David Cameron Should Support an Independence Referendum

Lord George Foulkse

Written with all the zeal of an anti Scot bigot. Glad to see the back of people like you and your superior arrogance.

ariva derci!

egh

How about we all get independence from the euSSR and Other invaders, and then seetle back down to the tradition of sorting out our Celtic selves? After all, that's been going on for a good 6.000 years, so I expect it can hang on a bit longer...

Jason West

The author would gain more respect if he were to refer to the Scottish Government and the First Minister with the due respect deserved. As much as it may displease him, they are the elected representatives of the Scots people. To refer to Mr Salmond as "Wee Eck" shows a level of immaturity laced with a dose of spite. If you wish your readers to take your articles seriously please try to write them with some level of professionalism. The Scots don't take kindly to being mocked and you do your cause of Unionism no favours by your childish stance.

Ben

Dear Jason West, you are quite right. It's "Fat Eck", he's not that wee.

cuffleyburgers

I am a unionist, and would be greatly displeased if the union were to break up, but I agree with the thrust of your article, and given that I am strongly in favour of a referendum on whether Great Britain should be ruled from Brussels, I think it is only fair that the scots should have a referendum on independence (from london, not from Brussels; how absurd can you get?)

Labour opened this can of worms with their ill-thought through devolution; now a straightforward independence referendum might help to clear the air.

At this point I would like to see equal devolution for Wales, NI and England.

Unfortunately to do the job properly would require a written constitution, and given the pond-life that would likely be in charge of that, it makes me queasy.

However, it ought to be possible to decide which powers will be decided at "state" level and which at "national" level, and to ensure that the majority of "state" spending, eg schools, universities, health, be paid for by taxes raised at that level.

13th Spitfire

And the EU then, assuming the Union stays intact, the popular support for independence from the EU is far stronger than that of Scottish independence. But I imagine we will have to wait for the administration after Cameron before that happens.

Oban

Negative arguments?

If I were an uncharitable chap, I would suggest that was hypocritical. After all, 99% of all arguments used against Scottish independence are precisely that - "negative rather than positive argument for [the Union], basing the argument upon pique and, frankly, some measure of prejudice too." When has anyone ever tried to make a positive case for the Union? Does such a thing exist? I have to say, I very much doubt it.

When is the anti-Scottish independence argument ever anything other than what Scotland couldn't, shouldn't and wouldn't be able to do should it have the temerity to reject the Union and decide upon its own fate?

I don't blame people in England for getting the wrong end of the stick when it comes to Scottish independence. After all they are only regurgitating what supposedly Scottish commentators and politicians have been feeding them for decades. But unfortunately for the above author and his ilk it has now come back to bite them, big style.

Kittler

Cluffyburgers. A Unionist opposed to a Union (European). Thats a little strange.

cuffleyburgers

Kittler - You are clearly a very amusing and clever person.

The united Kingdom has been a force for tremendous good for its consitutents; it gave scots a chance to be part of a great nation, and by extension to help shape the civilised world (the British empire in case you hadn't realised), and lent England the energy and vision of untold numbers of capable scottish soldiers, explorers, businessmen, scientists and, until recently, statesmen (the supply seems to have dried up; the latest batch have been rather shoddy, and we'd like to send them back please).

The EU on the other hand is an anti-democratic, tendentially socialistic organisation run by the germans and the french for their benefit. The (good) idea of a customs union and the free trade area which has brought great benefits to the UK as indeed to all the other members has become a secondary activity to an empire building, self serving and self regarding bureaucracy devoted to its own growth in which the opinions, liberty and welfare of its unfortunate inhabitants is largely irrelevant unless they are french and go and dump horse manure in a belgian street, in which case some more money can usually be extracted from British and german taxpayers' pockets to buy them off.

That is the difference, I should have thought it obvious to someone so clearly witty and brainy as your good self.

Neil

It is vital that voters in England get to vote in the referendum as polls show we would vote heavily in favour of finally ridding ourselves of the Albatross.

Financially it would save us a fortune on benefits and subsidy, and it also means labour are unlikely to ever form a government again and will thus be unable to undermine English society as they always do, especially this past 12 years.

Bring it on Alex!

Steve.W

I'd be happy with a break up of the UK and the EU. Mr Eck would soon tire of being kicked around by the EU much as Brian Cowen from Ireland has!

