire, Rousseau and other later thinkers, Marx and Engels among them. The American and the French Revolution beautifully contrast the competing, ideals and outcomes. One that was interested in freedom, in liberty, in providing opportunity, though with the original sin of African slavery, the other, liberty, brotherhood and equality of outcome. Equality of outcome.

            One revolt, which was never very popularly opposed in Britain ended reasonably peacefully, the other, like so many other revolutions from the left, ended in chaos, bloodshed and then of course, a popular dictatorship because people desire order, not chaos. Because each revolt seems to become a test of idealogical purity and descend into the rule of men, not the rule of law. In the end though, that dictatorship left the home country in tatters and millions dead from the gates of Moscow to the gates of Brussels. It seems so often that the mobs, the chanting, marching mobs, are always on the left. Always seeking an overreaction from the authorities – from Bloody Sunday in St. Petersburg in 1905 – to Ferguson, Missouri in 2014, so that a real revolt and more bloodshed will occur. The head on the pikes thing, is a leftist thing. You can keep your poissards.

            One side believes in trying to create nations that provide as much of an equal opportunity to succeed as possible. We, those who are conservatives or libertarians or some mix of the two, have what some call a “constrained vision” of mankind and what is politically possible and moral. We believe in original sin in the sense that because man is born flawed, neither he nor the states he lives in of is perfectible. That the best we can ever do is muddle though.

            We believe that trying to insure equality of outcome is a fool’s errand, because once you start fiddling, trying to equalize for peoples backgrounds, resources, intelligence and motivation, the evening up just provides more distortions than freedom ever could, so the fiddling never stops.

            That is why I have a hopping mad relive in the states who has never taken a thing from the government, who is in the lower middle class, seething at neighbors who have never worked, who have next to new cars, eat out all the time, live more than a middle class existence and have done nothing, nothing to deserve it. In the states many of them make $40-60,000 a year, without things like medical, education or infrastructure figured in, just in income, housing subsidies, food. And of course once you create a state based on envy, jealousy and resentment of what others have and earn and what a piece of it, you have a population that is seething with resentment. I read articles all the time in the U.K. media with people on the dole with lavish housing, who don’t work, asking for more, more, more. As if they have a right to steal someone’s else’ hard earned money with the help of the all-knowing beneficent state.

            Because the west, the U.K., the United States, France, had economic freedom, things like royalties, patents, corporations, fiducial instruments, the freedom to make money, which could then be reinvested, once the Industrial Revolution began it kept ahead of the rest of the world.

            It was the free nations of the west with all their capitalistic excesses that have made people’s lives better all over the world, even in the third world, where incomes are rising. Hundreds of millions of poor people in third world nations are alive today because of medical and scientific advances pioneered by giants like Dr. Lister, or Norman Borlaug or the men who conquered Yellow Fever or Small Pox or Malaria. All of these things took investment, that’s right, the dirty, filthy lucre that is the mother’s milk of virtually every worthwhile development, the idea that someone can actually benefit from their intelligence and hard work, which incentives the spread of the very western civilization that the left wants to tear down in common cause with the angry Mullahs and clitoris cutting monsters of fundamentalist Islam. On Yank college campuses, they worry about “microagressions,” while thousands of girls are kidnapped and sold into sex slavery from one end of the Ummah to the other. They worry about silly things while heads are chopped off, people burned alive and Muslims who cut their beard are slaughters and homosexuals are thrown off buildings. These are labour’s “friends,” right? People who hang homosexuals from cranes with mobs cheering. Perhaps the love of mobs is the commonality?

            Because millions of small investors and inventors could make money by inventing and then making improvements in everything from the steam engine to farm machinery to flush toilets and septic systems, hundreds of millions of people graduated from subsistence farming or urban lives of abject poverty 250 years ago to join the ranks of the lower middle class, the middle class and the wealthy and virtually everyone in the west gains assets over time, people can start out poor and join the middle class. Because of the market economy the left despises or feels a few expert selectmen should control, even the most lowly households have devices that keep them warm, cool or save labor, devices that even the wealthy could only dream of 100 years ago.

            If I am in the states I can go into a big box store and purchase an air conditioner that will cool an apartment for $99, as much as kids spend on sneakers. If I want to live on rice and beans and a basic diet, I could eat for $200 or $250 a month. When I was traveling in the states a few years ago, my bag was lost and I went to Wall Mart and equipped myself with a week’s worth of changes of clothes for $200, including a belt and underwear and undershirts. My ancestors had two pairs of pants, a few shirts, socks that grandma darned and a Sunday Suit and they lived happy, healthy lives.

            People who live on the dole today in the U.S. or U.K. are morbidly obese, have homes that are awash in clothes and massive refrigerators that overflow with food that taxpayers pay for. All that is only possible because there were reasonably free markets and reasonably free trade. If the hard left had its way, none of that would have happened. Everyone may possible equal, but mired in poverty, because it is human nature to want to succeed but also to profit for it. That is why the small percentage of private plots of land – 3% at one time if memory serves – in the Soviet Union grew something like 30% of the crops. That is why they had to murder millions to collectivize the farms.

            I believe in a flat tax. I believe everyone should contribute. I believe on principle of everything contributing.

            Why pray tell is wanting to keep what you earn “greedy” and someone putting their hand in your pocket to confiscate more of what you have earned because of an accident of birth or because you have worked bloody hard not “greedy?”

            The deck is not stacked against anyone who works hard. There is no government preventing anyone in the United States or the United Kingdom from getting ahead. Anyone who studies hard, keeps off of drink and drugs, doesn’t get pregnant or get someone pregnant at 16, stays in school and applies themselves can join the middle class and have a decent life. Anyone. It will of course be harder if your mum is a meth addict or your father is a fanatical red who is mad at the world, but no government, no massive, all-knowing, all-seeing beneficent state, on unconstrained vision of humanity and its possibilities, no delusional view that sees the world as you want it to be, will insure equality. The best we can do is to let free people make their own decisions and then accept the consequences when they turn out, well, not so well.

          • Simon Jenkins

            That is why I have a hopping mad relive in the states who has never taken a thing from the government

            You have a relative who never attended a state-funded school? That explains a lot. I assume they’ve also never driven on a taxpayer-funded road, had their rubbish collected or called 911 either?

          • Johnathan Swift Jr.

            They pay their taxes o foolish one, so yes, they paid for the road and infrastructure they use.

            Nothing the government provides in commonality is provided out of beneficence nor free, people pay a bloody lot of taxes for it, so your argument is asinine.

            And, I can assure you that when I went to a state school – which my relative did not – it wasn’t free. I paid cash on the barrel for my education.

            I had a client in one of the most expensive ares of the United States who paid $40,000 a year in housing taxes, which in his state are used for public education, yet all throe of his children went to private schools from kindergarden to university, The rich end up paying much more than their so called “fair share” when in comes to infrastructure, more in road taxes because they drive a more expensive car, though they drive on the same road as the person with the 1966 VW, more in housing taxes, which often pay for education, though they can’t have any more children than others, same gestation time for rich and poor.

            My relative by the way went to private school and by the way paid taxes so that others could go to public school. In the states those who opt for a better private education still have to pay taxes for public schools, so they end up paying for a benefit they don’t use.

          • Simon Jenkins

            ‘And of course once you create a state based on envy, jealousy and resentment of what others have and earn and what a piece of it, you have a population that is seething with resentment.’

            It sounds like you and your relative are the ones seething with resentment.

          • Johnathan Swift Jr.

            Yes, it seems that the left and right are both angry. The left because the rush to the utopian dystopia of multicultural hell is just not occurring fast enough with the Tories in charge and the right because they see what was a nice country being destroyed.

            I always liked the English as my father did from 1943-1945. We never thought, “Boy, you know what would really fix England, a lot of socialistic policies and millions of angry immigrants who hate England and everything English. My father managed to get around a lot during and after the war, so I never had any illusions about the Soviet Union or Nazi Germany or Cuba. Growing up with Russians, Poles, Czechs and around a number of Holocaust survivors, I never had any illusions about the other systems of governance and persecution. I knew that the west was far, far, from perfect, but that it offered the best opportunity for the most people than anything in history.

            Then, as I got older and was able to experience the unpleasantness of DDR myself, the line was drawn even more sharply. So, yes, I am angry to see the west committing slow, steady economic, political and cultural suicide. I just have to figure some way to rescue the Adoration of the Mystic Lamb before the new overlords that the left is turning the world over to dynamite it, like they are every bit of civilization they get their hands on.

          • Jon Stone

            “… and the right because they see what was a nice country being destroyed.”

            If you have even a shred of self-awareness, you really ought to examine your own paranoid anxieties a little more deeply than this.

          • Johnathan Swift Jr.

            I am sorry, but it is you who are hiding your head in the sand. If you hate your own county as labour’s new leader does, then all is well, but if you are on the other side of the divide, well, then all of the western European nations are going the wrong way.

            You simply cannot sustain a socialized nation with mass immigration, especially from people who do not share your language, values nor work ethic. The tail has to wag the dog at some point, the number of makers v.s takers is too small to sustain things. At a certain point as Thatcher said, you run out of other people’s money to confiscate to pay for it all.

            No country that is headed in the right direction can sustain a large minority – many of them on public support – who hates them, especially when Europeans have a low birth rate and the people on the dole who hate them have a high one. How can that work.

            And of course the pressure, both from immigrant communities and from the left is for immigrants to keep their own wonderful cultural values, not assimilate English, French, Dutch, Swedish, German or Spanish values.

            Netherlands asylum seekers attacked in shelters:
            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nk1PTZBqTBU
            (Dutch language, sorry)

            Twenty Terror Cells in little Belgium:
            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B741xrM-7os

            Sharia in Belgium:
            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UQjL31sdtzo

            Terror Across Europe:
            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PheG91Kpoes

            Sharia Patrols, London, Sweden:
            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ra45nX9JmW4

            Muslim Riots, Sweden:
            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JdXUmIoP768

            Rape Epidemic in Scandinavia:
            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xoiCYwoJKrE

            Sweden, 2015:
            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dlG75wb7lLw

            Muslim Sweden:
            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZGMOpb1ngvU

            Sorry, but you are the one completely lacking a shrewd of self-awareness. I presume you don’t even turn on the news, or manage to filter out what is going on in Europe or in the Middle East.

            There are millions of people who want to invade your countries and not assimilate, not fit in, as American immigrants used to do, but to take over and they make that very clear. Sharia patrols are all over the U.K., Belgium, the Netherlands, Sweden, intimidating everyone. That is not paranoia, but reality. How will any of them assimilate when the left doesn’t want them to? How to do acculturate someone who hates your culture and wants to wrap every woman in a sack?

            There is an epidemic of rapes across Europe, 1,400 in one English city. Are these girls and women just speed bumps, collateral damage on the way to a multicultural utopia? 1,400 female citizens raped, covered by by Labour members of parliament and the police. There are smaller but similar rings all over the U.K.

            In the Middle East there are thousands and thousands of innocent Christian girls who are sex slaves now. Do they deserve their fates? Thousands of insufficiently pious Muslims who are butchered for trimming a beard, watching soccer, not praying. People burned alive from Libya to Iraq and Syria. And these same people want your nations and are seeding the refugees with their terrorists.

            Did 3/11, 7/11 or 9/11 make no impact on you? 22,000 attacks worldwide since 9/11, 22,000. And of course, without billions and billions of dollars and robbing every European and American and Australian of many of their civil liberties, the attacks would be much more frequent, without hundreds of arrests of plotters and planners.

            I am well educated, well read, well traveled and follow the news in many different nations. I explained the left/right divide and while we have nothing, nothing in common, especially as the fanatical left has replaced the left of the 1930s and 1940s, so we will naturally see the world very differently, a Corbynite and myself.

            However, what you see as “paranoia” is reality. If it wasn’t then all these things that are happening across Europe, the wave of crime, the imposition of Sharia law on wide swaths of “democratic” countries would not be happening.

            So, if you live in some happy little enclave or have a nice sinecure somewhere, watch some of the videos above and educate yourself. Rotherham alone should have made any self-respecting woman – or anyone who cares about women – leave Labour forever.

          • Johnathan Swift Jr.

            And of course, on the way to making the U.K. an idyl-like, multicultural paradise, the rape rings have a few quant practices that even a few members of the left find a bit – just a bit on the, shall we say, distasteful side, raping, murdering and then cutting up their victims and feeding them to non-believers as Kababs (most rape rings are centered around fast food shops), like in the case Charlene Downs, who was raped, murdered, dismembered and cooked.

            http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1552482/Missing-girls-body-put-into-kebab.html

            Everything is going just great, continue on the present course, right? Not so easy if you are a human kabob. English lives matter, but not apparently to the left.

          • Johnathan Swift Jr.

            Two posts her with lots of lovely links to show who is the one lacking self or situational awareness, which of course is you and other members of the multi-culti, hide-your-head-in-sand-and-filter-out-reality utopians.

            Take a look at the million rapes in the UK article for starters, for an eye-opener and then all the videos for a reality chaser…

            Life in the U.K. is just peachy right? That is shy a Labour MP states that immigrant rape rings may have one million victims in the U.K. (Article below.) Thats a Labour MP, the party who covered up the rapes, not a right winger who is speaking about a million rapes.

            Nothing to see here Jon, right, move along, no one cares about the small matter of these speed bumps on the way to a leftist, multi-culti utopia. Should European girls just look upon rape fondly as part of the experience of growing up in “Cool Britannia? Hell, British girls are being raped as though the Red Army occupied it.

            “Rotherham’s Labour MP Sarah Champion describes it as a “national disaster” and is demanding a taskforce to fight the “horror”here could be up to a million victims of child sexual exploitation in the UK, it is feared.

            Rotherham’s Labour MP Sarah Champion describes it as a “national disaster” and is demanding a taskforce to fight the “horror.”

            In an exclusive interview with the Daily Mirror the shaken MP has told how she ‘nearly lost her mind’ after victims turned to her for help – unable to trust the police or local council.

            She is currently getting an average of 10 victims a week coming to her for help.

            Fighting back tears she told how she feared having a nervous breakdown worried about failing the “amazing women” and her horror after finding out a manual for grooming existed for paedophiles.

            The MP was speaking after the Government announced they were taking over Rotherham Council for a “fresh start” and sending five commissioners to run the troubled authority.”

            Is a 1,000,000 too many rapes? How many rapes are necessary for a multicultural paradise Jon? Are the women of Europe supposed to grin and bear it and think of how great things will be under Sharia, when they will be wrapped in a potato sack and not be raped?

            Another 400 rape victims here:
            http://news.sky.com/story/1437596/sex-gangs-may-have-abused-hundreds-of-girls

            (Multiculturalist Collateral Damage) Is 400 o.k. Jon?

            Pakistani Rapists Galore:
            http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/child-sex-abuse-gangs-could-5114029

            Database on Child Rape Rings in UK/Ireland:
            heukdatabase.com/uk-child-abusers-named-and-shamed/muslim-paedo-rings-in-the-uk-why

            “Rape Jihad:
            http://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/3846/britain-child-grooming

            Lots more below on the reality of Europe in 2015

          • Simon Jenkins

            ‘Nothing the government provides in commonality is provided out of beneficence nor free, people pay a bloody lot of taxes for it, so your argument is asinine.’

            Your own taxes did not pay for your education though, other people’s did. How does that square with your statement that you’d never tell anyone that you expect a share of their income when you’ve clearly benefited from it? You’d prefer a nation of people who can’t read and write?

          • Johnathan Swift Jr.

            My parent’s taxes were extracted by the state, so yes, my education was paid for. That’s what taxes are for. You can’t opt out of the taxation, so we all pay for our own education and that of our children. No one in my family has ever ridden for free. We are all forced to pay into the educational system, whether we use it or not. And as I point out, millions of people pay for private school and are taxed for public education at the same time, so lots of non-workers can take advance of the system. I put myself into college, my folks paid taxes so that I could attend K-8 and high school. No free rider, contributor.

            Philosophically, I cam against all state education. I feel it all should be paid for my those who use it. However, I can’t snap my fingers and make it happen, so we all have to use the system we are born into. Some of my relatives home schooled, to they used that workaround, but that was virtually unknown when I came up, since I am an old snot now.

          • Simon Jenkins

            You want children to pay for their own education? You’re a joke.

          • Johnathan Swift Jr.

            No please read, Parents, that word that I used repeatedly in the paragraphs above. The people who have and raise children. Parents. Yes, I actually feel that parents should pay for their children’s education. Amazing, because I guess you think the money comes from unicorn horns and fairy dust, but in the end, education costs money, lots and lots of it. Teachers have to be paid, books provided and schoolrooms created, heated and cooled and cleaned.

            So, because education costs money. I have the novel idea that parents, who after all decide to bring their little blighters into the world, should pay to feed, clothe, house and yes, educate their own precious offspring. In the end, we value what we pay for and if parents have to pay for their children, their expectations would be much higher, not only for said children, but for the teachers and institution as well.

            And of course if we have to pay for the children we choose to bring into the world – because when I man ejaculates into a woman and thus fertilizes her seed – he is doing do voluntarily and thus must be held responsible for his act. The more we subsidize stupid behavior the more we have of it.

            As far as university, people should either pay to put themselves through school, by working their way though, like I did, or through their parent’s graciousness or though loans as millions do.

            The more distance there is between who is paying for something and who receives the benefits, the less the person who receives the benefits appreciates it or takes it seriously.

            When I pay for my offspring at a university, you can bet they won’t be taking silly courses with no practical nor intellectual application.

          • Simon Jenkins

            So what happens to children without parents, or whose parents are unable or unwilling to pay?

          • Johnathan Swift Jr.

            Well, personally, I would attach the income of those who have children and refuse to pay for them, if not, off to jail, where they can work for a living like the rest of us.

            For orphans, we can have orphanages or adoptions. My friends in the states in Oregon have adopted three unwanted children. There is a tremendous waiting list for children to adopt.

            The issue is that the state keeps trying to reunite a “family” that consists of a crack or meth addled mum with six children from four different men. So, by the time they decide int their wisdom to terminate parental rights, the children are so old and traumatized that they are difficult to adopt out.

            Ideally, if the state was trimmed down to its most basic level, as the United States was prior to the Great War, most of the problems that are left over could be handled by private charity, which actually works much better. With a minimalist state, I have nothing against a small safety net for those who fall through the cracks.

            The problem is that the bigger a “safety net” grows, the more you manage to disable the able. In the states, the level of fraud in virtually every welfare and transfer program is staggering. Tens of billions a year in IRS refunds are sent to people who are dead or never existed in the first place. Millions collect disability payments with nothing wrong with them.

            My great-grandparents belonged to a religious community that took care of its own. If someone was disabled for a time or perpetually, they found something they could do or took care of them. They didn’t rely on the state or outsiders. This was how the United States used to function and they didn’t have thousands of people living on the streets of the major cities either.

            Thanks for the exchanges. I have to get back to something that compensates me, so that I can pay my taxes and put some meat on the table.

          • Simon Jenkins

            ‘I will never feel that I have the right to tell anyone that I expect a share of their income, but if they refuse to pay their taxes [which is basically what you’re suggesting] they have to go to prison.’

            …how about instead of creating the horrible dystopia you want to live in, we just keep things how they are now?

          • Johnathan Swift Jr.

            First Simon, a smaller government, a more responsible population where people freely associate, would not be a dystopia, but a vast improvement on the societies that we are living in now.

            We are not headed to utopia, but dystopia thanks to the increasingly left wing policies all of the western nations have adopted. The status quo was probably not so bad twenty years ago, but we are headed rapidly downhill in many ways.

            First of all, massive welfare states and mass immigration – especially from nations who by-and-large do not share western values, culture nor its once great work ethic – and a massive “everything is free – welfare state is incompatible and unsustainable. You have a seething mass of five million or more displace people chomping at the bit right now, waiting to get into Germany and the U.K.

            If things continue in the direction they are going now with Labour’s wonderful multicultural project – where you may terrorists and terrorist recruiters from the taxpayer pocket – you will have another mass of people who are unwilling or unable to ever get a job. Even if you hide your head in the sand, you have to realize that at some point, the tail is wagging the dog and the ratio of producers vs. recipients becomes too much for the nation to bear, hence cuts in your health care in the U.K.

            There just can’t be an unlimited number of takers vs. the makers and the drag on all the western nations – who are after all borrowing much of what they spend in many cases right? – becomes unsustainable and the quality of life devolves for all, but those who live in towering apartment blocks in the tony Knightsbridge or Kensington Gardens, where I used to stay when I was in the U.K.

            The United States at least successfully assimilated its refugees and immigrants, or at least it used to, though it too has become a “salad bowl,” of clitoris-cutting multi-cultis thanks to the quaint notion that all cultures are equal. The states no longer believes in a common culture for immigrants to aspire to, save mass consumerism. But in Europe, things are far worse, you have large swaths of the U.K. with de facto Sharia zones, same for the Netherlands, Sweden, Belgium and France. The mayor of Brussels was ordered to “convert or die.” In France, the Banlieues have millions of residents, vast blocks of people from Morocco, Algeria or Africa who are not at all assimilated into French culture, most of whom will never hold a job in their natural lives. That looks frigging dystopian to me from where I am sitting. Imagine, no prospect for anything meaningful for your entire life, just life on the dole.

            Crime, especially from the “community” of immigrants from the Ummah is out of control, especially in Sweden. When my family lived in Norway, rape was virtually unknown, but no longer and for years, every rape in Oslo has been committed by an immigrant. I think if I was a blonde haired Swedish lass, in Malmo, the rape capital of Europe, I would think I lived in a bit of a dystopia now.

            Even one of Blair’s ministers said that Labour had gone too far in its attempt to de-Anglicize the U.K. thanks to mass immigration. Do ‘ya think? Well, it turns out that all of the elite across Europe had the same idea, to use mass immigration – primarily from the Islamic lands – to destabilize their nations. Because the British elite hate the average Briton, the Danish elite spits on the average Dane, the Swedish elite thinks being blonde and Swedish is a vile thing and so, on, they all thought a mass of immigrants from people who they had nothing in common with was just the thing, right?

            So, the people who are so egalitarian created completely bifurcated societies, a tier of the poor Swedes who have to work hard to pay for millions of no-account immigrants who hate them by and large and the new permanent Islamic vacation class. Thanks for that. This looks pretty dystopian to me Simon. Each European nation now has a native born population (one who already had enough of their own work adverse and bath adverse takers) and a large, seething mass of unhappy immigrants who hate their new home and everything it has stood for.

            And, of course, this seething mass of entitled, often hateful immigrants has a lot of time on their hands, especially the cohort of young men. And what dose anyone with a spare synapse or two to rub together know about young men with nothing worthwhile to do? They usually have lots of time for sex with an almost equally unemployed cohort of women, meaning that really, really, unhappy part of the U.K. and its Euroallies is having many more children then the working part. That looks like a pretty bleak future, especially because if there is one thing we know, it is that socialized economies don’t grow a lot and carry obscene levels of unemployment, in fact usually far higher than official counts, because when you aren’t “looking,” you aren’t counted.

            Then, this mass of angry immigrants with a lot of time on their hands is of course as we have seen ripe for recruitment into terrorist groups and has lots of time for crime. Danes are something like 9th or 10th as far as criminal identification in their own country, with different immigrant groups holding pole position and all of the other points scoring positions in the Dansk crime championships.

            I would also like to advance the notion that anyone with the least interest in human rights and equality before the law would agree that dystopia is with us now in places like Rotherham where more than a thousand English citizens were raped. We don’t need to import terrorists from ISIS to the UK because Labour has sponsored ISIS polices and then hidden the crimes already. And of course Rotherham it turns out is only the tip of the iceberg as there are plenty of other rape rings with immigrant perpetrators and English victims, though none of them may have gone on as long and had so many victims. England has its Jimmy Saville, it didn’t need to import and cover up for hundreds more. Dystopia, well that’s in the eye of beholder and I would think a minor girl who has been gang raped thinks she has seen something dystopian. Status quo? Not so great!

            And of course, at the same time your allies have conspired to ruin all of Europe with a combination of a expansive safety net – all of which was only possible because they lived under an umbrella of American protection – and mass immigration from unfriendly countries, the birthrate is declining precipitously because Europeans have lost faith in themselves and in the future. So, the status quo is not worth keeping and the future looks dystopian indeed.

          • Simon Jenkins

            Damn, this is some pure-strain crazy you’ve tapped into here. I’m impressed with the way you’ve managed to interrelate all these conspiracy theories, you’re clearly a better class of loon.

          • Johnathan Swift Jr.

            So, Europe has not been flooded with millions of immigrants from the Muslim lands?

            Labour did not institute this as a policy under Blair?

            Please put this in your pipe and smoke it:

            “The huge increases in migrants over the last decade were partly due to a politically motivated attempt by ministers to radically change the country and “rub the Right’s nose in diversity”, according to Andrew Neather, a former adviser to Tony Blair, Jack Straw and David Blunkett.” 23/Oct/2009

            He said Labour’s relaxation of controls was a deliberate plan to “open up the UK to mass migration” but that ministers were nervous and reluctant to discuss such a move publicly for fear it would alienate its “core working class vote”.

            And terrorists in the U.K. and France and other E.U. countries have not been on the dole? Anjem Choudry and all the men he recruited don’t ring a bell?

            More than a thousand girls were not raped in Rotherham and Labour Party officials and the police didn’t cover it up?

            There are not millions of people attempting to flee Libya, Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria and Yemen for Germany, the EU and the U.K?

            Millions of immigrants – many of them from the Muslim lands are not on public support from Sweden to German, to the U.K. and Italy?

            Sorry, but you’re the one who is delusional if you believe the status quo is fine.

          • Johnathan Swift Jr.
          • Johnathan Swift Jr.

            So, Europe has not been flooded with millions of immigrants from the Muslim lands?

            Labour did not institute this as a policy under Blair?

            Please put this in your pipe and smoke it:

            “The huge increases in migrants over the last decade were partly due to a politically motivated attempt by ministers to radically change the country and “rub the Right’s nose in diversity”, according to Andrew Neather, a former adviser to Tony Blair, Jack Straw and David Blunkett.” 23/Oct/2009

            He said Labour’s relaxation of controls was a deliberate plan to “open up the UK to mass migration” but that ministers were nervous and reluctant to discuss such a move publicly for fear it would alienate its “core working class vote”.

            And terrorists in the U.K. and France and other E.U. countries have not been on the dole? Anjem Choudry and all the men he recruited don’t ring a bell?

            More than a thousand girls were not raped in Rotherham and Labour Party officials and the police didn’t cover it up?

            There are not millions of people attempting to flee Libya, Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria and Yemen for Germany, the EU and the U.K?

            Millions of immigrants – many of them from the Muslim lands are not on public support from Sweden to German, to the U.K. and Italy?

            Meanwhile, German school girls are told not to wear their skirts because it offends their new overlords.

            Sorry, but you’re the one who is delusional if you believe the status quo is fine.

          • John

            You might want to begin by reading some history.

          • Andrew Czernicki

            What an insightful comment. You might want to begin by making a point.

          • Ooh!MePurse!

            No, the tax burden is disproportionately paid for by higher earners. They pay more, proportionally, than at any other time in our history.

          • RedLT

            I should have been more careful with my choice of words here. Middle class people pay more as a percentage of wealth (note, not just income).

          • Doh

            Middle-class lefties are particularly vomit inducing. Scuttle off back to your Tuscan villa with Pollytwaddle.

          • RedLT

            So, this is your second comment on my posts and still no actual points, just name calling. Impressive stuff!

          • maynas

            you obviously are entirely ignorant of where tax receipts come from. They come from the well off. People on or below average income pay little or nothing “net” of tax
            They pay for the whiners allright

          • woolfiesmiff

            You haven’t got a clue what you’re talking about. Your concept of fairness is always one sided, you never ever talk about the contribution to society. No you are totally and utterly wrong if you want to change anything you have to get off your backside and contribute and no I dont mean demonstrate, damage and loot. Talking politics is the most futile thing you can do. As to your last paragraph I suggest you join us on planet reality and just read some of the spiteful, vitriolic, evil hatred spouted by your left wing mates. You seem blissfully unaware that the winners have indeed been looking after losers for a very long time. A community my friend consists of lots of different people doing different things with different views, in fact its the left who don’t understand community. White van drivers, English flags, and all . Sanctimonious lefty claptrap RedLT

          • https://www.facebook.com/brit.barricades Jon Barrow

            Agree with most of what you wrote. However, when RedLT writes ‘we need to discuss politics’ he’s right. The West is suffering from a kind of ‘Emperor’s New Clothes’ syndrome and someone has to be the little girl who spoke up, was repeatedly hushed and threatened – but in the end made te public see the truth. Dogmatic PC self-delusion is a powerful thing, and won’t fall away unless challenged. I usually try to do so in one way or another, and find that if you judge a situation well and don’t come across as Angry, then people will listen.

          • Doh

            People discuss politics all the time – it’s just that the Left try to shut it down.

          • an immigrant

            A community progresses on ‘solidarity’ i.e. standing together. A white van driver unable to make ends meet despite a hard day’s work is as much a part of the society hard done by the present economic model.

          • RedLT

            You’re just making wild accusations about my beliefs. Please tell me more of what I think, this is fascinating…

            On the off chance you’re interested in reality, I’m a committed capitalist and I entirely agree with you that everyone needs to step up and play their part to make it work.

            Where I diverge from you is that I think capitalism can be so much more than shareholder return. I think it can be something that rewards creativity and hard work, but provides a safety net for those who lose.

            Your rubbish about the left not understanding community is laughable. The left are responsible for the NHS, social security, race relations act and sexuality discrimination laws. It’s a little rich for you to claim we don’t understand community.

            I wish people would stop listening to extremists and claiming they represent everyone.

          • Doh

            You’re the only extremist here.

          • RedLT

            Do you have any contribution or are you just trolling?

          • Doh

            I have been hired by The Elders of the Internet to track down bullshitters and call them out.

          • kgelner

            The problem is if he did reply he would be shunned. There are very negative repercussions these days (including employment) to having too many people know you are of a conservative mind. There are zero repercussions to stating the most disturbing of leftist views.

          • Saul Till

            Yes. That’s true, although I see a marginal change in that direction, which seems to have taken place alongside the slow rightward drift of the last however many years

            My problem is not that a liberal-leftist objects to conservative social attitudes – it’s that they should be consistent about it. If you’re prepared to stand outside BBC studio demonstrating against Nick Griffin but you’re not prepared to even admit there’s anything wrong with the Guardian puff-piecing Hizb’ut Tahrir then you’re a hypocrite. As deeply unpleasant as Griffin is he’s never advocated beheading people for leaving his religion. And if you would scream blue murder at a conservative who was caught associating with a far-right white nationalist but you empty your mind and think happy thoughts when someone points out Corbyn’s associations with Islamists who advocate killing gays, adulterers and apostates(as well as the You-know-whos of course) then you are, again, a hypocrite.

            I can at least see some green shoots on the left as a small but significant number of liberals turn away from the iron-clad dogma of cultural relativism, multiculturalism-will-take-us-to-the-promised-land and reactionary anti-westernism. I really hope it burgeons, because at the moment liberalism is committing slow suicide and useful idiots like Corbyn are doing everything they can to speed the process up.

          • Johnathan Swift Jr.

            I suspect what Sue believes is what I believe, that politics is not a matter for the workplace. As the left and right have been driven farther and farther apart – due to the Internet in part – people tend to disagree more and more violently. So, in order to have a smooth working environment, its best to leave politics for other forums.

            I am more than willing to discuss politics anywhere else and I am usually able to keep calm and discuss contentious matters in a reasonable way, even with people who I disagree with. However, making the assumption at work that everyone agrees with you, left or right, prattling on, is insensitive and unprofessional, especially if the deck is stacked against someone numerically. I like to discuss or argue politics, but not everyone does and there are also many people who are perfectly intelligent and well informed who are not good, nor comfortable at debate. Not everyone feels lunch should be “Prime Minister’s Question Time,” with the shadow cabinet of your local school, hospital or staff room.

          • RedLT

            Fair point. That I can agree with. The rest of her comments, not so much.

          • Damon

            “I don’t want to benefit from an unfair system.”

            You’ll certainly condemn, then, any prominent left-wingers who send their offspring to private schools and grammar schools?

          • RedLT

            I think private schools are one of the major causes of inequality. I understand why people would want the best for their kids but I would love to see them phased out.

            I’m not for condemning people but I would certainly question how someone who claims to be on the left could explain that choice.

          • Alibarbs

            The only idea of “community” you have is one where where you’re in charge and feathering your own nest.

            Nothing to do with equality and everything to do with the fact you lack the wit and wisdom do make anything of yourself.

            As for your laughable comments about empathy – penny to a pound says that for all of your posturing towards an equitable society, you treat those closest to you like dirt and come out with this disingenuous BS to hide just what a nasty piece of work you actually are.

            Never mind, we can all rest easy because you’ll be found out eventually and all of your dishonest claims will amount to nothing, just like you have.

          • Doh

            Utter nonsense – that is all myth originating from socialist propaganda.

          • Aaron Adamson

            Life ain’t fair.

            Deal with it.

          • vieuxceps2

            Your post is up to the usual lefty level of thought. You begin by insulting all ,such as myself, who have lost an eye, then proceed to abuse language by strange use of “empathy” and invent a world where you “have no chance of winning”. Really? Try harder then.
            As to community,I think you’d be better off as a bee or a termite, they like communities. I’d prefer people to be individuals, kind but still individuals.As Margaret said “There is no such thing as society,there are men and women and families” .

          • Joe_NS

            “‘Envy” is always the cry of the right”?????

            Good grief, have you ever read such brain-dead, counterfactual rubbish in your life?

            Your left sort of empathy routinely kills off as many people as possible in the name of egalitarianism. In the 1950s Mao waged war on the landlords. Turns out there were tens of millions of them! Who knew?

            The left’s sense of community is always enforced and the “benefits” redistributed—or else.

            But don’t fret. I suspect that you are in little danger of benefitting from a just society. It’s too much work.

          • PaD

            tell that to the daughters of Rotherham

          • Grace Ironwood

            Red, It is generally agreed that it is modernity that killed the community. And traditional society. The atomisation (and anomie) is what we experience is result of hyper-individualism and, in western societies, this is compounded by the damage done to social cohesion by multiculturalism

          • RedLT

            I agree to some extent, but it doesn’t have to be this way. Sweden, Denmark and Costa Rica are all great examples of this. We have enough wealth, technology and creativity to re-balance things so that people understand that “I” am part of “society” and when I participate we all win.

            Margaret Thatcher stated that “there is no such thing as society” and then proceeded to enact laws and policies that fulfilled that prophesy. We are now living with the ramifications of the “me first” and “greed is good” culture and it’s become so entrenched that it’s hard even to change the discourse.

            You (not you personally) want less crime in your neighbourhood? We can do this by providing better education and employment prospects.

            You want more social cohesion? Build a diverse economy and stop using the language of ‘us’ and ‘them’.

            You want more money for the NHS? Stop spending so much money blowing people up in far-flung corners of the world.

            Sounds very easy, but apparently this makes me a radical leftie.

          • AJH1968

            How ironic that those that mouth off about conservatives being rich, arrogant, and out of touch, are indeed virtue signalling numpties who are rich, arrogant, and out of touch.

          • Sue Smith

            Don’t you just wish it was you, though?

          • Dominic Stockford

            Everyone who is a political and moral liberal (“progressive”) assumes that all the people they know are also liberal. Those who are politically and morally conservative merely HOPE that those they know might share their viewpoint.

          • Sue Smith

            Actually, that’s spot on. But progressivism is the 1 step forward/two steps backwards ideology.

            Scenario:

            “So, you’re off to court because you’ve been arrested?”
            “Yep, not my fault”
            “Well, we have just the lawyer for you and he’s a Human Rights Specialist. Don’t worry, you’ll never spend an hour in jail”;
            “Oh, that’s great; I get headaches so I don’t want to be in jail. Besides, with my wooden leg I’ll be victimized”;
            “No, don’t worry. The judge is a social worker; he knows Mum didn’t apply your wart paint and won’t let you spend an hour in jail. He knows it won’t help society and will damage your self esteem”;
            “I’m concerned because some Conservative prat keeps talking about Lora Norder”;
            “Yep, well those prats know diddley squat about the law. And, besides, accidents happen. It won’t be our fault if we let somebody out and they hurt a member of the community. And it won’t be your fault either. In fact, it’s the community’s fault – they shouldn’t be out at night anyway. And it’s their punitive and very dangerous capitalist system which creates criminals anyway”;
            “Well, that’s good. I was worried and beginning to think there actually were such things as ‘criminals’;
            “Mind your language there though – they’re economically and psychologically challenged social rejects”.

