Features

Project Fear: how Cameron plans to scare us into staying in the EU

It worked in Scotland, so ‘Project Fear’ will be deployed again to persuade Britain to stay in Europe

16 January 2016

9:00 AM

16 January 2016

9:00 AM

The negotiations may be ongoing, but David Cameron has given up waiting for the outcome of his talks with the European Union. The Prime Minister has made up his mind: he wants Britain to vote to stay in the EU — and the campaigning has already begun. His closest allies have been assigned to the task; Downing Street is already in election mode and a strategy is being devised.

As with the Scottish referendum campaign, the In campaign will consist of vivid warnings about the dangers of voting to leave. In Scotland it was dubbed Project Fear, and that’s what Cameron is planning again. In theory, the Prime Minister has until the end of next year to call the referendum vote. In practice, he wants it over with. The polls suggest that it’s his to lose, the ‘In’ side is comfortably ahead at the moment — and the rule of thumb in referendums is that the change proposition, ‘Out’ in this case, needs to be ahead by double digits if the campaign is to win. But In’s advantage could evaporate with a new refugee crisis or a new eurozone crisis or both. Time, Cameron has decided, is now his enemy. He’d like to agree a deal, any deal, with the EU next month and hold the referendum in June — although this timetable may well slip, delaying the vote until September. The unofficial deadline has transformed government: the Prime Minister himself now never misses an opportunity to say that Britain should stay inside a reformed EU.

The campaign, though, is a little complicated for the PM. How can a self-described ‘Eurosceptic’ lead the effort to stay in the EU? How can the Prime Minister of a country whose recent success owes much to staying out of the single currency and the Schengen agreement argue that Britain must at all costs remain in the club that came up with these disastrous ideas? Many countries in Europe, whose leaders grew up in dictator-ship, cling to the EU project as the guarantor of their democracy. For most members, the European project has always been as much about geopolitics as economics. For the Poles, EU membership means a bulwark against the Russian menace; for the Greeks, it means no return to coups by colonels. But Britain has no dictatorial demons to hide from. If anything, Britain joined the then European Economic Community out of a fear of being left behind economically. When Cameron first declared his intention to hold an in-or-out referendum, he grasped this. EU membership was framed as an issue of prosperity. ‘Our participation in the single market, and our ability to help set its rules, is the principal reason for our membership,’ he said in his Bloomberg speech in 2013. But now even this argument looks shaky: given that Britain creates more jobs than the rest of the European Union put together, can he really argue that we need it for prosperity? Or that Britain, the world’s fifth — and soon to be fourth — largest economy, is somehow too small to go it alone?

This line was used in Scotland, and had some potency, given the amount of subsidy needed to balance its books, and the unanswered question about what an independent Scotland would have as its currency. But as one senior member of the government admitted in a more candid moment, the economic arguments for EU membership are now too finely balanced to be sure that they would deliver a referendum victory. So the Prime Minister has hit on one theme that does have force: whether Britain wants to go it alone in a dangerous and uncertain world. One senior No. 10 source says that this new emphasis reflects the times: ‘The rise of Isis changes arguments.’

This might sound a little incongruous. Traditionally, the British have regarded the EU as an economic arrangement, with security the preserve of the Nato alliance. When the EU was awarded the Nobel Peace prize in 2012, Cameron didn’t even bother turning up to the ceremony, sending Nick Clegg instead. Not content with that snub, the Prime Minister went out of his way to stress that Nato deserved the prize as much as the EU. But things have changed. One senior member of the government sums up the case for remaining like this: ‘Who’ll be happiest if we vote to leave? Vladimir Putin. Do we want that?’

But will we buy that? The Foreign Office thinks so. They were struck by the way support for EU membership went up after Putin’s annexation of Crimea. This (it is argued) shows that voters ‘get’ that Russian aggression in Eastern Europe means that the liberal, democratic nations of Europe need to gather together. But does one necessarily follow on from the other? Ultimately, Europe’s security is underpinned by a country that isn’t a member of the EU: the United States of America. When Poland’s Foreign Minister suggested that Warsaw could accept Cameron’s proposal for a four-year ban on in-work benefits for EU migrants in exchange for greater protection against the Russian threat, what he wanted was Nato bases — not the deployment of an EU Rapid Reaction Force. Yet this argument is more than just a campaign tactic. One government minister tells me: ‘Putin sees Brexit as weakening any effective system of European and transatlantic co-operation.’

This is a view shared by the US administration. Indeed, Barack Obama is expected to visit the UK this spring — his farewell tour — and the hope in government circles is that he will again make clear that he would like Britain to stay in the EU. While US presidents have always wanted this (mainly to improve the quality of the EU), Obama’s benediction would be used to make a separate point: that there is no conflict between the ‘special relationship’ and EU membership; that the leader of the free world wants Britain inside the EU for the sake of western security.

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And how about the Islamic State? Does it also want Brexit? The Prime Minister would never be as crude as to even suggest this, but he does seem adamant that the terrorist threat strengthens the case for staying in the EU. Before Christmas, he told the editor of this magazine and me that jihadism meant that the EU needed a stronger external border, which Britain could help reinforce. He wanted a ‘better exchange of information’ because ‘it’s no good simply sitting behind your own borders if you don’t know which people are coming into which European countries. If you can’t check them against your own warnings list, then you’re not safer.’

He was rehearsing the argument we can expect to hear a lot of on the campaign trail: that Britain has better protection against Islamic terrorism as part of the EU. This wasn’t quite the French experience: Europe’s lack of borders made the Isis route to Paris all the easier, and border controls have been springing up all over the continent ever since the Bataclan attacks. What’s more, co-operating with other countries against terrorism hardly requires them to be members of the EU: Britain’s closest intelligence partners are the ‘Five Eyes’ of the US, Australia, Canada and New Zealand. Equally, it is hard to believe that Brexit would end the close and mutually beneficial intelligence relationship between the British and French security services which, as John Scarlett has pointed out, has worked well for a century.

But co-operation against the terrorist threat, and organised crime, will nonetheless be one of the arguments advanced for staying in the EU, and this might be more effective than the Out campaign expects. It’s worth remembering that the one time Nick Clegg got the better of Nigel Farage in their EU debates in 2014 was when he claimed that leaving the EU would make life easier for paedophiles and other criminals.

Security is the new Tory buzzword. The s-word was even invoked in the Prime Minister’s speech on poverty and family values this week: there is barely a Tory proposal that isn’t sold as a way to make us safer. Why? Because the Tory high command remain captivated by Lynton Crosby’s insight that security is what voters crave most. Crosby himself might have declined to get involved in this referendum campaign, but one government source says that it will be ‘Lyntonesque’.

One the biggest risks to Cameron’s security strategy is Theresa May. If the longest serving home secretary for more than a century were to declare herself an ‘outer’ on the grounds that being in the EU makes Britain less safe — backed by Liam Fox, Cameron’s first defence secretary — it would blow a big hole in the government’s case. But no one knows on which side Mrs May will come down: she seems to be the only person in Westminster who is actually waiting to see what the final renegotiated deal looks like.

Of course the Out campaign, Vote Leave, is very happy to have a fight about security. They argue that when it comes to terrorism, voters view Europe as a hindrance rather than a help. Strasbourg and EU law have repeatedly made it more difficult to extradite those accused of supporting terrorism: look at how long it took Mrs May to put Abu Qatada on a plane to face terror charges in his native Jordan. To the Out campaign, security is the very best reason for voting to reclaim sovereignty: voters, they say, would prefer Britain to take control of its own security rather than trust in EU co-operation. And if leaving the EU means tighter border control, surely that will make us more secure?

What the Brexit campaign fears most is that worries about the short-term economic impact of leaving will come to dominate the campaign. Will there be years of uncertainty as Britain negotiates a new deal, not only with the EU but with every other country that the EU has a trade deal with? Will firms stop investing in the UK until they know what the new relationship will look like? As one of the key members of the Vote Leave campaign warns: ‘If economic fear dominates, it will swamp everything else.’

This is where Project Fear comes in, and the PM’s bloodcurdling warnings about the dangers of leaving. Senior strategists are unapologetic about this. The Liberal Democrats on the campaign, who were hit hard in the election by Tory warnings about the dire consequences of a Labour/SNP coalition, are determined to use the tactics that were deployed against them to such devastating effect. Even Nick Clegg has given his blessing to adopting this approach. ‘Fear of the unknown is a powerful — and legitimate — emotion,’ he wrote recently.

Andrew Cooper, the senior Tory on the campaign, won’t be bothered by accusations that this is Project Fear, given his involvement in the Scottish referendum. He is a proud and unashamed defender of the Better Together campaign. He vigorously rebuts any suggestion that it was too negative.

And for good reason: negativity works. The challenge for the Out campaign is to try to find a way to neutralise these toxic attacks. One option gaining favour is proposing a second referendum, so voters can see the final terms of exit should Britain decide to leave. This may encourage more to vote Out first time around. But Downing Street is confident that it can crush the idea of a two-vote referendum by saying that, if Britain votes out, Cameron will invoke Article 50 — the formal and irreversible two-year process by which a country leaves the EU. To re-inforce this point, other EU leaders will make it clear that a vote to leave will mean precisely that. (Though given how disastrous Brexit would be for the whole European project, and the EU’s habit of making countries vote again, these warnings will not be entirely credible.)

Both sides in the referendum campaign want to paint themselves as the safer choice and to warn of the risks of the other approach. This is not a vote that is going to be won by an appeal to the better angels of our nature.

So for a country that is used to discussing Europe in relatively cold economic terms, the nature of this referendum campaign will come as a surprise. And if the British vote to stay in the EU for security reasons, it will show that we have become that much more European in recent years.

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Show comments
  • Cuba

    Putin. Putin ! Putin ! Putin !
    It is a city Bakhchysarai Republic of Crimea

    https://youtu.be/oNMHgW6xNlg

    • Scott Murphy

      i like this man

    • Scott Murphy

      “Love for one’s motherland is one of the most powerful and uplifting feelings. It manifested itself in full in the brotherly support to the people of Crimea and Sevastopol, when they resolutely decided to return home,” Putin said.

  • davidshort10

    The Scottish referendum campaign had too much of an emphasis on affordability and economics. That only worked up to a point. The result was not a landslide. If the UK does get given a referendum, and that’s doubtful, it will vote ‘Out’. The Spectator is run by Scotsmen, md, editor, deputy editor? and owned by Scotsmen. Let Scotland remain in the European Union if the EU will accept it. Bye.

    • Scott Murphy

      its obvious that all the right thinking common people are going to vote leave.. big business and gravy train politicians are going to try and fool us..beware of the enemy within..

    • Thanks Tank

      They are Scotsmen but they are good little Scotsmen who know their place and bow low for the shilling.

  • Scott Murphy

    only WEAK people FEAR the unknown…so are you man or mouse?

  • Pioneer

    “And if the British vote to stay in the EU for security reasons” they would have been duped.

    • Scott Murphy

      if only we had kept the door shut, then we would have had so much more room in our prisons for our own criminals…

    • Conway

      Just like 1975 when we were told it was just a trading agreement.

      • Leon Wolfeson

        So you’re still whining over that loss, as you didn’t pay attention.

        • John Booth

          Troll alert

          • Leon Wolfeson

            Yes, thanks for alerting people to you.

  • Scott Murphy

    “We are a sovereign nation. But thanks to changes to the Lisbon Treaty, countries like ours can now be outvoted every time by members of the eurozone on new European laws. We cannot be left in a position where we have no ability to defend our national interest. Nor can we simply accept endless migration from across Europe with no ability to slow or stop the resulting growth in our population.” – Chris Grayling MP

    • Conway

      Apart from the bit about our being a sovereign nation (as we can’t remove VAT from anything, I’d say a country that doesn’t control its taxation definitely isn’t sovereign), the rest is reasonable.

      • Leon Wolfeson

        Parliament could do it. They could also also, technically, annul the EU treaties tomorrow.

        They won’t, but it’s the power to do so which makes Parliamentary Sovereignty work.

        (Plus of course the lack of a codified constitution and enforcement of that onto laws via the judiciary, which you can see in i.e. America and France)

  • Alison Houston

    I wonder why Cameron thinks the British people would consider how much safer we would be if we remained in Europe, do British people have a reputation for being cowards and sheep?

    Since such an argument is absolute balls and everyone knows it, and perversely even if it were true we would be up for proving it wasn’t by taking on all comers, such is our bellicose nature, one can only conclude that his belief that such an argument would sway us, is part of the arrogant, psychopathic condition that led him to become PrimeMinister. In short he believes we believe whatever he tells us.

    • Robert the Devil

      I doubt that remaining in Europe would do much to improve our security or to enhance feelings of well-being. Once Merkel’s Muslim marauders obtain EU passports (and they will get them, either legitimately or fraudulently) they will be free to wander across western Europe in which case none of us would have cause to feel safe.

      • Difford

        Quite. We are far more exposed to whatever the world throws at at us by remaining within the EU, and that of course includes the hazards of the EU itself.

        What I find particularly perverted about our relationship with “Europe” via the EU is that given the national hostility to the project here and all attempts to make ourselves unpopular in it, is there is NO political of civil will among our “partners” to throw us out. So much for the “solidarity” that the EU imagines it has behind it.
        Related to the above point, why is our diametric opposite – Germany, the most pro-EU-brainwashed nation which unlike us strives to be popular in the EU – so anxious to keep us in?

        Before anyone writes “our money”, I think it goes much further:
        this “union” is so meaningless that even an unpopular nation that *crawls* for popularity – Germany- cannot bring itself to say “if you people do not like it (and it is absolutely clear that instinctively the majority of us do not) – then there’s the door”. That would be the reaction of a member of a healthy, popular club, wouldn’t it?

        But they don’t, and I wonder why we should want to be party to this unhealthy club with such a low self-esteem.

        It is too perverted.

        • Leon Wolfeson

          Yea, we’re not isolated, the evils.

          As you talk about your hostility to the Other, including Germany… as the majority of your personalities “instinctively” dislike anything not just like you…

          And yes, really, stop being one personality among many…

      • Watt

        Even post ‘Brexit Merkel’s Muslim marauders’ will still be at liberty to enter the UK as freedom of movement UK-EU & vice versa will be maintained.

        • Brian Jones

          I’d love to see your explanation for that statement. An independent UK will be able to control who does and doesn’t enter our country exactly like every other sovereign country in the world.

      • Leon Wolfeson

        But yet you have a passport, no?

    • Leon Wolfeson

      How will you drive England across the Atlantic? Steam Jets?

      • John Booth

        So, the child is back with his pathetic, uninteresting comments

        • Leon Wolfeson

          You are? Well, as only you can know your age…

    • warmingmyth

      With all this discussion of safety and security, one senses the possibility of another f@lse fl@g to emphasise the point.
      Best to be prepared for when it happens:
      http://www.paranoiamagazine.com/2016/01/the-false-flag-formula-15-ways-to-detect-a-false-flag-operation-2/

  • hupp

    Worked in Scotland during indiref.
    Worked before and during GE.
    Currently working on Corbyn.

    Monster bites its cheerleaders. Gotta love that. Maybe they’ll start to dislike the brute force propaganda techniques, that this gov&media use, to tell people how they think.

    [Insert YOU anti-EU tories] are a threat to national security, economic security etc…

  • Zapece

    Only a reckless fool would take a leap into the unknowable consequences of a Brexit. Whatever the outcome of the referendum, to have access to EU markets the UK will keep paying what it is paying now in one form or another. We arent in the Schengen area so we already have control of our borders. Previous waves of immigration occurred when we weren’t in the EU so immigration and EU membership are not fundamentally connected, if anything things might get worse if we left as France could just let people on the way to the UK go straight through. The one thing a Brexit might do is start the destruction of the financial hub as bankers move to Frankfurt and trigger a UK breakup. Is the EU so bad that people are willing to risk such huge downsides? I think not, common sense will prevail.

    • cartimandua

      We have a trade DEFICIT with the EU. We sell more to the wider world. They will still want to have trade agreements with us.

      • hupp

        England has trade deficit OVERALL. Northern Ireland, Scotland and Wales have a trade surplus. And in England it’s the northerners (NW&NE) that are the only parts with a Trade surplus. SE is worst trade deficit, followed by London which really should be #1, considering it’s a city… but with all the worshiping of the City of London, you’d think it is the holy grail of Trade surplus.

        • jim_joystique

          Forget the rest of the world. It’s a rounding error. What are their trade deficits or surpluses with England, their main trading partner by far?

          • Clive

            As a matter of interest, I’d like to know where these numbers about trade surpluese / deficits for Scotland, etc. ? Always interested in numbers and I cannot find anything on trade with the EU by UK nations separately

            The UK overall has a large trade deficit with the EU

        • Brian Jones

          try as you might that argument isn’t going to work, we are a United Kingdom and the City which is in England probably attracts more money into the country than any region.

      • Zapece

        No one knows what the deal with the EU would look like after a Brexit so to speculate on what will be is pointless. Brexit at the moment is in fact the equivalent of standing on a diving board in the dark leaping off and hoping there is enough water at the bottom.

        • Catalpah

          Staying in the EU is the equivalent of standing on a diving board in the dark leaping off and KNOWING there isn’t enough water at the bottom.

          Voting to stay in the EU is not voting for the status quo. The EU is changing year by year and to me the changes always seem to be to the detriment of the UK.

          What laws will the EU bring in over the next few years? No-one knows, so you can’t get more in the dark than that.

    • Thanks Tank

      I think the EU is starting to break up anyway under Merkel’s leadership.

      People are looking at Brexit as walking away from a failing project, a failing Eurozone currency and economy and focusing on the wider world.

      Both Britain and Europe will still trade together because they need each other and it would be too painful for either to stop that.

      However given the lack of growth and demand in most of Europe the loss of British custom would send the Eurozone in to a fatal tail spin.

      • Zapece

        The main issues I have with the EU (and I have quite a few) are the lack of financial integration between sovereign members also the lack of solidarity between member states who (just like the UK) are trying to not to act in concert but are trying to get the best deal for themselves. If we are going to make the EU work to its potential then a commitment to work collaboratively must be made and that means working for the good of all people within the EU not just a Germany or the UK. To build the EU into a great place to live requires investment in infrastructure especially to places that have been ravaged by war such as the Baltics. Essentially the EU is a long term plan that is still in its infancy and going through growing pains but until Countries and people commit to it fully and see themselves as European first and British second there will always be this ongoing conflict. Superstates are the way of the future and anyone who can’t see that probably has a lot in common with an Ostrich.

