Police Brutality in Nottingham

Richard

Don't lie. We did not see anyone punched in the head.

It is possible that the punches landed in the head, however I don't think so for two reasons. Firstly I thought they landed on his upper back, until I read others who were trying to make a story out of this say it was in the head. Now I look again and am convinced they land on the upper back or the shoulder. Secondly it makes no sense to hit him in the head. These are trained officers trying to handcuff a man, not break their own fingers. This man refused to bring his arm behind his back, so they are trying to force him to.

This is ridiculous. It is a story made up for the media age. A man who put a polce officer in hospital was arrested. In resisting arrest he forced the police to use violence to arrest him.

Wilhelm

Mrs Alex Massie

That guy could be a rapist or a serial killer for all you know, Huzzah for the police, well done.

Kevyn Bodman

Isn't it against the law to take photographs of police?

Doesn't that apply to video footage?

Whoae interests are served by that law?

Not the public's.

John Lea

I wouldn't call this brutality at all, more a case of old-fashioned policing. Perhaps if more police officers treated violent thugs in this uncompromising fashion our high streets would be safer on Friday and Saturday nights.

ben

It look excessive but taken utterly out of context. A police office hospitalised and this chap is CLEARLY resisting being handcuffed pretty violently. None of those (male) police officers are small lads yet it takes all their energy to restrain him. The punches are trying to free the guys arm to cuff him, not as the lilly liberals would believe to hit him in the head.
why don't we take this power of the police away too, then we can all just run around and create havok with impudence.

Paul B

I think the punches are aimed to the upper arm to give a "dead arm" effect, which makes it easier to pull a detained persons arm behind his/her back and then apply handcuffs. Its a legitmate and lawful use of force. Now the tasering is different.The officer with the gun is shouting tasering to warn other officers not to touch the detained person - rather like medical paddles shock pads. Im not sure if continued blasting is lawful. Better to have used spray in the suspects face and then use lawful restraint methods taught. However this is all in hindsight and in the clear light of day with no pressure no emotion- and- least it be forgotten- fear.

EC

Nottingham is a very nice but it can also be a rough old place. Even twenty years ago the Cops used to walk around in threes at the weekends.

Thanks to the massive NuLab investment in hospital administrators there are so many social problems wandering the streets of our towns and cities. Under Nulab, the major benefit of public services accruing to the witless division of the utopian 'third army' employed in them.

Who knows what the problem with this guy was, but I don't think that from just one camera angle we can judge what occurred.

The police have a very difficult job.

Chris

Regardless of punches to head or back or upper arm - what I see is a group of armed thugs pushing a drunken thug around. If this is where we're headed, heaven help us. All of the readers here would be shouting from the rooftops if these methods were deployed upon them. Make no mistake - you could be subjected to them if one of our 'finest' was to consider that you were resisting arrest.

THX1138

This not an isolated incident- South Yorkshire Police have form too.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/south_yorkshire/6428865.stm

Watch them beat the crap out of a 20 year old girl.

Steve.W

Well done Alex for carrying this vid from YouTube. I got home at 4am this morning and saw it on the early editions of the newspapers, very depressing. You start your comments with the phrase “paramilitarisation of our police.” People in a hurry need read no further, for that is, exactly, the process in hand.

The next important bit are the words “appropriate and proportionate”. I would say that this police action seems to have completely lost its way. But then so have quite a lot of our public servants. I would think the crowd that gathered and the poster of the vid are of the opinion that the police had 'lost it', big time. They were horrified at what they saw and are first hand witnesses.

More on context, a report spoke of a “an aggressive customer” at a night club being the subject of a call to the police. I wonder if this was an over-statement by the caller? It has become part of UK folklore that if you call the police about a minor incident they will come by the following day; EVERYBODY now overstates the seriousness of the reason for their call. It is the way the citizen attempts to speed things up!

