Yes, Let's Talk About Immigration

Noa Zrk

Alex: Yes, I'm sure it will be a wonderful and stimulating debate generating many comments, some even printable.
At this time of night, however and not having the advantage of Scots Winter Time, I'll limit my comment to stating that the immigration to England; by which I mean the acquisition of permanent residency and citizenship rights, being the third most densely populated country in the world, with the highest proportion of recent and would-be immigrants, many illegal, offering minimal skills and negative economic value, incapable of absorption into and inimical to mainstream cultural mores; should cease forthwith. But if you've got the room and work for them in Scotland your welcome to them.

Rudi

Sorry, I stopped reading after "confidence in your nation". I'm from the Netherlands, where, judging from immigration statistics, we had more reason to feel “confident” than you British. And then we saw the actual effects of this “confidence”. A more apt description for mr. Massie’s idea of confidence would be “confused”. What sentimental left-liberal yuppie talk! What a prissy mealy-mouthed canter! If this is what passes for “right-wing” in Britain then you people are doomed.

So the greatest thing about our culture, for which we should feel the most pride, is that it allows itself to be progressively changed into its own opposite. Our culture will be wiped of the earth, our nation unrecognizably changed and the native Dutch will be replaced (look at Amsterdam and Rotterdam!). And this should give us pride!

ndm

Awesome post, Alex.

I remember when visiting my grandparents that come Tuesday their post office was awash in copies of the Sunday Post being mailed across the world. (By some quirk of Sharia law the Sunday papers were not available until Monday.) Indeed, I think at the time the Sunday Post boasted of having the widest circulation of any newspaper in the world in terms of the number of places on earth where it was read. Scotland has always had a tradition of its people taking the road and seeking other loanins. However, in the lands where they ended up they were the immigrants. Yet we don't hear complaints about them and their ways.

But we do hear rants and ravings when people travel in the other direction - if they are non-white. We never hear complaints about Americans or Canadians coming to Britain. Yet people have complained about West Indian immigration and now people are obsessed with Muslim immigration. And that obsession is playing out in words of fantasy that bear an all too close resemblance to those in Mein Kampf.

Muslim immigrants have brought with them much that is good. Like many immigrant communities across the World they brought a work ethic that shamed the locals. They brought their food that has almost displaced the local food.

As Alex points out it often takes one or two generations for the full benefit of immigration to become apparent. A century ago, Melanie Phillips' ancestors were probably poor Jewish immigrants while now she waves St. Georges Cross like the best of them.

ndm

Having paraphrased some of his words in my previous post, I meant to give Hamish Henderson some credit:

O come all ye at hame wi' Freedom
Never heed what the hoodies croak for doom
In yer hoose a' the bairns o' Adam
Can find breid, barley bree and painted room.

Freedom Come All Ye

Andrew

List of countries more densely populated than England:

The Netherlands
Lebanon
South Korea
Taiwan
Bangladesh

And that's not counting a dozen other island countries like Malta or Mauritius. If you're counting the whole of the UK, then the list of denser countries includes Israel, Belgium, India, Japan, and a few dozen others. And if we're counting regions within countries, then you could say that England's density is also beaten by New Jersey, Rhode Island, and North Rhine-Westphalia.

As for the "highest proportion of recent and would-be immigrants," England has a lower proportion of foreign born population than the USA, Ireland, Germany, Sweden, Switzerland, and Austria, among others.

Merlyn

Given current demographic trends, we, the indigenous British people, will become an ethnic minority in our own country well within sixty years – and most likely sooner. So what, you might say.
Over 84% of immigrant applications are from third world countries mostly Muslim.
The uncomfortable truth that nobody wants to look at is- that within some of our lifetimes this country will become Muslim with the current birthrate trends.
With this pattern being followed all over Europe there will be nowhere to go that is not Muslim.
Our natural distaste for Sharia law makes that an uncomfortable thought, but it seems that we here in Britain would rather let ourselves imprisoned within an inhumane system then think of preventing that system being imported here. Fair play and all that.
We are going to have to look at some VERY uncomfortable realities and face the truth instead of living in denial. Then we will HAVE to take action sooner or later. however it may already be too late. This is why you see most faces in inner cities here looking half dead. They know the truth, but the authority bodies are in unified denial.

ndm

If comments like Merlyn's are any guide intelligent "British people will become an ethnic minority in our own country well within sixty years - and most likely sooner."

