Obama and Genocide

dearieme

I take it that Congress has accepted that the treatment of the Injuns constituted genocide?

ndm

Seems a good time to hype Ararat - the great Atom Egoyan's film about the Armenian Genocide.

HAYDAT

If Obama retracts from his pledge to properly recognize the Genocide of Armenians, it will be his first step to defame. I cannot believe that he will go that low to conceive the truth.

big bob

you're joking surely ndm. that film's terrible.

Alf Tupper

The Armenian Genocide: just one more example of the benevolence of the religion of peace.

peter

Alf - Im not sure if the genocide was on religious grounds, and anway, you want to talk history, how about Venice's ransacking of Constantinople? So leave religion out of it.

This is about politics. Plain and simple.

Most modern Turks accept and deal with it, especially the young.

America must be the land of the brave. Only if the US recognises it will the rest of the Turks be made to face up to it once and for all.

Ultimately, its in Turkey's long term interests to face up to realities.

Just as it has been in South Africa's, and will one day be in Israel's.

Alf Tupper

peter.

You might not be sure, but the people who perpetrated it had religion very much in mind.

You seem to be ranging a little in your response which is always liable to fail in the constrained form in which we exchange. I would just comment on the fact though, that were there still a place called Constantinople, and had it not been 'ransacked' to accommodate its present inhabitants, then your tangential point might have more - or even some - force.

W.B. Harris

President Obama is a down right liar and he has shown it over and over again within his first 100 days in office. He believes in abortion; wants research to cure sickness – which after billions of dollars haven’t been achieved yet by science through embryo experimentation by killing the fetish; wants a socialist state at the price of all who worked to advance the pursuit of freedom - life and liberty.

He has turned his back to those who helped elect him and he says one thing and evades the due process of the law and all that is moral. He is completely out of control who believes all the toys are his and nobody elses.

No wonder people are beginning not to trust him and all his henchmen – most of whom have a position in his government structure, but are not worthy. He has his goals and hell will destroy the U.S. if his wishes are accomplished.

It may be too late for Obama, as it seems he sold his soul to the devil for what he wants. Only prayer can unseal his fact at the Day of Judgment.

People would be better off if they don’t listen to him, realize that he constantly lies, wants a socialist/communistic U.S. at all cost to others, plays the fiddle to soothe his conscience. Fortunately or is it unfortunately he isn’t as smart or wise as he thinks he is. – there’ll be a country, a system or philosophy that will defeat him in the game of deceit –

No one wins trying to outfox the devil.

ndm

W.B Harris' contribution reads as if it was taken from an Al Qaeda training manual and translated into English using < a href="http://babelfish.yahoo.com/">babblefish.

Ronnie

ndm, I am astonished that you can make head or tail of it.

The only passage that I could understand is where Obama is going to 'kill the fetish', and that was a stretch.

Ronnie

dearieme, I think you'll find that the, 'injuns', were obstructing ligitimate western socio/economic development and obdurately trying to prevent the creation of the greatest country the world has ever seen.

You have introduced an interesting point in a similar context to the question of who has the original or most credible claim to the Holy Land.

Ann...?

ally

Actually ndm, I thought Mr Harris was reading a transcript of Rush Limbaugh's show.

GaryO

Europeans desperately want Turkey to stay secular so as to ease its membership into the EU. The US wants its help in improving relationship with countries like Syria and Iran. It is seen as a vital bridge between the West and the wider Islamic world. Obama himself is thought to pay them a visit in April to make his much anticipated speech to the muslim world.

Under these circumstances, a small matter of genocide cannot be allowed to intrude, surely!

Ilyas Botas

Mr. Massie does not seem to have a grasp of the meaning of realpolitik.

Realpolitik is the ethnic pandering of politician whores in order to garner votes and money. The powerful and odious Armenian lobby in the U.S., with its deep pockets, bribes and/or uses intimidation tactics in order to get themselves an "Armenian genocide resolution." The spineless and opportunistic politicians/parasites give the Armenian slicks what they demand. Now, THAT, is REALPOLITIK, Mr. Massie.

The politician does not care a rat's ass about whether the massive armed uprising and treacherous high treason by the Armenians of the Ottoman Empire resulted in genocide or not. The politician/prostitute salivates at the thought of Armenian money and votes. Now, THAT, is REALPOLITIK, Mr. Massie.

But don't take my word for it. Just ask yourself a simple, common-sense question: Why is there not pending an "Armenian Resolution" in the parliaments of Japan, India, Indonesia, Pakistan, China, Taiwan, Korea?

Could it be, could it possibly be that in those countries there are not enough Armenian slicks to bribe and/or threaten the politicians? We know that these hate-mongering Armenian thugs have a great deal of clout, but apparently, even their deep pockets and their Machiavellian machination skills have limitations that cannot reach those above-mentioned countries. There is a God after all.

