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The Vicar of Baghdad: 'I've looked through the Quran trying to find forgiveness... there isn’t any.'

Isis bombs have exiled Canon Andrew White to Hampshire, but he's itching to get back to the Middle East

21 November 2015

9:00 AM

21 November 2015

9:00 AM

Canon Andrew White, the vicar of Baghdad, is not, in person, at all as I’d imagined him. His memoir, about life as first a medic, then a cleric, is chock-a-block with famous friends. Pope John Paul II was a pal, the Grand Ayatollah of Baghdad, General David Petraeus. ‘Oh, Andrew knows everyone,’ I was told when I asked anyone about him, and I’m afraid my heart hardened. I arrived in the rain at his house in Liphook, Hampshire, preparing myself for a vain man, full of his own derring-do.

More fool me. Canon White is instantly, unusually lovable. He greets me wearing a sweatshirt with the caption ‘Real men become vicars’. ‘Look!’ he says delightedly. ‘Look at my hoodie!’ We talk for close to two hours about Islam, Isis and evil, and his work as a mediator between the various hate-filled factions of the Middle East. By the time I leave it occurs to me that Canon Andrew White is something of a saint.

It’s not that he’s perfect, but that he’s guileless. He’s pure of heart in the way few people over five ever are. It makes sense that he’s spent two decades as a peace-maker, negotiating with tyrants and psychopaths, because he’s utterly disarming.

We sit in his study, which is arranged like a front room in the Middle East: seats around the walls. And on most of the seats, perched or lounging, is a young person, all employed by White’s foundation (for relief and reconciliation in the Middle East). Throughout our interview they fuss over White, organise him, join in the conversation, which is interrupted from time to time by phone calls from a man called Des who has been given the job of finding for the Canon the perfect red suit-lining.

I say: ‘I gather the Archbishop has recalled you. He’s said it’s not safe for you to stay in Baghdad?’ Canon Andrew nods glumly, but he admits that his friend Justin Welby has a point. They worked together mediating in Nigeria, so the archbishop is not risk-averse. But Isis are now too dangerous. ‘Isis are on the doorstep of Baghdad. Their bombs are going off all the time,’ says White. Not least last Friday, when, before the Paris atrocity, a suicide bomber blew up 18 Shia Muslims. Has he ever been personally threatened? ‘I invited an Isis man to dinner to talk once,’ says White, ‘But he replied -saying that if he came he would chop my head off.’

This sounds crude enough to be a bad joke. It wasn’t. And if White had his head removed he wouldn’t be the first member of his congregation to be assassinated by Isis.

St George’s, White’s church in Baghdad, once had a congregation of more than 6,000 and a school, a clinic and a food bank. This great community has been more than decimated by Isis. ‘They killed over 1,000 of my congregation,’ he says. ‘Can you believe that? And now the others have fled, too.’

‘It’s not just Isis.’ This from a girl who looks 15 but is 27-year-old Dr Sarah Ahmed, sitting in pyjamas on the sofa. She’s White’s right-hand woman, a Muslim, still working in Iraq. She says: ‘The truth is that the congregation came to hear Andrew — Christians and Muslims both — and now he’s left, they’ve gone. There were 46 who came last Sunday. Forty-six!’

Muslims came to an Anglican church? ‘People respect faith in Iraq,’ says Sarah. ‘They can see he is sincere.’

So is it better to be a Christian negotiating with Muslims than to be secular, I ask. I’m always hearing that religion is the problem, not the solution, in Iraq.

‘Yes, absolutely,’ says White. ‘People say it’s important to keep religion out of the peace process in the Middle East, but you can’t have a peace process without religion. You can’t have politics without religion in the Middle East! It’s impossible. Faith is our common ground.’

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How on earth do you reconcile factions who think each other literally Satanic? ‘You listen to their stories,’ says Canon White. ‘You get to know each person, love them. Perhaps you can persuade them to hear each other’s stories. That way the conspiracy theories unravel.’

This isn’t just talk. He’s had great success. ‘We signed that declaration up there,’ he points at the wall proudly, ‘That is the Chief Rabbi and Hamas saying, “We will work together and we recognise that the one thing we have in common is the belief in one God.” ’

Here we have a break for Canon White to talk to Des. The red lining is so vital, it turns out, because he is going to Jerusalem and he wants to take it to his tailor there. White is a lifelong Judaeophile and clearly longs to be back in Israel.

You’ve met with Hamas and the PLO in your work as a mediator, I say. You were actually friends with Yasser Arafat. Is that difficult for a lover of Israel?

‘Oh yes,’ says White cheerfully, but adds that it actually causes problems with pro-Israel western Christians, not with Israelis. ‘They say, “How can you deal with evil men? With these evil Muslims?” Well, I don’t like the term evil Muslims. They are no more evil than Christians are. We haven’t got a very good history either, have we?’

Equally, it’s pro-Palestinian Christians, he says, who mind his friendship with Jews.

And Isis? Can you hear their stories? Will they hear yours? White’s face falls. ‘It’s hard with them, because with Isis it is just about power. You see, these are Sunnis who felt that they had control once. Even under Saddam they had power and influence. And if you want power back, what do you do? You use force. If you can’t win democratically, you blow people up.’

But they’re so extreme, I say. All those civilians in Paris. All those children, and fellow Muslims. Aren’t Isis unusually evil?

Here White is out of step with liberal opinion. He agrees absolutely that Isis are uniquely horrible, but he thinks the problem of talking to them comes from within the Quran itself.

‘The trouble is a lack of forgiveness in Islam. I have looked through the Quran trying to find forgiveness… there isn’t any. If you find it, tell me. This makes it very difficult to talk to Isis because they can show you quite clearly that it is what Allah wants. They can justify their position when Allah says you should combat and fight the infidel and they say, “Well, these are infidels.” So the question is, how can you prove that these are not infidels? And you can’t.’

So what’s the answer, Canon White? Is it ground troops? In recent weeks he’s been quoted calling for boots on the ground. He’s a tough guy, for all his soft heart, and an admirer of the military.

But is he quite sure that as a man of peace, he wants war? As White begins to nod, Dr Sarah pipes up again from the sofa. She says: ‘Andrew, come on. It will not help! Yes, maybe with violence they will make some temporary progress, but it will also fuel tensions.’ She turns to me: ‘If I am angry with Andrew and I hit him I feel better for two seconds but then he would hit me back and there is no end to it. No end.’

There’s silence for a while. We both look at White. He says: ‘I know what she says is right. War creates war and we have to find other ways round doing it. Even as a raving Tory like me, I have to say Sarah is right.’

It’s the measure of the man that he listens and doesn’t stick to his guns.

Both Dr Sarah and Canon White agree on one thing: that however we combat them, Isis must not be underestimated. They’ve lived with Isis. They know.

Even now, post-Paris, the West is inclined to say: Oh, Isis are just idiots. If we grown-ups put any real effort into it they’d be easy to wipe out.

Not so, say Canon White and Dr Sarah. She tells a story about the way Isis captured a Yazidi village, which demonstrates unusual cunning: Isis first came to the village promising peace, she says. Then they said to the Yazidi: ‘We’re worried you’ll fight us, so if you really want peace too, give up your guns.’

This the foolish Yazidi did. On their third visit Isis came and surrounded the now unarmed Yazidi. They took the women and girls as sex slaves and shot all the men, bar one who played dead under the corpse of his brother and survived to tell Sarah the tale.

Clever Isis, tactical Isis.

So what can we do? ‘We can hope,’ says White, ‘and we can pray.’

The wind blows. The phone goes. Des has finally found him the right red material to impress the Israelis. White is delighted. He seems itching to be off. ‘Do you miss the Middle East when you’re not there?’

‘Oh yes!’ he says, with a look outside at the grey and gusting November. ‘I may no longer be the vicar of Baghdad, but the Middle East is home.’

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Show comments
  • Mark

    Get a “scholar” on the case. The lack of forgiveness is probably because you have to read it in context, or perhaps he read a bad english translation. The best one though is you have to read it in Arabic otherwise, you’ll never “get it,” and forgiveness is probably lurking there, in the bit after chopping feet off or something.

    • Dominic Stockford

      He is right – the concept of forgiveness is not there.

      • rockylives

        Which is depressing, because it implies the hardliners will continue to win out in Islam because their holy book justifies their actions more than it does the approaches of the so-called moderates.

        • Dominic Stockford

          For those who have no faith in Christ as being ‘more than conqueror’, no hope in eternity through him, and put faith only in mankinds feeble efforts, then yes, it must be very depressing.

  • terry richards

    ‘If I am angry with Andrew and I hit him I feel better for two seconds
    but then he would hit me back and there is no end to it. No end.’

    So what should we have done in WWII, just let Hitler get on with it?

    • Tom M

      My thought entirely. You would think that a casual glance at the 10,000 years or recorded human history might convince them that ideas like that don’t work.

      • terry richards

        Yes, she betrays a breathtaking level of naivety, ignorance and dimwittedness.

    • Dr. Heath

      If the Corbysaurus had been alive then, he’d have urged caution. If Obama had been around, he’d have platitudinised in the nauseating and anile manner of a Sunday Worship vicar on Radio Four. At the time, we had conscientious objectors and pacifist crackpots like the MP James Maxton, whose life Gordon Brown mindlessly commemorated in a some sort of hagiography. Then, fortunately, sanity prevailed and people like Maxton were ignored. Today, our politicians are posturing onanists and of less use in a life-or-death struggle than soggy loo roll at a curry festival.

    • rockylives

      Exactly. There is such a thing as a just war from time to time. Sometimes even a necessary war.

      Unlike Blair’s invasion of Iraq, a war to destroy Isis would be a just war for the good of humanity.

    • mickey667

      But the philosophy of Nazism and Fascism was inextricably linked to the State and victory in War.

      Destroy the State and you destroyed it. No successful fascist movement was ever without a nation state, and any insurgent ones always had, as their fisrt aim, to seize the state.

      This is holy different kettle fish. We knew how to beat Hitler. Win the war. But n this instance, what war, with whom and when can we say we have won it?

  • Torybushhug

    HERE ARE TONIGHTS QUESTION TIME MINDLESS AUTO-APPLAUSE GENERATORS;

    “Make no mistake, this has nothing to do with ordinary Islam, this is about criminal behavior”

    “The vast majority of Muslims want nothing to do with extremism”

    “Immigrants do not come here to claim benefits” (so why don’t they shun the border people showing
    them a menu of entitlements then?)

    “Before we go dropping bombs, isn’t it about time we cut off ISIS

    funding” (trying to down play the role mainstream Muslims have in ousting all the bigotry and division enshrined in the cult)

    “If imperialist Britain and America had kept their noses out of the Arab world we wouldn’t be
    reaping this wind”

    “The real issue is Saudi funding of ISIS, the very kingdom we rolled out the red carpet
    for”

    • Richard

      All the usual PC Leftie rubbish, in other words. God knows how this country lurches forward from day to day, with morons like that seemingly so numerous.

    • justejudexultionis

      All true except we really should shaft Saudi and Qatar very hard indeed as they too are propagators of Islamic bigotry. We should also shaft Turkey as they are undermining the most effective opposition we have against Isis, i.e. the Kurds.

      • Todd Unctious

        ……and Kuwait, and Bahrain, and the UAE.

        • justejudexultionis

          Naham, ya habib.

        • Dominic Stockford

          It is interesting that Bahrain are not in fact mixed up in all this.

          • Todd Unctious

            They are. Swiss accounts provide money to these creeps.

          • Dominic Stockford

            An interesting assertion, given that we have no idea what goes in and out of Swiss accounts. I hope you have friends in Bahrain, or they might take amiss at such comments, and discuss libel with you.

          • Todd Unctious

            Bahrain has stamped out all peaceful protest except support for ISIS. They have sent a message to the bad guys to say “we love you”. Bahrain is in up to its neck.

          • Dominic Stockford

            Evidence please.

        • Alexsandr

          Quatar

      • Dominic Stockford

        Turkey are partly responsible for this trouble, and even though they have ISIS bombers killing people on their own streets they still boo when there is a silence in memory of those murdered in France.

      • Gilbert White

        Everybody wants us to hate Saudi . To control its oil and mahadi potential is the wet dream of many. Turkey is the enemy?

    • Frankfurt 13

      You still watch the BBC?

  • ill-liberal

    I’m not sure if they are smart and cunning from that tale, more that the villagers were a little naive, to say the least.

    • hobspawn

      And yet the village of Westminster follows the same course.

  • Precambrian

    Would Mohammed have told the crowd “he who is without sin cast the first stone”? Or would he himself have cast it?

    • zanzamander

      Actually, if you look it up, you’ll find that Mohammad actually gave guidance of the size of stone to be used: not too big that the victim dies quickly, not too small so as to do very little damage. Just the right size to inflict maximum pain for the longest time.

      The Islamic Penal Code of Iran Article 102 follows this guidance.

      Such is the way with the prophet of Islam.

      • Dr. Heath

        He seems to have been an utterly vicious c*nt.

        • Richard

          Unbelievers will also be given a drink of boiling water by Allah for starters.

          • Dr. Heath

            The Big Guy also seems, does he not, to be a bit of a Knut.

          • Richard

            The whole first third of the book is about how awful the unbelievers are. It is very aggressive and hostile (not to mention mediocre). You should give it a read sometime. I really don’t know what all the fuss is about: if God is such a mediocre chap, I am really turned off. It comes across very much as an also-ran affair.

          • Dominic Stockford

            The only command not to kill is a command to the Jews – apparently it is a terrible thing if they do kill anyone – the next verse of the surah then tells Muslims that it is great that they kill Jews…

          • Bonzo

            Yes, the oft misquoted surah 5 verse 32 and the never quoted surah 5 verse 33.

          • Dominic Stockford

            How nice to meet another educated soul. 🙂

          • Genie Balham

            Indeed came across this ‘approach’ on several comment threads today….sigh.

          • Alexsandr

            seems clear to me

            Indeed, the penalty for those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger and strive upon earth [to cause] corruption is none but that they be killed or crucified or that their hands and feet be cut off from opposite sides or that they be exiled from the land. That is for them a disgrace in this world; and for them in the Hereafter is a great punishment,

            http://quran.com/5/33

          • Dr. Heath

            I read the Koran many years ago and found it to be incomprehensible. This is not because the world lacks people who can translate the meanings of the Arabic text but because the Arabic text itself is full of words and phrases that, in fact, are meaningless and for which meanings therefore have had to be generated through a now unchallengeable consensus of ‘scholars’. Whoever wrote it appears, to judge from the book’s clunky and ranting theology, to have belonged to a clearly peripheral and perhaps very small sub-population of an Abrahamic, Syrian faith community. That breakaway group, as with schismatics throughout history, convinced itself that ‘the faith’ had been betrayed, having been polluted by, I think, allegedly polytheist heresies involving the Trinity and the Immaculate Conception.

            Hitchens rightly compared Islam’s inception to that of Mormonism. In both cases, the human authors of these faiths’ holy texts appear poorly versed in the theology of the religions they claim to supersede. Both texts are pastiches, the products of amateurs who have failed, for whatever reason, to bring forth anything matching the literary achievements of the many unknown authors of orthodox Jewish and Christian writings.

          • Richard

            I do agree that the references to Judaism and Christianity are fleeting and superficial, as one might expect from people on the periphery of the Judaic and Christian world. There is also very little comprehension of what either of these two religions actually are.

          • Ron Todd

            As a new religion the people making it up would not want to alienate potential recruits by totally discarding local custom and religion. They kept the lump of rock in Mecca and all the nonsense ritual involved with the Hajj. For a more sophisticated feel they would borrow from the more advanced peoples around them and from their religions. they were a newly literate people it would be unrealistic to expect them to produce something equivalent to the King James.

          • Dr. Heath

            Yes. It’s a vigorous but ramshackle reformulation of whatever people in the region had been taught – as subjects of the Byzantine empire – was the true faith. The most convincing argument I’ve read is that most, if not all, of the Koran consists of 5th and 6th century Aramaic/Syriac prayers. This theory also suggests that they were transcribed into the newly developing [post 650 CE] Arabic script and Arabic language. Scholars might in time find some substantive evidence to clarify these matters.

          • PreachJohn

            @ Stockford—It is beyond human calculation what that mistranslation in Exod. 20 “You shall not kill” has wrought.
            The Hebrew states literally “You shall not unjustly kill.” Often translated correctly as “You shall not murder’.
            Anyone reading the Tenach with a modicum of intellectual honesty would be painfully aware that there is massive and desperate contradiction contextually of that horridly injurious mistranslation “You shall not kill”.

          • Richard

            A bit like Mary being “a virgin” when it was actually that she was “a maiden”: even later revealing the true meaning does nothing to change theology.

          • PreachJohn

            Granted that ‘bethulah’/’virgin’ was not used in Isai. 7:14. In that period’s mindset, ‘almah’ sufficed as quite commonly interchangeable in the seven instances in the Tenach/O.T. Writings. There is no truly valid reason to suppose otherwise. Shocking and antithetical as that may be to the modern Western pseudo/quasi Christian mindset.
            What is unique and compelling to this one of seven uses of ‘almah’ in Isai. 7:14, is the word ‘sign’, the definite article preceding ‘almah’, and ‘Emmanuel’, translated ‘God with us’.
            But that Miryam remained virginal after Jesus’/Yeshua’s birth is contradicted by Matt. 1:25. Where the word ‘monogenes’/’only or uniquely’ is not used as in Jn. 3:16, but rather ‘first’ or ‘preeminently’ born. You can’t have a first born without at least a second born.
            In fact, Jesus had two half Sisters and four half Brothers. Some of whom were Leaders in the early Christian Church.
            Every title and function ascribed to this mythological ‘Virgin Mary’ of the R.C. Institution and their Legio Maria’s ‘Cult of Mary’/Rome’s own words, is in violent opposition to and soundly refuted in the body of the Old and New Testament Writings.
            i.e. Perpetual Virgin/I’ve dealt with that above. Mother of God/Heb. 7:1-3. Queen of Heaven/Jer. 7 and 44. Immaculate Conception meaning that she was born sinless/1851. Refuted in Lk.1:47 when she addresses ‘God my Savior’. Only sinners talk that way. Bodily ascended/1950. Scripture? Universal Mother? Then John is the Universal Son by the same reasoning/Jn. 19:26,27. And so on…

        • Scradje
    • Rocksy

      I think he did.

    • Zytigon

      I think that quote from John 8v7 about not casting the first stone is one of the best, most caring, humanitarian lines of Jesus. However maybe the scriptwriter could have had Jesus say, “A real god would do any terminating all by itself and would not need us humans to pick up weapons against each other. There are examples in the stories of the Septuagint where the god of the Israelites is shown doing supernatural terminations such as with hail in Joshua 10v11 or the plagues of Egypt in Exodus 11 or striking those responsible for the golden bull incident with plague in Exodus 32v35 ” ( Interesting to note that it looks like the Levites slayed the wrong 3000 (v28) if there were still folk left to be hit by plague ) Actually archaeology by Israel Finkelstein and others shows that the lack of evidence for the Exodus stories points to them being little more than myth and legend of the order of King Arthur.

      The Old Testament stories have people fighting over irrelevant arbitrary matters while never getting towards the information, science & technology which have improved our quality of life in so many ways. If Moses had a real god doing things of real observable benefit then people would have soon turned to such a god as first choice and would have given up on something that was no more than a statue. As it was there was little difference between the two.

      Another good story attributed to Jesus is the one about the caring actions of the Samaritan who overlooked differences in theology to help the man injured by the bandits (Luke 10v25-37) However how come the imagined angels don’t prevent such violence in the world or undo it ?

      • Ivan Ewan

        You’re talking about an imaginary world that you haven’t thought about and don’t yet understand. A world where knowlege of God has nothing to do with faith, but constant, irrefutable evidence; where angels regularly intervene to keep anyone from ever doing anything wrong; a world of clockwork where no-one is free and where all the universe is a toy for the amusement of a child.

        You’re talking about the Problem of Pain as if it hasn’t been answered a thousand times.

  • zanzamander

    Mary, Islam is like no other faiths. In fact it is an Arabic imperialism, a political, military and judicial ideology – all wrapped into a religious garb of Islam. To equate it to Christianity or any other faiths is a big mistake.

    There is no forgiveness in Islam, there is no tolerance, benevolence or indeed compassion – what there is, exclusively applies to the followers by the followers of the faith – it most definitely doesn’t apply to any non-believers.

    Please arrange a meeting with Raymond Ibrahim, look him up on the internet and speak to him.

    • Dominic Stockford

      Or alternatively go to the Barnabas Fund website, where various useful information can be found which will teach you the truth of it.

      • Murti Bing

        Jay Smith is also excellent on this subject.

    • YasirDuhham

      Mary Was An Only Child, brainwash her, never spare a spot (LOL)

  • whs1954

    “If I am angry with Andrew and I hit him I feel better for two seconds but then he would hit me back and there is no end to it. No end.”

    If Dr Sarah is angry with Andrew and she hits him, she feels better for two seconds. But then maybe he takes a knife to her throat. That’s an end to it, isn’t it? A real and lasting end. Not that I think two devout Christians should do this to one another when politely debating who takes the bin out.

    In turn, of course, there is indeed an end to ISIS. When we have completely and utterly destroyed the filthy barbaric ideology behind this and either un-brainwashed those who follow it, or by other means destroyed it. Sow salt across a broad swathe of western Saudi. There is no other end to this – none, none whatever – other than the complete and utter destruction of the motivating factor. But if that is done, that will be an end to it.

    Ceterum censeo religio Islamica esse delendam.

    • whs1954

      “If I am angry with Andrew and I hit him I feel better for two seconds
      but then he would hit me back and there is no end to it. No end.”

      Further to this (arrogant though it is to respond to one’s own comments) when the Nazis hit us, and we hit them back, there was not “no end to it”. We kept hitting them until we had hit them so hard they could not hit back. Then there was an end to it. So this analogy is utter tripe.

      • Todd Unctious

        True. But first we indulged the Nazis from 1922 until 1939. Allowed them to become established in 5 or 6 major European countries, allowed them to take power and set about terrorising their minorities and opponents. We let it drift for far too long and the beating of them nearly bankrupted us and led to appalling carnage. Evil triumphs when good men do nothing.

    • Ahobz

      I have often thought of Cato’s words in relation to ISIS. I can see no other way. Does the West have the balls for what is involved? I doubt it.

      • justejudexultionis

        Stupid Cameron has reduced our armed forces to nothing.

    • justejudexultionis

      Removing ISIS is only the beginning. Islam should be removed from Europe entirely. The followers of Muhammad clearly can’t behave themselves.

      • The_greyhound

        Miss Sturgeon wants to flood Scotland with them.

        • Todd Unctious

          In a population of 5,250,000 , 20,000 is not a flood. It is a blip.

          • Tamerlane

            It is if they’re on your estate, in your school, using your surgery, taking your welfare etc etc.
            For a leftie you have a non-existent appreciation for the realities of lives lived at the mercy of the state, but you’ll bleat about it nonetheless.
            Or maybe you just want more of your brothers in to join the Respect Party alongside you.

          • Todd Unctious

            Do I pose such a threat to you that your only answer is to misrepresent me as a Respect party member? Do you really have no genuine arguments? Troll.

          • Todd Unctious

            So charming and inclusive as usual. Nitwit.

      • Alexsandr

        this is the trouble. People say we have to fight ISIS or Daesh or whatever they are called this week. But that is wrong. If we destroy ISIS then another mob will pop up to take over.

    • Serenity Now

      Unfortunately, this is what happens when you allow women a say in running civic society and foreign policy. They’re governed by emotion and give way to philosophically unsound ideas.

      As Chesterton said, “War is not the best way of settling differences. It is the only way of preventing their being settled for you.” No, war isn’t usually the best alternative, but sometimes it is.It certainly ended the N*zi Party’s hold on Germany and expansionism and death camps, for instance. Of course, the underlying moral corruption that led to their rise would have to be dealt with differently, but that’s why each problem requires its own particular remedy.

      • bionde

        Your attitudes towards women are so Dark Ages I wonder if you are Muslim?

  • hobspawn

    There is no point killing muslims. All will die anyway. The real enemy is the book. You have to destroy the book, until no copy exists anywhere. It can not be done.

    In the meantime, at least know your enemy: all moslems. Treat them with love when you can, but know that they live to kill you.

  • will91

    Mehdi Hasans on qt tonight!

    Let me guess, nothing to do with Islam ayy Mehdi?

    • dwarfpoo

      What a hateful creature he is..

  • justejudexultionis

    Islam is a bigoted political death cult masquerading as a religion.

    • Dominic Stockford

      Yes. But those in it have been conned by satan’s masquerade.

    • Todd Unctious

      I must admit I am heartily sick of those sanctimonious Islamic intellectuals wheeled out by the media, who preface every glib pretence at concern with “Islam is a religion of peace”. Rubbish. It is an arrogant ,expansionist ,intolerant monster, that insists on keeping its faithful in the dark ages.

  • justejudexultionis

    I’ll stick with the infinitely superior and sophisticated religion of Christianity in which salvation is given to us through the suffering of God himself on the cross and we are told to treat others better than we treat ourselves. Islam could not be further removed from the loving, merciful God of the New Testament.

    • Dominic Stockford

      yes sir.

    • Todd Unctious

      Islam has had no Reformation. Islam has never modernised. Islam is anti-modernity and seeks to make Europe suffer. They never target Latin America, the home of the largest numbers of Christians. It is not about religion. It is about wealth and progress and resentment. The terrorists are little more than gangland thugs with a grudge.

      • justejudexultionis

        I agree but the reason they do not target Latin America is that it is much less accessible for them than South America. Also, there are not large numbers of disaffected Arabs in Latin America that they might be able to use as terrorist recruits.

        • Todd Unctious

          They hit the Twin Towers, i’m sure they could reach Brazil or Mexico.

          • justejudexultionis

            I suppose, but Latin America is fairly peripheral to what goes on in the Middle East and is not seen as the heartland of the west, which would be the case with the US or Europe.

          • Todd Unctious

            Their crappy book tells them to take the conflict to all infidels. Why do they not hit Fiji , or Japan, the Gambia or Bolivia?
            Because their crappy book is just an excuse for organised gang violence and arrogant macho posturing.

          • Serenity Now

            It’s more than that. Europe is “next in line” geographically speaking. Islam was born in the Mideast, initially conquered the old Christian lands of the Mideast and North Africa, and then was finally stopped in Europe. If they vanquished Europe, they’d move on from there.

            Of course, they are active in other parts of the world, including Africa. They couldn’t do much in Japan because that nation doesn’t allow immigration. And the formula is simple: no Muslims=no terrorism.

          • Todd Unctious

            Most Muslims live in Bangladesh, Indonesia, India and Pakistan. Also Nigeria, Sudan, Kazakhstan etc. They are not all Arabs intent on overrunning Europe.

          • Serenity Now

            Yes, and they’re causing problems everywhere they’re found. Ever hear of Boko Haram?

          • Tamerlane

            ‘Todd Unctious’ used to be ‘Yvonne Barry-Hargreaves’, he is an activist for the Respect Party, just so you know what you’re dealing with here.

          • Alexsandr

            has he given up ball room dancing then?