            Ahh, the great joys of progressivism. And it’s not tied to any inconvenient value system either. Very liberating really.

          • Frederick Sandall

            “Conservatives never presume” Wrong! I live in Surrey UK. My neighbour a Jeremy Corbyn supporter, told me she was told by a work colleague recently. “Ah now you’ve bought a house in……, you will vote Tory with us!”

          • Sue Smith

            Crass. She’s obviously learned a lot from the Left.

          • CouchSlob

            Your arrogance and elitism is getting slaughtered here by people with far keener minds than you.

            I’d think about giving up and going to bed if I were you.

          • Sue Smith

            I think you’ll find the correct English is:

            “Arrogance and elitism is BEING slaughtered”, not “getting” – surely.

          • CouchSlob

            Ha ha! Your snobbish pomposity is
            indistinguishable from parody. Does self-congratulation give you a warm glow,
            Sue?

          • Sue Smith

            Indeed it does, Slob. Give us a kiss; you know you want to!!

          • Chris Judge

            I hate to play the grammar card Sue, but two subjects in a sentence will surely lead you to “Arrogance and elitism ARE being slaughtered.
            More relevantly, your’e talking total tosh as others have pointed out better than I could.

          • Sue Smith

            You used the singular article “is” with something which should have been plural, “are”. I only corrected one of your mistakes because I’m kind. And I think you’ll find it’s “you’re” not “your’e”. Honestly, what IS happening in the Humanities faculties of British universities these days – or in school? I’ll bet I can guess….

            NOT Grammar 101.

          • an immigrant

            Interesting. You assume that lefties presume but when shown that Tories too presume, they learn it from the Left. I wish they learnt more.
            Re: ‘trickle down’, I think you really need to read (or google in the least) than to assume that it is envy.

          • Sue Smith

            It’s the language of the left which betrays its own bigotry. See previous posting on those particular words and phrases including, but not limited to,

            rich
            tax avoiders
            prats
            arrogant
            Eton

            Well, you get the idea.

          • Count Dooku

            You shouldn’t have left (pardon the pun).

            I stick around, I argue and I wind them up.

          • douglas redmayne

            I would not want to be friends with anyone as spiteful, sanctimonious and stupid as you.

          • Olterigo

            Why? Because in their opinion any smart, well-spoken, educated person would vote and think just like they do.

          • Spivy

            Thank God I was never educated by you. Your judgmental arrogance is beyond belief, and no one like you should be educating anyone.

          • Sue Smith

            LOL

            Hit a nerve, did I?

          • Mrs Crewe

            I’m a lone voice in Local Govt! I’ve fallen amongst Guardian readers who assume that anyone working for public sector is a Labour voter. I worked in all sectors and this I can say. The public sector is the easiest place to work with the best pay and T&Cs with the littlest output expected.
            I too am baffled by the picture they paint of the typical ‘Tory voter’. There simply aren’t enough of these mythical super rich, amoral, cold hearted, snobs to have handed the Torys the win!

          • Sue Smith

            You have my sympathy, Madam. And it’s the PRESUMPTION which so gets up my nose. Arrogance on steroids and yet the Left will always turn the tables and say that’s what the Right does. It’s called a “projection”!! Psychologists are onto this kind of behaviour and call it out.

            As I write this Al Jezeera here on Sydney TV is presenting stories about poor, unfortunate ‘migrants’ amassing at the Croation border and having to deal with “xenophobic, racist Europeans”.

            Now, repeat after me readers..

            STICKS AND STONES MAY BREAK MY BONES,
            BUT NAMES WILL NEVER HURT ME.

          • Jaria1

            One thing I envy Australia for is their ability to chuck out a PM. without outside interference, who s not up to the job

          • Sue Smith

            I could agree with you but your syntax made your comment incomprehensible.

          • Jaria1

            Suggest you attend to your duties at school now the new terms started

          • Prometheus

            As much as I appreciate your revulsion, nothing will change until these people learn that there exist views outside their bubble. One of the great things about the semi-educated spartist left is how they are so easily blindsided by the realisation that they are being spoken to by someone that disagrees with their worldview and says so openly without the slightest hint of embarassment. You will be amazed at how the left wing noise machine declines in volume and often becomes almost embarassed once it realises that you are immune to emotional guilt tripping and cultural intimidation. They rely on the fact that the average person fears the ‘social death’ of being thought ‘unenlightened’. So we must marshall our arguments and prove that we have no such fear, and ensure that whenever we debate, we win, or at least land some serious punches. A few heads above the parapet, and more will follow.

          • Nkaplan

            The thing I find interesting is how often many of the less vociferous so called leftists will quietly confess their distinctly conservative opinions when no longer in the company of their more emotionally incontinent comrades.

            Often just a few well placed questions can make a self proclaimed leftist admit that actually the family is quite important, that certain elements of Islam may not be ideally suited to integration in Europe, that the idea of ever-closer union maybe isn’t all its cracked up to be, and that there really isn’t any good reason to think equality of outcome has any value at all. Depressingly however, these opinions are never publicly confessed because the social cost would be too high. That to me is a truly depressing indictment of the grip leftism has through no merit of its own,

          • Damaris Tighe

            These people also have to learn that they’re not the only ones with intellect. They assume that the right are boneheads.

          • vieuxceps2

            Unfortunately, leftwingery has become the default vitue position. Only Lefties are compassionate and kind. It is not possible to be a good person and not vote left. Ask them.

          • Grace Ironwood

            I’m trying to have a friendship with a sister in law who is a man-hating Christianity-hating, muslim-loving Greens activist.
            Recently she told me quite seriously that the PM was in politics to destroy the lives of the vulnerable. No concept of disagreement between reasonable people of goodwill !
            I pointed out that most politicians are concerned with ideas about the public good & often disagree on the means. She was so shocked, I don’t think she’d ever heard such a thing before. I got the impression her views are pretty much the rule in the therapeutic public service.
            🙂

          • Sue Smith

            That was an interesting anecdote, and you’re brave wanting to befriend somebody that negative. I guess that’s why so many people take drugs – they just feel bad about themselves so it’s easier to ratchet that a notch further to the entire human race.

            My sister is a little like the person you describe and we have an impenetrable void in which exists the ‘dark matter’ of Left and Right politics. She has tried to reach me half way by learning about film (a passion of mine), but it’s no use. She’s so inculcated in victimhood that I find her disturbing even to look at!!!!! You know the old cliche about ‘relations’ and ‘friends’!!

          • Grace Ironwood

            I just lost my young sister to breast cancer – just after her thirtieth.
            She was very different to me, and we hadn’t been that close. During the years of her illness we grew closer as women and sisters than I could have believed possible & I now value other family members with equally little in common as a result of our shared loss and realisation of the radical contingency of life.
            How might you feel if your sister were terminal? As I come to the close of my homily I have to concede that mine didn’t have the irritating characteristics you describe above 🙂

          • Leon Wolfeson

            Yes, you do,right. As you think you’re all conservatives, as you avoid other people.As people are accurate. Guess you’ll have to sit alone now.

            Your family issues, well, that’s another issue isn’t it.

      • GraveDave

        Nothing to do with intelligence. Obstinacy and stubbornness; a great belief in the mission at all costs perhaps. But no more surreal than the crusading Tory vision of IDS – and look at the damage he’s done and at what costs in terms of ruined lives and money down the drain. In any case some of the thickest people I’ve ever known have been on the Right.
        Sadly…

        • Curiously Hard

          Stop buying the T-Shirt’s and mugs Dave, what government hasn’t ruined lives and thrown money down a drain?
          Every action has a reaction.

          • GraveDave

            Yes but some are just so insufferably ignorant of it.

        • suchan104

          IDS has done considerably less damage than those who were managing the country in the run up to the 2008 financial crisis, unless you think doubling unemployment was somehow beneficial to the population at large and nobody suffered? You also talk about IDS throwing “money down the drain” while ignoring things such as the NHS IT system fiasco that cost the country £12bn or the Millenium Dome, or even the simple fact that under Labour the size of the state rose from 37% to 50% of GDP; a faster rise than any other country in any post-war decade. All governments waste money which is precisely why government should be as small as possible rather than expecting it to manage every facet of our lives.

        • Sue Smith

          If that gives you comfort, I do hope it makes you sleep better at night: remembering, of course, that the right generally has the capital and the risk appetite to keep people like you employed.

          I think it optimistic expecting you to understand any of this, of course.

          I feel sorry for you that you express such anger about your life, your society and the taxpayers who fund it. Let’s unpack some of the language if you’re in doubt about that comment:

          surreal
          ruined
          damaged
          drain
          thickest
          crusading

          All of which proves: the left doesn’t think, it EMOTES.

      • Billy.

        Higher education is closely linked to leftism. Im sure the leftists are more intelligent than you

        • Sue Smith

          But dumb if they’re making far less money with all that brilliance.

          • Billy.

            That you measure success purely by financial measures shows what a morally inept person you really are

          • Sue Smith

            Risible. Hilarious! They why are people from the left like you so covetous???

          • Billy.

            Youre showing that youre not very bright Sue, its the right who are obsessed with status and profit.

          • Sue Smith

            You should be on the Comedy Channel. Watch the punctuation instead – that’ll be more helpful in the long run.

            You know it makes sense.

          • Billy.

            lol keep running back to edit your posts more and more, that really shows how secure you are, you silly deluded lady. PS im using my phone hence lack of punctuation. But dont let that stop you finding your false superority. I can only imagine how sad and lonely you must be to brag about (probably fictional) education and wealth

          • Dunstan

            She is much more articulate than you Billy boy. Quit while you’re….behind. (Aren’t there some exciting apps you can amuse yourself with?)

          • Sunshine Sux

            no, it isn’t

          • Billy.

            You would have to be the most delusional person on earth to deny the obviois truth that its the right who are obsessed with status and profit. The leftist ideal seeks to remove those motivations

          • Holly

            Then what!

          • Colonel Mustard

            And to remove much else as well. Including the freedom to think and articulate differently.

          • suchan104

            Why should the Left sit in judgement on those motivations? The Left continually fail to understand that we are not one huge, grey, homogeneous mass called “society”. We really ARE individuals, with different strengths, weaknesses, skills, desires, motivations, etc. and it is not for you to sit in judgement upon anybody else’s motivations. Who are you (or anyone on the Left) to judge someone who is motivated to acquire wealth or status as being “immoral”? What exactly is immoral about profit? The lack of a profit motive is exactly why socialist economies always fail. Why should I bother working hard, acquiring additional qualifications or using any creative talents I have if I’m not going to profit from them any more than the person who sits on their backside all day? You sound like a rather naive student socialist.

          • hugo761

            Agreed, the left have always come a cropper when they try to impose a false sense of ‘equality’ which just crushes the human spirit. Venezuela being just one of the latest cases in point. How many times do we have to go through this before it becomes blindingly obvious to even the most die hard lefty zealot?

          • maynas

            an ideal that speaks worlds for their ignorance of human nature and the oppresion and violence they have to usw to maintain power when they get a chance to try and enforce their crazy theories. Read some history Billy, you are the ignorant one.

          • Billy.

            Cool nonsense, fact free rambling followed by “read history” when your moronic post had exactly zero history, jesus youre stupid

          • Holly

            There you hit the nail on the head on the difference between the two.
            The right make profits, by selling products and services that people use…enable individuals and businesses to earn a salary.
            The left prey on the poor, vulnerable, sick, old and young, and pocket the ‘profit’ themselves from the very organisations put in place to help them.
            How much of a personal fortune has Blair amassed, by fronting organisations aimed at helping those in need of help?
            The same can be said of Brown.

            In under a week Corbyn has accepted a substantial pay rise, and a chauffeured car, but of course you will argue that this is his ‘entitlement’, failing to realise how hypocritical your stance is, to his sponging off the taxpayer, you claim to dislike.

            More people receive something back from the right’s profit making, than they ever will from the left.

          • Paul Brown

            But Blair and Brown are both on the Right. Blair was the most right-wing prime minister since the Second World War, so what are you talking about?

          • Holly

            Blair may well have been on the right, but his Chancellor was implementing left wing spending policies.
            They had very good spin merchants, who fed the MSM, and the masses, regardless of their income status, had something they had never had before…
            Cheap, easy credit.

          • Steve Larson

            Blair still implemented more Labour policy in a month than most Labour leaders have in a political career.

            That has to be accepted as well.

          • Colonel Mustard

            Your avatar gives the game away.

            Your comment is tripe.

          • http://careersreport.com Annie Mcdaniel

            Follow path of number of people @ who are earning profit monthly by doing an online jobs… Get informed more on my Disqus

          • Des Demona

            Is that you Sue?

          • SClanding

            And don’t forget the American Left’s current love of Hillary Clinton whom founded a “non-profit’ which only used 9% of its contributions for charitable purposes and half of that 9% was spent on parties in NYC and Hollywood to smooze with other self-righteous progressive glitterati.

            Or that the great Marxist messiah, Barack Obama, never gave more than .01% of his salary to any charitable organization but was able to purchase a million dollar home in toney Hyde Park on a state senator salary…..he was surrounded in Hyde Park by his fellow leftist activists whom had made millions off of running “non-profits’ using federal tax grants to supposedly to help southside Chicago.

            The one thing that Obama ever ran was the Annanberg Foundation which lasted less than 13 months because nobody could account for where the 187 MILLION dollars actually went …the auditors in the end gave up and could only conclude that NONE ever made it to any children….

          • jhp151

            Do you have a link to source the Annanberg Foundation missing money?

          • The Masked Marvel

            It was the Chicago Annenberg Challenge, not the Foundation itself, which Obama diid run, for 4 years. He worked with unrepentant Weather Underground terrorist, Bill Ayers.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            “unrepentant”

            And when you actually catch up with the modern world…

          • Jonty Cecil

            This is often true, but on the right there is more honesty about it. Leftism is dominant Now – do you think Zuckerberg, Jobs or Cook are not neocons? they dont pay tax, they wear tshirts but send the lawyers in pinstripe suits. Its the wolves in sheeps clothing you’ve got to worry about.

          • CrassyKnoll

            Yes, it is greedy to want to keep the fruits of your labors.

            But it is not greedy to lay claim to the fruits of another’s labor.

            Tell me again how you are intelligent?

          • Sue Smith

            And risking their capital to provide you with jobs, bank loans and the consumer goods you wear, eat and use every single day of the week. Where do you think these came from? Out of the clouds?

            Somebody risked his or her capital so that you could have the pleasure of owning them – when it could have gone pear-shaped (and very often does) and they could have lost a very great deal of money.

            I’m trying to explain to the ignorant how real capitalism works.

          • Sunshine Sux

            well said Sue, politics of jealousy and inadequacy, despite education

          • Billy.

            Nobody more inadequate than you at critical thought

          • Holly

            Explain why you think THEIR thoughts are inadequate compared to YOURS.

            Apart from insulting people, try and explain to us, just how getting rid of the motivation of people, who aspire to, or have reached some ‘status’ in life, by offering a product or service to millions, and have made profits, to expand and reach millions more.

            What will inspire the human soul, spirit, and well being of an individual in your ‘grey world’, where no one is encouraged to aspire to reach a ‘status’ with the public, or make anything other than taxes to fund your uninspiring ‘grey world’.

            Maybe you’d be nice enough to explain why the financial sector in the UK made more profit, in a very short time, off the backs of the taxpayer, before, during, and after the financial crash under Labour, than anyone of any ‘status’ or profit making company did.

            I know, you’ll reckon I’m stupid, or thick, or even a troll, by not agreeing that it, ‘saved the world’, but surely avoidance would have been a better, cheaper way of ‘saving’ it.

        • Blazeaway

          The clever people saw what the left had become many years ago and they departed many years ago.
          The ones who remain are just conformists

        • the baracus

          In what way is higher education linked to socialism? If you mean that many academics are socialists, then this merely confirms that professions that are not subjected to commercial pressures tend to accumulate people from the left. Those that prefer the benefits of the commercial world, those with more aspiration so to speak, find work outside of academia.

        • http://www.ukipforbritain.co.uk/ ukipforbritainwebsite

          Universities teach a lot of people to be stupid.

        • Colonel Mustard

          Yes, of course they are. Infinitely more intelligent. But curious that with so much towering intellectual superiority they are so insecure about freedom of thought and expression.

        • David Craig

          There are more than thermometers measured in degrees that have no brains

        • The_greyhound

          corbyn’s supporters are strikingly poorly educated and inarticulate. You don’t need to take my word for it – that’s implicitly how they described themselves to YouGov a few weeks back : https://yougov.co.uk/news/2015/08/27/you-may-say-im-dreamer-inside-mindset-jeremy-corby/

          • kitten

            You think you’re intellectually superior to a Corbyn supporter?
            At least we wouldn’t fall for this obvious propaganda.

            Do you know Corbyn voted against the EEC and doesn’t like the EU in its current format?

            And you do know that YouGov is an EU propaganda tool to try and get us to remain?

            Fooled you I suppose.

          • Tamerlane

            Corbyn’s opposition to the EEC/EU is the same as Benn’s, because it’s a capitalist club that by definition (in his world) elevates profit above the rights and welfare of the worker. He has no love of self-determination or sovereignty and would happily sign the UK over to a supreme global Soviet were it in his power to do so. He is no friend of mine.

          • kitten

            I don’t think that’s true, but you do pose an interesting theory which I will investigate.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            Well of course not, as you blame him for all that, and nicking your fifth house money. “Thanks Obama”, eh?

            And I know, that terrible self-determination and sovereignty, you have to pay a little tax sometimes!

          • Tamerlane

            Yahdda yahdda yahdda yah…

          • Leon Wolfeson

            So I was correct.

          • Ian Beale Steeplecoque

            Says the Barclay’s paid shill.

          • sungeipatani

            Do you have any evidence to support that YouGov is an EU propaganda tool?

          • kitten

            Firstly, they’ve repeatedly over egged our support of the EU so to make us Brexit supporters feel like we were in the minority.

            Secondly, I joined it as their results kept showing no interest in Brexit which I didn’t believe, as soon as they realised I wanted ‘out’ they stopped polling me.

            I have spoken to many people that had the exact same experience.

            Thirdly, the owners of YouGov have openly admitted their support of it and desire that we should remain.

        • Nick

          Its because many of the more intelligent believe that they can control and shape the lives of those who are their inferiors. And it leads directly to the fascism and communism and the other crimes of the left, as they seek to impose their vision of the future.

          More intelligent, yes. But intelligence and wisdom are often two different things.

        • CrassyKnoll

          Organized religion is closely linked to conservatism. I’m sure the right are more moral than you.

          (The true irony as is that you are probably not intelligent enough to see what I did – at least until I pointed it out.)

        • jhp151

          Leftist have created several fields in higher Education that exist just to confirm Leftist beliefs. These fields tend not to hold up when the studies are actually analyzed and outsiders attempt to reproduce the results.

        • Clean Willie

          I’m not sure about the UK, but in the US the higher education most associated with the left is in areas like anthropology, sociology, education, English literature and other squishy and largely useless liberal arts disciplines where success does not so much require great intellect as the correct set of leftist views. It is a self-perpetuating system. The STEM fields, which in my opinion require more true intelligence, are far less infected with the political bacillus of leftism.

        • http://atlantarofters.blogspot.com/ The Sanity Inspector

          Intelligence is not always a good moral guide, as all the highly cerebral fans of Stalin in the 1930s demonstrated.

        • http://atlantarofters.blogspot.com/ The Sanity Inspector

          Certain academics are eminent in their field of study, and then that convinces them that they are all-round savants. They believe that their professional accomplishments translate into political perspicacity. It isn’t necessarily so.

        • Doh

          Higher eduction is mostly public sector, where the Left love to hang out.

      • mrs1234

        I think it is a worrying indication of how deep the claws of the Left’s claim to the moral high ground are sunk. Upheld without question by the high priests of the BBC and most other TV stations, anyone who goes against their creed is excommunicated, their reputation put in the stocks and subjected to contempt. If you live in London, work in the ‘media’ and don’t subscribe to their dogma your life will become more difficult. I suppose it is the same in Sydney, New York, Vienna etc.

        I read Nick Cohen’s book in 2008 and was relieved to hear someone voicing my confusion about the direction the Left had taken. However, his continued loyalty only served to further confuse. Why didn’t he leave then? (he is not alone, look at Rod Liddle he writes constantly against their stance but is a determined Labour voter. )Perhaps Cohen was hoping the Left would have a revelation, that it would wake up to what their unholy alliances might usher in for everyone around the world.

        The most worrying thing is that this worldview has been drip fed unchecked to school pupils and university students for decades and for the majority it is their faith and Corbyn their saviour.

        • poverty denier

          I have no time for red Tories, they should shut up and put up or join the Conservative Party.

          • Sue Smith

            Wash your mouth out with soap!!

          • Trini’s dad

            Yah raas, wha’di problem ‘ma? Cian make your mind up wha to tink?

          • Sue Smith

            Nurse!

          • Jaria1

            Better still get those left wing turds prove how open and above board they are and Call themselves the Communist party

          • Leon Wolfeson

            Yea, you demand they fill your PC bigotry, your labels…

          • Jaria1

            Thats right

          • Leon Wolfeson

            Well hey, at least you’re honest.

          • Jaria1

            Anything to get shot of you. Why not try it sometime

          • Leon Wolfeson

            Ahh, shooting Jews. You’re so unoriginal. And no, I have no intention of committing suicide.

          • Jaria1

            Feeling lonely again?

          • Leon Wolfeson

            Thinking you’ve killed all the Jews near me again?

          • UKSteve

            That proves it! You are a radical Islamist, attempting to denigrate the Jewish people by typing interminable and stupid bilge into Disqus forums.

            Gotcha!

          • Leon Wolfeson

            Ah yes, you think you’ve trapped a Jew. So you can spew garbage at me, Islamist. Or shoot me, given your views.

            Go back to Stormfront, immigrant.

          • UKSteve

            Truly imbecilic. Unalloyed, 24 karat, blatant imbecility.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            So you are, Jewhater.

          • mightymark

            And by what rights exactly do you presume to tell anyone what they should do?

        • Fencesitter

          Liddle’s just abandoned ship too.

        • Des Demona

          So Mr Cohen was confused in 2008 after Blair? And is even more confused in 2015 under Corbyn?
          It would appear that Mr Cohen is perpetually confused. I wonder what kind of Labour party would actually suit him?

        • Sue Smith

          Your final paragraph is very salient and disturbing. We have a demographic of university students – in Australia, so I cannot speak about the UK – who are enrolled in Arts and Humanities degrees where they are totally (I mean TOTALLY) propagandized towards Marxist ideologies. They get into those degrees with lower marks than for other degrees, end up with less satisfying outcomes than other students in other courses, then become resentful and politically active because what they perceive to be their ‘efforts’ and study has provided them not a scintilla of improvement in getting part of the national economic cake. And all this proved that what their Marxist tutors had said all along was correct!! All dressed up, as it were, with nowhere to go.

          Consequently, this demographic of politically-charged Marxist-inculcated propagandists finally support and wholly believe the tosh disseminated by left-wing media and its clones – writing vicious tripe on the internet about how bad Conservatives are. You see, an Arts degree teaches you to THINK what other people believe rather than FOR YOURSELF. My advice: ‘when in big hole stop digging’.

          Never educate the people beyond what they can usefully do with that education. Few revolutions, if any, have ever succeeded without an educated, under-utilized (middle) class. That’s what worries me.

          As a final comment, it puts into perspective their support of the invasion from the Third World; ‘migrants’ who are going to do to Europe and the UK what bored university students have long wanted to do to it themselves!!! It’s called “ending the status quo”.

          • Xchris

            You are quite something. Thank god you are on the other side of the world.

          • Sue Smith

            Kisses to you too!!

          • Leon Wolfeson

            Keep that PC bigotry rolling!

          • Ridcully

            You have far too much time on your hands.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            Oh right, I’m not working for you for minimum wage.

          • Ridcully

            Hah, that didn’t take long did it? You must spend every waking hour scuttling up and down the comments section, looking for something to post your attempted rebuttals to ( and they’re always responses to other people’s ideas aren’t they? Never your own).
            Still, if it keeps you off the streets…

          • Leon Wolfeson

            No, I don’t have your job.

            As you whine about me, and call facts attempts. And ignore what I say.

          • Ridcully

            Haha, do you ever get out of that computer chair? Are you catheterised? Anyway, anyone so arrogant as to refer to their opinions as “facts” can safely be ignored.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            So, you admit that I was right and you must pay attention to me. But no, I’m not you.

          • Ridcully

            And “Yah boo!” to you too (which, let’s be honest, is what most of your comments can be distilled down to). Well, as much as I’d love to stay and chat, it’s Saturday evening and I have a social life; have fun!

          • Leon Wolfeson

            So you read what you imagine my posts, in your not-reading, to be. Kay.

          • Ridcully

            Bored now. Have a nice life.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            I’d like to wish you the same, but your allergy to the truth, well.

          • Maureen Fisher

            Do not feed the troll. Ignore and it will go away.

          • UKSteve

            And not enough intelligence.

          • Aaron Adamson

            Yes and we have a big moat.

          • Sue Smith

            …which your beautiful asylum seekers don’t find to be a barrier at all!!!

          • Joe_NS

            “god”? Who is that? Your cat?

          • Xchris

            You’re not intelligent enough to understand.

          • Joe_NS

            Ouch! What a wit!

          • aspeckofboggart

            I am on the other side too. It’s okay. I’ll live.

          • Prometheus

            Outstanding comment. Academia is the most important battleground. Without doing something about it there is almost no point fussing about what politicians do. The real danger will come in the future from the young of the present. They will learn to hide their snarling and resentful ideology behind the mask of adult sobriety, just as the Blair generation did.

          • Sue Smith

            Thank you for your comments!!

            The polity has changed because there are now just SO MANY in the demographic I’ve described and, since McDonalds can’t soak all of them up, many will turn their attention to getting attention. And I think, for many, the ideological assumptions behind victimhood were fomented in their younger years, around the kitchen table and academics merely gave that a more articulate voice. I’ve seen it all before myself at university. My own children absolutely refused to be cowed by Marxism at university and said so. Yeah, that was a great day.

            In the meantime, culture wars are certain to continue.

            PS: My sister has two Masters degrees from Sydney Uni but has joined an undergraduate course on Film to learn about that art form. She sent me an sms recently to say there were 800 undergrad students in a Geography lecture. It proves my point. Geography!! Give me a break.

          • Grace Ironwood

            As someone who has worked in that environment for decades I can tell you that the students come in already primed on the issues: the society they live in is racist, sexist and bent on the destruction of the planet. They truly have no idea that theirs (the civilised world) is the freeist most egalitarian

          • Sue Smith

            Thanks for your interesting observations. The school curriculum, in Australia at least, is heavily oriented towards ‘victim’ culture, aboriginal ‘invasion’ narratives and other propaganda. We call this the “black armband view of history”. I only taught for 10 years and I was fortunate to be given the top classes much of the time. This gave me a wonderful opportunity to try and reverse some of the propaganda which passed for pedagogy (no alliteration intended!). Let me be clear; there are many wonderful, intelligent but highly suggestible students. Few would ‘rock the boat’ in those top classes because they wanted the marks to get into the top courses at university and didn’t want to jeopardize that. It made me realize just how conservative many kids are and how much they desperately desire boundaries. They need to know who’s in charge!!

            My students and I spent our lessons together involved in the joy of learning – to read, write and celebrate poetry and language. In history classes the board was always divided up into what the textbook claimed and what ‘alternative narratives’ might have been possible!!!

            But it is beyond argument that they are propagandized to think in a certain way and to adopt a hegemonic approach to issues – not limited merely to minority groups and white guilt but, as you correctly suggest, a range of social issues which were beyond the remit of teenagers when I was their age, (Thank God I had a childhood without worrying about the planet – even though we all faced nuclear destruction at any hour of the day during the Cold War!)

            My family, when I was growing up, was philosophical about this and none of us were bent out of shape through grievance – certainly not that we lived in a society where anything relating to business and money was BAD and the poor were noble and good. That nostrum wouldn’t have lasted 10 minutes in our home, nor in mine when my children were raised.

            No wonder we have epidemic levels of teenage depression and suicide. Adults have a lot to answer for! And the school system? Appalling.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            So, you managed to last 10 years, not teaching properly. Sad.

            And I feel for your kids, taught that money is the only marker of value. As you talk about the too-low levels for you, and the evils of universal education.

          • acidulous

            The silver lining in all this is the current crop aren’t as smart as their brain washers. The left destroyed education to make more of their own kind. But the QUALITY went down as well. So at some point they will have, for their shock troops, a whole bunch of stupids who can’t think for themselves. It really is a double edged sword.

          • Sue Smith

            This is where individual teachers are so vitally essential; bringing fresh air and alternate opinions into the classroom or lecture theatre. To do otherwise is tantamount to abuse.

            I would encourage all students in university Humanities Departments to ask, “what OTHER readings are possible”?

            When I studied Musicology as a ‘mature age student’ (in my early 40’s) I wrote to the Dean of the Faculty of Music (an Ethnomusicologist) after I read course material which debunked notions of “the canon” with a kind of postmodern revisionism suggesting that all musics were equal. I responded that I disagree with her entirely; that this simply wasn’t true.

            On the first day of an internal residential school she came looking for me and pulled me out of a lecture, asking me to explain. I merely said to her, “you do not do your particular music (ethnic) any favours by trying to diminish mine – and my love for it – so that yours will look as good or better”.

            She turned on her heel and left. And I still got High Distinctions in every subject of the course.

            It can be done!! Stand up to the propagandists.

          • acidulous

            Isn’t is amazing how fast they melt when you finally tell them you have no clothes! They are so used to hiding behind the shield of intimidation that all it takes is someone with courage to stick a pin in their column of hot air. But that’s the thing. How many people ARE there with the requisite courage? Not many. Which is why we are where we are.

          • Sue Smith

            Great comment. A morale booster, of sorts. I’ve spent my entire life weeding out bullshit and calling it out. And at school my classroom door was firmly closed in the endless pursuit of teaching kids about real thinking, originality and freedom of speech. (Meanwhile, my ‘registrations’ were filled out to the letter just as the Head Teacher asked.)

            One boy from a poor background (and who had a stroke when he was born which left him with a disability) was hungry to learn. He came to my door and said, “miss, what novels do I need to read which are absolutely essential for a meaningful life?”. He was 15 so I recommended “David Copperfield” and “Great Expectations”. He went away for the summer break and was back on my door first day next year …”I’ve read them miss; they’re great”.

            This student had enough problems without the additional burden of hatred towards the world and fear of armageddon. He went to university and into “Legal Studies”.

          • acidulous

            The worst thing anyone can do to a child is to destroy their innocence and take away their ability to find happiness by polluting their minds before they even have a chance to seek and explore the world. You sound like a lady after my own heart. Bless you.

          • Sue Smith

            Thank you so much. Our children become adults at the most tender age now and their joy is short-lived, their language adulterated by political correctness and a censorious media.

            The best we can do is show them how to ‘read’ what they consume – films, TV, other media – by urging them to stand back from it a little and process all the complex signals that are being conveyed as ‘entertainment’. And the cinema, of course, is the most seductive and suggestible – often very subtly – of all.

            Some resisted this of course, thinking I’d trodden on their idols (“Oh miss, we went to the movies and all we could think about was wide shot, close up, mise-en-scene; you’ve ruined it for us”!!)

          • Leon Wolfeson

            Yes yes, you demand everything is passed through your strict ideological filter, that “fun” be the first thing discarded, and then the media examined closely for doctrine which does not match the template…

          • Grace Ironwood

            Leon you pork chop she’s talking about teaching the kids the formal language a

          • Leon Wolfeson

            Ah, so I’m a “pork chop” and not a Human. As you talk about teaching your ideology…starting with eliminating fun, right.

          • Grace Ironwood

            Sorry, I didn’t finish my remark as my modem went down.

            Sue Smith was talking about teaching students about the language of the film form. It’s an approach to learning about how film constructs it’s meaning by the typical means at its disposal, like cuts or transitions. We can liken this the to the way we might study the form taken by the novel or how painting works as the particular medium it is. It is called Formalism.No ideology involved.

            I still say you are a pork chop or if you prefer, a loon 🙂

            No need to answer.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            Yea, silence, right, as you go “UR MAD”.

            Really, the rest of your camouflage is unnecessary.

          • UKSteve

            Please ignore the pork chop…..I mean TROLL!

          • Leon Wolfeson

            Yes, planting your bullshit and cultivating it. And you had to hide your ideological indoctrination from other teachers, right.

            So, you taught a poor disabled kid what he could expect in your society. Hence, he went looking for ways to avert it, right. Good result, from my perspective.

          • Arbite

            What exactly is wrong with telling him to read those books? Which from the context of the rest of the post I assume to be slightly more optimistic than the usual “1984. Farenheit451, Brave New World, Lord of the Flies” stuff they give you in Highschool to “harden you up” or whatever they call it?

          • Dave Roberts

            It’s no good trying to reason with Leon, many have tried and all have failed on several blogs.

          • Grace Ironwood

            As in a fairy story. Will he ever find his prince?
            🙂

          • Leon Wolfeson

            Screaming hate at me is not reason, and your multiple personalities all write in the same way, you know.

          • UKSteve

            I’ve flagged a dozen or so of his posts. Let’s wait and see.

          • Sue Smith

            Avoid this sad little troll and his hate-fuelled rants. He’s one of the lonely types I’ve described in my comments – over-educated with nowhere to go.

          • Grace Ironwood

            Sue. It’s very generous and patient of you describe Leon’s problem as being one of over-education.

          • Sue Smith

            I’m like that; I feel sorry for losers and try to help them further along the road to their own misery!!!

          • Leon Wolfeson

            Also known as your being a bigot and a nasty ****. Right.

          • UKSteve

            I think “over-educated” is stretching it, from what I’ve read!

          • Sue Smith

            Irony alert.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            Yes, you run away from the truth. As you spew your PC bigotry, and hate on the education you couldn’t manage.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            That’d be “literature”.

            But my point was he’s talking about telling kids that they can expect the situation the main characters are in. Which us hardly optimistic!

          • UKSteve

            A good result from our perspective would be you donating your PC to charity, Oh tedious and irrelevant troll.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            So, you talk to yourself. As you talk about your personalities.

            I’m not, unlike you, politically correct in the first place.
            As you argue that Jews should not have computers.

          • UKSteve

            Flagged.

            For “our”, read Disqus readers.

            Go and see a doctor?

          • Leon Wolfeson

            No, for “our”, I read as is accurate your multiple personalities. Of course.

            As you flag anything by a Jew, of course, on your principles. Of Jewhate.

          • UKSteve

            No idea how you’re still posting your idiocies here.

            DT Mods – really? Seriously?

          • Leon Wolfeson

            Of course you have no idea why Jews are allowed to post.

            Keep spewing that call for censorship of Jews.

          • Cassandrina

            Unfortunately in my day, and I believe still today, schools and universities have not the true capability to properly advise on future career moves for students.
            I remember, as coming from a single parent family, being lauded at infant school for my art, but later schools were devoid of any form of advice to me or others.
            Today unfortunately left wing influence in UK education and other public services is rife.
            In my opinion Blair over 10 years significantly increased the politicizing of all public services except perhaps the military; but judging by recent comments from retired generals he seems to have had some success there.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            Yes, when you spray them with your beloved napalm, they melt. Right.

          • acidulous

            Thanks for the idea!

          • Leon Wolfeson

            Oh dear.

          • acidulous

            LOL.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            You find mass murder funny? See my last reply.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            Yes, shame your place was terminated. You keep spitting on learning as a concept.

          • Terry Field

            The shits are all unionised

          • Leon Wolfeson

            I’m sure you think your shits are. But that’s nothing to do with anything else here is it? Just your strange ideas.

          • Terry Field

            Not my shite, your shits, Leon; indeed the shits you are full of.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            No, you haven’t crammed your shits down my throat. So sorry.

          • grammarschoolman

            I had a similar experience in my PGCE course when I wrote an essay on Gifted and Talented students pointing out that the term was an insult to the genuinely academically gifted and that, even though they were the most important children in any school and in the country, they always got the worst deal in any non-selective school because the curriculum and teaching dragged them down to the level of the rest.

            The amount of smoke coming out of the senior lecturer’s ears (who threatened that I would fail the entire course if I didn’t change my comments) was roughly equivalent to the amount of praise I got from the external examiner (and, yes, I passed as the top student in my cohort without changing a word of the essay).

