Rod Liddle

Why are children in Guernsey extolling Islam to their parents?

A school exercise has the parents up in arms

27 February 2016

9:00 AM

27 February 2016

9:00 AM

I have never been to the island of Guernsey. This is a large world and we have a finite amount of time on it and must make our decisions about where we visit based on necessarily limited information. We cannot know everything. I have never been to Japan, for example, because I do not wish to be crushed to death by a mass of jabbering humanity, nor take part in unpleasant sadomasochistic sex acts, nor watch people disembowelling themselves in order to affirm their masculinity. I realise that this is not all that Japan has to offer. There is also sushi, for example, and buttock-clenched politeness. I could get both of those things in Harrogate. So that’s Japan off my itinerary.

As far as Guernsey is concerned I have no interest in visiting somewhere which is not quite France and I am also suspicious of their bland and vapid cows. If I wished to look at cows I would rather that they were palpably decent Friesians, or perhaps those shaggy dark-brown lowering creatures the Scots find so alluring.

And yet a recent news story has made me wish to visit Guernsey immediately, because of what the schools there are getting up to. The parents are not happy about it. There is discord. I like visiting places where there is discord. Not too much discord, obviously. Not weaponised discord.

[Alt-Text]


A school in Guernsey got the pupils to write an essay explaining to their parents that they had converted to the exciting, go-ahead religion of Islam and that as a consequence their life was much better. Excellent idea. I don’t know how long this essay had to be, but let me make a quick stab at it:

Dear Mum and Dad. At the behest of my school I have converted to the Religion of Peace, Islam. Life henceforth will be much better for all of us. I have already circumcised my sister with those secateurs Dad left in the garage. I have also decapitated our neighbour, Mr Goldberg, with a scimitar I bought with my pocket money. In future I would prefer it if Mum wore a hijab and was prevented from leaving the house unaccompanied. I am also saving up to go to a place called Raqqa, which I understand is lovely at this time of year. Oh — and our dog, Tyson. I caught him mounting the late Mr Goldberg’s poodle, which as you know is a male dog. So I pushed him off the roof. You may wish to clear up the mess before you mow the lawn again. Yours, insh-allah, Kevin (Now Mohammed al-St Peter’s Port).

I think that covers the bases, more or less. Of course I am well aware that there is more to Islam than this and that not every Muslim in the world believes in female genital mutilation or wishes to decapitate Mr Goldberg. Perhaps the students — aged 12 and 13, by the way — could adumbrate the more nuanced way in which rank anti-Semitism and female subjugation and homophobia is represented by the modern version of Islam and also explain the official view of us unbelievers, the kafirs. ‘Cattle’ is how I have heard it described — probably those bland Guernsey cattle, chewing the cud obliviously, waiting blindly for annihilation, a lesser species fit for slaughter.

I am also aware that it is a sort of non-sequitur to suggest that if in any Islamic country children were told to write an essay explaining why they had converted to Christianity and how absolutely bloody marvellous it was, all that uplifting Jesus stuff, the teachers would all be — at the very best — in jail before the muezzin’s evening wail. Why should we judge ourselves by their standards, etc? Good point, of course. We should not do so. But nor should we cringe and in the process lose our critical faculties. Why were the children enjoined to describe, exclusively, how converting to Islam would have been beneficial for their lives? Why were they not told to make up their own minds about the matter? Were they taught any of the, um, possible downsides of Islam? I bet they were not. But I bet they have been truly inculcated in the downsides of Christian belief.

So that’s Guernsey. Meanwhile, in another country I have never visited, one of the few in Europe, a man who compared the ideology of Islam to the ideology of the Nazis was arrested and prosecuted. In Denmark you can say whatever you like about the Jews, providing you are a Muslim. You can describe them as being lower than pigs and no legal action will be forthcoming. That is just one reason why Jewish people are getting the hell out of Europe at a faster rate than at any time since about 1936. But state your honestly held opinion about political Islam — not about Muslims, i.e. not about actual people, just about an ideology — and you will find yourself hauled before the courts. And convicted. And fined. This is what the defendant said: ‘The ideology of Islam is as loathsome, disgusting, oppressive and misanthropic as Nazism. The massive immigration of Islamists into Denmark is the most devastating thing to happen to Danish society in recent history.’

OK, I think he has overstated the case — but only slightly. And that last point seems to have struck a chord with the Danish government — which is no longer quite so welcoming to the massive influx of immigrants from North Africa and the Middle East as it once was. And yet as part of that Europe-wide cringe in the face of an ideology which is, itself, disinclined to cringing, the Danes prosecute someone for exercising their right to freedom of speech.

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Show comments
  • davidshort10

    Must remember never to go to Denmark or buy anything Danish, including bacon.

  • Rik

    OK lets see how free speech works here,in my opinion Islam is not a religion,it is a vile supremacist death cult,eternally rooted in barbarity,founded by “the perfect man” Big Mo the paedophile warlord.If published today the Koran and the Hadiths would immediately be banned as hate speech.

    • otso bjartalid

      Extremists have understood islam in a way that urges to be a barbarian. However, many islamic families live normally, like believers in many other eligions, live.

      • polidorisghost

        “However, many islamic families live normally, like believers in many other eligions, live.”

        Yup, you can read all about them in today’s Times.

        • otso bjartalid

          Answer to everyone who commented my latest post:
          Yes, i really don’t deny that fact that in the world is nowadays a lot of islamic terrorism. Koran maybe been understood in a weird way, and i don’t know, like every other person in the world, what Mohammed wanted, so lets end this conversation that i started.

      • Damaris Tighe

        Even a few months ago you would have found me here arguing that most Muslims are ordinary people trying to get on with their lives. That is of course true. But I’ve come to see that it’s also not relevant. What is relevant is the minority, who in absolute terms number many millions worldwide, who are our sworn enemy. They are the movers and shakers, because they’re fired up with religious zeal. Forget those who live normally. If push comes to shove, which side will many (most?) of the normal, quiet ones choose?

        • Hybird

          Yes, when push comes to shove, things tend to change. I read about Turkish Cypriots who had lived side by side with their Greek neighbours for generations in a village in Northern Cyprus. The Greeks even thought they were friends. Then, when the Turkish Army invaded and occupied the area, the Turkish villagers took turns in raping the village priest’s daughter in front of him. Fully justified by Islam, of course.

          http://hellenicantidote.blogspot.co.uk/2009/01/those-who-want-to-rape-daughters-of.html

        • JabbaPapa

          In my experience, even “moderate” Muslims are routinely taught to despise both traditional and contemporary Western values and to hate Christianity — but then perhaps that’s exactly what these Guernsey schoolchildren are being taught as well ?

          • sarahsmith232

            Spot on i’d say. An Asian got on the number 25 outside that East London mosque (you know, the Underpants Bomber Mosque). For whatever reason the leaflet he’d been handed was written in English and I had a birds eye view. Jeez, you wouldn’t believe it, words along the lines – ‘reasons why democracy is unislamic, and why no decent muslim should ever participate, is western imperialism and must not ever be submitted to’ etc. I’m def’ with the – doesn’t matter that they’re not all running off to join Islamic State, even the ‘moderate’ ones are hostile.

      • Hybird

        How they choose to live their lives is immaterial. As Bill Clinton might have said -” It’s the ideology, stupid!” The fact that millions of Muslims do not go around lopping peoples’ hands and feet off or crucifying them does not alter the fact that their religion justifies it if they do.
        What bothers me is that nobody ever asks these “normal” Muslims about the appalling things their ideology sanctions and the appalling things their role model “prophet” got up to. And what really bothers me is that one of the followers of this appalling “prophet” looks likely to become Mayor of London.

        • Ahobz

          The reason such questions are not aske is the inevitable immediate allegation of islamophobia, designe to shut down such questions without the addressee of the question having to grapple with the difficult issues.

          • Hybird

            No, I don’t think that’s it. In my opinion it is fear of being killed. Anyone who is prepared to tell the truth or ask awkward questions will become a target for murder – and we have nobody is prepared to live like Geert Wilders at the moment. Wilders is the only one who is prepared to take the risk. Brave man.

        • Germainecousin

          Yes and unfortunately even if one of them was to give an account they would most likely given the reaction they think you would like to hear. I listened to a debate on Irish Rte radio a few years back about gay relationships. There was a trendy priest, who nevertheless got a verbal bashing from the audience and a muslim who gave the impression that not only were gays tolerated in islam, they were actually welcomed. No one challenged what was clearly a complete fabrication.

          • Hybird

            I know what you mean. It’s amazing that time after time they appear on TV or radio and tell the most blatant lies without being challenged. Mehdi Hasan is a case in point. He goes on QT and gets clean away with it every time. Even David Starkey and UKIP MEPs have let him get away with lying through his teeth about what the Koran says. It’s actually up to the likes of UKIP to tell the truth and ask the relevant questions. It would cause uproar of course – but the votes would roll in and the deception would be at an end.
            Wilders tops the polls (by far) in Holland by doing just that. UKIP could do the same – if they only would summon up the courage.

          • Reagan40

            Don’t forget British muslims are much more violent than their European cousins. And British muslims will kill rather than face the ugly truth of Islam. Truth to them is like sunshine to a vampire. Remember the ban Donald Trump Muslim campaign? Do you still think UKIP will go that far with Islam in the UK?

        • Sanctimony

          Nah… the Hebrews will rally to Zac G….

      • ProfessorPistov

        Even if no m* slim was a terrorist, even if they were all as
        peaceful as anything and nice as pie, the false piety, holier than thou
        attitude and denial of the truth of their so called religion would make me a ‘phobe.

  • Damaris Tighe

    A funny article which gave me a good belly laugh to start the day. But it also makes some very serious points. Why is it that the elites & those classes employed by the state (teachers, LA officials – remember Rotherham) are cringing before a religious ideology & its representatives who stand for everything they say they oppose? This teacher could have taught Islam without taking the deeply creepy step of getting her pupils to imagine the ‘benefits’ of conversion.

    And, forget about imagining an Islamic country asking its pupils to do the same re Christianity – why didn’t this Guernsey school also ask children to write a letter about their ‘conversion’ to Christianity? After all, Christianity is as foreign to most British children nowadays as Islam.

    The only answer I can think of is subconscious fear. The sort of fear that makes you try to befriend your enemy. The sort of fear you have when you’re mired in relativism & have no absolute values to provide a moral & cultural backbone. In other words, the appropriately named Stockholm Syndrome.

    • ItwasBlairwotdunnit

      Or, if I might suggest an alternative label, “the Chamberlain Syndrome”. Religion of Peace, in our time.

    • polidorisghost

      “The sort of fear that makes you try to befriend your enemy.”

      Odd really.
      I’d learnt the futility of doing that by the age of five, and all without the help of a teacher.

      • Damaris Tighe

        Yup, classic bullying syndrome! The more you try to appease the bully by pretending to be his friend, the more you get bullied. They can smell the fear.

      • Damaris Tighe

        PS: Isn’t it quiet here? Normally a post by Rod on this subject would have attracted around 80 comments before 9.00am.

        • polidorisghost

          Spooky
          What don’t we know?

    • Richard Baranov

      “…why didn’t this Guernsey school also ask children to write a letter about their ‘conversion’ to Christianity?” I think you are missing the obvious answer to that question, Damaris. The teachers know more about Islam than they do about Christianity of which, I have no doubt they are profoundly ignorant. They would, therefore, be quite incapable of grading or judging a paper on the subject. A favourite question I put to Christians is to explain the trinity to me. I doubt that 1 in 100 can give me a coherent answer and this, the central conception of God in Christianity.

      • JabbaPapa

        A favourite question I put to Christians is to explain the trinity to me. I doubt that 1 in 100 can give me a coherent answer and this, the central conception of God in Christianity.

        I think that’s mostly true, though I disagree with your contention that it’s “the central conception of God”, but it is one of the most complex doctrines of the Religion.

        Many might be able to give you a “coherent” answer, but an “accurate” one would require not only a certain degree of rhetorical competence, but also a willingness of the person asking to listen to a complex explanation of doctrine. The number of Christians who truly understand the theology is going to be very small anyway, because the vast majority of the population, Christian or otherwise, has no real interest in such intellectualism in the first place.

        Those capable of explaining Trinitarian theology are likely to be vastly outnumbered by those incapable of comprehending it.

        So really, I think your questioning of random Christians is at least a teensy bit dishonest — I mean would you expect the average atheist to be capable of giving a coherent explanation of the central conceptions in materialist metaphysics ?

        • Flintshire Ian

          “A favourite question I put to Christians is to explain the trinity to me. I doubt that 1 in 100 can give me a coherent answer and this, the central conception of God in Christianity.”
          Didn’t all three of them catch the last train to the coast, the day the music died?

          • Sid Falco

            Most Catholics I’ve asked have completely the wrong idea about what the “immaculate conception” actually refers to.

          • JabbaPapa

            Basic Catechesis stayed in an absolutely dismal state for close to 50 years, and even though things are starting to improve somewhat, it is still perfectly possible for a cradle Catholic to receive an extremely poor religious education if the parents are not careful, particularly in the US and in other countries where the lefty liberal faction in the Church is dominant.

          • greencoat

            Most Catholics I’ve asked get it exactly right every time.

          • Sid Falco

            sure, a big fat zero.

          • Sanctimony

            Yes, according to Don Maclean who should be the next candidate for the Popecy (pace George Dubya)….

        • Largely Fortescue

          Why would anyone “expect the average atheist to be capable of giving a coherent
          explanation of the central conceptions in materialist metaphysics ? Or
          even just of the central conceptions of the scientific methodology ?”
          ‘Atheist’ describes someone who is not convinced of the existence of a god or gods. It says nothing about their knowledge or otherwise of anything else whatsoever.

          • JabbaPapa

            Ignorance is Strength, eh ?

          • #toryscum

            I disagree slightly with your summary of atheism.
            An agnostic is someone who is not convinced on the existence of god.
            An atheist is convinced that god does not exist.
            a small, but important, distinction

          • Richard Baranov

            Not necessarily, Atheists are often people who simply can’t believe in God period. It is not part of their psyche, for want of another way of putting it. That is not a problem of conviction.

          • #toryscum

            hi,
            I don’t think I communicated my point as well as I could have done. Atheism isn’t just a lack of belief, it’s the opposite. They’re not saying ‘i’m not sure, they may be a god’, but ‘i’m sure there is no god’. Maybe i’m being hopelessly naive, but someone should not take so sure a position until they have consumed all knowledge available to them, in order to make an informed decision of their own. Therefore, in response to the LS comment above- Yes, I would expect an atheist to have at least a fundamental understanding of theology.

          • JabbaPapa

            Personally anyway, I have no problem whatsoever with atheists like yourself who actually know what they’re talking about.

            God exists, regardless — but in the absence of any Divine intervention(s) into your life experience that you would recognise as such, you’re stranded with the requirement to decide for yourself what it will be that you believe. (He’s not a six-sided circle anyway, LOL)

          • Richard Baranov

            I am not an atheist. so back to the drawing board for you. The reality is your either or choice is far from being the only one. The reason you think that people must be either theists or atheists, or, lets chuck in agnostics for good measure, is because of your limited knowledge of choices.

          • JabbaPapa

            I am not an atheist

            Apologies — but you will admit that a statement such as “there are people like me who regard the assertion that God exists as having as much meaning as the statement that, six sided circles exist, it is a meaningless thing to say and to assert its opposite is, therefore, also pointless” will tend to provide such an impression in people.

            you think that people must be either theists or atheists

            In fact, I argue against that suggestion very frequently, so it’s hardly what I “think” — whereas your own claim that : “All Atheism is the point of view that God does not exist” quite clearly leads one to believe that you were a proponent of that false binary position on this metaphysical question. Nevertheless, your previous statement of 10 days ago, “I do not believe in God” in combination with such a position does tend to rather strongly suggest atheism on your part.

            What on Earth is one to think in the midst of such bewildering self-contradiction ?

          • JabbaPapa

            Avoiding my questions is, I suppose, an answer.