          • Todd Unctious

            Liar. Why do you insist on repeating that you think I am a Respect activist? Read my posts, I patently sm no such thing . Just because I disagree with you and have challenged you in the past does not make me a Respect activist. Just because you dislike opposition and seek to troll my posts does not change the fact. I am not. I once voted for them. Big difference. I bet you oncectried cannabis. I assume therefore you are an addict.

      • Dominic Stockford

        This is incorrect. Their activities are intended to bring about the second coming of the mahdi, which will presage the end times, when all will be cleansed except faithful muslims, and the entire world will be dominated by islam.

        They concentrate in Europe as one of the predicants for this to take palce is the recapture of the territories they have once held – Hungary, Turkey, Spain, Portugal, parts of france and Italy, and so on.

        • YasirDuhham

          The Mahdi is a fable, it is Jesus Christ himself, no Mahdi no other title.

      • mickey667

        It did modernise, but that was hundreds of years ago.

        It has had a counter-reformation, that is the problem. The real nasty turn came with Wahhabism in the deserts of Saud in the 20s. It will turn back, but probably long after all of us are dead (…from old age that is 🙂

      • Serenity Now

        Your equating of Catholicism with Islam is wrong-headed and counter-productive. The Reformation was not rebelling against anything even remotely like what we’re dealing with in Islam. In fact, Martin Luther’s theses involved just two basic ideas: that the Bible is the central religious authority and that humans may reach salvation only by their faith and not by their deeds.

        There was nothing remotely close to what Muslims perpetrate to complain about, and it gives Islam too much credit to imply otherwise.

        • Ron Todd

          Pre reformation
          (and for a while after) the papal State was a a fairly nasty regime.

      • Shoe On Head

        Islam has been going through a reformation for over 150 years.

        It needs a counter-reformation (away from Salafi/Wahhabi).

        • YasirDuhham

          Away from Shiism too, look as a bird does .

      • Alexsandr

        Islam cant have a reformation. Read your Koran.

      • YasirDuhham

        Did you reform your Christianity or Judaism , as a starter? Is it a software or a Deity thing? Are you entitled to reform a monotheism itself or restore it back to default in stead? Islam offers a constitution, laws are derived from it, the reformation you talked about is not needed by Islam itself, it is the visions and interpretations that took Muslims astray. You are treating it as an blind surgeon would be doing !

    • Shoe On Head

      Christanity lost its spritual core post-enlightenment.

      There’s nothing in Western Christianity that can nourish a metaphysician. As it has always done, and is beginning to do now, the West will always seek its divine impulse from the East (e.g. buddhism/sufism).

      Always will.

      Christianity, like Islam is a semtic religion.

      • ardenjm

        “There’s nothing in Western Christianity that can nourish a metaphysician.”
        I’ve read some tosh in my time, but this takes the biscuit.

        Aristotelian-Thomism not metaphysical enough for you?
        LOL.

        • Shoe On Head

          It used to be and remains in eastern Christianity. all there is canonical prayer. it’s not enough for true practicing metaphysicians. zero. zip. nada. unconvinced.

          • ardenjm

            Well if it’s swathes of Palamasian incense that you like your energeia/entelecheia surrounded by, then, sure, go for it.
            But don’t call it metaphysical.
            Call it mystical. Because that’s what you’re actually talking about.

            (Look, rhetoric aside, the two aren’t antithetical – but the Orthodox parody of the Western Thomistic tradition as dessicated rationalism is just as wilfully wrong-headed as my acerbic treatment of Palamas above.)

      • johnb1945

        I find Protestantism allegedly Calvinist/ Lutheran mish-mash-but really RC lite- CoE to have done the job for me.

        Horses for courses.

      • freddiethegreat

        I’m sure it has in many places. But not all. I should know.

    • YasirDuhham

      ” Its only words”. I have never seen that ” Christian love and compassion” you are gargling here, except where there are aids & relief, for the funding that lies underneath it, and for the missionary role you always seek as a price to pay.

  • Mr. Bernard Wijeyasingha

    Islam is one of the oldest of the 6 major faiths. It is also one of the youngest. Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism, Sikhism, Buddhism and Shintoism.

    The Sikh faith is around 500 years old and is not connected to Islam.

    The Hindu and Shinto faiths go back eons and well before Christianity, Judaism or Buddhism.

    Islam began in the 7th century AD and since then has evolved into roughly four separate forms. With a population of 1.5 billion Islam is present in every habitable continent, represents every race, and is spoken in almost all the major languages of the world.
    There is
    the Sunni
    The Shia
    The Sufi
    The Bahai
    I am sure there are subgroups among these and outside of them.

    The Sufi are the mystical aspect of Islam where Sufi saints freely moved across any faith without prejudice or animosity. A Sufi believes that Jihad is a war fought inside a person, a war between the aspects of good and bad.

    The Bahai faith sprang from Iran and from Islam. It is a monotheistic faith that believes in the unity of all religions.

    • Genie Balham

      A sufi imam called for the lawyer of an alleged apostate (of islam) to be killed in Pakistan…. Not all sufis are meek and mild.

      • Mr. Bernard Wijeyasingha

        And a Sufi led a war (I believe) in Eastern Europe. They are the exception and not the rule

        The subcontinent has the most number of Sufi Shrines where both Muslim and Hindu visit. The city of Faterpur Sikri was built by Emperor Akbar because a Sufi Saint foretold that Akbar will give birth to a boy. It is one of the worlds most well planned (and abandoned) cities.

        Sufism played a major role in the subcontinent where over 500 million Muslims call home or 1/3 of the entire Muslim world. (Pakistan 185 million mostly Sunni Muslims, India 180 Million mostly Sunni Muslims, Bangladesh 160 million mostly Sunni Muslims)
        ( “India Shattering the Illusion. The birth of New Nations. Kashmir to Elam” by Columbus Falco)

    • johnb1945

      I know a few Bahais and none of them would claim to be a type of Muslim, even though their faith sprang from it.

      If anything, they view themselves and their views closer to Christianity.

      • Mr. Bernard Wijeyasingha

        That is exactly what I said. Bahai is a new faith which came from Islam. They are NOT Muslims and I never made that statement that they are.

        • johnb1945

          You put it in in a list with several recognised sects of Islam.

          Never mind, it doesn’t really matter, I get what you were saying.

          • Mr. Bernard Wijeyasingha

            I agree but I clarified that the Bahai are a faith (and not a sect of Islam) that sprang out of Islam. anyway now we are on the same page.

    • Jab

      Buddha was not a god and has nothing to do with “faith’

      • Mr. Bernard Wijeyasingha

        Jab
        Which aspect of Buddhism is Buddha not a God?

        Hinayana:? under this system which is the oldest the Buddha is a Guru, or teacher,

        Mahayana? under this system the Buddha is a God, with angels, heavens, hells and means (the greater vehicle) practiced in China since the 2nd century AD.

        Vajrayana? Under this branch of Buddhism the Buddha and Hindu Tantra are joined together. Icons of the Buddha are shown copulating with the Goddess Tara. It is the form of Buddhism practiced in Tibet. this form of Buddhism makes reincarnation central for the Dalai lama has the same soul in a thousand different reincarnations this too has the Buddha as a God with heavens, hells etc.

        Zen? that form of Buddhism was brought to Japan by an Indian monk named Bodhidarma and it combined with the Japanese faith of Shinto and the tradition of the Samurai.

        During the 2600 years of Buddhism the first 2 mixed up a lot. Hinayana and Mahayana became interchangeable in various degrees. “Lord Buddha’ as he is called is worshipped.
        On the top of Indian Stupas and Sri Lankan Dagoaba are a spike showing many lines, each line is a new level of heaven

        when the Stupa went to East Asia it became the Pagoda where only the spike became the architecture while the dome (which represents the Universe if one looks at if from the outside) was forgotten

        The Kyoto Buddha in Japan still carries the Hindu tilak or the dot on the forehead. That massive Bronze Buddha was built in the 16th centiury.

        • Jab

          The 2 world leaders of Buddhism , the dalai lama and Thich Nhaht Hahn both say that the buddha was not a god.Vajrayana is not about worship of deities , they are used to access the nature of buddhsim in every being.

          • Mr. Bernard Wijeyasingha

            In Mahayana Buddhism the Buddha is elevated to a God. When the Buddhist council met in Kashmir for the 3rd time, the majority supported “Mahayana” Buddhism, the minority supported “Hinayana” Buddhism. For thousands of years both in India and especially in China the Buddha was treated as a God with several levels of heaven and h*ll

            Since then both Mahayana and Hinayana have mixed. the term “Lord Buddha” is taken literally by the laity even in Sri Lanka. Within Hinduism the Buddha became yet another “Avatar” of the Hindu God Vishnu further cementing his divine origins.

            The Kapilavastu relics are the most holiest relics of Buddhism. Found by the British in Nepal they are now the property of India. Dogabas like the Jetevaranama Dagoba which is still the largest brick structure in the world, houses the Buddha’s belt. The Temple of the Tooth in Kandy Sri Lanka is considered one of the “holiest” centers of Buddhism since it contains a tooth of the Buddha given to King Devanmanpiyattisa by the son (and monk of Emperor Ashoka in 300 BC.

            The 22 thousand page Tipitaka is the holy book of Buddhism that was put into writing by King Vattagamini in the 1st century BC at the site of Thambapani in Sri Lanka. Every aspect of Buddhism including the 3 jewels of
            honoring the Buddha
            Honoring the Sanga (Buddhist order of Monks_
            Honoring the Dharma (law of man, society and universe) have redefined the Buddha into a divine being. Even statues of the Buddha include
            the halo
            webbed fingers
            One of the first times an order for nuns and monks in any faith who are only devoted to the Buddha

          • Mr. Bernard Wijeyasingha

            Finally Jab
            If you assume the Buddha (the enlightened one) is in some way equal to Confucius, Plato or Socrates you are incorrect for they do not have
            temples built for them
            Priests, nuns and monks devoted to them
            Holy relics across where ever their philosophy spread
            Holy books such as the Tipitaka
            and all the strapping of a religion.
            The Buddha has all of that and by that separates him from contemporaries who remained philosophers..

          • Jab

            I dont make assumptions Bernard , I dont understand why people think the Buddha was a god.No evidence he said he was.People just built temples

          • Mr. Bernard Wijeyasingha

            One more thing Jab
            On the top of a statue of the Buddha is a round shape. That is NOT his top knot. Siddhartha cut his top knot off when he left Lumbini the city he grew up. That is called the “Usni” or a center of energy.

  • Tabishe

    The Quran is full of references to peace. In relation to God (Allaah), then there are hundreds of verses in which he refers to Himself as “the Most Merciful, the Perpetual Forgiver, All-Compassionate etc.). In relation to Allaah commanded the muslims to be merciful there are many verses where Allaah states this. for example – Allaah says in chapter 21 Allaah says “And We have sent you (O Muhammad)not but as a mercy for the ‘Alameen (mankind, jinns and all that exists)”. As a general rule this verse tells the Prophet as well as the muslims that the model muslim is one who is merciful to all. Also in chapter 60 Allaah says “Allah does not forbid you to deal justly and kindly with those who fought not against you on account of religion and did not drive you out of your homes. Verily, Allah loves those who deal with equity”. again the Prophet said “Whoever kills a mu‘aahid (a non-Muslim living under Muslim rule) will not smell the fragrance of Paradise, although its fragrance may be detected from a distance of forty years.” If you cannot kill a non-muslim whilst under islamic rule, how can we kill non-muslims under non-muslim democracy rule. Again the Prophet Muhammad said “If anyone wrongs a mu‘aahid (non-muslim), detracts from his rights, burdens him with more work than he is able to do or takes something from him without his consent, I will plead for him (the mu‘aahid) on the Day of Resurrection.” Now how can anyone say that Islam is a religion without mercy!!? If you still dont believe me, let me show you more proof byt the will of Allaah. Allaah said in chapter 5, “and let not the enmity and hatred of others make you avoid justice. Be just: that is nearer to piety”. This means that even if there is a dispute between a muslim and a non-muslim, do not side with the muslim based on his religion, rather be just and decide correctly. Again when the Prophet came back to Makkah to take it back, he asked the people who kicked him out originally, today there will be mercy. He could have killed them for all of the companions of his who they killed but rather he was merciful to them.
    Allaah is chapter 9 says “And if anyone of the Mushrikun (polytheists, idolaters, pagans, disbelievers in the Oneness of Allah) seeks your protection then grant him protection, so that he may hear the Word of Allah (the Qur’an), and then escort him to where he can be secure, that is because they are men who know not.”
    ISIS do not care if you are a muslim or a non-muslim, they do not show mercy to the muslims let alone the non-muslims.
    I have showed you ample evidence which proves that islam is a religion built on mercy, and I did that from my limited knowledge and time. A schcolar of islam would be able to provide much more authentic evidence on the mercy of Islam. I ask all the readers to read the quran sincerely and be just when deciding on islam.
    May Allaah guide us all

    • ardenjm

      You confuse magnanimity with merciful forgiveness.
      I don’t doubt that Islam and the Koran speak about being magnanimous towards the wrong-doer but that’s not what Fr Andrew and Christianity in general mean by forgiveness: which is found in the wounds of Christ Crucified and His words from the Cross, “Father, forgive them, they know not what they do.”
      In short, forgiveness is an act of redeeming love that pays the cost of the wrong-doing.
      What you’ve offered above are a series of transactions – generous, no doubt, magnanimous also – but not what Christ reveals to us in the Gospels.

      • Tabishe

        I now understand what you mean. But think about it, is forgiveness to the ones who dont believe the way in which we judge if a religion is true. For example if we go on the day of judgement and God tells us that he does not forgive the people who die whilst being disbelievers and that this is the correct belief, would we turn around and say no God thats not the correct ay. What im trying to say is that God tells us in the quran that He is the most forgiving if you repent to Him. Then there comes the debate whether Islam is the truth or not. I personally believe Islam is the truth and that the quran is the unchanged word of Allaah (God). Therefore I take the quran as guidance and I am content with what God says is correct. He is all wise. May God guide us all to His straight path.

        • Mongo

          “I personally believe Islam is the truth and that the quran is the unchanged word of Allaah (God).”

          personally I believe the Quran is the unchanged word of a narcissistic ego-driven warlord with a messiah-complex (pbuh)

          • bionde

            I agree. Look at the website Examine Islam for a list of atrocities committed in the name of Islam in the last few years.
            It is more like a cult than a religion in that it empowers men to have total control over women, encourages marriage to very young girls, makes women cover up, kills those who want to leave the sect and threatens an apocalypse.
            I firmly believe that if the West survives in its present civilisation we will look back in amazement at how our leaders sleep walked into this situation and that there were so many apologists for Islam

          • freddiethegreat

            Be nice when you argue. I personally don’t believe the Koran etc, but he is arguing reasonably

          • johnb1945

            That isn’t very nice.

            You may very well believe that, but Tabishe has describe his views eloquently and politely.

            The least you can do is properly explain why you disagree, rather than being impolite.

          • Alexsandr

            1. there is no god, no allah, no heaven
            2. the Koran is quite clear. Muslims have a duty to kill infidels and create a worldwide caliphate
            3. Their so called prophet was a violent, intolerant paedophile.

          • johnb1945

            Yep. I can see why your post might be deemed unreasonable.

            Here goes.

            1. there is no god, no allah, no heaven

            That’s your personal belief. Not a fact. Tabishe has shown some humility, at least afford him the same and prefix with “I believe”. You might even add “Because” and give an explanation of your beliefs.

            2. the Koran is quite clear. Muslims have a duty to kill infidels and create a worldwide caliphate

            At least acknowledge that many Muslims don’t interpret it that way and enquire why.

            3. Their so called prophet was a violent, intolerant paedophile.

            Right. Muslims don’t believe that. If you want to have reasonable conversations with them, this should probably not be your opening statement.
            Otherwise you should stick to preaching to the converted, just as other radicalisers do.

        • freddiethegreat

          The big difference, Tabishe, is HOW does God forgive? If God is holy and we are not, he can’t just laugh that off. If he just forgives because he is forgiving, it detracts from his justice. And if he did, why should he not just forgive everyone?

        • Dr. Heath

          Non-Muslims don’t care whether Muslims “tolerate” them. Most do not care remotely what Muslims believe or, in a growing number of cases, what any religion encourages its followers to believe. Non-Muslims want to be left alone. Non-Muslim societies are secular and have laws protecting everyone. That’s as complicated as it needs to be.

        • Ivan Ewan

          Oh, so we won’t be decapitated IF we repent, by which I presume you mean convert to the slave-religion of Islam. Or maybe we get decapitated anyway and “Allah” sorts us out later.

          Gee, that’s really nice of you. I don’t know if you’ve realised this, but other religions have a much much higher standard of forgiveness, grace and mercy. Your religion breeds nutcases that fly off the handle at the slightest provokation and spill blood as enthusiastically and easily as a dolphin spills water.

      • Hegelman

        It must be pointed out to the hearty Western jingos that the
        Koran is quite a liberal text compared to the Bible. It is considerably
        less ruthless than the Old Testament and has not the anti-Semitism of
        the New Testament. Jesus endorsed the Old Testament very explicitly, be
        it noted.

        The difference is that the West has discarded the Bible while Muslims still take the Koran seriously.

        If the West had not secularised under the influence of great thinkers like Voltaire and Marx it would be Christian bombers at work today.

        • pobjoy

          The difference is that the West has discarded the Bible while Muslims still take the Koran seriously.

          The West did not discard the Bible; Europeans feared and detested it, banned its use by ordinary people, and set up a ‘church’ to murder anyone who followed it. To the east, Islam wrote a contradictory ‘scripture’, and also murdered any who followed the Bible.

          The difference is that, in Europe, the Bible was translated into vernacular languages, the ‘church’ was seen as fraudulent, and democracy took its place. In Islamic countries, there is no genuine original scripture to replace the violent one still in use. It should not be forgotten that the Qur’an is an illegal book in every non-sharia country.

        • ardenjm

          Oh for pity’s sake. I’m not going to take lessons from someone who names himself after Hegel and who cites Voltaire and Marx as somehow saviours of European peace.
          Let me spell it out for you real simple:
          You don’t like Jesus’s followers and you don’t much like Jesus.
          I don’t like Marx’s followers and I certainly don’t like Marx.

          Jesus “endorsed” the Old Testament not to fix it in aspic but in order to shoe that it came from the same source as He Himself did – God – in order to find its accomplishment in Him – hence the end of animal sacrifices and Temple worship, hence the tightening of Mosaic Law on divorce, hence the command to love one another and to serve one another.

          Sure, many of His followers have failed to live up to that and done wicked things. But WEIRDLY you tax the followers of Christ with violence and intolerance and blithely forget that the followers of Voltaire and Marx exhibited industrial levels of intolerance themselves.

          As for ‘secularism’ leading us into the great sunlit uplands of peaceful, tolerant co-existence – you’re having a laugh. The industrial maw that Marx protested against was entirely a production of the secular enlightement. Irony, of ironies, the oppressive totalitarianism that was Maoism and Stalinism, was likewise the purest product of the secular Enlightement and in very short order – just a hundred years – proved FAR more capable of wiping out its victims. And whilst we’re at it – so too does our Liberal Democracy whose abortion holocaust over the last 40 years has been one of the motors of the mass immigration of workers into Europe in the fast place.

    • johnb1945

      Fine.
      It’s clear most Muslims don’t support ISIS and that there is a spiritual, benevolent side to Islam. It is less clear, however, that mainstream Islam as practised today is not chauvinistic, obtuse, supremacist and disparaging in its attitude towards “kafirs”, their ways of life and their religions.

      I am a Christian. I view the Qur’an from that perspective and notice the differences between it and Christianity. Islam has a model for creating God’s supposed kingdom on earth. in Christianity God’s kingdom occupies mens’ hearts. Islam has no notion that God created us in his image and that we are fallen through original sin – thus men can exact a divine law (Sharia) on God’s behalf and redeem themselves through rites. In Christianity no rite is worthy of God, and no (fallen) man is worthy of asserting God’s will over others. Instead one is compelled to be humble, faithful and loving as per the example of Jesus.

      In Islam, the Qur’an is seen as the literal, eternal, immutable word of God which cannot be changed or criticised. In Christianity scripture is seen as written by imperfect, fallen men. They may have put their own spin on it, so one is encouraged away from literalism and to seek broad meanings. Christian and Jewish scripture is also highly allegorical. It strikes me that much in the Qur’an is direct, and its meaning self evident.
      One other major difference I notice is that the relationship with God in Islam is intercessory, and Muhammed was the final intercessor. Even Muhammed didn’t speak to God, he did it via Gabriel. This is vastly different from Christianity, in which God created us specifically so that he could bring us closer to him and interact with us.

      I believe the biggest single and most problematic issue in Islam is the idea that a man is redeemable through rites. It means that men who follow the rite can assert that they are better than others who do not. It places huge power in the hands of men to judge others.

      I hope that Muslims will find a coherently Islamic way to reform their religion. It is clear that most Muslim are not bad, violent people, but we should not deny that there are issues in the Islamic tradition which are the wellspring of Islamism.

      For our (non Muslim) part, I do not wish to deny the link between Islamism and Islam. This is a way to shut down debate.

      At the same time, I do not wish to tar non-Violent Muslims with the brush of ISIS.

      I feel one way to do this might be call ISIS (and Hamas, al Qaeda etc.) what they are – Salafists. Or Wahabbis. A type of Muslim, practising a type of Islam, not representative of all Muslims, and we can think of a different name for their Shia counterparts.

      Just my thoughts…

      • Alexsandr

        ‘It’s clear most Muslims don’t support ISIS’ Is it? Where were the massed ranks of Muslims last weekend marching thorugh Leicester, Southall, Dewsbury and Bradford with banners saying ‘n ot in my name’?

        • johnb1945

          Where were all the non-Muslims?

          I wasn’t there myself.

          Must mean I support ISIS.

          • Alexsandr

            were they killing in the name of your religion? Is ‘Allah Akbar’ some christian phrase now?

          • johnb1945

            So therefore they approved, eh?
            You’ll find quite a lot of #NotInMyName stuff on social media.

          • Alexsandr

            Oh wow. you can sit in your bedroom and tweet. big deal.

          • johnb1945

            I don’t understand your point.

            Are you saying that all Muslims who did not attend solidarity marches last week support ISIS?

          • Alexsandr

            Dont know do we? thats the trouble. They are not willing to stand up and be counted.
            Maybe they prefer to sit indoors and watch TV?
            But they dont seem to want to say to the world ‘Our religion is not nasty and we are here to say so’ Why not? If you religion was being linked to vile behaviour would you not want to shout about it? or would you stay home and watch Corrie?

        • Toy Pupanbai

          ‘Moderates’, are the seas in which, ‘Activists’, swim!

    • freddiethegreat

      The trouble is, Muhammed at different times said different things – like Jews being apes, and removing the heads of believers. I have to say that Isis at least take the Koran seriously and literally.

    • Alexsandr

      or maybe there is no god, no allah, no sky fairy. So you have spent your life following a mysogenistic, paedophile intolerant violent death cult. We saw in Paris on Friday the true face of Islam and the b*st*rds there satisfied their blood lust. and again today in Mali.
      You should be ashamed to have anything to do with rotten putrid thing that is Islam.

      • Tabishe

        Compare how I commented and how you commented. Islam teaches me to to speak nicely and justly with the non-muslims, your lack of religion has taught you the opposite

        • Alexsandr

          compare how when I rejected the CofE when I was late teens, my parents didnt wish to kill me.
          And I dont need a lecture from someone from the same religion as people who shout allah akbar before slaughtering people. And a religion that regards me as an atheist as the worst sort of infidel.

          anyway, what part of ‘mysogenistic, paedophile intolerant violent death cult’ is wrong?

          • Tabishe

            Do I want to kill you? I have no such inclination. You have asummed the worst aboutthe whole muslim population. This type of assumption is prohibited in Islam

          • Alexsandr

            i really dont know. If i had asked one of the murders on their way to paris last Friday do you think they would have said they were going on a killing spree.

            I know the Koran instructs Moslems to kill infidels, and that obedience to the book is required.

            so I say again, what part of ‘mysogenistic, paedophile intolerant violent death cult’ is wrong?

          • Tabishe

            If there are 16,000 suicide bombers in the world, which there arent, but if there were, that would make up 0.001% of the muslim population. I think that fact alone has refutes your argument. Goodbye

          • Alexsandr

            how many back office people does it take to support one bomber. the fundraisers, the people who procure the equipment. the passport forgers etc.

            have you followed what happens to your zakat?

          • Tabishe

            Are you saying that all muslims are involved? Zakat goes to poor people. We either give it to themnourselves or to charities. Are you saying that these charities are also linked to terrorism?
            Where does your tax go? Right into Britains’s war machine.
            Honestly, after reading what you have to say, I do not have time to listen to you. Goodbye

          • Fulgentian

            Zakat goes to poor MUSLIMS, not poor infidels.

          • Alexsandr

            wimp out when losing. nice one.

          • Alexsandr

            i dont know where muslim crarities spend their cash. do you?

          • Ivan Ewan

            1/8 of your zakat has to go into jihad, and yes, it turns out that a large proportion of Muslim charities are linked to terrorist organisations.

            But you know that. Otherwise you wouldn’t try to buffer yourself with counter-accusations.

            Have fun repeating the word “goodbye”, I get this feeling you’re going to be peddling your propaganda a lot around here and we’re not the mugs you’re used to.

          • Tabishe

            And kindly watch this with sincerity – http://youtu.be/Jy9tNyp03M0
            Also read and learn about the quran with sincerity. Learn from the muslims scholars not the ones against Islam. Be fair and just and balanced

          • Ivan Ewan

            Mehdi Hassan, the guy who quoted the Koran’s statement that non-Muslims are to be treated like cattle. Very convincing.

            Islam is a “peaceful” religion, in that once everyone else has been butchered and only one man is left standing on a mountain of skulls, there will be “peace”.

    • Ivan Ewan

      Well we don’t believe you, because any time a Christian in the countries you hold says “we don’t believe you”, he gets killed. Any time a Christian says, “I think Jesus might see things differently from Mohammad”, she is beaten or killed. Any time a Muslim makes a joke involving Mohammad, he’s killed.

      It turns out that Allah/Mohammad have very strict criteria for times when someone should be forgiven and let go, and very very vague, fuzzy criteria for when someone should be straight-up murdered.

      Oh Allah, Most Merciful, Most Gentle, who shall we massacre to-day?

  • huw

    a true saint.

  • http://fitfldad.com Christian Salafia

    5 seconds on the Google.

    Guess he didn’t look too hard.
    https://www.alquranclasses.com/quran-forgive/

    • Ecgwine Icling

      yeah, he means human forgiveness, as in “forgive us as we forgive our debtors”. Of course every other verse in the Quran states Allah is “most merciful”. I’ll admit the text wasn’t completely unequivocal but still… nice googling, but maybe next time spend more than five seconds figuring out what is being said.

    • MC

      The quote you gave mention the fictitious allah forgiving, not real people forgiving real people.

