Memo to Columnists: The EU does NOT have much in common with the USSR

Wilhelm

Alex squeeks '' The EU is not the EUSSR, damn it.''

Oh yes it is.

Oh no its not.

On yes it is.

Oh no its not.

Alex, this is getting silly now.

If you want England turned into a province and the English people enslaved to Brussels, you go right ahead, Alex but can you leave the Spectator readership out of your meglomania.

Nick Kaplan

"Sober advocacy rather than ranting and raving might be a better way forward."

And then everyone's articles can be as boring as yours!

I’m sure Janet doesn’t believe that the EU is much like the USSR but is there really anything that wrong about a bit of stylistic exaggeration to drive home the point about the anti-democratic nature of organisation that can do what it likes regardless of what the people think?

Get over yourself Massie!

daniel maris

Vivid imagery is about the only thing that will wake people up who are constantly having soporifics applied to them by people like Massie.

The question is this: is the EU a functioning democracy, or is it a vast inefficient, corrupt, unresponsive and sclerotic bureaucracy controlled by unelected officials to rule hugh chunks of our lives, often in highly arbitrary ways?

If it's not a democracy then Massie and others have no business going about defending it, or trying to divert our eyes from the reality of what it is.

One of its latest wheezes is to harmonise hate crime legislation. We know in some EU countries perfectly reasoned (and certainly impassioned) criticism of the religion (some say cult, some say political ideology) of Islam is a prosecutable offence. Is that what we are going to harmonise to? Should we be unconcerned?

Dr. Massie, please come forward with a generously etherised wad of cotton wool to dispel such concerns! I don't wish to be conscious for the next part of the operation...

TomTOm

anyone is free to leave

Of course you refer to the 1977 Constitution of the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics drafted at the behest of General Secretary of the CPSU by Leonid Brezhnev to fuse the post of President, then held by Podgorny with that of General Secretary of The Party.

Thus Party and State was fused in the leaders office once again

I recommend Art 72 of this Constitution:

Article 72. Each Union Republic shall retain the right freely to secede from the USSR.

It does not specify whether the modality of secession required the other states to agree, but the EU COnstitution des require ALL other states in secret session excluding the petitioning state to agree unanimously.

The USSR had a progressive attitude to such matters the EU has obviously taken to heart

In2minds

“Memo to Columnists: The EU does NOT have much in common with the USSR”

Well Henty Porter in the Guardian and Roger Scruton in the Times and me,at home, would disagree.

So memo to Massie, speak for yourself and not others.

Wattus Tyler

All I know is that in the USSR, if you had a vote, you could only vote for the Party.

In the EUSSR (that's right, Massie, the EUSSR) you can vote, but because of the policies of our three mainstream parties, you effectively only vote for the EUSSR Party.

Also, in the EUSSR you, as a citizen, do not have any say in who the President or Executive body (the Commission) will be.

Pravda itself called the EU the new Soviet Union. But just because you said that it isn't, well then it mustn't be.

THX1138

My housekeeper grew up in Romania under the rule of Nicolae Ceauşescu and has many harrowing stories to tell about really living under real tyranny.

To compare the EU to the USSR and called it the EUssr as many commentors do on these blogs, is as Alex said in a previous post:

"Done once it may be considered droll, done more frequently it makes you seem an unhinged idiot."

No only that, it is so disrespectful to people like my housekeeper who actually lived under these truly totalitarian regimes.. She loves the EU BTW.

Watt Tyler

p.s. Massie, I feel sorry for you that you cannot be angry about what has been done to you. SHould I call it Fisk-esque? Perhaps you feel that you deserve to have your freedom confiscated?

Mark M

"at the moment, there doesn't seem to be a majority in favour of withdrawing from the EU"

...really? I think you need to do a little more research.

Frank S

As one who thinks the EU is a blot of shame on the face of Europe (does that make sense?), I think Alex Massie is right to caution against over-doing any comparisons with the USSR. Some such comparisons may, however, be useful. The Pravda-like quality of the BBC for example, whereby one has to read between, behind, through, and beyond the lines to make sense of much that is published in a miasma of anti-American, anti-capitalist, anti-Conservative, anti-scientific (as in, for example, their promotion of 3rd science and 1st rate propaganda on climate variations), anti-Israel/Pro-Islam,anti-military, pro-EU,pro-UN,pro-Obama/anti-Bush, anti-free-thinking-in-general political correctness and intellectual/moral cowardliness. We also see the march of '1984' in the language and behavioural controls being sought, and a general sense that the state is the source of all solutions to all things, and admits of nowhere it is unwilling to intrude. Criticising the very existence of the EU is of course beyond the pale, as it was I imagine for the state in the former USSR.