          • Largely Fortescue

            Theist: believer in the existence of a god or gods.
            Atheist: not a believer in the existence of a god or gods.
            Cavil over the interpretation as you may, it still says nothing about the person’s other knowledge or beliefs.

          • JabbaPapa

            An atheist believes that God does not exist — Agnostics do not have that belief.

          • Largely Fortescue

            An atheist believes there is insufficient evidence of the existence of a god. Therefore, atheists would change their mind if proper evidence was produced.

          • JabbaPapa

            Right, that “explains” why atheists habitually deny God’s existence, accuse religious people of being stupid or irrational, and so on and so forth as a matter of course.

            Really though, you’re just trying to substitute some mind game for the truth.

            Assuming that you are yourself an atheist, which seems likely, if you were to answer the question “Do you believe that God doesn’t exist ?”, any answer except for “yes” would clearly be either a deflection or a deception or a digression.

            Atheists seem, typically, to have some kind of strange emotional relationship with the words “believe” and “belief”, as if beliefs were something that they could and wish to shun — whereas beliefs are the very basics of every imaginable rational structure, wherein they define what we accept as being true, or false, or questionable, or any other particular degree of veracity.

            Atheist pretensions that they have no belief in the non-existence of God are, frankly, unbelievable, particularly when one can witness them denying God’s existence with one’s own eyes. Such pretensions seem more like some form of cognitive dissonance than anything else.

            There is a radical difference between agnosticism and atheism, that only very few people who have never been agnostics themselves, in my experience, properly understand.

            That difference is that the atheist has decided to believe in God’s non-existence — whereas it is the agnostic who lacks both belief and disbelief in God.

            And positive disbelief in something is, from the cognitive point of view, a belief — see here BTW for a competent quick definition of “belief system” http://www.businessdictionary.com/definition/cognitive-belief-system.html

          • Largely Fortescue

            Thank you for informing me what I, as an atheist, believe in. Most enlightening.
            It is generally difficult to prove a negative but, tell you what, describe how you prove your god exists, then I can use your method to prove it doesn’t.

          • JabbaPapa

            Thank you for informing me what I, as an atheist, believe in

            Actually, I asked you a question.

            You failed to answer it.

            Do you believe that God doesn’t exist ?

            describe how you prove your god exists

            Please can you show me where I have posted any claim that I can do so.

        • Richard Baranov

          Not dishonest at all. Try asking an Orthodox Christian, you will get an answer because they automatically think in Trinitarian Terms. That we can’t provide a coherent answer is because of poor education in Christian doctrine, nothing else. I would, actually blame it on the Western Christian interpretation of the Trinity which has caused confusion and a fragmentation of Trinitarian understanding. It is something the Orthodox know to well and it is why the oppose the Western interpretation of the Trinity, it has lead to disaster. Whilst Christianity wanes in the West, in Orthodoxy it is still going strong. I would suggest because they have it right. See, Filioque Controversy.

          • JabbaPapa

            Your bias towards the Greek interpretation is understandable, given your circumstances, and I couldn’t hold it against you anyway, because as I pointed out elsewhere, the Catholic and Orthodox teachings about the Trinity “are functionally identical, regardless of the fact that the Eastern Orthodox and the Catholics emphasise the various parts of the doctrine in different ways“.

            Possibly, anyway, you didn’t consider my “teensy bit” phrase properly — it was intended quite literally, and not slapped on as a fig leaf for an attack.

            I once needed to do a re-translation of the original 7th Century Church document that established the theological justification of the Filioque, written in somewhat dialectal Late Latin, as a reaction to the fact that the usual English translation one can find of it is atrociously poor and rather extensively inaccurate — and my impression from the difficulty of that translation work is that it’s very likely that the Greeks did not correctly understand the Latin, so that instead of your contention that the Greeks had everything right and it’s the Latins who had comprehension difficulties, I’d suggest that it’s more realistic to accept that the communication and comprehension difficulties were (and are) mutual.

            Particularly given the fact that the Latin and the Greek texts of the Credo were published simultaneously, so that neither is a translation of the other, and neither can be described as “wrong”, even though the core verb at the heart of the Filioque disagreement has a non-identical meaning in the two versions.

            The 7th Century doctrine explains with clarity, when one has avoided the pitfalls of trying to read it as Classical Latin, that in some cases the Father, Son, and Spirit must be viewed as One, and the same ; but in other cases, the Father and the Son and the Spirit must be considered as Three, apart, and different to each other.

            It is clear, including on the basis of Pope Benedict XVI’s own clarifications, that the Latin text of the Credo considers the Father and the Son as the One God in the sending forth of the Spirit, whereas the Greek text considers them as different Persons for this Action, so that only the Father as Father provides the Spirit to his People. The 7th Century doctrine BTW is very clear, in agreement with the Orthodox doctrines, that the Father is the Father of both the Son and the Spirit in His Nature as Father.

          • Richard Baranov

            I would refer you to John Meyendorff: “Byzantine Theology”. Chapter 7. ‘The Schism between East and West’. The idea that the Trinitarian concepts held by the East and the West are “functionally identical” is demonstrably not so. It is quite obvious that there has been a fragmentation of the Trinitarian concept of God in the West and quite obvious that has not and did not occur in the Eastern Church. I would also refer you to greatest of the Orthodox theologians during the attacks of Latinism against the Orthodox Church, Gregory Palamas, who spent much of his time fending off the attacks of Roman Catholic influences on Orthodoxy.

            Your remark: “…and my impression from the difficulty of that translation work is that it’s very likely that the Greeks did not correctly understand the Latin…” Is somewhat ironic since, as Meyendorff points out, the Latin’s did not understand the original Greek in the first place! Making a translation into English from mangled Latin is therefore of no help at all!

          • JabbaPapa

            demonstrably not so

            Go ahead then. Demonstrate.

            a fragmentation of the Trinitarian concept of God in the West

            What “fragmentation” is this supposed to be ?

            the attacks of Latinism against the Orthodox Church

            The Western Church did everything possible to avoid the schism that the Eastern Bishops and Patriarchs insisted upon. The Eastern Churches accuse the Catholics of “heresy”, whereas the Catholics make no such counter-accusation. Your notion that “Latinism” “attacked” the Orthodox Church seems dubious.

            somewhat ironic

            Deliberately so.

            the Latins did not understand the original Greek in the first place

            That seems incompatible with the fact that the earliest Councils of the Church, local or Ecumenical, were indiscriminately either held in the Greek language or the Latin, and with the fact that it took about a thousand years for the schism to occur.

            Sorry, but it sounds your taking one particular position of the Orthodox against the Catholics, rather than being properly objective.

            You are quite clearly assuming that the Latin position must be wrong.

            mangled Latin

            Have you ever studied Late Latin ? Doesn’t sound like it.

          • Richard Baranov

            Excuse me but I am not a Christian or, as I point out, an atheist so, I do not, as they say, ‘have a dog in this fight’. I have taken pains to read both sides and come to the conclusion that the Orthodox are right and the West wrong. I have already given you two references that discuss the issues in question but it is quite clear that you are the usual rabid Roman Catholic not interested in fact or honest inquiry but upholding the wrong doctrines of your Church. As for fragmentation, you are rather overlooking the consequences of Trinitarian fragmentation all around you in the never ending interpretations of which god is which, embodied in Protestantism in which the disintegration of Christianity continues apace. And as Kallistos Ware rightly points out, Roman Catholicism and Protestantism are flip sides of the same coin.
            Again, I refer you to Meyendorff, in the context of his explanation it is neither here nor there if I speak Latin, Greek, or Swahili! Since he goes into great detail about just what the error is.

          • JabbaPapa

            I do not, as they say, ‘have a dog in this fight’

            You give every impression of the contrary.

            it is quite clear that you are the usual rabid Roman Catholic not interested in fact or honest inquiry

            I see — so you imagine that this sort of insult is a demonstration of your lack of a canine ?

            And that “the wrong doctrines of your Church” is a demonstration of your “neutrality” ?

            If I’m not “interested in inquiry”, do you have some alternative explanation why I asked you to “demonstrate” your suggestion ?

            the consequences of Trinitarian fragmentation all around you in the never ending interpretations of which god is which, embodied in Protestantism

            I was unaware that Catholic doctrine is demonstrated by Protestantism. What an interesting notion.

            as Kallistos Ware rightly points out, Roman Catholicism and Protestantism are flip sides of the same coin

            It is, in fact, a quite clearly incorrect suggestion.

            All that you have demonstrated in this last post is how deep your pro-Greek & anti-Latin bias actually is.

        • Landphil

          The Trinity – simple, but try to explain the offside rule.

      • Damaris Tighe

        Yes, you’re absolutely right. The problem with Christianity is that it carries the weight of Greek metaphysics which we no longer understand – the Orthodox are probably better at it for obvious reasons. ‘Persons’ coming from ‘persona’ & ‘proserpon’ for example. We think ‘person’ means an ‘individual character’. The Orthodox have a more ancient understanding which, to be honest, my 20th century mind finds difficult.

        Islam by contrast is gloriously simple. An imam once said (cheekily I thought) to Pope John Paul II, ‘ah but you have nothing to compare with our glorious monotheism’. I think Islam’s absolutist simplicity is part of its attraction. And as you say, makes it easy for religiously illiterate teachers to explain.

        I was recently in a religious studies classroom. The wall posters were interesting. Professionally produced from Islamic & Buddhist organisations. The ones about Christianity were hand made by the teacher & grossly inaccurate (it seems nothing professionally produced by the Protestant or the RC Churches which tells us something in itself). The teacher was clearly unfit to teach comparative religion, or at least, to teach Christianity.

        However, in my experience Roman Catholics are more willing to grapple with philosophical/theological concepts. I’ve always been impressed with the ‘doctrinal intelligence’ of practising Catholics. Their minds are still able to cope with abstractions (well, they were 20 years ago).

        • shadsfan

          The thinking man fails to be impressed by ANY religion, unless of course he (or she) also believes in fairies.

          • Damaris Tighe

            The thinking man doesn’t talk about fairies but with arguments.

          • Richard Baranov

            Evidently then, you don’t think!

          • shadsfan

            Well, not much of nasty and uncalled for snyde remarks at any rate. But you’re clearly not that bright. If you read my comment I was not referring to me but to a plethora of people. Pay attention.

          • hobspawn

             “The thinking man fails to be impressed by ANY religion, unless of course he (or she) also believes in fairies.”

            https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+5-7&version=KJV
             

        • dwarfpoo

          I went to a Catholic Girls school our RE “O” level class was to be taken in a year to leave time for other subjects on a two year course. We were actively encouraged to question the extracts of certain gospels by our Priest who made clear stories should be viewed as fables and were written at a time to guide uneducated people. My son attends a “secular” school, last year his project was to pretend to be a muslim going to Hajj and explain to his non muslim friends how he felt. He wrote I am a lone female so I couldn’t go..the end.

          • Damaris Tighe

            Well done him! I once attended a meeting for Catholics to introduce the new Catechism – an enormous & thoughtful tome. It was my first encounter with Catholics & I was amazed by the sophistication & abstract reasoning of these ordinary parishioners. And they were actually reading this 600 + page book. Very impressive.

        • Richard Baranov

          “The Orthodox have a more ancient understanding which, to be honest, my 20th century mind finds difficult.” I have no difficulty in understanding it at all. But then I suspect it is because I don’t, as you know, believe there is a person, in the modern sense, or a soul, self or some such at all.

          I thoroughly agree with you about the neglectful way that Christian churches behave with regards to education. Its an utter disgrace and then they complain about how people are taking flight from Christianity. An example, an encounter I had with a White Friar. He was reading Dionysius the Areopagite. I remarked that most laymen knew nothing of “Negative Theology”. His reply was simply: “They are not fit to know.” So much for education! Although I would think it is a very useful thing to teach people sceptical about ‘Positive Theology’ and who abandon ship because of it.

          • Damaris Tighe

            Perhaps in a quiet corner you could explain it to me Richard. Perhaps I’ve chosen the wrong reading on the subject – Vladimir Lossky. He witters on about the communion between the persons of the trinity, & loses me. But as I said, maybe that’s because I have too much of a 20th century mind.

            I used to be interested in negative v positive theology. One author outside mainstream Christianity (but still Christian) who wrote on this is Charles Williams (one of the Inklings) in his book on Dante’s Beatrice. Your White Friar is an example of the hubris of individualistic mysticism, bordering on narcissism, without humility & compassion – a trap which Buddhist monks seem to avoid by begging for their food from the people, & accepting ‘temporary monks’. Without this connection the danger is that the only person you find on these mystical flights is yourself. The founder of western monasticism, St Benedict, was well aware of this danger & his Rule was designed to keep the monks well grounded.

      • Sanctimony

        Our local CofE vicar… sadly deceased… discussed the question of the Trinity once in our favourite seedy boozer and as he knew he would have to buy the next bottle if he failed to give me a satisfactory answer, he suggested that one might like to compare the Trinity to a cricket umpire who, for one over stands over the stumps, where he has a clear view of all three stumps and, at the end of that over, retreats to sq

        • JabbaPapa

          So that’s one more of your monomaniacal sockpuppets to add to my block list, “clatterbourne”

          • Sanctimony

            Oooh, get you…. you really are a very nasty piece of work, aren’t you…. paranoid enough to spend hours and hours delving into people’s blog pasts… I tell you what I came across the other day …. a description of your route march on the Camino where you experienced

          • Sanctimony

            Oooh, get you…. you really are a very nasty piece of work, aren’t you…. paranoid enough to spend hours and hours delving into people’s blog pasts… I tell you what I came across the other day …. a description of your route march on the Camino where you experienced a Marian vision…. which confirmed your idiotic and blind faith.

            You are a 24 carat fraud, allied to a bullying and hectoring character who will brook no one else’s point of view…

            You spend from dawn till long after dusk giving vent to your spleen and venom… you are a bigoted, lonely, celibate old bat, of indeterminate s€x, with a huge reservoir of bile and poison that needs frequent emptying…

          • JabbaPapa

            See ? — Comment by Sanctimony blocked

            No more loathesome hate mail from you, vile troll.

        • Richard Baranov

          It sounds to me that your vicar had one to many drinks! 🙂 It’s an awful explanation but amusing. It actually made me laugh to read it, so my guess your vicar had a wonderful sense of humour.

      • Adam Carter

        Can anyone explain the Trinity?
        For me it’s a ridiculous idea but isn’t the official Christian view that it’s a Mystery, i.e. incapable of being understood by humans?
        This is a requeast for information, I’d be happy to get a more informed view.

        • Reagan40

          In what way is the trinity responsible for the madness of Islam and mohammedans? Can you explain the heavenly brothel promised to the faithfuls by Mohammed? I mean the rivers of alcohol, perpetual virgins and eternal erections to do the virgins? Are you such dimwit seeking to be tutored on the trinity here to detract from the thrust of the article under discussion? Google trinity and get back to me.

          • Adam Carter

            No, I’m not a dimwit at all.
            I asked for information in a calm and reasonable tone.
            I did not link the doctrine of the Trinity to the beliefs of the RoP in any way.
            Are you a Christian? The tone of your response is hardly a Christian one.
            Now that’s the reasonable part of my response to you.
            Now the mildly insulting part: go away and practise, or do a course in, Reading Comprehension because you are clearly deficient in that skill.
            Now the more insulting part – you have lowered the tone of this discussion either because you are a moron or idiot or because you are so full of inadequacies that you need to vent your anger on anonymous websites to compensate for your lack of physical vigour and masculinity.
            Go forth and multiply. (That’s if you can stand to attention.)

          • Reagan40

            How reasonable and calm is this?
            “Can anyone explain the Trinity?
            For me it’s a ridiculous idea but isn’t the official Christian view that it’s a Mystery, i.e. incapable of being understood by humans?
            This is a requeast for information, I’d be happy to get a more informed view.”

            Trinity is ridiculous to muslims or Christians?
            Trinity mystery? Which official Christian view? Source?
            And you consider that a polite request for information?

