Features

Everything has gone right for the Eurosceptics. So why are they in crisis?

They are too divided and their campaigns too shambolic to seize this opportunity

6 February 2016

9:00 AM

6 February 2016

9:00 AM

Eurosceptics could hardly have asked for more favourable conditions for a referendum. After barely surviving a financial crisis, the European Union has been overwhelmed by an immigration crisis — one made much worse by its failure to control its own borders. The European Commission seems determined to make itself even more unpopular in Britain, and is considering whether VAT should be levied on food and children’s clothes. At a time of righteous anger at sweetheart tax deals for multinational corporations, the man who bears more responsibility for these than anyone else in Europe is its president, the former Prime Minister of Luxembourg, Jean-Claude Juncker.

Then came David Cameron’s renegotiation. After months in the kitchen, Cameron has come up with the political equivalent of nouvelle cuisine: a tiny, disappointing dish served up with a big fanfare. He has nothing, for example, on the Common Agricultural Policy, or the fisheries policy that has inflicted such misery on British seaside towns. When he proposed the referendum three years ago, he spoke of a fundamental recasting of Britain’s relationship with the EU. This has been abandoned. Donald Tusk, president of the EU Council, confirmed after unveiling the proposed deal that the principles of the EU would not be altered by it.

So this ought to be the moment of Eurosceptic triumph. Instead, the movement is in chaos. No national figure has emerged to make the case for leaving. There was, once, much talk of a Sir James Dyson type industrialist making the case for Britain to boldly break out on its own. But so far this has come to naught — and time is ticking by. Eurosceptics are, though, confident of securing the support of at least one cabinet minister who is not considered a usual suspect.

There are plenty of political figures involved in the ‘out’ campaign. But too many seem more interested in squabbling among themselves than in taking the fight to the ‘in’ campaign. Meanwhile the bookmakers and opinion polls give ‘in’ a clear lead. It has, on average, a six-point advantage and was ahead by 18 points in one recent telephone poll. These numbers are particularly dire when you consider that for the ‘change proposition’ in a referendum to win (‘out’ in this case), it normally needs to be ten points ahead before the campaign starts.

So David Cameron’s famous good luck has not yet run out. The absence of an undisputed big beast to front the campaign has made too many Eurosceptics think it ought to be them. Veterans believe that their time in the trenches entitles them to lead the charge. Those who enjoy the sound of their own voice believe that if only the country could hear them debate David Cameron on television then the scales would drop from the public’s eyes.

Meanwhile, many in Ukip see the referendum as more about advancing their own party’s interest than anything else. Nigel Farage’s party has been a distinctly mixed blessing for the Eurosceptic cause. To be sure, it is capable of speaking to voters in places where traditional, sovereignty-focused Euroscepticism has little purchase. It has yoked together immigration and the EU in the public’s mind. But the way it has done this has created problems. Many other respected public figures refuse to join in, or donate to, a campaign that is too Farage-dominated. Some in Ukip seem to relish this. They dream of being the Donald Trumps of British politics. Much of the tension between Douglas Carswell, Ukip’s only MP, and the party leader-ship is because the clique around Farage are more interested in using the referendum to boost support for Ukip at the next general election than they are in actually winning it. The theory goes that if Ukip is the only party campaigning to leave and its politicians dominate the campaign, then it could scoop up the ‘out’ vote at the next election — just as the SNP won the -support of nearly all ‘yes’ voters after its defeat in the Scottish referendum.

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There is an even bigger problem for the ‘out’ campaign though, which is that no one can picture what ‘out’ would look like. This is, of course, the beauty of Brexit: it would be down to Britain to decide the kind of -country it wanted to be. But to up-end the status quo, a risk-averse electorate needs some sort of vision of Britain’s future outside the EU.

There is no agreement about this between Eurosceptics. The disputes between policy experts as to which Brexit model is best -(Norway? Switzerland? Turkey? World Trade Organisation rules?) make the debates of the early church seem easy to follow.

In the Scottish referendum, Alex Salmond ultimately lost because he couldn’t give -voters a reassuring picture of what independence would mean. But even he had answers, albeit of dubious plausibility. This underlines one of Euroscepticism’s great strategic mistakes: to prioritise the referendum without first working out how to win it. The referendum became the focus because it was the lowest common denominator: Eurosceptics of whatever stripe could agree that the public should have their say. But it was always going to be harder to win a straight in/out vote than a referendum on an individual treaty. As the Danes, the Irish, the Dutch, and the French have all demonstrated, individual treaties can be rejected without any danger. Indeed, the EU often comes back with concessions afterwards. But an in/out vote seems a different matter, a binary choice. That’s why the arch- Europhile Peter Mandelson has been so keen on an in/out vote for so long. (One suspects, though, that Brussels would return almost immediately with a slew of concessions if Britain did vote to leave in this referendum.)

Since Cameron returned to office, Eurosceptics have concentrated their energies on pressuring him to let his ministers campaign for ‘out’. The hope was that this would lead to a flood of cabinet members doing so. Instead, it has been a trickle — and Downing Street radiates confidence that only four or five members of the cabinet will ultimately go against the Prime Minister: Iain Duncan Smith, Chris Grayling, Theresa Villiers, John Whittingdale and Priti Patel. Theresa May, who would have been the biggest -cabinet catch for ‘out’, has indicated that she will back staying in, and in the struggle between Michael Gove’s Eurosceptic convictions and his personal dislike of upsetting Cameron and Osborne, the latter is currently on top.

In the end, the suspension of collective responsibility has actually helped Cameron. He can pretend he’s been broad-minded while stopping the other lot from campaigning, because the ministers’ licence to disagree only begins once the deal has been signed off at the EU Council in two weeks. Between now and then, the Prime Minister will be busy selling his deal to the public and getting FTSE chief executives to back it.

Even when ministers are freed to campaign, they will be constrained by the fact that they are still members of the government. One cabinet member, an ‘out’er, is mulling a code of conduct for ministers: no debating each other directly, no impugning of the Prime Minister’s integrity and no personal attacks. This ‘play nicely’ manifesto will make it that much easier to put the Tory party back together again after the referendum. But, as another cabinet ‘out’er complains, it would also mean that Cameron’s side could keep many sceptics off the air just by putting up a minister themselves.

The Prime Minister should enjoy his position of relative power while it still lasts. Should Britain vote to remain in the EU, its position in Brussels will be far weaker. Gone will be the leverage that came from the sense that this country was only ever a summit or two from storming out. No longer will British prime ministers be able to object to proposals by saying that their Eurosceptic electorate simply won’t wear it. Come off it, EU leaders and Eurocrats will say: your country has just voted to stay in the EU, warts and all. Britain’s bluff will have been called.

Compounding this problem will be that the rest of Europe will feel that Britain owes it one — that they have helped Cameron out with his little local difficulty and now want something in return. Already, ministers in other EU governments are planning to call in some favours. One has already made clear to The Spectator that once this referendum is done, Britain will be expected to take in our ‘share’ of the hundreds of thousands of refugees waiting to be settled in Europe.

The renegotiation has laid bare just how much sovereignty has already been handed over. It was hard not to feel one’s hackles rising as Cameron crisscrossed Europe trying to get permission for his welfare changes. Do we really want the Hungarian prime minister Viktor Orban, who holds distinctly unsavoury views, deciding what Britain can and cannot do with its benefits system? The renegotiation leaves untouched many of the EU policies that have done the most harm. The Common Agricultural Policy is not only inefficient but immoral, hurting farmers in some of the poorest countries in the world. The EU financial merry-go-round is still intact, too. Britain will still send money to the EU, only for Brussels to then send some of it back to this country’s poorest regions.

The paucity of the case for staying in is illustrated by the quality of some of the arguments that the ‘in’ campaign has been making in recent weeks. They reflect a bread-and-circuses mentality that would make a Roman aedile blush. We have been told that the quality of Premier League football would decline if we left the EU because European players wouldn’t be able to get work permits and that we will only be able to watch iPlayer abroad if we stay in the EU. More seriously, voters have been told that the average consumer saves £450 a year because of the EU — a claim that can be sourced to an American study of how prices have been kept down by globalisation.

The arguments for Brexit are all there, waiting for someone persuasive to marshal them. Events could also intervene. Cameron and Osborne are so keen to get this vote over as soon as possible because both know how volatile the situation is. A repeat of last summer’s migrant crisis, another ‘Cologne’ or the eurozone going to the brink again could sway public opinion towards quitting the EU.

Yet at the moment Britain is sleepwalking into an ever more centralised EU, and the painful truth is that Euroscepticism is not ready for the confrontation that it has so long agitated for. With the government intent on a June referendum, the ‘out’ campaign will have a few months to do the work of years. If it cannot do that, then Britain will stay in the European Union. More than that, voters will have ratified the transformation from the European Economic Community that we joined in 1973 to the imperial institution that the European Union is today.

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Show comments
  • Mongo

    “Britain will be expected to take in our ‘share’ of the hundreds of thousands of refugees waiting to be settled in Europe”.
    ———————————————————–

    haven’t we already?

    • Andrew Cole

      No because we’ve been assisting lots of other countries in making their populations smaller so there should be plenty of room left over there.

  • horserider

    Not only is there no Brexit plan, the Eurosceptics haven’t even prepared the ground! No one has been in the WTO talking to its other members about what might be the priority FTAs to be agreed, how they would benefit the UK, what sectors, the upside in trade revenues etc

    Amateur hour.

    • sandy winder

      The alternative is to stay in a proven failing club of disparate members who do not trust each other. I would rather jump out of a sinking ship and hope for the best rather than hide under a bunk and accept the captain’s plea that all we be ok if we move the deckchairs round a bit.

      Crazy hour.

      • horserider

        Failing? Living standards well in excess of the UK. Quality of life well in excess. Workplace productivity, you get the drift. If that’s failing, I wouldn’t mind.

        • Mongo

          which European countries have living standards/quality of life well in excess of ours? Only a handful.

          And even those that do, such as Sweden, are seeing their own living standards rapidly diminishing

        • mike53

          Go tell that to the people of Spain, Italy and Greece.

        • Cyril Sneer

          Do you still think there is no Brexit plan?

        • Toby Esterhase

          Name them, please?

          (In excess of what?

          (Another paid lackey, I suspect)

    • Frankfurt 13
    • Andrew Cole

      Do you really think that civil servants haven’t been working on a Brexit plan should the right result be achieved?

      They will have been working on it for ages, they aren’t just relying on a remain vote. Even as complacent as people think our governments are this will have been and still be in progress.

    • Cyril Sneer

      You could try doing some research first. It helps.

    • Toby Esterhase

      How spectacularly foolish you look.

      Cretin’s hour, more like. Here, it’s free:

      http://www.eureferendum.com/documents/flexcit.pdf

  • sandy winder

    Why should we take in more ‘refugees’ when we take in hundreds of thousands of ‘refugees’ from East Europe every year?

    • Andrew Cole

      Exactly. They should have loads of room now.

  • Mongo

    regaining our sovereignty, democracy, power, autonomy and border controls V. being able to watch BBC iPlayer outside Europe…..

    the agony of choice

  • 9sqn

    Jon Snow on Channel 4 the other night, in a counter argument to a wonderfully articulate Daniel Hannah, minister for Europe in his dismissing Cameron’s sham, was lauding how Great Britain led the EU In the argument for gay marriage. This apparently was evidence that GB has influence at the heart of the EU. Also presumably the strongest argument he could think of for losing our position as a sovereign nation.

    • Shazza

      I don’t think gay marriage will last for too long once the growing moslem demograph becomes the majority and via our own democracy, legitimately assumes power.

      Current moslem population circa 5% and historical evidence shows this doubles every decade. This does not take into account emigration of indigenous British people who have read the writing on the wall and Mrs Merkel’s new soon to have German passports residents deciding to take up legitimate residence here.

      As our friends across the pond say ‘do the math’.

    • 3aple

      I used to love Snow and Channel 4 News, believing it the best broadcast news I could find. For years, however, its been nothing but a magazine programme for social justice warriors. I never watch it now.
      .

      • Lady Magdalene

        Same here. It’s little more than left-wing propaganda these days.

      • Toby Esterhase

        Brilliant summary, good SIr! Same here.

  • misomiso

    Great Article James

    One quibble – i think it’s worth noting one thing, that Political Opposition is SO HARD. Yes you are right that the sceptics have only themselves to blame, but when you are in power you have a good political operation that is tried and tested, and you can use your power to divide your opponents.

    And the Eurosceptics aren’t even unified, or have a good voice in Parliament.

    A tragedy, but not all of the Eurosceptics making.

    • misomiso

      Also, you never ask the question Why Cameron is in favour of membership – it’s because this faction in the Tory party that Cameron comes from has their whole political legacy staked on the EU project; if we leave then they lose EVERYTHING, and mentally they can not cope with this.

      So they put us second to their own political legacy.

  • Richard Lally

    Background: I am Anglo-Irish. I have lived in Paris and Brussels. I have worked in 8 European countries. In the 90’s I regularly had 6 currencies on me to travel around an area less than half the size of the USA.

    I have also worked in the Far East – if you had you would know that the differences between the countries of Europe are trivial when compared to the differences between Europe and the rest of the world.

    I consider European civilization, as bequeathed to us by the Greco-Romans, to be the pinnacle of human achievement and I believe that the human race desperately needs Europe to have a strong voice against the Chinese and others.

    I feel embarrassed to be in the company of all you small-minded jingoistic Spectator readers. (On every subject other than Europe Spectator articles are usually sensible and well argued). You are all like spoiled children – if you don’t always get your own way you don’t want to play.

    I sometimes think the EU should kick England (but not Scotland) out for being so miserably mean, backward-looking and negative! I know however that my friends and colleagues in Belgium, Holland and Denmark would be very disappointed to see us leave them to the mercy of the Franco-German axis. The sensible Scots would be fed up with us too.

    • Mongo

      if you consider European civilization to be the pinnacle of human achievment then surely you can see that that achievment is being rapidly eroded and jeopardized by the EU project and its misguided, ill-concieved policies?

      • Blindsideflanker

        He is a little selfish, for he bemoans having to have different currencies when travelling across Europe in the past, but now he has the Euro, he doesn’t care about the economic wreckage the Euro has left across those nations. As long as he doesn’t have to worry about different nations currencies he’s all right jack.

    • Frankfurt 13

      Another person who likes to pretend that Europe and the EU are the same thing.
      Here’s a little tip to help you remember;
      If Europe was football then the EU would be FIFA.

      • Toby Esterhase

        Perfect. Utterly corrupt, woefully ineffective and just, basically, not needed. Like it!

    • e2toe4

      I get all that but I have always been very interested in politics and one of the biggest factors for me—outwith all the 0.7% £5Bliion up, down or whatever…has been the fact that in 1975 we did vote on the basis of getting into a European Common Market or separate countries.

      But since then the EU bureacracy, co-opting down the years much of our own bureaucratic set up, has pushed a stealth policy of ever closer union which is clearly designed to create a European giant state.

      The flaws in the project have largely arisen because it HAS been a stealth project, afraid to *speak it’s name* openly. So instead of openly selling the idea to all us poor saps in all the countries involved the project has involved putting so many carts before that horse that we have reached a stage where the cart isn’t moving forward anymore.

      Open borders and a common currency should follow the acceptance of the idea of a single state– as a common currency automatically involves further and deeper integration of fiscal and taxation areas, themselves un able to function without single political control.

      An organisation in which nobody can ever leave is not an open, confident, democratic organisation.

      And much as I have enjoyed travelling without having to change money I can see that Greece, especially but not only, is paying a fearful price for being part of that.

      The real nature of the project has in fact only been articulated openly in response to existential crises that the botched structure has proved incapable of meeting. Initaially the Euro crisis and now the migrant one…a next one could very well be Russian pressure on outlying states in the East.

      The failure to articulate the real drivers behind the European project and the decades long lack of any democratic accountability is the main reason I feel less inclined to stay in than leave…. the idea that we are all civilised Europeans who may be parking democracy for a few decades in order to pursue the greater good, but will always basiclaly cleave towards openness and transparency, requires a boat load of faith to believe in.

      The 20th century showed what happens when means and ends are fudged, and principles parked *temporarily* by those men and women of the world convinced they know better than the ordinary people.

      The way it is now we aren’t building a beacon of Graeco-Roman civilisation but another China…. once upon a time (and still) China saw itself as the pinnacle of a civilised tradition washed at by lesser nations, peoples and philiosophies.

      Look what they had to go through to create their super state…look what they created.

    • Blindsideflanker

      “Europe to have a strong voice against the Chinese and others.”

      What a xenophobic little EU-ite you are. The EU fanatics like to portray the rest of us as ‘little Englanders’ , but really they are the ones who want to hide from the world.

      • Mongo

        He revealed his true nature in the final paragraph – another SNP fanatic!

      • Toby Esterhase

        5 years ago on BBC Radio 4, they said that the EU does more trade with Switzerland than China.

        The depths of ignorance of these people knows no bounds.

    • hereward

      What is your big minded take on mass immigration (invasion) and the £180 billion per annum cost of EU membership to Britain ? Look at the big picture not just the bits that suit you .

    • William Matthews

      You seem to be confused. If Britain decides to leave the European Union, it is merely a political arrangement. France, Germany, Poland, et cetera, will still physically be there. As will their populations, their businesses and their culture. I will still be able to go to France on Holiday, and England will not be one inch closer or further away geographically. Neither will French art, society, music, cuisine. Europe and Britain are inextricably linked. This existed long before the European Union and will continue long after.

      Europe however is a collection of very different countries and peoples. Who knows Spain better than the Spaniards? Italy better than the Italians? France better than the French? What right does the rest of Europe have to dictate to the Spanish how they run their country? Do the British or Dutch know better than the Greeks on how their country should be run? What’s best for their industries? The idiosyncrasies of their culture? No. Of cause not.

      And why should the rest of Europe suffer because of the mistakes of another sovereign state? Germany invited 1.1 millions immigrants into its country. Something many Germans seem to now regret. Why should France, Holland, Britain and 23 other countries share the burden of a mistake made by Germany’s democratically elected leaders, that the other 26 countries had no say in? I didn’t vote for Angele Merkel, and neither did you. Why must we soak up her poor judgement?

      Europe should be friends, we should trade, we should be able to enjoy the benefits of our close geographic locality, but we always have. Long before and long after the EU.

    • Chingford Man

      No one gives a toss about your background, where you have lived or what you have done, so clear off and stop being so flipping pompous.

    • Cyril Sneer

      So you’ve travelled, so keep travelling… elsewhere.

    • http://kebabville.blogspot.co.uk/ joe slater

      I too have lived extensively in mainland Europe and the Far East. And, unlike you, I have learnt to distinguish between Europe, a great civilisation and a great place to live, and the EU, an unaccountable mafia of political extremists who are

    • milford

      You’d know all about being spoiled. One of the most indulged and self-indulgent group of people on the face of the earth calling others spoiled is laughable. As for being mean you’d know about that too. It was your ilk that sent ships full of food to sail out of Irish ports to be sold abroad while the population of Ireland ate grass on the roads, where you’d left them to die after evicting them from the hovels you’d reduced them into living in. I don’t have time to list the litany of cruelty your people unleashed upon the Irish, but suffice to say you’re in no position to be derisive about people wanting home rule because you’ve got form on that point as well.

    • WhoStoleTyke

      Bravo, that man! This is the kind of response we “inners” should be making more forcefully, not allowing eurosceptics to get away with lying as an art form.

      • Toby Esterhase

        Yes, complete ignorance of politics, history and economics will do the Remainers a power of good.

    • Toby Esterhase

      How spectacularly ignorant of recent history, geopolitics and economics.

      Many of us have travelled extensively, so what? Are you saying this to show off?

      Different currencies? Yes, and languages, customs, cultures, histories and outlooks. You want to destroy all this just so you can keep the same currency as you swan around “Europe?

      Every paragraph starts with “I” – speaks volumes. Nothing but self-interest, and wildly uninformed self-interests at that.

      “The sensible Scots would be fed up with us too.” Speak for your obnoxious self.

      The Scots put the racist, anti-English SNP in govt., who based their entire budget and economic model after independence on the price of North Sea oil. How’s that going for the “sensible Scots” now?

    • Conway

      Background: I’m English, but I’ve lived and studied abroad. I feel embarrassed to be in the company of those of you small-minded people who think that the UK can’t be independent and needs to be a region in an undemocratic superstate. I wish the EU would kick the UK out, although I know they won’t because they want our money, despite the fact that Anglo-Saxon is a pejorative term abroad. We don’t fit, we’ve never fitted because we aren’t continental and we have a different history, culture and legal system.

  • Renidrag

    I would have though the obvious leader of the Brexit campaign is Daniel Hannan. He has the oratory and command of subject.

    • e2toe4

      DH and JR Mogg… with *My name is * Michael Caine — ? May not win the referendum, but wouldn’t lose the argument.

    • JabbaTheCat

      Lolz…if you think Hannan has command of this subject then you are somewhat clueless yourself…

      • Renidrag

        Sounds fairly knowledgeable to me https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ndww1pKILc

        • JabbaTheCat
          • Toby Esterhase

            Always worth a repeat :-)

          • big

            The Bradford echo chamber!

