Sarkozy's Victory

FF

I don't know what Ed Milliband would do, but if I were the PM, I wouldn't make a deal so publicly conditional on concessions to the City. David Cameron was and remains utterly defeated on that issue, which then made the veto impossible to avoid.

Ben

Dear Alex, you're displaying the same profound judgement that you did on the Lockerbie bomber.

david

I'm just the ordinary British man in the street but does anyone really believe that all these countries, Greece, Italy and Spain will really toe the fiscal line and fit in this new super administration. And what sanctions could the rest of the EU really impose, come on they had rules before and ignored them, a good example is how have the Greeks simply got away with not paying taxes at a basic level. As for countries such as Croatia joining they will be like millstones around the necks of those who do perform. It does not need an analyst to see that in the future it will be Germany that walks away and leaves them to it. The discipline just is not there in all members.

Ian Walker

It's only a strategic defeat if the Franco-German alliance survives, which will I expect largely depend on whether the Euro can be saved by fiscal union.

The Germans have a deep-rooted cultural need to avoid inflation at any cost. The French have a deep-rooted cultural need to maintain their profligate welfare system. It's hard to see both of those things being possible in a fiscal union that is also tied to the collapsing economies of the PIGS, and the completely stagnant economies of the smaller Eurozone countries.

Sarkozy has won a battle, but he's also revealed his tactics - selecting one fall guy to undermine. That'a a plan that will work once and once only; meanwhile there's nothing to stop Britain from negotiating separately with the Eurozone members *except* France.

JohnH

It's the old cliche.

If we don't hang together, we hang separately

L Lewis

I rather think you have completely missed the point. The issue the EU leaders were there to discuss and fix was that of the inability of the Eurozone hot countries to pay their unsustainable debts. That requires several trillion Euros and there is no sign of a commitment. No, they met, avoided the real issue, and agreed little. Britain has neither won or lost anything other than the moral victory of keeping the City of London in its place of controlling more than a third of all European finance transactions. Oh yes and it employs 2million Brits, thank you very much.

Widdershins

'This is a loss of influence'

When did we ever have influence? When did we ever get anything out of the EU/EEC without having to give something up?

'There are plenty of other interests in europe who like and welcome the British perspective on transparency, the EU budget and, perhaps most importantly, the workings of the single market.'

Well, they've had their chance to stand up and be counted, and bottled it.

'...Germany, whose views are often closer to the British position than is sometimes thought, has lost a counterwieght to French protectionism.'

So why insist on stuff which the UK couldn't agree to?

'..it's pretty plain that many of the other, smaller countries have lost. The idea that national budgets must be submitted to and approved by Brussels will horrify many..'

As I said, they've had their chance.

'But a United States of Europe is closer today than it was yesterday..'

Because the EU didn't want to waste a good crisis.

'If David Cameron "won" this morning then his triumph is already eclipsed by that taken home by wee Nicolas Sarkozy.'

Well, we'll see next year if the French are happy with Sarko giving up another dollop of their sovereignty to the EU.

And in the meantime the internal contradictions of the euro remain.

dercavalier

"...If the public were less eurosceptical..."
You mean the right wing Tory public don't you?
Well at least Dave and the Ostrich have now spelt out clearly that the City's interests DO outweigh the public interest.

And in any case the Tobin Tax will eventually have to be paid by the City if it wants to do business with the 26.

Rhoda Klapp

Would you like to outline what you would have called a win? Because right now nobody has achieved anything. There are no winners, and the game stretches out before us, five-day cricket, not 20 over.

Rhoda Klapp

Oh, and do you think the eurozone politicians and the EU can agree whatever they like, without the people having a say? Can they keep together a union of many languages and customs, imposing one-size-fits-all laws to go with the interest rates and intrusive regulations and new prime ministers parachuted in from Goldman Sachs? I would think it cannot succeed, and we are well out of it.

andrew kerins

In a fiscal union the budget wont be drawn up by the Greeks or the Irish.
Sarkozy thinks it will be drawn up by the Germans and French.
In time, he will find it is drawn up by the Germans and the Germans.

dercavalier

Well, well. Didn't think I'd see the day the Spectator would censor comments which are anti-Dave and the Ostrich. But you live and learn

Steve

I would pretty much second all of the comments in this thread. It's breathtakingly hypocritical of Massie to support the legalization of all drugs plus the abolition of US government departments, but he is implacably opposed to any attempts to win back sovereignty form the EU. We're not the 'Spitfire and Bullshit' brigade (typical of him to resort to insults instead of arguments. 80% of the British public are sick of the thousands of EU regulations which govern our life and which are not subject to parliamentary or democratic scrutiny. If Massie was a genuine libertarian he would oppose this as well. Or perhaps he thinks it's right that British taxpayers pay money to EU farmers to produce food which is subsequently destroyed, to use one example of EU corruption and incompetence.

tired and emotional

Bravo Rhoda Klapp

Art

The EU is a club. It has rules, set by the members. We want to be in this club because we need access to the single market. Anyone who doubts that is crazy. So you abide by the rules of the club.

