Features

The next immigration crisis

2.5 million Syrian refugees have already arrived, and almost as many again are expected. How can Turkey cope?

13 February 2016

9:00 AM

13 February 2016

9:00 AM

In Istanbul, signs of the Syrian influx are everywhere. Syrian mothers sit on pavements clutching babies wrapped in blankets; children from Homs, Syria’s most completely devastated city, push their way through packed tram carriages begging for coins. Arabic adverts offer rooms for rent. It’s almost inconceivable how many Syrians Turkey has taken in as refugees — around 2.5 million of them so far. That’s almost three times the number who have sought refuge in Europe. And while the Turks are hospitable, Turkey has more than any country should bear. Yet still more refugees arrive. This is a serious cause for concern, not just in Turkey but in Brussels too, because if Turkey can’t cope, their migrant problem will quickly become ours.

Since the outbreak of the Syrian war, Turkey has acted as a buffer zone between the Middle East and Europe. It’s one of the places refugees head first, to safety, while they work out what to do next. In the early days of the conflict, many refugees arrived in Turkey hoping that the violence in their own country would subside and that they could return home. Five years on, they see Syria sinking ever further into chaos. Some, understandably, make the decision to leave for new lives in prosperous Europe. Of the one million refugees and migrants who ended up in Europe last year, 800,000 arrived in Greece via Turkey.

Far from all of them were Syrian — they comprised roughly half the newcomers, with Afghans and -Iraqis making up much of the rest. But Syria is now the world’s biggest refugee generator, and things are getting worse. So it’s easy to see why Turkey’s -ability (or willingness) to accommodate the 2.5 million Syrians is of such intense interest in Brussels: if the Turks decide they have had enough, and enough of their refugees decide to move, we could see a fresh wave of immigration — maybe even larger than last year’s.

Refugees can be amazingly tough and resourceful, but their living conditions in Turkey — though better than they would be in Lebanon and Jordan — are far from ideal. Most Syrians do not have the right to work, and taking an illegal job means low pay and the fear of being sacked without notice. Access to schooling and healthcare is limited. Many Syrians struggle to get to grips with the language, which leaves them isolated and confused. Looking at a future with no prospects, what parent wouldn’t at least consider gambling on a fresh start for the sake of their children? No wonder then that Turkey’s Aegean coastline is now filled with people-smugglers offering passage to Europe, selling the dream of a new life in a Germany or Scandinavia. The journey can cost anything from €800 to €6,000, depending on demand. The trafficking trade is now a multi-billion-euro business.

What should a panicking EU do? So far the answer has been to bribe Turkey to make the refugees stay where they are. Some €3 billion of EU funds has been pledged to Turkey, with more to come. Brussels has also dangled the enticing prospect of visa-free travel to the Schengen zone for its citizens. A leaked transcript of EU-Turkey talks from November gave a feel for the kind of horse-trading going on. The Turkish foreign minister is -quoted as denouncing the EU billions as an ‘insult’, and Recep -Tayyip Erdogan, the Turkish president, reminded Jean-Claude Juncker, the former prime minister of Luxembourg, that his country was the size of a Turkish town. ‘We can open the doors to Greece and Bulgaria any time,’ Erdogan was quoted as saying. ‘We can put the refugees on buses.’ This sounded very much like blackmail.

[Alt-Text]


The EU has proved willing to hold its nose and strike a bargain while Turkey locks up journalists and arrests academics. It has also capitulated to President Erdogan’s demands. An EU report denouncing his crackdown on freedom of expression and a return to violence in the mainly Kurdish south-east was delayed until after his re-election last November, apparently at his request. This caused astonishment in Brussels, with one ambassador saying that the EU was now ‘at the whim of the Sultan’.

As for Turkey’s part of the deal, it has taken some steps to crack down on people-smugglers, and has promised to build more schools for refugees. Turkey has finally said that it will give Syrians access to work permits — although it hasn’t said when, and this isn’t an entirely trouble-free proposition. Employers have been happy to hire refugees on the black market, so they work in factories and on farms for much less than the minimum wage. It’s far from clear that these jobs would still be on offer when Syrians must be paid properly.

Many Turks are proud of the hospitality their country has shown. But there are signs that some people are beginning to lose patience. I know a wealthy Istanbul family that refurbished six empty flats and gave them over to refugees — only to receive a petition from the neighbours complaining that they didn’t want the new occupants to be there and accusing them of petty crime. Last year, a 13-year-old boy made the headlines after a shopkeeper in the city of Izmir beat him for selling tissues outside his store. A photo showed him with a bloodied nose and tears running down his cheeks.

Turkey already has a deeply polarised political climate, with a frenzied and often aggressive public discourse over the role of religion, the rights of minorities and the conduct of the ruling Justice and Development party. It would be all too easy for the precarious mood in Turkey to tip over into resentment, which is why both Erdogan and Europe are looking so nervously at Syria. How many more will come? And how will we cope?

The trouble for Turkey (and therefore Europe) is that the root cause of the refugee crisis is the fighting in Syria — which -continues to intensify. Blithely ignoring the first attempt at Syria peace talks in two years, Russian jets have ploughed on in support of Syrian government offensives, showing no regard for who or what they attack, bombing schools, homes and crowded market-places, and sending desperate families fleeing to the border.

Turkey has suggested that Vladimir Putin is deliberately trying to increase tension in Europe by creating more refugees. More likely, Putin sees this as just a handy side-effect in a bigger plan. If he crushes all those opposed to Bashar al-Assad — other than Islamic State — he knows that the West will have no option but to accept that the Baathist regime is here to stay. The recent attempt at peace talks in Geneva was abruptly halted after this onslaught. So the chaos in Syria looks set to continue for years. This means tens of thousands more Syrians trudging towards Turkey — and almost inevitably another influx into Europe.

The recent deal with Brussels, and heavy pressure from the United States to prevent the transit of Islamic State fighters back and forth from Syria, means that the Turkey–Syria border is much less porous than it once was. There is no longer an open door for refugees. Ankara has prevented the entry of about 50,000 people displaced after the recent fighting in Aleppo, prompting breathtakingly hypocritical demands from Europe that Turkey let them in immediately. There is speculation that Turkey — deeply unnerved by the approach of pro-Assad forces towards its border — is seeking to create by default the buffer zone that it has long demanded from Washington. Its exact intentions remain unclear but, whatever happens, aid agencies warn that the vast numbers of uprooted civilians and the fierce fighting can only mean one thing: more and more refugees.

Turkey is not an easy political partner. Erdogan is a mercurial leader who is aware of the power he now wields over the EU, and if he feels that the EU is not holding up its end of the bargain, he won’t hesitate to cause trouble. Turkey already feels resentment that the EU has not yet paid the money it pledged; there are no signs of a promised direct resettlement programme. Brussels says that it cannot begin until there is a significant fall in the number of people crossing to Greece, but this looks unlikely to happen. There’s just too much money in it for the traffickers and too many people willing to risk their lives. Last week, 38 more drowned in two boat accidents in a single day. Eleven of them were children.

Every day, the number of Syrian refugees grows larger. As I write, thousands of those who have fled Aleppo and converged on the Turkish border are sleeping in the open air, anxiously watching the skies for Syrian and Russian jets on bombing raids. This week, the United Nations warned that upwards of 150,000 more people could soon be fleeing Aleppo; Turkey says the total number displaced from Aleppo alone could eventually be 600,000. Syrians living (or seeking refuge) in the rebel-held Idlib province could be next to move, and in Damascus, the only talk is of continuing the offensive as the rebels continue to lose ground.

The effect of all of this is not hard to imagine. In the first six weeks of this year, 70,400 refugees and migrants have crossed from Turkey into Greece — almost ten times as many as in the same period last year. The pace will probably intensify as the weather warms up, just in time for the referendum on Britain’s EU membership. The great migration may be just beginning.

Laura Pitel lives in Istanbul and writes for the Independent.

More Spectator for less. Stay informed leading up to the EU referendum and in the aftermath. Subscribe and receive 15 issues delivered for just £15, with full web and app access. Join us.


Show comments
  • Rik

    Fine,fine here we go again,there are 7 billion people on this planet,80% of which either live in poverty or under threat of war and/or persecution.Exactly how many should Western Europe open its borders to??? 10,million,100 million 2 billion???Either we just say no and actually preserve Western civilisation or be dragged down and drowned to third world levels.AFTER WHICH WE WILL NOT BE ABLE TO HELP ANYONE.Halo hunting,virtue signalling,it’s more deadly than heroin addiction,feels great at the time but in the end it kills you.

    • Social Justice Warrior

      #refugeeswelcome

      • Rik

        Excellent,you are welcome to take in,house, feed ,educate and totally provide for as many as you wish in your own home.naturally you will also pay for all their health care needs personally.C’mon lead by example,no?? thought not.

        • Bad Lad

          And be held responsible for any crimes they commit.

          • Malcolm Stevas

            Perhaps with a £20k surety for their good behaviour, placed in escrow.

          • Bad Lad

            Absolutely. No Social Justice Warrior eorth her salt could complain at that.

      • Sue Smith

        Glib and facile phrases just won’t cut it. You are a living example of the shallow hashtag culture. And for a pacifist it’s an interesting username!!

      • Bad Lad

        #RefugeesUnwelcome
        #Rapefugees
        Hey hashtags are easy – and simplistic, just like you.

      • logdon

        In Mecca?

        Nein danke.

      • Cyril Sneer

        You speak for an ever decreasing minority.

        We should send people like you to Syria – air drop you w nkers straight into Raqqa and then sit back and enjoy your beheading video.

      • Hybird

        That’s what an Austrian mother told her 10 year old son. The lad befriended two “refugees” down at the local swimming pool. The elder one (17) dragged him into a changing room and raped him.
        The mother says she now regrets telling her son that “refugees” should be welcomed. She should have told him to keep well away from them. Same goes here – parents should tell their kids to avoid using Muslim taxi firms. Way too risky.

      • http://www.ukipforbritain.co.uk/ ukipforbritainwebsite

        #RhodesMustRise!

      • Child_of_Thatcher

        # rapeugees p*ss off

    • Damaris Tighe

      We need to get to the source of the problem of Europe’s inability to say ‘no’. It is, I believe, the doctrine of universal human rights enshrined in various UN & EU protocols for refugees & asylum seekers. The idea of an abstract human being stripped of all attributes apart from his need & suffering, trumps (!) the right’s concrete, realistic view of the person as part of his culture & history. If liberals understood the person in this way, they would see the clash of incompatible cultures & also see that Europe & its peoples are unique historical products worth preserving. Instead they take an obvious truth – that humans are all at some level individuals – & make it the only reality.

      Incidentally, many migrants have picked up on the West’s abstract humanitarianism & appeal to the cameras, ‘I’m a human being’. Yet in the countries they come from I doubt that the ‘other’ is seen as in any way human.

      • rationality

        ‘Refugees’, ‘human rights’ and the exploitation of our emotions to feel endlessly pity to the unfortunate, are the political tools and fabrications used to bring down the West. To be taken in by this manipulative facade is pure gullibility considering we know now that a globalist elite or oligarchical collectivists are using their power and wealth to destabilise the West. The UN and Universal Human Rights are tools used by our controlled governments to carry out the agenda so they can they say that their hands are tied. The deceit is so transparent!

        Good to see you back.

        • James Chilton

          I’m almost willing to believe that “a globalist elite or oligarchical collectivists are using their wealth and power to destabilise the West”. But what isn’t explained is, what’s in it for them. How will they survive among the ruins of a culture which has provided them with the tools to destroy it?

          • rationality

            They have their hidey holes for when the SHTF and as they control the UN they are very much part of Agenda 21/2030 which is about reducing the amount of people on this planet. With us Europeans gone or much reduced they will be able to enslave humanity forever. People need to recognise the psychopathic evil that these people possess.

          • jim

            Our elites are mobile and can relocate anywhere at any time.They have no particular attachment to any particular place and probably feel in some generalised way that in the long run this might all be for the best…The myth of equality has been laid bare and this means our elites must now force the issue..Destroying nationstribescommunities by mass immigration and the fetishising of miscegenation….sundering the traditional family with liberal social engineeringgay propagandagender fluid voodoo….all of this ( in theory) blurs the differences between people. Standardize the consumercitizen and you can standardize the productsgovt control techniques. Variety may be the spice of life but it resists control. Undifferentiated interchangeable pod persons are not so high maintenance. Note how this solution meets the needs of both international socialists and global capitalists.

          • James Chilton

            I can see that the social engineering that you catalogue would fit together in a grand plan for the breaking of nations. I strongly agree with your implied criticism of those changes which blur the differences between cultures (and the sexes).

            What I’m not ready to believe, is that a League of Elites exists which has hatched a conspiracy with a fully worked out scheme for global control. What I see are universal follies, and the consequences of a vast number of ‘progressive’ decisions that go back to the thinkers of the Enlightenment.

            You might say that I’m naive. I don’t think so, but I do admit to incorrigible scepticism.

          • Pip

            Corrupted by power and utterly compromised, if not they wouldn’t be in power in the first place, the true engineers of this insanity remain secretive.

      • The_Missing_Think

        “We need to get to the source of the problem of Europe’s inability to say ‘no’.”
        _____

        Absolutely nothing to do with the word ‘racist’ and political correctness then?

        So what happens when we Google the words Trump and ‘racist’? (here).

        As always, Trump is again being attacked and shut down as a ‘racist’.

        What word destroyed Enoch Powell’s career?

        What word destroyed the BNP?

        All three listed, are very pro white borders, (sanity), and, far more importantly, they dared to say it outloud, robustly, and are in the vote business.

        The (on-going) acutely profiled attacks used on them, show what the source is. The West is being taken down by a false accusation.

        • Damaris Tighe

          An early form of PC & the misuse of the word ‘racist’ created these international laws & protocols in the first place.

          • The_Missing_Think

            “… created these international laws & protocols…”
            _____

            Exactly… “the source” creates. The (politically correct) false racial accusation, and the (politically correct) response, created the laws, that created the culture of it being morally wrong, for Europeans to own borders.

          • Snowmuncher

            The definition of “refugee” continues to widen from UK and EU precedent and case law.

            i. Homosexuality became a legitimate reason for a successful asylum claim in 2010

            – UK Supreme court ruled (in 2010) that 2 gay men from Cameroon & Iran could remain in the UK after initially being rejected on the grounds that they could conceal their sexuality in their own countries by acting discreetly. http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/news/uk/article2591516.ece

            ii. Homosexuality criminal, even punishable by death in Most countries in Africa & the middle east

            – Population of those countries only in Africa is over 1 billion
            – Population of 2.7 Billion in countries that persecute homosexuals
            – Any person who is LGBT from these countries can legitimately claim asylum in the UK.

            The numbers are enormous, say 5% of 2.7 BILLION = 135 million – more than twice UK’s population.

            Map of countries that criminalise homosexuality: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-25927595

            Since 2014: European Court of Justice: breach of human rights to question homosexuals about their sexuality

            a)http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/immigration/11269313/European-court-asking-asylum-seekers-to-prove-sexuality-is-breach-of-human-rights.html

            b) Rulings:

            i) failure to disclose their sexuality at the outset does not undermine a plea for asylum

            ii) asking claimants to submit to “tests” over their sexuality is a breach of human rights.

            Effectively, anyone from those countries which criminalize homosexuality can claim to be gay, and obtain asylum. That is potentially 2.7 Billion people and, growing very rapidly.

        • Jackthesmilingblack

          heretic?

      • jaafar

        True , the problem is the west expect the refugees to embrace the western live style and values directly and the refugees think the west in garden of Eden
        Where they will get every thing , every country have its own limited resources and help accordingly , that’s way turkey asked for safe zone and no fly zone 3 million refugees how much can the Turkish economy withstand the infrastructure, the medical services, security services the same goes in much sever status in Jordan and Lebanon, we must provide help and safety to Syrian inside Syria
        Giving them hope that their revolution and blood did not go to waste that’s why no fly zone and safe place is crucial

        • surya

          Turkey is getting 3 billion dollars with a B from Europe plus tons of material from the world solely towards the care of the refugees. It had helped foment the war by letting in all foreign radicals gain access to Syria. What if in future the same act is reciprocated by Iraq and Syria to let kurdish rebels stage gorilla attacks against Turkey using their soil.

          • jaafar

            Turkey spent more than 12 billion with B from its own money just in the last 3 years helping the refugees ,plus not a single dime of the promised 3B is sent to turkey at this Tim its just promised , further the impact of Syrian refugees on neighboring countries go beyond promised financial Aid , for how long this aid will go on, in the long run creating a coalition of NATO and Syria neighbors to invade Syria and end Assad and his allied and terrorist crimes is the best

      • Snowmuncher

        “We need to get to the source of the problem of Europe’s inability to say ‘no'”

        We need to make sure we never have leaders like Angela Merkel, or come to that matter Jeremy Corbyn.

        And we need to make sure that the people who voted in Merkel and continue to support her and her party top at astounding popularity levels which must be envied by Cameron, must never be allowed to have influence over the UK.

        In my opinion, they have been psychologically castrated for 75 years and they have a collective mindset of self loathing and self destruction, party to atone for history.

        The UK needs to detach itself from Germany as far as is humanly possible.

    • jaafar

      Just help them in a way that can allow them to live safely and humanly in their countries

    • Snowmuncher

      Great comment and I completely agree with your points. Would you give a link to the “80% live in poverty or under threat of war and/or persecution.” as I want to use this myself.

      Thanks.

      By the way, just the population of Africa will grow from 1.2 Billion to 2.4 Billion in 34 years. Nigeria alone has a population now of c. 180 million now and will grow to 440 million (UN estimate) in 34 years. Nigeria also has a big problem with Islamic State. It’s population is 8 times larger than Syria.

      We need to make urgent changes to the 1951 Refugee Convention and amendments, which over the years because of left liberal virtue signalling has widened the definition of “refugee”. Right now ANYONE who comes from the countries in the world that persecute gays, current population 2.7 Billion (most of Middle East, Africa, the Stans and India) can arrive in the UK and rightfully in law claim asylum. It is no longer allowed to ask asylum seekers questions about their sexuality, or test them for being gay. This is insane.

      Asylum seekers from third world countries escaping war should no longer be given permanent leave to stay in the UK or even worse UK citizenship. It should be entirely short term stays until the conflict in their country has finished – average length of most conflicts is 7 years, and then they must go back. Special schools must be built and set up to teach their children in their own language by their own people immersed in their own culture.

  • Social Justice Warrior

    Europe must do its fair share. Our leaders are responsible for this tragedy

    people say we don’t have room for all these refugees but we can find room – Europe is a big continent

    #refugeeswelcome

    • Jack_H

      Rubbish,why are are leaders responsible?

      • Social Justice Warrior

        for constant warmongering in the middle East and for funding dictators

        • Jack_H

          Really,we have interests in the Middle East……….what model do you propose for the Middle East?there is no democracy there and little appetite for it.The Chaos in Iraq after the US/UK tried to replace a nasty Dictator with a democratic Government is still continuing without end.The people displaced by the fighting should be in UNHCR funded camps on the border awaiting a time when it is safe for them to return.

        • Bad Lad

          Yep the Labour Party messed that one up good and proper. No doubt, if you were old enough in 1997, you voted for the mad Blair. So you should feel guilty – very guilty – but I don’t.

        • Cyril Sneer

          You voted Labour. It’s your fault.

        • Bonkim

          Stupid idiot!

    • E.I.Cronin

      The UK and Europe has done more than it’s fair share for a conflict it bears no responsibility for at all – the Supporting Syria 2016 conference just held in London has raised USD 11 Billion in pledges and the UK alone has committed 2.3 Billion pounds since 2012.

      I wish you Refugee fanatics would take your simplistic, guilt tripping hashtags to the Gulf states where they actually have some moral and factual basis.

    • Sue Smith

      “Our leaders” are not responsible for this tragedy. If you want to commit cultural suicide because of your own feelings of guilt please don’t drag the rest of the world into it.

    • vieuxceps2

      You ,warrior for social justice, are free to work off your own guilt by helping these migrants,but I and many others do not share your hairshirted self-hatred. The muslims of the world must sort themselves out and agree to differ just as we have in religious matters.Our continent and the countries within it belong to us who have lived here for untold centuries.We will need to fight against the incomers,no doubt of that, but we do not need fifth-columnists like you to betray us in advance of the battle.

    • Bad Lad

      5 in your spare room, right sharp. Make sure your women are modestly dressed and do what the arriving men tell them. Don’t ask them to work. Be respectful. Let us know how you get on.

    • SunnyD

      Some other inane comments: Side by side, the entire human race could fit into the 5 boroughs of New York City (with the J3ws and Muslims occupying the space of Brooklyn); the populations of Norway, Sweden, Finland and Denmark (all 10million +) could fit into a square mile (perhaps on Bornholm Island?); a small island the size of Bermuda could fit a billion people on it. Tiananmen Square is pretty huge—880m x 500m, or just under half a square kilometre and could hold 4.4 million people, or the entire population of Croatia, Oman, Lebanon, Panama, Moldova, Uruguay, Kuwait, Mongolia, or Lithuania. At least my inane comments are interesting whereas your bargain basement virtue signalling is akin to the likes of Telemachus – are you sure you’re not Nick the Greek incognito? #tellsomeonewhocares

    • Blindsideflanker

      “Our leaders are responsible for this tragedy”

      No we aren’t nothing what so ever to do with us.