Stuart Parr

Presumably you also think that it's disrespectful to think that English people don't have the maturity and wisdom to decide on the future of England and will use your column to support a referendum on a devolved parliament for England and an end to direct British rule in England, the last colony of the British empire?

Gareth Young

Alex, have you considered the effect that a Scottish referendum will have in England and Wales?

The political class is terrified of having a debate in Scotland but more terrified, I think, of the effect that a Scottish debate will have on England and Wales. If they could consider Scotland in isolation then they would call the SNP's bluff and go for it. But they can't. A Scottish debate will inflame English and Welsh demands (the two nations that have more legitimate grievances against the Union). There is a real chance that the unionists will lose control and the whole thing begins to unravel and spiral out of control. This is, of course, the argument that Tam Dayell and the Tories always had against devolution. And, whisper it, they were right. The fact thta unionists like you are now supporting a referendum on independence demonstrates this rather beautifully.

mac

Neil,

I'm not so optimistic: I suspect that post-independence England will still be subsidising to the same degree, only via some heavily disguised Brussels filter. Germany will have no wish to add to the burden it already carries in financing the EU edifice, so it's perm one from one who will. The 'straight kinda guy' and the Scottish raj probably sewed this up when the British rebate was given away.

Cue spurious reminders about "Scottish oil . . ."

Fosse

Any referendim on Scottish independence would just show the lack of democratic say the majority have to put up with. A referendum on English independence would make our political msters sit up and take notice

John Lea

Neil - what about the countless number of Scottish soldiers who have sacraficed their lives in Afghanistan for the security of this nation (UK)? Are they part of this metaphorical albatross that you speak of? Would you like to take their place out there?

Ian Campbell

But Alex why should we not be offered a multi-option referendum on independence in England (and Wales & Northern Ireland) too? Don't we have the democratic right to be asked? Shouldn't the Union be tested in all four nations? In England the UK govt has not even condescended to ask us whether we would like to have an English Parliament within the Union. All peoples have the right to self-determination (1976 Convention). While Unionists are entitled to defend the Union, are Unionists not democrats? Should the Union not rest on the consent of the people? Who voted for it in 1707 or 1800? (The Welsh never had a vote - they were forced in.) How can UK Ministers strut about the world professing their democratic credentials when they do not have a clear mandate for the Union??

Fergus Pickering

I think the Scots should be mocked AT ALL TIMES. It would flush out the humourless pedants, of which there are a good few, I can tell you, and the self-important bags of wind (plenty of those too). SAnd then maybe, maybe, the Scots cpould grow up, as the Irish have, and stop indulging in their everlasting celtic whinge.

Craig Strachan

I'm a sad person and I recently spent a pleasant half-hour or so perusing the bios of Westminster candidiates at the Scottish Conservative website. They seem like a fresh young lot. I'm predicting the Tories will at least double their seats in Scotland next year. And I wouldn't rule out a surprise on the upside!

Neil

John Lea - I am deeply sympathetic to our armed forces, however, they are not all Scottish. My village has several there now.

More to the point, it was the Scottish mafia in Westminster that sent them all there on a false prospectus. They should take the blame.

John Lea

Fergus Pickering - rather a pathetic blog...to enjoy mocking people based solely on their race, which is merely an accident of birth. Do you also mock Pakistanis, Chinese, Africans? Or is racism now only acceptable in relation to Scots?

Andrew

But would Alex also argue for the English to be given a vote on independence, or are we English yet again to be ignored or worse, labled British.
Barnet, West Lothian, cancer treatments, free NHS parking and prescriptions etc.
Once the English woke up to the second class treatment they receive by the British Parliament we would dump the Scots and Welsh in an instant.

But Massie like the oh so typical British Anglophobes would rather ignore the English and hope they just vanish in their PC anti English aparthied Briton.

John Lea

Neil - as far as I can remember, Blair was in charge when we invaded Iraq, not Brown.

Jerry

"The country has a right to have that debate and the people the right to decide the issue for themselves. It would be undemocratic to deny that opportunity and, damn it, disrespectful to the people of England to suppose that they lack the maturity and wisdom to decide the country's future for themselves. "

Couldn't agree more ,Alex.

What really worries the British political class is that, as Toque says, the idea could easily spread to England. The Btitish establishment have a gnawing fear. While they have traditionally always grovelled to Scotland and ignored England, they also know that the English are taking careful note of all this and thinking.
Whats OK for Scotland is OK for England.

