Features

Why Britain (and Europe) depends on migrants

It’s not about economics. It’s about our snobbish, slobbish culture

26 March 2016

9:00 AM

26 March 2016

9:00 AM

This is perhaps not the best moment in history to extol migrants from the developing world or Eastern Europe, but the fact remains that without them my life, and I suspect the life of many other people in the West, would be much poorer and more constricted than it is.

A migrant is not just a migrant, of course. Indeed, to speak of migrants in general is to deny them agency or even characteristics of their own, to assume that they are just units and that their fate depends only on how the receiving country receives them and not at all on their own motives, efforts or attributes, including their cultural presuppositions. It takes two to integrate, after all.

But I want to point to what seems to me a curious paradox. My elderly mother-in-law, who lives in Paris, requires a great deal of daily care because of illness, and in fact has three attendants who look after her on a kind of shift system. They come respectively from Cape Verde, Mauritius and Haiti. We are extremely fortunate to have them: they are very kindly and good-hearted and they do far more than they are strictly paid to do. We have good reason to be grateful to them. They have a difficult job and they do it marvellously well, with patience and good humour that is exemplary.

If we did not have these people to look after my mother-in-law, our lives would be greatly disrupted and indeed dominated by having to look after her ourselves, which would be more or less a full-time occupation and would prevent us from doing almost anything else. Speaking personally, I am not cut out to be a full-time carer, nor do I have any ambitions in that direction.

If it were not for these immigrants from Cape Verde, Mauritius and Haiti, or from other similar countries, we should not be able to find any substitutes, even though the unemployment rate in France is about 10 per cent and much higher among fit young people — 20 per cent, say — and the work itself requires only a certain amount of training. The underlying attitude is at least as important as the training, and the fact is that the young French, as the young British, do not have the right attitude.

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Now, you might say that if we cannot find anyone to look after her individually we could put her in an old people’s home (which would almost certainly shorten her life); this, however, would only shift the problem slightly, for the fact is that such homes are overwhelmingly staffed by immigrants from Cape Verde, Mauritius, Haiti, etc.

In other words it appears that, despite mass unemployment, we have to import labour in order that this kind of work be done. And the problem, or perhaps I should say peculiarity, does not exist only in France but in many other countries. In Ireland, for example, an old lady of my acquaintance needed 24-hour attendance and this was provided by a Filipina, even at a time when there was 15 per cent unemployment in Ireland.

Economic determinists will no doubt attribute the paradox to our system of social security and unemployment benefits. The economic difference between doing this type of work and not working at all is simply not great enough to entice any native to do it. But I do not think that this can be the explanation, or at any rate the whole explanation. The fact again is that the women are paid above the minimum wage and, being legal migrants, are entitled to the same benefits as those who allegedly will not do the work for lack of incentive to do it. I am not sure, either, that I would much like to be looked after by someone who did the work only because there was no alternative for her.

The difference, then, is a psychological, cultural or even religious one. The change in the title of the senior nurse in a hospital ward from sister to ward manager is indicative of a change in sensibility, from a residually religious notion of serving others to a purely technocratic one. In the popular imagination, the distinction between service to others and servitude to others has been more or less eliminated.

Nor does this affect only work such as looking after my mother-in-law. Some years ago, the Guardian columnist Madeleine Bunting wrote the following:

So when a girl at 17 decides to go ahead and have a baby, there is no tragedy of lost opportunity other than the local checkout till waiting for her low-paid labour.

This sentence breathes snobbery and disdain for those who actually do such work; it assumes, moreover, that once a supermarket checkout cashier, always a supermarket checkout cashier, a fate worse than death. That there might actually be people for whom such work is suitable and potentially not odious does not occur to the writer. What makes the work odious is not the work itself, but those who communicate their disdain of it. Snobbery thus makes the import of labour necessary.

In Britain, we have an additional problem, greater than that of any of our neighbours. With the exception of family hotels, for example, all good hotels in Britain employ exclusively foreign labour. If you want to go to a really bad large hotel in Britain, find one in which the staff are British. It is then guaranteed to be ill-kept, with slovenly service, quite possibly not very clean, with atrocious food, grubby staff, inattention to detail and so forth. Even a foreign telephonist is likely to be better, and to speak better English, than an English telephonist. If you want a good or even only a decent hotel, you must find one in which all the staff are foreign. And this is so whatever the unemployment rate, high or low: it has nothing to do with the unemployment rate.

I have conducted a small thought experiment with many people. I ask them to imagine that they are employers who seek an employee to perform work that is not in itself skilled but nevertheless requires certain characteristics, such as punctuality, politeness, willingness to oblige and so forth. The imagined employer has two applicants about whom he knows only two things: their age (shall we say 24) and their nationality. One is British and one is Polish. Which of the applicants does the imagined employer choose? Not a single person to whom I have put this question has ever hesitated for a moment: he chooses the Pole.

Our need for migrants, then, has a cultural, not an economic root. This does not mean, however, that we need all the migrants we are likely to get from wherever we get them.

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Show comments
  • Dai

    That last sentence was important and needed expanding. The current debate is about finding the right balance.

  • redsquirrel

    choose the pole yes. Very few people have got anything against poles or other Europeans. Not really the issue. Agree though that any snobbishness about work is just idiotic.

  • Sid Falco

    So it’s ok to sneer at hotel staff but not at checkout cashiers ? A tedious article which, thankfully, appeared to stop abruptly mid-rant (although perhaps I simply nodded off…).

  • styants64

    The reason that Britain as so many migrants looking after others some of these are from immigration, also millions have gotten out of this over Country to Australia New Zealand Canada et cetera for a better quality of life and you can blame them.

  • patrickirish

    So Theodore is a self loathing Brit. Or is he?

    • Owen_Morgan

      He’s a self-loathing, but self-promoting hominid. As long as there are people to loathe, he will loathe them to order, except for the one in his own mirror.

  • serguei_p

    Children of a Polish immigrant are unlikely to blow themselves on the Tube. Children of immigrants from a different background might. Unfortunately this is the part of the discussion about immigration the PC establishment would like to ban.

    • Pip

      The elephant in the room deliberately ignored by those who write with treacherous agenda.

    • Mike

      Same with the children of Vietnamese, Philippino, Brazilian and Chinese immigrant, not to speak of many many others! When is the last time that there has been a problem of criminality with those “sorts”?

      I wonder what the children of immigrants from certain places have in common that makes them more likely to blow themselves up? It would be good to figure it out before anyone else ends up dead or in hospital.

      • Margot5000

        I take it you’re being sarcastic as we all know what they have in common.

        • Mike

          I was either being sarcastic or don’t want to get the hate crimes police on my rear end :-). Which, I’ll leave for you to figure out. I’m not sure that it makes a big difference.

  • Atlas

    This article is offensive racist nonsense that believes, apparently for reasons of race, that British people are incapable of providing basic services. The Spectator should withdraw and it immediately and apologise for the bigotry of its author.

    • Dave Hill

      Why don’t you withdraw your head from your backside and apologise for your parents’ failure to drown you at birth, Arseless? You spineless little toad.

      • vieuxceps2

        A worthless comment.

        • Dave Hill

          You could just as well replace every single one of your “comments” with those words.

          • David

            No really, it was a worthless comment.

      • IainRMuir

        You have a problem.

        • Dave Hill

          You needn’t think you’re any better. When will you and your ilk acquire some moral fibre?

          • The Only Good Tory

            Perhaps when his testicles drop.

      • Richard Young

        How do you know Atlas is a vertebrae lacking tailless amphibian?Such insight.Contact Dalrymple now.You could look after his mother-in-law.

        • Dave Hill

          Is English your second language or something, Dickie? Or are you just plain thick?

          • Richard Young

            Three questions on the trot,Touch a nerve did I me old mucker?And there was us getting on so well.Oops.

      • FMA

        Relax. Atlas is just a satirical poster who pretends to be some sort of quasi-libertarian crossed with a neo-Nazi. I can’t believe you fell for his act. The dead giveaway is his avatar – if you look closely you’ll realise it’s a doctored photo of Mads Mikkelsen not Ayn Rand.

      • Shorne

        If you don’t know already Dave read up on Ayn Rand whose picture ‘Atlas’ uses.

    • IainRMuir

      Entirely agree – a collection of sweeping generalisations that would be unacceptable in other circumstances. We import the most motivated individuals from other countries and use their performance as evidence of their inherent superiority.

      If we have a problem with SOME of our own or, more likely, our education system, we should set about fixing it. Leaving them on welfare whilst bringing in replacements from abroad is lazy, expensive, and deprives their native countries of talent they might actually need.

      I’ve had many instances of first class service from British staff in British establishments and, contrary to what some people here are saying, appalling service in restaurants in France and Spain where it is supposed to be a highly respected skill. I don’t draw any widespread conclusions from that.

      Nauseating article.

      • Baron

        Wrong, Iain, both you and Atlas, the piece is beautifully written, the reasoning for immigration perfectly logical, except that the good doctor skilfully avoided an aspect of it, one that everyone else is also more than reluctant to tackle.

        Immigration today is what colonisation was in the past except that the travelling arrangements of the parties got reversed at a time of Islam resurgence financed largely by our insatiable demand for oil. As before, it’s a middle class phenomenon, but instead of the sahib packing his suitcase, boarding a ship, settling up in a distant land where the local picked fruits for him, the locals come to Britain, look after sahib’s ageing mother.

        The risk such an arrangement brings about is in that some of the immigrants either arrive with deeply religious feelings, or acquire them whilst already here, count themselves followers of Allah first, anything else, like British, second, have no desire to look after grandmothers of people who write well, instead get angry, engage in suicide bombings, cause alot of pain and suffering.

        An even bigger danger lurks in the future. The Muslim community in the Czech republic numbers in the hundreds. Their spiritual leaders have instructed them to obey the law, keep schtum, behave and wait until there are more of them, then and only then, they are told, could they make demands to get what the Koran teaches a Muslim should have.

        What would the good doctor make of this?

        • The_Common_Potato

          “the piece is beautifully written”

          Yup. I also agree with him.

        • Kennybhoy

          “…except that the good doctor skilfully avoided an aspect of it…”

          and

          “What would the good doctor make of this?”

          I think that he pretty much covers this unspoken aspect in his final sentence…

          “This does not mean, however, that we need all the migrants we are likely to get from wherever we get them.”

          Anything more than allusion is likely to get you arrested and charged these days man… 🙁

          Or worse. Seen this… 🙁

          http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-35898543

          Your second paragraph contains some truth but it is very far from just a “middle-class phenomenon”. It is a simple fact that nursing homes and indeed the NHS depend on immigrant labour. On the other hand immigration in such large numbers, over so short a time span, and absent assimiliation is a species of colonization or invasion.

          Your third paragraph is a masterpiece of sarcastic wit old cyber friend! 🙂

          “…have no desire to look after grandmothers of people who write well…”

          ROTFLOL! 🙂

          “An even bigger danger lurks in the future.”

          Long before they pose any existential threat they and their enablers will provoke the monsters from the Id. God save us all… 🙁

          A blessed and peaceful Easter to you and yours.

      • gunnerbear

        “If we have a problem with SOME of our own or, more likely, our education system, we should set about fixing it. Leaving them on welfare whilst bringing in replacements from abroad is lazy, expensive, and deprives their native countries of talent they might actually need.

        I’ve had many instances of first class service from British staff in British establishments and, contrary to what some people here are saying, appalling service in restaurants in France and Spain where it is supposed to be a highly respected skill. I don’t draw any widespread conclusions from that.” Well said.

      • JohnnyNorfolk

        Do not read it then.

    • Pip

      This is what The Spectator has become, a propaganda outlet for the Liberal progressives and criminal NWO Globalist elite agendas. Those who write and edit the Spectator and DT are no different to those who produced propaganda in support of the Axis during WW2, the defence of ‘I was just following orders’ will not save them come the change.

    • Shorne

      If you go into any hospital of more especially Care Home you will see that without Immigrants both systems would collapse. Of course being a disciple of the appalling Ayn Rand you rail against Government Health Care etc. until, like he you need it when she claimed using her husband’s surname.

      • oldoddjobs

        Ayn Rand believed that more people would afford better healthcare if it wasn’t left to politicians. Therefore, she was evil and wanted sick people to die.

        When she had a chance to get some of her own money back from the state, she did so. Therefore she is an evil hypocrite and we all need the state to look after our healthcare.

    • http://kebabville.blogspot.co.uk/ joe slater

      You will not find more than a handful of immigrants in the healthcare systems of Japan, Taiwan, South Korea, Hong Kong or any other wealthy East Asian country. (And in my experience, their healthcare systems are as good as or better than anything in Europe, partly because they do not allow millions of freeloading migrants to hog the services.)
      There is no inherent reason why west Europeans cannot staff their own hospitals. Their dependence on foreigners is a choice. There are millions of young unemployed across the continent. There is no shortage of potential carers and health workers from the indigenous population.

      • gunnerbear

        “There is no inherent reason why west Europeans cannot staff their own hospitals.” Apart from the fact that they do not want to because they see the jobs as bottom of the pile type jobs….

      • Margot5000

        The Swiss system probably has more proportionally than we do but don’t think there are many complaints about their healthcare. They just keep a good check on their immigrants – and don’t lose them!

    • JohnnyNorfolk

      Rubbish. Its his view and he should say what he thinks. Its called free speech.

  • james edwards

    does Theodore Dalrymple not see the irony of saying that “Speaking personally, I am not cut out to be a full-time carer, nor do I have any ambitions in that direction.” and “the young French, as the young British, do not have the right attitude.” in the same article?
    What a typical neo liberal snob.

  • Ken

    The last two lines say it all. Much of what the writer says is, alas, true. There is a problem with many British people – put it down to poor education, maybe, or to the system of benefits which allows many to spend their lives living on the state. (Tragic that IDS’s efforts to erode the dependency culture have ended in farce.) For example, we seem to regard waiting in a restaurant as a low level job, whereas in Italy, Spain etc waiters take pride in their work. The catering trade is desperate for competent staff and has to recruit young people from Eastern Europe – and most of them are excellent Why are we not training people to do such jobs rather than wasting their time on worthless degrees jn third-rate “universities”? And yes, Polish builders are good at what they do. We do not need people in hijabs who cannot speak a word of English and want to live in ghettoes. We don’t want to lose the cheery black postman or the nice Indian lady who runs the corner shop – and where would we be without curry houses? But we don’t need any more uncontrolled migration and Paris and Brussels show where that leads.

    • post_x_it

      You make a valid point about the mixture of poor education and far too many useless degrees. We have created a culture whereby every young person’s self esteem depends on having been to university and ending up in a job with a fancy title, even if it performs no useful function. The education system has completely forgotten how to turn industrious but non-academically gifted youngsters into productive members of society. This is a great tragedy, and we have indeed arrived at a point where the resulting gaps can only be filled through immigration. Incredibly, the Left insists that this is a cause for celebration rather than a societal failure.
      The article refers to the promotion of nurses to ‘ward managers’ and the change in attitude that comes with it. This phenomenon can be observed across the board. Have you noticed that all British tradesmen now insist on calling themselves ‘engineers’ rather than plumbers, carpenters or electricians? Of course, an ‘engineer’ is far too precious to stick his hands down a blocked toilet. The best he can offer is to charge an exorbitant hourly rate in order to drink cups of tea and supervise his Romanian assistant.

      • gunnerbear

        “The education system has completely forgotten how to turn industrious but non-academically gifted youngsters into productive members of society.” Not forgotten…it was never really tried….back in the late ’40s and early ’50s HMGs of all colours essentially went with Grammar Schools and ‘s**t-bins’ for everyone else due to cost. The only areas that elite technical / trade schools existed (like UTCs today) were in places where large employers (or a big group of smaller employers) could have a huge influence on the standards of the ‘Technical School’ and force middle class local councillors to fund such places.

      • gunnerbear

        If I was PM I would make the titles “Technician” & “Engineer” legally protected so that unless the person has the training and the approval of the Chartered Institutes, they can’t use the title.

      • Mr B J Mann

        Useless degrees are only part of the problem.

        Those with “good” degrees’ even technical ones, look down on “trade”, unlike the rest of the world.

        And, as I understand it, even the highest qualified Poles are prepared to roll up their sleeves and get their hands dirty, either in their own jobs, or anything else they need to turn their hands to.

  • Sean L

    Yes the idea of serving others as an occupation to be valued for its own sake has been thoroughly undermined in our culture. You are absolutely right about that. At the same time the idea that such services should be universally available via state provision, that’s to say at no charge to the beneficiary, is more or less taken for granted.

    Of course prior to universal state welfare people now on benefits as single mothers and the like were “in service” as maids and so on. Which remains the case in the third world, where it’s normal for women to be employed domestically, where everyone of means has their own staff. Allied to that, people tend not to value what they don’t have to pay for themselves.

    Thus teachers, to take one example, are held in far greater esteem in places where education has to be paid for than here where teachers are state functionaries, as opposed to effective delegates of the parents paying for their services. All the same, when it comes to domestic service, in our egalitarian culture everyone deems himself ‘above’ it.

  • pirate202

    Who is this idiot? Britain was able to sustain itself just fine before mass immigration from 1997 and 2004. It’s beyond ludicrous to say that an entire race of people is incapable or unwilling to work as carers/cleaners etc.

    • gunnerbear

      ” It’s beyond ludicrous to say that an entire race of people is incapable or unwilling to work as carers/cleaners etc.” Best pay a wage to live on which means Councils have to pay more for care or private individuals will have to. Perhaps bring in a Japanese style insurance bond to cover for old age as people are living longer with conditions that would have been lethal not so long ago.

  • Revd Robert West

    I cannot agree with this arguement at all. We have done without migrants and immigrants before and we can do without them again. All the reasons given for using foreign workers side-step the real issues, which are to deal with our own problems ourselves – culturally and so on – by not reaching for the ’emergency stop’ lever of more migration, which only delays this, and to boot, stores up trouble, social fragmentation and, yes, ‘rivers of blood’ for the future. This is not statesmanship. Such selfishness and shortsightedness is Byzantine, not British.

    We need to restore the Protestant work-ethic. How about instilling some discipline back in schools? How about encouraging women to have children in wedlock and not to abandon home and hearth, but to stay at home and rear them properly there? How about becoming more self-respecting, positive and nationalistic, and sending young men for a few years into the Armed Forces where a good serjeant major can shout at them!!! That changed the attitudes amongst the youth in the 1950s. It did it then, and it can be done again. I have met foreign workers who are disgusted with Britain’s social attitudes and were glad to get back. Their countries need them more than we do, and we need them far less than we need to address our own problems ourselves, and directly.

    • IainRMuir

      “All the reasons given for using foreign workers side-step the real issues, which are to deal with our own problems ourselves”

      Exactly.

    • JabbaPapa

      I agree with all of that except for this : We need to restore the Protestant work-ethic

      We need to reinforce our Christian values, and the smorgasbord attitude of pick’n’choose café christianity lite is basically destroying them, and PS the values in question are Catholic not Protestant.

      • John McNab

        The very foundation of Britain and its values are based in Protestantism. We rejected the errors of Rome in the 16th century, after approximately nine centuries of its imposed hegemony and were all the better for it. If you want to live somewhere whose values are informed by Romanism, move to Mexico or the Philippines.

        • JabbaPapa

          And never mind all of that Proddie persecution and genocide, eh ? Cromwellism was extremely similar to Islamism.

          • John McNab

            What? What persecution? What genocide? Cromwellism? You’ll need to do better than the usual tired old MOPE extravagance.

          • JabbaPapa

            Cut’n’paste, various sources — sorry for not doing better research for you, but a) I’m not your assistant, and b) I have lost most of my patience for the sort of ignorant denialism of British History that seems to be so endemic to the Establishment “church”.

            Henry VIII Murdered 7 Catholic Canonized Martyrs and 33 Catholic Blessed Martyrs From the execution of two cardinals, two archbishops, 18 bishops, 13 abbots of large monasteries, 500 priors and monks, 38 University Doctors , 12 Dukes or Counts, 164 noblemen, 124 private citizens and 110 women. These were all without the excuse of any particular reasons of State. Total 983.

            It is estimated that 1.5 million Irish Catholic peasants were starved or “put to the sword” under the reign of Elizaebeth I, and their lands seized by English predators.

            The Physician-General of the Army of Cromwell, Dr. William Petty, estimated that about 504,000 of the Irish perished and were wasted by sword, plague, famine, hardship and banishment between 23rd October 1641 and the same day in 1652. Put another way, the population of Ireland in 1641 was 1,448,000 and by 1652, 616,000 perished of which 504,000 were natives and 112,000 colonists and 40,000 soldiers left Ireland to join armies on the continent.

            Oliver Cromwell left Ireland on May 26, 1650. Only nine months in Ireland , Cromwell gave birth to death, exile, persecution, indentured slavery, and a form of 17th century ethnic cleansing.

          • John McNab

            That’s it? You’re obviously one of those bitter Green Brigade types who wake up every day crying into their Jameson’s over events from four – five centuries ago. If you had any idea of historical context and threat assessment instead of being a reductive bigot you would see the reasoning behind much of what you cite for why you think British society should be rewound 600 years.

            I refer you again to the closing sentence of my original statement.

          • JabbaPapa

            Green Brigade

            That’s as utterly wrong as the rest of your position. Denouncing the Protestant genocide in Ireland does not require being Irish oneself. Good job with the implicit racism though …

            YOU started talking about “the 16th century“, but now, as the facts of History reveal that the Protestantism that you revere so much was founded in persecution, bloodshed, and slavery … suddenly it’s no longer relevant any more.

            Meanwhile England now has a greater number of practicing Catholics than practicing Anglicans, Alleluia, as the Established CoE continues along its path of non-stop revisionist self-destruction.

            reductive bigot

            Have you been taking night classes in atheism ?

            why you think British society should be rewound 600 years

            Good GRIEF, what gibberish …

          • John McNab

            So, you’ve decided to drop the ‘racism’ charge into your response, the great suppressor of argument and dispute. Remember, you’re the one that used the pejorative term, “Proddie”, you’re the one making the accusations, you have to make the case – which you lose with your deployment of the R-word. (I see that on another thread, you’re threatening somebody with the Police)

            From your reference to Protestant genocide, I’ll take it you mean to imply that the Protestants carried out genocide, as opposed to a genocide of Protestants. Is it now your position that a belief in RC’ism (shorthand, don’t go off on one) which, like any expression of any kind of religious belief or none is a self identification, is analogous to an ethnic identity? Not all Irishmen are RCs, so what point are you trying to make?

            The Irish as a people still exist, of all beliefs and none, so the genocide, if it were such didn’t work. As I said before, get it in historical, military and societal context as well as that of threat assessment and you’ll see why it was done the way it was done.

            I’m not going to attempt to make sense of your equating “Cromwellism” – a stupid neologism – with Islamism.

            It’s apparent that your world view is reductive, as you have not understood my earlier reference to The Green Brigade. I’m in Scotland – you know, that bit north of the Tweed – where our Protestantism was indeed founded, as you put it, in persecution, genocidal bloodshed and slavery.

            From John Knox to the Covenanters, we’ve had our share, but I don’t want to get into exaggeration, “whitabootery” and the victimhood Olympics, which is what usually happens in engagements such as this.

            I also think you’ll find that the increase in practising RCs in England is due to the inward migration from Eastern Europe and points further afield.

            They haven’t all come to proselytise, they’ve obviously come because our Protestant democracy guarantees their and your civic and religious liberty.

            Again, I refer you to the closing sentence of my original posting.

            Cheerio!

          • JabbaPapa

            So, you’ve decided to drop the ‘racism’ charge into your response, the great suppressor of argument and dispute

            You accused me of being Irish — there’s nothing to “argue”, I’m not one. Pointing out that a false statement you made included racial content with a negative connotation is accurate.

            you’re the one making the accusations, you have to make the case – which you lose with your deployment of the R-word

            Pointing out that Protestantism has a History of extreme violence in the past, and ongoing hatred, is an argument that’s not “lost” just because you decide to start whining about words.

            Is it now your position that a belief in RC’ism … is analogous to an ethnic identity?

            ???????

            Strawmen now ?

            Again, I refer you to the closing sentence of my original posting.

            The racist one about Mexico and the Philippines ?

          • John McNab

            Still with the racism, eh? So you’ve read the MacPherson Report. Big deal.

            Anyway, where are we? I didn’t “accuse” you of being Irish. That’s a singularly revolting and insulting sentiment; you accuse someone of being a thief or a housebreaker, not of being of a particular nationality. Fail. Anyway, you introduced the Irish angle, not me.

            It’s obvious your world view is extremely narrow, limited as it appears to be to an eternal grudge that the Reformation arrived in England and that RC’ism ceased to be the dominant religious ideology.

            The Green Brigade, to which I compared you, for your information, is a highly vocal and offensive section of the support for the egregious Celtic F.C., the UK’s oldest continuous anti-assimilation programme, who weekly sing and chant revelling in the IRA’s murder programme and a manufactured and exaggerated sense of victimhood, are in the main descended from Irish people who moved and settled within the UK from Ireland to Scotland, and who, despite sometimes up to five generations from the original arrival and intermarriage, repeatedly evince hatred and ill-will toward the UK.

            This is primarily based on a nominal self-identification as RCs, often on the basis that only RCs can be fully Irish.

            You still haven’t shown me anything that negates what I’ve posted. Not agreeing with a particular belief system or questioning its validity, is not irrational hatred. You offer no evidence for your assertion that “Protestantism” exhibits ongoing hatred. Again, you’re making the accusation, support it. Oh and this time without resorting to ‘whitabootery’.

            I’m off on holiday tomorrow, but I look forward to engaging with you at some time in the future. Cheerio!

      • Revd Robert West

        I agree, in a sense, with what you say, but to be Pro-testant is to be catholic in the true sense, because Peter was a wedded man, and so was what folks may call a pro-testant; and a pro-testant is simply one who is for (‘pro’) testifying (‘testant’) to the truth of the catholic scriptures of the New Testament. I regard myself as a catholic in the true and New Testament sense. This means that I am an evangelical. But I accept that Roman Catholics can have the same work ethic as Protestants.

        • JabbaPapa

          a pro-testant is simply one who is for (‘pro’) testifying (‘testant’) to the truth of the catholic scriptures of the New Testament

          Nice try, “reverend”, except that the word “protestant” is in fact derived form the German for “protest”. Trendy ret-cons cannot alter the contents of reality.

          I regard myself as a catholic

          But you are not.

          In fact you are a neo-nazi spokesman for the BNP, pretending to be a priest.

          • Revd Robert West

            As far as I am aware the Latin “protestatio” does mean to speak for or testify for. And the original evangelicals (gospellers) who did so in 1531, at Augsburg, were called the pro-testants (pro-testifiers) as a result. They were speaking for the catholic faith of very ancient times, and against the distortions and accretions of the Hierarchy at that time.

            A catholic is someone who holds to the true faith of the early church and of the canon of scripture; that is what I do. I have not accepted any of the later additions and distortions.

            I am not a priest but a presbyter, that is one of your distortions; and I am neither a National nor an International Socialist. I hope that you are not too.

          • JabbaPapa

            As far as I am aware the Latin “protestatio” does mean to speak for or testify for. And the original evangelicals (gospellers) who did so in 1531, at Augsburg, were called the pro-testants (pro-testifiers) as a result. They were speaking for the catholic faith of very ancient times, and against the distortions and accretions of the Hierarchy at that time.

            This is bollocks.

            http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=protestant

            Protestant (n., adj.) Look up Protestant at Dictionary.com

            1539, from German or French protestant, from Latin protestantem (nominative protestans), present participle of protestari (see protest (n.)). Originally used of German princes and free cities who declared their dissent from (“protested”) the decision of the Diet of Speyer (1529), which reversed the liberal terms allowed Lutherans in 1526.

            When forced to make their choice between obedience to God and obedience to the Emperor, they were compelled to choose the former. [Thomas M. Lindsay, “A History of the Reformation,” New York, 1910]

            The word was taken up by the Lutherans in Germany (Swiss and French preferred Reformed). It became the general word for “adherents of the Reformation in Germany,” then “member of any Western church outside the Roman communion;” a sense first attested in English in 1553.

            In the 17c., ‘protestant’ was primarily opposed to ‘papist,’ and thus accepted by English Churchmen generally; in more recent times, being generally opposed to ‘Roman Catholic,’ or … to ‘Catholic,’ … it is viewed with disfavour by those who lay stress on the claim of the Anglican Church to be equally Catholic with the Roman. [OED]

            A catholic is someone who holds to the true faith of the early church and of the canon of scripture; that is what I do. I have not accepted any of the later additions and distortions.

            Catholic means “universal”, and your manner of extreme sectarianism is intrinsically antithetical to the Catholicity of the Faith.

            Men who dress up as ministers in their own little DIY “denominations” are as uncatholic as it is possible to be, and you certainly don’t get to decide all on your little own what Catholicism is or isn’t.

            2 Corinthians : {11:13} For false apostles, such as these deceitful workers, are presenting themselves as if they were Apostles of Christ.
            {11:14} And no wonder, for even Satan presents himself as if he were an Angel of light.
            {11:15} Therefore, it is no great thing if his ministers present themselves as if they were ministers of justice, for their end shall be according to their works.