    • Zanderz

      Nice troll 😉

    • Cyril Sneer

      F ck off you cretin.

    • mohdanga

      And the Mid-east is big, as well. All the filthy rich MUSLIM oil sheikdoms right next door to Syria have taken ZERO of their Muslim brethren. How about them doing their “fair share”??

    • Bonkim

      Take them home with you. I don’t want to know what they do to you.

  • Kasperlos

    Turkey is playing with a double edged sword. Should she continue to allow migrants to cross into Europe and at the same time use that as leverage (yes, it’s called blackmail) to gain EU membership and visa free travel, it might all be a moot endeavour as the EU project will collapse into a dust heap under the burthen of an uncontrollable cultural, religious, political, economic and sociological crisis. The criminal and inept gang in Brussels know full well the catastrophic folly of standing aside while millions of illegal aliens from the third and Islamic worlds flow into Europe. It is irony that in this centenary of the Great War we see an upheaval – and, once again, Turkish involvement. Perhaps it’s the Ottoman’s revenge. Whatever it is, Europe and the Western Tradition is facing an existential crisis the likes not seen seen World War Two. We are all witness to an extremely dangerous time in history, and the elected and unelected leaders are dancing on eggs. Finally, the Sykes-Picot agreement and Europe never envisioned a time when millions of third world and Islamic peoples would migrate to their doorsteps. Rather, Europe 100 years ago was in the throes of mass ‘e’migration. Imagine in Edvard Grieg’s Oslo the sounds of Arabic music flowing from the streets. Today parts of central Oslo reflect the horrendous and exotic worlds that 100 years ago were discussed in polite parlors of the political and intellectual elites and academicians. Today these worlds are now enmeshed in the West and the repercussions will come. Christopher Clark should have plenty of material for a second installment of his book ‘The Sleepwalkers’.

  • Mongo

    sadly there will never be peace, freedom, dignity or democracy in the Middle East/North Africa as long as it’s dominated by that destructive, merciless ideology

    any and all other ‘solutions’ are futile

  • Sue Smith

    I say again, I predict that within 5 years most of the middle east will have evacuated to Europe. Any bets? Aided and abetted by shallow hashtag activists!!

    • Bad Lad

      You might be right but I hope not. I hope the democratic backlash is so great that our Vichy governments stop this collaboration. Obviously, the mainstream news will struggle to report the full truth and obfuscate as many of the problems inherent in Levantine immigration as possible…

      • Sue Smith

        It’s a fight that’s going to involve all of us, all of the time!! We are now in a struggle to the death over what kind of society we want for ourselves and our children. I won’t be dictated to by loony lefty bullies.

        • Bad Lad

          The loony left won’t be relevant for long. They’ll be busy hiding from their pets (women and gays especially), emigrating, blaming victims for provoking Muslim aggressors or simply converting to Islam. They’ve done for themselves demographically by importing savages as surely as they have democratically by electing “Jeremy”.

    • Blindsideflanker

      “the middle east will have evacuated to Europe”

      And Europe won’t be Europe any more but another middle eastern failed state.

    • James Chilton

      I’d guess 10 years, but nothing would surprise me now about the speed of our downfall.

  • E.I.Cronin

    In a parallel, and much saner, universe Juncker & Merkel would follow Orban’s decisive lead and seal Bulgaria borders, send the Navy to police the Aegean and shut down the people smuggling trade while coughing up the 3 billion Euro bribe and Sultan Erdogan wouldn’t have the fate of Europe in his hands.

    • KingEric

      Shutting down the people smuggling really is the first step. The flow has to be stopped before things explode.

      • E.I.Cronin

        Yes absolutely. Surely they have the military capacity, legal right and finance to close the smuggling routes… instead they outsource the job of protecting their borders to a corrupt, deceitful Sunni militant and are surprised when they’re held to ransom.

  • RavenRandom

    How about relocating them in other Arabic speaking countries? Why come to Europe difficult religion, different language, different customs… oh hang on… are they economic refugees?
    Offer money to the many other Arabic speaking countries or other Muslim countries to take them.

    • Jack_H

      Or just appeal to their sense of decency….it is far easier for them to absorb people from the same cultural,linguistic and religious background……..and if all the emoters are to be believed Migrants and Refugees will hugely boost their economies as they are much smarter,harder working and all round better than their own populations.

      • Rick.Brown

        Sad to say but Arabs/Muslims don’t have a “sense of decency” in the same way we do.

        • Jack_H

          Strange how many Muslim commentators in this country talk of our ‘Responsibility” but completely ignore the failure of Rich Middle Eastern countries to take in any and to openly say they have no intention of admitting any………Seen Alibhai Brown this morning saying how we should take these people in and comparing it to the Holocaust……about as intellectually dishonest as you can get and an insult to the memories of the victims of the Holocaust.

          • Conway

            Another Holocaust is what we’ll get if we let them all in and we’ll be the victims.

    • Bad Lad

      But this is an Arab plan to take Europe from us. It’s the very reason they do not take refugees – they are being sent as an occupying army.

    • Wildflowers

      There is a video of a speech from a senior Saudi official stating that they do not want to accept the refugees as it would be “destabilising” for their society. I’ll see if I can track it down (LiveLeak?).

  • Blindsideflanker

    I note that when we are accused of breaking a country, we’re told the resulting refugee crisis is our moral responsibility to deal with. I note few if any migrants are fleeing to Russia in light of Russia helping to break Syria or there being any calls to make Russia take them.

    • Cyril Sneer

      Russia won’t take them and as a result they don’t go.

      If the EU did the same thing the result would eventually be the same – none would come.

      As Merkel sent out an open invite then the numbers that could come will literally be without limit.

      Russia hasn’t broken Syria, it’s only been bombing 3 months. The Syrian war has been going on for over 4 years.

      • http://rantingoldgit.blogspot.co.uk/ Arthur Sparknottle

        That’s mainly because we set ourselves against the wrong side and condemned the only side that could provide a reasonably secure country for all of its minorities. If we think Assad was overly fierce in his response to armed factions and gangsters attacking police, army and trying to overthrow the government, ask yourself how our own police and armed forces would react to something similar…. You are a dead man if you produce a knife in the street here let alone turn up with a rocket launcher and a gang armed with Kalashnikov assault rifles and start declaring independence.

  • Malcolm Stevas

    The Turkey problem would be less salient if Greece performed its duties as an EU member more conscientiously. For all its economic woes, Greece maintains a large standing army (I believe 180,000 active front-line troops), a respectable navy with up to 14 frigates and around 30 coastal gunboats, and runs about 600 aircraft including well over 200 helicopters. Its coastline might be fragmented and difficult to patrol but it has the numbers and the kit to do so – it’s the will that is lacking. All EU countries are victims of the destructive “human rights” passion that extends way beyond protecting the interests of our own citizens (an absolute duty) to permitting illegal migrants to stay rather than summarily ejecting them. But enough is enough: Greece can return illegals to Turkey, and Italy can send its migrants back to N.Africa. Europe’s interests come first.
    As for our own local problems, our leaders are as culpable as Greece – and it’s always been a mystery to me why France permitted the “Jungle” at Calais to become established, let alone stay in place so long. It’s not as if the French can’t act decisively and ruthlessly when their interests are threatened.

    • Bad Lad

      Well, firstly, the French are happy to transfer the problems to us. They see us as having fostered Islamic terrorism for much longer than they have and their security services refer to our capital as Londonistan. A damned cheek in the light of what we’ve seen lately but there you go, all our governments are guilty as you say.

      The governments of the EU are now effectively Vichy governments, oppressing their populations on behalf of a foreign power. That power may be hidden, fragmented, multi-facted and even occasionally amorphous but it exists alright and our leader pay homage to it: Islamism. They take as much money as they can stuff in their pockets from the Saudis, for example, and these savages won’t be the only Islamic paymasters our governments serve.

      The cloak of human rights merely helps them oppress existing populations in favour of the occupying ones. It has rarely if ever been used for anything else.

      I keep banging the Vichy drum because I think it is entirely apposite and want to see it gain common currency. Our governments openly collaborate with theocratic fascists who intend to rape, murder and enslave Europe and that is the naked truth.

      • James Chilton

        The Vichy regime was collaborationist. Why are the neo-Vichy governments collaborating with Islamic powers which are determined to destroy Western societies? It doesn’t make sense.

        • Bad Lad

          Money.

          • James Chilton

            Okay. If money is the answer, the people who sell us out won’t enjoy the benefits of a modern economy in which to spend their loot.

          • Bad Lad

            That assumes that they have thought it through.

        • Bad Lad

          And go on, I went for Vichy but neo-Vichy is better. Good man.

      • Malcolm Stevas

        Well, yes, but the French haven’t shifted the problem onto us – yet. They maintain this festering sore that must be hellish for the citizens of Calais. Pity it isn’t ruled by the English crown any more…

    • James Chilton

      It could be in the French interest to keep the Calais camps intact. It puts pressure on us. They hope we will relieve the pressure by opening migrant camps in Dover as a “humanitarian” safety valve.

    • http://rantingoldgit.blogspot.co.uk/ Arthur Sparknottle

      Well said. Greece is a disaster from top to bottom. I watched a TV programme last night on IPLAYER about Greece and the migrant problem. It was filmed last summer. It was astonishing that on the shores of Kos, the only presence to be seen on the Greek side was a rabble of do gooder local activists waving rubber boats ashore and handing out bottles of water. Then a stream of hundreds of ‘refugees’ (economic migrants in reality) were walking to the nearest train station in a town some miles away. There were no Greek naval forces, no policemen, no troops in evidence. You could see right across the straights to Turkey and the only boats were rubber landing craft of the invading swarm. Greece is not playing the game at all. They simply wave the migrants through to somewhere else.

      • Zanderz

        That is their game – no migrant wants to stay in Greece. It’s easier to let them through on ‘humanitarian’ grounds rather than take a stand and be the global bad man.

      • Malcolm Stevas

        Agree entirely, in particular your closing para.

      • alfred5

        Some are clearly refugees fleeing a war zone

        • http://rantingoldgit.blogspot.co.uk/ Arthur Sparknottle

          They fled the war zone and arrived in Turkey. That’s it. Asylum rules dictate that you ask for help in the first safe country not the one with the nicest prospects for the ideal life. NO REFUGEE arrives at Calais or Cologne as his first port of call. Anyway – the majority of them are from Macedonia, Iraq, Pakistan and Afghanistan.

          NONE OF THEM are any responsibility of ours to take in. If Greece lets them in, Greece can keep them.

      • deepeekay

        Do this: everytime you read about an islamist nutjob, search online for the year that they entered our country and our lives and under whose government they arrived. The last three times I have done this John Majors Tories popped up. I was not surprised.

        • http://rantingoldgit.blogspot.co.uk/ Arthur Sparknottle

          Don’t be so damned silly. The numbers coming now far outweigh those that came back then albeit that there were too many then. Also, our worst problems seem to be from second generation nutjobs. There are plenty more of those growing up right now and millions of the beggars came during Labour’s time.

          This is far too important a subject for our NATIONAL wellbeing to get into stupid feckless party politics.

      • ClausewitzTheMunificent

        We don’t connive: it’s not our problem if all these people want to go to Britian and Germany and Sweden, and its not our business to stop them. Perhaps if the British and the Germans hadn’t been complicit in the destruction in Iraq, Libya and Syria you might have had a point.

        • http://rantingoldgit.blogspot.co.uk/ Arthur Sparknottle

          Of course its your problem. YOU are supposed to secure the borders to the Schengen zone!!! Greece exerces NO RESPONSIBILITY WHATSOEVER. Not about anything.

          No responsibility to collect taxes needed to pay for government expenditure

          No responsibility to pay back borrowed money

          No repsonsibility to register migrants as required by Schengen and Dublin agreements

          No responsibility to do anything at all except sit in the sun until you retire at 50 on a final salary pension EQUAL to your last salary.

          Useless failed state. Cut them loose and push them away into the mess of the Middle East which they resemble more than they do a European nation.

          • ClausewitzTheMunificent

            Well that’s a rant. I’m not Greek, but there you go. And it is a bit rich to have a go at the greeks about “defending the holy border of Schengen” when the UK is an island, hence can bloody well police it’s own border. Moreover this mass influx is clearly an unprecedentd and extraordinary case which was not considered when drafting EU border legislation. As such, the Greek response is perfectly sensible, given the fact that the Greek coastline is nigh indifensible against a determined man and a boat resorting to lethal force (think attack helicopter runs and gunboat patrols), both of which were and still remain politically unacceptable.

          • http://rantingoldgit.blogspot.co.uk/ Arthur Sparknottle

            The Greeks have a huge army and a navy with probably more ships than ours. Their border is ‘impossible to protect’ because they can’t be bothered to protect it. The points at which large numbers cross are very very few. The whole Greek coastline is not being assaulted, but thousands of people a day are crossing between Turkey and Kos a distance of about three miles. The pressure points could easily be patrolled. Of course , worthless, useless defeatist slogans like yours give the excuse for the Greeks to shrug and order another ouso in the sunshine mid morning while waiting for their retirement at fifty five on final salary.

            Rather than investing any more in Greek uselessness, we should put the money into building a gigantic Iron Curtain fence between their border and the north. Leave them to it. They were only into the EU as leaches anyway. They produce nothing and do nothing, but enjoy living the high life while others pay their bills.

          • NORDIKO47

            At least, do you realize that the Greeks are 11.000.000?

          • ClausewitzTheMunificent

            Do they have the money to sail these ships? I highly doubt it. And using the Army is politically impossible. Moreover it is not their role, but that of border guards. Bringing up the number of possible reserves is again completely pointless since mobilisation usually requires the outbreak of war. You’d go far with the current neo Nazis at the German finance Ministry, talk of leeches on the backs of the Herrenvolk and all. I am awed by your arguments and the facts which you use to buttress them: clearly the entirety of the Greek population are good-fer-nothing and incapable of producing anything, and they need a strong Imperialist hand to slap sense into them. Fancy volunteering? I’m waiting to hear all about it in the papers “confused angry Briton leads charge of the Buffoon Brigade into Greece; is arrested and deported for illegal entry”.

          • http://rantingoldgit.blogspot.co.uk/ Arthur Sparknottle

            LOL – It isn’t just me that thinks the Greeks have abandoned their responsibility to control their external border. They have just been censured by the EU for EXACTLY that and given three months to sort out their lack of action. You can argue as you like about how impossible their job is, but the fact is they have failed in treaty obligations and created a nightmare for others. I’ll grant you that Merkel’s irrational ‘invite’ for the third world to join her at a big party in Germany didn’t help, but the fact remains that Greece is obligated to control the EU external border it has with Turkey. That is the law.

  • alfred5

    I WROTE THIS OVER SIX MOTHS AGO BUT AS TIME GOES BY IT IS BECOMING INCREASINGLY PRESCIENT AND PROPHETIC …….

    Europe is feminised , decadent and self absorbed with a faux Hollywood TV trash culture …we are hopeless ; we cannot defend ourselves because we have lost the ruthless will to live that comes from struggle and adversity ;we have lost the meaning and sense of purpose that religion offers and are now cast adrift , nay marooned, in an archiphelago of existential despair !…..what now little man ..what now ?

    We are in fact the ELOI from H G Wells ”Time Machine ” and the Muslims from the Maghreb , M E and Afghanistan are clearly the MORLOCKS …many if not most are young men , vigorous , hungry and contemptuous of their hosts who they see as weak , decadent and quasi homosexual …they are GATE CRASHING our borders because word has gotten out due to modern communications that the EU are a ”soft touch ‘ ‘ who will not enforce their borders !…they are not asking for entry , they are clearly demanding and will not take ”No ” for an answer !

    ”Here come the assassins stained in the colours of their trade ” !… Macbeth

    Angela Merkel in a colossul fit of absent mindedness and female pyschobabble announced that Germany would take 800,000 so called refugees ; unfortunately she is likely to get 8 million, mostly male, migrants …she has in fact triggered an avalanche of epic proportions that is virtually impossible to switch off !

    The EU will not do what is clearly necessary by moving decisively and sending their navies down there , stopping the migrant smugglers , sending the migrants back and then sinking the boats …only when word gets out in the developing world that the EU is wilfully enforcing their borders will the mass migration slow and stop ; but they will not do it because they are too soft , too feminised and too ”decent ” …indeed , they have lost the sense of a tragic nature of life and that we humans are in fact , predatory and ruthlessly opportunistic…MAN IS WOLF TO MAN !

    Unsurprisingly , they are trying to get the Turks to slow down or turn off the migrant flow , but that is like asking the arsonist to become the Fire Chief ; the Turks are opportunistic fellows and will only do so at a stiff price …they will jack us out and hold us to ransom in a latter day DANEGELD or version of the Barbary Pirates and our so called leaders will pay it ; unfortunately , they will find that the ransom goes up in price opportunistically …the Turks will have no real intention of stopping the flow as they clearly intend to make the best of their good fortune and blackmail us !

    We are in the midst of a major historical event , the greatest since the end of the Cold War and the collapse of the former Soviet Union ; in fact , this could turn out to be nothing less than the greatest ,or at least most consequential, mass migration in human history and the collapse of the EU ….the Third World has one major advantage over us insomuch they have the POPULATION BOMB and are certain to use it against us !

    ”By the pricking of my thumbs something wicked this way comes ” ! …Macbeth

    • alfred5

      Part of the problem is German war guilt and especially the Holocaust …the younger generation have been burdened with the sins of their grandparents ..they feel like the offspring of serial killers and are psychologically damaged by it !.. I imagine it is worse for females than males and this goes some way in explaining the fit of madness by Angela Merkel !
      Germany would have been better served by taking in a million Russians or Ukrainians

      • MickC

        And Europe would have been better off if Germany was not re-united.

    • Zanderz

      I’d say that was pretty much spot on.

    • http://rantingoldgit.blogspot.co.uk/ Arthur Sparknottle

      Worst of all, Merkle in her latest fit of insanity, offers Edrogan the carrot of visa free travel for 75 million Turks to the EU………

      GDP per capita Turkey $10,900
      GDP per capita Germany $46,268
      GDP per capita UK $41,787

      I wonder what the get up and go Turkish youths will do…….

      We will see an influx that makes our current debacle seem like nothing.

      • alfred5

        Too true ..this is like the Titanic lifeboat syndrome …the survivors had to paddle away from the sinking ship or they would of been swamped by panicked swimmers
        Merkel is the emotional woman who claimed that the already full lifeboat should paddle back and pick up more swimmers FATAL MISTAKE

        • http://rantingoldgit.blogspot.co.uk/ Arthur Sparknottle

          I can’t understand why the Germans tolerate such a fool runningbthe show. Worse still – she seems to be running the whole EU. By what right does she offer the Turks visa free travel to the whole EU?????

          Time to get out, whatever tuppence halfpenny ‘concessions’ Cameron ‘wins’…. As if we are going to accept as a triumph that we might be able to have considered our request not to send child tax credits to families in Romania when the kids live there and daddy is selling The Big Issue in England somewhere and receiving working tax credit as well….. The bloody insolence of it and the bloody insolence of Cameron to tart up this cadaverous offer as a negotiated triumph.

      • jennybloggs

        What will it take for Germans to depose Merkel?

  • rationality

    I support Orthodox Christian Russia and Shia Muslim Iran to end this war in Syria and kill the Western/Sunni funded Islamic insurgents so the country can be restored. The Syrian ‘refugee crisis’ is the narrative for the invasion so with a stable Syria the excuse is gone and should be stopped. Of course they wont stop the invasion but at least the deceit is clear.

    Turkey cant be trusted in any shape and form so the ‘refugees’ must be stemmed from Syria as they will use it for extortion purposes. If the EU doesnt give them billions of euros they will flood Europe with these people. Lets not give them the excuse and treat it like the pariah state it is. It has no place in Europe.

    • http://rantingoldgit.blogspot.co.uk/ Arthur Sparknottle

      I am put in mind of the English king Aethelred and the payment of Danegeld to bribe the Viking horde from invading and despoiling English lands . They were eventually paid one hundred tonnes of silver to hold off from destroying our lands.

      • rationality

        Thats a great analogy and it makes me cringe that the whole of Europe is being held hostage by a gangster like Erdogan.

        Considering the manipulation and deceit we are more aware of I question how much of this is by design. The controlled West is looking to get rid of us due to their masters (banking families) elsewhere so the pretence here is that the West is saying its not our fault when really they should be at minimum sanctioning Turkey, with threat of war if they dont stop the invasion. The Turkish people wouldnt like that and perhaps might get rid of the gangster Erdogan.

        Erdogan makes a useful scapegoat so the West doesnt have to do anything. Who knows?

  • James Chilton

    Some, understandably, make the decision to leave for new lives in prosperous Europe.

    If I “understandably” make the decision to leave for a new life in prosperous Japan or America, they won’t let me in.

