What is Britishness?

Craig Strachan

Yes it's complex, fragile, contradictory, opaque, mysterious, amorphous, capacious, powerful and open to all.

I'm hoping there's an update on the way in which you reveal what it is, in essence, in your opinion?

Alfred Wells

Quite right, Britain is a multicultural construct.

Britain is the name of a political union home to several ethnicities. These are: English, Scottish, Welsh and Irish.

How on earth have we ended up with ignorant, guilt-ridden and reality-denying tossers like Alex Massie telling us what they think "Britishness" should be?

No offence, of course.

Beefeater

"Britishness" - complex, layered, fragile, contradictory, satisfying, opaque, mysterious, amorphous, capacious, nothing to fuss over, no big deal, powerful, open, multi-cultural.

Having a hard time finding the soap in the bathwater, old chap?

Hugh

I'm not sure why being a multi-cultural state or having an amorphous identity should help make us colourblind - and since one in five of the working class admit they are not, I'm not sure it does.
I'd be interested to see how many Americans feel being white is an ‘important factor’ in being American. Do you think we're definitely doing better with our model - you know the place better than me?

Derek BLADES

Thank you for your clarification Alex. I agree with nearly everything you say though I am not sure why you limit the multicultural thing to the last three hundred years. Those olive-skinned Romans brought an entirely different -and certainly superior - culture to these islands nearly two thousand years ago.

Skin colour is of course the problem. Romans, Normans, Danes, Huegenots, Jews, Irish and Poles have all easily disguised themselves as Brits but Africans and Asians do stick out a bit. Fortunately young children in state schools seem to be colour-blind and they carry this on into later life. My guess is that if the survey you refer to had been restricted to the under-thirties, that twenty percent would have been in low single numbers

mckenzie

It was a good argument until you called me a knucklehead, then I realised what you are.

cuffleyburgers

As ever a thoughtful post.

To me it is obvious that colour has nothing to do with it, I would say the man who comes closest to describing the assortment of values would be Kipling.

I don't suppose he gets much attention in schools nowadays, and that is doubtless part of the problem, and why we have to get tribalist gits like McLunatic pronouncing on stuff they don't understand.

Conservative Cabbie

Alex

Well that's about as excited as I've seen you on anything (with the possible exception of Rush Limbaugh :-)) and I agree with most of it.

The one disagreement is with the implication of your disagreement that "British=English". Of course the two are not synonymous but it leaves little opportunity to express ones own Englishness if we are to guard against equating the two. The Scots and the Welsh do not have the same censorious attitude towards expressing their own identity.

Rhoda Klapp

The first warm spell of the year is a time to come to terms with Britishness. I can't look at most people's idea of warm weather wear without wincing. (Hey, that came out as alliteration!). A fat bloke in shorts, no shirt, sandals and socks. What I need is a definition of britishness to exclude him, but of course I can't, because in many ways he is the epitome.

EC

Alex, please can you define Scottishness? What constitutes a REAL Scot?

There was a newspaper campaign in Scotland a while back and people were driving around with stickers in their back windows proclaiming, "I'm a REAL Scot from x,y,or z etc."

If/when Scotland becomes truly independent how is 'A Scot' going to be defined?

LiverpoolTory

The Scots would still be British even if they seceded from the U.K., as would Wales or for that matter England.

Irish & Free

Alfred Wells - Britain is the name of a political union home to several ethnicities. These are: English, Scottish, Welsh and Irish.

Your being very offensive to the Irish in making this statement. There is no political union between Britain (i.e. Scotland, England & Wales) and Ireland. I have just checked my passport and it says absolutely nothing about Britain. It does say European Union on the front of it though. Maybe you have your unions mixed up. The European Union is a union countries in Europe join not a union that is forced upon them using barbaric violence to subjugate them to the Queen of England.

logdon

"The genius of Britain and Britishness is that it is indeed a multi-cultural state. It has been for more than 300 years."

I disagree. Before Labour's idea of enforcing multiculturalism upon us by edict, Britain was a state built on many ethnicities but with the majority sharing the same values and culture.

They integrated and assimilated, buying into the idea that Britishness was a fairly settled concept offering fairness, meritocratic advancement and rule of law.

That is not multiculturalism, which is divisive, racist and a guarrantee of strife.

It sets up a pecking order of race against race and right now many white, indiginous working class citizens feel cheated at being placed at the bottom of the heap.

We may not worship on a regular basis anymore but our Judeo/ Christian heritage has set the tone of what we are and how we conduct our affairs.

Strip that away and we end up like Pakistan or a constantly feuding African nation.

Ask if immigrants are so keen to gain admission, are they seeking more of the same from which they are fleeing?

A cynic could say it's only for our generous welfare benefits but there must be more.

Greystead

Despite what Irish & Free says, the United Kingdom is defined as England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland. Now quite a few people from the republic of Ireland, Northern Ireland and the other parts of the UK insist on referring to everyone from Northern Ireland as being Irish. So if we are, then you are simply looking at the wrong passport. If we are not Irish, by whatever defintion you like to use, then please tell your friends and let us get on with being British.

Fergus Pickering

Let me try again, Mr Massie. I say a sine qua non of Britishness is the ability to speak English. I also say that the Scots have only themselves to blame if English people do not think of them as British. They do not appear to think of themselves in that light. And of course what really keeps them together as a nationis hatred of the English. No will you print it THIS time?

daniel.waweru

This might well come as news to those whose first language is Gaelic. (And there were quite a few of those until quite recently.)

ndm

-- But, just in case there's any confusion, I should say that my view is that skin colour or ethnic background are entirely irrelevent when it comes to determining whether someone is British. The genius of Britain and Britishness is that it is indeed a multi-cultural state. It has been for more than 300 years.