        • fundamentallyflawed

          Financial Integration has failed as the economies are fundamentally unequal
          Collaboration has become dictation over sovereignty (look at the Greek farce)
          The EU is an axis on German/Franco terms propped up by Eastern Europe who want part of the action
          We put in more than we get out
          The trading won’t stop if we leave
          Superstates like the USSR are doomed to fail and will result in a century of misery if we don’t get out now

        • RingedPlover

          It’s too late to build the EU into a great place to live. Recent mass immigration has seen to that.

        • Conway

          Why do you think there is no financial integration? The euro needed it before it was set up if it was not to fail. The answer is, the people of Europe do not want it. Not that they will have any choice unless we vote for freedom and give them the opportunity to escape it as well.

    • RingedPlover

      I hope there are more reckless fools than otherwise then!

    • jim_joystique

      Isn’t remaining a member more of a leap into the unknowable?

      Bankers won’t move to Frankfurt. They do most of their business outside of the EU.

      • Conway

        We know what will happen if we stay – the EU will take it as a green light to go ahead with the formation of the USE and we’ll be regionalised, have to adopt the euro and, if it hasn’t collapsed by then, join Schengen. It is more likely that banking will be moved to Frankfurt (it’s what they’ve been angling for all along) if we stay in.

    • Wee Mental Davie

      Regarding your border with France. If we leave the EU and all their ridiculous rules, we will be able to refuse entry to anyone we deem unsuitalbe. No documentation … return to sender. Asylum claims at first country of safe haven. We decide who can come here, we have our control back. To use this for scaremongering is not going to work.

      • MichtyMe

        The border with France is controlled, if the UK separates from the EU it may mean Schengen and open borders with the EU, as with Switzerland and Norway.

        • Wee Mental Davie

          Absolute rubbish. It would be impossible to physically control these borders, therefore negotiations on their relationship with the EU would never be the same. We are an island nation. We have control if our politicians actually want this.

    • Catalpah

      We do not have control of our borders – any EU citizen can come to the UK and the government cannot stop them.
      1 million immigrants to the EU this year. How many more in 2016, 2017 and future years? These immigrants will get EU passports and then how many of them will migrate to the UK?

    • Conway

      Only a reckless fool would take a leap into the unknowable consequences of a Brexit staying in, more like.

  • cartimandua

    Rampaging hordes of barbarians is a lot of out votes. Women do actually vote.

  • hupp

    Was ‘funny’ for the haters, when the tactic was used on Scotland, political opponents and to a ridiculous, beyond parody extent, against corbyn. [Play M&S advert voice in head] A bike is not just a bike, it’s a chairman Mao, freedom hating machine.

    Next in line for their own treatment…Wait for it

    • RingedPlover

      Haters? Haters of what?

  • King Kibbutz

    The most fundamental change that membership of the EU has brought to the UK, is fear ingrained.
    It is not a working partnership. It is a day-care centre for the vulnerable.

  • outlawState

    The real people Cameron fears are the British. Freed from the shackles of the EU, europhiles will become figures of contempt and derision. Everlasting ignominy will be their fate.

  • greggf

    “But Britain has no dictatorial demons to hide from.”

    Huh?
    Britain has been and still is always been averse to Europe dominated by powerful nations in every sense in Europe mostly Germany and France.
    What rubbish you talk……

    • jim_joystique

      Keeping the balance of power on the continent was British policy, mostly to protect the Empire. We no longer have an Empire, yet we still have the same foreign policy. It’s ridiculous.

      • greggf

        Well, Germany and France still have the same policy interests – respectively East Europe and North Africa. Britain’s interests (in the Commonwealth) remain similar in the same ways.

    • ClausewitzTheMunificent

      I think the impact of English/British interventions in continental
      Europe 1100-1945 is greatly overestimated. The European landpowers were
      not strong enough to impose their will on the others quite aside from
      British meddling. Then again the British felt quite beyond any
      retribution and so could safely plunder and ravage (that’s what happens
      when armies march anywhere) their neighbours at will. Why do you think
      Britain is known as Perfidious Albion? Because it has a nasty habit of
      getting involved in other states’ business, that’s why! Since the Norman
      invasion the British elite have fought countless wars in continental
      europe for prestige, at great monetary expense to themselves and at the
      expense of great death and destruction visited on the populations of
      their ever shifting “enemies”, but without ever radically altering any
      pre-existing balance of power: the ultimate example of barbarous
      futility at the expense of others. The policy ultimately failed
      horribly, in contributing to the stalemate of the 1st World War which
      led directly to the disintegration of the British Empire and the
      collapse of British identity.

      Now, I don’t think this has anything to do with
      what the British approach should be to the European Union, which is not
      “united” and is certainly not a military or political threat to
      Britain. Thus the British have not continued their foreign policy,
      partly because of a lack of moral and physical strength, but mostly
      because there has been no need. At most the British government has at
      times acted petulantly, but it has not conspired against the EU. In fact
      despite the silly nostalgic-self aggrandisement which is often the
      motivation for British resistance to the EU, I fully support their aims
      to reconquer their independence on their terms because I believe it is
      the right of every nation state.To posit some continuity in pre-war and postwar British foreign policy is I think quite ridiculous, the real reason the Brits (and many other european peoples besides) want Out is that the whole project is Mad, run by the Bad, and is Dangerous to individual and national freedom.

      • greggf

        Your post adds to my understanding.

      • Clive

        Britain has not fought ‘countless wars’ unless you count the wars with what was not yet France over the territory inherited through the dukedom of Normandy. Henry II arguably ruled more of what is modern France than did the French king.

        I don’t disagree about what land armies do but anyway, Britain’s main contribution has not been on land but at sea.

        Arguably Britain significantly contributed to the destruction of Napoleon’s hopes by naval action.

        The same applies to WW2. Given the campaign by Lindbergh, etc. would the USA have come into the european theatre if Britain was not still free of German rule ? They may well have reached a deal with Hitler.

        It has always been British foreign policy to prevent continental europe uniting in aggression against us. That’s just defensive and seems reasonable to me.

  • Torybushhug

    When Europhiles argue cross border co-operation is only possible within the EU keep pointing out the fact Independant nations co-operate perfectly well all the time, for example Australia played a pivotal role in a global online abuse operation

  • davidshort10

    Once more, I have tried to figure out what this article is saying and I cannot. If the British ever get a referendum, which I doubt, they will vote for Out. No doubt about in my mind. I am not sure the exit would lead to ‘security’ but that’s why people will want to leave. When they voted to stay in in 1975, they did not bargain for what we have now.

    • davidofkent

      That’s the problem. In 1975, we were voting to stay in or leave the Common Market. I did not want to hand over our sovereignty to a European Union. The Europeans have made enough of a mess of their politics in some 600 years for Britain to want to keep well out of it. The EU has helped to prevent France and Germany being at each other’s throats, but nobody could claim that the countries of the EU are a happy, loving bunch. In fact each one is out for what it can get out of the others, with Britain seen as ‘cash cow’ No 1.

      • RingedPlover

        To my eternal shame I voted to join the Common Market. Trade only; none of what has come to pass since. I can only hope we vote to get out of the EU.

        • Zapece

          And thats the problem right there in black and white.

          • Clive

            It’s more than that. With Political Union and fiscal union – which are being pushed along – the eurozone will become a nation state. Note that it will have its own parliament – not the European Parliament.

            http://blogs.reuters.com/hugo-dixon/2015/08/03/euro-zone-doesnt-need-political-union/
            …France’s President Francois Hollande has called for a euro zone government, with its own budget, which would be accountable to the people via a new euro zone parliament. Pier Carlo Padoan, the Italian finance minister, has backed the idea – also advocating a euro zone unemployment scheme.

            The European Union’s so-called five presidents have given nuanced support for these ideas. In their June report, European Commission President Jean-Claude Juncker, European Central Bank chief Mario Draghi, European Parliament President Martin Schulz, European Council President Donald Tusk and head of the Eurogroup Jeroen Dijsselbloem called for a euro zone treasury – effectively a finance ministry for the bloc – and a “common macroeconomic stabilisation fund” to help countries weather shocks….

          • Catalpah

            It might be a problem for you with your vision of a European state, but most people do not want a European state and think of themselves as British (English/Scottish/Welsh/NIrish) and not Europeans.

        • Conway

          No, RP, you didn’t vote to join the Common Market, because nobody asked us. Heath did it without consulting the people (and lied through his teeth about it). What you voted on was to STAY in the Common Market. The EU didn’t exist until 1992 and Maastricht. If people had not been lied to, we would have left in 1975. There is still a lot of lying going on to keep us in the EU, but fortunately, we have access to more information now and the mainstream media no longer have a monopoly.

          • RingedPlover

            Sorry; I wasn’t quite sure. Either way, I regret it.

      • Clive

        It is NATO and the Cold War threat of Mutually Assured Destruction that kept France and Germany from each others’ throats.

        The West Germans worked hard to resurrect their blighted country and the French milked them for everything they could get.

        Then De Gaulle blackballed the UK – he made no secret of it – until the CAP was in place and he could milk the UK as well.

        Then Margaret Thatcher came along and got some of the CAP money back…

        Then Tony Blair gave some of it away…

        Now we have David Cameron wanting to give it all away – because that is inevitably what an ‘in’ vote will mean.

        Utter compliance, the euro, no exit.

  • sebastian2

    “How can the Prime Minister of a country whose recent success owes much to staying out of the single currency and the Schengen agreement argue that Britain must at all costs remain in the club that came up with these disastrous ideas?”

    He can’t. It shows.

    • jim_joystique

      He doesn’t have to. His spin doctors will set the daily news agenda. The pigs at the BBC will grunt along with them.

      • sebastian2

        You are, alas, correct. I suppose it’s too much to hope for a plague on his spin doctors and swine fever at the BBC?

    • MichtyMe

      If the UK separates from the EU then I will need to join Schengen, just like Switzerland and Norway.

      • Clive

        The Swiss voted for immigration quotas in a referendum

        http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/feb/09/swiss-referendum-immigration-quotas

        So their relationship with Schengen is now dubious. The relationship of every Schengen country with the treaty is dubious because barriers are going up all over the place.

      • Conway

        Is Mexico signed up to Schengen although it trades with the EU? Just because we’re off continental Europe it doesn’t mean we have to have either the Swiss or the Norwegian option. We can have the British option – which is more than we can while we’re in the EU.

        • Leon Wolfeson

          Right, we can pay almost as much for access to some of what we get now. Heck, simply maintaining the land border with other nations will cost England more than the difference.

  • paul

    The most disgusting Prime Minister in living memory the man is a total disgrace he epitomises everything that decent people despise in modern day politics.

    • Brian Jones

      You people do talk some rubbish. Cameron is pro EU , that’s his prerogative. I’m anti EU and will have the same number of votes as he does and the same number as all the left wingers who wish to remain part of the Soviet of Greater Europe. Why would you insult people for having different views to your own? As most of the posters on here seem to be anti Tory and pro EU why are they not insulting those Left Wing politicians who are trying to convince us that our future lies in the EU?

      • Conway

        Presumably because the left wing has always been internationalist rather than patriotic, so it’s expected of them.

      • Catalpah

        But Cameron has the media to voice his views; I do not. Therefore Cameron will sway many more people to his view than I can. That is why he is being attacked.

  • William Brown

    ..

  • John Carins

    The “fear” of staying in the EU far outweighs any “fear” of leaving. If Britain votes to stay in then kiss goodbye to any vestige of independence and pride. Cameron like those EU appeasers before him cannot surely be British. He has no understanding or empathy for our great history and past struggles.

  • MichtyMe

    In which years did the UK ‘balance the books’ ? You can count them on the fingers of one hand and an accumulated deficit of £1.5 trillion indicates it wasn’t by much.

    • Clive

      Not only that but we have a huge balance of trade with the EU but a trade surplus with non-EU countries.
      http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/rel/international-transactions/outward-foreign-affiliates-statistics/how-important-is-the-european-union-to-uk-trade-and-investment-/sty-eu.html
      The economic risk is not leaving the EU but in staying in it.

      This in the piece is puzzling …Will there be years of uncertainty as Britain negotiates a new deal, not only with the EU but with every other country that the EU has a trade deal with? Will firms stop investing in the UK until they know what the new relationship will look like? As one of the key members of the Vote Leave campaign warns: ‘If economic fear dominates, it will swamp everything else.’…

      First of all, there is a clear process laid out in the Lisbon Treaty and that should be quoted by the Vote Leave people as much as possible.

      Second, given their advantageous balance of trade with us, are the EU really going to delay negotiating a deal ?

      Because it’s in our interest to negotiate better terms through the WTO with non-EU suppliers of the same goods.

    • Grammar Grub

      In which years has the EU ever produced a set of accounts to audit.

  • RingedPlover

    I imagine that at some time those of us wishing to leave the EU will be called xenophobic, racist &c. Unless it has happened already?

    • Clive

      Of course it’s happened already. Do you never read the BBC website or The Guardian ?

      • RingedPlover

        BBC never. The Guardian occasionally; I generally fnd it too depressing to prolong a visit!

        • Clive

          I can understand that but for this campaign, it’s worthwhile seeing what your adversary is doing.

          • RingedPlover

            That makes sense. I shall brace myself! Kind regards …

      • MichtyMe

        The BBC is the state broadcaster, it campaigned successfully in the Scottish Referendum to preserve the State and will do so again to protect the State in the EuroRef,

        • Clive

          The BBC may take a different view of what the ‘state’ is – they may view it as the EU – from whom they take money

          http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2014/02/the-millions-in-eu-funding-the-bbc-tried-to-hide/

        • ClausewitzTheMunificent

          Yes, interesting that. The British State or the EU Super-state (no state at all actually but an Empire)?

          • Clive

            I call it the ‘Holy German Vampire’ (HGV) because it sucks the life out of everything around it and it rolls right over any opposition within it.

          • ClausewitzTheMunificent

            I think the vampire business is a symptom of the social and economic decay of the EU. When Empires are strong, the benefits of growth are shared between core and periphery, though the core still gets the greatest share, but when things turn sour the periphery is asset-stripped by the core to buy itself time. Fantastic name though, must remember to pull it out at some point to annoy some EU fanatics.

          • Conway

            Given that the Bbc gets a lot of dosh from the EU (which they tried desperately hard to keep quiet), I know which one I think they’ll be rooting for and it won’t be a free and democratic UK.

        • Grammar Grub

          The “unbiased” BBC is now taken with a very large pinch of salt. Look at the way they, and the MSM, slagged off Farage – the reason we’re getting a referendum in the first place.

    • Wee Mental Davie

      They have even given Alex Salmond another media platform, LBC, to spread his pro EU propaganda. From the SNP point, if we Brexit it will be the end of Scottish independence. I like that very much indeed.

  • Wee Mental Davie

    If we don’t leave the EU now, the present ongoing immigration will mean that the indigenous British people will become a minority at some point. When this happens, there will be no way back. Whether it becomes islamic, is for the politicians, but if it continues like it is just now and follows the European countries, we will be islamic. Just look around our big cities. It really is now or game over.

  • MrBishi

    What’s to fear from leaving the EU?
    Default on our huge debt burden, state pensions reduced by 40% along with state jobs and state salaries?
    A price worth paying?

    • jim_joystique

      Writing complete tripe as usual Bishi.

      • MrBishi

        Which you are unable to counter.

        • jim_joystique

          Peddling standard myths, the kind of crap Clegg would come up with. I’ve countered it above.

          Our trade with the EU is in deficit. They need us (5th largest economy in the world) more than we need them. Tariffs? Fine. Those Mercedes and BMWs just doubled in price.

          Oh dear.

          We can have a trade agreement without being part of a United States of Europe.

          • MrBishi

            I’ve provided all the documentation to “clive”, not myths, facts.
            The EU – just like the UK – operates on the basis of law, not emotional arguments.

          • jim_joystique

            Documentation? Haha.

          • MrBishi

            Halfwit.

          • Conway

            Once you resort to name-calling, Bishi, you’ve lost the argument.

          • MrBishi

            You are a halfwit, what else should I call you?

          • Catalpah

            The EU breaks its own laws whenever it is to its advantage to do so.

          • MrBishi

            The usual Brexit rubbish.
            It makes a change from your moaning about the European Court.

          • MrBishi

            Of course we can, it’s called EFTA and as I have already explained it involves writing all EU law (except farming and fishing) into UK law, adopting Schengen – open borders with the EU – and BTW, Norway pays about the same amount per capita as the UK and has no say in future EU laws and no veto on treaty change.
            Good luck with getting that one past the UK voters.

          • jim_joystique

            The difference is we write this into law applying it only to trade with the EU. Right now, our membership of the EU means that the 95% of businesses that don’t trade with the EU have to implement all EU rules too.

          • MrBishi

            You are simply ignorant.
            All export trade is governed by standards (of manufacture) and our membership of the EU means that we automatically comply with those of the countries we currently export to.
            If you think that we can export – say – bread, with 30% of chalk in it to make it cheap, you are even more stupid than I already think you are.

          • Clive

            We have to comply with EU regulation whether it is appropriate to our exports or not

            If we were not in the EU, each manufacturer would be able to comply to the UK minimum standard and whatever regulation was demanded by the target country as appropriate.

            Much more efficient than the current EU setup

          • MrBishi

            So you think that our manufacturers would have multiple production lines?
            With different quality standards in each?
            You are a deluded fool.

          • Clive

            More invective – you should realise that that signals the poverty of your argument

            Manufacturers are currently tied to EU regulation. If they were not, they could simply adhere to UK standards – which would probably satisfy most overseas markets including the EU – and above that to any standard their customer wants.

            Much more efficient than the current arrangement where regulation is biased away from the UK

            http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/11245359/Dyson-Britain-should-leave-Europe-to-avoid-being-dominated-by-Germans.html
            …Sir James Dyson says that Europe is increasingly dominated by ‘very large’ German companies which ensure that industrial standards protect the ‘old guard’…

          • MrBishi

            Dyson would say that after losing his court case against a German company.
            UK standards are the same as the EU standards, we were party to setting them.

          • jim_joystique

            I work for an exporter, doing most of its business outside of the EU. The business still has to comply with EU regulations even though it’s exporting more to non-EU countries than EU ones.
            It’s really hilarious. We have a trade surplus with the rest of the world, everywhere except the EU. But you think we should remain shackled to the EU for some kind of economic benefit, rather than freeing ourselves to make deals and improve trade with the people we’re actually making money from. It’s quite a shock to see someone so confused about this as you appear to be.
            Worse, our exports to the EU are a small fraction of total trade/GDP in the UK. You’re prepared to give up your national identity and independence, an identity and independence forged over a thousand years, for such a pathetic, measly sum?
            Crazy.

