Clegg Wins, Brown Survives and Cameron Misses

Peter From Maidstone

It's clear that none of you at the Spectator know what you are talking about, and most of you are too pink to support Cameron in any case. What is the point in all these blog posts if you all disagree? You are saying he should have slain Brown, others that he needed to remain calm.

He can't win when you don't agree what he should have done anyhow!

Let's see how many people actually watched. And let's wonder whether most of those who watched even a bit of it actually learned anything about policy. If it is all just about appearance then it is not democracy and no-one wins - we all lose.

Jonathan Woolf

As a committed Tory, desparate to see Brown nailed, I was furiously disappointed at the number of times Brown was allowed to get away with murder - literally on the defence question.

No skewering of his economic illiteracy on his NI tax rise adding money to the economy (has anyone in the last 200 years of political and economic thought ever advanced the argument that a tax rise adds money to the economy and boosts recovery??); no mention of Brown cutting defence expenditure at a time of war, and helicopter numbers before it, and then lying about it to Chilcott; Cameron didn't even mention elected police commissioners and how they'll allow local voters to stop their police chasing traffic violations and thought crime.

However, people like me were not the audience - we'll vote Tory anyway. I wonder if the lack of aggression, the lack of attack on Brown, which was clearly a deliberate tactic, will play better with undecideds than the red meat of some fierce debating? Time will tell. I suspect that in reality these debates will make little difference, even to Clegg, because only the politically engaged whose votes are already decided will be that interested.

Tendryakov

"On immigration and crime all three men tried to out-populist one another".

You mean they showed signs that they had listened to ordinary people who don't live in Hampstead or the wide open spaces of the Scottish borders? Shock horror. Tell you what Mr Massie - every migrant I see in Brum, I'm going to tell them what a warm welcome they'll get in Hawick, Jedburgh and Selkirk.

Tendryakov

Alternatively, Mr Massie, you might prefer to come down and live in Brum. I can help you get settled in. Small Heath is delightful. One is completedly spared the sight of an ugly woman. They're all in niqabs. Do they have burqas up in Hawick?

King Prawn

Mr Massie, Cameron missed own goal after own goal.

On immigration while Brown was chuntering on about Non EU immigration, the main problem of EU immigration was not even mentioned.

On education, Cameron could have blasted Brown for his statist approach. On how everything is about fom filling. On how the Academies were aimed at getting schools away from local authority control and the first thing that Brown did was put the Academies to put them BACK under local authority control.

But the biggest opportunity was on the economy. When Brown was going on about the Tories taking £6bn out of the economy but not putting in place the NIC hike, Cameron should have said that there was no such thing happening and that the so called £6bn was being left in the economy and in the hands of the people who should be making the investments decisions, the entrepreneurs.

Cameron was very poor.

ndm

I just love all these whining racists. Here are the current demographics for the school we CHOSE to send our son to next year:

Latino - 10%
White - 3.7%
African-American - 6.1%
Chinese - 60.9%
Japanese - 0.5%
Korean - 0.6%
Philipino - 5.8%
Other - 11.8%

There are currently 75 white students out of 2031 students and the absolutely appropriate response is - who cares. Anything else is bigotry.

ndm

Tendryakov writes:

-- One is completedly spared the sight of an ugly woman. They're all in niqabs.

I don't know about ugly women in Small Heatg but I do know about posting ugly people on this blog and one of them goes by the oh-so-English handle of Tendryakov.

Peter From Maidstone

ndm, why are you here? You are clearly not a conservative so why post here? If you are just a troll then do please move along.

John David Barnett

Tendryakov talks sense and asks some pertinent questions.

If it's bigoted and racist to regret the colonisation of our country, then perhaps racism and bigotry aren't such bad things after all.

Ndm has his own views and is entitled to them. He may even be right, but does not need to be rude.

Michael Sweeney

I heard Cameron on BBC Radio Manchester this morning and he was everything he should have been last night - energetic, engaged, passionate, convincing. The format thwarted Cameron to a large extent. Brown kept on at him and Clegg was sitting pretty - aloof from their squabbling. Quite a few times Clegg said they'd cut £15bn but Brown kept on about the Tories taking £6bn out of the economy. This struck me as weird. I'd have like to see a bit more cross examination of each other rather than the over excited burbling that permeated much of the evening.