    • newname

      They probably will if you can show you have the means to support yourself and not become a welfare recipient.

      • Malcolm Stevas

        Hmmm, makes me wonder how many of the UK’s 100,000-plus Somalis have the means to support themselves and are not welfare recipients. I’d really like to know.

        • mohdanga

          They are one of the worst ‘enrichers’. Big problems over here in Canada with them.

  • http://rantingoldgit.blogspot.co.uk/ Arthur Sparknottle

    Thee are two solutions and both should be employed immediately.

    1. We need a strong naval presence to blockade the straights between Turkey and Kos and also between the Libyan coast and Lampadusa. We must warn all would be illegal travellers that all vessels venturing beyond the half way mark of the crossing will be fired on and destroyed and WE MUST DO IT.

    2. We must restore the Baathist regime, perhaps ensuring that Assad himself resigns. There is no credible other regime that can govern Syria in a way that accommodates all of its ethnic groups. The Sunnie revolutionaries are either fundamentalist savages like DAESH or they are trigger happy militia types who will slaughter the Alawites and possibly the Christians.

    The west has made terrible mistakes in supporting a rabble of anti-Assad brigands. Do we want another Libya, or another Iraq? We have seen these revolutions degenerate to abject chaos over and over all over the Maghreb. Time to stop and repent what we did. Blair isn’t the only stupid British leader with Middle Eastern disaster on his hands. Cameron was very happy to flex his podgy muscles against Ghadaffi and look where that led.

    • James Chilton

      Neither of your solutions will be implemented. The governing class in this country is absolutely crackers and has been that way for some time.

    • MickC

      No, what WE must do is mind our own business. The Russians will restore Assad, and some semblance of order.

    • SunnyD

      as much as I agree with you (especially on point no. 5) this sounds waaaay too much like common sense and this type of talk will likely give the powers that be the inside track on how we’re all feeling and give them the ideas to do the exact opposite

  • investigator

    We had a similar, but smaller, problem in Australia. Shiploads of illegal migrants were being brought in from Iraq, Afghanistan and other Muslim countries. Thousands upon thousands. One politician, Tony Abbott, promised to “stop the boats” if he were elected, and, within a short time of taking power the boats had stopped coming.

    It can be done. If it is not done then Europe will become a bicultural society constantly on the verge of civil war. If the civil war does erupt it will make Europe’s religious wars of the past look like football matches.

    • alfred5

      True enough , it can be done but only with a national will ..there is something weak and pathetic about the postmodern EU..it seems to me like we are heading for a Darwin Award

    • Jacobi

      Sadly, I suspect a war is now inevitable. It will be different from previous wars. Islamic strategists will dictate it. Western Europe, not just the EU, will dither. The outcome ……………………?

    • Liberty

      It’s undesirable but we will, as a result of mass immigration, see a huge increase of surveillance, and control. We will also see a more realistic and sophisticated effort by European governments to get immigrants to integrate, assimilate and adapt to Western ways. Lets face it, immigrants can see with their own eyes that our way works and Islam is dysfunctional. The more we tell them that the sooner will they adjust. The EU though, from its ivory towers, is not imaginative or adaptable enough. It can only be done by national governments responding to voter pressure.

  • Jacobi

    A naïve and very pro-Turkish account. But the writer lives in Istanbul. She has to be careful.

    This summer will see a 3/4 fold increaser in the number of Islamic immigrants into Europe likely to be over 2/3 million. Turkey will ensure that, while still bleating for money.

    There is a refugee crisis because the Syrian government is in the process of re-capturing towns already invaded and captured by ISIL. That is war.

    It is now obvious that this whole problem is caused by a combination of Sunni/Saudi-Arabia/ISIL/and, now obvious to anyone who looks, Sunni Ottoman Turkey. This intention on the part essentially of Saudi-Arabia has two objectives. The destruction of Shia Islam, none
    of our business, and the Islamification of Europe, very much our business.

    The answer?

    See Saudi Arabia and Ottoman Turkey for what they are.

    The establishment of Internment camps.

    A European ( not an EU ) Coast Guard force to collect and intern these overwhelmingly religious immigrants pending a solution of the war

    Apply this also to the N African route.

    Ask the Germans to do something about Merkel who has contributed so much to this dangerous shambolic crisis for Europe

  • Cyril Sneer

    Considering Turkey has played a large part in supporting this war with their support for ISIS or AQ then they can damn well take care of these unwanted parasites.

    Turkey can attempt to send over what it wants but if we actually control our borders then it doesn’t matter what Turkey sends over to us, they will be rejected.

    This boils down to our leaders and their avoidance of properly controlling the EU’s external borders. They’re engineering this crisis and enabling it when they can easily control the EUs external borders if they had the desire. They don’t because they want to destroy our societies and destroy the nation state.

  • http://monicol.co.uk/peter peter2108

    What Sean McMeekin calls the War of the Ottoman Succession began in 1911 when the Italian invaded Libya and ended in 1922 when the Turks drove an invading Greek army out of Turkey. This left behind an unholy mess from which the people of the Middle East seem unable to escape.

    There is a fine piece by McMeekin at http://www.the-american-interest.com/2015/12/16/turkey-and-russia-enemies-again/ saying we should remember the idiot Russophobia that faciltated the Crimean War

  • jeremy Morfey

    We might consider 1898, when the United States invaded and then colonised the Philippines.

    At the time, it had been under Spanish control for several hundred years, and during this time the Spanish colonials because corrupt and useless and the natives ever more restless. America was trying to engage in trade with the Philippines, but was having to confront ongoing chaos, so decided in the end it was easier and cheaper just to invade, which they did in April 1898. Spain ceded the Philippines to America in December of that year.

    The struggle for independence continued on until 1935, when the Americans created a Republic there under President Manual Quezon, which lasted until Japanese occupation during WW2. The Philippines was liberated by the Americans under a second invasion in 1945, and created another Republic a year later. It is now a prosperous and democratic nation, with the usual grumbles about not enough money. inadequate politicians, dodgy weather and a boundary dispute with China.

    Is there anything here that can be learnt as regards Syria, and considering recent adventures in Iraq, Afghanistan and Libya that didn’t quite work out as well? In the Philippines, only Mindanao (about the size of Ireland) has a significant Muslim presence; the rest being converted to Catholicism by the Spanish and remain so.

    • I like kidz!

      I agree that the Muslims are the problem here and elsewhere.

      • SunnyD

        comments like that will incite the anger of the wolf’s son noeL – he will pontificate in his Japanese accent accusing you of bigotry and hiding your computer

        • WTF

          Haven’t see that little s*** in the past few days is he in rehab ?

          • SunnyD

            lol no unfortunately – he’s been spotted prowling these boards last night

          • WTF

            I’ll keep my eyes open but I won’t respond to him personally whilst he’s on his self created & muddled persecution complex.

          • SunnyD

            I quite enjoy reading the exchanges he has with others and partaking a little myself – keeps me amused at work…my personal fave so far has got to be when someone said “Why do you keep saying ‘ah, so’? are you Japanese?” I nearly spat my coffee out!

          • WTF

            Yep, I saw that one and immediately my reaction was WTF. Its impossible to follow his train of thought as it makes no sense at all.

          • SunnyD

            agreed – I’ve since taken to writing back with nonsense too, like when I replaced the words to the kink’s ‘dedicated follower of fashion’ in response to another one of his nonsense attacks

    • sidor

      Syria is a battleground in a war between Iran and the Saudis. Turkey is a Saudi ally. The Saudi-controlled wahhabites are trying to capture the territory and wipe out anyone who is not of their faith. Which includes millions of Christians, Alawites, Kurds and other minorities. They attempt to repeat the Armenian genocide committed by the Turks 100 years ago.

  • sidor

    The article is misleading. The problem of Turkey arising as a result of its ME policy, and the problem of EU with respect to the Islamic refugees are two distinctly different and unrelated problems. Turkey is taking the defeated Islamists who it supported in the war against the Syrian government. Europe has no obligation with respect to these “refugees” which are the defeated islamists. The EU problem is much more simple: open borders. If the external borders of EU are not closed, tomorrow many more millions will arrive from all over the world.

    Can anyone explain what is the border policy of EU? Are there any military to protect EU from invasion? Any EU navy in Mediterranean? Is NATO still available? Who is going to defend the Empire of EU?

    • SunnyD

      that would be the (no doubt soon-to-arrive) EU federal army, who will impose martial law on the natives who resist the impending invasion…. and what we need Turkey in NATO for, I have no idea – the Cold War is over and Turkey is miles from the north Atlantic….

      • sidor

        Who said that the Cold War is over? NATO is still very much active against Russia. But the invasion of EU from the south doesn’t seem to be NATOs concern. They were good enough for bombing Yugoslavia, but are not interested in defending the EU borders against the invading Moslems. Thousands of them cross the border between Russia and Norway on bikes. Norway is still a member of NATO.

        • Hybird

          Norway sends them back to Russia now. 18 of them were hospitalised in a night club in Murmansk when they started groping Russian girls. They must have thought they were still in Norway – but Russian men tend to get angry when Muslims do that.

          • sidor

            A talked to my Norwegian friend a couple of days ago. They aren’t able to return them for technical reasons. But the question remains: what the Norwegian border guards are doing? Are they able to defend the border? Or they are instead employed in a humanitarian capacity?

          • jaafar

            So Russian man get angry when Russian girls are harassed , you are talking about the same Russian man who kidnapped Russian girls and sold them as white slaved in the EU, the US Japan and china

        • SunnyD

          sorry I must’ve dreamt the fall of communism and swallowed the media narrative, probably whilst in my drug haze in the 90’s 😉

          • sidor

            The dream is much older. We now see that the Cold War had nothing to do with Communism from the very beginning.

          • SunnyD

            something to do with an unpaid gas bill then?

  • I like kidz!

    Isn’t this what nuclear weapons were invented for?

  • DaHitman

    They have more in common with Muslim Turkey than Europe

    • Tom Cullem

      That’s why they want to leave Turkey and get to Europe. The Syrians and the Turks probably understand each other only too well. Gullible Europe, on the other hand . . . .

  • http://www.ukipforbritain.co.uk/ ukipforbritainwebsite

    Turkey has plenty of space. It can easily accommodate the entire population of Syria – it just needs to move them to the right area. All Turkey does is put refugees in camps which are almost totally (or totally?) paid for by the European Union. Turkey’s whining is nauseating. It’s turning into a vile Islamic state and persecuting journalists and all opposition. It has a direct role in perpetuating the war in Syria, and is up to its neck in the chaos in Syria and around it. Don’t shed any tears for this monstrous Islamic Republic. It’s got what it wanted. Pay it to maintain camps in its enormous hinterlands and ensure it NEVER gets into the European Union.

    • Nick

      Well said.

    • Norse Notion No.9

      Exactly. Tyrkey is quite huge, and if the idea is what it ought to be, namely that refugees should and also wants to return to their homeland as quickly as possible, then the obvious right approach is to keep them as close to their homeland as possible.
      Besides Turkey (and Jordan), Saudi-Arabia is even bigger AND just a “stonethrow” away, and had as of a couple of months ago, taken ZERO refugees!!! (Any change?) It’s ridiculous to even talk about European responsibility, until they have “filled up”!

      So there are unquestionably other agendas, than helping refugees, at play here.

      • Guilttripjunkie

        The Syrian ‘refugees’ are the responsibility of their fellow co religionist neighbours in the Middle East. It has nothing to do with Europe. All illegals entering from Turkey should be interned in detention centres in Greece. The ‘pull factor’ to the rich West has to end.

        • Snowmuncher

          I’m not usually extreme or radical, but I’d like to see Merkel tried for treachery to both the German people and the EU. What I find staggering is that while her popularity has taken a significant hit, it is still higher than Cameron’s in the UK.

          I can’t decide whether it is because the German people have been psychologically castrated for 75 years, indoctrinated by liberal fascism which has filled the space vacated by N_zi fascism, are in atonement for past sins, or their DNA is programmed to support auto-destructive leaders such as Adolf and Merkel?

      • Earl Smith

        Caliph Erdogan’s agenda is simple enough: trans-ship as many mohammedan “refugees” through Turkey as possible, into the underbelly of “Christendom” through Bulgaria and Greece. As an added benefit from his perspective, he shakes down an enervated EU in a cheap extortion racket, and screws Greece by depositing 00s of 000s of mohammedans behind the new “Schengen Wall”. His perfidy is immeasurable.

        • Norse Notion No.9

          Yeah, the fact that Turkey and Greece are old, mortal enemies with a still ongoing “stand-off” on the island of Cyprus, is rarely taken in to the consideration.

      • steddyneddy
  • Discuscutter

    If Europe is to survive then it will have to stop taking refugees.

    It certainly should help and pay for a lot of it but breaking Europe will not make the world a better place.

    The Middle East and North Africa have a demographic nightmare and that is going to ensure this problem will not be solved.

    Contraception and family planning need to be flooded across the region to bring the birth rate in to a stable position.

    Doubling in population every 20 years in lands that are mostly desert is a real problem.

    • Guilttripjunkie

      I totally agree, these people are breeding themselves into poverty and war. The population bulge in the MENA region is the root cause of problems in that area.

  • Mike E

    There are so many biased and erroneous statements in this article that I don’t know where to begin. Here are just a few comments.

    “How can Turkey cope?” she asks!

    It can cope because the “refugees” comes from a neighboring country that has the same theocratic religion/culture as it has itself.

    It can cope because it doesn’t have provide a luxurious welfare system like the Northern European countries (where all the “refugees” want to go).

    It can cope because it doesn’t pay astronomical sums to give those that cross the borders a living standard which is unheard of outside of Western Europe.

    It can cope because it is a Muslim country, not Christian one, and the “refugees” at best reluctantly accepts the Christian culture in Europe, but more commonly despises it.

    She writes:
    “It’s almost inconceivable how many Syrians Turkey has taken in as refugees — around 2.5 million of them so far. That’s almost three times the number who have sought refuge in Europe.”

    So what?!
    Turkey, a Muslim, perhaps Islamist, country, has received Muslim people from a neighboring country. How is that comparable?

    • mohdanga

      Funny how after WWII, displaced Dutch, Belgians, Hungarians, Poles, etc settled in Canada, the US, Australia, UK, New Zealand and not Saudi, Iran, Iraq, and all the other dysfunctional Muslim countries.

      • licjjs

        Who would have wanted to go?!

        • mohdanga

          That’s my point….non-Muslims want to go to Western countries, while Muslims also want to go to Western countries, but then demand we become like the sh*tholes they left!!!

          • Tom M

            True, yet here is the quote from Jinnah when he demanded a separate Islamic state (Pakistan) from India:
            “We are different beings. There is nothing in life which links us together. Our names, our clothes, our foods – they are all different; our economic life, our educational ideas, our treatment of women, our attitude to animals…….. We challenge each other at every point of the compass.”

          • mohdanga

            The West is doomed if it continues with its current policies. From Mark Steyn’s website today:

            “Lebanese- and Syrian-born residents have an average of four
            and 3.5 children respectively, whereas Australian-born women have 1.86. A small minority having four kids doesn’t sound that big a deal. But, to keep the math simple, take a population of 100,000, 90 per cent of whom have 1.86 kids per woman and 10 per cent of whom have four:

            The 90,000 have 83,700 children;

            The 10,000 have 20,000 children.

            In turn:

            The 83,700 have 77,841 children;

            The 20,000 have 40,000 children.

            And thereafter the minority is the majority. And all that growth is without a single new immigrant.”
            But it’s ‘racist’ and ‘Islamophobic’ to mention this. Our elites, aided by a compliant, leftwing media that is pro-mass immigration and multiculturalist, ignore the wishes of the host majority, and keep the spigot of benefit scrounging, 3rd world enrichers open. It is suicidal.

    • Tom M

      “….It can cope because it doesn’t have provide a luxurious welfare system like the Northern European countries……”
      Totally agree Mike, I’ve been thinking that all week.

  • jeffersonian

    ‘Since the outbreak of the Syrian war, Turkey has acted as a buffer zone between the Middle East and Europe.’

    Buffer? More like a launch pad.

  • The Hard Man

    Erdogan is a butcher who puts Syrian children on rafts in order to blackmail Europe.

  • davidofkent

    Turkey has been letting these migrants sail off to pastures new for several years. What is all this talk about Turkey handing the problem to the EU. That’s exactly what they have been doing. Obviously, the countries that should be taking the refugees are those that have caused the trouble, starting with Saudi Arabia and ending with Russia.

    • jaafar

      Turkey can’t assign a police man for each refugee , if decide they are going to the EU they will find away to reach the EU they will swim cross the sea if they need to

  • Tickertapeguy

    These refugees will not be able to stay too long in Europe. They are going to find out that Europe is a worse place than where they came from. Europeans hate them with a passion and they will feel that every single day… till they leave.

    • Guilttripjunkie

      The political elites of Europe invite these people over en masse and even put their welfare and safety above that of the own people.

      • Tickertapeguy

        That is why the growing schism between the people and the elite. Merkel is hated and so is Obama.
        Here in the US the general sense is “Donald Trump or Secession”. Many commenters put “Secession” first even over Trump.

  • Sid Falco

    Not one more – sink the boats. Kick Turkey out of NATO and EU “begging status”. Erdogan is as responsible as anyone (with Obama, KSA and Qatar) for the attempted jihadi takeover of Syria.

  • Tom Cullem

    Well, one way Turkey could cope is to stop ISIS from coming across its borders with the oil to sell that is making ISIS rich enough to keep up the war against Assad, which is creating the refugees.

    It could also do something about the huge business in forged passports and ID papers inside the camps and at the borders, which are proving additional magnets to the migrants, and for which government officials are taking huge bribes from organised crime to look the other way. The migrants know that if they bring enough money, they can get those papers in Turkey and then head to Germany, where, if those papers say they are Syrian, Iraqi, or Afghani, they are virtually assured of being granted asylum.

    And, they could start firing on and sinking the boats. Before European Europe is sunk.

  • Joe Long

    “Laura Pitel lives in Istanbul and writes for the Independent.”

    The print edition of the Independent may soon be terminated, it will be no loss

    This isn’t difficult – as Viktor Oran demands – wire off Greece

    Then all the migrants can be detained in camps until such time as they can go home, regardless of how long that is

    The Greeks wouldn’t have any choice – they would be compelled to put the migrants in camps by the diktat of other European nations, by all means pay them handsomely to do it and if the migrants are fenced in in camps it should be no huge inconvenience; get them off the streets.

    Do not let one more “asylum seeker” into the heart of Europe.

    The existing ones can be transferred to the camps in Greece

  • Guilttripjunkie

    The Syrian ‘refugee’ problem should be solved first and foremost by their co religionists in the Middle East. A Muslim civil war in Syria can not be used as an excuse for millions to seek better lives in Western Europe. Europe should take a tenth of the number accepted by the Gulf States. If Greece needs to become one big prison camp in order to save Europe so be it. The Greek debt could be written off as payment for keeping millions of culturally incompatible people out of Europe.

  • bscook111

    Turkey is dealing with the perfidious European. Europe is dealing with the nefarious Turk. Russia understands this perfectly. So do Cruz and Trump. Not so for the rest of our candidates. Current admin and the Hag understand nothing.

    • NORDIKO47

      And why you American are so in love with the wicked Saudis?

  • Conway

    What should a panicking EU do?” Well, it certainly shouldn’t be giving Turkey visa free access as it is currently! It shouldn’t be fast tracking Turkey to join, either.

  • Arthur Ascii

    Meanwhile, Turkey continues to wage war on the Kurdish population in the south east of Turkey despite the fact that these same Kurds are winning battles against ISIL.

    • Cyril Sneer

      Yes you will note how the west is silent on this genocide.

  • Ingmar Blessing

    Isn’t Britain an island?

    I believe this country might be able to cope with Turkey flooding Europe. As soon as people from the continent are massively booking one-way tickets far away, you have to CLOSE the Eurotunnel!

    C-L-O-S-E

    Got, it?

    • licjjs

      The politicians have simply lost their marbles imho.

      • Cyril Sneer

        They haven’t gone mad, this is all by design.

        The tin foil hat wearing conspiracy theorists were right.

  • Sue Smith

    This is deeply disturbing, but utterly inevitable!!

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7yfuPgMTgEs

    • James Chilton

      Thanks for the link. Just watched the video, and I’m at a loss for words. Frightful, hideous, disgusting, unspeakable, etc., are grossly inadequate to describe the situation in Calais.

      If the volatile French, with their history of revolutionary action, can’t or won’t take back their country from the horde of savages which has invaded it, what hope is there that other European nations will fight for their homelands?

      Will we have the guts to prevent Dover from becoming another Calais?

      • Sue Smith

        This link and many others like it (look at the right hand side and see many similar) is doing the rounds throughout the world; meantime, the mainstream media, politicians, the police and the left are totally silent as though this was not happening. They will not come to the aid of those in the firing line. Even Auschwitz was finally liberated!!!!!!!!!!!!