Richard Lyle

I don't think we need have an immigration policy at all. If someone from another country wants to come here for a better life for themselves and their family, they should be free to come. I'd rather have an economic migrant doing valuable work than an 'asylum seeker' in a detention centre.

rph

Muslim immigrants have brought with them much that is good. Like many immigrant communities across the World they brought a work ethic that shamed the locals.

If that's the case, why do Muslims consistently have much higher unemployment rates than the locals you have such contempt for?

Rhoda Klapp

Why are Muslims different? As individuals, they aren't. They are surely the same mixture of nice, nasty, ordinary people getting on with their lives. But they do constitute a threat (I can't find a word that suits me here, threat has too much of a negative tone, promise too positive) of changes in our society which will be pervasive and unwelcome to most. When the numbers get too high. Islam is a prosetylising religion. Perhaps the only one left. It imposes an unlightened way of life on its own adherents and on others. It compromises freedom, it renounces secularism, it treats women badly and it has a problem coexisting the others. Are these not undeniable facts? Are we not better to face this problem before it happens?

Who assumes the right to give away the rights of my nation without the permission of the population? We are not all transnationalists, and those who are need to convince the rest of us before they proceed any further with this covert creed.

DavidDP

Excellent post Alex. Oddly enough, listening to Griffin and his supporters here has made me more of a liberal with regards to immigration. I find the views put up against it to be abhorrent and wrong.

Michael Sweeney

Wonderful post Alex. Note to editors: this man needs more columns!

HairyNoddy

"At the very least however could those people who decry immigration cease shouting quite so much wnen it is, in fact, their voices that are heard loudest and to them that all parties seek to pander in this whole sorry debate?"

Complete nonsense. Those opposed to immigration (consistently around the 70% mark in various polls) are being studiously ignored by ALL parties but the BNP.

Immigration has brought no benefits whatsoever to the British people. In fact the costs have been enormous, and I'm sure that the greater costs are still to come.

Wyrdtimes

Spoken like a true Scot - immigration into England is fine - the more the merrier.

2.3 immigrants* into the UK since 1991, 9 out of 10 of them come to England. http://tinyurl.com/yhlg7o2

Birmingham and Leicester; cities where white English are now a minority.

Popoulation of UK rising to 70 million in 20 years - and you won't even notice in rural Scotland.

But the English will.

You're talking out of your arse.

*Does not include illegal immigrants

Janus

Not believing in borders is idealistic nonsense. You can dream about it but real life includes recognising that there are distinguishable communities where local rights supersede the rights of non-residents.

Noa Zrk

Andrew

I uphold my statement that England is the third most densely populated country in the world.
Other stats, (not my favourite discussion tool, reminds me too much of the fatuous gibberish spouting Cowdenbeast) demonstrate our inability to feed and heat ourselves. All ok when we were the workshop of the world, but now we're down to the last few buckets of oil and off tick, where's the money coming from?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1222049/Crowded-Britain-heading-70m-migration-causes-population-rise-faster-before.html

Andrew

Noa - how can you "uphold" your claim when it is transparently false? Lebanon has a population density of 1046/sqmi; Taiwan has a density of 1730/sqmi. Interesting that the Daily Mail seems to have "forgotten" about Lebanon and Taiwan. I'll grant that the Netherlands might be a border line case as its density is 1025/sqmi while England is 1023/sqmi. As for the Daily Mail's special singling out of southeast England as 424/sqkm, North Rhine-Westphalia has a density of 528/sqkm.