Another report suggests the man arrested was 40 years old, he also looks bit over-weight to me. So 4 police officers, tazered twice, punched; over the top here with our reaction? I think so.

Big Alec

Chris - let's turn your point on its head: what if you were a policeman confronted with a large, violent thug who refused arrest. What would you do? We have to live in the real world. If this guy hadn't been acting like an ar*ehole in the first place, he wouldn't have found himself being arrested.

Augustus

My first reaction was that the Tanzanians in the Serengeti National Park do a neater and cleaner job in dealing with wild animals. And these incompetents are British police officers?

Paul

Granted, the arresting officers should use reasonable restraint to overpower the suspect to arrest him. If the suspect had been violent prior to the filmed incident, then this restraint escalates to match it.

However, when this suspect is prostrate, he can't offer the sort of resistance that warrants the treatment that we see. And punching should not be part of an arresting officers repertoire, whatever the context of the arrest.

Indeed, I thought the punching was applied to the suspects back - which is worse than being punched in the face. It was an act of a coward, and I expect to hear about that policeman blubbing in court like a baby as the police are wont to do these days when they are facing recrimination.

The police are not on my side.

Carl

Which video are you watching because from everyone I have seen, the punches are clearly to the upper arm/shoulder but I suppose that is not quite sensational enough.

As a blog entry, yours is a very poor example Alex. As journalist, it is rubbish.

Nicholas

I'm disgusted by the braying "approval" comments here. These police officers behaved like thugs. Plain and simple. This was not "old fashioned policing" but the use of excessive and unnecessary violence. In my opinion - and I have plenty of relevant expertise - these "officers" were exacerbating the situation. The man on the ground is rolling about and crying in distress - not "resisting". Whether he was punched in the head, arm or shoulder is immaterial - it was an assault. The same "officer" then goes on to violently push away a member of the crowd for the heinous "offence" of standing too close by.

If four abled-bodied police officers are unable to restrain a man lying on his back in the street without resorting to violence and lethal force then they should not be police officers.

I do not agree with Tasers. I think it is arming our police by stealth without public or parliamentary debate. I think they will be used more often as a less serious sanction than a firearm by officers who appear to panic and overreact at the slightest display of resistance or non-compliance (e.g. G20, man with chair leg, drunken lawyer with shotgun, distraught pensioner, etc.). I do not believe our police have sufficient discipline, training or supervision to be entrusted with them, let alone real firearms, and the consequences are ably demonstrated by this appalling video.

It is ironic that at a time when our police appear to look more and more like shaven-headed special forces hard men they appear to behave at their most ill-disciplined, wet and ineffective. The police management, training and supervisory levels should feel thoroughly ashamed by this sort of display - because they are just not doing their jobs properly.

CH

Distraction blows to assist in handcuffing are commonly used by police. If this guy was punched in the face it would be obvious to investigators and certainly wrong. We don't know the truth yet but this certainly does not look like blows to the face or head. The IPCC will have established what injuries were caused already, it would be wise of them to release this before the sensational 'punched in the face' line becomes accepted fact. I would reserve judgement on this until the full facts are known. Dealing with violent and drunken individuals is not quite as simple and straightforward as we might think it is when we don't have to do it.

Alf Tupper C.R.O.F.

The punches are to the arms to try and get them parted. Look at the head - no impact.

The officers used as much force as was necessary and no more. They could have given him much rougher treatment.

There are brutal police forces all over the world. Britain's is not one of them

David Bouvier

What also concerns me is the guy in the blue shirt who appears to express some concern/interest, backs off, and then rewarded with a gratuitous shove in the chest.

Again, under which law is that not assault?

As with G20, gratuitous violence towards members of the public seems to be endemic in culture or god forbid even their training. What is going on?

paul gilboy

I'm sorry but he is clearly resisting arrest he won't give his hands up to be cuffed, he lashing out with his feet and, the officer has punched him in the shoulder in order to give a dead arm.
I was listening on the radio and this is standard procedure. Violent drunks are just that violent drunks. If the police cannot use reasonable force every one else will be the victim.