          • MrBishi

            Your complete ignorance on export legislation suggests that if you do indeed work for an exporter it is in a very menial role.
            All exports must meet the standards of the destination country and FTA are there to facilitate reciprocal recognition.
            To even think that we can get rid of manufacturing standards is halfwitted.

          • jim_joystique

            Of course they do. However in this country 95% of businesses never export anywhere yet they still have to obey all EU laws and regulations. These laws and regulations are designed by the big manufacturers in Europe so as to benefit them against their competition. They’re nothing to do with quality.

            If you don’t believe me, listen to Dyson. He knows more about this than either you or I.

          • MrBishi

            Big business bribes politicians to pass favourable legislation.
            Why on earth do you think anything will change if we leave the EU.
            £1 billion flows from lobbying companies into parliament EVERY year.

          • Clive

            There is no reason the UK has to conform to EFTA – which the UK invented.

            We can reach a unique deal for the UK

          • MrBishi

            No we can’t.
            Apart from those European countries which are in the process of joining the EU, all others are in EFTA.
            You are lying.

          • Clive

            No, you are lying.

            Once we start the process of leaving the EU, the UK can negotiate any deal it wants to – and it has significantly better pull than the EFTA countries. The EFTA which Britain invented when we were blackballed from the EU.

          • MrBishi

            I’m sorry but you are wrong and when you keep repeating it you are lying.
            Yes we can join EFTA and pay much the same amount and include all EU legislation into UK law (apart from farming and fishing) and adopt Schengen – open borders with the EU.
            Good luck getting that past the UK electorate.
            You will never win a referendum on a lie – look to Alex Salmond for an example.

        • Scott Murphy

          as per jim joystiques answer below

          • MrBishi

            Jim joystiques seems afraid to post his reply to me.
            I wonder why?

          • Scott Murphy

            Even the most uninterested person in politics in Britain must see that Cameron is totally conning the country with his asinine and useless demands. The strong assertive demands that he mentioned in his speech a few years ago have somehow gone down the plug hole, proving that he is a coward scared of his own shadow. The scaremongering about our security and safety is bogus as his inherent lying. We can and will prosper outside the EU but not with Cretins like him and his gutless government, they just do not have the intelligence to go it alone regardless of their futile education. Do not let him make a monkey of us, vote out!

          • MrBishi

            I agree with your analysis of Cameron but you are wrong to think that we can survive outside of the EU. We will be unable to service our £1.7 trillion of debt and so we will default and copy Greece.

    • Scott Murphy

      complete tripe as usual Bishi

      • MrBishi

        Tripe that the Brexit crew are unable to answer.
        Fact 1 – tariffs will apply if we leave the EU.
        Fact 2 – the motor industry will relocate to the smaller EU taking £60 billion of GDP with them.
        Fact 3 – we will be unable to service our £1.7 TRILLION of debt.

        • jim_joystique

          No tariffs won’t apply. No the motor industry won’t relocate, unless you mean to suggest Germany will want to stop selling us cars. Take a look at the trade balance figures.

          We can easily service our debt. We have our own currency. We can print as much of the stuff as we like. This is completely different to, say, Greece (EZ member), Portgual (EZ member), Italy (EZ member) and France (EZ member), who have to kneel before the Germans when planning their budgets. Something, it seems to me, that you’d quite enjoy.

        • Scott Murphy

          see below

          • MrBishi

            I don’t follow threads, if you have something to say put it on my dashboard.

        • Clive

          Why would tariffs apply ? They are managed by the WTO.

          If they did, tariffs would actually work in our favour because we have a balance of trade deficit with the EU but not with the non-EU

          Toyota have just announced that they are staying the the UK no matter what. Why would any motor manufacturer move ?

          Servicing the debt is easier outside the eurozone which we are already, a completely specious point

          • MrBishi

            The WTO do not set tariffs.
            Toyota will do what the parent company decides not the UK CEO, who didn’t actually say that Toyota would remain in the UK making cars simply that the company would remain.
            You are – as usual – clutching at straws.

          • Clive

            You were doing well there and then veered off into invective, the sure sign of a losing argument.
            http://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/633808/EU-referendum-Brexit-Toyota-Akio-Toyoda-Burnaston-jobs
            …Akio Toyoda, chief executive of the Japanese multinational, has promised to keep the company’s large assembly plant in Burnaston, Derbyshire running for at least the next 75 years….

            How is that not keeping manufacturing in the UK ?

            If we leave the EU we will take up our seat in the WTO through which agency we will negotiate our terms of trade with everyone including the EU

            https://www.wto.org/english/thewto_e/whatis_e/tif_e/agrm2_e.htm
            The bulkiest results of Uruguay Round are the 22,500 pages listing individual countries’ commitments on specific categories of goods and services. These include commitments to cut and “bind” their customs duty rates on imports of goods. In some cases, tariffs are being cut to zero. There is also a significant increase in the number of “bound” tariffs — duty rates that are committed in the WTO and are difficult to raise.

            We will certainly negotiate bilateral deals but it is against the EU’s interest to ave a tariff war with the UK because we have a balance of trade deficit with the EU but a balance of trade surplus with non-EU countries.

          • MrBishi

            The Daily Express – lol.
            http://www.itv.com/news/central/2016-01-12/toyota-boss-drops-hint-over-brexit-britain/

            We already have a seat on the WTO.
            We will not have a tariff war with the EU, they will simply apply the tariffs listed in their laws, which I linked.
            The WTO does not set tariffs, countries or trading groups set them. The WTO simply ensures that they comply with WTO rules.

          • Clive

            The WTO is a forum which can negotiate away tariffs. As I keep saying, our balance of trade with the EU is negative – the EU sell us more than we sell them – so we would actually gain from a tariff war with them. You have not mentioned that if the EU set tariffs so would the UK. We would make a profit on any such tariffs

            If we lost trade with the EU it could actually benefit us.

            The ITV story does not contain the quote from the Toyota CEO so unless you think the Daily Express is actually lying, ITV biased its coverage of the story in a pro-EU way. Nothing new there.

          • MrBishi

            My discussion with you is at an end, you are a deluded fool with a complete ignorance of exporting/importing.
            Do I think the Express would lie?
            You bet.

          • Clive

            So now you are only relying on invective. Your argument is lost.

            Here is a story from the Daily Mail from 2013 which I have cited in another post. It is about Ford moving manufacturing from the UK to Turkey – a non-EU country.

            http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2366138/End-era-British-car-manufacturing-Inside-Fords-Southampton-factory-close-doors-final-time-century-car-production.html
            …It is estimated that more than 2.2million Transits have been made in Southampton in the past 40 years. Production will now switch to Turkey where, Ford says, costs are ‘significantly lower’ than anywhere in Europe, even after delivery charges…..

          • MrBishi

            Turkey has applied to the EU for membership.
            Please try and stop telling lies.

        • Scott Murphy

          as per jim joystiques answer

        • Scott Murphy

          scary monsters said mrbashi..lol rubbish !

          • MrBishi

            Facts, just facts.
            Not that I expect a Brexit supporter to recognise a fact.

          • Conway

            Just because you state it as a fact doesn’t make it so. Your “fact” 2 has already been disproved with Toyota saying it’s going to stay in and the genuine fact that being in the EU made no difference to Ford who relocated to Turkey (with the aid of our money, thanks to the EU). You could say it’s a “fact” that if we stay in, car manufacturers will relocate – because they already have!

          • MrBishi

            I linked a press release from ITV which pointed out that Toyota did NOT say what you claim but merely hinted.
            Perhaps you can explain why the Toyota UK press office have no press release of its CEO’s speech?
            The motor industry has said they will leave and I linked their report.
            Facts, just facts not wishful thinking and lies.

        • Grammar Grub

          The Japanese motor manufacturers wiil STAY – whatever. Obviously you don’t read the FT.

          • MrBishi

            Why does the Toyota press office not carry its CEO’s speech?

        • Marvin

          I need to interrupt. MrBishi, when we win the vote to leave and stop financing the EU and it’s little hangers on, you know the countries that take and give zilch, the EU will crumble and collapse in a pile of dung. How will they finance 10/15 million parasites from the middle east?

          • MrBishi

            There is no way that the British people will vote to bankrupt the nation and so your premise falls.

          • Marvin

            Brilliant! Can I then assume that you thought that Labour would win the GE by a mile? I think for a cook in an Indian café you are a bit above yourself.

          • MrBishi

            I did, indeed, think that Labour would win the last election, along with anyone who could read a poll.
            What sort of halfwit thinks I’m Indian?

          • Marvin

            Well read then! It is the rambling of the usual ungrateful migrant type of comments tend to lean a certain way in the comments you make.

          • MrBishi

            I simply state the facts.
            I sometimes wonder what sort of a halfwit thinks that I am an immigrant.

    • Clive

      IF we stay in the EU, immigrants will eat our babies – the same level of truth as your post

      Do you really want mere propaganda ?

      • jim_joystique

        He seems to be under the impression pensions are paid by the EU. Quite a bizarre comment.

        • Clive

          Get ready for a lot more lies.

          I worked for the Get Britain Out campaign in 1975 and the lying from the other side was astonishing

          They outspent us by between 3 and 5 to 1

          • Zapece

            Excellent I like people with a track record of failure in the competition.

          • Clive

            It was not supposed to be a lying competition but from the look of what’s been said here. it’s what we might expect again.

            This time, there is supposed to be parity of spending.

            If you want to make a pro-EU argument, this is your big chance….

          • Conway

            Expect the same this time – the EU, after all, has the use of our money to fund its propaganda arm and Dave conveniently allowed the EU to intervene in our referendum. My “EU sceptic” MP even voted for it! The only saving grace is that now we have social media and the Internet, so they don’t have a monopoly any longer.

      • MrBishi

        No, my comments are based on EU treaties and published motor industry policy towards Brexit.
        No propaganda, simply correcting Brexit lies and distortions.

        • Clive

          That’s fine then cite references to it

          • MrBishi

            Here’s the EU tariffs laid down in their treaties:
            http://ec.europa.eu/taxation_customs/customs/customs_duties/tariff_aspects/customs_tariff/index_en.htm
            Note especially that they apply to ALL non-EU countries of which we will be one if we leave.
            Here’s the WTO statement on “most favoured nation” status from which you will see that a “special” deal for the UK – from the EU – is not possible.
            And here’s the report of the motor industry – prepared by KPMG – stating that they will relocate if the UK leaves the EU. I got the figure of £60 billion of GDP from this report.
            http://www.smmt.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/SMMT-KPMG-EU-Report.pdf
            Let me know if you want any more factual information.

          • Scott Murphy

            The global economy is heading for financial a crisis as crushing as the 2008/09 collapse, which could be “very ugly” and foreshadow the end of the Eurozone, one of London’s senior financial analysts has warned.

          • MrBishi

            All the more reason to be in the world’s largest market.

          • Grammar Grub

            The world’s most diminishing market.

          • MrBishi

            The EU is not diminishing and is still the world’s LARGEST market.

          • Thanks Tank

            The Eurozone about a decade ago was equal in size to America.

            It is now about 40% smaller. That is unprecedented relative decline in peace time for any country or trade block.

            It has been a disaster for most of the countries in it.

            Add in the social instability sweeping parts of the EU and one has to wonder will there even be an EU to Brexit in a few more years.

            Given the poor growth and the now structural problems in most of the Eurozone, the position of the EU relative to other States/areas will continue to fall back.

            If there is a global recession this year then the Euro will be on life support.

          • MrBishi

            GDP of USA in 2014 was $17.3 trillion, in 2004 it was $12.2 trillion.
            GDP of EU in 2014 was $18.5 trillion, in 2004 it was $16 trillion.
            Silly and wrong – that’s some achievement.

          • Thanks Tank

            You are silly and wrong,lol

            Read my comment again.

            I compared the Euro zone to the US. They were about the same a decade ago but the U.S. has left the EZ for dust, given that the Eurozone has added about 7 countries since then its failure is compounded.

            Even the figures that you give for the EU as a whole tell a negative story about growth and the EU.

          • MrBishi

            Sorry, but we are not in the eurozone and clearly have no intention of joining it.

          • Thanks Tank

            You are a troll.

            Where did I say Britain was in the Eurozone?

            The Eurozone’s problems with growth is what I pointed out.

            You had to deflect because the figures are so shocking that your little EU nationalist mind could not cope.

          • MrBishi

            You made a point about the eurozone – I pointed out that we are not in it.

          • Thanks Tank

            It does not matter that we are not in it.

            What relevance does that have to pointing out that the Eurozone stood still for most of a decade while America grew 40%.

            It is that failure to deliver jobs and growth that are at the heart of the Eurozone crisis and why Brexit stands a reasonable chance of happening.

          • MrBishi

            We are in the EU and I pointed out that the performance of the EU has been OK.
            There is a serious problem with the eurozone but it is for the members to sort it out among themselves.
            Brexit will not happen all the while the Brexit crew rely on EU law being suspended to allow the UK to trade without tariffs with the EU.
            Brexit is all wishful thinking. I prefer to read the rules.

          • Grammar Grub

            The canard “world’s largest market” is totally misleading. It should be potential market – and this includes us. When we leave it will be smaller and then we won’t have to get the EUs permission to trade with India, Canada etc.

          • Scott Murphy

            project fear !!

          • MrBishi

            Only a fool does not know fear.

          • Clive

            Yes, Daniel Hannan explains it all well here

            http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/danielhannan/100186074/the-eu-is-not-a-free-trade-area-but-a-customs-union-until-we-understand-the-difference-the-debate-about-our-membership-is-meaningless/
            …Britain, despite its historical links to Canada, can’t sign such an accord. Nor can it press home the advantage of its growing exports to China (up 40 per cent in two years, as the PM delightedly told his party conference). In both cases, it must wait for the EU to negotiate on its behalf.

            We suffer disproportionately from the EU’s common commercial policy because we conduct an exceptionally high percentage of our trade outside Europe. In 2011, non-EU markets accounted for 57 per cent of our exports; the equivalent figure for Belgium was 22 per cent. The EU’s Common External Tariff averages between five and nine per cent – higher than Britain had in the 1920s.

            The optimum deal for the United Kingdom is surely to be in a European free trade area but not in a customs union. Again and again, we have been forced to sign less liberal accords than we would have negotiated bilaterally in order to accommodate some protectionist interest on the Continent….
            As I pointed out before, we have a balance of trade deficit with the EU which means any tariffs will actually work in our favour – which is why the EU will not apply them.

            The KPMG report is an exercise by the SMMT which is a pro-EU PR body but it is fatally undermined by Toyota’s announcement that it will remain in the UK whether we stay in the EU or not http://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/633808/EU-referendum-Brexit-Toyota-Akio-Toyoda-Burnaston-jobs

            So contrast a trade organisation report commissioned by a pro-EU PR body with the economic decision of the biggest motor manufacturer in the world

            Toyota did not need to make this announcement. It is a huge vote for UK manufacturing, labour relations, etc.

          • MrBishi

            None of Hannan’s points address my post and my forecast of the consequence of leaving the EU, it’s just the usual Brexit – “I can’t have it all my own way” – whine.
            As regards FTAs, even EFTA has conceded that the EU’s FTAs are superior to its own and want to adopt EU FTAs in future.
            The FTA that the EU is agreeing with the USA has taken 12 years to date and is still not finalised. Anyone can get a FTA from China which gives China access to everything and restricts access to all of her markets.
            Toyota did not say that they will continue to make cars in the UK simply that the company will remain. Toyota make more than cars.

          • Clive

            You seem to have ignored my quote about Toyota. Please read it again. Toyota’s manufacturing will remain in the UK and they did not need to announce it.

            The UK can negotiate its own unique deal with the EU which many other countries have. It is just a matter of commercial interest for us and the EU but the EU sell us more than we sell them so it is in their interest to give us a favourable deal. Whether it’s in our interest to give the EU a favourable deal is another matter. Our non-EU trade is growing very fast

          • MrBishi

            I provided a more reliable source of what the boss of Toyota said than the Express, which is a Brexit newspaper.
            You have simply returned to the Brexit argument that the EU must do a special deal with the UK even when I have provided the written evidence that they will not and cannot.
            You are in denial, quite normal on this blog.
            There is nothing whatsoever to stop our non-EU trade growing exponentially – BUT IT HASN’T. Why? Because the UK has one of the lowest productivity levels in the EU. We are not competitive apart from the motor sector which is all foreign owned.
            If we leave the protective arms of the EU we will collapse economically.

          • Clive

            I have also consistently pointed out – and you have ignored – that we would make a profit if we had a trade war with the EU because we have a balance of trade deficit with them.

            For that reason, tariffs would be irrelevant, they would not be applied. Please do not cite EU law. The French and Germans have blatantly flouted EU law in the past months and year, EU law applies only to the smaller nations and us.

            The Daily Express cites a quote from the Toyota CEO which is clear – so are you saying they are lying ?

            The alternative is that ITV News are a pro-EU organisation. Surely nothing new in the media.

          • Thanks Tank

            The Eurozone can’t afford to close trade with Britain.

            Most of the Eurozone is barely functioning at this stage, an economic basket case.

            If trade tariffs were imposed by the EU Ireland would have to leave immediately.

            The Netherlands and especially Germany would enter in to recession as their main trading partner was cut off.

            The Eurozone is hanging by a thread why would they start cutting that?

          • MrBishi

            EU tariffs are set down in the treaties and the EU would be unable to negotiate a special arrangement for the UK because of WTO rules.
            Those are the facts, I’m not interested in wishful thinking.
            BTW the EI is still the largest market in the world – hardly hanging by a thread.

          • http://townhall.com/columnists/thomassowell/ Cynical Hawk

            The EU sells us more, a strong PM would of course simply sate to the EU any tariff you have on us we will reciprocate, and hence the utter futility.

          • MrBishi

            What you suggest may be possible in lala land but not here on earth.
            The EU just like the UK operates with the laws as they exist.

          • http://townhall.com/columnists/thomassowell/ Cynical Hawk

            La la land, so just a childish remark, when it is entirely possible and the obvious course of action.

          • MrBishi

            The EU just like the UK operates within the law.
            You are deluding yourself if you think that any government will act ultra vires.

          • http://townhall.com/columnists/thomassowell/ Cynical Hawk

            Still justmaking statements as to why the UK cannot reciprocate tariffs, if it exists for those outside the EU there is no reason it cannot be reciprocated.