Wilhem

Alex squeeks '' I dont blelieve in borders.''

More spurious piffling scribblings from Alex,

Massie is trying with this statment to tell us '' Im a live and let live kinda of a guy, I dont give a shit where you come from, Im soo tolerant and liberal, I dont care, Im a citizen of the world .'' kind of garbage

I think we would see a very different kind of Alex Massie if 100 Romanian gypsy caravans turned up in his front garden, wouldnt we, Alex?

It always amuses me that people who squeeel on and on about how bleeeding wonderous multiculturralism is, live 400 miles away from the multural ghetto.

Funny that, isnt it ?

Noa Zrk

Andrew - So what is your view of an acceptable UK population level and how do you propose to continue to feed and pay for the present one? Taiwan and Lebanon have their own immigration, population and growth problems, no doubt you don't have a solution for them either. But stay in bed not losing any sleep, no doubt Malthus will provide.
If you have a problem with the Daily Mail's stats I refer you to them. Your own sources remain undeclared and life's too short for me to substantiate your non arguments.

Augustus

"When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean." So it with the word 'immigration'. In the socialist republic of the EU one shouldn't really use that word, we should talk about mobility. Similarly with Islamic terrorism. You must not use that term to describe people who commit suicide attacks or criminal activities against an innocent population on behalf of religion, because that would be
tantamount to abusing religion. So it's OK for the EU to allow tens of millions of Muslims to flood into Europe from Muslim countries, but at the same time if peaceful Europeans decide to voice an opinion or demonstrate against this Islamization of Europe they are brutally harassed in EU cities by the police. So in future, the next time Islamic Jihad terrorists, I mean mobile workers, enrich us with their presence when they are not abusing Islam, and massacre scores of citizens, authorities
will assure us that they did everything in their power to prevent this, and then they will continue as before facilitating the Islamification of the continent as if nothing really has happened. A sensible politician, on the other hand, would simply point out that we had no Muslim terrorism in Western Europe before we had Muslim immigration.

Logically, the key to ending Muslim terrorism is to reverse Muslim immigration. Unfortunately though, one of the cornerstones of EU policy is the gradual destruction of independent nation states. This has been carefully planned and executed by introducing mass immigration from non-Western countries. The purpose of this immigration is to dilute and destroy the established nation states and their culture until the natives in Britain, France, Germany, The Netherlands, Italy, Spain etc., are too weak and demoralized to oppose the creation of a pan-European superstate. Any opposition to this policy is barred by calling it racism and hate speach. The EU should more properly be called the anti-European Union, and it's continued existence constitutes a mortal threat to its very survival.

Sea Neather Cole

I do not see the word 'Neather' in Massie's post - shumething wrong shurely?

Andrew

Noa - my source is Wikipedia. The figures are easily checked and it's clear you're not disputing them. It's also clear the Daily Mail simply forgot about Lebanon and Taiwan, because they don't even appear on the list, and there is simply no way that their population density is below 119 people/sqkm. (They've also neglected the various small island states, but we'll leave that be.) Life is too short for me to argue with someone who can't even be bothered to check figures on Wikipedia.

Taipei Exile

As with most issues the solution to this one is probably found somewhere in the middle. Over the past couple of years I;ve worked in South Korea and now Taiwan. Being able to find work half way around the world is a wonderful thing and I certainly wouldn't want to prevent people coming to the UK to do the same. However the scale of it must be managed. In every major city you are likely to have enclaves of a particular nationality whether it's Poles in Acton or Australians in Earls Court. The presence of these nationalities often adds a bit of charm to an area provided that a.) the concentration isn;t too high and b.) the newcomers wish to assimilate. It becomes detrimental to everyone when these enclaves are inhabited solely by non-English speaking arrivals with no wish to integrate into the wider community. When I was a student at the University of Leeds I can recall living in the Hyde Park area and having many friends mugged at knife point by feral gangs of Asian youths. I also recall how the Asian women were only allowed out by their husbands for half an hour each evening during which time they would (fully bhurkad up) walk around the block a dozen times before retreating back inside. Unemployment/Economic inactivity of women immigrants from Pakistan and Bangladesh is staggeringly high and the unwillingness to assimilate is what differentiates immigrants from these two countries from, let's say European or Indian immigrants. While I accept that towns like Slough have had problems with the sheer number of Eastern Europeans arriving let's face it the big one we're all worried is Islamic immigration. So what's to be done?