          • Toby Esterhase

            Can’t wait to read your detailed UK exit strategy.

            I’m thinking it might be a while as you seem to be stuck on Peter Rabbit, judging by your posts.

          • big

            Toby you don’t get it do you,poor luv,there is no exit strategy .

          • Toby Esterhase

            Dear God. You must have been dropped on your head as a child. Repeatedly.

            But be warned, it’s 417 pages with some very big words in it:

            http://www.eureferendum.com/documents/flexcit.pdf

          • big

            Toby flexcit should be available on the NHS for people who have problems sleeping.

          • Toby Esterhase

            Translated: ‘It’s too big and i don’t understand any of it!’

          • big

            I do feel sorry for you Toby, flexcit the work of angry, amateur blogs, not good enough to win the brexit competition. Is it peer reviewed? no! I can’t account for your low level of critical thinking,but if you’re happy……..

          • big

            Toby flexcit should be available on the NHS for people with sleeping problems

          • big

            snores zzzzzzzzzz

        • JabbaTheCat

          Here’s a good place to start, by someone who actually does have a deep understanding of the subject, and you will soon discover how shallow, and I would suggest dishonest, Hannan actually is…
          http://www.eureferendum.com/results.aspx?keyword=hannan

          • big

            Ah! another Northist cult member, i claim my £10,two in one night who would’ve thunk it!

    • milford

      I like Hannan but he’s too posh for most voters, I would imagine. Same with JR Mogg.
      They’d be entertaining but would put voters off with their upper class nasal tone. In any case, the vote will be rigged, as is the case these days. It’ll be: ‘Remain wins by 100 votes’. Like Clinton winning the other day, apparently they tossed a coin which decided in her favour because the vote was so close with Sanders. You couldn’t make it up. We are living in a post-democratic post-industrial society.

      • Renidrag

        “Too posh”. I wasn’t expecting that! I didn’t know there were Spectator readers who would bother about an accent. I take your point about rigged though.

    • Andrew Cole

      Much as I agree with Daniel Hannan’s direction he would be much more of a vote loser than Farage. Farage might not be popular but he is able to fight his corner when he is under scrutiny whereas Hannan is a reader of the script and starts to just repeat then get to the err, err, ummm.

      It is a pity Farage is so polarising because there is no better orator in British politics.

    • WhoStoleTyke

      Hannan is another kipper who frightens the average joe on the Clapham omnibus. He gets that crazed glint in his eye, and people start locking their doors.

    • 9sqn

      He gave an excellent interview with Jon Snow recently on C4 news.

  • JabbaTheCat

    Biggest problem currently is Vote Leave’s faux leavers Cummings and Elliott conveniently omitted from the above article, could it be because one of them is married to the Speccie’s commissioning editor?

  • Polly Radical

    Or maybe we’ll do as the Scots plan to do, and have a referendum every three years for the rest of our lives, until we get the right result.

    • Conway

      Only if we vote to LEAVE. If we vote to REMAIN, it will be final!

  • Blindsideflanker

    “So why are they in crisis?”

    They aren’t , they are having to spend most of their time fighting silly little split arguments from the likes of the Spectator.

    If there is a split developing it is the chasm that is opening up in the Conservative party, between the EUphile Parliamentary Party and the activist and voting base who are EUsceptic. Something that is begging to be recognised in the newspapers, with the likes of the Daily Mail asking ‘who will speak for England?’

  • hereward

    The two groups Leave and Elliot’s mob are fighting over who gets the Gov money for the out campaign . An important fight and the reason there can be no peace . The main leader for out should be Nigel Farage . He is the long standing opponent of the EU and everyone knows him .He has a strong personality , knowledge of the subject and has the best communication skills of them all .
    Richard Tice of LEAVE is a decent bloke but a bland nondescript speaker who has no impact .
    Mat Elliot last year was leading Business for Europe who were only asking for a reformed EU .
    Elliot is not trustworthy IMO . Hannan is another untrustworthy one . He talks the talk but will not walk the walk . This explains why he sticks with the EU Tory Party year after year . Another not to be trusted . He is no Mark Reckless who paid the price Hannan is not prepared to . Thankfully the EU themselves are demonstrating every day why we should get out of their failing disaster zone .

    • JabbaTheCat

      Quite sensibly the toxic Farage has been sidelined by both leave camps, the one person guaranteed to lose the upcoming EU referendum…

      • hereward

        WHY toxic ? Please explain . He and UKIP are the only reason we are having a referendum .Cameron was running scared of UKIP because of their success in elections and so made a promise that at the time he thought he would not need to keep ! LOL . Surely you would want NF to lead because you want Britain to lose the EU vote ? You want us in the EU I believe .

        • JabbaTheCat

          You should look at a little history, we are having a referendum because former Ukip MEP Nicky Sinclaire organised a petition that rapidly got over 100k signatures, a petition that Nigel Farage vehemently opposed, forcing a debate in the HOC that got the whole ball rolling.

          As for my wanting to remain in the EU, just read through my disqus comments and then decide if you want to withdraw that suggestion…

          • hereward

            Why toxic ? You do not answer . Yes I signed Nicky’s ref pet . This was not enough on its own to sway the mighty Leader . It was UKIP rising in the polls and the voting booths that swayed the place occupiers in the Commons .
            I also stated that Farage would be “the main Leader ” but obviously not the only one . Good news that you want us out .

          • JabbaTheCat

            Wining the leave EU argument depends on convincing the 87% of the electorate that didn’t vote Ukip, would never vote Ukip, that the best political interests of the UK lie outside the EU via a planned article 50 negotiated exit, whilst continuing to trade with EU member states, so until that is done the best place for Farage is deep in his little box with the lid firmly screwed down shut…

          • Laura Bailhache

            Best place for Nigel is negotiating our Article 50 exit. After all, he’s a member of a superior parliament to Cameron’s and the one we’ll be negotiating with.

          • JabbaTheCat

            Unfortunately, despite the efforts of a number of very bright and well informed people, Farage has consistently failed to take on board the basics of an article 50 exit, let alone anything of depth that would enable Farage to begin articulating even the faint outlines of a UK article 50 triggered exit strategy, necessary for the UK to move forward successfully to smoothly disentangling itself from the political bindings of current EU membership whilst retaining ongoing trade relationships with our neighbours in Europe, and, crucially maintaining the confidence of the UK public that this can be done successfully with the minimum of disruption, all of which is totally beyond the capabilities of your hero, whose real world skill set doesn’t extend beyond pi$$ing on Barosso or Junker’s ankles in the EU talking shop…

          • Toby Esterhase

            Good God, more stupidity.

            Is it “open doors day” at the local laughing academy?

          • Toby Esterhase

            Exactly.

          • big

            No,No,No,you’re having a referendum so the establishment can bury the whole EU thing for a generation and destroy the infantile eurosceptic movement for good.

        • Andrew Cole

          Because Farage would not win any new votes. All the people that he would win are already won over by him. To those that are waverers he would be a turn off.

          I’m a Tory but I love Farage. I love his direct talk but his style is not everyone’s cup of tea and whether fair or not, true or not he is too easy for the others to just shout ‘fascist’ at.

          We need someone that has exactly the same views but the opposition do not have that easy ammunition available.

        • WhoStoleTyke

          Cameron was running scared of his own anti-EU backbenchers, not UKIP. UKIP did appallingly badly at the general election, and the Tories’ private polling had confirmed they wouldn’t do very well.

        • Toby Esterhase

          If, like a gibbering fool, you keep repeating something, it will NOT become true, e.g.

          “He and UKIP are the only reason we are having a referendum…..”

          I heard that dim bulb Suzanne Evans repeat this on Sunday morning on Radio 4, and almost spat me corn flakes out. You people really are “special”.

          Mr. Jabba can enlighten you below.

      • Mary Ann

        bring back Farage and Britain will do the sensible thing, Stay.

        • hereward

          Sensible ? Mass immigration (invasion) and £180 Billion a year cost to Britain for being a member of a failing anti democratic club . Are you sane ?

          • hereward

            Answer came there none !!!!

          • Conway

            She’s in France.

      • Cyril Sneer

        Farage and UKIP are the only reason we have a referendum.

        But you will always attack the man. To you, it’s all about identity politics isn’t it?

        • Andrew Cole

          They are not attacking him. They are being sensible. Farage has done a much better job on this issue than annoy other politician has or could do however he is not the man to get us over the line. That isn’t an attack its just reality that he is a major turn off for many people that need to be won over on this issue and he is now very easy to attack because of the history of his party being called fascist with him being a target for it.

          Doesn’t matter that he or his party is not fascist or racist. It does matter that we don’t have a leader for this campaign that the opposition can easily throw the cheap shots of ‘fascist, bigot, rascist’ at. With Nigel they do not debate with him they immediately call him names and he has to defend himself and while he is defending himself he is being kept from talking about the actual subject.

          Like it or not that is just the way things are. No point putting an easy target up front. We need someone that they will have to find a new method of attack against or even better someone they dare not attack nor suggest anything at all other than argue about the facts.

          • Toby Esterhase

            Farage has done nothing but line his own pockets, and stopped UKIP from progressing. Do wake up at the back.

        • JabbaTheCat

          It’s a bit difficult not talking about the village idiot when he’s always been the main impediment to progress for the leave EU side of the argument…

        • Toby Esterhase

          “Farage and UKIP are the only reason we have a referendum.”

          Truly idiotic – and hilarious.

          It was an ex-MEP’s petition for a Commons debate. The only thnig UKIP achieved was 2nd place in 3 by-elections.

        • JabbaTheCat

          Btw, how’s your mate Putin doing, I see the rubble is nicely hovering around 80 to the dollar, must be a lot of puckered ring pieces in the Lubyanka People’s Republic at present…

      • 9sqn

        Were it not for a few UKIP voters bottling it and voting Conservative over the fear of an SNP/Labour win , this ‘toxic’ Farage might well have won around 20 odd seats.

        • JabbaTheCat

          Ah, the eternal kipper whatifery, meanwhile in the real world, the great political leader Farage managed to go exactly in the opposite direction, halve his HOC presence and fail to get himself elected as a real MP for the fifth time, stellar performance all round…

        • Toby Esterhase

          Let’s see…..

          2010 – blanket coverage of 550 constituencies, including ultra-safe main party seats, with virtually no money due to infighting. 1 million votes no MPs.

          Farage told by everybody “Wrong strategy – selective seats is the way to go!”

          2015 – Repeats same formula but on larger! scale (628) – : quadruples votes, halves 2 MPs to 1.

          Man’s an electoral genius ignoramus!

          • 9sqn

            A referendum is not about electoral strategy, parliamentary seats or FPTP. The 4 million votes he won at the last election will have the same worth as anybody else’s 4 million votes.

          • Toby Esterhase

            Which – in a breathtaking moment of self-awareness absence – contradicts what you just posted.

            OK, you lick Farage’s boots. Got that.

          • 9sqn

            There is no contradiction whatsoever. I am differentiating between the rules governing a general election and those governing a referendum. Did you not quite understand ?

          • Toby Esterhase

            Oh dear….another ‘Kipper.

            Well, I’ll waste no more of my time trying to educate the terminally clueless.

            Farage has sabotaged every single election since 2006 except, EU parliament. Perhaps you’ve never heard of the Webb Report?

          • 9sqn

            No, not another ‘Kipper’. An outer. But I repeat, do you not understand the difference between a REFERENDUM – with the emphasis on DUM – and an ELECTION ?

          • Toby Esterhase

            I had attempted to counter this stupidity…

            “Were it not for a few UKIP voters bottling it and voting Conservative over the fear of an SNP/Labour win , this ‘toxic’ Farage might well have won around 20 odd seats.”

            Vainly, it seems. Maybe learn to follow a discussion, and “thinking” before typing, lest you look even more foolish?

          • 9sqn

            Is patronising something you were born with or do you practise ? I stand by my post. I am quite able to follow a discussion thank you. I am not quite able to deduce the point you are trying ( and failing ) to make, from your sanctimony.

          • Toby Esterhase

            What I wrote was plain for everybody to understand, but if you’re so hung up on Farage that’s your problem. A genuine sign of a personality cult is that criticism of the figurehead is dealt with….well…..like you have, and Lord knows, their’s plenty of brain-donors on Disqus for that! Yours included.

            What you wrote was – I thought – stupid, your only counter was to take personal offence. Based on a couple of Disqus posts, you wrote this:

            “…do you not understand the difference between a REFERENDUM – with the emphasis on DUM – and an ELECTION ?

            A BA in Politics from B’ham Uni., and following politics since Heath (American since Nixon), and an 8-year Conservative party member and proud Thactherite.

            “patronising…. sanctimony….”? And you have the sense of humour of an 11-year old. Pfff!

          • 9sqn

            Well it seems to me that it is indeed you who have the hang up over Nigel Farage. I mentioned him once in a post in an attempt to illustrate that it was the British electoral system that denied 4 million voters of UKIP an MP in parliament and that those 4 million votes would not be so wasted in a referendum. You – and I suspect from your qualifications, deliberately – either ignored or misinterpreted my differentiation of an election and referendum. Hence the ‘dum’ – and decided derision to be the course in which to further your argument. This, I feel, despite my point being a strong one. Hence the sanctimonious patronising.
            My degree was in IT from Aston Uni, a far better Uni than B’ham, obviously but maybe not so high-falutin a discipline as yours. Suffice to say, one does not need a BA in politics to hold an opinion and one does not have to make you laugh to have a sense of humour.

          • Toby Esterhase

            Then I sincerely hope you’re better at “IT” than you are at discussion. People who berate modern education would seem to have fresh ammo for their argument, given your posts. I (obviously) went to a Russell Group uni., where (and when) we were taught how to think critically and clinically, and in my day one of the highest rated. How Aston is superior beats me.

            Like many here, I don’t want Farage anywhere near the anti-EU cause, because he will sabotage it, to maintain his seat on the gravy train, and I have an extensive posting history on this. I provided background to my point, which you’ve never done. You’ve merely a launched into personal attacks, so typical and tedious of Disqus posters.

            But my genuine personal history in reply did make you look exceptionally juvenile, to the point of foolishness.

          • 9sqn

            Well I’m so pleased you think so.
            Oh, the ‘Aston’ was a quip, which ‘obviously’ passed you superior clinical, critical thinking, by. And on that note, goodbye.

          • Toby Esterhase

            Yes, you’re the only ever poster to type silliness into Disqus and claim a university education. Didn’t spot that at all. Nope. No chance. You had me. Glad there was no money involved.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            Stop whining and start campaigning for PR then.

          • Todd Unctious

            No he is worse than that.

    • Freddythreepwood

      This post neatly sums up, albeit unintentionally, what is wrong and why a largely eurosceptic public are lacking leadership. Politicians just cannot stop being politicians. This sort of yah boo sucks behaviour is a gift to the Europhiles, who have shown themselves unable to make a coherent case for staying in. This is not surprising, because there is no coherent case for staying in. The Out campaign needs to get its ducks in line and shout from the rooftops the coherent case for getting out. Otherwise, they will have betrayed us all.

      • hereward

        Go to Breitbart and read that Cummings and Elliot have just been shown the door .
        Maybe a deal between the two camps can be arranged . Betrayal applies only to the LibLabConGreenSNP mob IMO .

    • WhoStoleTyke

      Trouble is, Farage only preaches to the converted. Non-kipper voters ignore his bombastic rantings. Sometimes when he gets carried away, I wonder when the right arm will go up. The bloke’s messianic, and quite frightening to old ladies as they cycle back from church on a Sunday morning. Anyway, he lost completely at the Oxford Union debate. (Probably blamed it on immigrants from the Czech republic.)

  • Norse Notion No.9

    Greetings from Norway!
    Please do look to Switzerland, Iceland and Norway, for information and inspiration. But you should of course make your own “Brexit” -model.
    And, just as important as the “Brexit” itself; engage in making a new alternative to the #@##&!! anti-democratic, Europe- and Western civilization (the only real one) -destroying EU!
    An alternative which limits itself to be just a vessel for practical cooperation on trade, industrial standards and so on.

    And for the peace and stability argument; that is already taken care of through NATO.
    (EU: give the peace price back, please!)

    • Blindsideflanker

      I am afraid we are having to fight against the total loss of confidence and defeatism of our establishment, if just for a moment they had some confidence in our nation, in one bound we would be free the EU.

    • jeremy Morfey

      I love Norway – wilder and less cultivated and restrained than Sweden. I was locked in a museum in Oslo when it closed, so I summoned a local for assistance. Never mind about hunting for a key to open the gate, this Viking just took the thing off its hinges and let me out!

      Maybe there is a lesson here for the brexiters?

    • Toby Esterhase

      Greetings, sensible fellow :-)

  • Frank

    Since the emperor is naked, why not let the British press devour Cameron whole!

  • davidofkent

    IMHO, those of us who want to leave the EU do not need any campaign organisation. In any case, David Cameron has done a very good job of showing how pointless it is to negotiate with the EU. I suppose that it could have been different had he gone with something relevant to negotiate.

    • Mongo

      but the key is persuading the undecideds, for that we need a well organised, positive and cogent campaign

      • Garlands

        The campaign can be ‘as well organised, positive and cogent’ as you wish,
        but if the MSM will not publish these arguments, instead only publishing
        negative gossip, I do not se a solution

        • LittleRedRidingHood

          Grassroots, meetings, workshops, roadshows and word of mouth. I’ll be leafleting my community. What will you do.
          Forget the MSM, they are establishment yes men.

    • WhoStoleTyke

      Cameron’s negotiations were always going to be pretty pointless, because what he’s trying to do, as member of the club, is declare a kind of Ian Smith UDI on Brussels. It was never going to work.

  • Richard Lally

    “a risk-averse electorate needs some sort of vision of Britain’s future outside the EU”
    This is the key point.
    The main chance the Outers have for winning the referendum is that scare-mongering about immigrants will win the day. But such mean-mindedness cannot be the basis for a vision, or at least of a vision bold enough to inspire unity.

    Once the nation went to war because Germany invaded Poland. Now: apparently the most important thing is to keep Polish builders out!

    • Cyril Sneer

      “scare-mongering about immigrants will win the day.”

      Scare mongering? More like you’re allergic to reality.

      “Now: apparently the most important thing is to keep Polish builders out!”

      More mind numbing bullsh t courtesy of the wet pants in brigade.

    • WhoStoleTyke

      And although I haven’t had any, Polish builders probably do a better quality job than our homegrown lot.

  • MrBishi

    The biggest problem for the Brexit crew is that they want to leave the EU and join EFTA. Much the same cost, most of the EU laws except farming and fishing, Schengen (open borders – yes really) and who would have thought that the Brexit crew would prefer open borders? Finally, no say whatsoever in the future development of the EU.
    Forgive me if I think that they are crazy.

    • Time To Go

      Who said that we wnated to join the EFTA? Thats never been mentioned. Forget what sort of relationship anyone else has with the EU. We want our own relationship. A UK one.

      • MrBishi

        If we leave the EU and wish to have a FTA with the EU – the stated intention of Brexit – EFTA is the only FTA that is available.
        BTW, the clue is in the name.

        • Time To Go

          Read my liips – we dont have to do anything that other people are doing. We can have our own arrangement.

          • MrBishi

            The level of detachment from reality of the Brexit crew is astonishing.
            “And God said, “the English are my chosen people and they shall command all other nations on earth to bend to their will”.
            A trading nation with productivity 20% below the G7 average, and education achievement worst in the developed world – now there’s a basis for standing alone.

          • Time To Go

            The cowardice of the In campaign is breathtaking. Absolutely terrified of not having the short tails of the inept EU to cling on to.

            I blame the nanny state.

            Its time for the UK to grow up again and stand on its own two feet and out of this dystopian EU madhouse.

          • MrBishi

            I quite like cliches, but you can have too many of them.
            Why would we join EFTA and lose our vote and veto in the development of the EU and sign up to Schengen?
            We gain control over farming and fishing but Norway spends the per capita equivalent of £10 billion a year on farming, which we get “free” with our membership fee.
            And before you say it, the UK parliament does have sovereignty already.

          • WFC

            Think you’ll find that EFTA members each have a veto (not a QMV, but a Veto) on any EU measure affecting them.

            But, as the previous poster has pointed out, EFTA probably wouldn’t suit the UK – certainly as regards free movement.

          • MrBishi

            Yet another halfwit with no knowledge of the subject.

          • Toby Esterhase

            Look in the mirror, and you’ll see the biggest.

          • MrBishi

            Lol.

          • WFC

            You may consider abuse like this to be a refutation, but let me assure you that nobody with any sense does.

            Do you want to have another go?

          • MrBishi

            After reexamining your post, I was correct; you are, indeed, a halfwit.

          • Giambologna

            This is nonsense. We don’t have a veto in the EU. But Norway does have one at global bodies, the same as the EU which represents us at this level.
            We do not get fishing ‘for free’ because we pay huge membership fees, far far larger than Norway do per person.
            As a member of EFTA and the EEA Norway actually has a far larger voice in shaping regulations that we do as 1 of 28. Norway has a much better deal than we do. If we left the EU, but stayed in the single market and joined EFTA and the EEA we would retain the Single Market, our immigration policies would admittedly not change, but we would regain political control. This is fundamentally very important.