          • MrBishi

            I have never said that the UK cannot reciprocate tariffs, indeed, I have pointed out that the UK will have to invoke tariffs on imports or risk dumpling.
            This will add around £12 billion to the cost of running UK households so good luck with that one.

          • http://townhall.com/columnists/thomassowell/ Cynical Hawk

            Outside the EU and making trade agreements other countries would be able to export to us, and undercut inefficient Europe, it may even mean those things would now be produced internally, and people would simply make other trade offs; if your Merc now costs 10% more you will simply choose a different manufacturer if it is outside your price range, so no- things don’t stand still.
            Scrapping garbage employment laws, junk science, health and safety garbage yada yada all frees up economic resources, reduces costs. The UK becomes more efficient from the SMEs which are no longer shackled etc and the UK becomes more competitive and its old hard work ethic returns, as it used to be.

          • MrBishi

            You are talking rubbish.

          • http://townhall.com/columnists/thomassowell/ Cynical Hawk

            Bishis bollocks, only a public sector jobsworth like you could think that consumers wouldn’t make substitutes from goods that now cost more from the EU, so there is no higher cost. Everything I have stated is fact.

          • MrBishi

            Your latest comment does not follow from your earlier rubbish.
            Do you really think that the 30 million workers in the UK will vote to have their working protection legislation revoked?
            You really are a deluded halfwit.
            BTW I have always worked in the private sector.

          • http://townhall.com/columnists/thomassowell/ Cynical Hawk

            You claim to have worked in the private sector but you reek of civil servant. Only a blinkered fool can think that just picking something out like ‘working protection legislation’ and calling it a good thing when everyone else knows its a question of tradeoffs. If business and the public sector both have to employ small armies of bureaucrats to pander to the latest silliness then like Bastiats fallacy of the broken window we simply get less economic growth, and secondly as I have already pointed out, it is simply just cost which everyone just pays for and one of the many reasons the EU cannot compete on the world stage. Employment laws should be at the 1980s level. Neither does it necessarily’protect’ people, for instance particularly low skilled labour I know of a manufacturer where people work on a picking line, and an asbestos removal contractor, in both cases because of their low skilled nature at the end of every year just before Christmas people are simply made redundant and then re employed at the start of the new year to avoid getting into employment contractual laws. You create enough nonsense and business simply has to work their way around it.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            So you make wild accusations, as you talk about how you’re everyone and know the evils of workers rights. As as you talk about the sort of thing …well, they’re paid, your first issue.

          • MrBishi

            You are bizarre. You accuse me of not understanding the consequences of labour legislation and then quote a couple of examples where Tory watering down has allowed some employers to behave like barbarians.
            I repeat, 30 million UK workers will not vote to have their labour legislation dismantled.

          • http://townhall.com/columnists/thomassowell/ Cynical Hawk

            yes they will, its just costs which they’re paying for anyway. You can pay people all the maternity and paternity pay you want, in the end the money just runs out and your business cant compete. I could go through every piece of so called ‘protection’ and point out why it doesn’t work. SME’s for instance won’t touch women with a barge pole, particularly if its a technical job, there’s a good women why we find women bulked in the public sector.

          • MrBishi

            You are unpleasant, ignorant and appear to have a serious case of “urban myth diarrhea”.
            You spew out bogus data with no regard for its accuracy.
            Read section 6 of this publication:
            http://www.parliament.uk/briefing-papers/sn06152.pdf
            I don’t expect you to return and apologise to the many female readers of this blog.

          • http://townhall.com/columnists/thomassowell/ Cynical Hawk

            Excellent, a report which tells me nothing as I pointed out before it is dependent on the skill required, and SMEs will employ women as long as they already have children. You of course just ignored all the other points, because they are just common sense. Arbitrary legislation which people are paying for anyway, completely futile.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            So your propaganda is “fact”, as you think there will be magical substitutions. Right.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            Ah, so trade treaties are inefficient.

            As you find no car is better for the poor, right. As you want to scrap basic protection, ban science, have no comeback for workers you’d make suffer…as you think that burning out and making sick workers is “efficient”.

            Ah yes, the people struggling to afford basic food and shelter, your plan – the peons under your rich.

          • http://townhall.com/columnists/thomassowell/ Cynical Hawk

            Oh do be quiet you silly nanny stater, so called ‘protections’ are simply costs that are paid for by the customer or the employee depending on what we are talking about, its just self righteous cr*p devoid of basic economics. How would we cope? The same damn way we did before the EU and the work shy attitude of feigning sickness would go away.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            Ah yes, pro-free market people like me must be silenced by your crony capitalism, blah blah.

            Those evil bank accounts without £50 monthly fees for basic protection are an abomination fort you, you can’t raid as easily as you want. As you scream hate at the poor and disabled, and as you try and make up fantasies of a past world we no longer live in, in your anti-trade stance.

            Kevin Carson is right about you – “Vulgar libertarian apologists for capitalism…”

          • Leon Wolfeson

            Yea, it’s amazing how some people think the law’s not going to matter.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            Except, of course, by isolationism you’re raising the barriers.

          • Thanks Tank

            If that is the and no one but yourself thinks that then Ireland will be leaving shortly after Brexit and several EU countries will have a severe recession which may tip the currency in to a terminal decline. It wouldn’t take much.

            The EU will work around treaty obligations as it always has.

          • MrBishi

            How many lies do you want to pile on top of others?
            The EU does not break its treaties.
            The WTO will not allow special deals.

          • Thanks Tank

            Then Ireland will leave shortly after Brexit and Germany, Netherlands, Belgium, France will be tipped in to recession.

            As will Britain but even a slowdown at this stage would be enough to reignite the Euro crisis.

            It would not take much turbulence for Italy and Finland to crash out of the Euro.

          • MrBishi

            Dreamer.

          • Thanks Tank

            Another reply where you just throw in the towel.

          • MrBishi

            I am always happy to follow the arguments of a halfwit down until I get dizzy.
            You have nothing sensible to say.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            It’s not the EZ trying to close trade here.

            Ireland would simply raise the external border you want there. Etc.

        • Scott Murphy

          Get ready for a lot more lies.

          • MrBishi

            I have linked the documentation to “clive”, no lies, that’s the preserve of the Brexit campaign.

          • Clive

            Thank you – that is much better argument.

            I have given my reply below.

  • tenbelly

    The biggest security risk to our nation is a German.
    Her name is Angela Merkel.
    Dave is an idiot to think otherwise.

    • Marvin

      The proof is in the invitation of an invasion by 10million Moslems for starters, and Merkel will supply the sharp knives.

      • Mary Ann

        10 million is a bit of an exaggeration.

        • njt55

          Not when Turkey gets in

    • Leon Wolfeson

      Ah yes, democracy. Right.

  • Clive

    This whole pro-EU line about motor manufacturers moving elsewhere if we leave the EU is somewhat undermined by the fact that the same argument was applied when we did not join the euro – in fact nothing happened.

    There is also the fact that motor manufactures move their plants around all the time. It makes no difference whether we are in or out of the EU.

    • Fraser Bailey

      Nissan have stated that they will be here for many decades to come, whatever the outcome of the referendum.

      • MichtyMe

        What, selling or making?

        • Grammar Grub

          Both.

        • Clive

          Making and selling.
          They originally said they would take a dim view of a Brexit but then they changed their line. It is, as ever, what is in their commercial interest that drives them so it is not just terms of trade but the efficiency of the workforce, cost of the move, etc. and they have recently made substantial investments in the UK despite the whole Brexit issue.

          http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/industry/engineering/11842649/Nissan-denies-scare-mongering-over-Brexit-as-it-invests-100m-in-Sunderland-plant.html
          …-Asked if it showed that the outcome of the referendum did not matter to Nissan, he replied: “Nissan has been pretty consistent in what it said. We will support all future policy decisions that enable us to continue to build on our on our success.

          “If you look back at the last three, four years, the investments we have made are significant. I don’t think you can draw a line to what may have been said a few years ago to what we have delivered over the last three or four years.

          “We have made a commitment in terms of bringing a new luxury car to the plant in Sunderland, we are bring the Infiniti, which is a £250m investment, we’ve just announced £100m for the Juke and a £37m investment in terms of a new heavy press line in Sunderland.

          “The two things (investment decisions and the result of the referendum) are not completely linked, as we manage and judge our business on events that we understand.”

          Mr Willcox said Nissan would not reverse the Juke investment, but added that decisions are made on the competitiveness delivered by factories.

          “Our position in terms of competitiveness is driven by not only the situation in Europe in terms of whether we are in or out of the EU but more importantly the commitment of the people we have in the North East, the supply chain we have in the UK.”

        • Atticus

          Toyota this week released a statement saying they will stay in the UK whatever the outcome of the referendum:

          http://www.toyotauk.com/ecManager/userfiles/file/Why%20we%20located%20here.pdf

          • Leon Wolfeson

            Where’s the note as to the *scale* of their commitment?

      • Leon Wolfeson

        Shame about the scale, eh?

    • Leon Wolfeson

      So no difference if tariffs are paid or not? Hmm.

  • Scott Murphy

    The global economy is heading for financial a crisis as crushing as the 2008/09 collapse, which could be “very ugly” and foreshadow the end of the Eurozone, one of London’s senior financial analysts has warned.

    • jim_joystique

      Senior financial analyst is shorting the market? Who knows. Never trusted an “analyst” (the clue is in the first four letters of that word) and never will.

    • Marvin

      The Eurozone is a basket case crumbling before our eyes. How on earth are they going to employ these millions of migrants when their own unemployment figures are around 25/50%? How are they going to afford the benefits bill for these and millions to come in spring? Pandora’s Box was not meant to be fact.

      • Mary Ann

        Right now the Euro is doing better than the pound, it has gone from 1.43 Euros to the pound to 1.32 in the last couple of months.

  • Muttley

    Jihadis, Russia and crime are all going to be much worse if we stay in the EU. Just take the EU’s dealings with Russia over Ukraine. First the folly of encroaching so aggressively on the areas Russia regards as its sphere of influence, and then dangerous inertia and indecision when Russia invaded Ukraine. All the EU countries cared about was their energy supply and their economics. We might not be much better, but there is no benefit in being shackled to another useless organisation.

    As for jihadis, we have enough home grown ones, but we now find that Belgium and France and now probably Germany are in a much worse place. Merkel has no clue who she has let into Germany, and they will soon be travelling at will throughout Europe.

    I think if Cameron uses these arguments, he could be shooting himself in the foot.

    • Mary Ann

      And the underground bombers were all British.

      • Conway

        They may have held British passports. Whether they were actually “British” is another matter. A dog born in a stable doesn’t become a horse.

        • Mary Ann

          Like it or not, legally they were British.

          • Conway

            Did I say otherwise?

          • Mary Ann

            No.

  • Clive

    On the ‘fear of motor manufacturers moving away from the UK if we leave the EU’ here is a story from 2013:

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2366138/End-era-British-car-manufacturing-Inside-Fords-Southampton-factory-close-doors-final-time-century-car-production.html
    …It is estimated that more than 2.2million Transits have been made in Southampton in the past 40 years. Production will now switch to Turkey where, Ford says, costs are ‘significantly lower’ than anywhere in Europe, even after delivery charges.

    The plant in Kocaeli is much bigger than the one now closing in Southampton, with the Turkey plant producing around 185,000 vans last year compared to just 28,000 on the South Coast…

    Turkey is not in the EU

    • slyblade

      not yet

      • Clive

        The BBC seem to think so

        http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-hampshire-23432322
        …Staff at Ford’s Transit van factory in Southampton have finished their final shifts as it prepares to close its doors later.

        More than 500 workers were based at the Swaythling plant, which has produced two million Transits over 40 years.

        Production is moving to Turkey, where costs are “significantly lower” than in western Europe, according to Ford.

        Ford says its former factory workers have all taken redeployment, voluntary redundancy or early retirement….

        • fundamentallyflawed

          International Businesses will always move to the place that gives them the most profitable return.
          Globalisation over the last 40 years has seen the emergence of super corporations that have no loyalty to past or heritage.
          Hedge fund driven “investment firms” are exactly the same but on a more individual scale.

          • Clive

            Of course. The shareholders would expect nothing less.

            Nissan took the line that Brexit would affect their position in the UK then backpedalled when they were challenged on the commercial logic of it.

            http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/industry/engineering/11842649/Nissan-denies-scare-mongering-over-Brexit-as-it-invests-100m-in-Sunderland-plant.html
            …Asked if it showed that the outcome of the referendum did not matter to Nissan, he replied: “Nissan has been pretty consistent in what it said. We will support all future policy decisions that enable us to continue to build on our on our success.

            “If you look back at the last three, four years, the investments we have made are significant. I don’t think you can draw a line to what may have been said a few years ago to what we have delivered over the last three or four years.

            “We have made a commitment in terms of bringing a new luxury car to the plant in Sunderland, we are bring the Infiniti, which is a £250m investment, we’ve just announced £100m for the Juke and a £37m investment in terms of a new heavy press line in Sunderland.

            “The two things (investment decisions and the result of the referendum) are not completely linked, as we manage and judge our business on events that we understand.”

            Mr Willcox said Nissan would not reverse the Juke investment, but added that decisions are made on the competitiveness delivered by factories.

            “Our position in terms of competitiveness is driven by not only the situation in Europe in terms of whether we are in or out of the EU but more importantly the commitment of the people we have in the North East, the supply chain we have in the UK.”

  • Marvin

    Even the most uninterested person in politics in Britain must see that Cameron is totally conning the country with his asinine and useless demands. The strong assertive demands that he mentioned in his speech a few years ago have somehow gone down the plug hole, proving that he is a coward scared of his own shadow. The scaremongering about our security and safety is bogus as his inherent lying. We can and will prosper outside the EU but not with Cretins like him and his gutless government, they just do not have the intelligence to go it alone regardless of their futile education. Do not let him make a monkey of us, vote out!

    • Scott Murphy

      spot on Marvin. Cameron is a traitor just like Blair..

      • Mary Ann

        Cameron is not a traitor, he is doing what he believes is best for Britain.

        • Conway

          I doubt that. He’s doing what he knows will be best for himself – he is a politician, after all. The “little people” who will be affected by his continuing to yoke us to the EU and its open borders don’t even come on the radar until there’s an election looming.

          • Mary Ann

            Why do you think that staying in Europe will be best for Cameron, what’s best for Cameron at the moment has to be whatever is best for Britain, so he can go down in history as a success. It’s not as if he needs a well paid job.

          • Conway

            No, what’s best for Cameron is a nice, well paid sinecure in Brussels with a gold plated pension. If he keeps us in against our will then that will hardly be a success, will it? Correct, he doesn’t need a well paid job, but have you ever known any well-heeled person pass up the opportunity to make more money?

          • Mary Ann

            The man’s got 30 million pounds already, he doesn’t need a well paid job. Anyway he could make more money on the dinner party circuit, just as Blair did, more fun as well I should think.

          • Sarony

            You forget the aphrodisiac of power. Soros for example.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            Ah, the evils of non-scam pensions…as you fail to notice a Mr. Farrage.

            Your personalities have one vote, and even a referendum Cameron’s provided…

          • John Booth

            Farage is the single reason that Cameron agreed to a referendum, stupid.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            Well, if you think you’re that stupid and want to ignore the other factors…I can’t stop you.

          • John Booth

            Money, power, security in the bosom of Brussels, Mary. That’s what he wants, just like Blair and the Kinnocks.

        • Scott Murphy

          no he aint otherwise we would be out of europe already…he serves his masters in europe….just like blair did….

          • Leon Wolfeson

            Ah, so he’d have driven us across the Atlantic on steam jets.

        • John Booth

          Mary, look up the definition of ‘traitor’. Anyone who willingly gives away our sovereignty is, by this definition, a traitor. Just like Heath, Wilson, Major and Blair.

      • Marvin

        Thanks, but what seems to be just as bad is that this privately educated fool makes stupid basic asinine statements that have not been thought through. For example this new demolition of sink estates. No ideas about where to put the tenants while the work is done, will they be let back after, what about the people that have bought their flats, just like the bedroom tax, pasty tax and Osborn’s big hole he has dug about the economic tsunami of sewage coming down the track.

    • Clive

      You might note that all of the argument below by ‘Mr Bishi’ was the usual trade scaremongering which does not stand up to any scrutiny.

      That they are moving away from that suggests they know they have lost on it.

      • Leon Wolfeson

        “They”

        As you claim facts can’t withstand your isolationist zealotry, right.

    • Leon Wolfeson

      Yea, isolate the UK, ignore the facts, let your rich prosper at the expense of the 99%.

      • Marvin

        How do you think that the unemployable, feckless, the stupid and ignorant who left school long before they could spell their own names, the one’s that had made up their minds that the state would feed, clothe and finance their lives and their five offspring for life be funded if it wasn’t for the minority who start and run their own businesses and employ the people who are not so gifted.

        • Leon Wolfeson

          Ah yes, the hate on the poor, as you whine about your rich being inherently better blah blah.

          • Marvin

            I once thought that you may have been well read, but you seem unable to grasp the simplest of things. I did not say that the rich were better, but they provide money and jobs for the people who rely on them for the system to pay them for treating breeding as a way of earning.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            Well, try thinking today, not just once. I don’t try and grab people, no, well done!

            As you state very clearly your views on the superiority of the rich, as you hate on the poor and especialy poor children.

      • Sarony

        They already do. The gap between rich and poor is widening at a very fast rate.

        • Leon Wolfeson

          And speeding that up is good why?

          • Sarony

            A classic non sequitur. I implied nothing of the sort.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            Implied? No, implications, it’s a simple consequence.

  • Conway

    … the ‘In’ side is comfortably ahead at the moment — and the rule of thumb in referendums is that the change proposition, ‘Out’ in this case, needs to be ahead by double digits if the campaign is to win.” Not in the latest polls it isn’t and anyway, staying in means change as well as the EU will increase its movement towards a superstate. It’s obvious Dave wants to get the referendum over and done with asap – EU membership is getting to be a worse deal by the minute. ISIS is even more of a threat thanks to open borders. The EU market share is declining. Toyota has just come out and said it will definitely stay even if Brexit happens, thus nullifying the “oooh, all the industries will leave” argument. That only leaves him the postal vote.

    • Thanks Tank

      As the Scots saw, as Ukip saw in Oldham the postal votes are to be watched.

      • Mary Ann

        A lot of postal votes will come from the 2 million people Britons living in Europe, they will be voting to stay, anyone living in Europe who votes to leave will be an idiot, private health insurance is too expensive for most, apart from all other advantages they get from being European citizens.

