The Islamisation of Britain

Commondog

They get away with it, because they can.

They can, because they are here in enough number.

They are here in enough number because we did not produce the babies who would have grown to occupy the houses, jobs, etc, in which they are now ensconced. And this is merely the landing party.

Let's here it for women's freedom of choice.

Ian G

Can I clarify a point which many seem to misunderstand. The good Bishop has said that the Church needs to evangelise Muslims, i.e. preach the gospel to them. This is in line with Jesus' command to preach the gospel and make disciples.

The Bishop did NOT call for the church to CONVERT Muslims. Note that Jesus did not do this either.

Forced conversion is failed conversion; as many will testify.In Christian and Biblical understanding,conversion is a work of the Holy Spirit. In other words, God works on the heart of the individual. It is a personal transaction. So we can say that Billy Graham has never converted anyone, but he has led millions (probably) to the Lord and God has changed their hearts, or not, as the case may be.

However, the Bishop is right in saying that we should be making the case for Christianity to all faiths and none. This is merely the ancient job of the Church. Those Churchmen and women who say otherwse should either repent or leave. To ask that the Church should not preach the Gospel is to ask that it cease being the Church, it's what we do. You can ask for sensitivity and understanding, but not silence. Silence is lethal.

Brian O'Connor

Britain's going out not with a roar, nor even a whimper, but with a snore.

Alas, Britain is not alone.

London Calling

Many empty church's in Britain came to life again, due to the large influx of Christian Polish immigrants. In fact as our local Priest stated a Church is just a museum if it doesn’t have a flock, so he was grateful and happy to see our church filled with people once again.

I agree that we have bent over backwards to give powers to the other religious groups over ourselves as a nation, and Melanie is right to highlight this point.

Preaching Christianity is one thing, because you don’t have to listen, inviting others to convert from another religion is another matter and should not be encouraged, but I agree with Ian G, I am not sure forced conversion is what the Bishop of Rochester was stating.

After all, Muslims, Jews and Christian are the three roots from Abraham and if we concentrate on the basic principles of each, they all preach Love and Tolerance, the problem some have is following these basic principles.

If Christianity is in decline in Britain, it could be more to do with our own identity crises, that invading religions, and therefore whilst agreeing on powers given to other groups are undermining our own values, we have to also ask how we got to this point in the first place, and why decadent Britain prevails as a result.

Jo Jo

10 years ago my daugher started medical school in Birmingham. During freshers she told me muslm groups had stands with materials which called for the slaughter of British soldiers. At that time we were amazed that no-one stopped this happening on the streets of Bimingham. Now of course anyone claiming to be muslim can almost write their own rules. As a white woman I do not want to go to a mixed hospital ward A muslim woman would never be subjected to this indignity. Britain has slept while our rights and communities have been eroded by appeasement policies. Integration, not isolation, no special treatment for anyone or no hope for everyone.

Michael Paul

People in authority appear to have given in to a form of Stockholm Syndrome. Whereby hostages seized for a certain period of time eventually fall into line with their captor's line of thinking and demands. Radical Islamists won't be bought with political correctness or any other form of appeasement. For the sake of all moderate people in this Country, including moderate Muslims, the radicals and their hostage liberal intelligentsia must be faced down to preserve this Country's basic freedoms.

Joe Strummer

But will we be allowed to have conversations like this here in the UK in even 30 years time without physical punishment.?

I say no.......

Commondog

or even hear it

Tom

"After all, Muslims, Jews and Christian are the three roots from Abraham and if we concentrate on the basic principles of each, they all preach Love and Tolerance, the problem some have is following these basic principles."

Dearie, dearie me. Where to start. The "we're all children of Abraham" line.

1. "Muslims, Jews and Christian are the three roots from Abraham" - bollocks. This presupposes equivalence between these three religions from some mythical common ancestor religion and this is just fatuous nonsense. Christianity sees Christ as the fulfillment of Jewish scripture. Judaism, almost by definition, does not. The johnny-come-lately religion of Islam is a semi-literate confused mish-mash of Judaism, heretical Christian ideas, paganism and codswallop.

2. "they all preach Love and Tolerance"

Spare me the happy-clappy, "I'd like to teach the world to sing...", "all you need is love", guff. It wouldn't take more than a five minute search on Google to produce a dozen Qu'ranic verses which would sound about as tolerant as Vlad the Impaler after you'd bumped into him in the pub and spilled his pint. In fairness it wouldn't take long to find a number of biblical quotes which don't sound particularly tolerant either.

3. "the problem some have is following these basic principles"

Quite the opposite. The problem the rest of us have is that some follow the basic principles only too closely and the problem you have is you have no idea what the basic principles are yourself.