I would suggest.
Placing annual immigration limits on individual countries. E.g Pakistan 150.

Charging £5000 deposits for tourist/student visas. Overstay you lose your cash.

Introducing compulsory English tests for those wishing to reside in the UK, those tests having to be taken before arriving here.

Scrap all local authority translation services including the ridiculous trilingual road signs prevalent in the north-west.

No benefits for all immigrants for 5 years.

All asylum seekers having arrived via a friendly country to be deported.

All visas should be contingent on the applicant producing a notarised/apostilled clean Criminal Record Check.

Extremists must be faced down. We must reduce the prominence of irrelevant groups like the MCB. If public funding is going to groups like this it must be withdrawn. The race-relations industry is giving rise religious sensibilities that didn't exist 12 years ago. Racism isn't anywhere near as prevalent as many people would like us to think. Religions and cultures are not beyond criticism, we should be free to express negative views about either without fear of reprisals.

Austin Barry

Alex

Give it a rest chum. You have long ago established your credentials a thoroughly nice chap of delicate sensibilities surrounded by racist brutes and unreasonable oiks. Take a look around though, life is rather more Hobbsian than your wonderful, pretty Pollyanna views would suggest. As a saintly chap your next career path should perhaps be holy orders and I wish you well. Amen.

DavidDP

"It always amuses me that people who squeeel on and on about how bleeeding wonderous multiculturralism is, live 400 miles away from the multural ghetto."

I've lived in London and Leicester, two multicultural cities. It's great.Long may it continue to provide a vibrancy and excitement to life.

Alan

Alex Massie complains: "could those people who decry immigration cease shouting quite so much when it is, in fact, their voices that are heard loudest and to them that all parties seek to pander in this whole sorry debate?"

How hollow that statement sounds with the admission from a senior former Labour advisor that for at least 9 years Labour governments have been pursuing a secret agenda of mass immigration in order to impose multi-culturalism across the length and breadth of this country.

Wilhelm

David me old son

The remark was pointed to Alex who lives in the Scottish borders, 400 miles to the nearest kebab shop.

You David could live with the Harlem Globe Trotters, for all I care.

Wilhelm

David

'' I live in multicultural London and by God , I looove it.''

No kidding ? You must love all that knife crime then by yardi gangs and rappers , eh ?

DavidDP

"The remark was pointed to Alex"

That must be why you referred to "people" rather than a person....

'' I live in multicultural London and by God , I looove it.''

If you are going to quote me, or anyone else, you could have the decency to actually quote and not make it up"

"No kidding ? You must love all that knife crime then by yardi gangs and rappers , eh"

No different than knife crime by white gangs or violent skinheads.

Wilhelm

''No difference from white gangs''

Now you are being silly, David.

The population of the UK

93% Caucasion
3.5% muslim
2.5% African
1% Chinese

The prison population of the UK

50.000 Caucasion
2.000 muslim
8.000 African
1.000 Chinese

You will note that the African prison population is far far out of proportion to their 2.5% size

'' There is none so blind as those who will not see.'' is there David ?

This conversation can serve no purpose, Goodbye.

THX1138

Alex -Thank you.

John R

It's the culture stupid! (and also absolute numbers). I'm a free trader, and a very convinced anti fascist. However, we all need to grow up. We can/must take responsibility for the society we live in. England (particularly London and the South East is already overcrowded. Further - we are already establishing self replicating and hostile cultures. This is two steps backwards and one step forward as Lenin would have said. We must not Balkanise England and we muct live sustainably. We need to pass on a better world to our children not an impoverished one where UK ltd can't feed itself and is fighting itself like overcrowded rats in a cage.