teledu

No Alex, of course it's not anything like the USSR - as you well know. The EUSSR acronym is used to draw attention to the lack of any desire by those in power in the EU to let us plebs have a REAL say in its governance. (And the increasing lack of hope amongst the people that they can ever be heard) Understand? Some similarities at least then, yes?
It's a brief, acronym that immediately makes a point, hence its use. It's slightly more punchy than saying something like "The European Union of power without democratic representation, a group that waste our money but brook no criticism" don't you think?
We exaggerate in order to make a point - a not unreasonable point. You may be too young to remember, but most of us who voted in the last referendum thought it was all about joining a COMMON MARKET. We'd no idea what it would morph into and, if we did, would never have voted to join it in the first place. Perhaps we foolishy believed that we'd never have the sort of treacherous, lying weasel-like politicians that would let it get this far without our having a say. (And that goes for most of the MSM (can I use that acronym? Is that Okay?))
The people want a say, a vote, not too unreasonable that is it?
Our EU uber-elite may not have blood on their hands like the old Communist leaders, but, just like them, they sure as hell like the power and all the trappings of power with the minimum of interference from the plebs they rule over
PS are you secretly a member of the EUSTASI ?

Daniel Lionsden

"peaceful association of democratic countries (which, remember anyone is free to leave) " The same democratic countries which prohibited their electorate any right to vote against their centralisation agenda?
The comparison with the soviet bloc is a bit strong at present but the way things are progressing, in 10 years I'm not so sure it won't be accurate.

PAUL GILBOY

The difference Mr Massie between yourself and Janet Daley who’s essay I read this morning is that she is a professor of philosophy and your not, hence, the things she sees in the E.U and yourself, are entirely different.

The European Union is an undemocratic entity that has imposed a concept of what is right and what is fair that is entirely ideologically driven! Probably thought up by some one who had no friends as a teenager!
For example, Italian schools are denied exhibiting a cross for the sake of equality. As anyone can tell you, who has been to Italy the cross is central to their belief systems and heritage and, near enough, the entire population subscribe too it. But the Italian people are to be denied their beliefs and heritage, for the sake of conformity. This begs the question conform to what and to whom? How can an entire society conform with some spotty Herbert who dislikes himself, fitting in with his neuroses!

We ourselves have had our ancient right of liberty denied by PC diktats. The ‘sovereign individual’ central to our law and legislation has been eroded in order to conform to the Brussels politburo.

Nonsense is the consequence if this ideology, as we are no starting to see when it works in practice. Exactly the same nonsense that people had to endure under the soviets. Until they stood up and said with little more than a whisper … This is silly really!! And walked away.

Rhoda Klapp

One thing which IS like the USSR is the frequency with which Alex Massie refers to those who do not agree with him as mad. This is a cheap nasty device much used by lefties past and present. If you think you are right, make your case. It is not big or clever to use ad hominem rebukes to your opposition. One can only presume that reasoned argument is beyond Dr M. Oh, and reading comprehension too, judging by the number of times he mis-takes the opponent's argument to make his cheap points.

Michael Booth

Memo to Fifth Columnists - always vote Labour

Scottish Cheeselog

Well .... Pravda thinks there are a lot of similarities ... and don't you think they're perhaps a little better qualified to judge?

http://english.pravda.ru/opinion/columnists/04-11-2009/110289-berlin_wall-0

Gordon Brown

Well done Alex, you keep it up. At this rate your seat in the House of Lords is virtually assured!

daniel maris

Rhoda Klapp -

An excellent point - and it seems another columnist has been using the same accusation of mental instability to make their case for them (referring to Clive Davis). This is also used in an attempt to divert people from giving serious consideration to Melanie Phillips' views.

I don't think that to argue against the EU I need to accuse Ken Clarke of being a manic depressive or Shirley Williams of being a paranoid schizophrenic. I can see how they have come by their views and I can see that the EU is a perfectly viable society (just as Iran's Islamic Republic is, and just as North Korea's Juche society is).