David Lindsay

Are the churches in Britain doing enough to convert Muslims? No, of course not. They are instead positioning themselves for privileged dhimmitude when all the discontented young white intellectuals and their black boyfriends, and all the discontented young black wannabe pop stars and their white girlfriends, have become Muslims.

Secularisation is so last century. Britain, Europe, and indeed America (the muezzin’s call to prayer now resounds around Harvard Square) are already in the next stage, that of Islamisation.

James

"Indeed. Britain is being steadily Islamised – and hardly a word is being breathed about it." Britain is being Islamized because Britain has allowed mass immigration by Muslims. Israel doesn't allow it, because Israel, unlike Britain, isn't insane.

Thinkster

@James & @Tom: Both spot on, Tom, very funny too.

London Calling

Tom

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field

I'm all for exposing Jihadism.

I'm also all in favour of exposing racism. JoJo writes:

"As a white woman I do not want to go to a mixed hospital ward A muslim woman would never be subjected to this indignity. "

There are plenty of "black" women as well as "white" women
who don't want to be in mixed sex wards. In fact my guess is nearly all women would prefer not to be. But the idea that no black man can control himself when confronted with the sight of a white woman in a nightie is indeed racist.

And lastly JoJo can rest assured that Muslim women also suffer the indignity of mixed sex wards.

And finally - can I add that I think most men wouldn't want to be a in a mixed sex ward, especially if they are in for anything to do with prostate, circumcision, testicular cancer or the like.

jerry

Though not a perfect solution, Britain and all of Europe can go a long way to solving population pressures and potential terrorism problems by insisting that no one can live in these countries who has more than one wife, whether that "extra" wife is present in the same country or not. If this became the basis for acquiring residency rights and citizenship, there would be no class of males without access to standard family life and less motivation for a husband to develop justifications for abandoning women and children. Polygamous societies disadvantage both married women and unmarried men, advantaging only the wealthy and powerful.

Kiwi

As we infidels see it, the problem is that Islam refuses to accept that in the 21st century there is no room for religion - any religion - in the public square. Other religions have accepted this and retreated to a more private space. Islam has not.

Commondog

London Calling.

I'm sorry but if that's your idea of a response then I have to tell you, it's weak.

What Tom provided there was a very pertinent and valid series of points which, more that ably,redress the repeated bleatings of the "all that's needed is for us to understand them" brigade, and which deserve more than such a childish quip.

Louisa

It's like being on the Titanic and being abandoned by the authorities.

Maybe I should go and strap a bomb on and blow myself up and the politicians will worry about my 'heart and mind'.

Has no-one told the politicians that some people have evil hearts and minds?

Keith

It is difficult to understand how the Govt. is able to justify,legally and morally, the massive hand out to Islamic organisations since this is an ethos which has tenets and practises which are against EU and UK law.Death for apostasy has recently been reaffirmed as an inviolable tenet of all Islam in Saudi Arabia.By their funding do the UK govt support this? Is it legal in the UK to promote these tenets in education and is the Dept of Education involved in funding lawbreaking?

Brian

The quotation below, posted by Robert Spencer, appears on today's 'jihadwatch.org' website:
Churchill predicts "Islamophobia"

“In a very few years, perhaps in a very few months, we shall be confronted with demands with which we shall no doubt be invited to comply. Those demands may affect the surrender of territory or the surrender of liberty. I foresee and foretell that the policy of submission will carry with it restrictions upon the freedom of speech and debate in Parliament, on public platforms, and discussions in the press, for it will be said--indeed, I hear it said sometimes now - that we cannot allow the Nazi system of dictatorship to be criticized by ordinary, common English politicians. Then, with a press under control, in part direct but more potently indirect, with every organ of public opinion doped and chloroformed into acquiescence, we shall be conducted along further stages of our journey.” -- Winston Churchill

Shy Guy

Read and weep:

The State of Englishness.

How ironic that this has to be tossed back across the pond:

"Live free or die: Death is not the worst of evils." - John Stark

David Lindsay

No, indeed, James. They were there anyway, and are now so numerous that within Israel’s pre-1967 borders the single most common name for newborn baby boys is now Muhammad.

As for immigration, compare Britain’s large vote for Greece in the Eurovision Song Contest with Israel’s large vote for Russia.

Cyprus (a Commonwealth country) was not in it this year, and one in six Greek Cypriots lives in Britain, as we should bear in mind when deciding whether or not Turkey is really any brother of ours, as well as whether or not to support Islamic secessions from Orthodox countries.

Israel, meanwhile, is increasingly full of Russians, let in under the Law of Return, the suicidal essence of Zionism.

