Worse Than A Crime, A Blunder

THX1138

Haim Watzman from :

http://southjerusalem.com/ is always worth reading

"Commandoes against Demonstrators? Israel Shoots Itself in the Leg–Again

Beefeater

"What astonishes is Israel's enthusiasm for rising to meet that provocation. Surely it was foreseeable that a raid in international waters could end poorly? Surely it was not impossible to predict that if violence broke out that Israel, fairly or not, would be considered the more culpable party?"

What is your evidence for Israel's enthusiasm ? It tried persuasion - promising to deliver the goods from Israel. It issued warnings that ships would not be allowed through the blockade. It waited to the last tactical moment (despite your breezy assertions that they could have waited until the waters were less international) for boarding. And then, most importantly, the Israelis did not want and did not anticipate violence. Operation Paintball hardly shows that the Israelis met the provocation with enthusiasm. The commandos were non-lethally armed and even when it was clear that it was an ambush and the commandos were being attacked, they cried out in affirmation of their orders: "Don't shoot, don't shoot."

Israel always predicts that they will be unfairly blamed for violence. Perversely, they continue to put their own survival as justification for violence as a last resort.

And how about an analysis of what Turkey has been up to and the enthusiasm with which it espouses humanitarianism?

Occasional Ostrich

So what were the Israelis supposed to do? Back off and let this convoy through? In the minutes before they boarded their options had been cut to 1. One regrets that there were deaths but, in a resisted boarding, the risk was unavoidable. And if no contraband is found, I'd watch the NEXT "Peace Convoy" VERY CAREFULLY!

Hugh

Poor Alex, always worried about Israel's PR ‘blunders’.

When you going to follow your mates Andrew Sullivan and Daniel Larison and grow a pair? What differentiates them from you is that they recognise what's going on with Israel, whereas you're all hand wringing and moral confusion.

ndm

-- Israel needs all the friends it can get

This may have been true decades ago before the Israeli colonization of the Occupied Palestinian Territories and wise observers were rebuffed in their attempts to warn Israel how inadvised this was. But now it is not that Israel needs "all the friends it can get" it is that Israel needs better friends. That was surely the point of Peter Beinart's article in the Daily Beast a couple of weeks ago. Israel has been badly served by its self-defined "friends" whose tolerance of and appeasement of continued Israeli oppression of the Palestinian people has encouraged Israeli malfeasance to the point where Israel now believes it can commit acts of piracy on the high seas. Regardless of whether their interest is racist (née tribal) or liberal internationalist (excluding Israel) these clowns have betrayed Israel just as they have betrayed an enlightened humanity.

The people of Israel need to be made aware that as a democracy they are responsible for the depravity of decades of Israeli governments and the oppression they visit on the Palestinian people. Never again means never again for Israel too.

THX1138

For a different take on the events in the Med check out The Flying Rodent..

" it's godawful, mutual death spiral... "

http://flyingrodent.blogspot.com/

Snowman

Alex, you are missing the point, the big one.

Israel may be awful: the Government corrupt, its policies towards the Palestinians harsh, close to inhuman and unworkable, her PR handling of events atavistic and counterproductive and stuff. All this matters only inasmuch the pseudo-liberal appeasniks in the West want it to matter. What truly matters is that the country’s a democracy. Those who live there are free to elect those governing them. You go live there, taste the fear, the uncertainty of tomorrow, and then talk.

The Middle East will not enjoy peace until Hamas and the other two factions, the proxy for the forces Allah determined to destroy the state of Israel, are removed by whatever means. Trust me, I know, I’ve checked.

ben

"Israel has the right to maintain a blockade of Gaza"? Really? Says who?

Beefeater

THX1138:

The "death spiral" is merely a twist on the old "cycle of violence" crap. And the bat you refer us to also seems to think that the world has not ever heard before that it is a evil Israeli government to blame.
Perhaps the bat (and you) were born yesterday.

Augustus

According to the Turkish foreign minister, Ahmet Davutoglu, the Israeli raid was 'like
9/11' for his country. Really? What tripe! Five of the ships obeyed as directed, and they all appear to have had knives, clubs and weapons, all for peaceful purposes. Yes, Israel is a democracy, but perhaps that is largely her undoing. Democracy by our standards doesn't suit a region determined one way or another to obliterate
that highly productive and hard-working little land between the river and the sea.
They could start by treating their enemies exactly the way they treat their own people who don't conform to everything their leaders command. And talking of proportionality, did you know that the Mullahs in Iran pay Hezbollah foreigners 200
euros per day to beat up demonstrators, while a teacher in Iran is paid 150 euros per month?