Finally, sir, since you seem so certain about an Armenian "genocide," you must be an expert on this subject. As an expert, perhaps you will be kind enough to tell us the number of Turks, Kurds, Jews, Muslims in the ottoman Empire that were slaughtered by savage Armenian goon squads before, during, and after the year 1915.

Here's a hint for you : Osama bin Laden and his crew are Mickey Mouse operators compared to the Armenian terrorists of that era.

victor

Illyas Botas,

May I suggest you stay off the drugs - you'll live longer or just make more sense - in any case keep your racism to yourself.

Rich

Alex Massie,

This part of your opinion is incorrect. Former President Ronald Reagan (when in Office) described the Armenian Genocide as a genocide.

"all Presidential candidates decry the Armenian genocide on the campaign trail and the successful ones always welsh on calling it that once they are in power."

Rich

Ilyas Botas, get a grip, I could see how your cherished Turkish Government you support in genocide denial were/are so violent against humanity.

yonason

I can quite understand why Ilyas Botas is upset. I would be too if the people accusing me of "genocide" had killed 2.5 million of my people in order to ethnically cleanse their population. www.cs.utah.edu/~kagano/ermeni.htm

And it seems odd to me that the Turks, who accepted the Jews who were thrown out of Spain and Portugal and who also saved thousands of Jews from the Nazis, would act so badly to another minority without some cause. Yes, there were expulsions and massacres of Armenians by Turks, but it was those who rebelled. The rest, including Dadrian's ancestors who lived comfortably among the Turks, were unaffected.

If there was no intent to destroy the whole people [an absolute requirement, according to international law on genocide], then it was NOT genocide. Since no proof exists for that, then it's pretty clear you can't legitimately call it "genocide." ...at least, not if you are honest.

yonason

Here's a good reference.

Note that Armenian's even fought with Nazis. Turks did not. Hardly gives them any credibility when they charge that Turks committed "genocide."

Linda

Ilias Botas, my Armenian great-grandfather was an accomplished attorney in Turkey who even saved the lives of a number of Turks during his practice by freeing them from the hangman's noose. I am sure that even someone as biased as you would agree that he was not committing "high treason" against the Turkish state. And yet during the 1915 Genocide, yes, Genocide, he and his family, too, were deported into the Syrian desert to die of disease and starvation simply because they were Armenians.

Although he himself perished, his son, my grandfather, who was around 8 at the time, survived by eating grass and whatever edible scraps he managed to find in the desert. His brother lost his sanity, as did the Armenian composer Komitas, due to the Turkish atrocities he witnessed.

Now if you think that I have to threaten or bribe politicians to cause them to stand up for the truth of the Genocide, you are sorely mistaken (Oh, and by the way, I am a researcher and writer, and not a "thug," as you characterize me). All I have to do is to tell them very calmly the story of my family (or a write a book about my grandparents' experiences in 1915). And, there are thousands upon thousands of people like me who refuse to forget what happened to their families, many of whose survivor relatives I have interviewed myself (UCLA has hundreds of taped testimonies of Armenian Genocide survivors).

If the descendants of the Genocide survivors choose to vote for people who will recognize the Genocide, and donate to their campaigns, that's entirely their right in a democratic society and shouldn't be distorted as "hate-mongering" or "bribing."

And yes, there is a God, and that's why many nations have already recognized the Genocide and thousands of Turks have signed their names to a web document apologizing to the Armenians for what their parents/grandparents went through in 1915 (before their government managed to "very democratically" shut down the website).

And the reason the Armenian "thugs" have the "clout" they have is because they are mostly very hard-working/educated members of society (and they were the same in Turkey before they were annihilated) who are recognized for their contributions and hard work. Those who are REALLY bribed are the pro-Turkish "historians" who take money from the Turkish government to establish Turkish University chairs and thus distort historical truth more easily.

And, by the way, if you truly think that Osama bin Laden and his crew are Mickey Mouse operators compared to the "Armenian Terrorists" of that era, I truly wish that by some "magic" you could back to the Turkey of 1915 as an Armenian. Contrary to popular belief, Ilyas, your ignorance, or ignorance in general, is not bliss. I guarantee that you would prefer death to the hell your life was made to be by the Turkish rulers of the time. From having their women kidnapped, raped regularly or made to become Turkish harem women, to being falsely accused and mercilessly tortured over and over, to being regularly massacred, Armenians bore the unbearable from their Turkish "bosses" even before 1915.

My grandmother's family, very far from being "rebels," escaped the Adana massacre of 1909, during which 30,000 innocent Armenians perished, by a sheer miracle. But, of course, to revisionists like you, who know and understand very little about the events of 1915, the Turks are angels. And, of course, it was an "angel" like you describe who gunned down the Turkish-Armenian journalist Hrant Dink for having the courage to talk about the Genocide only 2 years ago.

I don't know if you're Turkish and I don't care, but if I were you I would think twice before shamelessly revictimizing people who (or whose families) have gone through hell on earth and survived to tell their stories to the world.