        On one classical music blog where I contribute there are angry bien pensant who say things like “this is a beat up from populists” – not having the intelligence to realize that the majority of the people are THE populace, FROM WHICH DERIVES THE WORD ‘populist’. It’s the ULTIMATE FORM OF CONDESCENSION from these bullies. Please, call them out at every single opportunity. It has now become my life’s work on behalf of my children and their children. And I’m Australian.

        The descent into Dante’s Inferno. History is littered with precedents of nations too stupid to get out of their own road. That’s what we have here. Stupidity 101.

        • James Chilton

          Your robust attitude towards the crisis we face does you credit: more power to your elbow.

          Unfortunately, fewer women than men are prepared to stick their heads above the parapet and take aim at our enemies (internal and external). It would make a difference, I think, if women were vociferous in defence of our culture, and shamed the passivity of men.

          • Sue Smith

            Between my husband and myself we have 5 children and 9 grandchildren to be concerned about. Our eldest son (nearly 40) is a real activist too and he’s entirely fed up with the way things are. Our 3rd son works in the national political arena as an adviser to an extremely senior member of our current government. But he remains silent and discreet!!

            I was provided with a brain and I feel it incumbent upon myself to use it!!

    • Cyril Sneer

      Thanks for the link, you won’t be seeing that video on the MSM.

    • Tom M

      Thank you for the link. The lady was distraught, not a politician but an inhabitant who is quite clear about events. Absolutely horrifying and an appalling indictment on the French authorities.
      What is obvious is that this Calais drama is playing to a political agenda. I don’t think for one minute this would be tolerated if not directed straight from the Palais de l’Elysée.
      That these camps never seem to appear anywhere other than close to the UK would suggest that they being left very much in existence as some sort of bargaining chip or lever against the UK.
      By comparison I seem to remember some years ago the Roma and Sarkozy. When he thought they were a nuisance their feet didn’t touch the ground. They went, and with many claims human rights violations by the French State too. So they can sort it out when it suits them.

      • Sue Smith

        Then they need to be called out on this! You are right about the political agenda; I had never thought of that. A resurgence of the far right is the one certainty in all of this and those tools who did nothing will simply say to the people, “they are bad people; racists” and wipe their hands of it all.

        “French authorities” has got to be one of the biggest oxymorons of our time.

        • Patricia

          Sue – thanks for the link. Horrifying. I believe the poor woman because I’ve been to Calais recently and what an awful mess it has become. It was once a lovely town to visit – easily accessible from where we live. a nice lunch, walking along the sea front, buy some wine but above all it was friendly. It is now a menacing tip with these migrants (they are not refugees) begging, walking around in large groups, talking into mobiles (who are they phoning ?). They are all strong, fit and well-dressed too. Can’t think of anyone to feel less sorry for.

          • Sue Smith

            It’s beyond belief that a country like France, which was once so proud, has been reduced to this. And in the name of what exactly?

            I’m sorry to say that France is finished. My son reports this, having spent 3 vintages there as a wine-maker over the last few years. There’s a torpor and lack of identity that is consuming it from within. France stands for nothing; possibly empty symbolism occasionally, but that’s all.

    • Joey Edgecombe

      Thanks for the link, heartbreaking though it is, it should be viewed widely.

    • Cyril Sneer

      That lady, her family and her community will be voting for Marine Le Pen. Many in France will be doing the same.

      • Sue Smith

        You know what? Good on them!! I hope they do.

        As a side issue, if I might digress on the journey from progressive to conservative: yesterday our Federal Treasurer made a speech at the National Press Club in Canberra about the state of the economy (he’s my son’s boss!) and the future Budget. His speech said, ‘we support the hard-working people of this country; they do the heavy lifting and the work; we are not going to increase taxes on these people. We are not going to punish the middle class with taxes on investments when they want to work and save for their future”.

        There was a stunned silence from the lefties of the press!! You could hear a pin drop. Nobody had heard such directness before. Meanwhile, sms were coming and going from our phone from our family far and wide,…”This guy’s a legend; I’m loving this speech…the conservatives are back; he’s taking no prisoners”!!!

        The pendulum always swings!!!!

  • Hybird

    Turkey does not want the flow of refugees into Europe to stop. The Turks have been wanting to see Islam over-run Europe for centuries – and it’s finally happening.

    If Erdogan wanted to stop it all he needs to do is ban the sale of inflatable boats and life-jackets. But knowing him and his family, they are probably supplying them and making lots and lots of money.

  • Fenman

    How many Sunni Syrians has Saudi and the rest of the GCC hypocrites taken in?
    Endogan has done his bit and has seen the cowardice that lies at the heart of the EU, unlike Cameron. The sooner we are out the better, before every town inBritain is turned into a Peterboro’ or Boston. Pity Boris lacks the courage and convictions of his wife.

  • licjjs

    Hybrid below claims that turkey does not want to stop the refugees because it wants the spread of islam. This is exactly right. There is even a name for it: hijra. The saudi king said quite openly last year that his country’s refusal to take any refugees meant that he was spreading islam in Europe. Remember his offer of ‘help’ to Germany was to build two hundred mosques. I do not know what will open the eyes of our dear leaders to the reality. Perhaps they just don’t care. Putin is the only one who sees the necessity of keeping saudi arabia out of Syria and keeping Assad as President. We, the UK, find ourselves on the side of the rebels and aggressors against the legally elected (and largely popular) President of a country which the saudis are intent on turning into an image of their own dysfunctional sunni paradise. I do not find that a good place to be for my country. Recently one of the Syrian Bishops gave an interview in which he said the following:

    “The European media have not ceased to suppress the daily news of those who are suffering in Syria and they have even justified what is happening in our country by using information without taking the trouble to verify it,” he hurled at them (i.e. the journalists he is addressing), condemning notably the press agencies created during the war, controlled by the opposition army, such as the Syrian Observatory of human rights, a major source for western media.

    “You must understand that between the Islamic State and the Syrian government, our choice is obvious. You can condemn the regime for certain things, but you have never tried to be objective,” he accused.”

    ………….

    “Bashar al-Assad has many defects, but you have to realize he has many good points as well,” he explained. “Schools are free, hospitals too, mosques and churches pay no taxes, what government in the region does things like that, be honest? Remember too that if we prefer today to support the government, it’s because we fear the installation of a sunni theocracy (a la saudi arabia) that would deprive us of the right to live on our own lands.” (http://www.bvoltaire.fr/charlottedornellas/sainte-colere-de-larcheveque-dalep,235328)

  • Cobbett

    HungarianPrime Minister Viktor Orban believes European citizens currently face two threats: one, from the Brussels, the second, more migrants from the south. And the reason behind these threats, according to Mr Orban, is Turkey.

    The threat from Brussels,suggests the Hungarian Premier, is the “mandatory quota system” calling
    for the redistribution of thousands of migrants among European Union
    (EU) member states.

    A man who has shown no restraint in combating the refugee crisis in his own way, Orban has already sealed off Hungary’s border with Croatia, now plans to build another razor wire fence on its border with Romania.

    Read more: http://sputniknews.com/europe/20160212/1034645837/hungary-brussels-threat-orban.html#ixzz3zxvXligV

    • anka

      Don’t worry: everything will be fine. Clooney met with Merkel and solved the migrant problem. Just you see.
      http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-35560492

      • mohdanga

        I wonder how many he and his wife will put up in their fancy castle/house on Lake Como? After all, shouldn’t they be subjected to the same ‘enrichment’ as the rest of the Western European countries?

        • Patricia

          “I wonder how many he and his wife will put up in their fancy castle …”

          She’s a human rights lawyer so they’ll be doing their bit by fighting for migrants to stay in their country of choice. There’s quite a rich seam to mine out there.

          • mohdanga

            There won’t be a “refugee” within 100 miles of their place!

      • Cobbett

        Yeah..I saw that one.

  • jaafar Nabhani

    I dont Know why we are allowing Assad and Putin to do what ever they wants in syria , the main reason for all the Killing and misery and the huge refugees tragedy is Assad its his allies russia ,Iran , Iraq, Hizb Allah , and the Shia Militant , no one can deny that Assad and His regime are war criminals , as NATO is not willing to send troops to syria and even not wiling to support turkey , saudi and Qatari offer to protect them and support them from Russia if they sent Troops to syria , the refugee tragedy will go on until all Sunni Muslim and Christians in syria became refugees Assad and Iran are changing the Demography of syria by bringing Shiites from Iran, Afghanistan and Pakistan, and resettle them in the villages and towns that had cleared sectarianly , to stop the refugee flood to turkey and to EU , there should be a safe place inside syria from both terrorist Assad and his Allies and From ISIS and this place

    dont exist and with the the russian directly bombing and dlebritly targing civilans in syria , you can only expect the refugee tragedy to become more severe . Declaring syria as a failed state and declaring the syrian regime as War criminal and thus unfit

    to rull and place all of syria Under the tutelage of the United Nations, this act will required the Approval of all the Security members , and will allow more concret effort

    and collation to take form to fight terrorist and allow sending Assad and his regime to the War Crimes Tribunal , but most propabily New Hitler “Putin” will veto such Attempt , final word to stop the refugee from reaching EU INVADE SYRIA and create Safe zone .

    • Tom M

      “….no one can deny that Assad and His regime are war criminals…….”
      Enlighten us if you will, which of the principal belligerents aren’t war criminals?

      • jaafar

        First to know what is really happing in syria you to know how Assad family came to power , and I think you do , the say that the Syrian rebels are representing terrorist groups and all those fight in Syria are a big in justice to those Syrian young men carting weapons and trying to defend their people , all this terrorist image came as result of Isis and because Isis is using Islam name the west start to generalize that all Syrian rebels who fight Assad under a group with Islamic name is by default a terrorist group and this is a big mistake on the ground the majority of Syrian rebels are Syrian fighting for their people lives and freedom such as alfateh army , Islam army , the rebels in the south , rebels in idleb, rebels in homms and hama, rebels in Al ghouta, , by way I am not Syrian , I am a Jordanian from north jordan and I know a lot about what happen in Syria from Syrian refugees

    • Cyril Sneer

      Syria is a sovereign country and has a right to defend its territory against foreign aggression. That’s exactly what it is doing.

      You have no right to call for regime change in another sovereign country.

      If Assad is a war criminal then so is the USA, KSA, Qatar and Turkey who have been funding ISIS and AQ to commit regime change on another sovereign country.

      Ah and then you call Putin Hitler… just shows that you don’t have a single clue what’s going on.

      Judging by your name you’re a terrorist supporter and against secularism. If you live in the west.,.. emigrate.

      • jaafar

        A regime that used chemical weapons against its own people can’t be legitimized, the Syrian state is governed by war criminals and mass murderers, Syria is a failed state and its situation is threating all it neighbors , saying what happened in Syrian is Syrian government concern is not correct as you can’t just set down allowing Assad to kill hundred of thousands of the Syrian people and do nothing neighboring countries can’t that even if they wanted to , because this region used to be one big country its only after wwi that meddle east as we know it came to existence, you can carve borders and divide countries but you can’t divide people almost every home in my country jordan have some relatives living in Syria the same go for all Syrian neighbors , we just can’t set down and turned a blind eye to what is napping in Syria Assad and his regime are war criminals and they bring thugs’ and criminals and mercenaries to kill and drove the Syrian out of their homes , by the way saying I am a terrorist because you think may name , say a lot about you , I pray to god to fill your heart with hate until its eat what left of your sole and to extend your life to 100 year so you will live miserable lonely live and I am Jordanian live in jordan you can keep the west to your self I am happy in my country

        • Cyril Sneer

          “A regime that used chemical weapons against its own people”

          The Ghouta chemical attacks were perpetrated by the FSA financed by Qatar and KSA.

          I didn’t bother to read the rest of your hysterical post.

          Oh and you’re allergic to full stops. Much like you’re allergic to the truth.

    • Jacobi

      The main reason is the deliberate attempt by Sunni/Saudi/ISIL/Turkey to crush Shia Islam and also to massively further Islamise Western Europe by feeding in (well reported in today’s press) as many Muslim religious migrants as we, or rather Mrs Merkel are prepared to take.
      But todays press also reports things are changing. The idea of rounding up and interning is slowly coming although it has not as yet been thought through.

      The Russians are doing no more for Assad than the Americans have already done for ISIL.

      • jaafar

        What do you know a bout shiia Islam and Sunni Islam , do you know how much Sunni and shiia live in Syria , Saudi, turkey and Qatar are helping the Syrian rebels for their own reasons but this help is used to protect and defend the Syrian people , while Russia help to Assad is helping him killing the Syrian people , one help is used to protect and safe lives the other help is used to kill and destroy and Russia now killing the Syrian by ots own hands , by the way Syria don’t have shiia , Assad is a part of religion called Alawit and they were shiia very long time away before break away and believe that the 4th khalifat Ali is god , Iran only used them to kill and destroy Arab countries and to do as much damage to Arab as possible , because Iranian heat Arab so much as the Arab destroyed their Persian empire,

        • Jacobi

          A lot! I have studied the subject thoroughly. The objectives of Saudi-Arabia in sustaining and subsidising this assault on Syria are now clear.
          Russian is no doubt killing civilians. Well that happens in war time, just as it happened in this country and in Germany during WWII, and just as it happened in 2012 when Saudi-backed ISIL attacked and occupied Aleppo and just as it is now happening where ISIL place their fighting units within civilian area so as to deliberately create casualties for propaganda purposes.
          And I know perfectly well what Alawits are and frankly couldn’t care less. It is irrelevant.
          But I agree with you in a way about Iran, a country I have visited. They are Persians before they are Muslims, and have long memories.

          • jaafar

            I disagree , targeting civilian in any war even during WWII is a war crime and today with extremely accurate smart weapons its even worst , its understandable that some time a smart weapon could go out of control but what Assad Iran and Russia is doing is a war crime and nothing but a war crime they deliberately targeting civilians and using prohibited weapons such as cluster bombs , the second point in my opinion ISIS is sponsored by Assad, Iran and Russia, I know you will disagree but just let me draw the points that lead me to tho conclusion , on year 2012 ISIS presence in Syria was so insignificant that they only have a small group in the north east Syria and they did not have and encounter with Assad , at the same time and even before Assad always threatened that he is the protector of this region from terrorist and of the revolution continued terrorist will threatend the region and even the EU, suddenly ISIS take Iraq 2end largest city Mosul 300 ISIS wearing sandals and armed only with ak47 beat the Iraqi army , the Iraqi army orders to withdraw and leave every thing ,ISIS capture Mosul along with all the Iraqi army weapons dozens of American a1m1 tanks , then ISIS started its show by committing acts that will steer the media attention from Assad leaving Assad free from pressure and out of scope to freely killing the Syrian people , this also serve for other targets , providing Assad allies with justification to send their troops to Syria under the context that they are fighting terrorist , and event justify direct Russian intervention by not only increasing military and diplomatic support of Assad but also sending troops to help Assad in his massacres, for sure you saw how the whole world send hundreds of fighter jets to bombs ISIS in kobani , the same same world turned blind eye when Assad and Russian bombs school and hospitals why? Because ISIS was in kobani
            The world became fixated on destroying ISIS that they neglected and turned a blind aye for all the killing and raping and sectarian cleansing and war crimes committed by Assad and its allies . by empowering ISIS and finance it “American and western intelligent report confirm that Assad is buying oil from ISIS” Assad and its allies succeeded in transforming a revolution where people are fighting a tyrant and blood thirsty war criminal regime to a war against ISIS where Assad and its allies are viewed as partners in war against a terrorist organization that they empowers in the first place , freedom of Syrian people , Assad war crimes became irrelevant

          • Jacobi

            Wrong. Russia is targeting Saudi-backed ISIL positions which have been deliberately placed in civilian areas to deliberately create casualties. If there is a war crime therefore it is Saudi/ISIL that is guilty. As for ISIL being sponsored by Assad don’t be so daft. Go somewhere else. This is supposed to be a serious discussion group
            And by the way the concept of War Crime came in after WWII.

          • Jacobi

            And incidentally, I note you still have not answered Sidor’s question what “what is your religious affiliation”?
            Come on. Give us a hint! I am a Christian by the way. Now you?

          • Jacobi

            Commobn Jaafar. Give us a hint. What particular group do you belong to?

          • Cyril Sneer

            Why the headchoppers of course.

            And… he would want to kill every single Shia and non-Sunni muslim on the planet. Fact.

          • Cyril Sneer

            Russia is not deliberately targeting civilians. There is no tactical or strategic advantage that could possibly be gained by deliberately targeting civilians.

        • Cyril Sneer

          Utter mindless propaganda courtesy of our resident wahhabi nutcase.

    • sidor

      What is your religious affiliation? The Russians are defending the Syrian Christians from genocide perpetrated by ISIS and their wahhabi allies. Do yo really expect that the Christians of Europe support that outrage? The wahhabi fascism must be crashed in the same manner as Nazis were crashed in 1945. Amen.

      • jaafar

        You really believe Former kgb officer is trying to defend the Christian in Syria ! Putin in Syria for one reason preventing a pipeline that will carry the gulf and east Mediterranean gas to the EU and keeping Assad in power serve this goal to do that he will kill every living in Syria if he need to and he will not feel sorry because he is a butcher by nature

        • sidor

          Do you see anyone else around to save the Christians and to defeat ISIS? Or you think that the gas supply from ME is more important than that?

    • Sue Smith

      Yes, all this has the makings of another world war. And don’t forget that Ronald Reagan predicted the next world war would be fought in the middle east.

    • Chris

      Saudi sponsored Wahabi propaganda.

    • Jacobi

      You could equally argue why Russia has been allowing the Americans and Saudis and ISIL and Turkey to attack the Syrian government. Well clearly now the Russians, and probably too the Americans now, judging by their dithering have decided otherwise.
      And in any case whose side are you on. Oh sorry. That is a rather daft and pointless remark.

      • jaafar

        The Syrian rebels are fighting a war criminal regime on the so their supporter and sponsor countries true they have their own interest but they are supporting the Syrian people against a war criminal regime and its allies , on the other hand Russia is not just supporting Assad Russia send its troops to fight along side Assad and helping him kill Syrian people , so their is a big difference

        • Fritz123

          Wowowowowow. a war criminal regime. So what? And which crime? Do you speak of the barrel bombs? Why are they a problem? Because they are killing rebels?

        • Cyril Sneer

          The syrian rebels are war criminals.

          How dare the legitimate government of Syria defend its nation against foreign sponsored terrorists that you sunni sh ts support.

          You’re losing this war, in fact it’s already lost. The next battleground will be Turkey and KSA. Enjoy.

    • johnb1945

      While I agree that Assad is the problem and that his Russian friends are prolonging it, the reason we don’t want to get involved is because we simply don’t understand the tensions, the cultural conflict and the histories and getting involved in the ME on the wrong side has burned us repeatedly. Islamists, especially IS, also think tempting us into ground war fulfils their prophetic eschatology.

      We acknowledge that we do not know what to do or how to balance the various claims made by every party in this – so we now want the various Sectarian and tribal factions of the ME to sort this out themselves.

      Most of all, we want you to stop killing each other.

      Please.

      • Cyril Sneer

        “While I agree that Assad is the problem and that his Russian friends are prolonging it”

        Such rank idiocy.

        Are you allergic to reality John? Russia supporting Assad is bringing a swift end to this war provided Turkey and KSA keep out. Aleppo is cut off, the supply line to the Turkish border has been cut and ISIS are about to sliced up by the SAA when they reach Lake Assad.

        • johnb1945

          Putin is a great example of why your preferred policy of killing everyone ain’t gonna work.

          Does it occur to you that Russian bombing produces random death/ destruction certainly, but also refugees.

          And where do some of them try to go?

          And do you think Putin views this as a desirable by-product?

          Putin knows very well that Europe is full of little Cyril Sneers and he knows exactly how they’ll respond to an influx of migrants that his bombing has created.

          If you don’t want migrants, end the war in Syria. Now Assad is propped by the Russians he thinks he’s going to retake the entire country.

          Unless he accepts that he won’t, we can have a discussion about Russian intervention shortening the war in a few years once it’s over and see which of us was right.

          That’s if a rogue Russian commander hasn’t ‘accidentally’ nuked us.

    • Fritz123

      Assad was a problem because he liked Iran. Thats all. Turkey did sent weapons and the Saudis etc did sent experienced streetfighters from Iraq and Afghanistan. They started to “liberate” cities and this was the beginning of that “civil war”. Now we all like Iran again and Assad is no problem anymore but Turkey and the Saudis are.

      • jaafar

        Assad and its allies are the problem because the are killing civilians , do you know how the Syrian revolution started , Assad Air force intelligent arrested tortured and killed a group of little children in Darea city in the south , Assad is the problem because he used v-x and sarin gas ,barrels bombs, starving millions to death, ethic and sectarian cleansing , bombing schools , hospitals , markets

        • Fritz123

          He shoots back. With the weapons he has. And there are civilian casualties in all wars. Who the victims are does not matter. This may sound cruel but this is the way it is. Everything else is “crybaby”.

          It would be easy if the “rebels” would say: ok, we give up, take your city back and lets talk about the future later. The main problem may be that Arabs are incapable to discuss politics in any other way than “death to (…)”.