Some of them are Nazis. And even the rest routinely insist on taking their Israeli Defence Force oaths on the New Testament alone. That stance has nothing to do with Russian Orthodoxy, which keeps Old Testament figures as saints and venerates icons of them. It really cannot be attributed to anything other than a simple dislike of Jews.

Not only Israel, but also America, needs to wake up. If the latter really is determined to treat the Russia of Putin and Medvedev as an enemy (and neoconservative ideology admits of no other approach, since it defines itself by its rejection of the Biblical-Classical synthesis of which Russia is so great a bulwark), then she must face the fact that Israel cannot any longer be regarded as an ally. Israel’s natural alliance is now with Russia.

Simon Wiesenthal

Melanie Phillips, you should be ashamed of yourself. You are weird, deluded and dangerous. You have such an opportunity and privilege to enjoy life yet you seemingly spend it polluting yourself and the lives of anyone witless enough to take you seriously.

Chill out. Breathe out. Take some perspective on your life and move on.

You are not currently a force for good.

Shy Guy

David Lindsay
May 27th, 2008 4:45pm

Israel’s natural alliance is now with Russia.

Speaking to you as an Israel resident for 25 years, I'd have to say that this is one of the stupidest claim I've heard in a long time, whether you were referring to the Israeli government or Israel's populace.

Even of our Russian population, did it ever occur to you that they wanted to get away from the Motherland, now that anyone is free to do so?

Continue to mislead. We are not fooled.

David Lindsay

Shy Guy, what, they wanted to get away so much that they won't learn Hebrew, maintain Russian language media instead, won't eat kosher food, insist on taking the IDF oath on the New Testament alone, harbour gangs of armed Nazis, and even phoned in in huge numbers to give Russia "douze points" in the Eurovision Song Contest?

The old Ashkenazi, Jewish in a C of E sort of way/outright atheist, classically Zionist Israel is gone, having failed to reproduce itself. The battle to succeed it is now between the Russians, the Arabs and the ultra-Orthodox. Nobody else now lives there in sufficient numbers to matter, and those that do refuse to procreate.

Gordon Neil

None of the comments seem to have targeted the salient issue of muslim advisors across all levels of government. if this is indeed the case , then It is these advisors and their backers in our government that deserve scrutiny. Who are they ? How do they excercise power over our elected representatives ? Who funds them ? Who in government is setting the overarching policy for the inclusion of said advisors ? Who is coordinating it ? Who is monitoring it ? To whom do they report etc ? A comprehensive program of inclusion across all levels of government, if it exists, would require a very high level of support. Surely we as the electorate are entitled to have a comprehensive exposition and explanation of any such network.

nosmo29

David Lindsay writes
...The battle to succeed it is now between the Russians, the Arabs and the ultra-Orthodox. Nobody else now lives there in sufficient numbers to matter, and those that do refuse to procreate....

Rubbish. The Jewish birth rate in Israel is rising all the time and is now 20.1 per 1000 - perhaps the highest birth rate in the Western world with 110,000 Jewish births. (UK birth rate = 12.5)
The Muslim birth rate in Israel meanwhile declines and will, in the near future, be no higher than the Jewish birth rate

Jake H

Keep giving in to Islam...and we will all be praying toward Mecca. Radical Islam is a curse to this "free" world. Melanie Phillips is like a "prophetic" light..but we dont want to pay the electric bill!

flipped

Are we? Funny how I haven't noticed it. Just over twenty years ago we were all going to be taken over by the communists, before that by the nazis, before that by the French, Spanish....

Who will it be in ten years time, Martians, or the bogeymen?

Ian C

Melanie,

Theodore Dalrymple's essay in today's City Journal follows this up and expands on what you have been consistently saying. He really pinpoints why we have such a problem being unable to integrate the immigrant populations we allow in, partly through an intelligent comparison with France.

Britain he says is.."is not an ideological state; it has no foundation myths that are easy to identify with... France.. is an ideological, or at least a philosophical, state, while Britain is an organic one."

He cites the French Revolution and the values of Liberte, Egalitite et Fraternite as the philosophy underpinning their anyone’s understanding of what going to live in France means. "The ban [on headscarves] simply accorded with the state’s secular founding philosophy. Multiculturalism… is not compatible with the founding Enlightenment mythology of France; assimilation, not integration, is the goal. Everyone learns the same history in France; and …[immigrants] come[s] to [learn] not a biological but a cultural truth—and an easy-to-understand one, at that."

“The French state started with a philosophical big bang; the British state evolved. The French state prescribed; the British state did not forbid…It is hard to oppose an ideology with a tradition.”