          • Todd Unctious

            Which bit of Norway do you like most? The endless dark , the excessive cold, the ridiculous cost of living, the nice tall blondeness? Perhaps it is the 100,000 Poles there making up over 2% of all citizens, or the 23% who were born abroad, or the cripplingly low birth rates and aging population.Maybe the high suicide rate does it for you.

          • Giambologna

            What point are you trying to make? If Britain temporarily (note this word) adopted the Norway Option we would still enjoy the same mild climate, the same bone structures, and I suspect the same suicide rate. Yes, we would not improve our immigration policies as we would be subject to free movement of people but these would not be made worse, just not changed in the short term.

            What I like is their ability to control their own farming and fishing policies, to not be subordinate to the European Court of Justice, to have an important and usable veto at global bodies which can be used to benefit their economy and industries, not to have the Common External tarriff and therefore agree trade deals with those outside the EU protectionist zone, to be exempt from Common Defence and Foreign Policy and Justice and Home Affairs Policy (thus actual political freedom and sovereignty), to be exempt from the Charter of Fundamental Rights and to be exempt from EU VAT policy.

            Is that enough?

          • MrBishi

            Do you know anything at all about the EU?
            We do have a national veto on treaty changes, which enabled us to negotiate an opt out from Schengen.
            If you add their EFTA fee to what they spend on farming, Norway spends substantially more – per capita – than we do on EU/EFTA membership.
            EFTA members have NO SAY in how the EU develops.
            If we joined EFTA, Schengen (open borders) would be mandatory.
            Congratulations, of all the Brexit halfwits, you know far less about the subject than any other poster.

          • Giambologna

            According to the Norwegian government’s own figures, its total EU mandated payments (gross) are approximately £435m (€600m) per annum. With a population of five million, that is approximately £86 (€120) per head (gross). Net payments, however, are about £340m (€470m) per annum, or about £68 (€94) per head.

            On the other hand, in 2014, the UK gross contributions to the EU were £19.2bn, less £4.9bn rebate. That gives an equivalent gross payment of £14.3bn. After rebates and other receipts, our net contribution was £9.8 bn.

            With a population of 64 million, that puts our gross contribution (without rebate) at £300 per head, our equivalent gross payment at £223 per head, and our net per capita payment £153 per annum – more than twice the Norwegian payments.

            Also, we cannot veto a treaty and Cameron DID NOT veto a treaty in 2011. There is a QMV in the EU, which makes any talk of this irrelevant.

            Yes if we joined EFTA we would possibly/probably join Schengen but the inflow of migrants at the moment has nothing to do with Schengen and everything to do with the 1951 Convention on the Treatment of Refugees.

          • MrBishi

            The headline says it all:
            http://www.euractiv.com/sections/global-europe/vidar-helgesen-our-eea-contribution-costs-almost-much-eu-membership-314369
            And that doesn’t include what Norway spends on farming, which would be around £10 billion a year in like for like populations.
            You are wrong about QMV in treaties, we retain our veto.
            Schengen is MANDATORY and you will have a job getting that past the UK electorate.

          • Giambologna

            Shock, horror, pro-EU politician exaggerates costs of being out of EU. The supposed veto, The Luxembourg Compromise, only applies to those areas that need unanimous agreement, which have steadily been reduced every few years, and now this power is virtually non-existent. What we don’t have, that is of far more importance, is our own veto on regulations emanating from global bodies, such as the WTO, which Norway does have. Being a member of the EU only allows us a 1/28 say in using the EU veto, which gives us little power at this level, which is above the EU, which largely rubber stamps these global regulations.
            My point about your domineering, patronising tone is that it implies you have all the answers. No one does, I know I don’t, hence why I come here to debate. Someone who *knows* they are right, has a closed mind, which will lead them astray. Criticise but don’t abuse.

          • MrBishi

            Come back when you know what you are talking about. The UK is a member of WTO and has a veto over treaty change.

          • Giambologna

            Schengen is not the problem, so would make no difference to the UK. It would only be scaremongers who would make this into a problem. Although I admit there are plenty of those about.

          • MrBishi

            Roflmao.
            You read it here first folks, the Brexit crew are happy to adopt Schengen.

          • Giambologna

            Also that last sentence is completely unnecessary. Why the personal abuse. It is a reasonable debate to have, that should be couched in reasonable terms.

          • MrBishi

            Why do you, who clearly knows diddly squat about this subject come onto a public blog and make the statements you did?

          • Conway

            He’s losing the argument, so the only thing left is personal abuse.

          • Toby Esterhase

            “We gain control over farming and fishing but Norway spends the per capita equivalent of £10 billion a year on farming, which we get “free” with our membership fee…

            Congratulations. This has to be the most spectacularly inaccurate, incorrect and misleading sentences ever typed on the internet.

            You type nothing but insupportable, propagandist bilge. Nice pay-packet from the EU, is it?

          • MrBishi

            My post was factually correct and so that makes you a liar.
            “Due to differences in agricultural policies, the EEA EFTA States and the EU conduct their trade in basic agricultural products through bilateral agreements.”
            http://www.efta.int/media/publications/fact-sheets/EEA-factsheets/GoodsFactSheet.pdf
            http://donortracker.org/donor-profiles/norway/focus-agriculture

          • Toby Esterhase

            My car is a Bentley Continental and that makes you a poopy-pants.

            You do Daffy Duck a dis-service – he had a brain. I know about the bilateral agreements, and so do a great many Eurosceptics.

            Try my ORIGINAL point -which you are avoiding….”£10 billion”

          • MrBishi

            OFFS stop, I’ve fallen off the settee laughing.

          • Toby Esterhase

            Yes, laughing at something you don’t understand – or fear – is a familiar response.

            And like all the paid EU-tr0lls that infest Disqus, you type some bilge, and then can’t support it with a simple piece of impartial, honest, independent, authoritative evidence.

            Spend less time laughing (like a fool?) and more time proving assertions (like an adult)?

          • MrBishi

            But I have provided EU documentation.
            Clearly you were no more likely to read them or anything else in your headlong dash to remain ignorant at all costs.

          • Toby Esterhase

            Yes, you have.

            But I will never, ever read anything produced by ANY organisation that spends £536 million on promoting itself.

            http://forbritain.org/propagandapaper.pdf

            Independent, authoritative, verifiable research only please.

            I’ve no idea how much the EU is paying you for propaganda activities, but they’re getting lousy value for money.

            Next ….

          • MrBishi

            Neither the EU, nor anyone else pay me to write here.
            Which “leave the EU” organisation pays you to peddle your ignorant lies?

          • Toby Esterhase

            Absolutely none.

            I’ve been following politics since 1973, suspicious of the EEC since the SEA in 1985, and deeply anti-EEC – and campaigning – since 7 February 1992.

            And none of what I type is “lies” it is all provable, as opposed to your propagandist b0llux.

          • MrBishi

            Oh, so it’s OK for you to be posting here of your own volition but anyone posting against you is in the pay of the EU.
            You are breathtakingly ignorant and – as I have now proved on several occasions – your posts are bogus and lies.
            Leaving the EU and joining EFTA will result in the UK accepting Schengen and open borders, exactly the opposite outcome from the one you claim.
            Now PROVE your claim or PO.

          • 9sqn

            EU law has primacy over UK law. That is not sovereignty.

          • MrBishi

            Our parliament has every right – as the sovereign institution – to reject any EU legislation.

          • 9sqn

            Is that why it took 7 years to extradite Abu Qatada ? The EU supreme court has primacy over national law. As a sovereign nation yes of course we could reject its ‘over-rulings’. I mean, what are they going to do .. invade us, again. But then we wouldn’t be abiding by EU rules. We can’t be sovereign and full members of the EU at the same time.

          • MrBishi

            It was UK courts which declined to extradite Abu Qatada BECAUSE the UK parliament told them that they couldn’t.
            I don’t expect you to be aware of the fact – ignorance abounds in this area – that the ECHR is nothing to do with the EU, apart from the fact that the EU has signed up to it.
            May I suggest that you read the convention, which was hugely influenced by the UK when it was drawn up:
            http://www.echr.coe.int/Documents/Convention_ENG.pdf
            Before you decide that you can trust your government (of any persuasion) with these rights. Do you really think that a Tory government will allow free speech if it could shut it down?

          • 9sqn

            That whole post was complete and utter bollocks. We get farming for ‘free’ !! We lose our ‘vote and veto’ Since when have they been worth more than diddly squat ! You’ve either had a drink or you need one.

          • MrBishi

            At last the Brexit crew field an intellectual.

          • Conway

            Vetos are a thing of the past; it’s QMV now. The UK Parliament doesn’t have sovereignty because it doesn’t have control over its taxes (try taking off VAT from something to which it has recently been applied and soon we’ll be told – in the interests of harmonisation – that we HAVE to apply VAT to items that have traditionally been VAT free). You do realise that any subsidies the EU “gives” to our farmers comes out of the money WE have sent? The EU doesn’t have any money of its own and we are one of the few net contributors.

          • MrBishi

            I’m so sorry, I’ve exceeded my quota of halfwits for this week.
            BTW, we keep the VAT revenue.

          • Giambologna

            What do you mean standing alone? China, Australia, Canada, Norway, Brazil, the US – these are all countries not locked within a supranational organisation. Are they ‘standing alone’?

            Remember – the EU and the Single Market are separate entities, and we can be in the Single Market, and out of the EU (like Norway). So our trade would not be affected, but we would be out of a political union, thus not be restrained by CAP, CFP, the European Court of Justice, external trade tariffs, the Charter of Fundamental Rights etc.

            Key – we would also then gain a Veto at an international level, like Norway does. This would INCREASE our influence at world bodies, not decrease it. We are 1/28 in the EU, and can and are overruled on almost every decision. Norway (smaller than us), has a vote and veto at an international level, which we don’t apart from via the EU. If that is standing alone, I am happy to stand alone.

          • MrBishi

            They are not in Europe.
            The clue is in the name – “EU”.
            It’s a European customs union.

          • Toby Esterhase

            Is it bollocks. What an idiot you are.

          • MrBishi

            Do you have anything AT ALL constructive to add to the debate or does your intellect only extend to standing on the touchline shouting abuse?

          • Toby Esterhase

            “European customs union.”

            ROTFLMAO – where would one even start?

            Do you have any substantive proof of these ridiculous and wild assertions you’re making.

          • MrBishi

            Go away halfwit.

          • Toby Esterhase

            Yes, I think we reached the “zenith” of your propagandising and discussion ability some time ago. In fact, your 2nd post.

          • MrBishi

            I have provided facts.
            Your contribution has been lies and abuse.
            I repeat – go away halfwit.

          • Toby Esterhase

            Then you need a new dictionary, quarter-witted tr0ll-muppet.

            “£10 billion” – third time – prove it.

          • MrBishi

            I’m assuming you will do the honourable thing and FO when I provide the data.
            https://www.ssb.no/en/offentlig-sektor/statistikker/offinnut/aar/2015-11-26?fane=tabell&sort=nummer&tabell=247532
            2014 expenditure on agriculture and fishing: NOK 18,030 million.
            NOK 18,030,000,000 = £1,447,000,000
            UK GDP = Norwegian GDP x 5.23
            £1.447 x 5.23 = £7.568 billion
            2014 expenditure on biodiversitry and environmental protection (included in EU agriculture): NOK 2,224 x 1.447 / 18.03 x 5.23 = £0.993 billion
            Total Norwegian spend on agriculture £ 8,561
            Feel free to argue that this is less than the £10 billion I used from memory but my point is made.
            You are an ignorant halfwit spending your time on character assassination because your case for Brexit is bogus and built on lies.

          • UKSteve

            Speaking of ignorant halfwits who lie…….

            Your workings are deeply flawed ,which is what you get when you use rectally-derived figures such as “5.23”

            Agriculture – value added (% of GDP) in Norway

            Agriculture; value added (% of GDP) in Norway was last measured at 1.68 in 2014, according to the World Bank. Agriculture corresponds to ISIC divisions 1-5 and includes forestry, hunting, and fishing, as well as cultivation of crops and livestock production. Value added is the net output of a sector after adding up all outputs and subtracting intermediate inputs. It is calculated without making deductions for depreciation of fabricated assets or depletion and degradation of natural resources. The origin of value added is determined by the International Standard Industrial Classification (ISIC), revision 3. Note: For VAB countries, gross value added at factor cost is used as the denominator. This page has the latest recorded value, an historical data chart and related indicators for Agriculture – value added (% of GDP) in Norway.

            In 2014, Norway’s GDP was estimated at €252.8 billion, and if agriculture is %1.68 of that…..

            ….equals €4,247,040,000 – or £3,267,681,000

            Divide by a population of 5,207,689 and you get….?

            http://www.indexmundi.com/norway/economy_profile.html

          • MrBishi

            You’re not very bright are you?
            USING YOUR FIGURES
            Norway expenditure on Agriculture £3,267 million.
            UK GDP 2014 = $2,988 trillion
            Norway 2014 = $0.499 trillion
            Therefore UK GDP = Norway GDP x 5.89 (thanks for the tip, I used 2013 numbers in my calculation.
            Therefore Norwegian expenditure on agriculture on like for like basis:
            £3,267 million x 5.89 = £19.242 billion
            I do hope you will put this number before the UK voters.
            Oh, in case you have forgotten, our CAP and CFP is included in our EU membership fee.
            BTW I won’t accuse you of lying, you are just stupid.

          • UKSteve

            Absolutely hilarious, you haven’t a clue of what you’re on about.

            No wonder you’re pro-EU.

          • MrBishi

            Yet another halfwit.
            You might have some credibility if you say what is wrong with my figures – which were yours plus GDP data.

          • MrBishi

            “About the EU Customs Union
            The Customs Union is a foundation of the European Union and an essential element in the functioning of the single market. The single market can only function properly when there is a common application of common rules at its external borders. This implies that the 28 Customs administrations of the EU must act as though they were one.”

            http://ec.europa.eu/taxation_customs/customs/policy_issues/customs_strategy/index_en.htm#facts
            Read and learn.

          • Toby Esterhase

            Spectacular idiocy!

            You quote an official website of the EU to support the wildly propagandist rubbish you spout?

            The EU has competency over Foreign Affairs, Immigration and Asylum, Defence (soon) and is harmonised taxation across it’s span. And you think it’s a …..

            CUSTOMS UNION!

            ROTFLPMSL.

          • MrBishi

            Well, I assumed that if anyone knew who and what there are, it is the EU.
            Perhaps they should have asked you first.

          • Toby Esterhase

            Ha ha ha ha. Oh dear, so hilarious.

            Yes. (Thinks: needs an analogy for the desperately thick)

            That’s like you saying that Coca Cola is the world’s greatest soft drink, and offering up their website!

            So funny.

          • MrBishi

            You seem to be a some sort of journey to greater ignorance.
            A very short journey in your case.

          • Toby Esterhase

            Sorry to see yours ended so long ago.

          • MrBishi

            Oh good God my hairball is back.

          • Toby Esterhase

            And it seems to have (again) taken up residence between your ears.

          • big

            Great answer.

          • WhoStoleTyke

            “…education achievement worst in the developed world” — easily explains their level of detachment from reality. These people would have been flat-earthers in former times.

          • Todd Unctious

            That is what the CoLC want. To be protected from EU financial regs and to coin it through their web of tax havens. The Leave campaign do the bidding of the 1%.

        • WFC

          No it isn’t. The EU has plenty of FTAs outside of EFTA.

          An FTA with Canada has just been agreed.

          • MrBishi

            What does the “E” stand for in EU.
            The EU is a EUROPEAN customs union.

          • WFC

            Do you really put this forward as an argument intended to be taken seriously?

          • MrBishi

            I refer you to the answer I gave earlier.

    • Gilbert White

      Fishing! We could get these illegal parasites on Islay and create a world class money earner using them as cheap labour?

      • MrBishi

        Good God, I’ve turned into a biscuit magnet.

        • Todd Unctious

          Do you mean magnate? Biscuits are not magnetic.

          • MrBishi

            No, I meant “magnet”.
            Biscuit magnet is a term used by my daughters when they got on a bus and attracted a halfwit to sit next to them.

          • Todd Unctious

            Your family use buses?

          • MrBishi

            My daughters did when they were children.

    • WhoStoleTyke

      You’re not the only one, MrBishi, who thinks this. I think eurosceptics are just born whingers, who once got their kicks propping up the bar in public houses across Britain, but are now frustrated that pubs are closing all the time. They’ve hit upon one or two mantras that they milk at every opportunity. The “audit” being one; “Brussels” (an imaginary lair of evildoers) is another. Their spokesman, Nigel Farage, has a nifty turn of phrase, but is sounding tired, as he just keeps repeating the same old phrases ad nauseam and is probably getting fed up with the sound of his own voice.

      Suffice it to say that Brexit would be simply terrible for Britain and its place in the world. We would be seen globally as the one nation that took its bat home and screwed the game for everybody. I tell you, I wouldn’t like to be a Brit abroad after Brexit. I’d pretend to be German, as I speak the language fluently. Personal safety is paramount.

      • 9sqn

        Perhaps Arabic may be more suitable following a ‘stay’ vote.

      • Conway

        Good luck with that one.

      • LittleRedRidingHood

        Terrible in what way. You keep claiming this without any substance.

  • William Matthews

    British politicians are self serving gutless disorganized sycophants and David Cameron couldn’t negotiate his way round Waitrose. In fact the only seemingly principled politician is Jeremy Corbyn and he is such a doddering mindblowingly stupid and delirious old fool whose principles revolve around a 10 years olds comprehension of ‘fair’ that the only conclusion can be; we are doomed. In or out of Europe, we’re DOOOOOOOMED! The end is most definitely f***king nigh. …I probably need another cup of coffee.

  • http://my.telegraph.co.uk/voteregime/ The Prez

    I never wanted a referedum for exactly this reason. I just want to elect a government that will take us out, no renegotiation, just out.

    • Gilbert White

      Too easy too sensible and too democratic?

      • http://my.telegraph.co.uk/voteregime/ The Prez

        Hardly. I agree with Clement Attlee, later invoked by Margaret Thatcher, who called them a device of dictators and demagogues. And the remain campaign should agree with me because this could very easily turn on the migrant crisis or another economic collapse. You may yet wish I’d had my way.

    • Giambologna

      Very good point. Referendums are only used to elicit the result the government wants. That is why ‘Conservative Eurosceptics’ is such an oxymoron. What would happen if we actually vote to Leave – collective responsibility will ensure that the Cabinet who will supposedly oversee our leaving negotiations will all have been supporters of staying in. A ridiculous situation.

  • James Chilton

    Should Britain vote to remain in the EU, its position in Brussels will be far weaker. Gone will be the leverage that came from the sense that this country was only ever a summit or two from storming out…….Britain’s bluff will have been called.

    This is a very important point; and it shows that the case for remaining in the EU is utterly irresponsible.

    • Malcolm Stevas

      Quite. One dreads to anticipate the position we will find ourselves in, should the referendum go that way. It will be not only worse in practical terms than at present – even less genuine national sovereignty, even more liable to ghastly impositions such as those migrants – it will be a national humiliation.

      • James Chilton

        If the Inners get their way, it will give the upper hand to the Eurocrats permanently. They will scoff at any objections to their lunatic schemes on the grounds that we voted to stay in their madhouse. And that’s what Cameron wants !

        • WhoStoleTyke

          I want it, too!

          • James Chilton

            I don’t believe you.

      • WhoStoleTyke

        Nope. The humiliation of self-inflicted isolationism will be such a bad disgrace among the world’s peoples that it will take years for our respect to be restored, and certainly not under the Cameron dynasty, which will take its rightful place in the history books as an anachronistic bunch of posh boys who couldn’t govern their way out of a paper bag.

        Basically, we will have shown the world how to throw our toys out of the pram just because Nanny told us to clean our teeth before bed. We are behaving like spoilt party-poopers, and first Europe and then the rest of the world won’t like it, and won’t like us for doing it and upsetting the apple cart.

        They’ll enjoy calling us whingeing Poms, though.

        • Malcolm Stevas

          It’s certainly original to interpret a desire to govern one’s own country through one’s own Parliament under one’s own laws as making us “spoilt party poopers”. And you commit the common error of thinking a departure from the EU equals “isolationism” rather than reasserting our independence, a condition we enjoyed for something over 1200 years until 1975 – and which enabled us to be one of the world’s most remarkably outgoing nations.

          • Todd Unctious

            Malcy. The Roman legions left in 410. England was united in 927. Then subjugated by Danes in 1012 and by French Vikings in 1066. We did not join the Welsh until 1536 or the Scots until 1707 and Irish in 1801. So how were we independent for 1200 years until 1975?

        • Cyril Sneer

          Isolationism hahaha laughable tosh.

          Such a bizarre backwards world you inhibit – everything is back to front. Do you vote Labour?

          • WhoStoleTyke

            Yes. Corbyn will be the next PM. Perhaps even before 2020 when the Tories implode after a failed Brexit attempt.

          • Conway

            That explains everything!