Robert Bruce Lewis

I don't think it was a "blunder" at all. I think it was a calculated decision by BOTH sides to play this for all it was worth, in terms of drumming up, among the "bases" of both parties, the maximum amount of sympathy--as well as support--for what both parties envision doing to each other in the immediate future. Sure, the "humanitarians" knew they'd be forcefully intercepted and impeded, but the Zionists ALSO craftily calculated the effect of their opponents' response; after all, there were ANY NUMBER of possible tactics they might have used in order to maintain their blockade: they could have sent frogmen into the water to jam the ship's propellors; they could have sent a large enough flotilla out to intercept and block the ship's progress. Yes, I AM suggesting to all of you that the Israelis wanted this to happen, TOO! Both sides are playing all of us in the West for for fools, in order to get as much as they can get out of us: the Palestinians want Israel's blockade of Gaza to discredit and isolate Israel and her people, but the Likudniks want "solidarity" and "unity" from their own people, and from American Jews, in order to force Obama's hand, to allow them to nuke Iran--and nuke Iran they most probably will do in the coming months, because the Americans will lose control of Iraqi airspace soon, and the IDF cannot get enough of Iran's nuclear assets to make the gambit worthwhile, without flying over American-controlled Iraqi airspace. People in the West should resolve--and soon--to wash their hands of both devious, fanatical and bloodthirsty peoples!

Linda Smith

ndn - what a load of codswallop!

DavidDP

As nuanced as ever, Alex.

I do hope the Israeli electorate realise that Bibi tends to leave them less well off; he really is the most abysmal leader.

AY

"..Experts warned Tel Aviv.."

That's Haifa, sorry.
The Capital of Israel.
Haifa.

ndm

Linda Smith writes"

-- ndm - what a load of codswallop!

I take the brevity of her comment as proof that she is unable to critique it. She, presumably, finds joy in being one of the "clowns [who] have betrayed Israel just as they have betrayed an enlightened humanity.

Beefeater

Linda Smith:

With his response, perhaps ndm fancies he is being a "better" friend to you. Feel the love. Savour the enlightened humanity.

kriss

The action of the 'passengers' tells me everything. It was a prepared propaganda battle - the fact that no Israeli was killed despite 'opportunity' is an extra proof. What good will it do to the Palestinians? I think - nothing! Israel is not in a position to lie down. And about Turkey? Europe: stop being naive and see Turkey for what it really is! Muslim country can never compatible with democracy!

ndm

kriss writes:

-- Europe: stop being naive and see Turkey for what it really is! Muslim country can never compatible with democracy!

Kriss, stop being a bigot.

Linda Smith

ndm is incapable of writing anything save codswallop. He's now asserting that kriss is a bigot for stating the logical fact that Islam in incompatible with democracy. Better study up on your Sharia law and take a gander at the Cairo Declaration of Human Rights in Islam of the 57 States of the OIC before posting up your crap, ndm.

ndm

The phrase "Islamophobic bigot" immediately comes to mind when reading Linda Smith's most recent comment. Of course, the phrase comes to mind whenever I read some observer rabbiting on about some aspect of an Islamic culture they clearly have little knowledge and even less understanding of.

I once lived in a country where the population was 20% catholic and I knew many catholics. However, I don't pop of inanities about Catholicism because I am wise enough to know my thoughts on Catholicism would be inane. Linda Smith would do well to achieve that wisdom.

Snowman

ndm @ 5.41:

you reckon Gaza has a democratic government then, do you?

What does your living in a catholic country have to do with Linda Smith’s point anyway? She merely posted a short critique of your earlier post, notice please ‘of your post, not of you’.

How do you propose we square the dichotomy that underpins the two opposing schools of thought? How do you align the square peg of man made laws with the hole of laws based on the interpretation of the Koran. Do enlighten us, please.

and please, make an argument and give up on labelling people, it kills any rational debate stone dead.

ndm

Snowman writes:

-- you reckon Gaza has a democratic government then, do you?

And there I thought a big part of the current problem was that somewhat unexpectedly Hamas won the last election in the Occupied Palestinian Territories. The problem with elections is that sometimes people don't like the winner - and that seems to be particularly true of elections in Muslim states. It is not as if the Israel, routinely described as the only democratic state in the Middle East, has demonstrated anything other than folly in its repeated barbarism towards non-Jews in "Greater Israel" (and the high seas).

Snowman's point about making an "argument" and giving up on "labelling people" is seriously misdirected since I made an argument only to be greeted with "codswallop." There is no arguing with a fool and even less with a bigoted fool.