JohnBUK

Alex, all very fine stuff. Award yourself the Nobel Caring Right-on Prize.
However, assuming we live in a democracy (Naive I know) if we are to change the way of life of a country (England)by some measure shouldn't we at least ask the voters their views? You may then publish your article and no doubt the great majority will be humbled and vote it as a good idea. You would be hailed as a great caring forward thinking individual and we would all ensure the policy worked a treat and live happily ever after.

Frank P

Augustus (1.05pm)

A thoughtful, analysis that deserves wider promulgation. But what's to be done?

These blogs are permeated by myriad analyses and exposures of the threat to Western Civilisation. The evidence that has been adduced of the venal, subversive and treasonous crimes of our own government is clear, documented and damning.

What is completely absent, it seems, is any legal or even practical recourse, because those whose duty it is to prevent and prosecute these crimes are the perpetrators themselves. The puppet police 'service' that is 'in the bag' is apparently powerless to deal with it, having been defanged by he ‘CPS’. The situation is further complicated by members of HM Opposition (ha!) being implicated in the conspiracies. In other words both government and opposition is a charade to cover a complex and treasonable fraud on the citizens (or rather subjects) of the UK.

The Neather world of Tony's Tossers and Gordon’s Gang has now been thoroughly breached by the latest eruption. What further proof is needed of the treacherous intent of the government of the UK. Are these latest uncovered heinous conspiratorial crimes also permitted by 'the rules' of the House of Commons?

After all, the primary perpetrator (The Speaker of the House of Commons) of the recently exposed conspiracy to defraud the public of many millions of pounds through false and unauthorized claims of personal expenditure, has been elevated to the House of Lords, no doubt shortly to be joined by another co-conspirator - the erstwhile Home Secretary (notionally HM overseer of law enforcement, other emergency services and the Security Services).

It would be difficult for any members of the lower or upper houses to escape the taint of that serial scandal either through direct benefit (actus rea), or knowing acquiescence - having a duty to expose and deal with such illegality - (mens rea). The impending disaster that faces our country seems inexorable. Will nobody from the armed services approach The Monarch’s closest counselors at The Palace and cause her to be apprised of this dire State of Emergency, seek permission to arrest the Prime Minister and his cabinet, temporarily form a military junta, then organize a General Election forthwith, with all current members of Parliament disqualified from standing as candidates? The answer is, of course , "No!"

We are then, ladies and gentlemen, not to put too fine a point on it, FUCKED! And probably buggered, to boot, given the vandalism to the Sexual Offences Act of the past few years.

And we've all been agonizing for the past week about whether or not a weird political mutation called Nick Griffin is really Public Enemy Number One, having been ordained as such by the multi-culti, metrosexual, arty-farty literati and Auntie Beeb's Lord High Inquisitor David Dumblebollocks, because Griffin insists that a tribe known as the English still actually exists in England and is worthy of representation in Parliament.

I wonder what Charles Lutwidge Dodgson would have had to say were he alive today?

Jas...

Im sure Alex would think differently if the immigrants were free lance journos & he was been under cut by them..

ndm

Frank P writes:

I wonder what Charles Lutwidge Dodgson would have had to say were he alive today?

I suspect Rev. Dodgson would have told young Frank to read a book on logic while Lewis Caroll would have pointed out all the gyres and gimbles in his comment. The entire content of which could be summarized as a call for military overthrow of a democratically-elected Government because some MPs fiddled their expenses. There is a man who takes life seriously.

Nicholas

ndm:- "The entire content of which could be summarized as a call for military overthrow of a democratically-elected Government because some MPs fiddled their expenses."

"Democratically-elected" by only 21% of the electorate against the wishes of 61% and with an unelected Prime Minister. And even that 21% have not had the manifesto they were promised but plenty that wasn't.