          • Sue Smith

            Yes, I can very well believe what you say. We are living in the world of dumbed-down education so that everybody can achieve (i.e. nobody) and no student has their self-esteem impaired. Apparently it’s the nanny state’s role now to protect them from themselves, and failure. And we wonder why young people have epidemic levels of depression, self-harm and suicide (well, that’s the gory picture in Australia). Nuts to that kind of education!! I say let’s return to skills-based, non propaganda-ridden education where students can actually achieve in basic literacy and skills which will equip them for the workplace.

            All this just makes it easier for the really bright kids to get ahead. Counter-intuitive for the “equality zombies” of the Left – they NEVER get it at all!!

          • Robert Andersen

            I was threatened by my my visiting tutor for a similar viewpoint and resigned from the course as she insisted she would fail me unless I changed to her mode of thinking.
            Back to industry now whilst Geography majors are left to teach maths!

          • UKSteve

            Just briliant! 🙂

          • Brian Thomas

            It is only Western music that discovered modulation.

          • Sue Smith

            Indian classical.

          • Shawn Smith

            The problem is that they also can’t be convinced otherwise by reason or evidence. They’ve never learned to think for themselves or find the logical consequences of a particular line of thought. They are completely immune to reason.

          • acidulous

            Is it immunity or willful disregard? Sometimes when your agenda is at stake you don’t want to hear the truth. I think that’s when they scream the loudest because they get it. They just don’t want to.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            “They”. Always a nebulous, collectivist “they”, the people you’re politically correct to.

            *You* don’t want those things. Personally.

          • Sue Smith

            And that’s precisely why the trolls on these pages are screaming: reality is confronting!! Well done everyone.

            But please ignore them; treat them load a road chicane and move on as it merely disrupts intelligent conversation (their aim). Look at the waste of space already!!

          • Leon Wolfeson

            “They”.

            You.

          • Shawn Smith

            When a leftist tries reasoning with me, we’ll see. Mostly, they just point and call names.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            Ah, so you’re a good collectivist, using politically correct bigotry.

          • Shawn Smith

            No, I am merely making an observation about behavior, and yours so far is right in line with the rest: just name-calling.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            Ah, so you’re talking about yourself, and saying I’m like you and the rest of your personalities.

            Well!

          • Grace Ironwood

            I’d like to think so but the left gave up argument some time ago in favour of mob shaming and shunning those who don’t conform to their ever-evolving norms.
            Very effective tactic, basic social primate stuff, no intelligence needed.
            My hope lies in the general tendency of a new generation to contest the hegemony of the previous one. So I wonder if making them more stupid is such a silver lining 🙂

          • acidulous

            Those who are homeschooled or raised by non leftists will be the ones who lead the way. As with the previous generation it will be the few making the changes. That’s why the majority who have been stupefied will be disarmed.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            Ah, so you’ll lead your glorious coup…

          • acidulous

            Hey Leon, you are the reason for article such as this. Totalitarian much?

          • Leon Wolfeson

            No, I don’t go for your policies. As you note this sort of whining is because of leftist thought.

          • acidulous

            Move on. You’re boring me Leon.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            Keep screaming for silence, as I use that boring, boring truth.

          • acidulous

            Screaming? Snoring, Leon.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            And yet your post exists.

          • Terry Field

            You are such a pooafffart Wolfson.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            Terry, no, I won’t move in with you. No matter how many times you ask!

          • Terry Field

            Woolfie you tease!
            You know you want to!!!!!

          • Leon Wolfeson

            No, I have no intention of moving to Monaco.

          • Terry Field

            You would love it wolfie, all those suntanned ladyboys.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            See, you have an interest in those. I don’t. Not everyone is just like you – I know this is a hard concept for you.

            Oh, and you seem to think that your thing for ladyboys should disturb me or something…heh.

          • Grace Ironwood

            The younger generations can often be relied upon to contest the sanctimony and dogmas of their parent’s generation. Imagine the likes of Elton John’s kids.
            We have to put our hopes in that.

          • Common Porpoise

            Elton John has no children of his own.

          • Grace Ironwood

            I understand the pop star has a number of manufactured children & he & Mr Furnish recently had their sperm mingled together in a parody of human conception before impregnating the child’s real mother.

          • Common Porpoise

            Too much information.
            It only gets worse.
            His kind should never be let near children.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            Keep blaming the left for your tactics.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            Keep fighting that evil universal education, eh.

          • acidulous

            People like you are all the encouragement we need! Thanks for the inspiration.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            At least you’re honest about your goals. Because of people like me…that’d be Jews.

          • mightymark

            Funny friends you keep if you are!

          • Leon Wolfeson

            Oh, you think other Jews are funny.

            I, of course, decry extremists of all stripes. You, Islamists…

          • Shawn Smith

            Wow, so you’re trying to claim we’re anti-semitic? Nice. Real decent of ya there. Any evidence of this?

          • Leon Wolfeson

            Your personalities walked right into it.
            Because of your condemnation of “people like me”.

            Perhaps you might want to think for a bit. To use the singular about yourself. To not blanket condemn “people like you”.

          • Shawn Smith

            So, no evidence, no logic, just slander. Thanks.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            Yes, thanks for your post. As you show I was correct, and now you resort to legal threats.

          • LarryInIowa

            The left will always throw up the bigotry argument to attack anyone they don’t like. Evidence is never required as the mere charge proves itself in their feeble minds. For instance, when saying “You People,” and obviously referring to the lefts habit of calling people names rather than employing reason or logic, you can expect them to pull a bigotry charge out of thin air. As if the writer has any knowledge of them other than their inane postings. Typical leftist tactic. But I guess it’s easier than actually defending their morally and intellectually bankrupt philosophy.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            “The left” – Ahh, PC bigotry. As you whine about a fact and try and and prevent discussion.

            Your used the plural, as you try and evade the personal. As you admit you are inane, and claim to be using leftist tactics. As you admit you follow a “morally and intellectually bankrupt philosophy”

          • LarryInIowa

            And you respond with the equivalent of “I know you are but what am I?” Not that I expected any better of you.

          • Deidre Miller

            So they’ll become just like the right, then?

          • Leon Wolfeson

            So, you claim to have magically kept your jops, even though magical marxists had all the jobs. All your personalities hate the kids, right, and blame them for the memorisation culture of the government. And decry the fact they don’t hate people for being dark-skinned, so terrible!

            As you ignore the fact the UK is class-ridden, there is terrible social mobility and your right are rapidly abolishing basic rights. Indeed, those kids at University are will earn less over their lifetimes than if they hadn’t gone. The economy overall will benefit, they won’t. Your policies.

            But hey, the free society you want to bring to a close…

          • http://abriefhistory.org MichaelKennedy

            Well said. I was able to screen some of my youngest daughter’s class misinformation but many parents are at the mercy of idiotic instructors like my daughter’s English composition instruction who spent the “review” hour prior to final exams on a rant about Ronald Reagan and how he was an actor who recited lines written by others.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            So, you’ve made your daughter a victim of your propaganda, much to her detriment. As you blame yourself – you chose to do that rant, after all.

            That’s the issue with home schooling, after all.

          • RicardoRed

            So because there has generally been progresses in certain areas of life and the world, they shouldn’t rile and campaign against current injustices and issues of the time? Yes, maybe some perspective at times is needed (that’s youth – remember it?), but that doesn’t mean they are wrong to take up causes now. Their world view is formed by a myriad of sources and inputs (even parents!) and is far greater than ever before, and certainly far greater than via the singular channel of institutional indoctrination that you insinuate.

          • Grace Ironwood

            I believe in the Zeitgeist.

          • Sue Smith

            “Progress”? That’s very debatable, expect in the medical/scientific/technological areas.

            The ‘singular channel of institutional indoctrination” is the education system – arguably the most powerful agent of all. Both Hitler and Stalin knew all about that. Remember the “Hitler Youth”? And, don’t forget, many of these so-called ideologies are pervasive in the popular culture also. Put those things together and you have a dangerous cocktail which prefers the individual over the society, hatred over love, belief in God over belief in nothing, victimhood instead of empowerment, families which can be anything you want because – well – it’s easier, catastrophe over hope and positivity etc. etc. The left NEVER sees the glass half full.

            I actually think that’s abuse.

          • RicardoRed

            Sorry?!! – you are equating western education to that of totalitarian states?! Oh dear. I think this needs reiteration: we are no longer in a world that allows the singular control of information. The myriad of information sources online are undermining the traditional communication tools of the establishment. Even if i believed you regarding the education system attempting to indoctinate young people with a specific narrow ideology (i don’t), the ability to do so would be utterly undermined by the world young people see via a whole host of consumptive sources. It’s utterly patronising to suggest that they don’t form political opinion from influence outside the education system. You’re just annoyed because they don’t equate to your specific set of values. In fact considering the stuctures of society as shifted right in the last 30 years, with the constant degredation of the post-war social democratic settlement, the left haven’t been doing very well have they in their supposed attempt to indoctrination of generations of young people?

            “the left never see the glass half full” – what you actually mean it’s the left that make most of the leg work to make conditions and society better. Virtually every progressive development in society had been won by the actions and efforts of the left, unlike the inertia or worse the down right hostility to change by the forces of conservatism. The left fight, but the fight because the are hopeful a better future can be acheived. if you want to stick your head in the sand an believe everything is ok, then that’s your right of course. But i for one am glad we have passionate and determined young people fighting against injustice, inequality and repression. They are often fighting the the forces of the economic right which control huge parts of our media – this is the source of hatred, individualism, selfishness and negativity. Pop culture, if you know your history, has often been where the fight against those forces has risen. Don’t conflate that with the crass commercialisation and piggy backing of youth culture by corporate media as the same thing.

          • Sue Smith

            See, this is my point. Your angry tone tells me you’re a victim and it also tells me one of the reasons you’re in your current mood and predicament.

            Who needs State media when government-funded education systems promulgate leftist ideologies!!? And the left hasn’t found any solutions – just a bloated welfare state where people like you STILL complain. I’m sorry for you, but your tutor at university got you into your current predicament by filling you with preposterous Marxist ideas which have a sharp disconnect with reality.

            You obviously live in a country which is like an overcrowded lifeboat. And yet many of you continue to cheer on ‘migrants’.!! That’s just silly.

          • RicardoRed

            I’m not angry, i’m mearly challenging your assertions. You’ve totally failed to counter my points with anything approching an coherent arguement and logic.,

          • Sue Smith

            You’re not angry; just giving a pretty poor impression of somebody who isn’t!!

            Start working on your spelling and punctuation and the rest will all fall into place for you.

          • RicardoRed

            And again, all you can offer in response is patronisation and distraction.
            The usual tactics of those with a failing argument. This makes me happy.

          • CalUKGR

            Great comment, Grace. I work in executive recruitment for a very wide variety of clients and I can tell you that vast swathes of the corporate jungle are now also singing from the illiberal progressive hymn sheet, too. It’s a minefield.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            Yea, must be so hard to follow the law when you’re fundamentally opposed to much of it, and the rest of the first world.

          • Grace Ironwood

            Thanks, yes certainly we now often see elements of the private sector prominently figure, sometimes even leading – Google, the facebook lad – the mob.
            Torches flaming, pitchforks jabbing, stakes at the ready.

          • UKSteve

            From personal experience, I have tried to engage young people – under 25’s mostly – in conversation viva voce, and over the internet.

            They take gross and petulant exception at the first sign of a contrary opinion, and shuffle off in a deeply indignant huff. Absolutely forget any discourse, diatribe, argument, counterpoint – they are simply not equipped.

            To much time playing computer games, I guess.

          • Grace Ironwood

            Yes, I know 🙂 I mean the next generation – who will be brought up subject to all the new dogmas.

            True Believers or not, young people are neverless as aware as anyone of the devastating social shunning and shaming that enforces the new norms . It’s pretty shocking and unsafe to be in a conversation with someone contradicting the doctrine. so the shunning reaction immediately kicks in.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            Ah, a topic you don’t want studied. Right.

            As you blame poor people for being poor, never mind your policies of lowering social mobility. And your children failed their degrees, right, because they were not taught how to learn as kids…entirely and sadly understandable.

          • http://abriefhistory.org MichaelKennedy

            Whose fault is it that the poor are poor ? Geography can be a useful study field in areas like health care and forestry but 600 ?

          • Leon Wolfeson

            So you blame them for being poor. Sigh.

            And you object to a major university’s common module…

          • DameClare

            I feel I must take issue with your disregard towards geography. I am currently working on a bachelor’s degree with a concentration/certificate in geographic information systems for employment as a GIS analyst. According to the Occupational Outlook Handbook published by the U.S. Department of Labor, the median pay for geographers is $74,000 a year. I’ve seen salaries quoted for senior GIS analysts up to $118,000 yearly. While I clearly will not get rich, it’s a much more lucrative field than any I could enter with an arts degree.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            So. you have no idea about arts fields like, oh, 3d artist.

          • Sri Krishna Bhagawan

            no wonder people dont know how a map looks like !!

          • Leon Wolfeson

            Yes, smashing it is your priority. Right.

          • Maureen Fisher

            I remember as a joke at Uni, a few friends posted spoof left sounding posters up on walls making ridiculous leftist demands of the University and one of the friends said “don’t forget to put spelling mistakes in as most lefties can’t spell!”

          • Leon Wolfeson

            So, your friends were idiots at Universities, and spewed bigotry in the process. That’s not funny, that’s just sad.

          • UKSteve

            From my experience, most Lefties can’t even read.

          • RicardoRed

            Oh the fear – that youth may develop differing options to you. Well you know what? It happens with almost every new generation. Maybe, if the current leaders in power weren’t so dismissive of young people, and didn’t screw them over every time a decision has to be made where money and priorities are to be focused, they might not be so angry and willing to look for new ideas and answers outside the current orthodoxy that seems to perpetually damn their social mobility and future prospects.

          • Sue Smith

            “Screw them over”? More victimology.

          • RicardoRed

            What are you banging on about? So people should’t fight for their rights? People shouldn’t stand up for themselves?
            Maybe everything is just amazing in Australia for young people, but in Britain young people’s futures are being undermined. I’m not a fan of Vice much, but the link below is a great summery of why young people rightly feel they are are not getting a fair deal in Britian (all the while the richest in society havent had to sacrifice a thing). And you wonder why young people may feel vistimised? http://www.vice.com/en_uk/read/coalition-war-on-the-young-ben-beach-399

          • artistresearcher

            Academia is the most important battleground? Bollocks. Im a PhD student and even I don’t agree with that. The battleground is taking place in the media with all the constant antiwelfare programmes and rightwing attacks on the poor. While you sit enjoying a middle class life in academia people are suffering and the Tories are not being held to account. PS I’m working class and its a miracle I ended up being a PhD student given the fact that academia is dominated by the middle classes.

          • Grace Ironwood

            I was interested to read your perspective. I agree.that the media, including the echo-chamber politics in the new media, are the most consequential space of cultural politics for society.

            But all those gentle progressives on the telly had their viewpoint formed somewhere. 🙂

          • Sue Smith

            Spot on.

          • NGPM

            “They will learn to hide their snarling and resentful ideology behind the
            mask of adult sobriety, just as the Blair generation did.”

            I’m not so sure about this. The Blair generation was different. What is coming out of uni these days, especially in North America but also across the Commonwealth, is a bunch of self-absorbed ninnies trained to hunt for and whine about “microaggressions” against “persecuted” races, classes, sexes and sexual orientation. They will cause a great deal of mischief, but the uselessness of world leaders who have nothing better to do than to snap selfies will soon manifest itself.

            The real problem is that in the face of this migrant invasion no competent manager can be found and total chaos is sown everywhere. All the parodic, disgusting, corrupt ineptness we have mocked of Third World politics will then be upon us, and will make the nastinesses of our own politicians over the last century look like the Second Coming by comparison.

          • global city

            Yes, the ultimate of Augean stables.

          • Minsky

            It’s not the humanities students that destroyed our industrial base, bloated the debt-happy banking sector to over 20% of the national economy by reversing the stabilization measures put in place after the Great Depression–on the recommendations of conservative politicians–and then built giant, unsustainable debt ponzi schemes whose implosion caused a second Great Depression. That would be your ‘movers and shakers’ in finance, egged on by conservative neoliberal ideology.

            When students in the humanities mortgage away the prosperity created by the greatest industrial boom in history for short-term personal gain and produce a Great Depression, then you may have a legitimate gripe. Until then it’s pretty clear you’re projecting.

          • Sue Smith

            You have learned your lessons well by repeating, rote, what your lecturers have told you. Thinking not required!!

            The system isn’t perfect: I didn’t say that. What I do say is that constant carping about how bad it is still doesn’t recognize the fact that the west lives a hell of a lot better life than developing and 3rd world countries – thanks to the capitalism you are busy criticizing.

            Your alternative, Bolshevism and Communism, based loosely on Marx, was the worst social experiment in the history of the world – culminating in Chernobyl.

            Compare that to your criticisms and you’ll be found wanting.

          • Minsky

            Lol, yes of course, pointing out the utter failure of finance capitalism and the superiority of industrial capitalism–which, again, the neoliberals sold down the river–is the same thing as embracing Marxism. Because Marx sooo admired industrial capitalism. In other news, one plus one equals three.

            The wealth of the West was built on industrial innovation and growth. Nations like the U.S., Australia and the UK grew powerful off of the flourishing of industry–by building things, be it cars, space shuttles, airplanes, whatever. They didn’t grow rich off of the flourishing of debt. The greatest generation, who lived through the Great Depression, understood this. But their spoiled children, the baby boomers–today’s conservatives being the most spoiled of all–wanted short-term gains for themselves at the expense of long-term prosperity. So they threw industrial capitalism out the window, unchained the bankers, and went on a 30-year debt binge that gave rise to vampire squid ‘too big to fail banks’ and blew up in their face, all to bring us the utter failure that is neoliberal finance capitalism. Their children going to university are merely waking up to the obvious: that because of the petulant selfishness and short-sightedness of their parents’ generation nations that once built things and added to the wealth of the world now produce nothing but debt, which leeches off the wealth of others.

            But don’t worry, they probably understand that it’s too hard for their parents to take a long look in the mirror and learn from their mistakes, and easier to just shift the blame onto the kids and call them Marxists.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            So, you have a monodimensional view.

            Your propaganda, vs Marx. Never mind anything else. Nope, your Capitalism must roll on, as you decry the 99%’s better life – you want that cash fro yourself.

          • RicardoRed

            Sorry, how did you get to bolshevism and communism? There’s a massive distance between an active social democratic society, and communism! This is the usual disingenuous choice the right threaten we have to make. The usual nonsense spouted by establishment media.

            Understanding the failures of a system doesn’t mean people want some revolutionary change to communism. it’s simply offering truthful acknowledgement of the limitations of capitalism, and managing it best for society.

            Do remember by the way the wealth was accumulated by 1st world nations during imperialism which has given it the advantages it still enjoys today. Africa has perpetually been held back by colonialism both in its imperial form and the economic impositions forced on it by Western economic institutions post colonialism. 1st world nations have entrenched and widened economic competitive disparity with third world nations by the global economic institutions it set up. Often capitalism, the terms of which have been set by 1st world nations for their advantage, has held back nations. Again, this is not to say capitalism per se is wrong, but the method and deregulated implementation is.

            A final point. You seem keen on repeating to people who have differing opinion and thought, that they have somehow been uncritical of what they have consumed that forms their opinion. This is rather ironic considering your viewpoint chime with the most orthodoxy of political/economic thought of our time, and it is others who offer critical appraisal. I could easily say it is you that is the parrot.

          • Jon S

            “Never educate the people beyond what they can usefully do with that education. Few revolutions, if any, have ever succeeded without an educated, under-utilized (middle) class. That’s what worries me.”

            So what, teach them to work in the mill, but if they dare learn to read they’ll get ‘ideas’? Can’t let the dirty plebeians start thinking beyond their station.

          • Sue Smith

            That’s your projection, of course. Unable to find a middle way and mired in ideology you make yourself miserable.

            I talk about people being able to work in areas which JUSTIFY all the energy they’ve put into their degrees. When this is unfulfilled it merely tells them that their Marxist tutors were right all along – not that they themselves made the wrong career/degree choice.

            If you had worked harder at analysis of anything but finding a wolf under the bed you would have recognized the argument.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            Ah, there are degrees in arts and humanities, unacceptable for you. As you attack the QAA, etc – never mind those facts and accreditation!

            As you hunt magical Marxists. As you deny the effects the Tories have caused, and as you panic about the middle class support for Corbyn, against your revolution.

            As you blame the Other, of course. You’re the one supporting the revolution, the coup, against British values here!

          • aspeckofboggart

            Nailed it.

          • Arbite

            “Never educate the people beyond what they can usefully do with that
            education. Few revolutions, if any, have ever succeeded without an
            educated, under-utilized (middle) class. That’s what worries me.”

            So only train people to take part in existing economic cycles while keeping their heads down?

          • Sue Smith

            Educate people with a blend of humanities subjects and vocational training to ensure they are skilled to participate in the ever-changing labour market and its demands.

            But sending thousands though university on a humanities type degree when they could have been working on a utilitarian trade or other such occupation doesn’t make any sense. We have over-worked the system of encouraging people into university only for them to find there is a brick wall at the end of it. Not enough emphasis is placed on trades and service industries in Australia and we have shortages on the former to the extent that we employ overseas labour. Meanwhile, our educated humanities students work at McDonalds or don’t work at all. The resentment finds its voice in any increasingly shrill Left.

            This makes no sense to me at all.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            Ah, so make sure British people can’t get decent, internationally-recognised qualifications. Smash the University sector, and blame the students for your right wing economics.

            You want more minimum wage factory jobs, I understand, as you blame your senseless bigotry on the left.

          • UKSteve

            O levels and A levels served perfectly well until the moronic and crypto-Marxist teaching unions started f***ing about with them.

            Then they became GCSE’s and half of the pupils got “A'”s in Blair’s New World (all must have prizes), and as Dr. David Starkey said on Question Time, Cambridge Uni had to introduce an extra year to its science degrees just to bring their maths up to scratch.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            Ah yes, the magical Marxists in your Brain, Mr. Moron.

            As you show you don’t have a clue about the qualifications, and as you ignore the fact that Universities are looking to add an extra year because of you and your Govian insistence that only memorisation may be taught.

          • UKSteve

            “Nurse, the screens!”

            Time for your meds, I think.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            Ah yes, “UR MAD, JEW”

            As you’d poison me. Right.

          • Effluent

            No doubt most of them will pursue careers in the teaching professions, armed with their newly minted arts “degrees”.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            So, you have a problem with the UK University system, and no idea about teacher numbers. Or what say a 3d artist can expect to make.

          • Effluent

            I am sure that you are smart enough to realise that wasn’t the point of my post.
            Certainly, there are many arts graduates who do make valuable contributions, but there are equally a great many low-calorie arts courses which turn out graduates with no marketable or useful skills, and a finely developed sense of grievance and entitlement.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            Ah, so your point is just that you hate Universities, and have no idea about the UK University system.

            Fortunately, Unistats show you’re talking rubbish, Mr. Lite Calories.

          • Effluent

            You’re very talented at reading hidden meanings into my posts. Just a pity that they are figments of your imagination.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            So you claim your posts are not yours, they’re a figment of my imagination. Well, you can stop posting then, if you’re part of me.

          • UKSteve

            Your posts show that you know nothing about anything – par for the course for a troll.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            That’s right, you keep screaming that hate because I’m Jewish, Mr. Troll, your post is indeed on par for your chosen profession.

          • UKSteve

            No; I don’t care which imaginary SkyDaddy you choose – completely irrelevant to me. But it is clearly a loathsome burden to you. Which probably accounts for your pathetic trollery.

            Leave it with you.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            Except your repeated Jewhate, right. As you then prove that.
            As you scream Jews must be silent, blah blah.

          • Sue Smith

            …when I could have taught them in 60 seconds to say, “will that be fries with that today?”

          • RicardoRed

            Yet again, without irony considering the supposed “moral high ground” the left is meant to have exclusivity on, left wing ideology and thought is patronised as something that must be indoctrinated within education. “Cultural marxism”, which is what you are referring to, is a load of self serving cr&p to explain away why people have a different set of opinions to that of the right. Surely people can’t have left wing views – for they are against the natural superiority of conservatism – thus indoctrination of values via powerful institutions (such as higher education) must be the reason. Your views are just another variant of this old tripe. Many thoughtful, intelligent and successful people have left wing views. Maybe i should point to research that shows those with right wing views, tend to have a lower IQ? I mean, at least that has some scientific method applied to the research and its conclusions that i can base my wild statement on.

          • Sue Smith

            Hilarious!! Priceless, actually.

          • RicardoRed

            Your inability to respond to the arguement is telling. No surprise.

          • artistresearcher

            Your post is very disturbing. Left wing media? Where is it Id like to know. If we really did have a left wing media Corbyn would not be getting so viciously attacked.

          • Terry Field

            so close these shitty little centres of anti-democratic subversion down – get some balls!

          • Leon Wolfeson

            Ah, yes, smash the Universities so you get more minimum wage workers.

          • UKSteve

            We have something very similar here – a perfectly legitimate political party – UKIP – has been BANNED (free speech, anyone?) from virtually all university campuses by Student Unions. That many UK universities with politics departments are part-funded by the vile Jean Monnet Centre, can be no coincidence.

            Monnet was “the chief architect” of the EU – which in essence, betrays itself as having collectivist / Marxist principles.

          • Sue Smith

            Thank you for providing more incontrovertible evidence.

          • Kieron Russell

            The divvies get to do ‘Gender Studies’ – the most useless education money can buy. I know they have it bad in the states – it’s not in the UK yet. Keep ’em peeled.

        • Jaria1

          Just whats the BBCs game?
          Their guest on Question time is that John McDonell , Yes the one who wants the IRA to have bravery awards for dressing up as civilians and shooting our boys wearing uniforms.
          The mans sitting their smirking away and then lecturing us on how his version of Labour is more open and fair!
          Just couldnt watch it, but then hes got nothing to worry about look at what Muslim aterrorists do knowing they have nothing to worry about from our police.
          Wonder who the BBC will invite next week that big John creep. He thinks British soldiers are fair game

          • mrs1234

            I can only imagine what their game is but the views of John McDonell are very disturbing to many people. I cannot stand watching Question Time – smug Dimbleby was enough to wind me up never mind some of his guests 🙂 I gave up on the telly a while ago now. Reading, netflix and blinkbox are great!

          • Jaria1

            Ive given up on it but it is the first edition in a new series but as you say nothing has changed.

          • mightymark

            Am I the only person to notice that Dimbleby only ever interrupts non leftists while the leftists – McDonell tonight especially – are given carte blanche to bore with their sanctimonious blah?

          • PaD

            serial interrupting…its a well known tactic taught on Common Purpose ‘leadership courses’

          • Jaria1

            I dont think I would last out the full interview if I was being constantly interupted.
            I get the impression that there are a list of questions whose answers are not listened to and the next question is read out before the first answer has been given
            Im concious of the fact that the guest must be stopped from wandering off subject and give a party political broadcast and im not referring to those instances. C4 News must rank amongst the worst interuptors. Ive been married for too long to be sexist but I have the impression that females in discussion programmes are the worst offenders
            I think seasoned politicians when interupted will continue what they were saying before the interuption. Got to admit I really do approve when I see that happen

          • Leon Wolfeson

            Yes, “don’t do it”. Wow!

          • Jaria1

            I was surprised to see Dimbleby still doing the job. Frankly hes a bit too old and as you say certainly is favouring the left and interupting Tories.
            A sure sign that he wants to keep his job with the BBC.
            One of his predecessors wrote about these talking heads say something completely different in the green room than they do when live on TV

          • Leon Wolfeson

            So ageism as well.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            So, you “notice” non-existent…

          • UKSteve

            No, it’s been happening for decades, and complaints – especially about the ghastly, rigged,QT – are legion.

          • Walt

            Smirking is indeed one of their revealing signs. If they knew how rather close their smirks are to idiot grins…

        • vieuxceps2

          I too worry about the indoctrination of our children through lefty educationalists. They are clever at infiltrating institutions and quietly guiding their direction. NHS, BBC and Universities are under their influence,whilst in Local Government they lose no opportunity to promote their leftwing agendas. Sometimes I feel they take jobs and official posts simply to push their politics.

          • PaD

            Agree.
            Rotherham is the culmination

          • Leon Wolfeson

            You keep decrying universal education, hating on the NHS and Universities…

          • vieuxceps2

            I do not decry education,the health service or universities .I am greatly in favour of all of them. What i do deplore is the misuse of them by lefties to further their political ends.This to a large degree explains why they are dysfunctional.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            So your post does not exist. But then you do you do decry them, and call them “dysfunctional” – that is, the 99% can access them….oh, right.

          • vieuxceps2

            you seem to be a good example of our school and/or our university system,even perhaps our health service. Your limited power of expression and lack of logic indicate that I am wasting my time .I shall write no more.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            Run away, running dog, as you lash out at Universal education and the Universities, oh, and the NHS. As you cry because I stick to the facts.

          • ExiledOnMainStreet

            Clearly, whatever education you received did you no good, as you are ignorant and nasty – and also apparently unemployed, since you spend much time here beclowning yourself.

            You prove Cohen’s point with each word you write, but are too thick and brainwashed to realize it.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            That’s right, you keep decrying education, and demanding I be like you, and have your lack of a job, etc. – that saying anything other than the unthinking agreement you demand excuses your torrent of abuse, as you maunder on about your other usernames and how you’ve brainwashed me.

            Meanwhile, fight on against Britain and it’s institutions.

        • Leon Wolfeson

          keep blaming the left for your ideology. The left you have no clue about, as you object to universal education and the entire University system.

          As you ignore what Corbyn is actually doing – decentralising power in Labour, so the members have a party which represents them,

          Unacceptable to an elitist like you, I know.

        • artistresearcher

          Drip fed? If only. Comprehensives don’t teach pupils anything about politics hence why voting turnouts are so low. The worrying thing is that the neoliberal world view that the free market, privatisation and self interest matters more than people is the worldview – hence your post.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            Erm? Excuse me, Neoliberalism is about Capitalism, which is a leech on the market.

          • mrs1234

            Not sure why you leap to the conclusion that I am a “neoliberal”.
            My post was in support of Nick Cohen and his reason for turning away from the Left – his views on it closely reflect my own. As for education, I went to state school and taught in state school. Some years ago I returned to university – I know something about what I am talking about even if you do not agree with me. Our experiences may be different and that is fine. I am not going to jump on you and try and stick you with some kind of label.
            You say that comprehensives do not teach anything about politics – I would dispute that. However pupils are rarely taught to to reflect, weigh up different points of view and form their own opinions and then have the strength to stand by them should they go against the general consensus of what is ‘correct.’ Education has become bland. We used to have debating when I was at school but that is rarely seen these days. Now people tend not to listen and resort to name calling or labelling if someone merely has a point of view out of line with their own.

          • artistresearcher

            Mrs1234 you obviously went to a much better state school than I did. Are you from Britain? I am and as far as I am aware politics is not part of the national curriculum. I wasn’t taught about politics in the rough comprehensive I attended. I actually learn’t more about politics through the research I did in art. I presumed you were a neoliberal as you are anti left and anti Corbyn. Apologies if you are not. Even the press on the so called left in Britain have shown them self up as wanting to protect the neoliberal status quo: http://www.counterpunch.org/2015/09/21/red-neoliberals-how-corbyns-victory-unmasked-britains-guardian/

          • mrs1234

            Thank you for your reply. I am English, I am from the north west. Where I grew up was demolished in a so-called slum clearance project.
            In the school I went to politics was never taught but the ability to think for oneself, question and debate was. People were allowed to differ in opinion – in fact it was encouraged. But if you went against the consensus you had to be able to argue convincingly not just rant. Different points of view were respected. How things have changed. My younger brothers and sisters fared worse than me and a couple went through enormous comprehensives unnoticed and without ever reading a book whereas although my dad left school at 13 he had a much wider world knowledge than the majority of 13 years olds I have come across, had beautiful handwriting and was able to sustain an argument over several paragraphs of writing. (some exercise books exist to this day)He could express himself well. Then
            poor did not necessarily mean rough nor did it mean you were a victim and really it should not mean that today. I believe that the victim narrative is really corrosive.
            I am allowed to dislike Corbyn without being neoliberal or whatever. I don’t care what some reporter is saying in order to make those who dissent look like they are guilty of some heinous heresy. That in itself is very disturbing.

          • artistresearcher

            Thanks for your reply. Did you attend a grammar school by any chance? My uncle went to a grammar school but nowadays you have to pay to be tutored as the tests are so complicated. I think back in the 1970s the tests genuinely did measure ability rather than just the ability to learn by rote as my uncle was not tutored to pass. I used the word rough about my school because it was rough – a boy was stabbed by another boy in the middle of the school day and also because I didn’t fit in as I was not street wise enough. I didn’t intend the term ‘rough’ to be shorthand for poor.

            I didn’t think the views of the left are being respected on this page – they are being ridiculed as if there is only one type of person on the left and that usually involves the stereotype of hysterical/naive/donkey jackets wearers etc. There is definitely a superior, sneering, smug tone to many of the posts, you can’t deny that.

          • mrs1234

            Yes there is but then again you get the same in reverse on the Guardian comment sections. Things have got too partisan, polarised and nasty for my liking and it does not bode well.

            Yes, it was a type of grammar, it was a ‘high’ school. Not everyone was posh – there were quite a few from my type of background and also some who were quite ‘rough’ in their attitude but then bad behaviour was not quite the norm as it is now. I did the 11+ back when it was simply like an IQ test or something similar. There was no preparation for it. I was the first of my brothers and sisters to pass it and then it was scrapped. My elder brother didn’t pass but there was another chance at 12 and he then went to a technical college and got a really good education and ended up with an MSc. I understood the reasoning for taking away grammars but unfortunately what replaced them did not improve opportunities for all it simply reduced them because of well intentioned but ill-thought out and ultimately patronising policies. Somehow excellence and aspiration came to seem like dirty words.
            Sorry you had such a horrible time.
            I think you are right, things have got quite lot rougher in poor areas but that is not necessarily how it has to be. Where I went to primary school now looks completely different -very run down, uncared for and sad as does where I first started teaching. There is no lively atmosphere on the streets or in the shops – it really is depressed in more ways than one. Frank Field speaks very well on the subject of poverty – not only material but of aspiration and hope. Unfortunately, Tony Blair didn’t want to listen to this man of great experience. In politics there have been many missed opportunities and that is very sad.

      • Tatterdemalian Threadbare

        No. Even the smartest person can be conned, especially by con artists that lie convincingly about specific details that their marks literally could not know in advance. Solyndra used false data gathered during experiments that had never before been performed and were too expensive to quickly replicate to sell the pipe dream of solar energy to the Obama Administration, for example.

        The difference is that today, in the name of replacing blind justice with “social justice,” liberals allow con artists who tell them what they want to hear off the hook for any fraud they commit, even if thousands die from the snake oil they sell, simply because “they had good intentions.” The con artists, ever quick to take advantage of ducks that promise to never seek retribution no matter how many times they are plucked, are now gleefully cornering the market on feathers and down.

      • jackcade

        People are motivated by their view of morality.

        The Left support self-sacrifice – Ayn Rand on the other hand…

        https://www.aynrand.org/novels/virtue-of-selfishness

        • Sue Smith

          I submit that the Left doesn’t hold values, just ‘positions on issues’.

          Ayn Rand was a realist, not a pie-in-the-sky fantasist. Actually, what would be really good is some position halfway between the two but, ain’t goooona happen.

      • MrJest

        I’ve long held that one cannot be a Leftist unless one is congenitally stupid, woefully ignorant, or evil.

      • Liberanos

        His political choices may not chime with yours, but I’m rather surprised at your view that Mr Cohen lacks intelligence.

      • RicardoRed

        Thanks for highlighting how the condescension of others views exists on both sides of the political spectrum.

        • Sue Smith

          You’re more than welcome!!

      • Richard Baranov

        It is, I think, a matter of emotional intelligence. A disconnect between what the consequences are of Socialism in the real world as against theory. I have met socialists so divorced from the reality that they would actually defend Pol Pot or the Chinese in Tibet, whilst, at the same time, appearing to be perfectly nice, decent, individuals. Psychologically speaking socialism appears to be based on hatred and greed of the other. Whilst socialism may not attract people on that basis, the fact that it is what it is and certain people find Socialism good indicates to me a maladjustment of some sort and, frankly, I have often found that to be the case. Try talking to an apparently very nice Chinese functionary who then tells you quite coolly that a million dead Tibetans was just a minor blimp on the road to a glorious socialist future for Tibet. Creepy and sinister aren’t the words for it.

        • Sue Smith

          Your comments are apposite!! And the previous poster’s claim that people from the Left have higher IQs (be very afraid of their eugenic approach!) all advocate “equality” based on the fact all people are born equal. Priceless.