          • LittleRedRidingHood

            Farage has more chance of premiership than he

        • Richard Baranov

          You must be young, anyone who can remember the Common Market as opposed to the EU, knows very well that you are talking drivel. And anyone who can remember life prior to the Common Market knows very well that we were and always have been a nation that looks far beyond Europe. It is the parochial attitude of the EU that has caused us incalculable harm and continues to do so. We were far from isolated before the EU, in fact we were probably the most internationally orientated country in Europe, if not the globe. We could be again if it were not for this millstone around our necks, the EU.

          • WhoStoleTyke

            I’m 70.

          • 9sqn

            About time you grew up then.

          • Todd Unctious

            A baby blipper. Born in the brief blip of extra births at the end of the war, 1944 to 48.

          • Richard Baranov

            Then you are one of two things, a liar concerning your age, or an utter fool who has gone senile and forgotten history.

        • Giambologna

          Is every other country in the world not in a supranational organisation ‘isolationist’? Are Norway, Australia, Canada, Japan, China? Europe existed before the EU and will exist after the EU.

          The argument is whether the organisation is a good one and beneficial for us as a country. Its history of deceit and obscurity, its obvious ambitious for increasing power and position, its animosity to democracy, and its irrelevance in global trade structures, renders it not only a pointless middle-man in economic terms, but also a slow and menacing political structure that we would be better out of.

          • LittleRedRidingHood

            We existed before the EU and powerfully so. Why do these lefty losers think we cannot do that again?

        • LittleRedRidingHood

          Losers and quitters can move to Europe then.
          You really are deluded. We would be stronger than ever. We don’t need Brussels.

    • Conway

      Our position in Brussels is pretty weak at the moment and we’re thinking of leaving! We have 8% of the votes. One voice against 27. We are one of a few net contributors, so guess what? The net recipients will outvote us every time. This will only get worse as new net recipients line up for accession (Turkey and Albania, anyone?).

  • Paul

    The out campaign does need to get its act together. The EU is a move away from Western Liberal Democracy towards a benign or paternal dictatorship of Europe’s educated elite – well meaning but, like intellectual elite’s everywhere, often just wrong. If Britain votes to stay in we will be endorsing this enterprise and will only have ourselves to blame when we find ourselves trapped in a failing empire that cannot cope with global reality.

    • WhoStoleTyke

      It’s got my endorsement!

      • Cyril Sneer

        And mine.

        • Paul

          You guys will be endorsing the end of western liberal democracy?

          • Pioneer

            Nothing more illiberal than a modern liberal.

          • Paul

            Indeed.

    • 3aple

      Are you sure its benign?

      Do you really think its being run for the benefit of we, the hoi polloi?

      The Sky reporter could not find a single participant of the Davos 0.01% club in favour of Brexit. To be of the 0.01% you have to be pretty ruthless. Do you think they have our common wealth at heart?

      .

      • Paul

        NoI am not sure – although I think they would see themselves as benign.

        • 3aple

          Frankly, with that group, I doubt even that.

      • Todd Unctious

        0.01% of global population is 740,000. Davis could not cope with such numbers. I think you meant 0.001%

        • 3aple

          I willingly concede to you.

          Imagine how much more ruthless you must be to be in that group.

          .

  • Time To Go

    Everything is now pointing to a BREXIT.

    Cameron and the EU ie the German Empire has shot itself massively in the foot and a series of arrogant own goals has sealed its fate as far as the UK is concerned.

    The latest scandal involving the criminal masses from the third world is unbelievabel and if the German Government thinks that censor ship is somehow going to solve their problem then they are seriously kidding. Also it points to the type of EU that we are moving towards. Geroge Orwell called it right and could well have been specifically talking about the EU when he wrote 1984. Sweden is another case in point and heading towards being another failed state due to its looney left PC policies.

    And people wonder why there is the rise of the far right all over the EU?

    the EU has wrecked France, wrecked Italy, Greece is now a failed state, Germany is being wrecked, unemployment amongst certain age groups in Spain exceeds 50% and the EU’s own accounts cant pass the auditors – for 20 years!

    If the EU wishes to move towards a dystopian super state full of third world illiterate rapists and gropers then thats fine, but we are not moving in that direction.

    Our eyes are firmly set towards the rest of the world and a divorce from the continual problems and ineptness that is now the lot of the EU.

    If we have to pay a fee to trade with the EU then thats fine, we should do so, but other than that its time to get our seat back at the WTO, we need our own Bill of Rights and we need an end to the freedom of movement which is killing our working class.

    We will leave and then redefine both who we are in the world and our relationship with the EU.

    Time to take control of the UK back from the EU. time for a new UK. Time to Leave.

    • WhoStoleTyke

      What “German Empire” are you thinking of here? It’s just “Germany”, isn’t it?

      The “latest scandal” actually involved very few actual cases of rape, but the right-wing rabidly eurosceptic press caught on fast as soon as it was reported than men from “North Africa” were allegedly the perpetrators. Yeah, why not season your reporting with a touch of racism, chaps!

      As for “wrecking” France, Italy, Greece and Germany, this is so far from the truth as to be a scurrilous lie, though to be expected from the kipper persuasion who have no genuine arguments, only fear-mongering. I was in Germany over Christmas and of “wrecking” was there absolutely no sign. Even Greece now evokes no more headlines like it once did. The Greeks finally dragged themselves kicking and screaming into the real world after spending the past forty years avoiding all forms of tax as a national pastime. No wonder the economy finally went down the pan.

      If Britain chooses isolationism on Referendum Day the electorate will have made their biggest mistake probably for ever, and the world will not thank us for destabilising the global economy, which is certain to happen the day after Brexit and beyond.

      Time to tick the “Remain” box!

      • Fyodor Dochievsky

        It was a few hundred rapes, you libtard.

        • LittleRedRidingHood

          Times ten at least

      • Time To Go

        You are absolutely delusional and in denial.

        The EU has wrecked europe and the latest illegal migrant scandal involving the importation of millions of backward, illiterate third world criminals sums it up.

        The German government has now taken to censorship in something that resembles Germany in the 1930’s and newspapers have even admitted that they are now encouraged to produce Merkel flavoured articles.

        Once more when the shackles are off the Germans lead Europe to the abyss.

        If you want to be part of it why not move to Germany and enjoy your cultural enrichment.

        • Cyril Sneer

          Indeed, he can take his wife and kids with him too.

          • Conway

            Assuming he has any.

      • Cyril Sneer

        “The “latest scandal” actually involved very few actual cases of rape”

        A level of ignorance of Guardianista proportions.

        You’re part of the problem. .

      • 3aple

        So you think the EU needs no reform?

      • Malcolm Stevas

        I suggest you do a little research into popular opinion in Germany where that wicked British “right-wing rabidly Eurosceptic press” has no influence…

      • Paul

        So long as there were only a few actual rapes and the rest were mere sexual assault then no problem. Just high jinks from the lads eh?

      • njt55

        The biggest mistake we made was voting to join this sorry mess

        • Todd Unctious

          No .The biggest mistake we made was electing Thatcher and letting her deregulate the City of London in1986.

          • rtj1211

            Well, if your hero Jim Callaghan had controlled the Unions a bit better in 1978/9, then maybe Mrs T. would never have been Prime Minister?!

          • Toby Esterhase

            Idiotic. The standard of living (relatively the highest ever) we’ve had for the last 3 decades is due to her and her determination to rescue us from bankruptcy.

          • Todd Unctious

            No . It is due to borrowing . Surely you grasp that little fact.

          • Toby Esterhase

            Not while she was PM it wasn’t. Try some reading instead of typing?

          • Todd Unctious

            Thatcher doubled UK government debt from £87 billion to £192 billion. She allowed consumer debt to almost quadruple. She ran a surplus in just 2 of her 11 years and by 1989 8% of all consumer spending was equity withdrawal. Thatcher’s miracle was debt fuelled lime every government since the war.

          • Toby Esterhase

            You Thatcher-haters really are so tragically pathetic, and unintentionally funny.

            So what marks her out if “…[her] miracle was debt fuelled like every government since the war.”?

            You don’t read other people’s opinions -which accounts for your ignorance.The vast majority of ‘haters’; since they’ve been properly debated, have come to realise what a gift she was, and many on social media say they wish we could see her like again.

          • Todd Unctious

            I don’t hate Thatcher. That is not fair. I utterly despise the very air she breathed. I wish doom on the very ground she walked on. I have nothing but contempt for that harradin. She put our country back 30 years and made us all ashamed to be English. Ruining a once Great nation.

          • Toby Esterhase

            Really glad you’ve posted this Todd. It signals exactly what you are to posters.

            She may have made YOU ashamed to be English (which, honestly doesn’t seem like it would be a challenge!), but why don’t you see if you can find some of the estimated 450,000 men and women who queued outside Forces recruiting offices (UK wide) when the Falklands kicked off?

            And if you tried reading something, you might end up less foolish, Might. Then, it would be up to someone else to tell me how they hate “air”.

          • Todd Unctious

            I am proud to say I despise Thatcher and everything she did to our once proud country.

          • Toby Esterhase

            And if you opened your mind, you would realise that it was only a proud country because> of Margaret Thatcher Proof provided.

            Unless you think we had pride during the Wilson / Heath / Wilson / Callaghan years?

          • Todd Unctious

            Nonsense.She and her sycophants and paymasters were near evil.

          • Toby Esterhase

            Hmm, good one, because that’s never been true of any political party in the history of the UK has it?

            Anyway, it’s your comfort blanket. You hold on to that hatred; keeps you safe.

          • Todd Unctious

            I think it explains most of our modern day ills. Thatcher was a useless premier. Useless beyond measure.

          • Toby Esterhase

            Change your name to Todd Cretinous? More suitable :)

          • LittleRedRidingHood

            Are you a rabid lefty?
            They are the best kind apparently.

          • big

            Eh how many many Toby,now be very careful what you say next.

          • Toby Esterhase

            Seek help (medical). And soon.

          • big

            Toby you really are a laugh.

          • Toby Esterhase

            Cheers.

          • big

            No Toby that wasn’t a compliment.

          • Toby Esterhase

            No, it was your usual infantility.

          • big

            “Usual”,interisting,very interesting.

          • big

            Toby where were you in 1982?

          • Toby Esterhase

            Bern, but I can’t talk about it.

          • big

            So how do you know how many people were outside recruitment offices?

          • big

            Ha Ha Ha pure gold Toby.

        • Conway

          The biggest mistake we made was believing Ted Heath’s lies and voting to REMAIN in a “common market” that he knew was no such thing. Wilson also hid the truth so we voted under false pretences.

      • rtj1211

        If you think Britain leaving the EU will ‘destabilise the global economy’ you really are off with the fairies. The only people who will do that are speculators and spivs, who couldn’t care if 95% of the world lived in poverty as long as their puts and calls make them a few billion every year…..

      • Toby Esterhase

        More stupid propaganda, probably another paid EU-troll.

      • 9sqn

        Very few actual cases of rape. Well now, there’s a small mercy. And they were described as men of North African appearance because .. wait for it … they were men of North African appearance. Did you see the interview on BBC of an asylum seeker 5 days later ? He claimed it was Germany’s fault because of them not being allowed to work so it is ‘easy for them to fall into crime’. Sexual harassment ands rape clearly on a par with shop lifting in these people’s minds.

      • Wendle Trendle

        “very few actual cases of rape”

        You sick piece of s&^t.

        I think your blase attitude to mass sexual assault shows how worthless and vile your opinions are.

      • LittleRedRidingHood

        Disgusting. Tell the women and children who have been on the receiving end of the enrichment in Europe that they were insignificant.
        The fact that the authorities go to great lengths to hide the reports of this savagery shows how widespread this is and how divisive it it.
        The best was the 10 year old boy raped by an Iraqi migrant who apologised but said it was and emergency because he’d not had s3x for a while.
        You leftist scumbags with your moral equivalence sicken me.
        Sacrificing your own for your warped utopia of multiculturalism.

    • 9sqn

      Well you convinced me, but do you think 3 months is time enough to convince the others. I’m not so optimistic.

  • WhoStoleTyke

    I want Britain to stay in the EU more than ever. I am convinced that leaving the world’s largest single market and saying “naff off” to all the myriad benefits we get from membership would be utter folly for Britain’s future. I am also convinced that the majority of Brits have been fed too many scaremongering lines from the rabidly right-wing eurosceptic press, and too many believe what they read. However, on the day I’m sure that common sense will prevail and the issue will be finally put to bed with Britain staying in for good.

    • Time To Go

      …and what are the benefits of the EU that we cant have outside?

      I’ll give you a clue – there are none.

      not only that but if we vote to stay in this is just the beginning of the fight. The UK has been the enemy within the EU forever and a day and thats the way it will always be until we are out.

      If you think that this vote, if we vote to stay in, ends the discussion then you are absolutely delusional. This runs and runs until we leave. Make absolutely no mistake about that.

      • Todd Unctious

        If there wasn’t an EU then we’d have to create one. Mainly to stop France and Germany from going to war every few decades.

        • njt55

          We had and have NATO for that.

          • Todd Unctious

            I assume NATO has freedom of movement or are Yank troops denied access to Norway, Estonia, Turkey et al?

        • Giambologna

          The idea that the EU stopped war between France and Germany is nonsensical, and anyone with a grasp of history would know this. First of all, both countries were decimated by WW2 and there was no will or way that either could fight for many decades after. NATO was primarily responsible for holding the peace in continental Europe through its unilateral deterrence.

          But the key point is that Germany was split post WW2 into East Germany and West Germany. It was only unified after the fall of the Berlin Wall. Up until this point it was far weaker that it had ever been, and it is still recovering from this split. Germany dominates Europe through its natural size. When it was split for obvious reasons it didn’t. But now that it is recovering its strength post unification you can already see that it is starting to dominate Europe again, and France’s role is once again reducing. Problems will start to occur and grow in Europe, and already are because of the shifting nature of these relationships. The EU has not solved these problems.

          • Todd Unctious

            I think Germany was a bit more than decimated. That means reduced by 10%%. Do you mean devastated? France was at war in Algeria ,the Congo, Morocco,Korea and Vietnam by 1950.

          • Giambologna

            I may be wrong, but I think decimated can also mean ‘remove a large part of’. But devastated was probably a better word yes. France being at war abroad is not the same as war with a neighbour, were the population itself is threatened. I agree that much of the want for the EU in continental Europe arises from the terrible history of mainland Europe, particularly from the ‘wars of people’ in the last century. It is totally understandable that people would grasp at anything that can help keep them from fighting. I just don’t think the evidence points to the EU achieving that, and think they had a major role in de-stabilising the Ukraine.

            That the people of the UK on an island separate from mainland Europe have largely been immune from the personal devastation of being invaded and conquered (apart from the briefly threatening Battle of Britain) has a large part to do with its lack of enthusiasm for the EU. We never felt the same need.

            The way the EU leaders bang the drum against Russia now shows that peace and unity is maybe not at the forefront of their minds, but division that enables them to increase their own power.

          • Todd Unctious

            They are right to bang the drum about Russia. Russia is a nation of untrustworthy liars. We should all be on our guard where dishonesty reigns.

          • rtj1211

            What do you think America is populated with? Jesus, John the Baptist and Mother Teresa?!

          • Todd Unctious

            America is by and large populated with dimwits. That is why Europe needs to look to its own protection.

          • Giambologna

            Maybe you are correct on that word.

            But if you are so happy for peace between France and Germany why do you then antagonise for strife with Russia? Do you know the ordinary Russian well? Have you lived there? Russia is not the USSR. It is a different country with many faults but maybe we should not push it away like the EU is doing but become its ally. What is happening now is only leading to disaster for ordinary Russians and peace in continental Europe. And it is partly or largely the fault of the EU.

            If you dislike untrustworthy liars so much then maybe you should look at Cameron, who willfully lied to the House of Commons yesterday, saying that his negotiations with the EU were ‘legally binding’ when they were nothing of the sort. In days past that would have been exploited by the media and he should have to consider resigning, but not anymore.

          • Todd Unctious

            Russia is the enemy because Russians cannot be trusted. All of Europe knows this.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            Now now. Putinites.

          • 9sqn

            I’d rather trust the leader of Russia, Vladimir Putin than trust the leader of the EU, .. errr .. who is it today ?

          • LittleRedRidingHood

            Slap, the broard brush again.

          • LittleRedRidingHood

            Just like the liars in Brussels. You can’t trust anybody these days.

        • rtj1211

          It’s NATO and American troops stationed in Germany for 40 years which stopped war, not the EU. The EU couldn’t stop a bunch of ethnic Serbs from cleansing each other. How they’d stop 21st century Rommels rolling across the Maginot line is the stuff of fantasies……

          • Toby Esterhase

            And the threat of first use of nuclear weapons in the case of invasion.

        • Toby Esterhase

          Christ, you’re still peddling that 1968 h0r$esh1t? You don’t know about Edward Heath do you?

          http://quotes.yourdictionary.com/author/edward-heath/61221

        • 9sqn

          Since when was it our responsibility to stop those two going to war ? The irony is, the next European war will be for secession from the United States of Europe.

        • Pioneer

          You had better out while you can , you will be then be able to ameliorate the effects of the coming civil war the EU is creating

        • LittleRedRidingHood

          Why would WE have to do anything of the sort.

    • Cyril Sneer

      I don’t need to listen to the scare monger stories to know that staying in will be a very very bad idea for me and my children.

    • Giambologna

      Do you not understand that the EU and the Single Market are different entities? You can be out of the EU and in the Single Market (aka Norway). This is eminently possible. We continue to trade freely with those benefits, whilst we withdraw from the vast political interference, the European Court of Justice, idiotic CAP and CFP policies that destroy our farming and fishing industries etc. etc.

      So maybe you have read too much scaremongering yourself? Maybe you are not so different from those you accuse?

    • 9sqn

      You sound like one of the Great Britain haters, blaming Blighty for slavery, the credit crunch, African poverty and all the other world’s ills. The EU, your big chance to get even.

    • LittleRedRidingHood

      What percentage of the world,market does the EU have?
      Is it rising or falling?
      And be honest with your answer.

  • commenteer

    Come on , Boris. This is your moment. Step forward for the outers, and the Tory party will be yours for the taking.

    • Todd Unctious

      Ah the spawn of Austrian and Bulgarian aristocrats to lead the Lidl Englanders.

      • Toby Esterhase

        No Englanders in our local Lidl. They’re ALL Polish or Russian.

    • Toby Esterhase

      Johnson? LOL, don’t you know?

      He’s passionately pro-EU, his family is of Turkish descent, so he’s campaigning for them to join.

      • commenteer

        I’m sure his personal ambition outstrips any past views, if it’s to his advantage.

  • WFC

    Things might start to go better now that a certain pair have left the board of Vote Leave.

    • Giambologna

      Left the board but are still there. Which is a shame

  • Tony

    I think Dave is running the leave campaign.

    • Tom Cullem

      If only.

      • rtj1211

        Well, he could be doing the In so disastrously that the effect is to promote ‘Leave’. Whether that was deliberate or the cock-up theory of Prime Ministers, you’ll have to wait for some memoirs in about 2035……

  • Andy B

    Personally I am looking forward to the point the Conservatives Party the Provisional Tories and UKIP have had their squabble and we can actually start the adult discussions about in or out …

    • Todd Unctious

      Well we sincerely hope the split in the Tory party is sufficient to deprive it of power for a generation.

      • njt55

        No we don’t

        • Todd Unctious

          It is our greatest hope for a decent future for our kids. The marginalising of the Eton Toffs.

          • 9sqn

            A decent future decided by a government marginalised by union oligarchs and flying pickets. Yeah.

          • Conway

            You do realise that if we REMAIN, even if Corbyn were elected (a big IF), he’d have no more power to create a decent future than a parish councillor? He’d have to do what Berlin Brussels felt was in the best interests of Germany.

          • LittleRedRidingHood

            Where half of the Labour crowd went.

      • whs1954

        And replace it with the splendid Mr Corbyn? No thanks.

    • Roger Hudson

      They don’t want a clear adult discussion because the clarity would lead to an ‘out’ vote. They are trying every trick of confusion and distraction, plus outright lies of course.

  • Tom Cullem

    Even if the LEAVE campaign were well organised, unified, well-funded, divorced from the unfortunate follies of UKIP, and each day brought a new bulletin like the ones we’ve just seen this week: the EU giving in on weaker carbon emissions upon pressure from auto industry lobbyists, failure to control the next wave of migrants trying to force their way into Europe except by selling the EU to Turkey for a very high sticker price, the European Court of Justice telling the UK it cannot deport foreign criminals, and the passage of TTIP and its impact on grass roots control of environmental and wage laws and benefits . . .

    they would lose. The forces arrayed for REMAIN include most of the global corporatists for whom most western governments are now working, and as one by one May, Gove, Hammond, and the rest of the faux sceptics cave in and support the farcical non-deal Cameron is trying to pass off as a victory, the real rocks under the EU mattress are increasingly hard to discern by the public. They are frightened, uninformed, and willing to settle for a few crumbs. They will vote to REMAIN no matter what. They deserve to be part of the new form of feudalism that the EU is facilitating. It’s a shame but there it is.

    • Malcolm Stevas

      Before referring to the “unfortunate follies of UKIP” allow me to suggest the EU debate would not have advanced nearly so rapidly without the pressure from UKIP. Cameron could not ignore UKIP – and he has still failed to sideline it. Indeed, it seems likely that Cameron’s two-faced, ineffectual, faux “renegotiation” will increase UKIP’s appeal whichever way things turn out.