As I presume Alex Massie knew I had no doubt that this was the case. I merely felt the paragraph needed clarification for the benefit of those readers who drift in from less enlightened parts of The Spectator blogosphere.

Alfred Wells

"Your being very offensive to the Irish in making this statement. There is no political union between Britain (i.e. Scotland, England & Wales) and Ireland."

You're being very offensive and I am offended. This makes your argument unpopular! That's as bad as being plain-old illogical nowadays!

But in seriousness: I did not state there was a political union between (the Republic of) Ireland and the rest of the UK. Your assumption is just over-sensitivity, now that it is all the rage to get offended when someone says something horribly nasty about your country. I stated that Irish people make up part of the ethnic map of Britain, and they do. Check Northern Ireland, it's ours now.

God Bless The Queen.

Fergus Pickering

Daniel old son, no there aren't. They're all dead. Really!

ndm

-- Daniel old son, no there aren't. [Native gaelic speakers are] all dead. Really!

Holy crap. How come no one told me most of my living relatives are, in fact, all dead?

EC

What is Britishness?
The abandonment of Nationalism. Take away the racism born of ancient grievances and there's barely anything left.

Fergus Pickering

And you are telling me, ndm, that most of your living relatives don't speak English. Why don't they bloody learn? is it too much to ask? If they DO speak English, then why don't you read what I say and not what you want me to have said? Celtic crap (mutter, mutter).

Wyrdtimes

"The genius of England and Englishness is that it is indeed a multi-cultural nation. This necessarily involves tensions and, from time to time, may indulge certain animosities but there it is. Englishness is a construct and, as such, something that takes time to take root. It is a layered sense of identity that can be as complex and fragile and contradictory as it can be satisfying.

And it is the better and the more valuable for being that. The Idea of Englishness, difficult and sometimes opaque or mysterious as it can seem, matters precisely because it is so amorphous and capacious. It is open to anyone even, no precisely, because we do not make a fuss and dance over it. Nor, happily, do we make a big deal out of it. That's not the English way. But the Idea of an Independent England and Englishness is a powerful thing and though we do not, being English, fetishise this, it is open to all. As it has been in the past and as it is now and will be, let's hope, in the future. Regardless of race or creed or colour.'

--

Personally I'd replace multi-cultural with multi-ethnic.

With 2.1 million migrants settling in England between 1991 and 2007 and 340,000 Scots living in London alone (including Mr Massie?).

Is there any anti Scot feeling in England? Very very little. Is there any anti English feeling in Scotland? You betcha - It would be a brave man (or woman) to wear and England football strip in Glasgow on a Saturday night - and you know it's true.

The "British" tolerance of which Massie writes is in reality mainly English tolerance.

One day I hope that these migrants of what ever ancestry will recognise that and regard themselves as English rather than British. For that is what they are in choosing to settle in England.

What I object to most of all are the Scots in England who deny us our England. The likes of Massie, Alistair Campbell, Plug Marr and the Raj of Labour - hopefully the latter will be purged from the system once and for all and soon.

EC

"Research shows.." must come a close second behind "They say."

Here we have Alex Massie quoting Fraser Nelson and it would have been really nice if one of them could have quoted the source for their statistic. Then we might have discovered how the researchers themselves had defined "working-class Brits" and, indeed, a number of other things about their sample such as the size, ethnicity, education and how many of this 20% had even been inconvenienced by work or had any aspirations to do any.

I find the manifestation of Nationalism, with its attendant flag waving and potential for creating racial/ethnic division and violence, deeply depressing.

Domhnagan

RE: Wyrdtimes
June 5th, 2009 12:23pm

You comments about the 'Scottish Raj' in London would be met with surprise and laughter in Scotland, but also reveal something about your own thoughts about the connection between ethnicity and nationality.
To suggest anywhere in Scotland - in my opinion - that Alistair Campbell, Andrew Marr, Tony Blair et al are Scots, would be met with puzzled looks. They are culturally English. Just because Da or Granda was Scottish does not make one Scottish. Of course, on one limited level they are Scots, but that will be outweighed by their having been raised in an English environment. They are Englishmen. Brown and Darling are not - they are Scots. Can you appreciate that difference?
This appears to reveal that you regard nationality (ie Scots, English etc) as being fixed by where your ancestors came from. By your reasoning, does that make Elizabeth Saxe-Coburg / Windsor German?

Dol Begg

RE: Wyrdtimes
June 5th, 2009 12:23pm

The idea that Alistair Campbell, Adnrew Marr, Tony Blair et al are Scots would be met with bewilderment by every single person I know in my country (Scotland). Having near or remote ancestors who are Scottish does not make one Scottish. The three men mentioned were all either born, educated or immersed in some other fashion in English environments. They are culturally English - and seeing as Scots for the most part do not define Scottishness by ethic origin, but rather by culture and upbringing - then Campbell, Marr and Blair are all Englishmen.
Scottish Raj in Westminster? What? Do you remember when the vast majority of Scots did NOT vote for the Tories, yet were subjected to years of Thatcher/Major rule?
The Union is dying - the best way you can 'liberate' the English from the 'Scottish Raj' is to campaign to end the Union. Of course we'll be taking our percentage share of the wealth of the Union. After all, its a Union of equals is it not...we share our oil with you, you share your wealth with us...