            2 Peter :{2:1} But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be among you lying teachers, who will introduce divisions of perdition, and they will deny him who bought them, the Lord, bringing upon themselves swift destruction.
            {2:2} And many persons will follow their indulgences; through such persons, the way of truth will be blasphemed.
            {2:3} And in avarice, they will negotiate about you with false words. Their judgment, in the near future, is not delayed, and their perdition does not sleep.

            1 John :{4:1} Most beloved, do not be willing to believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see if they are of God. For many false prophets have gone out into the world.

            Matthew :{7:15} Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves.
            {7:16} You shall know them by their fruits. Can grapes be gathered from thorns, or figs from thistles?

            Leviticus :{19:33} If a newcomer lives in your land and abides among you, do not reproach him,
            {19:34} but let him be among you like one native born. And you shall love him as yourselves. For you were also newcomers in the land of Egypt. I am the Lord your God.

            Exodus :{22:21} You shall not harass the newcomer, nor shall you afflict him. For you yourselves were once newcomers in the land of Egypt.

            Hebrews :{13:1} May fraternal charity remain in you.
            {13:2} And do not be willing to forget hospitality. For by it, certain persons, without realizing it, have received Angels as guests.

            Deuteronomy :{10:17} For the Lord your God himself is the God of gods, and the Lord of lords, a God great and powerful and terrible, who favors no person and accepts no bribe.

            {10:18} He accomplishes judgment for the orphan and the widow. He loves the sojourner, and he gives him food as well as clothing.

            {10:19} Therefore, you also should love sojourners, for you also were new arrivals in the land of Egypt.

          • Revd Robert West

            This is very long-winded and in the end fades out into a number count on your part, which shows not a little exasperation on your part. The Latin for against is ‘contra’ so to speak against something is to contra-testify, whereas to speak for something is to pro-testify. As I say, I am of the catholic faith and have not accepted any of the accretions or distortions of the late Medieval period. You are welcome to continue in them if that is what you desire.

          • JabbaPapa

            The Latin for against is ‘contra’ so to speak against something is to contra-testify, whereas to speak for something is to pro-testify

            So in other words you’re going to completely ignore the etymology of the word in favour of your own sectarian interpretation.

            As well as ignoring or directly contradicting the teaching of the Scripture whenever it might happen to suit your extremist political ideologies.

            Gotcha.

            I am of the catholic faith

            No you jolly well aren’t.

          • Revd Robert West

            The etymology or source of a word is one thing, its meaning or semantics is quite another. Now we all know that words, whatever their origins, change meaning. The crucial question is what the word ‘protestatio” meant at the time that it was used at the Diet of Speyer, when the true catholics first used it against Medieval corruptions and distortions. And it then meant ‘pro’ or for, ‘testify’ to speak. In the phrase ‘I protest (affirm) my innocence” it still does. To argue whether or not it is in accord with its etymology is beside the point. So, you have got yourself on that one.

            The word ‘catholic” does indeed mean world-wide, but it took on the overtone of ‘orthodox” and correct, and that is how it is still used. Now if you read the church fathers of the 1st and 2nd centuries and later, they ‘pro-testified” as the later protestants did, and held to the faith of the holy scriptures only. Clement of Rome, Ignatius and Irenaeus all held that it was the New Testament which was final authority, and had no co-equals. That is what all genuine catholics still do: they pro-testify to an authority higher than themselves, the Holy Bible, which is always above the true church. It is the mark of a false ‘church’ that puts itself above the Holy Writings. The church fathers never did. And neither do the pro-testants of later years.

          • JabbaPapa

            Pseudo-theological cobblers.

            The word ‘catholic” does indeed mean world-wide

            No it doesn’t, it means “as pertaining to the wholeness”, usually translated as “universal” — referring not only to “the world” but to the entirety of Creation, including of course all of mankind considered together.

            it took on the overtone of ‘orthodox” and correct, and that is how it is still used

            Not by any orthodox Catholics it ain’t.

            pro-testify

            These made-up words are the ill fruit of your made-up pseudo-theology.

            It is the mark of a false ‘church’ that puts itself above the Holy Writings

            Which is exactly what you’re doing yourself.

          • Revd Robert West

            No: I do not put myself above scripture. We quote the Holy Scriptures as our final authority in all matters of belief and behaviour. This makes us the true catholics and to the truth of those Holy Sciptures, and under their authority, we will continue to pro-testify.

          • JabbaPapa

            What makes people Catholics is there adherence to the Catholicity — you do no such thing.

            The final Authority is NOT the Scripture : but God Himself through the Lord Christ, as you would know if you were a genuine Christian.

          • Revd Robert West

            I cannot agree with you on this point. What makes a person a true catholic, upholding the faith of the early church of the first and second centuries, is their adherence to what they held to be supreme, which was the Holy Scriptures of the Old and New Testaments. In any matter of dispute they settled it by appeal to the sacred writings of the Prophets of old, and the Apostles of later times. That was their universal (catholic) practise as recorded in their writings.

            Now you dispute whether the scriptures are final authority.

            This was not the attitude of the early church, the catholic sees of Ephesus, Alexandria, Lyons, Carthage, Jerusalem, Marsailles, Lyons, Milan, Rome or Thessalonica. That would mean, therefore, that you are the one who is not catholic. Now if you examine the sacred writings yourself, to which the catholic sees submitted themselves in the most orthodox fashion, they do not see any gap between God and Scritpure. If scritpure said something then that settled it as far as our Lord and His apostles were concerned, and as far as they were concerned too. Indeed in places the unity between the two is so close that God is actually called ‘Scritpure’. I can provide references if you want.

          • JabbaPapa

            Simply repeating these heterodox views multiple times, and seeking to justify them, simply means that the classical definition of the word “Heretic” is directly applicable to you as an individual.

            If you deny that God is the Final Authority, then you are lost.

            Matthew : {22:37} Jesus said to him: “ ‘You shall love the Lord your God from all your heart, and with all your soul and with all your mind.’
            {22:38} This is the greatest and first commandment.
            {22:39} But the second is similar to it: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’

            Various theological arguments belonging to the Quarrel of the Universals in Ancient, Mediaeval, and Early Modern Philosophy must be understood in their proper place, not substituted for the Orthodoxy of the Faith.

            Clearly, you’ve understood nothing of Saints Augustine, or Aquinas — nor I might add of Montaigne or Erasmus, both good Catholics. The Errors of Luther, Calvin, Zwingli, and Henry Tudor have destroyed the purity and universality of the Christian Faith in the minds of men such as yourself, in your petty-minded sectarian cults, where you substitute the worship of some intellectual doctrines of your own making for the honest Worship and Grace that is due to and comes from the Lord in His Revelation.

          • Revd Robert West

            You have quoted my final authority, Holy Scripture, to back-up your final authority, God. My point is that from the Holy Bible itself the two are one and the same. The problem from your point-of-view is where does your final authority make His word clear? Is it the Koran? Is it Mein Kamph? Is it the works of Lenin? Parliament’s final authority is expressed in an Act of Parliament. My point is that God’s final authority is expressed in Holy Scripture alone; and that is the view of the Scriptures themselves, and it was also the view of all of the early catholic sees. It does not seem to be your view, which would mean that you are the one at the current time who is not being catholic or scriptural or even Christian.

          • JabbaPapa

            My point is that from the Holy Bible itself the two are one and the same

            Nope — though some translations were made to support that notion.

            The λόγος in Greek, and the similar word in Hebrew, does not mean “the Scripture”, and Paul’s references to Holy Writings is not as limited as you suggest.

            It is **one** possible interpretation of many to think that God and Scripture are one, but only a sectarian can claim that it’s “the” truth to the exclusion of other valid interpretations.

            Meanwhile the crackpot views of a fake clergyman from a fake “church” in his own home do not determine who is Catholic and who isn’t.

          • Revd Robert West

            In Paul’s epistle to the Galatians, Galatians 3: 8, you will see that God, the source of Scripture, is so closely related to the Scriptures which He has inspired as His Word, that the word ‘Scritpure’ is actually uses as a synonym for God! The same is true in Galatians 3: 22. This is the catholic faith.

            So, back to my point to you: where does God make His Final Word and Final Authority clear to you? Do you accept it as Paul has given it or not? This will decide on whether you are a catholic.

          • JabbaPapa

            In Paul’s epistle to the Galatians, Galatians 3: 8, you will see that God, the source of Scripture, is so closely related to the Scriptures which He has inspired as His Word, that the word ‘Scritpure’ is actually uses as a synonym for God!

            What utter rubbish.

            Learn how to read, you nincompoop.

            {3:8} Thus Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, foretold to Abraham: “All nations shall be blessed in you.”

            You DO NOT understand the Revelation.

          • Revd Robert West

            You are not patient. The Scripture foreseeing means that God foresaw. Scripture is put for God. Why? Because, at the time of Abram, Scripture did not exist. But it is so closely related to the God who gave it, that God is called by its name. The main point is that you cannot thrust a wedge between God and Scripture, as you seem to be doing.

            You are quite right, however, that God has revealed Himself, naturally, in the creation and in the conscience and in providence. He has also revealed Himself supernaturally in Christ (the Word or Son of God). He also speaks, surely, through fellow church members and ministers. But where does He finally speak so that we may test all other claims to be His voice? Is it in the Koran or Mein Kampf? The answer from the Holy Scriptures is that He speaks in them as His Final Authority. As the supremacy of Parliament is expressed through Acts of Parliament, so the Final Authority of God is expressed through the Holy Scriptures. This is the witness of the Scriptures themselves, and of all the orthodox and catholic fathers of the early church.

          • JabbaPapa

            You are not patient. The Scripture foreseeing means that God foresaw.

            And you’re an idiot — a verse that makes a clear distinction between Scripture and God cannot be used to justify claiming them as the same.

            You do not understand even the basics of Trinitarian Theology.

          • Revd Robert West

            There is not a clear distinction between Scripture and God when it comes to Final Authority: they are identified exactly. ‘And the Scripture [God – because the Scritpure did not yet exist] foreseeing that God would justify…” (Gal 3: 8). This is not an uncommon idiom in Scripture to speak in this way. For example, Genesis 19: 24: ‘Then the LORD rained brimstnne and fire on Sodom and Gomorrah, from the LORD out of the heavens.” You will notice in the later quote that the noun, LORD, is used twice, instead of once and then followed by the pronoun, He, as we would tend to do. It is the same in Gal 3: 8 only the first noun, ‘Scripture” is a synonym for ‘God”. And the reason why it could be so used, as a synonym for God, is that you cannot drive a wedge between God and His Word. God gives revelation in many ways but expresses His Final Authority through His Word, the Holy Scriptures.

          • JabbaPapa

            you cannot drive a wedge between God and His Word

            You appear not to have read Exodus : {32:19} And when he had approached to the camp, he saw the calf and the dances. And being very angry, he threw down the tablets from his hand, and he broke them at the base of the mountain.

            Nor Genesis : {3:8} And when they had heard the voice of the Lord God taking a walk in Paradise in the afternoon breeze, Adam and his wife hid themselves from the face of the Lord God in the midst of the trees of Paradise.

            Still, I hardly expected you to understand anything of the Revelation in the first place.

          • Revd Robert West

            Again you are appealing to where God’s Final Authority is expressed, in His Word, and so observing the junction between God, who gave His final authority expressed in His Word, and His Word which is His Final Authority expressed. So, you are really backing-up all that I have said. That is the catholic faith of centuries one and two!!!

          • JabbaPapa

            cripes, you’re a moron

          • Revd Robert West

            So, you are not a catholic Christian. You deny where God’s final authority is expressed. Let me use an analogy. Parliament is supreme but Acts of Parliament are not. And yet you claim to be a parliamentarian. It is the same with God’s scripture. God is supreme, but not His scripture. Yet you claim to be catholic and scriptural in your faith.

    • Andrew Cole

      We need to stop the employer’s standard response of ‘we can’t get British workers’ when they don’t try to get British workers.

      What they meant back then was ‘We want to pay less’ and they just continue their lazy Brit myth so that they can keep wages down at the NWM they dropped them to a decade ago.

      If any government wants to talk about reducing welfare spending and getting more people back to work then they have to stop employers from spouting this mantra. How is the government ever going to ‘force’ people into work if there are no ‘unskilled’ jobs available because they are instantly filled with free-flowing agency workers?

      British workers didn’t just decide to stop doing service jobs, caring jobs and factory jobs in the space of a few years a decade ago. The employers saw profits and took advantage of the availability of workers to reduce their wage bills and hold them down ever since.

      • Revd Robert West

        I wholly agree: alien immigration has always been part of an unholy package to undermine the native workforce, in favour of those with plenty who just want more for less. But it in the end it undermines them too as it begets a society with less social capital.

    • Shorne

      Robert Malcolm Brian West, BSc, Dip Th, or self-styled, Reverend Robert West, is the founder of the Christian Council of Britain and a British National Party activist. He should read Matthew 25:35.

      • Revd Robert West

        You should read about the separation of the genealogical nations. Try the following: Genesis 10: 5, 20, 31, 32; Deuteronomy 32: 8; Psalm 86: 9; Acts 17: 26. Jesus commanded us to go into all the world (Mark 16: 15) and to make disciples of all nations, (Matthew 28: 19), not to bring them here. On your second rather ignorant point, I was ordained long before the current Archbishop of Canterbury, and he has only just caught up with me in asserting, as I have always done, that it is not – I repeat not – racist, to condemn mass immigration as a sin. You are obviously a public sector worker or a juvenile, and so we will make some allowances for you on all these matters.

        • Shorne

          You are clearly going to be numbered amongst the goats, hope you like it warm. You also add a whole new meaning to the word ‘arrogant’.

          • Revd Robert West

            Sour grapes? Are you a public sector worker or a juvenile straight from college? You have clearly been outscriptured. If I were you I would take the opportunity to learn from those who know a lot more than you do.

          • Shorne

            I’m a 65 year old retiree and I am grateful for you confirming what I said about you being arrogant.
            For people who have not come across the Revd Robert West, or to give him the full ecclesiastical styling he is entitled to, Robert West. Over the past few years, has constructed a fantasy lifestyle for himself in which he dresses in robes and dog collars and regularly turns out to conduct his ersatz “services” at various BNP functions. He also heads up a similarly fake BNP front organisation, “The Christian Council of Britain”. He has a certificate dated from 1978 that claims to show three terms of training from the Apostolic Church Bible College in Penygroes.However, the Apostolic Church has expressed no knowledge of Robert West, and has strongly distanced itself from his views. A spokesman is on record as saying “If he were an active member of the Church his views would not be accepted by the Church and disciplinary action would be undertaken by the Church which strongly distances itself from views such as these.”
            Anyway here he is at his charismatic best
            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UxQruA1PgF8

          • Revd Robert West

            You come across as somebody brain-zapped. Nobody is interested in what you have trolled from the internet. People make up their own minds, and the fact is that you have been outscripturated by me. Now if you want to get better, you need to cut the ad hominems and get to the point about the article in question.

          • Shorne

            Yes people do make up their own minds and that is why the BNP had a 99.7% drop in there vote in the 2015 election. Citing facts is not trolling. There is no such word as ‘outscripturate’ you have made it up in the same way as you have made yourself up.

          • Revd Robert West

            You do not use English very well: ‘there” should be ‘their”. I am happy with whatever way folk choose to vote, and so you will not hear a complaint from me on that score. However, what are facts and what you assume to be facts are not necessarily the same, and language is developing all the time; so there is no need for any of us to be stuck in the present. Are you denying that I am an ordained Minister simply on the strenght of what you have read on Wikipedia? I salute you for your faith in Wikipedia.

          • Shorne

            ‘strenght’ should be ‘strength’. The thing about Wikipedia is that it does not create its entries but it summarises what other sources have cited in this case it’s;
            http://www.ekklesia.co.uk/blogs/jonathan_bartley/rev_robert_west

          • Revd Robert West

            You, and Wikipedia, have cited Ekklesia. Is that a reliable source? Once again I commend your faith in them both.

          • Shorne

            More faith than I have in you.

          • Revd Robert West

            But that is where you started. Now what about my answer to you:

            ‘You should read about the separation of the genealogical nations. Try the following: Genesis 10: 5, 20, 31, 32; Deuteronomy 32: 8; Psalm 86: 9; Acts 17: 26. Jesus commanded us to go into all the world (Mark 16: 15) and to make disciples of all nations, (Matthew 28: 19) not to bring them here. On your second rather ignorant point, I was ordained long before the current Archbishop of Canterbury, and he has only just caught up with me in asserting, as I have always done, that it is not – I repeat not – racist, to condemn mass immigration as a sin. You are obviously a public sector worker or a juvenile, and so we will make some allowances for you on all these matters.”

            How about your faith in the Holy Bible?

          • JabbaPapa

            I once took the effort to demolish your extraordinarily biased interpretation of ALL those references to Scripture that you like to cut’n’paste left, right, and centre every single time you are challenged, which you then completely ignored.

            Why then would anyone reasonably expect anybody ever to make that effort again ?

            I can safely say, from experience, that you’re uninterested in that Scripture for itself, but merely trying to twist it out of its purposes for reasons of your own unreligious political agenda.

          • Revd Robert West

            The problem with your approach is that you are begging the question. This may be because you are a Marxist who does not believe in nations or in borders at all. Enough said. But that is not God’s view. And that is your problem.

          • JabbaPapa

            What a load of bollocks.

            You seem to be incapable of removing your head from the fundament of your political ideology.

          • Revd Robert West

            As I have shown you, I have put a Biblical case, that is a case citing many scriptures from both Testaments. If you could interact with that then that would give us all something to work on. But as it is, you are just giving your conclusions, without any strain or line of reasoning, on which anyone else can see why you have come to them; much less adopt them for themselves, or commend them to others.

          • JabbaPapa

            If you could interact with that then that would give us all something to work on

            I already did, some months ago, and you completely ignored my objections. I’ll NOT waste my time any more than necessary, because I know from experience that your blinkeredness is impervious to reason.

            You also completely ignored my own references to Scripture in this very thread. You expect what you refuse to provide yourself.

            So what, you’re an overt hypocrite too ? What a “surprise”. (not)

          • Revd Robert West

            I do not think that any scriptures that you can cite will back-up your case for re-buiding the Tower of Babel, which God destroyed, any more than you can for rebuilding Sodom and Gomorrah, which He overthrew by fire. But if you can now give some, then please do.

          • JabbaPapa

            cripes, what posturing bollocks

          • Revd Robert West

            In other words you cannot give any scriptures to support your case. Now that is quite an admission of fault on your part.

          • JabbaPapa

            I already have done, you ludicrous git.

          • Sanctimony

            Never knew bollocks could posture…

          • Shorne

            You have never been ordained in a sense that others would recognise . If you want to resort to quotes try Leviticus 19:33-34 and 24:22, Jeremiah 7:5-7,Romans 12:13 etc. It is easy to cherry pick from the Bible to justify almost anything, which is one of the reasons I am a non-believer. Here’s one that applies to you and, in fact, the BNP in general, Matthew 7:15. I was a Probation Officer for 30 years, a job which involves listening to a great deal if lies and deceit and hence I can see through you.

          • Revd Robert West

            Many do, in deed, recognise the fact of my ordination to the Ministry which foredates that of the current Archbishop of Cantebury, by decades, and makes me senior to him in terms of presbyterial precedence. He would have no problem recognising that fact, and nor would many in the Church of England. So, I think that you are on very shaky ground. You are surely allowing your preconceptions to befuddle your judgement, and this is perhaps why you were only ever a probation officer. I have never found those in the public sector good at thought, however highly they have rated themselves; that is why we have juries, not probation officers to get to the facts.

            Now I would ask you to engage with the scriptures that I have put to you and see if they do not indeed teach nations in their separate countries. If you could do that, which is the point of this posting, then we will have indeed made some progress and I will have fulfilled my Ministry.

          • JabbaPapa

            http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-lincolnshire-32702593

            A teacher who told pupils that “Muslims worship the devil” has been banned from the profession indefinitely.

            Reverend Robert West, who stood as a British National Party (BNP) candidate, made the comments during history lessons at a girls’ school in Grantham.

            The teacher has no connection to the Church of England. In 2006, he set up his own church, based in a house in Holbeach, to preach “traditional bible beliefs”.

          • Revd Robert West

            You are distorting things. I was teaching two classes of A-Level students at Grantham High School for Girls about the Crusades. It is usual in teaching to give both side’s views of each other, which I did. The Medievel Catholic view of Islam was that it was demonic, fair enough; that helps explain why they launched the Crusades in the Levant, and why some of them were so brutal. But I made clear, at the time of the lecture, that I was not a Medieval Catholic, but a Prot-testant Miinister. The Pro-testants were also victims of other Crusades, as you will know. Now that puts a rather different slant on things, and so thankyou, once again, for raising the issue, as it has enabled me to put the record straight. But to put the record even more straight, I gave the Mohammedan view of Christianity: that Christians worship three gods, are polytheists, are associators with God, and thus guilty of the sin that even Allah can not forgive, namely shirk. For teaching properly I was given a life-ban. That should worry even you.

          • JabbaPapa

            You seriously think that this ignorant and caricatural mish-mash is “proper teaching” ???

            And in what way might *I* be “distorting” things by quoting a third-party professional journalist’s statement about your biography ?

            The Pro-testants were also victims of other Crusades, as you will know

            a) There is no such thing as a “Prot-testant”

            b) There wasn’t a single Crusade Crusade launched against “the Protestants“.

            No wonder they fired you, History isn’t defined by the “slant” that one has, but by verifiable factuality.

            They fired you for incompetence.

          • Revd Robert West

            ‘You seriously think that this ignorant and caricatural mish-mash is “proper teaching” ???”.

            Can you say where it is wrong, factually I mean?

            ‘There is no such thing as a “Prot-testant””

            So no one can testify for, or pro, the truth?

            ‘There wasn’t a single Crusade Crusade launched against “the Protestants”. ”

            Have you not heard about the crusades in Europe? You are a very strange fellow if you have not. What about the Crusades launched against the Albigenses in southern France. That is in the history books. What about the crusades against the Waldensians in northern Italy? That is in the history books too. What about the crusades sent against the Hussites in Bohemia-Moravia? They are also in the history books.

            And it is no good saying that these folks were not pro-testifiers to the ancient catholic faith: Luther was accused of being a Hussite, a Lollard and even a heretic (a follower of Waldo). The Medieval Catholic Church, as it called itself, was launching Crusades everywhere. They even sent one to Prussia (East Prussia) in which Henry Bolingbrook, later Henry IV of Lancaster took part.

          • JabbaPapa

            Can you say where it is wrong, factually I mean?

            Your ludicrous claims are quite blatantly contrafactual, and you’ve just dumped another shovelful of your crap into this latest preposterous nonsense post.

            I’d say “don’t give up the day job”, except they fired you from it. Have you been forced to take something at Wimpy’s to make ends meet, or is your life entirely financed by the vile BNP ?

            I’ve NO IDEA why you think that behaving like the worst manner of internet troll might somehow “support” your idiotic political ideology, but it certainly does nothing along the way of persuading anyone that your self-attributed “reverend” honorific is anything other than a direct lie.

            Yeah, yeah, yeah — let’s pretend that a whole bunch of Heretics were all “catholic” !!!!

            And let’s pretend that you have anything worthwhile to say about the Faith, even though you are very clearly a disciple of its opposite.

          • Revd Robert West

            You seem to be in a perpetual tantrum, which is surely not good for your health. I am not a teacher, by the way, and so the banning of me from teaching is hardly a sanction, as I only did it part-time, as I am indeed a Minister. So, there is no loss there. On a personal note you will probably be asking why I taught. Well, the schools are so desperate that they have to take intelligent and highly educated men into them to teach, rather than the usual regiments of Corbyn-style ‘teechars”. And that is where things went wrong: I ended up educating folks, whereas I should have been programming and indoctrinating them into ‘multi-culturalism” and ‘poltical correctness” rather than educating them into the facts of history and theology. They are simpl the facts.

          • JabbaPapa

            Well, the schools are so desperate that they have to take intelligent and highly educated men into them to teach

            They must be thankful to be rid of you, then.

          • Revd Robert West

            But they are not rid of me. I will not go into that, however. The children especially appreciate an intelligent mind: it fascinates them. They worse thing they can do is to dumb-down. Children love to be challenged with intellectual discourse – it absolutely fascinates them.

          • James Burrow

            It’s a pity that religions aren’t defined by ‘verifiable factuality’ too!

          • JabbaPapa

            Verifiable factuality reveals what religions DO teach and what they do not.

            Were you more poorly educated two days ago than you are today ?

          • James E.

            Haha, obviously!

          • Shorne

            So if I ‘phone the Church that you say ordained you they would reverse what they have always said?
            Your grasp of the role of the Probation Service is abysmal, I only became involved with offenders after they had been convicted by the Courts.
            You have no legitimate Ministry and your arrogance shows no signs of abating.

          • Revd Robert West

            If you claim the ability to divine between innocence and guilt then why were you only brought in after a trial, whether at the magistrates or before a judge and jury? Why do you not get in touch with my ordaining denomination. They cannot deny my ordination because it is there in the paperwork, and they never have. If you read the reports carefully, or more carefully, you will see that there has never been a denial.

          • Shorne

            I did not claim the ‘ability to divine between innocence and guilt’ only to know when I was being lied to.
            You seem to think that if you repeat a lie often enough people will start believing it…now where have I heard that before? Oh yes,

            “If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it.”
            Joseph Goebbels

          • Revd Robert West

            Why do you not get in touch with my ordaining denomination. They cannot deny my ordination because it is there in the paperwork, and they never have. If you read the reports carefully, or more carefully, you will see that there has never been a denial.

          • gunnerbear

            “I have never found those in the public sector good at thought, however highly they have rated themselves….” ….says the man chopped as a teacher….. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-lincolnshire-32702593

          • Revd Robert West

            And just how highly rated is British ‘teaching’? Come on you must know that something is wrong with the public sector when it does not have the discipline of the market and the need to please its clients. You are a statist (a socialist) without realising it. And I am not a teacher: I am an educated man.

          • gunnerbear

            I’ve just got to ask….how do you have the ‘discipline of the market’ in education?

          • Revd Robert West

            Initially those who wanted education for their children did so privately, by getting a tutor to teach them in their own homes, and even to live with them. Then we had public schools where you could send, for a fee, your children to a school where others would also go too. Since you were paying, in both cases at the point of delivery, the fee payer had direct control over the quality of education. That is no longer the case in state schools. All you have is one level of bureaucracy over another. Maybe that explains to some extent how bad things have become. Believe you me it is bad. If you cannot tame you cannot teach! It is obvious, but they they do not seem to get it. You could try a bit of supply teaching if you want to, and see first-hand whether or not what I say is true.

          • Revd Robert West

            Leviticus 19:33-34 and 24:22, Jeremiah 7:5-7: Treat them well by all means if they are here in the first safe haven, and then as soon as it is safe for them to return, they must do so; otherwise you are going against the verses I cite. You must harmonise the points being made, ortherwise you become a discordant note, which is not the way to interpret instructions. You should know that as a Probation Thegn.

          • Shorne

            Jeremiah 7:5-7
            “If you really change your ways and your actions and deal with each other justly, 6 if you do not oppress the foreigner, the fatherless or the widow and do not shed innocent blood in this place, and if you do not follow other gods to your own harm, 7 then I will let you live in this place, in the land I gave your ancestors for ever and ever.”
            Leviticus 19:33
            “When a foreigner resides among you in your land, do not mistreat them. 34 The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt”
            Nowhere does it say that they must return. As Daniel Patrick Moynihan put it
            “You are entitled to your own opinion, but you are not entitled to your own facts.” Or two put it another way are you trying to improve on God’s word?
            Your last two sentences are decidedly odd, I mean ‘Thegn’ you really are in a World of your own. Incidentally please note I don’t think that we should conduct ourselves based on things written during the Bronze and Iron ages in what we now call the Middle East. I cite them because according to the dubious way you style yourself they represent your instruction manual.

          • Revd Robert West

            Thankyou, but do not be so racist against an Old English word, thegn! Are you not really setting up your own world of hatred and detestation of your own nation?

            However, we are not entitled to our own facts, agreed.

            But do these verses that you cite justify the abolition of nations separated into their countries. If they do, then we have set one part of scripture against the foundational parts of scripture in Genesis, which, it so happens, are also backed-up by the words and thoughts of both Jesus and Paul in the New Testament. Is it not more likely that you are misunderstanding and misapplying these verses that you rely on? I think that it is.

            The verses you cite refer to the ‘stranger’ which means the ‘foreigner’. Now that means someone who is out of place by race and geography. And he is out of place because he is in the wrong place. That asserts, surely, the separation of the genealogical nations into their own distinct countries; it surely does not deny it, it as you imagine. Now I am not suggesting that persons who are out of place should be mistreated. And there clearly must be some intermixture between the nations to facilitate their intercourse politically and economically, and even to a degree socially. And such as are abroad should be treated in such a way as to make sure of the mutually beneficial intercourse of the separated nations. Do not therefore mistreat them. I see no contradiction therefore, as you imagine. The separation of the genealogical nations into their own countries therefore stands.