Derek BLADES

As Chris, June 16, rightly puts it “what I see is a group of armed thugs pushing a drunken thug around."

These four policemen were drunk on their power beat the shit out the poor sod. Not one of them makes any attempt to stop the brutality of repeated tasering and punching.

I assume that those who rushed to your site in defence of the indefensible are themselves members of the police force. God help us all.

dorothy wilson

Meanwhile the Nottingham Evening Post reports yet another teenager dying after being stabbed in the streets.

Lydia P Troyer

What I see are two clearly less than competent (poorly trained-poorly motivated?) rent-a-cops trying unsuccessfully to subdue and put into restraints, a grounded but uncooperative male. Then 2 uniformed coppers show up and it becomes a farce. This is the result of years of car-patrolling - they're unfit and not really sure about what to do next. One of the four should have guarded the perimeter so the woman in white didn't join the fray, as she almost did, or stick a knife or needle in the side of one of the cops. As for using chemicals, these guys are so over-exerted, they'd have as much breathing problem with Mace & CS as the detainee.
Solitary female cops can bring a man down and cuff him but it's considerably harder to do without first giving him something to wince about. I remember watching an infamous Judo brown belt rendered almost helpless against a 6-foot weakling who just wouldn't clinch - none of the clever holds would work 'cause he could never get a grip of the grasshopper's constantly folding limbs - it ain't easy unless you stun 'em first - and these cops could have been far uglier but were obviously following some protocol, they just weren't very efficient.

Richard Jarrett

The Police have an extremly difficult job, and the 24 hour drinking law hasn't helped one bit. As a member of the public, I would say "well done" and to the officer on the right, "you could have got a couple more punches in!"

Fergus Pickering

I don't think itis really possible to tell what is going on here, but the idea that policemaen beating seven bells out of suspects is a NEW thing is rather sweet. Max Beerbohm, that's pre 1914, wrote a rousing song, 'And it's trunch-truvch-truncheon does the trick and in my childhood (that'll be the 50s) I remember a chap, a murderer I think, called Podola, being produced in court. He looked as if he had had an encounter with a steamroller, but it was just an encounter with The Law. Nor is this peculiarly British. In France the police routinely issue from their paniers de salade and beat merry hell out of anyone they see. They've done this for years. It's the French Way. And I don't have to remind you about the German way, do I?

Nicholas

Good post by Lydia P Troyer who has it, although she did not mention the ineffectual screaming at the top of their lungs by the ineffectual shaven heads. As well as demonstrating to everyone in earshot that they have lost it the screaming is robbing them of breath and clarity of thinking.

cuffleyburgers

Not too sure about the punch to the head...

But as a firm fan of Walker Texas ranger I have no problem with robust policing, but this video just shows a bunch of incompetent thugs making a total abortion of a situation in which the man was already on the ground. use of the taser seemed totally unnecessary, and crwowd control methods employed consited of shouting, and pushing violently. Quite pathetic, and totally at odds with what one likes to think of the traditional bobby.

These individuals look liek untrained paramilitary thigs f the sort you might expect in dodgier parts of the world.

Steve.W

Nicholas – June 16th post – You are correct here, it's also the best post. The point you make, in a later post, about the “ineffectual shaven heads” is a perfect summary of the incident. Rather like in Ireland the 'B Specials' were disbanded there has to be a huge change in the way the UK police works. What will the ineffectual shaven heads do for a job then? I've no idea, they can't do their present job properly that's for sure.