That is before considering the fact that Adolf Hitler was also "democratically-elected" and also went on to become a criminal pariah.

The desire for justice and retribution by those who can plainly identify wrongdoing but feel helpless to do anything about it (most of the electorate) is exacerbated by the fact that the transgressors (our "democratically-elected government") appear to be both above and contemptuous of the laws they have imposed on everyone else.

"Democratically-elected"? Don't make me laugh.

Neater and Neater

And while the sea is boiling hot

And neather pigs have wings

Kaloo Kalay no work today

We're cabbages and coal

David Bouvier

Wilhelm - the population vs. prison numbers need to reflect the number of young men, who make up most of the potential prisoners. the disparity is there but less than it initially appears.

That said, I recall a police operation stopping cars in south London based on automatic number plate recognition of stolen vehicles. This produced a disproportionate racial mix of stops even compared to the local population, just as officer-discretion based stop-and-search did. Clear case of computer bias perhaps?

Nicholas

Professor Bryan Sykes, Professor of Human Genetics at The University of Oxford: "We are an ancient people, and though the (British) Isles have been the target of invasion and opposed settlement from abroad ever since Julius Caesar first stepped on to the shingle shores of Kent, these have barely scratched the topsoil of our deep-rooted ancestry. However we may feel about ourselves and about each other, we are genetically rooted in a Celtic past. The Irish, the Welsh and the Scots know this, but the English sometimes think otherwise. But, just a little way beneath the surface, the strands of ancestry weave us all together as the children of a common past."

Dr. Stephen Oppenheimer sums up his comprehensive assessment of the extensive scientific data: "Two thirds of the English people reveal an unbroken line of genetic descent from south-western Europeans arriving long before the first farmers. Most of the remaining third arrived between 6,000 and 3,000 years ago as part of long-term north-west European trade and immigration, especially from Scandinavia - possibly carrying the earliest froms of English language. As for the Celts - the Irish, Scots and Welsh - ... genetic evidence shows the majority to have arrived via the Atlantic coastal route from Ice Age refuges including the Basque country ... There is indeed a divide between the English and the rest of the British, but the division is many thousands of years older than we ever knew."

This Is Our Land. Whatever the treasonous international marxists, national socialists and self-haters try to tell you.

http://www.darklake-synectics.co.uk/ithilien-web/index.html

Mark, Edinburgh

How does this fit into the UK and Scottish legislation on carbon caps?

The size of population is directly related to our CO2 emmissions.

Therefore the mandatory legal requirements on CO2 NATIONAL targets should surely mean that there is a need to do something about population growth as a result of net migration?

If Grrens can bring legal cases on road/airport/coal fired power stations then why can't someone bring a legal case on net migration? No good arguing its a world zero sum game because UK per capita emmissions are so much higher.

Leaving aside minimum standard of living criteria, all other things being equal you consume more CO2 here comaperd with most countries because its colder in the winter.

Godders

Why do you persist in making hopelessly idealistic, embarrassingly clueless statements about a subject you clearly know nothing about and, as a resident of one of the most under-populated, ethnically un-diverse parts of Europe, are not qualified to comment upon?

Tell us all about heather and Golden Eagles by all means

Minnie Ovens

"I'm perfectly aware that immigration can, and sometimes does, place extreme pressures on certain neighbourhoods, towns and public services. But what of it, at least in utilitarian terms? Immigration, and some of the discomfort caused by it, might properly be considered a source of pride, not despair"

I got this far and gave up. I find it reprehensible that someone can think and write this and really be aware of what is happening on the streets of Leicester, Bradford and East London.
Three million immigrants in thirteen years!
Five percent increase in total population every ten years solely due to immigration.
This fellow is straight from Louis' court in 1789. Blinkered and uncaring of the trauma being endured by major portions of the country.
And no, they do not aspire to live in the UK but to grab the freebies being handed out by Massie's friends. Straight through Europe to the cash cow which is, partially due to this Government, bankrupt.
I take it he has no thoughts at The Daily Mail headlines:

"Dishonest' Blair and Straw accused over secret plan for multicultural UK"

Mr Massie probably thinks it is a good idea and, by the lack of any interest so far by The Spectator, so do they.