          • Shorne

            ‘The term thegn from Old English þegn, ðegn, “servant, attendant, retainer”, “one who serves”, is commonly used to describe either an aristocratic retainer of a king or nobleman in Anglo-Saxon England’ things may have changed since I retired but I doubt if the term is used much in the Probation Service.
            “The verses you cite refer to the ‘stranger’ which means the ‘foreigner’. Now that means someone who is out of place by race and geography. And he is out of place because he is in the wrong place.”
            The designation ‘foreigner’ I quoted is in fact wrong
            וכי־יגור אתך גר
            בארצכם לא תונו
            אתו׃
            The noun גר is based on the verb gûr, “to sojourn” or “to tarry as a sojourner.” Gēr conveys both the idea of a “temporary dweller” and a “new-comer who had no inherited rights since he would not be related to those in the community or tribe.” Gēr is used 96 times in the Old Testament with 22 of those occurrences in the Book of Leviticus. The gēr is not seen as a “foreigner” (nakrî); instead he or she resides in the land but is not a native of the land.
            There is nothing to suggest as you claim “they are here in the first safe haven, and then as soon as it is safe for them to return, they must do so” Quite the opposite in fact
            כאזרח מכם יהיה
            לכם הגר הגר אתכם
            ואהבת לו כמוך
            כי־גרים הייתם
            בארץ מצרים אני
            יהוה אלהיכם
            Your views are fallacious but I suppose that when you are dealing with the aments (psychiatric, not botanical definition) of the BNP it doesn’t really matter.
            That will do I think, time to remember, yet again, my favourite Mark Twain quote “Never argue with a fool, onlookers may not be able to tell the difference”.

          • Revd Robert West

            I do not think that you are addressing the point at issue. You are trying to disprove that nations are to have their own countries, are you not? Well, it does not seem to me that you have done it. You quote verses about strangers (my term), or foreigners (your term) but they surely mean the same – not native born, and not of the same stoke – in the context of the verses that you have given. This does not mean that nations are not to have their own countries just because strangers (my term) or foreigners (your term) are to be well treated whilst they sojourn (your term) among them. Indeed your new term (sojourners or non-natives) agrees with my earlier contention that such are only temporary dwellers in any case, and so do not support your presumed contention of foreign colonisation of England.

          • JabbaPapa

            outscripturated

            ????????!!!???!!???!?

          • davejon

            Shorne: I am a long standing friend of the Rev Robert West and know him to be an excellent fellow, extremely well read in all manner of topics, not least the Holy Bible, and a gentleman. Your youtube clip is very informative of the way in which the three individuals on the TV panel and Nicky Campbell (and many audience members) have been rendered infantile and impotent by politically correctness and reduced to aiming ad hominem attacks on Rev West instead of defeating his argument (“Jesus in jackboots” indeed!). Their reaction is indicative of their own insecurities and I’m sure Robert will pray for them.

          • Shorne

            Your comment history is interesting, seldom have I seen so much racism, anti-Semitism and homophobia in one place, you must be an ornament for the BNP.

          • Shorne

            Your comment history is interesting, seldom have I seen so much racism, anti-Semitism and homophobia in one place, you must be an ornament for the BNP.

          • davejon

            You must be a very insecure and sensitive soul!

          • Shorne

            Not in the least, what I said was glaringly obvious. As for Mr West, (he’s not entitled to the ‘Rev.) he’s not the only one who is well read and his arguments are very easily defeated, for example
            ‘The noun גר is based on the verb gûr, “to sojourn” or “to tarry as a sojourner.” Gēr conveys both the idea of a “temporary dweller” and a “new-comer who had no inherited rights since he would not be related to those in the community or tribe.” Gēr is used 96 times in the Old Testament with 22 of those occurrences in the Book of Leviticus. The gēr is not seen as a “foreigner” (nakrî); instead he or she resides in the land but is not a native of the land.’
            There is nothing to suggest as you claim “they are here in the first safe haven, and then as soon as it is safe for them to return, they must do so”

    • gunnerbear

      “How about instilling some discipline back in schools?” What does that mean? At the moment HMG is making 16-18 year old’s stay in school – I was out of the gates of my school and that was that. How are teachers going to control a class of 16 year old’s who blatantly don’t want to be there?

      • Revd Robert West

        I think that we should restore grammar schools at 11 together with the cane and slipper for children when they are really naughty. How about the blackboard and chalk and talk, together with the hardback text book and O-levels. When you have heaven on earth already, there is no need to ‘modernise’. All of the kids who are not grammar school can leave and begin to work at 14, and those who have got the academic slant must remain until 15 and then go on under bursaries, if they want to, until 18; and then grant-supported for University, free of fee-paying. For those of a technical slant bursaries could support them at the Polytechnics, which should have parity of esteem with the Universities. This is not putting the clock back: it is making sure that it tells the right time, and does not create an illusion.

        • gunnerbear

          “All of the kids who are not grammar school can leave and begin to work at 14…..” I’ve just to ask….what jobs have you got for them?

          • Revd Robert West

            Although I am a Minister of the Gospel I have done supply teaching work for a time, and after quickly establishing rapport with the boys and girls, I find out what they like and what they do with themselves: a lot of them are not academic and really like to work with Mum and Dad. And, of course, sharing the same genes with their parents and grand parents it is not surprising that they are not Middle Class, and that they like doing the same things that their forebears did, and were good at.

            Jobs: there a plenty of jobs which they begin to learn about and pick-up on an evening or at a weekend.

            It would help to have apprenticeships, but they got rid of them after centuries of us having a skilled practical workforce; and if we ended immigration and equal opportunities for women in the workplace, that would help immensely, as it would provide more jobs for the boys, and more boys with jobs, whom the girls could then wed. That is how a nation keeps going.

          • gunnerbear

            “Jobs: there a plenty of jobs which they begin to learn about and pick-up on an evening or at a weekend.” Those aren’t full time jobs. Apprenticeships are extremely expensive to deliver correctly i.e over a number of years with day release at college – that’s why there are so few of them about. Ohh…tell women to stop working…..wow….best ask lots of chaps if they want to be nurses or teachers then and hope for best. No more female police officers then? Or hedge fund managers?

          • JabbaPapa

            Although I am a Minister of the Gospel

            No you aren’t.

            As demonstrated by this post, you’re just a politician giving yourself airs, feebly attempting to spread a “religious” veneer on the despicable racism of the BNP.

          • Revd Robert West

            You are bunging about that word again. How about getting yourself a couple of brain cells.

    • gunnerbear

      “How about becoming more self-respecting, positive and nationalistic, and sending young men for a few years into the Armed Forces where a good sergeant major can shout at them!!! That changed the attitudes amongst the youth in the 1950s. It did it then, and it can be done again.” Go on, what’s your evidence for that? If National Service was such a good idea why did the Royal Navy fight tooth and nail to keep National Service personnel out of the Navy? It’s anecdotal, but I know a few older guys, all retired now, but in their working life all reached responsible engineering positions – and to a man all have said that National Service was nothing more than giant, utter, waste of time that did nothing for them.

      • Revd Robert West

        Self-assessment is not always a good thing. The Regular Army did not like national service either. But the point is that it changed attitudes and outlooks in those who underwent it; something that they would not necessarily appreciate themselves, but which others who noticed, did.

        • gunnerbear

          So you’ve offered no evidence then to support your statement?

          • Revd Robert West

            I am going on reports that I have heard over many years from Regular Army soldiers – who did not like the National Service era – and from the National Service recruits who gave testimony of what it did for them or others.

    • gunnerbear

      “How about encouraging women to have children in wedlock and not to abandon home and hearth, but to stay at home and rear them properly there?” Best get stacks more houses built then so it becomes affordable to buy on one income. Of course that would mean building all over leafy suburbs and ‘shires.

      • Revd Robert West

        The market has been distorted by the double income household and I think that you will find that, as we went back to the single income house, the market would re-adjust. The main driver of excessive urbanisation is immigration, so your worry about the green belt is best dealt with, I think, by ending mass immigration and instigating some positive repatriation. Don’t worry about being ‘racist’; that is in most cases a word which is bunged about on everything, and on most things to do with immigration, it has no application whatever.

        • JabbaPapa

          Is that “theology” ?

  • BillBill

    Dalrymple is interesting but utterly bleak in his outlook and without a shred of empathy for the lower class white British. If he can’t think of anything to write on any day he will laugh at them for being fat.

    Could this not be because Anthony Daniels, to use his real name, doesn’t consider Britain in any serious way ‘home’. His father was Russian and his mother was a Jewish German who was forced to flee the Nazis.

    We should all be completely aware now that Dalrymple-style immigration is an giant, unsustainable Ponzi scheme, but without any religious belief or any blood-and-soil connection Dalrymple can offer no hope and no solution.

    • http://www.theoccidentalobserver.net/ StJohnofAustria

      Yes he is a jew following modernist teaching of the Frankfurt school. Marcuse,Adorno would be proud of the annihilation of White Christian Civilization .

      • Anna Bananahammok

        pathetic

      • oldoddjobs

        Do your homework, silly.

  • Christian

    Absent immigrant workers, pay for these service jobs would rise until it attracted enough of the natives to meet the falling demand for (or provision of) these services as they became less affordable.

    It would appear that we would overall be worse off unless we were amongst the low skilled natives whose pay would rise.

    The hidden cost, the economic externality, is the offer we make to immigrants of inclusion in our welfare state and of participation in our national economic and cultural patrimony. They gain access to all this as part of their compensation package when they migrate to take up the work, whereas natives already have it, and so it provides no further incentive. The cost of this access is borne collectively, while the benefit accrues to the particular employer and consumer of the immigrant’s services.

    The ultimate risk is of transforming one of the very few advanced societies into something more like the rest of the world: one which no longer produces the innovation which so benefits the whole of humanity, and one in which our accustomed political freedoms must yield to the security demands of managing ethnic conflict in a diverse society. (Garret Jones, Hive Mind, and Ed West, passim)

  • Patrick

    Britain should do what every other country outside the West (and what japan does) have migrants who work in Britain (with the right papers, medical insurance, private schooling if they have kids etc) and when they finish their contract they go home. The pay in Britain is higher compared to most of the world and people would come and work, as they do in all other countries. The idea of giving everything free (and a passport after 4-5 years ) to someone who might have one-five or more kids, but works in a fast food shop or a taxi is madness. they will never pay enough tax to cover a tenth of the cost. I have lived as an ex-pat in egypt for nine years and the idea that i should have the right to an egyptian passport is laughable. My wife had one of our sons in an egyptian hospital (Bupa insurance) and he has no right to a passport as he is not egyptian. Most countries do this and it works well for all of them

  • ardenjm

    The grim irony is that in the last 40 years Western Europe has aborted about the same number of its own children as it has imported in Muslim workers: tens of millions.
    The correlation is a horribly revealing one.
    First: we prefer personal license and living without consequences to responsibility, social well-being and the common good.
    That’s got an old name of course: pure selfishness.
    Second: KILLING YOUR OWN INFANTS IS NOT GOOD FOR YOUR LONG TERM FUTURE.

    • Malcolm Stevas

      If you read the article again you will see that the issue is not to do with numbers, but social attitudes. Don’t try to hijack the piece for your personal anti-abortion agenda.

      • JabbaPapa

        Are you as moronic as you appear ?

        Not only is murdering people intrinsically evil, but euthanising your own culture back into the Dark Ages is the acme of ideological blindness.

        • Malcolm Stevas

          Clearly this is a subject that suppresses your ability to comment usefully and dispassionately.

          • JabbaPapa

            Substituting the words “I disagree” with such bollocks as you have confected is neither “useful” nor “dispassionate”.

            You’ve still not answered my question, nor addressed my comment. Does your social attitude prevent it ?

          • Malcolm Stevas

            If you seriously expect me to answer your very rude rhetorical question you’re very silly… You remind me of what a good blogger wrote recently about Trump: one of his less endearing characteristics is the tendency to meet disagreement or criticism (or merely a different viewpoint) with immediate, coarse, ill-tempered confrontation. First you call me a moron, now you say I write bollocks – when in fact I just disagree, like many millions of others, with your fundamentalist, passionate, unreasoning hostility to abortion. The topic is in any case a side issue, your own hobbyhorse, not the subject under discussion.
            Your curious reference to “social attitude” is obscure. You are too extreme, and though I’ve seen you write sensibly it’s clearly the case – to repeat – that you have a bee in your bonnet about abortion, and cannot (or will not) tolerate dissent, to the extent that you fly off the handle. It’s immature and unpleasant.

          • JabbaPapa

            Your own “fundamentalist, passionate, unreasoning” support for abortion is, quite apart from being the active and willing collaboration with intrinsic evil that I mentioned, a support for the exact blinkered political decisions that have led to the catastrophic demographic crisis in Western Europe that the article is trying to spin doctor into a some kind of “positive”.

            The fact remains — we’ve created an artificial “need” for migrants by artificially eliminating our own offspring, and by actively encouraging women to take contraceptive pharmaceuticals on a daily basis.

          • Malcolm Stevas

            You see, you’re not capable, apparently, of appreciating that one can hold opinions in a firm yet reasonable fashion, open to dissent and argument: my general support for wome’s freedom (in a free society) to engage in abortion is not at all “fundamentalist, passionate, unreasoning”. Your own extremes of feeling cause you to imagine that those holding opinions different from your own must necessarily be some sort of fanatical oddballs. It’s a problem you need to deal with.
            And your closing sentence is an assertion not any sort of objective statement of observable fact: it’s your personal interpretation, shared I suggest by not all that many people. In fact your explanation for mass immigration is unique in my experience: I’ve never met anyone previously who expressed such a view, and I’ve mixed with a very wide variety of people, in various countries and different ranks of society.

          • JabbaPapa

            You see, you’re not capable, apparently, of appreciating that one can hold opinions in a firm yet reasonable fashion, open to dissent and argument

            You characterised abortion as a “personal agenda”, and that to discuss it in the framework of the clearly demographic topic of migration is to “hijack” the topic, and that, I maintain, is stupid.

            The relationship between the two questions is clear — and your knee-jerk reaction against ardenjm’s position, describing it as “tendentious”, unjustifiably scorning his cognitive abilities, is, in my opinion, unreasoning in its nature, passionate in its motivations (“women’s freedom” ; “free society”), fundamentalist in its scope (your characterisation of his opinions, and then mine, leaves no room for doubt that you believe your views to require universal application everywhere).

            extremes of feeling

            You have not a SHRED of evidence to support the ludicrous contention that my views on this question are motivated by some surrender of the intellect to whatever emotionalism. You’re just making this story up out of thin air as a means to avoid taking ardenjm’s position seriously, which BTW is the orthodox position of the Catholic Church, regardless of how many Catholics might disobey Humanae Vitae themselves.

            cause you to imagine that those holding opinions different from your own must necessarily be some sort of fanatical oddballs

            This is bollocks — I consider the character of each individual person that I disagree with on an individual basis. In point of fact, YOU are the one accusing both ardenjm and myself of having some kind of fanatical “agenda”.

            You didn’t exactly hold back from attacking me in turn, either, did you ?

            In fact your explanation for mass immigration is unique in my experience

            That’s hardly my fault, is it ?

            (oh, and let’s ignore the FACT that there are two people here with the same position, not just me alone)

            See : https://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=low+fertility+causing+immigration&hl=en

            and for starters : http://www.unishare.it/files/12220/colemanthirddemotransition.pdf

          • Malcolm Stevas

            I see elsewhere that you’re a Catholic, and seemingly still concerned about the nasty things historical figures did to your co-religionists. I think this is all we need to know. You are motivated on your own admission by non-rational beliefs (call it “surrender of the intellect to whatever emotionalism” if you like), rather like all these Muslims we hear so much about… I simply read what you write, and when you (and that other bloke) make
            clearly tendentious assertions (I’m sure you know what that means) I say
            so. I see that EU stuff you cite does not refer to abortion, even supposing one might accept the EU’s judgement – for professional reasons I’ve seen a great deal of internal EU material and it is staggeringly weird.

          • JabbaPapa

            You are motivated on your own admission by non-rational beliefs

            Right, so you’re just another tedious atheist bigot, then, gotcha.

            Your complaints about the failings of others are staggeringly hypocritical, and thank you anyway for answering my aggressive rhetorical question if you are as moronic as you appear to be.

          • Malcolm Stevas

            At a (very) brief glance I count at least three insults there, which seems par for the course with you. I’m not an atheist – but there’s no point in discussing the finer details and I wouldn’t waste my time. If you think everyone who rejects either your anti-abortion extremism or your religion is tedious, bigoted, moronic, dogmatic, opinionated – etc etc – I doubt you have much of a social life. Feel free to stew in your own bile, in solitude and savage intolerance of the rest of humanity…

          • JabbaPapa

            You’re a bloody ghastly hypocrite, aren’t you, as already stated.

            I’m not an atheist

            Malcolm Stevas (3 months ago) :Predictable response, since you are reluctant to recognise that as the believer in fundamentally irrational, superstitious ideas, the onus is upon you to offer credible arguments for your beliefs. It is very far from being my responsibility to show that they’re wrong! OK? Remember, it’s you who believes in the Sky Fairy.

          • Malcolm Stevas

            Your single-minded urgency to find fault would have done credit to the Inquisition, and I dare say you’d have me burned as readily for my agnosticism as for being the atheist which I am not and have never declared myself to be. Look, this exchange isn’t going anywhere since anything you say whether on-topic or not is informed irrationally by RC superstition, and while some people’s savage bile can be colourful & entertaining, yours isn’t. Bonne soirée.

          • JabbaPapa

            I am an ex-agnostic — actual agnostics do not describe religious belief as you do, routinely, using such vitriolic phrases as “fundamentally irrational” or “Sky Fairy”.

            Atheists OTOH who like to give themselves airs by trendily using the “agnostic” word are exactly so hypocritical as to deny their own atheism.

            Or what, are you waiting for some non-existent rooster to crow three times ?

            I am not responsible for your ghastly hypocrisy.

          • gunnerbear

            “Your single-minded urgency to find fault would have done credit to the Inquisition…” So clearly the Inquisition like behaviour surprised you, it was most unexpected so to speak…..

          • Malcolm Stevas

            Nobody expects the…

      • ardenjm

        On the contrary. Our ‘social attitude’ towards the unborn, to contraception and abortion, is a direct cause of our demographic death spiral. You don’t refute my point with your personal ideological blinkeredness: you exemplify it.

        • Malcolm Stevas

          You request refutation, as if you understand what argument is, but you just made three tendentious assertions without the least attempt at constructive argument or adducing evidence.

  • Ambientereal

    The main mistake is to consider that the only kind of migrants Britain could have are muslim. That is “completely” wrong. You can have Chinese, Indian (non muslim) and Latin-Americans. Brazil and Mexico have huge populations and in Central America are many English speaking populations. Latin America is mostly catholic and peaceful. So I ask why when thinking of immigration everybody thinks in muslim.

    • BillBill

      I don’t want to live in Chandigarh or Guatemala City thanks.

    • Dutchnick

      Because the non Muslim immigrants represent no threat to me or my society. Indeed our office is hugely international and is better for it. Incidentally with no Muslims out of about 90 people.

      • shadsfan

        Lets hope you can keep it that way.

  • Phyllyp Sparowe

    If a system needs X migrants for every existing citizen then isn’t the societal model a Ponzi/pyramid scheme? One doomed to failure because eventually the new people or the resources to sustain them run out.

    • JabbaPapa

      Yep.

  • BillBill

    Note that Dalrymple says we need migrants to hold us over the toilet in our old age. The supporters of migration have spent 50 years saying we needed it otherwise our food would be boring but now that just sounds silly.

    So what will be the next reason for migration that the open borders crowd comes up with? Essential comfort women for lonely men? Guards to control intra-ethnic violence? Priests to give meaningless lives some hope? Plenty of jobs white people won’t do in a Dalrymple world!

  • Andrew Smith

    If a country should need mass migration (that says a lot about said society) then that’s fine. But we should be able to choose who comes and how they behave when they get here.

  • Randal

    Our need for migrants, then, has a cultural, not an economic root. This does not mean, however, that we need all the migrants we are likely to get from wherever we get them.

    More to the point, how are we ever to remedy the cultural deficiencies Dalrymple correctly notes, if the crutch of mass immigration is there to paper over the problems they create – in the short run?

    Meanwhile the insidious harm that mass immigration necessarily causes to any target society continues, and to the extent that the second generation of immigrants does absorb the cultural attitude of the surrounding society, they no longer provide the solutions and become problems of their own.

    Whatever the problems it serves to cover up, in the long run mass immigration must end.

    • Tom Cullem

      Well said. And one of the deficiencies that mass immigration covers up is the failure of school systems that produce a qualified, motivated workforce. It is much harder and more expensive to make state schools systems work than to bring in cheap immigrant labour. The immigrant economy is a boon for business owners but not for long-term health of societies who claim to want the buy-in and loyalty of its citizens, but do as little as possible to create a society in which those citizens have a viable stake.

    • Kandanada

      We were being told, until very recently, that mass immigration would pay the pensions for our old people.

      Surely, if this were true, the pensionable age would not be going up.

  • Bristol_Boy

    Immigrant apologists continue to miss the point in that if they are indeed needed because of lack of trained or capable people to fill the roles the immigrants supposedly fill, then the monumental question should be why are there not enough ‘home grown’ trained and capable people?
    That decades of EU, political mismanagement, incompetence and destruction of society, education and an easy welfare system have all contributed to the appalling state of Britain today, and that state can be landed directly at the feet of incompetent, self serving and not fit for purpose political parasites.
    But by far the greatest blame takers are the very people who continuously vote for these failed and rotten people each and every election.

  • Michael H Kenyon

    Surely it was a centuries-worth of Marxism and trade union Bolshieness, and the recognition that Marx rarely convinces the developing nations outside the political class and their hangers on, that lead to the conclusion that cheap apolitical workers can do all that the ingrate unionised won’t? And here we are…

  • Malcolm Stevas

    I first read Dr Dalrymple’s “Spectator” pieces years ago and he’s an acute observer as well as an excellent, entertaining writer. But since he writes about healthcare (or at least a closely related subject) he should be aware of the extraordinary numbers of foreign-born doctors here, not just in the NHS but in private practice too. I’ve encountered quite a few, and some of them were genuinely excellent. But the negative social attitudes to which Dalrymple refers do not apply to medicine – far from it. Qualifying as a doctor confers high status and very high earning potential.
    So why for decades (quite literally) have I been reading lamentations about the chronic shortage of home-grown doctors? Why has our wealthy well-populated country, with very high standards of medical education and some of the world’s top universities, proved unable to produce enough doctors, and compelled us to import them from all over the planet? It cannot be that all our own simply emigrate – though I’m aware that many do, and I have known one or two personally who left for higher salaries in a better climate.

    • Blindsideflanker

      Or that the Government didn’t want to ensure there were enough Medical course places at Universities in order for us to train the necessary number of Doctors.

      • Malcolm Stevas

        Because those 6+ years of training are far more costly than the 3 years for those many who want to do Media Studies? Yes, perfectly conceivable – though I’d have thought a more rational policy of dumping useless subjects while increasing places for engineering, medicine and so on would not cost a huge amount more, while serving the country far better.

    • AQ42

      “Why has our wealthy well-populated country, with very high standards of medical education and some of the world’s top universities, proved unable to produce enough doctors, and compelled us to import them from all over the planet? ”

      Because it was a deliberate stitch up between the Treasury and the BMA not to train enough doctors. The BMA thought that it meant that the home-grown doctor would never lack a job and would have the best possible chance of rising to consultant grade, as foreign doctors would either go home with the prestige of working in Britain on their CVs, or stay to fill the posts that were non-promotable. The Treasury, at a time when it effectively paid for all doctors’ training, wanted, as usual, something for nothing.

      Though there were doctors in my family I never wanted to be one, but at A level stage I witnessed classmates being summarily rejected from medical schools. Perhaps they weren’t the very best, but it always troubles me that perhaps they might have been as good if not better doctors than the ones from abroad. I gather that the situation persists to this day.

      • Blindsideflanker

        I gather it is the same with the supply of nurses, where nurse medical courses are massively over subscribed, but the cheapskate establishment doesn’t want to pay for them.

      • Malcolm Stevas

        Interesting. I was always aware of the exacting standard required, and indeed when at school in the ’60s it was only the very best A-level students who were admitted to read medicine. One would have thought that by now someone in government (and the BMA) might have seen the light and improved matters…

        • AQ42

          There has been an increase in medical school places but there still aren’t enough to train all the doctors we need.

          • Malcolm Stevas

            And if anyone is talking about a further increase in places, I haven’t heard of it.

        • WarriorPrincess111111

          For those who wanted to become Doctor’s in the UK, it was at one time insufficient to have obtained high exam results. The potential medical practitioner had to prove that he really was concerned for people and that he was absolutely sincere in his/her intentions to help the people. Not any more!

      • WarriorPrincess111111

        I don’t want to scare you all – but do you remember the various incidences of, let’s just say, poor procedures of some of the overseas medical doctors that have been published of late? Well – some of these Doctors have to attend 4 years of study abroad, after convincing their medical board that they are suitable for the job. Late last year, the British Medical Journal published that a particular medical board was corrupt and had been for many decades. Bearing in mind that it is of vital importance to obtain the title of a medical Doctor at any expense for at least one particular nation! In hospitals in Britain the great unsuspecting British public are being attended to by some of the graduates from that council!

        • Jab

          Which country?

          • gunnerbear

            The BMJ ran a series of articles – most seemed to pick out India.

      • gunnerbear

        “The Treasury, at a time when it effectively paid for all doctors’ training, wanted, as usual, something for nothing.” That’s what the up vote was for!

    • Tom M

      The corollary to that is why do these medics from third world countries come to the UK? Why don’t they go to wherever our home grown variety go?

    • WarriorPrincess111111

      The same reason! overseas Doctor’s will work for less pay than British Doctor’s can afford to. Many of the NHS Doctor’s are now Asian. In India, there is a caste system – bit like the British Classes only far more serious. Once a person is borne of a low caste there is no way that they can rise to the higher status – there is just one way out. By studying and becoming a medical doctor! This position carries a very high standard of respect in India. So whether they care about people or not, whether they believe in saving lives or not – it is a great personal achievement. For any salary – they have their status!
      This is the reason why so many overseas Doctor’s fail the basic clinical tests carried out by the NHS and they are made to retake the exams until they pass. The British Doctor’s have a very high pass rate – but they also have a right to a decent wage.

    • Jab

      Its been like that for years. the attitude to the education of the working class was and is despise.The young people were and are poorly educated and the places at medical school kept too low to keep wages high.Consequently there were too few medica and we had to import them.I know Italy very well where the places in medical school were filled with Italians and were adequate.I never met any third world country medics there. However in Europe they earn much less than here in the Uk.

  • Blindsideflanker

    “Not a single person to whom I have put this question has ever hesitated for a moment: he chooses the Pole.”

    Which shows that the propaganda the British establishment has launched against its people, for the benefit of corporations who want to employ cheap labour, has been a successful one.

  • Blindsideflanker

    You wouldn’t have a problem finding British people to work at jobs if the wage was a reasonable one. The propaganda of the establishment has it that the British are unwilling to work, when it is not their unwillingness to work, it is their unwillingness to work for the rotten wages on offer.

    • JabbaPapa

      Just had the exact same conversation on a local French bus. With a bunch of Arabs.

      We are systematically destroying our heritage, honour, and wealth.

      The systemic unwillingness to provide an honest day’s wage for an honest day’s work, but at the same time expecting maximum income for minimum work, is hateful.

      • Blindsideflanker

        Trouble is it has wider implications. By rigging the employment market with cheap immigrant labour drives up the cost of resources, like housing costs, which makes employment even less attractive to local people, but it also blunts a necessary development of our economy, like the higher cost of labour requiring the employers to invest in productivity, as well as weeding out low value low skilled work, which is better off shored to low cost labour countries, instead keeping them here that ends up with the state having to subsidise them.

        Here in support of my argument I point to the high level of housing subsidy the state has to hand out, in work benefits like Tax Credits, the abysmal levels of productivity we have, and the fact that we have more people in work than ever in our history, yet incapable of making the budget balance.

        • JabbaPapa

          Yep.

        • WarriorPrincess111111

          Further more – the Government complain that the cost of benefits for an ageing population is increasing, yet the thousands of immigrants that they have enticed to the UK are also ageing!

  • Andrew Cole

    Yet another well to do person belittling the working class Brits. These care jobs were done by British before. Then they were tendered out to independent care companies who cut the pay and refused to pay travelling time inbetween calls.

    Just as in the factories where it isn’t about ‘Lazy Brits’ or ‘they are only doing jobs the Brits won’t do or They are not undercutting wages because there is the NWM

    The reality is that successive governments have helped reduce the wage bill of these jobs and then denied that employers have done so and then hidden behind the NWM when none of these jobs were NWM before.

    The reality is that British workers complain when they are not paid for half of every hour that they are travelling to the next client and the care companies have gotten away with it for a decade now until last week when finally someone won a case in court on the issue and now the flood gates will open.

    I am sick of hearing that British workers are too lazy to do these jobs when they were doing them before and would do them again. Would you expect them to be happy with still earning the same hourly rate now (NWM) when they were earning that hourly rate in 2004? That is for those that weren’t just dumped out of employment to be replaced by agency workers.

    • artemis in france

      Yes, I’m disappointed that Dalrymple, normally a brilliant and incisive writer, has missed the economic argument here. No doubt some, but not all by any means, migrant workers give a good service but this is because they are willing to be exploited by agencies. Does Dalrymple think it’s all right for native workers, who simply want to be treated respectfully, to be frozen out of the job market by a more subservient and grateful work force who possibly don’t have mortgages to pay?