And, Yonason, first of all, you would rebel, too, if you were treated the way the Armenians were treated by the Turks over and over. And, annihiliating a whole nation, nearly 2 million men, women and children, for the perceived "rebellion" of a few does not bespeak of Turkish "benevolence." And, by the way, the intent has to be there to destroy a nation in whole, OR IN PART, for it to qualify as Genocide. In case of the Armenians, the Turks managed to destroy the overwhelming majority of the Armenian nation who lived in Turkey (historic Armenia) in 1915. And what the Young Turks failed to accomplish, Kemal Ataturk did, by additional massacres of those Armenians who had returned to Turkey after the Genocide.

I sincerely hope that both of you whom I have addressed will stop your ignorance and bias regarding this issue and at least try to educate yourselves minimally by reading the letter of the International Association of Genocide Scholars to Erdogan which unequivocally states that what happened to the Armenians in 1915 was Genocide: Here's the link to the letter: yourhttp://www.genocidewatch.org/TurkishPMIAGSOpenLetterreArmenia6-13-05.htm.

Ilyas Botas

Dear Linda,

You sound more like an advocate than a "researcher." In any event, you have done a very sloppy job of researching. Had you done a more complete(and more competent) research, you would have interviewed Turkish grandmothers as well. Try it. You might be surprised that Turkish grandmothers tell remarkably similar stories to those told by your Armenian grandmothers.

Turkish grandmothers tell of inhuman atrocities committed by Armenian cutthroats. Taking advantage of the nation's dire straits, these murderous, treasonous Armenian goons set upon their Turkish and Kurdish neighbors with whom they had lived side by side for a thousand years. The savage Armenian Dashnak gangs massacred defenseless villagers - old people, women, children, infants. There were no young Turkish men to defend the villages, because they were all away at half dozen war fronts fighting invading foreign armies with whom the treacherous Armenians collaborated. Yes, Linda, I, too, have many "my grandma told me stories".

Your "research" is incomplete and incompetent. You would get a failing grade in my class. You mention the murder of one Turkish Armenian, Hrant Dink. But not a peep from you about the murders of dozens of Turkish diplomats by the Armenian terror group, ASALA, in the 1970s, 1980s and 1990s. Sister, what kind of "researcher" are you, anyway?

Among the Armenian terrorists' victims were bystanders, including Americans, Canadians and French. The name, Orhan Gunduz ring a bell? He was a U.S. citizen and honorary Turkish consul in Boston. Indeed he was an honorable, decent man. He was gunned down by Armenian terrorists in 1982. What was his crime, Linda? Sister, you have done a very shoddy job of "research." You would get an F in my class.

The killers of Hrant Dink have been arrested and are imprisoned. Hundreds of thousands of Turkish people poured into the streets to protest his murder. I agree with the protests.

Now, Linda, let's do some proper "research" and comparison. In 1983, Varadjian Garabidjian, an Armenian terrorist bombed the Turkish Airlines counter at Orly Airport, killing 7 and injuring 63. What does your extensive "research" show you, Linda? My research shows me that this animal terrorist was given an early release from prison by the spineless French and this murdering terrorist of yours received a hero's welcome in your Armenia, in addition to receiving a medal and a hefty pension. You still want to preach to us "holier than thou"? You are indeed a poor "researcher," Linda.

A bit of more research would have taught you that there are more commonalities than "my grandma told me" stories. For instance, the Turkish side says that it is the Armenian slicks who are the revisionists and falsifiers of history. Go figure.

The Turkish accounts seem far more honest and credible than the tales told by Armenians, simply by the virtue of the fact that Turkish archives are open wide for all to see and study. Why aren't the Armenian archives open, Linda? What are they hiding? When is Yerevan going to open its archives? When is the Armenian High Priest of Beirut going to open his archives? When is Paris going to open its archives? When is the Armenian Revolutionary Federation of America going to open its archives? What are your Armenian "angels" hiding, Linda?

It takes an immense amount of chutzpah for the Armenians to decry the destruction of an "historic Armenia" even as they sit in Glendale, Fresno and Watertown. If you had done a more thorough research, Linda, you would have learned that the land in which you sit now was stolen by your ilk from the Native Americans. Yes, Linda, your ilk stole, usurped and settled these "historic lands" of the Native Americans while genociding them in the process. Your sanctimonious, holier-than-thou protestations ring hollow and odiously hypocritical until you pack your bags, get off the stolen land and give it back to its rightful owners, the Native Americans.

Finally, Linda, everyone outside of the delusional, idee fixe, hate-brainwashed bordering on sociopathy world of hate-spewing Armenians regard Prof. Bernard Lewis of Princeton University to be an eminent scholar of the first order. Prof. Lewis does not seem to agree with the Armenian revisionist view of history. Unlike your claims of a "few" Armenian rebels, it seems that the research of Bernard Lewis shows that there was a "massive armed uprising" by the Armenians. And when treason occurs during wartime, it is called "high treason" in anybody's book.