            Do you agree with me that you’re a dimwit?
            Can you convey the rest of your rant in a sentence? What are you trying so hard to say?

          • Adam Carter

            I refer you to the reply that Richard Baranov gave me.
            That’s the way to explain things.
            Your way will not change anyone’s mind and now you are making yourself look foolish as well as angry.
            And no, of course I don’t agree with you that I am a dimwit.
            In fact the first sentence of my intitial reply to you made that clear.
            I nalso suggested that you should practise your Reading Comprehension.
            We can all see that you haven’t been doing it, have you?

          • The_Common_Potato

            He’s trying to understand the Trinity and was asking for your view on what it is. Why is this a problem for you?

          • Reagan40

            It’s a problem to me because I do not answer trolls. Trinity is not the issue in the article. Trinity is not Islam. The whole world has got a Muslim problem. Trinity is not responsible for islamic fascism. Trinity has been here long before Islam came with it’s filth and trinity will still be here long after lslam is gone.

          • Mr B J Mann

            So what religion are you?

            You sound like a member of the Sect of the Progressive Passive Agressives (pbuThem)?!

        • Richard Baranov

          It really depends on which type of Christian you are talking to. The two major interpretations are either the Roman Catholic explanation or the explanation given by the Orthodox Church. I prefer the explanation of the Orthodox Church because, as Demaris points out, their language is Greek, the language in which most of these doctrinal points were hammered out. So here is a link to their explanation: https://oca.org/orthodoxy/the-orthodox-faith/doctrine/the-holy-trinity
          Actually, I don’t think the Trinity is a “ridiculous idea” at all but I do think that why people have so many problems understanding it is because most people now-a-days, in the West, know very little about Greek philosophy which Christianity used as a “framework” in order to explain itself. Justin Martyr, (100 – 165 AD) who was first schooled in Greek philosophy remarked that Christianity was a continuation and the culmination of Greek philosophy, the Cappadocian Fathers, Basil the Great, Gregory of Nyssa, and Gregory of Nazianzus, were of the same opinion. Those three are probably the greatest theologians of the early church. So, unless you dismiss Greek philosophy as so much nonsense, it should give pause for thought that they believed such a thing, especially since they were saturated with Greek thought, through and through. So I would suggest that a rudimentary knowledge of Greek philosophy, especially in its later phases is helpful for understanding the context of the Trinitarian Concept. Hope the above remarks are of some help.

          • Adam Carter

            Yes, thank you.
            I can understand the idea of the deity having a number of aspects to his character but I can’t understand the idea of 3 persons in 1, all equal, all eternal.
            I can understand the Trinty as an image. I think it’s similar to what is termed the tri-partite soul (I’m ready to be corrected on that if I’m wrong) but it’s not presented as an image; it’s presented as a matter of fact that must be believed and I am unable to think in terms of 3 in 1 and 1 in 3.
            In fact it was a devout Catholic who told me that it is a Mystery, outside the bounds of human understanding.I don’t know if that is doctrine or if it was the way it was explained to him when he was struggling with it.

          • Richard Baranov

            The Greek is persona, mask or appearance. Why it is misleading is that persona has become to mean ‘person’ in English,the Greeks did not mean that at all when talking about the Trinity hence the confusion. That is why I suggest you read a little Greek philosophy. I think you would find it enlightening regardless. There is so much we think and do that is the inheritance of Greek thought. It is therefore a real eye opener to learn. Lots of ‘aha!’ moments as things you know but, in sense don’t know, because only half aware of the story, click into place. And I don’t mean specifically Christian thought but just the way we think about things in general. In short, Greek thought is a journey of discovery with direct contemporary relevance.
            As for tri-partite soul, is that gurdjieffian, or some such?

          • JabbaPapa

            One way of looking at it — not an accurate one as such, just a helpful metaphor — is to see the three Persons of God as our three ways of conceiving of God and gods : as the transcendental Creator (the Father), as the God of Love intervening in Creation (the Spirit), and as the Divine Source of our own humanity (the Son). (more abstract philosophical/anthropological explanations of these three conceptions of God also exist, suggesting that there are three ways of conceiving of a god — transcendental, immanent & immaterial, anthropomorphic & material — which exist simultaneously in the Trinity)

            In fact it was a devout Catholic who told me that it is a Mystery, outside the bounds of human understanding. I don’t know if that is doctrine or if it was the way it was explained to him when he was struggling with it.

            It’s doctrine.

            Every explanation of the Divine Trinity is necessarily incomplete, due to our incomplete knowledge and understanding of God, as well as because the Divine Nature transcends our ability to think, speak, or write of it.

          • JabbaPapa

            The two major interpretations are either the Roman Catholic explanation or the explanation given by the Orthodox Church

            They are functionally identical, regardless of the fact that the Eastern Orthodox and the Catholics emphasise the various parts of the doctrine in different ways.

        • johnb1945

          Try this.
          I take a gulp because this kind of thing can provoke hysteria.

          The trinity has 3 components of a single God, Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

          A central premise of Christianity (in all forms I know of) is that the creator Father works in people through his Holy Spirit, and that if you are faithful and loving then God’s holy spirit will work through, and change you personally.

          The Son (Jesus) was a physical man who was filled with God’s Holy spirit. He was God made man. By his example, which is eternal, he showed us all that a) God wanted his Holy Spirit to work in us and b) how to allow his Holy Spirit to work in us.

          That’s the basics of it. The Father Son and Holy Spirit all do different things, but they are all part of the one God.

      • Reagan40

        You should know where to get answers to questions you have about any religion. You are brain dead if you think you can get your questions about Islam or Christianity answered by every Mohammed, abdul and Peter on the street. If you’re serious about getting answers, you know where to go.

        • Richard Baranov

          You are quite wrong. One Greek theologian, I don’t remember which, perhaps Damaris remembers, complained that these sort of discussions were part and parcel of everyday conversation in the market place.
          Actually, I know very well where to go, thanks, I have been studying and learning this stuff almost exclusively for well over 40 years because it is germane to my profession and because these things are far more important than you realize.

    • Shazza

      I totally agree with you but would like to add to your excellent assessment.

      The current crop of teachers have all been schooled in liberal institutions and subjected to the teaching of revisionist history. They now abhor their own culture, are embarrassed by the great successes and accomplishments of previous generations and manifest great guilt at their perceived ‘white’ privilege. They heartily embrace the tenets of multiculturalism and believe that not only are all cultures equal, but sadly their own, is lacking – hence the constant apologising for success/learning/achievement over less evolved cultures. Note how now achievement in football is considered of far greater reason for adulation than progress in science, etc. (Comments in newspapers regarding articles on space exploration/University Challenge sadly reflect this). Other cultures are celebrated but their own is a source of shame.

      Slightly OT but relevant – It is rather amusing to note how the MSM go into joyous overdrive when reporting on any achievement by a member of the RoP – great emphasis is always placed on their religious beliefs but when as in the case of the grooming scandal, an umbrella term is used.

      The imbibing of vast quantities of KoolAid is enthusiastically undertaken within our institutions not just education.

      • Damaris Tighe

        All good points!

        • greencoat

          As Eddie Izzard once said:

          Cake or death?

      • JewishKuffar

        Muslim lady bakes a nice cake – National Celebration on the BBC! Eeeverything bad done by Islam on a daily basis – deafening silence.

        • Jab

          Yes, its the BBC manipulation I cant stand, its rather too obvious to me!

      • teepee

        You’re right about the indoctrination of teachers – and their often rank ignorance. The case of my other half’s nephew gives me some cause for hope. He’s 29, so has marinated in PC his whole life, but rejects its edicts almost instinctively, as do many of his peer group. I suspect the reason may be that he (and most of his friends) did not go to university – and his secondary education was so incompetent that his teachers weren’t even up to indoctrinating him. He has high native intelligence, is a problem-solver and enjoys great success in his career, which is strictly meritocratic and did not require a degree to enter. The state education system is probably not amenable to rescue, so I would advocate pupils escaping its clutches as soon as possible – and not contemplating university unless it’s essential and/or they wish to study hard sciences.

    • JOhn Mackie

      The only answer I can think of is subconscious fear. The sort of fear
      that makes you try to befriend your enemy. The sort of fear you have
      when you’re mired in relativism & have no absolute values to provide
      a moral & cultural backbone. In other words, the appropriately
      named Stockholm Syndrome.

      bingo bingo bingo

    • edithgrove

      or, as Orwell pointed out, ‘All in all it is difficult not to feel that pacifism, as it appears among a section of the intelligentsia, is secretly inspired by an admiration for power and successful cruelty’

    • MikeF

      In this instance Malmo Syndrome might be even more appropriate terminology.

      • Damaris Tighe

        Yes indeed Mike. A leading actor from a Swedish police drama shown by the BBC (don’t watch it so don’t know name) has dropped out of the series because he’s Jewish, & says he no longer ‘feels comfortable’ in Malmo where they film.

        • johnb1945

          Kim Bodnia.

          The Bridge.

    • 1688

      Regarding Rotherham & 1400 child victims … perhaps s Yorks police could set similar essays about joys of Islam ?

    • 1688

      Regarding Rotherham : perhaps s Yorks police could set similar essay title to 1400 ignored child victims of multi – culti see no Evil appeasers .

  • Arthur Thistlewood

    it is never, never legitimate to take legal action action someone who expresses hatred of a belief system.

  • Patrick Villiers

    I admit to being a Kafir, but I have gained a very special admiration for Muslim beliefs, especially the Sunni variety. Only Sunnis seemingly enjoy the abilities and traits that enable them to
    accomplish so much that they have clearly surpassed our enfeebled and corrupted western societies.

    Their courage and determination was exemplified when their brave warriors aimed their flame-throwers at the caged Jordanian pilot whose aircraft had crashed behind their lines. And the film footage of manacled Egyptian workers having their throats cut by Sunni adherents of ISIS was final
    proof that their religious fervour knows no bounds. Who else could imagine a better use for
    uneducated children and handicapped women than to strap them into explosive vests and indoctrinate them to wreak havoc amongst the unbelievers?

    This is truly a religion that that must prove popular amongst our young Pakistani and Somali immigrants. And it is to be hoped that they will answer the call to Syria in their masses. Although
    without them, many European countries will surely regret their loss. The enervating tension that characterises and enlivens our inner cities will be sorely missed.

    As is to be expected, your ever-expanding State will surely be the paradise you so clearly deserve and we shall do our unstinting duty to provide the necessary finance by purchasing the oil that God
    has so abundantly supplied. And the countries of the now defunct socialist block will deliver the necessary weaponry at very advantageous terms.

    You are to be congratulated on having successfully halted the steady progress of our corrupt, colonialist, liberal democracy throughout every Muslim country, rigorously enforcing the only true
    religious practice and are now on the verge of converting the whole of Continental Europe through immigration and the profligate fecundity of the Faithful.

    With the help of Corbynistas, the teachers´ unions, the media and all those of Good Faith, the Final Solution is within your grasp, and I have now decided that my time has come to join the Faithful!

    PS

    Is circumcision mandatory?

    • Mr B J Mann

      Only if you don’t want to be executed!

  • sarahsmith232

    Read an absolute humdinger of an explanation for all this – Fred Siegel ‘The House Divided’, absolute MUST, MUST read. How to sum it up quickly? Postmodern Pluralism, I would say to the lot doing their ‘The Strange Death of Liberalism. . . Again’ stuff after the Lib Dem wipe out, read that and understand why. We’re not living in a liberal age, we’re, and have been for the last 30yrs, living in the anti-liberal age, the Postmodern age of Multiculturalism and Political Correctness. The Lib Dem wipe out was an e.g of a rejection of that and a yearning for a return for a more REALLY liberal society.
    The poor unfortunates demanding we start pulling down statues are a product of this, their whole entire identity as that of victim of anything that represents ‘the West’. They have no ability to understand themselves when not set against ‘the white’ ‘the west’ ‘the whatever else represents western significance’.
    Please check the ‘The House Divided’ thing, absolute humdinger of a read.

    • mickey667

      What?

      • sarahsmith232

        check the above luvlie.

    • HolgerDansk

      Can you write that again? In English perhaps?

      • sarahsmith232

        tee hee, ooops, did I just write gobbledegook? ok so, A) Liberal, what describes it? Not what the Metro lot believes. B) What they believe describes ‘liberal’ is actually PostMod’ Pluralism, the opposite of liberal, hostile to, in fact.
        REally, the ‘The House Divided’ thing is a great, must read.

        • HolgerDansk

          Cheers. I think you got a bit excited 😉

    • Bonzo

      Thanks for the recommendation. Just read it, a good article that neatly sums up the problem.

  • putin

    I think the (regressive) left is genuinely quite stupid and particularly ignorant of maths, science and history. They’d swim with crocodiles if you told them it fit their ideology.

  • Walfgang Unkmadeus

    Religion should not be celebrated but studied forensically, like one would a cancer, with the view to finding a cure.

    • greencoat

      Oh, here we go again. Look pal, there’s only one religion anyone has any problems with and we all know which one it is.

      • trekker2002

        But that is just because the others have outgrown their 14th Century phase. You really wouldn’t have wanted to be a non Christian living in Europe in the Middle Ages and from 1530 to 1689 being the wrong sort of Christian in the wrong place was enough to get you killed. Even today being a declared Atheist in parts of the USA can lead to a less than happy relationship with neighbours.

        • alfredo

          Why would your neighbours have to know that you’re an atheist?

          • CO Jones

            If they didn’t see you in church, any church, that might just give them a clue?

          • trekker2002

            I think you will find that Church is far more a part of the social fabric in much of the USA, so non Church attendance is far more noticeable there than it is here and religion is spoken about far more openly in their culture than here.

        • Gergiev

          I wouldn’t have wanted to be a Christian living in 20th century Russia or China either, but that’s no reason to obliterate socialism is it? On the other hand….

          • hobspawn

            It’s one of the many.

        • Reagan40

          We’re no longer in the middle ages. Can we focus on the moment please?

          • trekker2002

            That was the point I was making. We are no longer in the 14th Century but the Islamic world in many respects is. They may have made the journey to modernity in a superficial sense but have not necessarily made the philosophical one. Religious tolerance and acceptance of pluralism is largely the norm in the Western world, it is not in other parts of the world.

      • Walfgang Unkmadeus

        I have a problem with all “belief” in the supernatural. It is all harmful to humanity.

        • hobspawn

          Except yours, of course. And before you say “but I don’t believe in the supernatural”, you haven’t the first idea what you believe.

          • Walfgang Unkmadeus

            But I don’t believe in the supernatural

    • Reagan40

      You need to focus on the thrust of the article and stop dispersing your energy. No problem is solved by you being neither here nor there. Are you Muslim?

      • Walfgang Unkmadeus

        My comment was 100% on message, I would argue. It’s about celebrating religion – islam, in this case – in our schools.

        And no, I’m not Muslim.

        • Reagan40

          Are you being sarcastic? You mean celebrating the islamic filth? Why do you think Islam is a religion if you don’t mind me asking?

          • Walfgang Unkmadeus

            If you think islam isn’t a religion, you should alert the rest of the world. I think they’ve all got the wrong end of the stick, boyo!

        • colchar

          Why should a medieval death cult that is nothing more than a cancer on this world be celebrated?

  • Ahobz

    Getting in two or even three boxes of popcorn before sitting down to read the comments on this one. Well done Rod.

  • Ingmar Blessing

    Good teaching in this matter would have been to leave the kids with the choice of religion. They read a little about it, learn about it and then write a letter, why “Buddhism is now their thing”, or Russian Orthodoxy. We’re secular enough that in a lot of cases the religious coming out of child would surprise the parents, even if it’s just the one of the neighborhood church.

    This way tough, the intention was clearly an ideological one – again – to test how far you can go in “fighting islamophobia”.

    What stupid, stupid people those just are who are running our institutions. If I lived in Guernsey an had a child, I’d be happy to pay the extra Euros for a private school.

    BTW: Check on how many children your politicians have. It’ll surprise you, well, if it’s like in Germany: They have none. Zero.