THX1138

Sully called it for DC too, perhaps the sight of a sane Conservative politician is too overwhelming for American pundits.

ndm

John David Barnett -

Tendryakov has his own views and is entitled to them. But when he expresses them in public he deserves to be called a racist.

ndm

Peter from Maidstone writes:

-- ndm, why are you here?

I came across blogs on The Spectator through that of Clive Davis - who I believe to have been one of the most interesting bloggers on the planet.

-- You are clearly not a conservative so why post here?

Although some members of my family are staunch conservatives - my mum was extremely active in her no-hope constituency - I have never voted for the Conservatives. This is a result of growing up in a time and place where the Conservatives were careless with its policies. I am, of course, precisely the type of voter the Conservative Party should be trying to win over - but, alas, it is too late now since I am no longer allowed to vote.

I have, however, been reading the collected thoughts of Alex Massie since long before his move to The Spectator. While I may not agree with everything he writes I certainly understand why a reasonable person might share all his opinions.

I do think that the British right needs a good magazine where the merits and demerits of policies can be debated and refined. And I think many of the writers at The Spectator, including Alex Massie, do a fine and reputable job of that. However, there is one Spectator blogger who appears to represent an ultra-right version of militant tendency and who has attracted a fairly large number of despicable commenters to the magazine. They are destroying the image of the magazine as a place where sane right-wing commentary can be read.

-- If you are just a troll then do please move along.

Describing my comments as trollish is sheer folly. As for moving along I am doing precisely that. What is it now - second to the left and straight on till morning.

I B Wright

Cammie is the choice of the silent majority.

After he wins, look for obama to decide the US needs to balance their support for the UK with their other interests.

Tendryakov

ndm: you must be in the USA, surely. No-one in Britain uses the term Latino.

ndm

-- ndm: you must be in the USA, surely. No-one in Britain uses the term Latino.

I was on a bus once when I overheard someone describing the inhabitants of Africa as African-Americans.

Tendryakov

I was on a bus once when I overheard someone describing the inhabitants of Africa as African-Americans.

Really? That's nothing. Walter, my pet lizard, plays the trombone in his spare time.

Aberdeen Angus

I just love all these whining racists. Here are the current demographics for the school we CHOSE to send our son to next year:

Latino - 10%
White - 3.7%
African-American - 6.1%
Chinese - 60.9%
Japanese - 0.5%
Korean - 0.6%
Philipino - 5.8%
Other - 11.8%

So you beleive race and ethnicity are uninportant. You CHOSE to send your son to a school that is 62% north east asian. Do you really beleive it is a coincidence that a school that has 62% north east asian is also a good school?

ndm

-- So you believe race and ethnicity are unimportant. You CHOSE to send your son to a school that is 62% north east asian. Do you really beleive it is a coincidence that a school that has 62% north east asian is also a good school?

Actually his primary school, which is much more in demand than his secondary school, has significantly different demographics:

Latino - 46.4%
White - 26.0%
African American - 7.2%
Chinese - 2.3%
Japanese - 0.4%
Philipino - 1.6%
Other - 5.4%
Did not state - 10.3%

David

On a completely superficial note, I find the sight of the three candidates in their nearly identical suits and solid ties, each matching the official color of their respective parties, a bit surreal, like little plastic figures rolling off an assembly line. I thought things were bad in the US in terms of political image consultants and their influence on candidates, but at least here it's still possible to see politicians whose neckware isn't always on message.

Peter From Maidstone

ndm, so you are not British, you are not Conservative, and you think that what Massie writes is interesting. That's pretty much a definition of a troll. And you haven't moved on yet. I think you'll find the New Statesman more your sort of publication.

ndm

Peter from Maidstone responds:

-- ndm, so you are not British, you are not Conservative, and you think that what Massie writes is interesting. That's pretty much a definition of a troll.

This has to be one of the more stupid comments I've read on Alex Massie's blog. I don't know what about finding Massie's thoughts interesting makes me a troll.

I will give him that I am not conservative but that surely provides no reason not to be interested in conservative thought. As to not being British - well, there, Pete from Maidstone is just making things up.