The long and short of it is the Armenians of the Ottoman Empire made a land-grab in 1915. They attempted ethnic-cleansing in the style of Milosevic. The Armenians, in order to carve out an ethnically pure Armenian state from Ottoman provinces in which the Armenian population did not exceed 18%, massacred Turkish people, Kurdish people, Jewish people, Muslim people. In the end, Armenians lost. Turks won. Ever since, the slick Armenian propaganda machine has been trying to hoodwink the world into believing a genocide of the Armenians took place.NUTS!

The Armenians fired the first shot. They drew first blood. You cannot fire a bullet at me and then whine and bellyache that I replied with a volley of shots. Once you fire that gun at me, you forfeit your life. That, my dear, is the natural law. If you don't want to die, then don't make an attempt at my life.

Linda, here's one more "research" topic for you to mull over. Go ahead and research the excellent Nazi and Armenian collaboration. The Armenian "general" Dro (Dro the Butcher", after escaping justice for the massacres of thousands of Turkish people, showed up in Nazi Germany. He formed the twenty thousand-strong ARMENIAN BRIGADE and put it at the service of his Nazi "bosses." The Nazis tasked these Armenians with hunting down and exterminating Jews in German-occupied lands in WWII. These Armenian death squads accomplished their assigned task with admirable and typical "Armenian hard work" and efficiency, thereby making their Nazi bosses proud. Let us know what your research turns up.

Linda

Ilyas Botas,

Since your last post is nothing but a regurgitation of hackneyed Turkish propaganda, I won’t bother to address it in much detail. First of all, Ilyas, in your zeal to attack me you failed to notice that I didn’t say that I was a researcher of the Armenian Genocide. I will say this, however, that I will gladly interview Turkish grandmothers when Turkey decriminalizes the assertion of the Armenian Genocide and the Turkish people aren’t dragged in front of courts per Article 301 of the Turkish criminal code for “insulting Turkishness,” if they’re not assassinated by Turkish nationalists first, that is.

And as far as someone like you giving me a failing grade in research, your assertion “If you had done a more thorough research, Linda, you would have learned that the land in which I sit now was stolen by your ilk from the Native Americans. Yes, Linda, your ilk stole, usurped and settled these 'historic lands' of the Native Americans while genociding them in the process” speaks as to your own qualifications to comment on this issue. This is such “stellar” research by you or your precious Prof. Bernard Lewis of Princeton University that no one in their right mind would be able to credibly contradict it, right? Yes, it was the Armenians of Glendale who genocided the Native Americans, just as they apparently genocided the poor, poor, truly angelic Turks, who all but disappeared from Anatolia. Yes, Ilyas, in your world this is true, but in the real world, historians who don’t receive hefty compensation from the Turkish government have decided who were the angels and who were the genocidal maniacs.

Try addressing the International Association of Genocide Scholars if you really have truth on your side. And here’s a quote from their letter addressed to Erdogan which I had sourced in my earlier post. “We are writing you this open letter in response to your call for an “impartial study by historians” concerning the fate of the Armenian people in the Ottoman Empire during World War I.

We represent the major body of scholars who study genocide in North America and Europe. We are concerned that in calling for an impartial study of the Armenian Genocide you may not be fully aware of the extent of the scholarly and intellectual record on the Armenian Genocide and how this event conforms to the definition of the United Nations Genocide Convention. We want to underscore that it is not just Armenians who are affirming the Armenian Genocide but it is the overwhelming opinion of scholars who study genocide: hundreds of independent scholars, who have no affiliations with governments, and whose work spans many countries and nationalities and the course of decades." When you can credibly contradict the genocide scholars, that’s when anyone with an ounce of brain will be able to tell if you’re in any position to comment on this issue at all...

Linda

Ilyas,

And since a “brilliant” research professional like you has already meticulously researched the “excellent” Armenian and Nazi collaboration, there is nothing left for me to do but to take the results of your own research on this topic as “gospel truth,” since, after all, someone as objective and unbiased as you would never, ever, think of falsifying information to discredit Armenians, now, would he? But, please answer only one question for me if you may: why did a “notorious” Nazi collaborator like Drastamat Kanayan die peacefully in the US in 1954 instead of being prosecuted in Nuremberg with the rest of the most important captured leaders of Nazis for his role in Holocaust of the Jews?

Ilyas Botas

Dear Linda,

Evasion does not become you. "I won't bother to address it in detail" is an evasion.Please, do bother and answer in detail.