      • Todd Unctious

        The out campaign have one fatal flaw. They are wrong.

        • Giambologna

          It is a Leave campaign FYI

          • Todd Unctious

            Leaving allows for possible return. I am sure most of the mistaken voters who support leave them of it as out and out forever. Either way they are wrong.

          • 9sqn

            ‘In’ would almost certainly mean an ‘in forever’.

          • Conway

            And no second chance.

        • 9sqn

          Well thanks for your in-depth and forensic reasoning. Nuff said, I guess.

        • big

          Todd you have create a new word for dumb to describe the so called out campaign.

        • LittleRedRidingHood

          Spoken like a true leftist.
          Provide the case for staying in.

      • Giambologna

        They may have advanced the cause for the referendum but they will ultimately help cause a Remain vote in the referendum because of their poor grasp of strategy and use of emotion over reason.

        To win a referendum it is clear we have to accept that it is important to temporarily stay in the Single Market, and therefore we have to temporarily accept the free movement of people across Europe. Ukip does not accept this, therefore does not accept an exit plan which allows us to stay in the Single Market, which therefore means business, and all those concerned about the economy, will back Remain and the referendum is lost.

        • Jenny Wren

          ” use of emotion over reason”……correct.

      • JabbaTheCat

        Cameron doesn’t need to do anything but sit back and watch Farage sideline Ukip, and a absolutely splendid job he is doing too judging by the deep internal fractures and the people with the chequebooks walking out the door…

        • Toby Esterhase

          Plus the exodus of disillusioned members…..mostly to the Conservatives, would you believe?

          • JabbaTheCat

            Would be a little difficult to expect them to swarm to the Libdims? ;o))

          • Toby Esterhase

            Do the Limp Dims still exist? 😉

          • JabbaTheCat

            A very good question to which I have no concrete answer without some actual field research, which I am wholly unmotivated to conduct for the foreseeable future…

          • Toby Esterhase

            Understandable! Did like Charles Kennedy – sort of – though.

          • JabbaTheCat

            Drunk or sober? I was always of the mind Kennedy was more coherent drunk, but then in the sitting position the rectal orifice tends to be somewhat muted…

          • Toby Esterhase

            Sober…. he gave an “almost human” face to a party so deliriously detached from reality, it was touching.

        • Malcolm Stevas

          It would be a great shame, and bad for our country, if UKIP were to implode in the way you suggest. Large numbers of people, including myself, would feel even more disenfranchised than we do already. I haven’t voted Tory since some time in the ’90s; twice I declined to vote in a GE because none of the candidates seemed worth voting for; in the past two GEs, plus the Euros, I voted UKIP. After voting Tory for decades my impatience with them turned to contempt.

          • JabbaTheCat

            Ukip started out well but it all went rapidly downhill when Farage and the rest of his EU troughing cabal took over and turned Ukip into a political joke which is running its natural course of decline…

          • Malcolm Stevas

            I do not agree with “troughing cabal” in the slightest, a grossly inaccurate & unfair slur. Do you support the Conservative Party? How can you bring yourself to do that? I was reasonably happy voting Conservative until the mid-90s, especially with Thatcher in charge, but after that? Useless, hypocritical, unreliable, unpatriotic, weak.

          • JabbaTheCat

            Then you are completely ignorant about Ukip’s history and the nature of the people you support, all of which information is readily available online if you bother yourself to do so…

          • Malcolm Stevas

            I fear you are proffering personal opinion or prejudice as if it were confirmed historical fact. There’s plenty of material online about the flatness of the earth, I dare say.

          • Toby Esterhase

            He isn’t. What he says is demonstrably true, but your responses indicate that it is still a personality cult.

          • Malcolm Stevas

            Goodness! Have I been screaming like a teenage girl, frothing at the mouth? Be reasonable. I uttered praise for Farage’s position and the way he articulates it. This is hardly suggestive of a “personality cult”, something that applies more to places like Ghaddafi’s Libya, or N.Korea.

          • Toby Esterhase

            If you can’t stand criticism of your venal cult Leader, why do you bother with Disqus?

            Your opinions on the Tories match mine exactly, so we have common ground, but your hysterical and somewhat hilarious opening lines aside, you went off the rails.

            I have no idea why people come on here spouting the most egregious drivel about him. The prime, and most staggeringly stupid claim, is that UKIP had forced Cameron’s hand in calling this (utterly futile and inconsequential) EU referendum – which informed people find hysterically funny.

            Like Jabba the Cat (above), a rather erudite and pithy contributor to the Brexit cause. He tried to tell you (and he was spot on!), but you took grave offence at even that.

            You last comment is infantile to the point of idiocy. UKIP is an absolute waste of space and votes, and when it’s former Head of research thinks that, and with what I’ve seen, it’s good enough. You should know, you’ve been on his site often enough!

            http://eureferendum.com/blogview.aspx?blogno=85916

          • Malcolm Stevas

            Gosh… I wonder if you completely lack any sense of self-awareness? You rant about my being “hysterical” and “hilarious”, then engage in the most absurd hyperbole. “Grave offence”? Listen, chum, if I took grave offence at you, you’d know about it. Don’t be so silly. Don’t be so childishly defensive about your position. Clearly, like your feline friend you have some degree of animus toward Farage/UKIP. Tough luck – deal with it. Don’t expect others to think your emotional problems might be accepted, or even taken seriously, by everyone else.

          • Toby Esterhase

            That’s your response?

            Spectacularly infantile. Back to your Lego bricks and Ladybird books – I’ve seen pork pies with more brains.

          • big

            Malcolm this person,Toby, IS a cultist.

          • LittleRedRidingHood

            All the flexit lot do.
            I’m sure their work is intellectually sound and peer reviewed. But it is useless without a vehicle to communicate it to the masses.
            We the little people are not allowed to question the methods of the flexit group but are batted away as inferior beings.

          • big

            Oh i see you you have your own cult figure! does he live in Bradford by chance?

          • LittleRedRidingHood

            Ah you’re from disparaging Dr North flexit brigade and his cronies who do nothing more than belittle people they deem intellecually inferior to them or slate the other leave groups. I should have realised from your tone.
            The flexit idea whilst it being a pretty sound strategy is not being communicated in any way shape or form to anyone other than his little clique. The referendum will have been and gone by the time they mobilise.
            June 2016….. Tick tock!

          • Toby Esterhase

            “Ah you’re from disparaging Dr North flexit brigade…”

            I’m nothing of the sort (admittedly, I used to be, and then I recognise what you are saying later in that sentence as true, and like many, ceased visiting long ago.)

            You’re another one of those rather immature tr0ll-type posters; you see any contrary or alternative opinion as abuse / attack / ad hom – it really is quite pathetic.

            One thing I and a good few posters are fed up with on here is the constant stream of erroneous ‘Kipper garbage (such as ‘we’ve only got this referendum due to UKIP’) along with cultist adulation of Farage. I suspect this is the motivation for your diatribe. The UKIP leadership has totally betrayed the Eurosceptic cause, and Farage has no intention of seeing Brexit, as he’d lose a couple of million a year income.

            We then descend into silliness with:

            “The flexit idea whilst it being a pretty sound strategy is not being communicated in any way shape or form to anyone other than his little clique.”

            Out his generosity, he’s made “The Great Deception” (out of print), free to download. It is the most carefully researched, authoritative work I’ve read on the EU (about 45 books), and would stop a lot of EUrosceptics from spouting ill-informed nonsense, and not being taken seriously. Flexcit is also free, even though he intends to publish it as a book.

            As he’s been saying for months, Flexcit (sic) is a work still very much in development, because it is effectively a ‘groupwork’ and needs to adapt to current events. A team of people is working on condensing it into leaflets, etc – political party type literature – for delivery. He (North) is now the chief political strategist for the Leave.eu campaign (seemingly the only honest and legitimate one).

            Again, work of this nature should have come from UKIP, with it’s 24 22 MEPs and I’m told, 100 paid staff. Most of UKIP are still discussing “repealing the 1972 ECA”, which North explains simply, would lead to absolute disaster.

            Doubtless, you see all this as ‘gross abuse’.

          • LittleRedRidingHood

            Not at all, but I never mentioned UKIP either.

            That is the problem. 45 books. This has to appeal to the working class man and woman, not the elitist intellectuals.
            That has been his problem, but care to mention it and you get slapped down by him or his arrogant son.

            You display a similar arrogance in your tone, but it’s water off a ducks back to me. I’ll just dig in and respond when and how I see for.

            I’m angry, I’m sick of the EU dictators. I want out. As simple as that. I’m not interested in the minutae. Dr North has a view. He may be right, he may be wrong. I really don’t know.
            But one thing I know. The literature needs to succinct and powerful to reach the widest audience.

            Have you seen anything of the grassroots out GO material? Do you disagree with anything the speakers said, if so please highlight here because they are the only voice I’m hearing presently.

          • JabbaTheCat

            On the 25th July 1999 in a Meridian TV interview where Nigel Farage declared:

            “You will remember that right through (the 1999 Euro campaign) that we said we are not going on the gravy train; that we are the only people who are intending, annually, to publish so that the public can inspect them, our expense accounts, our allowance accounts, and the excess that we get – the excess that we are forced to take – particularly on travelling allowances, we are going to be putting into a trust fund and that money will be used to help victims of the European Union in our country, so I do reject the allegation that we’re on the gravy train and there’s certainly no chance of the three of us going native. ”

            Farage has never declared his expenses and allowances in all his 17 years as a MEP but he’s often boasted about how much money he’s got out of the EU, there’s never been a victims fund, and his wife is still firmly attached to the EU payroll…

          • Malcolm Stevas

            Yours is an argument, or position, often adopted by Leftists keen to disparage UKIP. I don’t think you’re a Leftist so it’s a pity you share their approach. Would it be preferable for Farage to have left the European Parliament and in consequence unable to see what goes on at first hand, speak in the chamber, and so on? His position as an MEP – and other UKIP MEPs, recalling which Party won the Euro elections – is wholly necessary, enabling him to speak with authority on the subject.
            Whatever monies have been paid to our MEPs are a minuscule drop in the ocean of the EU’s vast expenditure; your mention of “17 years” reminds me of the length of time the EU’s accounts have not been signed off by the auditors…

          • JabbaTheCat

            I’m not making an argument, just presenting you with a number of facts, that are in the public domain, highlighting the behaviour of a deceitful individual who, with his equally deceitful cabal, is detrimentally bed blocking part of the leave EU political space in this country.

            Your going into a round of whataboutery as a supposed justification for such behaviour really doesn’t cut it, deceit by these individuals is still deceit and wrong whichever way you look at it…

          • big

            Why are you so angry with UKIP?They are irrelevant! Its the mainstream political parties who sold Britain out.

          • Toby Esterhase

            There is (or wasn’t a few years ago) also no record of him donating a penny to the party in his own name.

          • JabbaTheCat

            That has been commented on within the party on a number of occasions over the years and added to the rather long list of resentments floating around…

      • Tom Cullem

        I will concede that – but Farage refusing to step aside and let someone with more gravitas, like Carswell, lead the LEAVE/UKIP campaign was a huge error. Farage got the party someplace, but his foibles made him unable to get past a certain point. And UKIP allowing him to do that was a piece of folly.

        • Malcolm Stevas

          There is something in what you say, but it was my starting to see Farage in a variety of foreign TV interviews, when the UK media were trying to sideline him, that helped draw me to UKIP. I’ve seen him in action, and he’s good. You refer to his “foibles” but for many, they make him more approachable, more everyday – and unlike most of the Tory & Labour front benches he has considerable experience of the real world outside politics.
          I’m not sure about Carswell. He’s very intelligent and able, but I doubt he has anything like the broad appeal of Farage.

        • milford

          I think he should have put Diane James or Suzanne Evans up front more. They’re both very eloquent and sensible and would have caught the attention of women voters, that manoeuvre would also have disable the misogynistic slander UKIP receive.. I’m convinced the nearer to power politicians get, the crazier they become.

        • Toby Esterhase

          More vanity than foibles, really. He’s usurped many a “UKIP spokesman’s” interview with TV channels, even though he knows nothing about anything.

  • Steven Whalley

    The ‘In’ campaign should have a great deal to worry about if only because the leaders of the respective ‘In’ parties are unlikely to get along together. The disparate natures of Cameron, Corbyn, Bennet, Farron, and Sturgeon, will all have to find a convincing common intellectual bond and publicly agreed joint narrative to make that orphan-poor diet of renegotiation work. Cameron managed to avoid sharing a platform with Nigel Farage at the general election, who is a very able opponent, but Cameron will not get away with avoiding his supposed allies in a public debate.

    He has to be seen to be yielding some influence on the In campaign to his ideological enemy Corbyn, for the sake of harmony, and in turn Corbyn will have to be seen to be best mates with Sturgeon. If you think that the ‘Leave’ campaign is yet to find its agreed voice, the fireworks, angst, scheming, and petty jealousies from the ‘Remain’ campaign as they jockey for position and try to suppress decades of mutual distrust, will truly be something to behold.

    • Alex

      I think it best if “Remain” is seen to be all Tories and other supposedly “sensible” people.

      • LittleRedRidingHood

        No the more lunatics the better.

  • max

    I don’t know if Forsyth is hoping to stir the panic agenda or just add to the BBC commentary of said panic.
    The Remain campaign is just as shambolic – Stuart Rose, is clearly acting as a placeholder, and no more, for the Mad Cow group. He will step side for DC once the pretence of ‘Government Purdah’ comes to an end.

    Joe Public has yet to be excited and will remain largely dormant on the issue for the next month or so. The UKIPPER’s aren’t about to turn Conservative even if the spines of Conservative MP’s turn to jelly in the face of a ‘Career Review’ moment.

    There is plenty of room for more ‘Events, dear boy’ before June and neither those in Brussels, or indeed Berlin, seem to have any chance of controlling the run up. What we do know is that the EU is unlikely to reform the CAP and gets its books through an Audit before the Summer so those events that do arise are extremely unlikely to favour the Remain camp.

    • Steven Whalley

      The choice of Stuart Rose to head the most public ‘Remain’ group, and naming it after Bovine Spongiform Encephylitis, must have dismayed even the most hardened Europhile. It may also have been revealing of the low esteem of the public held by the Euro Grandees.

      Who is in charge of the In campaign? Can anyone here who is an Inner, advise us?

      • Alex

        Of course, BSE was an overwhelmingly British problem. And Europe’s ban on imports was an example of tariffs, suspension of the single market, which Eurosceptics presumably like.

        The reason BSE was so bad in Britain is ascribed variously to relaxed temperature control regulations (i.e. “cutting red tape”) and importation of meal from India (i.e. “trading with the world”).

        • Toby Esterhase

          As I suspected, you know very little; you’ve even contradicted yourself in 3 or 4 posts.

          In the early 1980’s in England the rendering process (by which livestock carcasses are converted to various products, including protein supplements for livestock feed) was changed. Earlier, a solvent extraction step had been used to extract fats (tallow); this step was stopped when the price of the petroleum-based solvents used to extract fats went up. The infectious agent is solvent-sensitive. Otherwise, the infectious agent is extremely hardy — it could survive boiling and many disinfectants, but is readily destroyed by extremely high temperature (such as in an autoclave), or by oxidizing agents, or by solvents.

          The prime cause (according to the NFU’s scientists) was using sheep carcasses (where the ‘scrapie’ originated) processed into feed, and giving it to cows, which are herbivores.

          • Alex

            That is not a contradiction it’s the same thing I was talking about. The question is why did that happen here and not Europe? I suspect they maintained proper regulations (“red tape”) around this rendering process.

    • Conway

      Actually, I’m not sure that Joe Public is that dormant. I had somebody tell me today, en passant, that Cameron had got nothing in his “renegotiation” and the only way to really reform the EU was to vote to leave. It seems people are starting to wake up.

  • Richard Lally

    You EU haters are a pretty unpleasant bunch aren’t you?

    • Toby Esterhase

      No; we’re the salt of the Earth.

      You nation-state dismantlers are a deeply insidious, treacherous and nasty bunch, aren’t you?

      • Alex

        Well the EU is a putative nation-state. The UK was the same once and England before it. It’s how nation-states form. I doubt the proud Mercians or Northumbrians or whoever felt great about having to swear fealty to Wessex but these days it’s all water under the bridge and even England itself has been superseded by the UK.

        So your loyalty is to a (bloodier) EU analogue.

        • Toby Esterhase

          Kryste, Unbelievable.

          • Alex

            But nonetheless true, why a priori should the UK be a nation-state but not the EU?

          • LittleRedRidingHood

            Then you have no qualms about the referendum being put to the people.

          • Alex

            Not really no.

    • Bill Fitzgerald

      At least we are not one world loving traitors.

    • Tom Cullem

      Right-o. It’s the Goldman Sachs crowd pushing for a REMAIN vote who are the real sweethearts, eh?

    • 9sqn

      It’s not about hating the EU ( although, personally I do ) its about wishing our country to stay a sovereign nation with an elected parliament being able to make its own laws, a parliament that can be removed by its electorate, a country that controls its own agriculture, fisheries, defence and BORDERS. Its about a free country being able to negotiate its own trade deals with GROWING nations such as India and Australia. None of these are present under the existing EU regime. Does that make us unpleasant ? Then unpleasant I certainly am.

      • Alex

        We can do this already within the EU, as well as in contravention of its “laws” if we want.

        • 9sqn

          But we don’t. We should, but we don’t. GB abides by the EU rules whereby other countries, such as France, ignores them. Just one more reason why we should leave.

          • Alex

            Why does that mean we ought to leave? Why not just go ahead and ignore the rules, since we are powerful enough to do so.

            The reason we don’t ignore the rules, as I said, is that our politicians think they can get away with blaming Europe whenever they implement a law they know will screw people over.

            And the sad thing is, with the help of the tabloids and people’s credulity, they can.

            It has nothing to do with Europe forcing us to abide by the rules while letting France off. It doesn’t work like that, and Europe can’t even force us to obey using market forces as we are better off than France at least.

          • big

            Well said,but of course this isn’t what they want to here,and when they have left the EU and find out that nothing much has changed,they,will scream WE WERE CHEATED.

          • 9sqn

            If I may say, not only are you answering your own question but you seem to be contradicting it at the same time. My point is, if there are rules to being an EU member that we are powerful to ignore ( which we are ) then what is the point of the EU. If the rules of the EU are being obeyed by a government to cover it’s inadequacies / corruption, then the only recourse is to unmask those inadequacies and corruption by removing the mask, aka the EU, via a referendum. I mean, what is the point of the EU other than to make rules which should not be obeyed and to attempt to deny sovereignty to sovereign nations by tying them to the concept of ‘ever closer union’ i.e. a USE.
            You know, I get the strangest feeling you are a rather reluctant ‘inner’.

        • LittleRedRidingHood

          No we can’t.

    • WFC

      Oh. “Haters” is it?

      You lot really are one trick ponies, aren’t you?

    • LittleRedRidingHood

      The EU is a pretty unpleasant organisation.

  • Jack Rocks

    They’re in “crisis” (not really a crisis is it) because the Tories and Kippers don’t much like each other. It’s like Labour. You know, the far left and the far, far left. They don’t like each other much either.

    • Alex

      No because there are two campaign groups, then there is Farage too. Likely to be more dissent to come in the Tory cabinet than there actually has been in Labour, despite the headlines.

  • Jenny Wren

    Cos by definition, many are inward looking, selfish, egotistical chancers.

    • Conway

      Who? The pro-EU side? I agree. They only see what’s in it for them, rather than the country, they think they know best and they are little Europeans.

  • Bill Fitzgerald

    Another summer of young and able bodied male scroungers barging they way into Europe and more discord in Germany will focus Britain’s minds. Cameron will try to frighten people about security but Europe will again be seen in chaos and unable to protect it’s borders from invasion.

    • Alex

      Why are you all so desperate to paint the immigration as if it were an invading army? It seems such a strange and self-dramatising thing to think.

      • WFC

        Young men marching through Europe?

        Can’t imagine where the “invading army” comments might come from!

        • Alex

          Are they really marching, or is that just in your head?

          • WFC

            Really? “Marching”? That’s the only (or best) quibble you could think of?

          • Alex

            Well it is all the evidence you have offered for why they might be an army rather than just normal people walking cross-country…

          • WFC

            “Normal people walking cross-country”?

            Now you’ve gone and made a positive assertion whereby the burden of proof shifts to you!

          • Alex

            No, that is Occam’s razor.

          • Lista

            Quite a long cross country walk.

          • LittleRedRidingHood

            Are you really that dense?

      • LittleRedRidingHood

        Because there are few women and children in their numbers.
        Your wilful ignorance is quite astounding.
        Germany is on the bring of major civil unrest as a result of this immigration, as is Sweden, with Denmark and France not far behind. The e.g. have totally screwed over Italy and Greece and they are overrun and facing a crime epidemic.

  • martin davies

    Are they in crisis ? it’s only the press that seem to think so

    • milford

      Do you live under a rock?