Aberdeen Angus

ndm- Firstly with reguards to your son's primary school I would not assume that a demographic mix that works well for one age group will necesarily work well for another. I don't know if you assume it either since you did not directly answer the question. Do you think it is a coincidence that a good school is 62% north east asian? Do you really think its results would be as good if, for example, the northeast asian and african-american percentages were swapped?

I notice you also use the common PC tactic of smearing your opponents 'whining racists', '[not] sane' etc. So 'conservative' ideas are fine as long as they conform to the dictates of PC , ie as long as ther are not really conservative, ie right-wing liberals.

This tactic of questioning the intelligence, morality and sanity of opponents is also something shared between PC and cults.

Aberdeen Angus

ndm - Redguarding your son's schools I would not assume that a demographic mix that works well in one age group would necessarily work well in another. I don't know if you would assume it either since you didn't answer the question. Do you think it's a coincidence that a good school is 62% north east asian?

I notice that in the absence of arguments you use the common PC tactic of attacking the character of your opponents 'bigoted', 'despicable', '[not] sane'. The common use of this tactic is something PC shares with cults.

Also, as many people do, you equate conservative with right-wing. I'm sure you are interested in reading about right-wing thought. You will not tolerate it however unless it conforms with PC, i.e. unless it is right-wing liberalism which is not the same thing as conservatism.

Tim Buck II

In the States, we've had similar "debates" going back to Kennedy-Nixon in 1960.

It would be hard to escape the conclusion that the overall impact on the quality of our leadership has been (and is) disasterous.

First, if a Democratic ham sandwich were to debate any Republican (even Abraham Lincoln) the New York Times would both proclaim the ham sandwich the winner and would even provide "instant poll" results from "debate experts" to support the assertion that the sandwich soundly beat Lincoln.

Second, in our last election Barack Obama almost certainly "won" over John McCain. It's not at all clear, at least to me, that having the superior debater in office is actually in anyone's (or the nation's) best interests. What one actually wants is someone with a fair amount of common sense and some experience at having accomplished something beyone working his entire life in government service.

Finally, I would guess that it will take somewhere around 20 years (or more) to recover from America's recent decision to elect the best debater. You might want to look for some other indicia of governmental competence.

I wish we had.

ndm

Aberdeen Angus asks:

-- Do you think it's a coincidence that a good school is 62% north east asian?

Yes.

School performance is conditionally independent of ethnicity - given wealth. The various ethnic groups have different wealth characteristics. Students from poor families perform worse than students from wealthy families. Consequently, although it appears that student performance depends on ethnicity it does so only through consideration of wealth. Once the wealth profile of the student body is known the student performance is independent of ethnicity.

Of course, parents don't know the wealth characteristic of a school so use a proxy for it - ethnicity.

ndm

Aberdeen Angus drones on:

-- Also, as many people do, you equate conservative with right-wing. I'm sure you are interested in reading about right-wing thought. You will not tolerate it however unless it conforms with PC, i.e. unless it is right-wing liberalism which is not the same thing as conservatism.

The word many is useless here. Conservativism is a right-wing political ideology. I would have thought respect for others - especially as regards innate traits like skin colour - to be an extremely conservative thought. I find it ironic, therefore, that the right mocks that respect as political correctness.

I see no reason, however, to respect bigots and racists of the type Melanie Phillips attracts to The Spectator. Her comment threads are a cesspit of foul and stinking bigotry. Unfortunately, some of that commentary slops into other blogs on the The Spectator website. It is appropriate to condemn it for what it is.

Aberdeen Angus

ndm - Yes...School performance is conditionally independent of ethnicity
... Once the wealth profile of the student body is known the student performance is independent of ethnicity.

That's an interesting claim. Do you have any evidence for it?

Conservatism is a right-wing ideology but that does not mean all right-wing ideology is conservative. With regards to respect you are taking the typical PC line that any who supposes that human diversity might be real is automatically disrespectful. PC aka Cultural Marxism is presented as simply a form of politeness. The most disrespectful and impolite comments on this thread have all come from you.

THX1138

Aberdeen Angus for evidence of ndm's claim read Freakonomics or wait for the movie.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1152822/

ed Lebanon

"What is the point in all these blog posts if you all disagree?"

Peter from Maidstone, something tells me you're having us on!