  • Cyril Sneer

    If you feel that way about our culture perhaps you would like to f ck off.

    • 100

      Second that! In fact I’ll pay for his plane ticket!

  • Cyril Sneer

    Theodore Dalrymple needs a damn good beating.

  • Stephen Milroy

    Is it April 1st already?

  • gerronwithit

    Oh for God’s sake, just shut up Dalrymple. The evidence of all the immigration is decimating Europe piece by piece and yet I still gave to listen to the nauseous platitudes from pampered, protected species such as yourself lurking in the BBC and Eurofunded ‘enterprises’, continually given far more airtime than is fair to promote your elitist propaganda. Not going to happen much longer.

    • http://Andrewmcneilis.com/ Andrew McNeilis

      Thank you. Nicely put

    • 100

      Thank God for your comment some sanity in this continued downward spiral of liberal self hate.

    • https://chaunceytinker.wordpress.com/ Chauncey Tinker

      Only when we face the underlying causes of our decline will we start to reverse it. The catastrophic drop in the birth rate of the British, most acute among the middle classes, is the biggest problem we have. The same problem is playing out all over Europe.

      The pressure of high taxes – to support those who don’t work and who have large families on welfare, to support the NHS, and to support the growing numbers on state pensions is one large factor. Another is the fact that constant immigration drives house prices endlessly upwards.

      • James Burrow

        Very well put.

      • Margot5000

        No, it’s the high birthrate among other sections.

        • https://chaunceytinker.wordpress.com/ Chauncey Tinker

          The high birth rate that we are supporting among those on welfare is part of what I’m talking about. We need to stop paying those people to replace the decent hard working ones.

    • kitten

      I’m bored to tears of the ‘progressive liberals’ mantra of;
      “British people = bad”
      “Foreign people = good” narrative.

      It’s inane, simplistic, prejudiced tosh.

  • Jeremy Cooke

    The more Eastern European replacements for non-EU immigration we get the better – at least they are our people, our tribe.

    The non-EU immigrants are not and, no matter how nice they are to your Mother-in-law, they never will be.

    • FrancescaMacfarlane

      You seem to be a trifle confused. The members of “our tribe” are the Anglophone nations – ie Americans, Canadians , Australians, New Zealanders, Indians and most other Commonwealth nationalities. It is the European nations with their Napoleonic law, convoluted property rights, no habeas corpus, trial by jury etc. that are the real aliens – the East Europeans even more so after forty years of communist indoctrination. The scandal of the EU is that it forces us to take in the aliens in unlimited quantities, but does not permit us to welcome those who share our culture.

      • Jeremy Cooke

        Nope – I’m a European as are the Anglophone nations. We disagree on that point.

  • James

    Dalrymple is pointing out the actual sociological reasons that mass immigration is acceptable to our post modern Western societies. And the psychological reasons. I did not glean from this article of his that he does not understand the economic ramifications. He’s pointing out the snobbishness of all the lazy slobs who prefer that immigrants do the lowly work instead of allowing a place for our own people who need that sort of employment. I will add to what Dalrymple said that I think just plain old fashioned stupidity is involved, too, based on my reading of a lot of these stupid mindless comments.

    • WarriorPrincess111111

      James has accepted the misconception that has been repeated in the media numerous times, that of the British being a lazy nation. I would like to point out additional facts that have also been published in leading newspapers that James and Dalrymple appear to have missed. There have been 80,000 applications from British nurses turned down by the NHS over a period of ten years. While NHS management staff have actively travelled to the Philippines to recruit nursing staff and have been disappointed that too few speak English. There are more than 8000 British Doctors who graduate in the UK every year and who become very frustrated in not being able to find suitable employment with acceptable pay levels and good career prospects- many of these have had to travel abroad. For the majority of the British population, many have been forced into part time work because there are too few job vacancies to provide full time work for them although they would like nothing better than to be allowed to work in full time employment, some home owners cannot afford to work in low paid industries for they would have insufficient money to pay their bills. For the first time ever, the wage levels in the city of London have reduced to less than that of rural areas. The number one killer in the UK now is suicide. There are a huge number of 18 – 30 year unemployed because the work has been given to under eighteen year old and overseas labour. Far too many graduates have already moved abroad to obtain work with better pay and prospects. Still the British chase every vacancy in the hope that they can find a decent job – determined to ignore the ‘Lazy Brit’ tag! There are now according to the TUC a true figure of 6.5 million people unemployed in the UK, while there are 6.7 million overseas people employed in the UK! These are the facts, I am not trying to sell newspapers!

      • James

        I’m glad you made the point that people try to get the jobs that the immigrants get but are systematically denied. It seems the real problem is not the people who want the jobs, but rather the elitist scum at the top who have a hidden agenda of displacing the traditional British people and replacing them with Third World people, who will be more amenable to the totalitarian police state they desire to establish. It’s the same over here across the pond.
        In my defense, if not Mr Dalrymple’s, I did not accept the misconception so much as let my self be confused and somewhat temporarily blinded by it. Those of us who sincerely seek the truth will continue to help each other to see the truth in a spirit of goodwill.
        The attitude problem is at the top, not lower down. But the top would like to convince everyone that it is the opposite. Many people don’t like it when I use the word “conspiracy,” so, I humor them by substituting the word “cahootancy.”

    • 100

      Your the snob here looking down and spitting venom at the chavs that are white and lazy. Give it a rest, take your heartfelt emotions elsewhere. Nauseating sycophant.

      • James

        God resists the proud and gives grace to the humble. And God is not a respecter of persons. Everyone shall bear their own burden. The rich have their problems and the poor have their problems and what’s left of the middle class also have their own problems. The one class I hate are the political ruling class, which is not equivalent to the “rich.”
        Is it spitting venom to tell people the truth? That we the people got our selves into a jam and a pickle because we voted stupidly and we voted for a free lunch that could never be provided? We voted for a socialist government to take care of us and now it’s taking care of us but good. We gave up control of our own lives and now we’re shocked stunned and amazed that we have no control over our own lives any more?

        I’m sorry but I have to call that “stupid.” Doesn’t mean I don’t have sympathy, but my sympathy begins with telling people the truth they need to go about setting things right.

  • greencoat

    Mass immigration temporarily eases a quite solveable problem in the short run and gradually creates a much larger and much more intractable problem in the long run.
    It is quite remarkable that someone of Dalrymple’s intellect cannot see this.

  • Bardirect

    At the same time as welcoming people from abroad many European countries which had maintained National service stopped it. eg France in the mid 90’s. Ours ended much earlier but the lie in bed culture which is creating the need for additional immigrants can be associated with these changes Would it not be reasonable to resume some form of mandatory military or civil national service to instill in those without it a sense of being part of and contributing to their home or chosen society, building up reserve military capacity, provide a different path for educational opportunities and equally to identify those who wish to play no part in their country of origin or choice, with a view to reviewing the status and civic rights of those people? I would also consider it an appropriate option in sentencing minor offenders too. What else can we do if significant numbers reject society and their own place within it?

    • gunnerbear

      Strange isn’t it – that when we had mass industry and a person in it could earn a decent (if not brilliant wage) we didn’t seem to have quite so many social problems. Then of course HMGs of all colours decided we’d all become bond traders (or more likely coffee shop workers) because HMG decided that UK industry couldn’t compete against (better state supported) competitors….

  • Disqus Bolloqus

    The whole history of the human race is the history of humans moving across the surface of the Earth; from Out of Africa to the present day. How are we to change basic human instinct to move in search of a better life?

    • 100

      Not on this volume

    • Yorkieeye

      If you think life is better here then embrace here. Don’t try to replicate the dump that you left.

    • Hippograd

      Israel and Japan seem to manage it.

    • Badger

      Borders.

  • Ivan Ewan

    The premise of this argument is false.

    We may, or may not, need migrants to a varying degree.

    But we currently do not have any control over who turns up.

    We’re in the middle of a housing shortage and it’s no wonder. Last year, there were enough new immigrants to fill the whole resident capacity of Derby.

    Our young people can just about cope with the tremendous difficulties in getting and keeping a job these days, with masses of EU regulations stifling the growth of small businesses on one hand, and cheap imported labour on the other hand.

    But combined with a housing shortage, the smug sanctimonious types who harp on about the wonders of mass immigration should prepare themselves for an army of the homeless accosting them as they walk down the high street – that is, if they ever condescend to walk among us. I’m sure they usually fly.

  • Mike

    Note how none of his MiL’s caregivers are from North Africa, despite the number of North Africans in France…

    • Control Freak

      And that his “thought experiment” about which nationality a putative employer of unskilled labour would choose is limited to a choice between a Briton and a Pole. I wonder why he didn’t suggest, say, a Briton and a Somali; we have large numbers of the latter in the UK and almost all are available for work. This loaded vox pop simply seeks to prop up what is little more than a self-centred anecdote; he gets a very good deal from compliant immigrant carers, therefore immigration is a great thing.

      • Mike

        Good point about Somalis vs English.

        A acquaintance worked Security with a large number of Somalis. The man didn’t start off racist, and dislikes the fact that he has become so.

        It must be quite difficult for the Somalis who just want to fit in: their distinctive look is likely to get them “lumped” in with the rest.

        • gunnerbear

          No…he’s not become a racist….he’s become a realist.

          • Mike

            I’ll tell him that next time he brings up some stories about his Somali colleagues and the irritating stuff that they do.

            One of his last rants roughly went like this: someone gifted their group a bunch of food just before the shift change. Him and his (non-Somali) buddies went out of their way to eat only all the pork-related items, leaving the rest for the Somalis that were about to show up. When they did show up, he pointed out that they’d finished off all the pork only to leave them the rest. Not even a thank you was uttered, it was as if it was taken as a given that they would do this. Probably not again…

            What’s interesting is that he says that this group has managed not only to piss off the “natives”, but also the other immigrant workers, who often do most of the complaining (the whites presumably being afraid of being labelled “racist”).

  • octagon<3

    Migration in itself is a neutral development. It really doesn’t matter where people come from, as long as they adopt the culture, customs, language, and loyalties of their new homes. Migration is not so great when people come to a country and demand that others change to suit their customs and beliefs. This is displacement and tantamount to invasion. This idea that the world can be split into natives vs. immigrants denies the fact that some cultures are more compatible with British values than others.

    • Hippograd

      Migration in itself is a neutral development.

      What a wise and noble statement.

      It really doesn’t matter where people come from, as long as they adopt the culture, customs, language, and loyalties of their new homes.

      Of course it matters, O Wise One. Third-world people don’t and can’t adopt the culture of the First World. Muslims are particularly bad.

  • Augustus

    “The discrimination and the deprivation, the sense of alarm and of resentment, lies not with the immigrant population but with those among whom they have come and are still coming….

    But while, to the immigrant, entry to this country was admission to privileges and opportunities eagerly sought, the impact upon the existing population was very different. For reasons which they could not comprehend, and in pursuance of a decision by default, on which they were never consulted, they found themselves made strangers in their own country. They found their wives unable to obtain hospital beds in childbirth, their children unable to obtain school places, their homes and neighbourhoods changed beyond recognition, their plans and prospects for the future defeated; at work they found that employers hesitated to apply to the immigrant worker the standards of discipline and competence required of the native-born worker; they began to hear, as time went by, more and more voices which told them that they were now the unwanted.”
    -Enoch Powell (1968)

    • beelzebub

      Incredible quote, thanks.

  • 100

    Oh give ma break why is the Spectator sliding into the rag of the libtards apologists. Who is this author

    • goodsoldier

      He has interesting things to say about drug abuse. Watch him on youtube.

  • Giles Toman

    If we told our own people to either work well or die of starvation, they would soon have a better attitude

    • kievjoy

      If they could get work. When Len and I were out of work for 2 years every time we went for an interview we were told either we were too old, or two well qualified. Many who are out of work would work, if they were given the chance.

    • gunnerbear

      Better have a job for them then, a job that pays enough so they don’t need benefits……

  • hobspawn

    Is any of the three carers a Christian by any chance?

    • Shorne

      Probably at least two are,
      Cape Verde, 95% Christian
      Haiti, 96%
      Mauritius Christianity is the second largest religious grouping after Hinduism.
      A couple of minutes research stops people looking stupid.

  • hobspawn

    The snobbery problem which killed British employment prospects is slightly different from the one described here. It is the inverted snobbery of the union member who knows in great detail everything that he can not be required to do. He fosters a self-destructive hostility to the management and proprietors, and obstructs all innovation and flexibility. His attitude is the reason why we prefer to employ foreigners.

    • gunnerbear

      “He fosters a self-destructive hostility to the management and proprietors, and obstructs all innovation and flexibility. His attitude is the reason why we prefer to employ foreigners.” What decade are you living in?

  • Owen_Morgan

    I do wish Theodore Dalrymple would just retire to South Georgia. My comment is posted under my own name. I know why Anthony Daniels used to use a nom-de-plume, but it’s not obvious why he feels the need to hide behind one now. His comments are intemperate drivel (and it’s pretty rich for him to call anyone else “snobbish”).

    I know perfectly well that there are lots of British hotels with very good British staff. I also acknowledge that there British hotels with very good Polish staff. Did poor Anthony get a substandard fifth G&T, when he was last at the Dorchester?

  • samton909

    You don’t get it .

    Societies that use contraception tend to die off.

    You are not having enough children, so immigrants come to fill the void. I know you have fallen for the old “Oh, there are too many people”. stuff, but in fact, if your society gets hooked on not having kids, It dies.

    Muslims then fill the void.

    The sooner you realize this, the sooner you can solve your problems. If you don’t realize this, Europe is a goner.

    • Pioneer

      Not necessarily. A population may reduce to point where resources per head are plentiful ( e.g. cheaper housing) then the birth rate increases to replacement level. It stabilises at that point.

      That won’t happen if mass immigration has been been enacted.

    • ItwasBlairwotdunnit

      Quite right. More children. That’s the answer. Might I suggest, in our more equal world, men step up to the plate and start having some. The burden of this seems entirely borne by women at the moment.

    • WTF

      Natural chaos theory has always worked better than government planning. You’re falling for that “we’re all going to be extinct” fear baiting stunt rather than appreciating that things tend to balance out better on their own than interfering by dumping alien cultures in our midst which we can already see is destroying the country.

  • Child_of_Thatcher

    Funny before mass immigration I don’t remember the NHS broken, vegetables rotting in the fields no waiters in restaurants.

    • Shorne

      During the 1960s such were the staff shortages in the NHS that a Tory Minister of Health set out to recruit staff from Africa and Asia, thousands responded. The Minster was Enoch Powell…hypocritical s*d.

  • styants64

    In the post WW2 years successive governments and the liberal open door mass immigration policies have destroyed a large part of the fabric of British society, The millions of communities up and down the land have been broken up they fought through 10 years of total world war last century and British liberal left-wing Have destroyed most of what they fought for, left wing progressives?have seriously damaged our Civilisation.

  • Baz1875

    I just don’t know how we would manage without so many immigrants but I would like to find out.

    • Shorne

      Possibly the most selfish comment I have read this year.

      • MungBean

        Why is it selfish? It might be considered a bit foolhardy by some, but it’s not selfish to throw caution to the wind in search of self-reliance.

      • Richard Baranov

        It is not a selfish comment it is factual. It is bizarre to me that leftist ideologists such as yourself can’t tell the difference between fact and ideology so immured in your leftist cant are you. And it is because of the lack of will to deal with the truth by your sort that we find ourselves in this situation.

        • Shorne

          Me a ‘leftish’ ideologist’ I hope my children don’t read this, they will hurt themselves laughing.

          • Richard Baranov

            Then, if you are not a leftist, you are quite simply a dimwit in that you cannot discern fact from ideology.

          • Shorne

            What fact?

          • James Burrow

            Perhaps he’s a ‘rightist Republican Trumpist’ ?

      • goodsoldier

        You don’t care about all the people sleeping rough, using food banks, unable to afford decent housing, crammed hospitals, and no cultural unity whatsoever growing worse yearly. We are becoming alienated by enforced mass immigration that benefits the greedy.

  • Baz1875

    When the programme of immigration started i 1948 there was a shortage of labour. This was the effect of the war of course, many jobs still done by hand as investment in machinery had been absent for six years and much of our power provided by coal and steam. That was then. Today the situation is different. Business expects an increase in profits year on year and the government has become addicted to immigration as a way to expand the economy, without any plan to accommodate, educate or care for the immigrants, and without border controls, with no possibility of forming those plans. Whether the increased population has any work to do – obviously it hasn’t – does not come into the equation. But for the British people who are under this pile somewhere, every immigrant places pressures on wage rates, on rents, on the capacity of he health service and schools, not to mention social destruction and tensions, and the toffee nosed idiots in the political class will not see it as it doesn’t affect them in their detached houses and limousines.

    • Hippograd

      After the Black Death there was a “shortage of labour”. That’s why wages went up. The greed of businessmen is not a good guide to what’s best for a country.

      • WTF

        The laws of supply and demand although not perfect have worked far better than social engineering in my life time.

  • Anna Bananahammok

    In Britain over 50% of Muslim males and 80% of muslim females do not work and live off benefits. In muslim countries, the elderly (not to mention women and children) are left behind in war zones, to be mass killed by terrorists.
    To think that these ungrateful parasites will one day wipe our elderly white people clean, when they mass rape our young white children, and hide and protect the rapists in their communities, is so delusional, it makes me think Theo might be slightly returded.

    • Shorne

      The UK population is only 5.02% Muslim. Nearly half of them live in the most deprived areas of the country hence high unemployment. Pictures we see of refugees gives the lie to you assertion that the elderly, women and children are left behind in war zones. If you object to their caring for our elderly go out and do it yourself, you won’t though generally speaking White people won’t and without Muslims the Care Home system and the NHS would virtually collapse. Terms like ‘our young white children’ are basically ignorant, most of the Rochdale victims were in Care and hence basically weren’t anybody’s and nobody cared about them.

      • MungBean

        80% of refugees registered in Germany are fighting age men. Pictures are anecdotal. Stats don’t lie.

        • Shorne

          ‘Pictures are anecdotal’ Stats don’t lie’ that is totally stupid.

          • MungBean

            Why is it stupid?

          • Shorne

            ‘The camera cannot lie’
            ‘Lies,damn lies, and statistics.’

          • MungBean

            Seriously? Are you being willfully stupid or are you just plain thick? 80% of the immigrants are fighting aged men. It’s a simple statistic. It’s unable to be argued with. Are you saying photos of one of the few families with or without children is evidence of greater value than an absolute statistic? Then again, why am I surprised? Quantifiable, empirical evidence has never something that the increasingly moronic Left appreciates.

          • Shorne

            Fighting age men are more likely to be coerced into joining militias, and stop assuming that everybody who disagrees with you is a ‘lefty’, I simply don’t like bullsh*ters.

          • MungBean

            Oh yes. That’s right. The fighting aged men who are escaping being “coerced into militias”. And I suppose the women are hanging in there to be raped. Yep, that’s the sort of people that are needed: those who abandon women, children, the sick and old, when the going gets tough.

          • Shorne

            From Time Magazine (no particular axe to grind)
            “And while most of the foreign fighters are young men, the same is true of those fleeing the fighting. Many doubtless are escaping conscription into the Syrian armed forces, which President Bashar Assad in a July speech admitted faces major manpower shortages. Almost all are a vanguard for families waiting to follow them. You don’t send a mother or a grandfather to scout a route to a new home. You send the hardiest and least vulnerable—males in their late teens to middle age.”
            They are also the age group most likely to be coerced into joining militias.

          • MungBean

            “You don’t send a mother or a grandfather to scout a route to a new home.”

            Oh what tosh. Paying a people smuggler and travelling almost unobstructed on foot (and by Eurail) from Turkey (a safe country) to Sweden & Germany, isn’t “scouting a route”.

            And Europeans escaping WW2 didn’t leave grandma behind to face the wolves.

            Time has no axe to grind? Rahahaha. Excuse me while I pick my jaw off the ground. It’s a leftist rag whose agenda would’ve been considered extremist just 30 years ago.

          • Shorne

            You’re quite wrong but it doesn’t matter because what you think doesn’t matter as you are politically powerless…like me.

      • Anna Bananahammok

        Muslim populations double every 15 years. By 2030 we will have 10% Muslims.

        We have thousands of mass raped girls with less than 5% of Muslims, what do you think will happened when they double?

        Europe will have roughly 100 Million Muslims by then.

        For the rest of your comment, Muslims live exactly how they deserve and prefer to live, whether they live in misery and squalor in our lands, or in their own lands, either way, they live like the shiits that they are, it’s not their fault though, nothing ever is, especially Muslims killing Muslims in the largest numbers worldwide: that’s definitely not their fault.

        Implying that raping young girls is absolutely not the fault of the rapists themselves, but exclusively our fault, makes me think you must be either muslim or retarded, which are not mutually exclusive, since Muslims also suffer from the highest rates of inbreeding in the world, that leads to a significant drop in their collective IQ every couple of generations.
        Maybe you’re the one who’s ignorant.

        • Shorne

          Ah yes as soon as I see that someone hides their comment history one can be confident they they will be a classic lying, bile-spewing SEL. So evidence for these ‘tens of thousands of victims’ and ‘100 Million Muslims’
          Also as is so common with your kind we see classic straw man tactics. I did not say that the rapists were not at fault I just called attention to the rank hypocrisy in you use of the term ‘our children’. By the way during my 30 years as a Probation Officer I did more via Court and Parole Reports to ensure Schedule One offenders were locked up and/or stayed locked up than you will ever do.

          • Anna Bananahammok

            Weak response, classic.

          • Shorne

            Still no sign of evidence I see.

          • dwarfpoo

            there is plenty of evidence. people walk through their slum and garbage ridden filth going to work each day. regards

          • Shorne

            Links? Examples? Pictures? Muslims wash five times a day, I bet you don’t.
            Another person too cowardly to display their comment history I see.

          • Anna Bananahammok

            See, they can’t even wash properly.
            Wash 5 times a day and still live in filth and squalor.
            Pray 5 times a day, and still slaughter their own.
            Fast on Ramadan, and still fattest people, after Americans.

            Losers.

          • dwarfpoo

            I wonder if the burqa is the only item of clothing left to fit the undulating mass of blubber.

          • Shorne

            Oh it’s wonderful when the likes of you display their total ignorance, still ‘ignorant’ and ‘bigot’ usually go together. Muslims were making soap in the 7th Century.

          • dwarfpoo

            it took them that long to make soap! pahahaa…. Celts and Gauls long before ole MO.

          • Shorne

            Castile soap, the ancestor of what we use today, was a Muslim invention. So you will have to mix fat and wood ash now if you don’t want to use it.

          • dwarfpoo

            wrong, go check again.. where does the word muslim originate from dear….

          • Shorne

            Read the post again.

          • dwarfpoo

            get your History in order, ..clue…..try working out where Celts came in the timeline..

          • dwarfpoo

            bore off and look for them yourself.

        • Shazza

          BTW historic evidence shows that the muslim population has doubled every decade (not every fifteen years) so by 2045 it will be at 40% – currently we have circa 5% (official).

          As a matter of interest, in France it is currently circa 10% but 25% of their teenage population is muslim.

      • SunnyD

        5% of the UK population is Muslim. 15% of the UK’s prison population is also Muslim.
        Seems like a good number of them are too busy building empires (especially with 33% in London’s Belmarsh) to think about meaningful careers in nursing and care….

        • Shorne

          I was a Probation Officer for 30 years and spent the last 13 of them working in an Inner City Cat. B Local Prison. The statistics for the religions of prisoners are based entirely on self-disclosure by the prisoners themselves. Non-Muslim Prisoners say they are Muslims for the same reason that youths join gangs, they seek solidarity, protection and a sense of belonging. In prisons they also think they will get better food (they don’t) and think it will give them an edge over the staff. Some are coerced by other prisoners. Also attendance at religious services of all denominations provide an opportunity for drug dealing etc. Most of them suddenly decide they aren’t Muslims when Ramadan comes around, as was pointed out to me by the Prison’s Imams. An in-depth study of HMP Whitemoor, part of the High Security Estate like Belmarsh, found that over 50% of the self-identifying Muslims were nothing of the kind.

          • SunnyD

            Yes I know. I’ve been in Scrubs, Wanno, Woodhill and Winch. I used to attend Mass for the same reasons as you describe. Also, my gf was a drugs worker and agrees that prisoners chose Islam, not just for “better food” but for the association opportunities too. But let this not blind you to the terror creeping into our prison system as a result of the high profile Islamist scum currently riding their bang up.
            BTW I pitied the probation officers. Theirs is a thankless task akin to trying to push 10 pieces of string with 1 hand

          • Shorne

            Now how can I put this? I found that a bigger problem came from people who holiday in Rathkeale. You may know what I mean. As far as my former profession is concerned it’s getting worse by the day, to think I voted Tory in 2010.

          • SunnyD

            haha – I’m half Irish and have a fairly good idea: my dad would call them “tinkers”

          • dwarfpoo

            non – muslim prisoners pretend to be muslims for various reasons but most change their mind at ramadan , you also cite an in- depth study in Whitemoor to back up your claim…

            you mean this place..

            Following concerns over Islamic radicalisation in a 2008 report by inspectors, researchers visited Whitemoor between 2009 and 2010 to interview staff and inmates.

            They found that more than a third (35 to 39 per cent) of prisoners are now Muslims, compared with 11 per cent across all jails.

            Many of those they spoke to had converted while inside but they had mixed motivations for doing so, and not all had done so voluntarily.

            Non-Muslims and prison officers claimed that it was an “organised gang” and a “protection racket” rather than a religion, which “glorified terrorist behaviour and exploited the fear related to it”.

            Others said they had felt under pressure to convert, with people leaving Islamic literature in their cells and telling them to “read this”, or promising they would be safe from physical assault if they changed faith.

            Colin Moses, national chairman of prison workers’ trade union, the POA, said not all Muslims in prison were in gangs, but acknowledged there was a growing problem.

            Colin Moses argues prison staff need more resources to tackle the problem

            “People are being radicalised, forcibly radicalised by these gangs”As the Muslim population grows, the gangs are becoming more and more prevalent by the week and they fight to take control of the drug trade and the dealing of mobile phones in prison.

            “This will make our prisons even more violent,” he added.

            however your comments would suggest the greatest danger posed is by “ Tinkers”..

            bye now

          • Shorne

            Err…yes that’s what the in depth study I cited found but thanks for confirming it.

          • dwarfpoo

            confirming how wrong you were dear. I think I will take the evidence supplied by the Head of the prison service , contradicts your little “tale”.

            maybe next time you call people bigots you should review your own comments on “Tinkers”.

          • WTF

            There is of course a simple physical check that could disprove you are not a Muslim, I wonder if they check when they’re in the showers ?

      • WTF

        Especially social services and plod but even when a father did care about his daughter, he was almost arrested by plod for being a racist !

  • Philsopinion

    There are five million unemployed or underemployed people in this country. We clearly do not need further migrant labour.

    Secondly, an increasing fuss is going to be made in the coming years about inequality vis a vis economic outcomes for black and minority ethnic people (largely caused one would add by Labour’s doubling of the ethnic minority population in just ten years). Leaving aside the question of whether perfect equality can ever be attained or maintained – they do not need further labour market competition.

    Thirdly, it is precisely because we have had so much immigration in such a short period of time – and because much of it has been from cultures wholly alien to ours – that we have so many unnecessary issues to deal with today, be it FGM, grooming gangs, jihadism, gun crime, whatever.

    We need a long period of stability, integration and assimilation.

    • Johnnydub

      NO we need to fundamentally address the welfare state and its bitter legacy of perverse incentives and civilisation destroying outcomes.

  • MungBean

    A good mate of mine used to run pubs in the city of London. His hiring screening process would instantly exclude West and South European men, and would favour East European, Antipodean and American (North and South) women over others.

  • Jackthesmilingblack

    Test

  • SunnyD

    As a temp, (once upon a time) I’ve worked in hotels making beds, in silver service on naval bases and events, kitchen porter in kitchens and throughout those days I was generally (apart from the Head Chef and Head of Housekeeping) the only English person in the team. Although (at the time) I was busy making up for lost time (misspent youth) by building up a work history (with longevity and good references) and cultivating a strong work ethic, it saddened me to realise that among my compatriots, I was one of the exceptions, rather than the norm. My equals (in terms of ability, punctuality, etc.) were by and large Polish. That wasn’t an easy pill to swallow….
    My good lady is an NHS Health Care Support Worker (like a District Nurse) and she regularly comments on the numbers of foreign home help she encounters during her working week. They often work very long hours for minimum pay whilst we see UK counterparts spitting out babies and complaining about foreigners claiming “their benefits”. It gives me no pleasure to say this: but it’s true to say that a lot of these foreign workers are more enterprising and hard working than some in the UK I know will ever be. And I blame the Welfare State and feckless parents for the majority of the uselessness inherent in some of the UK’s adult population today.
    I would love it if a natural event were to take us all back to the Stone Age, I’d sit and watch enthralled while the useless ne’er do wells cry out for an absent Nanny State…. In the end, unless you’re good for something, you’re good for nothing.