The point is there is a serious argument to be had. To make reference to the USSR is a way of shining a light on the EU's lack of democracy and supranational aspirations. Is "communitaire" so different from "communist"? - you decide.

ndm

If this was a typical example of Janet Daley's output then it is not her euro-scepticism that is of apocalytpic dimension but her stupidity. Her identification of the oppression of the Warsaw Pact with that of the European Union is utter lunacy.

ndm

Writing in The New Republic on how the European Union has become the best democracy promotion organization the world has ever known, Joshua Tucker reminds us why we should ignore the siren calls of petty-fogging little Englanders like Janet Daley:

The simple answer for why the EU has had such a profound impact on post-communist states' political development is that it requires countries to meet numerous membership criteria, one of which is a democratic system. But, more complexly, this is probably what social scientists refer to as an endogenous relationship: Yes, the EU is more likely to admit democracies, but countries with a realistic chance of getting into the EU are also more likely to build and maintain a democratic system, precisely because it eases entry into the EU. The key here is that EU membership provides (or, at least, is perceived as providing) a host of benefits to its new member states. These benefits--which are extended over time, not necessarily right when a country enters the EU--include unfettered access to European markets, the opportunity for a country’s citizens to travel and work in other member states, and generous amounts of development aid. And, beyond these tangible economic benefits, for countries that spent the post-WWII era on the "outside" of Europe looking in, the chance to finally be on the "inside" may be too good to pass up.

Indeed, far from mocking Germany and France for their central role in the development of the European Union we should be thanking them and their citizens for their selfless leadership of the project.

Rhoda Klapp

ndm, do you not think that there is a serious lack of democracy in the EU? On the supra-national scale it does not exist. It may well require countries which join to be demcracies, but there is no voice for the people to affect the decisions of the Union as a whole. The way it works makes the EP a joke. It has no power to legislate in the way we understand it in the nations. It has no parties, merely party groupings, which do not campaign, have no manifesto, are not fixed, and represent no identifiable group of people. Witness the recent european elections, and the way the media handled them here. Everything was presented only in UK terms. No EU issues were covered at all, except possibly who the tories would sit with. Not their policies in the parliament. That being indisputable (?) you can't say we had a proper election to a democratic parliament. The fact that EU nations are democracies is not relevant, if the institution as a whole is not. And maybe cannot be, for lack of a demos in any meaningful sense. No the EU is an unaccountable bureaucracy. As such it is not an acceptable way forward.

Of course, even if it were a democracy I would prefer not to be a member. Does that mean I am a little englander? Are you not capable of making an argument without name-calling?

Nicholas

Protest comment on behalf of all commentators stereotyped as being insane, window-licking, right-wing, ranting, foaming, foam-flecked, aged, racist, Daily Mail reading, Little Englander, etc., etc.

Sid James

A Pravda editorial recently came to the conclusion that there were many similarities. It's safe to assume that Pravda knows what it's talking about regarding totalitarianism.

Dorothy Wilson

Dr Massie and ndm, quote from Der Spiegel magazine:

"Germany's Federal Constitutional Court proclaimed the truth on June 30. It ruled that the EU of the Lisbon Treaty does not satisfy the minimum requirements for a democracy of the type described in the German constitution, and the European Parliament is effectively little more than an expensive, Machiavellian glass facade."

And yet the EU political class pushed Lisbon through.

Jack

Vladimir Bukovsky, an exile from the USSR who was a political dissident and prisoner of a variety of unpalatable Soviet institutions, doubtless fully appreciates the gravity of any comparison between the EU and the regime which tormented him. And yet he seems quite happy--keen, even--to make it.

What makes Alex Massie think they know any better than him?

Rhoda Klapp

To return to the subject, albeit a little late. Obviously the EU = USSR thing is a rhetorical device, an exaggeration. The EU does not enforce its hegemony with arms. It does not harry its citizens for disagreement, much. A question that occurs to me is, does it actually have powers in reserve which would allow it to do so. The answer I don't know, perhaps someone better informed can tell me.

I am not too happy about the way it handled that Austrian thing, where a right-wing government legally elected was ruled out of court. I am deeply suspicious of the european arrest warrant with all it entails. I seem to recall reading that criticism of the EU itself might be an arrestable offence. Couple all that with the possibility of police powers across borders and you have the mechanisms for tyranny. Why would they need those provisions if no tyranny was envisaged? Of course only the paranoid would look at it that way. We have never seen, say, laws purported to be anti-terrorist misused by government to oppress ordinary people, have we?

Andy Carpark

Ms Klapp: 'I seem to recall reading that criticism of the EU itself might be an arrestable offence.'