      • YasirDuhham

        Check my reply to the Vicar : Are you sure you were reading the Quran and not the Torah ?Two locations
        at least speak contrary to your alleged findings. From Surat Al
        Jathiyah: “(14) Tell those who believe, to forgive those who do not look
        forward to the Days of Allah: It is for Him to recompense (for good or
        ill) each
        People according to what they have earned. “. And from
        Surat Al-Noor: “And let not those among you who are blessed with graces
        and wealth swear
        not to give (any sort of help) to their kinsmen, Al-Masakin (the poor),
        and those who left their homes for Allah’s Cause. Let them pardon and
        forgive. Do you not love that Allah should forgive you? And Allah is
        Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful. (22) “.

        • MC

          Again, the fiction of Allah is specifically forgiving, people are mere bystanders. There is not forgiveness in the vile verses of Koran.

          • YasirDuhham

            ” That a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest, lalalalala ” , but you are not even a man !

  • freddiethegreat

    I actually envy this man his guilelessness.

  • Scradje

    The story he tells about Isil’s demonic behavior in the Yezidi village sounds uncomfortably detached. There seems to be no acknowledgement of the extreme savagery and horror; instead of rage and condemnation he complements the tactical skills of these degenerates.
    Kill all of them.

    • Toy Pupanbai

      Albi?

  • Kasperlos

    Those without having an understanding through a comparative religions study might be naive enough to think that the three Abraham religions are cut from the same sheepskin. For example, where in the Koran is there the beauty, comfort and compassion of the Bible’s Book of Psalms? Yes, the bible too contains harsh words of violence, but the point is that there is nothing in the Koran comparable of living this life per Christ’s teachings.

    • pobjoy

      naive enough to think that the three Abraham religions

      Some say that Abraham was a mere, ignorant shepherd, but, according to the record, he owned more livestock than many prosperous farmers today, and employed many. The thing is, was he also clever enough to hold three self-contradictory views at once? 🙂

      According to the ancient book of Genesis, Abram (as he was named then) was regarded as morally perfect because he trusted his deity, and was therefore re-named Abraham. Islam, otoh, over two and a half centuries after Abram/Abraham, said that Allah might regard a Muslim as acceptable if he or she prays five times a day, fasts, etc. Not the same Abraham at all.

      Now, what sort of a deity changes his tune after 2600 years? Or was Muhammad an early exponent of the historical fiction genre?

    • smoke me a kipper

      Is Christ not the second most importantl figure in Islam

      • Richard Baranov

        Jesus is the second most important, he is the one that will descend and judge us on Judgement day according to Islam. Christ is the second persona of the Trinity and is a blasphemy because Islamic fools will keep on persisting that the Trinity means Christians worship three gods despite all the evidence to the contrary.
        The Islamic position is a great example of ignorance and idiocy in the face of fact. Because the Koran and Islamic belief insist Christians are polytheists regardless of the fact that it is false it must be true because what the Koran says trumps reality, hence demonstrating that the Koran is false in the first place. Truth, I think, you will agree, does not contradict what is real.

        • pobjoy

          Christ is the second persona of the Trinity

          What precisely does that mean? It seems like a demonic ambiguity.

          Islamic idiots will keep on persisting that the Trinity means Christians worship three gods despite all the evidence to the contrary.

          Muslims are not idiots. The clever ones know very well that there is one deity, that Jesus was his manifestation (or Son, in the NT), that he died for them to atone for their sins, and they owe him everything for that. They mendaciously accuse Christians of polytheism, but they actually refer to papists and Orthodox, antichrists, as they are. These fellow travellers have a ‘theology’ that really is polytheist, with their trinitarian heresy (to say nothing of Mariolatry, that Muslims also share). Clever Catholics, Orthodox and Muslims fear and detest Christ, because justification by faith sounds simple, but it is too demanding for them, their pride and selfishness. They substitute justification by works, to be carried out by those whom they exploit. The works do not matter; they would teach justification by standing on your head, if it would save them from the hygienic effect of justification by faith.

          A ‘pope’ kissed a Qur’an. That says everything we need to know.

      • YasirDuhham

        He is revered in Quran as one of the elite prophets and apostles( the ones whose missions were greater than else, having too many miracles to aid them spread their faith), same is his mother’s status in Quran ( being called The Best of All Women in The World), but never as if a son of God. The idea of his miraculous creation is a challenge that God made similar to his super powers of healing and bringing back the dead . His miraculous creation was proceeded by Adam’s creation long before that ( Born from clay, without a father, nor a mother),or Eve too. If he had any super powers of his own he wouldn’t had been crucified.

        • Ivan Ewan

          Islamic Jesus is the one responsible for completely c**king up his mission, accidentally kickstarting the biggest infidel religion in the world, resulting in millions of people doomed to burn forever because of his “fake crucifixion” party trick. Islamic Jesus is the most incompetent prophet conceivable.

          So, no, Jesus is not “revered” in the Koran, but mocked

    • Hegelman

      The Koran is actually liberal compared to the Bible. However, Westerners have junked the Bible and moved on and thus acquired humanity and tolerance whereas Muslims continue to be old fashioned believers of a type Jesus would respect much more than he
      would the humanists of the West.

      Saudi Arabia would be the nearest to what Jesus would see as a good state today.

      If Westerners had not secularised thanks to giant thinkers like Voltaire and Marx it would be Christian bombers at work today, not Muslim ones.

      • Andropov

        You no nothing about Bible. You never read it.

        • YasirDuhham

          and it is (Know) Jackass, not (no), go to elementary school first of all

          • Andropov

            It is? And why don’t you correct your Quran and Mohammed’s hatred of Jews.

          • YasirDuhham

            First you defend Christianity, then you defend Jews, perfect as an advocate of Azazel

          • YasirDuhham

            Repeat After Me: Inta Tiswa Rasi Ya 3iraki, Aani muttee Rusee

        • YasirDuhham

          Is it one Bible to say he never read (it)? You are a moron, there are 4 Bibles and a Barnaba one too, one Bible speaks of a totally different thing from the other versions

          • Ivan Ewan

            Well I wouldn’t expect a Muslim, particularly one as vile as yourself, to know anything about the Bible whatsoever.

            There are not four Bibles, there are four Gospels – accounts written separately about the life of Jesus on Earth, years later and from different perspectives. The “Book of Barnabas” or whatever, is known to be a fake, and the only people who seem to think Christians are fooled by it, are Muslims. Generally Muslims stupid enough to listen to garbage-recyclers like Zakir Naik. Have you been listening to Zakir Naik on that subject, by the way, or just drinking paint? The effects can be quite similar.

            The Dead Sea Scrolls proved that the Bible’s original texts have barely changed in the slightest bit since it was first laid to paper.

            As for the Koran, you’re going to have to take it up with ibn Uthman, original Koran burner and original Koran editor. 🙂

    • Hegelman

      You clearly know the Koran very little. In Arabic its words are said to be hypnotic, and it has great rhetorical passages. Islam has a huge tradition of mysticism. I am too lazy to do the reference work for you. I don’t like ignoramuses.

      • pobjoy

        Perhaps the Qur’an is used for one reason only: it contradicts the Bible. At any rate, if christophobes want confirmation bias, the Qur’an offers it by the truckload. In that it would be akin to the writings of ‘Early Church Fathers’ (who were actually late bastards); though even more, to the Book of Mormon, a ‘scripture’ that is laughable in its provenance, as well as its content. A ‘scripture’ that is given to just one ordinary individual can hardly be credible. A deity, being intelligent, would give partial revelation to a long series of authors, and only when they were complete would the revelation make full sense. Of course, there is only one horse in that race.

        In Arabic its words are said to be hypnotic

        But then Buddhist mantras are hypnotic, too. Most followers of the Qur’an, including thosde who recite it, do not understand one word of it, because they know no Arabic. Yet, when challenged about problems in the Qur’an, Muslims say that translations will not do, and a person must know Arabic to properly understand the Qur’an!

        it has great rhetorical passages

        To anyone familiar with the Bible, the Qur’an apparently lifts chunks out of it (again, like the BoM), and arrogates their authority to another deity, one that does not demand the commitment of the biblical deity.

      • Andropov

        Quran is full of lies like you. Are you Muslim pretending to be secular?

        • Richard Baranov

          No, he’s a rationalist, you on the other hand are an obscurantist – look it up!

        • YasirDuhham

          I followed your comments, seems like you had not refrained of your sick roots, nagging and denying others their right to comment, you are a total jerk UnderwearPopov or whatsoever

          • Andropov

            What about your stupid Mohammed who is going to award you by virgins? And especially clean ones with no stool? As Quran states. Satan.

    • YasirDuhham

      Why should Muslims find in Quran what tells them to live according to Jesus? He was crucified according to your own belief, do you find this fate an attraction to follow? And if I smack you on your right cheek, will you follow Jesus and allow me to smack you more on the other cheek? You are totally against reason and logic, wake up !

      • Alexsandr

        your ignorance of christianity is breathtaking.

        • YasirDuhham

          In stead of playing the smartass role, tell me the answer: Would you offer me your next cheek if I slap you on one cheek of yours? And do Shakespeare a favor ,omit the (s) from your name ,you hardly know how to type Alex ! I am amazed to the ample stupidity you acquire

          • Alexsandr

            not a christian.

          • YasirDuhham

            Easiest Escape! And I am supposed to believe it ? I still demand a reply since you rushed like an early bird to defend the stupid Christian saying !

          • Fulgentian

            Do you mean ‘turn the other cheek’ as the stupid Christian saying?

          • YasirDuhham

            Not even worth replying to, the honor of debating with me is not yours

          • Alexsandr

            demand away. have you organised a ‘not in may name’ march with french flags flying in your local community yet?

          • YasirDuhham

            Why should I care ? It is a war scene, did any French fellow protest to 70 casualties( families) bombarded on their way out of Mosul fleeing the town? Did any American fellow protest against killing members of two sister families near Tigris river 2 months ago? Did the whole west do any goddamned thing for a war that crippled my country in 2003 for not even one justified reason? First Things Come First, do what you have to do in order that I do my own. You had been aiding Zionists for decades, hundreds of thousands of Palestinians had been severely affected all because of your lowly ethics, do you even relate to Jesus Christ, by any ? The French air force had inflicted massive casualties among civilians while trying to target IS, Just 3 days ago some 20 civilians in my own town were killed while buying dairy products, call it another ” Collateral Damage” like you always do !

          • Alexsandr

            so paris was justified then?

          • YasirDuhham

            Then you are just a “Nobody” ! Without a faith to cling to you are less than an animal, a stray dog ! Consider being a Buddhist in the least, Islam is not happy to add you

          • Alexsandr

            Thanks. Just proves how intolerant and nasty Muslims are. Thanks.

  • smoke me a kipper

    Oh for a time machine to travel back to the time of Abraham’s life and carry out a mercy killing, thus riding the planet of three Abrahamic religions

    • Hegelman

      Well !

      • Andropov

        Nonsense all is nonsense and lack of education. This is what happens when pseudoeducators are spreading their foolishness over the internet. What did you do in elementary school?

  • Hegelman

    To get the West off its high horse on this
    issue, here is a handy article that reminds us how the West itself
    created Islamic extremism in pursuit of its foreign policy goals:

    http://www.salon.com/2015/11/17/we_created_islamic_extremism_those_blaming_islam_for_isis_would_have_supported_osama_bin_laden_in_the_80s/

    • DellerboyNZ

      Christian bombers?
      You ignore the wide gulf between Old and New Testaments.
      As to ISIS, you can’t ignore the attractiveness of religiously sanctioned gang rape.
      Someone will write a study of the psycho-sexual pathology of Islamic terrorism and it will sheet things home wonderfully.
      Oh and salon me no salon.

      • Hegelman

        Denialism about recent history will not help you. That Reagan and Thatcher funded and armed Afghan jehadis who slit the throats of millions is a fact.

        Unluckily for you, Jesus goes out of his way to endorse the Old Testament in every jot and tittle. Like many supposed Christians you have not read the Bible, evidently.

        The New Testament is actually WORSE, far worse than the Old. The New Testament drips with a sinister anti-Semitsm. It is in fact the foundation document of anti-Semitism, deeply influencing, for instance, Hitler.

        • Andropov

          Hageman you need to go mental hospital and get psychiatric treatments. How often do you have nightmares?

        • Fulgentian

          Oh dear.

        • DellerboyNZ

          Jesus was a Jew – get it?
          He knew he had to legitimise his position as the Messiah and acted in accordance with the OT predictions as to what the Messiah would do.
          Jesus didn’t finger the Jews as worthy of of hate. ‘Forgive them Father, for they know not what they do’.

    • Andropov

      you are a complete fool. Your conclusions are nothing but a lie. You deceived yourself and want to deceive everyone else. Ridiculous go back to school and get at least high school education.

      • Richard Baranov

        Hagelman is correct, you are wrong so the fool is not Hagelman. Perhaps you should go back to school and learn your history because you clearly don’t know it.

        • Alexsandr

          I side with andropov. Islam is founded on intolerance and violence. christianity isnt.

          • Richard Baranov

            You mat side with Andropov all you like but it doesn’t make what he said true.

          • Fulgentian

            No it’s not true.

            “Muslims continue to be old fashioned believers of a type Jesus would respect”

            This comment is as incorrect as it is offensive. Jesus said TURN THE OTHER CHEEK not MURDER THE ONE WHO DISAGREES WITH YOU. Such comments show disgusting ignorance and a moral and rational blindness which is quite unbelieveable.

            “giant thinkers like…Marx”
            HELLO?!?! Wake up to the horror and slaughter of those countries which followed Marx’s teaching – the USSR, the Khmer Rouge, North Korea. Again, disgusting blindness to truth.

          • pobjoy

            No single country can possibly follow Marx’ teaching, because Marx specified that global capitalism would have to fail before any communism could take place. That has not happened. Yet, anyway. It is true that there have been ‘revolutions’, but violence is not a novel phenomenon in human history, is it.

          • Fulgentian

            Marx, Engels, whoever. You try telling Lenin his thinking had nothing to do with Marx.

          • pobjoy

            Lenin and Stalin knew very well that Marx specified that global capitalism would have to fail before any communism could take place.They headed off Russians who had overthrown the tyrannical old feudalism, but did not know what to do with their freedom. So they invented a ‘Marxist’ narrative, to deceive the majority; though many of the old inequalities persisted, and very few Russians could have actually believed that all was then fine and dandy. Of course, they now know it, even more keenly. Why anyone continues with this pretence is hard to understand. It seems like a fake stick for the greedy with which to beat Corbynites.

          • Fulgentian

            Yes but going back to the original post, the irony is that while the poster lampoons Christians for doing evil in the name of Jesus, they don’t seem to do the same for evil done in the name of Marx.

          • pobjoy

            But Marx made no bones about it; communism would require violent revolution, just as there were violent revolutions when previous economic paradigms were brought to an end. But Jesus forbade violence of any sort, except that which legitimate civil authority used in the interest of public order. So anyone who acts with pre-meditated violence cannot be a Christian. Hegelman knows this, and, along with many others, including journalists, commits crime by associating violence with Christians. The prisons would be packed, if someone decided to prosecute.

          • Fulgentian

            I don’t think Marx should be held up as some great seculariser whose thoughts on the removal of religion actually benefitted human kind. Clearly they were the motivation for horrific persecution of religious people!

          • pobjoy

            Stalin was a Russian Orthodox who detested Christians. His inspiration was Constantine and Theodosius, not Marx.

          • Fulgentian

            How do you know that?

          • pobjoy

            So you can’t say it is a falsehood.

          • Fulgentian

            So you’re saying you just made an assertion, and your evidence for it is that nobody can prove it’s false? Really?

          • pobjoy

            You cannot associate the USSR with Marx, so you cannot associate the USSR with Marx’ attitude to religion; which, incidentally, was nothing at all to do with his scientific economic analysis.

          • Fulgentian

            1. Of course you can associate the USSR with Marx. Tell me a historian or political theorist who does not associate them. Stalin wrote a book called ‘Marxism and the National Question’ for heaven’s sake!

            2. Marx’s attitude to religion had everything to do with his economic analysis.

            From wikipedia:

            “Marx sees the social function of religion in terms of highlighting/preserving political and economic status quo and inequality.”

          • pobjoy

            Of course you can associate the USSR with Marx.

            You can, if you don’t know what you are talking about.

            Marx’s attitude to religion had everything to do with his economic analysis.

            Marx correctly realised that religions had been used as tools of hegemonies, but that did not justify his personal animosity to religion per se.

          • Fulgentian

            The fact that the USSR was not at all influenced by Marx – is this your own theory or have you read it somewhere?

          • pobjoy

            The fact that the USSR was not at all influenced by Marx

            Everyone is influenced by Marx. But there is not one blade of grass on earth that can be said to be part of a fulfillment of Marxist prediction.

          • Fulgentian

            “Everyone is influenced by Marx.”
            What, even some tribesman in the Amazon?

          • pobjoy

            Ok, not him. You read my posts. Well done.

          • Todd Unctious

            The Russian Orthodox church is Christian.

          • pobjoy

            … and the moon is made of Brie.

          • Todd Unctious

            The Moon is hollow, but not cheese based.

          • Alexsandr

            but wallace and grommet went there and its clearly cheese.

          • pobjoy

            I see. Just goes to show that appearances can be deceptive.

          • YasirDuhham

            القنادر على أشكالها تقع: تعلم العربية يا مغفل لتعرف توصيفك

          • MC

            This stupid argument flies in the face of real world linguistics. Even arabs argue about what the fiction means in arabic, and kill eachother over the disagreements. It has nothing to do with translation.

  • DAVID JENKINS

    Well what a load of gobshhitte

  • Karwan Sahibqran

    Mr Canon you said that‘The trouble is a lack of forgiveness in Islam. I have looked through the Quran trying to find forgiveness… there isn’t any. If you find it, tell me. That’s absolutely wrong, and you asked to tell if any, here are some few of many examples in holly Quran about forgiveness:

    Those who spend (benevolently) in ease as well as in straitness, and those who restrain (their) anger and pardon men; and Allah loves the doers of good (to others). (Surat/ Chapter Al-Aimran, Ayat /versus 134) or 2:134.

    And another surat from Quran: And if you punish [an enemy, O believers], punish with an equivalent of that with which you were harmed. But if you are patient – it is better for those who are patient. (Surat Al-Nahil, Ayat 126) or 14:126.

    Aonther Surat :The good deed and the evil deed cannot be equal. Repel (the evil) with one which is better (i.e. Allâh ordered the faithful believers to be patient at the time of anger, and to excuse those who treat them badly), then verily! he, between whom and you there was enmity, (will become) as though he was a close friend. (Surat fosilat, Ayat 34) or 24:34.

    • WTF

      The issue is not really about how many good or bad parts there might be in the New Testament, Old Testament or the Quran, the issue is about how people implement their religious teachings and what is sanctioned, allowed or encouraged by the governing body (government) and/or religious leaders.

      That is the stark difference between Islam and all other religions.

  • Andropov

    Interesting article and very true

  • Baz

    ISIS just needs exterminating that’s all..!

  • YasirDuhham

    Are you sure you were reading the Quran and not the Torah ?Two locations at least speak contrary to your alleged findings. From Surat Al Jathiyah: “(14) Tell those who believe, to forgive those who do not look forward to the Days of Allah: It is for Him to recompense (for good or ill) each
    People according to what they have earned. “. And from Surat Al-Noor: “And let not those among you who are blessed with graces and wealth swear
    not to give (any sort of help) to their kinsmen, Al-Masakin (the poor),
    and those who left their homes for Allah’s Cause. Let them pardon and
    forgive. Do you not love that Allah should forgive you? And Allah is
    Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful. (22) “.

    • Alexsandr

      think you need to go to http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Quran/023-violence.htm and suss out the violent bits in the koran

      • YasirDuhham

        If you think that the right answer for such hard issues is there in the Internet then I am debating the wrong brains. There are reasons for this text or that to have been revealed, you need to ask and then judge, it is not a catalog of ( Do This & Don’t Do That),and the language is a heavenly composition that is not like any editor’s work. In trying to get to the gist of one issue you need to have full articulation, knowing various parts of the text spread here and there, otherwise you would be ending like the stupid Persians and their twisted understanding of Islam

        • Alexsandr

          or maybe i look at the newsreel of paris and mali and tunisia and see all I need. I’ll stick to athiesm, and have no worries about some imaginary sky fairy telling me what to think. I have worked out all by myself that properly slaughtered and refrigerated pork is quite safe to eat, and bacon butties, pork pies and roast ham is delicious.

          • YasirDuhham

            Islam allows you even to eat a pig’s feces , as long as you keep your religion or atheism, you are totally free

          • Alexsandr

            faces or faeces? buy a dictionary.

          • YasirDuhham

            I know of your language more than you know of it : My IQ is 173, you could never beat me : Now check it here , Dunce : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feces

          • Alexsandr

            But your super IQ hasn’t sussed this is a British site (the .co.uk should have been a clue) but you use an American spelling. Or did you not realise (note not realize) UK and US English have diverged.

          • YasirDuhham

            The more you try your way out the more you insult yourself, with hopeless justifications , how could you mistake (feces) for (faces)? May be you are ( listening) not ( viewing)? Go back to elementary school, I am watching you (B.B)

          • YasirDuhham

            Is UK Faeces different from US Feces ? May be the first has imprints of the Queen While the latter shows the face of G W Bush ? Or may be the first contains undigested Fish’n’Chips, while the latter is a supersized Pancake ? LOL, thank you, you made my day, really, I needed that laughter

          • MC

            I bought bacon and sausages today for breakfast tomorrow.

            Wouldn’t be surprised if a bit of pig face got in the sausages. Love it.

          • Alexsandr

            hope the bacon is dry cure. then it doesnt make that white emulsion in the pan when frying. but finding decent proper dry cure is a nightmare.

          • MC

            not in the UK at the mo, so have to use what I can get. In the UK I treat myself to the expensive stuff; twice the price of Walls, but worth it.

          • Alexsandr

            did you get black pudding?

          • MC

            in the UK, not here.

            BTW. A Saudi friend of mine eats pork in the UK too – he loves his bacon sarnies – but not at the same time as drinking beer.

          • Alexsandr

            greasy food makes beer go flat.

          • ColTPride

            Try microwaving it for two to three minutes. That gets all the brine out (surprising how much there is) and then fry it.

          • YasirDuhham

            Does your wife know of hygiene issues ? I can tell it is NO NO NO

          • Alexsandr

            Hygene issues? eating pork. god you are away with the fairies tonight.

        • MC

          You want to kill Iranians cause they have a different version of your lies? BTW: there’s more than 73 versions of islam now, along with hundreds of versions of Judaism (not 71) and Christianity (not 73). Yet the world didn’t end. Your Mo got it wrong, along with most other things.

          • YasirDuhham

            You, your likes and Iranians, I do not consider you as human beings, you are not worth even a title, your abhor is leaking from your lines, eventually it will kill you and Islam will flourish till you see your daughter pregnant , you know by whom ! Eat your heart sick creature, better make it (WC) in stead of (MC)

          • MC

            So here we go. You’re threatening to kill me now.
            Typical muslim terrorist. I’m not shaken.

          • Alexsandr

            true colours now. nasty violent intolerant islam. And you wonder why people consider islam a curse.

          • MC

            I support the Kenny Everett view on dealing with them: round them all up in a big field and ….

    • pobjoy

      Do you not love that Allah should forgive you?

      On what basis can Allah forgive?

      • YasirDuhham

        He is God Himself , you call Him God, Kurds call Him Khuda, Muslims call Him Allah, just like Jews say (Elohim= My God) . He is the only one to forgive our sins since He is the one who created us, and here He is urging us to forgive sinners whenever possible, comparing our eagerness to get his forgiveness of our own sins to that which sinners expect from us . In Islam it is all left to the creator, no apostle or messenger or prophet has any right to forgive or redeem.

        • pobjoy

          On what basis can God Himself forgive?

          On what basis do Muslims think that there is anything to be forgiven?

        • MC

          The is the opposite to what you claimed in response to earlier posts. Typical nut job. Spinning the lies of translation.
          Your allah is a fiction. Get over it.

          • YasirDuhham

            You still are a major loser, I feel sorry for you

          • Alexsandr

            Why not forget all this islam stuff and read some physics. einstein and e-mc2 explain a lot. even newton and f=ma. look at geology and how that explains how incredibly old the world is, and the amazing variety of life that has existed on our planet preserved in fossils. or just go in your garden and start to count the species there. science will tell you so much more than some ancient texts.

          • YasirDuhham

            This part of knowledge is there, no one even discourages you from. It is about your own life and how you want to lead it, the part about The Divine is up to you and how you envision it, may be you mistook me for a camel rider ?I already am a Mechanical engineer,and retired colonel. They bowed in front m=of me in 1983, there in RAC Center-Bovington Camp, you have no idea, apparently

          • Alexsandr

            its beyond me why a man of science should believe in the supenatural. science killed my childhood Christianity stone dead.

          • MC

            A girl like you should know better.
            Actually, I have some friends in the Saudi Army. When in the UK they drink til they’re pissed and joke about the stupid muslims ‘back home’. The Saudi army generals talk the talk with islam in public, but actually don’t do it in the privacy of home.

          • YasirDuhham

            So they use your wife in return for the money you get ! Hmmm, you are a real businessman

          • MC

            which wife is that? Did I get so drunk shagging muslims that I got married to one of them?

          • Alexsandr

            do they take the burqua off first?

          • MC

            if you’d have been in the ladies shops in Saudi, you’d know they sell all sorts of lingerie and toys. Saudi men can’t go in, but being white I can get in; doors open when the mutawa aren’t around. Next time you see a woman in a burqa, imagine that she has nothing but racy stuff underneath: often it is the case. 😉

          • MC

            I don’t care what you think: you believe fairies live on your shoulder and you follow the fiction written by a pedo and his crew.

          • Alexsandr

            think? blind following of a medieval text isnt thinking.

          • MC

            Agreed. i should edit a replace with something else, but can’t think of what is suitable.

            Interesting that in the Middle East they value the low order thinking skills on Blooms Taxonomy, and hate the apex skills.

          • YasirDuhham

            Dumb & Dumber, the real thing here, Alexie teaching WC, LOL, what a pair of rotten shoes

          • MC

            rotten shoes? I’m sure it must be a mistranslated, but perhaps she’s totally lost the plot.

            OK. Time for bed. It’s been brilliant laughing at stupid the muslim girl. Not stupid because she’s muslim, but stupid because of what she believes: oh, maybe the same thing.

      • YasirDuhham

        Pobjoy you had been repeating this query quite lately although I am responding to you every once of them. Do you mean that Allah is not your God Himself, say like too many stupid marines were inquiring here, mistaking Allah for a local idol ? The creator is the only one who is to judge us, hold us responsible for whatever we do during our lives. Here , He is offering a motive, the much you desire your sins to be forgiven by Allah on Judgement Day, the much any other guy who had done you wrong is wishing you to forgive him and spare him any strict judgement like an eye for an eye > i hope this answers your question

        • pobjoy

          The creator is the only one who is to judge us

          If we assume existence of a creator, why would that creator judge?