Frank P

ndm

‘The entire content of which could be summarized as a call for military overthrow of a democratically-elected Government because some MPs fiddled their expenses. There is a man who takes life seriously.’

Bunkum! I suspect you really know that, which indicates to me that you are a probably an MP. If not, then the shallowness of your thinking is exemplified by your oversimplification of what has been revealed to the world recently; what in fact many of us who worked at the coal face of the murky labyrinths of power attempting to serve the public despite the political crooks, already knew with knobs on. If it was merely a question of fiddling expenses then they would have been dealt with and sacked and otherwise punished appropriately. Many of us have on these blogs exposed the crimes, cover-ups, treason and gross stupidity of our elected leaders and their unelected puppet masters now for many years, long before the Torygraph (now there’s a redundant label) got lucky.

‘Young Frank’ is no longer young, but very old! He has read more books on logic than has been good for him. Moreover none of them explained the sheer gullibility, stupidity, pusillanimous perversity, greed of homo sapiens; nor the predatory exploitation of humanity by its own kind - and never will. Neither has the sum total of all the mighty tomes of learning prevented the sorry state of the world that now prevails; in fact it has fuelled the idiocy. We each in our way have contributed to - and tried to prevent - the chaos, as we have seen fit. But you Sir, I suspect, are a founder member of the Berkeley Hunt and a rather dim one to boot.

Nicholas I appreciate you were not defending me (a dangerous proposition at the best of times) but attacking the trite argument of ndm – but thanks anyway. I agree with your assertions as ever.

As for your comment, Neater and Neater (9.11am) – brilliant!

Frank P

Mark Edinburgh

How does this fit into UK and Scottish legislation on carbon caps? same as Dutch caps I suspect. Careful manipulation of c***s is required, lubrication is essential; moreover the whole process is very unreliable and liable to end in tears (in two definitions and pronunciations of that word).

ndm

Nicholas writes:

"Democratically-elected" by only 21% of the electorate against the wishes of 61% and with an unelected Prime Minister. And even that 21% have not had the manifesto they were promised but plenty that wasn't.

Each and every party knows the rules going into an election - whichever party wins most seats gets to pick the Prime Minister. It is certainly not the fault of the Labour Party alone that almost 40% of the British electorate decided not to vote. Furthermore, it is worth noting that a 61% turnout would be on the high side in a US Presidential election and no one rabbits on about democratic defecits there.

Britain is not a Republic and has mostly avoided the trappings of a Republic such as a directly-eected President. Again the accession of Gordon Brown to his current status as Prime Minister is no different from that of John Major or Alex Douglas-Home on the Conservative side or Jim Callaghan in his own party - and that is just the last fifty years. There is therefore no real foundation to complaints that Gordon Brown is unelected - they are just the gripes of pathetic whiners.

The reality is that the Conservative Paty is responsible for its decline in much of the last decade. In the aftermath of its first loss to Tony Blair no senior member of the party was willing to sacrifice his policital career by leading the party into a probably election loss - and so the party ended up being led by a gaggle of hopeless cases. Conservatives can blame Gordon Brown and the Labour Party as much as they want but they failed to do what was necessary to convince even 20% of the electorate that they were a party worth supporting. The whines of Nicholas show us why.

ndm

Frank P starts his response with:

Bunkum! I suspect you really know that, which indicates to me that you are a probably an MP.

which belies his later comment that

He has read more books on logic than has been good for him.