Yes, quite possibly in an article in the Spectator by Leo McKinstry around 2002/03, which I took the trouble to cut out and keep. If I can retrieve it from home, I shall cull the main points and post them on the Wall if you would find it helpful. A regular columnist tells me that there are plans for an online archive but let's not hold our breath.

Yam Yam

The difference between the EU and the USSR is just a matter of time.

Ronnie

Wilhelm.

'Alex but can you leave the Spectator readership out of your meglomania.'

Hilarious! Wilhelm thinks he speaks for the Spectator readership while accusing someone else of meglomania. Singularly lacking self-awareness but very entertaining.

It is clear that there exists a huge democratic deficit at the center of the EU project. Where else would an entire country be made to hold a second referendum because the first one did not provide the correct answer? There you see a very concrete parallel with the concept of democratic centralism from the Soviet era.

Rhoda Klapp

On the strict issue of whether criticising the EU is a crime, it appears from a quick google that it is not, unless you are an employee. I can't remember any of my past employers having the power to drag me before the European Court for moaning, but never mind. In real life the powers of the European Arrest Warrant seem to be sufficient to work a nice little tyranny. Anyone know whether the oaths taken by the police, army etc will be changing for the Lisbon Treaty? That would be a step too far.

ndm

Witness the recent european elections, and the way the media handled them here. Everything was presented only in UK terms. No EU issues were covered at all, except possibly who the tories would sit with. Not their policies in the parliament. That being indisputable (?) you can't say we had a proper election to a democratic parliament.

The EU has no control over how the British media treats the European elections and, of course, the British media is going to present it in UK terms. This is no different to the manner in which local American newspapers handle congressional elections - as local events indirectly affecting national politics.

The further reality is that elections are nearly always about economics - if the British economy were humming along right now I suspect Gordon Brown would not be in the pickle he is. Since Britain (unwisely) is not in the Euro system, the European Union does not have that much influence on the British economy. It has no power to modify interest rates, it has no power to modify exchange rates, it has almost no power to modify tax rates. Given that the EU has little power over the day-to-day lives of Britons it is not surprising therefore that the British public has little interest in the EU elections. Consequently, I find it ironic that Rhoda Klapp uses the very weakness of the European Union to attack it as being too strong.

The idea that parties may form allegiances following an election is somewhat alien to the British political system - notwithstanding the perennial suggestions that the Lib Dems (or, even, the SNP) will somehow hold the balance of power following a close election. That this is alien is the result of the democratic deficit that afflicts British politics in which the two large parties are constantly overrepresented in Parliament.

During the entire course of its history there has been a struggle over whether powers reside with the United States of America or the indivdual states. In the US, the Federal Government remains stronger than the individual States primarily because it has more money and can implement policies and actions that affect the entire country. (And if people in the South don't like it they should perhaps have thought of it when they continued to treat African Americans badly after the Civil War.) Furthermore, regardless of the desires of the people living in the States large businesses prefer a single regulatory climate.

And so it will be in Europe. There will be a continuing struggle over States Rights - or Subsidiarity. Britain can decide to participate in the European Union as member of good standing - joining the Eurozone, etc - or it can sit on the sidelines like a whining child as it has done for most of its membership and not contribute much of anything but misery. That, surely, is the best and easiest way to be minimize British influence in the European Union.

I find the so-called Eurosceptics get off way too lightly with their complaints about Europe. Indeed, it is far too easy to be a Eurosceptic because Eurosceptics are never called on to explain precisely what Britain's place in the World will be following a British withdrawal from the European Union. I suspect Britain would find itself with Iceland in the European Economic Area - forced to implement many of the policies of the European Union but with little influence on the decision-making process.

And were the Eurosceptics to be successful in their efforts to pull Britain out of the European Union, just for one day they would be able to stand on Beachy Head and wave five pound notes with the Queen's head on while watching the the troops return from Dunkirk, sorry Brussels. And there will once again be a Little England.

