Geert Wilders is Still a Bigot and Still No Kind of Hero

ndm

I love the way Wilders states in item 6 that: "We need a European First Amendment to strengthen free speech" which he then immediately disavows in item 7, item 8 and item 9. The man is an imbecile.

I suspect many of those who support Wilders would find themselves very comfortable with the BNP while standing in an anonymous voting booth.

Sam Armstrong

"the only way to save the western liberal tradition is to kill it"

It is not killing, it is discipline. There is no liberty without a restraining discipline. Wilders correctly assesses that our freedom is under threat because it has lost its discipline and cannot defent itself. A not inconsiderable proportion of the Dutch electorate keenly agrees.

Perhaps Mr. Massie could let us know what measures he thinks are effective in combatting radical Islamism? Or does he not believe there is a need for the free world to defend itself?

Pete, Scotland

Wow, spot on.

Don't see any violence encoureged.

Sounds like some good policies.

Rush-is-Right

I'm fine with most of that, especially 3,4,5,6 and 9.

dp damato

This post is straight out of liberalism 101. Claim - western civilization i.e. judeo christian civilization needs to be embraced and celebrated. Liberal answer - bigot. Claim - there are too many mullahs preaching jihad. Liberal answer - bigot. Claim - jews should not have to live in fear. They have been great contributors to western civilization. Liberal answer - heresy - you must embrace multiculturalism. Claim - the EU and human rights organizations are infringing upon the most important right - freedom of speech. Liberal answer - see Jacqui Smith. A wonderful open minded tolerant lady who recognizes the importance of protecting victim groups from hurt feelings. Instead of picking some good points about liberalism and some good points about conservatism, and then formulating a world view, I have a suggestion that will clear things up. Liberalism is pure rubbish all the time. Once that becomes your foundation everything begins to make sense.

Fred Smith

This is bigotry: “The Jews are destined to be persecuted, humiliated, and tortured forever, and it is a Muslim duty to see to it that they reap their due. No petty arguments must be allowed to divide us. Where Hitler failed, we must succeed.” (See: http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/026077.php)

Wilders is not asking for death or destruction. At worst, he is an alarmist. Your concern, I imagine, is that his kind of speech will encourage bigotry and injustice. I hope that the debate you are encouraging will reduce the risk of that.

Austin Barry

Sorry, Alex, but actually, I find, as a former Hampstead liberal, that Wilders' ten points are quite reasonable. And, come the next inevitable Islamist terrorist atrocity on our soil, so I suspect, amid the blood and shredded flesh, will an increasing number of others. These are, unhappily, difficult and dangerous times. It would be lovely to maintain our 1960's, Age of Aquarius views but 9/11 and 7/7 were our Altamont.

Jay

I'm sorry Geert Wilders doesn't want to see Saudi Britain, Al-Espanya, Francistan, and Germanraq on the map. You need to wake up, and throw that cultural relativism off the table.

Matthew Blott

Alex I think you forgot where you were when you posted this piece - hence the comments approving of Mr Wilders.

David

Hear, hear.

The man is repellent.

Forlornehope

Queen Elizabeth the first held that she had no window to look into a man's conscience. She rightly declined to introduce the kind of loyalty oaths used by her father - if you would not take it you got hanged, drawn and quartered; if you were a friend of the king, like Thomas More, you got your head cut off. I think we can at least retain her standards. Go back seventy years and you could simply substitute Jew for Muslim in this rant.

Oh, yes, a European "first ammendment" on free speech would be a very good thing. A stopped clock is right twice a day, after all!

Frank McGill

Geert Wilders was invited to air FITNA at Westminster by UKIP.
So we see your fear that you mention the British National Party.

Ed Bell

Wilders looks pretty much on the money to me. I don't see any interesting suggestions coming from Mr. Massie.

Conservative Cabbie

ndm

I noticed that too.

Linda Smith

Wilders' argument that we have a right to defend ourselves from Islam, a militant supremacist ideology, would carry more weight if he were to address the difference between Islam and "Jewish-Christian and humanism culture" (his term). Arguments couched along the lines of "I am right because my ideology is a religion, but yours is wrong because it isn't a religion" are logically false and serve to score an own goal.

The fundamental error in Wilder's argument is his basic assumption that there is a difference between religion and ideology ( "Stop pretending that Islam is a religion. Islam is a totalitarian ideology.")

All religions are ideology.

Gil

Mr. Massie, I find your claim that the most logical home for his vote would be the BNP, quite distasteful: Wilders claims that the Judeo-Christian heritage is the bedrock of Europe. The BNP are an antisemitic movement and are probably Holocaust deniers. The fact that, for tactical reasons, they don't mention the Jews as their primary enemy doesn't mean that they don't believe it, it's just not prudent for them right now.

