Without War We Are Nothing. Apparently.

C.E.Chase

The fall of the Berlin Wall represents much more to we Americans these days than perhaps it does to our European friends. 'Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall" was a war cry in itself, stated by a President who fought the Cold War without ever exchanging a single shot with his enemy. The exchange was all verbal. The wars we are fighting these days are not verbal. They include IED's, Daisy bombs, unmanned drones, satellite guided weaponry and lets not forget video tapes, backpacks and commercial airlines for the more timid fighters(Osama Bin Laden, Daniel Pearls killers)and the victims of those tactics: unarmed workers/villagers/women/children/18yr old soldiers on their first tour of duty etc. So the significance of a war being fought solely with words rather than blood is..... significant. Most of the Cold War was unseen because most of it took place behind a wall. Walls represent many things but mostly they are exclusive: put up to protect ones property, people, private club or in this case, Communist run countries. Like North and South Korea, Eastern and Western European brothers and sisters, friends and acquaintances were separated. Behind this wall, these captives were held for nearly 45 years, victims of a ruthless regime, victims of a war that never ended for them and seemingly went into hibernation for those on the other side of it. President Reagan was all too aware of the American blood that had been shed during World War II. At the end of that war, the Soviets built their wall and Europe, broke and decimated but for the Marshall Plan was incapable of rescuing its neighbors from the tyrants grip. So the victims languished. When the Cold War ended, there was an exodus. Its not that we need wars to define us or keep us from moral or political decline/destruction, as Mr. Kaplan states. We just need to recognize them before they land on our doorstep, recognize the signs of imminent approach and be prepared to fight those wars when our peace and prosperity is threatened, in whatever context, rather than look the other way(Yugoslavia for example) because we like the feeling of peace and prosperity better - that peace came at a cost....have you seen "Band of Brothers?"

Subrosa

A couple of points where I disagree Alex. You say the absence of peace and prosperity for much of the twentieth century was marked and indeed it was.

This century the absence is also marked although, because we have not been threatened with invasion by another country, there is presently no visible signs on our streets to say we are at war. The war is far enough away for most of us to ignore it, with the exception of the regular media announcements of soldiers killed.

Europe will have the chance to prove its worth to Britain in future years because Iraq and Afghanistan will never forget their invaders and with Britain and the US seen as the main ones, they will pay the price if the Muslim countries ever decide to be friends.

They never will you may say. I never thought Britain would ever be part of a Europe in which Germany was a main player either. Sixty years isn't a long time in the great scheme of things.

ndm

The vacuous nature of the comment by C.E.Chase is demonstrated by his final question ....have you seen Band of Brothers?

Chase starts with:

The fall of the Berlin Wall represents much more to we Americans these days than perhaps it does to our European friends. 'Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall" was a war cry in itself, stated by a President who fought the Cold War without ever exchanging a single shot with his enemy. The exchange was all verbal.

This is all fanciful stuff. Reagan's arming of the mujahideen in Afghanistan was how the cold war was fought - and a direct result was the blowback of the 9/11 attacks and the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq that followed them. Thousands of Americans and hundreds of thousands of non-Americans died as a result of Reagan's cold-war folly.

A primary cause of the difference in the way Europeans and Americans view war is that, unlike Europe, the United States itself has not significantly suffered the consequence of war for almost 150 years. The American people may see their servicemen and women come home in body bags but as a people they have not suffered war in the way Europeans have suffered. The carnage of the two World Wars showed Europeans the folly of war

This is a folly that many on the American right have yet to understand. There is, of course, no penalty for their error - regardless of how wrong they were with Iraq they still have their prestigious op-ed jobs and their fellowships at think tanks. And until there is a consequence for their failure they will continue to push for war as the universal solution. For them it is always the feast of Saint Crispen - although they seem to side with the French:

To horse, you gallant princes! straight to horse!
Do but behold yon poor and starved band,
And your fair show shall suck away their souls,
Leaving them but the shales and husks of men.

Rhoda Klapp

Why do Americans think they know about 'Europe'? They seem to sit in Washington or NY and know all about what goes on here. They generalise and theorise without any interference from fact or truth.

"Well, Rhoda, what do you know about Europe, or America for that matter?" they might reply.