This last sentence sums up so neatly how we have so much difficulty in allowing people to come to live here without confronting their propensity not to integrate. Well worth the read and supplements so much of what Melanie and fellow contributors have said.

stanley Jerusalem

Just a small point.
We are all free, within the limits of decency and good taste to choose whatever handle we wish.
But"Simon Wiesenthal!!"
What a disgrace to the memory of a good man.
U G H !
Why don't you try Quisling or Inquart or Marat or Iscariot?

flipped

Blimey, what a bunch of big girls blouses! Your mothers and grandmothers would be ashamed of the lot of you. Many of them endured the luftewaffe's onslaught on our cities, not knowing from day to day whether they would live or die, yet each day they came out of the shelters and each day they got on with what had to be done, make the tanks, ships and aircraft needed by our soldiers sailors and airmen.

The Muslims make up roughly three percent of our population yet you wet your knickers at the thought of them. Someone tells you to be afraid of them, so you quake with fear.

This country has endured threats for many hundreds of years but never has it's people quaked in so much fear as today's generation. Maybe they should bring back conscription, it might put some backbone into you.
God help this country because you lot won't, your too scared of your own shadows.

None of the Muslim countries have either the military capacity or industrial infrastructure to wage a modern war against and industrial nation. AK47Ms and Katyushas aren't endough, you need a modern army, navy and airforce with and industry to support and supply it.

Shy Guy

David Lindsay
May 27th, 2008 5:52pm

Shy Guy, what, they wanted to get away so much that they won't learn Hebrew, maintain Russian language media instead,

Sounds like a lot of the Anglo-American population here, including many who are proudly religious and/or Zionistic.

won't eat kosher food,

While I will tell you that non-Jewishness is a problem in Israel (even the greatest), that does not define such Israelis as Putin lovers.

insist on taking the IDF oath on the New Testament alone

Non-Jews in Israel is a major problem, based on the washed down and out Law of Return. Yet again, what does this have to do with you claim that "Israel’s natural alliance is now with Russia"? Might as well say that Israel's natural alliance is with the Vatican.

harbour gangs of armed Nazis,

Would you like to post a documented number of the actual number of known neo-Nazi Russians in Israel as a percentage of all Israeli Russians? What a farce!

and even phoned in in huge numbers to give Russia "douze points" in the Eurovision Song Contest?

Can you figure out yourself why this point of your is so dumb? I'll give you 12 points if you get it right.

The old Ashkenazi, Jewish in a C of E sort of way/outright atheist, classically Zionist Israel is gone, having failed to reproduce itself. The battle to succeed it is now between the Russians, the Arabs and the ultra-Orthodox. Nobody else now lives there in sufficient numbers to matter, and those that do refuse to procreate.

For the love of Putin, this still has nothing to do with the love of Putin.

Frank Pulley

flipped

>"Funny how I haven't noticed it. Just over twenty years ago we were all going to be taken over by the communists, before that by the nazis, before that by the French, Spanish...."<

Last time I looked we had been taken over by the communists albeit in camouflage. With hardly a whimper from the electorate who, like you, didn't even notice and voted for the Trojan horse.

As for your second rant, I suggest, Rip Van Winkle, you return to your slumber. Quite a lot has happened while you have been in the land of Nod. And the islamists have learned that you don't need tanks to create havoc in the Western World. Moreover they have also learned that a nuclear capability would make terrorism even more effective. I do think that there are forward planners on 'our' side (I don't include you in that of course) who probably will not allow that to happen. But if they bottle out, get ready to point your ass at the West five times a day at the muezzin's behest. What a Dhimmi!

Btw – what an appropriate sobriquet…

Susan

Kiwi ... most people understand the secularism is the most fundamental and least tolerant belief system invented by man. There is an underlying set of assumptions (think: faith) about the world. But this system allows room for no other system of beliefs and each individual is "God". This may be news to you, but it has been clear to most people for decades.

Dave M

I have a sense of an awakening taking place in the U.K. and this is hitting New Labour where it hurts. For some years, New Labour has had a good deal of success in brainwashing the public to believing it's racist to object to mass immigration and also the fashionable tolerance of radical Islam. Now people seem to understand they've been well and truly hoodwinked. Nobody ever objected to educated, hard working muslim immigrants coming here to live but New Labour pushed the boundaries far further than that. For decades, along with the decent immigrants, we've seen other arrivals who obviously don't wish to integrate in western society or accept secular, liberal values. We've even seen hijackers granted asylum and terrorists funded and educated by the taxpayer. People now seem to have had enough of enforced multiculturalism. It's true, as Melanie points out, there is still ongoing Islamisization within the U.K. but not amongst the working classes. Also, many of the middle classes have lost patience with political correctness and the tolerance of intolerant extremist ideology (by Labour and the Beeb). The reason the archbishop of Canterbury caused such a huge uproar recently was because he more or less stated Islamic domination in the cultural/religious sphere was "inevitable". I glanced at message boards on the BBC's own webspace after the Archbishop's discourse and found hundreds of irate, furious messages posted. The majority of everyday people didn't agree with the Archbishop while experiencing near hysteria over the looming spectre of Sharia Law.

jose garcia

to SHY GUY

how can you post links like that in a comment,
with the title underlined?

thanks

Shy Guy

Jose, it's elemntary HTML code. Here's a short tutorial for you.