  • Roger Hudson

    We were a sovereign nation once so we know how to legislate for clean beaches, clean coal, dynamic manufacturing ( if we got off our arses)and we could have British fish and food. We could stop corrupt Euro-automobile fiddles, we could be a global finance centre.
    Just make the British parliament the sole legislature, we were lied to about loss of sovereignty in ’75 and we are being conned again.
    A red card ? when has the UK ever got 14 other countries to support it ? never.
    Will we have migrant control,? no.
    Will we have a multi-currency Europe, no, only the UK and Denmark have an opt-out and the other 26 must have the Euro and the EU will continue to use every opportunity to bully the UK into having the Euro, no crisis will go by without them exploiting it.

    • Alex

      The British parliament is the sole legislature. We are powerful enough that we could easily ignore EU laws if we wanted to without even being kicked out. But it is more expedient to our nastier politicians to enact EU laws that they see can be used to exploit the people, and then turn around and whine that a bigger boy made them do it.

      Gee, I wonder why the UK has never got 14 countries to support it. It wouldn’t be 14 countries anyway, only we are archaic enough to use majorities for this kind of thing. It should be more countries than can form a cultural bloc, i.e. all the Scandinavians or the German-speaking countries or Baltics or whatever shouldn’t be able to block things unilaterally. So about 7 I would say.

      We have great migrant control anyway, both legal (no Schengen) and practical (the sea). Barely any immigrants have come here, it’s all been Germany, France, Italy and the people at Calais mad enough to want to come here are so few they would probably fit in the shed end at Dover Athletic.

      Exactly, we have an opt-out, so why are you complaining? More special snowflake treatment that apparently isn’t enough for whinging Brits. Other EU countries joined after the ERM was made up so that was a condition of joining, and they joined in full knowledge. If we are this rich booming economy that Europe can’t afford to lose it’s a bit pathetic if we then turn around and claim we feel overborne by their Euro.

      This sums up Eurosceptic Brits. Whinging on about things that aren’t really true, that they have already been given special treatment for, or that won’t make any difference if stopped because they don’t actually happen, despite what the tabloids say.

      • Social Justice Warrior

        good post. The EU has kept the peace in Europe for 40 years. If we leave I fear we’ll see wars erupt across the continent

        • WFC

          Nothing to do with NATO then?

        • uberwest

          If you forget about Yugoslavia, Georgia and Ukraine, yes I see your point.

        • Pioneer

          You are seriously deluded.

        • Toby Esterhase

          Amazingly stupid. Doubtless you’re a graduate? – this level of insidious brain-washing is only available in universities these days.

          • Todd Unctious

            Where did you get your bit of knowledge? Janet and John.

          • Toby Esterhase

            King Edward Vi Grammar, B’ham and Liverpool Universities.

            Where did you get yours, the abattoir floor?

        • LittleRedRidingHood

          The EU has not kept the peace. NATO has kept the peace. The EU is the instigator in the Civil war that will erupt across Europe imminently with or without our exit.

          Where have you been?
          Have you been so lost in your cultural Marxist utopia that you haven’t seen Europe falling apart.

          These utopian ideals you keep spouting are pure fantasy.

          Are comfortable with what our wives and children are having to face?

          You are a lunatic.

      • uberwest

        Hardly any immigrants? Only the usual 600,000 per annum, plus 100,000 ‘refugee’ chancers or so.

        • Alex

          That is, less than 1% a year. If only the cost of housing, services etc had gone up by so little, and wages down by so little.

          Ever thought these problems might be due to how we keep on electing idiot fiscal contractionists into government rather than scary foreign people?

          I wish it was due to immigration: the economic impact would have been far less severe.

          • uberwest

            What is the immigration rate into Japan? Even 0.01% would be too high.

          • Alex

            Why would it be too high? The fact that house prices etc grow far faster than 1% tells us immigration is not the cause. Surely by definition immigration is too high when it has a significant adverse effect on the economy. Which it plainly does not.

          • uberwest

            Because it’s not wanted, except by deluded, vicious, self-hating liberal creeps.

            ‘The fact that house prices etc grow far faster than 1% tells us immigration is not the cause.’

            You may or may not of convinced yourself of this, but you will never convince me. If it weren’t for immigration, the population would be falling, leading to a glut of housing.

            Do you actually believe the economy is in a healthy state?

          • Alex

            Of course I don’t believe the economy is in a healthy state, it’s just that it has nothing to do with immigration.

            Will I not even convince you if I point out that relevant economic indicators like unemployment, long-term unemployment, house prices, doctors per capita, GDP, GDP per capita, have absolutely no correlation with increases in immigration/net migration, either the Commonwealth immigration post-1997 or the Eastern European immigration post-2004. Seriously, just look up the graphs.

            Would you be as aggrieved if the British population grew by 1% more per year, i.e. every fiftieth woman had an extra child? If not, I don’t see how you can claim you are anything other than a xenophobe.

          • Alex

            Alternatively we could use the extra tax contributions of the extra people (whatever nationality they may be) to build extra houses.

            Why must the population of a country reduce itself to fit inside a mystical fixed number of houses? It’s Procrustean madness.

          • uberwest

            ‘Alternatively we could use the extra tax contributions of the extra people (whatever nationality they may be) to build extra houses.’

            What extra tax contributions? What makes you think that immigrants are net tax sources as opposed to net tax drains? The economy is in deficit as it is, and immigrants are more likely to be unemployed or in low wage (and therefore low or zero tax) jobs.

          • Alex

            But if there were no immigrants the jobs available wouldn’t magically change would they? The only difference would be a British person doing them instead of an immigrant and paying low tax.

            Tax contributions increase according to jobs. Jobs open up according to demand. Demand increases when you have more people. These people require more houses. More houses can be built with the extra tax contributions.

            In the end everything increases commensurately so it’s no different whether you have none or ten million immigrants.

          • uberwest

            ‘But if there were no immigrants the jobs available wouldn’t magically change would they?.

            How do you know? With higher disposable income, thanks to lower required levels of taxation, people may be more inclined to spend, boosting the economy and helping create jobs in manufacturing and services.

            ‘The only difference would be a British person doing them instead of an immigrant and paying low tax.’

            British workers are more likely to spend money in the UK than send it to foreign countries to help out ‘family back home’.

            ‘In the end everything increases commensurately so it’s no different whether you have none or ten million immigrants.’

            No, with higher immigration crime increases disproportionately, requiring more spending on counter-terrorism, policing, courts, lawyers, prisons, insurance.

            For every thirty immigrant children, a new classroom and teacher is needed.

            For every 1,400 or so immigrants a new GP is needed and so on.

            More traffic on roads requiring more road-building, more cost, less green space.

            More demand on the power grid, with no real plan to deal with it, since wind-turbine don’t do the job.

            Less green space in and around the cities, housing devalued in areas with high numbers of immigrants.

          • Alex

            All those gripes would be just the same with a higher native population. And all would be resolved by using the taxes of the extra population at the same level as the existing.

          • uberwest

            ‘All those gripes would be just the same with a higher native population’

            Well I don’t believe that they would. For instance the terrorist threat would all but disappear, fewer people would be in prison. British couples have fewer children on average than certain immigrant groups, and they pay more tax, so the burden of schooling would be more manageable. Housing prices would be more consistent across the country, with fewer high price (white flight areas) and low price (immigrant enriched) ghettoes.

          • Alex

            Well those are social issues.

            Again, why not just build a school. OK the kids can’t directly pay for it yet but just build it on credit and just have the kids pay it back when they grow up.

            The thing about those “certain immigrant groups” is unlike European immigrants they never go back. This is good when recouping investment per the above, but not for other things because they require NHS care in old age, blah blah. For this reason I prefer European immigrants to Commonwealth ones.

            Ghettoisation is natural, but it can be managed by expanding social housing. Then people can be told where to live to a greater extent and mixed communities can be enforced. Leaving it all up to the market creates ghettoisation and rent/price extremes as you say.

          • uberwest

            Well there you go, all of your fixes require greater public expenditure – we’re already in deficit remember – paid for disproportionately by the native British population, along with national / local government coercion, to ‘fix’ problems caused by a policy (immigration) which the majority of the native British population do not want or need. This is not how democracies should work.

          • Alex

            But with immigration there are commensurately more people to pay for this greater public expenditure…

            …this probably being why specific and general economic indicators don’t have any correlation with waves of immigration.

            It’s really not difficult to understand, even for a Procrustean like you, that if the amount of people goes up then demand goes up, jobs go up, the tax take goes up and provision of various public services can go up. So per capita it remains about the same, and nobody has to chop off their legs.

            Sure there are some externalities both bad and good with immigration but they are simply not big enough to make any difference.

            Indeed usually the place where the above equation breaks down is in the tax take and providing public services bit. Governments – particularly idiot fiscal conservative ones – are happy to take the tax but tight-fisted when it comes to spending it.

            Thus we end up paying twice, out of our own pocket for things we used to get in return for our taxes. A public sector surplus is a private sector deficit: this is an accounting fact. (And you just know it won’t be the big businesses or the wealthy who are shouldering that private sector deficit, it’ll be you and me.)

            Incidentally EU immigrants are the only group who are a net benefit to the public purse presumably because they don’t bring over armies of dependents or retire here. Non-EU immigrants and natives weigh on our public services in old age and via bringing over non-working families.

          • uberwest

            ‘But with immigration there are commensurately more people to pay for this greater public expenditure.’

            Already explained that immigrants are more likely to be unemployed or in low wage jobs. If you don’t accept that then say so. You may have a larger population, but lower net tax revenues to pay for the national infrastructure, and even lower government spending per head of population.

  • pobinr

    It’s EUroskeptic
    Not Euroeskeptic

  • milford

    ‘I want to remain in a REFORMED EU!’ says he. It’s hardly reformed is it. They won’t even let him tinker with his own benefits let alone reform Them. Pathetic.

    • Alex

      Why should there be special rules for Britain?

      • Mongo

        because we (the electorate) never consented to join in the first place

        • Alex

          Neither did the electorates of any of the other countries, other than of course the method we use to determine a political mandate, that is, voting in a party that has EU membership in its manifesto.

          I agree that any constitutional issue should be put to a referendum, but there’s no special merit in having a referendum to join rather than joining and then having a referendum on it afterwards, as we did.

          • Stuart Mackey

            There is plenty of merit in it, the public have every right to withdraw consent for legal or constitutional matters they no longer agree with.

          • 9sqn

            Or never gave consent to in the first place. Does anybody believe that if what we have now were put to a referendum in 1975, GB would vote yes to ?

      • Lista

        Eurogeddon is too of putting.

  • Conway

    So this ought to be the moment of Eurosceptic triumph. Instead, the movement is in chaos.” Only in the mind of those people who don’t speak to the person in the street. Anyway, we’re no longer sceptic, we’re absolutely positive that the EU is bad for the UK and bad for Europe (the continent).

    • Pioneer

      The EU is a vile authoritarian organization.

  • Social Justice Warrior

    this is a nation founded by immigrants.

    disappointed by all the close-mindedness I’m seeing here

    • David Prentice

      Take your virtue signalling, mangina, and stick it where the sun doesn’t shine.

      • Social Justice Warrior

        take your bigotry away from here. Noody wants to read the rantings of loathsome Kippers

        • Toby Esterhase

          We don’t want to read the ravings of pluralist mor0ns either.

          “Social Justice Warrior” – cluel3ss bell3nd, more like.

          • Social Justice Warrior

            why do you hate foreigners so much?

          • Lista

            Which foreigners are you refering to? You were talking about British founding fathers like the Huguenots ( your view, not I imagine anyone else’s). Heaven forbid you are being a tad xenophobic.

          • Social Justice Warrior

            Europhobes are little Englanders who generally hate ALL foreigners, even other Brits from Scotland, Wales and Ireland

          • uberwest

            I hate the EU, not foreigners. I can appreciate foreign cultures whilst on holiday on the continent. The french can stay french, the germans german and so on, as far as I’m concerned. You on the other hand, loathe national cultures and want to see British, French, German culture bulldozed into some Frankenstein entity ruled by communists in a reanimated EUSSR. What a repulsive little fascist twerp you are.

          • Social Justice Warrior

            zzzz…booooring

            I want to see a united Europe as a single nation ruled by one government. People can still keep their cultures and languages and food

            in this way there will be no more war

          • Ivan Ewan

            Except on the losing side of one.

          • rolandfleming

            Previous attempts to create ‘a united Europe as a single nation ruled by one government’ have generally involved quite a lot of killing (because the people didn’t want it)

            Incidentally, your desire is the minority one across the continent.

          • 9sqn

            Which particular particular government may I ask ? One you choose perhaps, or one chosen by some bloke in Belgium ? Do they let you out very often ?

          • LittleRedRidingHood

            It hasn’t worked so far.
            You seriously are suffering from a mental illness if you think what is happening in Europe right now is anyway harmonious.

          • Toby Esterhase

            Moronic.

            Because the Scots are so tolerant of the English. Now I know you’re definite tr0ll.

          • big

            Toby why are you so angry?

          • Toby Esterhase

            I’m not. Why are you so childish? Do big words and complex ideas frighten you?

          • big

            No Toby you sound very angry,seriously.

          • Toby Esterhase

            Donate your computer to charity and see a doctor.You’ll be all right.

          • big

            Toby are you troll?

          • 9sqn

            Me, I just hate you.

          • LittleRedRidingHood

            Really, I’m from Irish, Italian and polish stock.
            Boom, there goes another lefty generalisation.
            The real world is coming to bite you in your cultural Marxist sock puppet ar$e.

          • Toby Esterhase

            I don’t. I have 5 Europeans working in my team of 43 people at work, and revel in foreign travel, cuisines, languages, arts, films and customs. I just don’t want my country used as a doormat or dumping ground – ANYMORE! – especially by Leftist / Labour party garbage.

            Here, Ladies and Gentleman, we have the naked and unalloyed stupidity of the Left. With absolutely no knowledge of the person or their posting history, based on ONE post, he asks:

            “why(sic) do you hate foreigners so much?

            A great pity you didn’t study something more than “diversity and gender”, you might have known to start sentences in English with a capital letter. And end them with a full stop. A “progressive education”, no doubt.

            “disappointed (sic) by all the close(sic)-mindedness I’m seeing here(sic)

            …he said with a hilariously inadequate sense of irony.

          • LittleRedRidingHood

            Where did he say he did?
            Your immediate fallback position. I’m surprised you’ve not used the ‘R’ word yet.

            You obviously have no problems with warped social engineering exercises that change communities wholesale with no integration.

        • LittleRedRidingHood

          Cultural Marxism isn’t cool. It is ripping apart the western world.

          Anyone who doesn’t bow to the narrative is a far right kipper?

          Please.

          You lefties are running out of ideas. You are rumbled, your days of cultural vandalism are coming to an end one way or another.

    • WFC

      Which immigrants, do you say, “founded” this nation?

      • Social Justice Warrior

        anglo saxons, Normans, Hugenots, Ugandan Asians, East Europeans, Muslims and every other group who has contributed greatly to making Britain what it is

        • WFC

          So … What did the Normans do to improve England?

          • Social Justice Warrior

            they built castles

          • WFC

            The purpose of those castles – here and in France – was to make it more easy to strip the peasants of their property, liberty, and the fruits of their labour. So greedy did those castle dwelling barons and “knights” become that even the church felt compelled to intervene.

          • Cobbett

            Warmonger eh?

          • Todd Unctious

            They gave us our modern language, our uniquely useful legal system, a treasure trove of great castles and our Gothic churches and cathedrals. Probably the greatest art treasure in Northern Europe.

        • Alex

          England you could say was founded by immigrants if you really wanted to but I don’t think by the 900s any of them, especially not people from Wessex, felt especially close to Germany or Scandinavia.

          The Normans then created a new state although it was still called England. They however were not immigrants but an invading force (while the Saxons and Danes had been raiders rather than armies).

          However Great Britain and the United Kingdom were patently not founded by immigrants. And they are not nations but political unions, ironically more like the EU than like England.

          • jeremy Morfey

            I think I am with SJW on this one, since a lot of the Wessex culture you admire actually was a remnant of Roman civilisation, which the conquered Britons assimilated, many of whom actually breeding with Roman legionaries and enjoying their protection from tribal skirmishes.

            It has been an evolutionary process over two millennia, and each influence brought with it their own gifts – Christmas trees from Germany, bungalows from India, it is said the Muslims taught the modern British to wash (but they may have got that from the Romans), the Normans built grand churches, the Jews entertained us and financed our businesses… It continues to this day with Polish plumbers and dentists, Romanian pickpockets and hackers, and on and on.

            Unlike the United States though, our indigenous culture remained supreme, bending and evolving with time rather than being pushed into reservations. This is why the US-inspired black and white ethnic definitions, consistent with their subordinated indigenous / dominant settler / slave ancestries is inappropriate in Britain.

          • Alex

            I don’t know that the Wessex lot were Romano-British, OK they were probably the most admixed with Romano-British of anyone in England but they were (Anglo-) Saxons when it came down to it.

            I don’t admire them, don’t know where you got that from, but they were the ones who built the English nation by the pen and the sword.

            I totally agree about the USA

          • Todd Unctious

            Most British DNA is traced back to Spain about 4,000 years ago. So yes we are mainly immigrants.

          • Toby Esterhase

            More BS.

          • Alex

            Duh, but that is a facile way of looking at it, if so then why don’t we go back a few more years and then we’re all Africans etc etc.

            Plus the entities we recognise today, England, UK etc, were not founded at that point.

          • Todd Unctious

            So you freeze Englishness at some point in the late dark ages and any new arrivals since are unwelcome and foreign.

          • Alex

            No, it has nothing to do with Englishness, I am talking about the English state. It was not “founded by immigrants” because by the time it was founded the people who founded it had been here for centuries and had their own culture distinct from the countries they originally came from – particularly as it was Wessex which took the lead, not one of the more rawly Norse areas. Certainly England has been influenced by immigrants since, as well as a host of other factors internal and external, but it wasn’t founded by them.

            In fact the Norman invaders re-established the English state in 1066, although they kept the name, so really the England/UK which we know today is a state founded by conquerors, not immigrants or natives.

          • Todd Unctious

            That’s okay by me. I am from Devon. Along with Cornwall these were not in the Anglo-Saxon heptarchy. We share no genes with you English and resent all your Brummies buying up our guesthouses and barn conversions.

          • Alex

            No doubt, I would too. Having been on holiday to Cornwall and Devon many times the empty second homes and lifestyle SUVs etc sicken me.

            Be careful, undoubtedly you share “genes” with us, but not culture, especially not at that time.

          • Todd Unctious

            Recent studies by Prof Donnelly at Oxford show otherwise. Devonians are not English. This fierce independence carried through to WW1 when Devon had the lowest volubteering rate. We simply did not want to fight the Englishman’s war.
            The Cornish share DNA with the people of Pembrokeshire for obvious reasons.

          • Alex

            So I see, although I suspect it is more that the rest of England is mixed because it is more mobile, and of course where you draw the line is arbitrary with these things.

            Dorset is connected to London but Devon isn’t really. This makes “English genes” likely to stop at the border because people/the businesses they serve will move as far as Dorset but no further. It seems the same happens up north when you get 1. beyond the major regional cities and 2. outside the corridor from them to London.

          • Todd Unctious

            Interesting isn’t it? Glaswegians link with Belfast is strong too and the Gogs of N Wales have nothing in common with the Valleys. As for Orkney !!

          • LittleRedRidingHood

            Do you think what is happening in Germany, Sweden, France, Greece, Italy and Austria is good for any of those countries.

          • 9sqn

            Go back a bit further and you’ll probably find the odd trace of monkey in there too. But we’re not all monkeys, as I’m sure you’ve worked out.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            True, just the Humans among us.

            (Sarcasm)

          • 9sqn

            I think you unfathomable posts are best left unanswered. Hung by you own petard, so to speak.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            “you unfathomable posts”

            Yea, don’t think much do you? And try ESOL lessons.

            (And that’s not at all what that phrase means)

        • 9sqn

          You are clearly an idiot.

          • mdj

            Relax, it’s a troll.

        • Cobbett

          What jobs?

        • Todd Unctious

          You forgot Celts, Romans, Vikings, Italians, Jews, Hindus, Sikhs and Chinese.

        • TheJustCity

          Reaching a bit there with the Mohammedans. The nation has a sovereign right to be able to filter which immigrants it chooses to permit entry and which to deny. Try this for the sake of intellectual and moral consisitency: immigration is a privilege not a right; Islam is an ideology not a race.

    • Ivan Ewan

      You’re a parody, aren’t you?

    • St Louis

      Pompous jerk.

    • LittleRedRidingHood

      That old nutshell.

  • LoveMeIamALiberal

    “for the ‘change proposition’ in a referendum to win (‘out’ in this case), it normally needs to be ten points ahead before the campaign starts.”

    What nonsense. Not the case in the Scotland independence referendum. The UK has held too few referendums to credibly reach any such conclusion.

    The polls are all over the place, except that even the ones showing the biggest advantage to Remain show a swing to Leave over the last year. The only conclusion to draw is that the more this matter is debated the more Leave wins. Even Cameron knows this which is why he wants the referendum asap.