I don't. I know I don't. The more I find out the less I know. That's why I am so suspicious of those who peddle purported wisdom.

Beefeater

ndm:

So now the "carnage of the two World Wars" is an object lesson in "the folly of war"?
Germany, France, Italy, Britain, Russia all learned the same lesson did they? All equally foolish? Perpetrators and defenders, victor, vanquished and victims all equal now. All suffered terrible loss. Dresden. But now all differences in national morality are sunk in the great lake of Europe. The Germans can wash away guilt, the French, shame. Together they can dominate Europe most effectively as Europeans not as competing empires.

So what to do with totalitarian threats? Let the Americans deal with it, egged on by the foolish American right. Iran lost a million people in recent hostilities with Iraq. Do you think it needs a little more carnage before it recognizes the folly of war? (Its leader actually does not recognize that a significant part of the carnage of WW2 happened at all.)

The lessons of history get ever-easier, it seems.

Sir Graphus

A point crudely made, but I take it all the same. Would you go to war to defend the EU? Furthermore, can you imagine any other EU nations being seriously committed to sending troops to a difficult war? The Dutch? French? Italians? Constitutionally, I don’t think the Germans are allowed to send anything more hostile than a catering corps abroad, and the Irish have a specific opt out from the Lisbon treaty about their neutrality (so no support from them, then).

If the EU purports to be a state, observers are right to ask, if it’s prepared to stand up for itself. Kaplan’s observation is correct, that the EU is totally unprepared to exist in anything other than a benign environment, both militarily and economically. His derision is deserved. If the EU were personified, it would be a flabby effete creature, whining that his wine wasn’t chilled enough, demanding that someone else defend him from the vicious bar brawl that just broke out.

Grassmarket

You are not going to get away with just wiping Yugoslavia aside like that. The violent break-up of Yugoslavia was the single most serious problems that the EU has ever faced, and they completely, comprehensively and absolutely failed it, precisely because they were decadent, complacent and flabby. If anything Kagan and the neo-Cons let off Europe too lightly here. Every single time a European stands up in an international forum to pontificate about any subject whatever, they deserve to have Yugoslavia thrown in their faces.

Cuffleyburgers

Alex - the EU is irredeemably complacent. It exists to flatter the hubris of a self-selecting transnational "elite" which has managed to hoodwink, bribe and threaten politicians over the decades to succumb to this greta anti-democratic monster.

You know as well as I do that there is not a molecule of democratic DNA in this creation which has no interest in the wellbeing happiness or freedom of its serfs over and above the bare minimum required to engender the complacency which will enable its continuation.

This compacency is now under threat from the crisis and from various global issues such as iran, jihad and so forth, and in response to this stress, faul lines will inevitably deveop. These will be exacerbated by the economic problems which europes high tax/low labour flexiility problems, and will be even further if it turns ots back on its one real achievement, the single market.

As with all such aggregations this one will collapse, hopefully with only limited bloodshed. The date of this seems to me for the reasons I give above to be approaching.

Snowman

Sir Graphus, Grassmarket and Cuffelyburgers have my vote.

To even hint that Europe has been free from the human madness of the 1st half of the 20th century because of the EU smells of more than a simplified distortion of history. Even a quick glance at the defense budget of the US vis-a-vis Europe’s will tell you whom Europe should thank for the bloated public sector sinecures. Also, had it not been for the intervention of the maligned Americans, there would be hardly a Muslim sole left in the neck of the woods that’s former Yugoslavia.

ndm: abit of George Orwell for you: ‘In real life we don’t chose between good and evil, but between two evils.’ Which of the two evils – the totalitarian USSR or the mujahedeeds - should have Reagan chosen then? Easy to say today, is it not? In investment banking it’s called ‘broking backwards’. Deadly accurate, but totally useless

C.E.Chase

ndm might believe that Reagans arming the Mujahadin against the Soviets brought an end to the Cold War but rather it was the collapse of the Soviet economy.