The above link was made using the following HTML code (hopefully this code example will display correctly):

<a href="http://www.myhtmltutorials.com/link.html"><b><u>short tutorial</u></b></a>

It's a pity there's no preview button here to make sure HTML code is correct. (Hint, hint, nudge, nudge)

Since there isn't a preview button, I usually preview my comments on another blog's preview page and then paste it back here.

flipped

Frank Pulley

What a bunch of saddoes, no wonder Scotland wants to leave the Union.

Why oh why did I waste twelve years of my life defending wimps like you? I wonder if the young men and women in Iraq and Afghanistan realise the kind of people they are laying their lives down for?

This must be the most spineless generation this country has ever had, I've seen mice with more balls than you! Someone says Boo and you quake with fear.

No one can take our country away from us unless we allow it!

So explain to me exactly how three percent of the population are going to impose their will on the other ninety seven percent?

Ian C

Flipped, you have a point but you are over-simplifying it a bit. Today's problems are mainly caused by us not making it clear that the immigrant must integrate- and much of the rest flows from that. It has now gone on for so long that we have a major issue.

flipped

Ian C

Integration doesn't happen overnight, it takes a few generations. The great majority of third generation Asians are integrating, especially the women who are seizing the opportunities they could never have had in their (grand)parents homelands with both hands and hearts. Most will end up being secular muslims, like the majority of us are secular christians, You know the type Hatch, Match & Dispatch.

Yes there are some fanatics who won't integrate and will cause us trouble but we've also got plenty of home grown trouble makers, who if they get the chance and the means would do exactly the same, cause death and mayhem in society. There's a lot of anger out there and not just amongst some Asians, but also amongst Africans, West Indians and even some Eastern Europeans, all of them came here with high expectations and more than a few have been greatly disappointed and feel bitter. They too are just as likely to be radicalised by groups with their own political agendas.

Quaking in our boots and crying "We're Doomed Doomed, I tell You", isn't the answer.

Ann

Common dog, 'They are here in enough numbers because' inter alia we let them in.

Ann

Tom, what is important is not what the Koran says, but what its followers do.
The Bible contains hair-raising language, but remind me of the last time that Jews conspired to cause explosions on the tube.
Other than that, I agree with you.

Ann

Lindsay's nonsensical claims show that he knows nothing about Israel, has never been there and derives his 'facts' from dodgy websites. For example, his reference to 'Ashkenazi v. ultraorthodox v. Arab' means that he has never heard of Sephardic Jews, let alone that they outnumber Ashkenazi Jews.

Commondog

flipped.

Your 3% drone for a start off is going on official figures, very likely well under the real number.
More importantly though, you speak as if things are static and they're not. You look at the graphline and see what's in store. Does that change things at all or are you another blanket thrower.

BTW leave my knickers and blouse and bladder problems out of this.

flipped

Commondog

I'm aware that the official figures are more than likely on the low side and that some illegals are radicals but not all of them as most will be living in fear of being returned to their own countries from which they were happy to be out of and unlikely to endanger their position here anymore than necessary.

All countries face internal threats, now more so than ever as the world economy faces recession and fuel and food supplies become more difficult. I doubt very much that the majority of Muslims in this country want anymore problems with getting on with their lives than you or any one else does.

The number of Muslim radicals, in Britain who want to impose Sharia on this country are very likely a lot less than 0.1 percent.

If you want to give people power over you, show them your fear!

Kiwi

flipped - "The number of Muslim radicals, in Britain who want to impose Sharia on this country are very likely a lot less than 0.1 percent."
Accepting your figures, that's about 20,000 strong, and growing - that's more than enough for a fifth column - by comparison, the British Army is in the region of 100,000 soldiers.
"If you want to give people power over you, show them your fear!" So, should a push come to a shove, who would you suggest draws the line in the sand, the 'big girls blouses' or the politicians?

Ian C

Flipped, I broadly agree with you. It is a question of emphasis and management.

What we have had is a complete emphasis on immigration with no management. The Labour Govt keep saying that they have created 0.7m jobs or whetver the number is. The fact is that most of this arising from the economic planks put in place post-Black Wednesday (and continued in 1997-2001) and the floodgates opened for imnmigration to fill the resulting demand for labour instead of sorting the welfare addicted out and getting them first in the queue fro those jobs.