The alternative is the 'associate membership' model - what Norway does. They are like the man who visits a gentlemen's club in a foreign city and enjoys the facilities as part of a reciprocal arrangement. He might be able to dine, enjoy a drink and a snooze in the library. But he can hardly expect to have a say on what wines the club purchases, or who sits on the committee. Norway enjoys some of the EU facilities (access to the common market) on the EU's terms - it has to enact all kinds of EU legislation into Norwegian law. It has no say over that legislation.

If we went down the Norway route, we would certainly pay less than at present. But we would also certainly be constantly applying legislation we had no right to question, just to maintain our associate membership of the club. Is that an improvement?

escapedRoger

Dear David
Croatia will not be any millstone, a country that can be self sufficient in food, has an average of two houses per family and a well educated youth. Britain should be so lucky.

escapedRoger

Sarkosy will not be in power in a years time,Cameron will.
Time to move even further away from the core continental Europe, referendum please.

Rhoda Klapp

Art, what influence do we have on the regulation now? Are the ones we get what we asked for? Do norwegians have to obey, say, the working time directive? Can't they make what they like to sell elsewhere, rather than to make all goods according to EU regs? Don't we open our markets in, say, elctricity to EU countires and find that they do not open their markets to us? How many billion is it worth to be full members of a club if we do not feel comfortable in it? Oh, and the ever-closer union. Why are we signed up to that?

Art

Rhoda Klapp - you've just shown the classic ignorance of the 'EEA' brigade. Norway is bound by the working time directive and all the other rules of the single market, otherwise it wouldn't have access. Of course we have to manufacture to EU standards if we want to sell to the EU. One Norwegian politician calls it 'fax democracy': they sit by the fax machine waiting for the next directive from Brussels.

If you think we have no influence at present, just compare the first draft of EU regulations before the negotiations begin.

Danielle

Alex, other countries may agree with Britain's position on 'other matters' as you put it, and seem to want Britain to be a counterweight to the French but the problem for Britain is that when push comes to shove said Country's ALWAYS fall meekly in behind the French and Germans leaving Britain standing alone. Time has come to persue our own national interests. We have to stand up for ourselves like France and Germany stand up for their national interests.

The simple fact that can no longer be ignored is, what is in Britain's national interest is the total opposite to what Germany France etc want. This is a circle that cannot be squared. Britain is not a natural member of the European Union and times of crisis will show this.

Snowman

Rhoda, I'm am afraid, Art @ 5.31 has got it spot on, the best and only solution for us would be a new treaty that clearly sets the limits of power transfer from each member to Brussels, addresses the glaring democratic deficit, reforms the set-up’s institutions.

What the boy did ain’t helpful in this respect at all.

Dan Cashearne

"Germany remains an indispensable nation (and the key to curing eurowoes)"

What 'cure' precisely? As in, they are the only nation which makes things well in any great volume and trades them successfully, and so, as most of the rest of us have given up on that (so 19th century) then let's hang on for the ride?

Europe will never succeed in its presently envisaged form as long as it has a hole up its arse, and that hole is its unshakable supra- welfare stance.

Oh and you're right: the Brussels juggernaut does not come close to ANY definition of democratic self-government. Europe cannot afford such trifling concerns.

Rhoda Klapp

Snowman, Art, I don't think we are in very different positions. Obviously our current sityuation is undefined and unsatisfactory. It seems highly unlikely that we could or would wish to join the euro, ever. So what we have now needs to be formalised into some sort of semi-detached relationship. We are not Norway, however. We can get our own deal. And if we don't, we can finish the job and quit. My preference would be for a phased withdrawal, terms to be agreed by negotiation, not by current treaty provisions. I don't see how we can stay in on the old basis. I don't see how we can, as a direct result of the events of this week, allow the rest to make rules which apply to us. If we can get free trade, and I don't see who would object, then we can manage fine outside. I can't see a future inside. If anyone can, please come on here and map out how that could work.

Rhoda Klapp

And another thing, I am not in any brigade. Not spitfire and bullshit, not EEA, whatever that is. I stand corrected on the Norway/working time issue. I don't actually subscribe to the go back to EFTA meme, I think that ship has sailed. But when the shops are full of goods from China, Africa, the US and all, I find it difficult to fear the dreaded exclusion form the single market if we leave the EU. They will not exclude us. Why on earth should they, except out of malice? And we are all mates, aren't we? Aren't we?

cuffleyburgers

Alex - one of your weaker efforts.

You may be correct that Sarkozy got what he wanted, but that's alright because it's what we want as well, we have now reached for our Coat and hat and are headed for the exit.

Cameron was effectively left with no choice, but some of the colleagues seem to think he should have acquiesced anyway. Their shocked reaction is highly enjoyable, he has indeed rained on their parade which can only be a good thing.

Consensus is an extremely dangerous thing in the hands of politicians as they use to do whatever best suits them rather than the poor sods (us) who pay taxes and have to work for a living.

I am no admirer of Cameron but he made the right choice this time, and the more angst it creates the better.

I believe it will will lead to Germnay rapidly gatting thoroughly pissed off with French arrogance and statism, and although I don't suppose they'll invade this time, they will most likely flounce off and exit the euro themselves.