          • YasirDuhham

            I see now. It is a whole lot. He created us, we tend to rob, hurt, kill, exploit, envy,occupy, do others wrong…etc, so the game goes like this: After death there is another realm in which every act is weighed and its doer is held accountable for since he had the free will but chose to do others bad( or good alternately),this is what makes us think more than twice before we sin( provided that we are warned and acknowledged of it all). Still ,some would favor not abiding by the rules ,and this is what makes rewarding a must, and punishment a must too. If the creator does not judge , I would be killing whoever I wish to, even for the slightest misunderstanding or grudge , I would rob any guy as long as I feel safe and untouchable. It is a challenge between the creator and Satan, that human kind would all follow the temptations of Satan, we are the chess pieces of this bet, but with a free will to move and act .

          • pobjoy

            If the creator does not judge , I would be killing whoever I wish to

            Why would a creator think that worthy of judgment?

          • YasirDuhham

            According to the Creator ( as Quran states): ” Taking one innocent life for no justified cause is equal to killing all human beings, Likewise, saving one life is like saving all humanity” . You see , for any one of us, life as a whole bliss( life of all creatures) is reduced to his own life, it is the bliss that he treasures most, so there should be a great emphasis on its value.

          • pobjoy

            According to the Creator ( as Quran states)

            … assuming that there is a creator. But on what basis does the Qur’an assert that a creator thinks that killing is worthy of judgment? Or to put it another way, how does the Qur’an know that a creator is moral?

          • YasirDuhham

            Here we go: It is the creator’s will to spread live ( the title CREATOR implies it), Quran “does not know”, it is not a creature, it is rather a manuscript of what the creator wants to acknowledge us of. It is not necessarily a “moral” theme here, because death is a fate for all creation except the Creator Himself, it is that each life should be allowed to expire naturally, dying of one reason but never because one man opted to terminate it for his own favoring.

          • pobjoy

            it is rather a manuscript of what the creator wants to acknowledge us of

            But if there is a creator, he/she/it is completely unseen or detected by human senses or machines. So if a creator or any other supernal agent wants us to know that life is to be lived with a sense of ‘right’ and ‘wrong’, that agent must communicate that message in a way that convinces humanity of the truth of that message. That message is not proved by sending a supernal messenger to dictate that opinion to a single, ordinary human being, especially one who is illiterate, and who has no proof of ever meeting that messenger. The supernal messenger himself could do so, but would have to provide evidence of supernality, and would have to do so in public, before many witnesses.

            So if Islam knows that morality exists, that wrongdoing needs to be forgiven, it must do so by means other than the Qur’an and the natural world.

          • YasirDuhham

            Life (of a single creature, eventually lives of all creation in general) is a bliss bestowed by the creator on its carrier for a reason, that every single creature has a plan and cause for its presence in this life or world, and nothing is created randomly or in a haphazard style, down to the tiniest fruit or seed( so Quran states), thus it is not up for the individual to decide on terminating that life ( i.e, when comitting suicide), nor it is up to any other creature to terminate other peoples lives, not according to his wish or own judgement. The idea is preserving life as much as can be as is understood. I found in a later comment from your side that you are splitting Quran from the creator, as if two entities, which is not how we understand it to be. It is understood in Islam that Quran is the word of God, a message relayed to human beings to lead them how to lead their lives, We will come to this when replying your next comment which is almost covered here . This issue had been a source of great conflict during Al Ma’moon Caliphate ( second son and heir of Haroon Alrasheed), that some clerics or scholars considered Quran as if God’s Talk, i.e, that God “Talks” for real, as if a human being.

          • YasirDuhham

            You can never accept a statement like ( Your car was not made by any, it just formed by mere chance), but you feel harassed to hear me saying that someone is behind all this terrific creation and solar system, the way your eyes see and your brain thinks ! I could never figure how one can deny a creator behind it all

          • pobjoy

            If we assume existence of a creator, why would that creator judge?

    • MC

      Always one psychotic nut case following ancient myths thinks they have the upper hand through misrepresenting what the article said.
      Your allah is a fiction. Mo was a pedo. End of.

    • MC

      Islamic scriptures muslims don’t want liberals to know about:

      OK to kill people for not converting (Surah 9:5).
      OK to throw gay men from towers (Surah 7:80-84).
      OK to cut the genitals of young girls (Ahmad Ibn Hanbal 5:75; Abu
      Dawud, Adab 167).

      A beautiful set of scriptures you like to follow. And you wonder why real liberals call islam a cancer.

      • YasirDuhham

        1. This one is about (Mushrikeen),i,e idolators who started oppressing Islam when an infant in Mecca, most of them were relatives of the Prophet himself, what is your connection to them? Are you living in that past? why do you wedge yourself where it is not your place? Are you the devil’s attorney?
        2.You are totally wrong here. It speaks of Lut and his gay folks, it does not include any hallucination that you are reflecting, I told you that you are a stupid Jackass! I am adding something for you in advance: ll that Quran says about gay couples is ( Hurt them, separate them until God allows a way out. In those times all humanity was against this tendency,
        3. Ahmad Bin Hanbal is a scholar( out of five such interpreters of fine details and rennovated conflicts by then) speaking of his own vision. He is not Mohammad nor he is Gabriel. I do not follow his school, but FGM is done by Kurds, Sudanese, Egyptians,..etc. It is a socially related habit that has no origins in Islam, all that had been relayed to us is that Prophet Mohammad ordered the old lady doing it by then and out there to spare it( not fully remove it) cause it is needed for arousal, you lose once again. I suggest you soak your head in mud, a cure for stupids like you.

        • MC

          You say I’m wrong and then go on to agree with the thrust of the statements. Your mates in IS disagree, BTW. 40 days have passed and now it’s time to kill, according to them. Sadly a million muslims in the UK support the IS interpretation.

          • YasirDuhham

            This is a technique to let you “lubricate” yourself by yourself, it eases things for the guys around you

          • MC

            What is a technique? It’s OK, though. I don’t need help when I buggering my Saudi friend and joking about the muslims ‘back home’. Being bi-sexual is great, and your god has allowed me to take money from muslims for the last 25 years whilst working in the middle east, and whilst there I’m shagging loads of muslims – men and women.

          • YasirDuhham

            IS will give you a rectal attack in stead of heart attack for the massive fear you are experiencing, you will die of constipation dude (LOL),

          • Andropov

            This exactly proves who you are Arafat. You are possessed by Satan just like your Mohammed.

          • YasirDuhham

            You are an Islamophobic guy ! Just tell me, how many times do you curse Satan each day? I curse him in every move of my five daily prayers, that is 17 times in the least ! And you are cursing IS & Satan, but the Yezidis whom IS targeted pray to and worship Satan ! How would you resolve this paradox? You can’t be an enemy to the enemy of your enemy, otherwise they both would be cursing and targeting you, Analyze This !

          • Andropov

            No Islamophobia just plain facts. Islam is a lie. You are deceived people. You were supposed to be Christianized before Europeans. But you were deceived by Mohammed who heard voices of Satan and who introduced himself to him as Gabriel. Look what you said: “You can’t be an enemy to the enemy of your enemy, otherwise they both would be cursing and targeting you, Analyze This !” Typical Satanic deceit. God speaks clearly, no twist no human speculations plain and straight truth. And the truth is that Jesus is the Salvation for Jews, Arabs and all people, Mohammed is a false prophet, son of Satan.

          • YasirDuhham

            This is all about just what Jesus Christ had been framed for ! You are copying and pasting once again

          • Andropov

            No copy at all. Get that crazy book called Quran out of your head and you will be set free. FREEDOM from lies is the best. I pray that you’ll receive the Holy Spirit that will help you to see clearly and will show you that Jesus Christ is the Lord and Messiah. I am sorry for any name calling. Note how Book of Mormons is similar to Quran two false prophets in a different time period. It was not Angel Gabriel it was Satan mocking his appearance.Good luck and God bless you.

          • YasirDuhham

            Bless you too , we’d better respect each other’s faith since each of us is very sure of his own faith, life is about diversity my friend, not mono colors

        • Alexsandr

          do you actually believe this stuff or are you posting this stuff for a bet. or are you speccy staff being agent provacateur to make comment more lively.

          • MC

            She says the quotes are misrepresented, and then contradicts herself: on FGM, as she says, Mo was in favour of cutting the genitals of little girls, but suggests he only meant to cut a little bit of the genitals so that’s someone OK.

          • Alexsandr

            i am losing the will to live with this cr@p

          • MC

            I have nothing else to do for a little while. Quite enjoying it now she’s losing her rag.

          • YasirDuhham

            Alexie, tell this Zumal ( Jackass in Arabic) that I am a HE, not SHE, he might even be blind as well as a moron,not seeing my image!

          • Alexsandr

            have you worked out who alexsandr is yet. i borrowed his name. simples.

          • YasirDuhham

            You are taking it personally ! When you are screwed, it doesn’t mean a thing what your name refers to or borrowed from, I mistook you for at least a semi- clever guy ! Do I give a damn about you and your people?

          • MC

            You seem to give a damn because you’re taking a lot of your time writing to two kaffirs who are tearing you apart, intellectually.

          • Alexsandr

            then why have you wasted half a day writing b0110cks on a british right of centre blog?

          • Andropov

            Yasir Arafat you speak like angry terrorist.

          • Andropov

            Jasir Zumal Arafat

          • YasirDuhham

            Copy & paste kid, I told you so

          • YasirDuhham

            Is it SHE? Man, you need a brain transplant ! But you don’t even have a brain , how are we going to help you? Better equip your skull with a donkey brain, too cheap, too available, and upgrades your thinking powers

          • YasirDuhham

            Not any of it. Where I live people think that if they migrate or seek asylum in your countries they will meet nice people. I am doing what it takes to show them that what awaits them out there is no more than jackasses like (WC) who calls himself (MC), nothing personal with you

          • MC

            Well, I do thank you for that. Despite your stupid ideas, keeping the idiots like you out of Europe is to be congratulated.

          • YasirDuhham

            My image had been shot in a place called ( Kussummak)!

    • Andropov

      You can’t mistake beautifully written Torah with primitive Mohammed spiting of snots in Quran. Allah is merciful? We just saw it in Paris. Mohammed inspired by Satan contradicts himself every time he opens his mouth. and you too. There is no Mercy in Quran – all Satanic lies. Get rid of it. Get out of it you poor soul. Don’t be deceived by Satan and his prophet Mohammed. Listen to prophets in Torah those are the true ones. Mohammed is a prophet of Satan bringing death on you and all those who believe in him.

  • Alexsandr
    • Fulgentian

      Brilliant.

  • Fulgentian

    It is a common theme in the demise of cultures and societies that they are destroyed through bitter in-fighting and a blindness to the real enemy, so overcome are they by hatred for their own petty rivals. It is sad to see this happening today in those people who pathetically try to state that Christianity is as bad if not worse than Islam. It clearly isn’t; by stating this such people simply show their petty emnity towards Christianity and a complete lack of regard for the clear truth and the clear threat to our society and culture. I know this post will not change such people’s minds; it’s simply an attempt at level-headed observation.

    • PhilJ2011

      The rabid dog that once passed for Christianity had its teeth removed a long time ago. Working in the US persuaded me that if you scratch the surface of Christianity then the same rabid fanaticism will bubble through. You think burning at the stake has ended? There are plenty of people who ‘love Jesus’ that would do so if the law allowed. The dog had its teeth removed but that does not alter the myriad of interpretations they have for what god is asking them. When you see and hear expressions like: ‘I was speaking with Jesus’, ‘I told Jesus….’, ‘Jesus told me…’ on a daily basis on TV then you tend to get careful about the things you say.

      Islam and Christianity have the same roots. I guess you could say they came apart after Deuteronomy. Cant say I see much in either to recommend them.

      In nature it the brightly coloured animals to avoid. With humans its those that say ‘God says….’.

      • Fulgentian

        You have illustrated my point beautifully.

      • David Hopkins

        When it comes to ‘religion’ one must learn to differentiate between good and bad, and true and false. Generalizations are misleading and wrong. For example, killing someone is wrong it’s murder. In general terms then, one might say that any man that has killed another is a murderer. Just as ‘all Muslims are terrorists’ and all Christians are ‘rabid fanaticists’. However, what about soldiers fighting a war or an uprising? Or a police officer that kills an offender resisting arrest? Are they murderers too? Some times it’s difficult to see the wood for the trees.

        • PhilJ2011

          I was not generalising. BOTH religions allow for the killing of others in god’s name. The fact that the majority do not does not preclude their assumed authority from god. I believe there was a church in Portsmouth where soldiers leaving for the front would attend a service. One of the ten commandments on the wall had been changed from ‘You will not kill’ to ‘You will not murder’. That presumably meant that killing people in battle was not murder.

          Christianity absolutely is full of moral contradictions. At least Islam makes no apology for their slaughter.

          • Fulgentian

            “Christianity absolutely is full of moral contradictions.”
            Like what?

          • YasirDuhham

            Christianity failed to prove itself as a monotheism or a religion of humanity, the worst that humanity had ever received came from Christian belief. Whatever Muslims do to Christians is less than they deserve

          • Andropov

            Listen Arafat here you go again ballistic about Christianity praising your Satanic verses. Why don’t you just shut up and stop spreading your lies.

          • YasirDuhham

            Do I sound like Natanyahooooooo ? Never thought of that: I’d better take a shower

      • WTF

        Whatever radical Christians or Muslims may think, there’s a very big difference in what is allowed. Sharia Law is totally alien to the west and no matter how radical a few Christians maybe, the laws and culture of Christianity holds it in check. Unfortunately Islam is a culture, a religion and law (governance) all rolled into one and there lies the problem. Religion controls ALL aspects of Muslim life.

        • Alexsandr

          its funny. in the west we have proper toilets, soap and running water. we dont need some 7th century warlord to tell us how to defecate.

          we have proper slaughtering procedures, refrigeration and oven thermometers. so pork is quite safe to eat. again we dont need someone to tell us its unclean.

          • WTF

            In all my travels around the world previously on business, I have only ever had one serious case of food poisoning and that wasn’t in a western or far eastern country and it certainly wasn’t pork as it was banned there (and it wasn’t Israel). I was laid up in the hotel for 4 days before it was safe for me to catch a flight home.

            That seems to back your post 110% over food preparation or storage !

  • Monica Jones

    I think we have to look at what people actually DO. As with Christianity, every faith community in Islam is different. (And ISIL, in the eyes of nearly all Muslims, are certainly not Islamic.) I have been told that Prophet Mohamed explicitly said (Hadith, not
    Quran) that revenge is permitted in Islam – but that God really loves
    those who can find it in themselves to FORGIVE a wrong done to them.

    My own friends, in-laws and fellow-teachers in Egypt are all generous, compassionate – and forgiving – people, for whom patience and forbearance are the norm.

    Now Western and Russian bombers are pounding ISIL positions – slaughtering terrified innocent civilians trapped underneath, who are suffering from ISIL more than anyone. They do it in the name of avenging the atrocities in Paris.

    Time for forgiveness, anyone?

    • Alexsandr

      Not everyone in Germany in 1945 was a n@zi. but to defeat them it was
      necessary to be very brutal, and many people were killed, and many of
      them were not n@zis. such is war.

      sorry about n@zi. stupid automod. grow up speccy.

      • Todd Unctious

        No. It was necessary to occupy every town and city in their land. Not kill them , just police and control them. Germany returned to civilisation within a decade.

        • Alexsandr

          they were offered chances for unconditional surrender. until hitler killed himself, they were refused.

    • YasirDuhham

      The crimes of the west never cease to recur , whether in the name of Christ , capitalism, democracy or anti-terror campaigns, in fact the Europeans and Americans are the real terrorists

  • GeorgieBowlocks

    The vicar of Baghdad? Sounds as likely as the Mullah of Bray…..

    • YasirDuhham

      Or perhaps ( The Thief of Baghdad) -LOL< as if Baghdad is a town in Italy ! And it turned out that he had been searching for clues in the Torah, mistaking it for Quran, eventually agitating all this fuzz here for a stupid observation !

      • YasirDuhham

        The Jackass of The County, The Marquise De Sad, LOL, such a funny and silly title

        • MC

          You mean Marquis de Sade. Have you read the books? Probably not. I’ve read three versions of the Koran. Makes de Sade’s sexual fantasy seem pleasant; de Sade’s books is acknowledged as a fantasy by de Sade, about time the Koran was acknowledged as fiction too.

          • YasirDuhham

            I don’t give a damn about his name or what his fantasies rate to, just another pimp like you, I was mimicking the title of (The Vicar of Baghdad) using alternate titles, you ,as usual, did not understand it, eat more peanuts, it can boost your thinking and analysis

          • MC

            You used him as an example. Whilst I realize your joke book is full of contradictions, do try and have some consistency in your arguments.

          • YasirDuhham

            Consult Fulgenitals or Fulgentian, he is a match to you (LOL)

          • Alexsandr

            I would say being a vicar in baghdad would take a lot of courage.

          • YasirDuhham

            He is in UK, Jackass ! Not one vicar can live in Baghdad

          • MC

            Did you read the article? Canon White lived in Iraq for many years. Unlike your allah, Canon White is real.

          • Alexsandr
          • Andropov

            And they do, they still do because your Satanic power is at the end. You will be destroyed.

          • YasirDuhham

            And for the kind of life you are wedged in, nobody thinks of killing you, you already are out of life, you are soaking in hatred, and it is the best punishment for you to make it to a hundred

          • MC

            I disagree, m’lady. I have no hatred, but I support free speech and the rights of all people, believers and non-believers, to not be victimized by the lies of a bunch of crazies like you.

    • YasirDuhham

      The Molester of Baghdad, sounds interesting ,considering what a Vicar is always up to

  • Avanti

    @ PhilJ2011 >Christianity is as bad as Islam right at this present time and that is what concerns us now, not 800 years ago Crusaders, nor the recently negation of the power of the Caholic Church, especially in Eire to cover up child abuse, use unmarried Mothers as slaves & etc. Put the old testamentt to one side as jesus was rebelling against much of that thinking.This big difference is that Judaism is elistist, its tries to keep out those not descended from the 12 tribes, the oppositte of so many verses and history written in the Koran & Hadiths instructing Muslims to murder all who will not submit to Mohameds visions. There are over a hundred verses urging that naked fascist ambition, including some gratutious sadism such as cutting off the Kuffars fingertips, apart from beheading the men, enslaving their families and the right to rape slaves. The ideas of Islams moral codes and behaviour are not just 7th century, they go back to Abraham’s time 4000 years back, when slave owing was ok, after all the slaves were not “God’s chosen people”, were they? The teaching of Jesus are the oppositte of the teaching relating to forcing Kuffars to Islam,(the meaning is submisssion), or executing maybe with some torture in the process. Jesus taught in the parable of the good Samaritan, you are good or not according to your deeds, irrespective of your faith. He taught turn the other cheek, not force anyone to any dogma of faith.
    In practise Christain clergy in the UK are not giving approval to any equivalent of Jihad to forcibly recruit or convet Christians, but at the time of 9/11 half of the Imans at Mosques in the UK were doing just that, (as they had been appointed by bullying extremists, not representing the wishes of the majority of Muslims). The weak point in Islam is the guidance on wiping out all that disbeleive that it is the best true and only faith that must be embraced 100%. However many counter quotes can be made, that just shows why we should not be following such a ramblimg set of contradictions that can easliy be used by evil fascists if they want recruits to help them to power.

  • YasirDuhham

    And the Oscar (of the top stupid commentators) goes to MC & Alexsandr, they may split it , share it, or use it for a brain damage surgery, nice knowing you jerks

    • MC

      Don’t leave now. You’re comments have been so illuminating; especially the ones in which you said you wanted to kill me and all Iranians, and when you confirmed your Mo supported FGM, then that’s important information people in the UK need to know..

      • Fulgentian

        Aleksandr and MC have done a sterling job in showing a rational critique of what Yasir has been saying. But you must remember that for Salafis (including ISIS), Kalaam, or rational critique, is utterly forbidden, because Allah hates it when people think for themselves.

        • Alexsandr

          you are too kind, sir.

        • YasirDuhham

          Give him half a pound, please !

    • Andropov

      Arafat, you are calling yourself those names, Satan.

  • ET angel

    ‘Say: O my slaves who have been prodigal to their own hurt! Despair not of the mercy of Allah, Who forgiveth all sins. Lo! He is the Forgiving, the Merciful.’ – Quran, 39:53

    ”I have looked through the Quran trying to find forgiveness… there isn’t any. If you find it, tell me.” – Canon White

    Well, there you go Canon White…

    • Mr Grumpy

      In the context I guess what we’re looking for is a positive commandment of forgiveness that does not exclude kuffir from its scope. Whereas…

      Allah will not forgive those who are kafir and do wrong or guide them on any path, (Surat An-Nisa, 168)

    • Tqwt

      Read the next three sentences.

      • johnhenry

        Well, I’ve got a couple of them there Queeron pulp fiction books banging about the house in case I ever run out of bumwipe; but please spare me the trouble of rooting in the bowels of my basement to find them and quote “the next three sentences”. This should be interesting.

        • Tqwt

          39:54 Turn unto your Lord repentant, and surrender unto Him, before there come unto you the doom, when ye cannot be helped.
          39:55 And follow the better (guidance) of that which is revealed unto you from your Lord, before the doom cometh on you suddenly when ye know not,
          39:56 Lest any soul should say: Alas, my grief that I was unmindful of Allah, and I was indeed among the scoffers!

          Allah forgives all sins, apart from not actually following Muhammed’s commands to the letter. If you don’t, then it is all is all doom and hellfire.

    • YasirDuhham

      He is a crook, I provided 2 other texts, he is in for defaming, the ugly Vicar and his gang here of pathetic Christians

      • Andropov

        Wright your brothers from ISIS just killed innocent people in Paris and you are going to point your finger at those you attacked, children and innocent people in the name of your Mohammed? Aren’t you ashamed Yasir Arafat?

  • pobjoy

    On what basis can a deity forgive?

    On what basis do Muslims think that there is anything to be forgiven?

    • YasirDuhham

      It is not like Christianity where you confess it to your priest and just that. If you do others wrong, or do yourself wrong, or do not abide by what your creator had warned you not to do then you are sinning. If you repent, mend the harm that you had inflicted on others, and make a vow not to repeat it again,then you are entitled for forgiveness by God. There is no trashy thing like confessing to a priest, nothing like a helpless man who had been crucified two thousands years ago is to redeem you or help you escape punishment, neither him nor his mother

      • pobjoy

        It is not like Christianity where you confess it to your priest

        Christians don’t have priests. You know that. You are terrified of Jesus, and his demands on your life, because he died to pay for the evils you have done. You know you owe him your allegiance, but you are too proud, selfish and scared of others to repay him with your allegiance.

        Convert, Yasir, and if Muslims murder you, you will have great reward.

      • Andropov

        Lies, nothing but lies. You know enough about Christianity just to screw everything up. But your real knowledge is just bluffing.

  • johnhenry

    Nice to know that every Vicar has a red-lining.

  • d.j.m.

    “The Vicar of Baghdad”,are you having a laugh.

    • MC

      He’s a vicar and worked in Baghdad. Both true.

      Perhaps you could explain.

  • huwwuh

    Like Welby he is an unconverted blind guide.

  • The Baz

    Why is he called the vicar of Baghdad when he lives in Liphook?

    Does he preach online, or what?

    I won’t accept the answer…. He is retired…..as retired equal loss of “title”.

    • YasirDuhham

      It helps him spread the lies much easier, is there any Vicar or priest that can walk the streets of Baghdad, since 2010 in the least ?

  • The Baz

    Religion is a figment of our imagination.

  • LG

    Why don’t Muslims produce great thinkers like Hume, Voltaire, Rousseau, Locke, Dawkins, etc? Or are they all hacked to death as soon as they dare to speak up?

    • YasirDuhham

      Do you have any idea of Al Jahidh? Ibn Arabi, Bin Sina, Jalauddeen Rumi, Hafiz, Alkhayyam, ? Dr. Mohammad Imara lately ?Do you have any idea of what oriental means in contrast with your world? It is the environment and the realm around them that shapes the ideas and urges the thinkers to come out with solutions, alternatives or else, otherwise there would have been a Rousseau in China, or South Africa may be, if we accept your inquiry as it is ? These thinkers are a continuation of Greek & Latin philosophy heritage, and to expect similar trends in alternate environments is not your best shot.

      • pobjoy

        They are not ‘thinkers’. They are juveniles, pretending to be grown up. Those who take the Qur’an seriously would not realise that.

        • YasirDuhham

          I was referring to Rousseau and the guys you mentioned

          • pobjoy

            The only guy LG mentioned who is like Muslims is the juvenile delinquent Dawkins (who does not much like Islam!). If you can find a thought of a Muslim who made a sensible contribution to thought, mention it. Even if it is wrong, as most of Rousseau’s ideas were wrong.

          • LG

            The thinkers I mentioned (with the exception of Dawkins) were atheists in a time of aggressive Christian religion. They had the bravery and independence of mind to challenge accepted theologies and ideologies. Where are the thinkers from the muslim world who dare to do so? Certainly not the ones Yasir mentions, who are all mainstream muslims and do not challenge Islam itself. No doubt for fear of the head choppers.
            Dawkins is a great secular author and lucid thinker. Who are you? A meaningless nobody.

          • YasirDuhham

            There were free thinkers who dared to contradict the prevailing vision of Islam in their times. They paid for it of course. Al Hallaj was one. His ideas were nearest to blasphemy. Another one is Ghailan Al Dimashqi & his peer Al Ji’d Bin Dirham, these two free thinkers did not oppose Islam itself, they did what is the best: standing against the Umayyad twisted vision where a Sultan or Caliph is free to do whatsoever. They both faced a horrible punishment. Keep in mind that Islam itself does not offend Muslims, it is the derivative that clerics deliberately deduce to satisfy their lust and their governors, thus, what we consider as free thinking is opposing the greedy and wrongful governor. This had always been the case

          • LG

            I’m not sure I could have made myself clearer than your answer displays. Any muslim thinking for themself faces ‘a horrible punishment.’
            Like I said, go get yourselves an Enlightenment.

          • YasirDuhham

            It is that the two main dynasties that seized power ( one after another), namely Umayyads & Abbasids had inflicted great changes to Islam compared to the “naive” or fresh image of Islam before those two dynasties took hold of power and made it a hierarchy thing where that tribe is the only one ruling over Islamic world. They used to execute blasphemous people ,mostly from oriental origins. This arranged for all thinkers, clerics, scholars and poets to praise the Caliph and his princes rather than criticize or oppose. Till this date this is what is available, no one dares to criticize or question why, the need for enlightenment like you said

          • BC

            Meaningless bullshit.

          • pobjoy

            The thinkers I mentioned (with the exception of Dawkins) were atheists in a time of aggressive Christian religion.

            Take your cowardly lies out of here.

          • LG

            Perhaps until Darwin, even great thinkers could have been excused for using religion to fill the gaps in their understanding. Even Darwin might struggle to see how the first life could form, as the electron microscope hadn’t yet been invented. But now, we don’t need sky fairies breathing life into things.

          • pobjoy

            Dementia calls.

          • LG

            Insults are what people use to replace reason.

          • pobjoy

            There’s no insult.

          • LG

            Sorry, I had assumed you were insultingly referring to me. You were referring to yourself. Nasty affliction, as Dave Allen used to say, “Go with your God”.