          Really, these deluded individuals should be writing for the Comedy Channel!! Oh, wait…..

          I used to think like you – once – that lefties with hard and fast ideologies were decent and otherwise good people, but I’ve changed. They bore me rigid and I stay clear of their carping, lecturing, hectoring. Same old same old. I steer clear of political discussions and if I get so much as a whiff I run because I know ‘the type’ I’m up against – usually humourless, resentful, envious and – above all – censorious.

          I was at a music lecture last week and, on cue, came the claims of social equality, victimhood and discrimination. I thought, “just how much more boring is this going to get?”

          Please, let’s hear about the glass half full – about the folks who got up and out of their humble beginnings and made good because they were intelligent and innovative and knew what they had to do. But, no, it doesn’t suit the ideology.

          Life is just too short.

    • porcelaincheekbones

      At least he’s brave enough to admit his disillusion.

      • Ed O’Meara

        What’s brave about a pay rise?

    • Gunnar Thalweg

      Yep. Even now, he’s still apologetic.

    • Rupert Rivett

      Some people though never see the wood for the trees and carry on as long as those trees are falling on others and not them. They keep moving on blinked to the carnage around them. There is going to be a lot of carnage soon the ticking bomb of interest rate rises is coming. Watch the middle classes lurch to the left when blinkers are off.

    • http://www.pearshapedcomedy.com Anthony Miller

      I don’t vote Labour out of stupidity. I vote for them because the Tories don’t represent people like me. You might think Corbyn is a catastrophy and he indeed is believing in such nonsense as MMT but in a two and a half party system that’s about all there is. While the Labour party seems to have gone down the road of giving absolutely everyone a say even if they’ve never contributed financially to the party and have never canvassed and also support other parties … there seems no point in joining the Conservatives because it’s got a completely top down control mechanism. Internal democracy is almost completely absent from the Tory party. Our local Tory MP was selected by a committee of probably only 12 people. Since I’ve lived in Croydon we’ve had the Largest expenses spender in the 2005 parliament who was thrown out for his spending on stamps amongst other things, a Conservative who was in endless legal dispute with both his wives and had the whip withdrawn, and a parachuted in ex-Ashcroft aid who spends his days petitioning his own government on fake issues and trying to find ever smaller fonts with which to write the word Conservative on their electoral literature. If you ask me there has only ever been one sensible political party …the SDP… the problem was that at its zenith its membership entirely consisted of David Owen alone. Corbyn’s policies would be a disaster if implemented – particularly “the people’s QE” – but then so were those of Lawson, Lamont and Major… the problem in my view is the Tom Watsons of the world. The people who’ve been in the same party for ever and would stay there if its policies including the compulsory feeding of cheese to the lactose intolerant. It may be that by the strengh of our common endeavour we achieve more together than we do alone but only if you don’t do anything stupid. It always amused me how many socialist emblems involve fists waving in the air… but not brains.

      • Mc

        When is your book being published?

        • http://www.pearshapedcomedy.com Anthony Miller

          Internal Labour politics isn’t interesting enough to make a whole book from … http://www.pearshapedcomedy.com/Leader.html

          • Mc

            Sorry, I’ve never found the Left to be sufficiently riveting to wade through a Leftist’s verbal mastication.

          • http://www.pearshapedcomedy.com Anthony Miller

            Yet you read this article

          • Mc

            Mr Cohen is to the point and writes coherently, even if I don’t always agree with him. Your linked article appeared within the first sentence to be the ramblings of a self-absorbed amateur

          • http://www.pearshapedcomedy.com Anthony Miller

            Fair point but I’m not pretending to be professional…. and also that’s just how most political meetings are. Long, boring and mildly nonsensical. I do have a book coming out but it’s fiction – real life with the boring bits cut out. I like to feel that my blog real life with the boring bits left in. That’s the great thing about blogs – no editors. You can really bore people. Anyway, you watch Andy Burnham speak and try to make it interesting.

    • Cranios

      And then once they finally figure it out, people think they are geniuses.

    • hillary1992

      The Left attacks White People and White Institutions? GO FORWARD COMRADE! HASTA LA VICTORIA!

      The Left attacks Jewish or Israeli interests? ANTI-SEMITE! I’M DONE WITH THE LEFT! RACISTS!!

      Don’t forget this is the same Nick Cohen who berated Europeans a week ago on The Guardian for not accepting more “refugees”. WHY DOESN’T ISRAEL
      RECEIVE MORE REFUGEES?! If Israel can defend its interests why can’t Europe and the rest of the world?

    • UKSteve

      Nicely put. I arrived at this conclusion after witnessing the calamitous governments of Wilson / Callaghan in the 1970’s – no wonder MI5 were bugging Harold – many key figures in the Labour movement were in Moscow’s full-time pay.

      I’ve no idea how anyone with a functioning brain can even consider voting Labour after the 1970’s, Blair’s immigration “diversity” zeal, invading Iraq and selling half our gold reserves at an all-time low price.

      http://www.spectator.co.uk/features/5504183/reaching-through-the-iron-curtain/

      • Mc

        I suspect it’s a combination of things, including wanting to wield power over others (the ends of creating a fair world justifying the means), impaired logic, grievance/jealousy, sense of identity, and naivety on all levels (especially about human nature, power and how an economy functions).

  • Mc

    “Swimming against a strong tide is exhausting,’ he sighed recently.”

    Particularly if you’re verbally w***ing at the same time as trying to swim

  • Sue Smith

    You’ve obviously been asleep on the job for a long time: the left has been like this for decades.

  • http://cafe.themarker.com/user/235356/ Shahar Luft

    ‘The left’ as described here was always counter-Enlightenment. It’s nothing new. Marxism was endorsed, not for its unquestioned brilliance or its sincerely humanitarian bent, but because it provided a sort of highbrow conspiracy theory: the electorates are not really democratic because someone else pulls the strings. Now why would the highbrows need a conspiracy theory? Because they couldn’t bear the fall from clerical status that the Reformation and the Enlightenment brought about. Democracy handed power to the unwashed masses, with their strange accents. It established the sovereign state as a final refutation of the medieval Church-Empire nexus. It made the elite politically redundant. Since then, the ‘humanistic’ elites have been fighting back, first through unabashed clericalism, but then through the more sophisticated tools of which Marxism is an example, which pretend to accept the Enlightenment while effectively dumping democracy, representation and sovereignty. This is how the dislike of patriotism and the vogue for the violently exotic come about. They are attempts to make the masses ashamed of their democratic power. The elites would rail against ‘nationalism’ and ‘tribalism’, but what they are really against is democracy.

    • Sue Smith

      You’re really onto something here!! Thank you for an astonishingly intelligent insight. It makes absolute sense.

      • http://cafe.themarker.com/user/235356/ Shahar Luft

        Thanks.

        • Linda Quinn

          It does make sense. Do you think that Corbyn is actively conscious of this, and is ‘counter enlightenment’, or just naive?

          • http://cafe.themarker.com/user/235356/ Shahar Luft

            He’s a politician, so I’m not sure that intellectual clarity is at all a criterion he can me measured by. However, I think that most of those leftists are profoundly good people. Tertiary education has conditioned them in a certain way, and they have trouble seeing past it. So it’s a kind of acquired stupidity more than anything else.

            Caveat: we are all only partially aware of our motivations (one of the places where Marx was correct).

          • Linda Quinn

            Well I suppose our education conditions us in a certain way, however we come by it, and in many respects clarifying and challenging our acquired stupidities on a personal level is a process we all have to go through. I think that’s the potential that this current opportunity for debate offers, if we take it. Left and Right, I’ve heard some pretty good reasoned arguments from a range of political positions, and yours was one of the most interesting. Thank you. It seems crucial to try and define and understand our political persuasions, and the implications for the world we live in – your post really gave me something to think about.

          • E.I.Cronin

            Linda I don’t tune in to the Socialist/Marxist media very often but on the odd occasion I do am amazed how open they are in rejecting fundamental Enlightenment principles. The editor at Crikey wrote that Freedom of Speech is a ‘lesser virtue” that should be subordinate to speech that considers the feelings of ethnic minorities. I have never heard Corbyn’s fellow travellers voicing concern or even raising the issue of Equality before the Law and Separation of Church and State as any criticism of Islam (Christianity receives vigorous, negative criticism) is regarded as the worst of racist thought crimes. The fact Sharia destroys both principles means very little to them. They’re consciously Post-Enlightenment.

          • Linda Quinn

            I’ve been looking – but I couldn’t find that article in ‘Crikey’ – if you know where it is can you send a link?

          • E.I.Cronin

            I came across that comment while hunting around Crikey articles for a quote by Race Discrimination Commissioner on 18C. I didn’t keep the link but the comment stuck in my mind. A search for Free Speech and 18C brings up 35+ articles, many written by Guy Rundle and Bernard Keane – reading either author or that much of any Crikey writer’s self-loathing makes me feel sick. Sorry Linda, you’ll have to take my word for it.

            Crikey’s bitterly Anglophobic editorial stance consistently evades any analysis of the cultural, legal and security threat our growing Muslim population poses. Instead they attack any politician or media commentator (Abbott; Brandis; Bolt; Blair; Devine; Lambie) that raises the issue of Sharia and it’s implications for divorce and family law; inheritance law; child marriage etc. I have never heard Crikey or other leftist media such as Fairfax examine these issues critically (apart from Paul Sheehan, but he’s basically a lone conservative). So I stand by my comments on the hard Left being post-Enlightenment.

          • E.I.Cronin

            ps Linda I just remembered a report by Civitas on Sharia Law or One Law for All. The implications for the principle of equality before the law, especially for women, is pretty disturbing. It’s in a British context too (I’m Australian). Am happy to say I’ve got the link for that:

            http://www.civitas.org.uk/pdf/ShariaLawOrOneLawForAll.pdf

    • Asphodel

      I think the massively unequal distribution of wealth as power through a rigged financial system is a far more sophisticated tool to re-establish an undemocratic class of ‘elites’ and deprive the masses of their democratic power than a vague, malleable and often hazy political ideology wouldn’t you say?

      Ironic how you cite marxism as an active conspiracy and then use it reactively to push your own political point…. Which sort of reinforces what I said about it’s hazy and malleable nature.

      • http://cafe.themarker.com/user/235356/ Shahar Luft

        If you’d care to read my comment above again, I think that you’d notice that I don’t attack Marxism as a system of thought or doubt Marx’s own motivation. What I do refer to is the reasons for which Marxism was endorsed as an ideology; if you want, the class-interests behind it.

        And we actually are talking about a class in the sense of wealth distribution. Media figures, NGO executives and academics are not ‘working class’ in any sense. They live off other people’s productive work: in fact, they are exploiters.

        Moreover, the ‘rigged financial system’ you refer to is interested in the same erosion of national boundaries, the same cross-border mobilization (and proletarization) of human resources, and the same downgrading of the representation mechanism as the apparently ‘socialist’ clericals. In fact, the second serve the first. You think that Corbyn is Murdoch’s enemy? Think again.

        • Gergiev

          Yes, the latter day “Theoretical Marxists” and “NeoConservatives” are really working from the same post-modernist agenda, to break down the family and the nation state by any means possible.

          • NorthernFirst

            Indeed. The end result being whether you vote lab or tory what you’ll end up with is political correctness and neoliberalism.

            Which is just how the bilderbergers want it.

        • jhp151

          All forms of government or economy succeed with perfect people. Marxism, like other forms of central control, fails because it cannot deal with the actual nature of man.

        • aspeckofboggart

          (They live off other people’s productive work…….they’re exploiters.)
          Know the old joke (Churchill?)? Capitalism means man exploits man. Communism: vice versa.

    • St Martyr

      Interesting.

    • Martin Keegan

      Great comment – have you got a blog/website?

      • GraveDave

        Yes, I wonder which one he lifted it from?

    • Malcolm Knott

      I am not sure where the Roundheads fit into this theory but they were also iconoclasts, of course, smashing up ancient monuments.

    • TC

      Fantastic comment!

    • Ed O’Meara

      Fantastically interesting tosh.

    • Slavosaur

      Well I don’t think unqualified democracy does have a successful claim to moral priority. Look at the ancient Greek demos. Human rights norms must necessarily stand in the way of the will of the mob. As for this talk about immigration, you’re free to elect an anti-immigration party. See what it does for your household bills when we have to pay the unwashed English £silly money an hour to get out of bed in the morning. Better still, see what your anti-immigrant vote actually achieves. Nothing: because we do indeed have popular sovereignty and most of us aren’t anti-immigrant. How d’you like them democratic apples.

  • bombaybadboy

    Well done Nick, and come on in, over to the right. The water’s lovely.

    • Sue Smith

      It’s not called “right” for nothing!!!

  • misomiso

    Great article. Must have been hard to write.

    All you need to do is vote to leave the EU in the referendum and you will finally be one of us.

    Incredibly ironic overall, as there is actually quite a strong case for Left Wing Economics across Europe given the catastrophe of the Euro. Such a shame they are now all ruled by hate.

  • Dan O’Connor

    All is not as simple as it seems .
    Ironically, Communism protected Eastern and Central Europe from a far worse rotting of the soul than Communism –Americanism and Western Liberalism.
    ” Communism rots the body –Liberalism rots the soul. ”

    Orban’s defiance;

    http://www.radixjournal.com/journal/2015/9/15/orbans-defiance

    • UnhygienixTheFishmonger

      Rubbish. Communism could not rot the soul because Communism had no soul.
      We are not talking about Utopias – we are talking about the least worst alternatives. Liberalism and market economics are those least worst alternatives.

      • Dan O’Connor

        And yet unlike the ” free market ” ” ” Liberal ” multicult Cultural Marxism of Americanism, the Soviet occupation of Eastern and Central Europe preserved the ethnic and demographic identites of those nations in a kind of time warp , whereas for the last 50 years the ” free market ” ” liberal ” elite in North America, Australia and Western Europe have waging a relentless and full blown neurolinguistic campaign of racial demonisation and demographic vandalism and replacement against their own historical populations .
        That which we live under now in the non East European West is a hybrid of crony Capitalism / consumerism within the economic sphere allied with Political Correctness = Cultural Marxism = Cultural Communism with the cultural / social sphere .
        Eastern and Central Europe remained relatively and paradoxically socially conservative in comparison to the Cult Marx Left’s successful Long March Through all of the ” free market ” West’s institutions .
        I think you are dealing with a series of false paradigms, dichotomies and false opposites . Conservatism ( Cuckservatism Inc. ) is not the opposite of Cultural Marxism / Critical Theory . The Republican / Tory parties are not the exact opposite of the Democrat / Labour parties .
        Eastern Europeans look at the West now and wonder why they have more free speech than we do , and because they lived under Communism they look at the West and can recognise the smell of it when they see it .
        This new kind of Western version of Cultural Communism has adopted non-White immigrants as the new substitute ” oppressed ” proletariat for the White working class they have abandoned and despise
        The New Left is a middle / Upper class technocratic , intellectual aristocracy / priesthood , who have no working class roots, and they function as the Left wing PC Thought Police and managerial caste for the Globalist / Coporatist Plutocracy
        Your local multiculti / diversity sensitivities training course goes hand in hand with GoldMan Sachs
        Everything is not as simple as it seems .

      • Dan O’Connor

        Sorry for the mistake . On a re-reading of my own post , I found I had I have made a typo . I realised I had written…..

        ” Communism rots the body ” and it should have been

        ” Communism kills the body ” —-and Liberalism rots the soul “

  • Tamerlane

    Tony Parsons on this in GQ is equally as good and spot on.

    • Muttley

      That’s a great article! I enjoyed reading it. Thanks for the heads-up.

      Tory scum – c’est moi!

  • UnhygienixTheFishmonger

    Bravo Mr Cohen.

    • Sue Smith

      Ditto

    • GraveDave

      So do you imagine that Nick’s Damascene moment is going to get him marching off to Dave’s Conservative party or Nigel’s Kippers?
      I mean -come on!

  • Fraser Bailey

    So Nick, you’ve arrived at the point most of us reached when we were about 19. Better late than never, I suppose, but a lot of damage done to the country and the world in the meantime.

  • Muttley

    Mr. Cohen’s late-dawning realisation of what a nasty, dangerous, totalitarian movement the left is and always has been shows him up for a very late developer indeed. It’s amazing how long people can cling on to their teenage delusions, but the fact is that becoming a conservative is not an automatic function of aging but of the getting of wisdom. You can age without getting any of that at all, as Corbyn proves.

  • Ajourney

    Old granny Cohen has been beating the neocon Zionist drum for decades. All you learn from this tediously convoluted piece is that he likes to waffle hysterically about himself.

    • Sue Smith

      Hit a nerve, did he?

      • GraveDave

        He’s still not one of you, however much you wish for it.

        The Tory victory and the class cleansing of London « Nick …

        nickcohen.net/2015/05/…/the-tory-victory-and-the-class-cleansing-of-lond…

        May 2015 – The Tory victory and the class cleansing of London …. Nick Cohen’sbooks are like the
        best Smiths songs; however depressing the content, the …

        Shame on the cowardly Tory appeasers of Ukip| Nick Cohen …

        http://www.theguardian.com › Opinion ›
        General election 2015

        fall for the ‘lesser of two evils’ argument, but David Cameron has …

        The Tories’ European problem will bring chaos | Nick Cohen …

        http://www.theguardian.com › Opinion › EUreferendum

        4 Apr 2015 – Nick Cohen. The Tories’ obsession with
        getting out of Europe blinds them to the terrible economic consequences. Norwayis not in the EU and …

        Why mentally ill people are an easy target for the Tories …

        Mental health11 Apr 2015 – Why mentally ill people are an easy target for the Tories. Nick Cohen. Despite the
        valiant work of Norman Lamb, people with mental health …

        The Tory victory and the class cleansing of London « Nick …

        nickcohen.net/2015/05/…/the-tory-victory-and-the-class-cleansing-of-lond…16 May 2015 – The Tory victory and
        the class cleansing of London …. Nick Cohen’sbooks are like the
        best Smiths songs; however depressing the content, the …

        Lies, damned lies and Iain Duncan Smith | Nick Cohen – The …

        http://www.theguardian.com › Opinion › Iain
        Duncan Smith
        ·
        May 2013 – The work and pensions secretary, Iain Duncan Smith, was reprimanded by the … When the powerful lie with statistics, they do so in the cynical …

    • The End

      What a truly pathetic reaction. You prove Nick Cohen’s point totally. Why not use your mind instead and try and appreciate why an eminent left journalist like Nick should have to write these things? Mmm?

      • jennybloggs

        It is a very long article simply to tell us he is leaving the Labour Party.
        Why not just say ‘I am leaving the Labour Party’.

        • Cyril Sneer

          He writes articles, he doesn’t stop at the end of the first sentence.

    • Damaris Tighe

      Nick Cohen’s case rests I think.

  • zanzamander

    So you’re abandoning the monster you’ve supported all your life. Great Nick, better late than never.

    But listen to this, I recognised the dangerous delusions of the Left way back when I was in my teens and remember listening first time to Tony Benn, Tony Benn .

    Even though I might not have heard George Orwell’s quote about the English intellectual who would feel more ashamed of standing to attention during “God Save the King” than of stealing from a poor box’, I understood the sentiment of it all throughout the Thatcher era listening to the line up of lefties paraded on the BBC daily in front of my impressionable teenage eyes. And yet it took you this many years and the dreadful sight of Corbyn standing silent like a dummy, biting on his tongue, at the Battle of Britain remembrance service?

    You may be able to quote someone famous at a drop of a hat, but it seems it is taking you decades to understand their meaning. I didn’t go to any fancy school where they taught George Canning (maybe they did and I wasn’t paying attention), but I began to recognise and despise those who came across as a friend of every country but his own at a very early age. Btw, I would improve upon that quote by adding “but Israel” after “every other country”.

    The left has delivered every describable evil at our door step throughout history. Now it is busy laying the foundations for Islam to make a home here. Believe me, when this shIt hits the fan, all your Messrs George Canning and Orwell’s quotes will go out of the window. And you know what is even more distressing? It is that the left will still think Islam is a religion of peace, searching for a moderate version of it even when the last one of them is being hoisted by his neck on the street of some damp and dreary European capital in not too distant a future.

  • WFB56

    Thatcher was right, the facts of life are conservative but only for people who assume a mantle of responsibility for themselves, their spouses, their children, their parents, their friends and their neighbours. For all the rest, Corbyn beckons.

    • Asphodel

      The facts of life are conservative for those who are terrified they are a colony of cells weaved together with a net of atoms. It is far more comforting to believe you are an individual sitting behind your eyes pulling levers which make your legs and arms move.
      This narrow and simple understanding of reality keeps you blinkered to the fact that beneath the surface, the universe is a single lump of clay. Once you realise this, then the distinction between this contour here, or that sphere there becomes ridiculous.

    • GraveDave

      ‘Facts’ and ‘Conservatives’ in the same breath.

    • Fraser Bailey

      Yes, but ‘all the rest’ amounts to a lot of people.

    • nicks40

      “For all the rest …” Good job there is no ‘rest’, then.

    • Ed O’Meara

      If you care for other people, family, neighbours etc you want to help them and you care about the injustices they face and the problems they have.

      This has everything to do with life. Nothing to do with Cameron’s Neo-Conservatism.

  • Asphodel

    Nick, you can be a decent human being and still be complicit in awful, terrible iniquity. That is a paradox of human civilisation.

    You obviously believe you are a good man, with principled views. But you are a member of a society which hordes the vast majority of the worlds wealth to live in comfort and luxury. The result is daily mountains of dead, starving and tortured human beings who had the ill-luck not to be born within a set of imaginary borders. Never mind the moral particulars of your own ideology, at the foundation of our social and individual identity as western citizens, is the fact that our blissful lives cause the unnecessary death and suffering of millions.

    But this doesn’t stop you being a decent human being. That is the paradox. The problem is when you deny the reality of this situation and try to convince yourself of some moral superiority as most of us have done -and are encouraged to do- it detaches us from reality, and results in morally bankrupt nitpicking (contemporary political discourse being a prime example)

    • Harry Pond

      Absolute cobblers. If the West has any culpability in the ‘suffering of millions’ its because we have exported our medical advancements without educating and supplying the means for the third world to breed less.

      • CamberwellRob

        “Breed”?

        • Harry Pond

          Yes, like rabbits.

    • CamberwellRob

      This is a strange comment. Developed societies don’t “horde the vast majority of the world’s wealth”, because the wealth of the world is not a fixed sum. The total amount of global wealth has grown far faster than the growth of population, for hundreds of years, precisely because of consumer demand and trade. Do you really think that if the developed world gave away all its wealth, the prosperity of the global poor would improve over anything except the very short term?

  • zanzamander

    Now Nick, we know that you’re a late developer, but if I told you that today’s migrant crisis facing us both from North Africa and the Middle East is really a manufactured exodus in order to bring as many followers of Mohammad here in as little a time as possible, how many decades will it take you to realise that I was right?

    • zanzamander

      I was trying to avoid the use of the very emotive and distressing word “flood” in my above comment.

      • Sue Smith

        LOL. And it’s a flood of biblical proportions, is it not!!!!

    • Asphodel

      Are you so desperate to externalise your inner demons? Are you that terrified of facing your own insecurities fears and weaknesses that you must project them onto other human beings who are weaker and poorer than you so that they don’t seem all that frightening?

      • zanzamander

        I would rather have ten, no hundred Congolese, Ruandan, Yezidi or a Kurd refugee escaping a real genocide than one, one, follower of Mohammad “escaping” from a manufactured one from North Africa, Syria or any Islamic country around the world.

        Get me? Doubt it.

        • St Martyr

          I agree. Maybe it’s cause my ethnicity is East African and the Islam has enslaved us like a b*tch but I completely agree. You’re either with or against-that’s it.

      • St Martyr

        Oh shut it you pompous hypocrite.

  • WFB56

    “I have argued that the likes of Corbyn do not represent the true left;” complete crap. Corbyn is the true left and all of the rationalising in the world by Mr. Cohen won’t change that.

  • EyebrowsOfCapaldi

    I’ve also recently left the left. I no longer have faith in it. I’m tired of the virtue signalling, the hypocrisy, the name calling, and the bizarre relationship with a certain religion (the peaceful one of course, in case you were wondering).

    • Sue Smith

      Congratulations and welcome to the human race!!

      • GraveDave

        You really do yourself and the Right a big favour -dont you?

        • Dan O’Connor

          Bye Dave
          Dontcha’ all come on back now ya hear !

          • jennybloggs

            Don’t be so touchy – it is hardly encoded – glaringly obvious. Personally I don’t like the British right or the British left as they now are – though I got on fine with Old Labour and pre-Thatcherite Tories.

        • Sue Smith

          I try. Surely that’s worth some points?

    • Dan O’Connor

      It’s never too late .
      It’s just 50 million immigrants, sorry er..I mean 5 minutes … to midnight

  • ohforheavensake

    Or, you lost the argument. I’m sorry, Nick- but you went a while ago.

    • Newgrubstreet

      To paraphrase Polly Toynbee, those of the Left who flounce off in a huff now because they’ve lost the argument won’t be subsequently welcomed back as saviours of the movement: something new will have long taken their place by then.

    • blandings

      “I’m sorry, Nick- but you went a while ago”

      Probably because he has more brains than you

  • Newgrubstreet

    Oh dear. Nick Cohen’s transformation into another Dan Hodges continues apace.

    “‘The level of hatred directed by the Corbyn left at Labour people who have fought Tories all their lives is as menacing as it is ridiculous.”

    “The half-educated fanatics are in control now.”

    You could at least be consistent within your own articles…

  • Knives_and_Faux

    I reject your membership of the right, follow the slime trail back to your corner. The damage you’ve wreaked is incalculable.

  • GraveDave

    Why I’ve finally given up on the left

    Dont start going all Dan Hodges on us Nick.

    thought has shifted towards movements it would once have denounced as racist,

    .I’m no fan of Dave or his gang but we all know what was happening in places like Tower Hamlets when New Labour were in charge. Truth being it wasn’t the so called mishandling of the economy that lost them the election, it was,. in the words of one Aidan Burly, ‘All that lefty muilti culty cr*ap.’ .

  • Singularis

    I had a similar experience when I stopped voting Tory and started voting UKIP. I never supported the Tories you understand, but I grew up in the 80’s with my father telling me we cant let the loony Left come to power, so must vote Conservative. That was all the thought I gave it for my 20’s and duly voted against Labour.
    Then in my early 30’s I started to read alot more about politics, especially Conservative Home and what I discovered was that I didnt much like Tories either, they sounded like Labour to me, especially their move towards lukewarm socialism to chase votes.
    So I looked about, I caught that famous video of Farage in the EP and I finally saw someone saying things that made sense to me, so I found a new home. I even ended up representing the party this year, something I never imagined I would do. Change is sometimes good, I have no regrets.

    • Nick

      Snap.Good post.

  • A Free Man

    ‘He did not understand that the effects of reality’s many muggings are never predictable, or that facts of life are not always, as Margaret Thatcher claimed, conservative. If they were, we would still have feudalism.’

    You really are a pr@ aren’t you Nick. Do you honestly believe that we conservatives are so because want to bring back feudalism. Quite easy to be a leftist when you define everything you don’t like as ‘right wing’.

    You are very good writer ruined by silly statements like the one above

  • Unhiddenness

    Nick Cohen is a Leftist?

    • GraveDave

      That’s what the Right think.

  • Tantric Guru

    Yes, normally people grow out of it after they get a job and embark on a career.

    • GraveDave

      Especially if that career is shameless money racket.

  • zanzamander

    Nick, now that you’ve left the Left, perhaps you can give us an insight as to why lefties/Socialists hate the Jews so much?

    • ohforheavensake

      We don’t.

      • blandings

        “We don’t.”

        Nick Cohen has really rattled your cage hasn’t he?
        Good.

    • GraveDave

      Who cares? Or why dont you just go to Islington and ask a socialist/lefty for yourself? In any case it’s the English they all hate nowadays.

      • ohforheavensake

        We don’t.

        • GraveDave

          When I said ‘they’ I meant the whole world ; – )

    • Damaris Tighe

      Here’s my hypothesis. People harbouring perpetual grudge & hate – left & right – need to project the cause of their feelings of powerlessness onto a group ‘other’. The left can’t use BMEs for this as they have identified racism as exclusively a white on black/brown phenomenon. So they fall back on the Jews who fit the role well as a successful minority with a supposed hidden monopoly on power. This scapegoating has great explanatory value for them & in a strange way is comforting for those who need a neat reason for their felt impotence.

  • zanzamander

    Together with Islam, BBC/Guardian is the most clear and present danger facing us today.

  • ohforheavensake

    Thing is, I can’t reconcile your article with this-

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jtd3uMdgRfk&feature=youtu.be&app=desktop

    – an interview in which Corbyn, whatever you think of him, comes across as a reasonable, pragmatic man.

    • blandings

      “- an interview in which Corbyn, whatever you think of him, comes across as a reasonable, pragmatic man.”

      Only to people without a moral backbone.

  • beenzrgud

    For decades the left have had a huge blind spots regarding lots of issues. They habitually reject difficult realities, preferring instead to sit on the sidelines and simply jeer those who are willing to take the bull by the horns. I would describe them as perpetual malcontents with a huge sense of self entitlement. No use in the real at all really, which is why I think most seem to be found in the public sector and places like quangos.

  • Dan O’Connor

    ” The Polarisation of Politics / Sociology ;

    ” –is that primordialism approaches the nation as a living, organic entity, formed from naturally occuring bonds, whereas ( Western ) modernism adopts the approach that the nation state is an artificial construct ”

    The meta political implications contained in the above sentence will become the defining debate of the 21st century and will render any other matters meaningless and trivial in comparison because of the nature of the stakes at play and the obvious perils and horrors it alludes to within the coming decades .
    And yet it is an issue that the entire mainstream political / academic /media caste, from where the hard Left begins and all the way over to where the borderlines of mainstream Conservatism ends, and the Forbidden Zone begins , are absolutely petrified of being forced to debate , and will go to any lenghts to avoid doing so
    The most existential and destructive force that European man has ever had to face since the Ice Age ( his biological replacement and destruction by way of third world invasion ) and none of them want to notice the 800lb gorilla in the room
    The reason is very simple . It is because they know that when the crap hits the fan, and its a question not of ” If ” but ” When ” it is they who will be to blame

  • Simon Jenkins

    Nick Cohen is such a massive whiny baby.

    • blandings

      “Nick Cohen is such a massive whiny baby.”

      And you are what exactly?
      Hmm.. tell us oh righteous one.

      • Simon Jenkins

        Well I’m not someone who throws my toys out of the pram just because a left-winger is elected to lead a left-wing party.

        • blandings

          “Well I’m not someone who throws my toys out of the pram just because a left-winger is elected to lead a left-wing party.”

          Simon, honey, saying the same thing over and over again doesn’t make it any the more convincing.

          • Simon Jenkins

            ? Have I posted this more than once?

          • blandings

            Three times babes.
            Post early post often

          • Simon Jenkins

            I’m going to take the typical leftist route and blame the Spectator’s crummy servers for this 😉

      • Simon Jenkins

        Well I’m not someone who throws my toys out of the pram because a left-winger is elected to lead a left-wing party.

      • Simon Jenkins

        Well I’m not someone who throws my toys out of the pram because a left-winger is elected to lead a left-wing party.

  • Joshua Ross

    Is this the guy who compared anti-Iraq protestors to supporters of facism?

    Cos I’m pretty sure it’s the same guy.

    Bit embarrassing.

  • HSouth

    That and the fact he consorts with islamic anti-semites. The reason I deserted Labour is because it is unacceptable in British society to say you deserted Labour because they are anti white-British.

    • Simon Jenkins

      So because you’re a racist?

      • HSouth

        Then Nick Cohen is a ‘racist’ for leaving Labour because Corbyn is anti-zionist.

        • Simon Jenkins

          I’m not seeing a ‘no’

          • HSouth

            You’re the racist.

          • Simon Jenkins

            If you’re going to be one you might as well own it.

          • HSouth

            You’re the racist. You are completely antipathetic to the interests of the native British people.

          • Simon Jenkins

            Yeah, to be fair British people are terrible. Hopefully the left-wing conspiracy will crush them soon by flooding the country with brown people.

          • HSouth

            You are as antipathetic to the interests of the native British people as Corbyn is to the Jews in Israel.

          • Simon Jenkins

            Yeah, that’s another thing I don’t get. Why is it important that the leader of a UK political party care about Jews in Israel? I’m pretty sure they can manage fine by themselves.

          • Cyril Sneer

            Yep Trigger is an apt name for you.

          • blandings

            “Yeah, to be fair British people are terrible. Hopefully the left-wing conspiracy will crush them soon by flooding the country with brown people.”

            Oh do go away you stupid, vindictive, middle class, phoney radical.

          • Simon Jenkins

            You in particular will be replaced by a Muslim.

          • blandings

            Cut to the quick – Yeah!

          • Simon Jenkins

            Fantastic!

          • Simon Jenkins

            You in particular are going to be replaced by a Muslim.

          • blandings

            “You in particular are going to be replaced by a Muslim.”

            What again!
            You’re a bright spark and no mistake.
            Quickfire Simon, the scourge of the torees

          • Cyril Sneer

            We should call him Trigger.

          • Cyril Sneer

            It’s good that this thread has got under your skin.

          • Simon Jenkins

            You will be replaced by two children from Somalia.

          • Cyril Sneer

            You’re a great example of the toxic left that the author of this article was talking about.

            The sort of unelectable vile anti-white, anti-Brit trash that will never win an election but will successfully deface another war memorial.

          • Simon Jenkins

            You guys are are so easy so wind up.

      • Cyril Sneer

        No he isn’t but you are a moron.

        • Simon Jenkins

          You know, I can’t even deny it. You’re right, I am a moron for thinking someone who brings up race might be a racist.

  • zanzamander

    Lefties’ friend, Hamas, are showing little “Palestinian” boy who wants to become engineer “so that I can blow up the Jews”

    http://www.memri.org/clip/en/0/0/0/0/0/0/5070.htm

    An excerpt:

    Palestinian girl, host of the show: What do you want to be when you grow up, Muhammad?

    Muhammad Ali Zakariya Al-Astal: [A member of] the Al-Qassam Brigades.

    Palestinian girl, host of the show: Of the Al-Qassam Brigades? Fine. And you, Zakariya, what would you like to be?

    Palestinian child, guest on the show, Zakariya: An engineer.

    Palestinian girl, host of the show: An engineer? Why do you want to become an engineer?

    Palestinian child, Zakariya: So that I can blow up the Jews.

    Palestinian girl, host of the show: You want to blow up the Jews?
    No, we want to blow up the Zionists. You mean the occupation, right?
    Okay, so that is why you want to become an engineer?

    […]

    Wissam, what would you like to say to these two children?

    Wissam, child guest host: Keep waging Jihad, and Allah willing, when you grow up, you will wage resistance against the Jews…

    Palestinian girl, host of the show: The occupation…

    Wissam: …bomb the occupation, and the Al-Aqsa mosque will be liberated.

    Palestinian girl, host of the show: Allah willing.

    Now these are the friends lefties have been cultivating for decades.

  • Damaris Tighe

    All I can say Nick, to you & to Rod who has also given up on the left, is ‘welcome to sanity’.

    • Simon Jenkins

      Nice to see the use of playground insults against people who disagree with you. Are you 12?

      • Damaris Tighe

        Are you 8, to see a playground insult in my mild comment?

        • AJH1968

          These lefty trolls to stick to these threads like shit to an army blanket; nothing coherent or rational in their arguments would love to meet some of them in real life. I think I would be completely underwhelmed by them in the flesh so to speak. Please have a good day and try not to get too upset.

          • Damaris Tighe

            99% of the real playground insults I see here, complete with playground foul mouthed swearing, comes from the leftist trolls.

        • MikeF

          Perhaps you are his fantasy ‘older woman’.

          • Damaris Tighe

            Hey, enough of the ‘older’!!

    • Fraser Bailey

      Yes, but as I asked Rod on here a few days ago, what are you actually going to do about it? Will you resign your Labour membership? (Rod, for one, was still giving them 13 quid a month or something ridiculous). Will you actually join or campaign for another party?

      • Damaris Tighe

        It’s a big opportunity for Ukip. But I’m ambivalent on this as they will have to backtrack still further on their more libertarian policies.

  • TRAV1S

    Labour; from the party of the working man, to the party of terrorist sympathisers and Rotherham deniers.

  • Acleron

    I don’t like Iran so I’ll join a party that supports a regime which beheads adulterers, tortures apostates and supports misogynists? Good thinking there.