Remember this, bad news for the Brussels communes is good news for the people of Europe.

fergus pickering

Don't you think that being Scotch might cloud your judgement - the Auld Alliance and all that?

c777

Once the EZone banks start to run we shall see, for run they will.

Art

Rhoda Klapp - the basic difference between our positions is that you believe that we could get free trade with the EU more or less on demand. I think that's unbelievably naive. The basis of the EU is that we operate a level playing field in terms of regulations in return for free trade. There is simply no way the UK would be able to negotiate a deal where we can run our economy any way we like and still get free trade with Europe.

My position is not about affection for the EU. It's about realising that we have no options.

DavidDP

Following on from this view, Alex, do you not think it should be Sarko who is the target of opprobrium for high-jacking talks aimed at saving the Euro for an agenda to punish London which has nothing to do propping up the currency?

What does it say about Europhiles that face with a scenario in which the other side is playing politics with a vital issue, they immediately take that side up?

Irascible Old Git

Art

With regards to your analogy of the EU being a club, Michael Portillo recently said that Britain did indeed join a club, but one which is constantly changing the rules.

I was never a fan of the man while he was a minister, but he's bang on the money.

Nicholas

"Spitfire and bullshit brigade" eh?

Well, it was the Spitfire (amongst other British attributes, mechanical and human) that preserved the freedom (despite the best efforts of New Labour) for you to write the bullshit.

Even so, it's not a very nice or respectful phrase to use when younger and better men than you fought and died in that beautiful machine. It is not a symbol that most British people would choose to sneer at. One of your weaker efforts indeed. But is demonstrates what we are up against now.

Archibald

I wonder if any of our fabulous press will dig around in this fabulous mess, Sarkozy may well not last very long at all if any of the unanswered questions cast him in a rather bad light. It's a fabulous Christmas conspiracy theory with a little bit of everything:

http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/2011/dec/22/what-really-happened-dominique-strauss-kahn/

Holly ......

Assuming all the 26 agree to being dictated to by Germany....Not too far in the future they may well say 'stuff this for a game' and decide to join the CHUKs.

They were all tired, and they wanted to get home....In principle helped to bring the meeting to a close...The only country that sorted anything was Britain.

Let us see how many are actually willing to sign on the dotted line, and may I add, are still leaders.

Frank P

Archibald (3.38pm)

Good link: the naive, or Marxist, Europhiles (some tautology in that phrase maybe - but not necessarily) who think that a Euro-superstate trumps any national sovereignty interests have no idea to what lengths the mongrel mix of Europols will do to keep grip on power and organise their scams. The neophytes now running British politics with their SpAds and shrink tanks are amateurs in the great game and they are bad enough from a prole's p.o.v .

Frank P

Archibale (part two)

[Tried to post a more complete rersponse to your post but it refused to leave the send box]

For whatever superficial reason Cameron played his card last night and no matter who advised him to do it, he should now consolidate it by announcing the date of an election mand ride in on the wave of popularity that emanates from Britain making the first move for yonks in ridding ourselves of the turbulent pests of the Bureaucratic Bullshit Brigade of Brussels and environs. He should also shake off the LimpDem ponces and parasites with a shrug, for they will surely disappear off the face of the earth after any election in the near future, particularly if held within the next three months - and formulate a new economic policy for Britain within the Anglosphere (or a policy for England if the Scots and Welsh want to remain within Europe). Whenever someone mentions the EU I get a dose of the kinnocks, accompanied by concomitant mandies - two allergies which can be very painful for anyone of my generation with a brain. I also reach for my wallet, which is all but empty already from their excesses, as I want to retain the pittance they and their ilk have left me. And once again, if you really want to consolidate your new-found popularity, FREE EMMA WEST! That infamous balls-up is doing you much political damage. She needs to be back with her kids. And Christmas is a-coming.

Austin

I'm not quite sure what Mr. Massie's point is, but I am quite sure that neither the euro nor the Franco-German political-economic union will survive. In which case, Britain will be much better off not chained to these eventual losers led by French elites and German technocrats.

Austin

I'm not quite sure what Mr. Massie's point is, but I'm quite sure that the euro and the Franco-German political-economic union will not survive. The French people will not go along with their elites having German technocrats restructure their welfare state to suit Germans. Britain needs to stay out of this quicksand.

Archibald

Frank P - good, isn't it? For those interested I should point out that the NY Review Of Books is (I believe) a sister publication of our own London Review Of Books. So given this and the fact that it's a US not UK publication, this particular spotlight on Sarko couldn't be put down to right wing anger or an attempted smear; I would suggest the NYRB is about as left wing as US publications get. Enjoyable magazine, but that's not important - what is important is this makes the issues raised with regards connections to Sarko all the more concerning. Perhaps Fraser and his gang of intrepid journos will do a bit of old fashioned digging for us.

Jon Stack

You fall into the same trap as the political class, Alex. It's not about political winners and losers; how tedious that discussion is. It's about the prosperity and the security of the peoples of Europe, the prospects for both of which have significantly worsened as a result of this poxy "victory", as you call it. The UK has a chance to avoid this now: let's all grasp it.