          • pobjoy

            Insults are what people use to replace reason.

          • YasirDuhham

            Do you know of Ibn Rushd, and his effect on almost all those icons?

          • pobjoy

            How does Qur’anic teaching affect the use of icons?

          • YasirDuhham

            If you were asking about it as I am understanding it, that is: How does Quranic teaching affects those free thinkers who followed Ibn Rushd and made use of his findings, it is about Wisdom, whatever wise saying or teaching is welcomed in Islam since the prophet is known to have said that wisdom is the prey of every believer. In Quran it is said that God engifts some people with wisdom ,and those who had been gifted with wisdom had in fact been granted a great amount of goodness.

          • pobjoy

            What do you think was wise about Qur’anic teachings about icons?

          • YasirDuhham

            The deeds that any Muslim is to follow and maintain come within Quran as follows : Strict orders pronounced by the Deity Himself , like : Do not share another idol with Allah, Do your parents good and never argue with them or show a sign of complaint,Keep your daily rituals of prayers, Fast the month of Ramadhan and do a pilgrimage in case you can afford it, Never exploit an orphan, Do not fornicate,…etc. The other form is about what all those prophets had been through and what it teaches us, Lut, Job, Noah, David, Solomon, Moses, Jesus Christ, John, Jonah, Hud, Salih, Shu’aib, Abraham , Isaac, Jacob, Joseph,..etc. The third form is about wisdom relayed to us through the teachings of Luqman to his son( a set of advices about good ethics ) and a few men whose statements within a context had been preserved for us to contemplate( people who resisted the Pharaoh and other savage dictators ).

          • pobjoy

            Do not share another idol with Allah

            Does that not sound like Exodus 20:5?

            Do your parents good

            Exodus 20:12?

            Fast the month of Ramadhan

            Has this teaching been taken up by philosophers?

            How do Islamic teachings contribute originality to philosophy, taught what was not already taught? Hume, Voltaire, Rousseau, Locke were generally anti-clerical (a characteristic not in sympathy with your own papism), were not atheists, and influenced modern Western society to a greater or lesser degree. They flourished because Christianity (known euphemistically as Protestantism) permitted them to do so, along with scientists, engineers, artists and many more. But sharia has produced little of the same. Muslims come to Western countries to get the benefits of what they have not produced, by intelligence or by hard work.

          • YasirDuhham

            I have no idea what those parts of Exodus say but I will Google them . Quran does not say that these “commandments” are first born and conceived to Muslims as a hit. When ordering us to fast it says ” Fasting has been relayed to you same as it had been for nations that proceeded you “, Islam is a continuation of the early scriptures but to a customized form since both location and date are different from those of Judaism and Christianity. In fact, most of the tales told in Quran is about Israelis, Moses and his followers. As for the second part, I told you about Ibn Rushd( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Averroes ) I did not mean Quran itself but a Muslim scholar whose ideas affected too many philosophers and free thinkers. The prevailing trend in Islamic world is to refrain from philosophy , and Ibn Rushd ( or Averroes) fought to do this bridging, but eventually dogma prevailed, needless to say why

          • pobjoy

            I have no idea what those parts of Exodus say but I will Google them .

            Let me know when you have.

            When ordering us to fast it says ” Fasting has been relayed to you

            When did this relaying take place?

            Islam is a continuation of the early scriptures

            Like the works of the popes you say are imaginary. Like the Book of Mormon. It’s a bandwagon.

            In fact, most of the tales told in Quran is about Israelis, Moses and his followers.

            So why did Allah take around two thousand years after Moses was dead to explain his role?

            (I hope you mean ‘Israelites’, btw.)

            I did not mean Quran itself but a Muslim scholar

            A scholar who happened to be a Muslim. This does not demonstrate that Islam made a contribution to philosophy.

          • YasirDuhham

            I replied to that in details last night, why I can’t see it here? Please confirm: Did you receive the answers for each point?

          • pobjoy

            I replied to that in details last night, why I can’t see it here?

            Perhaps you did not click to send?

            Did you receive the answers for each point?

            No. I have seen no answers.

          • YasirDuhham

            I clicked it, it said it awaits approval or stuff like that. Anyway, I am doing it again, right in-situ

          • YasirDuhham

            I Googled them both, I must say that it came much shocking to me because I thought at first that it is one of the identical parts between Quran and the New Testament ( Or old, not sure), stuff like the analogy of the eye of the needle ,or the idea of offering alms using one hand but hot allowing the other to know of it. Anyway, in Quran we are requested ( as an order, not an advice) yo treat our parents right not for longevity or well being, it is because they deserve to be thanked by action not only words or tributes. And the idea that God is jealous is never accepted by Islam, there is no way of comparing the Deity to a human being with all his embedded fallacies and shortcomings. Ramadhan fasting was started in the 2nd year after Hejira ( moving from Mecca to Medina ). Islam is a continuation of Judaism, Christianity and any other right religion that not even Mohammad had been acknowledged of( as Quran states), Mohammad had said it that he is much like a man who saw a wall missing a brick, and he added that missing brick (Hadith). I apologize for following the auto correction, a red line appeared under (Israelites) once I typed it so I agreed with the only option given although I know the difference between both. I don’t see it as God took 2000 years to tell us those stories because Quran says ( This Quran tells the Jews most of what they are divided around), that is because their rabbis changed a lot, hid some and added what they needed to replace God, thus Quran is challenging Jews to bring what they have in their Torah and compare it for certain issues like the cow they did not like to slaughter, Moses trip with Joshua and the 3 scenes of it , the cave sleepers and their number,..etc. As for the last point I agree with you but it robs USA or any other country of any credit too in case an Indian citizen discovers or invent something, it is his own yield and achievement. If a Jew or a Christian citizen in oldtimes Andalusia scored some achievement, do you attribute it to him alone or the facilities provided for him ? I am not after linking it to Islam or any religion, just asking about the intellectual properties rights of those times. When I brought such examples it was to respond for another commentator who was accusing Islam of not patronizing science or other life necessities, as if Quran is against science.

          • pobjoy

            I thought at first that it is one of the identical parts between Quran and the New Testament ( Or old, not sure)

            If you remember, you are attempting to demonstrate unique and valuable wisdom in the Qur’an. So why did you quote precepts that you think originated long before Muhammad? Ramadhan fasting and pilgrimage have not been taken up as universal wisdom, and the cited attitudes to orphans and to fornication were represented in Babylonian legal code, way before Muhammad! We have not seen here one iota of evidence that Islam has contributed anything at all to world civilisation.

            their rabbis changed a lot

            How do you know that? Did Allah says so, at the time? If not, why did he wait until it was far too late rto say so? If Allah is the creator, it must one terrible chaos in heaven.

            It’s not enough to say “Because the Qur’an says so,” because the Qur’an may be wrong about that. So the claim that ‘Islam is a continuation of Judaism, Christianity’ is dependent on that proof about rabbis. Without it, Islam looks like a mischievous fable based on a novel.

            As for the last point I agree with you but it robs USA or any other country of any credit too

            Britain, the USA, Germany, Sweden, Holland and France were the countries that contributed the most to the early Industrial Revolution, to give Muslims today the ability to write on the internet, among many other things. They were all countries that became more or less democratic, rather than ‘theocratic’. Islam is still dominated by ‘theocracy’, and cannot be said to have made any notable contribution to world development in the modern age, other than the oil on which they sit, the proceeds of the sale of which go to bolster their anti-democratic religion; and, it now seems, in probable cheating in sporting affairs. Not good.

          • YasirDuhham

            No I am not trying to demonstrate anything about wisdom , I am replying to your queries. You asked me to tell you what I think of Exodus **** and I told you that it is very silly ,not like a God or a son of God is to speak that childish ( Kiss your mother and I will give you a candy bar !), not also logical that God says ( I am jealous, please care for my feelings and do not worship another God along with me !). And it is YES, God who is Allah Himself said in Quran that the rabbis forged and manipulated the Torah, hiding some parts of it. Surely neither you nor Jews themselves agree with it but when was the last time a thief came into a police station and confessed to his crimes? I am not only following a dogma, the Exodus parts I read tell me that a sick guy is speaking it because I can write a better text than it, And as for what the west had offered us, it is not a charity, we pay for anything they made, so there is no need to feel inferior to a business that is going on, they need our money and oil, we need their achievements, but you are bragging too much here as if it is only this that your countries had offered us, you are hiding the dark side of it, the imperialism, the executions, the looting of our resources, in fact your people should pay dearly for their sins and atrocities, you still owe much to us, and Internet is but a military invention to serve the US army, now it is a business thing and a spying tool too, so please do not exaggerate the nobleness of your people , a whole country had been wasted and divided and looted under the sick slogan of democracy. We did not have theocracy before it, you should learn this quite well, we had a secular regime that you toppled under false allegations and lies, you (USA, UK, all European countries, Australia and Canada) brought the sectarian affiliation and the theocracy to Iraq, read well before you brag this much, because all IS is doing is due to your engagement in Iraq, nobody tells it to you, I am caring to do. Islam did not contribute to civilization? You missed to watch that documentary I posted, a million is equal to zero when multiplied by zero, without the contributions of Islam and Muslims you would be killing your ladies as witches and burning your scientists as heretics. If your church was that filthy ,our religion was the opposite because it offered and still offers us strength to resist invasions ( like yours) and helps us see our way in life, keep the democracy for your own selves, it only brought havoc upon us, in case you have no idea what Iraqis call it ( Demodhrattiya= Windbreaking), (Dammcracy= Bloodcracy). Fasting and other things that I replied you for were not considered as wisdom acts by me, Once again, I was replying to your questions. Whether Babylonians (or Martians may be!) had practiced it ,it does not mean a thing because Babylonians worshiped idols, not even Christians or Jews have a fasting like ours, it is not only quitting food and water, it is a whole conduct of abiding by many taboos, even a slight badmouthing spoils the fasting, One final word: If it were not for your countries invasions since Andalusia downfall ,we would have walked a quite different path, part of our downfall is your imperialism, cause and effect like your folks say., but even now, your countries support the tyrant dictators and aid them to grant the flow of oil to you and the flow of weapons to us, not one war was waged with weapons made by Muslims, it is always Christians , Jews, Communists & Atheists, let these achievements join your list, the Internet bliss & Co. !

          • pobjoy

            No I am not trying to demonstrate anything about wisdom

            You are trying to reply to this question: Why don’t Muslims produce great thinkers? And all we have seen is repetitions of Babylonian code and the Bible, ideas like pilgrimage and fasting that were also practised in many parts of the world before Muhammad, and which have had precisely zero effect on philosophers like Rousseau, Locke and Voltaire. So Islam cannot be said to have produced great thinkers. It is perfectly true that there have been a few philosophers who were Muslims, but tracing their achievements to Islam, rather than their own independent thought, is difficult. This particular topic is now decided.

            I will take your discussion of other matters, that belong in another part of this thread, as concrete evidence of your demon possession, unless you erase it and post it where it ought to be.

          • Peter Ranford

            I would contend that when Mohammad talks about wisdom it pertained only to the wisdom of submitting to Allah.

          • pobjoy

            Or, that when Muhammad talked about wisdom it pertained only to the wisdom of submitting to Muhammad.

          • YasirDuhham

            Your folks turned his name to Averroes

          • Peter Ranford

            These philosopher guys are among the very rare species during 13 century’s of Islam that dared to try and think outside the Quranic prison, why are they a testimony to Islam and the Quran?

          • YasirDuhham

            What looks to as if a prison is a bliss and heaven to us since it taught us to do others good whereas they themselves can never accept us, and since it transformed us from primitive and tribal life to a much better realm, having strength to topple two great empires in a few years, conquer almost all empires from east to west, assessing for a great presence in almost all continents and maintaining Muslims in countries that are oceans apart from us, they did not revert back to Christianity or pagan faith although the times changed and they are not even occupied by Arabs like before . The list of scholars and philosophers is much longer, I picked a few considering the time allowed . We have Jamal Aldeen Al Afghani & Mohammad Abdah, Abdul Rahman Alkawakibi who were in touch with Ignác (Yitzhaq Yehuda) Goldziher, we have hundreds of scholars whose work had been wasted by the Moguls invading Baghdad and burning everything, and it is known to all scholars, the remaining copies are badly affected at their best . They covered theology (for all faith schools) ,astronomy, physics, chemistry, logic , maths, algebra, even zoology. Muslims know of your philosophers long before you had scientists since the church suppressed science in Europe whereas Islamic faith did not ban it in Baghdad, Damascus, Cairo & Andalusia. Al Ma’moon ( Caliph and son of Haroon Alrasheed) cared to have all Greek and Roman scripts translated to be kept in his (Dar Alhikma= House of Wisdom), a great service that boomeranged it all to Europe at a better and later timing when it was most needed. The invaluable documentary here tells you more, and it is by an outsider : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JZDe9DCx7Wk

          • Peter Ranford

            No Comment on “1001 Inventions” But really who would argue that we do not have heritage from all cultures? Heritage does not in in itself validate Ideology(religion) or world view.

          • YasirDuhham

            However, too many countries( and whole continents too) had been there on the world map as we know them now based on the same idea of Islamic conquests:USA, Canada, Australia, South America as a whole which was both targeted and made to submit to Christianity, and I myself am a resident in this country who wasn’t Persian at all , Arab tribes were there since too long ( Al Manathira Kingdom), and Persia was seizing Iraq like Byzantines were seizing the Levant which was a kingdom of Arabs too ( Al Ghasasina). It was a continuous process along old history, of replacing and/or bringing natives to the faith of the invader, but no one had ever brought horrific tales of extermination in our countries, unlike what Europeans arriving to America did with the natives there. This way I am only approving of my grandfathers conquests same as any American would be telling you of Custer and his fighting with native Americans, albeit the ample difference here

          • YasirDuhham

            All works of Muslim scholars are in Arabic, which means a lot in matters of how far could they go and how much could the west be benefiting from, without translation and without printing facilities they were destined to remain at bay if compared with European works. Muslims believe that Islam is the ultimatum, this means that there is not much interest of seeking answers that the restless west is after, it is about a need that is there, and someone trying to fulfill it, just like sales and marketing.

          • YasirDuhham

            You may be right unless someone relates European & American achievements to Christianity or Judaism( or to Atheism ,most probably) and credits those faiths for it. This way it works either directions, i.e, you can’t blame Quran, Islam or Mohammad for any fallacies that Muslims have( unless they had been ordered or preached to do it). The only thing that I can say here is that those scholars were destined to dwell in wars and tribal styles of living, way off from any civil or civilized pattern if they were not to convert to Islam, because Mohammad is quoted to say ( Seeking Science is a duty of every Muslim, male or female), and ( Seek science even if it takes going as far as to China), and Quran says ” The only truly conscious of God amongst his worshipers are those with knowledge “, so one can relate it all and attribute all scientific achievements to the true and only motive, Islam itself.

          • Peter Ranford

            No your logic is wrong, weather or not biblical ideas contributed to development of philosophy and science has not bearing on the relationship of the great thinkers of the “Islamic enlightenment with the teachings of the Quran.

          • YasirDuhham

            Please clarify: Does it credit Christianity or Judaism or even Atheism itself that your scientific and philosophic achievements were led by great people mostly of these three faith/no faith schools? It looks ambiguous in your latest comment

          • YasirDuhham

            From a famous prophet quote or Hadith: In Judgement Day, God asks three men( categories of men in deed) why did the first( a cleric or scientist) care to pursuit that mission? , and a Quran reciter almost the same question, and finally a martyr, why did he fight till the last breath? They all reply that it was for Him and His course of righteousness but He falsifies their allegations, telling them that their intentions was as follows,respectively: for wealth and vanity as for the first,so that people would flatter the second, and so that people would say he was very brave as for the third. According to Islam, you maintain that Allah-bound intention, so that all you do refrains from any minor detail that Allah disapprove of, i.e, no harm to others, no self ego,..etc

          • YasirDuhham

            If one denies relating Islam to the scientific achievements of Muslim scholars while Islam urges and promotes seeking knowledge, then we need to find a connection between European scientists and free thinkers and Christianity itself, does the Bible urge Christians to seek knowledge ?

          • Peter Ranford

            weather or not biblical ideas contributed to development of philosophy and science HAS NO BEARING on the relationship of the great thinkers of the “Islamic enlightenment” with that of the teachings of the Quran.

          • YasirDuhham

            You are trying to prove something that can’t be proved, I’ll tell you why: Theology & Science are like parallel lines, they never meet ! Two totally opposed and separate realms , because science would always demand that you “see & sense” God, Satan, Angels, ..etc , it demands that you witness those historical events in order to believe them and be 100% sure of them( Seeing Is Believing), whereas religious faith is mainly about dogma, and faith is a bout a leap one takes, it is about the heart more it is about the mind( brain) which is what science is all about, it is much about things unseen, not sensed, but it is hard to acquire peace of mind and tranquility without that faith. It is like the body & soul, the first is to be approached by physical science, the second has its alternative tools of healing and approaching. Still, Quran has more than 3 locations highlighting the importance of science and being enlightened,other monotheism seem to miss this inclusion, I inquired and no one managed to offer a proof.

      • LG

        Actually, it’s exactly what I should expect. These men saw through the deity fiction created by ignorance. That’s why the period was called the Enlightenment. Your culture needs an enlightenment, so that your literal interpretation of some book from the Stone Age doesn’t form your world view. No one has had any intellectual excuse for believing in sky fairies since Darwin explained how we all got here.

        • pobjoy

          These men saw through the deity fiction created by ignorance.

          None of them was/is atheist.

          Darwin explained how we all got here

          Darwin did not think so. He even mentioned life ‘having been originally breathed by the Creator’. A very unscientific comment, true, but a poetic reflection of his informed belief in theistic evolution.

          How desperate are cowards like LG.

          • LG

            You seem to have a ‘coward’ fixation. Is that your retort to everything?

            Since when did you invent ‘theistic’ evolution? Is that when your religious arguments about the old 7 day creation get a bit thin?

            I don’t know what Darwin believed, and neither do you. But I know that he removed much of the the ignorance that, until then, had allowed reasonable men to suppose that a deity was necessary for the creation of the living world.

          • pobjoy

            You seem to have a ‘coward’ fixation.

            Yet another lie.

            Since when did you invent ‘theistic’ evolution?

            More cowardice. There is no such thing. Theistic evolution has been believed (or believed possible) by very many; ancient Greeks, Jews and pseudo-Christians, long before the modern ToE. Darwin’s grandfather proposed it, in effect. He doubtless influenced Charles.

          • LG

            You’re funny. But not in a good way.

          • pobjoy

            Insults are what people use when they are out of their depth.

          • LG

            There was no insult.

          • pobjoy

            Then there needs to be evidence that theistic evolution has not been believed (or believed possible) by very many; ancient Greeks, Jews and pseudo-Christians, long before the modern ToE. That Darwin’s grandfather did not propose it, in effect. You have to show that you are sufficiently competent to post.

          • LG

            I suggest you have to show you’re not a religious wing nut. That is an insult. And I’m finished this thread. Bye.

          • pobjoy

            I’m finished this thread.

            Try the shallow end.

    • pobjoy

      Dawkins, eh. 🙂

    • YasirDuhham

      I believe that all civilizations and communities dwell in the circle of civil and/or foreign wars on their course to freedom and independence, it is never prior to that stage that any free thinker is ready to compose and circulate his ideas. The Islamic world as I see it is still dwelling in that bloody circle, even if one man risks it and try to spread his vision of a better society, justice, civil rights, equality,…etc, not so much will be responding to him. We are still under the bottom line of the lowest requirements of a decent life, in terms of Maslow hierarchy of needs, we hadn’t secured our legitimate rights of lodging, food, and the rest of essential needs. One close look at how Muslims spend their lives( with the top level guys exploiting all the good resources,all the time) can answer hundreds of queries asked by outsiders.

      • LG

        I have no doubt that many muslims are in poverty and if you’re too busy trying to earn a living, there’s not much time for philosophy. However, the same could have been said of the 17th and 18th century in Britain and France. And yet they produced a succession of great philosophers and scientists who led the West out of religious stupidity. There are plenty of muslims who are well off – and yet no great contemporary thinkers are emerging from the muslim world to enlighten their fellows. They are still mired in religious bigotry, dogma and internecine conflict. A great shame.

        • YasirDuhham

          I could never oppose this idea of yours, it is what we are trying to open the eyes for but considering the chronic illness they are in it looks as if I am pushing a mountain ! The whole Islamic world had been invaded and occupied by foreign powers since those dark ages, it is only after WW I that they got off the Ottomans and started enjoying independence around mid nineties passed, but the fatal conflicts never ceased to happen especially the Israeli state and Palestinians plight. The latest decades were about Iran and its ambitions to take over, now it all about sectarian affiliation and homage, it is a terrible mess here

          • LG

            Forgive me if i sound unsympathetic, but for your culture and its contribution to humanity, war and conflict is no excuse. The 17th and !8th centuries were some of Europe’s most turbulent times. The French Revolution, the Terror, the Napoleonic wars, etc,etc. But that was the era when the people of Europe cast off their religious masters and their philosophers gained freedom of speech and thought. If I could, I would carpet bomb the middle east with copies of Dawkins’s “The God Delusion’. Maybe if enough of you read it and understood it, you’d run the mullah’s and the religious extremists out of town!

          • YasirDuhham

            Not at all, I may be trying to find an apology for the loss we had been through but the real thing is that the dogma is a steel grip here, no one can break it open. Not only about the Deity, it is about people believing that the dead can hear them, make their wishes come true. The ask for fertility, for wealth and fortune, for healing. The religion had been substituted by sectarian homage and there is no way to let them open their eyes, never. The religion that seems to offend you is their only resort, they deduce their survival and patience from it because the Mullas control their minds 100%. The upper class that is ruling and making use of the country’s resources accuse any radical resistance to be heretic( remember Emanuel Goldstein Orwell’s of 1984?), the resistance see religion as its weapon to topple those regimes, hence, no way of convincing people of any heretic vision

          • Hamburger

            “The whole Islamic world had been invaded and occupied by foreign powers since those dark ages,” is complete nonsense. Any study of history would show that from the dark ages until the 18th century the subjection of Christian lands by Muslims was immense.

          • YasirDuhham

            All wars, major wars with heaviest casualties amongst civilians were Christian wars( 10 Crusades and counting ), Imperialist occupation, communist wars(Afghanistan ,an example), Christian-Christian wars ( WW I& WW II), nuclear annihilation led by a Christian nation called USA, Orthodox Christian massacres ( Bosnia & Herzegovina , Afghanistan again, Pakistan, Iraq, Somalia, and still counting ), Do you read history ? Do you have any idea of what I am saying here ?

          • Hamburger

            Perhaps you have forgotten the Islamic conquest of Christian middle east, north Africa, Spain, Turkey the Balkans and the invasion of France and Austria, all of which took place between the 7th and 17th century. All were as a result of an expansion of Islam at the cost of Christian lands and people.
            To which I should add, the Islamic conquest of Afghanistan and India at the cost to Buddhist and Hindus.
            I am afraid that I missed the nuclear annihilation, I must have been in my bunker. When did it happen?
            .

          • YasirDuhham

            How could I be forgetting our own victories and triumphs, yet the Christians and Jews lived in harmony here all these centuries? It all started 14 centuries ago beating 2 so-called great empires (who themselves were very much out of their own lands !!!). To best judge our conquests without a biased intention you need to recall what was Europe & UK up to by then ! All nations were in a stampede of seizing more lands and spreading their theology by sword, that was the most prevailing paradigm, Romans & Greeks did so too in case you have no idea how far did Alexander The Great go, or Atilla, or Napoleon, or your ten crusades. Tell me the name of one European country whose history was about sticking to its own territory and not invading other countries, tell me the name of one Islamic and/or Arabic country that was not occupied and suppressed by sword through a Christian other country from Europe or UK itself ? To judge what we did and just us and dodging your own conquests and occupation it is not fair of you. It is known to all scholars that history had never known a conqueror more merciful than Arabs(Muslim Arabs, to be precise).

          • Hamburger

            I think that you will find that the British were at least as as merciful to their subjects as the Arabs. Indeed I would be one of the last to ignore and fail to praise the many achievements of the Muslim world. My point is that the Islamic world was and is as bloodthirsty as any other, whatever it’s achievements, and if they had had their way they would have taken over the whole of the world.
            I made no reference to European conquests because you had done so eloquently enough. They just needed to be put in perspective.
            It is easy to blame others for your own problems. It is only when you start accepting that you are also at fault that solutions can be found. We are still a long way from that.

          • YasirDuhham

            Do you have that B&W image of oldtimers being shot from British canons ? Or the French soldiers with beheaded resistance of Algeria & Morocco ? Or the clip of aFrench soldiers shooting civilians in frenzy and executing them in-situ, no resistance no weapons to have ? https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/8dfaae56f52dee8577008aaec941ed9db7cb3c5554c1beff29771770d6d1fcf0.png

          • Hamburger

            There was an element of irony in my first sentence. The past was a bloody time, no matter where you look.

          • YasirDuhham

            If I was to forget 99% of other commentators statements it would never be this one because I felt very grateful to you for telling the truth that we all have to embrace, thank you for it in specific, as well as for other locations too

          • Peter Ranford

            Living as Dhimmi may be considered to be acceptable for past centuries but its not a model for how I am prepared to live with under Islamic rule. That kind of harmony has been over romanticised.

          • YasirDuhham

            It is (Thimmi) not Dhimmi, just to let you be acknowledged of how non-Arabs tend to deform things ,eventually it reaches you twisted in any which way. You are totally righteous about it because the context and age is never like before. In Iraq it wasn’t an Islamic regime during the eighties of last century yet Christians were spared serving in the battlefields. It was high times for Christian Iraqis all those 35 years of Saddam and his part’s reign, even long before it too, so you are talking about a very old term that had not been even mentioned here at least for a century back from now. Christians like your case are very welcomed in KSA ,Emirates ,Oman, Tunisia, Lebanon, that they prefer employing you and not any Muslim and/or Arab fellow. It is the other way around, who is favored and who is excluded.

          • YasirDuhham

            And you need be acknowledge that USA dropped two nuclear bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki , no army was there and all those bombed did was annihilation, get out of your bunker Mr. Hamburger ! Read History, Good for you in deed !

          • Hamburger

            I’m sorry, I did not realise that Japan was an Islamic land.

          • YasirDuhham

            No I did not focus on Islamic countries alone, I agree that any conquest is about seizing lands and turning the lives of people there, some to the worst and others to a better life, this is what even happened here in Iraq after 2003, but I was comparing the casualties of humanity on both sides: due to Islamic conquests and non-Islamic wars or conquests or imperialism, whatever., you surely noticed WWI & WWII, all in Europe most than any. What you said about bloodthirsty quarrels here is not a pride to me too, I feel ashamed of it just like you might be, and I attribute it in part to us, being mostly ignorant of the world around us, not ready to accept power sharing or conciliatory solutions, and partly on the west because we believe that all totalitarian , tyrant and cruel regimes are created and supported by the west, it is the oil,the need to weaken us so that Israel is safe, and other reasons too.