    Anybody who criticises Israel’s treatment of Palestinians is anti Semitic? Yup more good thinking.

    The half educated fanatics are in control now?

    Yup, good reasoned debate there.

    • Freddythreepwood

      I should put more water in it, Yup.

  • Freddythreepwood

    Nick, these people have always been there and they are the reason, meek and mild as I am, I have always voted Conservative. Most people are on both sides of centre. The extreme Right doesn’t concern me too much because we know they are nuts and can ignore them. On the other hand, the extreme Left have always been in our faces, screaming bile where it suits them, and the sensible Left have indulged them. Not for me, thank you very much, and now it seems, not for you either. Welcome to the club.

  • Bluebeard

    So, Nick. How about joining the call for moderate Labour supporters to dump the old, anachronistic, party and avoid being caught in its death throws, and to unite with the LibDems to create a new, middle-ground Social Democractic party? As an old-fashioned Liberal, I like to imagine that the centre-ground is the right place to stand, so the more people that stand there, the less likely we are to have to put up with tedious brickbats being lobbed over our heads from the extremists on either side.

    • Dan O’Connor

      Only a bunch of limp wristed luvy duvy bleeding heart middle ground Social Democrat old fashioned Liberal hippies , stand between us and the third world hordes and demographic catastophy ..right ?
      In other words , buisness as usual
      Gimme a break !

      • Bluebeard

        Yes, because everyone who is a classical Liberal is exactly as you described. You make a very good and well thought out point. I will immediately change my political stance.

        • Dan O’Connor

          Don’t bother , events will change your political stance and your perception of reality along with it sooner than any of us thought, until very recently ( Merkel & Co )

          ” Those who will , the fates lead , and those who won’t they drag ”

          We’ve been the hated messangers , the hated Cassandras for decades and everything we predicted is coming true .
          Liberalism contain the seeds within itself of its own destruction because it believes it can continue existing without the historical peoples who made it possible in the first place

          • Spenglersdog

            It will be interesting to see the mental gymnastics performed by all these ideologies in the face of an overwhelming reality. It will be like the Olympics with all the cartwheeling, backtracking, flip-flopping and grandstanding.

          • Dan O’Connor

            Its good to see you again SpenglersDog
            Yes , we’d better stock up with extra rations of popcorn
            If we thought the last 10 years have been interesting , it is nothing compared to what is coming
            It’s going to be one hell of a cabaret

    • Brentfordian

      Neither fish nor fowl surely? Never quite understood how the SDP and the LIbs could reconcile what ought to have been fundamental ideological differences. Granted, the LIbs of the time were hardly ‘classical’, but you say you are. How then can you advocate SD statist intervention?

  • Dan O’Connor

    If you occupied what was considered the ideological /moral centre ground in 1965 , and went to sleep for 50 years and woke up in 2015 , you’d find yourself occupying the ideological / moral ” far right ”
    That whizzing sound you heard was the ideological / cultural centre ground zooming over to the Cultural Marxist hard Left .
    Everything that was considered mainstream obvious , common sense , logical and moral in 1965 , is now considered by our poltical , academic and media elite to be
    ” bigoted , ignorant , hateful , xenophobic ,racist , extremist , and some form of mental abnormality
    In other words , within the space of 50 years, morality , right , wrong , evil , good , normal , obvious , extreme , sanity, truth, beneficial , dangerous and the instinct for group self preservation , has been inverted and stood upside down on its head .

    Never before in the entire course of human history , has an entire culture , race and civilization decided to hand over its lands , social capital , heritage and indenties to competing and intruding alien cultures without a fight , and even worse, to evolve an ideology that morally justfies it and glorifies it as proof of their moral supremacy
    European man is in a civilzational death dance .

    • Freddythreepwood

      Back Of The Net, Dan.

      • Dan O’Connor

        Lay off the booze Fred.

      • Dan O’Connor

        Sorry for the misunderstandifng Fred ; I misinterpreted your reply,and I’ve deleted my rather harsh response. I’ve done an all night blogging session and the lack of sleep must have scrambled my brain circuits and reading comprehension a bit .
        All the best
        Dan.

        • Freddythreepwood

          No problem. It’s an expression I think I heard someone use on the telly and it just came to mind.

    • Superfluous

      I was at my office party in central London the other night and not one ethnicity had more than about 15% representation of all staff. Almost everyone in my immediate circle came from a different country, including myself.

      Having grown up in an insular and bigoted place (Northern Ireland, which has about a million people living there who are descended from British migrants, I must point out) I find it quite refreshing to be surrounded by other cultures.

      Of course what I see as refreshing and forward thinking you think of as an alien invasion. I am not sure we can come to peace – but I think my view will serve me better and prevent a lot of unwarranted anxiety, because I am quite relaxed about the death of the old mono-ethnic nation states and I quite like the fact that the west is becoming a melting pot of the world.

  • david

    Good on you Nick. You’ve left the dark side. Perhaps now you will show some compassion for the victims of Muslim extremists, the genitally mutilated, the subservient and the sexually enslaved. Unfortunately, it’s too late for the recently beheaded. There will come a time when the far left will be called to account for its support for murderous theocrats and deranged Islamists. And also for their undisguised fascism and anti-Semitism.

    • RedLT

      Don’t you realised that it was the right and centre parties who started the wars that actually created the very extremists your blaming the left for? You can find out about this stuff by reading books, you know.

      • david

        Even if you are right, it’s too late to examine the cause of the extremism you refer to. The fact is that the left simply will not condemn the indefensible. Instead you get all kinds of doublespeak such as Obama’s directive not to use the words Islamic fundamentalism. Oh, and yes I do read books. Your sarcastic comment is typical of the left. Ad hominem attacks instead of a debate in the forum of ideas.

  • RedLT

    One of the main reasons for Corbyn’s election is that the ‘centreground’ of politics has slipped so far to the right over the last 20 years that centre right policies now are no different from the right wing policies of Margaret Thatcher (and I include New Labour in this list):

    Selling off social housing – check.
    Attacking the unions – check (admittedly the 80’s unions had become a problem).
    Unrelenting promotion of the free market and disregard for its impact – check.
    Cutting state support for the most vulnerable – check and double check.
    Tax cuts for the priviliged few – check
    Itching to launch wars – check
    Free reign given to the banks – check
    Privatising national industries – check
    Attempting to dismantle and privatise the NHS – check

    So, if this is the middle ground, no wonder people have become disenfranchised and have sought someone who actually offers a vision of Britain that has people at its heart.

    • Curiously Hard

      It’s only now after 2 defeats that this ‘disenfranchisement’ has really reared it’s head though, it was all fine in victory, I dare say if Ed Miliband had actually won, you’d have had a deafening silence from the people that are making the most noise now. Call it Karma, they’re finding out what the people that ported over to the Kippers had to endure.
      The Corbynite’s problem now is also impacted by the fact that in 4 years time they’ll be having to try to convince the electorate to vote for a party that they’ve broadcast to everyone is full of ‘Tories’, effectively, unless the party splits, it’ll still have the same people they were lambasting and quite violently abusing in some cases on a daily basis a couple of weeks ago, what a mess, but they only have themselves to blame, despite what I imagine we’ll hear after they get pasted in 2020.

    • Dan O’Connor

      Why is the digusting and pathological war of demographic vandalism waged by the Conservative/ and Left globalist elite against their own historical peoples over the last 50 years , missing from your list ?
      Strange considering that the immigration demographic disaster will come to dominate all other issues in the decades to come and puts a question mark over our children’s future
      Oh , no wait , what a silly question . It is people like you who cheered it on in the first place .

      • Daniel

        Do you mean the same kind demographic vandalism perpetrated over hundreds of years by this hear great nation?

        • Dan O’Connor

          Oh , its the Left’s ” pay back time ” argument
          The Left’s version of Biblical Sin — the White middle upper class trendy radical chic White guilt reeking blood libel against all of our childrens children for the rest of eternity
          The lie that the White race is uniquely genocidal and uniquely oppressive and cruel
          Tell me Daniel , when you convene Nuremberg 2 , will Islam and the 200 million victims it left in its wake , and the slaves they kept and the countries they occupied and the wars they fought be included on your indictment list of those to be punished ?
          Maybe you haven’t noticed that non-Whites never lose a wink of sleep about the people they genocided , the slaves they kept and the wars they fought
          Your trouble is a waling scream of adolescent agony that the White race was not the morally spotless Mother Teresa of the planet
          Man up ! Grow up ! Get over it !
          Don’t be apologetic whimp for the greatest , most successful civilzation in all of human history , whose achievements in every field of endevour have never been equalled
          What racial double standards. what a hypocrite you are

          Here’s a definition of a White social justice warrior = a future victim of die-versity

  • CharleyFarleyFive

    Or in other words, you’ve finally grown up.

  • John D Traynor

    One of the dumbest, most uninformed and deliberately misleading pieces of tripe I have ever read. Conmen like Cohen have always existed – pretenders, liars. He is upset because he has been found out. And now he is merely a professional troll pissing into the wind. https://ducksoap.wordpress.com/2015/08/27/screaming-heads-and-professional-trolls/

    • Blazeaway

      Your unthinking abuse proves the point that Nick is making

  • Castro Spendlove

    Come on in Nick, the water’s lovely. One good thing about being non-aligned is that those on the right don’t automatically presume that you are a Tory because you are not left-wing.

  • Dominic Stockford

    An interesting and honest presentation of where the author finds himself.

  • Mark Timmins

    Um no. Kate Godfrey received a backlash (unsure of the nature but mostly vitriolic locals) because she tried a publicity stunt over the hospital the Tories have sought to demonise. It was cheap, self-serving and she cared as much for the topic as any other MP.

  • Frederick Sandall

    The argument is that New Labour is therefore a different party out of step with many former labour supporters and members, many of whom left in droves because of Tony Blair’s alliance with Bush and other disreputable, extremely wealthy, people. We now know that mobey and extreme wealth was his goal all along. So let New Labour people leave and form a new party. Tory lite I guess or let them join the Tories altogether….OR maybe we should just do away with these Party politics altogether and just debate and vote on policy rather than Party lines. Get the Whips out!

  • zanzamander

    Breaking:
    If anyone thought that the revelations of the affair between John Major and Edwina Currie were bad enough to bring back up what you had eaten maybe the night before, wait till you hear this: Jeremy Corbyn and Diane Abbott were lovers, reveals the Times.

    Yuck!

  • http://www.maternalhealthandwellbeing.com/ Joan

    I like the thrust of the article very much but disagree when the author suggests that arguments about who is the ‘real left’ are meaningless. Left-wing values have theories, traditions and values that distinguish them from the Right. Nick Cohen indicates some key ones when he denounces the ‘eft’ move toward support for racism, imperialism and fascism. The term pseudo-left should be applied to the likes of Corbyn and his supporters. The pseudo-left is essentially right-wing; to the right of the Right in important ways. A genuine left can only emerge through challenging the pseudo-left and calling it out for what it is. – Barry York (C21st Left)

  • Henry Krinkle

    Britain has spent decades sending billions of pounds worth of weapons and military training to the Gulf dictatorships year in year out. Tony Blair, David Cameron, and Margaret Thatcher have all professed their support for our “close friend and ally” the House Of Saud – probably one of the most repressive regimes in the world.

    Why doesn’t this cause the same outrage, the same public denunciations from the friends of Israel and the champion’s of women’s rights?

    • Monkish

      It does, you’re just frequenting the wrong people or reading the wrong books/websites.

  • http://www.workinprogress.com Nicetime

    To be honest we need Blairite refugees on the ‘centre right’ even less than we need Islamic refugees from the Middle East. You made the mess Cohen, you supported Blair, Jenkins, multiculturalism, the EU, the Euro, you chose ‘me, me, me’ hedonism and ‘gender equality’ over the stability of the family unit for raising the next generation. You ignored the rational critiques and joined with the chorus of ‘racist, sexist, little Englander’ to shout down any rational debate. Worst of all, you provided the cover for policies on policing, immigration and a host of other issues that the likes of Diane Abbott were dismissed as loonies for in the 80s.

    I am sick of the refrain that the left is motivated by a concern for the poor and weak. Owen Jones was trying that on the other day. If it is it has a funny way of showing it. Since at least 1968, teh left has been following the destabilising tactics of the likes of Gramsci and Saul Alinski. You always knew what the tactics were, and you were happy to ride the tiger when it was eating someone else. Now stay there and fight your fight.

    • E.I.Cronin

      About as subtle as a sledgehammer, but brilliant.

      Still, as a refugee from left field I appeal for clemency on Nick’s behalf. We need all the help we can get.

    • Curiously Hard

      It’s like following a cute dog with diarrhoea round with a pooper-scooper isn’t it? You know it means well and is really cuddly, but it’s always going to leave you with one hell of a mess to clean up when it’s asleep.

      • global city

        Better to think of it constantly trying to jump into your lap. You can kid yourself that it is doing this for affection, but you know the truth….and the consequences if you let it up!

  • Ed O’Meara

    It’s because you’re a Tory.

    • Sue Smith

      Where I come from Tory is the name of a fish restaurant.

      • Ed O’Meara

        And I bet it reeks!

        • Sue Smith

          It was recently bulldozed to make way for a car park!!!

          • Ed O’Meara

            Flat fish.

          • Sue Smith

            On a ‘scale’ of 1 to 10 I’d say your joke was a minus 1!!

          • Ed O’Meara

            Gutted.

          • Sue Smith

            OK, I’m hooked. Have you got any other good lines?

          • Ed O’Meara

            Nope.

            Fin.

  • global city

    Good article, Nick.

    Your realisation will be complete when you come to understand that ‘the Left’ has not turned rancid but has always been so.

    It is the core reason why so many decent, good minded people have always rejected it. Your parents created an intellectual and emotional prison for you. Now you only have one more door to unlock before you are free.

    • Ed O’Meara

      I think you’re thinking of Scientology.

  • PerplexedSardine

    The “progressive” movement has for decades been warned it would end up as apologists for ideas and actions it claimed to be against when espoused and performed by its allies. This has been going on since long before Corbyn, and is in fact in the grand tradition of Utopian politics.

    The excuses made by the Left for Islamists today are the same as those it made for the Soviets, the Maoists, the African socialist dictators and many other tyrannies. Such people would rather see civilisations collapse than admit that they might be wrong.

    • Henry Krinkle

      Ronald Reagan went to the WWII graves in Bitberg, West Germany in 1985 which included 49 members of the SS, and described the German soldiers buried there as victims “just as surely as the victims in the concentration camps.”

      Ronald Reagan also said round about the same time –

      “To watch the courageous Afghan freedom fighters battle modern arsenals with simple hand-held weapons is an inspiration to those who love freedom. Their courage teaches us a great lesson — that there are things in this world worth defending.”

      Cuts both ways doesn’t it?

      • E.I.Cronin

        His Alzheimer’s must have been starting to kick in if he said that about the Taliban or Al-Quaeda 🙂

        And he was just plain wrong on the first count… that’s moral relativism of the worst kind. Do you honestly agree the SS can be described as victims in the same sense as the camp inmates??

      • PerplexedSardine

        Sadly so. The parallel I would draw among the Right would be the end of colonialism, and the refusal of Imperial powers to allow majority rule on the grounds that the colonised societies would not be able to govern themselves and collapse.

        Many of them of course did collapse, but then having above championed self-determination for the people against the Left, I can hardly argue against it for my own “side”, can I? Believing one knows best for everyone is a human flaw rather than a Left-wing one.

  • Cyril Sneer

    It’s taken you god knows how long to work the bleedin obvious – that the Left is toxic.

    It’s a start Nick.

    “But the fact remains that the Labour party has just endorsed an apologist for Putin’s imperial aggression; a man who did not just appear on the propaganda channel of Russia, which invades its neighbours and persecutes gays,”

    Straight from the MSM cookbook of US orchestrated Neo Liberal propaganda – you clearly still have a long way to go Nick before your enlightenment is complete.

    • Spenglersdog

      He is just mirroring the move of the Trotskyites in America who shifted to the right and became Neo-Conservatives because the Left became hostile to Israel. Ethnic loyalty over and above ideology. Tedious and predictable dishonesty.

      • Ed O’Meara

        Or they shifted because that’s where the power lies. It’s a natural human reaction.

        • Spenglersdog

          That is a very charitable reading.

          • Ed O’Meara

            If I’m not charitable, the other side call me an intolerant Marxist-fascist, or some other garbled, doublespeak nonsense.

          • Sue Smith

            You sound like a National Treasure to me!!!

            We all need to laugh more (at lefties!).

          • Ed O’Meara

            And yet there is still indecisions over the spare plinth in Leicester Square.

  • Ed O’Meara

    People don’t want privatisation, they don’t want people getting rich off taxpayer’s money. Left, right, red, blue, up, down…whoever can offer me what the majority actually want…that’s who I’ll vote for.

  • Henry Krinkle

    It’s interesting that Tory MP Terry Dicks was back in the news recently after a clip from the 1980s surfaced of him criticising “Labour scruffs”, that has amused left and right alike.

    What should be remembered, is that Terry Dicks said in 1990 that Farzad Bazoft, Nick Cohen’s fellow Observer newspaper journalist in Iraq, accused of spying by Saddam Hussein ‘deserved to be hanged’ in a statement issued the day before he was executed. This came 2 years after Halabja chemical attack by Saddam that killed 5,000 Kurds. Other Tory MPs came out to denounce Bazoft in solidarity with Saddam.

    That Britain’s Conservatives and Republicans in the US supported Saddam’s brutal regime throughout the 1980s is never mentioned when Jeremy Corbyn’s so called “links to terrorism” are debated by Tory hypocrites and liberal concern trolls alike.

    • http://www.workinprogress.com Nicetime

      That’s fine, a Tory MP said something idiotic and embarrassing. That can happen, but it isn’t indicative of a fundamental flaw in the conservative philosophy, or a fundamental strength in the leftist one. The policy towards pro western hardmen at the time, which was massively derided and criticised by the left, was that ‘he may be a b*stard, but he’s our b*stard’. We arguably had the same attitude to Saddam that Churchill had to Stalin, post July 1941. There were bigger concerns, Iran in one case, the Nazis in the other.

      Then when we did attack Iraq, the left became vitriolically anti-war. Not because it supported Saddam, (in most cases) but because, for some reason, it sees the West as the most sinister and dangerous force on the global stage. It was a direct reprise of the pacifism and self loathing of the 30s. Corbyn has actually expressed admiration for Georg Lansbury, the Labour leader who said in 1933 “I would close every recruiting station, disband the Army and disarm the Air Force. I would abolish the whole dreadful equipment of war and say to the world: Do your worst.”
      Of course the world took him up on it

      • Henry Krinkle

        Iran, the country whose democratically elected government was overthrown in 1953 by the US and Britain in what was known as “Operation Ajax”. We went on to support the pro-western dictator (which included plans to develop the countries nuclear capacity) – The Shah – for the next 25 years. Worked out well didn’t it?

        • http://www.workinprogress.com Nicetime

          The bigger mistake was probably offering sanctuary to people like Khomeni for decades. And “democratically elected” hides a multitude of sins, as recent experience in Egypt illustrates

          • Henry Krinkle

            Oh, that’s OK then.

          • http://www.workinprogress.com Nicetime

            well if it isn’t, try a counter argument instead throwing buzzwords around

  • Sp

    Incredible not to say inexplicable tosh from a journo and commentator I usually have time for. How sad to read. Too much time spent in the Westminster bubble. My main issue with it and the one that therefore fundamentally weakens his assessment is that there is a complete lack of evidence of the pernicious traits he attributes to the new reactionaries of the left. From where I stand, I don’t see misogyny or ‘pathetic small-minded jealousies’ or the ‘anti-democratic bourgeois views of reactionaries’. This is language that he himself (or his sources) is/are reviving from a past time which then, might just have been appropriate. In quoting Rafael Behr’s column, for example he breaks one of the seminal rules of journalism which is that you simply mustn’t use the flimsy anecdotal viewpoints of the odd person here and there and then claim it to be representative of the wider mass. All this anti-Corbyn stuff from the get go was wearily predictable but what is so bewildering and disappointing is to see it from those who might have been considered to be pleased to have someone at long last, countering the twisted claims and lies from the disingenuous Osborne and his fellow cronies.

    • Ed O’Meara

      Perhaps he’s angling for a job at The Telegraph where he can join other Left-wing dissidents like Dan Hodges……*snort.*

    • TonyMcConnell

      “A complete lack of evidence”

      *Shaking my head in disbelief*

      • Sue Smith

        Laughing my head …off!!

        Like Marie Antoinette, I want to get ahead.

  • jeffersonian

    ‘I realise now what I should have known years ago. The causes I most care about — secularism, freedom of speech, universal human rights — are not their causes.’

    Welcome into the light Mr Cohen.

    • Ed O’Meara

      Don’t get blinded now.

  • ant

    It’s the thinness of the skin of those on the new left that marks them apart. The inability to suffer the mildest form of disagreement, while doling out hate-filled bile as a matter of course. I used to engage with Owen Jones on twitter until the murder of Lee Rigby when Jones repeatedly tweeted the murder had nothing to do with Islam. I enquired as to why he was such vehement defender of an ideology, many adherents of which would have gay men like him swinging from cranes. He responded by blocking me. To date of the many hundred individuals I follow – from all sides of the spectrum – the only other people I’ve been blocked by have been Jones, Tom Watson, George Galloway, Laurie Penny and Dianne Abbott. Oh, and that gobby fraud, Mo Ansar.

  • Dan O’Connor

    A governing mainstream Hard Left / Left / Liberal / Conservative elite that has no stake in the perpetuation of its own historical majority populations and actually profits from its social disfunction . It is an ideology of chaos, decay and destruction of the West’s social fabric and centuries of the toil and sweat and blood of our ancestors for the benefit of a punch and judy show of perks power and privilege snake oil peddlers and career spivs.
    We have a system in place that favours the unmaking of their own nations
    The ruling Left / Conservative political caste and their state controlled media want to give us am impression of engaging in very lively debate , while in reality they make sure it is kept within a very narrow ideological spectrum .
    They want us to get bogged down in the petty nit picking of micro managment that passes for modern politics . They will not debate the burning issues of our age .
    What we have to realise is that this poiltical caste are not like ordinary normal people .
    They don’t think like ordinary normal people.
    There is an entirely different dynamic going on in their brains . They have succeeded by way of decades of relentless indonctination and brainwashing throughout the educational and media institutions of paralysing the centres of the brain that are needed for rational thought and critical thinking , to the point where we now act as our own willing enslavers , persecuters, jailers and ethnic cleansers.

  • HSouth

    Neoconservatism was invented by jewish american leftists who realised the American left was anti-Israel.

    • Monkish

      Actually neoconservatism, as the French political scientist Justin Vaisse has shown (in “Neoconservatism: The Biography of a Movement”), emerged among the ex-Trotskyist left as a reaction to the failure of Johnson’s Great Society and the New Left’s Marxist Third-Worldism, domestic war on the family, and subversion of peaceful race relations. “Commentary” , the neoconservative rag par excellence, was a lot more concerned with the demise of the nuclear paternalistic family than anything else. Your view is just the uneducated bilge poured out by neo-Nazi websites and pro-Islamofascist leftists.

  • Henry Krinkle

    How moderate politicians do business (Corbyn take note)

    “Our two kingdoms share a long friendship, going back to the foundation of the modern Saudi state. Continuity of personal relationships, essential if we are to understand each other better, have been central to this.” – Sir John Jenkins, UK ambassador to Saudi Arabia

    Margaret Thatcher called herself “a great admirer of Saudi Arabia and the leadership of King Fahd,” which she declared was “a strong force for moderation and stability.”

    “I sincerely hope that the long and deep ties between our two kingdoms will continue and that we can continue to work together to strengthen peace and prosperity in the world.” – David Cameron, who put the flags at half mast after the death of King Abdullah.

  • Jankers

    “I am middle-class and won’t suffer under the coming decade of majority Tory rule”
    Poor working class. Dependent and long suffering, eternal victims of the whims of the wealthy. Pish!

  • Blazeaway

    Congratulations, Nick, you got there in the end.

    Good analysis always wins out in the end.

    What fascinates me is how this blind authoritarianism has come to be seen as ‘left’ when it is really extreme right.

    And how the liberals – mainly these days in UKIP and parts of the Conservative Party – have come to be derided by the ‘left’ as fascists. How on earth?

    I suspect that education is part of it. People are no longer taught to think and they just repeat orthodoxy.

    Anyway, welcome. You’ll feel clean now you are free of all the contortions, the hatred and the lies. I do and I was a Labour Party member for 25 years.

    • Ed O’Meara

      The Conservatives may have adopted some elements of social liberalism, but that’s as far as it goes.

      • Blazeaway

        I largely agree. They have moved towards corporatism which is a huge and powerful enemy for true liberals to fight

        • Ed O’Meara

          Give me a Conservative Party that keeps corporate interests in check and I’ll cross the floor tomorrow.

        • Ed O’Meara

          Give me a Conservative Party that disentangles itself from corporate interests and I’ll cross the floor tomorrow.

  • HJ777

    Owen Jones was a journalist?

  • greggf

    “Jeremy Corbyn did not become Labour leader because his friends in the Socialist Workers party organised a Leninist coup.”

    There’s always been a core of hard socialists in Britain, and other Europe’s left following WW2 . It was in ascendant in 1945 when Clement Atlee was pm for a time until the dead hand of socialist bureaucracy waned, despite the trade unions, as free market economics led to prosperity and the post war boom. The difference was that the Left in other parts of Europe – East Germany, Czecho, Poland , Hungary etc – were behind the iron curtain so remained in an economic effective slump.
    In Britain and Western Europe voters were quick enough in the 1950s to see through the left’s advocacy of paradise ; given democracy, the US and the free vote ……but the core stayed intact as it does elsewhere, which is perhaps why the left hate the US.

    And now Corbyn must sense a new socialist Europe is in the cards, having changed his mind from his vote against in 1975….!

    • Ed O’Meara

      I’d say that the Left shaped the agenda until at least the late 70s, then along came Maggie.

      • greggf

        I think I agree with that Ed, because after Atlee not much changed despite the voter’s expectations until MrsT !

        • Ed O’Meara

          That might be reading history backwards, but fair enough. I think I know what voter’s expectations are these days…very little.

    • Damaris Tighe

      The other difference is that the East European intelligentsia actually experienced hard core socialism. Their British counterparts have not so they can still fantasise about paradise.

      • greggf

        Yes, the central European EU nations – Poland, Slovakia, Czech, Hungary and, perhaps, the Baltic states – must remember the message from the EU as similar that they used to get from Moscow.
        Also, it is no coincidence that they are adjacent to the old Balkans nations and its recent wars, and are more sensitive to understanding the need to prevent the influx of muslims – having just got rid of one kind of totalitarianism with no wish to “embrace” another….!

  • Hegelman

    Of course, Cohen, it is possible to look at this a little more realistically.

    There never HAS been a Left that would be prefect by your standards, has there?

    Would you say Denis Healy, for instance, was a sound leftist? I thought he was until he mentioned casually in his book that he kept a dwarfed head from New Guinea on his desk. He obviously did not regard black people as quite human.

    And the Labour leaders of the 1940s were many of them strong proponents of Pakistan, now the fount of much Islamic terrorism. The role of Labour leaders in various bits of British imperialist and US-led skullduggery is too long for me to go into in detail here.

    There never has been a perfect Left. There has only been an imperfect one and we have to try and separate the good stuff from the bad: the eternal struggle which you have just copped out from.

    And what an obtuse, vicious over-simplifier you are !

    “But the fact remains that the Labour party has just endorsed an
    apologist for Putin’s imperial aggression; a man who did not just appear
    on the propaganda channel of Russia, which invades its neighbours and
    persecutes gays, but also of Iran, whose hangmen actually execute gays.
    Labour’s new leader sees a moral equivalence between 9/11 and the
    assassination of bin Laden, and associates with every variety of
    women-hating, queer-bashing, Jew-baiting jihadi, holocaust denier and
    9/11 truther. His supporters know it, but they don’t care.
    “And yes, thank you, I know all about the feebleness of Corbyn’s
    opponents. But the fact remains that the Labour party has just endorsed
    an apologist for Putin’s imperial aggression; a man who did not just
    appear on the propaganda channel of Russia, which invades its neighbours
    and persecutes gays, but also of Iran, whose hangmen actually execute
    gays. Labour’s new leader sees a moral equivalence between 9/11 and the
    assassination of bin Laden, and associates with every variety of
    women-hating, queer-bashing, Jew-baiting jihadi, holocaust denier and
    9/11 truther. His supporters know it, but they don’t care.
    “And yes, thank you, I know all about the feebleness of Corbyn’s
    opponents. But the fact remains that the Labour party has just endorsed
    an apologist for Putin’s imperial aggression; a man who did not just
    appear on the propaganda channel of Russia, which invades its neighbours
    and persecutes gays, but also of Iran, whose hangmen actually execute
    gays. Labour’s new leader sees a moral equivalence between 9/11 and the
    assassination of bin Laden, and associates with every variety of
    women-hating, queer-bashing, Jew-baiting jihadi, holocaust denier and
    9/11 truther. His supporters know it, but they don’t care.

    • Blazeaway

      Nick has spoken of how abuse has substituted for thought with the modern left – and you are at it!

      You describe Nick as ‘an obtuse, vicious over-simplifier’.

      I think you prove his point. It is a point that I have noticed a great deal with regard to the left’s attitude to UKIP. It’s response is rarely, if ever, to debate – but the downright abuse is phenomenal.

      The left has never been perfect of course. But now it no longer even understands the basic principles of democracy.

      I write as a former labour Party member of 25 years, subs collector, chairman, election organiser…

  • Keith Cameron

    I’ve yet to meet a leftists that upon closer inspection didn’t appear brain damaged.

  • Dan O’Connor

    The motto of the Left , is …

    ” No enemies to the Left of us , and no friends to the Right of us ”

    The motto of the Conservatives Inc , is … also

    ” No enemies to the Left of us, and no friends to the Right of us ”

    The main enemy of the Left is considered by them to be to the Right , which means Conservatives .

    The main enemy of the Conservatives lies also to the Right of them , which means anti-immigration ethno-nationalists / identitarians
    The main enemy of the Left and Conservatives is perceived by both to lay to the ideologiocal Right of them.
    None of them feel the slightest empathy or affinity or links with their own historical peoples or cultures or any wish to defend or preserve them

  • Eric Arthewright

    The British Establishment has had its front teeth knocked out by the election of Jeremy Corbyn as Labour leader.

  • grutchyngfysch

    Nick, not all of us who describe ourselves as conservative are unfettered libertarians who believe that everything Thatcher did was brilliant, that capitalism uninformed by any form of social conscience is solely a force for good, or that there is no role for government in any part of life.

    But what the right tends to be, at least in my experience, is more tolerant of diverse opinions. Yes, we can have blistering rows and do debate fiercely our positions where they differ – but I have only ever encountered the sort of censorious piety which says that there is only once acceptable position to hold, and that those who do not are morally compromised, from the Left. You won’t always be welcome on the Right, but nobody will force you to leave.

    • Ed O’Meara

      I like your version of The Right, but in my experience a Rightwinger will only ever admit to their views after a few drinks or just keep stonily silent!

      • Dan O’Connor

        Which just goes to show that the 60’s baby boomer campus hippies became the self ordained sole arbiters of right. wrong , good , evil and morality in the West .

        • Ed O’Meara

          True, or it’s something to do with immigration and is based on what they’ve overheard from their cleaner (true story!)

      • grutchyngfysch

        Ha – well there’s truth in that. Perversely, I ended up far more willing to be open about being right-wing by working in an environment where literally everybody else was strongly left-wing.

        • Ed O’Meara

          Oh God, yeah. I’m generally Left wing, but a lot of people I hang out with are the most shrill Lefties and it puts me right off. I’ve also worked at a TV production company where everybody was Rightwing and I could barely keep my lunch down.

          Might need a new classification system.

          • grutchyngfysch

            Yeah, I’d imagine that would get obnoxious pretty quickly too. It’s one of the reasons I really don’t like having useless opposition parties – the best government is done in fear of a strong opposition.

  • Dan O’Connor

    So perhaps Cohen will move from the ” anti -racist ” ( code for =anti-White ) Left, and over to the ” anti-racist ” ( code for = anti-White ) Conservatives ?

    Big step huh ?

  • jmshigham

    But you can’t give up on them, Nick, as they won’t let you. They shove it down our throats every day and get madder as hatters every week.

  • http://www.lauramarcus.com Laura Marcus

    In tears. Literally in tears. Thanks Nick.

  • Peter Hill

    According to Nick, ‘Owen Jones … seems to have abandoned journalism to become Jeremy Corbyn’s PR man’ – well most of the media establishment seem to have abandoned journalism to smear Corbyn so I guess this is fair enough?

  • Cheradenine

    As with the neo-conservatism movement you mention in the article, many of these ruptures occur when Jewish journalists or political activists recognise that their ethnic interests are no longer compatible with the movement they were once a part of.

  • Gdog

    What a load of garbage. So obvious that the author is just doggedly pursuing the Zionist agenda of his media and political masters. Many people, like him, are afraid of progressive politics that doesn’t pander to the Zionist lobby and their thinly veiled campaigns to cause chaos in the Middle East. Long live Corbyn and other REAL politicians!

    • Blazeaway

      Some people suspect that anti-Semitism lies behind the claimed ‘anti-zionism’. It’s certainly true of the company that many leftwingers keep.

      • Spenglersdog

        Are there many Zionists who aren’t jewish? It’s not like a multiracial movement is it? So if you aim at it you are going to hit a jew I would think.

      • Gdog

        Nonsense. That’s merely the deflective Israeli propaganda which suggests that anyone who disagrees with Israel and Zionism hates Jews and Judaism when the two are not the same. It’s the same as saying that anyone who disagrees with America hates Christians. If you actually buy that argument you are probably susceptible to most of the garbage propaganda that is eschewed by western corporate media.

  • Mat Zemille

    Islam has poisoned the world and successfully managed to bottle victimhood and sell it to the gullible left. Tell me I’m wrong!

  • mrs1234

    The article, ‘Few feminists dare criticise Islam.To see why, look at the ones who do’ illustrates where Left wing ideology has taken us. Its cries of ‘racist’ “islamophobe’ etc has had an enormous influence on legislation coming from all parties across the western world. Its influence, while taking on the appearance of care for the downtrodden, is dark and malign and how any woman or gay person can support the Left in its present guise is beyond me.

    • Gdog

      What the hell are you talking about?

    • Blazeaway

      Good comment.

      I see the left proposes a new law against ‘islamophobia’ which will criminalise free speech which is critical of islam. A sort of new blasphemy law.

      A similar law is also proposed by Theresa May.

      So any woman, gay, man etc who criticises islam will be in clink.

      Truly the left has loft its moral compass.

      • GraveDave

        Er – no… it was the Tories proposed it first because they thought it would win them a few votes from Muslims. .

        Theresa May says Anti-muslim hate crime would be a more …

        http://www.independent.co.uk › News › UK › Crime

        5 Apr 2015 – To Defeat Extremism’ made to the Foundation for Peace in London,Theresa May suggested that Anti- Muslim hate crimes would be given their …

        Theresa May backs down in college ‘hate preachers’ row …

        http://www.theguardian.com › Politics › Theresa May

        4 Jul 2015 – Theresa May backs down in college ‘hate preachers’ row. Home Office responds to criticism over how universities could apply ban on radical …
        Theresa May wants police to record all hate crimes against …

        http://www.express.co.uk › News › UK

        6 Apr 2015 – POLICE forces will collect statistics on hate crimes committed against Muslims, the Tories propose if they win the General Election.

      • Rupert Rivett

        Well Labour has found it’s moral compass now in Corbyn. Sadly the Conservatives have a faulty compass pointing them in the direction of thinking that Food banks are just an acceptable part of prosperity of the majority etc etc etc.

  • http://stanliness.com/ Fosha13

    Congratulations on your latest victory. Defeating puberty is a bitch.
    Welcome to adult life.

  • MatthewMezey

    I just wrote this blog about a new movement of bureaucracy-free, management-free organisations that could be a more inspiring model for Jeremy Corbyn… or the Conservatives!

    Policy Exchange, IPPR, Compass etc are slowly beginning to notice..

    It’s titled: ‘The hot management trend of self-organising workplaces without managers: will Left or Right be first to embrace it?’

    http://www.enliveningedge.org/columns/the-hot-management-trend-of-self-organising-workplaces-without-managers-will-left-or-right-be-first-to-embrace-it/

    • Sten vs Bren

      “‘The hot management trend of self-organising workplaces without managers: will Left or Right be first to embrace it?'”

      The left embraced that about a hundred and fifty years ago.

      But it’s not a ‘management trend’.