          I knew some refugee from Darea who phoned home every day and was happy to tell me five years ago that “experienced streetfighters from Iraq and Afghanistan” had “liberated” his city. I dont say that Syrian police acted in any proper way, but to shoot back is something more than just protest. And it was useless from the beginning and only made things worse. To feel good did not matter.

    • Cyril Sneer

      You must be a Sunni muslim. Your entire life is one big lie like your religion.

      • jaafar

        If there is a big lie its inside your head , the way you. Argue and the way you denied facts established such as Assad using chemical weapons only tell that you are living in a lai even Russia admits that Assad used chemical weapons , regarding your religion I don’t think you qualify to follow any religion or even any moral code
        Thus any religion guides for how humans should help and treat each other kindly could not applied to you and the same for moral code ,

  • Roger Hudson

    We need a new Jan Sobieski oe a Priz Eugen to save us from the Turks.
    I read that Turkey may invade Syria and there be attacked by Russian planes and that could brink in NATO, quite wrong, NATO is a defensive alliance and no country is supported if it is the aggressor.
    Turkey should never have been allowed into NATO, it wasn’t a democracy then, it was just in to get American missiles and spy bases up on the USSR border.

    • Jacobi

      That is now a real possibility, not by accident but a deliberate intent by Ottoman Turkey to bring in America against Russia and increase the chaos which they, the Ottomans, will seek to profit by.

      • Jacobi

        And I now hear that Saudi-Arabia is threatening to send in ground troops to support the Islamic terrorists. Well in a way that is good. No further excuse for kidding ourselves or for the American weapons establishment kidding us. The gloves will be off and maybe this will be the start of the dismantling of the Saudis and their artificial oil based existence.

        • Sue Smith

          At the cost of world peace, I’d suggest to you.

          • Jacobi

            That will come anyway. Islamist strategists reason that they Islam are the only ones who will benefit. It has already started. l

          • Jacobi

            Probably. History has not come to an end you know. The question is how do we react. Supine acceptance or vigorous European (not EU please note ) countermeasures. The conflict stared a long time ago with the twin towers and probably before that.
            So maybe the Americans will forget about their arms sale to Saudi/Turkey and join the Russians

      • Richard Baranov

        Since Turkey is the only NATO country that has attacked another NATO country, I have the feeling that any attempt to drag in America would not go down with the result Turkey would hope for. I do not think that the USA would risk a war with Russia. It is quite clear that Turkey only pays lip service to NATO and is attempting blackmail with the immigrants wanting to enter Europe. Hence Angela Merkel scuttling off to Turkey and attempting to pay them off this year, an attempt that did not work since it has nothing to do with Erdogen’s intentions for Europe.

        • Jacobi

          Turkey should not be in NATO. That is now clear to all, including the Americans. Turkey is taking our lolly, demanding more, threatening to feed even more Islamic religious migrants into Europe while actually carefully planning that all along in any case.
          And some still hint we might bring them, 70 million Muslims, into the EU. What insanity!

          • Fritz123

            The German Turks are all in Angela Merkels CDU party

    • davidofkent

      Turkey was part of CENTO and became a part of NATO when CENTO ceased to be.

  • http://www.ophiuchuscube.com/ Hendrik

    You said the Syrian refugees have a hard time in Turkey because they can not work there, however: they DO have up to £6,000 each for the journey to Northern Europe.
    Yeah right.

    • Derek Lambada

      And the father of Alan Kurdi WAS working in Turkey before he became a child-endangering people smuggler.

      • http://www.ophiuchuscube.com/ Hendrik

        Yes he was, but he thought he could get free dental treatment in Europe, and that is why he put his family in danger, and that is why his 2 sons got killed.
        A parent in the UK would have been arrested for manslaughter for putting his children in such a dangerous situation.

        • George

          Yes, and the soft-touch pro-Muslim Canadian government brought him over to Canada and put him in a nice house and a soft bed—-before, of course, offering him free dental treatment.

          What’s not to like about people smuggling?

          • http://www.ophiuchuscube.com/ Hendrik

            The socialists all over the western world just love those moslems .. why? I don’t know …

          • Derek Lambada

            German dentists recently said it would be many billions of Euros just to fix the refugees teeth. That’s just the ones there already.

          • Sue Smith

            Trudeau is representative of the 30 and 40-something bien pensant. The middle classes will tire of him very quickly, I’m predicting. We were thinking of visiting Canada. I’m making a statement of my disapproval over its government by not going.

        • Sue Smith

          Three working life-jackets would have saved his family. And don’t tell me these weren’t readily available in Turkey where people are making money out of smuggling and all assorted hardware associated with it.

      • Sue Smith

        Don’t let that fact for a minute, sir, interfere with the bleating of the infantile bien pensant. Never a group to let reality get in the way of a good twitter tag, they care as much about the dead boy as I care about bleeding hearts. Oh, and if you point this out to them don’t they become vicious!!!

    • jaafar

      They can work in turkey not officially but the Turks turn a blind eye allowing them to work they even get financial help from Turkish charities , but because they work without permit they accept much lower wages than turks that make problem for the Turks as Syrian start taking hops from the Turks , turkey have its own unemployment problem around 10% of Turkish work force are unemployed so since the refugees lost hope of going back to Syria and they ate looking for a new him they chose western Europe over turkey , life standers in turkey are good but in Germany its much better

  • George

    “if Turkey can’t cope, their migrant problem will quickly become ours”.

    You say Syria’s migrants will become our problem as if we, the people of Europe, should have no say in the matter.

    But don’t you know that Merkel, and virtually the whole Brussels political establishment, publicly told the whole world (entirely against the democratic wishes of the vast majority of Europeans) that everyone was welcome to come to Europe and live off the taxpayer? That’s why over a million (most of them not Syrian) arrived on our shores last year and why millions more are on their way.

    Angela Merkel acted undemocratically. She had no mandate to tell the world’s Muslims to come and settle in Europe. We, the people, are the big losers in all this. Our democratic wishes are being ignored by an EU political class driving a globalist agenda, an agenda that will result in the destruction of our Western culture.

    • sebastian2

      Correct.

      I’d suggest to Turkey that their sunni refugee problem should best be eased by sunni near-neighbours Saudi Arabia, the UAE and Qatar. Apart from anything else, the crisis is largely of sunni (and shi’ia) making. It’s a mohammedan thing so let them sort it out. As it is, they expect kuffir Europe instead to step in and fix the plight – unconditionally. Quite an extraordinary state of affairs really that tells us – or should – much about islam and a mohammedan region that fails its own peoples.

    • jaafar

      Because turkey jordan and Lebanon share borders with Syria that don’t make refugees their problem the Turks are doing every thing they can to prevent the refugees smuggling to the EU but they can’t prevent them from leaving , refugees are outing their lifes and even their children life in dangers to reach the EU , for the love of god some of them cross the sea to Greece swimming if you want them to stay in turkey you need to make them want to stay in turkey how can this be achieved by boosting Turkish economy so much so it can absorb the refugees thus providing them with good life in turkey and not affecting Turkish people so these refugees become a positive influence to the Turkish economy , do I think its cheaper to Invade Syria , put Syria under the UN guardianship and rebuild syria

      • Fritz123

        We could ship them back directly to Syria from Lesbos without Turkey. We should just say yes to Assad and help him to restore law and order.

        • jaafar

          We could also help them in their fight for freedom , the end result of your suggestion is a gigantic massacre if Assad win , Syria will become just an other N. Korea in the middle east , the middle east will be on always on fire , further Assad and its allies wants to empty cities where people don’t want its regime, a type of sectarian cleaning , on the other hand helping the Syrian people in their fight against Supreme war criminals Assad and its allies
          We will win the Syrian people harts and minds and we will see a new democratic and successful state

          • Fritz123

            This is really nonsense. Assad is a nice man, but he shoots back. What people want does not matter as long as they dont shoot.

          • jaafar

            Would you care to tell us how the Syrian revolution started , I live in Jordan in the northern city of Irbid we hosts hundreds of thousands of Syrian refugees, we witnessed the beginning of the Syrian revolution its all caused of Assad and its allies , all syria neighbors advised Assad in the beginning to carry out reforms , free political prisoners and allow free elections and fight corruption it did not listen to Jordanian king or Erdogan advice it only listen to Iran and russia

          • Fritz123

            Well, those are his friends. And Syria is difficult. The main problem IMHO is the constitution. I dont know much of Jordan, but IMHO Syria is much like the Lebanon. The holy land with many different religious groups. No group can be stronger than the other. So there is a limitation of democracy. They must coexist. And I dont think that Muslims would agree. They fight against Asasad because he is no Muslim, wrong? Thanks!!

          • Cyril Sneer

            How many supported the Syrian revolution? Keep in mind that 70% of the population remain within government held territory.

            Your little rebellion was a minority aided and supported by the USA and friends, just like in Ukraine.

          • jaafar

            Ok lets do the math I will only count refugees outside Syria 2.5 M in turkey 2 M in Jordan , 2 M in Lebanon 1.5 in the EU and 1 M scattered around other countries that is around 9 M syria population was 23M before the revolution of Assad killed 500000 jailed 750000 so if all those left inside Syria are living in regime controlled areas it will not reach 70% , Syria is 70 to 75% Sunni Muslims and Assad and its allies are planning to kill as much of the as possible and make the rest refugees, by the way there is 5m refugees inside Syria because Assad destroyed their homes , for example one of Homs largest neighborhood called boboAmro was leveled to the ground last year 35000 of its people were killed 75000 were exiled by Assad to north Syria to areas under the rebels controls

          • Fritz123

            Dear Jaadar, wanted to make another remark, one on language. It is a political term and a legal one. You cant say that there was any “Arab Revolution” or “Syrian Revolution” or “Revolution of the people of Syria” because it was not yet successfull and may never be.

            A revolution is new law by violence or a similar discontinunity and there is none. There may be new law in some cities but there is no new law of Syria. There are some “liberated” cities with their own power. Dont know how much they have used it. But as far as Syria is concerned there was not more than a “Syrian Rebellion” or many. I only see a common green flag.

          • Fritz123

            And how successful was the revolution in Egypt? Ex post it looks as if the guardians of the pyramids never gave the power out of their hand. Maybe there was only a wish for power. In civil law, to give an explanation, it is not the text but the meaning of a treaty that matters. In state law it cannot be much different.

          • Cyril Sneer

            Utter garbage.

            Go find out what Syria was like before this war. Educate yourself. What you’re complaining about will happen if your jihadist friends win.

          • jaafar

            Ok please tell us how Syria was , since you know , by the way I visited Syria many timed , I have family members living their , I live in Jordan and if you geography you will now Syria and jordan share huge border , Syria is north of jordan , further I live in north of jordan , so for sure o can tell you go educate your self about Assad family crimes and how they build a corrupted regime where they treated the Syria as their own farm and the Syrian people as slaves

      • Cyril Sneer

        Only 35% of refugees into Europe are from Syria. And even that figure is in doubt as many lie about their origins and destroy any Identification they have.

        • jaafar

          The lie part is most true , some of the refugees are from Iraq, Egypt ,Afghanistan and other countries , despite that
          The majority are Syrian, and if Assad and its allies did not get a very hard punch in face and no fly zone all over Syria and no safe Areas are enforced by NATO and Syria neighbors expect millions to flee their homes from Aleppo and its surrounding, and large parts of these refugees will go knocking on the EU doors

  • Peter Hirsch

    I think the writer wants us to feel sorry for Turkey. We should not (although we may well feel sorry for the Turks). Turkey, with a Sunni President and a majority of Sunni inhabitants has tried for more than half a decade to overthrow the Shiite President of Syria for reasons that, for a Sunni state, are perfectly reasonable. Turkey acted as the conduit for other Sunni nations, particularly Saudi Arabia, and the United States (or, at least, its CIA), to supply the Syrian rebels with men, training, ammunition, transport and safe havens in order to further the insurrection aimed to remove the Shiite Alawis from power. When al Quaeda and ISIL joined in (and became dominant amongst the anti-regime forces) Turkey assisted in the financing by providing a conduit for the oil from the oilfields under ISIL control.

    The aim of the rebels – even the so-called “moderates” – was to overthrow the secular Syrian state, that treated Moslems, Jews and Christians equally, and to set up an Islamic theocracy.

    The rebels have failed. President Assad’s regime has been, in the circumstances, quite remarkably stable. His people must like him! Russia (unlike the US, which still appears to believe in the Arab Spring) aims to produce stability in the region and Assad and his regime is therefore the party to support. As Russian airpower proves effective against ISIL and its allies, it is no surprise that Turkey has shot down Russian aircraft it can reach. But let no one think that Sunni Turkey is a friend of the West. .

  • StringyJack

    Turkey is far better placed to host syrian refugess than is Europe. They are co-religionists (fellow sunnis) and neighbours. The cultures would be similar. Turkey is a huge country, far larger than any european nation, and has a strong, rapidly growing economy. Syrian refugees would be likelier to find employment in Turkey than in the stagnant, high unemployment, welfare states of europe. The best policy options for europe are strong border protection, return of illegal immigrants, coupled with greater financial assistance to Turkey to help with the costs of housing, feeding, educating and health care of refugees in Turkish camps. Merkel should persuade Turkey to extend work rights to syrian refugees so that they can become productive members of the host nation. Turkey would benefit too. think of the cultural enrichment, the food, etc, etc. Best of all, it would be easy for the syrians to return to their own country when the war is over. Europe must realise that it is not the imperial overlord it used to be with the power and responsibility to solve all the world’s problems. Stop the pretence, stop the moralising and stop the fake pity. Just try and think rationally and behave like a normal country for a change and the problem of illegal migration can be easily solved. Look to Australia for lessons on how it can be done.

  • I want to leave this planet.

    They should be going south to the rich gulf states, they need to pick up the slack not Europe,who will sacrifice it’s own culture whereas the gulf nations would be better placed to host these people without risking it’s identity.

    • Sue Smith

      You need to understand that the Europeans don’t care enough about their identity to want preserve it. You care. I care. But they don’t. Do you see the scale of the problem?

      • I want to leave this planet.

        The EU doesn’t care, the globalists couldn’t give two $hits, but I believe (loony far left aside) that the people do care.We just are not listened to, nor asked what we actually want, we are regarded as cattle.

      • Pioneer

        I think a lot of them do care – but they are being ignored, and even repressed by their governments.

        I fear it is not going to end well. The UK has the opportunity to get of the EU – the sooner the better. To stay in would be suicidal.

  • Richard Baranov

    For Turkey, the “immigrants” are a fifth column who’s purpose is the Islamification of Europe. If you think that extreme then I would direct you to this article in Der Spiegel, in English: http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/erdogan-urges-turks-not-to-assimilate-you-are-part-of-germany-but-also-part-of-our-great-turkey-a-748070.html
    Erdogan Urges Turks Not to Assimilate.” And this…
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y3Bdih42h_0
    MP Ewald Stadler about the Turkish Ambassador in Austria

    • Sue Smith

      You’d have to be bright enough to draw the dots on all of this but I think you’ll find the majority of Germans just are not. My husband spoke to a retired German engineer on a cruise we did to Norway last March. The topic of refugees and immigrants arose and the man simply shrugged his shoulders and said, “what can you do?”.

      And isn’t keeping the original citizenship, religion, culture and language all part of the beautiful ‘cultural diversity’ which is multiculturalism? I’d hate to think what would happen if Germany was part of a broader conflict involving NATO with the middle east!!!

      • Patricia

        “…..And isn’t keeping the original citizenship, religion, culture and language all part of the beautiful ‘cultural diversity’ which is multiculturalism? ”

        No, not if it’s white Anglo-Saxon.

      • Fritz123

        This is maybe a typical attitude of Germans and may explain their non reaction to their gouvernement of 33.

  • Watt

    ‘Turkey’s immigrant problem could soon become ours’

    It already has. Which planet does the author inhabit ?

  • Neil Foss

    It isn’t Russia sending refugees flocking to the Turkish border, its terrorists funded and resourced by turkey fleeing Syria and using refugee crowds to hide amongst, even to the point of forcing crowds to the border by force.
    Turkey is up to its neck in Syrias civil war and getting its just desserts in refugee flows. Now its forcing them on the EU.
    Strong, manned borders will stop the flow. Making it clear there is no streets of gold waiting for the refugees will stem the flow. Merkel should have helped Greece plug its border not issued an open invitation without the support of other members of the EU. She openly showed what Germanys attitude is to the EU. We rule the EU. Now the fourth reich. Get out UK and never look back.

    • Jacobi

      And today we hear in the news not only that Saudi Arabia will have ground troops in Syria but Turkey is now shelling and probably also has ground troops in in Syria.

      Well at least no excuse for denial now. It’s all there clear for anyone to see

      • jaafar

        And what Russia and Iran are doing in Syria dropping candy on schools !

        • Fritz123

          First of all they drop candies on rebels. And shxt happenes, as we all know. We know nothing.

        • Cyril Sneer

          Russia and Iran are there by invite of the Syrian government and in accordance with international law.

          No one else is there legally.

          The best route to ending this war is defeating the jihadist groups by supporting the Syrian government forces and the Kurds. Unless there is some mysterious Democratic Freedom Party due to take power if Assad was removed??

          • jaafar

            The Syrian regime is not legal in the first place , a regime that killed 500000, imprisoned 750000, completely destroyed cities ethnically and sectarian cleansed 9000000 , used barrel bombs cluster bombs chemical weapons on homes schools hospitals and markets, just 2 days a go Assad and its allies bombed 2 hospitals and a school in north Syria ,

  • Spivy

    I wonder what the odds are that the Syrian war will spread into Europe. The complex dynamics are impossible to disentangle and no one knows how this mess will develop. What we do know is that there are millions of people with nothing to lose; and Putin is undoubtably the most competent and masterful politician in the world. He will win.

    • Sue Smith

      I suggested, the minute Russia became involved, that we were looking at a world war scenario. It has all the ingredients of WW1. I’m still of that opinion, though I take a longer view.

    • Jacobi

      The Syrian war already has spread into Europe. Merkel has seen to that.

  • mahatmacoatmabag

    Turkey has no immigrant problem, its all part of the plan to establish the global Caliphate.
    Bellow detailed is the plan behind the mass migration of Muslims to the West.

    ” One day, millions of men will leave the Southern Hemisphere to go to the Northern Hemisphere. And they will not go there as friends. Because they will go there to conquer it. And they will conquer it with their sons. The wombs of our women will give us victory.”

    Taken from a speech made by Houari Boumedienne, president of Algeria at the United Nations in 1974, recorded on video & entered into the official UN protocol.

    Note: the Southern & Northern hemisphere reference dates back to ancient times in Islamic writings when the known world was centered around the Mediterranean , the South being North Africa & the North being Southern Europe from Spain to Greece.

    • Dr Strangelove

      The known world was much wider than the Mediterranean.Alexander the Great reached India. Arab traders sailed to coast of East Africa. The Persians fought battles with the Chinese. Greek academics had figured out centuries earlier the dimensions of the Earth.

      • davidofkent

        ‘The Persians fought battles with the Chinese.’ That one surprises me, so perhaps you could name a battle or two. You could have mentioned, however, that seven Chinese armadas commanded by Admiral Zheng He sailed the world and mapped large parts of it before the then Emperor, Zhu Di, decided to stop all contact with the outside world.

        • Dr Strangelove

          Correction, the Arabs fought battles with China, most famously Battle of Talas in 760.

        • Fritz123

          Well, the world between China and Afrika.

      • mahatmacoatmabag

        You have reading difficulties which I’m sorry that I can’t help you with . I did not mention the Greeks, the Persians, the Indians or the Chinese. They have nothing to do whatsoever with ancient Arab texts or the plans to establish the Caliphate in the areas of the world they knew at the time of the Islams move North & West

      • Jackthesmilingblack

        Not quite. In fact it was Eratothenes, head of the library in Alexandra who calculated the circumference of the Earth in around 240 BCE.

        • Dr Strangelove

          Thanks for naming the man.

          Was Eratothnes not Greek? Alexandria in 240 BCE being part of the Greek World.

    • Jackthesmilingblack

      A nasty outbreak of peace is always bad news for the armaments industry.

  • johnhenry

    Many comments below criticize this Pitel article as akin to an opinion piece. I consider it a welcome piece of objective reporting and commend the author for it.

    • Chris

      Whereas I think it’s the biggest load of garbage I’ve ever read. No wonder the Independent is in the process of going out of business if she is representative of the reporters they employ.

      • Jackthesmilingblack

        You you can’t get rid of your surplus idiots

    • Snowmuncher

      Do you know what “objective” actually means?

  • Pioneer

    You can expect another half million migrants to be sent from Turkey to Europe soon, in addition to those arriving daily from Erdogan’s launchpad.

    • Snowmuncher

      What a great indebtedness all of the EU owes to Mad Mutti Merkel for inviting them to Germany, suspending the Dublin accord and then asking the whole of the EU to pay for them with a EU wide tax on fuel, and then threatening the UK that unless we take in another 90,000, other EU countries will refuse to take back failed asylum seekers.

      Why would anyone want a Brexit?

    • Fritz123

      How many ships to Latakia?

  • Zhang Wei

    Whatever happens it now appears that Putin and Assad will emerge victorious from this stramash.