Rhoda Klapp

ndm, it ain't a democracy. Plainly. Its powers are vested in the commissioners. They rpose legislation. There are lobbyists and special interests, and the people don't get a look-in. The legislation hurts us in ways we know, and ways we don't. They have the power of the EAW to send you to some other country to answer for breaking a law you never heard of while in the UK. They have a massive bureaucracy which is sufficiently evil in itself to justify our leaving. They do not have the mandate of the people of the UK. If it's all such a great idea, why not consult us? And the status of the UK out in the cold? Well, like China, Japan, the US, free to operate without entangling alliances. Nothing to be scared of. The little englanders are the ones who think we can only succeed as part of a foreign empire. I think we managed before we joined, and will manage afterwards. We are proven able to stand on our own two feet.

ndm

And the status of the UK out in the cold? Well, like China, Japan, the US, free to operate without entangling alliances. Nothing to be scared of. The little englanders are the ones who think we can only succeed as part of a foreign empire. I think we managed before we joined, and will manage afterwards. We are proven able to stand on our own two feet.

Britain is closer in population to Iceland than it is to any of China, Japan or the US - and its influence on the World would be closer to that of Iceland were Britain to leave the European Union. That is the only game in town for a Britain that has lost its own Empire.

The reality is that until the Second World War the Empire allowed Britain to fight above its weight in business and war. The Second World War brought the beginning of the end of the British Empire and the benefits it brought to the British economy. And Britain went into economic decline relative to countries like Germany and France leaving Britain little real choice but to try to join the Common Market. Unfortunately, this was so delayed that it finally occurred in 1973 simultaneously with the first oil shock and the inflation brought on by it. The tragedy was that the Common Market bore the brunt of the blame for an inflation that was in fact systemic, and that blame diverted the attention of Britons away from its real cause.

The days when Britons could stand proudly on their little isle holding two cans of pink paint are long gone. A Britain seeking respect in the future will need to have its citizens stand with both feet firmly planted in Europe.

Ross

The EU is a menace to both democracy and individual freedom. People's voice? If it speaks out of turn, silence it - i.e. no referenda allowed again for the French or Dutch, because they defied the ruling clique. Eire - make 'em vote again till they knuckle under. Free speech - stamp on critics of PC 'morality.' Opposition in EU 'parliament' - fiddle the rules to keep 'em down. Politburo -welcome unrepentant communists, exclude anyone like that Italian nominee who challenged elite orthodoxy.

Rhoda Klapp

ndm, you come out with fearful defeatist stuff like that, and I'M the little englander?

Influence? In the EU? It's not only not very true, it would also be illegal for any commissioner to act in any way to put his own country's interest ahead of the EU as an entity. What good is this influence doing us? How am I supposed to get my piece of influence? What good is it going to do me? Can one intrusive regulation be reversed? When is it going to stop being an interfering bureaucracy?

Avudale

ndm, the problem with the logic that Britain can only have "influence" if it is in the EU is premised on the principle that Britain wants or needs any "influence".

I would be quite happy to have no influence anywhere at all, and live in a free land, than be entangled in the undemocratic bureaucracy of Europe.

That withstanding, you neglect the importance of the Commonwealth, which alone is worth its weight in gold and every other European country can only look on with dreaded eyes of envy, but again is unnecessary.

A fully free country of Britain, free of the nagging ideology of Europe pushing itself upon us, is invaluable. Why we should be forced to accept European socialism in order to trade freely is insane.

I agree the EU is great for ex-communist countries and all of Europe, but NOT Britain.

It's like if the US outsourced its indepndence in foreign policy, justice, lawmaking, immigration and financial regulation to Mexico, with the highest court in the Land in Bogota.

One thinks a fair few Americans would be rather upset at such a situation.

Ditto Britain.

But what's the solution? One thinks emigration to the US, as in times of past, may be in order for those who cherish freedom and independence from the State.

Wilhelm

Ronnie me old son

99% of sensible people like Europe but they dont want the EUSSR super state.

There are exceptions of course, kooky Alex Massie and ndm with hokey ideas. You gotta a fell sorry for them.

Wilhelm

Alex Massie has sold out his own country Scotland to westminster.

So it stands to reason that he's going to sell out England to Brussels.

Like all liberals and leftists they are at heart, internationalists, one worlders, marxists.

Thems the facts.

Wilhelm

Ronnie

'' Wilhelm thinks he speaks for the whole of the spectator readership. ''

Yes.

Patrick Mountain

The very curious thing about the EU is that despite being entirely Socialistic in aspiration and performance; suffused with welfarism and aplogetic to the workshy and the indolent it still receives support from too many Conservatives. My great regard, for instance, for Ken Clarke, has been substantially diminished by his attitude to Europe.

Ronnie

'99% of sensible people like Europe but they dont want the EUSSR super state.'

God help me Wilhelm but I agree with you on this one point, you want to retract it while there is still time?