  • http://www.ukipforbritain.co.uk/ ukipforbritainwebsite

    That’s it – I’m resigning from the Labour Party!

    • Sten vs Bren

      How will they know?

      • http://www.ukipforbritain.co.uk/ ukipforbritainwebsite

        They’ll feel a gaping hole in their consciences!

  • new_number_2

    ‘I am middle-class and won’t suffer under the coming decade of majority Tory rule. Millions need a centre-left alternative’

    All the leadership candidates apart from Corbyn supported austerity and cuts to welfare, which disproves what Cohen is saying.

  • http://snickersnackbaby.blogspot.com/ David Ferguson

    Better late than never. Especially his point about the left helping secular forces in the Muslim world. That lack is the greatest evidence that the left is insincere about its convictions and proof of the fact that there is no such thing as “…the better angels of the left’s nature…”.

    Still, bravo to Cohen. He will suffer consequences.

    • GraveDave

      The ‘I’ve left the Left’ thing – doesn’t mean to say he’s about to join the bloody Monday club.

      • http://snickersnackbaby.blogspot.com/ David Ferguson

        True, true, but it is so *rare* to hear anything approaching sanity from leftists. Almost enough to give you hope.

    • Gdog

      The difference is simple. The current right leaning, corporate aligned western governments provide arms and training to terrorist organisations in the Middle East and North Africa to destabilise them for resource security. Fact. The more progressive left leaning movements who are not aligned with corporate interests pursue self-determination for Middle Eastern countries. Fact. The moral superior of the two is blatantly obvious, unfortunately money is more important to most people than morality, whether they choose to admit it or not.

      • http://snickersnackbaby.blogspot.com/ David Ferguson

        Thanks, Mr. Corbyn,

        Starry eyed utopians such as yourself now get to test out your bloody (in the American sense, not the British sense) theories once more because … Fact: seven years of the morally superior left-leaning progressivism, led by Obama has delivered Syria (let’s start with that) into the soft hands and benign intentions of Putin.

        Let’s see how Mother Russia’s superior morality helps set the Syrian people on a course of self determination.

        You left-wing useful idiots are about to get schooled, again, Stalin-style in a course of how nations that unashamedly assert their self interest get it done.

  • mrsjosephinehydehartley

    Taking the long view backwards; perhaps one way of helping Nick get a better comprehension of the situation might be to consider the bible. In the beginning Adam and Eve were in the garden as happy stakeholders, equally and in truth. There were two trees, one of life and one of knowledge. Contrary to their best available advice they decided to throw all their eggs into the basket of educational knowledge tree. We are not told if they took any notice of the tree of life at all.

    With labour at the moment, the uneducated fanatics bring back that vital tree of life force that has been missing for so long because we turned a blind eye to its reality, reality that is happening here and now..and the control freaks will do well to reorientate away from the wrecked knowledge economy, and go with the flow of democratic truths.

  • john

    “Nick: Give us a couple of thousand words on why the Left is dead”. Usual crap will do, Tnakns,”

  • Marie Severin

    Quote
    The causes I most care about — secularism, freedom of speech, universal human rights

    They’re not left-wing beliefs Nick – they just mean you are not a cunt. Have a medal for believing in free speech. You have been thinking you’re on the left because you don’t hate gays and would never say the N word.

    Quote
    So, for what it is worth, this is my resignation letter from the left.

    Er, you were fired ages ago, didn’t you get the letter?

  • John P Hughes

    All very clear – can Nick Cohen however discuss why the centre-left failed to establish itself securely in opposition to Margaret Thatcher, when it held many cards and a replacement party, the SDP, was created? There was the opportunity to have a party in the Biritish political tradition which was not inflitrated by the extreme left or subject to any control by the Trade Unions. It did not succeed.
    Now we don’t have the residual Lib-Dems either (at least in any number).

  • MikeF

    ” One Jewish Labour supporter told me, ‘I feel like a gay man in the Tory party just after they’ve passed Section 28.”
    The much reviled Section 28 legislation made it illegal to use public funds to propagate the idea that the conventional nuclear family was not the ideal environment to bring up children. It did not seek to victimise homosexual people simply for being homosexual and it certainly did not aim to legitimise violence against them. As such the comments of Mr Cohen’s Labour acquaintance indicate he still has a way to go before he gains a proper perspective on events – the comparison he makes is, frankly, at best facile.

    • Sten vs Bren

      That’s right; the gay people in the Tory Party voted FOR Section 28.

      • MikeF

        I suspect a few of them did. They may have disliked the left using them as an excuse for an agenda that actually had nothing to do with the dignity and security of homosexual people.

        • Sten vs Bren

          You are all mixed up, mate. Section 28 was a part of the Tory agenda. They gay Tories voted FOR it.

          There was no counter agenda; it was part of a Parliamentary Bill.

    • Gdog

      Jewish people shouldn’t feel unwelcome at all. Zionists probably should though and rightly so.

  • Sten vs Bren

    “Leftists who stray from virtue are defeated dissidents, who bend under the pressure to conform”

    That’s the closest to the truth. You can see that in the Christopher Hitchens story. Because he was a Trot, he felt he had to go in to bat for some pretty loserish causes. That takes its toll. When he got a sniff of a replacement text ie the Constitution of USA, he went for it like a shot. No more losing, he thought. He ended up supporting the Iraq War.

  • emersonushc13

    marxism cares about people like pedophilia cares about children. A person’s true beliefs are the worst ones they’re not against. Show me a socialist who’s against stalinism and I’ll give each of you one internet monies.

    • Sten vs Bren

      Obviously there were thousands upon thousands of socialists who were against Stalinism. He had had them shot or imprisoned. Read history.

      Monies?

      • emersonushc13

        Do you or anyone you know say anything negative about mao, stalin, or even pol pot? Of course not, because marxism plays into your genocidal revenge fantasies and tells you your art, music, or academic talent makes the true ruling class. It takes millions of broken eggs to make utopia’s scrambled egg breakfast! Marxism cares about people like pedophilia cares about children. Sorry Sten.

    • Steve Larson

      That is quite foolish, even us not of the left can think of Socialists and even communists that were against Stalin.

      Even leaders of the USSR condemned Stalin.

      Read that you might be free.

      • suchan104

        The use of Stalinism to illustrate the point was over the top, but socialism and personal liberty are, by definition, incompatible.

        • Sten vs Bren

          Not by definition. As you assert.

  • Lapin

    Nick has lots of concern for the Jews but none for native British people or, more generally, Europeans.

    Pieces on “white privilege” are the 21st Century equivalent of the Third Reich anti-Jewish newsletters and judging by the Twitter accounts of young “people of colour” in this country, we native British are loathed. I see young Muslim women denouncing white people as slavers and then when someone pointed out that Muslims were the biggest slavers she accused him of “trivialising the suffering of West Africans under white supremacy.” Pointing out to young blacks and Arabs that white people ended slavery results in blocking and I see young people saying “ewww, old white people” and mocking their white “friends” for being “mayo” (mayonnaise, a slur against white people to say we are “basic” and have no culture).

    Our education system has done this by highlighting the Holocaust (yes, young Muslims and blacks also use that against white children and teens as evidence of their being “evil”), slavery, colonialism etc while saying nothing about other cultures except for how wonderful and vibrant they are.

    Nick was one of those who called for Britain to “let all the refugees in”. As a shrinking demographic, knowing what happens to minorities in the third world countries these people come from, knowing that these people are hostile towards whites and that the left wing structures of society ensure these grievances are constantly stoked… why does he wish what will end in a bloodbath on us?

    And we have nowhere to escape to because it has been engineered to happen in every white country on Earth. Why doesn’t he care about what effect Corbyn’s open door policy would have upon native Britons? At least the Jews have Israel to go to and they make damn well sure that demographically they will always be the top dogs and in no danger of becoming dispossessed minorities again.

  • Colonel Mustard

    Looks like another biter bit.

  • David Merritt

    Cohen makes some good points but he spoils his argument by resorting to hyperbole and invective, and by lumping ‘the left’ together as a single entity. Does that mean he now disowns every ‘left’ idea and embraces ‘right’ ideas? This is a confused and confusing article.

    • Hegelman

      “Cohen makes some good points but he spoils his argument by resorting to hyperbole and invective”

      That’s Cohen. You can’t ask the wolf to be a vegetarian.

    • Rupert Rivett

      No this is a propaganda article sewing the seeds of alternative power.

  • Hegelman

    “[Feminists] were outraged this week when Corbyn gave all his top jobs to men. I
    have every sympathy. But really, what did they expect from a man who
    never challenged the oppression of women in Iran when he was a guest on
    the state propaganda channel? You cannot promote equality at home while
    defending subjugation abroad and it was naive to imagine that Corbyn
    would try.”

    Here again, Cohen puts on brilliant display his talent for fairness.

    Top jobs…If I had been asked to name what were the four most important ministries in this country I would have picked the Exchequer, Defence, Health, and Education. It so happens that all these except the Exchequer have been assigned to women by Corbyn in his Shadow Cabinet, which has female majority to boot.

    Of course, there is an outcry about “Great Offices of State” all having been assigned to men. This lofty and vintage expression sniffily excludes, we are scornfully instructed, Education and Health, and includes the Foreign Office and the Home Office. It’s a malodorously archaic notion of government, implying that health and education are not important because they are about the unwashed masses, while the Foreign Office is high table because it is about deploying imperial power grandly. Well, wake up, gentlemen and ladies: the Empah went out some time ago.

    • The_greyhound

      rambling nonsense. corbyn is a urine-scented geriatric dolt, peddling his superannuated trotskyism to slack-mouthed halfwits.

      • Sten vs Bren

        Ah; out and out age based prejudice. That’s sure to see you through!

  • https://storify.com/charlesfrith/is-charles-frith-a-mensch Charles Frith

    Nick Cohen was never left. He’s a Zionist mouthpiece. End of.

    • suchan104

      In the absence of any intellectual prowess, bring out your anti-Semitism.

      • Lapin

        Also, most “neo-conservatives” are not conservative at all, they merely are leftists who love Israel and want to bomb the Middle East.

        • SClanding

          Thanks for the Stormfront perspective.

          This person seems surprised to find that Leftists would devolve into bigotry and associate themselves so easily with the worst of the worst in society. worldwide.

          How he missed the Lefts love of every murderous regime of the 20th century from Soviet Russia to Maoist China to the Kymer Rouge and the Vietcong is a mystery.

          The rest of us figured out decades ago that
          Leftists are always the worst people in every room not withstanding their haughty self-righteousness.

    • SClanding

      I think you proved his point……Congrats.

      Do you know that you are a bigot?

      • kitten

        Do you know that so is Nick?

    • pobjoy

      Whether he was left or not is not very relevant, though he would like it to be. What is relevant is that he was once recognisable as a journalist. He’s stuffed that, now.

  • SClanding

    Dang…..at least this fool seems to want to escape the insanity which is leftism.

    Leftism always leads to Soviet Russia, Maoist China, and the Kymer Rouge killing fields……just thank heavens for the USA, Great Britain and its large contingent of Christians and other knowledgeable leaders like Reagan, Thatcher along a host of other brilliant stalwarts in the Center and Right whom fought for decades against the evil spread of progressivismleftism which was the scourge of decent civilization for over 75 years in the 20th century.

    Now these same destructive forces are trying a different tactic and this author has run up on some of its less subtle adherents….

  • Nick

    Fascism has never been a right ring effort. The right generally tend to believe in individual liberty and autonomy, and reject government control over people’s lives. Fascism uses the strong arm of government and terror to manipulate people and businesses to do their bidding. Thus it was during the NAZI era, thus it is now.

    Check out how the fascist gay lobby ruins people’s lives. Check out how Obama supports huge business that, in return for his regulations that make it impossible for new business to compete with them, implement his agenda.

    The Fascists of the 30’s always felt it was best for government and business to form partnerships to advance the cause of the government and to enrich both. So it is today.

    • pobjoy

      The right generally tend to believe in individual liberty and autonomy

      For a small minority.

      • Nick

        Balderdash.

        • pobjoy

          What right wing intellect.

  • NorthernFirst

    Praise be.

    I’ve been saying this for over a decade now.

  • Stuck-Record

    I suppose it’s better late than never.

    I bought ‘What’s Left?’ when it first came out, and it is a masterly dissection of the mind of the oppressive delusional left.

    But I wondered then as I wonder now, why Cohen was so surprised by the contemptible thought processes and actions of authoritarians. When you declare yourself as ‘good’, then everyone else automatically becomes ‘evil’. THIS has always been the failure of the modern left. They have deliberately constructed a version of morality that equates leftist thought with good, and non-leftist thought with evil.

    Add in thirty years of uncontested control of the education system and arts and you have a generation of nitwits who think that a man who cuts heads off for his Sky-God is to be empathised with, but a man who believes in balancing the books is unremittingly evil.

    Nick, if you want to ask: How did we get here? The answer is two or three generations of people like you.

  • CrassyKnoll

    Mr. Cohen may know a great deal about the British left, but he knows nothing about the American right. Because if we were ‘conservatives’ in the Continental sense we’d still be British.

    No, conservatives in America are conservative of the principles that founded our nation – those of the early liberals, and particularly those of the Scottish Enlightenment – people like Adam Smith, John Locke, Thomas Reid, etc. Our founders were also conservative of many of the principles and laws that made Britain great – something that Edmund Burke – another spiritual father of the American right – recognized.

    Where we differ is that we rejected much that followed shortly on in the form of the French enlightenment, and also the communitarianism, and utilitarianism that led to the formation of the modern left – a movement that always and everywhere eventually proves itself to be totalitarian. Something that Cohen, apparently at the end of a bad pipe-dream, is just waking up to face.

    Should have listened to Burke.

    • The_greyhound

      It’s a grave insult to claim that Locke was in any way Scottish. His genius was specifically English.

      • Sten vs Bren

        If you read more carefully, you will see that the OP is talking about the principles of the people who founded America and how they were influenced by early liberals such as Locke and the Scottish Enlightenment.

        Not that Locke was Scottish.

        • The_greyhound

          No, my reading is correct, yours wrong.

          • Sten vs Bren

            No, Locke was English and nobody has claimed otherwise.

            You are not really cut out for this reading lark, are you? Try your fuzzy felt again.

          • CrassyKnoll

            Perhaps my phrasing could have been more precise – ‘those of the early liberals like John Locke, and particularly those of the Scottish Enlightenment – people like Adam Smith, and Thomas Reid…’

            But it does seem a minor quibble, at least linguistically, if not to those obsessed with which side of Hadrian’s wall ones’ ancestors inhabited. At the time of American independence all being considered essentially British…

    • Rupert Rivett

      Well CrassyKnoll I think we should resurrect Thomas Paine in response to your statement here and say.

      The abilities of man must fall short on one side or the other, like too scanty a blanket when you are abed. If you pull it upon your shoulders, your feet are left bare; if you thrust it down to your feet, your shoulders are uncovered.

  • amoose1959

    The fox has confronted a roaring lion and whimpers. Just as predicted in Burnham’s Suicide of The West. The progressive’s obsessive march towards utopia is really a march towards chaos.

  • ChrisW

    Come on Nick, stay and fight. Yes, there are some nasty people on the left, but you will find there are more than a few on the right (just look at the Daily Mail comments section, any story, any day). Be brave and fight for those big ideas – don’t just walk away.

  • kitten

    Calling you a Tory isn’t levelling hate, mate, watch a childish attitude to take.

    New Labour tried to redefine what left wing was, so people like you thought you were, people like me definitely thought I wasn’t.

    Turns out New Labour aren’t left wing, so neither are you, and I am.

    • The_greyhound

      Gibberish.

      You aren’t left-wing, merely sub-literate.

      • kitten

        Says the thicko that fools for YouGov propaganda.

        • The_greyhound

          You really can’t construct an English sentence at all can you?

          Obnoxious pinko retard.

          • Sten vs Bren

            There is an unintentional irony in your message, you great prune.

          • The_greyhound

            If I practice irony, I intend it, you preening, simpering, virtue-signalling blockhead.

          • Sten vs Bren

            “You really can’t construct an English sentence at all can you?”

            What a pig of a sentence.

  • Sten vs Bren

    “this is my resignation letter from the left. I have no idea who I should send it to”

    We know that you have no idea who to send it to. That’s why you’re not on the left. No comrades.

  • TheBigPBlog

    “They were outraged this week when Corbyn gave all his top jobs to men.” – just one of the many sentences of bile, propoganda this article is repeating from mainstream right-wing press.

    This could have been a good article – but then it went ahead and forgot to put in any accurate substance.
    I don’t think the “left” will be sad to lose you, mate. And who knew we had to wear football team colours of our political opinions, anyway?

    • Scylla

      Didn’t he do just that?

  • The Grim Reaper

    Neocon is the favoured code word for the Judeophobic Left. You see it every time they post their angry bedwetting missives. Martin Bright writes about being approached by one of Corbyn’s team to ask his views on how the Dear Leader might copy with the “Jewish problem”. Yes, actual words quoted. Perhaps they will hold their own Wannsee Conference sometime soon? Endlösung?

    • Sten vs Bren

      “Neocon is the favoured code word for the Judeophobic Left. ”

      No, ‘Neocon’ is the explicit word for those Yank crooks like the Bushes and that gang.

  • McRobbie

    Isn’t it sad that what was originally a great institution for the working man has become…well, corbynised…. similar to being lobotomized.

    • pobjoy

      Come on. The Spectator was never a great institution for the working man. Not directly, anyway. It once provided sensible moral cautions for British employers; but that went, long ago. It’s now the paradise of loons.

      Poor Nick must be very, very boracic to have to invent this.

  • gélert

    Better late than never, Nick.

  • kitten

    “The half-educated fanatics are in control now”

    What a patronising, pompous arse you are.

    You talk of menacing, you’ve been a menace ever since Corbyn decided to stand.
    Now you’re throwing your dummy out the pram.

    • Harry Pond

      Throwing petty insults has always been the stock response of the truculent lefty.

      • Sten vs Bren

        “petty insults … truculent lefty”

        🙂 Classic! You great nit.

      • kitten

        Sorry you must be confused, Nick has admitted he’s not a lefty.

    • The_greyhound

      In some cases make that “quarter-educated” fanatics.

      Mouthy soap-dodging lamebrains who have found their hero in a trotskyite fossil with a lifetime of consistent failure to look back on, and nothing to look forward to, except his swift replacement.

      • kitten

        No intellectual counter-claim, just a nasty, witless attack.

        • The_greyhound

          Since you were merely venting your bile, as usual, no counter was necessitated, beyond pointing out that you are behaving like a polecat.

          • kitten

            You’re a hateful misogynistic.
            That much is obvious.
            Fuck off and stop trying to bully women.

          • The_greyhound

            You really are a contemptible apology for a human being, aren’t you?

          • Scylla

            Why have you wheeled out misogyny? Oh, because you can.

          • kitten

            Why have you come to gang up with a misogynistic?

            Oh, because you can!

        • ViolinSonaten b minor.

          Oh come on little moggy. Just wait until the thuggish outdated
          unions start un- leasing their rabid poisoned bile.
          Jeremy isn’t fresh he’s been around for over thirty years,
          protesting on the back benches. And as for his shadow chancellor who supports the IRA- what more can be said.

          • kitten

            If you want to look at thuggish and outdated try reading that right wing chauvinists comments to me.

  • dirtyw33ker

    “Labour people who have fought Tories all their lives”

    If you consider fought to be “cosied up yes-men” then, yeah, fair point.

  • Henry Krinkle

    “Jeremy Corbyn is a patriot – he would never have waged the illegal war that killed my son” – Reg Keys.

    He’d probably be described as a left wing fanatic by Nick Cohen, the war propagandist and cheerleader for Tony Blair.

    • Athelstane

      No, he wouldn’t have waged that war. But he certainly supports the ones being waged right now by Hamas, ISIS and, yes, Putin.

  • dan’l

    Too late. Islam is swallowing the country and the natives are too pc drenched to notice.

  • Ivan Ewan

    Hi Cohen. Welcome to the club. There are no prizes here, no dinner parties and there’s no champagne. You will sometimes be called Hitler, but you’ll get used to it. As long as it means you won’t keep up the practise of ending otherwise lucid articles with a quick “by the way the right wing eats kittens”, it’s all fine by me.

  • Sandy_Jamieson

    You know of course you’ve just become the favoirite hate figure for the Cyber-Socs.

  • http://atlantarofters.blogspot.com/ The Sanity Inspector

    Christopher Hitchens would approve.

    • Sten vs Bren

      He died a lefty, according to his lights.

      • http://atlantarofters.blogspot.com/ The Sanity Inspector

        More dissented from than dissenting.

  • Hopwood

    I feel the same way, Nick. Tired to the very core with it all. The left now seems all about childish delight in sneering, attacking and destroying. Nothing substantially constructive remains. Corbyn is the lowest point so far though I have every expectations that the status-obsessed bullies of the left, the Galloway types so weirdly filled with inchoate rage, will seek to go lower still.

    • Rupert Rivett

      Hopwood do you have rage in your stomach about a rich society like ours having a growing number of citizens now living on our streets? Do you have rage that weapons we have made in the UK are used to create wars that now are causing the issues we see in Hungry that we will have to deal with as the people flock to our lands for safety. Do you have rage deep deep in your stomach that those disabled both physically and mentally have been put into real trouble with the deductions made from social security payments. I have a long list of lefty concerns just wondering if you identify with any of them. Or maybe can you see why Jeremy has had such tremendous support. I am not sneering or have any delight in responding to your point but I am just wondering in your tired state if you see the concerns of the left and can see any steps that the conservatives are making to improve the situation. Maybe you’d like to start with why in a country so rich, we have so many having to go to charity run food banks ? Or what about commenting on the fact that Mr Osborne cutting disabled benefits when there are so many large companies not pay their taxes. I would love to here your constructive points of view.

  • Severn

    the Labour party has just endorsed an apologist for Putin’s imperial aggression

    Labor and the Left were for many decades apologists for people who make Putin look like Mother Theresa – Lenin, Stalin, Brezhnev, Castro and so on – so this particular line of argument by Cohen is more than a little odd.

    • Sten vs Bren

      Castro’s ok. He gave you lot ‘one hell of a beating’.

      • Severn

        You could have just written ‘I’m a dumb bigot” and saved yourself some keystrokes.

        • Sten vs Bren

          He repelled your invasion. That’s got to count for something. Not everybody wants to be invaded by US Marines and CIA creeps.

          You do understand that, don’t you?

          • Severn

            Even more keystrokes dedicated to saying “I’m a dumb bigot” and worshiping a brutal dictator. You’re a rather typical member of the Left.

          • Sten vs Bren

            It is not ‘leftism’ to repel a foreign invasion. It’s admirable, bearing in mind the respective sizes of the nations.

            Sort yourself out!

          • Ivan Ewan

            So, I’m going with reductio ad Hitlerum because I’m lazy, but do you mean to say that the Nazis were “admirable” when they repelled the British invasion of Vichy France in 1940?

            Or don’t they count since they weren’t threatening us with nuclear annihilation at the time?

          • Sten vs Bren

            No, I don’t find the Nazis admirable. What an odd idea. UK and USA were fighting Nazis.

          • Ivan Ewan

            But they repelled a foreign invasion, didn’t they? We British invaded Frankreich, which had been German territory for, oh, practically forever, just like Palestine has been Arab practically forever, and they managed to push is back out through Dunkirk.

            Or does your point about repelling invasions only extend to regimes you like (the communist ones which butcher dissidents)?

          • Sten vs Bren

            It only extends to regimes that I think should be repelled, such as when USA invaded Cuba.

          • Severn

            That Stalin was “admirable” as well, because he repelled a foreign invasion! Any other mass murderers you’re a fan of?

          • Sten vs Bren

            That was an admirable action, too! You lot are so weird.

          • Mark Neil

            While I’m not even sure what Sten is speaking about (and think an assertion like “Castro’s OK” is rather inflammatory, almost trolling), I have to say, you’re the one looking like a typical leftist, with accusations of bigotry used in place of actually arguing a point. So far, the only one who’s provided any details on the topic is Sten.

          • kitten

            How do you explain the RIGHT wingers throwing abuse at me instead of arguing my posts?

            Maybe you’d like to reassess part of your post?

          • Mark Neil

            I can’t speak to a scenario I don’t know. But it’s incredibly rare for the right to use accusations of bigotry, in my experience. Identity politics is very much the purview of the left

          • kitten

            If you’re just focusing on his use of the word bigot that is a different matter.

            However, I have been verbally abused in place of a reasoned counter-argument by a righty, so insults in place of debate is not a tactic monopolized by the left.

          • Mark Neil

            I won’t deny ad homs are used by both sides… as is abuse. But the ad homs used tend to be different, and bigot is most certainly a leftist staple.

          • kitten

            That American won’t appreciate you calling him a leftie.
            ‘Leftie’ is a dirty word in the States.

          • Standish79

            I don’t think those on the right are always paragons of virtue in debate but I do find those on the left are much more likely to resort to dogma, ad hominem attacks, accusations of bigotry, procedural tactics to shut down debate, impolite language, class-based assumptions, casual threats, etc. Of course, there are plenty of reasonable people too, just as there are loons.

          • kitten

            The left are “more likely” to resort to assumptions, ad hominem attacks etc?

            Read all the articles during Corbyns campaign and read the replies I received from the right wingers.

            Bile, abuse, inaccurate assumptions and outright lies have been par for the course from those on the right.

      • http://atlantarofters.blogspot.com/ The Sanity Inspector

        Not half as hard as he gave Cuba’s “class enemies”. Maybe once his regime falls, we can exhume their mass graves, as was done in eastern Europe & the former Soviet Union.

        • Sten vs Bren

          Bit ghoulish. Let ’em rot.

          • http://atlantarofters.blogspot.com/ The Sanity Inspector

            Oh. Thank you.

            Clarity is preferable to agreement. ~ Dennis Prager

          • Sten vs Bren

            ‘This week’s factoid is that the drummer out of ZZ Top is called Frank Beard but he is the one who doesn’t have a beard’ – Steve Wright (in the afternoon).

          • Athelstane

            Stay classy, Sten.

      • Harry Pond

        In what way?

        • Sten vs Bren

          They invaded his country but they failed. In that way.

    • wildcolonialboy

      Utterly nonsensical comment. You only really could make it if you are completely ignorant of the principled opposition to authoritarianism of the Attlee government. Same again for Wilson and Callaghan. They supported socialism at home, and opposition to the Soviets + alliance with America abroad. Retained the nuclear deterrent.

      If you think Labour and the SWP left are the same thing (at least up until this decade) then you really don’t have a clue

  • DissentIsSometimesPatriotic123

    Anyone with any sense has been saying this for years.

    Seriously, when has the British Left *ever* claimed to have stood for “secularism, freedom of speech, universal human rights”?

    How can you stand for secularism and support Hamas? Freedom of speech and support Party of Allah? Universal human rights and support Palestine?

    • Ivan Ewan

      Well they do claim to do so, that’s the absurd thing about it.

      • DissentIsSometimesPatriotic123

        Hamas and Corbyn claim to believe in secularism, freedom of speech and universal human rights?

        • Ivan Ewan

          The left wing does, I thought that was the subject of the comment I was responding to.

          • DissentIsSometimesPatriotic123

            Corbyn and his voters support Hamas.

            Are you seriously claiming that Labour voters support secularism, freedom of speech, and universal human rights?

            Prove it.

          • Ivan Ewan

            I’m not. Please read your original comment, and then my original reply. Repeat until you at last understand what you said and what I said. Until then don’t bother me.

  • Dougy

    Bye then.

    Don’t slam the door on your arse on the way out.

  • PDQuig

    The left are no longer our countrymen. It is not simply a matter of being political opponents. They are the enemy within and will have to be destroyed, not merely defeated.

    • Sten vs Bren

      Come and have a go, if you think you’re hard enough!

      • PDQuig

        In the first wave of attacks on the US, literally millions of your kind will be gone. The rest of us won’t have to lift a finger. Your ideology is suicidal and you and your enclaves are the softest of soft targets.

    • Johnny Foreigner

      People have been saying the same as you, for ages now, they must be defeated, destroyed and removed, but never say how. Liberal Progressive thinking pervades all our institutions, the police, the judiciary, local government, schools and universities, charities like the National Trust and the real big one, all levels of the civil service.

      • PDQuig

        Progressives are, at most, 20 percent of the population. And they have virtually none of the weapons when it comes to crunch time.

  • disqus_sBKZDGKiG8

    Another over-educated fool.

  • Tyrone Slothrop

    At the tender age of eighteen I cast my first vote for George McGovern. I imagined back then that liberalism stood for the freedom of the individual from the crew-cutted, blue-blazered lockstep conformity of conservatism. A decade or two of subsequent real life showed me that the reverse was true. Liberalism as it unfolded demanded a far stricter adherence to a set of approved ideas than conservatism ever did. Political correctness, which at first seemed to me to be merely a clever turn of phrase, eventually revealed itself as a censorious, mind-numbing dumbing down of political discourse where we would be told daily what to think, and God help us if we strayed an inch. This is not the formula for society to make progress in the realm of ideas. Conservatism, for all its warts, makes room for everyone from the libertarian to the neocon, accepting the human race for what it is rather than making of it a laboratory for intellectuals to dabble in.

    • Rupert Rivett

      Those conservative warts are getting bigger by the day. Time for some wart remover !

  • Scylla

    So you were happy with Labour while they were turning us into a welfare dependent, rights obsessed, multi-cultural hole? Thanks a bunch. Too little, too late…an apology would be nice.

    • Rupert Rivett

      Stop complaining, he’s prime for being indoctrinated by the right now to create more food banks, more homelessness and lets not forget attacking those greedy disabled people. The country needs more mega rich not paying their taxes would’t you agree. We need an ever grow disparity between rich and poor and if he can help that is surely power to the conservative call.

  • Lynn Johnston

    I have always found you a sane and lucid voice on the world we are living in today. I have wondered how you manage to maintain your sanity with so many loons on the left. Where do those of us who would vote for an intelligent center left go? Can I say I find the Conservatives I know far politer and more open minded than those I know on the left. One is able to have a genuine debate with them rather than the mind numbing left wing denunciation. I think the present situation with the Labour Party and Jeremy Corbyn is an enormous indictment of the education system in this country. Education systems in democratic countries should teach proper debate of the issues, not this mind blowing simplistic trash. This is a country where someone I know is a close supporter of Comrade Corbyn and she has a History degree and a Law degree from Oxford. The mind boggles. I also hold the BBC accountable. They allow the baying hoards to jeer and howl with views they don’t like and there is no attempt by moderators to condemn this behaviour outright in an attempt to ensure proper debate.

    • kitten

      “One is able to have a genuine debate with them rather than the mind numbing left wing denunciation”

      Maybe you should try reading the comments on these threads.

      You will see its the right that denounced the left and been quick to insult.

    • Michael H Kenyon

      Lefties think a debate involves the throwing around of moralistic and twisted rhetoric to win their argument, when outside their little worlds, it isn’t, and does not win the argument. Though one might this also follows for the British Right, that has not been my experience. Those on the right may be pro- or anti-drug, royalty, guns, capital punishment, etc. Such differences seem to be faced with good manners and an awareness that the range of different arguments means there isn’t a specific solution. This may be different the other side of the Atlantic, where their Conservative media (e.g., Taki’s mag) has a corpus of posters keen on “vice-signalling” (as it were), leading to on-line discussions to degenerate into anti-semitism, who can be more crass about minorities, etc. Note to British Conservatives – keep the moral and intellectual highground.

  • Steven Johnson

    I’m not sure the purpose of this. Are those of us conservative/libertarian to feel sorry for you? A struggling man well into his years, coming to his moral/intellectual senses, now, well into the 21st century? I read this as one long post about ‘me’… poor me. Well so what you old bloke.

    • wildcolonialboy

      It’s rather ironic for you to make a comment about him struggling with sense given you hold to two completely exclusive positions of conservatism and libertarianism.

      Where do you stand on gay marriage? Whichever answer you give has the faint stench of hypocrisy

  • Ken Stratford

    I was open mouthed reading this. It is so out of touch with reality that I don’t know what to say. Poor man!

    • Rupert Rivett

      And then you read the comments and you see that some agree with it.

  • douglas redmayne

    I hope then that those Labour voters repelled by Corbyn defect to UKIP and we get a nationalist left that wants to reverse immigration and Islamification. That would truly help the working classes and anyone who suffers the effects of this Island carrying too many people.

    • Rupert Rivett

      Hi Douglas, It is unlikely those in Labour who dislike Corbyn would go to UKIP they are more likely to join the Green party than join what they don’t like. i.e. those obsessed with fear of others from other lands. It’s funny though if UKIP were so worried about this country carrying too many people maybe they would as a party be the first party that would start talking about the exponential growth of humanity in general ……..This subject alone is they one thing all parties should be talking about but don’t !

      • douglas redmayne

        Rupert, proper greens should be interested in reducing human numbers. Unfortunately many are of the left and prefer a world where fricassee and Asians outnumber whites.

  • EC1 PhD

    I think it is only just beginning to dawn on a lot of people that New Labour under Blair or Labour under Brown were never really Labour at all. The seeds which Labour will reap were sown the day Bad Al organised that ghastly parade of flag waving children of Labour activists welcoming Blair to Number 10 in 1997.

  • Paul Stable

    Watching the left eat itself is rather fun. Better than anything on telly.

  • alan b

    When you can’t milk one party any more, join another.

  • Kaiser Derden

    guess what … when you marched against Thatcher the left was already rotting … now you want to act like you have the moral authority to opine on anything when in fact you never had moral authority and are just as delusional now as when you marched …

    you sir are not middle class … you are just another delusion elitist snob trying desperately to avoid dealing with your youthful ignorance and stupidity …

  • https://sites.google.com/site/deanjackson60/home Dean Jackson

    “If you are a man, you are condemned in language not heard since the fall of Marxist Leninism.”

    What fall of Marxism Leninism would that be, Comrade Nick Cohen? You mean this fall…

    The following is a discovery I made in April regarding the fake collapse of the USSR, and what that fraudulent collapse proves about the institutions of the West…

    When Soviet citizens were liberated from up to 74 years of horrific Marxist oppression on December 26, 1991 there were ZERO celebrations throughout the USSR, proving (1) the ‘collapse’ of the USSR was a strategic ruse; and (2) the political parties of the West were already co-opted by Marxists,* otherwise the USSR (and East Bloc nations) couldn’t have gotten away with the ruse.

    ZERO celebrations, as the The Atlantic article inadvertently informs us…

    http://www.theatlantic.com/photo/2011/12/20-years-since-the-fall-of-the-soviet-union/100214/

    Notice, however, the Kremlin staged demonstrations that took place in Russia (and other Soviet republics) in the years immediately preceding the ‘collapse’, yet ZERO celebrations after the ‘collapse’!

    For more on this discovery see my blog…

    https://sites.google.com/site/deanjackson60/

    Is this the fall of Marxism Leninism you’re talking about, Comrade Nick Cohen…

    A Pictorial Presentation Of The Fraudulent Collapse Of The USSR…

    (1) The Emblem of the Soviet Union atop the Russian State Duma building…

    http://footage.framepool.com/shotimg/qf/544004264-duma-kremlin-palace-russian-flag-red-square.jpg

    Notice that the State Emblem of the Soviet Union is illuminated at night for clear viewing by Muscovites…

    http://www.shutterstock.com/video/clip-3345878-stock-footage-street-traffic-on-okhotny-ryad-and-state-duma-at-evening-in-moscow.html

    …however the coat of arms of the Russian Federation, situated above the door between the fourth and fifth floors, isn’t illuminated, though either side of the heraldic design is illuminated for no apparent purpose other than to highlight the heraldic design’s obsolescence.

    (2) High atop the facade of the Russian Ministry of Foreign Affairs building, the State Emblem of the Soviet Union is Illuminated with pinpoint precision at night…

    http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4149/5168126126_02c5505a79_m.jpg

    (3) The State Emblem of the Soviet Union atop the Russian Ministry of Defense building, including other Soviet era iconography…

    http://static.panoramio.com/photos/large/51802114.jpg

    (4) Soviet Red Stars atop Kremlin towers remain where Stalin placed them in 1935…

    http://rt.com/files/news/37/3d/30/00/russia-ukraine-dialogue-peskov.si.jpg

    (5) Moscow’s Central Post Office employees are still in the dark as to the ‘collapse’ of the USSR in late 1991..

    http://www.wired.com/images_blogs/dangerroom/2012/10/Central_telegraph_Moscow.jpg

    Why, you ask? Click the following link for the answer…

    https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSWwliNXIZONPNidfnkRh6BxX75JS3mQB5Qp0PCgGiYzNI61EF2

    (6) Headquarters of the Russian Federal Security Service, and the Soviet Union’s security service, the KGB…

    https://worldsgreatesttravelblog.files.wordpress.com/2010/01/russia-1021.jpg

    Note the State Emblem of the Soviet Union still over the main door (click picture to enlarge), and hammer and sickle logo still above the clock. And here’s the Lubyanka at nightime…

    http://vindenes.nu/gallery/wp-content/gallery/m419.jpg

    Note illumination of hammer & sickle, and enhanced illumination of area above the main door, where the office of the KGB chief was located (third floor).