Augustus

What people like ndm can't get into their brain is that the present day (post-1960s)
'Palestinians' have no historical connection
to Palestine whatsoever. A Palestinian folk
doesn't exist. When the Romans changed the name of Israel into Palestina the people who lived there were Jews, not Arabs. If ever there existed a truly Palestinian people they would have been of ethnic Jewish decent.

Snowman

ndm @ 8.37:

before the Red Menace of the East imploded those in charge used to get near 100% of the vote. Dead cert. Democratic election, was it?

In a democracy, the electorate has to have a choice, and those offering the choice must be free to talk to the unwashed. In the former Red East, the choice was not between party policies, it was between politicians, the policies were the same. In Gaza, if you choice is between one lot wanting to kill the Jews immediately, and another lot, longer in power and hence more corrupt, to do the same over time, well, not much of a choice, is there?

Most of the ordinary Palestinians, don’t know how many exactly, but recon over half for sure, would have the nasty Israelis rather than Hamas running the place. This comes not from the BBC or any other MSM. This comes from the horse’s mouth, although I doubt it would ever be said in public. One wants to live and hope everywhere, and the Palestinian unwashed ain’t any different.

Doesn’t look good down there, and I truly fear for the Palestinian unwashed. With people like you and the shouting others, they are but doomed.

You’ve ignored the dichotomy conundrum though, come on, have a go.

ndm

Augustus writes:

-- What people like ndm can't get into their brain is that the present day (post-1960s) 'Palestinians' have no historical connection to Palestine whatsoever. A Palestinian folk doesn't exist. When the Romans changed the name of Israel into Palestina the people who lived there were Jews, not Arabs. If ever there existed a truly Palestinian people they would have been of ethnic Jewish decent.

The Palestinians consider themselves a people and that is their right. We no more have the right to deny them the right to associate among themselves than we do to deny the right of Jews to associante among themselves. Regardless of what fans of Greater Israel claim the Palestinians of today are the descendents of people who have lived in that area for tens if not hundreds of generations. The idea that Palestinians have no historical connection to Palestine is a bald-faced lie as even a cursory look at the census figures for the last century could confirm.

The idea that the Hebrew Bible confers rights on Jews to takeover the land occupied by others for millenia is an affront to enlightened thinking. The partial displacement of the Palestinian was an unfortunate but necessary response to the horrors of the holocaust. The Western appeasement of the descent of Zionism into a militant nationalism and the horrors consequent to that militancy is possibly the greatest moral failure by the West in the last 65 years. And one of the consequences of that moral failure is the virtual holocaust of the Palestinians voiced by Augustus in denying their existence.

Augustus

What ndm means by 'virtual holocaust of the Palestinians' which I am accused of denying
I cannot fathom. But the area of modern Israel was a virtually abandoned desert, with some Jews, Christians, and some nomadic bedouin tribes, who even in their wildest dreams never thought of themselves as having a national identity. Grow up man!

ndm

Let's imagine that in the aftermath of the holocaust the United Nations decided to create the State of Israel in Golders Green. Further imagine that following the course of history the State of Israel occupied today the whole of England with more than 60M Jews living among a slightly smaller number of English. Then consider the effect of closing off large parts of rural England so that only Israelis may live there and the closing of the motorways to all but Israeli traffic. And all this with the unfailing support and appeasement of the only superpower in the World. That isn't too hard to imagine is it - it shouldn't stretch anyone's imagination.

Now read any post by Melanie Phillips discussing an England with only 4M Muslims and the disaster that has been for British society. (Ignoring the possiblity of conflicted loyalty from Melanie Phillips) I very much doubt that the response of her and her demented acolytes would be very different from that of Palestinians over the years. So why doesn't someone ask Melanie Phillips just how she would respond were England to be completely controlled by Muslims. After all she has no qualms in openly advocating and fully supporting the continued Israeli oppression of the Palestinian people.

Linda Smith

ndm your attempt at an "analogy" has no legs. The United Nations had no power to create the State of Israel in Golders Green after the Holocaust because Great Britain was (is)a sovereign state.

Linda Smith

ndm, quit the bullshit.

"This has nothing to do with the "rights" and "freedoms" of the "Palestinians", who would be oppressed and neglected by whatever Arab state (probably a Greater Syria) that arose on the ruins of Israel (and probably Lebanon and Jordan too). It is the Muslim belief that no territory, however small, should be conceded by Islam to be ruled by non-Muslims."

http://hitchensblog.mailonsunday.co.uk/2010/06/the-joys-of-selective-outrage.html

I recommend Peter Hitchens excellent article on Islamists and their lefty supporters. Explains ndm to a "t"

ndm

Linda Smith writes:

I recommend Peter Hitchens excellent article on Islamists and their lefty supporters.