        • Conway

          I will ignore your strange phrase “people Britons” as I think you changed your mind before you got shot down. Not unless they’ve been living there for less than 15 years. After that, they lose the franchise. You actually admit that the reason for staying is to milk the NHS! I challenge you to list the other advantages they get from being European citizens (apart from the ability to access our Health Service).

          • Sarony

            When relatives settled in France 20 years ago they did the honourable thing and gave up their NI numbers and paid health insurance. The Brits they’ve met over time obviously think they are bonkers as their compatriots have all kept their NI numbers assigned to an address of friends or relatives in the UK.
            My relatives were grateful they did what they did. When one of them fractured a leg, the after-care was superb with home visits twice a week for intensive physio. The leg healed with no residual limp. On the NHS you’d be lucky to get physio once a month.
            As they have got older, with the onset of chronic and serious health problems, the Brits are finding it ever more of a burden to get back to the UK for treatment and some have had to sell up and move back at considerable financial loss.

    • Mary Ann

      ISIS are far more likely to radicalise those already living here than bring people in, the Paris attackers were home grown as were those on the tube.

      • Conway

        If we can get rid of the radical preachers (how long did it take to finally remove the last one thanks to ECJ influence?), there is much less likelihood of radicalisation. Add to that, an end to the failed multi culti experiment and things will start to improve.

        • Mary Ann

          Daesh use the internet. Perhaps we should ban the internet as well.I certainly think that all church schools should be banned. If parents want their children to attend a daily act of Christian worship, or any other they can get off their backsides and take them to Church/Mosque or whatever else.

  • Lady Magdalene

    Franklin D Roosevelt ” the only thing we have to fear is…fear itself.”

    HE was a Leader. Cameron is a charletan.

    There is nothing to fear from leaving the EU.

    • sidor

      Cameron isn’t charlatan. He is an EU agent of influence installed by Brussels to control the territory. Gauleiter.

      • Richard Baranov

        You are crediting him with intelligence. It is quite obvious from the way he blunders about and constantly makes false claims that he is not competent enough to be a Gauleiter. It is far more likely that Cameron is simply a useful idiot for the EU.

        • sidor

          A Quisling isn’t necessary clever, and an idiot isn’t necessary a patriot.

          • Richard Baranov

            Don’t agree, a quisling requires intelligence. Watching Cameron demanding change when he is with European politicians is excruciating. They are clearly embarrassed by him. An embarrassing quisling is clearly not useful.

      • Mary Ann

        I vaguely remember there being a general Election which was won by the Tories with Cameron as leader, or are you saying that the General election was fixed, in which case why didn’t they fix it for Labour to win, after all they are more in favour of Europe at the moment than the Tories.

        • sidor

          I have to correct your vague understanding of the British election system: a voter votes for a person which is to represent the particular community in the Parliament. Voting for a party takes place in the continental system of proportional representation. Try to comprehend it before you vote next time.

      • Leon Wolfeson

        Ah, that conspiracy.

    • Leon Wolfeson

      …For the very rich. Right.

  • Bluesman_1

    More secure with the oncoming results of citizen Merkel’s action?
    More secure with the HRA and ECJ still at large to confound justice with law?
    More secure with the application of the EAW?
    More secure with the principle of Ever Closer Union?

    It is not that we do not know what we will face outside of the EU, rather it is that we have precedent to expect what will happen should we remain and none of it is good.

    Article 50!

    • Mary Ann

      What have you got against the EAW, do you want European criminals running around our country, do you want the man who attacked your wife escaping to France?

      • WTF

        They already are along with our own imported low lifes.

      • Conway

        I don’t want anyone to be extradited without the presentation of any evidence, just because the paperwork is in order, to languish in a foreign – let’s say Greek, as there is already evidence of that – jail for two years while a case is built. This person was wholly innocent. We had habeas corpus for centuries – the EAW has ditched that protection. We also had extradition treaties for centuries. Life didn’t suddenly begin in 1973. I shall also point out that before we joined the Common Market, we co-operated across Europe through Interpol and that worked well. Co-operate with Europe, trade with Europe, be friends with Europe, but not be dictated to by the undemocratic EU. As you live in France, you should be aware that continental law is based on the Napoleonic Code and is much more restrictive of personal freedoms than Common Law.

        • Leon Wolfeson

          Funny, take that up with the UK government…remember a certain treaty with America?

          And the ECHR is based on Common Law, so…

      • davidshort10

        You can be arrested under a EAW without evidence. This has been against the law in Britain since Magna Carta, God bless her!

        • Mary Ann

          People are often arrested in this country and later released without charge.

          • davidshort10

            They certainly are but the police have to have evidence, even if they have trumped it up. The EAW allows people to be arrested and charged without evidence. That might be acceptable to some Europeans but we fought two world wars last century so that it would not happen to British people.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            “police have to have evidence”

            Naive.

          • davidshort10

            No, it is the law, except in the case of the EAW.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            More naive…

          • davidshort10

            Oh dear, go home to your Mummy with whom you still live at 40 and try to be on time to sign on at the dole tomorrow.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            Ah, censorship from you.

            As you get confused – I’m not you. And I don’t share your naive trust in the big friendly state.

    • Leon Wolfeson

      Ah yes, the basic protections of the HRA and ECJ.
      You can’t torture, have to pay workers, etc.

      Not good for you.

  • Scott Murphy

    can anyone explain why as to why Russia would become a threat when we become an independent?

    • Mary Ann

      Because Scotland will have another referendum and get rid of trident?

      • Conway

        It will have to shift for itself then as we’ll still have Trident – or do you think that Scotland runs the UK? NATO has kept the peace (despite the EU) and we’re members of NATO.

        • Mary Ann

          The EU was started to keep the peace in Europe, NATO is a favourite argument for those who want to leave and don’t wish to give credit to the EU for anything, Your arguments for leaving would be improved if you allowed the EU a little credit, it would make them look more balanced. Think, there must be something good about the EU otherwise so many people wouldn’t want to stay.

          • njt55

            Enlighten us, oh wise one, as to what is so good about it.

          • MickC

            I’m not so sure many do want to stay. The EU is basically yesterdays idea of tomorrow. The trend nowadays is towards the break up of unions, including the UK. Whether that is good or bad remains to be seen….

          • Mary Ann

            That has more to do with the recession, when times get difficult people look towards their own, as things improve people will look outward again.

          • MickC

            Possibly, and I hope probably true, but I doubt things will improve quickly, and the EU doesn’t look as if it knows how to do that, or that it even wants to try, in common with all other governments….

          • MickC

            The EU rather failed with Yugoslavia though. As I recall it was Germany’s recognition of Croatia(?) that set the breakup rolling. Other countries did not wish to do so.
            The EU was intended to control Germany; it is now controlled by Germany. It could hardly turn out otherwise.

          • MRB

            The EU was started so the fallen members of Germany and Vichey France could reclaim power of Europe.

      • MickC

        Oh, let’s hope so! Trident is costly, and useless.

    • MickC

      No, because Russia is not a threat at all. The idea that the Russian army is going to coming boiling across the North European Plain is nonsense. In fact, it probably always was.
      Russia, as ever, because of its history is looking for security, and to sell its oil and minerals. Extending NATO when assurances had been given otherwise, was yet another Neocon co**up.

  • Patrick

    how Cameroon can argue that leaving the EU will make us vulnerable to jihadists, when millions of potential jihadists are marching into Europe at this moment in time. History has also shown us that the children of these immigrants are prone to a bit of jihadism as well.

    • Tom Cullem

      And bear in mind that once the REMAIN vote succeeds, there will no longer be a brake on Cameron’s willingness to do whatever Frau Merkel orders him to do: starting with agreeing to those annual mandatory quotas of ME migrants. Once that IN vote relieves him of electoral backlash, expect another 100,000 in addition to the 20,000 he’s agreed to.

      • Mary Ann

        We don’t have to take them.

        • WTF

          Under EU rules if they have EU citizenship, we have to.

          • Conway

            It seems that the average punter, let alone any “kippers”, knows more about how the EU works than Mary Ann!

          • Mary Ann

            When I want my information about the EU I don’t read the Express.

          • Conway

            Nor do I. When I want my information about the EU I go to the EU documents.

          • WTF

            The point is Merkel doesn’t even have to try and make us take in non EU migrants, she can give them a German passport and a free one way plane ticket to Heathrow from any German city.

          • Mary Ann

            That takes years, and by the time they have that they will have homes, jobs, learnt the language, children in school, friends, why should they give that all up just to come here where they will not be welcome.

          • WTF

            You’ve answered yourself, thats the whole point isn’t it !

          • Mary Ann

            So you agree they won’t want to come here.

          • WTF

            Not at all, it all depends on the cost / benefits as happens with all
            peoples choices. If you aren’t willing to leave your country of birth,
            you’ll generally pick the area in your country that best serves your
            preferences and its no different on which country you wish to live in
            where permitted.

            Having been born and lived in the UK for 58 years, then moving to Spain for 10 years and now the USA, I’ve weighed up all the costs benefits of three different countries. The UK & Spain brings some financial benefits due to pension rights of my wife
            and I as does the USA, Spain had none but was cheaper to live, etc, etc. Before moving from one country to another, I weighted the pros and cons to make a judgment call as no country is perfect, they all have their benefits and downsides.

            I’m certain that migrants from third world countries are no different and will short list those countries where they can finagle right of residence and obtain the highest welfare benefits as that’s human nature.

            I should correct my earlier point that there is no such thing as EU citizenship but rather citizenship of a EU country. It is they who issue passports under their rules NOT the EU, sohow long it takes is up to them. If I was Merkel and wanted to dump my problem of rape gangs, I’d fast track them to a German passport, restrict their benefits and ‘encourage’ them to flood to the UK for benefits.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            Ah, so you’re a hypocrite. Right.
            Well, says it all.

            As you think Merkel will restrict German’s welfare to aid your conspiracy theory. Hmm!

          • WTF

            Hypocrite, not at all, I weighed up the cost benefits of countries based on cost of living, environmental & climate, not welfare benefits as I have never been in receipt of any welfare benefits in my entire working and retired life. The real hypocrites are people like yourself who want to invite in tens of thousands of economic migrants to make yourself feel good but expect others to pay for it. Go ahead and sponsor a migrant if you want, but you pay for them.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            The second you considered crossing a border you became a hypocrite, of course, as you claim your parents never claimed child benefit, you never used UK schools or the NHS, etc.

            As you whine I want a functional economy, with trade, etc.
            As you want to lower my tax bill now…hmm!

          • WTF

            There wasn’t child support when I was born and only 25 pence a week for the 2nd child (my brother) later. It was mid 60’s long after I was at work and paying tax that family allowance as such was introduced. In any respect, it was funded by tax payers like my mother & father (and me). Like wise I paid significant tax and NI for my two kids who now also work and pay taxes unlike a non English speaking out of work Muslim male with 4 wives, 12 or more kids living off the UK tax payer. Health, education, housing was all funded by my parents taxation as I did for 40+ years, I wasn’t a free loading migrant coming into the UK and neither was my Indian neighbor who I spent many hours socializing with as well as holidays to Spain. Subsequently I lived in Spain for 10 years claiming NO benefits and then the USA.

            I don’t want to reduce your tax bill, I want to pay down national debt that’s been increased in no small way by all these free loaders. I pay more than my way including my wife and always have.

            Thats the difference !

          • Leon Wolfeson

            Ah, you’re not from here. Right. (It’s been called other things, but Britain’s had it for a long time…)

            As you want to cut more and raise the debt, as you hate on the British poor, right. As you note your crossing borders and thus being a hypocrite… the second you step across that border, you show you’re just blindly hate the Other, and the poor.

          • WTF

            Where is here ? I was born in London of British parents perhaps you can advise us where you were born as your anti-British stance in a few posts is interesting if not informative.

            Do you have problems understanding what I said before, it was pay down national debt.

            Nothing I’ve said is hypocritical as I practice what I preach, its liberals who demand special privileges for an ethnic group, expect others to fund it and yet be immune to the negative effects who are the real hypocrites.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            I’ll stick with “Britain”, as I don’t intend to make it easy for you to locate me. I’m not that dumb, of course.

            (If you really care, you can search my old posts…)

            I don’t share your stance, as you demand more high spending Torynomics, right, and as you ignore the fact you crossed a national border, hence utterly discrediting your stance.

            Then you blame “liberals” (are you American?) for everything. As you ignore you’re the one demanding special rights here, on workers backs. Your clearly expressed hate of the poor…

          • WTF

            Are that dyslexic that you can’t read my post ?

            I was born in London of British parents, that makes me British by birth and I still am. Also I said pay debt down not spend more. The only thing you got right is that I do blame liberals for most of the ills befalling us.

            Here’s a typical snippet of liberals at work in America.

            The people of Flint, MI are suffering due to the water supply being polluted
            but the Democrats make it political by blaming the Republican Governor.

            Funny how the left never learn to get out of the green house before
            throwing stones or if it isn’t broke don’t fix it. It turns out that if
            the water supply had remained coming from Detroit rather changing to
            the River Flint there wouldn’t have been a problem. The town of Flint ?
            You guessed it, they made the change despite the old pipes being
            unsuitable and made of lead, and its run by Democrats !

            Liberals at work all over the western world, you can’t even make it up !

          • Leon Wolfeson

            So you ignore what Torynomics did.

            As you continue to oddly blame the LibDems… and whine about America…

            Conspiracy theories, you do make it up.

          • WTF

            You have no idea what I really think, you desperately want to believe what suits your narrative despite it being at odds with what I’ve been saying and you’re darting all over the political landscape in a disjointed rambling of a lunatic. You even lack the courage to plant a flag on your heritage unlike myself so its clear you don’t really believe in anything that matters. In fact, you have all the classic signs of a “baiter” but with that massive chip on your shoulder I can’t figure out if its race, religion, color or political pot you’re stirring without adding anything factual to this discourse. Bottom line, you’re a loser lost in his own world and out of touch with reality.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            So I can’t read your posts, you say, as you scream “UR MAD”.
            That is a far right, totalitarian and social darwinist view – accusing those of other views of madness, to be precise.

            As you want to ensure separation between myself and my identity as a British person.
            As you admit you want to take a “chip” out my shoulder with your axe, as you ignore the fact I’m not the one hating here, as you demand I be like you…

          • WTF

            I’m just pointing out your serious character flaws but you’re the one who has to live with them.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            Ah, you’re trying to project at me.

    • Mary Ann

      Nearly all our Muslims come from outside Europe, and Cameron is not taking non EU migrants from Europe.

      • WTF

        The EU is just a transit camp from non EU countries to the UK for Muslims. Just look at Calais & Dunkirk, its 95% Muslims from non EU countries some of whom are even walking through the tunnel and given asylum.

        • Mary Ann

          There are a few thousand as for all those young men unless they have children they would be better off staying in France, the benefits are more generous, the only ones who would be better off crossing the Channel are those with children. Of course if we leave the EU they will stop manning our border at Calais, why on earth should the French help us out, the border will revert to Dover and we won’t be able to throw out the refugees, although of course we can throw out the economic migrants once they have be processed.

          • WTF

            You’re talking rubbish about the French helping us out. The “border” control at Ashford to go into France or Calais to enter the UK was purely a logistic convenience to avoid delays entering France or the UK, nothing more. If we left the EU, we’d just carry on as we already do at Portsmouth, Poole and many other UK ports of entry from mainland Europe, the French aren’t helping us out at all.

            If the French wanted to do anything constructive they’d remove all those migrants at Calais & Dunkirk and protect their beleaguered French citizens suffering from this onslaught of criminality, disease and abuses. We already check passports at point of departure including Calais and without one, migrants aren’t allowed on planes, trains or boats, where’s the problem ?

      • Patrick

        nearly all muslims are from outside Europe, because Europe resisted nearly a thousand years of Islamic conquest. Unlike the middle east/ north Africa/east africa/ large parts of Asia ,which were all conquered.

  • Tamerlane

    Sadly enough generations of school children have been indoctrinated in PSHE classes about the wonders of the EU there’s always an in-built advantage that’ll carry these b@st@ards through.

    • Mary Ann

      And I bet these children have a far better knowledge of how the EU works than most kippers.

      • Conway

        You’d lose your bet, I suspect. I used to teach European Studies. A lot of the stuff the EU sends out is light on facts and not exactly open about the end game.

        • Mary Ann

          I used to read comments from kippers on Yahoo, most of them were rubbish, so easy to disprove, clearly gleaned from the Express and similar toilet paper.

          • sidor

            OK, share with us your understanding. It is absolutely clear that EU is not an economic organisation. It is a political organisation. Could you please explain us its political goal which its founding fathers, starting from Petain, avoided to discuss? For what end is Britain supposed to sacrifice its sovereignty?

      • Scott Murphy

        if you mean the children have been brainwashed, then yes, you are correct..

      • sidor

        These children don’t have memory and history knowledge to recognise the nature and the origin of EU: the Third Reich. Most of them are probably sure that in WWII Germany was an ally of Britain against the Russians.

      • Tamerlane

        Since I support neither I wouldn’t know. You’ll have to go fishing elsewhere.

      • St Louis

        You’d have thrived in the DDR, I suspect. They were good at brainwashing kids.

  • Tom Cullem

    Cameron would campaign for REMAIN, as one wag on another paper commented recently, if Germany sent U-boats into the Dover Strait tomorrow morning. He doesn’t want to be the PM who “lost” the EU, when, if he had the imagination of a four-year-old, he should be aiming to be the PM who took the UK out of the EU before it crashed and burned, which it will within a decade, if not sooner due to the migrant crisis. He’s eyeing not the future of the EU, but at those cushy slots on global company corporate boards that TTIP and Brussels are keeping warm for him after 2020.

    Lemmings.

    • Mary Ann

      The EU is more likely to crash without migrants, a birth rate of 1.6 is a demographic time bomb. Why do you think the Chinese have altered their one child policy.

      • WTF

        How does that work then when we become an Islamic state as its not exactly working that well in Syria right now !

        • Mary Ann

          The birth rate among the European children of Muslims is much lower than that of their parents.