    • mahatmacoatmabag

      An estimated 470,000 Syrians killed since the war began & an estimated 1.5 million injured. The Syrian conflict is a bloodbath, one which is only going to get worse since the rise of ISIS and now the active Russian military intervention which began last year, one which might have taken a different path if a number of years ago Obama had acted once the “Red Line” of Assads bombing of civilians was breached. Now its too late for that, despite the so called peace talks, it looks like Assad, Iran & Russia are going for outright victory in the West of Syria from the Lebanese border to the Turkish border leaving the Sunni dominated Eastern hinterland a totally devastated free fire zone.

  • whatever name

    “It’s almost inconceivable how many Syrians Turkey has taken in as refugees — around 2.5 million of them so far.”

    It is about the same number of immigrants that Honest Dave let into the UK under the last parliament, over 500,000 per year.

    Inconceivable? You said it.

  • Dr Strangelove

    War results in a refugee crisis. Well you could knock me down with a feather!!!

  • John Andrews

    The Syrian tragedy is an Islamic problem and the refugee crisis should be dealt with by the Islamic countries, with normal financial support from the west.

    • johnb1945

      Clearly it is not an Islamic problem, you numbskull.

      Since when has Germany been Islamic?

      You’d clearly like it to be a self contained Islamic problem, and you’d clearly be happy for them to slaughter away as long as we didn’t catch any cross fire, but setting aside any moral questions we cannot move Turkey further away from Europe.

      • Snowmuncher

        Ad hominem attacks – shows you lost the argument.

        Syria was and still is a civil war between the Assad’s Alawite Shia minority government and the Sunni majority, which make up about 72% of the population. Then Sunni ISIS joined in too.

        Saudi Arabia is a Sunni country and has strict Sharia law. The Syrians are 72% Sunni and their personal law is Sharia and criminal law is based on Sharia. The 2 countries are just 60 miles away, speak the same main language and culturally quite similar.

        It is definitely an Islamic problem, but unfortunately Merkel decided to start her own personal legacy project in the twilight of her career driven by narcissism and need for atonement for Germany’s past sins. Now the whole of the EU has to suffer because of her.

        • johnb1945

          Oh puhleaseeeee.. If you’re going to start citing logical fallacies (as if Logic is of any value when discussing moral burden) then your statement ad hominem attacks show you have lost the argument is a non sequitur. And probably a load of other things I am not even interested in considering.

          The war has Islamic sectarian causes and is being fought out, largely, by Muslims.

          OK?

          Setting aside all questions of morality, geographical proximity and the huge number of people displaced by the war have rendered it a problem which affects non-Muslim Europe too.

          This is a fact. Denial helps nobody.

          • Snowmuncher

            I’ve never heard someone citing an ad hominem attack as a non-sequitur. It’s a like someone having an argument in a bar and one of them punches the other in the face knocking him to the floor, The victim of the punch then protests that the physical violence shows that person lost the argument. The aggressor then says “but that’s non-sequitur”

            Do you realise how utterly ridiculous you sound?

          • johnb1945

            You made a statement to the effect of “you have mounted an ad hominem attack therefore you have lost the argument”.

            This is a non sequitur.

            No, it is not ridiculous. If you wish to demonstrate why I have lost the argument, be my guest.

            I would suggest formal logic is of little, if any value, in discussions such as these.

          • Snowmuncher

            Please read my comment above again, this time engaging your brain before tapping your keys.

          • johnb1945

            Look – you introduced formal logical fallacies to this discussion, not me.

            A ridiculous thing to do. It suggests there is a logically, objectively correct answer to the original question of whether this is a Muslims only problem. The idea that logic can give us a clinching single truth in this discussion is, quite simply, absurd.

            And, ironically, the statement in which you accused me of a logical fallacy was, itself, a non-sequitur.

            OK?

            If you want to say “name calling suggests your argument is weak” then that is different, but please don’t suggest it is indicative of a logical fallacy.

          • Snowmuncher

            Address this directly:

            “It’s like two men having an argument in a bar and one of them punches the other in the face knocking him to the floor, The victim of the punch then protests that the physical violence shows that person lost the argument. The aggressor then says “but that’s non-sequitur”

            You are honestly saying that the aggressor punching the man he was debating with won the argument?

            It is the equivalent of playing chess and wiping the board of the pieces. You lost – accept it with some grace.

          • johnb1945

            OK, I suppose I will waste a bit of time addressing this directly.

            Logical truth is independent of violence or insult.

            I could argue that “1+1 = 2”
            You could argue that “1+1 = 3”

            I could insult you and physically assault you in defence of my position and I would still be right and you’d still be wrong.

            OK?

            It is therefore wrong for you to suggest I have logically lost an argument solely because I called someone a numbskull. It is, quite literally, irrelevant.

          • Snowmuncher

            Someone who does not have the intellect to win a discussion through reasoned argument but uses primitive personal insults clearly has lost the argument, and this trumps any non-sequitur, and is entirely logical. Think of a chimp not being able to complete a puzzle (that a human can compete with ease) and in his simple minded fury smashes the puzzle to pieces. The chimp has shown he has lost, and if that was pointed out to him by his human master, and the chimp was able to sign “that’s non sequitur”, he would still have lost.

            But I fully understand why you cannot grasp that.

          • johnb1945

            So you’re trying to prove I lost the argument because I used an insulting word by likening me to a chimp and questioning my intellect?

            Interesting.

            If you bother to read the post which you found so offensive you will see that I outlined why this is not simply a Muslim problem. I subsequently clarified this.

            Turkey is right next door to Europe. If we simply do nothing on the grounds that this is a Muslim problem, the refugees will carry on making the short hop to Greece and Europe.

            If we choose to ignore this on the grounds that it is not our problem, it will become our problem very quickly.

            In other words, whichever way you look at this, the Syrian refugee crisis is a European problem which European, non-Muslim countries have to address.

            Yes?

            It’s really very simple.

          • Snowmuncher

            I’m afraid John that you are imagining that I am “likening” you to a “chimp”

            It was simply a metaphor. Animal metaphors are very common, but it does not mean someone is comparing you to that animal.

            You need to calm down, and take a rest.

          • johnb1945

            I’m perfectly calm, but you have taken this off topic, first by declaring the debate was over due to some spurious, non-existent logical fallacy, then by trying to prove why you were correct to assert this.

            Do you accept that this is a problem non-Muslims have to address?

            Do you accept that shrugging our shoulders and saying “It’s a Muslim thing, let them get on with it” is, simply, unrealistic?

            And you obviously were suggesting I was a chimp.

          • Fritz123

            It starts to be a European problem if we dont ship them from Lesbos directly back to Latakia.

          • johnb1945

            It’s our problem the moment refugees try to come to Europe.

          • Fritz123

            Lesbos -> Latakia.

      • John Andrews

        The tragedy is in Syria. It is not in Germany. Syria is on the eastern shore of the Mediterranean. It is not part of Germany (which has borders on the Baltic and the North Sea).

        • johnb1945

          Right. There are millions of Syrians crossing from Turkey into Europe as we speak, making this a de facto problem for traditionally non-Muslim European countries.

          They can cross the few miles between Turkey and Europe on an inflatable in a couple of hours.

          Unless you know of some way to move Turkey and Syria further away from Europe, perhaps out into the middle of the Atlantic, or better, Pacific Oceans, this makes it a problem for non-Muslims.

          • Snowmuncher

            What rubbish you write.

            If the EU adopted an Australian policy of taking the boats back from whence they came the problem would stop, at least in the Med.

            Guardian 22Apr15 “But the (Australian) policy did largely stem the flow of asylum-seeker vessels to Australia. Since the government came to power, only 16 boats have made the journey to Australia. Only one has been successful. No deaths have been reported.”

            Taking the emotionally incontinent soft softly David Schama ostentatiously virtue signalling approach that the EU under the narcissist Merkel has driven forward we have nightmare situation we have now which, as warned by people like me, but denied by people like you led to 126 Gang rapes in Cologne on NYE et al and 130 slaughtered by Islamist Jihadis in Paris and thousands drowned in the Med.

            Give yourself a big pat on the back.

          • johnb1945

            So… in other words, it is something that we have to address and find a solution to, therefore it is our problem?

            Your solution happens to be gun boats (at what cost?) and offshoring (where?), but regardless, unless the gunboats are funded and manned by Muslims and the offshore camps are located in Muslim countries this will still be a de facto problem for non-Muslims to deal with, i.e. a problem for non-Muslims.

            The original point.

          • Snowmuncher

            Who mentioned gun boats? A typical emotionally incontinent over-dramatic David Schama response to a sensible solution to a human problem.

            The typical one is “I do not support mass immigration” Emotionally incontinent liberal “Oh, so you’re saying you don’t want any immigration – the NHS would collapse”

          • johnb1945

            You said the we should implement the Australian solution.

            I took you at your word.

            You know how the Australians deal with this? They send out armed coast guard boats and shepherd migrants vessels to offshore camps.

          • Snowmuncher

            The point is you are using emotionally incontinent terms like “gun boats”. That term is never used when the drowning migrants are picked up from the Med preventing them from drowning and thereby saving thousands of live – by naval ships. It’s just the same slippery disingenuous nonsense spouted by the liberal left that has got us into this mess in the first place.

          • johnb1945

            Back to the original point.

            Is the refugee crisis exclusively a Muslim problem?

            The fact that we have to do something….. anything to address it, be it gun boats, naval ships, improving the lot of refugees in places like Turkey etc. etc. suggest there is no way we can isolate ourselves from it.

            I’m not even going to address whether we should isolate ourselves even if we could.

            The fact is that the proximity of Turkey (and Syria) to Europe means we cannot.

            This problem is, therefore, one which transcends the Muslim world and comes right into our own back yard, forcing us to do something about it whether we wish to or not.

            It is our problem, not just a Muslim one.

          • Fritz123

            The problem starts allready with the label “refugee” instead of “migrant”. This whole “refugee” business is nothing but a delegitimisation of Assad. The literature of old Egypt is full of such cases, see the Papyrus Berlin 3022. It starts with confusion,panic, and ends with the return of the loved one.

          • Cyril Sneer

            They stop people entering the country illegally. And if we had done that there wouldn’t be a refugee crisis in Europe.

            And the whole refugee thing is a myth, most are not refugees, they’re illegal economic migrants. But people like you refuse to make that distinction and thus millions will arrive here, accepted by people like you exasperating the crisis further and ensuring those who really do need help, those who are genuine refugees will not get the help they need because of this seething mass of illegal economic migrants riding in on the back of the real refugees.

            You may feel all warm and fuzzy with your fake virtue signalling but in reality it’s people like you who are responsible for the thousands of drownings in the Med.

          • johnb1945

            Why don’t you bog off? Unless you can show me where I suggested accepting millions of refugees.

          • Fritz123

            We could ship them from Lesbos back to Latakia but we dont do that. Our freedom.

      • Fritz123

        It was not Germanys problem. Germany has made it its problem.

        • johnb1945

          Right. So it is not solely a Muslim problem. Thank you.

          • Fritz123

            You are the logic freak…well, I disgree.

  • Jackthesmilingblack

    Our friends In Parliament
    They all on our side
    Sometimes they talk tough
    But you know it’s a lie
    Immigration is a good thing
    On that they all agree
    The only ones can stop it
    Are the wicked BNP

    • EUSSR 4 All!

      SWP provocateur alert.

    • Jacobi

      Fits the tune “Daisy, Daisy”. but we need another two lines?

  • Jackthesmilingblack

    Let’s see now, what could Muslim immigrants in UK possibly object to in British culture:
    -alcoholic beverage consumption
    -gambling, specifically betting shops
    -immodest behavior by women in public
    -pigs, dogs
    -not complying with Muslim food fetishes
    -all religions other than Isłam

  • Jackthesmilingblack

    When you list all the reasons that Isłam is totally incompatible with western values, then realise that Muslims fanatical adherence to the Koran is at the root of all these differences, you arrive at the painful conclusion that the followers of the Prophet have no place in Western Europe. But looks like you’re stuck with um now, Britisher pals. Thanks misguided, ill-advised, naive politicians (aka traitors). You will let me know how thîs social experiment works out won’t you. But I have to say I suspect it will end in tears.

    • johnb1945

      Oh do shut up.

      Muslims are hardly different from anyone else when it comes to religion.

      You find that the desire for an easy life is far more universal than that for ideological struggle, among Muslims as among anyone.

      • Snowmuncher

        Really? You do not have a clue what you’re talking about do you?

        • johnb1945

          You can judge Islamic doctrine by the Sunnah and Qur’an, but you can only judge Muslims by interaction with them.

          On that basis, how many Muslims do you know and have you interacted with?

          I’d be surprised if it’s a single one, but please give me a figure.

          • Snowmuncher

            2 close friends, 1 who I’ve known for 25 years. Plus I’ve lived in worked in ME and know this region very well.

            You’ll find many of those concerned about the Islamist threat here in the UK know it much better than those clueless individuals who claim it is all the public’s imagination.

          • johnb1945

            Muslims here are quite different from those you encounter in the ME.

            I married a Muslim.

            There is a threat, but the threat is sustained by a minority of zealots.
            The number of British Muslims I know must number well into double figures, and all bar a couple are purely formal and nominal.

            I know of one Salafi, and almost everyone thinks that both he and his wife are otherworldly weirdos who should bog off to Saudi Arabia (where they spend half their time anyway).

            There is a danger with the kind of statement I replied to that people start to prejudge Muslims, and start to believe that all Muslims are part of some internally coherent and inevitably murderous conspiracy to bring about the rule of Allah.

            Such prejudice drives radicalisation and division, when the majority formal, moderate Muslims are people we need to help us.

            It isn’t helpful, that is all.

            I don’t deny there is an issue, but it is going to be exacerbated by people harbouring prejudices abut Muslims.

          • Snowmuncher

            I know and have worked with dozens of both British and non British Muslims. I know many English and European women who have married Muslims.

            Your knowledge is very unlikely to be representative of Muslims in Britain especially because the scale of immigration is so vast now that more than half were not born here.

            You should read the recent book by Innes Bowen, BBC journalist, who spent 2 years researching British Mosques. She found that 51% are controlled by Muslim extremists – Afghani Deobandis and Saudi Wahabbis. I suspect you’re not in that type of group.

            Even the Guardian has shown polls that give an idea of the mindset of too many British Muslims. http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2009/may/07/muslims-britain-france-germany-homosexuality A bit old but I am certain attitudes are just the same now.

          • Snowmuncher

            “I married a Muslim.”

            Presumably, with the name “John”, married a female Muslim. How fortunate for you it was not the other way round given Islam’s horrendous oppression of women.

          • monsieur_charlie

            I think you are using the word prejudice in the wrong context. It does means to pre-judge, does it not?
            With their enthusiasm to exterminate each other within their own countries coupled to their intent on dealing death and destruction to infidels throughout the western world, it seems exactly the right word to use now.

          • johnb1945

            So it is appropriate to prejudge all Muslims, or even a majority, as sharia luvvin’ head choppers? Bad people who wish to rape your lady friends, chuck gays off buildings and convert you at the point of a gun?

            This is quite dangerous.

            In this country most Muslims don’t believe in that stuff, and their opinion is changing. It’s all to.play for.

            Treat them with prejudice and they will put up their own walls, and we will have radicalisation.

            Do you not see this?

          • monsieur_charlie

            Two questions you pose. The answer to the first one is yes. To the second, well, I couldn’t give a flying fcuk.

          • johnb1945

            In that case, you are part of the problem.

          • monsieur_charlie

            Rather a pretentious answer, as is your whole argument.
            BTW, how come you married a Muslim when when they are not allowed to marry men of other religions. Either you converted to Islam , which you haven’t declared, or your “wife” is not a real Muslim. Either way your argument sounds completely ingenuous.

          • johnb1945

            Because she’s no longer a practising Muslim. As someone who once went to mosque, ate halal food and whose parents still do, she would describe herself as a cultural Muslim.

            The only thing I object to is completely unqualified criticism of Muslims, rather than Islam.

            ‘Muslims’ include people such as my wife.

          • SmellyFingers

            You married a gentile.

          • Snowmuncher

            You’ll find the UK security services are also very concerned. That’s why for the first time in MI5’s history the head went onto Radio 4:

            “The scale of the domestic threat was revealed after Andrew Parker became the first MI5 director-general in the agency’s 106-year history to give a live broadcast interview. Intelligence officials had foiled six plots in the past year, he said yesterday”

            http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/news/uk/crime/article4560510.ece

          • Marvin

            I have tried many times but I can’t get past the black bin liners. Apart from breeding like bacteria, what else are they fit for?

          • johnb1945

            Nice.

            Well, I married one.

            She has never worn a “bin liner” to my knowledge.

            She wasn’t involved in he twin towers attack, she has no desire to implement Sharia, she is a university educated professional. Most of her middle class Muslim friends have the requisite 2 children, in common with their white middle class friends.

            Likening them to bacteria is just a bit… well… racist, really.

            I suppose that’s what you are – a racist?

          • Snowmuncher

            This is the problem John, your opinion is based on a very misrepresentative sample based around your wife who for you, and anyone else, cannot separate your feelings from the reality.

            I suggest you read that Pew Research 2013 that I sent you the link and then come back with a better grasp of the subject. You have not read it properly have you?

            You mentioned your wife has no desire to implement Sharia law. Interesting Wikileaks info that you may be interested in:

            “A survey of 600 Muslim students at 30 universities throughout Britain found that 32 per cent of Muslim respondents believed killing in the name of religion is justified.

            A U.S. diplomatic cable from January 2009 quoted a poll by the Centre for Social Cohesion as saying 54 per cent wanted a Muslim party to represent their world view in Parliament and 40 per cent want Muslims in the UK to be under Sharia law.”

            You strike me as being loyal but naive. You know what “Taqiyya” is I suppose. That’s why I mentioned MI5 on Radio 4 before as they are more likely to see the real and true picture, and that would explain the unprecedented broadcast. Your self belief that you “know” because you are married to a Muslim is quaint. That’s the diplomatic version.

          • johnb1945

            Whatever. I’m not interested in any of that stuff.

            We all know Muslims are one big, murderous conspiracy to take us all back to the 7th century.

            So what to do about it?

            Deport the Muslims who live here?
            Ban Islam?
            Call them names?
            Prejudge them all?
            Pogrom them?
            Mass murder them?

            All a tad hysterical and disproportionate, I might suggest. Maybe we could have a little faith in our society, our values and its attraction to Muslims, and the humanity of Muslims themselves. Maybe we could work with the majority moderates to identify and better integrate those at risk of radicalisation. That is one option that won’t result in mass bloodshed or neo-fascistic targeted laws.

            I’m just being pragmatic here.

          • Snowmuncher

            Again, you performed a bit of dramatic fictional theatre by pretending I suggested one or more of those above. The liberal left do that a lot and we both know why.

            No, the first step would be to reduce non-EU immigration to the levels promised by Cameron twice, pre the 2010 election and pre the 2015 election. He promised (& in fact signed a “contract” with the electorate to that effect) that Total net immigration should be no more than 99,999 a year and therefore non-EU immigration, which is mostly from Muslim countries, much of it through arranged marriages with migrants from their own Muslim countries, should be no more than 50,000 every year. Don’t forget that is NET immigration – gross immigration is close to 3/4 of a million every year.

            So I’d want just what we were promised by our lying devious PM in a contract which he signed stating “kick me out if I fail” electorate. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2979135/I-ll-cut-immigration-kick-Cameron-told-voters-election-numbers-arriving-soared-300-000.html

          • Billy McFaddyen.

            Don’t lay the racist card johnb. It’s so like… yesterday. We adults are beginning to talk sensibly about the real threats faced by western civilization.

          • johnb1945

            Likening other peoples to bacteria is kind of racist, though, isn’t it?

            What do you do with bacteria? Do you give them basic rights and treat them like people or do you give them domestos?

            It’s a dehumanising, sinister analogy to draw. So don’t draw it if you don’t want to be called racist.

          • Cyril Sneer

            “Likening other peoples to bacteria is kind of racist, though, isn’t it?”

            You clearly have no idea what racism is.

            Are these people segregated by race? No it’s by religion, not race.

            Fact is this John, you see Islam as a predominantly brown skinned religion and Christianity (incorrectly) as a white skinned religion.

            It’s you that is the racist.

          • Sue Smith

            Yes, it must be pretty difficult to read and listen to this stuff when you know that in your case the opposite is true. A bit like saying all Germans were Nazis. However, I would say the majority of immigrants are NOT at all like your partner/wife. And experience has shown they are reluctant to integrate and want their own religion and cultural practices – much of it medieval – to remain intact. And the clever ‘host’ countries are only too willing to go along with it.

            I read an item yesterday written in Spiked which said that, in fact, the problem wasn’t with migrants but the nations themselves – which have no discernible cultural values they think worth defending etc. etc. And the writer suggested most muslim migrants understood all about that great void in western European life and were only too happy to act upon it and oblige with their own particular values system – to which they remain trenchantly loyal.

          • johnb1945

            Of course it is true that we have a rampant self absorbed, nihilist consumer culture.