  • boiledcabbage

    Allowing a jihadi army to return to Europe from ISIS may have been the most catastrophic decision ever made by political leaders in Europe. This pffaff from Dalrymple is part of the problem , not the solution. It is part of the arrogant European mindset that ‘certain’ beliefs will change when people from the 3rd world settle here. No, people dont change their beliefs, and no, many muslims, for example, do not integrate. Unless we want a violent, Balkanised, unstable Europe, the dependant attitudes to migrants of other faiths, like those expressed here, have to be ditched. They belong to a different era. The people from East Europe are nominally Christian and have integrated within a couple of months.

  • James Chilton

    Many in the underclass of what used to be called “manual labourers” have a bad attitude. They refuse to get out of bed, etc.

    I don’t think it follows that we need to import huge numbers of foreigners to do the work the uneducated could, or ought to be, doing. Why not try incentives for finding a job by, for example, cutting or abolishing benefits for those who won’t work.

  • James Chilton

    Many in the underclass of what used to be called “manual labourers” have a bad attitude. They refuse to get out of bed, etc.

    I don’t think it follows that we need to import huge numbers of foreigners to do the work the uneducated could, or ought to be, doing. Why not try incentives for finding a job by, for example, cutting or abolishing benefits for those who won’t work.

  • Doctor Crackles

    We aren’t breeding enough it is as simple as that. Native Britons need to have more babies.

    The irony is that idiots like Dalrymple hate children and believe in population control.

    • Johnnydub

      And its the tax burden to pay benefits, not to mention the social costs to get access to better schools to keep your kids away from the underclass that mean the people in the middle have fewer kids. Conversely the underclass breed kids for the benefits.

      Anyone see what the solution might be?

      • Doctor Crackles

        Abolish welfarism.

  • Hippograd

    Like his communist father, Theodore Dalrymple is driven by hatred of the British, not love of foreigners. But then he isn’t genuinely British and like so many of his co-ethnics he doesn’t care what happens to the country that hosted him.

    This sentence breathes snobbery and disdain…

    Indeed.

    • Andy JS

      You’ve managed to completely misunderstand nearly everything that he’s written in this article.

      • Hippograd

        Oh dear. I thought he was, as he usually is, sneering at the white British. praising foreigners and assisting the cause of Guardianista liberalism.

        My mistake. I’ll have to read it again and spot the way he condemns mass immigration for causing so much harm to the white working-class. As New Labour intended:

        Labour let in 2.2million migrants during its 13 years in power – more than twice the population of Birmingham. Lord Glasman, 49, had already told BBC Radio 4 recently: ‘What you have with immigration is the idea that people should travel all over the world in search of higher-paying jobs, often to undercut existing workforces, and somehow in the Labour Party we got into a position that that was a good thing. Now obviously it undermines solidarity, it undermines relationships, and in the scale that it’s been going on in England, it can undermine the possibility of politics entirely.’

        The academic, who directs the faith and citizenship programme at London Metropolitan University, criticised Labour for being ‘hostile to the English working class’. He said: ‘In many ways [Labour] viewed working-class voters as an obstacle to progress. Their commitment to various civil rights, anti-racism, meant that often working-class voters … were seen as racist, resistant to change, homophobic and generally reactionary. So in many ways you had a terrible situation where a Labour government was hostile to the English working class.’

        http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1377477/Ed-Miliband-ally-attacks-Labour-migration-lies.html

  • mahatmacoatmabag

    This is a short but well written article that should worry every UK tax payer – The Death of Europe by Daniel Greenfield
    How the Mohammed retirement plan will kill Europe
    http: // www. frontpagemag. com /fpm /260511/ death-europe-daniel-greenfield

  • ClausewitzTheMunificent

    Curious, rather Roman isn’t it, to depend on a continuously expanding influx of “slaves” or low paid workers to sustain the economic foundations of our societies. It doesn’t take much to work out where we’re headed, does it? Rather like the Roman model which broke down because of the long-term corrupting influence of extreme political and economic inequality and consequent Roman philosophical, religious, social and military decline, our model is unsustainable in the long run.

    P.S. The Roman upper and middle classes also had very poor fertility because they felt unburdened by social responsibility and too would rather indulge in empty hedonism.

    • Doctor Crackles

      Correct assertion Clausewitz. When women neglect their reproductive function we are doomed. Rome also practised child murder and of girls in particular. The parallels are there for those with opened eyes.

  • William Brown

    Whilst the UK needs and should welcome immigrants to work here, we should be able to choose who they are and what skills they have to offer our country, culture and, of course, our economy. None of this is possible whilst we reside within the EU.

  • MC73

    Dear old Theo regurgitates his “aren’t the lower orders simply awful” tripe again. Impressive really, that he’s made a career out of this. Next week, “Don’t vote ‘leave’ and leave me with all these ghastly peasants”…

    Incidentally, in the case of skills shortages, the solution is training in the long-term and expats, not immigrants in the short-term.

    • Andy JS

      How can you possibly think that is what he’s saying? He’s just about the only person singing the praises of ordinary people. He’s against the upper-class snobs. His point is that the behaviour of poor Europeans is completely understandable. They’ve lost confidence in their own culture.

      • MC73

        “the young French, as the young British, do not have the right attitude”

        “With the exception of family hotels, for example, all good hotels in Britain employ exclusively foreign labour. If you want to go to a really bad large hotel in Britain, find one in which the staff are British. It is then guaranteed to be ill-kept, with slovenly service, quite possibly not very clean, with atrocious food, grubby staff, inattention to detail and so forth. Even a foreign telephonist is likely to be better, and to speak better English, than an English telephonist. If you want a good or even only a decent hotel, you must find one in which all the staff are foreign.”

        Yeah, up the indigenous workers, sys Theo…

  • Robert Basset

    Soooooo..
    We need “migrants” (illegals, eco-migs, asylum…which?) to watch over us as we die.
    Is that the best you’ve got? Serves as a tidy metaphor for the entire mess I suppose.

    But no, we don’t.
    What we need is a functioning border control system.
    To know who comes in and why and for how long.
    To reject those who are illegal, those who are seeking hand outs and those who pose a credible threat to the native people.
    To provide training and employment for British workers who then pay taxes, not import cut price lackeys who send the money out of the UK.

    We also need to deport the many illegals already here.

    Without borders, nations don’t exist.
    Change the people and you change the culture.
    Demographics is destiny.

    Our ancestors knew this, why do the mass of todays mouthpieces not?

    • OmnipotentWizard

      So you didn’t actually produce any counter argument to the need for people to look after the elderly.

      Have another go and see if you can actually address the issues raised in the article this time.

      • Robert Basset

        There are millions of unemployed Britons, without the holy migrants they would be given the jobs for decent wages.

        • OmnipotentWizard

          Incorrect. If there weren’t migrants to do the “dirty” jobs then the lazy unemployed wouldn’t want to (as they are too comfortable on benefits). So either the jobs wouldn’t get done and the sick and elderly would suffer or increased wages would lead to higher prices and taxes.

          • WTF

            Wrong, if the government provided proper job training programs leading to reasonable salaries and denied benefits for those unwilling to take them, we could provide UK workers to fill these jobs. There is a skill threshold tied into money paid that causes this problem and government is mainly to blame.

            The problem is wages are deliberately held down by government, as they believe its cheaper to steal trained staff from third world countries at slave labour rates and still pay job seekers allowances to our low skilled. When you distort the market place in this way, its no surprise the very low paid cant or wont work for a pittance.

          • OmnipotentWizard

            “…if the government provided proper job training…” You don’t need much training to pick vegetables. And why should the Government pay for this anyway leading to higher taxes.

            “…leading to reasonable salaries…” Leading to higher prices.

            “The problem is wages are deliberately held down by government,…” Your understand of our Capitalist Democracy is lamentable. Listen very carefully, I will say this only once – Governments don’t dictate wage levels.

          • WTF

            Having a skilled work force at various levels is beneficial to a country, just look at all the non oil producing Islamic states if you want a country thats a cess pit !

            Listen very carefully, I will only say this once –

            “Governments put in place policies that can shape wage levels” Hint “Immigration from low wage countries” F****** moron !

          • OmnipotentWizard

            “Having a skilled work force at various levels is beneficial to a country,…” And we already do. That is why we have become the World fifth largest economy (in spite of only being 1% of the World’s population) and are predicted to overtake Germany withing a couple of decades. It ain’t broke so don’t try to fix it.

            “…just look at all the non oil producing Islamic states…”…who are similar to all the non oil producing non Islamic states.

            As wages are now above per-recession levels and employment is at an all time high then obviously immigration is not too high:
            “Unemployment has fallen by more than 100,000 to its lowest level in over seven years, new figures have shown….The employment rate has reached 73.7%, the highest since comparable records began in 1971. (Yahoo 11/11/2015)

            AND

            “Wages are now rising at a stronger pace than inflation for the first time since 2009, easing the squeeze on household budgets. Bank of England Governor Mark Carney said …Real incomes will be further supported by lower energy, food and other import prices. Oil prices are now 20% lower than a year ago and food price inflation is at a 12-year low.” (Yahoo 12/11/2014)

          • WTF

            I think you just proved my point tp paraphrase you –

            “”Having a skilled work force at various levels is beneficial to a
            country,…” And we already do. That is why we have become the World
            fifth largest economy…..”

            I guess its the skilled work force that has helped the UK not cheap unskilled immigrant labour.

            A very strange piece of convoluted logic to say “As wages are now above per-recession levels and employment is at an all time high then obviously immigration is not too high”. Not sure any economist would agree with that statement.

          • OmnipotentWizard

            All sections of the labour force have helped the UK – what a snob you are to disrespect a whole section of society in this way.

            “Not sure any economist would agree with that statement.” Then find one. And don’t be lazy and just produce ten URLs – produce the actual quote.

          • OmnipotentWizard

            All sections of the labour force have helped the UK – what a snob you are to disrespect a whole section of society in this way.

            “Not sure any economist would agree with that statement.” Then find one. And don’t be lazy and just produce ten URLs – produce the actual quote.

          • WTF

            Here’s some help for you on how to substantiate your vacuous claims, follow these guidelines and your posts will have substance instead of personal fluff.

            Note the use of a valid URL that leads you straight to the point and doesn’t go all around the houses !

            https://writing.wisc.edu/Handbook/thesis_composedraft.html

            Good luck, and I’ll answer your previous points when they have some meat on them.

          • OmnipotentWizard

            “Good luck, and I’ll answer your previous points when they have some meat on them.” This is possibly the most creative (and pathetic) attempt I ever seen at avoiding a discussion when faced with concrete facts that you don’t like.

            Man Up! Stop avoiding my argument just because you find them too difficult.

          • WTF

            There’s nothing of merit to discuss if you can’t provide current information that anyone here can look at via a URL link.

            Here’s how they work –

            http://computer.howstuffworks.com/internet/basics/internet-infrastructure7.htm

            Here’s what you do –

            http://netforbeginners.about.com/cs/browsing/a/bl_url_anatomy.htm

            When you’ve learned it, I’ll mark you on your skill level for using URL’s !

          • OmnipotentWizard

            Wizard Rule 23: If you put your fingers in your ears and hum loudly enough you’ll never hear anything to challenge your prejudices.

          • WTF

            Its inadequate people like you that have the problem pretending to be some wizard when in fact you’re just a sad individual who doesn’t know how to write a thesis or research on-line.

      • WTF

        The argument is called supply and demand. In any field of work the amount paid is predominantly determined by the supply of work force available for the specific job position. When the job market is a level playing field and there is a shortage of one skill or type of work, wages will rise, this will attract workers to get trained in that skill until the vacancies are filled and wages will then flatten out.

        That’s the normal order of events but government F**** it up as usual.

        For example, Blair promoted thousands of university places as a program to get everyone a degree even if it was a degree in the bleeding obvious. We all know what happened, thousands of young people got a degree and couldn’t get a job. Then Blair persuaded many to become doctors, 5-8 years later, there’s a glut in trainee doctors and they’re still looking for a job. At the other end of the skill level its the same thing, suppress wages, can’t get the UK staff and steal from abroad to keep NHS costs down.

        What governments refuse to understand is that natural forces ALWAYS work better and balance out quicker than any social engineering experiment they impose on the country. You fix the problems of home grown unemployment not by flooding the UK work force from other countries labor force but by letting market forces prevail.

        • OmnipotentWizard

          You were actually doing not too badly until you got to the final paragraph. Natural forces are working now. There is no “social engineering experiment”.

          “…home grown unemployment…” is only fixed by growing the economy and suppressing immigration acts as a break on that. Out current policy has led to:
          “Unemployment has fallen by more than 100,000 to its lowest level in over seven years, new figures have shown….The employment rate has reached 73.7%, the highest since comparable records began in 1971. (Yahoo 11/11/2015)

          • WTF

            Do try and use your limp wand to post URL’s as I’m not going to do your work for you.

          • OmnipotentWizard

            More insults – why do you feel so insecure in what you say?

            I don’t keep URL’s but a quick search gives you this article:

            https://uk.finance.yahoo.com/news/uk-unemployment-rate-falls-wages-093458467.html

            It probably isn’t where I cut the quote from but it contains the same information.

            Once you’ve crawled through that to try to find a counter-argument try to avoid insults in your comeback.

          • WTF

            I feel very secure in what I post as most of the time I google the latest information from a reliable source and back up my assertions. You on the other hand rarely post a link unless pressured to do so and even then its out of date. I think you are the real one with insecurities !

          • OmnipotentWizard

            But much more importantly what do you think of your crumbling assertions now?

          • WTF

            As I said, my assertions stand, yours are out of date.

          • OmnipotentWizard

            So you crawled through the article and now can’t find a counter-argument.

            Looks like game, set and match to Wizard.

          • WTF

            What part of out of date don’t you understand ?

          • OmnipotentWizard

            November 2015 is out of date?

            At lease try to be a bit more creative in discrediting the evidence I’ve presented to you.

          • WTF

            Article on BBC is Dated April 2014, stats are from 2014. Where’s Nov 2015 ?

            http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-32403291

          • OmnipotentWizard

            Where’s Nov 2015 ?

            At the top and just under the title. The reports are published after the event (publishing before would be difficult).

            Every report from Cardiff over the last number of years (might be eight years but I can’t remember) has shown the same trend. To think the next report might say something different is really stretching credibility. Maybe you like to do that?

            Wizard Rule 80: There are none so blind as those who don’t want to see.

          • WTF

            I think you’ve lost yourself on the internet as I’m looking at the BBC article from the only URL link that YOU have posted that actually works and there’s no November 2015 under the title. What site are you on as it certainly isn’t the BBC site you posted before.

            This might help you do a redirect to the article you are referring to. I suggest you stop f****** about with your wand and read up on how the internet works as you’re obviously severely challenged in this area.

            http://knowledge.hubspot.com/website-user-guide/how-to-use-the-url-mapping-tool-to-redirect-pages

            https://blog.bufferapp.com/url-shorteners

            Alternatively, there might be something here in Harry Potter spells that could help you find the right website & URL

            http://harrypotter.wikia.com/wiki/List_of_spells

    • Jackthesmilingblack

      And clearly Border Force (BF) is doing a pretty sloppy job, keeping the right people out while letting the wrong people in. While the chief executive of BF is changed like it’s musical chairs. Linguistic issues mean it’s impossible to recruit indigenous Brits with the requisite language skills to cope with the range of nationalities an languages. So there is the situation of Muslim Immigration officers deciding the suitability of Muslim applicants. Can you imagine any other country where that would be acceptable? Because I can’t.
      Jack, the Japan Alps Brit

  • Tickertapeguy

    Do not get this article of migrants mixed up with the massive tsunami of Muslim asylum seekers. A good deal of them lack any skills and immediately go for public support while hating the European culture.

    In the US we used to have temporary migrants who would come in and do a certain job for a certain amount of time and leave. We also have legal Immigration of migrants who come to the US and assimilate to our culture. that is what this article is referring and not the “massive Muslim invasion” that has resulted in bombings in Paris and Brussels

  • AdrianM

    Enlist our own work-shy and feckless into a quasi-military ‘academy’ army, then task them to do whatever is necessary in our society. This will achieve two things, self reliance, and a sense of purpose. Immigrants are entirely unnecessary to this end and are turning this country into a shabby, lawless shambles. Stop it now.

    • OmnipotentWizard

      You did know violent crime is at an all time low?

      • AdrianM

        Did I mention violence?

        • OmnipotentWizard

          Almost all classes of crime are at an all time low – so not a “lawless shambles” then.

          • Jackthesmilingblack

            Make that reported crime.

          • OmnipotentWizard

            It would be useful if we had an independent source that didn’t rely on crime reporting. Wait a minute….in the case of violent crime we have in the figures from A&E departments..

            “Violent crime is continuing a long-term fall in England and Wales, according to annual figures from NHS hospitals. There was a 12% fall in injuries from violent incidents in 2013, according to data from almost a third of emergency departments examined by Cardiff University….They also said the figures mirrored other research, adding to evidence that the long-term trend in violent crime was down. The 12% fall means it is the fifth consecutive year that NHS units have recorded a decrease in violent injuries.” (BBC Online News 23/04/2014)

          • WTF

            Old news, 2014, try reading current news and a completely different picture appears. You do know its 2016 now I assume and crime is way up !

            http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/12112024/Violent-crime-jumps-27-in-new-figures.html

          • OmnipotentWizard

            That is reported crime WTF. Only by looking at the NHS data can you get the true story on violent crime.

            “Look also at Cardiff University’s latest study of people attending A&E units due to violent injuries – down 10% year-on-year…..And look at the well-respected Crime Survey for England and Wales….Crime is down, even though the police are recording more offences.” (BBC News Online 23/04/2015)

          • WTF

            Can’t your limp wand post actual URL’s ?

          • OmnipotentWizard

            In spite of the insult (Insults are the last refuge of people losing an argument) I’ll give you the link I did keep to the previous years study (this is a rolling study by Cardiff).

            http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-27119689

            If you are petty enough to suggest that the 2015 study won’t show a continuing trend then I guess I’ll have to go and look for it. Of of course you could…

          • WTF

            Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear, The BBC report was for 2013 does indeed show a fall but try looking at official government figures like the ONS where for the year leading up to June 2015 its showed a rise. There was an overall rise of 5% in all recorded crime and an astounding 25% increase in violent crime.
            Not very good at collecting up to date facts are we ?

            http://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/crimeandjustice/bulletins/crimeinenglandandwales/2015-10-15

          • OmnipotentWizard

            What didn’t you understand about the difference between reported crime and actual crime. The BBC article even explained it for you.

            Not very good at understanding concepts are we ?

          • OmnipotentWizard

            What didn’t you understand about the difference between reported crime and actual crime. The BBC article even explained it for you.

            Not very good at understanding concepts are we ?

          • WTF

            Nice try again but that was 2013, try and keep up its 2016 now !

          • OmnipotentWizard

            So you didn’t understand the difference between report crime and actual crime? It was even explained in the article. Here is the report released at the beginning of 2015: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-32403291
            The 2016 report will be available shortly.

            With the amount of wriggling you are doing there must be real risk of your pants catching fire.

          • WTF

            A day late and a dollar short, ITS OLD NEWS, CIRCA 2013-14, don’t you get it. I posted figures for the year up to June 2015 from the ONS. Now p*** off and find the latest stats if you want to dispute the government figures I have supplied.

          • OmnipotentWizard

            The ONS publish reported crime and the Cardiff study looks at actual crime – why is that so difficult for you to understand?

            I do not dispute the Government figure – they record reported crime and don’t pretend to do anything more.

            Now stop being rude just because you don’t like your prejudices challenged.

          • WTF

            Still old news but how do you define actual crime, I’d argue that crime is in the eye of the beholder not whether the CPS or plod state its a crime.

            That guy Mathew Doyle was vexatiously arrested by plod last week for a ‘crime’ of asking an innocent question and had his home trashed & his computers grabbed by plod. He has now been told that Plod should not have arrested him for a ‘CRIME’ and he’s rightly looking to sue the pigs that did this to him. Well that one crime stat down or is it ?

          • OmnipotentWizard

            “…I’d argue that crime is in the eye of the beholder…” Not with the A&E data – it is in the judgement of the doctor.

            “Mathew Doyle was vexatiously arrested by plod last week for a ‘crime’ of asking an innocent question…” You did realise that was not a violent crime and didn’t require anyone to go to A&E. Did you actually read what I posted?

          • WTF

            Yes I did read what you posted and like all conflaters of lies you changed the goal posts in the same sentence. I quote from your post –

            “Look also at Cardiff University’s latest study of people attending
            A&E units due to violent injuries – down 10% year-on-year…..And
            look at the well-respected Crime Survey for England and Wales….Crime
            is down, even though the police are recording more offences.” (BBC News
            Online 23/04/2015)”

            1st Part – a study statement from Cardiff Uni about reported violent injuries.

            (a) Its unsubstantiated by any written reference for verification let alone having a URL to check it out.

            (b) Violent injuries, all serious injuries are caused by violent events but not all violent events are criminal.

            2nd Part – Crime is down, even though the police are recording more offences.” (BBC News Online 23/04/2015)”

            (a) Crime is down which most people would read as general crime not specifically violent crime. If you want to argue a specific point you better make your claim specific rather than changing goal posts from general crime to violent crime.

            (b) The BBC report was old news of 2013-2014 not 2015. No where does it say November 2015 so you’re either fantasizing it, smoking weed or playing with your wand too much.

            BTW – What is this “the well-respected Crime Survey for England and Wales”, the BBC article, your assertions, Cardiff Uni or something else. Again and again, your complete lack of relevant URL’s just shows how sloppy your ‘research’ is.

          • OmnipotentWizard

            You do really go the extreme length to try to avoid anything that goes against your prejudices. First you tried the ignore that facts by criticising my ability to post a URL, then you try to avoid the facts by not following a few simply step that would allow you to access them, then you critise that date on the article, then when I give you the latest article you don’t like that (and you can’t even find the date at the top of the page), then when you finally can’t avoid it any more you actually have to face what is being said.

            Then you dispute the conclusion of the authors – who have seen all the facts of the peer reviewed study.

            You pants must be well alight by now.

          • WTF

            Just give me the same courtesy as I give you by posting URLs for your assertions. Your lack of URLs is not so much a criticism but a fact of life that your either don’t know how to post one or you refuse to post one and we can all guess the motives why. You refuse to embrace the Internets search functions and the fact that the whole point of a URL is it is a short cut to the article or facts one is looking for. You’re the one avoiding this even though your wand might help you !!!!

            “Then you dispute the conclusion of the authors – who have seen all the facts of the peer reviewed study.”

            This statement clearly labels you as one of many ‘sheeple’ who accept what others say without doing a peer review yourself. Unlike you, I don’t rely on conclusions by others, I wish to reach my own conclusions from raw data. I want to do a peer review of the claims you make but you keep resisting every effort to provide a quick access to this information. The only rationale conclusion is, there is either no raw data to do a peer review and reach an independent conclusion or that data is ‘inconvenient’ in its nature otherwise you would have provided links long ago.

            This reminds me of the climate change debate where the ‘tree huggers’ at East Anglia Uni refused to release all the raw data so that a genuine peer review could be carried out over global warming as it was then called. Once it was leaked, it was obvious the conclusion was no substantiated in the way some were portraying it and this has the same smell of BS surrounding it.

            Here’s another example of peer review that was flawed

            http://science.howstuffworks.com/innovation/scientific-experiments/scientific-peer-review.htm

            Pity no one can ‘peer review’ your ‘thesis’ so what have you got to hide ?

          • WTF

            Just supply proper links and you might be vindicated or perhaps you might be proved wrong, what are you scared of ?

          • WTF
  • Captain Dryland

    “The underlying attitude is at least as important as the training, and the fact is that the young French, as the young British, do not have the right attitude” moans Mr Dalrymple. Then, of himself he says: “Speaking personally, I am not cut out to be a full-time carer, nor do I have any ambitions in that direction.”
    Sounds like a double standard to me.

    • Andy JS

      Sounds like honesty to me.

  • OmnipotentWizard

    I’ll review the comments on here and let you know if there are a lot of knee-jerk responses from the anti-Immigration lobby. I’ll get back to you shortly.

    • Prof. L. Wessell

      Since I am1/64th native American and since that is sufficient for a US court to remove a child with the same percentage of native Indian genes from a white foster family of 4 years in order to return the child to her kind, I shall speak as an American Indian. (What the heck, Senator E. Warrren claimed to possess 1/32 Indian blood and Harvard Uni. so classified her as proof of professorial diversity). So I, repesenting the pre-European inhabitants of the not yet called America (and then at that after an Italian immigrant!), find it justified to note that at times the immigrants take one’s damn land and culture from one. I recall that the territory now called Turkey was once 100% Christian and today less than 1/10 of 1.00% remain — How is that for immigration replacement? The replacement took centuries, but the Eastern Roman inhabitants were pushed out or absorbed into the culture of “immigrants” of a sort. So please be careful about jerking your knee as you might find it in your mouth,

    • WTF

      I’ll save you some time from finding your limp wand –

      True progressive liberals (PLs) would welcome a massive cut back of immigrants to help conserve the UK’s natural resources, reduce energy consumption & pollution and ensure adequate food supplies for the country. It would even help our trade imbalance. It would assist our own out of work citizens first and foremost as by offering skill training to them & better paying jobs and it would save taxpayer money from benefits. Additional by stealing nurses and other semi-skilled professionals from third world countries, its a fiscal version of colonial rule and morally wrong. I’m surprised the PL’s haven’t picked up on this one but I guess they benefit most from cheap imported labour.

      I’m certain all right minded people can see, reducing immigration will help save the planet, protect third world countries, save on energy & food requirements and reduce pollution. Oh, and save money as well as a bonus. Its a win-win all the way !

      I doubt the PL’s will support this policy though as its too rationale and they never thought of it first !

      • OmnipotentWizard

        What is a “True progressive liberal”? I know it must be someone who “would welcome a massive cut back of immigrants”.

        So you invent an imaginary classification of people to support your prejudices. Let me see if I can do it:

        “True rational patriots (RPs) would not be fooled by the exaggerated claims about immigration from UKIP.”

        How well did I do?

        • WTF

          So you don’t agree with saving the planet, helping to retrain people to find a job and find it appealing to steal skilled staff from third world countries leaving their under developed countries without adequate health care workers. What a nasty piece of work you are !

          • OmnipotentWizard

            Now you are trying to put words into my mouth that I didn’t say just so you can criticise me for (not) saying them.

            Immigration has nothing to do with saving the planet. The third-world is rapidly disappearing as they get richer helped by the increasing freedom of movement between countries:

            “A smaller proportion of people now live in extreme poverty than ever before in human history and the United Nations has set a target of eradicating it altogether within a few decades.” (Professor Hans Rosling)

            Health improvements in developing countries have meant that infant mortality and longevity are now approaching European levels in most countries. The population explosion is almost over.

            “The average number of viable children per woman is now about two globally. This means that all future population growth is now a result of increased longevity. (Gapminder Foundation)

            Immigration into the UK has certainly not stopped the recent vast improvements in the lot of most third-world countries.

          • WTF

            Predictably you have neither supplied links substantiating your assertions nor addressed the points I raised and instead ignored obvious truths.

            If the population of the UK remains static rather than growing continually because of immigration its frigging obvious we wont add more pollution to the world through local energy emissions, transporting food to the UK or increased manufacturing in countries like China. Do you live in a wizards fantasy where a population of 70 million cause no more pollution than say 60 million, I despair with your simple maths.

            As for third world poverty, there is no evidence that it is rapidly disappearing, where the f*** do you get dumb ideas like that. Try World Health Organization for some real facts.

            http://www.who.int/heli/risks/ehindevcoun/en/

            As for birth rates, it varies enormously across the globe from 8 per 1000 in 2015 for Japan to to the 30’s and 40’s per 1000 in Africa and Islamic states. The actual world population is growing at over 1% per year currently and considering millions die from starvation or lack of adequate health care, one can hardly say we don’t have a population problem. In fact there are still twice as many birth each day than deaths.

            http://www.worldometers.info/world-population/

            You really should try harder researching your facts better or get a better ‘wand’ !

          • OmnipotentWizard

            “Predictably you have neither supplied links substantiating your assertions…” Gapminder is easy to find (http://www.gapminder.org/) and there are two videos on their site you need to watch. One called Don’t Panic — End Poverty and the other called Don’t Panic – The Facts About Population. It shows just how 1980s peoples thinking still is and then tells you where we are going for the rest of this century.

            “If the population of the UK remains static rather than growing continually…” The future is largely locked in for both the UK and the World. The World population will peak at 11billion in about 2090 before decreasing (the UN estimates 10.5 billion) before slowly decreasing. This is because the World reached a point known as “peak child” in the year 2000 where the number of children in the World (0 – 16) stopped increasing at 2 billion. The UK is predicted to mirror this but peak a little earlier a 75million and the current level of immigration will have little impact on that – it is both uncomfortable and inevitable.

            “The average number of viable children per woman is now about two globally. This means that all future population growth is now a result of increased longevity.” (Gapminder Foundation)

            “Across the world, even in countries like Bangladesh, families of just two children are now the norm – meaning that within a few generations, the population explosion will be over.” (Professor Hans Rosling)

            “…transporting food to the UK or increased manufacturing in countries like China.” Global emissions have fallen for the first time and transporting food makes it (a) cheaper for us, and (b) good for emerging economies. This is known as a win-win situation.