          • Hamburger

            I think more were killed in the 20th century because we have and had more efficient means of doing so.
            We can agree that the past was in many ways awful and that we should do better. If we spend our time explaining why we were badly treated and therefore need privileges we won’t get anywhere.

          • YasirDuhham

            In their book (The Legacy of Islam) Schacht & Bosworth spoke about Saladin and how he did not act in bloodthirsty vengeance while he could. They said that he was the nearest to Mohammad’s character, and that Crusaders composed a long poem of some 70 bars speaking of Saladin who( was originally a Christian kid kidnapped and raised as a Muslim), they attributed his humane and cavalry character to any but a real Muslim or Arab. Actually he was a Kurdish Muslim, but notice how they viewed Mohammad in contrast. I agree with you that humanity need to take a leap and start all over , no one should be that proud with his history since it all included blood and massive grief

          • Peter Ranford

            Just one point that strikes me here. Why on earth do you think that if you (Arab countries) are strong then Israel would be unsafe?

          • YasirDuhham

            Why Wonder? It is just what all politicians and leaders of your west keep saying to win elections, with all support and nuclear arsenal made available to Israel by France, UK & USA, (India & Russia too, in later decades). Part of the Islamic-Israeli incurable enmity is due to the history of their main 3 tribes that sided with pagans against Muslims in Medina and were sacked (and punished too), the other part is because the west punished Palestinians choosing their lands to indemnify Jews for the holocaust , it should have been Germany in stead ! Did it ever cross your mind how bizarre was it to allow Israel to be in Palestine and not Germany that was responsible for the Jews prosecution in WW II ? The most prominent prophecy in Quran is in Surat A Israa’, it tells Muslims that Israel will be there and it tells them that it will prevail but then downfalls , this is a paradigm that had seen the light of day in 1948, and the conflict is about life or death, inevitable. ( 4. And We gave [Clear] Warning to the Children of Israel in the Book, that twice
            would they do mischief on the earth and be elated with mighty arrogance [and
            twice would they be punished]!
            5. When the first of the warnings came to pass, We sent against you Our servants
            given to terrible warfare: They entered the very inmost parts of your homes; and
            it was a warning [completely] fulfilled. )

          • Peter Ranford

            So you agree that Israel may not stand and the Muslims must destroy it.
            Your grievance mongering goes back the whole 1400 years.
            You started off your comments by trying to defend the Quran and thereby Islam on the claim of lack of forgiveness but you just illustrate the true lack of tolerance and forgiveness in your culture. You will not disagree that Jew have always been present in the area and the Middle East, in fact the number of Jew forcibly ejected and dispossessed Arab countries is similar to the number of Jordanian and other Arabs that fled Israel. The Arab nab ours encourage the evacuation but refuse to give refuge to them and keep them in limbo as a weapon. Soon more of us will wake up to the this fowl game.

          • YasirDuhham

            You don’t get things well, do you? You don’t differentiate between me talking about what is there in Quran and what is my own perspective of it since I am living in 2015 and have my own idea of how to deal with all sects and religions ? ِ.The article was all about a blind man reading Quran and claiming zero forgiveness in Quran, I offered more than twenty proofs which resolves the main issue ( Not through Googling as the wise jerk was saying ) , this is the main thing, other issues are for exchanging thought no more, whether I hate Israel or not is none of your business, even God Himself hates Israel ,otherwise he is not worth a bow and he is your God not mine ! The Israeli surge had been prophesied in Quran , you can’t deny it, you can’t argue about it , it is a Muslims vs. Zionists thing. How much displaced here and there is not a reasonable alibi or justification, it is a stolen, hijacked and abducted land, and one way or another they are going to be swept like dirt out of it.

          • YasirDuhham

            Where did my reply go? Did you receive a reply for this very comment of yours? I remember us talking about Hiroshima & Nagasaki and else

          • Hamburger

            I did.

          • YasirDuhham

            Thanks for acknowledging

          • YasirDuhham

            Actually, it is the dark ages of our own, right after the Abbasid era till the downfall of Ottomans, not the European dark ages, I need to highlight this

          • Goinlike Billio

            Yes. It was a tragedy for the arabs that they arrived in the modern world after a gap of seven centuries.

          • YasirDuhham

            I always say that we live in a past life of yours, all that you mock at or despise was there with you in a past time not that far away from 1940 may be, the apartheid in USA was there, we did not have it ,mostly because it is a major highlight in Islamic teachings that the Americans don’t seem to be able to refrain from .

          • Goinlike Billio

            When you say that you live in a past life of yours ie the west . I would agree with you. It is for the reason I gave.

          • YasirDuhham

            ًCould you please tell me what is the good things that Ataturk brought to Turkish nation? I already am a fan of this nation, just to let you know

      • Goinlike Billio

        My comment has disappeared .You asked me why I thought that the Turks had got it right and about the extraordinary Kemal Ataturk.
        For starters of all the twentieth century strongmen and dictators throughout the world he is the only one who remains standing,all the rest have been discredited.He is revered in his own country again a unique achievement. So he must have got something right.
        One of the things he did was to turn his country decisively towards the west. He realized that it was not enough simply to take on a veneer of western ideas. There had to be some more fundamental acceptance.
        All successful non western cultures are in fact amalgams of their own cultures and that of the west.They bear no resemblance to what they were a century ago.Western imperialism is of no particular relevence as this has been a necessary part of their survival . Some of them as a result of this fusion are now more successful than the west which is declining.
        There is simply no future in the islamist model of rejecting the west and trying to prevent the necessary mental change in the outlook of it’s adherents.It has never worked.

        • YasirDuhham

          Thanks a lot ,I could never disagree with you since it is all rational, non-biased and polite, I have come across several sick guys here who shift from fanatic Christians who are only about exporting their own sickening theology, all the way to claiming they are atheist , but atheists who are much like a cheap trollop that cares for no ethics or values. Thank you once again. The part that said ( Western imperialism is of no particular relevence as this has been a necessary part of their survival ) reminds me of how Islamic conquests were very necessary for a rising empire that was born in a semi arid environment, while some criticizes it as if a luxury or greed

        • YasirDuhham

          It is all worth considering, thank you dear

  • YasirDuhham

    So, in brief, it turned out the Vicar of The North Pole or Zimbabwe( but never of Baghdad) had been stoned, mistaking the Kama Sutra for Quran, and of course there is no forgiveness in the Kama Sutra !

    • pobjoy

      Yasir, papist.

      • YasirDuhham

        Thank you, I am flattered this way

        • pobjoy

          As long as you don’t deny it.

          • YasirDuhham

            Why should I be denying it? I am a radical Muslim,much against any church even if within Islam itself. In fact the only reason I attended this discussion was to reply for the Vicar’s wrong finding and I did what it takes to falsify his statement. It is the fanatics ( both Christian and atheists) who dragged the comments to further orbits, now imagine how does it feel to debate an atheist, and a Christian believer ? They should be scratching each others’ face, not mine ! In defining monotheism I have to defend Christianity & Judaism too, but when people of both religions start attacking with no right proof, I am destined to act as an Anti-Christ, or Anti-Moses . This goes against the reconciliation that serves all religions, but it is just what they are after

          • pobjoy

            Why should I be denying it?

            No truthful reason. A ‘pope’ kissed a Qur’an, and both are very combustible.

          • YasirDuhham

            I did not bring any notice of that Pope and kissing the Quran. In fact there is nothing heavenly about a Pope or any cleric in Islam too, it is all improvised and made up. What is more important than a Pope kissing or spitting on a Quran copy is the fact that Islam is the only religion (monotheism) that recognizes the proceeding faiths and asks its followers to refrain from hurting Christians or Jews, there is no such thing in both Christianity and Judaism, say the opposite is there, so the peaceful intention is there in Islam ( provided that the case is not a crusade or occupation like Israelis do )

          • McRobbie

            Why if the book “asks” followers to refrain from hurting christians and jews (and indeed other muslims of a different shade of interpretation) do they get their rocks off doing just that in the most brutal way possible? Every verse reference I read confirms that islam is a medieval war call to take over the world, violently if “necessary”.

          • YasirDuhham

            The history of all mankind is about wars, accusing only Muslims of a war is a biased wrongdoing, just compare the victims of WWI & WWII, to any casualties that Muslims had inflicted to a foreign nation , check what communists had committed in Cambodia, Korea, Afghanistan,Iraq . Check what Orthodox Christians did to Bosnia Herzegovina ,and how filthy their crimes were both in scores and grotesque , Check what USA did to civilian Japanese people with those nuclear bombs, check what Hindus did with Muslims when Pakistan was first made, you may not know it that British army shot old Indians from canons ! I am amazed to the amount of atrocities that had been waged by all other labels, while you find terrified rats here spreading Islamophobia as if it is Moguls migrating to Europe not poor and oppressed Muslims who lost their homeland all because of the greed of the Christian west

          • YasirDuhham

            I tend to see that Muslims(In Arab countries in specific) feel that they had been done wrong : In Libya by Italians, in Algeria & Morocco by France, in Iraq, Egypt, Sudan & Palestine by UK. They feel the need to even it, may be. I would appreciate a correction if any, regarding the atrocities I am bringing here, it created a feeling of bitterness and enmity that is still acting deep within, see Palestinians and tell me: Who is doing the other wrong? Not one Jew was killed in Iraq( even in other Arab countries), but when Israel was there, it was Palestinians being massacred while the world was either muted or applauding. There is too much flames under the ashes my friend, unless it is all healed the abhor and enmity will still be there. When that crazy Gaddafi caused the Lockerbie tragedy your people followed it for decades and demanded indemnifications, now there is a whole country that had been destroyed, why nobody speaks of indemnifications, admitting the sin and doing what it takes to rectify what had been put into chaos? This is the heart of the matter for IS, but nobody speaks of it, you do your part and the whole world is relieved of this havoc and enmity between us all

        • Andropov

          Listen Arafat you flattened not flattered. There is absolutely nothing you can be flattered about. You are defending your Satanic verses that have nothing good in it. Bunch of nonsense written by a psycho a child molester. Aisha was only 9 years old when your hero “married” her. If you had any intelligence you would not be flattered, you should be ashamed not flattered.

          • YasirDuhham

            Eat Your Heart Popeye (LOL), easiest to frig among a whole audience

  • Ismail Latiff

    Canon Andrew White shouldnot comment on the quran if he is ignorant of it. I have a list of about 100 various quranic lines that mentioned about forgiveness. So will Canon White like to contact me and i will try to educate him. If Canon White has any intelligence than he should know that terrorist groups use religion as a tool to justify their cause and Canon White have given them the tool.

    • pobjoy

      On what grounds do Muslims think that there is anything to be forgiven?

      • Peter Ranford

        Unbelief can not be forgiven only destroyed. as I have this Verse handy there is why.

        YUSUF ALI 9:80

        Whether thou ask for their forgiveness, or not, (their sin is unforgivable): if thou ask seventy times for their forgiveness, Allah will not forgive them: because they have rejected Allah and His Messenger: and Allah guideth not those who are perversely rebellious.

        • pobjoy

          YUSUF ALI 9:80

          What reason is there to believe that?

          • Richard

            He was the translator, was he not? According to Muslims the Quran cannot properly be translated and so one needs to know who the translator is, rather than simply “the Quran”.

          • pobjoy

            What reason is there to believe the Qur’an?

          • Andropov

            NO reason at all, it is a lie produced by child molester.

          • YasirDuhham

            If you find any text that promotes hatred, despise of others, racism and contradiction with the main stream of human beings seeking peace and harmony, it might be a reason to. If Islam was made up by Mohammad he should have made a fortune of it, regarded his mother or wife of them as the lady of all women, but it is Mary in stead. If he was an Anti-Christ he would not have asked us to do Christians and Jews ( Kitabiyyoon)good otherwise he is to their side on Judgement Day, if he was a phony prophet the Quran would not have blamed him more than once and pointed it to him that he should have avoided that very thing ( Surat No 80, and other Aayas from other Suras),if it was a Mohammedan thing he wouldn’t have prophesied that Jesus Christ will descend before Judgement Day and restores things right, if Mohammad was making it all up he would have avoided mentioning the miracles of Jesus Christ and Moses which were great proofs of their missions, he wouldn’t have brought Solomon’s great and very unique miracles of talking to animals and ruling over Jinn realm, he would have ridiculed them or simply never mentioned them at all. I myself aided a Christian family who ran out of any cash on their way to the states. I am talking about thousands of dollars in a country like Iraq where 400 hundred dollars means a whole month expenditure. And when the town was seeing red lately we were hosted in a monastery by nuns , it is because we had been friends with them exchanging visits with them and celebrating their seasons in their place too. Where I live Christians were no different from us until the regime was toppled and everything turned into chaos and violence, it wasn’t Islam nor the Quran, it was what the US administration brought upon this country. It takes a lot to be a real Muslim, because quite a few ones can be regarded so, those whom you see and dislike are shades of Islam , the image is totally upside down, and I blame those phony Muslims for defaming this religion

          • pobjoy

            we were hosted in a monastery by nuns

            Kindred spirits, antichrists, together.

          • YasirDuhham

            Tellesqaf Monastery

          • pobjoy

            Lesbianism.

          • YasirDuhham

            I respect them beyond what you may imagine. Taken from their poor families to serve the community, they spare no effort to help any,Muslim or Christian. I always get a kiss from two of them, right in front of my wife. I be damned if I am any Anti-Christ, it is just the provocations some Christians raise, but deep inside Jesus Christ is no less than Mohammad to me and all my folks, if I ever badmouth him, I might be killed, by any Muslim, or spitted upon in the least.

          • pobjoy

            I respect them

            Of course you do. Papism was invented to murder Christians, Muhammad copied the idea.

          • YasirDuhham

            Suit yourself, as you please

          • pobjoy

            Agreement at last.

          • YasirDuhham

            I myself wouldn’t ask any outsider to learn Arabic. “Translator is a Traitor” so goes the saying because no matter how he tries his best to translate literally, he would fail to convey it 100% as it was originally. You are not requested to believe Quran, I am not trying to let you like it or believe it, just giving answers where you are asking me, and it is all prone to falsification like any other text as long as you are an outsider

          • Richard

            The “translator is a traitor” is a Latin play on words, because they have almost the same word sound (traduttore, traditore). Nuance, certainly, suffers in translation, but no language is untranslatable. They are all hyman inventions. From my readings of the Koran, the whole first quarter to a third is about how awful the unbelievers are, what fires await them, and how Muslims must shun them. Even Allah will not forgive them, it says, which is then set against Allah being “all-forgiving”. In any event, it is a religious text which, like other religious texts, is confused and, as you say, open to interpretation.

          • pobjoy

            open to interpretation

            Even, deliberately ambiguous.

          • Peter Ranford

            You guys arguing about translations is silly. I could have picked one of a dozen translations and all very much mean the same thing. If Muslims start complaining about this is usually means they have run out of proper arguments. When you have read a couple of translations you know the jist of the ideas Mohammad was pushing and they are not very sophisticated at that.

          • pobjoy

            I could have picked one of a dozen translations and all very much mean the same thing.

            Of course you could. Some of us have done just that, to find just that.

            If Muslims start complaining about this is usually means they have run out of proper arguments.

            Indeed. There is no meaning, in any language, modern or ancient, that cannot be expressed in any other language, ancient or modern, given sufficient skill.

          • YasirDuhham

            No you are totally wrong here. You seem to have no idea of how Arabic language outsmarts any other language, you stand helpless in front one ‘Aaya, and fail to even come out with 10% of its grandeur whether you translate it to English or else. Unless you know what makes Arabic fit for a Deity to convey his words at the greatest impact you can’t judge it, ever. See Aayat Alkursi ( 2-255)! Al Noor is the title of the 24th Sura, the only counter word in your language is (Light) but it is something more than just a light. Your English is for business not poetry, it serves for correspondence not aesthetic formats, your language fails to tell how to address a female or two people, it is all (You), unlike Arabic. Man, you need to implore this important fallacy of your language

          • pobjoy

            So how important is the understanding of Arabic to being a Muslim?

          • YasirDuhham

            If you are to explore Islam, say as we do when we read diagonally, in a hurry, all you need is to know what is it that Islam is all about(Fundamentals), what is it that Islam is not in common with Christianity & Judaism, what are the major sins that you should avoid as much as possible, and the least Quranic texts to let you do your five daily prayers. If you go in for intricate details you might get lost( Not only for missing on Arabic, but because Islam in its raw form is much simpler, sects and different faith schools of Sunna & Shiia ,along with a bitter legacy of historical conflicts that some sects adopted as if religious and not political). My recommendation of Sheikh Hamza Hansson is based on his rational vision, bridging Islam with all other faiths, and the pacifist trend he embraces.

          • pobjoy

            If you are to explore Islam

            Answer the question. How important is the understanding of Arabic to being a Muslim?

          • YasirDuhham

            Yes Sir: If you follow a non-biased translation like y=that of Yusuf Abdullah, I am pretty sure that you don’t need to learn Arabic, although the main terminology is a must ( Salat for prayers, Sawm for fasting, Hajj for pilgrimage, Wuthoo’ for cleansing that proceeds praying, Tahara for being very clean in body and what it implies, because this is all like the Newspeak of Orwell, hard to find a one-term peer for it in other languages, Jama’ah for mass prayers, not individually, ..etc): This is the pdf link for the recommended translation: http://www.streathammosque.org/uploads/quran/english-quran-yusuf-ali.pdf

          • pobjoy

            I am pretty sure that you don’t need to learn Arabic

            So when I wrote:

            ‘There is no reason to learn Arabic, as far as can be reasonably detected.’

            your reply to that:

            ‘No you are totally wrong here’

            was incorrect.

            the recommended translation:

            Even the recommended translation fails ‘to even come out with 10% of its grandeur’. So the great majority of Muslims, who know not a word of Arabic, are in gloomy ignorance of less than 10% of the grandeur of Allah. And who knows what else they are missing?

            Unless it’s a pile of garbage, of course, and it’s best if they don’t understand Arabic. Some people have recently been shot dead because they could not recite a verse of this book, which most Muslims presumably can recite, but do not know what they mean when they parrot it. So people who think that Islam is pure evil can learn a verse of the Qur’an, and live! It’s a religion of submission, alright, submission to murderers. It’s based on apparent insanity brought on by fear.

          • pobjoy

            ‘Allah- there is no deity except Him, the Ever-Living, the Sustainer of [all]
            existence. Neither drowsiness overtakes Him nor sleep. To Him belongs
            whatever is in the heavens and whatever is on the earth. Who is it that
            can intercede with Him except by His permission? He knows what is
            [presently] before them and what will be after them, and they encompass
            not a thing of His knowledge except for what He wills. His Kursi extends
            over the heavens and the earth, and their preservation tires Him not.
            And He is the Most High, the Most Great.’

            Nicked straight out of the Bible. Any clown can do that.

          • YasirDuhham

            You mean that this is part of the Bible ???? Why didn’t you translate (Kursi), and why did you chose (what will be after them) and not ( what is behind them), and why is it ( His Kursi extends over heavens and the earth) and not ( His Kursi contains all skies and earth) as it is literally? And it is not that literal saying ( Who is it that can intercede with Him) and not ( There is no one that can intercede ) because it is not an interrogation form, Arabic is an ocean, and I suggest you ask Sheikh Hamza , the American fellow that learned Arabic and converted to Islam( of Zaytoona University -California) : How Arabic is far more beautiful and inspiring than English. English fits almost all other contemporary applications, but never poetry or as an alternative to Quran’s language. All a Muslim can do is offer a brief meaning of the text, but it is less than half the effort to figure out its full comprehension. I like English very much, but when it comes to comparing it to my language as a Quran language I simply can’t accept English as a fully competent language

          • pobjoy

            You mean that this is part of the Bible ?

            Every word of it. But as you had to Google the Bible, you could not have known that.

            Why didn’t you translate (Kursi)

            Because I knew what it means. Don’t you?

            English fits almost all other contemporary applications, but never poetry

            There is more poetry in English than there is poetry in any other language. Have you ever heard of the poet William Shakespeare, who wrote sonnets? He quoted an English translation of the Bible many times in his plays. But never the Qur’an, afaik. The word ‘light’ has metaphoric meaning in English, like thousands of other words, and if you knew much English poetry, you would know that.

            But the Bible was written in Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek. There were many Greek poets, and parts of the Hebrew Bible have been described by expert non-believers as great poetry in their own right. The Bible actually uses more figures of speech than English does, and that is a great many.

            The Qur’an, to my reading of apparently competent translations, is poetic when it plagiarises the Bible, but is otherwise more or less incoherent, often seeming to be deliberately ambiguous. Others have the same opinion. So whatever literary value the Qur’an holds may be said to be due to ‘copy and paste’.

          • YasirDuhham

            Now you know that your lies had been fooling only you, it is an inferiority complex, Quran weighs a thousand Bibles, and Arabic is the greatest language of all

          • pobjoy

            Arabic is a big deal because Muslims have realised that Hebrew is not called ‘God’s own language’ for nothing.

          • pobjoy

            your lies

            Where?

          • YasirDuhham

            Then it is : Kussummak: learn Arabic to find out what it means, never had I come across a stupid bluff like you

          • pobjoy

            learn Arabic to find out what it means

            So Yasir seems to be saying that most Muslims do not know what the Qur’an means. Is that right?

            It seems to me that most Muslims do not care what it means, as long as it says that Jesus did not die for them, to atone for their wrongdoing.

          • YasirDuhham

            You seem to be very drunk at the moment (LOL)

          • pobjoy

            Muslims are simple to beat in any condition.

          • YasirDuhham

            You sure are a clown, a British clown too, since you mentioned Shakespeare as if I need some one to acknowledge me of that silly poet and writer with his ugly language of THOU & THEE, I figured it that you are a cheap con who thinks he can fool others: http://islamawakened.com/quran/2/255/

          • pobjoy

            🙂 No wonder Islam never produced any thinkers.

          • YasirDuhham

            This is Aayat Alkursi itself jerk, not any of the wicked bible, you are a worthless manure

          • pobjoy

            The wicked Bible? So Allah is wicked?

          • Peter Ranford

            “You seem to have no idea of how Arabic language outsmarts any other language, you stand helpless in front one ‘Aaya, and fail to even come out with 10% of its grandeur”
            Oh so this is why so few books get translated into Arabic because when they do they may suddenly become so much grander and meaningful.
            Arabic must be the only Language in the world that can accurately
            rely meaning.
            So would you agree with the premises that you cannot convey the meaning of the Quran to non Arabic speaker?
            In which case can you proselytize and how do these non Arabic speaker evaluate Islam?

          • YasirDuhham

            Firstly: This is meant specifically for the liar that had been asking for proofs ,and yet every time I offer him that proof he would be bypassing it and resorting to bad mouthing. Secondly: This is a 2-way statement: Every other language when translated to Arabic it loses its magic( the talented sense of that writer ). Third: Arabic is more beautiful than English, this is what scholars more enlightened than me and than you had been telling the world of, I know of both languages, so I can tell, you just can’t because apparently ,you can’t even pronounce the Arabic Alphabet, never, at least six letters of it would make it very funny of you to even try( ع ، ء ، ظ ، ض ، ط، ح) , trust me ! No hard feelings and no offense meant. Our poetry is about masterpieces, yours is all just child play and just inserting weird words no more

          • YasirDuhham

            Quoting Jean Jacques Roussous : ” French, English, and
            German are the private languages of men who help one another, who
            coolly reason with one another, or of quick-tempered people who get angry;
            but the ministers of the Gods prodaiming the sacred mysteries, the
            wise giving laws to peoples, leaders carrying along the multitude must
            speak Arabic or Persian.* Our languages are better written than spoken,
            and there is more pleasure in reading us than there is in listening to us. In
            contrast, when written, oriental languages lose their life and warmth.
            Only half of the meaning is in the words, all its force is in the accents. To
            judge the genius of the Orientals by their Books is like wanting to paint a
            man from his corpse. In order to appraise men’s actions properly, they have to be considered
            in all their relations, and this is what we have not at all learned to do. When
            we put ourselves in the place of others, we always put ourselves there such
            as we have been modified, not such as they must have been, and when we
            think we are judging them by reason, we are only comparing their prejudices
            with ours. Someone who can read a little Arabic smiles when leafing
            through the Koran, had he heard Mohammed in person proclaim it in that
            eloquent and rhythmic language, with that sonorous and persuasive voice
            which seduced the ear before the heart, and constantly animating his
            aphorisms with the accent of enthusiasm, he would have prostrated himself
            on the earth while crying out: great Prophet, Messenger of God, lead
            us to glory, to martyrdom; we want to conquer or to die for you. Fanaticism
            always appears ridiculous to us, because among us it has no voice to
            make itself heard.111 Even our fanatics are not true fanatics, they are merely
            knaves or fools. Our languages, instead of inflections for the inspired, have
            only cries for those possessed by the Devil. “

          • YasirDuhham

            And this is from the mind of the great Jean Jacques Rousseau , the great thinker that LG described this way a few days before

          • YasirDuhham
          • YasirDuhham

            One word in Arabic of Quran that you need seven words to translate it !

          • YasirDuhham

            I pasted the part of Jean Jacques Rousseau that he supports my idea. Arabic & Persian are best spoken and heard, English, French & German are best written & read, the effect difference is immense

          • YasirDuhham

            Not arguing about translations, I asked him to offer a translation of 2-255, a very famous Aaya called (Alkursi), he ran and brought an English translation of it and said (It is there in the Bible, word by word), this is a kid, not a decent man

          • Peter Ranford

            You were earlier expounding your reason as to why the the poetry of the Quran cannot be translated accurately.
            ” but since any poem can never be translated to another language without losing its originality and effect, Quran surely is done wrong when translated to any other language”
            But I would like to point out that the Quran has a meaning (and Message) this is what needs to be communicated.
            Now do you say this is not possible?

          • YasirDuhham

            Only when you lack intelligence dear, eat bran and the whole world will come out of your butt hole حيوان ما ينفع وياك المنطق

          • pobjoy

            There seems to be sensitivity to, and alarm at, the idea that the Qur’an contains comments that are deliberately ambiguous. It’s an idea that readers may wish to pursue.

          • YasirDuhham

            Abdullah Yusuf is one certified translator of Quran, but since any poem can never be translated to another language without losing its originality and effect, Quran surely is done wrong when translated to any other language: The following page tells you why, in examples :

            https://www.quora.com/Which-is-the-best-English-translation-and-transliteration-of-the-Quran
            Say, “son of a gun”, when translated to Arabic or else,literal translation would be very funny. You need to come up with a saying or expression that resembles it in meaning, but once again, you can’t do a Hi-Fi job here.

          • YasirDuhham

            He had mentioned the text as it is , to get a translation it is there on the web, go get it if you are skeptic

          • pobjoy

            He had mentioned the text as it is

            He mentioned a translation, and translations are consistently refused as legitimate authorities by supposed Islamic authorities (though of course, there is no such thing as a legitimate Islamic authority). But even if the original, Arabic text was available and comprehended, why would it be worth reading? There are native Arabic speakers who say that there is no good reason to learn the language of the Qur’an. So why is there good reason to learn Arabic?