  • StringyJack

    It’s hard to see what advantages Britain gains from EU membership. Britain is a net funder, so the country would be financially better off whithout having to send all those taxpayer pounds over to Brussels each year. All the economic advantages of trade and capital flows can be retained without EU membership. Switzerland trades freely with all its EU neighbours without being an EU member. Switzerland is also more prosperous than its EU neighbours. Britain already has its own currency, giving it a degree of financial autonomy that Greece can only dream about. Britain is not a member of the Schengen zone, so already has stronger border control over illegal immigration than EU nations. Britain is a member of NATO, so does not need the EU for defence purposes. Britain is a permanent member of the UN Security Council, so does not need the EU to enhance its national prestige, or voice in the world. I don’t get it. What does the EU give you, other than standardised sausages, that you cannot get through the normal channels of international trade and diplomacy. It seems to me that the EU is nothing but a drain on your economy and a threat to your national sovereignity. Can one of you natives please explain why you would want to remain in that moribund organisation and what benefits you think it gives you?

    • Mongo

      apparently the benefits include cheaper roaming charges, the ability to watch BBC abroad and better footballers

      • WFC

        I remember watching the BBC in America. Are they in the EU now?

        • Mongo

          query it with the Inners – it’s their claim.

          in any case it’s easy enough to circumvent iPlayer restrictions using a non-geographic proxy so it’s lagely irrelevant, like most of their outlandish claims

      • Todd Unctious

        What the hey is cheaper roaming charges?

      • Toby Esterhase

        They’ve already outlawed roaming charges within the EU, coming soon.

        The only good thing it’s done in 40 years.

    • Social Justice Warrior

      for a start, over 3 million jobs depend on us being in the EU. We also benefit from the rich cultural diversity it brings us

      • StringyJack

        International trade creates jobs and immigration brings diversity but you can have the benefits of trade and immigration without EU membership. My country has more of both than the UK without being encumbered by EU membership. We also have BBC World, global roaming and better footballers (esp. in rugby union and league). It seems that EU supporters are conflating the benefits of globalisation with EU membership, when in reality, the former is not contingent on the latter.

        • 9sqn

          I almost agree. The only bit you got completely and utterly wrong was the bit about rugby union. Unless you’re in NZ of course, which from the football comment, you’re probably not.

          • StringyJack

            NZ is a beautiful country: prosperous, multicultural, free and independent of those Brussels bureacrats who rule Europe. It produces the best rugby union players in the world,’ with no help from the EU. But it wasn’t the All Blacks who knocked England out of the Rugby World Cup. The vanquishers of the Olde Enemy wore gold.

      • jeremy Morfey

        Am I imagining it, but since the 1960s the French have become less French, the Germans less German, the Greeks less Greek, and the British less British? There was a hit song ‘Melting Pot’ where, far from diversity, we all ended up some putty-coloured conformist mush with precious little culture other than the language of Big Business management speak and political correctness. ‘Diversity’ is redefined by mating with those ever similar to ourselves, and God help those who dare to express diverging views in polite ‘safe space’ company.

      • WFC

        Ah … There’s that “3 million jobs” again.

        Exactly the same “3 million jobs” which depended on us joining the Euro.

      • 9sqn

        Total bollocks dreamed up by an American study 10 years ago and revived by the ‘IN’ campaign due lack of .. well, anything else really. Yes, 3 million jobs are directly involved in trading with the EU. But the UK is a net importer with the EU, so does anybody credibly imagine that after a Brexit, all trade between GB and the EU would cease ? Such a situation would plunge the EU into a recession within weeks and probably bankrupt Germany for one. The saddest part of your argument is that the propaganda from the ‘we’re not good enough to do it alone’ crew has stuck with someone.

      • Yorkieeye

        That old chestnut! So just which jobs would be lost? Because the EU will not stop buying our goods in case we stop buying theirs.

      • Yorkieeye

        That old chestnut! So just which jobs would be lost? Because the EU will not stop buying our goods in case we stop buying theirs.

        • Todd Unctious

          He is right though.

          • Toby Esterhase

            One mor0n calling another “right” doesn’t make it so.

          • LittleRedRidingHood

            Elaborate.

            Because I can make up a number as well.

            3 billion jobs depend on the UK being in the EU….but I can’t say which jobs where.

        • Toby Esterhase

          Pile of horse**** would be more accurate!

          Sarah Teather, Lib Dem MP spouted this “3 million jobs” garbage on Question Time some years ago, and Peter Hitchens went of it. He kept asking “where does that number come from?” and she burbles, bluster, and turned post-box red. Classic.

          Beware – “Social…” and Todd Obnoxious are (possibly paid) EU trolls.

          • mdj

            it may well come from the CBI….which is funded by the EU.
            In any case, many more jobs in the EU depend on trade with the UK, because we have a trade deficit with them.

          • Toby Esterhase

            I think it might be, but everyone spouts it, and no-one dares speak up to won it.

            A Tory EUrosceptic MP (don’t remember which) couple of years ago said it was 5 million jobs depend on UK membership.

          • mdj

            David Davies’ exposition this week is well worth studying in detail, the best I’ve seen. Labour are completely shamed by the absence of a similar voice on their side.
            I voted No in 1975 when Labour’s stance was against the ‘Rich Men’s Club’. However, the EU has made quite a lot of Labour politicians rich men since then.
            Davies could have made much more of the fact that the percentage of our GDP that is traded with the EU is little up from the same figure for our trade with the EEC 6-before we joined the EEC! (The EU, to press the point, being twice the size).
            Look at what has happened to the Commonwealth’s share of world trade over the last 40 years, and weep.

          • Toby Esterhase

            Quite! I wanted Davies to win the Leadership; half the Tory members resigned when Cameron became PM.

            I trust you’ve seen “This Sceptic Isle” by Peter Hitchens? It was shown once, in the very earliest days of BBC Four on digital. Part 1 (of 6) is here (total 1 hr.) – the full version I had was mysteriously corrupted, when I lost 6 hard drives in 7 years, with all my research on them! It is quite a brilliant piece of work.

            In research for my book, I asked 8 major outfits / think tanks if they had a record, by year or total, of our trade balance with the EU and predecessors.

            “No”. Not 1 of them!

            HM Treasury, Open Europe (funded by Tories), Taxpayers Alliance, etc, etc. Based on my own crude and unscientific calculations, I estimated a £900 billion deficit since Jan 1973. We had a £10 billion deficit in 2009 just on food.

            Wouldn’t you think if being in the EU was that beneficial, they’d be bandying a +ve figure around to keep us in?

            And you’re spot on about the Commonwealth, all outside the EU so subject to EU trading policy. Which means we get ****ed.

          • Roger Hudson

            I voted ‘out’ in ’75, i had listened and understood the sovereignty argument , it’s still current today.
            Seeing the whole C4 film on Youtube made me sick to see Heath’s smug face.
            I also voted for DD as leader so am furious at Cameron’s Heathite lies.

          • UKSteve

            I missed the vote by a few months accident of birth.

            What people don’t realise is, how much the anti-war message was pushed. It sort of went like this

            “WW1 and 2 both started in Europe, and caused horrific loss of life, devastating damage to national infrastructures, at an unbearable cost. But now, we’re in the nuclear age, and another war is almost unthinkable. As Einstein said, “I don’t know what weapons WW3 will be fought with, but WW4 will be fought with stick and stones.

            So we must form a trading union to eliminate the threat of war, and work towards rebuilding our countries in common and co-dependent prosperity.”

            It was the perfect message for my parent’s generation, who brought us through the war.

            Businessmen were told it would massively boost their prosperity by collapsing trade barriers via agreements – NOT treaties – and this was even more the case in Wilson’s 1975 referendum, in which the CIA took part – their recently-formed “Psychological Warfare Operations Research Unit” – fresh out of Vietnam.

            In the originally aired documentary, the producer asked Benn about he referendum and he said: “Well it was rigged!” I thought “He was Energy Minister in Wilson’s Cabinet!”

            I don’t know why it isn’t in the 6 parts.

            See if you can get a copy of the CD-ROM “Shoehorned into the EU” by David Barnby.

            http://www.cambridgeclarion.org/press_cuttings/mi6.eu_stel_27apr1997.html

            This is now free – and invaluable:
            http://www.eureferendum.com/blogview.aspx?blogno=85035

          • Roger Hudson

            The EEC/EU was seen by many politicians in the 1970s as a way Britain could make up for it terrible low productivity without having to do the real heavy lifting (investment, management, re-structuring) by using ‘services’ to give a false sense of prosperity. Remember Douglas Adams and the ‘telephone sanitiser’ type jobs, very EU friendly dossing.

          • UKSteve

            Wow! Amazing post.

            You’ve resurrected an ancient memory in me, Roger!

            We had a ‘telephone cleaner’ at my first job, a factory office in ‘Brum’ 1970’s! A woman used to come round with J cloths and a spray and do each one.

            That’s amazing. Pardon my ignorance, but what’s the Douglas Adams (great man) connection?

      • St Louis

        Either you are just not paying attention, or you are a world class ironist and I salute you.

      • Yorkieeye

        One of the EUs biggest fears is that an out UK with it’s own currency would become a safe haven for EU members cash reserves. Making us a mini Switzerland.

      • Chris Taylor

        5 million EU jobs depend on the UK. Why would any of those jobs be lost? This is a discredited argument. Find something better.

      • LittleRedRidingHood

        I hope you are being sarcastic.
        Because that is the total bollox being spread like manure by the in brigade.
        What jobs are these?
        How will they be lost?

  • _Gareth_

    “But to up-end the status quo, a risk-averse electorate needs some sort of vision of Britain’s future outside the EU.”

    Remaining in the EU is not ‘the status quo’. Remaining would be to continue along the path of ever closer union.

    • Social Justice Warrior

      which is a good thing. Unity is always better than division

      • jeremy Morfey

        Not if what we are forced into unity with is rotten. Arbeit macht frei, remember?

      • Ivan Ewan

        And liberty is always better than enslavement.

      • Todd Unctious

        What about the Anschluss?

  • maic

    James makes a valid point. On political and social issues you have to be for something – not just blindly against. Does anyone have any comment on what led up to the Swiss not joining the EU? Was there a referendum on the issue or did their government just make the decision for the people?

    • Social Justice Warrior

      The Swiss never join anything. they’re isolationists

      • maic

        Let me put it another way. The Swiss did not join the EU. How was this decision arrived at?
        a) By the government without consulting the citizens?
        b) By the government after consultation with the citizens?
        c) By the body of citizens themselves using either their power to block government legislation or by initiating a binding referendum?
        Does anyone know the actual details?

        • Ivan Ewan

          It’s common knowledge that the Swiss have a more direct democracy than probably any other country in Europe. They have local, public debates over a great deal of legislation.

          • Todd Unctious

            They are also hugely bigoted and greedy.

          • Ivan Ewan

            “the [biological group] are all [something immoral]”

            Yeah, that’s not bigoted at all.

          • St Louis

            Sounds as if it takes one to know one..

          • maic

            Come on! That’s an unworthy comment. You can hardly claim to know what is in the hearts and minds of millions of citizens in another country. I suggest that the Swiss show a political maturity which has helped them avoid the current migrant shambles in Europe. Their political system also reflects the principle that the politicians are the servants of the people and that, in the end, the people will have the final say on deeply felt and controversial issues. Where else in the world do citizens have such defining power in the government of their country?

          • UKSteve

            he only makes unworthy comments. Seen his history?

          • maic

            Now I don’t claim to be an expert but I have researched further. It seems that Switzerland’s relationship with the EU has been guided by a series of referenda – some of which strengthened ties with the EU and some which defined an independent path which the EU would not accept or agree to. e.g. a quota system for migrants.
            Some of the referenda results were quite close
            The people debate the issue, the vote is taken and the losers seem to accept the result..
            Government of the people by the people for the people seems to actually mean something in Switzerland.
            I wonder what the political scene in Britain would be like if the Swiss system of Direct Democracy had been in place when the EU was first formed.

        • Todd Unctious

          Switzerland is the tax haven of choice for Germany, France and Italy. They were told to stay out to help the rich avoid tax.

        • St Louis

          They had a referendum and refused to join. Very wise. And they have a lot of referendums, both at national and cantonal level.

  • Yorkieeye

    What happened to David Davies? Articulate and personable he would be a good front man. He knows how to talk to people.

  • jeremy Morfey

    There was an excellent point made this morning on R4.

    Why should small businesses or sole traders anywhere in the member states abide by Single Market trade regulations designed to regulate and harmonise cross-border participation, but hardly relevant when the only trade is local?

    Goldman Sachs has come out in favour of remaining in the EU as it has been set up.

    • http://www.workinprogress.com Nicetime

      The ‘social provisions’ are the be all and end all of the left’s infatuation with the EU. It’s what Delores used to convince the Labour party and the TUC in the late 80s. At the time of course, they needed some recourse outside the scope of the British electorate in order to get their agenda enacted, and it seems their faith in British democracy hasn’t improved

  • Julie A.

    They are divided because in the end it is in their nature to despise with immense bitterness and hatred, everybody else.

    Splitters just cannot work with others over the medium & long-term.

  • Tom

    I personally don’t see the problem with more than one out camp the key thing is that everybody want’s the same outcome .

    • Marvin

      I think that the OUT campaigns, instead of always being on the back foot trying to defend the dangers of the unknowns of being outside the EU, should in turn detail the vast disadvantages and losses of remaining.

      • LittleRedRidingHood

        Those disadvantages are becoming more apparent every single day.
        Just don’t rely the the BBC for the information.

  • Marvin

    The senior OUT campaigners seem to be more interested in self promotion and a thirst to lead rather then to put their weight behind the enormous fight to govern our own country against odds stacked against us by the deceitful bogus Status Quo.

    • LittleRedRidingHood

      Only the Westminster set. The grassroots out GO campaign is the movement that will move the nation. Why? Because they are concentrating on the referendum rather than their careers

      http://grassrootsout.co.uk

      I suggest you view the event in Manchester .

      http://livestream.com/accounts

  • Cobbett

    ”More seriously, voters have been told that the average consumer saves
    £450 a year because of the EU — a claim that can be sourced to an
    American study of how prices have been kept down by globalisation”

    Is that it…£450 a year? You would have thought globalsisation would have saved us countless thousands…but in the end it’s only a weeks boozing.

    • http://batman-news.com James Mackie

      Prices are massively inflated because of the EUs VAT rules on food, clothing, childrens books.
      Prices are massively inflated because of the EUs Common Agricultural Policy.
      Prices are massively inflated because of the EUs tariffs on goods from outside the EU.

      Look at the prices in duty free for example , if you are travelling from outside the EU , then everything is 20% CHEAPER compared to if you are travelling inside the EU, take a look next time.

      LEAVE are 10% ahead and growing, the public are well informed now through social media and internet,; they no longer have to rely on the entrenched established elites.

      • Hagen vanTronje

        My Wife and I compared the Prices of goods and services during last summers Holiday to the USA, against UK/Europe prices.
        My Wife promised never to shop in Europe ever again !

        • For Whom the Troll Bells

          The difference in prices between the UK/EU and the USA is predominantly due to UK/EU VAT being 20% or close to that, and US Sales Tax typically being around 5% down to zero in some states. Remember also, that the price ticket in the US is before tax. It is true that prices in the US are usually less than those in the UK but the margin is by no means as wide as you might think. If your wife has promised never to shop in Europe again, that could be a mixed blessing as the cost of the air fare to, presumably, the US will more than wipe our any savings you might make by shopping there.

          • Hagen vanTronje

            My Wife mentioned better choice as well and you don’t get bothered by shop assistants hovering over your shoulder.
            I bought my Ray-Ban Shooter Model sunglasses in Las Vegas, around 50 quid but UK price was 80 quid, that’s not nothing ! (but Nevada doesn’t have any Sales Tax).

        • For Whom the Troll Bells

          As a postscript, electrical good really do tend to be much cheaper than in the UK, even taking into account the different sales tax regimes. It broke my heart to go to Home Depot (like B&Q on steroids) and see all the man things like drills, angle grinders, lathes and so on at prices well below those of the UK, but know that they worked only on 120 volts.

          • Hagen vanTronje

            Home Depot is a good source of stuff, I liked Walmart too, they sold me boxes of ammunition like it was selling loaves of bread and the Fishing Tackle was to die for !

  • Cheddarcakes

    True Eurosceptics care not one jot about either of these so called ‘out groups’, what we care about is what we read about on the interwebbies and what we see and hear in our communities and it is not looking good for the in campaign on either front.

    You cannot make a rotting corpse smell nice no matter how much you try to freshen it up and the EU is rotten to it’s core. I am greatly heartened by the recent polling data

    • St Louis

      You are so right. Take no notice of Nelson and Forsyth, they are paid stool pigeons of Dave and his crew of treacherous nitwits.

      • Ooh!MePurse!

        How does making personal insults move the argument forward? I’ve yet to decide how I will vote. I’m swayed towards OUT but I’ve yet to see or hear a coherent argument or campaign. It’s very frustrating. There must be a coherent strategy or REMAIN will walk away with a stunning majority.

        • For Whom the Troll Bells

          For too many in the OUT camp, a coherrent strategy is a frothing at the mouth and a rant about immigrants, lying politicians and the evils of the EU. I too am being swayed towards OUT, but every time I get near the line, I hear more from the BNP-in-blazers brigade and it turns me off. There’s plenty who are not like that but, if they are a majority, it’s a silent one.

          • TheJustCity

            Unless you’ve been in a coma for thirty years with an old cola advert on a loop across the screen of your unconscious mind, any one of the aforementioned is reason enough for being in the ‘out’ camp. Or do you think EU ordained multi-cult is working well? BNP in blazers! – unredacted Grauniad agitprop. Talk about trolling!

            Look, there are more genuine fascists in any given group of ‘Islamists’ or Muslim lobby groups than the majority of the protest and anti-EU groups that have sprung up across the continent.

          • For Whom the Troll Bells

            Thank you for illustrating my point so effectively.

          • LittleRedRidingHood

            In what way. All you’ve done is regurgitate the cultural Marxist line.
            I assume you turn a blind eye to the events terrorising ordinary people across the continent.

          • LittleRedRidingHood

            I suggest you look at the grassroots out GO campaign.

            http://grassrootsout.co.uk

            Those BNP-in-blazers brigade you weakly associate with the far right talk more sense than anything coming out of Westminster. I suggest you view the event in Manchester .

            http://livestream.com/accounts/16851580/events/4782876

        • LittleRedRidingHood

          What appeals to you staying in?

          Does the events in Germany, Austria, Sweden, France etc. not concern you in the slightest?

          I cannot think of one reason to stay.

          • Ooh!MePurse!

            Yes, of course those things concern – and appall – me. However, the case for OUT at the moment appears to amount to nothing but a bunch of swivel head loons. I detest the EU but I don’t want swivel head loons to be in charge. In the absence of some real leadership and a coherent message I regret to say that I’ m more likely to vote REMAIN.

          • LittleRedRidingHood

            Then I suggest you take a look at the grassroots out GO movement. All pertinent point were covered.
            Time for you to show some courage, vote leave and help shape the ensuing political landscape.

          • PaD

            You do that…the rest of us are getting out…and voting for Ukip to run this country before it gets totally ruined.

          • Ooh!MePurse!

            And it should be ‘Do the events….’.

          • LittleRedRidingHood

            Reduced to a spelling and grammar n@:-O?
            Heard of predictive text on mobile devices?

  • TommyCastro

    I will be so disappointed if a bunch a lazy people with no imagination together with useless Lefties prevent us from leaving….I’ll probably pack it in and go somewhere……but where….?

    • Sue Smith

      There’s always Australia, but we have the same utopian loonys attempting to dominate the political discourse here. In short, not much difference!!

      • TommyCastro

        Understood but the New World is, in my experience, infinitely more independant and more innovative. They generally don’t have the same negative spirit.

        • Sue Smith

          There’s a great deal of negativity around today; trust me!! If you want real independence and innovation go no further than South Korea!!

          • TommyCastro

            The only thing that puts me off; I was in Seoul a couple of years ago, we not to the market and all the food was moving……..

          • Sue Smith

            Yep, nothing stands still in Korea. Everything and everybody is on the job!!

  • Northerner1001

    Remain will win 57% to 43% this is just the shadow boxing period, IN is not sexy but it’s common sense, Outters shout louder but they’ll be plenty of ‘Shy Inners’ out there to defeat the Farage’s of this world

    • http://batman-news.com James Mackie

      The polls have LEAVE 10 percent ahead and growing.

      A few years ago I would have said stay, however its seriously getting out of control now, it is much better that we are seen to be a safe haven.

      EURO Crisis has not gone away and will return in 2016 when Greeks refuse to have their pensions stolen from them by the EU elites in Brussels.

      Migration will hit the millions again and Schengen will be effectively finished.

      The Eurocrats will water even further down the meagreconcessions, and will most likley renege on them after the refernedum, how long to make a treaty change – 3 years 4 years? They will never make it stick.

      Why is Cameron asking for us to be exempted from Eurozone bailouts, does the EU take part in GBP bailouts ???

      As Schultz is even saying – its time to get our coats and LEAVE on 23″rd June if we have any sense.

      Just what does the EU have left to offer – other than servitude?

      • For Whom the Troll Bells

        “The polls have LEAVE at 10 percent” – which polls?