            “As for third world poverty, there is no evidence that it is rapidly disappearing,…” More 1980s thinking. The Gapminder video will show you why you are wrong. From the UN website at September 2015 (I’m sure you can find that URL):

            UN Website at September 2015:
            1. The target of reducing extreme poverty rates by half was met five years ahead of the 2015 deadline.
            2. More than 1 billion people have been lifted out of extreme poverty since 1990.
            3. In 1990, nearly half of the population in the developing regions lived on less than $1.25 a day. This rate dropped to 14 per cent in 2015.
            4. At the global level more than 800 million people are still living in extreme poverty.

            The UN’s Millennium Goal is to finish the job. Our foreign aid helps a lots.

            “As for birth rates, it varies enormously across the globe…” Of course it does but the correlation between wealth and birth rate well established and as you have seen poverty is rapidly being beaten.

            “…30’s and 40’s per 1000 in Africa and Islamic states.” Birth rate has nothing to do with religion or continent. There is another video on the Gapminder site which compares birth rate by religion – watch if you dare.

            “In fact there are still twice as many birth each day than deaths.” That is because of longevity and not birth rate. We have reached “peak child” (in 2000) and so population growth stops when the people born in 2000 die. This is now locked in and nothing we do will change it.

            “You really should try harder researching your facts…” Watch the videos and then come back an apologise.

          • JabbaPapa

            Few people understand this sort of thing.

            The same is observable in animal populations in the wild.

          • WTF

            Let me help you out here as I can now see why you’ve been reluctant in the past to post URLs, you don’t really know how to do it properly.

            Firstly the URL you posted above failed to work. This was due to the fact you included the parenthesis at the end as part of the link and web search engines failed to find it as the format was incorrect. As I’m somewhat of an expert in this field I took you on face value that you did post a real URL but made a typo and bingo, after removing the parenthesis I finally reached that site.

            The problem still remains in that instead of you providing a direct URL link to the actual specific data for assertions you posted, its like looking for a needle in a haystack to find data that backs your assertion. The whole purpose of a URL is to take the person browsing directly to the page of a web site and not just the portal, I assume you understand that but perhaps you don’t. It also occurs to me that despite never having been to Uni myself, its my understanding that when you make a thesis, you provide specific references to back up your thesis. Unfortunately you haven’t provided any direct references for ANY assertion you made.

            For example, after some exhaustive searching on this web site I found estimated population numbers for the world and specific countries at

            http://esa.un.org/unpd/wpp/Download/Standard/Population/

            If any one else is interested, all they have to do is click on that link and the spreadsheets are clearly visible. That URL will take anyone directly to the source data, get it !

            Whilst you have taken the time to come up with all of your assertions then you clearly had the URL links for those assertions but where are they ? I’m not prepared to waste my time hunting a very large web site just because you are too lazy or incompetent to post the target URLs when you make your claims.

            All I can say is that everything you have posted above is still unsubstantiated at present.

          • OmnipotentWizard

            Thank you very much for your critique of my ability to post a URL – it was most useful. Your description of how clever you are was also informative.

            “I’m not prepared to waste my time hunting a very large web site…” There is a link to there video list on their home page. What are you so scared of?

            Here is a step by step guide:
            type http://www.gapminder.org into your browser
            scroll to the bottom of the page
            select the “all videos” link
            select the video called “Don’t Panic — End Poverty”
            sit back and enjoy
            select the video called “Don’t Panic – The Facts About Population”
            sit back and enjoy
            (if you can stand it) select the video called “Religion and babies”
            sit back and enjoy

            I’m sure with someone as clever as you you can find the quote on the UN website.

            Now – WHAT ARE YOU SCARED OF?

          • WTF

            Just post the URL’s that link specifically to your claims just as I do for you, then I’ll look at them. I’m not doing your work for you just because you don’t know how to link specific URL’s to a specific point. I’m not sitting back to watch a 1 hour video in the vain hope there’s some verifiable documented fact that are no different to your posts. I want spreadsheets, facts and figures that I can dissect from reputable sources like the ONS not vague assertions like yours.

            As I posted before – Try reading this to help you in your quest.

            https://writing.wisc.edu/Handbook/thesis_composedraft.html

          • OmnipotentWizard

            Typing a problem for you is it? Or are you just unable to follow a few instructions? Oh well try these:

            http://www.gapminder.org/videos/dont-panic-end-poverty/

            http://www.gapminder.org/videos/dont-panic-the-facts-about-population/

          • WTF

            That’s a URL to a video, not stats that back your assertions. Fail again !

          • OmnipotentWizard

            Just why are you so scared? The stats are in the video along with many more. The quotes I gave are probably on the website somewhere. There are lots of nice graphs and the presenter is very amusing. Watch the population one first and that will explain why the World population was largely static up to 1800 and then the steps that got us from a World population of 1billion in 1800 to 7billion now and the steps that will get us to 11billion by the end of the century.

            It will explain the reasons behind the drop in birth rates in most third-world countries (and one is a bit counter-intuitive).

            It will explain where the growth will take place – not to spoil it for you too much it will be 75% in Africa.

          • WTF

            Scared, I’m thoroughly enjoying myself at your pathetic attempt to prove yourself without any hard facts.

            I could just as easily tell you to p*** off to the ONS at

            Segensworth Road
            Titchfield
            Fareham
            Hampshire
            PO15 5RR

            and if you knock on the door you’ll find information backing up my assertions. Unlike you, I save you the time and effort by providing a URL that gets you straight to that information. Why do you have such a problem with reciprocating or is it that you’re the one who is really scared of hard facts can easily trash your assertions. You’re refusal to meet me half way says it all really !

  • CC

    …no doubt many immigrants help…but a number also prey on the elderly in nursing homes..taking things from patients. My mother’s friends in Massachusetts are always ‘losing’ things to their Jamaican assistants : (

  • enoch arden

    The article is thoroughly idiotic. The modern economies cannot provide full employment. The unemployment in EU is measured by double digits. There is absolutely no conceivable reason to import unqualified labour when governments spend billions on unemployment benefits. If someone have problems to comprehend this point in an abstract form, here is a real example of an advanced industrial society that lives comfortably without any immigrants: Japan.

    The economic reality is very simple: it is bad for the economy to employ cheap foreign labour.

    • Jackthesmilingblack

      Sand now

    • James

      The mistake people make is trying to pay everyone more when the economic solution is to make everything cost less. Why is it that socialists always demand higher pay but never notice that higher pay means higher prices and higher costs and less prosperity? Think about this: Guys like Andrew Carnegie and Henry Ford provided prosperity for the poor by collapsing the cost of steel and autos, not by paying their workers higher wages. It was NOT NOT NOT the $5.00 per day wage paid by Henry Ford that helped the poor of the world, it was the $1,000.00 Model being reduced in price to $250.00 that made the lives of every poor person that much better. Maybe it is not the article that is so idiotic? I agree the article is simplistic, and not taking into account the massive conspiracy to destroy Western Civilization by destroying the people who live in it, but in the sense that regular people must participate in providing solutions, I agree with it.

      • enoch arden

        This is rubbish. Henry Ford payed his workers very well. His principle was: his worker must be able to buy a car and a house. Do you suggest Ford was a socialist? He just understood simple arithmetics: in order to be able to buy his cars people must get enough money. That way the US became the largest economy of the world.

        • James

          Let me also point out that Henry Ford paid his workers enough that they might have been able to purchase a Cadillac or a Stutz-Bearcat, and not have to settle for a measly cheep Ford Model T.

    • Jackthesmilingblack

      A little basic research (foreigners in Japan, Brits in Japan) will expose this opinion as a totally inaccurate generalization.
      Jack, the Japan Alps Brit. Resident in Japan since 1973
      Cheap foreign Łabour? Held here by golden chains.

  • John Andrews

    Good diagnosis; bad treatment. We should change our education and welfare systems so that UK-born citizens are willing to do what Frank Field says are known to school-leavers as ‘immigrant jobs’.

  • Jackthesmilingblack

    Essentially nobody really knows accurately how many Brits are resident abroad. First you need to define terms; just what does “resident abroad/expat” really mean? Figures of five million are bandied about, but I suggest this is a total underestimate. Registered with the Embassy, collecting NI pension? Hardly the full picture. And what about returnees?
    Think we have to assume a good 10 million.
    I suggest that largely it’s the brightest and best, most adventurous, most creative that fly the UK coop to seek their fortune in the colonies. Which helps to explain why the stay behinds seem so drab, dull and narrow-minded. And more importantly, ripe for an immigrant take over.
    Two factors contribute to the emigration decision, push and pull. Push is easy to understand as you find yourself pushed to the periphery of British society.
    Pull only becomes clear when you take the plunge, and often a pleasant surprise. Because you don’t grasp just how much Britain sucks until you make the comparison with another culture. So HMG, if you are concerned by the on-going talent drain, try to make Britain more attractive for Brits.
    And one final tip for single Brits contemplating flying the coop, get into character as an English gentleman and combine emigration with new spouse acquisition.
    Jack, the Japan Alps Brit

    • JohnJ

      Yes Dubai is an interesting example. They hire plenty of Brits, give them 50% more than they get in UK and no tax. So UK teaches and trains skilled “assets”. Then the moment they are of use and can create value,they go to Dubai. For 20 or 30 years they work there and when they can’t work anymore they are turfed out. Yep it’s back to Britain or a nice home in Portugal or a complete village Bulgaria. Dubai does not have to pay for their retirement, their medical or even funeral expenses. And UK is left with…….. well whatever is left. Note: NONE of them become citizens. Those Al Falasis are smart.

  • Watt

    Why Britain (and Europe) depends on migrants

    As this article demonstrates, the middle class despises the indigenous hoi poloi and prefers not be served by it. Being served by migrants however provides an opportunity for middle class virtue signalling.

    • David Beard

      Yeah, ‘our snobby , slobby culture’. Speak for yourself mate.

    • WTF

      What is middle class ? Please define.

      • Disqus Bolloqus

        Never mind that! What is virtue signalling?

      • David Beard

        Someone in a professional job: teaching, law, medicine etc (degree holder).. Earning above say – seventy five grand a year. One or two cars, own house in a nice residential area ( and other assets)…. But I know a few ‘unskilled’ people who have all this and more and yet with not a qualification to their name.

  • Bob

    It is a pity most comments concentrate on ‘Migrants’; the main assertion is some important jobs lack kudos and such jobs are not filled by people who have been through our current educational system.
    Many years ago a young teacher told me of a colleague who said to a mother “Your child is lazy; if he doesn’t make an effort at school he will end up a street sweeper.” The mother replied “His father is a street sweeper”.
    Ten Macmillan nurses cared for my mother’s at night during her last fortnight; they did the most important job I know of (and they did it well). That was in the north of Scotland and none of the nurses were immigrants but then again none were young. Would they be immigrants today in the south of Britain?
    Our teachers need to learn what is a ‘good job’ so more school leavers enter the caring professions and fewer aim for government office jobs. And rather obviously kudos and salary are connected.

    • David Beard

      tny years ago a young teacher told me of a colleague who said to a mother “Your child is lazy; if he doesn’t make an effort at school he will end up a street sweeper.” The mother replied “His father is a street sweeper”.

      Shows how snobby some of these so called teachers really are. Postmen and dustmen have written novels before now .Taxi drivers and the like have won Mastermind. And some of the most heroic of people and their deeds of bravery have come from the stocks of the working classes.

    • Harryagain

      Teachers have become the scum of the earth.

      • Mary Ann

        Don’t be daft.

        • Harryagain

          They have never been out of school.
          Ergo they know nothing. = Living in Lala Land inn a closed community that comes up with stupid ideas on all topics.

  • Chennai07

    Europe is Falling in 50 years it will be a totally muslim society with every empty cathedral and church demolished and a shining full mosque in there place, and your money will pay for it!

    • WTF

      Until it becomes like all other Islamic states without oil. Most non Muslim African states are better developed and have more natural resources to feed their people than ANY non oil producing Islamic state I can think of. Any money Europe pays to make an Islamic Europe wont last long and then it will be no different than most other Islamic states. It will be a race to the bottom.

    • alpha_centauri

      I would not be surprised if this happens. We need someone like Charles Martel for the 21st Century, or a leader who is the complete opposite of Merkel and who deports Muslims.

    • Mary Ann

      Scaremongerer. You cannot seriously believe that.

  • uberwest

    It may have been possible, at one point in time, to buy a house on the wages paid to carers and other semi-skilled workers. Today it is not. Immigration has driven house prices up, and wages down. These factors preclude caring and hospitality work as sensible career choices for most people, because there is no future in it.

    • Mary Ann

      I doubt that carers could afford to buy houses from the money they made, they used to live in council houses before Maggie sold them off and created a problem.

      • Matt

        But mass immigration is hardly helping is it. Many people can not afford to buy a house today when in a previous generation they would just have been able to do it.

  • Maureen Fisher

    I think Theodore will find that in areas of the country like Cornwall, it’s the locals who are doing the low paid work like waitressing and hotel duties and not migrants.

    • Sue Smith

      Let’s be clear; immigrants want to live in the big cities they’ve seen on TV or at the movies – not in some remote backwater, which is how they’d regard anything outside of the very biggest cities. In Australia they all gravitate towards Sydney and Melbourne when we have vast rural towns literally dying because young people are leaving in droves. Where is the economic model for immigrants boosting the population and providing growth? It’s a complete chimera. They want the good life in the cities and anybody who fails to see that either knows nothing at all or has a crypto Marxist social agenda.

  • Dennis Hopkins

    I worked in dementia care for 6 years, in London. The vast majority of the staff was british. Don’t dress up the same nonsense argument of lazy natives in new clothes. If we started respecting these positions and stopped agreeing that people don’t want to do them maybe we could diffuse a generation that does not want to.

  • KilowattTyler

    Dalrymple’s article is simply a rehash of the old chestnut “We need immigrants to do the jobs that British people don’t want to do”. This ‘argument’ is lumpen, economically illiterate tripe. It views the economy as a household where certain simple tasks have to be done, e.g. cleaning the bathroom.

    A real economy does not have a set of fixed tasks to be carried out. Jobs exist,are created, and destroyed as a function of supply and demand. Nasty jobs, if the supply of labour is limited, will either pay more to attract recruits or be eliminated by automation or some other form of substitution, or more likely, some combination of these.

    The folly of attempting to use immigration to solve labour ‘shortages’ can be seen all over Europe. In Britain, instead of letting the textile industry in north-west England go out of existence in the 1950s and 1960s we imported labour to work in the dark, satanic mills. The textile industry disintegrated anyway, but the people and their descendants remain as a poor and embittered underclass.

    Business, especially big business, will always try to con governments and other ‘leaders’ into providing cheap labour. The response of government should always be to tell business to get stuffed. If the price of labour is too high for your business to function, you need to innovate,relocate, or get in to some other type of business. This is called ‘the market’.

    Those who think that we need to import lots of unskilled labour should bear in mind that some forecasts predict that 15 million jobs will be eliminated by automation over the next 20 years. For this reason alone, we really do not want to import anything other than small numbers of highly skilled people.

    • Disqus Bolloqus

      The movement of people to fill jobs is simply the operation of the market. Tebbit’s get on your bike in action. Creation of barriers to movement of people is creating protected markets. If you advocate that you must be a socialist.

      • KilowattTyler

        Actually ‘protectionism’ is not practised exclusively by socialist regimes and if anything, a totally deregulated immigration system is something promoted with vigour by those on the left of the political spectrum.
        There is no such thing as a totally free market as ‘the market’ is always an artificial construction. A market can only exist in a framework of laws and customs set outside market forces. If there is no effective legal and societal framework ‘business’ quickly becomes crime (as it did in Yeltsin’s Russia, for example).

        • Sue Smith

          Spot on!!

        • Disqus Bolloqus

          Kilowatt, I agree, the concept of a free market is a nonsense unless you’re advocating anarchy. My point was tongue in cheek. The ‘free’ market is not free at all, it is a rigged market where the rules are written by the those who enjoy power.

    • LoveMeIamALiberal

      But Dalrymple isn’t making an economic argument; as he states it’s cultural. We need immigrants because our society has attached a stigma to certain manual occupations which is unjustified. We are victims of our own snobbery. Although Dalrymple doesn’t say so, it need not be this way.

      • KilowattTyler

        You are simply restating ‘the old chestnut’ in a form that appeals to those with sociology degrees.

        • LoveMeIamALiberal

          which is Dalrymple’s argument. By treating it as an economic argument, you are not addressing it. Sneering at sociology degrees sounds like another form of snobbery.

          • KilowattTyler

            You fail to see that a willingness, or otherwise, to do a particular job is a function of supply and demand. There is no fundamental, qualitative barrier to do any job. If the price is right, someone will do it. This applies to models, morticians, sewer operatives, drug dealers, actors, bankers, and hitmen (to use random but valid examples:

          • LoveMeIamALiberal

            I see it, but it’s not everything. Cultural factors play a part is determining the willingness to do certain jobs, which Dalrymple’s point.

      • Sue Smith

        This is not what he’s saying; he’s using a ‘argument’ to make veiled comments about UK racism.

        • LoveMeIamALiberal

          Don’t see it. What’s the ‘argument’? And what are the ‘veiled comments about racism’?

          • Sue Smith

            “Snobbish” culture? You obviously don’t think snobbishness has anything to do with racism!! And the very article which suggests that immigrants do all the lowly jobs is inherently racist itself anyway.

    • Sue Smith

      Well argued, intelligent and right on the money!! Time to debunk the ‘they do jobs we don’t do” chestnut once and for all.

  • WTF

    A weak disingenuous article that tries to spin our need for immigrants from third world countries which open our doors for easy access to terrorists. Here’s 5 points that perhaps Theodore Dalrymple could ponder on and reply to.

    1/ True progressive liberals would welcome a massive cut back of immigrants to help conserve natural resources, reduce energy consumption and ensure adequate food supplies for the country. It would even help our trade imbalance.

    2/ True progressives would welcome giving opportunities to our own out of work citizens first and foremost.

    3/ True progressives would understand that enticing third world nurses and doctors to come to the UK deprives those countries of their own health care.

    4/ True progressives would suggest its morally right & correct to re-train our own out of work people to be come nurses rather than have them being shunned from the work force.

    5/ True progressives would welcome better wages that would occur naturally due to shortages of skilled staff to encourage our own to seek jobs instead of hiring slave labor from abroad.

    True progressives need to stop acting like fascists and think what they are doing instead of blindly following an outdated ideology thats doesn’t work and brings misery to both our own and others !

    • Disqus Bolloqus

      What is a progressive?

      • WTF

        In my opinion, a ‘progressive liberal’ is an incarnation of the worst traits of both liberals & progressives, let me try and explain.

        First we had ‘liberals’ who looking at the definition of the word ‘liberal’ one would expect them to be laissez faire about life, attitudes and free speech. If only, real liberals are way worse than the likes of Clegg or Abbot for example and are far from liberal in the old sense. They’re even worse than old Labour who used social engineering to change the political and cultural landscape. Once ‘liberal’ became a dirty word a few years back they re-invented their name to ‘progressives’. As before, they chose that word as it gave the impression of a brave new world they were pushing for but it was even worse than liberal attitudes. By linking these two nouns, they have been bastardized by these fascists and we end up with progressive liberals or PL’s for short. Fascism plays a leading role in their approach as its all about control others and trying to make them follow their ideology.

        They are the most cancerous of all anti-social ‘cultural’ or ‘political’ groups as they try to shut down honest debate, they censor facts, they cherry pick to suit their agenda and use ad hominem attacks when they are losing the argument. This level of pond life is very easy to spot on TV or on blog sites as they never answer a straight question with a yes or no. They conflate completely different issues, they try mixing ancient history with current events, 90% of their posts involve name calling and the other 10% are opinions or assertions which they never back up.

        When called out on unsubstantiated ‘facts’ PL’s will switch subjects with lead ins like “but what about ……..” and when they realize the games up, they go off to sulk under some rock. I hope this helps.

        • Harryagain

          Yep. Good post.
          That about sums the tw at s up.

      • Harryagain

        It’s a kind of socialist.
        Socialism always fails.
        But socialists are so brain dead that hey just think a more extreme form is needed when it does.

        You’re watching the failure of the latest variety right now.

    • Mary Ann

      Most terrorists are born in the countries they terrorise.

      • WTF

        They are radicalized from outside the country either by traveling there, by visiting clerics, via the internet and in some cases by immigration. The atrocity in Brussels has exemplified just how bad political correctness is in neutralizing national security. I thought the UK was bad enough after events like the London bombing or Rotherham but Belgium is in another world. Maybe its because its the center of the EU and as such they go to extremes to enable terrorists to operate at will.

        Prior to last week, the police not only didn’t police that hot bed of terrorism, they have rules that only allow them to raid a house between 5 AM and 9 PM and many people have died as a consequence.

        Pity you couldn’t comment on the 95% of what I did post ?

        • JabbaPapa

          The terrorism in Europe pales in comparison to that which occurs daily in Africa and the Middle East …

          • WTF

            So thats alright then !!!!!!

          • MC73

            10% Muslims, only 10% of the death and horror.

        • Sue Smith

          That person is INCAPABLE of any kind of analytical thought.

  • will91

    Two quick points.

    1) Immigrants become old people too!

    2) I wonder if a resident of Bradford (like my grandparents) in the 1950s would have opted for a policy, which in return for a slightly lower paid pool of bus and taxi drivers, you’d submit your city to wholesale demographic and cultural transformation within 3 decades. A place where 57% of the Pakistani community are married to their first cousins. I doubt they or anyone else would have gone along with such a policy.

    • MC73

      1) If they are immigrants from the ex-EU 3rd world dumps the UK draws most of its immigrants from, they will also bring in their elderly relatives, as well as the cousins they marry.

      2) Not just your grandparents being faced with this in the 50s, this is what we are all up against now. The answer has been given.

      I still cannot fathom whether there is some plan that European elites have with regard to immigration or whether the current and indeed previous policy is the result of left wing middle class self-hatred, the single most destructive driver of 20/21st century European history.

      If only these scum had some moral courage to put themselves out of our misery.

  • Pretty_Polly

    Dalrymple might want immigrants but the public does not.

    According to YouGov last August, the public wants a 2 year ‘total ban’ on immigration by a large majority.

  • mahatmacoatmabag

    This is why Judaeo-Christian civilisation in the UK ( and the EU ) is doomed:

    Campaigner, 30, wins the right to be sterilised on the NHS after a four-year battle to prove she NEVER wants children. Holly Brockwell has asked for the procedure every year since she was 26

    Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/new

    ***************

    To sum up: Educated White Feminists wants the NHS to sterilise her. Uneducated 3rd world Muslim women wants to give birth to 8-10 kids in NHS hospital

    • Disqus Bolloqus

      Right, so you’re saying that because some crazy woman has been sterilised, the whole western civilisation will collapse!

      • mahatmacoatmabag

        It’s an insight into the illogical mindset of Western feminists in the face of racial extermination of Western civilisation by mainstream Islam

        • Mary Ann

          It is not extermination of Western civilisation by mainstream Islam, Muslims are not stopping us from having babies. It’s OUR choice. Your logic is not logical.

      • Mary Ann

        I like your name.

      • Grandito

        What I really object to is that the rest of us had to pay for her “designer” sterilisation. If the idiot wants sterilising in her 20’s she should have to pay for it herself.

    • Mary Ann

      Why the daily wail?

  • mahatmacoatmabag

    This is a short but well written article that should worry every UK tax payer – The Death of Europe by Daniel Greenfield

    How the Mohammed retirement plan will kill Europe

    http://www.frontpagemag.com/fp

    • Mary Ann

      It’s the low birth rate that will kill Europe, 1.6 fertility rate, that gives us 10 generations.

      • https://chaunceytinker.wordpress.com/ Chauncey Tinker

        Good spot.

  • Jackthesmilingblack

    Test

  • Sue Smith

    I’m very sorry I bought tickets to hear Dalrymple at Sydney Opera House next month. He obviously talks rubbish. Europe needs migrants who are INVITED in on a NEEDS BASIS (the needs of the new country being of prime importance). Opening the cattle pen to one and all will only cost Europe and the UK in massive social welfare and social disharmony costs. Look at the overall opportunity costs and you’ll see the ‘cost/benefits analysis’ is rather crook!!

    • Mary Ann

      Sue, we do need migrants, we are all living longer and we are not having enough babies to look after ourselves in our old age. Western Europeans will be extinct within ten generations if we we don’t do something about it, and you cannot blame the migrants.

      • Sue Smith

        You obviously didn’t read what I wrote; “skilled migration” programs and not random floods of people, tens of thousands of which do not have English or any skills. That’s just a disaster.

      • David Beard

        I dont think anyone believes that about the pensions anymore. Certainly not when it comes to the tax receipts from part time work and zero hours, and generally minimum wage labour. Most of the people I know who work in shops and pubs do cleaning (especially those with children/ both native Brits and migrants) have to also claim HB/and/or tax credits. Besides, one day the migrants and their children will be needing a pension too.

      • Matt

        Japan is developing robots to look after the elderly. They don’t feel the need to flood their crowded country with millions of immigrants. They will solve their own problems, just as we should.

        • JabbaPapa

          Japan is developing robots to look after the elderly

          I can think of nothing more dehumanising than this.

          • Sanctimony

            No self-respecting robot would have anything to do with you !

          • MC73

            Mary Ann is an example of how robots can be used to spread thousands of untrue statements every week without the need for human input, after the simple ‘immigration good’; ‘EU good’; ‘disagreeing is racism and fascism’ programming…

          • Sue Smith

            Very true.

          • Jackthesmilingblack

            Tomi Toys produce robot dolls with a 1,300-word vocabulary, that’s 300 more than David Beckham. Keeps the elderly entertained, “your plastic pal who’s fun to be with.”.

          • JabbaPapa

            “your plastic pal who’s fun to be with.”

            Might be fun ripping one apart to see what it’s made of inside, but the notion that it’s an appropriate replacement technology for human interaction is obscene.

            Isaac Asimov wrote a novel about it.

      • Sue Smith

        Western Europe is rapidly on the path of extinction already with its hoards of liberal-culturally averse immigrants.

        • Germainecousin

          Sue you could shout until you are blue in the face, but some people just want to put their head in the sand. The students at the LSE who support gender segregated meetings, yet would hound a man who made a slightly sexist remark out of his job, tell you that the lunatics are well in charge.

      • WTF

        The more migrants of a certain persuasion and we’ll be extinct within 4 generations.

  • Harryagain

    You can blame this culture on the femonazis now rampant in our society.
    This was traditionally “wimins work”
    Now the wimmin have this idea the can get some “clean hands job” at a vast salary.
    You never hear of them agitating to be bricklayers.
    Oh, and retire five years sooner than men.
    It’ll soon change when the all have to wear bur k has.

    • Mary Ann

      Retirement age for women was made five years younger than men because men wanted their wives at home when they retired and men tend to marry women who are younger than them. Now of course when men retire their wives are still at work, oh dear, how will they manage!

      • David Beard

        Retirement age for women was made five years younger than men because men wanted their wives at home when they retired

        First I heard of it. And even if it’s so, how does that explain why men have to work five years longer. Unless you’re willing to admit that the men are indeed still expected to be the real breadwinners of society. Then there’s the other thing, overall the women tend to live longer than men.
        No wonder.

        • WTF

          Of course there’s that old joke about men wanting to die sooner and if you were living with one particular poster here, I certainly would !

      • Harryagain

        You just made that up.

        • Mary Ann

          I didn’t, actually, I heard it on the tele years ago, tell me, why do you think that women have had a retirement age lower than men, it’s not as if we die younger, women are more likely to remain fit to work, and traditional women’s work doesn’t require such a high level of fitness.

      • WTF

        BOLLUX –

        In 1940 pension age for women was cut to 60 to try to
        ensure for most couples that the married rate would be paid as soon as the
        husband reached 65. That was why we had a differential in retirement age not because men wanted their wives at home. Men tended to be a few years older than their wives.

    • Marvin

      Migrant do not work, they just breed and treat it as an income.

  • Bonkim

    Will we need more migrants when the present day migrants grow old and need care in their turn?

    • Mary Ann

      They might of course just go home to be looked after by their families.

      • JabbaPapa

        Well, ’round here that’s exactly what a lot the older generation of Arab migrants actually do — I’m well-placed to observe it personally — but the second-generation and younger have no reason to feel the same way, nor many of the older ones who founded families here.

        • Mary Ann

          The second generation are taking on our values, that includes not having enough babies to pay their pensions either, so, more migrants, or poverty……….umm

          • JabbaPapa

            Well there’s some hope in France, where the birthrate is back up at replacement level, and it is mathematically impossible BTW that this is principally from migrants having huge families, the % of migrants simply isn’t large enough to achieve it.

          • richard1949

            Trouble is does that actually give the breakdown by race, certainly in the UK, most population growth is attributed to immigrants

          • Matt

            Nonsense. We need to reduce our population not keep on growing it. Everyone needs to be fed and housed. There’s all this talk of robots and computers taking over jobs, well I suggest that the nursing home of the future will hardly have any people working in it apart from keeping people company. We don’t need a continued immigration ponzi scheme, we should get all British people back to work and maximise productivity to boost output from each person.

            This fashionable worship of mass immigration has gone too far.

          • Mary Ann

            So you have a generous private pension, most people don’t, they need migrants.

          • Matt

            What you’re advocating is a ponzi scheme, whereby people join the scheme at the bottom to support those at the top. But what when they retire themselves? Then what? Even more immigrants?

