Referendum Questions: The 1707 Edition

Francois

Vote YES in the independence referendum, Alex.

If you do, I'll be your pal and buy you sweets!

Enraged Pedant

Hey! It's "referendums" (check in the OED, or just use common sense).

ndm

I could easily be wrong but I thought the powers that be in Europe had decided that, following the hassles with the "constitution," the European Union project would enter a period of consolidation - i.e. sit on its duff and let the dust settle. Given that, Camerons threat to hold a referendum seems a little hollow. I reckon that if the Eurosceptics had their way the big difference between Britain and Iceland in the long term is that Iceland won the cod war. There is only one game in Europe and it is not in an English village.

ndm

Enraged Pedant -

OED:
Referendum Pl. referendums, -anda

Perhaps you're using the first edition.

ndm

-anda should, of course, be -enda.

Timothy

Your final paragraph is disingenuous: of course Italian voters should not have a vote as to the UK leaving the EU - but they should be allowed to decide whether Italy stays or leaves. English voters likewise should have a vote not on Scottish independence but on English independence. Scottish nationalists seem to think that they have the right to decide to stay in the Union or to leave, but that England is somehow morally obligated to stay. England could vote to leave, with Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland free to continue in the UK without England.

BM

Fun fact: "referendum" has/d no distinct plural form in Latin.

Ian Campbell

Don't understand your last para, Alex. Those who want an EU referendum point out that no-one who is under 50-odd has had a vote on the EU. Well, no-one alive today had a vote on the Treaty of Union in 1707 and no-one had a vote in 1707 at all except in the two Parliaments. Shouldn't the Union rest on the consent of the people?
The English might want to leave whether the Scots vote yes or no. Anyone is entitled to withdraw from the EU or the UK - but the English have never even been asked if they would like to have their Parliament back. They were only asked, in a small corner of England, whether they would like to have their country broken up into nine bits, leaving no national voice at all.

Philip Walker

I don't know about the whole of the UK having a referendum on Scottish independence, but certainly Scots living throughout the UK should do. They would get a vote if they were expatriates, so given that the proposal is to turn them into exactly that, they deserve a say. (And I bet that adding in *those* Scots will guarantee a convincing win for the unionists.)

Home Rule for England

"Additionally: a quick question for those readers who always say "England should have a vote too!" - were there to be an "In or Out?" referendum on British membership of the EU, do you think the Spanish and the French and the Germans and the Poles and so on should have a vote on that question too"
No of course not England should have a vote on whether we English want self determination through an English Parliament, English Executive and English First Minister!
An English parliament referendum across England is 10 years overdue. Scottish politicians should not be involved in running England for the same reasons you give concerning Italy etc.!

Jerry

"do you think the Spanish and the French and the Germand and the Poles and so on should have a vote on that question too? "

yes they should, individually on their own memberships, that is.

Re the British union, it is only fair that if Scotland is allowed a referendum on ending it (there would be no union if one party left so using the word "leaving" is inapropriate), then the other party to the union ie England should also have a referendum. By the way, that is Salmond's best way forward as Scotland is likely to vote FOR the Union and England is likely to vote for an end to it.

Remember, unlike Scotland where there was a national and very public debate on union in 1707, there was no such debated allowed in England. The Act was effectively guillotined and hurried through with minimal debate before opposition crystallised in the English parliament.The English outside parliament just heard about it later.

It was always the Scots who were more keen on union and the English who, while they looked at it, turned the idea down on several occasions. The last such time before the stitch up of 1707 was in 1702-3 when the Scots were very keen but the English negotiating team walked away as they couldn't see what was in it for England.

If the English people are ever consulted on this matter, unlike the Scots , they are very likely to answer with the same short answer they would have given in 1707

a great big NO.

daniel maris

Most people I know are only too eager for the Scots to get on and have a referendum and claim their independence. Why on earth would English people want to have anything more to do with this truculent and ungrateful nation? The Scots would probably be a lot happier forging Nordic and Auld Alliance links. And we would be a lot happier not to have Scotch carpet-baggers ruling over us. We'll be happy to pay over the odds to have rid of them. Remember at the last election the English voted Tory and only the Scots Labour block vote kept Blair and Brown in power.

britologywatch

Jerry is right: if one party to the Union (e.g. Scotland) leaves it, then the Union itself is dissolved. So the people of England, Wales and Northern Ireland should be consulted in a referendum as to whether they wish to continue in some form of political union or not if Scotland left. Indeed, I'm not sure there would be any alternative, from a constitutional point of view; otherwise, the British state simply ceases to exist.

On this analogy, if, by the UK leaving the EU, the EU itself would be broken up, you'd expect the people of France, Italy and Poland to be consulted on whether they wished to continue in some form of new EU.

tommyt

nice articel alex