Of course the present-day Armenians of Glendale are not the ones who exterminated the American Indians and stole the lands of the Indians - just as the present-day Turks are not the ones who did harm to Armenians or stole lands. But if you and Mark Geragos and the rest of the Armenian community of America can demand Mt. Ararat from Turkey, cannot the Amerindians demand their stolen lands back from you and Geragos the Gorgeous? When will you and the rest of the Armenian usurpers pack your bags and hand over the stolen lands back to the rightful owners, namely, the Native Americans? Sorry, Linda, but you reek of hypocrisy. If we were to follow the logic of you and Geragos, then all of you Armenians should leave Glendale, Fresno, Watertown, Providence and Pawtucket. Those are lands stolen from Native Americans. Give it back. Does not matter if your present-day Armenians did the actual stealing. Under U.S. law, if a property is deemed to be stolen, it must be returned to the rightful owner. So when do you and Geragos plan to leave and return the stolen goods? If Turks must give Mt. Ararat to Armenia, why must not the Armenians give Glendale back to the Native Americans? Sauce for gander, sauce for goose. Ever heard of that concept?

The Nazi Armenian criminal Dro the Butcher died peacefully in the U.S. in 1954 as many other Nazi criminals died peacefully in the U.S.. The reason is no mystery. 1954 was early after the war. Today, we are still prosecuting Nazi criminals in the U.S.. Does the name John Demjanuk ring a bell? He is 90 years old; he resides in Ohio. He is about to be deported to Germany to face charges of crimes against humanity for his role as a guard at a concentration camp. Justice delayed, but justice nonetheless. Your Armenian Nazi, Drastamat Kanayan, lucked out by dying "peacefully" and EARLY in 1954, just as Josef Mengele died without facing justice. Plus, Linda, you must take into consideration the power and influence and deep pockets of the slick Armenian lobby in the U.S..

Just one last note, Linda, I find it curious that Hrant Dink has become a cause celebre of the hate-mongering diaspora Armenians. Before his murder, Hrant was scorned, despised and vilified by the same diaspora Armenians. Hrant's big crime was that he did not hate the Tukish people enough to suit the taste of the Armenian diaspora. So how comes it that Hrant is portrayed as an Armenian martyr by your ilk now? Could it be blatant, lowlife, bottom-feeding opportunism on the part of the Armenian lobby? I think it is.

Linda

Ilyas,

Against my better judgement I will answer you one last time before I ignore you completely because that's what your inanities deserve. Get your facts straight. Although I am sure that this is a humongous revelation for you, but it's not the Armenians of yesteryear who "stole" the land from the Native Americans, either. Whoever stole their land should return it to them, not the Armenians. You might venture a guess as to who that was, but in all likelihood you’ll be wrong, just as you’re wrong in most of your other assertion.

“Sauce for gander, sauce for goose. Ever heard of that concept?” by Ilyas. No, Ilyas, you’re the only one who’s ever heard of that concept. In fact, you’re probably the one who invented it in the first place...

Before you accuse me of evasion, first try to disprove the International Association of Genocide Scholars. When you can disprove their letter in detail, that’s when I’ll address your “brilliance” in detail. I don’t have the time to waste nor the inclination to do so to answer your inanities. In the meantime, if you want your “points” disproved fully and in great detail, visit the Armenian National Institute site (I am sure someone of your great intellectual capabilities can find their site by googling their name). Also, if I were you, I wouldn’t accuse anyone of hypocrisy before making sure that I wasn’t a hypocrite myself.

Ilyas, Dro was arrested by the Americans after WWII and then released. If he was such notorious Nazi, why was he released and not brought to trial like the rest of them? Trying to use Dro to discredit Armenians is a futile attempt. Even if he was a worse Nazi then Hitler himself, it wouldn’t change the fact that there was a genocide against the peaceful Armenian population in Turkey in 1915 and that the methods used by the Young Turks were refined and used by the Nazis against the Jews in WWII.

Regarding Hrant Dink, he might have been scorned, despised and vilified by the diaspora Armenians, but it wasn’t the diasporans who murdered him. He was murdered in cold blood by the Turkish Nationalists, you know, those same people who aren’t even capable of hurting a fly. We have the Turks to thank for making Dink the cause celebre of the diaspora. If they didn’t want Dink to become a cause celebre, they shouldn’t have murdered him.

Before accusing the Armenians of hatred, make sure that you’re free of it (the completely blind kind) yourself.

Good-bye, Ilyas. I wish I could say that this little conversation between you and me has either illuminated me about ANY issue whatsoever or provided me any intellectual enjoyment, but it hasn’t. As I mentioned earlier, I will ignore all your posts from now on for obvious reasons. I would suggest that you channel your venom and hatred where it might do some good–towards those who commit genocide today (in Sudan) or those who deny genocides committed in the past, for example. But oh, wait, I forgot, you yourself are one of the latter, no?

Linda

Ilyas,

Against my better judgement I will answer you one last time before I ignore you completely because that's what your inanities deserve. Get your facts straight. Although I am sure that this is a humongous revelation for you, but it's not the Armenians of yesteryear who "stole" the land from the Native Americans, either. Whoever stole their land should return it to them, not the Armenians. You might venture a guess as to who that was, but in all likelihood you’ll be wrong, just as you’re wrong in most of your other assertion.