            Mass immigration has pushed wages down. British people would have more to save and spend without it. What about the costs of having to massively develop infrastructure for a booming population? What about massively rising house prices from mass immigration?

            Mass immigration costs more than it delivers.

          • Chris Knowles

            I think your Ponzi scheme analogy is a good one. The real problem has been the short term thinking of our political establishment and media. They want one thing one minute and something different the next and don’t think anything through to its logical conclusion. They always think in the short term and they all have the same snobbish, slobbish attitude to the British people as Mr Dalrymple.

            If larger populations are important then why have people in Western countries being encouraged to have fewer children for decades? The situation reminds me of the “Millennium Bug”, people knew the year 2000 would eventually arrive, just like they knew that the baby boomers would eventually get old. Nevertheless, they were still at it as recently 2014 as the following Guardian article about how to save the planet by having fewer children attests http://www.theguardian.com/society/2014/oct/28/how-save-planet-stop-having-children-doctors As I said they want a smaller population and a larger population all at the same time.

            Dalrymple complains about a British population that is unwilling to work. This pompous attitude towards the British people is offensive. What does he know about the unemployed as he looks out from his ivory tower. It’s like politicians and media pundits saying that we need skilled workers from abroad. The same talking heads simultaneously claim that standards in education are improving every year. If skilled workers need to be imported then our education system has failed big time! Bad planning at the highest political levels is obvious, but they now want us to believe that mass immigration on the current epic scale is necessary.

            If we need anything then it is for the entire political and media establishment to resign or retire and keep their unhelpful opinions to themselves. They have failed us be creating the world as it is but they somehow want us to think that problems are down to us rather than to their incompetence. Now is not the time to reinforce failure by listening to their crackpot ideas yet again.

          • AWoLsco

            “This pompous attitude towards the British people is offensive.”

            Not surprising in the slightest. ‘Dalrymple’ is not truly British himself. Dalrymple is a pseudonym. Check it out, and unmask this unashamed propagandist and subverter.

            “Bad planning at the highest political levels”

            No. At the highest levels are some very highly intelligent, able people. I didn’t mention honesty, of the highest integrity and pillars of moral rectitude and patriotism. That is the saddest fact of all. They know EXACTLY what they are doing to this country.

            “rather than to their incompetence.”

            No, unfortunately, they are not incompetent at all. I wish they were….then Britain would be a more pleasant and comfortable place to live in.

          • Chris Knowles

            Yes, you have got it right about incompetence, wilful destruction and nialism is closer to the mark. I suppose I was trying to say it ‘looked’ like incompetence. I think they refer to what they do as ‘creative’ destruction.

          • davejon

            isn’t his real name Anthony Daniels? I heard him speak at a Right Now! conference in London a few years ago, and very well appreciated by the secret Tory loons attending.

          • JabbaPapa

            I don’t, and don’t.

          • MC73

            Nonsense. Anyone earning less than around £26k is a net benefactor from the UK system. Assuming they and their employer are legit. Almost all migrants are a burden not a benefit.

          • richard1949

            what are you claim we need migrants, because we are too damn lazy to do the work ourselves, I sincerely hope not anyway how do you know he has a generous private pension do you have access to his bank account, tax records, etc.

      • Bonkim

        On the other hand they might invite their families here and under the European human rights convention they have a right to family support.

        You must be someone that believes in tooth fairies, or in regular contact with them.

        • Mary Ann

          Of course the tooth fairy is real, BTW, I don’t have a problem with migrants, I have migrated to improve my lifestyle as well, Three and a half acres and a four bedroomed house in France for half the price of a 3 bed semi in England. You could do the same, all it needs is get up and go. You should try it.

          • Bonkim

            I suppose migrants are kept in their place in France – so no worries. You would have found cheaper houses and land in say Rumania or Turkey. Good luck.

          • David Beard

            And is Is it in a nice and multicultural part of France where you live Mary?

          • WTF

            She’s a smug b**** this one, she attacks Brits concerned about the UK levels of immigration, she lives in a part of France where you wont see any immigrant other than her own kind and she certainly won’t be shot at by some Muslim Jihadist in the local cafe.

          • David Beard

            Well. she hasn’t replied ; – )

          • WTF

            She wont, lifes too good for her away from all the risks.

      • ashleyhk

        Maybe. What if they don’t? Would ypu force them to, in order to fit your preconception?

      • WTF

        Why would they, they have no assets so they get care homes for free !

    • Sue Smith

      You need more migrants like a fish needs a bicycle.

  • Spud Gansroond

    Rubbish. This is a circular argument. It is a paradox.

  • Marvin

    One dimensional ignorant thinking. Simple maths will show that 75% of migrants are illiterate and primitive with no skills apart from breeding like flies. SO, they take the lowest paid jobs that barely pay any tax, but claim a myriad amounts of benefits for tax credits, children, housing and heaven knows what else they are helped with by the liberal lefty lawyers and social workers. So now they are raking in loads of benefits and paying no tax. How is this a benefit to our country when we have not even mentioned the problems to our infrastructure, like hospitals, doctors surgeries and schools. Single Cell Amoebas.

    • AWoLsco

      “that 75% of migrants are illiterate and primitive”

      That was my experience as a veterinary surgeon and immigrant myself, and non native English speaker. I immigrated from Glasgow to SE England and experienced highly traumatic culture shock, but slowly got over it, but it took many years of struggle and painful adjustment.
      Cutting a long story short, English and Irish girls were easily the best.The immigrants were a surprisingly bolshie lot,Slow on the uptake and with manners so bad that none of them lasted more than a couple of weeks. You’d think, given the opportunity, they’d put in 110% effort to catch the eye and secure their place and aim for a better paid position, which was there on open offer for them….but, no.Some of them even invited their friends round for free coffee and helped themselves to the stationery and other items.If you didn’t have eyes in the back of your head, the place would have been ransacked.

      No. No. This idea that they are a bunch of hard-working angels really needs knocking on the head.

      • Sue Smith

        So, if it’s like that in the UK imagine how bad it is for people of a totally different culture and with a medieval religious affiliation which they regard as taking precedence over the sovereign laws of the new nation!!! Or who would shoot a fellow muslim for wishing somebody “Happy Easter” or being afraid of being killed for leaving said medieval religion.

      • Mary Ann

        Your experience is totally different to mine.

        • WTF

          How would you know, you live in France

      • Marvin

        The lefty fools just cannot bear to see the truth. I just wonder how and where is this government putting all these African illegals pouring in from France daily? Why are they not sending them back to an EU country that they are fleeing from?

    • WTF

      Exactly, we hear time and again about how much tax immigrants pay towards their benefits and even to the point that they pay more than they receive in benefits. There’s some crafty selective cherry picking going on here to make those numbers work as many immigrants are working on the black and many others are can’t possibly pay in tax what they receive for the wife and 2 kids back in eastern Europe.

      • Mary Ann

        Do you know about the loads of British emigrants working on the black in the rest of Europe?

        • WTF

          Of course there are some Brits in Europe working on the black BUT, they aren’t allowed to claim benefits as well. As Basil Fawlty would say, listen up you cloth eared bint !

          Those Brits working on the black in Spain for example, don’t pay tax but neither can they claim for Spanish benefits or free health care which is far less generous than the UK so despite being illegal, they don’t actually cost the Spanish tax payer a euro.

          Those immigrants in the UK who are on minimal wages earning around the tax threshold pay nothing in but they do claim benefits, child benefits for non resident wife and kids so they do cost the UK tax payer a lot of money. Even immigrant & illegal workers on the black in the UK get free health care and pay nothing in unlike Brits in Spain.

          Do you get it now or shall I spell it out in single syllable words !

        • richard1949

          Total and complete rubbish, at least as applied in Sapin, if you honestly think you can com,e to Spain and work “On the black” you are delusional, first of all, exactly what work would you do, secondly unless you worked solely in cash, never operated a bank account, never drove a car, never wanted a Spanish Mobile phone, never wanted to rent a property then yes maybe just maybe you could get away with it for six months.

          Oh and of course never required medical treatment or had an accident.

      • Marvin

        Torments me how these lefty dopes just can’t see the truth. Imagine the deluge that has begun because of the rise of the minimum wage. I expect a million this year from the dregs of Europe.

    • Mary Ann

      The vast majority of EU immigrants I have worked with have university degrees and have come to Britain it improve their English.

      • richard1949

        well that depends on your work, do you clean toilets for a living ?

  • Pretty_Polly

    The British electorate wants a ‘2 year total ban on immigration into Britain’ according to YouGov last August.

    By a large majority too 54/33..

    https://yougov.co.uk/news/2015/08/06/support-radical-left-and-right/

    Thereby confirming that the British people do not want mass immigration, and never have.

    • JabbaPapa

      Yeah.

      Freedom of movement is undeniably an individual human right, but this sort of mass immigration absolutely isn’t.

      But teaching radical selfishness to everyone as a “virtue” has destroyed everything else.

      True virtue is to resist and refuse evils — we prefer to ignore them and focus on our mere comforts instead. Of course, we don’t all have the shameful cowardice of a Corbyn, seeking appeasment with those who desire to kill instead of helping the victims and punishing their murderers.

      • Bonkim

        Are you living in your dream world?

      • Bonkim

        A right given to a selected few by their host countries – not an automatic right.

      • WTF

        We think we have freedom of movement at least within ones country but the truth is its constrained by fiscal wealth.

    • Bonkim

      nobody across the globe want mass immigration of aliens.

      • Sue Smith

        Except for the bien pensant in the dictatorial UN and its army of human rights apparatchiks.

        • Bonkim

          Peter Sutherland is aspiring to get the Nobel Peace Price. And the BBC is a good PR vehicle for the Refugees marching in with their half a dozen children on tow.

      • Kendo Russ

        Sadly corporates do to reduce their own labour costs; and they are getting their way in the EU.

    • Mary Ann

      No. they want a 2 year ban on benefits for migrants, not the same thing.

      • Pretty_Polly

        Why are you pretending?

        The polling question is perfectly clear, and here it is..

        Would you support or oppose the following policies?

        Putting a total ban on immigration into Britain for the next two years?

        The answer is Yes. By a large majority 54/33.

        That question has nothing to do with benefits.

        • richard1949

          just noticed you beat me to it but as you state could not be much more plain and clear

      • richard1949

        Did you look at the poll, it specifically states and shows a majority support a total ban on immigration for two years.

  • MC

    I work overseas serving a need in various countries where my particular skills are short. I have a work visa which is renewed every year. At the end of each contract I return.
    The UK needs such a work visa for short fall areas – whilst training British nationals in the long term – and then ensure that those who complete a contract leave, with the company that sponsored the visa fined heavily in cases where repatriation doesn’t happen.

    • Pragney

      That sounds too much like a sensible suggestion.

  • Margot5000

    Phillipinos and Sri Lankans are fantastic carers and the country would be a lot worse off without them. Can’t see the problem if they come with visas. Unwilling locals on basic wage would NOT replace them.

    • richard1949

      so please explain why Spain which provides a far superior health service employs no migrants or agency staff

      • Bonkim

        Spain has a huge unemployment problem and not many immigrant workers would want to go there because of low wages. Then again there are many slave workers working in Spanish agriculture.

        • Sue Smith

          That’s right; the ‘migrants’ want Muti Merkel to give them cash and housing. Ger-man-y!! Ger-man-y!! You can hear the call of the ‘cargo cult’ mentality all over Europe.

          https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cargo_cult

          • Bonkim

            People are attracted to success and where the grass looks greener.

          • Sue Smith

            Sure, as long as everybody understands it’s economic expedience.

          • WTF

            Spot on, its short term expedience by bean counters nothing more.

          • Bonkim

            Those who have nothing to lose take greater risks. Those that have are afraid of losing what they have.

        • richard1949

          Spanish agriculture tends to be family run and from Spanish acquintances I know who work harvesting fruit and vegetables the wages are more than reasonable.

          • Bonkim

            Yes but you will an underclass of North African/Moroccan illegal labour that walked into the Spanish North African colony. they don’t have the legal safeguards and rights for example that illegal migrants enjoy in Britain.

          • richard1949

            well as far a I know the only ones they gain entry are those that attack and climb the fences the Spanish guards wherever possible give thema good beating and chuck them back over the fence againl both Ceuta and melilla have had rush attacks but I am not aware of any numbers getting over the fence.

            Those that gain entry by boat, Motril is the usual port they head for are arrested and held for deportation.

            In the past amnesty’s have encouraged illegal mmigration in fact causing a huge influx, those days are gone and with the economy floundering many have returned home to South America.

            The lookey lookey men you see trying to sell you knock offs, are mainly from Senegal and the last place they want to be is Spain, they try to get into France, but the French if they catch them turn them back to Spain.

          • Bonkim

            Yes – you have first hand knowledge – regrettably the earth is overpopulated and the battle for survival takes many forms – the Italians and the Spanish were doing in the New World in the 1800 and 1900’s what the Latin Americans and Senegalese are doing today in Europe.

      • WTF

        I’d say its due to the fact that Spain doesn’t tend to attract migrants anywhere as much as Germany, Sweden or the UK because its benefits are far less generous. As a result, there’s far less pressure on migrants pushing down wages in semi skilled & skilled jobs that you’ll find in hospitals with cleaners, catering & nursing. It was certainly my experience in 2002 when I was in Frimley Hospital for 2 days where the staff were asian for the most part and the hospital didn’t come across as ‘clean’ compared to 2015 when I was in a Spanish hospital for 5 days.

        • JabbaPapa

          the fact that Spain doesn’t tend to attract migrants anywhere as much as Germany, Sweden or the UK

          Ludicrous — Spain is a principal first-stop destination of illegal migrancy from the Maghreb.

          • WTF

            In the 11 years I lived there I never saw migrants from Islamic states but just a handful of well integrated Muslims. In fact the fruit and veg shop I usually bought my F&V from was run by a couple of very pleasant Muslim women. I guess the lack of the entitlement culture and benefits sent them north very quickly even if migrants did land along the Costas !

      • Pragney

        The Spanish are flooding Britain just look at their youth unemployment.

        • richard1949

          Flooding is an emotive term, yes Spaniards are looking to the UK for work, in fact on recent trips back to Bristol I was surprisid at how much Spanish I heard being spoken on the street and also certainly in the Hotel and Catering Industry, quite often the person serving me was Spanish.

          However the other side is that the NHS is benefiting greatly as there are a number of Nurses in particular who have moved to the UK to work, the UK should be grateful as Spanish Nurses are well trained and actually care for their patients.

          Youth unemployment is still dreadful here in some places reaching 50%.

          Benefits in Spain are based on the Social Security fund you have built up from what you have paid in and once that goes, it reverts to the minimum which is 400€ a month and that expires after two years.

        • WTF

          Spanish public sector like nurses or doctors are already full of Spaniards so many have no option but to look elsewhere but unlike some migrants, I welcome them as they aren’t a threat to the country.

    • Margot5000

      The Spanish have a different attitude to caring so presumably they do not see such jobs in the same light as do our unemployed. What is needed here is a good and respected training course for care workers – maybe something equiv. to the old SEN. (Though upping the training of nurses to university level has worked in reverse and they are no longer respected as they once were). One could even imagine care workers becoming more respected than nurses and beingmore in demand ifthey were really well trained.

    • David Beard

      Wasn’t it a Filipino carer who turned out to be a serial killer ; -) recently? I dont know any Sri Lankans into care work. But I do agree that they’re generally good workers and good at fitting in over here.

      • Mary Ann

        You can’t blame every Philipino for the sins of one person.

        • Jackthesmilingblack

          That would be Filipino. Why am I surrounded by fools and lunatics?

          • JabbaPapa

            Why am I surrounded by fools and lunatics?

            Like seeks like.

          • EUSSR 4 All!

            But aren’t you a lunatic yourself?!

    • Jackthesmilingblack

      That would be Filipino.

      • Margot5000

        Ta – never realised that. For any other dumbos like me I checked why and it’s because the country name is from the Spanish occupation time and the people name only from about a 100 years. Lesson endeth. Ta again.

    • Kendo Russ

      Then you need to pay above the minimum wage- that’s supply and demand economics.

      • Margot5000

        Above minimum wage doesn’t necessarily bring quality care. The whole system needs a shake up with respect given to carers and it treated as a profession – and yes, wages on par with nurses..

  • Suzy61

    I assume these imaginary 24-year-old girls will both be offered minimum wage for their ‘unskilled’ labour?

    Let us suppose that the Polish girl is married with a husband and child both living back in Poland. Let us also suppose that she is sharing a house with three friends while she is here. Working tax credit, child benefit and housing benefit all make up her wage to a standard she could never hope to earn back in Poland. Her rent and energy costs are split four-ways so she is able to send home to her family a high proportion of her wage.

    Yes, of course she is happy in her work. It’s almost like winning the lottery.

    Her employer? Of course he is happy – a plentiful supply of willing, Polish girls who don’t give him a hard time about their working ‘conditions’ and are more than grateful for the minimum wage.

    It’s a win-win – assuming you are either the Polish girl or the employer.

    • Mary Ann

      The costs would be the same if they employed English girls.

      • WTF

        No they wouldn’t as full accounting would show that because the benefits the Polish girl receives are not spent in the UK thats a tax loss to the UK despite the befit costs coming from the UK. A bit like your expenditure benefits France and mine previously benefited Spain. Both of our ‘spends’ benefit our host countries whilst those host countries do not have to pick up any benefit costs from either of us.

        This might help you understand better, its “Economics for Dummies”

        http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B004S82ODQ/ref=dp-kindle-redirect?ie=UTF8&btkr=1

        • Suzy61

          An amount equal to our foreign aid budget (11 Billion) was sent out of the UK in 2014 by migrants back to their home countries.

          This is hardly ever factored in to the ‘immigration is good for us’ figures.

          • WTF

            With VAT around 20% that’s around 2 billion lost to the tax payer that originally came from the tax payer, a double whammy but MA doesn’t want to talk about that !

      • Suzy61

        If the Polish girl was back in Poland she would be earning, for a minimum wage job, 409.00 euros per month.

        While she is here, for a minimum wage job, she earns 1378.00 euros per month plus working tax credits and child benefit. Of course, most of this will be sent back to Poland where it is worth 3 x more than the zloty.

        Little wonder why the Polish are all so ‘willing’ and ’employable’.

        That was my point.

  • richard1949

    Ok I will admit I did scan the article but it appears to me that the author Theodore Dalrymple is using the particular to argue the general and in fact only offer anecdotal evidence to argue his points.

    I live in Spain and whilst the health service itself is of the highest quality, it is generally well known and accepted that aftercare is provided by the family or in the case of us ex-pats usually by Friends and Neighbours, there are no migrants here employed in the health service either as frontline staff or after care.

    Migrants here are not required to fulfil such roles, it is either Spanish native born nationals, family or close friends.

    Why oh why does the UK in particular seem to need such an army of immigrant staff when other countries can fill those roles from their native populations.

    • WTF

      I totally concur as last year I spent 5 days in Denia hospital on the Costa Blanca and the treatment was as good as any similar treatment I have received in the UK or the USA. The hospital was spotless and unlike some UK hospitals I got the feeling it was cleaner because of the attention to detail over cleanliness. As such I had a very painless stay for 5 days after a 5 hour operation with no after effects like infections. As you posted, ALL the staff were Spanish from surgeons, doctors, nurses, catering and cleaning staff and although I can get by in Spanish, they spoke English at levels required for the task. It was almost like a 5 day vacation other than I couldn’t move much and additionally, I had free wi-fi access for the Internet.

      The Spanish do rely on family and friends for non medical care or support but I had a good friend who picked me up from the hospital and took me to the farmacia for after care drugs. My only ‘shock horror’ was finding out I had to give myself anti-coagulant shots for 4 weeks but after 2 days I got used to injecting myself. I agree, if the Spanish can run their hospitals with their own people and IMO do a better job, why can’t the NHS. Perhaps its bean counters looking at a short term gain rather than the costs of litigation when someone dies !!!!!

      • richard1949

        Yes anti-coagulant shots are standard to avoid an embelism (I had to take them for month after my operation in Comarcal Hospital Torre del mar), I note recently that two english patients were discharged from an NHS hospital after operations without anti-coagulants and both died from embolisms, apparently they are not generally given to patients in the Uk after operations

        • WTF

          That’s scary and had the re-section been done in the UK I wouldn’t have been any the wiser not being told about it or being given a prescription for 4 weeks of needles. Sounds a bit like a cost saving exercise in the NHS when the only reason I can think of for not taking the anti-coagulant is if you are taking blood thinning pills or have a blood coagulation issue which the pre-check meeting and blood tests should show up. Luckily I haven’t any blood issues or allergies so no problem.

      • Mary Ann

        I expect the Spanish system costs more to run, the French system is about 50% more expensive than the NHS to run, probably something to do with all the paper-work it generates.

        • WTF

          Hardly, as I’ve seen no evidence to suggest that the Spanish health care system is paying out 35 billion euros each year on claims against them unlike the NHS. In fact 20% of the NHS budget is to pay compensation claims for malpractice. As I posted elsewhere, the bean counters look to save money by employing third world slave labor so they can justify their high salaries and perks but the tax payer picks up the tab for failures.

          http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/health/news/10189204/Jaw-dropping-rise-in-NHS-claims-after-scandals.html

        • WTF

          Actually according to 2016 figures the French health system costs around 25% more than the UK whilst the UK costs around 10% more than Spain. That probably explains why the quality of treatment is inferior in the UK as a large chunk of costs goes on compensation claims.

        • richard1949

          I can speak authoritively on the Spanish Health System as I live there pay for it and use it. Spanish State health System expends slightly less of it’s GDP on Health than the UK system.
          It does however provide a first class system that provide prompt, professional service, in it Hospitals staffed by compntent and Professional Doctors and well trained and Caring Nurses backed up by auxilary staff who attend to patients needs and erwho keep the Hospitals spotlessly clean.
          As your first point of contact you go to a medical centre which is open and staffed 24 hours a day, 365 days a year by Doctors who can actually accurately diagnose and arrange for appontments when necessary online with Consultants and never more than 2 weeks away and if urgent on the spot.
          Yes of course a thild world service in your eyes but I would choose it over the service that failed to daignose my bowel cancer for ten years in the UK and only when examined by my local medico here in Spain , did she immeditately get me in front of a consultant, who arranged for my now successful treatment and guess what all in less than a month.

          • WTF

            My experience as well. November 2014 I received a letter from the health authority for a standard feces test, received test kit within 2 weeks, supplied sample and was called in for colonoscopy in December. Key hole surgery required and went in to hospital early February for 5 days. End of Feb, got the all clear from the surgeon and job done. There was nothing to fault as all the Spanish medical staff were excellent.

          • JabbaPapa

            a standard feces test

            Many talkbackers in here obviously need one of those !!

    • David Beard

      Could be a lot of reasons, Brits tend to relocate and scatter themselves far and wide even on the map of Blighty itself.
      Most of the people I know in London in their fifties or sixties tend to have children living in places where it’s cheaper to buy into the housing market or because that’s where their jobs took them. Unlike Spain, we also work longer hours and retire later. And of course Spain will have a better health service because it’s not an international health service.
      Anyway, having said all this, who looks after your aging parents here if you’re over there?

      • richard1949

        Yes that is true and obviously circumstance will vary, we are scattered all over the place a brother in France, me in Spainj a sister who splits her time between the UK and the USA and another sister and brother who live local. When my parents were alive we used to do rotas, my father made us promise that we would not put him into a care home and we did not, sadly my mother succumbed to Alzheimers and had to be taken into care. when her condition worsened.

        • David Beard

          Thanks Richard. You sound you like you’ve got it about right. Shame about your Mother.
          Have a good Easter mate.

      • Mary Ann

        The Spanish health service looks after British pensioners, it is part of the requirements of the EU treaty, EU citizens who settle in another EU country get the same health care as the locals, whatever that may be. Spain has a lot of EU migrants.

        • WTF

          Did you really understand he wrote or bother to check what you post ?

          Spain does NOT look after OAP’s and supply care home facilities that is what David Beard was alluding to and I doubt any other EU country does. They do supply full hospital treatment however they do not supply many of the non medical services such as transportation to out patients for example. For disabled pensioners that has to be arranged by yourself normally through family or friends in the Spanish way.

          • richard1949

            exactly right, it is expected in Spain that the family provides the after care and within the ex-pat community, be it English, Fench, German, Dutch etc, we all help each other.
            The standard of healthcare here in Spain in my anecdotal experience is outstanding, it is a state health system that provides prompt professional care, in clean Hospitals all run by native Spanish Staff, yes that’s right all Spanish Citizens no agency or immigrant staff not even the cleaners and they are obsessive about cleanliness as far as I could see.

    • Alex

      Because we will insist on giving people doing those jobs such terrible pay and working conditions. This being especially true of the health service at present.

      • richard1949

        Hey, a close friend of my wife is an agency nurse working in NHS hospitals in intesive care units for some shifts she has been paid as high as 1500 pounds and never less than 500 pounds.

        • Margot5000

          Bad government and bad management. Bring on the immigrants.

      • nutsingha

        That is surely simply a case of shockingly bad management of tax-payer funds. The answer is not to bring in more nurses and doctors from foreign countries who are – too often – very poorly trained, and with terrible English, leading to the breakdown of the NHS..as mismanagement and bungles are covered by getting ever-cheaper and more incompetent staff.
        Clear it all out, and get some decent private-sector managers to sort it out. And bring back matron whilst at it!

        • Alex

          It is by design: in fact, the “private sector managers” that are there are essentially placemen. The Tories, having personal financial interests in private healthcare companies, try every time to destabilise the NHS financially by imposing reorganisations and inserting ever more layers of management with a brief to reduce spending.

          These cuts of course cost more in the end, because people don’t just magically get well/rich/whatever when you take away their support. Although I know this has always been a bit of a tough one for Tories to understand, they’re quite simple creatures.

          Always ask: cui bono? It sure ain’t us.

    • Frank

      Because we have had generations of journalists/politicians/teachers/social workers/ who have made it clear that manual labour is “bad” (as per the article) whilst mocking all initiatives to encourage the unemployed into decent work. At some point, we really ought to lock up everyone who worked/works for the Guardian!

      • right1_left1

        You are quite right
        The attitudes are are inculcucated in public schools..

        Supercillious scroungers extraordinaire !

  • JohnJ

    Well I suppose I expected it, Theodore had parochialised. Yes, there is enormous advantage in having migrants from cultures who respect old people to look after them. So what does that do to the locals. They ‘pass the buck’, they never learn, they become old people and expect, well, who to look after them?
    You have abnegated your responsibility of the older man to ensure that the current culture is ethical. You have given up and now just take advantage of the perks. But that is the result of cynicism. It must turn on itself. It produces the very cause of the cynicism and like the wormwood plant, it eventually poisons itself.

  • MrJones

    nah

  • gustafus

    Dalyrimple doesn’t have to live next to the Haitian son of that nurse… who robs and rapes in the neighborhood.

    this is just another elitist who doesn’t want to lose his House N#gger.

  • Edward Olson

    The elephant in the article is that the author never uses the words “Islam” or “Muslim”.
    But there is a dog whistle in the last sentence.

  • wasteman

    BS NHS never needed migrants

    now its become reliant on them

  • puhiawa

    Bunch of nonsense. The majority of these “immigrants” fully intend to kill you off. Now they are using your laziness and inability to have and educate children to get sufficient numbers of their fellow cultists within the gates.

  • Pragney

    Those people don’t come from cultures which is antithetical to our own. The problem is Islam in its many manifestations and the cultures that breed this vile ideology.

  • SupplyGuy

    Interesting. 1000 years ago the Vikings sailed out of Norway in mass migration throughout Europe, merging w/ and sometimes overcoming the cultures that they conquered. Now their descendants are succumbing to mass migration wiping out their culture. An interesting time to be alive.

    • Frank

      Not really a good comparison. If the Western Governments decided that they wanted to wipe out the invading virus, they could do so very quickly and easily. The Viking genes are still there in most of Northern Europe!!
      IS is a bit like a thick child prodding a tiger, eventually the tiger will retaliate and that will be an interesting period. It is not clear whether Iran, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, etc, understand this reality, but we shall see in due course.

      • Edward Olson

        Boy, how I hope you are right.
        I think you are.
        After all, it was Europeans who conquered the globe.

        • AWoLsco

          “it was Europeans who conquered the globe.”

          Only true for the last 500-600 yrs, a blink of an eye in human history.
          Many Europeans would do well to remember that they came near to being snuffed out on many occasions.
          Greece nearly fell to the Persians.
          Rome fell to the Huns.
          What if Charles Martell had lost at Poitiers?
          What if the Mongols didn’t walk way from Krakow( after slaughtering 40,000 knights on the plains of Hungary)and return to Karakorum on the death of the Khan?( only some 800yrs ago)

          What if John Sobieski had lost at the Gates of Vienna?

          Amazing to think that only 600yrs ago, all the white people in the world were only to be found crammed into the western scrag-end of Eurasia, at risk of extinction and under perpetual assault.
          Makes you think doesn’t it? Ask yourself why that was so., when we know now that whites were once in China and India.

          Maybe there’s something to this notion of white supremacy after all?
          Supremacy sounds more appealing…… and safer, than inferiority.

      • SupplyGuy

        I’ve thought so myself that they would eventually retaliate, but as time goes by I’m becoming more skeptical about that.