    • Reagan40

      Don’t you know there is a lot of money from the middle east funding the propagation of Islam in schools worldwide? Money is the one speaking. Nothing more. Nothing else. Nothing less.

    • Germainecousin

      BTW: Check on how many children your politicians have. It’ll surprise you, well, if it’s like in Germany: They have none. Zero.

      And that is precisely why they do not give a xxxx, they have no vested interest in the future, all that matters for them is the here and now.

      • Ingmar Blessing

        Yep, exactly. I’m currently collecting the numbers and it’s breath-taking…

        My list contains 2200 MPs (state and federal level) and overall they have about the same average as the normal population. But if you only take the ones born between 1976 and 1985, who are pretty much done with family planing, it is 307 MPs and they have an overall 228 children. That makes 0,66 children per MP. 184 of them have no children at all, which is a staggering 59%…

        But the really crazy thing is the ones born in the 80s. They are 90% child-free and only have an average of 0,2 children per MP!

        I wonder, what attracts them in politics and not those who actually have a live. The entire thing went incredible sour. My theory is that when you have children you can’t use twitter all day long or attend on networking events from Friday to Sunday…

        When looking at all those “Refugee Welcome” screamers in Munich half a year ago, I believe those were exactly those child- and future-less creatures. I kind of feel pity for them.

        Oh, btw and there is no difference between politically right and left. They became all the same. Since the 70s there is a straight to a streamlined state. That is why you don’t necessarily get conservative politics when you vote conservative.

        They are always screaming for a regulated women share in politics and business. I believe we should get one for families first.

      • wasteman

        You zapped that knowledge of cngela Merkel no kids and no vested interest from Gavin mciness I believe or someone on YouTube like me. Edenham

    • colchar

      They were not testing how far you can go in fighting Islamophobia, they were actively promoting Islam.

  • HolgerDansk

    I like to think that I’ve educated my children enough that, if their techers ever had the mind to try this sort of stunt, they’d either refuse to join in the pernicious exercise on moral grounds or rightly point out some of the basic tenets of the RofP that the libertards conveniently ignore time after time. FFS this country.

    • trekker2002

      My son (now 22) was told in an RE lesson when he was about 15 that he should write PBUH after the name Mohammed in his written work. This was in a non faith comprehensive school! He politely told his teacher he would not be doing so since he was not a Muslim, she told him he was being disrespectful. He has arrived at atheism or at least pretty strong agnosticism by not attending a faith school, having non religious parents, being encouraged to think for himself and having to hold his own in tea table debates over the 6 o’clock news. We even had our own little disclaimer to recite after news stories involving Islam, along the lines of ‘We must of course remember that Islam is the religion of peace’.

      • Germainecousin

        But it will make little difference in the long run. He will still eat meat that has been ritually killed, his local council will still ban anything that pertains to Christian heritage such as mention of Christmas, his ability to express himself will be severely curtailed if he wants to work in any of the professions. God forbid he ever gets ill, he will still be treated by doctors who have a very different take on the world. Of course a very nice lady in a hood won a baking competition and showed us all to be muppets worrying about nothing, we all meet our spouse for the first time, the night before our wedding just like she did.

      • GoJebus

        Sounds like a bright lad, with clever parents. Religious education should be banned. It is an oxymoron and has no useful purpose, other than to remind us of how low we can sink as human beings.

        • trekker2002

          I think RE as a study of religion as a phenomenon is a fascinating subject with a rightful place in school. It is the teaching of it as ‘our faith’ which has no place as it is indoctrination not education. Teaching children about how many different faiths are believed by people helps to give them well calibrated ‘bull****’ meters’, which work equally well against extremist political views as well as religious ones.

          • Mr B J Mann

            You might be right about teaching it as THE faith…

            But surely Christianity IS “our faith”?

            Last time I checked the Christian holidays were still the official ones, the head of state was still anointed in a Christian ceremony, and it was still Christian religious leaders who had token seats in the Houses of Parliament.

            Have I missed something?

        • JabbaPapa

          Religious education should be banned

          Spoken like a true extremist atheist bigot.

          • GoJebus

            Thanks Torquemada.

  • João Manuel Gomes

    You wouldn’t really need to present the argument of an essay like this being done in a theocratic Muslim country.

    Even in a (supposedly) secular country like Turkey, one would only have to imagine the national outrage if a Teacher decided to propose an essay for his students wherein they would tell their parents they had converted to Christianity and how their lives were oh so much better …

    I can picture it already: President Erdogan doing a press conference, his face red like a tomato, vociferously condemning the school that allowed this to happen, while blaming the Kurds for clearly engaging yet again in another episode of “Anti-Turkish” shenanigans …

    • tom_billesley

      Don’t forget the obligatory reference to foreign agencies having a hand in it, alluding to Israel and the West. These days, Russia and Iran too.

    • Reagan40

      Bring it home to the west. What will happen in America or Europe if a teacher asked his pupils to write such to parents that they have accepted Christ as their Lord and savior. What do you think Muslim parents will do? Do you even think non Christian parents that are not Muslims will take it lightly?

  • Mr B J Mann

    I am also aware that it is a sort of non-sequitur to suggest that if in any Islamic country children were told to write an essay explaining why they had converted to Christianity and how absolutely bloody marvellous it was, all that uplifting Jesus stuff, the teachers would all be — at the very best — in jail before the muezzin’s evening wail

    WHAT?!?!?!

    Even in THIS country if children, even non RoPers, were told to write an essay explaining why
    they had converted to Christianity and how absolutely bloody marvellous it was, all that uplifting Jesus stuff, the teachers would all be — at the very best — in jail before the muezzin’s evening wail.

    For everything from Islamophobia, through Breach of the RoPeace, to child abuse!

  • http://thelogician.net Avi Sion

    Surely, in a sane world, or at least in a non-insane one, teachers would be arming children with good reasons to resist the utter madness and utter evil of Islam. Instead, they are now actively preparing children for total and unconditional surrender to Islam without a fight or so much as a peep of protest.

    • Germainecousin

      Take a look at the BBC news website, it is choc a block full of stories/features about islam ranging from muslim burial grounds in France to the women only mosques of China. This is the UK public broadcaster and it has clearly been deeply influenced by muslims from the top down. People seem to think that if the worse came to the worse the ordinary person on the street will rise up and say enough. It just will not happen, there is a constant drip feed going on about this deadly cult and very few are even aware of how they and their children are being manipulated by their broadcaster, schools and even by their health care professionlas

      • http://thelogician.net Avi Sion

        My friend, this is not only true in Britain but throughout Europe and the wider Western world. That is the problem – we are sold out in advance by absolute traitors.

        • Reagan40

          The story is the same in every part of Africa and elsewhere in the world. Mohammedans are laughing at us as they’ve infiltrated everywhere by stealth jihad.

        • Germainecousin

          I agree, I cannot find a single European country that has refused to sell out.

          • wasteman

            Racist

      • Mc

        The BBC is obsorbed not only by the beauties of Islam. Its website and other mediums are brimming with every conceivable Social Justice hobby horse

    • Sponsz

      Read Michel Houellebecq’s novel “Submission.”

      A frighteningly plausible illustration of how I*slam could take over national education in the near future. Not all gloom and doom though – some good laughs along the way.

  • Mr Grumpy

    Well, who will assure us that dhimmitude is not going to be a necessary life skill for this generation of kids? Not the day after tomorrow, obviously, but 50/60/70 years from now.

    As for the Danes, what a shame, I thought they were among the good guys. There goes another reason for staying In.

  • Jack

    S I C K

    • Social Justice Warrior

      agreed. That sums up Rod Lidl nicely

      • SunnyD

        you chump

        • wasteman

          Racist.

          • Tom Cullem

            Bore.

          • SunnyD

            wasteman
            I always wanted you to go into space, man

            wasteman
            I always wanted you to go into space, man

            Upvoting yourself
            Cos you are so alone
            Beyond your darkened bedroom
            Trying to take control

            Self upvoting yourself is akin to giving yourself a high-five. Rather sad. And calling me a racist to me reveals more to me about your character than you probably realise.
            Tsk tsk tsk

      • wasteman

        Racist

    • wasteman

      Racist..

      • colchar

        Are you capable of saying anything else?

        • wasteman

          Yes but I look to troll because the word tries to shut up non racist people while on the other hand true racists like KKK and Blwck panthers revel in it

  • MikeF

    If you are prosecuted for ‘exercising your right to free speech’ then you haven’t got a right to free speech. That is the point – an understanding of the absolute necessity for freedom of speech as an integral part of a decent democratic society is being deliberately undermined throughout the West. But then so is the idea of pluralist, democratic, civil society.

  • Reagan40

    That is Islam creeping and infiltrating the lives of our kids pretending to be an angel of light. Islam is a curse on humanity. Mohammedans are carriers of that curse and like the bubonic and ebola plagues, any nation that refuses to ban/destroy islam will die in its filth.

    • colchar

      That entire religion is a cancer and the world desperately needs a good course of chemotherapy!

      • Reagan40

        I agree with you.

  • Teacher

    I wish someone had asked my kids to write this letter. The results would have been hilarious. I couldn’t get them to pick a sock off the floor without a sarcastic, sanctimonious diatribe about their ‘yuman rights’ to be lazy gits. I don’t think the whole of Islam could have stood up to their stroppy invective.

  • Marvin

    Do we need anymore proof that Islam is has conquered the west? One dimensional liberal love for equality is the weakness of the white west that will permit the destruction of western civilised life and a total surrender to a primitive, dogmatic, medieval cult.

  • Vinnie

    If these children can be converted to Islam in an afternoon, can they start playing the race card the very next day? Or if they are Muslims just like that if they are white can they still criticize Islam and it still be considered racist?

  • Burn-em Upus Asphaltus

    Islam preaches terror, repression, deceit, violence, hatred and totalitarianism. Its teachings have zero respect for human beings and human rights. Its answer to everything is violence and murder. It creates followers who are devoid of individual thought and creativity – people who can not create even a single new idea. It employs massive and heinous mind control. It is sadistic, misogynistic, and calls for its adherents to repress or kill any group who will not accept diabolical Islam. It produces nothing and takes everything. It is probably the most evil, ruthless and insidious religion in all of human history. It is further from perfect and peaceful than any religion on earth yet some Muslims still want to believe it is perfect and peaceful.

    • critical_thinker

      good luck with taking this attitude towards Islam to your grave.

  • Walfgang Unkmadeus

    To assign the same homework with christianity – or any other religion, for that matter – would be just as wrong.

    • JabbaPapa

      Would it be OK if it was about “how I converted to atheism” ?

      Actually though, I agree — this homework subject is intrinsically offensive for multiple reasons.

      • Walfgang Unkmadeus

        Atheism isn’t a “thing”. There’s nothing to convert to.

        It’s like saying “I’m in the I-Stopped-Collecting-Butterflies Club”.

        • JabbaPapa

          The internet, including your pal Dawkins, disagrees with you : https://www.google.com/#q=converted%20to%20atheism

          • Walfgang Unkmadeus

            Are you retarded?

          • JabbaPapa

            ah, well, here we go again with the usual arrogant dogmatism of the typical online atheist, and the typical “rational” opinion of the typical online atheist that anyone who doesn’t think exactly as he does must be “stupid”.

          • Walfgang Unkmadeus

            No, I’m just talking about you being stupid. The “Internet” means “just people”, and it’s no surprise that “people” would disagree with my view.

            Nonetheless, atheism still isn’t a thing. If you want to argue that it is, you’ll need to do better than copy and paste a link to some search on the Information Superhighway.

          • JabbaPapa

            Nothing you’ve said there contradicts my point about your arrogance and your dogmatism, and BTW you’re just another person on the internet from anybody’s point of view but your own, so you’ll have to do better than that to counter my evidence that conversions to atheism exist and are even encouraged by some militant atheists.

  • gelert

    LOL

    You would love Japan, Rod. Not only is there not a Muslim in sight, but they seem to have rejected the multicutural diversity that successive UK governments have foisted on us. You can walk anywhere, day or night, without the fear of being mugged. Not only are the Japanese scrupulously honest, but tipping is regarded as an insult.

    It also has beautiful scenery, people who are welcoming and a transport system that puts anything in Europe to shame.

    Try it ! You’ll soon find it’s much better than Skeggie 😉

  • Liberanos

    These children should be proud to be infidels, while of course, being distinctly circumspect of those whose religion targets them for destruction…in writing.

  • Michael H Kenyon

    Adopting another’s perspective is a way to shift attitudes, so this was a clear Trojan Horse. There might have been a bit of a tizzy if Muslim children had to write a letter on why they were converting to Christianity or Judaism.

    • mohdanga

      “There might have been a bit of a tizzy if Muslim children had to write a letter on why they were converting to Christianity or Judaism.” That’s an understatement!! There would have been Muslims rioting in the streets, and the politicians placating them by promising universal “sensitivity training”!

      • Michael H Kenyon

        English understatement. Stops all the hysterics in this sort of area.

  • SunnyD

    Don’t get me wrong, I went to a catholic school and had a good education. However, as someone much more intelligent than me once said, ALL religion is interpretative and based on FAITH not FACT. Because of that there is no “centre” to it that all can agree on. So gentle people will pick on the gentle bits and murderous b@stards will pick on the evil bits. The reason that this time it is a much MUCH bigger problem now – and this is a central problem with all religions – is the belief in an after life and, in the case of so many of the current lunatics, the belief that it’s a f@cking great one with virgins awaiting and so on.. (never mind the dubious morality of numerous virgins being offered or the question of what the women martyrs can look forward to)
    Years and years ago (almost like another age) we had an opportunity to phase faith schools out. And as I said, I went through Catholic schooling: primary, middle, secondary and sixth form… and I know now more than ever that they are a madness. Why a sane society allows an act of faith to be disseminated to children as a “reality” and does so at state level, I will never understand. in fact the root problem is that we are always told we must “respect” religious belief. No one respected me when I put “Jedi” on my census form. In fact lots of people laughed (you can get that smile off your face too). You don’t see me or my fellow Jedi starting a holy war over it do you? (rant over)

    • JabbaPapa

      as someone much more intelligent than me once said, ALL religion is interpretative and based on FAITH not FACT

      That is only partially true — in reference to your Catholic background, the core of the Dogma remains stable, and its existence depends on interpretation not at all. I’m not sure how liberal or orthodox the religious part of your education was, but the notion that the Dogma itself is as open to interpretation as the less central doctrines or the pastoral guidelines is a theory of the liberal faction of the Church, that can easily lead to exactly the sort of confusion in both its interpretation and its teaching that you allude to.

      Religious education in many Catholic schools was anyway extremely poor in the late 20th Century, as bad as what these schoolchildren in Guernsey are being subjected to I’d say, and particularly between the 1960s and 1980s.

      It’s true nonetheless that much in the Faith and much of the Scripture even is open to personal interpretation, including because a central purpose of the interpretative nature of those elements is precisely to encourage the sorts of questions that they raise.

      • GoJebus

        One of the great mysteries of God JP, why he has given you a pea brain to cogitate on what form he might take, rather than letting you in on the secret. You’ve had to develop theology to try and put a pseudo-scientific shine on what is no more than a steaming pile of human plop.

        • JabbaPapa

          I made not a single statement about God in that post, you blithering imbecile.

          • GoJebus

            Boing! Ah, OK, so when you mention doctrine and dogma and Catholic and Religious and Faith, and Scripture, none of those roads lead to Mr Pathetic the sky monkey?

          • JabbaPapa

            I am not responsible for any ludicrous atheist fantasies that your brain might be abuzz with.

          • GoJebus

            True you are not. My favourite fantasy involving you is the one where your theology teacher turns to you and says ‘Jabba, you realise this is all bullsh@t don’t you?’ I have many others.

      • Giuseppe Cappa

        I would add that faith in God is also based on reasoning on facts, as the large corpus of scientific and philosophical literature on Natural Theology shows. Bitter, hard-core atheists can ignore reason and facts, but facts and reason still hold.