Frank

Go to a police training center, I am sure they will let you attend, and have a go at trying to detain and subdue someone who does not want to be detained, then bear in mind this man was drunk he had already put an officer in hospital, you may change your mind, also have another look at the video, the officer punched the offender three times in the upper arm area an approved home office method to give him a dead arm and make it easier to arrest him, I had a few people watch this video over and over, and they all changed their mind as to where the man was punched.
People like you making sweeping statements about what happened sickens me,you were not there, this is not objective reporting it is subjective bias on your part, as a reporter you should have repeated the facts using words like alleged and apparently etc, but no you jump in with both feet and spout your own prejudice,I dont know the full circumstances, and I will neither praise or condemn the officer involved, I will leave that to the enquiry where all the relevant facts will come out, but you cant wait that long to have your say can you.

thespecialone

Well well. I see that there are plenty of posters as well as the author who have never ever tried to arrest a violent drunk who has already hospitalised one officer.
You lot really do need to get out of your armchairs. As one poster has said; why dont you go an to a police training place and try to arrest a man (who in a training environment is sober and really on your side) and see how you get on. I have had to help arrest a young slim female. It took 4 of us to restrain her. I have seen a 15 yr old female headbutt and floor a much larger male officer.
Policing in reality is not Dixon of Dock Green. It is sometimes violent. How many of you wont go to your town centre on a Friday or Saturday night? How many of you have had words with a drunken thug?
If you armchair coppers think you can do better, join the Special Constabulary like I did. I guarantee you that you will soon change your mind about this video.

Nicholas

Frank and thespecialalone. You are being presumptious in your posts. I have had plenty of hands on experience over many years confronting violent offenders, many of them armed and much more able-bodied and aggressive than that unarmed drunk rolling about on the ground. I therefore feel qualified to criticise. During my own service I held the British police in no great esteem. Now that they have been transformed from a civil to a paramilitary role without the necessary improvements in training, supervision and discipline I view them with absolute contempt. They have abandoned their best attributes and their new "lethally armed and aggressive" stance is largely without merit, without public mandate and without parliamentary debate.

One thing you are correct about. It is certainly not Dixon of Dock Green. And more is the pity. The modern British police has an inflated and emotionally charged idea of its own role, probably as the result of television and some of the fat heads running it, certainly as a result of New Labour's unhealthy obsessions. If you don't like the heat get out of the kitchen and don't presume that all Spectator commentators are without first hand experience of the sharp end of policing. Criminality is not any worse now, New Labour just pretend it is and have allowed the police to overreact in response.

frank

Nicholas.

I concur with much of what you say about the way the police service is being changed as would most of my ex and serving colleagues,but but my post is a reaction to this specific incident and the actions of the people involved, and the obvious distorted view of the events that this reporter has given.
Disregard what the police have alleged to have become, and all the political ramifications involved in that view, just look at the facts.
This reporter spouts opinions and calls them facts, he invites us to watch the incident and make our comments, why? he has watched it and has clearly made his mind up before the full facts are known,The vast majority of forums where this has been discussed are at odds with his view of the events, he is not reporting, it is his personal opinion,and this type of article is what is wrong with the british press today, I do not read newspapers because of this type of article, he has an axe to grind and is using his position to propogate his own views, and not to report the facts,he is not a reporter his is a distorter.

Mark Church

At what point did any police officer punch that man in the head? To the author the head is the round melon shaped object on top of the neck the arm is the long dangly thing hanging from the shoulder where the police man was clearly hitting - agreed when writing in the paper it does sound much more impactive if you say hit him in the head though, well done you.

Karen

Policing MUST Change to Survive.