Funnily enough in a discussion on the Guardian's CIF on the BNP, hardly anyone mentioned their antisemtism and commenters were more concerned with whether they were 'Right' or 'Left'.

I disagree with Wilders that Islam is not a religion. Islamism, however, should be fought with all forces a democracy can rail against it.

Sometimes people like Wilders are essential to preserve the freedoms that we take for granted because they serve to mop up the votes that would otherwise go to fascists. This safety valve should work in times of weak centre-left parties.

Baroness Thatcher's historic role was similar in 1979.

Read Jean-Francois Revel's book to understand 'how democracies perish'.

Ian C

You are over-reacting to some good points made by the man and some that are as over the top as your description of him as a bigot.

We all know the problem he is addressin. Although his list is in parts extreme and bureaucratic, there is no doubt that his high profile position on the matter is begiining to get attention and some following.

Rather than stand there and uncsonstructively shout 'bigot' at him, recognise that he has something to say about the appalling state of Islam and especially muslim populations in the west that are allowed special pleading when it comes to assimilating to their host countries.

It is a real problem and you have not added one jot of value to the debate.

Jask

I think several of his points have some merit regardless of your feelings towards him.

Julio

The Incas practiced human sacrifice, would you ban them from the country or would you allow them in to practice their faith without restriction? The truly committed multiculturalist would choose the latter.

David

"Rather than stand there and uncsonstructively shout 'bigot' at him, recognise that he has something to say about the appalling state of Judaism and especially Jewish populations in the west that are allowed special pleading when it comes to assimilating to their host countries"

Which is pretty similar to the crap you hear coming from the BNP.

Linda Smith

David posted: "Rather than stand there and uncsonstructively shout 'bigot' at him, recognise that he has something to say about the appalling state of Judaism and especially Jewish populations in the west that are allowed special pleading when it comes to assimilating to their host countries"

David, I am mystified by your statement about Jews. Would you kindly explain.what you mean about "the appalling state of Judaism" and "special pleading".

Andreas B

Mr Massie thinks the mullahs will guard freedom of speach better than Mr Wilder? Well, if one should indulge in delusions I suppose one make it grand one right away...

THX1138

I find the the man utterly repugnant and an Idiot , how can he be saying in one breath that we need to strengthen free speech and in the other say the Koran should be banned.

And to you posters that agree with Wilders or that Alex is over reacting I say that you should swap Muslin for Jew and mosque for synagogue in his nasty little 10 point plan.

Go away and examine you consciences!

Geert Wilders is a racist bigot & so are many of the commentors on this thread too it would appear.

A great OpEd of the bigot in the NY Times by

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/22/world/europe/22wilders.html

Ian Buruma author of Murder in Amsterdam: The Death of Theo van Gogh and the Limits of Tolerance.”

This from the man that says "We need an European First Amendment to strengthen free speech."

From the article about his squalid little film:

"the response of Dutch Muslims to his film last year was exemplary: most said nothing at all. And when a small Dutch Muslim TV station offered to broadcast the film, after all other stations had refused, the grand champion of free speech resolutely turned the offer down."

Alf Tupper

Alex, do you think that the insecurities felt by the West are justified in any way? ie does the West need saving?

Alf Tupper

THX.

If Wilders is a racist and a bigot, and if I were - at your recommendation - to swap the word 'Muslim' for the word 'Jew' etc, in his 'nasty little 10 point plan; then I'm not sure how this is supposed to make any point.

What is that point?

Sylvia

Gill: I have never ever heard anyone in the BNP deny the Holocaust. We have been to quite a few meetings and got to know many members. We have five BNP councillors in Epping, one of whom is a Jewish lady in her seconed term. She is very well respected, and is a very hard worker.

Within the BNP there are homosexual and lesbian members, some of whom are candidates in the coming elections !
It may surprise some people that the BNP have members of polish,Italian, hungarian decent, gay, disabled, jewish, and many members have foreign wives/husbands etc.
A Jewish treasurer.
BNP also have Members of the Armed forces, ex WW2 veterans, ex spitfire pilots, pensioners.
Unemployed, Self employed and professional people !

Adam Walker BNP teacher has a Japanese wife, Richard Barnbrook (BNP GLA member) his partner Simone Clarke (BNP member)are bringing up Simones mixed race young child.

Regarding the usual ‘racist’ accusations – the most seriously injured BNP activist attacked with a claw hammer, turns out to have a Chinese wife; one of the two BNP officers in Wigan turns out to have been married 24 years to an Asian woman, and has a mixed race child (well, she’s 20 now).

Democracy=the will of the people, the opposite is dictatorship.