Reagan had persuaded the Saudi Arabian oil companies to increase oil production to 3x their output. Oil was the main source of Soviet export revenue. They couldn't compete. Nor were they able to compete with the US in an escalating arms race which brought Gorbachev and Reagan to the negotiating table.( Wikipedia's definition of the COLD WAR, not yours )The Soviet/Afgahn war was costly in lives and dollars on both sides. But the end of the Cold War and the Fall of the Berlin Wall was a direct result of a new more openminded Soviet leader, a collapsing soviet econmy, a persistant US president/administration and the desire for freedom from the people living behind that wall(glasnost, perestroika)
As for my "vacuous" "Band of Brothers" remark, I was referencing the World War II miniseries that Speilberg and Tom Hanks produced not Kenneth Branaghs "Henry V - Band of Brothers". But we "happy few" enjoyed that one too...!

ndm

So what to do with totalitarian threats? Let the Americans deal with it, egged on by the foolish American right.

We could do with totalitarian states what we do with the health crisis in Africa that kills far more people - and that is nothing. Human rights organizations rarely call for military intervention in a country because they understood the catastrophic consequences of war. I have little doubt that the lives of far more people would have been improved had the United States not squandered three trillion dollars fighting a war of choice in Iraq but spent a fraction of that amount combatting disease in Africa.

The high point of Reagan's militaristic adventure has to be the invasion of a British colony - Grenada - because it was such a threat. As Tony Benn pointed, out the whole of Britain is closer to Moscow than any part of Grenada is to the United States.

There are a number of reasons why the United States is far more willing to undertake military (mis)adventures than are Europeans. Neither the United States nor Europe wanted European nations to have strong militaries after WW2. The US because it did not want a resurgent Europe posing any threat to its status as a superpower. It does not want, for example, a Europe capable of invading the Occupied Palestinian Territories and pushing the Israeli occupiers and colonists out. And Europeans were happy to demilitarize their continent after decades of horrific carnage. (Remember, remember the 11th of November.)

No less important in the political context of the US is that the ability to wage miltary adventure is almost the sole power the President has that is not subject to the whims of Congress. We have all seen over the last few months the difficulty Presidents have in getting legislation through Congress. Frustrated by failure, too many American Presidents thrill to military adventure where they can finally remind themselves that they lead a superpower.

ndm

ndm: a bit of George Orwell for you: ‘In real life we don’t chose between good and evil, but between two evils.’ Which of the two evils - the totalitarian USSR or the mujahedeeds - should have Reagan chosen then? Easy to say today, is it not? In investment banking it’s called ‘broking backwards’. Deadly accurate, but totally useless

George Orwell is becoming a bit of a cliche. I much prefer Albert Camus and Vasily Grossman both of whom reported on the war while Orwell sat comfortably propagandizing in London.

We did not have to choose between the totalitarian USSR or the mujahideen - we could have and should have chosen neither. Instead we made the false choice that the enemy of our enemy is our friend - a choice that, in retrospect, was almost as disastrous as the false choices that led up to WW1. Indeed, this choice might yet be even more disastrous if it leads to a third World War - which seems to be the goal of far too much of the right-wing commentariat.

Snowman

ndm @ 6.52:

Should we then close our eyes to evil altogether? Is this your message?

On Africa: In 1984, a well-know British journalist visiting Ethiopia, a country of some 50mn people, sent out an urgent message: ‘Please help, 4mn people are starving.’ Hundreds of millions of dollars in aid, loans, other assistance poured in, and an Irish rock star shouted ‘give us your f…g money’. The same journalist went to the country again in 2004. By then, Ethiopia had some 60mn people. His message? ‘Please, help, there are over 12mn people starving here.’ From less than 10% to more than 20% of the Ethiopian population dying of hunger in just 20 years thanks to Western ‘support’. Does this tell you anything?

ndm

Snowman asks:

Does this tell you anything?

Damn right it does. It is hard to get peace right and even then it is much fracking harder to get war right. Better then to focus on getting peace right.

Zhu Bajie

C.E.Charles thinks no blood was shed in the Cold War! Boy, is he mistaken. Has he never heard of Korea or Viet Nam? Not to mention any number of bloody covert actions around the world.

The more the USA becomes like the EU, the better.

E. Marino

To Zhu Bajie- I think C.E.Chase's point is salient, and yours is intellectually dishonest. The wars in Vietnam and Korea were against communist aggression, and fought primarily against the Koreans and Vietnamese. The US did not engage the Soviet Union directly. Had it done so, the scale of war fought in the Southeast Asia conflicts would have paled in comparison to a conventionally (or nuclear) fought war between two super powers.