They are also beginning to become aware that the real threat to the Union is not Scotland but England. Scotland is likely to vote in a referendum by a majority for the Union. In England it is the reverse. England, never consulted on the Union in the first place, is likely to vote by a solid majority for complete English independence.

Terry

John Lea, the cabinet in 2003 was 9 Scottish, 6 English, 4 Welsh and 3 “other”. If you factor in the power positions, the cabinet that went to war on the basis of a "dodgy dossier" could be defined as being dominated by Scots. They were...
Blair (Scottish), Brown (Scottish), Prescott (Welsh), Cook (Scottish but honorably resigned over the war), Falconer (Scottish), Darling (Scottish), Hain (Welsh), Cook (English), Short (English but resigned over the war), Alexander (Scottish), Jowell (born in London but spent childhood and attended university in Scotland), MacDonald (Scottish), Murphy (Welsh), Boatang (born in England of Guanian and Scottish decent), Hewitt (Australian), Smith (English), Reid (Scottish), Milburn (English), Clarke (English), Beckett (English), Mostyn (Welsh), Irvine (Scottish)

John Lea

Terry - I think you leave off that list the person who was - arguably - the most active in persuading this country going to war: Alistair Campbell (English).

I can fully understand why English people get annoyed when they see a UK govt dominated by Scots and then see a devolved Scots parliament push for independence, but i personally, as a Scot, would be sad to see the separation of Scotland and England.

Terry

John Lea, you're absolutely right Campbell was in middle of it, but I don't think he was in the cabinet. Campbell was Blair's master of the dark art of spin doctoring and he was indeed born in England.

However, his father was from Tiree and his mother from Ayrshire.

He plays the bagpipes and once said: "I feel British first, but I feel Scottish before I feel English. I was brought up in a very Scottish home."

I got that from here...
http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/homecoming-scotland/made-in-scotland-tv-article/2009/07/30/alastair-campbell-s-scottish-roots-made-him-love-the-bagpipes-86908-21557817/

Jerry

You are not up with it Alex. If Cameron comes out an endorses Salmond's independence referendum,even if to argue against it, then the whole subject is taken off the shelf and put into play. There would be endless scope for Salmond to make hay. You correctly point to the text of the actual question(s) to be put and the potential for aggravation here.

Salmond is pretty smart. Rather than a single YES/NO He might well settle for a (short)list of options including the option of the Union reverting to the Union of the Crowns 1603-1707.
This theme has not been well developed mainly because of the historical illiteracy and constitutional ignorance of most of the meedja and political class who tend to be somewhat herdlike simplistic on most things.
Nevertheless, they can be swung and for Cameron to support a referendum in 2011 would give Salmond two years in which to do so.

Many in both England and Scotland generally opposed to a total split, would be pleasantly surprised to know there was this option. It won't please all nationalists in either England or Scotland but might well swing the vote.

Bob London

England could never be truly independent as it created a northern Ireland and took over Wales. Just dump them know? These are England's. The Union is England and Scotland. End of.

Darling (Scottish) - no he's not. He's a Cockney. Never heard of the "Darling" clan. Don't sound very much like hard warriors.

Blair isn't "Scottish" either. Never heard him say it once. You'll be hard pressed to find any mention of it when he was PM. He turned out bad, so let's call him Scots now. Great formula!

Tommy

Bob London - Blair was born in Edinburgh, Scotland on 6 May 1953. So he is probably just British then, just like us English people have to be.

Terry

Bob London. England created Northern Ireland? How so? I seem to remember that it was Welshman Lloyd George’s administration that created the north and most Protestants that live there have Scottish surnames. This is because the north was colonized by Scots who drove the locals off their land (whilst Cromwell sacked the south) so how did England make NI?
As for Tony Blair being Scottish, I suppose it depends upon your definition of Scottish. Perhaps being born in Scotland, educated in Scotland and having a Scottish surname (along with the tartan and clan that goes with it) doesn’t count as being Scottish anymore.
The same goes for Darling. He was born in England but he was educated in Scotland, has his family home in Edinburgh (not sure how many times this one has been “flipped”) and says he “feels” Scottish (see http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/1179283.stm). He also signed the Scottish Claim of Right where the signatories swore to hold Scotland’s interests “paramount” as was shown when he lobbied Lloyds to save Scottish jobs over English ones during the takeover of HBoS.