How Osborne and Cameron differ on Iraq

Verity

"The experience of trying to build democracies in Iraq and in Afghanistan, and the way in which Western democracies have conducted some aspects of the fight against terrorism have undermined our standing in the world…we cannot drop democracy from 10,000 feet - and we shouldn't try."

Facile, vacuous, glib, soundbite pr-speak and proof that David Cameron should not be allowed near any government desk, never mind that of prime minister.

BCS

''Cameron’s line about dropping democracy from 10,000 feet is unworthy of him and comes perilously close to being an insult to those members of the coalitions and Iraqis who have been working to build democracy in Iraq from the ground up.''
This is silly. All Cameron is doing is articulating, in a concise if cliched way, a perfectly legitimate foreign policy philosophy - one that has dominated international relations since Richelieu (if not from the dawn of time) and one that has scarcely been confounded by events in Iraq in recent years.
Your post, James, comes ''perilously close'' to the suggestion that saying a publicly run NHS is unsustiable is an insult to hard-working doctors and nurses.

Ray

But is Cameron's analysis - glib, facile or otherwise - actually wrong?

Gil

Cameron is right that democracy cannot be achieved in this way. It is impossible to sell such a policy from a PR point of view after Iraq. The reason for war should be articulated as National Interest e.g.elimination of WMD after all diplomacy has failed or protection of vital resources such as oil and gas. After attainment of that objective, democracy should ensue.

Keith

I can't see Cameron lasting quite frankly. His views do not reflect those of the vast majority of Conservative voters.
Do I hear the sound of knives being sharpened?

ChrisD

Oh dear, some on the right have been chattering amongst themselves.
It is not an insult to have a different point of view after watching the mistakes that those who came before you have made.
In fact, it shows an ability to learn from those mistakes instead continuing to repeat them.
ConHom tried to spin the line that the phrase came close to being offensive to our military, and now you contend that its "perilously close to being an insult to those members of the coalitions and Iraqis who have been working to build democracy in Iraq from the ground up."

I simple think that it indicates a difference of opinion on Foreign policy direction, you won't win the argument by trying to find offence where none was intended.
And talking up successes over the last year in Iraq while the battle has moved to Afghanistan will not wash either.

truth

"…we cannot drop democracy from 10,000 feet - and we shouldn't try.”

An honest assessment in the light of experience.
Good on you, David.
Mind you, I won't be voting for you. The Eton led governments of the past 50 years have been as bad as the Labour ones for me.

TGF UKIP

"A little too Old Tory for comfort" is the phrase used by Daniel Korski. And, James. that is what Cameron quintessentially is - by birth, background and education, an old fashioned, patrician, paternalistic, One Nation, europhile Tory with a marked distate for Americans especially conservative Americans from the boondocks.

It was, of all people, Matthew d'Ancona, who gave the game away last November when he posted "As was once pointed out to me by a very senior cameroon, it is no accident that David inherited Douglas Hurd's seat."

The saddest thing is not so much that Dave conned so many Tories over his credentials in 2005 but that he continues to be able to pull the wool over their eyes to this day.

What is going to suit Dave down to the ground is that if and when he wins in 2010 it will be by a narrow margin. That way he will be able to continue on his present path pleading that to depart and become a freedom and democracy loving conservative would too much "frighten the horses" or "deluge the voters with doubt."

McCain is going to have to look elsewhere for serious allies.

Ian C

The lessons of Iraq are quite clear fpr sny future attempt at democratising anyone. That is not to say that it was a complete failure and should never be attempted again. It just needs doing from a lower level than 10,000 feet!

This is not in question and talk of differences between Osborne and Cameron is a search for not needed journalistic oxygen.

John W

"Cameron’s line about dropping democracy from 10,000 feet is unworthy of him and comes perilously close to being an insult to those members of the coalitions and Iraqis who have been working to build democracy in Iraq from the ground up." - What utter nonsense, do stop carping on.

Victor, NW Kent

Cameron is, of course, absolutely correct except for the fact that most aerial bombing by the USA is conducted from 30,000 feet.

How he voted in 2003 does not bind him to the same view for all time. MPs voted on the basis of a false dossier of threats. They should indeed change their minds as the truth comes to light.

Dirk Blade

Well, we'll see if his analysis is correct in a few years. At the moment, as well as being cliched, the vagueness allows us, and our enemies, to make certain deductions about Britain's reliability as an ally.

If, as now seems very likely, a stable, democratic Iraq emerges, and acts as a lodestar for the democratic reform movements across the Middle East and elsewhere, it will have been no thanks to the Tory party, who have been pretty lame on Iraq for the past few years. Instead of indulging moveon.org talking points, they should have been pressing for an adequate force, and the determination to use it. Whatever the rights and wrongs of the initial undertaking, there is no national interest in seeing British sailors humiliated by Iranians, or in doing deals with militia that undermine the democratic government we purport to support.

The lesson for our enemies is that British leaders are at best fairweather friends, and are the true inheritors of the 'body-bag' culture, and the likely centre of gravity in any future coalition.

Kirsty

He's absolutely right, Iraq is a farce. The decision to go to war is wrong in the first place, we certainly shouldn't try it again! His statement doesn't mean he's less a defender of democracy than anyone. I think he's an realist, and he's able to learn from mistake. Pre-emptive was is not the way to spread democracy.

mark

Its the sheer breathtaking dishonesty that gets me.

Cameron knows perfectly well that no one ever suggested democracy could be "dropped from 10,000 feet" "imposed" or any of the other glib, silly desriptions used mainly by the unthinking and increasingly "post" left.

The fact is that Iraqi's did have the opportunity to vote - no "dropping" or "imposition" involved - just purple fingered Iraqis voting in their millions. In endorsing the ugly prejudices of the worst on the so called "left" Cameron shows himself unfit for office.