        • GoJebus

          What are the ‘facts’ that you refer to Giuseppe? Something cannot be reasonable when it is believed despite there being NO evidence for it. That’s NO evidence. N.O. (NO) evidence, with an N and an O.

          Just because a large body of work exists on the subject doesn’t make it real. Only evidence can do that (bones, footprints, eggs – that kind of thing). I could spend the next 20 years writing many books on the little man who lives in my telephone, but he isn’t real (or maybe you’ll think he is).

          • JabbaPapa

            Your arbitrary rejection of 3rd party testimony as evidence in the question of religion, even though there is NO justification for it given that the vast majority of ALL that we consider as evidence is constituted of 3rd party testimony, does not magically vanish it all away just on your say-so.

          • GoJebus

            Why is a test for the existence of a deity any different than a test for the existence of dinosaurs, or anything else?

            “OK constable, you have brought this case against JoN, who you have charged with stealing petrol thirty years ago, correct?”.
            “Yes, your honour it was JoN, he was stealing petrol”.
            “Ah, OK constable, what evidence can you provide the court for that?”.
            “None, your honour. But Luke, who I’m unable to interview because he’s dead saw him doing it thirty years ago, wrote a story about it and I believe him”
            “Can you show the court any evidence that backs up that story: photographs, gloves, petrol cans, tubing, contaminated clothes, any evidence that the petrol was procured, any evidence from JoN’s house that he took petrol, was intending to steal petrol, any evidence at all that he was actually stealing petrol on that night, that he was there on the night?”
            “No your honour. Absolutely f@ck all”.
            “Case dismissed. Next!”

          • JabbaPapa

            Why is a test for the existence of a deity any different than a test for the existence of dinosaurs, or anything else?

            Please can you describe a methodology of testing that would satisfy your requirements ?

            What instruments should be used, what substances tested, and can you please explain the material difference between “god-ness” and “not-god-ness” that such tests would look for ?

            Please can you demonstrate that God must necessarily be material in nature ?

          • GoJebus

            Nope, I don’t have to. You say that God exists, therefore the onus is on you to provide the evidence for it. However, I would be looking for cast iron evidence of the Christian God, together with his son and his ghost and his virgin mum, such that there can be no doubt that we (and the universe) were all made by him.

            Let’s turn this into a competition: I assert that the Flying Spaghetti Monster exists. OK, let’s see who can come up with the evidence first. 3.2.1 go!

          • JabbaPapa

            the onus is on you to provide the evidence

            How can I do that without knowing the criteria for the evidence that would be acceptable to you ? It is basic scientific methodology to determine in advance exactly what it is than one will be testing as evidence.

            All you’ve provided so far is that you’ll refuse to accept all of the standard evidence of God as “evidence” — so, what type of evidence **would** you accept ?

            I assert that the Flying Spaghetti Monster … is a moronic atheist cliché with exactly NO value whatsoever.

            FTFY

          • GoJebus

            Standard evidence for Mr Nasty? Do not make me die laughing.

            And, how dare you blaspheme the name of he who must be flambeed.

          • JabbaPapa

            This arbitrary decision to reject any and all forms of evidence as being “laughable” precludes the remotest possibility of anyone presenting any acceptable evidence to you.

            Your gross prejudice in this matter precludes any possibility that anyone at all might satisfy the request that you’re pretending to make, for whichever stupid and dishonest “reason” of your own.

            Your use of the vocabulary and expressions of atheist cliché rather than anything belonging to any actual science is a dead giveaway of that dishonesty. As is your apparent complete fool ignorance of the intrinsic limitations to scientific inquiry, i.e. that metaphysical questions cannot be resolved by examining any properties of physical phenomena. This is because the physics and metaphysics are mutually exclusive of each other in this respect.

          • GoJebus

            Shut the f@ck up Torquemada, and get me some proof.

          • JabbaPapa

            A rather moronically self-contradictory and therefore intrinsically irrational set of requests.

          • GoJebus

            I said shut the f@ck up Torquemada, and get me some proof

          • JabbaPapa

            I’ll keep quiet about it then.

            Twit.

          • hobspawn

            I have evidence right here in front of me. I have tested it and it represents strong evidence of an unimaginably powerful prime cause. It appears to be capable of making decisions too, which isn’t fully explained by the Standard Model. It is far from the only piece of evidence available to me, but it fits the requirement. I accept that some, like you, are not capable of understanding what is before them, like budgerigars examining LHC particle tracks, and it would certainly be an arduous task to try to explain it to you, but nevertheless, here it is. Not conclusive perhaps, but perfectly satisfactory as far as I am concerned.

            It should be pointed out that mainstream scientific explanations are full of hocus pocus, and ad hoc entities whose main purpose is to save theories which are entirely broken from the experimental perspective. Dark Flow, for instance.

          • GoJebus

            F@ck me, here comes Hobsgoblin with his tungsten-tipped intellect, come to skewer my analysis.

            Only you got to the end of your second magisterial paragraph and, as before, all you have provided is a bunch of words. No bones, no geology, no ice cores, nothing, just flatulent words.

            Evolution has clearly given you a brain. Why don’t you point it somewhere useful?

          • JabbaPapa

            Can you please explain to us how to transmit a bone to you over the internet ?

            Will this do ? http://cx.aos.ask.com/question/aq/700px-394px/longest-bone-human-body_6f2bbcf2f2ce4ca1.jpg

            hmmmmmm, not sure how to provide you with “geology” — not sure how to fit it into a standard parcel.

          • GoJebus

            Oh f@ck me. More words from the vacuum salesman.

          • hobspawn

            The argument is about what you consider bones, geology and ice cores to be evidence of.

            I studied Physics at university and did several modules on scientific methodology, including the theories of Bayes, Russell, Quine, Popper, Lakatos, Kuhn, Feyerabend, Nozick, Chomski, to name a few. I don’t need more lectures about what science is and isn’t from a dogmatist, thanks.

          • hobspawn

            The argument is about what you consider bones, geology and ice cores to be evidence of.

            I studied Physics at university and did several modules on scientific methodology, including the theories of Bayes, Russell, Quine, Popper, Lakatos, Kuhn, Feyerabend, Nozick, Chomski, to name a few. I don’t need more lectures about what science is and isn’t from a dogmatist, thanks.

          • JabbaPapa

            Good for you — not even many scientists study the methodology itself as a distinct subject, instead just studying the particular methodologies that are relevant to their particular body of Science and its sub-disciplines.

          • hobspawn

            Yes, but most real scientists are a lot more humble about the fidelity of current theory than GoJebus and the faithful cohorts of militant atheist Dawks. Real scientists often have strong belief that some pillar of science is wrong. Einstein and Copernicus, for example.

          • Giuseppe Cappa

            Regrettably many people, including many employed in the research business, do not know that science relies on several metaphysical assumptions that are not scientifically verifiable. Natural Theology addresses theism from the rational and metaphysical point of view. Our dogmatic opponent GJ unfortunately has no clue about what science is; I patiently explained him some Natural Theology arguments, providing references, and I got only insults as a reply. An ancient Chinese proverb says: “Do not try and teach philosophy to a pig: you will waste your time and also annoy the pig”. From now on I will always keep in mind such ancient wisdom.

          • JabbaPapa

            the onus is on you to provide the evidence

            How can I do that without knowing the criteria for the evidence that would be acceptable to you ? It is basic scientific methodology to determine in advance exactly what it is than one will be testing as evidence.

            All you’ve provided so far is that you’ll refuse to accept all of the standard evidence of God as “evidence” — so, what type of evidence **would** you accept ?

            I assert that the Flying Spaghetti Monster … is a moronic atheist cliché with exactly NO value whatsoever.

            FTFY

          • Giuseppe Cappa

            Your mocking attitude seems to be driven by irrational feelings. However, I try to summarise a few concepts for you. What you call evidence is experimental evidence (fossils, measurements, experiments etc.); in order to reason on that you need to make several metaphysical assumptions that are *not* verifiable by experiments: for instance: (1) the world exists and is not a dream; (2) physical laws do not change arbitrarily with space or time; (3) we have free will to establish local conditions for experiments; (4) by using reason we draw correct conclusions about reality, that is, reason is not a feature humans have developed to deceit themselves so as to feel better. If you reason for instance on Creation, i.e. on the whole time-space reality, you cannot rely on experimental evidence at all because you are in the realm of metaphysics. The very assertion “only experimental evidence provides knowledge” is self-denying because it cannot rely on experimental evidence. Now, for positive arguments based on facts and reason regarding the existence of God, you might want to check the literature, which you seem to ignore, on the cosmological argument (e.g. in works by Richard Taylor), the teleological argument and the moral argument. The ontological argument in its contemporary version (e.g. by Richard Swinburne) is more of a divertissement and it is a bit tricky, but you might want to have a look at it. Of course faith can also come from personal experience and revelation, and I do encourage you to look into yourself (“in interiore homine habitat Veritas” wrote St Augustine); however you should bear in mind that there are as well rational arguments for faith that are well in accordance with science. Many of the greatest scientists were believers and even inspired by their faith (see Louis-Augustine Cauchy or Newton, for example).

          • GoJebus

            Spare me the pseudo science bollox.

            I would add, “in interiore homine habitat fabrications”. You still haven’t provided any evidence for a deity but simply asserted that there is one, so based on the freedoms you’ve bestowed on me above I reveal to you a new God. You can call me a prophet if you like.

            The new God is called Bool Sheet and he came to prominence about 2000 years ago. Prior to that he was unheard of for some reason.

            There is as much evidence for Bool Sheet as there is for your God.

          • Giuseppe Cappa

            You are so thick in your insulting attitude that you haven’t understood the notion of evidence, nor have you noticed that I have provided you clear references to evidence in the relevant literature. With this I end this useless exchange.

          • GoJebus

            Not ‘THE’ notion of evidence. ‘YOUR’ notion of evidence. You expect people to believe in something just because someone says it’s true – with no evidence in the accepted sense of the word. Not bl@ody good enough Cappa. Not good enough for any court in England and not good enough for me.

            You cannot deny the existence of Bool Sheet if you allow the existence of your monstrous deity.

          • JabbaPapa

            You cannot deny the existence of Bool Sheet if you allow the existence of your monstrous deity

            You’re not very good at this “reasoning” thing, are you.

            The trite clichés of atheist mind games are worthless.

            God is not demonstrated not to exist on the basis of your zero evidence claims to that effect.

            You cannot claim that testimony by 3rd parties is worthless when it suits you, and then expect that the claims of 3rd party atheists such as yourself are to magically be taken more seriously.

            And witness testimony is OF COURSE “good enough” for Courts of Law.

          • GoJebus

            Not by itself it’s not Tomas (witness testimony), normally we like to have the murder weapon or a set of fingerprints, or some CCTV.

            I like to keep it trite. For as I’ve said before, the pious, especially the brainwashed-as-a-child, Judeo-Christian pious, like to introduce pseudo-scientific smoke and mirrors into debates and give the impression that there is some kind of equivalence between their theology and proper science. There isn’t. Boil off the wacko-froth and you are left with…nothing.

            The pious ‘claim’ that we were all made by baby Jesus (born of Maria, the virgin mum, engendered via a never before seen or seen again parthenogenesis in humans), the son of God, or part of God, or one and the same as God, or maybe by just God by himself. I lose track.

            But hey, who cares: blessed are they stupid enough to believe such garbage without evidence.

          • JabbaPapa

            Not by itself it’s not Tomas (witness testimony), normally we like to have the murder weapon or a set of fingerprints, or some CCTV

            This claim is a synonym of the fact that you’ve not the foggiest idea what you’re talking about.

            he brainwashed-as-a-child, Judeo-Christian pious, like to introduce pseudo-scientific smoke and mirrors into debates and give the impression that there is some kind of equivalence between their theology and proper science

            In fact, it is only such indoctrinated atheists as yourself who pretend that theology is even trying to be science, in complete disregard of the FACT that they are ENTIRELY different subjects.

            via … parthenogenesis

            That is yet another atheist claim having nothing whatsoever to do with any actual Christianity.

          • GoJebus

            Not by itself it’s not Tomas (witness testimony), normally we like to have the murder weapon or a set of fingerprints, or some CCTV.

            I like to keep it trite. For as I’ve said before, the pious, especially the brainwashed-as-a-child, Judeo-Christian pious, like to introduce pseudo-scientific smoke and mirrors into debates and give the impression that there is some kind of equivalence between their theology and proper science. There isn’t. Boil off the wacko-froth and you are left with…nothing.

            The pious ‘claim’ that we were all made by baby Jesus (born of Maria, the virgin mum, engendered via a never before seen or seen again parthenogenesis in humans), the son of God, or part of God, or one and the same as God, or maybe by just God by himself. I lose track.

            But hey, who cares: blessed are they stupid enough to believe such garbage without evidence.

      • SunnyD

        thanks, and I guess I would hope you’re right about the quality of the level of education in catholic schools in comparison to today (I was at secondary from 88-92) – I was allowed the personal freedom not to be confirmed and despite it being compulsory to attend Mass, it was in my view a necessary evil, although not evil in the literal sense. I must admit when I saw you’d replied, I expected a scathing response, so thank you for tempering it. I think there is a place for religion in society, but when I read about certain faith schools and the way they increase segregation in society I think that more needs to be done to improve this and prevent further causes of fundamentalism and religious extremist views. That might mean throwing the baby out with the bath water, as we can’t appear to favour one over the other. But in any event, it’s certainly an issue I would like to see raised and discussed at state level – especially if it leads to a more detailed introspection of Islam and its teachings. If Catholicism can allow for personal interpretation and tolerance then why can’t Islam?

        • JabbaPapa

          when I saw you’d replied, I expected a scathing response

          I do not wish at all to scathe the unscatheworthy 🙂

          … and your remarks alluding to the less impressive qualities of much Catholic Education are most pertinent.

          I was only subjected to 4 years of the 1970s Kumbaya Katholicism educational programme, that I mostly extricated myself from — first year I simply didn’t have the French anyway, I refused to attend the religious education classes, no obligatory Mass except very occasionally, no indoctrination of any nature at all really, except for the normal educational kind — so that when (to my VERY great surprise) my Conversion happened, the Christianity came to me as fresh and new as it should be.

          The fundamentalism that actually annoys me most is the atheist fundamentalism ; very few doctrines are so intrinsically intolerant.

          • SunnyD

            ah yes, the militant atheism of the dawkins variety – never has such a subject provided me with so much mirth – in fact, the Speccie article on the book about dawkins late last year (it was about a vicar who put up dawkins when he was stuck broken down) and the comments that ensued gave me so many laugh out loud moments (I actually spat coffee across both my monitors) I have been coming back to browse these boards ever since…. you were the WiW, I believe? (and I obviously remember cos of your avatar ;))

          • JabbaPapa

            Yep. And the Man in Black (which I am IRL, as they say)

          • SunnyD

            awesome – I love it! it’s strange how the mind can trick a person’s thoughts when it has only a limited scope of vision (and visual “clues”)

          • JabbaPapa

            I only switched from JabbaPapa temporarily after some internet stalking.

          • SunnyD

            and I can guess by whom… in the words of Billy Idol: “Mony Mony”
            I’m an observant sort (tell me you get the reference?)

          • JabbaPapa

            Several of them — including my own brother 🙁 🙁 🙁

          • SunnyD

            was he seeking sanctimony? or was he being sanctimonious? nudge nudge

          • SunnyD

            I missed your kind opening comment, thank you 🙂 takes one to know one 🙂

    • hobspawn

      Doesn’t sound like you listened very hard at your Catholic school.

      Here’s a quick synopsis of the bits you seem to have missed:

      The New Testament is the official scripture of the Christian world. It is unambiguously pacifist. It is an account of the life, teachings, death, and resurrection of Jesus as told by witnesses. In it Jesus commands us to turn the other cheek when struck, and to refrain from throwing stones at sinners unless you are without sin. The Christian world has produced the most peaceful and prosperous culture in history, and is the part of the world which everybody wants to get to.