Seemingly none of the logic stuck. The rest of his comment was no more than a litany of name calling

spanolita

Why equal inmigration to benefit abuse aka economic drain when in fact the vast majority of migrants are a working force, hence pay taxes, that is contribute as opposed to drain the economy. Most BNP and overall anti-migration clans seem to obviate the fact that the largest portion of benefit claimants in this country are in fact, the so-called,'indigenous' people.

spanolita

"It becomes detrimental to everyone when these enclaves are inhabited solely by non-English speaking arrivals with no wish to integrate into the wider community." uhmmmm.......reminds me of the near to 700,000 UK 'expats' living in the costa de baba'' ghettos back in my home country.........hypocritical lot

Roy Smith

Yes, lets talk about immigration, then your post gets lost on its merry way.

cityboozer

The bit Alex is missing is *ownership*. I believe in free movement of goods because that's a straightforward transaction. I want a Japanese car more than I want the money I have to pay. Subaru or whomever would much rather have the money than the car. Everybody wins.

With migration as we currently operate it, some politician likes the idea of a small bump in GDP, another vote, more proof of their modern credentials, a bung from some office-cleaning magnate or slum landlord. The immigrant gets a better standard of living, even if it's still poor by our standards.

So far so good, but it isn't an exchange, and the externalities seem numerous and significant compared with the benefits.

It has costs to me. The liberal economic approach involves giving me ownership. Since there is too much shared space in question (schools, "public services", streets, raw space) we have to find a proxy for ownership. The liberal one is a vote. But nobody ever asked us.

MrJones

"with the moral dimension."

Imagine a small island with a thousand people. For the sake of argument say there's 100 young men and 100 young women. Then say 200 young male immigrants are dumped onto that island.

What do you think happens?

Your moral dimension equates to cheap labour for the rich paid for in the blood of the poor and it has done for 50 years.

It. Just. Wasn't. Reported.

Only marxists are worse than the cheap labour right. They are constantly destroying other people's lives for nothing more than an idea.

Nicholas

ndm: "It is certainly not the fault of the Labour Party alone that almost 40% of the British electorate decided not to vote."

Everything is the Labour Party's fault. It is the single worst thing ever to happen to Britain and its "New" Labour manifestation promoted by ex-student marxists and champagne socialists has the stench of totalitarian communism all about it.

Yes, there were other "unelected" prime ministers, but none of them were spiteful, deluded ego-maniacs presiding over a cabinet of malevolent misfits and reviled by a nation which has endured 12 years of their East German nonsense.

Where are the guardians of freedom?

PS That is not a whine - but it is Labourphobic. Have your comrades made that a crime yet? I am over 40.

Dan

Nicholas - Hitler wasn't elected, he got the largest proportion of the vote in 1932, but not anough to give him power. He was invited into power by the elites who thought they could use him as a puppet and gain from his popular following. They quickly realised their mistake...

Colin Yates

I'd like to occupy this person's sofa without an invitation, and fill his living room with my entire extended family, plus empty his bank account,and then charge and punish him under sharia law for being a non believer.I expect him to be very happy about this naturally.

Nicholas

Dan, strictly speaking if Hitler got the larger proportion of the vote and was then nominated by elites he was elected. He certainly didn't seize power.

Riccardo

Alex! You can't argue that simply because something suits you personally, it must be OK to impose it on everyone else. You believe in no borders? And you believe there's a money tree at the bottom of the garden? Get a grip - this is a national magazine!

A measure like this which is going to push the population to 70m plus and change our established culture cannot be undertaken simply because you, personally, feel OK about it. My kids all go to schools which are roughly 50% non-white. It's OK - they're mostly good kids and the parents are very hot on education. So it's OK for me too. But that doesn't justify uncontrolled immigration. Just to address 3 basic problems would be a huge step forward for public debate. 1) Overpopulation in England, 2) Criminal gangs coming in wholesale from Albania, Somalia etc, 3) 70% are against it. Just address those problems for a start. Otherwise you just sound like Tim-Nice-But-Dim.

Observer

Does your belief in the absence of borders and similar controls extend to your home? Wouldn't there be many people, perhaps in your own neighborhood, who would be better off living in your house than theirs, or on the street?