Violence and police corruption are a serious problem in Brazilian cities. ..... and UK officials attended a conference on that issue in Brasilia in November ...(Hansard 15 May 2009) so what is new here, well nothing with the exception that the Police in the UK have created a huge gaping hole in public confidence due to the manner in which THEY have policed several legal protests.
Recent reports have stated that the Police need to become more humane and use what intelligence exists to show discretion when policing, stop legislating through rules and regulations that can only stifle interaction with the public, in other words be less robotic. It has long been recognised that Policing and corruption are inseparable and it is not simply one bad apple it is more institutionalised and has become the norm for many Police forces and serving officers nationwide. Corruption is multi-faceted it’s a culture issue that creates a bad smell from the top down. Now we hear that within the Lancashire force a special unit is being set up just in case through recession , officers are led into corruption. (http://www.lancashiretelegraph.co.uk/news/4786308.print/)
IF this is really the issue then surely it has more to do with the recruitment process that is used to find Police Officers, IF simply because of an economic downturn an officer is able to be bribed and coerced into criminal activity then the system is fundamentally flawed and must be changed.
Policing is about placing trust in the hands of a select few members of society who we believe to be honest , fair and compassionate individuals, it shouldn’t be about pay and remuneration and sadly whilst we continue to offer salaries that are above other public sector workers then we will only ever have a police force that provides a basic service. We often hear the term “The Thin Blue Line”, a dictum that shows that the police are given a much more equitable position within society than they deserve. The judiciary firmly believe that no matter what, the police are honest, how many times have we heard within a trial the phrase “But why would the officer lie”, it’s a disgrace that police officers are still permitted to refer to their pocket books, also known as the little book of lies and it is shameful that evidence is permitted from officers patrolling in pairs, police corroboration is simply a system by which the police are legitimately lying to falsely convict individuals, because the legal system allows it. The judiciary are at fault, many cases brought before the Courts could be dismissed due to lack of evidence, disclosure delays and evidence misplacements, yet we still pursue these cases that fail and that costs money, huge sums of money are being swallowed up with cases that are doomed to fail, yet no one is questioning why this is continually happening. If the Police lose, misplace or alter evidence then that should be a strict liability issue and the individual (not the force they serve with ) should be immediately suspended without pay , an investigation should be undertaken by non police officers and if found to be at fault that officer should be arrested and charged for perjury, if found blameless then they should be compensated. Courts are clogged up, people have had DNA falsely taken and criminals created due to police corruption , police ineptness and that must change before the system self implodes. Already people are choosing to pay for private security to patrol their communities, they are installing CCTV to protect themselves from Police lies and they are failing to report crimes. Communities have lost faith with their police officers and the police withdraw even more, sadly they have become a rarity on the streets of our sink estates and wider communities.
To change policing they must regain OUR trust and that involves patrolling the streets on foot, interact with the public and cease immediately the use of corroborative evidence so that true justice is once again allowed to flourish. Remove the videos in custody suites and install one that is sent to a central location and cared for by non police officers, no video system should be able to be removed when it goes wrong as it does presently. Anyone found tampering with such equipment should be charged with perverting the course of justice as simply that IS what they are undertaking.

The police must learn from mistakes , they must learn to enforce legislation not divide and conquer, they must work with communities not against them and more importantly they must have discretion because that shows the human face of policing , an area in which most officers wouldn’t recognise today. The police must STOP their use of violence when making an arrest, in many cases it is pure overkill, they go in for the kill, it is no longer just a job it’s a personal situation they themselves have created by threatening unlawful behaviour that far outweighs their alleged offenders behaviour at the time. We only have to watch ‘Road cops’ or ‘Traffic cops’ Sky TV to get a fuller picture of police officers committing section 5 public order offences, the profanities, the violence the aggression, it is outrageous. Watching those programmes it isn’t hard for one to feel intimidated when a police officer is about, they are more tooled up than ‘Robo-Cop’ and that just isn’t fair. The balance we once had with the police and the community has been lost and it would be hard to regain but surely as a matter of public safety we should try.

K Clark-Stapleton

chocaholic

I myself witnessed a man who did NOT resist in anyway get handcuffed and have his legs velcroed by 6 offices, he was then repeatedly kicked and stamped on by them, throughout THEIR attack on him they were on their radios saying 'he's resisting he's resisting'. He was in no position to resist as he was cuffed and strapped! I couldn't beleive my eyes!!