          • WTF

            That’s probably a result of the much reduced gene pool that costs the country a fortune in health care costs due a much higher rate of physical & mental disabilities that small gene pools produce. Fertility rates lower, premature early deaths are all features of in breeding whether you have two legs or four.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            Ah, so based on your eugenics fantasies…

          • WTF

            Far from it, they’ve know about in-breeding & birth defects for a very long time from our own royal family historical past centuries ago. But don’t let the facts get in your way of your denial or alternatively provide a link which states that in-breeding doesn’t cause a surge in birth defects..

            http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-513388/Minister-Muslim-inbreeding-Britain-causing-massive-surge-birth-defects.html

            http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=1a8_1240370379

            http://www.nairaland.com/1448664/muslim-countries-found-highest-rates

            http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1392217/Muslim-outrage-professor-Steve-Jones-warns-inbreeding-risks.html

            and of course its Islamophobic to report the facts

            http://theopinionator.typepad.com/my_weblog/2008/02/uk-muslim-leade.html

          • Leon Wolfeson

            Your personalities have known all about eugenics right, Saudi. I’m not in your pseudo-scientific denial.

            Feel free to link a scientific paper, as you simply hate those not like you. As ever.

          • WTF

            There’s a ton of references on the internet linking in-breeding within mammals and the higher birth defects due to a reduced gene pool. In fact the clearest example of deliberate in-breeding is with some dog breeders and puppy farms where due to the demand to produce ‘perfect’ specimens from an appearance point of view, it many times has the undesired effect of mental issues and congenital bone problems.

            Generally speaking, nature in the wild has a large gene pool and the strongest survive the best to provide more strong off spring but if human interference reduces that large gene pool either in the wild or domestically with dogs, there are consequences. It is no different with two legged mammals and the stats prove this.

            In actuality I’m all for diversity within the worlds gene pool because it creates healthier individuals both mentally & physically and the more integrated & mixed the melting pot, the better we all are. Its the non integration and limited gene pool of Muslim communities in the west that creates their higher birth defect problem among many issues. Other ethnic minority groups that have integrated in the west have seen their previous birth defects due to a small gene pool drop significantly thanks to integration. I have Indian friends in the UK for example who I’ve partied with many times and stayed at each others homes several times, they don’t have serious birth defect issues. The only disdain I have is towards those to dumb and bigoted to see the truth here but I don’t expect you to understand that.

            http://www.as.wvu.edu/~kgarbutt/QuantGen/Gen535_2_2004/Inbreeding_Humans.htm

          • Leon Wolfeson

            None of which supports your wild eugenics claims. You have no idea, it’s clear, of the actual scale of any issues and are trying to hijack science for your bigoted hate.

            As you fail to notice your small, isolated far right community, etc, and as you maunder about “other issues”, and spout off nonsense about birth defect rates in “other communities”. I’m sorry for the people you’ve attempted to fool by your pretense, as you disdain yourself.

            As you try and take things back down the dark road of the reich.

          • WTF

            Deny the stats all you like, in-breeding from a small gene pool has
            statistically been proven to cause an increase in birth defects of
            virtually all living species. This is main stream acknowledgement of the
            facts not some right wing conspiracy. The reason we have so many issues
            in the world today is the denial of facts by people like yourself. You
            seem to have missed my point that rather than wanting a Third Reich
            program for a super race, it would have produced the same result as the
            in-breeding we see now. In-breeding is in-breeding whether done by the
            the Third Reich or Muslim communities, you end up with an increase of birth
            defects just like many pedigree dogs.

            You probably think the worldis flat because no one has proven it to you, but live in your make believe world as the rest of the world are waking up and demanding action rather than BS from people like you.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            I’m not denying anything except your lack of understanding of the scale of issues created.

            You say denial by Jews like me… as you do in fact name your old friends, etc.
            I don’t think the world is flat like you either, as you demand hate and force, rather than the BS of a law-abiding society…

      • MickC

        I have always questioned the “demographic time bomb” presumption. Throughout my life the progess of both technology and better health has rendered many jobs superfluous, and I see no reason why that should stop in the future.
        Many problems have been created by our rulers believing in stasis, rather than dynamism. A current example is the raised pension age. Yes, 65 was old at one time, now it isn’t. But the jobs those people were trained to do are vanishing, or already have. That cannot be cured by immigration, unless the pension Ponzi scheme is to indefinitely extended, for immigrants also age.

        • Mary Ann

          Better health care has led to an extended dependency for old people.

          • MickC

            For some old people certainly, some lead independent lives for a long time. I believe that will be the case for more and more. Just anecdotal, I know, but it seems to be the case.

        • MRB

          The “demographic time bomb” is a myth. It’s a short term phenomenon created by the baby boombers and the one generation after that. Removing the over 60s from the UK population pyramid shows that the UK is actually fine. Population will continue to rise, and with better pension contributions rates and removal of a non-contribution based benefit system, we have no problem.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            Except pension contribution rates are falling.
            As you argue that the poor don’t need welfare,right.

        • Leon Wolfeson

          Life expectancy is falling.

          As you claim there will be workers in the future.

      • Patrick

        We could do what every country outside the west does. Employ people to do jobs Britain needs doing, and after so many years they return home. I have lived in Egypt for 9 years, the idea of getting an Egyptian passport is impossible ( only Egyptians can get Egyptian passports) every country does this unless the majority of people are white.

        • Leon Wolfeson

          Ah, so behave like a few highly restrictive counties.

      • MRB

        UK population needs to reduce anyway. And with increased automation in the coming decades of most, if not all, menial labour jobs such as farming/factory work even some healthcare, we’ll need even less. Combine that with climate change altering available water and food supply, and the fact that the UK at the moment only grows enough for 60% of the population, a falling birth rate is exactly what we and most northern european countries need. And as you say, white people’s fertility rate is 1.6 (1.8 in the UK actually). Blacks are around 3.5 and asians 4-5. 1/4 of all school children under 5 are muslim or from arabic/asian descent. Which means, by 2030 the White British population will be around 55-60% of the population. Try holding off on screaming prayer towers and sharia law then. And if you have young daughters, prepare for the worst.

        • Leon Wolfeson

          So, who dies first?

          Then you make up nonsense…

    • Leon Wolfeson

      Ah, so he should be looking to crash and burn Britain’s economy quick, or we’d be part of a growing bloc….

  • Frank B

    Bring on the United States of Europe, lets just make it democratically elected and accountable to it’s people then we can actually have some clout in the world again instead of being lap dogs to the US and scared of the Russians/Chinese. I know this will be unpopular but not all Brits are against the ever closer union. I for one like the people and cultures of Europe and would be more than happy to stand with them.

    • sidor

      In 1938, quite a number people in Britain wanted a more close union with the Continent having been scared by the Russians. That was also the main argument of Quisling in 1940. And marshall Petain too was talking about United Europe. Nothing new.

    • Mary Ann

      I agree with you.

    • Conway

      I like the people and cultures of Europe, too, that’s why I don’t want them subsumed in the USE, whose aim is to destroy said cultures.

      • Mary Ann

        Why do you believe that the EU countries want to get rid of their own cultures, it will happen to a certain extent but not because of the EU, it will be large corporations, MacDonald’s are springing up all over Europe and the young are using them. The only good thing about MacDonalds is they have clean toilets.

        • MRB

          have you read the EU constitution. It’s driving aim is to eradicate any sense of nation or individual culture. Very similar to a certain german party in 1938.

    • RingedPlover

      The character of Europe is changing beyond anything we could have imagined. Will the ‘people and cultures of Europe’ be the same in ten years time?

    • njt55

      You should read what Peter Sutherland says. He wants to eradicate national differences and make us all the same. So much for your “cultures” of Europe. If Sutherland and his ilk get there way we will become a light brown mono-culture.

      • Mary Ann

        We don’t have do as Peter Sutherland says, it is up to us whether we lose our culture, if it is strong enough it will survive. The real question is, which things about our culture are worth keeping, Cheese rolling, Birthday parties at McDonalds, November 5th?

      • Scott Murphy

        true

        • Mary Ann

          Peter Sutherland is one person, so what! He isn’t the PM

          • MRB

            Peter Sutherland is the UN representative, and he has the job because those in charge agree with his point of view.

          • Scott Murphy

            neither are you

    • jonlivesey

      The obvious question is simple. What prevents or prevented an independent UK from cooperating with Europe without being part of the EU.

      The answer is nothing at all. There are all kinds of European bodies we are members of, like CERN, Airbus, the European Weather Organization, the European Court of Human rights, that the UK works with and which have nothing much to do with the EU – although the EU is, as usual, happy to take credit for them.

      If you think EU membership is required before you cooperate with other Europeans, you have been brainwashed.

    • St Louis

      We mostly like the peoples and cultures of Europe but that’s got nothing to do with political union with them.

  • Andrew

    I am really surprised that Conservative MPs put up with this loathsome man’s support for the destruction of our nation. It really is baffling. The Conservative Party of 100 years ago would have turfed him out as soon as they seen him begging the Poles and Hungarians for support to tweak our benefit laws.

    • Adrian Shaduwa

      Haha. “A 100 years ago”??? You’re bringing 1916 Britain in to this? Slap bang in the middle of the Great War? How is that even relevant to our post-democratic, neo-liberal, Eastenders & X Factor whilst staring at my iphone, fake tan and beer Britain?

      • Andrew

        No I was just making a point about the decline of the Conservative Party. Cameron would’ve been kicked out long ago if the party was anything like it was in decades gone by. Begging foreigners to tweak your own benefits policy is nothing short of a national embarrassment, and for this to happen under the watch of a Conservative Prime Minister is particularly surprising. But what’s more surprising is that the party’s MPs don’t seem to care.

        I take your point about relevance. Perhaps I should have used a later date, but my point about the decline of the Conservative Party remains.

        • Leon Wolfeson

          Yes, he’d have been far too far right for Thatcher. And?

          As you ignore the fact he can do anything under the treaties except discriminate against EU nationals – he’s chosen the one way which involves his embarrassment.

          He’s simply a bad negotiator – he could well have got an agreement for reimbursement of welfare costs, for instance.

    • MRB

      They like him because they got a tory majority under his leadership so won’t remove him.

  • Adrian Shaduwa

    In / out of the EU is the least of our problems. People getting angry about the wrong stuff. You’d be better of focusing on something like TTIP , because that could truly bring this country to it’s knees.

    Like I say, it really is the least of our problems. It’s a big distraction.

    • Conway

      Has it not occurred to you that TTIP is an EU construct?

      • Adrian Shaduwa

        Yes it has. I think the US might have a hand in it too! I guess the point I was trying to make is that there are many important issues affecting the UK that are totally over looked, not debated, just ignored. They’re often hidden in the detail. The TTIP, I believe, is a good example of one of these issues. It should be getting a much higher level of scrutiny than it is currently. Is Cameron kicking off about the TTIP in his renegotiations with the EU? No. In fact, his 7 point plan calls for greater ‘free trade’ with North America.

        There is an obsession with the in/out debate. I just think we ought to get a bit of perspective. The EU is not the cause of all our ills. Not by a long shot. And this isn’t from someone who is for / against it. I just think there are more important things to be debating.

        • Conway

          The most important things at the moment are freedom, rule of law and democracy. In order to retain even a semblance of these we need to be free of the EU. Once we can run our own lives, we can get rid of TTIP and vote out politicians who introduce legislation that doesn’t suit us (either the voters or the country as a whole). It’s as though you have a massive infection, but are worrying about a particular boil.

          • Adrian Shaduwa

            We don’t live in a democracy, but anyway, I don’t want to get hung up on that point. You could argue that the EU in itself is ‘a boil’, in that it itself s only part of ‘the infection’. The conflation of private and public interests, and the institutionalised corruption that is present in our government (and the EU, and the US, and in every other western “democracy” that you care to mention) as a result, will ensure that the TTIP steam rolls its way through, with little or no democratic process taking place. Unless we do something about it.

  • WTF

    I’d argue we have enough home grown Jihadist problems of our own without importing more from the EU Islamic Apartheid that is most of Europe. That, if nothing else should encourage us to leave Europe to become a full blown sharia super state that parts of it already are whilst we purge the Islamic cancers that we have.

    • Mary Ann

      Pardon, what a load of……..

      • sidor

        If you don’t mind to live under the sharia rule, why don’t you try to join ISIS? Women are in great demand there. Pardon.

        • MRB

          Women? You mean girls.

      • RingedPlover

        I understand that the Moslem population of Brussels could soon touch 40%.

        But then I think that WW3 is already underway!

      • WTF

        Stuck for words are we when parts of Sweden, Germany and even the UK are under sharia law already in case that one passed you by. Its an Islamic Apartheid when those of that faith get special treatment just like white South Africans did. Its well documented on all the special treatment and positive discrimination they get at the expense of the majority and if you can’t see it, I’ll provide URL’s to back my assertion.

  • Bella Sassin

    Experimental new British political satire.

    https://youtu.be/9stnQ2pqirI

  • Scott Murphy

    Asked if he felt Britain was full he said: “Obviously I do. It feels as if it is full. My question is, ‘am I alone’? If I am being sensible I will wait to get the picture.”

    Mr Edmonds found support yesterday from leading businessman Duncan Bannatyne who said: “No you are not alone Noel.”

    Ukip MEP Jill Seymour added: “Noel, we are full – our major infrastructure whether that be roads, hospitals and schools are at breaking point.”

    NOEL EDMONDS,IS SOMEONE WITH A BRAIN, WHICH IS MORE THAN YOU CAN SAY ABOUT CAMERON.

    • Mary Ann

      Why are you bringing a TV presenter into the argument, is his opinion any better informed than yours or mine, forget cleb. culture, the issue is far too important.

      • Scott Murphy

        just showing how full we are, how everything is at maximum capacity due to uncontrolled immigration…even the celebs are fed up with it..whilst a member of the eu we cant stop it…. when will it be too much??

  • Tom Dixon

    Whilst I agree that we are about to see Project Fear Mk2, I disagree with your conclusion that Project Fear Mk1 was a success, it wasn’t. A more positive campaign would have led to another 5+ points to the No Campaign, after all as you mention above the no change argument is worth a few points on its own. Take those few points away and the Scottish result could have been much closer. The coverage of the referendum south of the border seemed to lead people to believe that the whole of Scotland wanted out, at least thats the impression I got every time I ventured south. In fact the majority up here was always in favour of the status quo, it was the No campaigns to loose and they came pretty close.

    The narrow margin of victory, compared to the previous referendum and historic levels of support for independence gave such a boost to the SNP that they trounced Labour in the election. Had the referendum been won by a bigger margin would the losers have had such a boost? and the winners (Labour) got such a drubbing? I don’t think Salmond ever dreamed of full independence until Cameron called his bluff and called the referendum, he would have been happy with Devo Max, it was Project Fear that gave him hope. Now the nightmare of Scottish independence, for those of us who live here is a real prospect, the genie is out of the bottle and no amount of negative campaigning will put it back.

    • ChuckieStane

      Tom, Whilst disagreeing with you that indy would be a nightmare, there is a lot of truth in what you write.
      Initially Cameron and Darling (among many others) declared “of course Scotland could be a successful independent nation” then went onto explain why they believed the Union was better. This approach was quickly abandoned and Project Fear swung into play with month after month of relentless attack on every aspect of Scottish life. The aim was to convince Scots that Scotland was a total basket case and to scare old folks that they would lose their pensions.
      If the pro-EU camp follow a similar tack and insist the UK is hopeless on its own then the public will similarly resent what is in fact a direct insult on their collective abilities as a nation.

      • Tom Dixon

        I totally agree that project fear Mk2 will rub a lot of people up the wrong way.

        I don’t share the positive view of independence, I just don’t see how it could work. Well I’ll rephrase that, I don’t see how it will work as well as staying part of the union will..

        Did you read this: http://rattle.scot/snp-independence-is-dead-start-again-or-shut-up

        Supports what I have been thinking all along, and comes from a senior party insider.

  • Scott Murphy

    JEAN-CLAUDE JUNCKER has refused to rule out sanctioning a massive advertising blitz to keep us in the EU. And this would be funded by Brussels.

    The move is hardly unexpected as we well know the disdain that Eurocrats have for the democratic process. Juncker and his ilk – all unelected bureaucrats who wield great power over most of Europe – simply do not understand the importance of respecting the will of the people or allowing voters to come to their own conclusions.

    They don’t care that David Cameron was elected with the promise to renegotiate our relationship with Brussels and then to hold a referendum.

    They will think nothing of employing all manner of grubby tactics in an attempt to subvert the process.

    Anybody can see that taking our money then spending it on propaganda designed to influence our referendum is outrageous.

    Yet all the Eurocrats care about is making sure that British taxpayers’ money continues flowing into their coffers.

    Juncker does not give us enough credit. We are more than capable of seeing through his false claims.

    And the use of such dirty tricks will only further enrage a nation already sick to the back teeth of these arrogant bureaucrats.

    • The Reincarnated Sausage

      They can and will rig the vote too.

      But the swing to the NO vote might be too big to hide and their game will be up.

      Then we can hang them all. Bring it on.

      • Scott Murphy

        yep

  • UnionPacificRX

    The only thing scarier than what Cameron can come up for the UK to stay with the EU is London’s policy of letting in anyone who just wants to get into the UK. unbridled entrance of refugees brings up nightmares of invading hoards at the gates of the city.

    The natural impulse is slam the gates shut. In the case of the UK, get out of the EU before the European Union becomes a continent of refugees and asylum seekers from every corner of the world.

    • Mary Ann

      Cameron has refused to take any of the refugees who have made their own way to Europe, so not unbridled.

      • UnionPacificRX

        Mary

        I Googled “Refugees and Asylum seekers entering the UK” and you are right to a point. UK has far less than other European nations but my feeling is that native British still find that an intrusion especially after I heard some of them yell out in London that they intend to make England and Europe “Muslim” is uncomfortable.
        Here is one stat:

        “Asylum applications (excluding dependents) rose from 4,256 in 1987 to a peak of 84,130 in 2002. They stood at 24,914 in 2014.”

    • Mary Ann

      It is not London’s decision as to whether people are allowed into the UK.

      • UnionPacificRX

        Mary
        you also sent me an comment with “It is not London’s decision as to whether people are allowed into the UK.”

        Please clarify. Is 10 downing street responsible for the entry of aliens into the UK?
        Is Westminster Abbey and her ministers responsible for the entry of aliens into the UK?
        How about Cameron? the Royal Family?
        If not them then who?
        Are they not located in London? or am I wrong on that?

    • Toby Esterhase

      In case you hadn’t read anything (!) – it already has.

      • UnionPacificRX

        Got your comment, Then mine only makes that much more sense and has that much more urgency. I am aware it is an ongoing issue. What must be drummed in is that it can be reversed.

  • davidshort10

    Politicians always like us to be afraid. Michael Crichton wrote a whole book about it, ‘State of Fear’. But if there is anything for British people to be fearful about in their daily lives it is not Muslim suicide bombers but feral and violent youths and older people on the streets because they don’t have a job and are angry. The absence of a police presence of course makes it worse. They almost always get caught due to CCTV but that is little consolation to the relatives of someone who has been stabbed to death by such people.