        • Todd Unctious

          He means the Poles who are 90% in favour of Remain.

          • For Whom the Troll Bells

            90% seems a bit high. I’m Hungary right now but I’ll Czech on it after lunch.

          • Sue Smith

            Don’t forget to dip your Turkey into Greece.

      • Northerner1001

        No, 1 poll had Leave 9% ahead, just 1 & that was done during the newspaper onslaught after Cameron’s statement so your 10% Leave ahead does not exist, if you’re quoting polls, 2 phone polls (Stastically the most accurate) have Remain 19% ahead (IpsosMORI,ComRes)

    • LittleRedRidingHood

      Don’t be so sure. It makes no sense at all to stay in. Provide your rationale please.

      • Northerner1001

        Once the campaign proper starts the full machines of Tory,Labour & business will expose leave as an empty shell based on mostly guesses, they are expecting many people to believe them when they say their jobs are safe outside of the EU, their rhetoric will be exposed you’ll see

        • LittleRedRidingHood

          Exactly which jobs are at risk? Is that also a guess?
          Clutching at straw sounds more like.

          • Northerner1001

            There are 3m jobs directly linked to the UK being in the EU, you can’t guarantee if there was a brexit that any of them are safe, you simply can’t & that is a MASSIVE weakness for Leave amongst many other weaknesses & they’ll be brutally exposed during the campaign

          • LittleRedRidingHood

            Which jobs, which sectors, why would they be in jeopardy?

            Nissan and toyota have already come out as saying it makes no difference to them as many other business owners.

            Please be specific.

  • Northerner1001

    The Leave groups are a shambles but of course Leave have most of the papers who are their best hope but Remain will win comfortably in the end

  • WTF

    Not that much of a shambles compared to the in camp.

    Hey Cameron, did that former Tory leader Harold Macmillan ever coach you on “Events dear boy” ?

    Despite all the misinformation from your side the events in Europe could well scupper your plans to stay in at all costs.

    Juncker & Merkel cooked up a dodgy deal on welfare benefits that pays out even more than before to families living in Europe whilst their bread winner works in the UK. Now Shultz of the EU says they can vote it down in the EU parliament, so in the end you achieved nothing and we’re going
    backwards not forwards.

    Back in the 1930’s we were seeing the rise of fascism across Europe and look where that ended up and now in 2016 we’re seeing the rise of different flavor of fascism thanks to
    crass migrant polices and the cultural suicide of Europe.

    You might not see the problems that are facing us but the British electorate is not that gullible. Give it up now and get out as there’s no way Germany or Sweden can reverse the plague of criminal activities in their countries any time soon and it will take years to deport those they
    claim they’ll deport. In fact there’s a strong probability the EU project is in its death throes, Schengen is history, parts of Eastern Europe like Hungary & Bulgaria could leave, the Med countries could leave the Eurozone and the worst nightmare of all, Sweden could become a Sharia state.

    Come on Dave, do the country a favour, plan now for new trading partners and get out sooner than later.

  • http://batman-news.com James Mackie

    The vote to LEAVE is supported by many diverse groups

    Grassroots
    Vote Leave
    Better Off out
    Labour MPs
    SNP MSPs
    Tory MPs and Cabinet ministers

    but by far the most important of all
    the general Public, they wont be fooled a second time.

    Vote LEAVE on the 23rd June, for all our sakes.

    • For Whom the Troll Bells

      Exactly the same thing could be said of REMAIN, and it would be just as misleading. One poll (an on-line poll of only a 1000 people in Scotland, I believe) has put LEAVE ahead by a decent margin but most Poll of Polls show only a small lead and then only recently. That shows that LEAVE and REMAIN are neck and neck, and actually the bookies’ odds favour the latter. Why do you and so many other LEAVE-ers live in a fantasy world where everyone wants to LEAVE and are prevented from doing so by a tiny number of disingenuous politicians? If this is the level of realism in the LEAVE camp, why on Earth would anyone believe anything they say?

      • Alex

        See also UKIP, who at the height of their popularity still couldn’t get their leader elected, yet we were regularly seeing these oracles making predictions of 100+ UKIP seats without any irony…

        • For Whom the Troll Bells

          And they are still making wild predictions based on no hard evidence.

        • woohoo002

          The Tories had to overspend illegally to get that seat, as well as the missing ballot boxes, reminiscent of LBJ’s box 13, there is good circumstantial evidence that the seat was stolen from Farage.
          http://blog.chron.com/txpotomac/2010/08/today-in-texas-history-lbjs-stolen-senate-victory/

          • Alex

            Tories gonna Tory, I would rather even UKIP than them

      • LittleRedRidingHood

        Forget the polls. GO with your conscience.
        The beauty of this is that there are no party politics. It’s in or out. Simple.

        • For Whom the Troll Bells

          Yes, I agree but one’s conscience has to be shaped by something, and i would prefer facts rather than hyperbole, lies and distortion.

          • LittleRedRidingHood

            Then you clearly cannot support the remain campaign. They have presented nothing of substance or truth for that matter.
            [edit] please elaborate on what points you think are hyperbole, lies and distortion.

          • For Whom the Troll Bells

            Both camps are equally guilty but I have a teeny weeny suspicion that you think that it is only one of them. So, to hyperbole, lies and distortion, I’ll add delusion.

          • LittleRedRidingHood

            Only problem is you failed to add an answer to the question posed to you.
            I’m under no illusion that both camps need to do better but the remain campaign have nothing other than a little piece of paper from our pal Dave which amounts to little more than two red balloons and a dead donkey.
            I want them to justify their claim that 3 million jobs will be lost. They haven’t yet, a year after the claim was made. More scaremongering from the in crowd than substance.
            Today the line is. If we leave the migrants in Calais may be ‘forced’ to travel to the UK.
            What deluded nonsense this is. They are there to come to the UK anyway. The difference being though, as an independent nation we will be able to pick them up before they set foot on British soil and take them to the processing centre we should set up on South Georgia.

          • For Whom the Troll Bells

            Where is the question?

          • LittleRedRidingHood

            It may be disqus.

            “please elaborate on what points you think are hyperbole, lies and distortion.”

          • PaD

            Yes its funny how a ‘letter from Donald Tusk’ becomes some talisman or holy scroll.
            10 hours earlier Tusk was tweeting(oh how surprising) that there was no deal..another scam he thinks we swallowed..imean tweeting FFS..
            Think Communist Eastern Europe think automaton.

      • PaD

        You dont have to believe anything..use your eyes and ears.
        Start with Cologne.

        • For Whom the Troll Bells

          Why would I not believe that something bad happened in Cologne and other European cities? However, the reprehensible behaviour of a relatively small number of people is not much of a basis for a decision that affects 60 million people and their descendents. I am not trying to minimise the problem that Islam presents but there are ways, other than leaving the EU, in which it could be tackled if we have the will and courage to do so.

  • JewishKuffar

    I find it amazing that Cameron’s deal is supposed to confirm that we won’t join the Euro or Schengen and are not committed to ‘Ever Closer Union.’ These are the founding principles of the EU and supposedly its greatest achievements. Why would anyone want to remain in a club where they don’t want to abide by its most important rules? It’s like being in a naturist club but wanting to be allowed to wear clothes!

  • John Andrews

    Nobody thought Obama had a chance until the election campaign began.

  • WTF

    A confidence trick in progress ? Quite likely.

    Has anyone
    ever asked themselves why Juncker and others give ammunition to the EU
    exit camp against Cameron rather than help him, well this might explain
    it.

    1/ Cameron was forced to offer a referendum on in/out of
    the EU by the political mood of the electorate before the general
    election however at that time he was convinced the stay in vote had that
    majority by a good margin so he capitulated.

    2/ Cameron is most
    definitely in the stay in the EU camp but since he offered a referendum
    he has seen the polls swing around the 50/50 position for some time now.

    3/
    As a result of this uncertain outcome of a referendum he has attempted
    to gain concessions from the EU to swing the vote in his favorover the
    past 6 months and has made fatuous claims he’s getting what he/we need.

  • WTF

    A confidence trick in progress ? Quite likely.

    Has anyone ever asked themselves why Juncker and others give ammunition to the EU exit camp against Cameron rather than help him, well this might explain it.

    1/ Cameron was forced to offer a referendum on in/out of the EU by the political mood of the electorate before the general election however at that time he was convinced the stay in vote had that majority by a good margin so he capitulated.

    2/ Cameron is most definitely in the stay in the EU camp but since he offered a referendum he has seen the polls swing around the 50/50 position for some time now.

    3/ As a result of this uncertain outcome of a referendum he has attempted to gain concessions from the EU to swing the vote in his favor over the past 6 months and has made fatuous claims he’s getting what he/we need.

    So far so good but the margin in his favor for an IN result still looks decidedly risky and the Eurocrats in Brussels aren’t trusting Cameron to get the result that they all want as the polls are too close too call. What to do about it ? Well, Juncker and his junta at the EU would normally have tried spin and ‘sweet nothings’ to ‘persuade’ the UK electorate to swing to the IN position but they haven’t, and I wonder why ? In the summer of 2015, Juncker & Merkel had already seen signs that immigration into the EU was going very badly and apart from countries on the mainland slowly realizing what was happening, they knew that whatever spin they tried on the UK electorate over the referendum it would fall on deaf ears. Forget that game plan it wont work and if there is no way of convincing the electorate by June 2016 that they should stay in and a different route needs to be taken. Neither Cameron nor Juncker could change public opinion given the migrant debacle so the
    only opportunity to halt a UK exit is to cancel a referendum.Now comes the clever bit, Cameron himself might still want to try persuasion to get a IN result but Juncker and the rest of those eurocrats, have consistently destroyed Camerons assertions that he has renegotiated anything of value from Brussels on several occasions over the past 6 months. This moves the OUT camp into the ascendancy stopping any idea that Cameron can persuade the electorate to stay in. What is Camerons only option to stay in the EU as he’s certain the vote will go against him, its dream
    up some lame story like perhaps the migrant crisis means he must postpone the referendum but in reality cancel it.

    Is this that far fetched ?

    • woohoo002

      Given the contempt that the Political class holds for us, I expect a contrived reason for a permanent delay to the vote, maybe that Bus on the bridge was a clue :)

  • Windymac

    We’re not “in crisis”. The “weighted” polls are reporting it at around 50/50 which tells us the out camp is comfortably in the lead.
    Bring it on. The sooner the better.

    • Alex

      Europhobes want it late because they want there to be a recession in good time for the vote. Europhiles want it early because even Cameron and Osborne know their boom is based on whiffs of air, IOUs and selling each other the same houses over and over again, and it will run out soon.

      If it happens this June we will vote in definitely.

      • PaD

        The only definite thing is that in will be much much worse than out.

  • Patrick Roy

    The European Project has failed. Time to get out.

    • Sue Smith

      I’d have to agree with that based on what I’ve read from Australia and experienced whilst in Europe. When the negatives outweigh any possible positives it’s time to pull the pin. But can Britain survive and compete on its own in the globalized economy? That’s the ONLY relevant QUESTION you need to address. The free movement of peoples argument is finished. That last is a hopelessly utopian and discredited ideology.

  • Muttley

    “More than that, voters will have ratified the transformation from the European Economic Community that we joined in 1973 to the imperial institution that the European Union is today.”

    This is the really bad downside of an “in” vote in the referendum,bespecially given Cameron’s lack of success even with the limited concessions he asked for. If we vote “in” it will be assumed we are fully on board for the whole putrid hog of the EU superstate and they will really f*** us over.

    • Alex

      How can they? We have our sovereignty and we are powerful enough to exercise it. If the EU tried to impose the Euro on us or whatever we would just leave or ignore their silly demands. With that leverage we are better off in the EU than out of it as then we have influence over the massive “superstate” across the water. Just like in business you don’t sell off an asset until it gets to squeaky bum time (although I know this is a tough one for Thatcherites to understand), in negotiations you don’t cash in leverage until it gets to squeaky bum time.

      • Muttley

        I think Cameron has just very adequately demonstrated that we have little or no influence on the EU while we are in it. If he has had to work this hard to get little or nothing, how on earth are we ever going to achieve anythng concrete?

        • Alex

          Maybe it would help if he demonstrated a willingness to work with other countries on reforms that would apply across the EU rather than spending 10 years acting like a bratty child, flouncing out of the EPP, complaining about the special treatment Britain gets already and demanding even more of it on an ad hoc rather than EU wide reformist basis.

          It is plain that he is just in it for what he can get out of the EU to appease British voters, rather than someone committed to reforming and remoulding the EU in the image of what he and British voters think needs improving.

          • Muttley

            There is absolutely no appetite for reform in the EU. It was created as it is deliberately to reduce the influence of voters and individual nations.

          • Alex

            The only issue with EU democracy I can see is that the parliament and commission are upside down. The executive proposes legislation. But the only reason this is so is because the commissioners are domestic politicians. It was probably designed this way to placate those whingers unhappy that their domestic politicians would lose influence.

            Again an example of Eurosceptics whinging about the very concessions they have been given.

            What other democratic issues are there in the EU? Qualified majority voting? I like Cameron’s red card and think 7 or 8 countries should be enough to block it. Not as many as 14 (i.e. half the EU) and not as few as can form a cultural bloc (i.e. Baltics, Scandinavia etc)

          • antoncheckout

            1. Eurosceptics are not interested in some of their ‘domestic politicians’ retaining influence in the Commission. Mandelson and Ashton and Hill are not our elected ‘domestic politicians’ – they are appointees.
            2. “What other democratic issues are there in the EU?”
            Haha – how long have you got? :-)
            3. You’ve falsely represented the red card. It would need the EC to rule that it can be exercised, and then agreements passed through 14 parliaments within a very short period, before the red card can be waved. There is no chance of that ever happening.

          • Alex

            1. Well that’s our fault then for not choosing our ministers in a more representative way. Crunch the numbers and see just what a tiny percentage of the electorate even voted for cabinet members to be in the House, let alone the cabinet, let alone to that specific position. It would be chaos if ministers were directly elected to their specific positions by the voting public but I’m sure this could be improved in some way.

            All the EU is doing is trying desperately to appease you lot by ensuring that the primary decision-making body of the EU is made up of domestically elected and chosen politicians rather than “Eurocrats”.

            2. I’m happy to hear them…

            3. I agree on this, I am saying the red card is a good idea in principle but 14 is too many. I wonder if the red card could be ratcheted down in the future – I think once it’s established, even at 14, there is a common interest in getting it down further. And the EU can be won round by saying it’s better to express dissent that way than passing laws no-one likes that member states will only turn around and not comply with.

          • PaD

            We dont care about any of that bollocks..were getting out.
            A good run is better than a bad stand.

          • Roger Hudson

            The UK has never been supported by 14 others (or what a majority was before) so the ‘red card’ is total nonsense, a distractor to confuse people into voting ‘remain’.
            The question is simple , who is sovereign? at the moment it’s not the UK parliament(crown in parliament) where it should be. We must learn not to be lazy, overcrowded and americanised , love Europe but don’t let others rule over us.

          • PaD

            Bet you dont have a daughter or sister or mother living in Cologne

          • Rob

            The problem is the gulf between what the British public want the EU to be and what the EU is, and always will be. The two cannot be reconciled so we should leave.

          • Alex

            I have literally never heard anyone opposed to the EU articulate “what they want it to be” – it’s just “out out out”. So go ahead: what would you, and/or “the British public” want it to be?

      • PaD

        You could say ‘how can they’ deliberately open the floodgates and let in millions of people from another culture..many who have robbed raped and killed since their arrival..with no end in sight for the influx..
        How can They? They just did..and are still doing..
        This will not end well..guaranteed.

    • sir_graphus

      That’s 100 correct; a vote to REMAIN is a vote not just for the status quo, but for the continued direction of travel and ultimate destination. We say yes once, they’ll take this as the answer to every more-Europe question.

  • LittleRedRidingHood

    No mention if the well organised, very vocal and we’ll supported grassroots out GO campaign?

    http://grassrootsout.co.uk

    Go to you local launch. Spread the word and put your cross in the right box when the time comes.

    Nothing is simpler

  • antoncheckout

    James – you’re missing the point. Nobody needs a ‘Strongman’ or a caucus or a bunch of politicos to come along and ‘lead’ those who want to leave. Leavers are their own advocates and their own proselytisers. The Remain camp needs solemn voices of warning and threat to lull the masses into voting to Remain. The Leavers know why they are doing what they’re doing, and most of them are self-starters, because freedom and independence (national, Parliamentary, individual) is their motive. They talk, canvass, send website story links and snippets of EU Treaty law to the on-the-fencers, and convert, convert.

    They are precisely the sort of people who don’t pay much heed to the symbolic rhetoric of ‘leadership’.

    I suggest you read Cavafis’s great modern Greek poem ‘Che fece il gran rifiuto’ about the ‘big yes and the big no’ – and the difference between those who say them.

    • In2minds

      “James – you’re missing the point” –

      That’s what he does!

  • tom kincade

    Cameron tellingnmps to ignore the grassroot electorate is not only insulting but undemocratic however we have never shouted loudly about being a democracy because we know we are not we may be lots of things but not a democracy it would be an insult to the world’s democracies to keep suggesting we are look at the unelected house of lords as one example I have always believed democracy is of the people by the people for the people that’s a joke

  • Roger Hudson

    Don’t professional politicians and journalists love a ‘campaign’, it allows expenses, seniority, self-agrandisment .
    Voters can find out the real facts easier than in ’75, those politicos shouldn’t be allowed to lie , distract, confuse and hood-wink ( lovely word for you masons) again.
    Go online at Youtube and see what Powell ( that’s Enoch not those Thatcher/Blair parasites) said about sovereignty ( the core issue) in 1975, still true today.

  • Lenox Napier

    There are a couple of million of us Brits living in Europe and we have a few worries about this referendum of yours (naturally, we aren’t allowed to vote). Firstly of course, should we all be coming home again after twenty or thirty years or so to put ‘shoulder to the wheel’? Where will we stay – on Salisbury Plain perhaps in Quonset huts erected by your Polish labour-force, or maybe just in your guest bedrooms? I’m told the pound will drop about 20% if you leave the EU, so should we change our euros now, or wait until we get ‘home’? What are the winters like, should we bring our floaties and swimming things? Can you buy decent bread there now? Is it true a pint of beer costs over five pounds? This thing about driving on the wrong side of the road is worrying, we are all getting on a bit over here and could easily have a momentary lapse. Perhaps you could put up some signs. Is the NHS still going strong, we may need it rather a lot. By the way, for our own piece of mind – is there anyone in authority who can tell us what to expect… beyond a destroyer parked in our local harbour and instruction to bring ‘one small suitcase, no pets and no foreign companions’?

    • UKSteve

      Such a spectacularly stupid post, one thinks there should possibly be an award of some kind.

      Leave or Remain, rest assured your poor, pathetic, petty-minded propagandist / absurdist head won’t be bothered. Please feel free to stay there ….all of your life.

    • njt55

      I don’t really care about you. If you hate the UK so much just stay away and simply become a citizen of the country you chose to live in. Or maybe you can come back to a property that you’ve rented out all this time.

    • PaD

      Alert! EU plant.

    • Lenox

      Looks like I was right about the Pound.

  • OscarJones

    “one made much worse by its failure to control its own borders.” Uhh? Shouldn’t that be one made much worse by Tony Blair & David Cameron’s ill-thought out decisions to re-design the Middle East?

    • hobspawn

      No, economic migrants are coming from all over Africa and the East. This is caused by the easy access to information about our welfare system i.e. emails from friends saying “get over here, quick, everything’s free and they pay FIVE DOLLARS (US) AN HOUR! All you have to do to get in is burn your passport and say you’re Syrian!”

  • woohoo002

    It seems to me that the establishments hatred and fear of Farage is hampering the Leave Camp.

    • PaD

      Except that Farage almost singlehandedly brought about this referendum.
      The leave camp are doing fine.

  • PaD

    If Forsythe thinks this it doesnt mean its true.
    Im betting he’s a stayer and this is same old dissembling from Msm…that everyone knows are shills…breitbart are the only honest online news source worth reading.

  • James

    Either the referendum will be fixed or another case where the result of leave is not accepted.

  • Isaac Darwin

    Who on earth have been polled? Working class idiots that don’t know the difference between EU and Europe? Will these people even be voting? I don’t see how any intelligent educated citizen can think voting to stay is a good idea. Why do we need another Cologne? Was one not enough? Was Paris not enough? Or shall we wait till 100 Londoners have been blown up? How much does it take for the thick supine British electorate to wise up?

    • Jimmy Ainsworth

      Maybe if you stopped calling them stupid, they might listen. If you’re selling something, a torrent of abuse isn’t really the way to close the deal.

  • I killed Madeleine Mccann

    I don’t think it’s the Euroskeptics that are in crisis.

  • Jack Rocks

    According to Guido the BSE campaign has wheeled out Eddie Izzard tonight. As Eddie Izzard has never publicly backed a winning campaign it’s become even harder for me to read this piece with a straight face.
    It’s almost as if the Spectator is making a huge effort to give Out absolutely no credit whatsoever. Or rather I should say, it’s literally bending over forwards to present the opinions of its favourite spads in Westminster.

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