That was a management problem that they simply have failed to address and with it has come the largest inward migration in a short period that the country has ever seen. 'Indigestion' at the very least was bound to result.
The other fact is this Gov't was not honest that it was operating such a 'policy'.

My own view is that a small advanced economy should be trying to find ways to shrink the population, but that is another discussion.

flipped

[Accepting your figures, that's about 20,000 strong, and growing - that's more than enough for a fifth column]

Kiwi

I doubt that it is anywhere near 20,000, a lot less and probably only an extremely small minority of those are prepared to resort to violence. The majority will be their equivalent of our own Bar Room Commandos, all wind and piss.

This country recently survived thirty years of an IRA terror campaign, between the late sixties and the nineties. That wasn't the first time that the IRA conducted open warfare on the British mainland, they have been doing so on and off since the beginning of the 20th century. We're still here and still ruled over by the same muppets as before, not the IRA.

If we are going to defeat these (probably) handful of fanatics then were need to look at what it is they're are demanding and why and then isolated them from their own communities. We did that extremely successfully in Malaya against the CTs (Comunist Terrorists). It took fourteen years but it worked. Overreacting and carrying out punitive pogroms don't work, they only create more terrorists and sympathisers.

I really hope that your mummy never read Grimms Fairy Tales to you when you were a young child, otherwise you'd probably be needing psychiatric treatment for PTSD!

Ian C

I do agree with you, the government have mismanaged immigration disasterously. The big question is, what do we do about it and somehow resolve a problem that is only going to grow? Tighter rules about who can and can't come here would help and some are slowly being introduced. The problem that we do have is we are already overcrowded with too many people in too small a space, especially the South East of the country. Though the coming recession and hard times may well help to resolve that but we are still going to have the problem of people wanting to come here, legally or illegally.

Commondog

flipped.

Wind your neck in will you.

Sorry mate but just because you did some time in the mob and you can slap the odd bit of earthiness on the table whoopedoo. Doesn't mean you are entitled to gob off without redress. You're not the only one to have done a bit is what I'm saying, so calm it down and we'll talk like adults.

Please do not equate the IRA what faces us now. Different in scale, ambition and in potential.

You would do yourself a favour to read up a little more on it rather than trying to impress us wordy types with your ruffy tuffy posturing and theatrical taunts.

Also, your facts and figures: made up, guessed at and of no use to any of us. Come back with a little civility and lets discuss eh? Or carry on trying your act as the oldest enfant terrible in town.

Dig out.

Ian C

Commondog - you're being a bit rough on the guy. The valid point he is making is that we have seen much worse and dealt with it stoically. And that we are in danger of losing the stoic bit. All that is without argument I would say. That is not to say there isn't a problem.

He agrees on the immigration numbers and management issue. Also in his argument's favour is the competence of the sort of radicals we saw last week in Exeter. If that's what we're up against then what are we worrying about?

In your favour is that there is more to it than that and if I had been on the public transport system on 7 & 21/7, I might percieve that he i being complacent.

The bigger danger is the one he concedes about immigration and what/why we are getting it in such large quantities and how we are leting them be and that ground is conceded too. Seems reasonable enough.

flipped

Commondog

Sorry,looks like my reply to you has been censored.

Something for you to ponder. If this country is under such immediate and dire threat of an islamic takeover, why is Ms Phillips still living here? Surely she would feel that she and her family are no longer safe and would be better off in Israel or more likely America. When she takes off to Israel or the US, then I'll believe that the Muslim hordes are coming.

Oh bye the way at my age you're allowed to be a recidivist deliquent.

Rolls a toke and wonders what the world is coming too, when young pipsqeaks start telling their elders to grow up and start acting their age.

Alexandrovich

flipped: spot on, every post.
"...so calm it down and we'll talk like adults" or "...wordy types." I fear this attitude is one of the reasons we've arrived at the situation which causes so much concern on this thread.

Frank Pulley

flipped

"12 years defending the country". Bwaaaahahahaha, You're just a sprog; get some in! Had a few jars have we?"

Commondog

Alexandrovich.

Tried it once with you and never got a response but hey- ho let's try again.

What attitude? What concern?

And I'm trying to assemble the critique you attempt by the two quotations - can you elucidate?

flipped.

Jeez listen at me, am I playing who's the daddy now?
OK, D195 it starts. How you?

Your question regarding imminent collapse is off beam. Never a part of my argument. It's not that type of operation.

In fact I need more to go on here. Finish your toke, do whatever it is you do to flush it out and then re-word your censored response, see if we can get anywhere.