“Sauce for gander, sauce for goose. Ever heard of that concept?” by Ilyas. No, Ilyas, you’re the only one who’s ever heard of that concept. In fact, you’re probably the one who invented it in the first place...
Before you accuse me of evasion, first try to disprove the International Association of Genocide Scholars. When you can disprove their letter in detail, that’s when I’ll address your “brilliance” in detail. I don’t have the time to waste nor the inclination to do so to answer your inanities. In the meantime, if you want your “points” disproved fully and in great detail, visit the Armenian National Institute site (I am sure someone of your great intellectual capabilities can find their site by googling their name). Also, if I were you, I wouldn’t accuse anyone of hypocrisy before making sure that I wasn’t a hypocrite myself.

Ilyas, Dro was arrested by the Americans after WWII and then released. If he was such notorious Nazi, why was he released and not brought to trial like the rest of them? Trying to use Dro to discredit Armenians is a futile attempt. Even if he was a worse Nazi then Hitler himself, it wouldn’t change the fact that there was a genocide against the peaceful Armenian population in Turkey in 1915 and that the methods used by the Young Turks were refined and used by the Nazis against the Jews in WWII.

Regarding Hrant Dink, he might have been scorned, despised and vilified by the diaspora Armenians, but it wasn’t the diasporans who murdered him. He was murdered in cold blood by the Turkish Nationalists, you know, those same people who aren’t even capable of hurting a fly. We have the Turks to thank for making Dink the cause celebre of the diaspora. If they didn’t want Dink to become a cause celebre, they shouldn’t have murdered him.

Before accusing the Armenians of hatred, make sure that you’re free of it (the completely blind kind) yourself.

Good-bye, Ilyas. I wish I could say that this little conversation between you and me has either illuminated me about ANY issue whatsoever or provided me any intellectual enjoyment, but it hasn’t. As I mentioned earlier, I will ignore all your posts from now on for obvious reasons. I would have suggested that you channel your venom and hatred where it might do some good–towards those who commit genocide today (in Sudan) or those who deny genocides committed in the past, for example. But, oh, wait, I forgot, you yourself are one of the latter, no?

ilyas botas

Buh-bye, Linda. Nice knowing you. When the brain-washed, hate-filled Armenian zealot cannot answer simple questions, the reaction is the same as the one you have shown. The fact remains that you sit on stolen lands of the Native Americans. You cannot decry the loss of "historic lands" of Armenians as you sit on the stolen "historic lands" of Native Americans. Even as you seek empathy for your Armenian losses, you profit from stolen goods and from that mother of all genocides - that of the native peoples of the Americas. And how do you feel about the European conquerors, colonizers and settlers giving back Australia and New Zealand to the rightful owners, the Aborigines? How about the Finns giving back the land they stole from the Sami people? How about the 12 million ethnic Germans who were ousted from their homes in central Europe at the end of WWII? Half million of them were butchered. Their lands in Poland and the other countries that abut Germany were taken from them. Some of the victims are still alive today. How about giving them back their lands? How do you feel about Silvio Berlusconi and Alessandra Mussolini demanding the return of the original borders of the Roman Empire? Don't you think that they have as much right to their "ancestral lands" as you have to your "historic lands" of Armenia? Oh, wait, the best is yet to come. Today, there are some two dozen nations sitting on the former provinces of the Ottoman Empire. So using your logic, today's Turkish people. the descendants of the Ottomans, should be able to demand the return of their old provinces. If I were a Turk of today, I would reject the return of the Balkan countries, but I would definitely demand the return of the oil-rich Ottoman provinces of Sauidia, Kuwait, Iraq, Algeria and Libya.

What is sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander, Linda. The life or land of the Armenian is no more valuable than the life and land of the American Indian. Contrary to what the priest taught you in Armenian schools, Armenians are not God's gift to humanity. The lives of the Azeri people that your Armenians snuffed out just 16 years ago in occupying 20% of the land of Azerbaijan, are just as valuable as the lives of Armenians.

At long last, have some decency. Leave the memory of Hrant Dink alone. He was a son of the Turkish nation. He was not a member of your Armenian hate club.

Buh-bye, Linda.

Sick of Bias

When the author of this article, Alex Massie, writes of a "...reluctance to call the Armenian genocide what it is and was: genocide," I wonder if he is aware how much he is ruining his credibility. How does he know these events comprised a genocide? Only because everyone has come to believe it, thanks to a relentless propaganda campaign taking place for many years in the West, not known for its friendliness to Turks. Has he conducted any independent research? Evidently none. Does he know how immoral it is to proclaim destructive accusatory conclusions without any real evidence? He must; so why is he engaging in such a miserable practice when he would be the first to feel repelled, if someone were to accuse him of a crime, without evidence?

Why are people so forgetful of their honor? We can see examples in the thread above. Someone steps in to challenge these people's belief systems. He presents verifiable facts and logic. He tells us something that's new, the vast systematic extermination campaign conducted by Armenians. Of course, dishonest Armenian propaganda, the perspective heard almost exclusively, is going to make sure to leave this part out. (Can't claim cherished victimhood if one behaves as mass murdering criminals.) And all of the ignorant genocide-affirming fools who write in here, as with the author, Alex Massie, have only been exposed to hateful Armenian propaganda.