    (7) Satellite image of the Volga River cities of Engels, (right), and Saratov (left)…

    http://img-fotki.yandex.ru/get/9504/190708966.8/0_8a367_1ca2f18f_L.jpg

    Engels Air Force Base is east of Engels city, where the two long parallel lines are located…

    http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-w6rMlJAPFXU/UJ7KEuTD1FI/AAAAAAAABnE/9JkaNrXYY28/s1600/RUSSIA-ENGEL.jpg

    Notice that Engels city and adjacent air base were named after Marxist “hero” Friedrich Engels, but the names were never changed after Russians were “liberated” from Soviet tyranny in December 1991 with the ‘collapse’ of the USSR.

    (8) The province of Leningrad Oblast is still named in honor of the great Russian persecutor (and Marxist “hero”), who despised and cruelly stamped out Russian culture…

    http://www.russianlessons.net/russia/leningrad/russia-leningrad.gif

    (9) The province of Kaliningrad Oblast is still named after Marxist “hero” Mikhail Kalinin, nominal head of the USSR, 1922-1946…

    http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/59/Kaliningrad_in_Russia.svg/1181px-Kaliningrad_in_Russia.svg.png

    (10) Red Star, the Official newspaper of the Soviet Union’s Ministry of Defense…

    http://www.callsignalpha.co.uk/newspaper.jpg

    Note the Soviet era title (Red Star) and the four Soviet emblems (representing awards) to the left of the masthead, the outer emblem displaying Vladimir Lenin. Now, click the following link to view the official newspaper of the Russian Ministry of Defense…

    http://www.redstar.ru/

    The newspaper is still called Red Star(!) and still has the four Soviet emblems with Vladimir Lenin still present!

    (11) Soviet roundel still on Russian military aircraft…

    http://theuspatriot.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/Russian-fighter-jets1.jpg

    (12) Soviet era Communist emblem (the Soviet red star) still attached to the bows of Russian naval vessels…

    http://global.fncstatic.com/static/managed/img/fn-latino/news/Russian%20Naval%20Ship.jpg

    (13) The hated hammer & sickle logo still used by Aeroflot, purpose being to remind Russians when they travel abroad to be careful what they say to foreigners concerning the ‘collapse’ of the USSR and who’s still in control of the ‘former’ USSR…

    https://web.archive.org/web/20150329150207im_/http://www.airplane-pictures.net/images/uploaded-images/2013-8/31/316500.jpg

    (14) The brigades of the Armed Forces of Ukraine never destroyed their detested Soviet banners, nor did Kiev order the armed forces to destroy the reviled Soviet era banners …

    http://blouinnews.com/sites/default/files/styles/640×432/public/images/story/2014_03_04/7f095050f5b1431d027e102cb4b5d681.jpeg

    …and the left side of the Soviet banner…

    http://www.ottawacitizen.com/news/cms/binary/9577387.jpg?size=640×420

    Conclusion:

    The West will form new political parties where candidates are vetted for Marxist ideology, the use of the polygraph to be an important tool for such vetting. Then the West can finally liberate the globe of vanguard Communism.

    ————————-

    * The failed socialist inspired and controlled pan-European revolutions that swept the continent in 1848(1) thought Marxists and socialists a powerful lesson, that lesson being they couldn’t win overtly,(2) so they adopted the tactic of infiltration of the West’s political parties/institutions. In the case of the United States…(continue reading at DNotice)…

    https://sites.google.com/site/deanjackson60/now-you-see-me-now-you-don-t

    Now you know why not one political party in the West requested verification of the collapse of the USSR, and the media failed to alert your attention to this fact, including the ‘alternative’ media. When determining whether the ‘former’ USSR is complying with arms control treaties, what does the United States do to confirm compliance? Right, the United States sends into the ‘former’ USSR investigative teams to VERIFY compliance, yet when it’s the fate of the West that’s at stake should the collapse of the USSR be a ruse, what does the United States do to confirm the collapse? Nothing!

    The fraudulent ‘collapse’ of the USSR (and East Bloc) couldn’t have been pulled off until both political parties in the United States (and political parties elsewhere in the West) were co-opted by Marxists, which explains why verification of the ‘collapse’ was never undertaken by the West, such verification being (1) a natural administrative procedure (since the USSR wasn’t occupied by Western military forces); and (2) necessary for the survival of the West. Recall President Reagan’s favorite phrase, “Trust, but verify”.

    It gets worse–the ‘freed’ Soviets and West also never (1) de-Communized the Soviet Armed Forces of its Communist Party officer corps, which was 90% officered by Communist Party members; and (2) arrested/de-mobilized the 6-million vigilantes that assisted the Soviet Union’s Ministry of the Interior and police control the populations of the larger cities during the period of ‘Perestroika’ (1986-1991)!

    There can be no collapse of the USSR (or East Bloc nations) without…

    Verification, De-Communization and De-mobilization.

    The West never verified the collapse of the USSR because no collapse occurred, since if a real collapse had occurred the West would have verified it, since the survival of the West depends on verification. Conversely, this proves that the political parties of the West were co-opted by Marxists long before the fraudulent collapse of the USSR, since the survival of the West depends on verification.

    The above means that the so-called ‘War on Terror’ is an operation being carried out by the Marxist co-opted governments of the West in alliance with the USSR and other Communist nations, the purpose being to (1) destroy the prominence of the West in the eyes of the world, where the West is seen (i) invading nations without cause; (ii) causing chaos around the globe; and (iii) killing over one-million civilians and boasting of torture; (2) close off non-Russian supplies of oil for export, thereby increasing the price of oil, the higher price allowing oil exporting Russia to maintain economic stability while she modernizes and increases her military forces; (3) destroy the United States Armed Forces via the never-ending ‘War on Terror’; the ultimate purpose of the aforementioned to (4) bring about the demise of the United States in the world, opening up a political void to be filled by a new pan-national entity composed of Europe and Russia (replacing the European Union), a union ‘From the Atlantic to Vladivostok’; which will (5) see the end of NATO.

    Now you know how Bolshevik Russia survived in 1917; how the West ‘lost’ China to the Communists in 1949; why the Eisenhower administration turned a deaf ear to the anti-Communist Hungarian uprising in 1956; why the Eisenhower administration in 1959 was indifferent to the Castro brothers’ Communist fidelity, actually used the CIA to overthrow the Batista government; why the Nixon administration abandoned Taiwan for Communist China, and signed treaties/provided economic aid to the USSR; why the Nixon administration refused to tell the American People that over 50% of North Vietnamese NVA regiments were actually Chinese People’s Liberation Army soldiers (attired in NVA uniforms, and proving that the Sino/Soviet Split was a ruse, as KGB defector Major Anatoliy Golitsyn told the West back in 1962), thereby (1) ensuring the Vietnam War would be lost; (2) destroying the prominence of the United States abroad and at home; (3) breeding distrust between the American people and their government; and (4) securing Communist victories in Southeast Asia. Working in the background within the political parties of the United States and Great Britain were Marxist agents doing their best to (1) ensure the survival of Communist nations when they popped up; and (2) sabotage any policies that would bring down a Communist nation. That’s why after the fake collapses of the East Bloc nations and USSR there was no mandatory Western verification process to ensure the Communists weren’t still in control.

  • PrinceofWhitebread

    Yep, the Left is now a religion, with its own articles of faith and its own swift attack of heresy. Glad this guy realized he needs to get out of the cult.

  • Marie Macfarlane

    The SWP is Trotskyist not Leninist.

    • Solage 1386

      I thought they were Stalinist.

  • mickey667

    Nick. I feel what you say deeply. I am on the Left and this saddens me very much that you have written this, while understandable.

    However you leave out the permanent and growing anti-authoritarian left. It is young, well established and baulks at the relations with reactionaries and blunt anti-imperialist nonsense of ‘The left’ you talk about.

    Populated by technology futurists, anarchists and anti-authoritarian leftists of all stripes they do have links with secular forces of the Middle East. Many are in Kobane now. Some (a small number) are actually fighting there against ISIS.

    This predominates on campuses and in techno-workplaces. Don;t give up on the left, give up on the authoritarian old left. Its stale. Come to us, come home to a left of the future.

    • wildcolonialboy

      Are there any websites you could point me to?

      My feeling is that the only people on the “true left” or anything resembling it are often what are usually called the New Atheists. They are solid on social issues, they oppose Islamic fascism but they also oppose the worst conservative and reactionary elements

    • Solage 1386

      The new left sound just as nuts as the old. Bet they’re all middle-class too. Young people should reject both left and right, and free their minds.

  • Terenc Blakely

    “The shift of left-wing thought towards movements it would once have denounced as racist, imperialist and fascistic has been building for years. ”

    Sorry dude, the left has always been racist, imperialist and fascistic. They’ve just become so obvious about it in recent years that you finally noticed. I’m sure there are other leftists in your situation but are so reluctant to leave the ‘cool’ group and/or admit that conservatives were actually right about so many things that they hold their noses and continue on.

    I’m not sure about European conservatives but US conservatives are all about smaller, less intrusive government. How that gets equated to ‘fascist’ in the minds of leftists is boggling.

    • wildcolonialboy

      Conservatives are often completely schizophrenic in this respect. They claim to be free-market / small-government, and opposed to government intrusion, and then go and oppose gay marriage.

      • Terenc Blakely

        Opposing gay marriage isn’t the same as expanding government to control pretty much everything in our lives as leftists want and do. Opposing gay marriage doesn’t need a new gov agency to monitor and control such nor does it need additional taxes nor new regulations. Opposing gay marriage just means defining marriage as an institution for men and women for the implied purpose of raising a family.

        That you conflate conservatives opposition to gay marriage with leftist statist desires and policies demonstrates a lack of critical thinking.

  • wildcolonialboy

    I’m with Nick. I genuinely have no idea which party I should support anymore.

    I still do consider myself a democratic socialist in the loose sense. But I consider myself a democratic socialist in the mould that Attlee considered himself one; Attlee created the UK nuclear deterrent, took us into NATO and was a strong supporter of the American alliance. Attlee sent troops onto the docks to smash communist-provocateured strikes, and introduced prescription charges to pay for our deployment to the far east to roll back Red Korean aggression.

    Attlee also effected a firm policy of austerity, wage restraint, price controls and rationing to deal with the fiscal and current account deficits, and pay for the new Jerusalem. Unlike the revolting modern left, Attlee understand you will never be able to squeeze enough out of the rich to pay for a New Jerusalem. Attlee also understood that the ordinary British working class person has a decent patriotism about them that the far left will never understand.

    I’m still a socialist in that I believe in social control of the means of production; the question is how you define the means of production. In the modern age I’d say railways, maybe certain parts of the energy sector (they are owned by foreign governments anwyay; EDF is the French government), central banking, the health service and maybe water utilities. I also support many aspects of trade unionism (but not all); they are a genuine force for good in campaigning for workers’ rights.

    At the same time, economic activity is generally best left to the private sector. And the dead hand of the state is simply not nimble or agile enough, not as vital or revolutionary, as the private sector can be. Is it really so bizarre to say perhaps we can find some third way between free market fanaticism and far left socialism?

    I would vote for the Lib Dems except they are utterly spineless when it comes to defence. Ultimately I will be a single issue voter if it comes down to protecting the defence of the realm and opposition to Islamic fascism, does this mean only the Conservatives are left to me as a party? Strange days

  • colchar

    The Left only believes in free speech when it agrees with what is being said. If they don’t, they are the most fanatical censors on the planet.

    • alan b

      Glad we have the mail, telegraph, sun, express, times, …, then. Obviously extreme left wing papers.

    • Rupert Rivett

      So Colchar you are saying that this article is full of truth or do you think that maybe just maybe the readership of the Spectator are having the wool pulled over they eyes with this sort of propaganda journalism. Nothing wrong with free speech but when there our lies projected from any political avenue we all have to be careful and aware.

  • alan b

    Always amazed at the way these people, who studied a twaddly degree at Oxford, are incapable of constructing an argument. “Boo Hoo, my side lost.” about sums it up.

    • Rupert Rivett

      Some people don’t want to start an argument. Some just want a more moral society. When you have time lets discuss what should be done about the fact that we have food banks in our country ! Don’t you think that is wrong ?

  • Peter George Stewart

    Good. Just a bit further and you’ll realize that the Left was always an aberration, and that classical liberalism – liberty as the guiding principle in both the economic and social spheres – is, always was, and always will be, the way forward! 🙂

  • Wild Bill

    My road in Cambridge is a forest of Labour signs during elections. Mainly academics, media, professions – I think I am the only one on the road not privately educated. Average house price £1.6M. Went for a dinner over the road recently and was lectured at some length about rape.

    If you want to see Tory signs you have to go to the working class areas.

    • Jack Rocks

      Cambridge ping-pongs between Labour and the Liberal Democrats. But it’s surrounded by Tory MPs (my MP being one of them). It’s the student vote that does it you see.

  • Adrian

    because you’re an imbecile who thinks that politics’ end game is just to win an election and bend the policies according to what most people would vote for. Well if most people eligible to vote didn’t bother voting, doesn’t that signal that what has been on offer across the political spectrum has been inconsistent with what a lot of people want, and that what Corbyn brings to the table, is for the first time in decades a real clear choice between parties. Shouldn’t that be the whole point of politics?

    And your slanderous attacks calling him a anti-Semite and Bin Laden accolade would resonate more if you backed up your statements with facts and sources. I’ve seen essays by college students in politics with more factual authenticity than what you have written.

    • Jack Rocks

      A real clear choice: You can either have this lovely, quite nice tasting chocolate cake, or this mouldy, rancid, rotting mess that used to be a quite nice tasting chocolate cake but it’s been in the cake tin since 1975.

      You see what Corbyn will do is persuade all of those non-voters who couldn’t be bothered to vote in 2015, to come out and vote. For the Tories.

    • Penny

      “Well if most people eligible to vote didn’t bother voting, doesn’t that
      signal that what has been on offer across the political spectrum has
      been inconsistent with what a lot of people want”

      No, not necessarily, Adrian. As a one-time political activist who has probably been on more doorsteps than the average person has meals in a year, there are many reasons why people don’t bother voting. Some really and truly do not care. Some wouldn’t be interested no matter what was on offer. Some think other things are more important because not everyone is politically-minded. But obviously, in the category you mention: i.e. those who have no political home, it is not necessarily the case that Corbyn is what they’ve been looking for. Some, for example, want the Tories to be more “Tory”.

      I’m interested by your view that the political end game isn’t about just winning elections.Perhaps I’ve misunderstood your point, but what is the end game for the Labour party now? Corbyn is surely going to aim for a win in 2020 and to do so, he may well have to compromise some of the views he holds now and “bend” to policies favoured by the electorate.

      • Adrian

        I agree that there are many reasons for disenfranchising of the electorate, but I believe Corbyn’s victory through his policies and his over all demeanour definitely have politicised many a people who weren’t before. I am an example of it. Labour acquired a surge of new members and the country has been talking about politics to a level rarely seen outside of an general election. Though there are many reasons as you say, this is a beginning.

        For my comment on the “political end game”, I truly believe that politics should be a representation of democratic value and policies that favour the greater good of the population. It has been clear for quite sometime that those in power have caused much disdain amongst predominantly the working class and the middle class. Hence the surge in popularity for UKIP and the SNP in Scotland, because Labour was just seen as a faction of a right leaning centrist political spectrum. Labour under MiliBLAND were just that, uninspiring, without a clear and distinctive manifesto that resonated with a lot of people. And the wide media attention of Corbyn’s victory and the smear campaigns that followed prove to me just how effective and threatening he really can be to the “establishment”.

        I don’t think he will bend the rules just to please an “electorate”, he has been a MP for 33 years who has not once bended at the face of oppression for what he stands for. He’ll make concessions on some areas, every politician has to, but he will also abide to the views and policies that got him elected in the first place.

        If anything else, Corbyn will be remember for someone that shook up politics and got people talking and debating just as we are right now.

        • Penny

          Thanks for your reply, Adrian.

          Corbyn appears to be “new” to many, but he certainly isn’t to me. I’ve been aware of him for a good number of years now, mostly because I find some of his values directly opposite to mine – chiefly those Nick Cohen has outlined.I don’t find it principled at all for a British MP to share platforms with those whose values are so at odds with universal human rights. And he has shared these platforms by choice – as opposed to having to engage with individuals for reasons of diplomacy or realpolitik.

          I am not posing this question in bad faith, Adrian: I’m not one to hurl ad. homs or be provocative because I prefer respectful exchanges – but how do Corbyn supporters airbrush these issues out of the overall picture of who he actually is?

    • Trofim

      Hey man, are you sure you’re a real lefty? You haven’t used the words scum or vermin once. Are you sure your facial muscles are up to the prolonged snarling required of a proper lefty? Can your parotid glands produce enough spit?

  • John

    Blair, Brown (Cameron) would never be friends with anti-semites. Well, not the ones whose anti-semitism has grown from the desperation of squalor enforced the Israeli state. They are only friends with super rich anti-semites like the the King of Saudi Arabia.

  • disqus_O7Ws2bMRWE

    Pretty sure you parted ways with the left years ago but hey…The left I know always supported the kurds, now in particular in the struggle against IS. So when was the last time you argued against the ban on the PKK?

  • Katabasis

    The left continues to eat itself.

    Same as it ever was.

    And you dine out quite handsomely on the issue, don’t you Nick?

  • weejonnie

    I am both a socialist and a capitalist. When I have something I am a capitalist. When I want something I am a socialist.

    • http://whenfallsthecoliseum.com/author/kwatson/ megapotamus

      Lurvely.

  • stewart

    ” The causes I most care about — secularism, freedom of speech, universal human rights — are not their causes. ”
    Then you should join UKIP, like me and thousands of other ex-labour voters

    • http://whenfallsthecoliseum.com/author/kwatson/ megapotamus

      Hear hear. Forward.

    • Superfluous

      How does gays causing bad weather fit into those three causes?

      • stewart

        freedom of speech
        That’s the freedom to say what one believes not just what you believe

  • Guilttripjunkie

    The left disappeared up their own backsides years ago. They have become mere fringe group activists, peddling loony minority views. They have allowed themselves to be corralled into agendas set by corporate capitalists e.g unwavering support for mass immigration.

  • chesters

    Great article Nick, one of your best.

  • Rod Mason

    Most peoples political view is far more eclectic than the two party political system can cater for these days.

    • http://whenfallsthecoliseum.com/author/kwatson/ megapotamus

      Yes, Cohen is not-Left. Does that mean Right? Doesn’t sound like it.

  • Joseph Clark

    The political Left is nothing but a bunch looney a-holes, regardless of what country we’re talking about.

  • http://whenfallsthecoliseum.com/author/kwatson/ megapotamus

    But he’s still a commie. Go figure. Forward.

  • The_greyhound

    Congratulations, Mr Cohen. You now know what it felt like to be von Papen.

    You and the rest of “mainstream” Labour were happy enough while you thought you could control and use these rabid fanatics. Now the mad rats have broken free, and you, and Dan Hodges, and Chuka and the rest are bewailing your misfortune. It’s very difficult for the rest of us, who always recognized the goose-stepping propensities of the sort of pond-life that elected corbyn, to see this as other than poetic justice.

    It’s no good giving up – you and your like are responsible for corbyn and the rest of the sewerage spill – you had better get on and clean it up.

    • Penny

      Sometimes it takes a watershed moment for people to leave what they’ve believed to be their political home. I know a fair few Labour voters and they are genuinely decent folk who have watched what they’ve thought to be others “taking over their ground”. This has been more obvious in those who saw the Labour party as the type that would be outspoken about rights of women, gays, etc in some of the Arab countries, but instead have found some of them to be silent – or worse, excusing their oppressors. It’s obvious to me that the people I’m speaking about have thought it would all turn around eventually. Now, perhaps, they are in the same position as Nick.

  • edlancey

    It’s amazing how many people who “see the light” think they are all the smarter than people who were never left-wing in the first place.

    • amac

      Exactly, after your teenage years there really is no excuse for being politically left wing. Cold logic and experience just knock socialism in all its variants flat at every turn.

  • WarriorPrincess111111

    I disagree totally with all this ‘left’,’right’, centre thing. it is a stupid characterisation, soon we will have people referring to 45 degrees left of centre, or 30 degrees right of centre. Why not just refer to people as having common sense views or not!

    • Mongo Part II

      I see the poitical spectrum more as a vertical line with Corbynites at the very bottom

      • Rupert Rivett

        Yes that is a good point Corbynites at the bottom being the foundations of a morally correct.

    • Rupert Rivett

      I agree with you but when you want to label a direction of politics Left and right is a good way of putting most of the time. Sadly though people feel they have to pick sides instead of actually think about the issues. There are many typologies of people and within those types some will take the right direction some will take the left. Neither direction is the correct direction all the time. Sadly our media at present is taking the right road instead of looking at the map.

  • Oswaldo Mesias Villacres

    Nahhh, you are not prescient. You simple are half blind. The left has always been about power over other people by ANY means. It has not changed. Looks like you have never heard of Stalin and his association with and admiration of Hitler (and viceversa)

  • Aroha

    Well, good riddance I’d say. The NZ Labour Party is full of people like you and it’s suffering dismally ( as was YOUR Labour party under the Blairites ) – 30,000 new members for UK Labour in a week. That says a LOT more than your whiny opinion piece ever could.
    ” Oh for a Corbyn here in NZ ” is the cry i’m hearing down here .You got so cosy in your Conservative-Lite life , fighting for middle ground that you failed to stop and wonder why Labour Party supporters had lost faith in you.

    • Mongo Part II

      is NZ becoming a socialist sh!thole too?

      • E.I.Cronin

        Nah, don’t worry. The Nationals are in again thank goodness. Luckily Labour only got around 20% of the vote last election and with a bit of luck the numbers will keep going down, down, down. NZ First is an interesting party with a mix of policies.
        I love the cat!

      • Aroha

        Oh no, never fear , we have a tory govt and a tory ‘opposition”.
        We also now have families living in cars, mentally ill people being looked after by our Prison system , a rise in diseases such as TB and Rheumatic fever , a HUGE increase in Child Poverty and Serco is lined up to take over our Social Services ..The city of Christchurch which was devasted by earthquakes 4 years ago is still home to families living in broken and cold houses and elderly people have died while waiting for their homes to be repaired … so you Tories can relax…you’re OK Jack .

        • Mongo Part II

          A Tory govt and a Tory opposition – sounds like a win-win to me!

          good luck in your futile search for your Kiwi Corbyn

    • Mars_Ultor

      ^ case in point. Mindless groupthink that places loyalty and party ahead of any ‘liberal’ principles. Can you defend your Dear Leader’s friendship with Iranian govt, Hamas and Hezbollah?

  • http://danbreen.myopenid.com/ Dan Breen

    The left is once again, insignificantly leftist.

    Maybe a good purge is in order.

  • Mars_Ultor

    Fantastic piece..

    I suspect the reasons mentioned for leaving the Left are the same as those given by Hitchens when he broke with that ideology.

    • Rupert Rivett

      Well lets not presume that Mr Hitchens is right in all his actions

  • Mars_Ultor

    It is a great mistake to suppose that the only writers who matter are those whom the educated in their saner moments can take seriously. There exists a subterranean world where pathological fantasies disguised as ideas are churned out by crooks and half-educated fanatics for the benefit of the ignorant and superstitious. There are times when this underworld emerges from the depths and suddenly fascinates, captures and dominates multitudes of usually sane and responsible people.

    ^^^ This…

  • Rupert Rivett

    Surely there has to be some sensible people on the right that even though they might love the Spectator ……. must see that this article is just a bunch of sour grapes mixed in with some serious mistruths. Or is our media all going the way of Fox News ?

    • Simon Jenkins

      There are no sensible people on the right, at least not here in the comments section.

      • Mongo Part II

        what about Nigel!!?

    • NorthernFirst

      Serious mistruths?

      Take Mehdi, “The kuffar, the disbelievers, the atheists who remain deaf and stubborn to the teachings of Islam, the rational message of the Koran; they are described in the Koran as “a people of no intelligence”, Allah describes them as not of no morality, not as people of no belief – people of “no intelligence” – because they’re incapable of the intellectual effort it requires to shake off those blind prejudices, to shake off those easy assumptions about this world, about the existence of God. In this respect, the Koran describes the atheists as “cattle”, as cattle of those who grow the crops and do not stop and wonder about this world.” Hassan; political editor of the Huffington Post as a case in point.

      What self-respecting left-winger would share a platform with that (apart from everyone in Labour and the BBC and writing for the Graun, Indie and HuffPo)?

      • Rupert Rivett

        What exactly is your point NorthernFirst ?????

        • NorthernFirst

          My point is that Nick Cohen is on the money here.

  • Spivy

    Your idea that you have fought the Tories is ludicrous. On the contrary, the LP under the so-called centre ground pink LP operators, slipped into Tory territory to gain power and remain doyens of the establishment which, Mr Cohen, you are one very paradigmatic example.

  • http://frostmagazine.com Frost Magazine

    Amazing article Nick.

  • http://www.ajbrenchley.com Callipygian

    I only had time for the first 1 min 40 secs as I’m on the hoof, but well said, Mr Cohen. And good on you for saying it.

  • Jim91

    I realise now what I should have known years ago. The causes I most care about — secularism, freedom of speech, universal human rights — are not their causes.

    Nick, I think this is unfortunately the crux of the problem. Outside the circles you mix in, to be left wing in the modern sense doesn’t require caring about any of these higher values. Left wing activism has become a parochial and self indulgent movement which is really only concerned with relentlessly seeking to revive failed 1970s far left economics. A left winger needn’t look any further for their archenemy than the evil Tories and treacherous Blairites. If they are forced to speak about international issues like Islamic extremism, Russia, Nuclear proliferation etc, re-regurgitating Chomsky diatribes about American imperialism can be recycled for any conversation.

  • Chris Judge

    A refreshing change from Nick – it’s normally self-serving justifications along the lines “Why I was right all along about Iraq” – one of the few foreign policy enterprises that large chunks of the “left” and “right” generally agree was a disaster.

  • Xchris

    If you give up on your beliefs then you never had any in the first place. What a cosy little place you have here where you can all get together and share your narrow minded petty views.

    • Mrs Crewe

      That is such a load of rubbish. Politics is not a religion, it is not about dogmatic belief. It is about debate and discussion something the hard left just can’t understand. It’s so ironic that you call us narrow minded, by your rules you have had one political opinion to the exclusion of all others all your life. That’s not narrow minded that is not having a mind at all.
      I’m surprised you even come here and risk having your single world view being tarnished by another idea.

      • Xchris

        You know nothing about my beliefs or my political views. My comment is referring to the vitriol that is being spouted on here and your comment merely reinforces the fact that I am right.

        • Mrs Crewe

          I didn’t need any help making my point but thanks for the example you have provided.

          • Xchris

            I am making the assumption that your lack of understanding in your responses is down to predictive text and not that you are just plain stupid.

    • Tamerlane

      And here you are!

      • Xchris

        I’m not sure what you are saying here. Please explain if you could.

    • Mongo Part II

      people who stick to their views rigidly (like you) rather than evolving and maturing their views over time, are the true narrow-minded ones

  • balance_and_reason

    So people take longer to grow up than others….a decade of dumbing down under Bliar/Broon….we have the fodder that the left needs…under educated, manipulable, good for nothing with a predilection for violence and sentimentalism….ALF/PETA/through the refugee scam…doesn’t matter what the subject is …It’ll be focussed on by the Beeb/entertainment crew…the 2020 election is the next target….jobs/money/places for the team are at stake…the Bliar broon gravy is running out.

  • Gus

    I find this article a bit extreme actually. I like Jeremy Corbyn and joined labour because I agreed with some of his views but not all of them. I do think when the wealthiest 1 percent owns as much as the poorest 55 percent something needs to be done and he seems to be the only one willing to adress that and I am also not a fan of trident. Some of his views are naive though I think. However “secularism, freedom of speech, universal human rights ” are values I share – I am happy to debate about anything calmly – and I certainly wouldn’t shun you you if you saw things differently – Im sure there’s idiots around but there are on all sides.

    • Mongo Part II

      was the £3 worth it?

    • martynW

      The amount of income required to be in the top 1 percent of world incomes is $32,400 a year, or about 28,500 Euros. When this someday gets “addressed” by people who claim the right to confiscate and redistribute other people’s wealth, keep that in mind.

      • Kjell Sivertsen

        That may be true on a global scale, but I doubt that is the case in the first world exclusively.

  • http://my.telegraph.co.uk/voteregime/ The Prez

    The far-left has always been rancid, it’s just that the far left is all there is now. And it will keep shrinking as the narcissism of small differences creates ever more vicious fratricide over ever-tinier disagreements.

  • Tim Morrison

    Nick Cohen, this mean you are now right wing? That suddenly your politics change like a coat? That your side loses in a poll is no reason for leaving – one reorganises and so on – traditional stuff – but one thing about the Labour right is their own lack of belief in democracy – they lost an election that they rigged the turles to win

    • Mongo Part II

      I don’t think he said he is now right wing. nor was this a sudden change. Read the article

      • http://www.ajbrenchley.com Callipygian

        ‘Read the article’ is clearly asking too much. But the Left never WAS the bastion of the brightest, only of the most truculent, savage, and ungrateful.

    • http://www.ajbrenchley.com Callipygian

      Your comment isn’t even coherent, never mind pointing at reality.

      A man of the Left, ladies and gentleman. Look now before the curtain goes down.

  • The Banana

    Corbyn has already had to compromise on just about everything he believes in the first week just to keep things going. Singing national anthems, kissing the Queen’s pinky ring, not leaving the EU.

    Whenever I see him speak he seems conciliatory to the point of abstaining from leadership altogether. I’m not sure he makes a particularly convincing Stalinist bogeyman tbh.

  • Andrew Baxter

    “The US leftist-turned-neocon Irving Kristol set the pattern for the pattern-baldness theory of politics when he opined that a conservative is a liberal who has been ‘mugged by reality’.”

    What people do not recognise, Neo-conservatives especially, is that a highly interventionist foreign policy, spreading democracy like the saviours of the world, is not rightwing, it is the leftwing, being very revolutionary. These leftists did not become rightwing, they just became a different kind of leftwing.

  • GoianiaHeights

    david mamet’s journey from the left https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DLQY19QumUc

  • BillClintonsShorts17

    Welcome to Realityville, Nick. Welcome.

  • Icon2100

    Why is this man applauded for not reading George Orwell, knowing nothing of the history of the Soviet Union, Maoist China, the Eastern Bloc etc. etc. ?
    Does he believe thought began in 1985? Does he know nothing of the Militant Tendency or the fact that members of the NUM visited Leipzig before the wall came down to study “How it is done?”
    Only an idiot or a Stalinist would give jobs to a woman because they were woman or a man because they were a man, other things being equal. Would you give the job of a horse to a lion if the job description suited the horse better than a lion, for example “herbivorous diet a good idea because there’s no meat”?
    He is the usual interfering middle-class idiot “helping” those who are “suffering” under the Tories and are apparently too stupid to help themselves. Well, they can do a bloody sight better job than you mate.

    • Grace Ironwood

      Um, while not denying there are significant sex differences, I’m not sure that men & women are quite as different as the lion and horse. We have been lucky enough in the past to have had a couple of lioness leaders.

      It’s the snakes who have wasted our time.

  • Aaron Adamson

    The left.

    Only had one mantra.

    if you have more than me, you must be evil.

    Now gimme some.

  • Dave Roberts

    The problem is that the ideas of the Stoppers/SWP and the rest are now mainstream in the Labour Party whereas once they were fringe. The other problem is that most of the party now live in a cocoon sealed off from the mainstream opinion of most of the electorate. When I read opinions on left blogs that if only the manifesto had been more left wing they would have won back UKIP voters and won over some Tory ones I don’t know whether to laugh or cry. They are deluded.

    • Leon Wolfeson

      No, you’re not welcome today n Labour, as you well know. As you try desperately to shut out multi-party politics, as you pretend to be millions of many people again.

      As you say that the facts are deluded, as polling on the policies shows. Oh, and very few people are concerned with winning over the far right, but rather the left and centralists who Labour has previously actively repelled. Which explains your loyalty to the Progress cause.

  • Attila

    Um, I was a liberal until 1994.
    What took you so long?

  • Joan Shostak

    Whenever I visit the UK or Europe, British leftists are the people who scare me the most and seem a half-step removed from launching the next Western evil totalitarian movement…

  • http://www.kipling.org.uk/poems_macdonough.htm bobw

    You’ve been bitten by the fact that the political universe has a minimum of two dimensions. The one dimensional left-right paradigm lumps you in with some truly nasty people while estrangeing you from some good people on the “right”.

  • Cha5678

    Makes you wonder if these Corbynistas threatening party members into compliance, protecting radical Islamic totalitarians, and tolerated the growth of unaccountable centralized power here and abroad are Manchurian candidates funding by Maoists

  • Mahon1

    “(The) facts of life are not always, as Margaret Thatcher claimed, conservative. If they were, we would still have feudalism.”

    No. Conservatism in the modern English-speaking world refers to the liberal order – personal liberty, pluralist democracy, open society and culture, market capitalism, the rule of law, and peace through strength. There is nothing feudal about it.

  • Pervy Grin

    “Unlike their Scottish and French counterparts, the English intelligentsia has always had a problem with patriotism. Whenever this trend has manifested itself, voters have turned away, reasoning that politicians who appear to hate England are likely to have little time for the English.”
    “typical English supporter of the French Revolution ‘as a friend of every country but his own’”

    We have the same situation in the USA under the Democrats and Obama, but they aren’t a friend of every country, just our enemies.

  • Grace Ironwood

    Nick! You’re a neocon! Finally mugged by the reality that it’s not the left who wish to conserve the civilized values of free societies.

    These are hard-won liberties, not facts of life.

    • CK

      It took me until I was 21 to see how bloody stupid leftism was…guess it’s never too late for anyone.

  • Prospector

    I gave up on the Left after 9/11/01. Their behavior was and continues to be atrocious.

    • TatR

      Yeah, the left didn’t want to start a series of disastrous wars. What a bunch of fools. Glad you went to the other side and could revel in the carnage.

      • Prospector

        Uh, sorry your memory is so short. Let me help:

        “There is no doubt that … Saddam Hussein has reinvigorated his weapons programs. Reports indicate that biological, chemical and nuclear programs continue apace and may be back to pre-Gulf War status. In addition, Saddam continues to redefine delivery systems and is doubtless using the cover of a licit missile program to develop longer-range missiles that will threaten the United States and our allies.”
        Letter to President Bush, Signed by:
        — Sen. Bob Graham (D, FL), and others, Dec 5, 2001

        “We begin with the common belief that Saddam Hussein is a tyrant and a threat to the peace and stability of the region. He has ignored the mandate of the United Nations and is building weapons of mass destruction and th! e means of delivering them.”
        — Sen. Carl Levin (D, MI), Sept. 19, 2002

        “We know that he has stored secret supplies of biological and chemical weapons throughout his country.”
        — Al Gore, Sept. 23, 2002

        “Iraq’s search for weapons of mass destruction has proven impossible to deter and we should assume that it will continue for as long as Saddam is in power.”
        — Al Gore, Sept. 23, 2002

        “We have known for many years that Saddam Hussein is seeking and developing weapons of mass destruction.”
        — Sen. Ted Kennedy (D, MA), Sept. 27, 2002

        “The last UN weapons inspectors left Iraq in October of 1998. We are confident that Saddam Hussein retains some stockpiles of chemical and biological weapons, and that he has since embarked on a crash course to build up his chemical and biological warfare capabilities. Intelligence reports indicate that he is seeking nuclear weapons…”
        — Sen. Robert Byrd (D, WV), Oct. 3, 2002

        “I will be voting to give the President of the United States the authority to use force — if necessary — to disarm Saddam Hussein because I believe that a deadly arsenal of weapons of mass destruction in his hands is a real and grave threat to our security.”
        — Sen. John F. Kerry (D, MA), Oct. 9, 2002

        “There is unmistakable evidence that Saddam Hussein is working aggressively to develop nuclear weapons and will likely have nuclear weapons within the next five years … We also should remember we have always underestimated the progress Saddam has made in development of weapons of mass destruction.”
        — Sen. Jay Rockefeller (D, WV), Oct 10, 2002

        “He has systematically violated, over the course of the past 11 years, every significant UN resolution that has demanded that he disarm and destroy his chemical and biological weapons, and any nuclear capacity. This he has refused to do”
        — Rep. Henry Waxman (D, CA), Oct. 10, 2002

        “In the four years since the inspectors left, intelligence reports show that Saddam Hussein has worked to rebuild his chemical and biological weapons stock, his missile delivery capability, and his nuclear program. He has also given aid, comfort, and sanctuary to terrorists, including al Qaeda members … It is clear, however, that if left unchecked, Saddam Hussein will continue to increase his capacity to wage biological and chemical warfare, and will keep trying to develop nuclear weapons.”
        — Sen. Hillary Clinton (D, NY), Oct 10, 2002

        “We are in possession of what I think to be compelling evidence that Saddam Hussein has, and has had for a number of years, a developing capacity for the production and storage of weapons of mass destruction.”
        — Sen. Bob Graham (D, FL), Dec. 8, 2002

        “Without question, we need to disarm Saddam Hussein. He is a brutal, murderous dictator, leading an oppressive regime … He presents a particularly grievous threat because he is so consistently prone to miscalculation … And now he is miscalculating America’s response to his continued deceit and his consistent grasp for weapons of mass destruction … So the threat of Saddam Hussein with weapons of mass destruction is real…”
        — Sen. John F. Kerry (D, MA), Jan. 23. 2003

        • TatR

          Sorry, I’m from the UK. I don’t go in for the boring Democrat vs Republican point scoring, and don’t particularly consider the left of the two party system to be particularly Left, nor is it the Left that Cohen attacks in this piece.