    • Mary Ann

      Another scary thing which we rarely think about is drunken drivers, people even complain when they have been caught over the limit.

      • davidshort10

        That’s true but I think the incidence of ‘mild’ drink-driving has gone down because of social pressure. This was when people had a few drinks and drove home in the evening. It’s not acceptable now. But there are people driving around during the day totally out of their minds. I know of one very serious incident and I had to stop myself finding out his identity and taking the law into my own hands. These people carry on driving when drunk even when disqualified.

  • The Reincarnated Sausage

    The recent events in Paris and the massive uncontrolled influx of migrants into Germany and other parts of Europe might be the cloud with the silver lining

    It might end up being the thing that makes people realize the political elite is suffering from collective insanity and the EU is a political construct working totally against the interests of ALL the European people, not just us here in the UK.

    I think Cameron is doomed. I think the vote will be similar to the general Election. They wont get the result they bargained for.

  • Scott Murphy

    i think the mass sexual assaults on New Year’s Eve in the European cities of Cologne, Hamburg, Düsseldorf, Bielefeld, Berlin, Frankfurt, Stuttgart, Vienna, Salzburg, Zürich, Helsinki by ‘african & middle eastern’ migrants is enough to put anyone off being ‘european’ ?

    • rob232

      I don’t think people will take those things into consideration.

  • Whitegold

    Where was the ‘project fear’ article during the Scottish referendum?
    Where were the ‘Cameron is planning to bully’ stories then?
    Wait till it starts
    Your Job threatened
    Your pension threatened
    House price collapse
    The Queen ‘concerned’
    Food and energy ‘to treble’
    Wait for it.
    Then you will feel the frustration of a Scottish ‘Yes’ voter.
    Fun it ain’t.

    • Mary Ann

      It’s called democracy, and I bet Salmond is thanking his lucky stars after the collapse of the oil price.

      • MickC

        But a country is more than just an economy, surely? Even with the oil price collapse the Scots could probably have made independence work; tough, yes, not impossible.

        • jonlivesey

          So what? They voted on it and rejected it.

          • Whitegold

            By a small majority.
            Then.
            This is now.
            They may vote again, in 18 or 20 years or so.
            I guess the people will decide.

          • MickC

            The point I was making was in response to Mary Ann’s comment about Salmond being thankful, presumably for losing the referendum, because of the oil price collapse. I doubt he was, and I think Scotland could be independent regardless of the oil price.

            Yes, of course they rejected it.

          • MickC

            And no I don’t want Scotland to leave the Union, but it is a matter for them, not me.

          • Mary Ann

            It’s about time they got over it, unless of course we leave the EU, only 16% of those living in Northern Ireland want to leave the EU

            http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-33806065
            I wonder if they will want independence as well if we choose to leave.

        • Whitegold

          There are loads of countries which are independent yet don’t have oil.
          It’s not a prerequisite for independence.

          • Mary Ann

            But it helps to achieve a good standard of living.

      • Whitegold

        Hmm. Dunno if oil was ever an issue, especially when it comes to a decision as to wether you want to be in charge of your own back yard.
        Yes, there has been an oil industry here in Scotland since the 1960s or so.
        But try asking someone in the poor areas of Glasgow or Edinburgh or Dundee if oil has ever done them any good?
        Its a popular Westminster line, and it’s been repeated often enough so I forgive you for falling for it.
        But the case for independence wasn’t built on it, despite what you’ve been told to believe, however surreptitiously.

        • jonlivesey

          “Even with a cautious estimate of oil prices remaining at $113 a barrel, it’s clear that Scottish oil and gas could generate three times more than official estimates.”

          Alex Salmond, quoted in the Dail Record 12 December 2014. Now please do tell us again that this was just a “Westminster line”.

          And don’t you love that word “cautious”?

          • Whitegold

            Sure oil a commodity like orange juice coffee whatever – it’s price fluctuates.
            Governments accross the world use current commodity prices to evaluate and forecast, not just Alex Salmond.
            Will you be on here banging on about the price should it rise to $500 a barrel in 5 years?
            Be that as it may, the people were not voting on the basis of an oil bonus. It was a vote for Scottish independence. Not oil, or SNP, or Salmond etc.

          • ChuckieStane

            And even more David Cameron’s ‘Vote No and there will be a £200bn North Sea Bonanza’ – how that promise going?
            Offshore may be one of Scotland’s most successful industries but it is also one of the UK’s. The glee with which Unionists are (prematurely) dancing on the grave of the UK oil industry (including tens of thousands of English jobs is as distasteful as it is bone-headed.

  • Cuba

    Russian attacks Syria
    2016…… Horror……

    https://youtu.be/RNDziG4_tu4?list=PLx3rka76NWipRUaE65fE66411U6XxKCIr

  • Cuba

    Crazy Obama Wants More Chaos In Syria https://youtu.be/0QI0EXm6twQ

  • Ozfan

    In terms of fear, I think the outers will have plenty of ammunition:
    – fear of being ruled by people we can’t remove (or even identify – I admit I wouldn’t recognise Junckers!)
    – fear of mass immigration via EU
    – fear of terrorists from EU
    – fear of spreading social unrest from EU countries (Greece, Germany)

    On the other hand was it fear that kept UK out of the Euro or just common sense?

    • Mary Ann

      If Cameron hadn’t changed groups in the EU parliament he would have been able to stop Junker being chosen, but he opted out and got egg on his face. You have to be in to get what you want.
      Terrorists these days come via the internet.
      Poll tax, we can do our own riots.

      • https://www.teepublic.com/user/ECM ECM

        This is a lot like saying a steer needs to submit to the abattoir so it has a say in how it’s divvied up.

      • Hamburger

        He would not have been able too. He would have been outvoted by his own fraction. I do however think that Junker’s election was an own goal by the federalist.

    • John Andrews

      I’m terrified of the EU.

      • Leon Wolfeson

        Well yes, of course. Including of course the British, who are EU…

    • Leon Wolfeson

      “fear of terrorists from EU”

      Yea, those tourists and business visitors…

      • Brian Jones

        With the doors closed to the terrorists the business visitors will come even more. With the death of the Euro obvious to anyone with half a brain many international businesses are going to invest in the pound to be on the safe side.

        • Leon Wolfeson

          Ah, so with the doors…you’d close to business visitors, right.

          As you talk about death…oh, you want to be expelled and want to trick simple people. Sad.

  • CrypticMirror

    I’m voting for out regardless. That way when we come crawling back in ten years time to be readmitted, we won’t be allowed insane opt outs on social policies or common currency. An out vote will mean that in the long run we will finally get the full EU benefits we’ve been denied for years.

    • Whitegold

      The social policies in the EU are actually fine.
      The currency is also good.
      Pretty much stronger than ours.
      Out is no magic wand.
      Immigration you say?
      Bit late for that.
      Horse, stable, bolted, comes to mind.

      • sidor

        Haven’t you seen that the common currency is an economic disaster? Didn’t you notice the long depression in the Eurozone? The common currency is a purely political trick to force the federalisation of EU with all the power in Brussels. At whatever economic cost. Pure bonapartism.

        • Mary Ann

          Right now the common currency is doing better than the pound.

          • Partner

            what a silly thing to say. Been to the south of Spain recently where unemployment is 45%?

            Want that for the UK and ginning up sovereignty to Germany?

          • newminster

            Indeed. 10% better than at this time last month!

          • sidor

            The Eurozone GDP has never reached the level of 2008. That is, the last 7 years the Eurozone was in economic depression. This is a direct result of the common currency.

          • Brian Jones

            Do stop talking sense, it’s completely wasted on here.

      • Harryagain

        You want some of this in a town near you?

        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gMGQAbEA23Q&feature=youtu.be

        • newminster

          Scaremonger.

          • licjjs

            So how do you think the ‘islamic world’ actually became islamic?

          • Autolocus

            By the use of force.

          • Brian Jones

            Tell that to the ladies of Cologne.

      • WTF

        Not once Islamic Apartheid really takes hold, all those perceived benefits will vanish.

      • Autolocus

        And Brits shafted in all senses of the word

    • Mary Ann

      While I support the sentiment, I think the treatment is too drastic.

      • CrypticMirror

        Possibly, but I have got sick of always voting for the lesser evil. From now on it is full evil or no evil, no more half measures or cheating “compromises” that allow business as normal.

    • Harryagain

      Don’t worry.
      Without us, the whole rotten edifice will collapse in a lot less than ten years.

      • newminster

        Collapse quicker if we stay in and work at it!

  • evad666

    Europe tried it and it has unfortunate side effects like shell fish.
    Will not try it again.
    Time to leave.

  • Partner

    god I hate the EU in all its forms.

  • Harryagain

    Some interesting info about Merkel here.Gives some clue about what the crazy cow is up to.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fi0dffrSmPI
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UYOXAG9S0lw
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LUeNoK7Jo70

    • WTF

      Did we export mad cow disease to Germany ?

      • Harryagain

        Makes you wonder!

    • Hamburger

      Oh dear, try putting it in context. She was reacting to some overzealous triumphalism from her party secretary when they won the last election.

      • Harryagain

        Looks to me more like she despises the German flag and German values.
        Still what can you expect from an East German aparatchnik?
        (Yes I know she wa s born in Hamburg).
        The woman is evil and deranged.

        • Hamburger

          Her party secretary was behaving like a small boy who had got the keys to the chocolate shop. ‘Mutti’ wanted to stop him behaving like a fool.
          I don’t think she is deranged, just lost the plot.

          • Harryagain

            Anyone that invites in millions of Muslims is barking mad.
            And then she expects to inflict them on the rest of the EUSSR???????
            As Orbis said:- “A German problem, let them fix it.”

            Still, it’s a German trait to think they know best.

            I ‘spect she’s never travelled in the Middle East and North Africa.
            This behaviour is normal for them. I have witnessed it personally having travelled widely there.

            Google “Taharrusha Gamea”.
            Oh and look for “mass rape” on Youtube.
            Keep your sick bucket to hand, it’s not nice.

            And there’s bound to be hundreds of jihadis among them.
            You can keep them it Deutschland!!!!
            History will marvel at the lost (German) race of Europe.

            (There’s lots of other stuff about them too that you’re going to discover shortly.) None of it very nice.

            Have fun.

          • KenT.

            Merkel fiddles while Germany burns.

  • Bonkim

    Cameron will lose the referendum.

    • licjjs

      I hope you are right!

  • flydlbee

    All those wanting us to stay in the EU are doing it for selfish reasons; they see what Britain can contribute to Europe. None of them are considering what the British are getting out of it. The result of a stay vote will be more British contributions, and fewer benefits. Better that Britain stops being the “well man” of Europe and looks to its own interests.

    • Brian Jones

      I notice that all the attacks by the eurosceptics are aimed at Cameron despite the fact tghat the whole left wing political mob are also trying to frighten us into staying in.

      • Harryagain

        Camoron should be Eurosceptic, that’s why.
        You can expect Corbyn Dioxide to be crazed.

  • Oddsbods

    Mr.Cameron will continue to lie, procrastinate and twist and turn until he sees things going his way. No-one with a modicum of common sense could ever believe that this dyed in the wool EU supporter would really put Britain’s membership into question.

    • KenT.

      Cameron can lie and procrastniate as much as he wants to. The people of the UK do not trust the man, and whatever he says regarding the EU will not make any difference to my long standing decision to vote for Brexit.

  • licjjs

    Mr Cameron has shown himself to be so untrustworthy that any points he makes will be filtered through deep distrust among the people he might be addressing. What he says about anything is like water off a duck’s back to me.

  • Andy Reisner

    The whole thing is being staged by Cameron and Co. He may get some crumbs of assistance from Merkel and Co. Then he will tell the UK what a wonderful deal he has brokered. Then the scaremongering of the world coming to an end if we leave the EU will intensify as the Referendum gets closer. It’s laughable that Labour and Lib-Dems say they want to make change ‘from within’, but how so, without the agreement off all other members ? Get real people, and ask yourselves about the unelected EU bureaucrats, do you trust them ? Ok, some may say we cant trust Cameron either, but at least he is British.
    Perhaps it comes down to trusting more, the lesser of two evils. The EU can imply that they will accede to our demands if we vote to stay in, then when precisely nothing happens, we wont be able to do anything about it. That said, I think we will be conned again with a slim majority voting to stay in. That’s when the ‘fun’ will start.

  • http://my.telegraph.co.uk/voteregime/ The Prez

    This is a pretty good summation of the factors at play, and I think that if In does win, it will be through fear. In which case, people will deserve exactly what they get when Britain is damaged by the EU’s eventual, inevitable collapse.

    My hope is that the stars align on our side and the next economic downturn plunges the Euro back into crisis just in time for the referendum. Cameron losing, then being forced to resign would be a nice bonus too.

    • Brian Jones

      So I take it that if Cameron has to resign in the case of an exit vote so will all those left wing MPs who are also going to be canvassing for a stay vote.

      • http://my.telegraph.co.uk/voteregime/ The Prez

        Like national spring cleaning!

  • Watt

    Even if Brexit trashed the economy it would still be worth it. Better to be poor but sovereign than dictated to by a Franco-German axis. Or have we lost so much confidence in ourselves that we are content to delegate governance to foreigners.

    • Harry Pond

      But it certainly would not trash the economy. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7sEC2nwHQ7Y

      • KenT.

        Thank you Harry, my vote for Brexit is now assured.

    • Leon Wolfeson

      Ah, poverty for the 99% is worth it…for you, fiscally. The mere British can lose out.

      As you want to steal Sovereignty from Parliament, check.

      • WTF

        Firstly it would not trash the economy as the imbalance of trade is in our favor. Secondly the government is elected by the people and if we want out then its democracy at work. WTF are your rambling on about ?

        • Leon Wolfeson

          So you show your ignorance of trade.

          As you push for majoritanism, and want to end Parliamentary Sovereignty. I’m not posting your posts, rebel!

  • 4194

    Obviously Cameron will use scare tactics once he gets the expected EU deal, indeed formerly ardent eurosceptic Cabinet ministers are publically lining up to back him in anticipation, the latest being Nick Boles MP on last nights Question Time panel. The Brexit campaign wants dramatic change by leaving the EU completely and therefore needs provide a convincing alternative for the UK economy, but so far nothing solid. Otherwise as Tory colleague and ex-cabinet minister David Davis MP and europhobe said this week, voters will mostly decide the referendum on the security of their own job.

    • KenT.

      Eurosceptic MP’s are being muzzled by Cameron until the outcome of his negotiations with Brussels. Europhile (idiot) MP’s are free to spew out their bullshite and lies without contradiction. This is Cameron’s idea of democracy. The ‘out’ campaigners don’t have the funding to adequately publicise their arguement.

  • Andy JS

    The more members of the national and international elite there are telling the British people to vote Remain, the more likely they are to vote Leave. They’re obviously too stupid to realise this.

    • Brian Jones

      Such a common statement on these pages , if you disagree with me you’re stupid. Well Sunshine let me tell you something. I’ve been around for 77 years and seen the loss of sovereignty and the constant barrage i#of directives from Brussels that’s changed this country almost beyond recognition, I also have a brain of my own and don’t swallow all the misinformation that the or anti pro EU factions spout but am more than capable of making my own decision . Ex miner , soldier and HGV driver but a Tory voter because I am not interested in becoming a little European . I seem to have a thing that is becoming quite rare in this country now, Pride in being British.

      • Meltonmark

        BJ – I wonder if you realize the extent to which mis/disinformation and propaganda saturate the Western media? Try reading UK Column [focuses on British news items] and US online news sources such as 21st Century Wire, Daily Sheeple, SHTF, Newstarget, etc. Do this for just one day, and see how you feel at the end of that exercise. You might also care to access the interviews given by the KGB defector, Yuri Bezmenov, available in the Daily Sheeple.

    • KenT.

      Thats true andy, you don’t need any qualifications to become an MP, and no skills, ability or intelligence to become a Lord.

  • David Mortimer

    The EU Parliament can’t be held to account by UK citizens.

    • Brian Jones

      Nor it seems can our very own unelected House of Lords.

      • Toby Esterhase

        The House of Lords serves a purpose, the EU parliament does not.

        • Brian Jones

          I was comparing the unelected House of Lords with the unelected EU Commission and as you say The European Parliament is nothing more than a very expensive talking shop.

        • KenT.

          It seems the only purpose the House of Lords serves, is to kill off any bill that is not Lefty/Liberal enough for them, and to line their own pockets.

      • Msw3681 sw

        You can say the same thing about the tories too. They were not elected by the majority. UKIP got a huge number of votes, yet dodgy dave and his cohorts, got in. How does that work? Vote rigging, voting slip boxes going missing, only being able to write in pencil at the voting locations, 200,000 postal votes mysteriously going missing in Hastings…… dodgy dave only getting 24% of the votes.

    • Autolocus

      Or indeed any of it’s other citizens

    • Meltonmark

      All UK Laws are subservient to EU Law. If a UK law is passed that in some aspect contradicts or conflicts with EU Law, the UK law has to be brought into conformity with the EU version. If a Public building in Britain wishes to fly a flag, the EU flag must be given prominence, either by location or size, but in any case, it must be located in a prominent position.

    • KenT.

      This is exactly why we must all vote to leave.

    • Sarony

      Even more so the diktat-issuing, unelected EU Commissioners

  • The Reincarnated Sausage

    Cameron will end up doing what all banana republics do

    Rig the vote

    They’ll do anything to keep “The Project” live

    ANYTHING

    • Toby Esterhase

      Look at the enormously ridiculous steps they’ve taken to keep the euro going!

    • John M

      That is the real plan. Even if the public vote convincingly for us to leave, Cameron will then announce that it will take years for the divorce to be implemented whilst new legislation and trade agreements are made etc. This might even conceivably take as long as ten years

      He will say that the will of the people have spoken, that it will take ages to make it happen, and that in the circumstances it will be only fair to continue the dialog wuth the EU and try to improve the deal.

      And that, my friends is how we will never get Brexit even if we vote for it. Cameron will just kick it down the road until the EU demands yet another referendum. You can bet on it

    • Leon Wolfeson

      “They”.

      Always “They”.

  • xoanon

    I’d say the ‘fear’ aspect comes from the opposite direction, with the EU inviting the Daesh supporting Turkish regime to join the union, who in their right minds would vote to remain in. Apart from ISIS supporters that is, which way is Dodgy Dave voting again?