            And yes, it is no bulwark to.a culture which is strong.

            But Islam is not a strong culture. It’s a culture people leave, or adhere to in a purely nominal sense.

            It’s strength is exaggerated wildly.

            And ghettoisation is something specific to certain Muslim subgroups – bengalis and mirpuris particularly.

            If you prejudge all Muslims you will strengthen the identity, and consequent identity politics, which are about the only thing tying people to Islam.

            Can you not see this?

          • johnb1945

            The other thing which people don’t understand, because they choose not to – it’s easier to stick with comfortable prejudices after all – is the changes occurring within the Muslim community. Right now.

            Radicalisation is, in some sense, a reaction to the fact people are leaving Islam. It’s an aggressive re assertion of the identity.

            With each atrocity committed by an islamist more and more Muslims question and leave the religion.

            why? Because Muslims, in general, don’t like killing other people any more than other people like killing other people.

          • monsieur_charlie

            Well, you could have fooled me. What is happening in the Middle East now then?

          • johnb1945

            BTW Sue, to be clear, criticism of Islam is not racist.

            Likening Muslims to Bacteria is racist.

            That’s the kind of wretched, inflammatory, dehumanising sentiment which I object to.

            It says that Muslims are not human, therefore we cannot interact and deal with them as humans. We must give them the proverbial dose of domestos.

            It’s a hateful, spiteful, small minded little comment – the kind of thing contained in 3rd Reich propaganda about Jews, or, the kind of thing Islamic State say about us.

            We should be above that.

          • Vinnie

            If I convert to Islam and then criticise the religion (as do many Christians of the Catholic church) am I racist? being that I am white, most are arabic and some Christians are Arabic?

            It’s all very confusing isn’t it.

          • Sue Smith

            Steering away from emotion and towards known facts about non-compatible social and dogmatic religious behaviours is the only way to go. Name-calling and profanities merely play into the hands of our enemies – i.e. those within our own societies who don’t share values they think worth fighting for and who have never fought in wars to defend freedom and values. As somebody wrote in “The Australian” letters section today, “The present leaders of the western world have a lot to answer for, because like so many of old, the soft life has made them weak to the point where they have lost the will to stand up for what they have been LEFT IN TRUST” (by people who fought two world wars).

          • Cyril Sneer

            “Likening Muslims to Bacteria is racist.”

            Islam is not a race.

            Neither is Christianity.

            Would likening Christians to bacteria be racist? Hardly.

            Likening muslims to bacteria is actually very very accurate.

      • Snowmuncher

        By the way, following on from Jack above, you do realise well respected Pew Research estimates UK’s Muslim population in 2050 will be 11.3%? That was estimated before the migrant crisis, and before non-EU immigration grew to the scale of the last 3 years. Given that London’s Muslim population is around 15% (based on 2011 national census plus some), and is growing far more quickly than the UK as a whole, London’s Muslim population will be at least 35%, and probably much higher at more than 40%. There will be a Muslim majority in London soon after 2050, and if something like Syria happens to, say Nigeria, with a population now about 180 million and in 2050, 440 million, that may come much more quickly.

        • johnb1945

          You keep on quoting research stats, surveys, newspaper articles etc.

          So what?

          I bet 10% of commenters on this site would approve deportation of Muslims on pain of death. That’s a decent proportion, and a radical position.

          I’m not interested in what proportion X of Muslims believe about the Sharia, religious violence or cartoons about Muhammed. I don’t care 2 hoots. I care about how people interact and treat each other, and generally, I believe that violent radicalism and narrow prejudice is a slippery slope. If you respond to supposed Islamic extremism with extremism of your own, then you’ll make the problem worse, not better.

          In this way a small problem will become a big one.

          Nobody understands this better than Islamists such as Islamic State. They know that European anti-Muslim radicalism will aid their attempts to radicalise European Muslims.

          So, in summary, I don’t care what all of these Muslims supposedly think. I care what people like you intend to do about it. I care whether this would be something ridiculous and quasi-fascist, or something proportionate and reasonable.

          OK?

          • Snowmuncher

            Johnb1945 wrote

            “You keep on quoting research stats, surveys, newspaper articles etc. So what?”
            “I bet 10% of commenters on this site would…”

            And that neatly sums up the whole discussion for me and anyone with half an intellect and half an education.

            OK?

          • johnb1945

            Except you don’t live according to that principle. You think that surveys and studies inform your own well balanced viewpoint, rather than your prejudices and ability to assimilate information.

          • Snowmuncher

            Thank you for telling me what I think

            …based on a brief exchange of on line comments.

            By the way, you may have noticed from some of my source references that the newspaper I read the most is the Guardian, even though I pay for a subscription to the Times. I like to see stories from opposing and different perspectives, and I have a love of different cultures.

          • johnb1945

            I can only judge what you think on what you tell me.

            Go out and meet some British Muslims and you will find all sorts. Yes, you will find ardent Salafi Sharianistas, but you will also find a large number of partially observant, completely secular, nominal, couldn’t give a #### Muslims. You will also find Muslims who are observant but follow explicitly peaceful and plural sects such as the Ahmediyya.

            The problem with your (and others’) broad brush stroke remarks is that you include the latter in your aspersions. If people act on these kind of assumptions (prejudices) then a whole load of people who aren’t particularly religious or would never support militancy would be affected.

            It is about having a sense of perspective. That’s all.

          • Snowmuncher

            I meet British Muslims every day. I already told you this.

            That’s what polls, books, research and studies are for. They take you out of your narrow little perspective and ingrained prejudices based on one own’s small life – and I say that having lived and worked in over 20 countries all over the world, and traveled to around 100.

            The only alternative would be to clone oneself a thousand times and have a neural network connecting all the clones and yourself. I presume you have not done this.

            Instead try reading some of the books, polls and studies I’ve mentioned and you might learn something outside your immediate narrow sphere.

          • mohdanga

            Why is it that Muslims, even if they are “secular”, still describe themselves as Muslims??

          • Gypsy John.

            ..

          • Jeremy Poynton

            “supposed Islamic extremism” as related by the so-called BBC regarding so-called ISIS, yes? Islamism is ridiculous and non-quasi-fascist, that much we do know. Appeasers, well, we know all about them as well.

          • johnb1945

            Unless you think an appropriate response to Islamism is our own form of anti Islamic fascism then you and I likely have very little to disagree about.

            So tell me if that us what you believe in or go on your way.

          • Jeremy Poynton

            I believe we need to combat Islamism with all our might, as it is barbaric and unenlightened. Indeed, until Islam has its own enlightenment, we should have as little to do with it as possible.

          • johnb1945

            Well I think the idea that Islam can have a reformation and enlightenment is parochial.

            The reformation and enlightenment were Christian things, and the roots of them lay in Christian teachings. Islam has different teachings.

            And I don’t know what “fighting it with all our might” means. We have nuclear weapons and the ability to wipe out millions of people at a stroke. I assume you are not suggesting this.

            The best weapon we have against extreme salafi Islam is free speech.

            So you should resist those who call for criticism of Islam to be deemed racist.

            That is all that is required. Muslims are not inherently stupid or violent, they see with their own eyes where literalist interpretations of Islam go. A forum where it is acceptable to have an open and honest conversation about this is all that is required to deal with it.

          • Jeremy Poynton

            Mostly agree – but to suggest that to hope for an Islamic enlightenment is parochial and then state

            “So you should resist those who call for criticism of Islam to be deemed racist.

            That is all that is required. Muslims are not inherently stupid or violent, they see with their own eyes where literalist interpretations of Islam go. A forum where it is acceptable to have an open and honest conversation about this is all that is required to deal with it”

            confuses me, as to me it is as parochial as what I say. In either case, there is no point in us holding our breath on either matter, for a very simple reason. Islamism is Islam’s problem. Only Islam can re/solve it. However, there is no sign of any desire or will to do so. As my sainted Irish Granny used to say – It will end in tears. Though rather worse than tears, I fear. I have no faith whatosever in Islam’s ability to reform itself – for the simple reason, that it has no desire to do so.

          • monsieur_charlie

            “Muslims are not inherently stupid or violent, they see with their own eyes”. Their problem is that they have a window on life of about 48 hours. They forget what happened yesterday and they have no interest in what will happen tomorrow. Everything is down to Gods will, so why should they bother?

          • Todd Unctious

            No past and no future. No pride and no aspiration. No interest and no curiosity. No hope and no friends. No trust and no longer wanted.
            Inherently stupid and violent and out of date.

          • Cyril Sneer

            “The best weapon we have against extreme salafi Islam is free speech.”

            HAHAHAHAHAHAaaa well we’re f cked then. Wake up you fool, your free speech is an endangered species.

          • hobspawn

            Islamism is islam. It can not have an ‘enlightenment’. It is the immutable word of god. It is perfect and can not be changed. Slaughter works.

          • hobspawn

            I’m beginning to think that you don’t know what you have married into:

            Quran (47:3-4) – “Those who disbelieve follow falsehood, while those who believe follow the truth from their Lord… So, when you meet (fight Jihad in Allah’s Cause) those who disbelieve, smite at their necks till when you have killed and wounded many of them, then bind a bond firmly (on them, i.e. take them as captives)… If it had been Allah’s Will, He Himself could certainly have punished them (without you). But (He lets you fight), in order to test you, some with others. But those who are killed in the Way of Allah, He will never let their deeds be lost.”

          • johnb1945

            I’m well aware of what the Qur’an and Sunnah say, my point is that you cannot prejudge Muslims on it because not all of them believe all of it and many believe none of it, yet still describe themselves as “Muslim” for cultural reasons.

            Others do believe it, but read something different into it, as you know Islam has two versions, Mecca (peaceful) and Medina (violent). Both are valid, and most Muslims are Mecca Muslims.

            Muslim relations to the foundational canon of Islam is complex and varied. If it were as simple as you seem to think it is, then every single Muslims would be out there obeying the commands to carry out Jihad, and this clearly is not the case.

          • hobspawn

            Thanks for confirming my suspicions.

          • johnb1945

            You are confusing “suspicions” with “prejudices” and you don’t have a very high burden of proof.

      • monsieur_charlie

        Maybe you should try living in a Muslim country as a Christian before you shoot your mouth off.

        • johnb1945

          Maybe you should meet some European Muslims before shooting your own off.

          Quite varied people and also in a transitional state away from the conservatism of their own homelands.

          • monsieur_charlie

            So, you haven’t!

          • johnb1945

            Married to one. In fact. And you?

          • monsieur_charlie

            Spent five years living and working in the Middle East. I had more sense than to marry one.

          • johnb1945

            What if you’d met one ‘ho woz well fit?

          • SmellyFingers

            You mean the cherry pickers?

      • ungagged

        johnb, did you say ” Muslims are hardly different from anyone else when it comes to religion”. may I ask you to confirm that with the victims of their atrocities all over the world to see if they agree with you, the ones that are alive that is ?

  • TheJustCity

    Refugees can be amazingly tough and resourceful, but their living conditions in Turkey — though better than they would be in Lebanon and Jordan — are far from ideal.

    An insidious piece of agendist writing, as might be expected of a correspondent for the ‘Dependent’. And let’s have some objectivity rather than incontinent emotionalism – those ‘far from ideal’ conditions don’t equal a humanitarian crisis. That is something which the Yazidis, Sudanese Christians or non-Muslim Darfurians have certainly suffered.

  • Snowmuncher

    Laura Pitel wrote “It’s almost inconceivable how many Syrians Turkey has taken in as refugees — around 2.5 million of them so far.”

    Since 1991, the UK has allowed in 6.5 million non-EU immigrants (ONS Gross data) most of whom come from the developing world and most of that from Muslim countries. This massive scale of immigration is unprecedented in UK history. That’s what is inconceivable.

    Turkey, a country 6 times the size of this country, “taking in” 2.5 million migrants from its neighbour is much less of a deal. This is because the migrants are in limbo because Turkey has signed a limited version of the 1951 Refugee Convention, unlike all EU member states. Turkey’s main obligations to “refugees” are only those from Europe! Furthermore, UNHCR, with a budget of $6 Billion pa and going up very rapidly, manages and funds much of those refugees / migrants, both by setting up camps and funding many of those not in camps. It even goes as far as paying private rents. Very few of those migrants will ever be given permanent leave to stay or Turkish citizenship. Most or many will probably end up in Germany and Sweden obtain EU citizenship and a large portion will move to the UK (and especially London), as has has been evidenced by the pro mass immigration left leaning think tank, Migration Observatory, from Oxford University.

    So Laura Pitel (the author of this piece), suggest you get your facts right before publishing in the Spectator.

    • ungagged

      The thing that always upsets me is the refusal of any pro immigrantion person, for whatever reason, REFUSING to accept the fact that that the UK land mass is infinitely smaller than Germany, France or Turkey and they talk about taking in the same numbers. It is nonsensical.
      What frightens me is the fact that the majority of voters in this country have NEVER known Britain as a truly independent country, making our OWN laws, good and bad, having our own immigration and asylum policies and trading with the whole world wherever and when ever we wanted to. It is these people who know nothing other than the EU and Germany ruling our daily lives that worry me. Do they vote for Britain or Germany/EU ?

      • Snowmuncher

        It’s not just the area of the UK, It is

        1. the population density of England which just recently became the highest of any EU country (ignoring tiny Islands like Malta), overtaking the Netherlands.
        2. The housing crisis. Our living standards in terms of housing are plummetting because demand from immigration has pushed up prices to stratospheric heights, where normal people cannot afford to buy, and most people are having to live in smaller and smaller homes in worse areass.
        3. Demographics of the UK are very different to Germany’s. Mainly because of immigration UK’s population is increasing by 500,000 every year. Germany’s is falling, until 2015.
        4. Saudi Arabia is 40% richer than the UK per person, is 60 miles from Syria, is bigger than UK, Germany, Italy, Ireland, Spain and France combined, is not just Muslim but SUNNI Muslim like 72% of Syrians, and has the same language as Syria, and culturally is very similar. How many Syrian refugees has Saudi taken per the UNHCR? Zero.

        • ungagged

          Well put. I just wish more of the younger brigade would realise this and think in the same way but they know nothing else and the fear of change is what they are listening to and there is no reason to be afraid.

        • Guilttripjunkie

          Europe should agree to take in one tenth of numbers admitted by KSA.

          • Snowmuncher

            The other problem is that these “refugees” only want to go to what they consider are the best countries in the EU. They want to calculatingly cherry pick in minute detail the best asylum benefits and conditions (Germany, Sweden) and then when they get their EU passports in 3 – 5 years, they often choose to go to London. This phenomenon has even been researched and confirmed by the left wing pro mass immigration think tank Migration Observatory “Half of the entire Dutch Somali community moved to the UK” – mainly London. That’s why we have 100,000 + Somalians here, many with non British EU passports.

            These “refugees” are not interested in going to Romania, Bulgaria, Poland, Latvia, Estonia, Greece, Czech Republic, Hungary – they look down their noses at such countries, only cherry picking the best, which means the burden has be taken up by the northern European countries, at least until they get their EU passports and then the burden and lack of social cohesion arrives in London.

          • Guilttripjunkie

            The ‘migrant’ problem at Calais shows how these would illegals are actively cherry picking soft touch UK.

          • Snowmuncher

            The 250,000 + Somalians in the UK, many who came from Netherlands after getting their EU passports, have major employment issues and social cohesion issues. Only 1 in 10 (!!!) is in full employment according to the Economist, which is generally a left wing rag with pretensions.

            http://www.economist.com/news/britain/21583710-somalis-fare-much-worse-other-immigrants-what-holds-them-back-road-long

            This has amongst other matters led them to take up increasingly more extreme forms of Islam, and we know what that leads to.

  • tolpuddle1

    Do the EU and HMG have a Plan B to do with the migration mega-crisis likely to hit us once the Spring Equinox is past ?

    Or even a Plan A ?

    If not, Europe is History (or, alternatively, Toast).

    • ungagged

      And if we do NOT vote leave, the UK will also be toast. I am 68 and will stop caring for this country if we remain in this madness. The people voted for madness so let them suffer the consequences. No point in universities or colleges. The immigrants will do their intended jobs for less. Benefits Britain will then contain nearly ALL of our own kids. No jobs, no social housing. That is the fear factor the other way round.

      • Todd Unctious

        Disgraceful.Uninformed bile.

        • http://rantingoldgit.blogspot.co.uk/ Arthur Sparknottle

          Not at all. he speaky the truth. You speaky with forked Tonto…

          • Todd Unctious

            Do explain why there ” is no point in universities or colleges”.

          • http://rantingoldgit.blogspot.co.uk/ Arthur Sparknottle

            LOL – you seem to have missed his principle point and picked on a side issue and invite me to engage in your nonsensical question. Ha ha ha – I’m not playing your game Unctious.

          • ungagged

            Certainly Todd. The prospect of jobs for kids at college or uni when they qualify is now bleaker than ever. This is admitted by politicians who have used this very point in a few of their speeches about education. Most will leave and become unemployed or in jobs that do not reflect their education. What about the ‘media studies’ brigade ? f Ready trained overseas eastern europeans will be coming here and willing to work for less, the same way their UNTRAINED people have flooded here for more money and benefits than they could earn back home.
            “There is none so blind as those who will not see” and if you think I have spouted bile you are more than blind you are incapable of a logical thought process. Look around you my friend, see what large scale immigration and unemployment has done to places like Birmingham, Boston etc and then tell me large scale and uncontrollable immigration has IMPROVED our country. Read how many university graduates are without a job or doing jobs below their expectations. Even look at the social housing, including those with red doors that have been given to immigrants ahead of our own kids because by definition immigrants can claim to be homeless so they go straight to the top of the list..
            If you think this is uninformed bile then this country has even LESS chance than I thought it had but I only have to live here for the next ten years or so. I suspect YOU will have to suffer it a lot longer, unless you become unemployed and join the 300,000 who get out every year that is.

        • mohdanga

          Really? How’s it working out in Germany, Sweden, Finland, Denmark, Holland, Austria, Switzerland, etc, all of which have experienced a tsunami of “enrichers”?

  • grumpyoldrockape

    ‘2.5 million Syrian refugees have already arrived, and almost as many again are expected. How can Turkey cope?’
    Didn’t David Cameron state that Turkey should be allowed to join the EU? Imagine if he had got his way and they were a member of Schengen.
    In all probability Turkey will eventually join the EU and if that is not enough a reason that the UK should vote Leave, I don’t know what is.

    • ungagged

      75 MILLION Turkish muslims and CaMoron wants them in the EU. the man is on a death wish. The problem I see is that the majority of voters in the UK have NEVER known an independent Britain trading with the whole world INCLUDING the common market, having our own laws, human rights policies etc. As far as they are concerned we have ALWAYS been ruled by Germany and the EU. These are the people who may fear leaving even in the knowledge that this country will be swamped with refugees as soon as the result is known and we will NOT be able to do a thing because of the result.

  • Fritz123

    Isnt it Turkeys war? Why should anybody care?

    • Sue Smith

      Because Turkey belongs to NATO.

      • Jeremy Poynton

        And because Turkey will ship as many migragees as it can out to us. And then when they join the EU, they can all join us. Yippeeeeee!!!!!!!!

        • Donafugata

          Alas, you are correct.

          We will have to suffer the migrant hordes either as illegals or once they have their EU passports.
          WTF are we giving into blackmail by the vile gatekeeper AND being invaded?

      • Fritz123

        No, this is not yet a reason. If a Turkish plane gets shot down over Syria, so what. And would it be an attack on Turkey to shoot back in self-defense?

        Aleppo and Damaskus are far more “European” than Turkey. Venice etc. If they want a Lepanto they can have it. And we would save the world economy as well. This is a case of Yes, yes, no, no, as the bible says. And the bible is right in that region of the world called “the holy land”.

        Turkey has no case. Syria is Syria and there is no ethnic cleansing or whatever. The Kurds are just stronger than the other side. The other side are rebels. But we are in Syria anyway. This is no case for NATO. IMHO.

    • Özlem Chem

      Wow!I thought helping people in need was what humans are supposed to do.Have you ever tried to put yourself in others’ shoes? Do you know what they are going through? Did they want to have a war? Are they to blame because of their greedy goverments even if they didn’t vote for them?! I recommend you to read their interviews. Not minding others’ sufferings is horrifying.

      • Fritz123

        Have you ever been in Syria?

      • Fritz123

        What is the difrerence between oppression and the wish for more freedom?

      • Fritz123

        Kitsch. Sorry, we want to save the world.

  • Sue Smith

    And the next immigration crisis will be sponsored by the bien pensant. Here they are wonderfully characterized:

    https://www.prageru.com/courses/political-science/progressives-guide-political-correctness

  • Jeremy Poynton

    Syria took in 2 million Iraqi refugees. No-one in the West raised an eyebrow.

    • boiledcabbage

      but they are the same people, same language and culture.