David M

The great majority of third generation Asians are integrating, especially the women....."
Anyone who saw the Channel 4 documentary on multiculturalism in the U.K., hosted by Raggi Omar will find entirely the opposite is taking place. Second and third generation immigrants are actually reconnecting with their own culture. When asked directly if they felt themselves British, the response was only maybe about 30 per cent. To be honest, I've been investigating multiculturalism for some years and remain totally convinced this was the major factor in the fall of the Roman Empire - the inability of the Romans to digest and absorb the various cultures that flocked to the capital and beyond the Tiber. And just as today, you had Roman Senators stating immigration was making Rome strong and diverse. Even Claudius, for example, was a champion of mass immigration. But you have to look carefully at what followed: Romans and Italians became a minority in the Roman army, replaced by Gauls, Germans, Goths and other ethnic groups. Foreign religion weakened social coherence and national identity. So called Roman citizens deserted to the invading Vandals and Goths when Rome was actually under serious attack because they were after all immigrants. Above all, a concept of the State or a national identity collapsed so nobody wanted to serve in the army. There is actually some analysis of multiculturalism written by Plato and it would seem many Greek philosophers viewed it as totally inferior for the basis of a successful State. After all, they invented "democracy" so surely their imput has to be taken seriously. The knowledge and experience of multiculturalism was available to the Roman politicians but, as tends to happen, past experience was disregarded. However, uncomfortable a truth it may be, the populations of Europe and the U.K. within a few short decades will be majority Muslim. As there is no sign Europe's muslim populations thus far are ready to embrace secularism (quite the opposite), it would seem we're heading in the wrong direction. Even Vladimir Putin warned of this problem well over a decade ago - a shrinking European population countered by massive immigration. But you can't have Islam and Democracy just like that. It will be either one or the other.

Ann

"If this country is under such immediate and dire threat of an islamic takeover, why is Ms Phillips still living here?"

What an utterly absurd argument. You are saying that someone who loves her country and is worried about its situation, should show this by emigrating. You are taking the piss, I hope.

peter adler

Field:
You accuse JoJo of being racist because she writes:
"As a white woman I do not want to go to a mixed hospital ward A muslim woman would never be subjected to this indignity. "
And then you basically accuse her of having “the idea that no black man can control himself when confronted with the sight of a white woman in a nightie”.
Isn’t it rather racist of you to assume, just because she calls herself a white woman (which in the context obviously means ‘not a muslim woman’), that she is particularly afraid of black men?

phil

perhaps a little late( computer down)but I must say how disgusting was the comment by the XXX who called himself Simon Weisenthal and even worse was his use of that great mans name-perhaps he was one of those being hunted by that office -Peter is a great moderator but this one beat you this time .please never again -thank you stanley for getting there whilst I was away

David Grinnell

The Church of England Newspaper is not officially sanctioned by the Church of England, so perhaps it would be more accurate to use "The Church of England Newspaper", rather than "the Church of England newspaper" when quoting from it, as the way it is currently phrased could give the mistaken impression that it is an officially sanctioned by the Church of England.

Mo H

Everyone believes in a set of ideas, and belief in those ideas fundamentally shapes the individual’s behaviour and outlook in life. It is perfectly possible for someone who isn't religious to act ‘ethically’ - this isn't a point of debate. However the key difference is that in this case the moral compass, the right and wrong, isn't dictated by religion, rather the individual inherently defines this for him or herself.

In society, such values are more stable and constant if based upon religious conviction – for example, people are more likely to speak the truth in difficult situations if it’s seen as a duty to God and they fear His punishment, than if the only motivation is a personal view that truth is generally a good thing.

For all its shortcomings, Christianity has traditionally been the reference point and cement for these values in British society. The move to liberalism, the adoption of secularism and hence the subsequent reining in of the church led to progress in many spheres (scientific and technological for one). But the inevitable result of this separation has been the focus of life shifting towards material gain and pursuit of personal pleasure. The Bishop’s reference to the ‘swinging’ 60’s has some merit but we need to look further back in time to witness the gradual effects of liberal values and their impact in creating a spiritual (and moral) vacuum. We see many examples of issues borne out of this process. Society grapples with questions such as euthanasia, the sanctity of marriage as an institution, treatment of the elderly, the attitude and lack of respect from the young, and so on. All too often these symptoms of the real problem are dealt with ineffectually (for example, ASBO’s will never change the underlying mentality of a young person).

What the Bishop fails to address is how Christianity can provide answers. The reality is that the Church itself has become a ‘victim’ of this shift over the past few centuries – instead of affecting society, it has become affected by it. It is in no position to offer moral certitude on issues when there is so much disagreement, dispute and compromise within its own ranks.