          • YasirDuhham

            4th time in a row you are repeating it, you are a typical Muttee

        • YasirDuhham

          It was about Abdullah Bin Ubay, the chief of the Munafiqeen (Hypocrites) when he died but his son ( a Muslim) tried to grant his father the forgiveness through wrapping his body with a shirt of the prophet, or even asking the prophet to pray for him and ( mediate with God to have mercy on his soul). It is a customized case, not relevant to Christians and Jews ,not now not before.

    • http://atoryblog.blogspot.com Man in a Shed

      Surely you should post the references for say the top 10 ? ( 100 might be going on a bit – but you could hold those in reserve ). Or is there a problem with listing them openly ?

    • chocksaway

      Yes we know islam is a peaceful religion but try telling that to the family’s of the victims of the Paris attacks or the bombed Russian jetliner,or how about the British holidaymakers gunned down on the beach in Tunisia.

  • Ismail Latiff

    I have no problem with listing them.
    15:85 And the hour is surely coming (when this will be manifest). So overlook (any human faults) with gracious forgiveness.

    13:60 But verily your Lord is full forgiveness for mankind for their wrong doings
    12:98 He said; ” Soon will i ask my Lord for forgiveness for you: for He is indeed Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful

    Yes, I can go on and on but I really need to give only one to prove that Canon White is ignorant of the Quran and should not crticise that which he has no knowledge of.
    However, if the ‘Spectator’ will give me a section of a page then I will list all and prove that the Quran has many ‘forgiving’ verses – not only for the muslim believers but for mankind in general. Islam do not condenm other religion and the Quran teaches us to respect all religion and faiths.

    iSIS do not follow any of the islamic teachings and have no right to quote anything from the Quran and Canon White is that ignorant to accept Quranic quotes from those barbaric hooligans who claimed to be muslims. Would you take a Bible quote seriously from a person who has no knowledge of the Bible?

    • Peter Ranford

      @Ismail Latiff. I have read a couple of different Engllish translations of the Quran and from cover to cover a few times. I tend to agree with the sentiment that you do not see any forgiveness professed for the Kafir by Allah. Of the three verses you quote, two are from the Meccan Quran and the third 13:60 I was unable to find.( Sura 13 finishes at verse 43 ) We need to note the context for example 12:98 Is relating to the story of Joseph (quranic version) and not at all instruction for Muslims or a profession of forgiveness to Kufar of Mohammad’s day. You may like to quote some Medina verses that in context are direct professions of forgiveness of the Kufar (and unrepentant rejector of Allah) or an instruction for Muslims to forgive unconditionally Non Muslims. I think you will find this a tough assignment.

      • Ambientereal

        You forgive someone when that someone has sinned. The key word should not be forgiveness but tolerance. Is it a sin (in islam) not to be muslim? Have the human beings (muslim or not) the right to punish someone for his beliefs (or the lack of them)? The religions should tell the believers that everyone has a right to his beliefs, in fact most religions do, but not islam. That´s why muslim (imams included) take the justice in their hands and respect only their own law (sharia). The disrespect to human life and the intolerance and condemnation to other beliefs, is deep rooted in islam and that´s why they don´t hesitate in harming others for theological reasons. That´s why I believe islam is not a religion of peace and will never be.

        • Peter Ranford

          Much do I agree

    • Peter Ranford

      YUSUF ALI 9:60

      Whether thou ask for their forgiveness, or not, (their sin is unforgivable): if thou ask seventy times for their forgiveness, Allah will not forgive them: because they have rejected Allah and His Messenger: and Allah guideth not those who are perversely rebellious.

      • YasirDuhham

        This one was descended (revealed) for a particular instant, about the so-called (Munafiqeen= hypocrites who were part of Medina citizens , they pretended to be Muslims but were idolators deep within, according to God who knows whatever one hides most, and according to their support for Meccan pagans, that is why Allah is addressing Mohammad in a way that tells you Mohammad might be willing to ask for forgiveness to them because he as a human being knows nothing about intentions of others.It was speaking of Abdullah Bin Ubay, who had just died at the time of revelation of it and his son ( a believer, unlike his father) asked Mohammad to wrap his father in Mohammad’s shirt, as if to grant him some chance of forgiveness.

    • Ambientereal

      Stop lying. Islam is a lie, all religions are, and gods doesn´t exists. Fact is that in all mosques imams tell young people to hate and to go join ISIS. In islamic families women are subservient to the men. No one respect human rights (but ask for them when in trouble) Al islam is a lie.

      • YasirDuhham

        Use a refrigerated suppository, your piles are going to blast open, we will prevail even if you all unite against us, it is time for us to reign,be sure of it

        • nutsingha

          Use your brain (oops, you are a certified brainwashed muslim kaffir-hating nutso, so you don’t have one!). Time to stop the hating, and actually face facts – the west is infinitely superior in every facet of human life (peacefulness, altruism, standard of living, science, technology, innovation and freedom). You all want to come here because we are better, and practically all your muslim brothers and sister live [begging] off our taxes in the west. It causes great consternation I’m sure, as it conflicts with your ridiculous superiority complex. You and your religion are morally and ethically inferior, as well as inferior in almost every other aspect of life. Get over it, and get over your book of b@llshit and lies, written by your 6th century pedophile warmonger.

          • YasirDuhham

            Use the same prescription , repeat every half an hour, refrigerated, remember it well, otherwise it will smear your orifice

          • YasirDuhham

            Your healer is here again to double-check, did you use the refrigerated suppository? If you find difficulty let your blind wife hold it horizontally, use to side mirrors of a vehicle, each in hand, and reverse back making use of the mirrors, I know that you are a truck driver ,

          • YasirDuhham

            Loser, major loser

        • Ambientereal

          You can´t even beat tiny Israel. Without oil you are nothing. Did you know that muslim have more rights in Israel than in islamic countries?

  • YasirDuhham

    Mr Vicar of Baghdad, checkmate ! The following ‘Aayas talk about forgiveness, preach about it and promote it, even with people who are not Muslims, even with gay people , next time you want to speak about Quran consult me in the least before you regret it: ( As Sura No./ ‘Aaya No. : 2/54, 2/160,3/31, 3/135, 4/16, 4/17, 4/18,
    4/48, 4/64, 4/116 ,5/39, 5/111, 7/155 , 8/29 , 9/27, 9/ 97 till 104,
    9/106, 9/113, 11/3, 11/61 , 11/90 , 16/110, 16/119, 20/82 , 24/22 ,
    25/71, 28/16, 33/24, 33/35 , 33/ 70-71 , 39/53 , 46/31 , 57/28 ,
    61/10-11-12 , 71/3-4 )

    • Peter Ranford

      To get an idea how disingenuous this list take 9/27 but read from verse 26 to 29

      26/But Allah did pour His calm on the Messenger and on the Believers, and sent down forces which ye saw not: He punishes the UNBELIEVERS; thus doth He reward those without Faith.

      27/Again will Allah, AFTER THIS, turn (in mercy) to WHOM He will: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.
      28/O ye who believe! Truly the Pagans are unclean; so let them not, after this year of theirs, approach the Sacred Mosque. And if ye fear poverty, soon will Allah enrich you, if He wills, out of His bounty, for Allah is All-knowing, All-wise

      29/Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.

      • YasirDuhham

        The sequence that you have picked looks as if they are 3 ‘Aayas that had been descended altogether, which is not like that. The first one ( 9/26) and the one proceeding it ( 9/25) are correlated both in time and unity of subject since they both judge those pagans who fought against Muslims in ( Hunain Fight) in the 8th year after Hejira. The next one ( 9/27) is a totally separate thing, it was descended in the 9th year after Hejira and it talk or judges the pagans in Mecca since it is banning them from attending Mecca . And it is not ( Mohammad and friends, they were the Muslims who lined up with Mohammad, bringing them with Mohammad means that it is a general judgement, for Mohammad it concerns his very case of seeking forgiveness on behalf of his long deceased uncle (or mother too) , while each Muslim is to abide by its meanings for his/her on relatives, likewise. Quran is very punctual , the language is a must when there is an argument about the meaning, this or that, but for you to have an idea of Islam, you can resort to an English translation and have enough with that. My list still mutes the Vicar and his God too( the Trinity !)

      • YasirDuhham

        The jizya that Christians & Jews under Islamic reign are supposed to pay is nothing but the tax that your countries impose on its citizens, it spares their lives from joining wars, if it were any big problem they would not have favored staying under Islam reign and might have headed for Roma in stead, or Spain !

      • YasirDuhham

        I replied to that, still can’t find it here. A whole year separates one ‘Aaya from the other. One talks about the pagans who fought Mohammad in (Hunain ),the other is about seizing Mecca, a year later. The first ‘Aaya or Sura to read in Quran is never the first one Mohammad received from Gabriel, and the last ‘Aaya(or Sura too) is never the last relayed to him.

    • Peter Ranford

      And this one?
      9/113
      It is not fitting, for the Prophet and those who believe, that they should pray for forgiveness for Pagans, even though they be of kin, after it is clear to them that they are companions of the Fire.
      I paraphrase
      Mohammad and friends, don’t ask Allah to forgive your family if thay are holding out against Allah.

      • YasirDuhham

        You are bringing an opposite thing here as I am presuming, but I am committed to falsifying the Vicar’s own accusation(as the title of the editorials says). If one had accused Quran of being too tolerant I would have brought these Aayas ! Recalling how the Deity offered a peaceful mission through Jesus Christ and his kin, John, one would easily understand why Mohammad came with the olive branch in hand and the sword in the other hand, otherwise he would have been crucified like Jesus Christ too. If a software engineer is up to upgrading the existing program and offering remedies for faulty gaps that the application went through, isn’t it the same for the Deity? Or should He just repeat it, with His prophets and messengers killed always in every which way? And who caused the killing of Jesus Christ(according to the Biblical tale)? Wasn’t it Jews & Roman authority there? Needless to say, they have a sin that needs to be punished , for justice sake in the least. This very ‘Aaya talks about the prophet’s uncle, Abu Talib, who albeit had supported Mohammad and patronized him against that uncle’s vicious brothers, he still couldn’t break free from paganism and did not agree to convert to Islam. Mohammad was denied forgiveness of that uncle, you need to consider the reasons of descending any ‘Aaya, Some scholars said it was Mohammad’s mother that he was denied the Deity’s forgiveness but she died long before Islam was born, hence the uncle is more liable to be the subject of this ‘Aaya

        • YasirDuhham

          I should be adding this thing. I myself wouldn’t consider this Aaya to be harassing to you, for instance , because the case of Mohammad’s uncle and all those pagans mentioned there or in any other text like it are different from you. They witnessed the start of the mission, met the prophet, had their chance to judge whether he is eligible for that great mission or not, and they used to worship statues thinking those statues are means to satisfy the Deity( whom the recognized still but were convinced that offering money and fortunes to the priests patronizing those temples means satisfying the Deity and scoring his approval. It was all about the authority of those temples priests.

      • YasirDuhham

        Mohammad asked for forgiveness ( for his uncle that raised him but still declined reverting to Islam ), he was denied that privilege. It is about ( no one is special), because his uncle witnessed everything, unlike you and me living in a later later time, so he had chosen his way with God, that he still worships idols like his fellow folks who were called (Mushrikeen) because they recognized God as a Heavenly creator, but favored to (include) other idols as intermediary between them and God. Again, it is a script judging one very specific incident.

  • Ismail Latiff

    Yes, I would like to express my sincere condolence to the families of the Paris victims BUT would also wish to inform them that their government supported the US in suppling money and ammunitions to the Fee Syrian army rebels and the Al-queda Al Nusra group; and even trained them at a cost of $500 millions plus. The weapons that were used in Paris came from Libya that was ruthlessly bombed by UK, France and USA, illegally, and its unruly now. Similar applies to all other attacks as you mentioned. That blood that was on the Paris street was from the hands of President Hollande. Maybe you should watched WEARECHANGE and INFOWARS on Youtube. It gives you a better picture of who the criminals are. AND you may also ask yourself why Russia has done more damage to ISIS in one month than US and Allies did in one year!!?
    YES, ISLAM IS A PEACEFUL RELIGION. I dislike associating wars with religion since i do not believe that wars have anything to do with religion, but of greed. But if you wish to perceived it that way, than i would like to point out that the wars and choas in the middle east were started by George Bush, a christian, and her Christain Allies . Bush even said that he had a vision from above that its proper to attack Saddam!! Bush claimed that Saddam tortured/kill 80,000 kurds but Bush killed more than double innocent iraqi civilians that subsequently caused the birth of iSIS!!
    So PLEASE keep religion out. It demonstrates ignorance. Thanks

    • Bonnie W

      It’s always someone else’s responsibility isn’t it? Those dirty kuffar made them do it.

    • Andropov

      YES, ISLAM IS A PEACEFUL RELIGION, are you crazy? Islam is a work of Satan and never be peaceful religion.

      • Ambientereal

        Islam is not a religion in the first place. Islam is a theocratic form of government. A bloody way to gather power invented by bloody criminals. That´s why believers are allowed to “impose” the law to other and to punish them. Muslim feel they have the right to punish infidels and that is VIOLENCE of the worst form.

    • Richard

      You see, Ismail, those of us from Africa have seen Muslims practising slavery to this very day. There are imams around, but slavery still goes on in those Islamic areas. That is not a peaceful way to live amongst black Africans. Many convert to Islam so that they will be treated better by their slave-masters. It is done through fear.

      • YasirDuhham

        What about Rwanda ,Richard? was it all because of Muslims or that church ? What about you Africans killing each other while there is no Muslim around you?

        • Richard

          The point was about Islam, not about inter-tribal African fighting. Rwanda had nothing to do with Christianity, but Islam does condone slavery, as you know. Muslims keep many, many slaves, and the non-Muslim ones they treat very, very badly. No Muslims ever complain about this, or care enough to bring it to anybody’s attention. Therefore, Islam obviously approves. As such, it cannot be a peaceful religion.

          • YasirDuhham

            It was rage church there that was involved with hate speech and handing over the victims that hid there ! As for slavery I do not approve of it nor my religion does , but it is a way of life whenever there are wars, and I had watched a brutal documentary of your people when they targeted Arabs in Madagascar if I am not mistaken, hundreds of Arabs killed using swords and rifles as they were fleeing that country. The much I despise and hate slavery, in any form, the much I hated your people for that barbarian vengeance. Alternately, USA was not Muslim when your people were carried in thousands from Africa to America, and if Islam was the reason or promoter of it like you are claiming here, not Black Panthers would have been there, no Mohammad Ali reverting to Islam, and that Elijah and Malcolm X, and all Muslim African Americans like Lewis Farakhan, they be real fools if they follow the religion that “enslaved” them with its teachings ! Islam made the penalty (Kuffarah) of swearing and failing to fulfill it, missing to fast in Ramadhan, and other felonies , made it (to liberate a slave ), tell me what did Christianity offer you in contrast? Who treated you more badly, Muslims or Americans ? I tend to line up with you in your grief for slavery, but I also see that you are biased , sparing Americans all the way .

          • Richard

            Arabs were the biggest slave traders and slavers in history. Look at the Corsairs, who abducted over 1.5 million Europeans for the Ottoman Empire, where white slaves were particularly sought-after. This continues to this day with Muslims in Africa. Other people fought to end the slave trade, much to the chagrin of Muslims, who were unhappy for it to stop.

            What certain black Americans did is neither here nor there. Black Americans also believe the Egyptians were black, which they weren’t. History stands by itself, for all to see.

            I am less interested in the past than by what is going on today. Islam is encroaching further and further south through violence. That is a fact. Non-Muslims are being enslaved by Muslims. That is a fact. There is no Islamic opposition to any of this. That is a fact.

          • YasirDuhham

            I agree with what you said, it is there but like we say in Islam, Not in My Name, I never approve of slavery ,not for any cause

          • YasirDuhham

            In Iraq we don’t have any ties with enslaving people, too many Arab peoples do like us ,you are generalizing the accusation here as if we are Omanis or Saudis. My friend we do not resemble those arrogant people.

          • YasirDuhham

            Not only African have their tribal motives for wars and occupation may be, Muslims/Arabs wage wars for all reasons EXCEPT religion itself, take Iraq and Kuwait, Egypt under Jamal Abdul Nasir & Yemen, Morocco & Algeria, Iraq & Syria long before Bashar was there, Syria & Lebanon, Palestinians & HKJ, Palestinians & Christians of Lebanon( not about religion at all). It is a dominant trend to attribute all shortcomings to Islam, but Islam is not Muslims my dear , they are very different . Serbs were massacring Bosnians on religious basis, there is a huge difference here,, G. W. Bush launched his 2003 war against my country and called it a Crusade, this is a Christian war crime, Israel killing people in Gaza both for religious motives and national (racial) motives too !

    • Thaddeus lovelock

      The US has not supported Al, Nusrah, or Al Qada , linked groups in Syria. It has given some limited support to the free Syrian army, on the grounds that it is a relatively secular group.

    • Goinlike Billio

      It is a civil war between muslims.

    • Thaddeus lovelock

      Why is Islam producing all these extremist groups.? There are so many extremist groups that justify themselves in terms of Islam and Islamic concepts like Jihad. ? And why are so many Muslims joining them.? There could be no Jihadists if there was no ideological basis for them within Islam? And there is an ideological basis, for them, based on Koranic scripture, Haddiths, and the example of Muhammad. And that’s how the extremist Muslims see it.

      • Ambientereal

        There is no “muslim extremist” there is only muslim. All of them profess the idea of imposing their religion by violence and punishing the sinners by violence. There is no “peaceful” muslim. There are only muslim driven by their religion´s blood lust.

        • Thaddeus lovelock

          I think it is a bit more complex than that. I think there are peaceful Muslims. But I would not call Islam, peaceful, I’m not sure any religion is. However it does have some peaceful elements. I would say Islam is composed of peaceful, and violent elements. And it is up to Muslims to deemphasize and neutralize the violent aspects of their religion. If they do that Islam is likely to be considerably more peaceful than it currently is. That’s just my opinion of course.

          • Ambientereal

            Not every muslim takes a weapon to kill infidels but every muslim celebrates when terrorists kill infidels.

          • YasirDuhham

            I do rejoice for it but not for the religious theme of it, it is because that “infidel” as you call him had been doing people wrong for too long, unless he was a clean victim, for which case I refer to ours in all those wars and aerial bombarding, your governments would call it ( Collateral Damage), as if they were buildings or cars, not human beings!

          • YasirDuhham

            Now let us switch roles , with me commenting ” Not every Christian and/or European is an assassin, but when Muslims are being massacred in Myanmar ,Iraq, Syria, China, Nigeria, Iran,Bosnia-Herzegovina, Palestine and Chechnya, down to the farthest reachable zone on earth ,EVERY Christian is very happy about it ” ! I hope that you have enough brains to figure it and see your image in this mirror I made ! Only a Jackass speaks on behalf of others and presumes he is there in a multi-thousand places knowing whatever is said in every mosque, and knowing what ALL Muslims are thinking of ! I am reconsidering the “Oscar Goes to” paragraph, it is you this time ! Line up with the blind Vicar who had read Quran and found no forgiveness at all, you too are one pair of a kind !

          • Ambientereal

            Can you prove it? Have you seen celebrations in Paris, London or somewhere after those killings?

          • YasirDuhham

            No it is not real, I was just showing you how it is not logical to presume that we know what millions of people have on their mind. Actually, on both sides there are people who do not resort to abhor and they favor accepting diversity

          • YasirDuhham

            Those who celebrate have an unresolved issue, feelings of gloating are always there when one is done wrong too many times and he/they have no way of evening it

          • YasirDuhham

            Losing my electricity in a minute, BRB tomorrow

          • YasirDuhham

            No it is not real, I was just showing you how it is not logical to
            presume that we know what millions of people have on their mind.
            Actually, on both sides there are people who do not resort to abhor and
            they favor accepting diversity

          • Ambientereal

            You see? I do have proof, from Pakistan, Iran, Gaza, and so on., Have you ever heard a western politician to say hate speeches like the Iran leader Khamenei said? “Israel will be destroyed within 25 years’: Iranian supreme leader issues chilling warning to ‘Zionists’ – and rejects talks with ‘Great Satan’ U.S. beyond its nuclear deal” He did a good deal and soon thereafter he bites his (supposedly) friend? You see?, all muslims are violent liars.

          • YasirDuhham

            You are mistaken twice here. Iranians are not Muslims, they are fanatic Persian Shiites having a totally different understanding of Islam , customized to revere a certain dynasty of the prophet’s descendants ( grand sons down to grand grand grand sons) as if idols, while Islam came originally not to fight Christianity or Judaism but to erase and eradicate idols and pagan styles. They believe that dead idols still can help them get healed when sick, improve their income and allow them to Eden after death, no matter what God is up to or what is it that they have indulged with of sins and offenses . They are as notorious as Zionists, both trying to seize the Islamic and Arab homeland based on a fable or a myth ,a Deity promise !! Your yet grander mistake is never understanding why Pakistanis ,Gaza people and almost more than half of the Muslim population rejoice for your sad events, it is because you are the reason why they are robbed of their natural wealth that Allah bestowed on their countries, stealing their oil, aiding the tyrant dictators ruling over them, etc etc etc . Your culture always ridicules Muslims for their (Fatalism) perspective of the events occurring around them, claiming that you base your analysis on ( Cause & Effect), but when it comes to these rejoicing feelings of Palestinians and Pakistanis & Arabs in general you seem so senile about the Cause & Effect idea that you keep forgetting like Michael McDonald sings (Why The Heck Do They Hate US), that stupid question ! Stop doing them wrong and they will stop hating you, got it?

          • Ambientereal

            You have confirmed to me my initial idea. “all muslim are violent liars”

          • YasirDuhham

            Some Guys Never Learn ! You asked, I replied, as simple as that. It is quite appealing for you to generalize, although a wise man did you a favor and advised you ( ” …… I gave you good counsel, but ye love
            not good counsellors!”) just like Quran says! Grow Up, for God’s Sake !

          • YasirDuhham

            All Israeli politicians are as disgusting as Ayatollah, all Right Wing American politicians are full of racism and hate, all Russian politicians are heartless,greedy and hypocrite, all French politicians and leaders except Jacques Chirac are silly and worthless, Tony Blair is a criminal , Margaret Thatcher was a very spiteful criminal who contributed to killing Iraqis with her mule-like decisions , what more do you need?

          • Ambientereal

            You see?, all muslims are violent liars.

          • YasirDuhham

            I responded to your query, be a sportsman and take it easy Ya Azizi

          • YasirDuhham

            I replied to it, don’t know why the admin hides it? I was giving you an example in the same style you used. Not all Muslims, nor all Christians or Jews can be accused of one mode of thinking, we are all very much variable from our folks

          • YasirDuhham

            Most of what Christians & Jews of the west are worried about ( of what Quran has as a text or scripture) is not about them. They read it now and presume it is talking about them ( since they are not Muslim). In fact Quran was descended (revealed) in parts, most of them according to a specific context at that time and place, so the warning and wrath there is all about specific people contemporary to the prophet and that context. I have no idea if you had ever cotemplated the following ‘Aayas which are the ones relevant to you as Christians or Jews : ( 3/199: And there are, certainly, among the People of the Book, those who believe
            in Allah, in the revelation to you, and in the revelation to them, bowing in
            humility to Allah: They will not sell the Signs of Allah for a miserable gain!
            For them is a reward with their Lord, and Allah is swift in account. ) and ( 3/84 : Say: “We believe in Allah, and in what has been revealed to us and what was
            revealed to Abraham, Isma’il, Isaac, Jacob, and the Tribes, and in [the Books]
            27
            given to Moses, Jesus, and the prophets, from their Lord: We make no distinction
            between one and another among them, and to Allah do we bow our will [in Islam].”) and ( 2/62 : Those who believe [in the Qur’an], and those who follow the Jewish
            [scriptures], and the Christians and the Sabians,- any who believe in Allah and
            the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord;
            on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve. )

          • YasirDuhham

            Muslims are the ones who greet any passerby “Al Salam Alaykum, i.e, Peace Be Yours ” , whether they are acknowledged of that stranger or not, so we had been instructed. Peaceful is Islam but never feeble, you would be trying the dark side of the moon when you occupy, do them wrong or offend them. Islam had always been about 2 facets, you yourself decide what facet to receive, if you do them good they would repay it even several folds or more,. if you do them wrong it is just what you will be receiving, fair is fair, and Islam had never been a religion that would let an enemy crucify its prophet or any Muslim ,it is a positive theology, best fit for life not for despair and defeat on a wooden cross . It brings us back to that question” Do Christians Offer The Other Cheek If I Smack Them on One?”, does that Biblical rule work fine for any believer in Jesus Christ ? Had any Christian ever applied it like it says ? I have brought more than 20 statements of forgiveness here on this page, I am challenging you all to offer a similar score, whether from your old or new testament ! Quoting Gustave Le Bon : “Islam, from among all religions, best suits the science discoveries and
            is the most ready to edify souls and force them to abide by justice,
            kindness and toleration.” & “Muhammad was a man of noble manners, wisdom, kindheartedness, compassion, mercy, truthfulness and trustworthiness.”. & “It is attributed to Bacon, in general, that he was the first to hold
            experiment and observation, the pillars of the modern scientific
            methodology, in the position of the instructor. But it should be
            recognized today that all this was the work of the Arabs alone – an
            opinion opted for by all scholars who studied the Arab writings.”. Just a little of a hefty amount of testimonies from every great thinker.

        • Richard Baranov

          You know, instead of making ridiculous statements that make it clear you don’t know what you are talking about, why not go and study? I have, for the last 40 years but I am not a Muslim, I’m not even sympathetic to Islam but these ridiculous statements, not only coming from you but, it seems, the great majority, are the result of hysteria, ignorance, and irrationality, and it is bloody tedious. If you want to defeat the enemy, andenemy Islam is, then you need to learn and understand.

          Two thirds of the worlds population are Muslims. Do you seriously think it has been such a success because of unrelenting violence? A bit of thought should make that clear that it would be an utter failure if that was the case, a society would not be possible for all the negatives that you and people like you heap on Islam. It is childish, unproductive and a dead end for people to continually make such statements, especially when they are contradicted at every turn. Don’t you think that ordinary Muslims know you’re talking rubbish? They know because for every silly statement theycan point to another that makes nonsense of your claim. I do not want Islam to impose itself on the West but in order for that not to happen, people need to learn in a rational fashion and then go for it. Yes, all this negativity might make everyone feel better, but so do drugs, big deal, both produce complacency and a lack of desire to inquire further. Meanwhile, the superiority complex that produces your silliness is the thing which will destroy the West, to arrogant to learn and consequentially, to easy to destroy.

          Peopleneed to become more knowledgeable and then start organizing, discussing, and implementing practical solutions because all your sort of nonsense consists of is ‘pizsing in the wind’. You end up, stinking, looking foolish, and useless.

          • Ambientereal

            Two thirds of the worlds population are Muslims? And you mean you are “informed”? The only information I need is the fact that when terrorists kill in the west “all” muslim celebrate in the east, and that in every mosque everywhere in the world (including europe) the imam teaches hate and more hate.

          • Richard Baranov

            You are so profoundly ignorant as to be useless. Wilful ignorance is not a virtue and, further more, it is destructive, more so to you than your opponents.