      The Koran is the official scripture of Islam. It is held to be the word of god, nothing less, dictated and written down, with no errors. It contains a plethora of commands from god to slaughter and enslave many groups including women, homosexuals, unbelievers and even other muslims. The word of god can not be changed, obviously. The part of the world where the barbarism commanded in the Koran is normal is the part that large numbers of people want to leave.

      While barbaric, the Koranic parts of the world are still not quite as bad as those which tried to implement socialism (Stalinist Russia, Maoist China, Pol Pot’s Cambodia &c.)

      Glad to be able to bring you up to date. Now please tell us more about your Jedi faith.

      • wasteman

        Racist

        • JabbaPapa

          I cannot see a single reference to ethnicity in that post.

          • wasteman

            Racist

          • Tom Cullem

            You might want to try expanding your vocabulary.

          • wasteman

            .Trolled.

          • JabbaPapa

            Are you claiming that you “trolled” yourself ?

          • wasteman

            The man who trolled the world

          • wasteman

            “Its gross, its racist!” – Ben Affleck

        • Tom Cullem

          Imbecile.

          • wasteman

            Racist.

          • Tom Cullem

            Moron.

          • wasteman

            Successfully trolled

          • wasteman

            Trolled.

        • colchar

          You need to learn the difference between ‘race’ and ‘religion’.

          • Foxy Loxy

            Presumably ‘Wasteman’ is being ironic. At least I hope that he is for his own sake.

          • wasteman

            Troll detected. Troll mode disengaged

          • wasteman

            Successfully trolled.

          • hobspawn

            OK – you got me 😉

        • hobspawn

          Neither muslim nor Jedi is a race.

        • Silverharp

          if you can convert into it and leave it , it cant be a race. Learn the difference moron and stop repeating soundbites in some lame attempt at social signaling

          • wasteman

            Haha trolled. You fell for the bait. Hook line and sinker

          • JabbaPapa

            crikey you’re a twit

          • JabbaPapa

            crikey you’re a twit

          • Silverharp

            given these formats I take comments at face value, its up to you to peg your humour so people can pick on any irony etc. its not for me to figure out who is poe’ing. so no I wasn’t trolled, your comment obviously lacked any clues that it was a clever and subversive. too many people make racism an issue with Islam.

          • wasteman

            Haha trolled. You fell for the bait. Hook line and sinker

      • GoJebus

        Unambiguously pacifist? You must have dozed off in Bible class
        Toadspawn. H ell and damnation is about as disgusting a threat you make
        to a tiny child, and the good old NT is full of it. “If anyone does not
        abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather
        them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned”. Great stuff.
        Peaceful my @rse!

        • hobspawn

          What figure of speech do you think “as a branch” indicates? Does that passage tell you or me to cast anyone out? Not at all. You need to take the time to understand what you read. Try reading it several times, really slowly, and then the sense may become clear. If not, I can’t help you.

          And yes, the New Testament is indeed unambiguously pacifist.

          • trekker2002

            The NT does counsel Christians to be pacifist but mainly because it reserves the right to vengeance and violence to God. Maybe you didn’t read the book of Revelation. However that didn’t stop Christians down the centuries doing very nasty things to those who were not Christians or the wrong sort of Christian once they has the power to do so and claiming the right to do so on grounds of defending the faith against unbelievers and heretics.

          • hobspawn

             “The NT does counsel Christians to be pacifist but mainly because it reserves the right to vengeance and violence to God. Maybe you didn’t read the book of Revelation. However that didn’t stop Christians down the centuries doing very nasty things to those who were not Christians or the wrong sort of Christian once they has the power to do so and claiming the right to do so on grounds of defending the faith against unbelievers and heretics.”

            1) So you accept that the scripture you cited doesn’t say what you tried to pretend it did.

            2) Christians believe that God is merciful, not vengeful. The evidence is all around us. After all, which of us has earned and continues to deserve his portfolio of privilege?

            3) “However that didn’t stop Christians down the centuries doing very nasty things to those who were not Christians or the wrong sort of Christian once they has the power to do so and claiming the right to do so on grounds of defending the faith against unbelievers and heretics.” First, do you have any idea how much more violence and cruelty would have been done without the exclusively pacifist teachings of Jesus? No, you do not. Secondly, the perpetrators of violent and cruel crimes were not Christians but imposters, for the simple reason that they were directly disobeying the very clear pacifist commands of Christ himself. You need to learn to identify the real Christians, and their remarkably benign influence of their world, and the fake Christians who stoop to the barbarity sanctioned by less enlightened doctrines.

            In brief, you don’t know what Christianity is and you don’t know what a Christian is. But it doesn’t take long to read the New Testament, and priests are always generous with their time if you need help, as we all do, with the more difficult scripture.

          • trekker2002

            ‘So you accept that the scripture you cited doesn’t say what you tried to pretend it did’
            You’ve completely lost me there. Go back and read what I said and try again.

            Christians believe God is merciful not vengeful. So you don’t believe any of the ‘vengeance is mine’ verses and large parts of the Old Testament then?

            3. Suggest you look up the ‘No True Scotsman’ fallacy since you are using it.
            Presumably the Pope was right and Donald Trump is not a Christian. Seems like quite a few evangelicals hold the same opinion about the Pope.

            Having been a Christian I can assure you that I do not what one is and have read the Bible (all of it). No need for help as I have now left the faith and am quite happy as an unbeliever.

          • hobspawn

             “‘So you accept that the scripture you cited doesn’t say what you tried to pretend it did’

            You’ve completely lost me there. Go back and read what I said and try again.”

            Sorry, mistook you for GoJebus.

            “‘Christians believe God is merciful not vengeful.’ So you don’t believe any of the ‘vengeance is mine’ verses and large parts of the Old Testament then?”

            No, I don’t. I’m a Christian. You might want to research the term ‘New Covenant’.

            “3. Suggest you look up the ‘No True Scotsman’ fallacy since you are using it.”

            You haven’t understood the ‘no true Scotsman’ fallacy. In the New Testament the teachings of Jesus are abundantly clear. When somebody does the opposite of what the Christian teaching says, you can’t claim that is a Christian act. Your definition of a Christian is anybody who claims to be. Mine is someone who follows the teachings of Christ as set out in the tradition of the church and the New Testament. You are saying some murderers were Christian. You’re just misusing the word. I have not redefined it.

            “Having been a Christian I can assure you that I do not what one is and have read the Bible (all of it). No need for help as I have now left the faith and am quite happy as an unbeliever.”

            Good for you, and good luck.

          • Zharf

            I know Christianity and Christians! They are barbarians under the guise of love. They have slaughtered more human beings of all faiths than any other faith in the world. Don’t forget the slave trade. Thousands were brought to Europe to serve the elite. Thousands died when they were being shipped to Europe in inhuman conditions. You have forgotten all about brutal Christian and Christianity.; but we have not. Bible is full of brutal punishment for transgressors. Christ said: I bring sword, not peace!

          • hobspawn

             “They have slaughtered more human beings of all faiths than any other faith in the world.”

            Citation?

            “Don’t forget the slave trade. Thousands were brought to Europe to serve the elite.”

            You might want to check the figures on that. Especially compare to (a) the scale of slave trading on African and Indian coasts before Europeans arrived, and (b) the proportion of African slaves sent to the Middle East Caliphates/Khanates. Shocking numbers, but slavery is portrayed as a European crime against blacks because they are the only ones who survived!

            The slave trade has existed since the dawn of humanity. Check the broken femur phenomenon in early human encampments (no refrigeration, so breaking captives’ legs kept them alive and provided fresh meat). It took Christians to abolish it, which they very nearly have.

            The brutality of nominal Christians in more brutal times than these is only understood in the context of those times. The result of Christian culture was the flourishing of democracy, industry, science, technology, and most of the privileges you take for granted today. Be careful what you wish for.

            Christ said “put away your swords”.

          • JabbaPapa

            Well you’ve definitely drunk the Kool Aid of atheist propaganda …

          • JabbaPapa

            They have slaughtered more human beings of all faiths than any other faith in the world

            Really ?

            http://www.bbc.com/news/world-30080914

            Jihadist attacks killed more than 5,000 people in just one month, an investigation by the BBC World Service and King’s College London has found

            In one month Jihadi Islam slaughtered more people than were sentenced to death in the entire 350 year History of the Inquisitions, bearing in mind that the vast majority of these death sentences were for such crimes as murder, rape, banditry, etc.

            As for the slave trade, it was condemned on multiple occasions by Christian leaders of all denominations, and the abolitionists who finally did away with it were in their vast majority motivated to oppose slavery by their Christian Faith.

          • The Patriarchy

            You are a fool.

            Why do repeat this nonsense? So people will feel sorry for you?

          • Mr B J Mann

            How many times Muslims invaded Europe vs. Europeans invaded Muslim countries?

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c7y2LRcf4kc

          • Mary Ann

            To be fair, the Muslims also practised slavery.

          • Mary Ann

            No one forgets the Spanish Inquisition.

          • trekker2002

            It wasn’t just the Spanish Inquisition Mary. I was only reading yesterday about the case of Thomas Aikenhead hanged for blasphemy in 1697 in Edinburgh and the fact that the last burning for heresy in the UK was in 1612. There were cases in other European countries much later than those, it wasn’t just Catholics who killed in the name of orthodoxy.

          • JabbaPapa

            In fact, that is a mostly non-Catholic activity.

            The Courts of the Inquisitions were Courts of Law, and the vast majority of accused who suffered the death penalty were guilty of such crimes as murder, rape, theft, banditry, child sexual abuse, etc etc.

          • GoJebus

            No it ain’t. Anyone who does not believe in baby Jesus goes to the furnace. Simply really.

          • hobspawn

            You are capable of greater intelligence than that.

          • GoJebus

            Possibly, but I don’t need to employ it for these arguments.

          • hobspawn

             “Possibly, but I don’t need to employ it [greater intelligence] for these arguments.”

            Clearly. 

          • GoJebus

            Only 1% of my faculties need to be engaged to counter religious piffle

          • JabbaPapa

            What, the same 1% that you use for everything else as well ?

          • GoJebus

            I don’t need 1% to defeat your theological dead ends. A dead fly on a string could do that.

      • Jacobi

        the New Testament is peaceful but not pacifist. Two quite different concepts.

      • Mary Ann
        • hobspawn

          So Matthew 5, 38-39 is wrong! The scale have fallen from my eyes!

          There’s none so blind as those who will not see. Good luck.

        • hobspawn

          So Matthew 5, 38-39 is wrong! The scale have fallen from my eyes!

          There’s none so blind as those who will not see. Good luck.

        • JabbaPapa

          So when are you going to start shutting yourself up out of sight for a week every time you commit some impure act ?

      • SunnyD

        hahaha – thanks, I needed a good read on a Monday morning.
        and thank you for the enlightening book review – you do realise the New Testament is a collection of books written by different people, who didn’t speak English and the tales of Jesus are also made up largely of parables, don’t you? The fact that I agree with Jesus’ example doesn’t mean I believe in God, nor does it mean that we should indoctrinate children at State level – in my opinion.
        I once read the Iliad and The Odyssey, both good reads (one reminiscent of the Old testament and one like the New, again IMO) and it struck me that at the time of writing, the Greeks may well have also thought the works and deeds written about and spoken of were also truly works and acts of gods and men. Now we know differently.
        It was also interesting to (edit) read your very intolerant view of the Koran, given that Mohammed believes that the Angel Gabriel gave him a lot of the info contained therein (although I totally get your abhorrence of the religion and culture as a whole) and therein lies the nub of the issue: Christianity (and you’re right on this score) DOES lend itself better to the modern age than does Islam (as is tenuously “proven” by your observation that the majority of the world want to live in the developed world) – I say “tenuously” cos it could be debated that the Islamic world is largely underdeveloped and the “Christian” / secular world is largely developed and the ongoing wars in the developing world could be the triggers for mass migration to the developed world…but I guess that would be another debate.
        oh, and I lied about putting Jedi on my census form, it was for comic relief (and to make a light hearted point).
        may the farce be with you 🙂

        • hobspawn

           “The fact that I agree with Jesus’ example doesn’t mean I believe in God…”

          Sorry, but Jesus did not leave you that option:
          John XX, 27-30:
          “My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand. I and my Father are one.”

          You can call him God made man, or just a madman. There is no middle way.

          • SunnyD

            sigh – I repeat “The fact that I agree with Jesus’ example doesn’t mean I believe in God”. In other words, the fact that I agree with his example, and that of the Buddha, the Dalai Lama, Yoda and indeed my mate Joe doesn’t mean I believe in the existence of God, as the Bible/Koran purport Him to be)
            tell me, what sounds the more likely to be true: man made God? or: God made man?
            be honest, not dogmatic.

          • hobspawn

            He claimed to be God. You “agree with his example”. You don’t believe in God. Do you see the problem now?

          • SunnyD

            he “claimed” to be God. I don’t believe he was God. I liked the way he went about his life though, to a certain degree. I also like the way Christopher Lee went about his life, yet I don’t honestly believe he was a rogue Jedi – I would ask if you see the problem, but I fear you are shortsighted

          • JabbaPapa

            He’s not short-sighted — you simply do not realise the radicality of the Lord’s words.

          • SunnyD

            I do realise the new way of thinking that Jesus (apparently) brought to the savages of his time (child-killing Kings and collaborative J3ws)and as mentioned earlier – I agree with a lot of his teachings and examples (turn the other cheek, yet he who is without sin…(put the stone down Mary!) and my favourite: “forgive them father for they know not what they do”) – none of this precludes me from not believing in God (as the Bible and Koran purports Him to be)

          • JabbaPapa

            Faith is a Gift, not a mind-game — you’re not that far from it, I think, and I’d suggest you simply stop confusing the unavoidable flaws of any religious practices with the Faith.

          • SunnyD

            fair comment – I am, after all, merely human and thus flawed – I certainly do understand the power of faith, even if I do disagree with what others believe

          • Grant Melville

            Have you studied the Bible? I mean studied it, not just picked up second-hand impressions of it, which is how far too many people think they know the scriptures. You had a Catholic education, so you must’ve undergone a certain amount of Bible scholarship. If you study the Bible – the New Testament primarily – you’ll see that Jesus stands alone. He cannot be compared with any other man that ever has been or ever will be.

          • SunnyD

            I have read and reread the Bible. Not studied it per se. But I have read it and have had copies of the gospels in my possession over the years too. At school we were made to observe all the feast days and attend mass weekly. Stand up, kneel down. Stand up. Kneel down. I was also in the choir.
            You may say that Jesus stands alone (or should that be stood?) and cannot be compared with any other man that has lived or will ever live. I would respectfully suggest a couple of things. 1: Jesus can be compared to Moses. Both highly influential figures of their respective times. Both had to deal with unruly members of a different faith (Judaism specifically) . 2: You cannot know of the men who have yet to be born (and let’s not forget that for many, the Messiah hasn’t yet arrived). 3: hubris. I personally find reticence to be more attractive a quality than “hey look at me, my dad’s better than your dad”
            – only a personal observation and no offence intended to you. I understand you revere Jesus, as you must understand that others don’t (despite my insistence that I admire his attitude)

          • hobspawn

             “Jesus can be compared to Moses. Both highly influential figures of their respective times.”

            Moses did not claim to be the God.

            That brings us back to John XX, and why you must see him either as a complete madman, or make the leap of faith and accept his word. Jesus did not leave open some sort of middle way. 

          • SunnyD

            I don’t HAVE to take a leap of faith, nor do I HAVE to call him names (madman indeed! – you’ll be asking me to call the J3ws of his time murdering bigots next!)
            I’m free to believe in whatever I choose to believe in. As are you.
            nice try though 🙂

          • hobspawn

            You have taken your own leaps of faith. For example, your faith in science, scientists and their alleged methods is… …no less quaint than mine.