So what do these people do upon hearing that Armenians have systematically exterminated hundreds of thousands of innocents, while in possession of Ottoman territory with their Russian, and later, French, allies?

Victor wrote: "Illyas Botas, May I suggest you stay off the drugs."

Rich's reaction: "Ilyas Botas, get a grip, I could see how your cherished Turkish Government you support in genocide denial were/are so violent against humanity."

(Naturally, it was this very Turkish government that overthrew the Ottoman system, but to Rich they are one and the same. In Rich's mind, today's Turkish government is guilty of alleged genocidal crimes committed nearly a century ago.)

Presumably, Victor and Rich are not Armenians. They should be capable of independent thought. They should value nothing but the truth. They should regard Turkish lives as no less valuable than Armenian ones. They are well aware not doing so would be terribly racist; they should be the first to ask whether Armenians indeed killed Turks in far greater numbers, verified by the Armenians' own friends, reports by Russian officers, serving as true firsthand witnesses, along with the U.S. team of Niles and Sutherland, as well as secret Ottoman reports.

But what do they wind up doing? React rudely, with no consideration as to whether claims that go against their belief systems might be true. As with Author Alex Massie, no desire whatsoever to look into the matter more seriously and finally with some objectivity.

And these are probably fair and intelligent people in their other walks of life.

Then there is the "Armenian" reaction. Of course, this case is beyond hope. Linda is so troubled by easily verifiable facts, such as the case of the murderous Armenian terrorist (Garabidjian) that Mr. Bostas raises, Linda quickly submerges herself in denial, with the illogical response, "your last post is nothing but a regurgitation of hackneyed Turkish propaganda."

(How can it be propaganda if the facts can be confirmed through sources not wishing to protect the Turks?)

When pressed to validate her soul-feeding genocide, all poor Linda can resort to is point to the opinions of the genocide scholars. As if the word of the genocide scholar should be magical. No consideration as to whether these genocide scholars come from the field of history, and for the few who do, whether they respect the rules for honest history. No consideration as to whether these genocide scholars are more interested in pursuing their passionate genocide agenda, or the truth. Certainly few of these genocide scholars have conducted original research, instead relying on the massive propaganda of Armenians and their hired hands, such as Taner Akcam. The genocide scholar, in reality, is anything but what a scholar is supposed to be. And all poor Linda can do is point to the worthless opinions of these dishonest pretenders.

By now, there is more than enough easily obtainable evidence out there that shows what a disgusting invention this Armenian genocide claim is. The British, the first to wish to condemn the Turks, themselves could not find any evidence.in pursuit of their planned Nuremberg, the Malta Tribunal (1919-21). Nearly everything the propaganda machine presents today as evidence was rejected by the British themselves, including the 1919 mock trials by the postwar Ottoman government, and the U.S. archives. (The latter rejected for consisting of nothing but opinions, which is hearsay. Hearsay is not evidence.)

The evidence is there that most of the Armenians who died lost their lives of non-murderous reasons, as famine and disease, much like most of the nearly three million Ottoman Muslims who died, even the soldiers -- in good part because of the British naval blockade. (About a quarter, 150,000 of these Armenians, died of starvation in Armenia, after having accompanied the retreats of their Russian and French allies. These are also designated as genocide victims, much as their supposed killers were not even in the neighborhood.)

The Armenians who were massacred most likely numbered in the low tens, and not the hundreds of thousands. Their killers (mainly Kurdish and Arab tribes) acted independently, and the Ottoman government tried 1,600 for committing crimes against Armenians during the war, executing dozens. This in itself tells us what occurred cannot be a genocide.

In order to prove genocide, one must come up with evidence for "intent," tying in the participation of the government. None exists. It is very immoral to conclude a crime, particularly a great crime, without the evidence.

It wouldn't take very much for what appears to be otherwise fair people such as Alex Massie and Victor and Rich to take a little time and to investigate whether what they are now hearing could possibly be true. But they do not. Why is this?

It is because the propaganda is so deeply entrenched, people can't let go of their deep beliefs. It is because they just know TUrks had to be guilty, since everyone knows Turks are a naturally murderous people. (The cumulative effect of such vicious propaganda.) It is because some are ill at ease for going against the politics of genocide, lest they be accused of being a denier.

It is far better to brand an entire people as Nazis, even when there is no evidence whatsoever, than to be perceived as a hateful, neo-Nazi denier. But when these people act on such fears and/or prejudices, the irony is that they have come closer to the reality of the neo-Nazi than they could ever have imagined.
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Linda

Sick, you convinced me! You have liberated me and allowed me to finally cast aside my cherished shackles of victimhood that had bound me for so long!!! And I am no longer in denial about Garabidjian the terrorist. I now worship the Turks, burning incense to them daily, even hourly, my new gods...