      • Jeremy Poynton

        Oh. That must be why they all get on so well, I guess…

  • JohnJ

    So now we hear from EU President Donald Tusk. “This process is indeed very fragile. Handle with care. What is broken cannot be mended,” I just love inanities. Thanks Donny. Do these people have sawdust for brains. Almost to a person, the smart people ( i.e. not beholden to secondary interests or clouded by ‘good intentions’) predicted the migrant disaster the moment the boats arrived. What was not obvious? What part of “hundreds of thousands of young Muslim men” was not understandable? What did the politicians and EU bureaucrats think would happen? Are they so cloistered in their upbringing that they think every one is really really nice?
    My dog has more brains – at least he barks at intruders.

    • Pioneer

      “Are they so cloistered in their upbringing that they think every one is really really nice?”

      Indoctrination rather than upbringing.They are convinced everybody shares their “universal” values – except populist oiks, who are for vilification. It is part of their “progressive” cult.

  • ungagged

    Those people who vote to remain in the corrupt and deceitful EUSSR will be responsible for the total demise of this once great country. As bad as it is at the moment, it will get a whole lot worse when a large proportion of these people get their EU passports. The remain voters should be put on a list so these NEW EU citizens can be directed to THEIR neighbourhoods and NOT mine.

    • OmnipotentWizard

      Is that the “…once great country” that is on track to become the World’s 4th largest economy.

      • ungagged

        No. It is the once great INDEPENDENT country that you are obviously too young to remember who made its OWN laws, some good some bad but OURS, We traded with who we liked and did NOT have a 60 BILLION annual trading deficit. We did NOT have the pleasure of paying 55 MILLION a day to trade with the same countries who are now in the EU either. We could also subsidise the steel industry and a company like Bombardier in NI through their difficult periods.
        We could have the best economy in the world but we would still CONTROL NOTHING and be a lap dog to Germany.
        Will Germany tell Mercedes, BMW, Bosch and Siemens plus loads of others that they cannot trade with us if we leave ? I doubt it do you ?
        You mention world’s 4th largest economy. if so why then do we need to accept orders from Germany and the unelected elite in Brussels or is it Salzberg this week ?

        • OmnipotentWizard

          “We could have the best economy in the world…” Now pay attention. We are already the 5th largest economy in the World and are due to overtaken Germany in a few years. This is happening while we are IN the EU – why would we jeopardise something that is working so well for us.

          “…why then do we need to accept orders from Germany and the unelected elite in Brussels…” Hardly. We are part of an agreed trading block and all such organisations have rules. Germany doesn’t dictate any more than we do. We are also a member of other groups that have rules we have to abide by: World Bank, IMF, etc.

  • scampy

    Can anyone name a civilized muslim country in the last 2000 years?

    • Snowmuncher

      Sweden?

      • Vinnie

        scampy said ‘civilized’

        • styants64

          Islam has not taken over and subjugated Sweden fully yet when they do we’ll see what their version of so-called civilisation amounts to.

    • Margot5000

      Jordan seems OK? The rest range from bad to disaster to horror stories on par with the time of Genghis Khan.
      BTW – anyone remember those articles the Spectator used to print from a Turkeyphile Norman Stone trying to persuade everyone Turkey’s entry to the EU would be a really, really, really good idea. DC had (has?) the same idea I think. Mmmmm.

    • Cyril Sneer

      Can anyone name a civilised muslim?

    • Cobbett

      Indonesia and Malaysia seem OK…lovely women too.

    • OmnipotentWizard

      You beat me to it Cobbett.

  • Liberanos

    The really super thing about us remaining in the EU is that when these hundreds of thousands of immigrants start to come here they can stay for ever and get some good jobs, housing and health benefits.

    • OmnipotentWizard

      ….and pay for our pensions.

  • Vinnie

    every day for the last 6 months we talk talk talk about this issue but nothing is really being done. When will it end?

    • OmnipotentWizard

      It will end when the war in Syria is over. My guess is about another 6 months as it already seems to be losing steam.

  • caubrey

    Turkey was the colonial power in Syria for centuries, they have a responsibility to that part of the world.

    • jaafar

      That is wrong the middle east as we know it is the making of France and UK , all current borders most the stability we se today have its roots to 1918 , when the west divided the middle east it make sure to create unstable countries and failed states that can only survive with its help , the west make sure that bower and wealth are concentrated in the hand of the corrupted minority , after the west came the soviets and also made things much worst so , every thing you see is the doing of France, UK, the US and Russia

      • caubrey

        You have listened to too much anti Western politically correct re writing of history, the inter ethnic ,religious and tribal hatreds were fermented by the Ottomans , of course no foreign rule is ideal but the British and French were really mopping up the mess caused by the disastrous, cruel, corrupt Turkish rule over the Middle East over the centuries.

        • jaafar

          No the UK and France carved the middle east in such way , for example current Syria, jordan Lebanon and Palestine were as single country called greater Syria , UK and France decided this country into 4 and establish a separate reforms for each , thus preventing a single country from controlling east Mediterranean, and make sure these new countries are on opposite sides politically

      • Guilttripjunkie

        Nothing to do with Muslims eh?

      • boiledcabbage

        Rubbish. Sykes Picot, which created Syria and Iraq, was the best option at the time.

  • dailytelaviv

    Turkey backs ISIS and Laura Pitel loves Turkey,

  • dailytelaviv

    sick of apologists for disgusting terror state Turkey

  • Grace Ironwood

    How come Laura sees ‘women from Homs clutching children’, yet Europe sees gangs of young male thugs from North Africa?
    Does she have “BBC vision” & therefore only sees women clutching babies out of her one eye?
    Or are they actually a different cohort of ‘migrants” ?

  • Thorsted

    I live in Denmark. In 1951 when the asylum convention was ratified both Denmark and Syria had 3.5 mio people. Today Syria has 23.mio and Danmark has 5.5 mio. More people has been born in Syria during the civil war than killed. The Demographics of the 3.rd world is the reel war moonger. These people have made their bed! Tyrkiet should send the back. The right to asylum was to a world of Working states. This is a world of failed states and anarchy. The UN, human rights and asylum conventions is an utopian fantasy with no basis in the Real world.

  • Harryagain

    And something to worry about nearer home.
    http://www.breitbart.com/london/2016/02/16/british-police-arrest-man-for-syrian-migrants-facebook-post-promise-zero-tolerance-on-offence-online/

    We’re getting nearer to the police state.
    Complaining is NOT allowed!

    • OmnipotentWizard

      “Complaining is NOT allowed!” Quite right – I’m not reading this post.

  • Cyril Sneer

    So… the Turks support terrorist groups in Syria with the intent of removing the secular Syrian government and giving the kurds a beating but instead they’ve inadvertently empowered the Kurds who are now taking large amounts of northern Syrian and now much of the Syrian/Turkish border is controlled by the Kurds.

    Way to go Erdogan. Islamists are as dumb as fudge.

    • Pioneer

      There are some FSA units supporting the Kurds in Syria now – as they did in Kobane.

      • Cyril Sneer

        Yep a number of rebel units have moved over to the other side.

  • KittyR

    Stating that “Syria is now the world’s biggest refugee generator” – as the journalist here has done – tells us something and nothing without unpacking the context. The issue is that most asylum seekers coming to Europe, 71% in fact, are not from Syria. Eurostat figures show that overall about 21% come from Syria, 6% from Iraq, 2% from Somalia, the rest are poor and corrupt countries, but not war stricken. Firstly, we cannot take every man, woman and child who would like to start a new life in Europe. Secondly, the EU’s slow and cumbersome response has meant that we’ve encouraged those who are just out to make a new life to join the bandwagon. The EU’s response has been farcical and made the situation worse for genuine refugees. The EU’s dictates will also ensure that there is no legal provision for any member state to ensure people return to their country of origin once war is over; the European Court of Justice will be declaring all sorts of rights to those who should leave when the time comes. I’m all for assisting those displaced by war, but this migrant crisis wouldn’t be as pressing were it not for the masses claiming asylum who are economic migrants. Imagine what it would be like if only 29%, less than a third of the current numbers, were arriving in Europe. It would be far easier to make provision for them. Overloading countries with people who, in the main, are out for all they can get means the poorest everywhere (yes, there are poor Europeans) suffer. Stats I used available on Eurostat’s site http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/documents/2995521/6996925/3-18092015-BP-EN.pdf/b0377f79-f06d-4263-aa5b-cc9b4f6a838f

    • OmnipotentWizard

      “.. we cannot take every man, woman and child who would like to start a new life in Europe.” And that is why we already have control of our borders and the IN/OUT EU debate will have no impact on this.

      • ungagged

        So your ‘control of borders’ you mention. It is a fact that ANY EU citizen can come into this country and we CANNOT stop them. I will put it in plain words for you, because we cannot stop them it is UNCONTROLLABLE. A simple word for a simple man. For a wizard you are not very clever are you ?
        If we vote to remain in this mad house I can certainly imagine what demands Merkel will make on Britain and we cannot refuse. Despite you being the only person on the planet who believes Merkel does NOT run the EU then I suggest you find out WHO invited the so called refugees into the EU countries and WHO is demanding that ALL of the other members take them in. Also WHO agreed to pay Turkey 3 BILLION of EU money, of which we have to pay 280 MILLION and has agreed to give the VISA travel within the EU and also support their entry into the EU as has CaMoron. That makes another 75 MILLION who could come to Britain. Unlikely I know but we still cannot CONTROL the numbers who want to come.
        Ask your teacher next time you go back to school.
        I too can be nasty.

        • OmnipotentWizard

          “Despite you being the only person on the planet who believes Merkel does NOT run the EU…” Saying things that are obviously incorrect will not help you win over the undecided voters. If you want the OUT lobby to succeed then you have to become a little more rational and less emotional.

          “…WHO invited the so called refugees into the EU countrie…” No one invited them. Several leaders said they could take some number. Stick to the facts if you want to win the vote.

          “….WHO is demanding that ALL of the other members take them in.” Various EU leaders have suggested a quota. Less emotion if you want to win the vote.

          Now see if you can calm down and stick to actual facts in future.

          • ungagged

            So you have this fantasy of believing it was ALL of the EU leaders who initially invited these migrants to come ? Do you remember Merkel saying “we can take them all” ? If that is true, please tell me WHO are the leaders who also said we “welcome you”.CaMoron was FORCED to take some but took 20,000 from the Jordan camps.
            The whole of the east european bloc have said they will NOT take any.
            NO leader said anything about taking any until Merkel opened her mouth. Do you ever read the press ?
            Do NOT use my arguments, my FACTS and use them yourself to defend your fantasies.
            I cannot respond to a fantasist who just does NOT believe what is going on around them. You are impossible to hold a reality conversation with.

          • OmnipotentWizard

            On 16th July Merkel said “Germany ‘just can’t manage’ to take every refugee”

            Wizard Rule 19: There are none so blind as those who quote evidence selectively.

      • KittyR

        While it’s true we aren’t in Schengen and have control of our borders to the extent that we check the passports and visas of those entering, because we are a member of the EU anyone claiming asylum in any other EU country has the right to eventually become an EU citizen and one day come to live and work in the UK if they wish. This makes us reliant on the border policy of other EU nations, like Italy, Greece etc. and all those in Schengen. The shambles regarding the rules the Dublin Agreement impose epitomises the problems inherent to shoe-horning different countries/cultures into one EU rule. Dublin was supposed to ensure asylum seekers were processed and stayed in the first EU country they arrived in but has been utterly ineffectual in doing so as migrants refuse to be registered in Italy/Greece or wherever because they want to make their way to more prosperous nations like Sweden and Germany. Further, the Mediterranean countries had little enthusiasm to register migrants who would end up their responsibility, and anyway Germany flung Dublin aside by inviting hundreds of thousands of Syrian refugees to Germany and therefore all other Schengen nations! It’s been ludicrous to watch and enforcing EU laws and regulations regarding not only migration, but in all sorts of other key areas of governance is simply not going to work without the EU having to increasingly enforce, overstep national sovereignty and, in my opinion, will become increasingly despotic for this whole Union to work.

        • OmnipotentWizard

          We aren’t part of Schengen. We are unlikely to be part of Schengen. Immigrants that eventually become EU citizens are unlikely to flock here.

          Remember all those Romanians & Bulgarians that Farage said would flood the country – they must have got lost on the road somewhere.

          My son works in Belgium – the EU allows him to do that. It allows UK industry to get the right people in enough numbers.

          • KittyR

            If you read my response it’s clear I know we’re not in Schengen so don’t quite understand why you feel the need to tell me we aren’t!!! The issue for me with the EU is that it’s undemocratic and trying to shoehorn such a variety of cultures into unifying laws isn’t going to work and the entire Schengen/Dublin Agreement shambles is one such illustration of the chaos trying to do so wreaks. I, too, have worked and studied in continental Europe, in Germany and Slovakia, I speak German and love being part of cultural Europe, but I don’t think this political and legal union is going to work. Your comment about Bulgarians and Romanians is inaccurate – numbers arriving have increased steadily since they joined in 2017, but have increased very sharply since 2013, here are Office of National Stats figures to prove it http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/rel/migration1/migration-statistics-quarterly-report/february-2015/sty-bulgarian-and-romanian-migration-to-the-uk.html. Anyway, my concerns about the EU are reach for wider than issues like immigration or the small-minded bigotry of someone who cares not a jot about European culture.

          • OmnipotentWizard

            “The issue for me with the EU is that it’s undemocrati…” We vote for MEPs and we vote for our Government who appoint a commissioner.

            “…trying to shoehorn such a variety of cultures into unifying law…” The areas of law are limited and generally cover things (like trade) that happens between nations. No attempt to unify culture.

            “I just don’t think this political and legal union is going to work.” And that is not what is currently on offer. The current offer gives us the best of both Worlds.

            “Anyway, my concerns about the EU reach far deeper than issues like immigration.” Not in the UK.

          • KittyR

            1. I’m well aware of the representation we have at the EU Parliament. Your statement that our government chooses a commissioner isn’t entirely true – the President-elect selects the 27 members of the Commission on the basis of suggestions (and what that means is open to debate) made by
            Member States. As stated earlier, any supranational institution governing 500+ million people from different countries each with a unique history, culture and language is going to struggle with representational democracy and it’s well established by many, even on the pro-European side, that there is a democratic deficit inherent in the EU. This level of jurisdiction by a supranational entity is unprecedented in western democracy – the nearest you’ll get in modern times is the USSR and that tells me all I need to know!
            2. Areas of law are certainly not just limited to “things (like trade) that happens between nations. ” Oh if only – are you still living in 1975? The powers of the European Court of Justice are based on two facets: direct effect and supremacy. Direct effect is the principle that EU law can confer rights on individuals which the courts of member states are bound to recognise and enforce. And supremacy means that member states have definitively transferred
            sovereign rights to the Community, and as such Union law cannot be overridden
            by domestic law. Hardly limited to trade.
            3. Well I think the same thing about getting out and won’t explain why as you haven’t about why you feel this about staying in.
            4. Thanks for speaking for the entirety of the nation. Ipsos-Mori will be glad to hear from you as you’ll save them a lot of time!

          • OmnipotentWizard

            “…the President-elect selects the 27 members of the Commission on the basis of suggestions…” How many have been rejected?

            “…culture and language is going to struggle with representational democracy…” Not our problem. As the EU only impinges on issues such as trade that would have to be sorted out anyway then no one is forcing their culture on us.

            “…and it’s well established by many, even on the pro-European side, that there is a democratic deficit inherent in the EU.” Just because you say something that doesn’t make it true.

            ” This level of jurisdiction by a supranational entity is unprecedented in western democracy…” Hardly. It is limited to certain areas and there is no imposition. The best the EU can do is to ask the national Government to look again at something because it doesn’t match what we’ve already agreed to.

            “…the European Court of Justice are based on two facets: direct effect and supremacy.” Incorrect. Point covered above.

            “..sovereign rights to the Community, and as such Union law cannot be overridden..” Incorrect and the new deal on offer makes that very clear.#

            “…explain why as you haven’t about why you feel this about staying in…” We’ve have the wealthiest, healthiest and safest generation ever. Why risk it? Better the devil you know.

            Bear in mind that the OUTter shout a lot and are over represented in the polls. When the public get inside the polling booth they will vote with their head rather than there heart. Unless the OUTters have 60% in the polls going into the vote then they will lose.

  • Margot5000

    If many migrants are here with passports from other European countries although originally from Somalia etc then one of the main advantages of Brexit must be their immediately becoming aliens. Can’t for TLOM see what DC is trying to do wandering around Europe. Most people will vote on one issue and it sure ain’t the economy. Once we’re out then birth control promotion in Bradford, Luton might be a good idea.

    • Guilttripjunkie

      Limiting welfare to the first child only, would help reduce the incentive to have ‘traditional’ sized families within certain immigrant communities.

      • Patricia

        Nice idea but the “human rights” fallout would be horrendous.

        • Margot5000

          If it applied to everyone can’t see the problem.

      • boiledcabbage

        Limiting wives to one – and actually enforcing that – would stop the import of 2nd 3rd 4th wives from S Asia, and reduce the massive growth of ‘them’.

    • OmnipotentWizard

      Don’t confuse people on here with the general public. The economy is the key issue. People are not turned on by esoteric issues of sovereignty or an exaggerated immigration crisis.

      • Margot5000

        I think you’ll find that a lot of them are actually.

        • OmnipotentWizard

          Only on discussion websites.

          If these people were typical then we’d have a UKIP Government and an Independent Scotland. The McCann’s would have been executed. All Muslim would have been deported.

          No – the real people have too much of a comfortable life to want to step into the unknown of voting OUT. In the voting booth people will vote with their head and not their heart.

  • Itinerant

    “The great migration may be just beginning.”
    If the EU has its way it wants anything between 50 and 200 million more immigrants to ‘solve’ the pension problem.That’s their preferred big lie for ‘replacement migration’ anyway.
    Meanwhile the US has legitimised Erdogan’s campaign against the Kurds, sorry PKK terrorists and one can see Erdogan engineering a situation- where all the Kurds are shepherded towards Europe- it’s not like Turkey doesn’t have previous.

    • Guilttripjunkie

      The problem is most of the 50 to 200 million will never be net tax contributers and will only exaberate the EUs financial problems caused by an ageing European population.

      • Itinerant

        Of course and they know that, the ‘talent’ and ‘economic boon’ lies are just the ‘big lies’ for the plebs. The EU above most is a wealth redistribution programme, just not for anyone in the EU, riding the gravy train or one of the beneficiaries of the EU’s quite massive web of influences and subsidies.

        The EuroMed project is one massive wealth redistribution programme and Europeans are being conned and bullied into paying for their own demographic and cultural demise.
        It was not hyperbole for Fjordman to remark, that not only was the EU the main driver of Islamification in Europe but that it was the greatest organised betrayal in Western history.

    • Patricia

      “…EU has its way it wants anything between 50 and 200 million more immigrants to ‘solve’ the pension problem.That’s their preferred big lie for ‘replacement migration’ anyway.”

      Who will pay the pensions of immigrants in years to come – import even more ? A curse on the EU.

      • Itinerant

        Exactly it’s a pyramid scheme- even the original 2000 UN documents on ‘replacement migration’ included the caveats that ‘replacement migration’ was unworkable unless all workers left before they left pensionable age, nevermind the adverse social and political fall-out of the quite unprecedented and enormous numbers of migrants needed.

      • Cobbett

        And what jobs are they going to do? Toilet attendants are not exactly well paid.

  • trobrianders

    Germany’s establishment believed they could control Nazis. Brussels’ establishment believe they can control Muslims.

  • Cobbett

    Anyone from one of the former countries that comprised the Ottoman Empire can hop on plane to Istanbul easily enough…which is what a lot of them are doing(Moroccans and Tunisians are not ‘refugees’)

  • Jacobi

    I have argued strongly for continuing UK membership of the EU and in principle still do. There is one situation in which, being a versatile sort of person, I will switch.

    If the EU in any way continues with its intent, pretended or otherwise, of eventually letting 79 million Muslims in to the EU or in any way allowing visa concessions in the meantime, then I vote to get out !

    Turkey is now seen by anyone, along with Saudi-Arabia to be the enemy. In such circumstances, the EU would be the enemy.

    We will be back 77 years.

  • tom kincade

    It seems to me that these refugees feel they have an inherent right to go where they please in Europe they appear to me a most ungracious bunch they want to pick and choose where to go and they appear to be a whinginy lot after all they started the insurrection against their government although it is not much of a government so it is a self inflicted problem why don’t they go to their Arab brothers the Saudis and gulf states and places like malaysia Indonesia Pakistan these are Muslim countries surely they would be much more at home there rather than with us infidels in the weet

  • RAYMOND NATERLIN

    One writer was correct in stating that most of the so called “refugees” are really economic migrants looking for a welfare state so they can make more children and live well off the nations good intentions. To be realistic what you can see coming from all this is trouble and more trouble even after they settle under false pretenses. Mark my words. Muslim immigrants will be in the news again and again with continuing conflict no matter where they go. The human being is getting stupid in the modern age.

  • RAYMOND NATERLIN

    Germany must fear the aging population and a need for more tax payers to support the government spending in the future. Such a sensible and productive people should think twice about who they let in to participate in their economy and social state. If they are trouble where they come from ? so will they be trouble where they go. Turkey is their neighbor. Even most muslim cannot get along with each other.

Close
Can't find your Web ID? Click here