          • SunnyD

            are you talking about the “quaint” allegedly scientific methods that have produced the very instruments you’re using to show your short-sightedness on here? not to mention all the other stuff that has enriched the developed (Christian?) world you alluded to earlier? …you know, the part of the world that the Islamic hordes you spoke of earlier are desperate to reach? the part of the world so enriched by Christianity (obviously science played just an itsy weeny little part, which obviously pales in comparison to Christianity’s multitude of contributions to modern society)? get a life – btw, I’m being paid to write these replies. I hope you are too?

          • hobspawn

            Don’t get me wrong, I’m a big fan of science. I happen to think that science flourished in the Christian world because of its Christianity, not in spite of it. But I think it a mistake to hold that science is adequate, true or complete. Science is a feeble first step into the void of the unknown. It falls a long way short of explaining our existence and its purpose, of informing us how we should think and live.

            My unpaid attentiveness is because I am bed-ridden, and I’m both glad and amazed that you’re being paid.

          • SunnyD

            “science is a feeble first step” – compared to the endless bounds you and Christianity have made (or will make?) – are you for real?
            I’m sorry I will be out of here soon, as I’ve rather enjoyed the distraction. I take it you are being devils advocate?
            (edit, I also get paid to go to the toilet – I’m at work as I write this if you hadn’t worked it out…) 😉 tongue firmly in cheek, your ever sunny D

          • hobspawn

            Christianity has had a huge beneficial influence on our law, our politics and the coherence of our society. I accept that appears to be waning.

            What is your view on Dark Matter, Dark Energy, and now Dark Flow? Did you ever see a more glaring suspect for ad hoc modifications to a falsified theory?

          • SunnyD

            possibly, but I’m about to shut down my computer for the day and leave the office – another time perhaps?

          • hobspawn

            It’s been a pleasure. Stay shallow and smugly irrational 😉

          • JabbaPapa

            I’m being paid to write these replies

            By whom ??? — self-confessed sockpuppets are rare on the ground, so I’m curious …

          • SunnyD

            sorry for the late response, and in case you hadn’t read it elsewhere, I was flippantly referring to the point that I’m typing as I work (cheeky, I know!) – hope Tuesday’s treating you well 🙂

          • SunnyD

            no, but he claimed to have had the commandments told to him (thus spake with God?) whilst up Sinai? close enough?

          • hobspawn

            No, quite different. “God gave me these” is nothing like “I am God”. “I am God” is such an astounding claim that you can not brush it aside as an endearing eccentricity.

          • SunnyD

            yes I can. I just did. You can tell me how to live my life and how to think till your fingers drop off, but it won’t make an iota of difference. If I were you, I’d pray for me instead. It’ll save your energies.
            Here’s a thought for you : what if God is actually reading these posts…do you think he’s gonna be pleased with the kind of language you’re using about your fellow man? talk of civil wars with other religious folk? aren’t you supposed to love thy neighbour? tsk tsk…. more picking and choosing what you want to believe eh? more narrow mindedness, eh? it’s a shame. I pity you

          • hobspawn

            Depends who you think is going to provoke that civil war. Traditionally Christians have been a bit equivocal on the subject of self-defence.

          • SunnyD

            obviously the fifth column (if my fears are real) will, but we’re digressing – dare I say, the flames of passion are dimming????
            I for one will be ready to fight on the side of the angels if the time comes (but you’re gonna tell me I can’t say such a thing aren’t you?)

          • hobspawn

            Is that you, Han?

          • JabbaPapa

            yes I can. I just did.

            No — if someone came up to you in the street and said the same, in fact insisted on it at great length, you’d be unlikely to think anything of the sort ; and if you just look at what the atheists in here typically spout out, they certainly don’t.

          • Grant Melville

            I would say, most definitely, that He stands alone, present tense. He is a living Man in heaven, with whom every believer in Him is brought into relationship. That’s one of the many things that mark Him out. There’ve been a large number of men and women throughout history who’ve been very powerful and influential, in the religious world and in general. All of them died, and people revere their memories and cherish their writings. Jesus died, broke the power of death, rose from the grave, and ascended above the highest heaven. Every religion in this world was established by someone who died – the believer in Jesus follows and knows a living Man.

            You compare Jesus with Moses, and there is something in that. The Old Testament speaks extensively about Christ. He is seen in what we call the ‘types’ of the Old Testament – things and persons which show some feature of Him. Moses displays typical features of Christ – he often forms half of a type with Aaron. We see the lordly side in Moses, and the priestly side in Aaron – those two characteristics, partially represented in the types, are fully realised in the Lord Jesus Himself.

            It’s true that I don’t know who’s yet to be born – and there might be some person who comes along in due time who does astonishing things. I know, however, with absolute certainty that they’ll never do what Jesus did.

            You find the quality of reticence appealing – so do I. What have I got to boast about? I’m just a poor sinner, saved by grace. I was taken up by God in the worth of Christ, not in anything I did or thought or said – or could ever do, think, or say. “For I know that in me, that is, in my flesh, good does not dwell…” (Romans 7 v 18). So, even if I wanted to be boastful, I couldn’t find anything to boast about. The scripture also says this: “But he that boasts, let him boast in the Lord.” (2 Corinthians 10 v 17). Now, although I find in myself naturally nothing whatsoever of merit, there is infinite scope for boasting in the Lord. If I’m saying, “Hey, look at me”, or drawing attention to myself – intentionally or unintentionally – then that’s no good at all. But if I can shout it out, for all the world to hear, “My Lord is the Lord – Wonderful, Counsellor, Mighty God, Father of Eternity, Prince of Peace…”, then He is magnified, and I go out of sight.
            ‘Christianity’ is not a religion. Christianity is features of Christ formed in believers by the work of the Holy Spirit, to God’s glory. Christianity isn’t a code or a creed, it’s something substantial seen in believers which testifies to a risen and ascended Christ.

          • JabbaPapa

            Now, I’m speaking carefully here because I’m not a Roman Catholic and I don’t want to be contentious

            Virtually nothing in your post is uncatholic, and the very little one could show would just be a nitpick.

          • Grant Melville

            I try to avoid contention wherever possible, because “a bondman of the Lord ought not to contend, but be gentle towards all…” (2 Timothy 2 v 24).

            Besides, some discussions are best had privately, as I’ve suggested here: https://thebowshot.wordpress.com/

          • JabbaPapa

            But He did so Himself — He came to us as one of us, suffering with us, doubting with us, praying with us.

            To say that he “cannot be compared with any other man” is to at least partially deny His humanity.

            He can be compared with any of us.

          • Grant Melville

            For me, He will always be the incomparable Christ. His many attributes are incomparable. Yes, He stooped into manhood and into death, but He remains incomparable. Until quite recently I referred to the Lord as unique, but that’s not quite accurate. You and I are unique, and so is everyone else in the world. He is outstanding. I know what you mean, that in His love and grace He came very near to us, “able to sympathise with our infirmities, but tempted in all things in like manner, sin apart.” (Hebrews 4 v 15). It’s the last part of the verse that sets Him apart. Sin apart. Who can be compared to that? He took on humanity, but not the sin condition.

          • hobspawn

            The Koran holds Jesus to be a prophet, not the God.

          • JabbaPapa

            … and yet the Muslims deny every central teaching in His prophecies.

          • SunnyD

            yawn, looking for similarities and not differences – is the difference between us two

          • hobspawn

            Unfortunately, the fallacy that the Koran is similar to the Bible is propelling my country towards civil war. Distinguishing the differences between an oasis and a mirage can be the difference between life and death. Your equalising goggles don’t make things equal.

          • SunnyD

            they do for me – inasmuch as I want them to.
            it’s called being a master of your own destiny

          • hobspawn

            Sorry, you still make no sense: he claimed to be God; you don’t believe he was God; you like the way he went about his life.

            There is a bizarre contradiction at the heart of what you are saying.

          • SunnyD

            I’m sorry you feel that way. we are at an impasse. let’s agree to disagree. I am used to being referred to as bizarre by friend and foe alike. I quite enjoy it.

          • hobspawn

            ‘Bizarre’ was a polite way of saying shallow and smugly irrational.

          • SunnyD

            thank you. if the cap fits….

          • SunnyD

            actually on second thought – I resemble that comment!

        • JabbaPapa

          who didn’t speak English

          /face-palm/

          • SunnyD

            I’m sure in my catholic education that the early scribes were greek (or at least wrote in greek) and English wasn’t really in written form popularly till the 7th century – I may be having a senior moment, but I’m sure the new testament’s “authors” (despite their English sounding names, Matt, Mark, Luke and good ol’ John) didn’t write the gospels in English. do you dispute that?

          • JabbaPapa

            No, but it’s irrelevant.

            One should ideally have at least enough Latin to read the Vulgate, or enough Greek to read the Septuagint and the NT (or &c.), but even if not so, the teaching of the Revelation is not constrained by language, but it is given to us in the Spirit of our need and our own intrinsic goodness as the creatures and the messengers of God towards the reality of His Creation for the Salvation of our Souls.

            We are divinely created.

          • SunnyD

            I am inclined to agree with your last sentence. I must admit the meat and potatoes of what you said have sailed far over my head. In any event, I’m happy to know that we are at cross purposes, albeit with no ill intention on my part. FYI – I consider myself a somewhat wayward Taoist. I’m experimenting with meditation, breathing, positive affirmation and anything else I can try out on a daily basis. I’m open to the idea that there is more to life and our place in it that we know, or perhaps can ever know. I love the mysteriousness of the mystery.
            In a similar way, I like to think “whatever next?” in a childishly excited way, rather than “whatever next?” in a worrisome nervous way. That’s my choice and the way I train myself to think.

          • JabbaPapa

            OK

            The current tendency towards a kind of “DIY Spirituality” is worrisome, because the Devil and the other evil spirits are spirits, but it is by no means helped by a certain lack of spiritual openness among the Faithful Christians, as they seem to confuse it all too often with some moral or other material or worldly concerns.

            What you describe is in the heart of Christian prayer, even if you may have forgotten it.

          • SunnyD

            I do see the similarities (even the NA groups I once attended espoused looking for the similarities and not the differences in each other and the different groups of AA and NA alike) and for that reason, I am one who is happy to coexist with religious believers. When religion leads my fellow man to lead good lives, I’m all for it (even if I do disagree with the technicalities of their beliefs).
            I take EVERYTHING with a pinch of salt and am of the mindset that if you look for the devil hard enough you’ll see his face in every picture on every wall…if you listen for him close enough you’ll hear his footsteps following you up the stairs… I exist to serve the light and am on the side of the angels (metaphorically speaking) I have seen evil and maybe even done evil and am safe enough from the clutches of the dark for now at least

          • JabbaPapa

            if you look for the devil hard enough you’ll see his face in every picture on every wall

            You haven’t met him, not knowingly anyway — but yes, that’s wise

    • Jackthesmilingblack

      You put “Jedi Knight” on that census form too?

      • SunnyD

        no, just Jedi. I have hubris to think of…

    • DonCamilletto

      Every SW film always involves a by-our-Lady great WAR in it with the goodie [Holy?] Jedis on one side and the baddie [Satanic?] on t’other. Miliions of casualties.
      Are you advocating a new multifaith approach then?
      Will the children in your area soon be writing letters extolling the benefits of Darthism?
      Only asking……

      • JabbaPapa

        How very dare you forget Jabbastantism !!!

      • SunnyD

        assuming you meant for a response… I most certainly am advocating a multi-faith approach… pretty much like what we currently have…. so no difference there then……..
        More to the point, Islam needs to be held under the microscope and reform has to happen… I have Muslim friends who aren’t extremists nor fundamentalists…and have been advised/told by one particular commenter on this forum that they aren’t being “true” Muslims (I think because they are what is termed as “moderate” because they don’ harbour murderous ideals).
        There exist in the Muslim population a large number of “moderates” – those who’ve chosen the more gentle bits of Islam and they need to be encouraged to raise their voices if Islam has any chance of surviving if the populations continue to intermingle.
        Back to the point in hand, and your last sentence…Religious Education needs to be taught in a better way, for as long as these religious beliefs are still practised in the world we live in. I strongly disagree, however, in religious schools like the ones I attended, like the ones local residents have objected to being built (I’m referring to Islamic schools, which appear to promote and continue Muslims’ apparent penchant for societal segregation)
        Broadly speaking, you raise an interesting observation about the SW storyline: that of goodies and baddies (light vs dark, good vs evil, etc.) – a more fitting comparison might be Anakin’s likeness to Jesus (immaculate conception)… More interesting still – I’ve read a series of books set (in old Star Wars canon, now defunct according to Disney) 25-odd years after “A New Hope” called “The New Jedi Order” in which the galaxy faces a dire threat from a race called the Yuuhan Vong.
        An extraglactic species that can’t be sensed through the Force, who abhor the traditional technology (i.e. droids, spacecraft, repulsorlifts, lightsabres, etc.) being used, aliens who prefer to employ biotechnology to do the same job (often with seemingly superior results) invade without warning – chaos, death and planetary conquest ensues…
        …the series gripped me as I read book by book about the decimation of the galaxy and the mass murders and ritual sacrifices made by “the Vong”. The similarities between Muslims and Christians and the concept of Holy War / Jihad are far too apparent and if you’re a SW fan and have the time, I would strongly urge you to pick up a copy of “Vector Prime” and let me know your thoughts.

        • DonCamilletto

          Can there be such a thing as a ‘moderate’ Jedi? [I’m assuming that by ‘moderate’ ypu mean all the little people who just want to get on with their lives in peace and be left alone – aka in war as ‘collateral damage’ and ‘subjugated’]

          I can see three interesting parallels to the SW storyline. The first was the struggle of the Jews against the Roman Empire [Bar Kokba]. This is distanced from those of us who are not Jewish.

          The other two are, however, much closer to home. In 600AD, most of the mediterraean world was ruled by a a corrupt, despotic but Christian Roman Empire. Out of nowhere came Islam with its ‘pure force’ determined to conquer and destroy it. For the next 800 years the battle lines were drawn. At the end of that time, Islam had largely succeeded. Over three quarters of ndentthe Roman world was theirs. For the next three centuries they tried to get the last bit, western Europe, but were stopped at the Gates of Vienna.

          Moving forward to today. A large corrupt, ‘decadent’ ‘Empire’ dominates the world – us, the West. We are citizens of it. A group of rebels called ISIS are fighting to destroy it.

          When we watch the films, presumably we root for Mr Ford [and Jabba, of course] but who d we root for in the real world?

          The Jedi are the protectors of the little people. So my question is ‘At what point do they fight?’ When the bombing starts? Or, as Mr Liddle points out, when they kick in your door to throw your dog off the roof?

          Actually, there is one massive difference between Christianity and Islam – the CS Lewis ‘trilemme.’ Was Jesus Who He claimed to be? Or, if He wasn’t, was He mad or bad?

          Islam tries to avoid the question by pretending it isn’t there – regrettably so do a lot of Christians – for the uncomfortable truth has to be that if Jesus is Who He said He is, then all other faiths fade away [evne, I’m afraid Jabbastantism!]

          • SunnyD

            you got me wrong, I was talking about “moderate” Muslims. Jedi, as you know, are fictional characters. Not trying to be trite, but I fear you’re going way off topic. Are you a SW fan? Have you read The New Jedi Order?

          • DonCamilletto

            No, more of a ‘trekkie’ really tho’ I have seen all the SW films and yes, the Jedi are fictional characters but there are many who identify with the ideals and philosophy that defines them.
            I wouldn’t say I was going ‘off topic’ My points are that:
            the comment that the jedi don’t/wouldn’t engage in a holy war is not born out by the films where they do little else.
            that ‘moderate’ of any persuasion are those who wish just to get on with their lives in peace
            that, although you might present the argument that there are ‘similarities between Christianity and Islam’ they are really quite superficial and do not address the fundamental point of difference, that either Jesus is Lord, Son of the Father or He isn’t.
            As far as I can see, that makes Christianity and Islam incapable of any synthesis.
            My final points are that, since its emergence, Islam has wanted to conquer the West and has been trying for 14 centuries. Today, it seems that it might succeed, not because of its own efforts, but through the vacuity of our leaders who fostered the pernicious ideologies of multi-faithism and multi-culturalism.