    • Meltonmark

      Problem-Reaction-Solution. Western politics for the last 50 years. Including the War on Terror.

  • Tony

    ” the in side is clearly ahead the moment” lol,

  • John M

    I’m amazed. Do these people really think that the final Scots vote was anything to do with thier efforts? I would argue that aside from the efforts of Alastair Darling the mainstream political players were completely uninfluential and pathetic.

    The decision was driven by the public’s comprehension that Alex Salmond’s economic plans didn’t remotely add up, combined with the increasingly racist, bullying and viscious behavior of everyone in the Scots Nats camp.

    • Jimmy Jim

      then why did the 3 main party’s come to Scotland when the polls stated the SNP were in front and why did they then go on about the devo max

  • John Booth

    To get an ‘out’ vote, we have to bang on, ruthlessly and continuously about:

    a) Cameron being a serial, proven liar
    b) The Muslim invasion of Europe and the need for our own border control
    c) A vote for ‘in’ is NOT a vote for the status quo, it is a vote for an eventual supranational government, a ‘United States of Europe’ and the UK being forced to join the Euro

    • Leon Wolfeson

      Ah, so you have to behave as you think Cameron does.

      As you ignore we have our own border control, and are not in Schengen.
      As you spin lying conspiracy theories.

      Right.
      So, you admit clearly that the truth is your enemy.

      • John Booth

        Incoherent, vacuous nonsense. Learn English if you want to post with English speakers.

        • Leon Wolfeson

          So, your post is as you admit “Incoherent, vacuous nonsense.”.

          Then you prove it, by demanding censorship. Against a native English speaker, unlike you, who speaks natively whine’n’cheese…

          (Tip – You are being mocked)

          • John Booth

            I really can’t be bothered with you any more – no intellectual challenge at all. Child.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            You’re a Child? Well, explains a lot.

      • WTF

        We have border checks not border control you moron. Any EU citizen except perhaps for a known criminal (not sure if that even works) has the right to enter the UK from another EU country. Schengen is the removal of border checks between adjacent states who signed up to it, it would appear that your truth is somewhat lacking as usual.

        • Leon Wolfeson

          Ah, anti-disabled hate as you get confused.

          In your world, no country has border control if they allow anyone over as a right (including, of course, their own citizens). As you claim your lies are truth, and admit you’d block the borders entirely.

          • WTF

            Just google EU rules and you’ll find out what the difference between border controls and border checks really mean. In fact, since some male migrants have overloaded the system and gone on a killing spree, even France has re-introduced border controls. I don’t know about your European travels but I regularly traveled from the UK to Spain by road even before customs limits were abolished for personal goods and subsequently when Schengen came in between France and Spain (and others), so I have first hand practical knowledge of what it means. Have you ?

            No one, not me, not Trump has ever suggested shutting or blocking borders nor would I wish to, we just want sensible controls. We impose health controls when Ebola kicked off and its prudent we do the same since Paris and other attacks from Muslim men. No one unless they are a pedophile, rapist or terrorist supporter, apologist or denier would suggest that wide open borders are good ideas but I guess that’s your position. If that’s the case, you’re a worse danger to people than the actual perps !

          • Leon Wolfeson

            Yes, I’m sure I can find the latest Stormfront rant if I tried. Not interested.

            As you admit you’re a hypocrite, right.

            As you lie about what Trump’s said, too, and nobodies like you…as you want those welding torches out, right. As you demonize those who are not terrified of the other and are not completely anti-trade.

            As you of course see British people not just like you as the “worse danger”, in your frenzy, in your extremist hate preaching…

          • WTF

            Keep up the pointless rhetoric if that helps you as there’s no factual content in your ad hominem rants !

          • Leon Wolfeson

            So you blame me for your posts, as you decry any sort of reply…

    • CheshireRed

      Absolutely right re the Euro. There’ll be a new Treaty within a few years demanding EU membership = using the Euro, with no exceptions, and (as ever) it’ll be a fait accompli. Leave.

      • John Booth

        Thanks. Keep spreading the word – LEAVE!

  • Jimmy Jim

    Cameron has lied to the English voters did he not state he wanted English only votes but is willing to sell England into more powers from the EU he lied to the Scottish voters with his more powers to Scotland only to put a veto bill on anything passed by Hollyrood Westminster has the final say this man will lie cheat and bully to get his own way

  • Meltonmark

    Gosh…so much propaganda in one article. It would need a book to refute it all.

  • Doc

    F### Cameron and the EU.

  • myles strong

    here begineth the hatred, hypocriscy and bile!

  • fred flintstone

    Our masters know best. We are but mere ants that are guided along and milked for all we are worth. As long as we do not step out of line we are left to pay our taxes on everything we buy, earn eat or do.

  • Ednank

    Thinking people know we belong in the EU, but te EU must develop a culture of change as the world changes around us.

    • marzipanlil

      Naïve.

  • JonathanBagley

    Sadly it will work, as it did in 1975.

    • KenT.

      You are wrong Bagley. People are wiser and better informed this time.

    • WTF

      Events in Europe are likely to change all that as the EU is fracturing big time at the moment due to male Muslim migrants.

      • Leon Wolfeson

        So you ignore your far right’s contribution, right.

        • WTF

          My eyes aren’t wide shut like yours, wake up and smell the coffee !

          • Leon Wolfeson

            “wide shut”.

            Mm-hum. And no, I don’t need to throw away civilization and hate, thanks.

    • Sarony

      You have discounted the internet and social media, now a force to be reckoned with. At the crudest level the core message for the Out campaign is: Do you want to be ruled by totaliterians Merkel and Juncker?

  • gerronwithit

    How does “comfortably ahead” translate into a current 6 point deficit, and believe me that is going to grow and grow despite what Gove, Cameron, little George and even Boris might say.

  • UnionPacificRX

    Headlines says it all. No one should be “scared” into doing something. That is what Con men do. What would be scary is due to EU regulations England is flooded with asylum seekers.

    • Leon Wolfeson

      No, in fact that’s not due to the EU.
      It’s due to “The Convention relating to the Status of Refugees”. A 1951 UN treaty.

      But facts.

      • UnionPacificRX

        That is extremely interesting. If this UN treaty was ratified in 1951 why does it not apply to Muslim nations? I know they take in refugees, massive numbers of them. but we are dealing with asylum seekers who once in European nations, want to become citizens.

        If that treaty allows that then why is it not applied to the 50 odd Muslim nations or the 50 odd African nations?

        I do not know of any region in the world (outside of Europe, the New world to Australia) that allows millions of people just enter and become citizens of that nation. Do you? and if not then why?

        • Headstrong

          That is because, since you immigrated from Sri Lankan shores to the US, Bernie, for you the world ends right there. You really ought to read more. You do know that Turkey and Pakistan host the maximum number of refugees in the world? It would shock you to know that India hosted 10 million Bangladeshi refugees during the war – 90% stayed back and became naturalised citizens.
          Do open your mind, Bernie….

          • UnionPacificRX

            stop sniffing the glue head s mut.

          • UnionPacificRX

            did not even bother to read your dribble hindu head ache
            but Turkey, Pakistan and India hosted refugees from their cultures
            being a moron like you Head sn ut you would not understand that millions of Muslims and Africans are settling in Christian Europe where they are pillaging r*ping the women, and brutalizing Europe. This is not Europe’s problem. you need to stick to your village politics of India and leave the world for more educated people head nut. you are way out of your league here head job

          • Headstrong

            “I do not know of any region in the world (outside of Europe, the New world to Australia) that allows millions of people just enter and become citizens of that nation. Do you? and if not then why?”
            That was your question, no?
            And I suppose your “league” is one that professes to make the kinds of comments you make –
            Quote – “Oh one more thing. Sooner than later there will be bomb attacks in your Hindu India. WHEN (and not if) that happens and HINDU women, children babies and adults are BLOWN UP I am going to celebrate. DIE DIE DIE YOU FILTHY HINDUS I HOPE ISIS GETS TO YOUR INDIA AS SOON AS POSSIBLE. I WANT TO SEE THOUSANDS OF YOU HINDUS BLOWN UP”
            http://atimes.com/2015/10/after-dodging-war-crimes-probe-lanka-focuses-on-truth-reconciliation/

            Wonderful, Bernie – you’re actually urging ISIS?

          • UnionPacificRX

            lol. you are like a fish out of water in this forum and you are looping your comments wobbly head. Go worship an erection.

        • Leon Wolfeson

          It does. Your ignorance of it is sad.

          You don’t know much about much of the world, I see.
          As you get confused as to what happens with refugees in the West, for instance.

          Then you profess a lack of knowledge about rights of return.
          Countries with them include, as well as Western nations, Iran, China, Japan, Kazakhstan, Turkey…

          • UnionPacificRX

            You do not
            A refugee is not some nameless formless entity you moron. Japan does not have refugees. the few they do are not allowed citizenship. Go read my comment. I admitted that there are large refugees
            but
            they share a common culture Iran to Afghanistan to Pakistan have millions of MUSLIM refugees in MUSLIM nations. What part of that do you not get?
            If China has refugees they are NOT allowed to become citizens as is happening in Europe and the US.
            Again. Muslim nations should handle Muslim problems.
            Again. If Christian Europeans or Jews wanted to seek refuge in MUSLIM NATIONS they will NOT be even admitted. let alone given citizenship.
            are you a liberal? for you sound like one

      • UnionPacificRX

        Here is a thought. Since we do have this treaty maybe the Russian Jewish population who are fleeing persecution, can settle in Iran.
        Or
        Israel should let in as many Muslim refugees under this treaty.

        • Leon Wolfeson

          So you don’t think, and don’t know what that convention says. Right.

          • UnionPacificRX

            So apply that convention to the Middle East. will they allow Christians and jews into their lands if we seek refuge. Since you brought up this convention which according to you was ratified in a UN treaty. then it applies to the members of the UN. what part of that do you not get? why should Europe or the US have an open door policy
            while
            the rest of the world has a closed door policy. Do not even bring up refugees for we are facing people wanting citizenship.

      • Mark

        Refugees and migrants are treated differently in international law.

        The EU most certainly are instrumental in sending asylum seekers to the UK, the quota is being negotiated, despite these negotiations contravening the EUs own Dublin rules which stipulates asylum seeker fingerprinting, registration, and offer in the first safe country or the asylum seeker becomes an “illegal”

        Britain is also unable to control her own borders whilst in the EU, all EU citizens have access to the UK, this means all the asylum seekers and migrants that 27 other EU states decide to give passports to.

        Facts eh?

        • Leon Wolfeson

          Indeed, and you’re fighting the 1951 convention, and?

          As you ignore what the Dublin Convention says about countries.
          As you call for closing the border, over and over, thinking that isolationism will help.

  • alistairofabuhabi1951

    I expect all those Tory Brexit MPs who have dined out for many months on their virulent opposition to remaining in the EU are feeling rather queasy as they desperately try to find reasons for their volte face…I trust the Speccy will name and shame them!

  • Patrick Roy

    In this century, smaller, more agile countries will prevail. Giant unions of countries don’t really make sense and the corresponding red tape and regulation make the EU just an albatross that holds all the countries back. There’s just no benefit to it.

    • Leon Wolfeson

      So why are countries joining Supranational Unions?
      Why is there no correlation between red tape and economic success?

      Why do you feel trade is not a benefit?

    • Dr Strangelove

      Does Washington and Beijing know?

      • Patrick Roy

        They do.

  • KenT.

    WHEN the UK votes to leave the EU, Cameron must resign.

  • James Horton

    Posh boy Dave is trying to secure his own future with a nice little job in Brussels.

    • WTF

      Wouldn’t it be ironic and we left and there wasn’t a job.

    • Harry Pond

      He doesn’t want or need a job in Brussels. He’s angling to stay in because he’s a politician and politicians love lots of politics. The EU is probably the largest most inefficient bureaucracy on the planet and he would hate to see it go. I also have a suspicion that his wife is a big fan of the monstrous boondoggle.

    • davidshort10

      No, he will go into the City and the boardrooms. It’s pillocks like the Kinnocks who are unemployable and useless who want to see fat jobs such as Commissioner to remain.

  • WTF

    A bit of a dilemma for Cameron considering the new poll on EU membership that puts the out vote ahead. There are two fears in peoples mind right now, the purely hypothetical ones of Cameron making up phantom fears over leaving the EU and the clear, real and present fears people have over recent events in Europe.

    Dodgy Dave will of course try and baffle us with numbers about lost jobs, trade etc but the truths of our imbalance of trade more coming in than going out can easily scupper those. He can’t deny we’ll save a fortune on benefits from EU scroungers nor our enormous contribution to a failed institution.

    On the other side of the coin, the situation regarding Islam, Muslim migrants and all the issues that are causing Germany, Sweden and many other countries major problems cannot be denied as all the EU liberals have been outed after trying a Rotherham style cover up. Add to that Hungary taking a hard line on migrants, the the Czech leader saying Islamic culture is alien to Europe and then Italy kicking up a storm with Merkel, its not looking too good for the in camp. As McMillan famously said decades ago, ‘events’ have a habit of throwing you a curved ball and wrecking your well positioned plans.

    Cameron has several choices all of which are very difficult for him.
    (a) do nothing and risk more voting for out,
    (b) crack down on the cause of the peoples real fears not his imaginary ones, impossible as he’s subject to EU laws,
    (c) finagle the referendum, we expect him to try that anyway and will fight against it
    (d) crack down on his cabinet for an in vote but risk a rebellion
    (e) do the sensible thing and plan for an exit to ensure the least disruption if hopefully we leave

    I hope he mans up and does the latter for the sake of Britain rather than his own dogma.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3402917/EU-shock-vote-storms-six-cent-ahead-wake-Paris-massacre-Cologne-sex-attacks-migrant-crisis.html

    • Leon Wolfeson

      Ah, he should plan for how to stop people escaping Isolated England. Hmm!

      • WTF

        Where on earth do you get your wacky ideas ?

        • Leon Wolfeson

          I don’t share your ideas.

          • WTF

            No one knows what your ideas are as you wont share them with us.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            So you’re a nobody who hasn’t asked, but is assuming…

          • WTF

            I’ve put several questions to you but you’re either shy, coy or too embarrassed to answer them. My background is open, you keep yours close to your chest, what are you hiding from us ?

  • mikewaller

    Go read the contribution made by Alexander Chancellor in the January 2nd edition. The external treats are all too real and going it alone now would be about as good for our health as it was for his when Captain Oates did much the same thing on Scott’s expedition. His rationale lay in the vain hope that his death would help his comrades, but as far as I am concerned, the driver with most “Outists” on this list has to be some profound ego need oblivious to the new economic realities. Not only are there all the geo-political issues this article raises, there are also the consequences of the various “geniuses” in the business world having made massive short-term gains by exporting manufacturing to third world countries. This brought about the biggest technology transfer in World history and thus robbed the West of the technological edge that had hitherto made it the global leader in living standards. What we now face is either falling back to the global living standard mean or trade blocs, the biggest of which is the EU. Ergo, only ignoramuses or the seriously derange would get out now!.

    • Mode4

      You couldn’t help yourself could you. You had to finish with an insult to anyone that dared to disagree with your hysterical post. Project fear indeed.

      • mikewaller

        I think my final observation is no more than the natural conclusion of my overall analysis. To me, your describing the whole post as “hysterical” opens you up to exactly the same possibilities I identified in my final sentence. Either you don’t know what the word means or ………….

    • marzipanlil

      Do you know anything about Islam? If you need some education, try politicalislam.com. Open borders = rapid Islamic conquest. Trade and technology are not the concern.

  • Frank

    Negativity, as a political tool, is a two sided dish! The great thing about the EU is that nobody can easily come up with a long list of all the “good” things it has brought Britain; but the list of “bad” outcomes from EU legislation is long and easy to make!

  • Dr Strangelove

    Maybe we could be a member of the EU when there is a “r” in the month, and when there is not, we could do our own thing.

  • http://twitter.com/#!/DavidWLincoln David W. Lincoln

    In all honesty, the EU is as sustainable as the borders in the Middle East. Change is coming, and frankly perpetuating failed nostrums is a waste of time & effort.

  • JonBW

    Anybody who thinks we are better off in the EU, regardless of their
    political persuasions, should watch the pro-EU Ann Soubry on Newsnight
    last night.

    She was intelligent, thoughtful and presented her case
    well; she also clearly had the interests of British Steelworkers at
    heart.

    However, it was blindingly obvious that she and the
    government were effectively unable to do anything to protect jobs
    because of our membership of the EU and its trade rules.

    It was genuinely pathetic to hear a well-intentioned British minister pleading
    that we had voted in ways that the rest of Europe didn’t expect as if
    this made any difference whatsoever to the outcome.

    It was a sad example of how powerless our government is whilst we remain members; and
    frightening evidence of how little democracy and national sovereignty
    matter.

  • WTF

    They’ll be more Islamic attacks in Europe before the vote whether terrorist or against girls and the left can no longer cover it up. That will add votes to the out campaign.

  • marzipanlil

    Vote OUT to save Europe. Vote IN to save the EU.

  • Klaus Phol

    Its a wonderful opportunity to get out and it must not be missed.

  • Klaus Phol

    I have my own engineering company and I find the continual intervention by the EU a real problem which I could well do without, I employ 50 people and I am continually bombarded by everlasting EU time wasting and nonsensical bureaucracy. If we could leave the EU it would be the best thing that could happen to me. We already trade very effectively all over the world with lots of non EU countries without any problems. The only problems I have to cope with are the ones introduced by the EU. We are a leading edge company involved with the management and control of chemical emissions.
    Its blatantly obvious to me that British Politicians don’t have the slightest understanding of what goes on in the manufacturing world at the grass roots level and I do not think that they have any interest in its preservation, they are nothing more than career politicians. I have also noticed if they have a degree in the most obscure and useless subject. No use whatsoever in the real world..

  • klclarke

    The way David Cameron is pushing this campaign is making it look as though he is panicking. It has been relatively obvious that over the past ten years, crime has increased a lot within the EU parliament. Money is being taken at a rapid rate by rouge businesses and is not accounted for. Staying in the EU will be far more dangerous to Britain due to the instability of the EU parliament so leaving has to be the best option.

  • Mike Mada

    Cameron has lost it at last. All common sense and trust in the British people has gone and the arrogant little twerp thinks he can bully. But the strange irony is that the people won’t take this and the more he postures and threatens, the more he will lose. How thick is he?

  • Dayzeye Reilly

    I wrote and said I am out of EU and repeated Boris comment about Cameron being demented…….they sent a mental health team to my door to section me..Ummmmm democracy?

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