          • Richard Baranov

            It is supposed to be 23%, so I corrected the error. But it makes no difference at all concerning your attitude. Profound ignorance is not flattering, it is stupid. It will kill you in the end, not them.

          • YasirDuhham

            Bless you for the righteous comment. With this commentator it gets like you are reading a statement to an audience , one that included ( Reward for those who do THIS list of acts, and Punishment for those who commit THAT list of acts), and there is one like this very Ambientereal who is never into any of those 2 lists, but he deliberately commits THAT list and yell at you” You are a terrorist, anti-Semitic, full of hate, and you had been targeting me in specific ! I myself have 2 ways of response, it depends on the comments I read, and once I find them hysterical and predetermined on hatred and ignorance, well, what do you think I would be doing? It is all his own fault

      • YasirDuhham

        It is because they had been done wrong. USA &UK toppled a secular regime and allowed a sick theological regime to take over, they spread killing and terrorizing people as ethnic cleansing, rape and sodomy in prisons, militias ruling in stead of an army and police, hundreds of thousands( hundreds of thousands !!) of innocent people locked in prisons with eyes plucked out and bones drilled, what do you expect but a revolution? If the west had refrained way from it nothing would have been there, no Alqaeda nor IS, it is the continued support of the filthy government that is fueling all this turmoil and violence

        • iand

          But 9/11 was before all that, but I agree about us meddling in the Middle East

          • YasirDuhham

            9/11 is an inside job, no sensible engineer is ever convinced that the twin towers would collapse that way unless it is Thermite used inside the towers. USA punished Iraq, and all this raging violence is due to that. Lately the Bush clan admitted that it was a plot and Iraq had no ties with Alqaeda nor WMD left, so it is time for paying for it, no wonder

          • Thaddeus lovelock

            You have point, America’s miscalculation in invading Iraq, gave these groups an opening. However that does not explain the existence of these Islamist groups. There is something in the culture that is conducive to these types of groups,

          • YasirDuhham

            It is because we are dropping the other motive that I myself see as justified, it is the fact that there is another theocracy that had contributed massively to the both creating these groups and to their violence, it is the so-called Islamic Republic of Iran, which is a fanatic clerical regime that is all about devouring the whole middle east, did you ever consider this effect?

          • Thaddeus lovelock

            The first attack on the world trade centre was in 1993, if I remember correctly.

          • YasirDuhham

            Timothy McFae if I am not mistaken with typing, a radical Christian, they blamed it instantly on Bosnian Muslims, turned out an internal job,as usual

          • Thaddeus lovelock

            You are thinking of the Oklahoma bombing, which was perpetrated by a right wing extremists. Anyway, America’s at times highly flawed foreign policy should not be used to deny the nature of radical Islamists. The fact is Islamist ideology lends itself to messianic terrorism, very easily. Messianic, terrorism is a global problem within Islam. It has afflicted many western countries, but also seems to Plague most Muslim countries to some extent .Pakistan, India, Indonesia, Afghanistan, Libya , Tunisia, Morocco, Iraq, Syria, Lebanon, Egypt, Algeria, have all been victims of Messianic terrorism. So there is an obvious pattern. I think all these terrorist groups reflect the deep pathological dysfunction in Islamist politics.

          • YasirDuhham

            Yes in deed, because that one was blamed first of all on Muslims too, the WTC issue of 1993 is not to my knowledge, I apologize for that. As for the rest of your comment I tend to agree with you but I differentiate between an action and a reaction. I believe that the best way to abort all this violence is through dealing with the primer issue, but the west does not seem willing to do so, considering what is there in Iraq in the least

          • Thaddeus lovelock

            But BIn Laden admitted responsibility for September 11.

          • YasirDuhham

            ِArchitects & Engineers for 9/11 Truth : https://www.facebook.com/ae911truth/?fref=nf

          • Thaddeus lovelock

            If you believe 9/11 was an inside job, then you belong to a special category of people. Not even Noam Chomsky believes that.

          • YasirDuhham

            It is a 100% American issue, that is one thing that is indisputable, you and your folks know more on it than me, but the link I provided for you *Architects & Engineers for 9/11 Truth” is an American organization, they are pro-science and I as a military man and mechanical engineer find that opinion appealing to me, otherwise none of those who were engaged with it was an Iraqi fellow, in fact Bin Laden was a friend of Bush family, so after all is said and done my country had nothing to do with it but still, we were punished for it just like Palestinians were robbed of their country whereas Germany was the true perpetrator ! Don’t you find it weird? Punishing the wrong guys, and what a capital punishment !

      • YasirDuhham

        It is not Islam, it is the fact that all Islamic/Arab regimes are feeble and puppets to USA & UK that the alternative is an organization, they already are enemies to their own governments, so they are labelled as terrorists no matter what

        • Thaddeus lovelock

          I think it’s an exaggeration to say, all current Islamic, Arab regimes are puppets of the US. However even if this is so, the withdrawal, of American support, for these regimes would not necessarily, lead to an improvement. It may instead lead to the destabilisation of those, societies , fragmentation, civil War. Or it may lead to rule by fundamentalist theocrats. The overthrow of the Old guard Arab rulers during the Arab spring, did not lead to an improvement. So it’s simplistic to see all the political, economic and societal, challenges of the Muslim / Arab world , as stemming from American Influence. A country like Pakistan is a good example, it is facing a Islamic, fundamentalist time bomb.

          • YasirDuhham

            Never an exaggeration, not after all those interventions of the west had been archived in books that I read here with titles and dates , we have a saying that goes like ( Meccans are the most acknowledged ones of its routes)! I am talking about how UK & USA intervened in Iraq right after the monarchy was ousted late fifties passed, how they fueled the Iraqi-Iranian 8 yrs war, I was in UK in 1983 and met with their IMS that was the (secret agency to sell weapons to countries at war with each other since your laws prohibit the MoD of doing so, IMS had all retired staff generals ! If you approve of intervening in other countries for whatever reason that you convince yourself with, then IS has the full right to target you based on almost similar reasons ! USA & UK had their hands in all Arab countries, that is a factoid my dear. And the things you see re Arab Spring is the result of letting those puppets rule for 3-5 decades, even more with KSA & HKJ, it is a filthy legacy that did breed chaos and violence as a must, try it yourself (Invade Wall Street or Broadway may be !) and see what comes out of the ruling gang ! You Ain’t Seen Nothing Yet

          • Thaddeus lovelock

            The Justification, given for the Paris, attacks was that they were revenge for the west, bombing Isis, and because Paris was a bastion of sin and immorality. These are not grievances that sound reasonable. We have little choice but to confront Isis. They will confront us eventually, anyway. If ever a group deserved to be bombed it’s this group of unhinged Psychopaths, who cut the heads off aid workers.

          • YasirDuhham

            How many aid workers lost their lives ? So far I mean, including journalists too?

          • YasirDuhham

            I am not the one to reply to this one. I care for parts where Christians or Atheists claim untrue things about my religion, just that. My status of all these events is not for others to know or discuss, cause it wouldn’t do us any good, we are just names and accounts, what to believe? Whom to follow or trust ?

          • YasirDuhham
          • Thaddeus lovelock

            The violence of Isis is ideologically driven it is not a response to foreign interventions. The USA has actually been out of Iraq for a while. Isis are attempting to implement the Caliphate. They have been very clear about this. They are intoxicated on fantasies of creating an Islamic theocratic superstate that will challenge the power of the west. And Spread Islam throughout the world. Read their Propaganda. The Islamist narrative cultivates a sense of grievance which is a central feature of the Islamist identity. Islamists will never acknowledge that the USA, Intervened militarily on behalf of the Muslim Kosovo, Albanians, and prevented their Genocide. The USA, was also instrumental in pressuring the Bosian, Serbs, to make peace. These facts don’t tally with the Islamist narrative. As they don’t fuel the necessary sense of victimhood. The Islamist perspective is impressive. It denies that groups like Isis have anything to with Islam while simultaneously arguing that the west deserves the bloodshed. While I have often been against foreign intervention in the Muslim world. And actually marched at anti- War demonstrations in the past. The fact is that Islamist Ideology is to a large extent inherently anti- western. And always has been. Another apologist for Isis. Good on you. You deserve them.

          • YasirDuhham

            Why do you feel like a loser whenever the talk is bugging you with righteous facts? All those hideous massacres in Bosnia and you are bragging like a little scout that USA “prohibited the genocide” so Muslims have to bow in front of your country and may be worship it in stead of God? Why didn’t USA intervene loooooong before all those people face the Serbs sadism and cruelty ?What good did it do the victims and their families? You are crying and wailing like a widow for aid workers whom IS killed, do you know how many Iraqis were killed by US army and urged IS to revenge ? I bet you have no idea ! Do you have any goddamned idea how many millions were displaced because of your assassin USA? Do you understand what is it to hand Iraq to Iran? What is an aid worker worth compared to millions for whom all of you went muted and still are ? Can you establish any figurative comparison between 1,5,10 and 1000000 ? Did I mention IS or praise them such that you use it to support your sick logic since you all try to terrorize us with this frame ? Have you ever been to Iraq and meet the victims families to best understand your country’s major sin ? Apparently,You have no respect for a whole Iraqi people ,but you dare to ask me to sympathize with a few victims here and there and forget about my own people’s wounds ! Your folks tracked Gaddafi for decades, for some 270 victims, and forced him to indemnify, did your country, church,congress,media,..etc or you in particular consider the ample indemnifications for a country that had been fragmented,sold in auction to mongrels from Iran all because of you ? What is the use of you marching stupidly demonstrating like any big mouth that just blablablas and is back to bed in an hour ? Did your government respect you and abide by whatever you were howling there? Did your democracy do you or us Iraqis any good? Would it save your a** from God on Judgement Day? Like the quote of Mohammad says: You see a little dirt in our eyes and act as a blind for a clot of blood in your own eyes, cause you deliberately “pick” this and disregard that !

          • Thaddeus lovelock

            My point is that Militant, Islamists are selective when they judge America. They filter reality through the demands of an Islamist ideological imperative. The USA in 1999 intervened militarily on behalf, of a Muslim minority and against a Christian country. And averted the genocide and ethnic, cleansing of about one million Albanians, by Serbs. This is something that no Muslim, country would ever do. I can’t see any Muslim government ever intervening on behalf of besieged Christian minorities, and against a Muslim state. It certainly is not happening now that your Isis buddies are massacring and cleansing Christians from the middle east, by the hundreds of thousands. As for the Bosian, war, either though intervention should have been sooner it was still a positive thing that the USA intervened. And it did help end the War. In Albania, and Kosovo, where Islamist Ideology is not very strong. They love the UK, and the USA. I have no problem admitting that US foreign policy has been at times deeply flawed. The Iraq war was wrong, however a significant degree of the carnage was self- inflicted, through internecine violence, between Shia, and Sunnis. You can bring up the past sins of the USA. However the Ottoman Caliphate was far from blameless in that regard. It conquered the Christian city of Constantinople, (Instanbul) in 1453, massacred Christians, looted the city, and turned the most beautiful Cathedral, (Hagia Sophia) in the Christian world into a Mosque. Furthermore the Ottomans penetrated deep into Europe menacing Europe for hundreds of years. The Dying days of the Ottoman empire would see the genocide of approximately one million Armenians. That’s your beloved Caliphate for you.
            Why are Muslims the only group that still fantasize, about a reborn Empire. Because they have not fully come to terms with their own Imperialist past. Unlike the west. The thing is that deep in Muslim consciousness the Idea of Muslims conquering non-Muslim lands is seen as being God’s will. If you have the read the Koran, Haddiths, and are familiar with Islamic history you will know this.

          • YasirDuhham

            I have no ties with the people you mentioned( militants /radicals), still I agree with you on the following points:
            1. USA did Muslims of Bosnia/Kosovo well (relatively),because it saved the rest but never helped the doomed ones nor did it avenge their massacred lives , it was part of the job needed to earn the savior title, and the way I looked at it by then was that USA intervened all of a sudden to abort the making of a pioneer IS,Jihadists, Islamic Elite Forces,…etc(whatsoever), it was an awakening of an Islamic front that cared to act on behalf of the feeble Arab/Islamic regimes by then, who cared only not to irritate Russia and Serbia, cause if you were watching it by then, USA cleared the Mujahedeen(Arab Afghans) who defended Sarajevo and deterred Serbs from taking it. They left on a jet liner under USA’s supervision, to an anonymous destination ,their faces were half covered , thanks to my live memory !
            2. I am never with Ottomans in their style of ruling, unless they were acting same as the rest of that old world by then, cause when you live in the zoo you are destined to do what the monkeys do. This is why I replied to Peter Ranford, that I consider Islamic conquests as a source of pride , not because I approve of killing or seizing lands, it is a De-Facto thing, the past is done and we can’t help it anymore, I would be pleased to denounce that past in case you all do, who could be doing so? Should we return back to where our grand grandfathers came from? Not feasible nor logical by any means. America itself is based on the same thing, all Americans should go back to Italy,Israel and Ireland(The Three Eye League!!)!
            3. Couldn’t compare USA-Bosnia/Kosovo to any Arab Muslim country because our regimes are the worst, we long to toppling them all while your governments oppose us all the way. Not one Christian was killed in my town, they favored to leave to Kurdistan,I hope that this is understood well, they lost their houses and belongings, but no one was injured or killed, those were the Yezidis, not Christians, and Christians were victims of terrorists in all Iraq, even Shiite militias forded in their blood, but you never get a signal for that.
            4. USA cared much to ignite the Sunni-Shiite carnage in Iraq, it was a way of punishing all Sunnies ,considering the 9/11 thing.I keep reading comments everywhere saying( what did we win out of our “Sunnie” friends except havoc and terror?).US army is known to have been putting road side bombs, we have at least one clip showing them descending from a Humvee and doing it . I myself met with a patrol and the mariner there was yelling hysterically ” We have some plan for this country, if you only knew of it!” ,and I myself can offer plenty of events to let you be acknowledged of what those bad guys out of a whole army were up to by then.
            5. The Serbs “avenged” their old defeats but targeting the wrong people, it means that a native American is free to shoot you in the head because General Custer massacred his grand grandfather ! No way one can justify the Orthodox Christian crimes in Bosnia.
            6. I know of Aaya Sophia ,it is still there, but just like our Andalusian Cordoba & Seville. I would be grateful to you if you could level The Inquisition of the Spanish church and monarchs with any documented trace of such atrocities in Constantinople . It is a thing from the past, cause if Turks( or Muslims, under another label) did Christianity wrong in this very one, I be talking about 10 Crusades, all those atrocities that outnumbers whatever happened in Constantinople ! My friend Christians had massacred all the world, why not admit it? Mark twain did .
            7. We fantasize about seizing other peoples lands? Who came out with the biased, racist and unjust idea of a God (promising a land) for some nation that withered away since 2 thousands years ago, and their Nth derivative rose up in 1948 claiming that land ? wasn’t it the Biblical & Hebrew God Himself? Well our Allah did not commit such a silly prophecy, He just told us that Israelis will rise up before Judgement Day and acquire tremendous power and that He would send his worshipers to topple Israel and sweep it away. This alone is enough to let me believe in Islam & Quran as the one and only righteous faith, cause it is is about justice and claiming back our rights.
            8. Grateful to you for this balanced dispatch.

          • Thaddeus lovelock

            I don’t believe in avenging things done in the past. I don’t believe in payback. No Muslim or Christian is responsible for what bad things may have been done in the name of their faith hundreds of years ago. I never had any sympathy for the crimes committed by Serbian nationalists against Bosnians. I wish Europe had intervened much sooner than it did to end the carnage.

          • YasirDuhham

            I have to agree with it all, love is the answer, like ED & JFC sing

          • Thaddeus lovelock

            I disagree with you that America wanted to ignite a sectarian war. That’s the last thing they wanted. What they wanted was a stable Iraq, that was generally supportive of American foreign policy. That’s one of the reasons they stayed there so long. They were trying to hold the country together. They actually advised the Shia administration to rule more inclusively. But they were ignored . There were also elements amongst the Sunnis that wanted to provoke a sectarian war. And there were some Shia that wanted the same thing. I remember when Sunni extremists destroyed the famous Shiite shrine.
            Anyway the USA should have known the potential for sectarian tensions to explode in Iraq. I don’t know what the answer is for Iraq now. It may be better for Iraq to become two countries. One for the Shiites, and one for the Sunnis.

          • YasirDuhham

            USA had more than just one agenda in Iraq, the CIA & The Pentagon had different visions and different stooges accordingly ( The late Ahmad Alchalabi was just one example for it ). Also, I had read it long ago that people always lag behind their own governments ” in matters of comprehending any decision and intentions, even practices too, check USA in Salvador , Vietnam, ..etc. Would you be believing me if I was telling you about Iraqi prisoners being tortured, sodomized and killed if it were not for Abu Ghraib archive leaking out ? Do you know that there still are a huge amount of abuses and atrocities , not mention the proofs they damaged deliberately ? It was a jungle out there(here) ! Sunnies & Shiites were sort of fire and gasoline, but all through Saddam’s reign it was safe for all, cause and effect once again, comparing Saddam’s reign to some 7 years reign of USA in Iraq, the consequences to the invasion tells it all. Actually USA is still insisting on the same wrong vision, hence the violence and blood shedding

    • iand

      Have to agree about America supporting ISIS, I cannot ignore the evidence I see.

      • Thaddeus lovelock

        The USA did not support Isis.

        • YasirDuhham

          The USA did not offend Native Indians !! The USA did not use Napalm in Vietnam, the USA did not destroy Iraq, the USA is a God on Earth !

  • Wayward

    ‘We’re worried you’ll fight us, so if you really want peace too, give up your guns.’

    So, giving over your weapons and ability to defend yourself can have negative consequences? If only there was some lesson to be gleaned from this…

  • thetruthoflife

    I like this guy. Great to watch on TV. His sermons are fantastic but I’m not so sure he is right about forgiveness not being in the Quran. I do not defend another faith but it’s so important to speak in media what is factual. I think Islam does have forgiveness in it. Show forgiveness, enjoin what is good, and turn away from the ignorant. Surah Al-A’raf 7:199 The believers are those who spend in charity during ease and hardship and who restrain their anger and pardon the people, for Allah loves the doers of good. Surah Ali Imran 3:134 The angels glorify and praise their Lord and seek forgiveness for those on the earth. Verily, Allah is the Forgiving, the Merciful. Surah Ash-Shura 42:5 – It is important for credibility to talk from position of knowledge even if we are Christians.

    • YasirDuhham

      Mr Vicar of Baghdad, checkmate ! The following ‘Aayas talk about
      forgiveness, preach about it and promote it, even with people who are
      not Muslims, even with gay people , next time you want to speak about
      Quran consult me in the least before you regret it: ( As Sura No./
      ‘Aaya No. : 2/54, 2/160,3/31, 3/135, 4/16, 4/17, 4/18,
      4/48, 4/64, 4/116 ,5/39, 5/111, 7/155 , 8/29 , 9/27, 9/ 97 till 104,
      9/106, 9/113, 11/3, 11/61 , 11/90 , 16/110, 16/119, 20/82 , 24/22 ,
      25/71, 28/16, 33/24, 33/35 , 33/ 70-71 , 39/53 , 46/31 , 57/28 ,
      61/10-11-12 , 71/3-4 )

    • Peter Ranford

      I would like to point out that if you look closer at the verses many of the are conditional on “turning to Allah” for example. Then we have the issue of contradictions. are both correct? or is the latter one the better, as according to the doctrine of Abrogation. But beyond that if you take the tone of the koran in a holistic way you will find that Allah has no love for the Kafir nor will he forgive unbelief.

      • YasirDuhham

        How Allah will be dealing with a Kafir ( one who denies the existence of a creator,whether Allah,God,..etc) is up to Him ( Same it is for all Non-Muslims who were destined to stick to their own religion, as long as they do not commit major sins that even their own religion repels and denounces), it is given in Quran this way, not my own thoughts ,I do have the locations of those texts . God could forgive any sin unless it is up to a human being that the sin had offended and did harm. Quran says ( My Mercy contained my wrath). It is the offenses that you commit onto people and other creations that you ought to pay for, unless they opt to forgive you. In one Hadith it is given that some people refuse on Judgement Day to forgive( up to them),so God points to a very attractive part of Eden and tells that one that it is prepared for those who forgive , this way it is evened out .

        • Peter Ranford

          “Vengeance is mine says the Lord” Biblical concept.

          BUT Quran 9:74
          They swear by Allah that they did not say [anything against the Prophet] while they had said the word of disbelief and disbelieved after their [pretense of] Islam and planned that which they were not to attain. And they were not resentful except [for the fact] that Allah and His Messenger had enriched them of His bounty. So if they repent, it is better for them; but if they turn away, Allah will punish them with a painful punishment in this world and the Hereafter. And there will not be for them on earth any protector or helper.
          Who was to punish them with a painful punishment IN THIS LIFE?

          • YasirDuhham

            Peter I will lose my electricity (and Internet too) in less than 5 minutes(generator supply),tomorrow I will reply to this one

          • YasirDuhham

            You have it in your English terminology, it is what you call as ( Karma), we don’t have anything like Karma, we would say that God is to revenge for that poor and impotent victim, we believe that God Has His own ways of intervening , as our famous saying goes when we witness justice being served as if an accident hit that evil person ” God Does Not Throw Just Stones “. There is no script that allows any Muslim to torture others, it is a practice that has no roots in Islamic terminology or acripture

  • Thaddeus lovelock

    The Islamist mindset blames the USA, and the west for all the problems, that beset the Muslim/Arab world. While denying the destructive course that Islamist ideology often takes.

    • YasirDuhham

      Under two different destructive effects you could never tell which one of them is the more predominant, but in any case, it is their lives and they are free to try whatever they see as fine, while it is intrusion and intervention when your folks impose their choices and support for this and not that. It is about freedom and minding one’s own business in the long run

    • saint_91

      Thaddeus is correct but that’s only half the diagnosis. But there are partisans in the West who also say the problem wholly comes from Muslims – as if centuries of colonialism, invasions, and now endless drone strikes won’t enrage a people too.

      The reality is that there’s truth to both sides. The US has committed major crimes, and the Islamists commit major crimes too. Until people start being honest about both, there won’t be traction on this issue.

  • Fenman

    Our politicians will never admit the Koran is th eproblem, so they will never produce the right strategy to combat ISIS and other fundamnetalists.

    Unlike denial preachers such as Boris those of us who have lived in the ME know fundamnetlaist are the majority and over-whelmingly sympathetic to Islamist terroists. When even Arab accountants in suits tell you the twin Towers were a CIA plot and MI5 staged the London bombs you know you the majority is the problem.
    So the first thing is to deport all fundamnetalists who are not citizens and strip naturalised citizens of their passports, and all dual citizens.

  • saint_91

    Of course the Qur’an talks about forgiveness. Every person here can find an online version of the Qur’an then search for phrases like forgiveness and mercy.

    This guy is clearly lying and wants more war.

    The boundaries of this struggle should not be believers in the Qur’an vs the rest, because that is doomed to make the problem worse. The boundaries of this struggle should be those who accept peaceful coexistence and those who do not.

    By acting as if these are equivalent ways of seeing the problem, you are playing into the narrative fundamentalists want to promote.

    • Peter Ranford

      The true pious Muslim is commanded to wage jihad until there is no more tumult. will they stop if not resisted?

    • YasirDuhham

      You are a worthless thing, your time has gone with the wind that you break

    • Alexander Seekhear

      http://quran.com/search?q=forgiveness

      I searched the quran for forgiveness and it seems the vicar is right.

      Take the first result in the above link:

      9:80
      Sahih International
      “Ask forgiveness for them, [O Muhammad], or do not ask forgiveness for them. If you should ask forgiveness for them seventy times – never will Allah forgive them. That is because
      they disbelieved in Allah and His Messenger, and Allah does not guide the defiantly disobedient people.”

      A lot of the results are in the same vein. Those verses where it does speak of actually showing forgiveness, reading the verse in the context of the surrounding verses, it is generally qualified as being directed towards other muslims only.

      Islimists and terrorists like Islamic State can act feeling righteous justified in their actions as there are plenty of passages in the quran, which is the word of God after all, to support them.

  • YasirDuhham

    I feel like I should be highlighting a common theme for too many comments. Mr Mohamedali Gokal from Sussex addressed the Vicar of Baghdad in a letter forwarded to The Spectator, I am quoting his own words( part of his letter in deed): ” Any reader of the Quran would note that 113 of its 114
    chapters begin with a pronouncement of God’s limitless mercy and
    beneficence. In fact ‘forgiveness’ and ‘mercy’ are mentioned roughly 100
    and 200 times respectively. An entire chapter of the Quran is devoted
    to the quality of mercy (Surah Rahman).The living embodiment of such values was the Prophet Muhammad. Did he not demonstrate the pinnacle of clemency when he forgave Wahshi, the
    criminal who murdered and mutilated his uncle Hamza? At that time, the
    following Quranic verse was revealed: ‘O My Devotees, who have committed
    excesses against their own selves, do not despair of the mercy of
    Allah. Surely, Allah forgives all sins. Indeed He is the most Forgiving,
    the Merciful’ (Quran 39:54). We then learn ‘And the recompense of evil
    is punishment like it, but whoever forgives and amends, he shall have
    his reward from Allah; surely He does not love the unjust’ (42.40). ” ( referring to http://www.spectator.co.uk/2015/11/letters-there-is-plenty-of-forgiveness-in-the-quran/ ). In fact we all miss to be very exact and 100% to the point when we respond to commentators since we tend to catch up with a shower of comments. The number of Basmala( The pronouncement of God’s limitless mercy and beneficence. In fact ‘forgiveness ) is 114 not 113, a whole Basmala is there on behalf of The Queen of Sheba when she read King Solomon’s message to her, covering for Surat Bara’a that does not start with a Basmala. Mr. Gokal is credited for bringing how Mohammad did forgive the slave(Wahshi) who killed Mohammad’s most beloved uncle and supporter, Hamza, the rest of the story is about Hamza’s liver that was ripped out of his guts and chewed by a notorious pagan lady,Hind, for a vengeance pledge she had long vowed to do. He also forgave Hind herself ( she reverted to Islam after Mecca was conquered, same as that slave ,Wahshi, did). Also , those (Three men who lagged behind) dodging contributing to a fight that took place in a very hot season and of much hardship, favoring to enjoy their luxurious and cool life style in Medina rather than take the trouble like every man did . Surat Al Tawba, No. 9 (‘Aayas 91>>>97 & 118) gives a two route judgement for their case ,first declining their apologies after the fight was over, then accepting it after they gave up on any hope of forgiveness, all people in Medina refusing to deal or speak with them. But, in almost every script that addresses pagans there is a next script that excludes those who repent, the door of forgiveness is open unless the sin is very ample or the relevant guys addressed there had died without repenting.

  • YasirDuhham

    There was that guy denying any intention of US army to trigger sectarian civil war between Sunnies & Shiites, check this clip: https://youtu.be/P5RMDUZLzlY

  • http://www.quranful.com TALAL ITANI

    Funny.
    [Quran 2:263] Kind words and forgiveness are better than charity followed by insults. God is Rich and Clement.
    from http://www.clearquran.com

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