          • SunnyD

            I am in agreeance with your final statement. It makes me angry sometimes to think that the world our children’s children will grow up in may be forever different to that we and my parents knew. That is one of the main reasons I would like faith schools to be abolished. Religious freedom aside, schools and religion shouldn’t be intertwined so very closely. And Islam needs to be held up under a microscope, and awkward questions need to be asked of its advocates.

  • colchar

    So promoting Islam is now official policy? Dafuq is wrong with these people? And would they dare ask Muslim children (are there even any Muslims on Guernsey?) to participate in a similar exercise claiming that they had converted to Christianity?

    • Oddsbods

      Precisely

    • wasteman

      Muslim brotherhood lobby

  • Uusikaupunki

    Isn’t strange that a few weeks ago Guernsey refused to accept Syrian “refugees” using the excuse that the islanders were “Islamaphobic”!
    “Give me the child and I will give you the man”…hmmm..all it needs is time.

    • One of the Quiet Ones

      In reference to your quote –

      Yuri Bezmenov
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xFqShpJm_zc

      and all the other Soviet and KGB defectors in the past.

    • Mary Ann

      Perhaps the teachers are trying to do something about it.

    • paul.bastier

      Islam like the Catholic Church thinks it terms of centuries not decades. Islam also gives a very high priority to the religious education of children from the very earliest age. Saudi Arabia has spent billions on Wahhabi mosques and schools worldwide.

  • The Masked Marvel

    Try the Belgian Blues instead, Rod.

  • GoJebus

    It is fascinating to see how effective the Islamist persecution propaganda has been. Instead of Muslims apologising to us and undertaking to urgently reform their primitive and ugly religion, we instead have our liberal academics (too stupid to see the mistake) teaching our kids how to be more accommodating towards it. Sadiq Khan and Mehdi Hasan will approve

    • geyien

      I wonder how all the liberal luvvies living in London will react when Sadiq becomes mayor (through postal votes, naturally) and then insists on all London school kids writing “conversion to Islam” letters too? (Plus, of course, banning gay pride marches.)

  • Hippograd

    If the Board of Deputies are in favour of it, I’m sure it must be good for Britain.

  • Daniel Bright

    When I despair of the Guardian’s policy of appeasement to Islam[ic extremism] I am deeply heartened to see articles like this with content I used to write on Al Guardian’s Comment Islamic Friendly surahs.

    • hugh_36

      Don’t worry. There will always be a forum for anti-Semitic and Islamophobic garbage somewhere. I think you are amoung friends here

      • Daniel Bright

        Islamophobic absolutely. Islam isn’t working.
        Anti-Semitic never. Israel is the middle east’s best hope.

  • Crusty Bufton

    You mentioned Harrogate, how lovely of you.

  • Jacobi

    Opinion is increasingly determined by minorities using fear, that is making the vast majority afraid to express opinion lest they be castigated and called all sorts of nasty names. The minority in this case, a tiny minority, is the Islamophile “Luvvies”

    May I say that once we all grow up and introduce humane arrest, detention and internment of all Muslim religious immigrants, Guernsey, circa 30 sq km would be an ideal site for a stop-off internment centre on their way back to wherever they came from?

    • Mary Ann

      The government can hardly do that when they are letting them in, our Muslims don’t come from the EU, Cameron has refused to let them, ours come from the Middle East and the Commonwealth.

      • Jacobi

        At present,l Agreed. But the fact that you have expressed, that Muslims continue to flood into the UK legally, from outside of EU, the unmentionable in British politics will sooner or later be grasped. Reality will dawn.

      • http://www.ophiuchuscube.com/ Hendrik

        You should check the number of Somalis with the Dutch nationality that have immigrated to the UK over the last decade. You’ll be shocked.

    • hugh_36

      I can only assume you do not realise how totally insane your ideas are? I strong suggest, seriously, that you seek so,e sort of medical help before you do anything more stupid than post meaningless driven on websites.

  • Jackthesmilingblack

    “I have never been to Japan…”
    It must be so cramped in there … Your mind.
    Jack, the Japan Alps Brit

  • http://www.21stcenturybusinessentrepreneur.com/ Patrick Clarke

    And all this the same week as a Southampton schoolboy was reported to the Police and interviewed by Special Branch for accessing UKIP’s website whilst taking part in a classroom project on immigration by his teachers. Just google “Schoolboy questioned by police ‘after looking at UKIP website’. We are rapidly moving well beyond Political Correctness towards outright indoctrination, enforced by the state at every level.

    • Jacobi

      Tiny minorities are controlling this. Who are they?

      • http://www.21stcenturybusinessentrepreneur.com/ Patrick Clarke

        Rhetorical question, I assume? I think it stems from that 1960s mentality of wanting to do good and be liked but it’s been perverted into an ideology that has swept all before it. I never thought I’d say it but it almost needs a campaign of “McCarthyite” proportions to purge our institutions of this mentality.

        • Jacobi

          There is a more recent and specific phenomena. See refs., Spiral of Silence. Elisabeth Noelle-Neuman, and Wiki.

          • http://www.21stcenturybusinessentrepreneur.com/ Patrick Clarke

            A very interesting thesis on what has been happening, which has been accelerated by the development of Social Media where anyone stepping out of line is digitally shouted down by the herd mentality but it doesn’t say why that particular viewpoint (pro Migrant, pro EU, pro Open Borders, pro Green Issues, pro meddling in countries from Ukraine to Libya) has taken such a hold. Too many vested interests controlling things behind the scenes but they’re unleashing forces which will ultimately destroy even them – witness the attempts to steal the mobile phones and physical attacks on the gullible actor Jude Law’s entourage whilst visiting the Calais camps as one very small example and the rather larger example of the collapse of society in many parts of Sweden.

          • Jacobi

            The important thing is to realise that this phenomena exists. Minorities, usually tiny minorities, in a calculated and pre-planned way are dictating how public opinion is expressed. The weapon is fear – and these minorities have been successful.

            What we might call the ordinary, sensible, experienced man, from Sicily to Shetland, to Sweden is silent!

          • http://www.21stcenturybusinessentrepreneur.com/ Patrick Clarke

            Unfortunately this minority may be far larger than we care to admit to, as evidenced by the very high level of support for the online petition to ban Donald Trump from the UK and the negligible support for contrary petitions such as the one calling for Sharia Law to be banned.

            Hopefully the silent majority will prevail in the Referendum but it will probably be a far closer run thing than it ought to have been, considering that the case for leaving is so overwhelming.

      • BritishPatriot

        You know very well who they are, but lack the nerve to actually say it, even anonymously on the Internet. I’ll give you a clue: their name begins with “J”.

        • hugh_36

          Do you realise you are actually insane?

          • BritishPatriot

            A stunning and well-considered rebuttal. You truly are a master debater (even if you are a little slow).

        • Iamreplete

          What on earth have the Jesuits got to do with all of this?

    • BritishPatriot

      Just as well he didn’t view a real right-wing website as opposed to those spineless cuckservatives.

      • LittleRedRidingHood

        Are you talking about a real right wing site or an extreme far right wing site. The two seem to be regularly conflated.
        Remember the conservatives used to be right wing before they were castrated and turned into eunuchs.

  • Giuseppe Cappa

    The incipit on Japan is hilarious; however Japan, though too nihilist for me, is a civilised and very pleasant country. This said, had the students being invited to write about conversion to Christianity, the press would have been raging against the teacher. I guess the forced introduction of Islam in our education and media is due to the socialist totalitarian forces that are trying to destroy Christian religion and family (and with them society as a whole).

  • The Patriarchy

    Fascinating.

    I wonder if teachers on Guernsey are as useless as those in mainland Britain : a tribe of utter duffers who deliver the lowest standard of literacy, and the second lowest standard of numeracy, in the OECD. How quaint, though predictable, that these fools, unable to do their actual job, should busy themselves proselytizing for a such a barbarous superstition.

    Rod’s ‘letter home’ was a small masterpiece by the way.

    • hugh_36

      I don’t imagine you know many teachers but judging from your idiotic rant I think you need to

  • salfordsupporter

    But organised Jewry ( not the entire Jewish population) has been instrumental in promoting multi-culturalism and ‘race’ laws in European countries, whereby those who opposed mass immigration and wanted to peacefully resist it were often persecuted and oppressed.

    • JabbaPapa

      Thanks for the N@zi propaganda.

    • Bad Lad

      Who was?

  • JabbaPapa
    • BritishPatriot

      Of course not, because we naturally hold educated non-Muslim Britons to higher standards than Muslims because the latter can’t help themselves.

  • Richard Lutz

    Great article. Makes it clear that certain minorities (prone to killing people who offend them) now have special privileges in an increasing number of nations. Terrorism works. As for the “exercise”, it is a violation of the church and state principle if it was a state school.

    The “downside” of Islam that Mr Liddle alluded to might include the fact that the prophet Muhammad who founded Islam was a child molesting murderer who is held up by Muslims as the role model for all Muslim men, who created a de-facto Islamic state policed by his militia who drove out, enslaved or beheaded anyone who opposed them. All you need to know about Islam, which was designed to empower its founder and entrench the patriarchal social norms of medieval Arabia, is contained in one sentence in the Quran (9:29) which is deemed the word of Allah (God) that devout Muslims must obey: “Fight those who do not believe in Allah… until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection.”

    • Vuil

      “certain minorities”

      Do you mean the Mucking Fuslims?

    • Daniel Bright

      There is no church and state principle in the UK (or crown dependency of Guernsey presumably).

  • Dominico

    Its because of the brainwashing of our children that has been going of in these islands for the last 40 to 50 years. Is National Pride taught? Community Respect? No just more of the “Please roll over for any other nation and people but your own” These so-called teachers should be run out and sacked.

    • JabbaPapa

      I’ve never been to Guernsey, but as a long-term expat, Jersey, despite some overtly crass internationalism superficially, is one of the most British places I’ve been to since the ’70s — which is NOT to say that most of “the most British places” in question are elsewhere than on the mainland UK.

      Jersey is still the last place I’ve been to where I’ve bought a £1 pint using a £1 note after enjoying the local covered market, thriving local shops, excellent fish & chips, and civilised English friendliness as a matter of course rather than the exception. (though the religious life there seems somewhat diluted)

  • hugh_36

    If I was a Spectator editor reading these comments I’d be seriously concerned about the people reading the magazine and the views I was encouraging. Rod appears to relish it though.

    • Daniel Bright

      I’m sure the Islamic State is also concerned about the views it is encouraging. Be aware which side you are appeasing Hugh.

    • anka

      You mean the views of people concerned about thought police, freedom of speech, separation between state and religion and brainwashing?

    • Mike Christie

      Clickbait.

      • moshekerr

        Arabs are never Muslims. When non Arab peoples convert to Islam – the religion of the Arabs – then they become Muslims.

        • Mike Christie

          Arabs are never Muslims.

          And your reasoning is — ?

          • moshekerr

            Turks are not Arabs. Persians are not Arabs. Pakistanis are not Arabs. Three of many examples. Muslims – non Arabs which embrace the belief taught in the Koran: that Mohamed is the prophet and their is no God other than Allah. If a non Arab accepts this theology, then that non Arab becomes a Muslim. Mohamed was an Arab. Arabs who embrace the religion of Israel do not become Muslims, they remain being Arabs. Pakistani, Persians, and Turks, when they embraced the religious theology of Islam – they became Muslims not Arabs.

          • Mike Christie

            Turks are not Arabs. Persians are not Arabs. Pakistanis are not Arabs.

            Yes – but Arabs are Arabs. So what do you believe happens to Arabs who “embrace the belief taught in the Koran”? What do they become, “moshe”?

          • moshekerr

            Mohamed was an Arab and he remained an Arab.

          • Chas Grant

            You’re on a hiding to nothing with this one, Mike 🙂

  • plainsdrifter

    Amazing. You couldn’t make it up.

    The imbecility of political correctness has no limit.

    And with each passing year, the religion of Islam further discredits itself.

  • Jab

    Take a look at this.
    The following is a copy of an article written by Spanish writer Sebastian Vilar Rodrigez and published in a Spanish newspaper on January 15, 2011. It doesn’t take much imagination to extrapolate the message to the rest of Europe – and possibly to the rest of the world.

    The following article was published in a Spanish Newspaper in 2011:

    ” European Life Died In Auschwitz ”
    By Sebastian Vilar Rodrigez

    “I walked down the street in Barcelona and suddenly discovered a terrible truth – Europe died in Auschwitz … We killed six million Jews and replaced them with 20 million Muslims. In Auschwitz we burned a culture, thought, creativity, talent. We destroyed the chosen people, truly chosen, because they produced great and wonderful people who changed the world.

    The contribution of this people is felt in all areas of life: science, art, international trade, and above all, as the conscience of the world. These are the people we burned.

    And under the pretence of tolerance, and because we wanted to prove to ourselves that we were cured of the disease of racism, we opened our gates to 20 million Muslims, who brought us stupidity, ignorance, religious extremism and lack of tolerance, crime and poverty, due to an unwillingness to work and support their families with pride.

    They have blown up our trains and turned our beautiful Spanish cities into the third world, drowning in filth and crime. Shut up in the apartments they receive free from the government, they plan the murder and destruction of their naive hosts.

    And thus, in our misery, we have exchanged culture for fanatical hatred, creative skill for destructive skill, intelligence for backwardness and superstition. We have exchanged the pursuit of peace of the Jews of Europe and their talent for a better future for their children, their determined clinging to life because life is holy, for those who pursue death, for people consumed by the desire for death for themselves and others, for our children and theirs.

    What a terrible mistake was made by a miserable Europe!

    A lot of Americans have become so insulated from reality that they imagine America can suffer defeat without any inconvenience to themselves. Recently, the UK debated whether to remove The Holocaust from its school curriculum because it ‘offends’ the Muslim population which claims it never occurred. It is not removed as yet. However, this is a frightening portent of the fear that is gripping the world and how easily each country is giving in to it.

    It is now more than sixty years after the Second World War in Europe ended. This e-mail is being sent as a memorial chain, in memory of the six million Jews, twenty million Russians, ten million Christians, and nineteen-hundred Catholic priests who were ‘murdered, raped, burned, starved, beaten, experimented on and humiliated.’ Now, more than ever, with Iran, among others, claiming the Holocaust to be ‘a myth,’ it is imperative to make sure the world never forgets.

    This e-mail is intended to reach 400 million people. Please be a link in the memorial chain and help distribute this message around the world.

    How many years will it be before the attack on the ‘World Trade Centre’ ‘NEVER HAPPENED’because it offends some Muslim in the United States? If our Judeo-Christian heritage is offensive to Muslims, we sincerely invite them to pack up and move to Iran, Iraq, Syria or some other Muslim country.

    • Daniel Bright

      It is sad that Europe and Germany especially has chosen to atone for the holocaust by opening its arms to those that deny it happened. Hugh_36 demonstrates the policy of appeasement below. He wants to assault the reaction to rather than defend the attack from radical Islam.

    • BritishPatriot

      The article first appeared on the Spanish website Gentiuno, not a “Spanish Newspaper”, and there is no sign of “Sebastian Vilar Rodrigez” having ever written anything else, strongly suggesting that it’s actually a pseudonym.

      • Jab

        Thanks for the information, I was sent it by a Spanish friend.Maybe the writer was scared to be labelled racist !

  • Gerard

    Rod Liddle’s article states that no European would ever again dare to compare the ideology of Islam with that of the Nazis. I suggest that he reads Lydia Guirou’s essay “Je suis Marianne”. It is reported on in Belgium’s L’Echo de la Bourse on the 2nd March and headed ‘L’Islamisme c’est le Nazism du XX1 siècle”. Mme Guirou is a member of Les Republicains party – the French equivalent of our Conservatives. Maybe you might say that few members of a leading British political party would dare to go as far…. It is always ‘l’autre’ n’est pas Mr Liddle. The other guy is the whimp.

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