        • Frank

          Yes, but you have to take into account 50 years of brainwashing by the trendy left (nothing to do with the ROP, etc), so that is quite a switch to finally realise that it is OK to defend yourself!

  • Cobbett

    Thai and Filipina nurses GOOD…Muslim males BAD.

    Easy really.

  • roccolore

    No one is saying that there shouldn’t be migrants. The problem becomes when they flood certain parts of the world just for the welfare benefits.

  • 4thaugust1932

    Highly skilled wage slave?

  • mike_in_brum

    Blah, blah, blah! Just round them all up and kick them out!

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  • sussexoracle

    The idea that we need even more immigrants is repugnant, There will soon be an unprecedented surfeit of labour, caused by automation. It is barely a decade since there were banks and building societies in abundance on every High Street. Gone, to be replaced by charity shops.

    Far better would be to demand employers pay a living wage to young people offering them training and skills which they require to escape from poverty.

    As things are, by the time a youth working at minimum wage (often on zero hours) pays transport and lunch costs, he will barely be able to fund a pair of shoes with what’s left of his pay.

    What’s more,honest and respectable occupations are now unaffordable to ordinary people. In my own city rents and house prices have escalated to such an extent that no one working as, say, a postman, can afford to live here, unless living with (i.e, subsidised by) their parents.

  • Miss Floribunda Rose

    The vast majority of middle class persons are snobs. The dumb tw@ts are unable to help it. And as for those lazy working class pigs, the kuntz sound totally ghastly! Immigrants, on the other hand, are absolutely marvellous. The more the merrier.

    • Cyril Sneer

      You’re a kunt and ghastly to boot.

      Hang yourself.

      • Miss Floribunda Rose

        Titter.

      • Father Todd Unctious

        It is incredible that the moderators allow this idiocy. A known shill just spouting rude crap telling people to commit suicide. You grotesque little nobody.Shut up FFS.

    • JabbaPapa

      bloody troll

      • Miss Floribunda Rose

        Trollette, s’il vous plait…..

        • Larry Bond

          I’ve just read though some of your comments — they are very funny… 🙂

  • Jacobi

    One definition of a society in decay is that while seeking hedonism and avoiding responsibility for future generations, it fails to reproduce itself.

    UK and European society falls within this definition at present. As such it needs immigrants, since we do not call them slaves any more.

    But the immigrants should be of the type who wish to fit into and conform to our society such as happened in post-Roman empire period, the so called “Dark Ages “ some 14 hundred years ago.

    We do not need nor can we want immigrants who have intent to religiously suppress and convert us by fair means or foul to their religion and way of life, particularly when it is that cruel philosophy called Islam.

    • HoolyK

      “But the immigrants should be of the type who wish to fit into and conform to our society such as happened in post-Roman empire period, the so called “Dark Ages “ some 14 hundred years ago.”

      But didn’t Constantine bring in a religion from the Middle East and make it the official religion of Rome, how is this different from the current crop of Barbarians banging on the gates? The so-called Barbarians were Christian, the current ones are Muslim, both are Semitic religions are they not? Both Muhammad and Jesus were bearded Semitic males were they not?

      • AWoLsco

        “Both Muhammad and Jesus were bearded Semitic males were they not?”

        No. Jesus was a ‘gall’,……foreigner…… or ‘goy’ just like us, Europeans.

        Gallilee means ‘field of the foreigners’,….. or goys, the cattle,…….. if you prefer.
        No Jesus was never a semite. He was a vehement anti-semite and was proud to be so..

        • br14

          “He was a vehement anti-semite and was proud to be so”

          He may have spent his childhood in Gallilee but according to his compatriots he was of the tribe of Judah. Ergo, Semitic.

          And he may have been many things, but except on perhaps one occasion he was never “vehement”. Quite the opposite.

          • HoolyK

            I’ve heard this smear, that Jesus wasn’t really a Jew but rather just a gentile trying to pass himself off as a Jew … that Mary was raped by a Roman soldier, etc, etc … surely the persistence of this rumor shows there is some truth to it?

          • Simon Platt

            No smoke without fire, eh?

        • JabbaPapa

          He was a vehement anti-semite and was proud to be so

          What ludicrous crap.

      • JabbaPapa

        But didn’t Constantine bring in a religion from the Middle East and make it the official religion of Rome

        No. That happened centuries later.

  • AWoLsco

    “The last virtue of a dying society is tolerance”….said philosopher Socrates, some 2,500 yrs ago in ancient Greece.
    “He who knows nothing of history, remains forever a child.”….Cicero, Roman poet, philosopher and lawyer.

    Plus ca change, plus c’est la meme chose.
    Greece, Rome,now London.

    Socrates, of course, got the chop, or the Greek equivalent, forced to take poison, for speaking the uncomfortable truth……rather like those that get banished by ‘moderators'(gatekeepers) from the Guardian or Telegraph in our times…..
    On quaffing the aforementioned poison, in the form of hemlock, his last words were…..
    ” A good hemlock……but not a great hemlock.”

    • Larry Bond

      You see no way back, no way in which we could rebuild or strengthen our society?

  • HoolyK

    For all those defending native workers over migrants, you people never stop and ponder whether natives deserve to be protected from migrant labor. I say NO! Sadly, the author is right when he disparages Brit staffed hotels vs. migrant staffed hotels, there is simply no comparison. Native Brit workers have a sense of entitlement that makes them simply bad workers for menial occupations, sad but true. Where does this sense of entitlement come from? who has told them that they don’t arrive to work on time? that they show some dedication to an employer? that they can’t thieve and steal and drink and take drugs on the job? My theory is all these World War II movies and documentaries you see in the UK, it makes every working class Brit think they single handedly won the Battle of Britain and WWII and now they deserve the spoils of war or something. It’s pathetic, this attitude one finds in Britain.

    • AWoLsco

      “My theory is all these World War II movies and documentaries you see in
      the UK, it makes every working class Brit think they single handedly won
      the Battle of Britain and WWII and now they deserve the spoils of war
      or something”…..

      Well, of course, that is the very intention of such films. They were deliberately made to whip up and maintain feelings of anti-Germanism…….but it didn’t work….on me….my father and his brother, and my granfdfather….who actually fought them.
      They did their duty, as one must…..but without hatred….as I suppose many a German took up arms, for very noble reasons….to defend the Fatherland.

      • davejon

        And what was the point of that war? Poland was given to a far worse dictatorship in 1945 and there were as many Jews after 1945 as before 1939, albeit scattered to Israle, US, UK etc.

    • Kendo Russ

      The author doesn’t also have a sense of entitlement? To cheap foreign labour to support his lifestyle.

      • HoolyK

        So what’s new? the English upper classes have always had a love affair with all things Continental and foreign. The long suffering Working Classes of England can never expect any solidarity from ‘their betters’. What’s the difference really from hiring a Pole or a Pleb? They both talk funny and didn’t go to public school after all.

        • Kendo Russ

          To be honest Hooly, I still think it’s a spoof, and a good one. What sane person could hold such views?

    • http://www.hotjava-wakeupandsmellthecoffee.blogspot.com/ lisamhawkins

      Same in USA. Entitlement thinking rife here too.

  • Picquet

    They’re cheap and available, while our own unemployed are reclining in a’safety net’. There’s a moral issue here, together with a question about the recipients of my taxes.

  • br14

    Not sure the authors personal experience with his mother-in-law qualifies him to speak on the topic. What complete and utter nonsense.

    “If you want to go to a really bad large hotel in Britain, find one in which the staff are British.” How could you possibly know? Have you done a country of origin survey of all “really bad large hotels”? (In my extensive experience, large hotels are almost all bad regardless of staff origins).

    The fact is that massive inward migration causes downward pressure on the wages of the poor. It primarily benefits the rich and the multi-national corporations with which they are linked by reducing labour costs.

    I appreciate that limiting the supply of cheap nannies might cause the odd problem for the metropolitan elite.

    In 1997, when deciding on the re-engineering of British society through an explosion in the number of inward migrants, Messrs Blair and Brown realized they would need to introduce a minimum wage to prevent their policy from totally devastating the poor. Coincidentally they introduced this policy in 1998. A year that saw inward migration increase by some 500%. Around the same time a coordinated campaign saw the term “racist” applied to anyone who was concerned about the rapid rise in population and the consequent cultural changes the Blair social re-engineering project created.

    Were inward migration to be limited, eventually the rules of supply and demand would mean organizations would be forced to train their staff and pay them appropriate wages. Some employers might even have to move to other parts of the country where some of the 2 million unemployed live.

    It may surprise the author, but for most of us ordinary mortals, financial reward is the primary motivation for employment. Not the only motivation I will accept, but the primary. Provided decent employment conditions and reasonable wages and you might be surprised at what British workers can achieve.

  • Fritz123

    Yes, we need them (some), but they will not do the low work (for long). We need them most of all to beat our decadence. Our lack of new ideas and so on. Our lameness.

    Look at those boring Islamophobes. They dont understand fun, it is not more for them. Cruelty is the equivalent of luxury and they are much more capable then our poor souls to celebrate both. What is an English soldier shouting to naked prisoners in Iraq compared to rape and beheading? El Laurence learned it the hard way. It drove him crazy and they will drive us crazy as well. The first victim will be language. Racists, hate, well so far we have allready gone. We have no chance anymore. Lets build mosquees.

  • Fritz123

    Come on, what would London be without Europeans?

  • JohnnyNorfolk

    We only depend on migrants because we have decided to do it that way.

    • Simon Platt

      We only depend on migrants because “they” have decided to do it that way.

  • Kendo Russ

    This has to be a spoof, right? The writer is condemning working class Brits for being unwilling to take a minimum wage to do a job he is unwilling to do for his own mother by himself. Arrogance and selfishness rolled into one, his poor mother!

    • Susan Heywood

      The author is quite clearly a liberal leftist idiot with mush for brains. Its his, and others liberal views that are turning the UK into a third world cesspit. Everything was better back in the 60s and 70s, all of us old enough to have lived back then know that. Todays UK is a simmering mix of immigrant hatred, rape, murder, fraud and poverty, all thanks to mass immigration which we all pay our taxes to support as not enough immigrants even work.

      • MungBean

        Not sure that TD is a “leftist idiot”…

    • Mary Ann

      Suppose she needs her bottom wiping, perhaps she would rather it were done by another woman.

  • tim78945

    If we do need these immigrants then leaving the EU is preferable. As things stand we cannot bring in the labour we actually need because of the flood of immigration from within the EU. The more EU citizens who come here we don’t need, the fewer from outside the EU can come in that we do need.
    Interesting that he concentrates on health care. The NHS is exempt from the immigration strictures imposed on other UK companies.

    • Mary Ann

      If Britain leaves the EU and all our pensioners living in Europe have to come back not only will we need all our migrants who work in the NHS we shall need some more, Old people spend far more time in hospital than the young people migrating here from the EU

  • Ominous

    Europe needs migrants because of the failure of the native populations to reproduce at or above replacement levels. The massive welfare states need a growing tax base to make them even some what viable. Europeans have to replace themselves with people from a different civilisation in order to keep them in the welfare addled stupor they’ve become accustomed to.

    • JEFF

      That is due to Feminism,Governments and the Corporate worlds,it’s traveling around the world and destroying Relationships. Men and Women are so divide. Men are simple and women are complex

      • Al Hope

        Good news, all the rulers are ruthless, conniving and greedy. Be sure that they are all plotting toward the International Tribunals for the Indo-European Geneocide that has been waged these last few decades. Whoops, some rulers are in big trouble!

      • Mary Ann

        It’s due to women being given the same opportunities as men and deciding they prefer work to staying at home with babies.

    • Al Hope

      Europe does not need migrants…that is a geneocide talking point. Our rulers are systematically stressing the Indo-European population centers ot fulfull their egomaniacal gene-blending scheme.

      What is cool is watching the non-geneocide rulers moving closer and closer to International Tribunals for the largest crime against humanity since WWII.

      • Mary Ann

        If we don’t have migrants there will not be enough people working to pay pensions.

        • Al Hope

          Nope, that is a geneocide talking point.

          Do we not all watch the same TV and get programmed, I mean taught, by the same public school? Have we not been systematically taught NOT to have children, NOT to keep families together, NOT to be proud of our own people? Culture does not change on its own Mary Ann. powerful folks cram in into all of our brains.

          You better be careful Mary Ann, one cannot unlearn the blatent truth about this Indo-European Geneocide. If you find yourself crying uncontrollably in the coming weeks, reply to this post again.

          More questions please.

          • Mary Ann

            It is not migrants who are stopping us having enough babies to keep Western Europeans going, it is our choice not to have babies. Divorce makes it too risky for women to give up paid employment to raise their children, raising children and working full time is hard work.

          • Al Hope

            Folks were methodically encouraged to NOT have babies, while immigrants were methodically flooded in. Fortunately people really do know have to have babies.

            What is the benefit of promoting geneocide against Indo-European genes, despite this being an international crime against humanity?

    • Larry Bond

      Could you please explain a bit about what you mean by “welfare addled stupor”?

  • Dougie

    Of course we depend on migrants. But wouldn’t it be nice to be able to decide which migrants we accept instead of having to admit anyone with the right of residence in the EU?

    • Margot5000

      1. It’s one lot of non-EU migrants that are giving us the problems – and they rarely take up care work.
      2. Another group of non-EU migrants are brilliant carers.
      Unfortunately most of 1. have the right to stay and most of 2. do not.

    • Mary Ann

      Millions of British people take advantage of freedom of movement as well.

      • Dougie

        And you believe having to let gangs of Romanian pickpockets into the UK is a price worth paying?

  • nutsingha

    Someone should tell the author that anecdotes are not proper arguments. Very low brow article, bashing the British, and promoting false propaganda about the value of migrants. Bringing in the 3rd world to treat the 3rd world in our hospitals is not an answer. Though some ‘do’ good works, the 3rd worlders are actually overwhelmingly bleeding us dry on welfare and medical – not to mention all the money we pay out for their children in credits, education, subsidised housing etc. In return for all our generosity, all we get is more welfare breeders and a socially discordant society (not to mention more violent, particularly for women and children); and – huge bonus this – our entire culture is now in fear of its very existence because we are being out-bred at the same time as loaded down by mass immigration from entirely antithetical cultures.
    I should note that people coming from relatively skilled countries (such as Europe), do about as well as the average British person. It is about ‘break even’, so not a reason to change a culture by importing massive numbers of Eastern Europeans either.
    This entire article is a horrible exercise in propaganda – nothing more.

    • http://www.hotjava-wakeupandsmellthecoffee.blogspot.com/ lisamhawkins

      Parents need to transmit to their children that doing certain kinds of
      work is not “beneath them” but since the 60’s/70’s, maybe prior,
      the cultural attitude is that young people (esp college-bound)
      shouldn’t stoop to that kind of employment.

      Some of my friends and I worked in retail or fast food (in our teens
      & early 20’s) but many of our classmates wouldn’t have been “caught dead” doing such work! I knew several families that discouraged their sons from entering the
      military: “let someone else’s family sacrifice their sons” was their
      *ATTITUDE*. So you’re gonna blame today’s young Brits? Look at the
      previous generation. please!

      I also find Dalrimple’s concern for his mother-in-law slightly amusing: her life would
      be “shortened” by her going into a nursing home?! How old is she anyway?
      In her 80’s/90’s? Is he not aware that too many young people lose their
      lives daily due to war, disease, accidents??

      A family member of mine, early 20’s, is battling a serious disease; one of my children barely made it out of Israel: health issues sent her running almost daily to hospitals/clinics all while praying to dodge terrorist stabbings. So why is a nursing home, at age 80+, such a horrible fate?? Perhaps his mother-in-law should offer up thanks to G-d for having
      her life instead!

      The problem lies with Theodore and his generation: they passed ideas of elitism & snobbery onto their children ~ a master’s or doctoral candidate or any would-be professional ~ MUST NEVER soil their hands cleaning or cooking or doing menial errands. Voila: You have an out-of-control migrant problem in the West which won’t end anytime soon. Why doesn’t Dalrymple write the truth: the bad *ATTITUDES* [values] of native Brits like himself came from this sort of thinking?

      SUM UP: The West’s *ATTITUDES* coming home to roost. Don’t blame today’s
      youngsters, it’s been that way for several generations. nutsinga is right; citing this
      post as “a horrible piece of propaganda” correctly nails it!

  • CAgirl

    Liberals always like to tell this lie. I am in my 60s and when I was a teenager WE gladly took all of these jobs. And we’re very happy to have them! It is an absolute LIE that any country needs millions of ” immigrants” to fill the jobs of a nation. Thanks to immigrants,i.e. “Illegal aliens” in the United States, the old “entry level” jobs that teenagers use to get are mostly filed with illegals who now cry that they can’t live on the wages they make. Also, young boys mowing lawns for money is pretty much gone forever. Also, the great Japanese gardeners who really knew all about everything in your yard. Now all you can find is Mexicans who only mow your lawn and know nothing else. They under bid everyone else and pretty much put them out of business…now you can’t find a true “gardener”. I remember when I could show my gardener a leaf from and plant and he could tell me exactly what know of plan it was and what was wrong with it and how to make it healthy again. Those days are long gone….thanks to “immigrants”. I want them to stay home and make their own country better, not come here and drag mine down to their level……8-(

    • Jackthesmilingblack

      Bad for glass.

    • Susan Heywood

      You are so right CAgirl….

    • Mary Ann

      Wasn’t your Japanese gardener an immigrant?

  • https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCRNK32VQRC1zSS3iQVVjdQQ Mortus Victus

    Some alternatives exist already, and with a fraction of the cost that has been used, and will be used on bringing migrants from third world countries up to spec as caregivers for our most vulnerable. Especially considering the employment numbers in the same “rescource”, where a majority of them end up living on welfare.

    How many billions of Euros / Dollars would it take to refine and develop already existing technology to something that would free up chores and drudgery from existing staff, and let them get on with more complicated tasks? This would also buy some more needed time to further improve the solutions.

    Look at some of these robot caregivers

    http://etaleem.net/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/Woman-demonstration-face-of-bear-Nagoya-Polar-Bear-Robot-Robear.jpg

    • Margot5000

      THAT has already been tried and has resulted in nurses who have had a ‘university’ education and ended up too posh to do anything other than look at a computer screen. The equiv. to SENs are needed. The SENs had a good training but even with them existing the SRNs of the time didn’t consider the basic nursing beneath them – or they weren’t allowed to think so by sisters and matrons.

      • https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCRNK32VQRC1zSS3iQVVjdQQ Mortus Victus

        That is odd to say the least! How can it have been tried already, if the products have never been sold in the UK ? They are as far as I know prototypes in development only in Asia at the moment. Or maybe you have more info about what you refer to ?

        • Margot5000

          Tried in the sense that it seemed a good idea to have a ‘University trained’ group who would pass their days looking at a screen and a large group of underlings who could come from the job centre and start work immediately – the equiv. of robots. The sort of routine work that exists in healthcare could not be done by actual robots.

          • https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCRNK32VQRC1zSS3iQVVjdQQ Mortus Victus

            “The sort of routine work that exists in healthcare could not be done by actual robots.”

            I disagree, and thankfully so does dozens of companies around the world who are currently developing solutions for the following areas :
            ►cleaning patients and their rooms and beds,
            ►helping them in and out of bed in the morning and evening,
            ►bringing them food, even feeding them,
            ►transporting to/from their rooms to be X-rayed etc
            ►mental stimulation, keeping patients company with actual participation, general conversation, playing chess or cards or whatever.

            It seems obvious to me that assistance in these areas could be considered a pretty massive help, and a definite improvement to the already thinly stretched hospital staff.

            Based on several of your other comments under this article, it seems to me that you personally have something against ‘University trained’ staff, leading me to suspect that you might have suffered what you consider abuse or disrespect from that group.

            That does not detract from the benefits of, and clear indications pointing in the directions of robots being implemented in a large degree in our near future.

          • Margot5000

            I guess I have to reply to that. I haven’t ‘suffered abuse or disrespect’ or whatever but have arrived at the view which is held by many others that when nursing became a university training it soon lost all the (very high) respect it once held – and standards went south of course. The examples you give of stuff that could be roboted would only become actuality when we are all robots. Hospital treatment has already become similar to a car being serviced but not even that is currently done by robots and human beings need a lot more ‘care’ than cars.

  • anyfool

    We would not need migrants for the NHS, if we did not have millions of migrants.
    As to the shortage of nurses, bring back state enrolled nurses, nurses who learned their craft on the job.

    • Margot5000

      Spot on.

      • Susan Heywood

        Totally agree with both of you. If not for mass immigration we would not need all these extra staff, and we would still have the NHS that was once the envy of the world, unlike todays immigrant ridden third world NHS. It amazes me that some foolish idiots try to thank immigrants for our NHS, the NHS was around long before we were flooded with foreigners, and the service was much better too.

        • Mary Ann

          Since then we have had 6 years of Tory government.

      • Mary Ann

        He’s wrong.

        • Margot5000

          I meant that he is right to call for the return of SENs.

    • Mary Ann

      26% of Doctors are migrants, that’s about twice the percentage of migrants.

  • Maureen Matthew

    Canada depends on immigrants as well – if it wasn’t for the Philippines, the number of nurses in the Saskatchewan health care system would not be enough to provide any services. And I’m very thankful for that.

    BUT the unasked question is “What the heck is our k-12 system and the university/college system doing that we don’t have young people entering into the employment fields that are needed?” In Canada at least we spend billions of dollars in the education system and we still don’t get enough students going in the STEM sectors (including health). Every year teachers want more and more and more and produce less and less.

    And yet we have thousands of people on Employment Insurance being picky about the work they are eligible for or are willing to take because Employment Insurance pays more that the jobs that the unemployed are qualified for.

    • Margot5000

      Those forced into care work would not make good carers.

  • Hagen vanTronje

    It is utterly shameful that the UK Government is quite willing to entice Medical staff to leave their third world countries to come to the UK to work and leave their own folk in the lurch.
    Any decent government would have made providing home grown Medical staff a priority but it’s cheaper to employ Filippinos !

  • Patrick K

    I’m not sure I’ve come across many Poles who were polite and eager to please. Hardworking and punctual, certainly, but dour people in the main.

    • http://www.hotjava-wakeupandsmellthecoffee.blogspot.com/ lisamhawkins

      Not only Poles but other ethnic groups too.

  • Seawolf

    If we need the young to prop up the pensions of the old, why on earth are we not importing those unemployed from fellow EU nations such as Spain, Portugal, Italy and Greece, rather than those from outside the EU? That would solve two problems at once.

  • green hackle

    Yes You are Dead right, we Do need migrants, But whats the problem with us Choosing who comes in and who goes out rather than the Dregs of the EU and the Wider world turning up and Demanding There Human rights, Which means that They and there Extended Families become My Problem, A Problem that I Never Asked for, and Dont Want, Do You remember Human Rights?, They are the Things that Everybody Else seems to have But You..its time we Took Them Back..

    • Margot5000

      Suggest you check out their and there.

  • Roger Hudson

    I don’t mind any immigrants who come for work, if they have a job, if they go through checks to get a work permit and residency. You should see what a Croatian ( subject to EU transitional rights) has to prove to be given a work permit, no criminal record for a start. All the questions about not being a supporter of war crimes makes me wonder how some dubious people have got in ( as fugees i suppose?)
    Britain must control it’s entry points and screen all incomers.
    And vote ‘leave’ the EU, of course.

    • boiledcabbage

      War crimes – how is it that thousands have been allowed to return from Syria? We definately do not want those people caring for elderly British, who might be Christian….

  • grimm

    The results of Darymple’s though experiment in the second to last paragraph sounds as though it was conducted with the kind of people more likely to be employers rather than workers themselves.

    I have worked with quite a few of the “hard working Poles” of journalistic legend (and with other East Europeans) and I have never found them to be noticeably more hard working than the British. Perhaps the people who responded to Darymples question had in mind those well bred and educated immigrants who are prepared to take low paid, low skill jobs in this country. To mentally set them alongside the middle-class image of a stroppy British worker is an unfair comparison.

  • kitten

    “If you want to go to a really bad large hotel in Britain, find one in which the staff are British.”

    What a repulsive, hatefully prejudiced attitude you have to us Dalrymple.

    Has it ever occurred to you that maybe you don’t get the best service because your overtly racist attitude doesn’t bring out the warm customer service you demand?

    Your stinking, sneering attitude is the exact same one that destroys young British people’s confidence and work opportunities.

    Horrible and hateful.

  • Augustus

    There’s an idealistic notion hidden In this article, namely that everyone is a citizen of the world, and therefore there should be a limitless solidarity with everyone whoever they may be. But everyone does not feel a limitless solidarity with everyone else, and that’s perfectly understandable.

    “Hierocles (the Stoic Greek philosopher) describes individuals as consisting of a series of circles: the first circle is the human mind, next comes the immediate family, followed by the extended family, and then the local community. Next comes the community of neighbouring towns, followed by your country, and finally the entire human race.”

    So a Yorkshireman, in England feels a Northerner, in France he feel an Englishman, in the United States he’s a European and in Japan a Westerner. Solidarity is not a limitless concept, and identity is not based just on the fact that we are all people. It may be commendable to want to broaden the boundaries of solidarity, but it won’t just be achieved with the argument ‘we’re all human.’

  • cerius lee

    Its a scandal that we can’t train and employ or own workforce to do these jobs…oh wait we can but it’s not economically viable for them to do it. People such as the author don’t value their family enough to pay others a living wage so take advantage of those willing to come (often illegally) from a poorer climate…perhaps if you can’t afford to pay you may consider actually looking after your own family!

    • Daffy Duck

      Exactly. When the Tories boast about how many jobs they have created. They never tally up with the reduced unemployment numbers. The left, Labour and the Trade unions, could hammer the Tories week in week out, and IMO win a lot of public and media support. Not a peep.

      The fact is, no one gives a F about the unemployed.

    • Mary Ann

      And what about people who do not have children, not always through choice.

  • Dukeofplazatoro

    Theodore Dalrymple has been writing the same article over and over again for years. Basically it is:

    1. The modern day British are uncouth / uncultured / snobbish / idle/ feckless / ugly / fat / drunken / drugged up / useless / other pejorative (delete as appropriate);

    2. In my day they were not (oh really?) and I am one of the last vestiges of sanity;

    3. Other cultures or countries (today it is Haiti, Cabo Verde, Mauritius and Poland) are superior;

    Usually he brings in his time as a prison doctor in to give examples. Admittedly he may have encountered some of the less fortunate members of society during his work, but that would apply at prisons anywhere in the world and not just in Britain. Today it is his mother in Paris. I hope she gave permission to be taken in vain.

    I do not believe that the situation is quite as simple as he would have us believe:

    – Yes it is true that we have a lot of Eastern Europeans performing unskilled work, while at the same time we have a lot of unemployed British citizens. That is not necessarily because the British unemployed are drunk, feckless etc, but because they are out-competed. The Pole making the application well be over-qualified for unskilled labour, and may speak nice English. He may also have a better attitude as, being in a foreign country, he will be more afraid of the consequences of losing his job, especially if he does not qualify for benefits and has rent to pay. He will almost certainly be more mobile. Personally I would prefer to have a British barman pull my pints or serve me pasties, but in London at least, finding a hotel or catering establishment with one single British member of staff serving customers is an event, I would like to intrigued where Theodore Dalrymple’s large hotel where the staff are British is, maybe up in the Scottish Highlands somewhere.

    – Then, to keep “net immigration” down, because we are obliged to take in anyone who wants to come from the EU, we over-restrict non EU immigrants. So the price of all those Polish pasty makers are the Indians and Chinese with skills who we turn down, not to mention nursing staff from Haiti, Mauritius and Cabo Verde as this sector seems to have been commandeered by the Hungarians. So silicon valley gets the Indian programmers and we get Romanian flower pickers.

    – Despite the depiction of us poor benighted natives as being overweight, drunk and useless, I would argue that we have been very tolerant. We have put up with huge changes in society. We have had incidents, but we have not had race riots, and we seem to have accommodated all those who wish to arrive and work.

    So it is not so simple. I would add too that we do not need to be told we are uncultured snobs by the likes of Theodore Dalrymple. In fact I would argue the reverse. By making all these patronising generalisations, he is demonstrating himself to be no less of a snob – sin nobilitas certainly.

  • Peter Ratcliff

    The hypothetical survey is interesting but also shows a bias. The British worker is a known quantity and easily rejected in the mind whereas we get many of the brightest and best people from other countries coming to Britain. The reality when employed may be very different.

    The immigrant may possess a superficial politeness, arriving in Britain “on his best behaviour” as he needs all the encouragement and support he can get to blend into our society.

    The British, on the other hand, should have greater understanding as they know the English language more deeply. There are many examples of workers in simple jobs who are British and are very good. Some British workers may have grown bitter through taking abuse from employers and customers. They have also been indoctrinated with political correctness that distracts them from their job.

    Give me a true honest Christian who worked, not as a man pleaser but “unto the Lord”, even when the boss is not watching, and I would employ him rather than others, regardless of what country he was from. Although the Roman Catholic Church is far from Bible believing, there is still a reverence toward God of some sort and a desire to obey God’s commandments such as “Thou shalt not steal” and “Thou shalt not bear false witness”, i.e. don’t lie” So we may well prefer a Polish Roman Catholic, rather than a British atheist. I think this may be what lies behind the imaginary survey. Is the person honest?

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