THX1138

Alf T-My point as you know very well is that if Wilders has made these biggoted attacks on Jews instead of Muslims the commenters on this blog would up in arms and rightly so.

Except on these boards too many seem to find it acceptable to attack Muslims and they use the term "radical Islam" as code like anti semites use "zionism" and it disgusts me.

Well guess what everyone the nasty little bastard hates Jews too- Suprise, Suprise

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1046918.html

"In the interview, Wilders also said that he is considering forming an alliance with Belgium's far-right Vlaams Belang party, which he has hitherto shunned. Belgian Jews have also shunned Vlaams Belan"

bob23bob

I remember back when I was in kindergarten, we would always thoroughly exercise our discussion techniques and call each other names of which we didn't know the meaning of.
"Bigot" would have made a real impression back then and surely have raised the discussion to a more physical level.

Linda Smith

"Justice Muhammad Taqi Usmani argues that Muslims should live peacefully in countries such as Britain, where they have the freedom to practise Islam, only until they gain enough power to engage in battle".

....Mr Usmani, 64, sat for 20 years as a Sharia judge in Pakistan's Supreme Court. He is an adviser to several global financial institutions and a regular visitor to Britain. Polite and softly spoken, he revealed to The Times a detailed knowledge of world events and his words, for the most part, were balanced and considered.

...These words are not the product of a radical extremist. They come from the pen of one of the most acclaimed scholars in the Deobandi tradition.

The Times, 8 September 2007
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/faith/article2409833.ece

Is Wilder's a bigot - or - is he right?

Gil

Sylvia, every religion has its useful idiots. According to you the BNP is all sweetness and light. Pull the other one.

And as to your disgraceful comment that Griffin hasn't denied the Holocaust, do your research.

Alf Tupper

THX.

No I was genuinely confused by your phrasing, thanks for the explanation.

Why though do you equate Jews with Muslims when there are so many things which set the two peoples apart?

Wilders' concerns are those of millions of Europeans who simply feel overwhelmed by the sheer number of muslims in their countries. This is now, but the real anxiety comes when they look at the demographic trend and what the very near future holds.

These seem to me to be very valid concerns and when people insist there is nothing to worry about then it suggests to me that they are being either naiive, irresponsible or just duplicitous.

Why concern and anxiety? Because it will lead to war. Europe will not go gently, but will fight to resist being engineered into extinction. It might well lose, but it will fight, and the fuel for the conflict is building with every day that passes.

Do you like war?

Go on, tell me it's all in my imagination.

THX1138

Alf T

"No I was genuinely confused by your phrasing, thanks for the explanation."

Happy to oblige, I agree my phrasing was a bit clunky.

"Why though do you equate Jews with Muslims"

Because they are both minorities in Europe attacked by racist bigots like Wilders & sadly I have to say by too many on this comments thread.

I live in North LDN and I'm surrounded by Muslims from the Malaysians who run the shop at the end of my road who I joke with about football; the woman from Kashmir in accounts payable at my biggest client who gets me paid early if I'm stretched to meet my pay-roll; the guys in my local gym who I box with; the Iranian shop on The Holloway road that sells the hottest chillis in the world and cool Persian house & disco CD's from Tehran, the parents in the school playground . All fine people and all Muslim and yes it's all in your Imagination.

Do remember the main victims of the last war in Europe were Muslims who were massacred in their thousands by Christians in the forests of Srebrenica.

Alf Tupper

Is there any reason why my previous two attempts to respond to THX have failed to show?

Frank Clough

There are two things which could kill the western liberal tradition: right wing demagoguery and increasing Islamification. Both are equally dangerous and the liberal left have not found a middle way between the two. Instead they have chosen to side with one of the alternatives: increased accomodation for Islam.

This will mean the end of secular liberal values just as much as right wing demagoguery will.

Hugo

I submit that when Mr. Massie shows the slightest spine, and the faintest inkling of risking his own fat, pampered neck in defense of free expression, of women's rights, of the rights of gays not to be murdered, against anti-semitism and so forth,

maybe then Mr. Massie will be worth listening to on this subject

S.Shashoua

Many people, I for one, will agree with all his points and wish there were more farsighted and strong leaders in the West like him.Too many are apathetic and cannot or will not see the threats we are facing.

dan

I agree with Wilders except regarding Islam not being a religion. It is, but not ours and thats our choice. How is it fair on other groups like Jews who are just getting over centuries of persecution from we Europeans to let others spread hate. Life is a battle and we all have to take sides im afraid. Satisifing to know that those who label him a "bigot' cant play the 'evil white man' card with him any sense as he is of mixed background but is "one of us' Keep it up Geert!