As for your last comment about your desire for the USA becoming more like the EU, all I can, as an American citizen, I hope the day never comes. So many Americans, myself included, believe that Europe's failed socialistic policies have contributed greatly to the demise of a once vibrant patchwork of European communities who possessed a strong sense of identity. What does Europe stand for today? Equality? As American's we are given three pillars that make us distinctively different from our European brothers and sisters. We have "Liberty", "In God We Trust", and "E Pluribus Unum". The day we decide to give those up for your perceived EU benefits, is the day that America will be lost forever. No thank you!

Vic Anderson

Yes, war and oppression within and without are necessary to sustain the equability of the warfare state. War is Peace. Orwell.

Pessoptimist

E. Marino: On Europe having demised from
"a once vibrant patchwork of European communities who posessed a strong sense of identity"......What history text are you reading? Maybe you're going way back to paleolithic times when tribal cultures were able to develop in relative isolation and maintain their own identities.....my gosh the history of Europe is one of almost perpetual warfare, go back just six hundred years and see nation and empire building first within Europe, later globally....The bodies stacked up along the way would probably pave a broad boulevard to the moon.....Anyway, the EU of today strikes me more like the United States at its very beginning - its strength lies in the independence of its member states; the central government draws its limited power by consensus from its members, a very messy process as we've noticed.....Two hundred thirty three years after its creation the United States seems to have progressed into a mirror image of those European empires from which it sprang but vowed never to emulate.....But then it has been a long stretch since 1776.

Beer Moth

Perhaps a little off beam Doc but might I ask why 'Europe' is stubbornly denied a capital letter?

J. Christensen

It is quite a surprise to observe so many commentaries born out of a conviction of supremacy. Perhaps that is the character trait from which Americans incessantly are prone to overwhelmingly crush even a mere possible threat, like Iraq, or a still further irrelevant one like Afghanistan. After all, they would have delivered Bin Laden, if the US would prove his guilt. Such an obscene demand for fairness from the Übermensch is enough reason to start a decade long war!

Unfortunately such a mindset overlooks facts at whim, like the one of the complete LACK of a serious Al Queda threat from poor and lightly armed people counting in a lesser number than 1000 according to many estimates.

The THREAT seems entirely to be to make Americans seem stupid and not always on top of everything.

Probably that accounts for the bizarre fact, that iraqis by the deaths caused by American aggression, obviously counts less than 1/300 the value of an American life as measured by iraqi losses vs. WTC losses on 9/11.

It is fairly obvious, that a serious lack of realism are distorting the American mind. Perhaps it is a interdependant spiritual phenomenon from the CEO's to be paid in billions of dollars for the job, REGARDLESS OF COMPETENCE. And in military adventures, the only measure is of the aspiration, not reality. Reason is an insult to His Grace, The Emperor.

Roger Sanchez

To E.Marino, perhaps you're living in a parallel world more akin to Disneyland. The EU compare to the US has been involve in one of the most devastated wars of all time,which happen to have taken place in Europe. The US wars have been acts of aggression by the USA all fought
abroad over an ideology(Communism) and for the last 20yrs or so, they been fought over an Imperialistic mind set. While Europe is trying to learn from history, the US is hell bend to repeat them over and over again. And if you think that Europe's 1000 yrs of War, terror, pillaging, slavery and theft on a grand scale is a past to be proud of? Just shows your arrogance & delusion. As for "Liberty" are you talking about liberty for Anglo-Saxons? because for over a hundred years or so under slavery and than "Jim Crow" there was no liberty for people of color in the USA. What "God" are you talking about, is it the "God Bless America" God? I didn't know that God had preference. And as for "E Pluribus Unum" I have no doubt that in todays US mind set, it stands for; of the many countries in the world we the USA are the best and most powerful! Go back to your text books and start to rewrite the true history of the USA and Europe, and maybe you will begin to realize why Europe is heading in a different path from the past.

Brattyandchips

Sir Graphus, to be fair the German catering Corps is quite hostile. A night of Bock and Awe with an elite German sonderschnitzelhaube unit will take the fight out of most men.