Even now I'm cowering in front of his towering intellect.

ndm

Linda Smith writes:

-- ndm your attempt at an "analogy" has no legs. The United Nations had no power to create the State of Israel in Golders Green after the Holocaust because Great Britain was (is)a sovereign state.

My "attempt at analogy" started with the words "Let's imagine." I'm curious as to which of the two words "let's" and "imagine" Linda Smith doesn't understand because she certainly has no idea what their combination means.

Linda Smith

ndm posted "The partial displacement of the Palestinian was an unfortunate but necessary response to the horrors of the holocaust. The Western appeasement of the descent of Zionism into a militant nationalism..."

What alternative planet does ndm live on? The Palestinians displaced themselves fleeing a genocidal war declared on the Jews by 5 Muslim Arab countries following years of Islamic inspired judophobia and murderous attacks. The Jews were forced to declare and fight for their survival because the Partition Plan records the UK's decision to end the Mandate in August 1948 and evacuate.

Plenty of evidence on You-tube and PMW of Arabs who lived through the events of 1947-8 telling the truth - they left their homes and fled at the behest of their own Arab leaders, to get out of the way while the Jews were being slaughtered.

Linda Smith

ndm no point in "imagining" a scenario of creating Israel in Golders Green that has no equivalence to the facts. It's like comparing apples and pears.

If you want to imagine real factual scenarios, imagine yourself as a dhimmi Jew living under the yoke of Islam, except of course when basking in the protection of European "imperialists".

The real shame, of course, is that Israel was not created before the Second World War when all the countries of the world closed their doors to Jews fleeing the Nazis. And, talking of World War II, let us not forget that other genocidal Arab Nazi, the Mufti of Jerusalem. Head of the Arab league wasn't he?

We must get some real facts in here ndm, and not your perverted lefty hogwash.

ndm

THX1138 opens this thread by recommending the always excellent South Jerusalem blog and quotes Haim Watzman one of its co-bloggers. Last year Gershom Gorenberg the other co-blogger at South Jerusalem reviewed some books on the 1948 war for the New York Review of Books. Gorenberg writes:

-- The conflagration began on November 30, 1947, the morning after the United Nations voted to partition British-ruled Palestine into a Jewish and an Arab state. A band of Arab fighters fired the first shots at a bus east of Tel Aviv, killing five Jews. The last military operation ended on March 10, 1949. In those fifteen months, Jewish forces defeated first the Arab irregulars of Palestine, then the invading armies of Egypt, Syria, Iraq, and Jordan. The new Jewish state’s borders, and its survival, were a product of victory. Yet in those same months, somewhere around 700,000 Palestinian Arabs became refugees.

-- In the war’s third stage, beginning that summer, there was "a growing readiness in [Israeli] units to expel" Arabs from towns and villages, even when General Staff orders discouraged such action, Morris said. One reason for the shift, he wrote, was that the unexpected exodus in previous months created hopes for a Jewish state that would have few Arabs. Another reason was a desire for vengeance against those seen as imposing a harsh war on the Jews.

-- Even more important, the new country’s government decided that those who left would not be allowed to return. That policy was the turning point. Combined with the increased expulsions, it transformed what happened in the chaos of a war into a lasting reality. Afterward, the two sides told such different stories of the war that they could have been describing separate planets.

The "displacement" of the Palestinians continues apace, with Israel having transferred about 400,000 of its citizens into the Occupied Palestinian Territories in what is probably the greatest war crime by any Western Nation in the last 65 years.

Beefeater

So far, the Clown Traitor is giving Enlightened Humanity a drubbing. Well done.

ndm

Linda Smith writes:

-- imagine yourself as a dhimmi Jew living under the yoke of Islam

I am never impressed by non-Muslims using the word "dhimmi" since its use always combines malevolence with ignorance.

Patricia Shaw

That s right, its only Guardian editors and readers to blame.

God forbid any other international medium, human rights body or government should fall into the same guardianista trap.

Blame it all on the Guardian!

Linda Smith

ndm, you posted: "I am never impressed by non-Muslims using the word "dhimmi" since its use always combines malevolence with ignorance."

Another fatuous statement by biggotist bigot, ndm.

Why can only Muslims understand the word "dhimmi"?

Patricia Shaw

As one turkish paper is suggesting - respect to mossad for the Uk gun slaughter.

A little chemical here, a little auto suggestion there, turn a normal man into a murderer...

As the paper points out, if they can murder 1500 innocent people in Gaza, including 400 babies, what s to stop israel perpetrating a minor slaughter to get it off the front pages.

Patricia Shaw

More from my friend in Ankara - under discussion in political circles is a second, all Turkish convoy, this time to be accompanied by ships of the Turkish Navy...