In many ways the waning of Christian influence has left a void but in no way can it be claimed that 'radical' Islam is a replacement. Making such a comment, and comparing Islam with Marxism, demonstrates either extreme naivety on the part of the Bishop or a political motivation to once again whip up hysteria. Perhaps Islam is helping to fill the void bu nobody in Britain is being forced to accept the Islamic belief. If there are individuals making that choice, the Bishop should note that it is because of the strength of the Islamic faith to stand up to intellectual scrutiny and conviction in its teachings. Perhaps it is the lack of these very same characteristics in his own faith that is driving the continued decline he is at pains to highlight?

Peve

"In society, such values are more stable and constant if based upon religious conviction – for example, people are more likely to speak the truth in difficult situations if it’s seen as a duty to God and they fear His punishment, than if the only motivation is a personal view that truth is generally a good thing."
Wrong. A person's morality is stronger if it is built apon an internal belief that something is wrong, rather than if it is built upon the idea that if they do something wrong they will get punished. If it is based on the fear of punishment then people will feel entirely free to break a rule if they feel they will not be found out, while if it is an internal rule the person does it because they feel it is right, and it is part of them, and so are unlikely to do whatever they are not meant to even when there is no chance of them being caught.

B. Wright

Melanie Phillips is one of only a few sensible journalists who can see the obvious. Demographics is how Britain will be taken over. History has shown that as soon as there is a majority of people of one culture, then that is becomes the culture of that country, it makes sense. Breeding at about three times the rate of indiginous Britains, plus further mass immigration, it won't take that long for Islamists to be the majority people in Britain. Work it out for yourself. Everyone knows this but are in a state of denial. All the Islamists have to do is keep a low profile and wait, the rest is inevitable.

Neil Saunders

flipped

You show a weak grasp of demography.

Let us, for the sake of argument, allow your (very conservative) estimate that Muslims currently constitute 3 per cent. (I have no idea, incidentally, where you have obtained this figure from, since even the Home Office has no idea of the exact population of the United Kingdom, let alone its ethnic or religious breakdown.)

The relevant questions to ask are these:

1) What percentage of the under-30s in Britain is Muslim?

2) What percentage of the under-20s?

3) What percentage of the under-10s?

4) What percentage of the under-5s?

5) What percentage of live births in British maternity hospitals in the last year?

If you want an accurate picture of where Britain will be in 30 years' time it is the correct answer to question 5) that will prove most revealing.

Singularity

100 years ago Samuel Butler wrote "Vaccination is the medical sacrament corresponding to baptism. Whether it is or is not more efficacious I do not know." Looks like the jury's still out on both questions.

Verity

"At all levels of national life Islam has gained state funding, protection from any criticism, and the insertion of advisors and experts in government departs national and local."

Hands up all who believe David Cameron and his merry band will change this by one jot or one tittle.

Frank Pulley

Interesting article by Douglas Murray in the new Standpoint Magazine (Published by The Social Affairs Unit)

@http://www.standpointmag.co.uk/the-outsider-june

Extract: [After citing instances of media self- imposed censorship - through fear, when discussing Islam] ...

>"The predominance of Muslims and former Muslims on the front line here is no accident. The Zaire-born Swedish integration minister, Nyamko Sabuni, has been under police protection since speaking out against female genital mutilation and honour killings. As with the cases of Hirsi Ali and Rushdie, it is when someone “from their own side” speaks out that hatred spills over into violence.

So there are obvious choices to make. Will we quietly accept that we live de facto under some of the strictest laws of the sharia? Or will more public figures do Islam the decency of giving it the same place as other ideas in our culture? A place where films are made, books and articles written, cartoons cartooned and religious and political opinions voiced which tell truths, lambast, lampoon and offend, but which afford Islam the dignity of equality.

The BBC and many other media have been cowed. Some artists have finally had the courage to admit they are scared. But we need them to do better than that. We need people with a voice to show that they aren’t scared. Pace the notably unfunny Khomeini, there are lots of jokes in Islam. And that is the sound we should hear — the raucous noise of unfettered debate, laughter and often inevitable offence. Intimidation has been very successful in preventing that offence, and in the process Muslims have been cocooned and the most reactionary versions of their religion accepted as the norm. The antidote is not concession, flattery or silence. The answer is noise.<

Read it all. (And Craig Brown's column in the same issue on the "Top Ten Public Ineffectuals" - very funny).

NSCLondon

Commondog, that's absolute idiocy - are you actually blaming abortion rights for the influx of Muslims?

self outcasted ronin

Greetings.

quote "...under police protection...addresses of their safe houses disclosed...by Muslim officers who think they are doing their religious duty..." End quote.

Strange enough the chit-chat didn't revolve around this hugely outrageous fact.

Integrity to the state you gave an oath to serve or to the 'submit or die' cult of 1400 years old with world domination agenda still on going ?

Obviously a security breach.

Best Regards.