And Sick, from now on I will not pay any attention to what the International Association of Genocide Scholars says, nor to what any reputable historian says, nor to the US Ambassador to Turkey at the time, Henry Morgenthau, nor to NY Times articles detailing the systematic annihilation of an entire nation, nor to European and American missionaries serving in Turkey then, nor to what I know from my own grandparents, nor to the number of Turkish scholars who categorize it as genocide (not just Akcam), nor to anyone else. No one!

Instead, I will read and take as gospel truth every word your lips uttered (or your unbiased fingers typed). You and you alone are the possessor of ALL truth, and YOUR truth is what everyone seriously interested in this subject should EVER consider. We will take it for granted that you have all authentic documentation necessary to prove that this "so-called" genocide is a sheer fabrication of a lobby and poor people like me, for it is evident to any reader of yours that you're no pretender, only a humble and erudite scholar of the events of 1915, and therefore your conclusions must be elevated above those of any other on planet Earth (or any other planet for that matter)!

Please disseminate your brilliant and very unbiased opinion as widely as you can. Most people just HAVE to see the light when they read what you wrote and come to the same conclusion I did!

I hope my noble INTENT on putting you on a pedestal and never, ever, taking you off is evident to you and everyone who reads this post. And I hope that I am no longer "poor" in your sight. Truly, Sick, it would mean so much to me if only you, YOU, could categorize me as "rich;" nothing else in my life would matter, if only your fingers could type the words "rich" and "Linda" right after one another. I no longer would be poor then, the poor, poor thing that I have been thus far!!!

Your humble servant,
'til right now when I read your post and finally saw the light so-very-poor Linda

TurkishLoveInLosAngeles

Exactly. Obama nor any future president will ever recognize this event because:
1. A million Ottoman Turks died as well, hence it cannot be called a "genocide" rather a war that Armenians are the sore losers.
2. Turkey is a HUGE ally to the US. Armenia doesn't have anything the US wants, and all the money they gave to every administration (Obama, Bush, Clinton, etc.) cannot buy off the President to get him to lie for you.

GO OBAMA! :-)

TurkLove

Hey, what about the Armenian-Azeri Genocide? What about all the Azeri's that died at the hands of Armenian terrorists?

How interesting that Armenians forget to mention that???

Larisa

Boytas, well said! I'm happy to see someone shedding some light on the Armenian web of lies that seem to show up once a year in April.
Thank you!

jda

Mr. Botas is a well known racist and contributor to Turkish Forum, an internet aggregation site whose major focus is denial of the Armenian, Assyrian and Pontian Genocide[s]. There, one can read the ravings not only of Senor Botas, but also those of an equally craven and cynical group, including the infamous race-baiter Ergun Kirlikovali, who has published things only Rosenberg, Goebbels and Nazim could stomach. By the way. Mr. Kirlikovali is the incoming President of the Assembly of Turkish American Associations, which will someday wonder why they elected this Turkish American Grand Kleagle to their leadership.

The cornerstone of the Botas-Kirlikovali school of regurgitation, is to assert that Turks and Armenians were somehow engaged in a "civil war". They demand in fact that all of the rest of us use the term "Armenian-Turkish conflict" in the place of "Armenian Genocide" or its weaker legal cousin, "Alleged Armenian Genocide". They claim that nomenclature other than their approved version is somehow racist, and damaging to the psyches of Turks everywhere.
Perhaps Dr. Phil will get to this once all the abusive spouses are dealt with.

The problem with the "civil war" thesis as it is known, is that nobody but nobody outside the Turkish lobby, and a single chubby demographer they cherish, thinks it is worth a damn. Note, please that even ethnic Turkish scholars deride the civil war thesis as a "travesty of history" which no historian "with a conscience can accept", Selim Derengel, 2000. Add: Yektan Turkyilmaz, Fikret Adanir, Engin Akarli, Taner Akcam [whom the Turkish crazies have hounded and threatened], Umit Ungor, Baskin Oran, Ftama Gocek, and more.

Even the Turks' newest best friend [retired] academic, Guenter Lewy, an Agnostic on the AG, endorses the Derengel conclusion in his 2006 book.

When hundreds of thousands of unarmed men are shot and bludgeoned outright by Ottoman state actors, leaving the women, elderly and children to be kidnappped, forcibly converted, harassed, starved, raped and killed, it is not civil war between belligerents. When the pattern of killing is the same throughout Anatolia, it is subject to a common and central plan, not spontaneous mob violence. When the killers are state actors, it is Genocide.

If the civil war or provocation defense held water, then few of the things we call Genocide would be; the victim group often stages raids upon the armed and unarmed members of te oppressor group, e.g. Darfur.

Armenians lost. They complete the charade by claiming that Armenians strted it all, so in effect the message is that the Armeienians got what was coming to them, plus it was simply an untidy period in Otoman history, and we're sorry the rest stops were not fully srocked.