          • Prospector

            Shaddup, fool.

          • http://www.ajbrenchley.com Callipygian

            Nothing boring about freedom, mate. We in the USA do it best. Get stuffed.

          • TatR

            “Shut up because freedom”.

          • http://www.ajbrenchley.com Callipygian

            Did I tell you to shut up? No, I did not.

            Idiot.

    • Kjell Sivertsen

      I am still trying to comprehend how anyone could believe the left was responsible in any way for September 11th.

      Al-Qaeda would not have likely gotten off the ground if it weren’t for Regan funding them to fight the Soviets in the first place.

      • Prospector

        Al Qaida did not exist during the Reagan administration. Re-read my post. I blame leftists for their behavior after the 9/11 attacks.Their response was to blame America first, just as you have. It is reprehensible.

      • Roger Sutherland

        Who is claiming that the left is “responsible for 9/11”? I think the main grievance many people have is the with the many leftists whose response was that America provoked these attacks. This stance is not exclusive to people on the left, of course. I’ve seen plenty of people on the right taking the same view (e.g. Pat Buchanan), and people from all sides of the spectrum positing weird stuff about it being a “false flag”

        It’s interesting that you bring up the Cold War policy over the United States, though. If one is trying to come up with root causes instead of blaming the people who actually committed the act, perhaps the main grievance should be directed at the Soviet Union for instigating the conflict in Afghanistan in the first place, not America for intervening against the Soviets’ landgrab.

  • raycathode

    To the left, life is a zero sum game – which means in the end, a war of all on all.

    For capitalists the solution to need is to produce so that the supply will increase; for the leftists, to kill, so that the demand is reduced. Anyone with a brain can see the end of that equation.

  • Captain Mann

    Why do we give a rat’s azz about Great Britain’s politics. Eff ’em.

  • hdb

    Nick Cohen is being his usual monomanic self. He hasn’t a word to say here about Corbyn’s left wing policies, all he bangs on about is what he thinks about foreign policy (mostly the Middle East). If he is genuinely against Corbyn can he actual analyse something other than his position vis a visa Israel?

  • andy_gill

    Of course Corbyn isn’t anti-semitic. He has other people to do that for him.

  • Gareth Davies

    Nick’s main complaint is that others aren’t as clever as he is. That must be quite a difficult burden for him to live with.

    A fair proportion of us others have to make the best of what we have (money and brains) whilst living with the democratically elected decisions of the majority.

    Maybe Nick should try that for a day or so. It’s called politics.

  • Mhjames

    George Orwell analysed all this 70 years ago in Notes on Nationalism (he was using ‘nationalism’ in a very broad sense to mean ‘ideology’):

    ‘All nationalists have the power of not seeing resemblances between
    similar sets of facts. A British Tory will defend self-determination in
    Europe and oppose it in India with no feeling of inconsistency. Actions
    are held to be good or bad, not on their own merits, but according to
    who does them, and there is almost no kind of outrage — torture, the use
    of hostages, forced labour, mass deportations, imprisonment without
    trial, forgery, assassination, the bombing of civilians — which does not
    change its moral colour when it is committed by ‘our’ side. The Liberal News Chronicle
    published, as an example of shocking barbarity, photographs of Russians
    hanged by the Germans, and then a year or two later published with warm
    approval almost exactly similar photographs of Germans hanged by the
    Russians . . ‘

    • Kjell Sivertsen

      I have never been a fan of Orwell, but have even less interest now, to have learn that he equated nationalism with ideology. Such a nonsensical comparrison is difficult to even comprehend.

      • Mhjames

        It is confusing, but Orwell was talking here about ‘transferred’ nationalism, that is, automatically defending every country that was an enemy of one’s own country. With that adjustment, we can appreciate what Orwell was saying (and Cohen is saying now).

        • Kjell Sivertsen

          I still do not understand how nationalism, in any sense, can be equalized with ideology. Ideology is simply a set of beliefs. Ideologies can be nationalistic, and many are to varying extants, but there are also ‘internationalist’ ideologies, which support the unification and equality of all nationalities.

          Orwell is implying that ‘nationalism’ is the same as ideology, not that it can be included by ideology.

          • NorthernFirst

            Whoosh goes the point.

          • Kjell Sivertsen

            Oh no, I get that Orwell’s point was about the existance of national double-stabdards, which he is correct about. I’m just saying that his odd use of two words with completely exclusive/unrelated meanings (nationalism and ideology) is confusing.

  • The Blue Baron

    It must be so traumatic for so many people on the centre-left who have spent their entire lives demonising ‘Tories’ to now be called Tories themselves. I feel their pain.

  • Teacher

    I have noticed an increase in strident and abusive language and behaviour in public from those on the left. It has become very uncomfortable indeed to be a non-leftist in almost any company these days. In my previous workplace (admittedly a state school), in my book group, on Facebook, in most social situations now a vicious. contemptuous tone for those on the right, openly depicted as ‘fascists’, ‘racists, ‘Kippers’ and (in tones of utter loathing) ‘Tories’ is heard. It seems to be an opening ritual before general conversation begins, that abuse of the non-socialist is shared around the group.

    I am not generalising as I have examples of what I mean. Recently, in a meeting of eight lady-members of my book group, angry stares and muttered comments directed at me made me feel utterly excluded and uncomfortable. I had said and done nothing to offend but had been assumed not to be in complete agreement with the leftist consensus. I also read on Facebook on the eve of the recent election that an old friend had shouted at an older UKIP supporter in the queue to vote that she was a ‘fascist’. A near relation who teaches is at this moment posting abusive messages on social media aimed at those who do not advocate lowering barriers to admission of everyone in the world who wishes to immigrate to the UK.

    Where are their manners? What happened to tolerance? Why do they think this is acceptable in a free country with free speech but a duty of respect towards others?

    Where on earth will this end?

  • https://twitter.com/MrMaitra S M

    Happened to me right after 9/11.

  • Fido

    I find being attached to any ideology that causes a polarisation and separation from ‘the other’ is a deeply painful way to live and a recipe for eventual (if not immediate) disaster. So giving up on a polarised position and viewpoint (like being ‘Left’ or ‘Right’) is very likely a healthy thing, for everyone. Sometimes it can be the beginning of a way to be together with others where we can find a way to creatively co-exist in a way that by definition is not self-destructive (as we are currently doing [see climate change, soil erosion, plastic pollution in oceans, enormous loss of sea life, accelerating species extinction, huge inequality of material wealth etc.]). So Congratulations!!! I’m happy for you.

  • Jaria1

    What has shocked me is the amount of people that support Corbyn as if he is some sort of saviour. Have a look at Huff Post and there they all are. Clearly not the most intellgent but their vote is as powerful as someone well versed in the subject.
    Just how many gullible people has Corbyn managed to hoodwink?
    Can you imagine the nightmare if by some coincidence oor unexpected turn of events he did gain power!
    I really dont think Britain could ever be rescued from the damage he and his vindictive team would have caused.
    However I musnt be churlish he must have been very brave to have coupled with Diane Abbott , not many men would have done that. I wonder what Andy Burnham must have done to get into the cabinet.

  • jaz

    Unlike Mr Cohen I have not abandoned the left, but I do not support the election of Corbyn as the leader of my party. Cohen hit it on the head: “I am middle-class and won’t suffer under the coming decade of majority Tory rule. Millions need a centre-left alternative.” When you see the appalling policies that this Tory government are driving through never have we needed a stronger opposition, and never have we had a weaker one. It was a lamentable leadership contest won by the worst candidate.

    All I can hope is that somewhere there is a true leader waiting in the wings who will come in and clear up the mess that Corbyn is going to make. In the meantime I would apologise to the millions of low-paid workers, the unemployed, the elderly, the sick, the deprived. Never have you needed the Labour Party more; never has it been more ill suited to support you. I am sorry.

  • stefanobarbarossa

    And yet…..”Jewish lawmaker in Britain said she joined new Labour Party leader Jeremy Corbyn’s shadow cabinet after having a “full and frank discussion” with him.

    Luciana Berger agreed to serve as the shadow mental health secretary for Corbyn, who is regarded as hostile to Israel and has called the terrorist groups Hamas and Hezbollah “friends.” Corbyn, 66, was elected on September 12 in the first round of balloting with 59.5 percent of the vote.” Times of Israel.

    So what does anyone know about Ms. Berger?

    Useful idiot, gullible fool, ambitious go-getter?

  • Allyup

    There is space (a tiny space) for a far left Labour party lead by Corbyn with spend spend spend McDonnell in charge of finance (don’t laugh).
    Assuming they are still there for the 2020 election then the new improved lefter-than-left Labour will be massacred by the public. The far left are telling themselves they have as good as won but the far left have never had any grasp on reality. That goes with being far left.

  • southseas

    Corbyn appearing on Russia Today and Iran TV doesn’t mean he endorses Putin and the Ayatollahs.

    The Union Jack recently flew at half mast when a Saudi ruler died, Does that mean the Government supports wahhabism.

    The author complains about the vitriolic comments of the Left then makes vitriolic comments about Owen Jones.

    • Steve

      Nope. Not a single ounce of ‘vitriol’ towards the aforementioned individual. Observations based on fact, yes; but no vitriol.

      • Kjell Sivertsen

        Actually, I have to agree that this article appears to be written like an angry rant more than a logical criticism.

        • NorthernFirst

          What did you say earlier?

          “If you can’t handle the fact that the left goes even further, then you weren’t a leftist in the first place. The left needs less people like you.”

          Logical criticism ? After that no true scotsman? My arse.

    • NorthernFirst

      “The Union Jack recently flew at half mast when a Saudi ruler died, Does that mean the Government supports wahhabism.”

      Cameron wanted to bomb Assad and leave a power vacuum for the Islamic State to occupy in Syria.
      One can only assume he does, indeed, support Saudi Wahhabism.

  • Kjell Sivertsen

    Good. If you can’t handle the fact that the left goes even further, then you weren’t a leftist in the first place. The left needs less people like you.

    • Grace Ironwood

      Did you mean to prove his point in three sentences? Well done!. 🙂

      • Kjell Sivertsen

        If his point is that the left is becoming extremely selective, then yes, I did just prove his point.

        • Grace Ironwood

          Took you an age to come up with that.
          All the time you had, I had hoped for something better. 🙂

  • TatR

    “But the fact remains that the Labour party has just endorsed an apologist for Putin’s imperial aggression; a man who did not just appear on the propaganda channel of Russia, which invades its neighbours and persecutes gays, but also of Iran, whose hangmen actually execute gays. Labour’s new leader sees a moral equivalence between 9/11 and the assassination of bin Laden, and associates with every variety of women-hating, queer-bashing, Jew-baiting jihadi, holocaust denier and 9/11 truther. ”

    This is so incredibly dishonest and misleading. Could any more have been extrapolated from minor events? Not one of his polices are queer-bashing, or women-hating, or Jew-baiting, he doesn’t deny the Holocaust, and I see no record of him believing 9/11 was an inside job.

    This tantrum of Cohen’s is pathetic. Please stop this pitiful parody of late Christopher Hitchens, himself a pitiful parody of early Christiopher Hitchens.

    • NorthernFirst

      If the man shares a platform and makes common cause with homophobes, misogynists and anti-semites then the man has no principled belief against those bigotries.

      It is that simple.

      • TatR

        No it isn’t. You can side with many people in politics for a specific cause, it’s called being a political grown up, something people accuse Corbyn of not being.

        • NorthernFirst

          It’s the left wing equivalent of a right winger declaring their love for nationalisation and marx.

          Like many left wingers the man is an unprincipled hypocrite.

  • acidulous

    No kidding. The “left” in America is quite the same as the monster you created across the pond. The left has ALWAYS been about fascism and totalitarianism. They just used fake issues and arguments to accrue the power before they unveiled the hydra headed monster that was always lurking beneath. You were just too naïve or gullible to understand the many psych op tools that have been used for generations to accrue the power.

    • Leon Wolfeson

      Keep blaming the left for your policies. As you call poverty and hate “fake”, as you worry that the law will apply to you, and that you’ll have to pay tax.

      As you list off your tactics for keeping your power, with no arguments allowed.

      • acidulous

        Are you taking anything for your panic attacks, Leon?

        • Leon Wolfeson

          I don’t have your issues. So sorry about that.

          Thanks for confirming you can raise no issue with the facts.

  • NickOLarse

    Don’t mention the war Nick. The war on Iraq. You know, the one that you championed. That, of course, led to a massive leap forward for human rights.

    • Sue Smith

      Wars have existed since time immemorial. If it wasn’t Iraq it would be someplace else. Check out your history. Just because people are white doesn’t make them responsible for all the wars in history and all the misery and unrest in the rest of the world. One of my 15 y/o students said, when the Iraq war began, “it’s not fair miss; why are we going to war?” I argued a couple of points with him, which he argued again in tandem. Finally, I became frustrated (taking up too much class time) and said, “we’ve got bigger guns – now let’s get on with our work”!.

      And leftist propaganda and decadence thrives in an atmosphere where there is no existential threat from war.

      • NickOLarse

        What is your point? Wars have always happened, so we shouldn’t bother to campaign against them?

        I didn’t make the obviously ridiculous claim that only white people are responsible for wars, so why introduce that point?

        I’m not sure what point the 15 y/o would have taken away from that discussion.

        On your final point, wasn’t Russia 1917 – during the war – something of a high point for “leftist propaganda”? Check out your history.

        • Sue Smith

          You’d call the Bolshevik Revolution “decadence” would you?

          Campaign against wars, by all means. But don’t criticize the soldiers who actually go there on your behalf, following the orders of their government. And campaigning will only get you so far. The problem is we all have ‘campaign fatigue’.

          As far as Iraq war was concerned; it didn’t go well – certainly. In hindsight we probably would have taken your advice. But people like you, who criticize their own culture, absolutely failed to understand the Americans and their reasons.

          I’m a lot older and wiser than you are, and when I saw those images of September 11 – every single piece of the action from my living room that dreadful night – I realized that in my lifetime I had only seen very few equivalent appalling sights. I also knew this was a deal breaker – that America would exact revenge and that the public mood for that was understandably high octane. On steroids.

          And my views were shared by the late, great Christopher Hitchens in his “Hitch 22”. You’d have to understand the extent of American anger, hatred and hurt pride to even get your head anywhere near their braying for war in 2002.

          • NickOLarse

            Sue, you create many straw men! I mentioned Russia 1917 simply to refute your claim about leftist propaganda and the threat of war. I didn’t make any claim about the nature of the Bolshevik Revolution, or describe it as “decadent”.

            I did not criticise members of the armed forces in any way. I have huge respect for them. I was simply pointing out the hypocrisy of Nick Cohen taking the moral high ground over human rights when he championed the Iraq war, a stance that he continues to attempt to justify.

            I understand “campaign fatigue”, but you speak for yourself. Fortunately there are many tireless peace campaigners who are active to the present time.

            I criticise my own culture? I’m interested to know what you assume “my culture” is, and also what assumptions you make about my age. I remember 9/11 vividly, as I do many of the tragic scenes from Afghanistan and Iraq that followed.

  • Quirt Evans

    It’s funny to me that how after Stalin, Mao, Che and the rest of the murderous leftists of the last 100 years, how so many on the left are stunned when their movement drifts towards totalitarianism. History has shown it’s the natural progression.

    Any movement that is based upon, “everyone coming together” must eventully decide how it will deal with those who disagree. History has shown the answer to most often to be a work, re-education, or concentration camp, followed by murder.

  • Liberal Hater

    The left is for unintelligent sheep who just want to be offended by everything and demand others bow to their every whim. There is no intellectual debate on the left. It’s a bunch of hyperbole. Typically, the stupidest people we know are leftists because it doesn’t require an ounce of rational thought or critical thinking. It just requires you to react and screech whatever comes to your pea-sized brain. You can give a leftist fact after fact and they’ll argue you’re still wrong because it goes against whatever hyperbole they’ve latched on to this week. A fact is a fact. And there’s no such thing as “settled science” either… only to a clueless leftist. Science is never settled. There is always more to learn. Things we thought were true for a long time turn out to be wrong. But not to an uninformed, screeching liberal. “THE SCIENCE IS SETTLED BECAUSE IT ALIGNS WITH MY IMMATURE POLITICAL BELIEFS!!!”

  • southernyank

    The same thing is happening “across the pond.” The Left has become a friend to totalitarianism, relinquishing any moral high ground they may have occupied for a sordid “purist” ideology that worships conformity and eschews anything resembling real diversity of thought.

  • deepred

    “I didn’t leave the democrat party, it left me.” Ronald Reagan

  • HopefulPessimist

    Nick Cohen I am so disapointed in you and tired of this argument. Just because a few loonies lack perspective and a vocabulary is no reason to tar the rest of the 250,000+ people who voted for Jeremy Corbyn with the same brush. Of course there is bound to be a bit of triumphalism from those on the hard left who feel they have been marginalised throughout the Blair years but that doesn’t negate the groundswell of opinion that Labour had lost its way and in particular was failing abysmally to provide any alternative to the disgusting and divisive policies of the Tory party. So Nick please base your response on the majority of labour supporters who voted for Corbyn and haven’t been attacking anyone rather than focus on a minority of loud-mouthed idiots.

  • TheJustCity

    Nick, as a man of conscience, moral and intellectual consistency, you had no alternative. The ‘decent’ Left, once the predominant strand, now truly exist on the periphery – and its saddening and not a little disturbing that it has been going this way for some time.

    Now that it is only the Right that steadfastly remains the champion of those values that were once considered doctrinal for the Left, then we have arrived at a strange pass indeed. And Liberalism, to paraphrase Sam Harris when he was describing religion, has become a worthless suitcase term – likes ‘sports’.

    • Liberius

      The term liberal, at least in the US, hasn’t meant anything for decades. And I believe it was Stalin himself who said that while the West would reject Communism, it would adopt its every position in the name of liberalism.

  • texlovera

    We have met the enemy, and he is us….

    • Sue Smith

      Oscar Wilde?? (LOL)

      • Mars_Ultor

        Khayyam’s rubiyat are timeless.

  • Cranios

    What is called the Left today is really fascism. Big government control of everything, and conform or be beat up (literally or figuratively). What they really hate is freedom of choice for anything other than abortion.

    • Sue Smith

      Yes, and there’s been a book written on that very theme. I posted the link somewhere on these pages yesterday!

    • new_number_2

      Stalin outlawed abortion.

    • RicardoRed

      Like big government doesn’t exist on the right. They just outsource it. Just because they government feeds you the line they are freeing you doesn’t make it so. Socialism should be about bottom up democracy. Empowerment of the many. This might be in reality be naive vs the reality of decision making and the needs to leadership, but it’s clear Corbyn is going to attempt it.

      • Cranios

        Would love to respond to your comment, but it’s incoherent. Is English a second language for you? If so, please get someone to help you.

        • RicardoRed

          Yes. I have been learning this new language. I believe you are, let me get this right, a “patronising cant”. Have I spelt that right?

          • Cranios

            No, “patronising cant” is not an English phrase. Google translate can’t be relied upon to accurately translate into another language, it can only give you the meaning of individual words.

  • SGT Ted

    Nick, I hate to break it to you, bro, but the left has ALWAYS been like this. It wasn’t righwingers that sent assassins to kill Trotsky in Mexico. It wasn’t rightwingers that airbrushed people out of photographs because they dissented from the party line.

    • Liberius

      What we call the Left is actually Socialist, and has pretty much taken control of all of the Left Wing parties in the Western world. Classical liberals have been left in an uneasy alliance with the Right (which we fit poorly with, and has often sought to silence and disenfranchise us) since the Reagan era.

    • TatR

      The Left = Stalin. Yes, that’s exactly the kind of insight Cohen appears to be veering towards as his mental capacities disintegrate. Very insightful, you’re way ahead of him.

  • Aggie95

    ITS FUNNY BUT WE SEE THE SAME SORT OF TERRORISM FROM THE LEFT HERE IN THE u.s ….. WHEN YOU LOOK AROUND THE COUNTRY ( THE u.s ) and then listen to the left bemoan all the problems…. if you are a discerning sort you might come to the understanding that its the left who has created the very problems they profess to be attempting to eradicate …… LOL< …..funny

    1- bad schools ….. the left has run the school system in the U.S for decades
    2- racism …… the democrat party built created and fought to maintain the very institutions that drove the civil rights movement are are responsible for laws ….programs and policies that we have even today
    3- crime ….. the democrats run the very places in which most of the crime happens ….. large cities ….. they attempt to blame republicans and groups like the NRA for gun violence but most of the gun violence is in the very place that have been run and controled by democrats for decades and by the people ( blacks and Hispanics ) who nearly university support the democrat party …. in fact the higher the vote was for Obama the higher the body count

  • new_number_2

    “If you are a woman, you face misogyny. Kate Godfrey, the centrist Labour candidate in Stafford, told the Times she had received death threats and pornographic hate mail after challenging her local left. If you are a man, you are condemned in language not heard since the fall of Marxist Leninism. ‘This pathetic small-minded jealousy of the anti-democratic bourgeois shows them up for the reactionary neocons they really are,’ a Guardian commenter told its columnist Rafael Behr after he had criticised Corbyn.”

    The problem with both these examples, if their intention is to make a broader point about the left, is that they are two isolated incidents that come from anonymous sources.
    It’s quite desperate for Cohen to have to rely on an unidentified poster writing on the Guardian.

    • Shawn Smith

      Or is it possible he’s just using these as specific examples of a general trend? Do you really think he would be writing this if those 2 cases were all he could point to?

      • new_number_2

        “Do you really think he would be writing this if those 2 cases were all he could point to?”

        Yes, because he had a point he intended to make and it didn’t matter if the evidence was there or not.

        • Penny

          Do you think the type of behaviour noted is uncommon?

          • TatR

            It’s very common, but it’s certainly not *specific* to people who like Corbyn.

  • Chris

    Left and right isn’t the only political dimension; for example Green or Grey is another one. My suggestion would be to translate up the environmental political axis into a new spot and when you do you will find a great party who recognise that left of centre social justice is a fundamental requirement to convert our economy into a sustainable one. They are not the uneducated underground. They are academics and research scientists and extremely well educated passionate people. Don’t go blue! Go green!

    • Leon Wolfeson

      Fighting energy generation and for part-time power is just not that popular.

  • Francis Beckett

    Oh, Nick. When I was president of the NUJ and being scapegoated by the “left”, a very wise older woman, now dead, said “Don’t let the bastards push you to the right.” A very foolish young left wing MP once said in disgust, as the far left scapegoated him, “the only thing that prevents the coming oif socialism is socialists.” That was my father, and you know where he ended up. That’s not where you’re headed, of course, but try to see what is happening to you. Comrade.

  • Thomas LaBelle

    I left the left shortly after 9-11, realizing that they would apologize for fanatics that would sooner kill them than look at them. What took you so long?

  • Leon Wolfeson

    That’s right, you declare only the right is acceptable, like the hard right. That’s…sad.

    The causes you care about opposing, as the right have eroded them badly…as you demand money from workers, for your “constructive dismissal” – as you support Torynomics against British workers…

  • Viking.

    The Left are not protecting our nation or the British people. So why do people vote for Labour instead of for a party that defends the rights of the British people? We need a new electoral system of proportional representation, so that parliament is filled with people that genuinely represent the electorate. Those that are in power do things to us for our own good whether we like it or not. They genuinely believe that they know better than the average citizen. Let the people decide for themselves what sort of country they want to live in.

    • Rudy

      The Left is at war with the British people. They have been trying to demographically displace you for decades. The Left is pursuing this campaign in every Western nation.

      • Jon Stone

        Rudy, you damned loveable maniac.

    • Jon Stone

      I’m all for democracy, but you seem to be assuming that the people have some kind of shared collective sense of purpose, that ‘average citizens’ everywhere agree with each other. They don’t. The electorate is a sea of factions and conglomerations of principles and prejudices. If you let ‘the people’ decide on every matter, half of them will always be pissed off that the other half got their way.

      I agree proportional representation is hugely desirable though. What we want is politicians with contrasting views representing different groups and ideals, engaging in vigorous debate and negotiations. Not this voting bloc business.

  • even stares

    You’ve come to the same conclusion about yourself, Nick, as we reached about you a long time ago.

  • jimb82

    I look forward to the gay pride parade outside the mosque on Friday.

  • Rudy

    Leftism is a cultural disease.

    • Jon Stone

      There, there, baby.

  • Jon Stone

    I swear this is the millionth article Cohen’s written about Corbyn being the end of Labour. Like Dan Hodges – and like five-year-old children – he seems to operate according to the principle that the louder and more often he screams, the more people will pay attention to him. Each article is less rational and more hysterical than the last.

    Judging by the comments below, the Spectator seems to be the right fit. Nice little cult/treehouse club you’ve got going on here, sitting around planning how to expunge the influence of the terrible mythical ‘Left’ all day.

    • TatR

      Even the other folks on the Spectator podcast thought he was going a bit far. Nobody likes to see people throw a tantrum in public, and Cohen is making it an art form. He’s basically useless now.

  • paulthorgan

    Labour is now being run by neo-communists.

    • Jon Stone

      That’s a neat new spin on an old slur. Wonder if it’ll catch on.

  • L. Kurt Engelhart

    “fall of Marxist Leninism” You mean Stalinism?

  • Poster#5

    In their desire to embrace pluralism and create a more humane world, Western leftists hit back against a prevalent colonialist mentality and widespread xenophobia in the last century: work that is ongoing today, and which has improved my life, as a mixed race person, tremendously.

    Out of a vigorous, and noble, detestation of sexism, bigotry, and homophobia, those Western leftists made triumphant gains in the 60s and 70s, revolutionising the way millions of people perceived same-sex love and individual expression. All this is very good; it was what attracted me to the left in the first place. Compounding this has been a dissatisfaction with economic inequality, the major cause of which, I strongly believe, is the greed of the very wealthy, not the laziness or incompetence of the poor.

    In the present time, as misogyny, homophobia, racism, and political repression, often as a result of the victories of Western leftists, have become ever more concentrated in far-flung regions of the world, because they have been (albeit not completely) bludgeoned here, an impasse has been reached.

    In large part (Russia is a notable exception, putting the lie to pseudo-intellectual race centric explanations), many of these evils are now flourishing in the cultures of people of colour. This is a situation Western leftists have shown no sign of being able to navigate. To reconcile their profound disdain for the persecution of gay people with their disgust for that branch of insidious rhetoric used to demonise other countries and lay the ground-work for colonial misadventures seems almost impossible.

    Either David Cameron is allowed to criticise Iran’s atrocious human rights abuses or he is not. If he is; he is, and he gains the upper hand in presenting the UK as a more ethically evolved nation. If he is not; who loses? To some extent David Cameron, which could make some of us feel good for a while, but it is the countless numbers of queer, atheist, and democratic people suffering at the hands of the Iranian theocratic police state who suffer most. It seems obvious that our concern should lie so heavily with them that thoughts of David Cameron drift regularly from our minds.

    But right now, that does not seem to be the case.

    And that is a terrible state of affairs – one in which the British left, no less than the American left, is mired.

    As a 21 year old University student, I want to examine the many ways in which we can perpetuate cruelty upon one another; I want to dissect them intimately, discover correctives, and shout them from the rooftops. Diverse interests in politics, philosophy, and poetry make me excited about a future career in either journalism or academia. I respect business people, scientists, and engineers greatly, but I know how my life can be put to best use, and I am a humanities person through and through.

    Since I began thinking seriously about politics, after History and Geopolitics made a very unexpected intrusion into my personal life, it has been my hope to be objective, though principled, with regard for those who truly suffer, and are therefore perpetually voiceless. In doing so I expected to find common cause with the left based on our shared values and commitments. I would, in this scenario, not be a partisan, but a troubadour, extolling good ideas and reasoning against bad, while making myself as pleasant to listen to as possible.

    This no longer seems feasible. The left has abandoned its most noble traditions, in favour of snide bickering and the establishment of a perverse victim culture. I may still write, of course, and advocate for universal values such as human rights, fundamental sexual, ethnic and religious equality, and free speech, but it is not clear in which family of thought and action I may from here on repose these efforts.

    So, in the years ahead, then, I shall be following the writings of Nick Cohen closely. One cannot make improvements to the world alone, after all. Perhaps he will point me towards a new collective. I have some ideas of my own on this count, but I have already waffled on for too long.

    Thanks, Nick. I appreciate the article!

  • Esmee Phillips

    “The US leftist-turned-neocon Irving Kristol”

    Kristol found various ways of serving the one cause he cared about. As has Cohen. Baneath the accidents of ideology runs the eternal loyalty.

  • SpeccieMailTrueBlueTilYouDie

    Frankly I’m pretty shocked to see this sentence appear – “Labour’s new leader sees a moral equivalence between 9/11 and the assassination of bin Laden, and associates with every variety of women-hating, queer-bashing, Jew-baiting jihadi, holocaust denier and 9/11 truther.” – that is downright libelous because it is absolutely and obviously untrue: tantamount to accusing Corbyn of being an anti-semite. His parents fought in the battle of Cable Street, which he honours and is proud of. Cohen hasn’t quite got the guts to say it out loud – because he knows it’s not true. But in anyone’s book its a smear. Shame on the Spectator for publishing it.

    Beyond that its the routine hypocrisy of this article that’s really jaw-dropping. Labour and the the Tories have been cosying up to the anti-semitic, gay hating Saudis for 2 decades. Where was Cohen’s faux outrage then? Ditto what about the cosying up to Gaddafi? And that’s not even to mention the two spectacularly stupid wars in Afghanistan and Iraq, the second illegal, unbelievably reckless & a colossal backwards step which has spurred Jihadism on for another generation at least (and who apart from innocent Arabs themselves are likely to suffer from this most – clearly the Israelis). Who opposed it: Corbyn. Who didn’t? Cohen and his sanctimonious ‘real-politicas’.

    Instead he settles on misrepresentations of Corbyn reaching out to terrorist organisations – no doubt often pointlessly – but he’s clearly not encouraging them to commit terrorism is he? Of course not. By that logic Neville Chamberlain, pillock though he was, wanted to see more Kristallnachts.

    Has Cohen never learnt the basic lesson that where possible jaw-jaw is better than war-war? I mean considering that Corbyn is now apparently guilty of sponsoring of stoning to death of women because he was interviewed on Iranian TV – does Cohen also think Obama shares the Ayatollah’s ambition to obliterate Israel? He to must surely be as guilty by association according to this insanely juvenile logic.

    A lot of crap has been written in the last week – (and as a Corbynista I’m not deluded – his decision not to sing the national anthem was an act of hubris that has probably doomed him from the outset) – but this mindless, steaming turd from Cohen is an affront, or should be, to anyone with a mind – and to borrow a phrase from a Spectator hero – a sense of ‘the trusty shield of British fair play”.

    • Jack Rocks

      The trouble with your thesis (at least part of it) is that it doesn’t take into account actual reality. The reality is that oil is a vital interest so being close to the Saudis is important (at least for now). You can argue they have too much influence but not that we should place ourselves against them.

      Then there’s the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq. The former happened because Afghanistan was operating terrorist training bases and host to the people who destroyed the World Trade Centre as well as sponsoring other atrocities across the world, notwithstanding the horrific and disgusting regime it hosted – the Taliban.

      I note with interest nowhere in your comment do you mention the people living under these horrific regimes – Gaddafi, Hussein, the Taliban and so on, or the people from those countries who dedicated their lives, often being tortured and killed for their trouble, fighting for democracy in the region. You also fail to mention or condemn the people who sponsor all of this regional skulduggery, mainly Russia, Iran, Syria, Pakistan and others.

      If you think Liberal Interventionism is a bad thing, be prepared to argue against it in places like Bosnia (where 8,000 Bosnian Muslims were put into mass graves in a manner not unlike the SS Einsatzgruppen circa 1941-1944). Be prepared to defend doing nothing.

      Of course a simpleton like Corbyn appeals to you. He’s never had to make a decision in his life. He’s been completely free to make his argument without it ever having to come into contact with actual reality. The situation is different now. He’s leader of the opposition. For a while at least.

      • Jon Stone

        “He’s been completely free to make his argument without it ever having to come into contact with actual reality.”

        As are you, of course – very easy to call people ‘simpletons’ from the comfort of your armchair, isn’t it?

        Very easy as well, I note, to wring your hands about how difficult it is for our government to deal with such tricky, deadly situations in the Middle East without dealing with reprehensible characters, and then go right back to criticising Corbyn for anything less than absolute purity.

        • Penny

          The point Jack Rocks makes about Corbyn having been free to make his arguments without having coming into contact with reality, is not a particularly unfair one, Jon.

          The huge leap Corbyn has taken from being a back bencher – and one who has hardly been a household name – to the leader of the opposition is not a mere detail. He has relatively little – if any – experience of decision-making at this level, and has had almost no exposure to the media or the public. Other than those who are not strangers to Corbyn’s name (I’m one of them), he will not have come under the type of scrutiny he must now expect.

          It is much like a party in opposition. While its job is to scrutinise and criticise, what it has during these periods is the luxury of opinion, because it is not holding the reins of power. When that changes, the landscape looks very different.

      • Anthony Cavanagh

        If you agree with Liberal Interventionism, then do you also agree if it goes wrong causes a massive refugee crisis that we should take those refugees in ?

        • Jack Rocks

          What has caused the refugee crisis? 4 out of 5 refugees in Europe aren’t Syrians, they’re just bog standard economic migrants. Russia has tanks and soldiers in Syria, not the UK, not the USA. ISIS are sponsored by some very shady regional actors, not the UK or the USA.

          I think you should lay the blame at others, not us.

      • SpeccieMailTrueBlueTilYouDie

        1. Thanks for not querying that this article is a slur against Corbyn’s character. I think we can take as read that Cohen’s article is effectively libelous.

        2. I was not arguing that the west has to stop negotiating with places like Saudi Arabia – I was questioning Cohen’s selective memory whereby he has no problem with our traditional alliances with extremely unpleasant regimes but throws his toys out of the pram over Corbyn’s associations. It goes beyond disingenuous – it’s a manufactured smear.

        3. 15 years ago I would have favoured liberal intervention – because I was ignorant of the histories of the countries we were intervening in and our own past records. Even commentators like Tariq Ali – have made the point that a liberal intervention with a coherent plan of how to govern could have been justified in Afghanistan in particular. But there was no plan & there was no interest in one & guess who after over a decade of fighting & thousands of deaths is now poised to take over (not least because most Afghans welcome them)? I suspect you don’t know a great deal about Afghanistan’s history – how the Taliban were effectively a US sponsored creation. This series is a good primer – http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/adamcurtis/entries/fc69b85a-c6b1-3363-baeb-24418e99b683

        4. Those who seek to defend Liberal intervention have to be intellectually honest and work from their worst cases. 8,000 mass graves in Bosnia is horrific – but 40,000 people were killed in the bombing campaign alone in Libya if you really want to start bandying numbers about as though they’re a final proof of moral righteousness. Libya was a deeply unpleasant malfunc