Brown isn't paid to lie to us

Keith

Please stop calling them 'Brownies'.

They are LIES!!

Andrew Spencer

Well perhaps that should be a question a Tory backbencher should ask at PMQs, though knowing Brown he wouldnt answer it. It is shocking the extent to which he will lie. I can never understand when people say that whatever else he may be Brown is a fundamentally decent guy. No he is not: he is a congenital liar and was utterly disloyal to his boss for years.

Alex R

No. Is interesting that others are losing their patience as well.

Think it is very interesting that Robert Peston fisked Brown's interview with Marr.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/robertpeston/2008/09/creditcrunched_gordon_brown.html

Don't remember a BBC jounro doing that in the past.

Robert Williams

"He repeated his Sky/Marr line: that debt had gone down from 44% to 37% of GDP." Unrepentant he also used it in his Today interview at 8:10.

He added another Brownie. Naughtie recounted various recent warnings of the bust to follow boom. He got this response from Brown

"James this is completely nonsense, you know this, because we have had negative growth in Germany,negative growth in France, negative growth in Spain, Ireland is undergoing a recession, america has had negative growth. We have not yet recorded negative growth"

Untrue re the USA

(listen at http://news.bbc.co.uk/today/hi/today/newsid_7632000/7632987.stm

(This Brownie at about 8.5minutes into recording)

Enough Already

This again shows Brown to either be incompetent, or dishonest, neither of which are traits we want in our PM. Sadly though, the opposition seem unable to hold Brown to account, the media rarely do a decent job at it, so he gets away with it.

adrian drummond

I wish journalists had tackled the former PM (Blair) over his lying and deceit whilst he was in power. If they had done their jobs properly we may not have landed up with the current incumbent. A climate has been allowed to form where senior politicians believe they can get away with blatant lying.

Austin Barry

Fraser, I'm beginning to agree with those CoffeeHousers who think we should dispense with the almost affectionate 'Brownie' euphemism and others such as 'fibbing'. Let's use 'lies' and not diminish the word with modifiers, 'tiny, little'. As well as being apposite there's something bleak and unequivocal with 'lies''lying' and 'liar'. Indeed, it was great to see you use the word on tv to Prescott last weekend. I'm surprised he didn't chin you or give you one of those patronising arm grasps, but at throat level. So let's hear it, all together now: Prime Minister Brown lied today about etc. etc. etc.

TrevorsDen

1997 came after all the problems with the ERM. I believe that the government was in surplus in 1997 and in a good position to bring debt down. We are currently in massive and increasing deficit and are not in any position to decrease debt.

The other point to remember is that following the G3 (or was it 4?) phone licence negociations brown was in receipt of a windfall of at least £20 billion which he used to repay the national debt. So in any event the decrease in debt by his own arithmetic is nothing at all to do with any political economic genius on his part.

Tiberius

The whole basis of New Labour PR is that there is no mechanism to enforce sanctions against ministers for this sort of behaviour. From Ecclestone to Northern Rock, we've seen it all.

While I don't expect the Cameroons to be whiter than white (in the Blair-Disney fantasy sense), I would not expect them to stoop to Brown's level.

jon dee

Your campaign to expose and publicise Browns lies is needed.His speech was a litany of half-truths and lies not least the Osborne misquote.Today he repeats falsehoods about the national debt.Perhaps it is lying which predominates his DNA.

Mike, Brighton

Fraser
Good article, if you want more check out today's WSJ about Brown:
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122220166509568319.html?mod=djemEditorialPage
Ouch! Not very complementary and somewhat at odds with commentators on this side of the pond who thought Brown did well yesterday!

Gavin

Please don't stop publishing the lies, however small. There are too many journalists making a living tittivating Government Press releases and asking soft questions. We need a strong fourth estate asking challenging questions and holding politicians/civil servants and spin doctors to account on the web of words they weave ! It's one of the reasons some of us read Coffee House.

Joe Mooney

Keep up your good work Fraser.

GB hopes that by telling lies he hopes to get re-elected. However,the British people will see through it. They will chuck him out at the next election.

mac

Just to add to the supportive litany above, Fraser, keep on exposin' (so to speak!) If using the word 'Brownie' as a euphemism for 'lie' is a precaution recommended by your lawyers, then so be it. We know these are lies.

Mike. Brighton

Mr Brown announced in his Labour Party conference speech that he would be meeting "financial and Government leaders in New York" in a bid to resolve the financial crisis gripping world economies...but er Hank Poulson the US Treasury Secretary and er man in charge of resolving the financial crisis is er a tad busy and can't meet the great man.
Makes me proud to have such an influential statesman leading this country. Not

GS London

Isn't lying in such a manner illegal?

It's equivalent to what Peston alledgedly did on BBC last week: instead of -perhaps accidentally in Peston's case- misrepresenting the markets and giving false impressions to stockbrokers, Brown is misrepresenting the economy to it's people.

oldtimer

Keep it up! And like others here, please call the spade a spade and call the lies for what they are - lies.

It is a welcome change to see/hear the broadcast media be more direct with their questions. Notice how Brown tries to change the issue or implies an answer to a question that was not asked - a typical politians ploy. He did this when Adam Boulton quizzed hime over his misquote of George Osborne.

James

Intersting part of the BBC interview followed Brown's comment about "no country does that". He went on to compare Britain with the US with a comment to the effect that "their debt is bigger and is rising after the amount they have just put into the markets".

Isn't this the same thing? We bail out Northern Rock, they bail out Freddie May and Fannie Mac. In contrast - they account correctly for their debt and Brown lies about ours.

One more contrast with the US - the non bail-out of Lehman Brothers was a big indicator of what should have happened over Northern Rock. Let the bank fail and let other banks pick up the bits of the business that are worth anything. Northern Rock was certainly not as important to our markets as Freddie, Fannie, Bearn Stearns or AIG - we should have kept our powder dry.

TrevorsDen

Brown may not be talking to Poulson but he is taking some high flying opinion formers with him
"Also travelling with the Prime Minister were Elle Macpherson and the Duchess of York" -- so says The Telegraph.

Its good to know the prime minister does not use people as props

John of Enfield

Gordon Brown lacks integrity.

This is transparently obvious in every speech, address, PMQT and article he delivers.

Funnily enough, judging by the opinion polls, 75% or more of the electorate have also spotted this.

Polly's (not that one) mum

Fraser, could you possibly email your posts regarding brownies to no. 10 each time, and ask for comments? Alternatively, could SOMEONE when interviewing our Dear Leader say something along the lines of "I think you are misleading us here, sir. That is not the truth, is it?" and see what the reaction is.
That BBC woman did a very good job, I thought.

James H

Bored of Brownies?

Well, sick of them- but never sick of them being exposed in detail. Keep it up! Fantastic to have them dissected so rapidly.

The Huntsman

"that debt had gone down from 44% to 37% of GDP."

"In May 1997, UK net debt was £351bn or 43.2%. In August 2008 it was £632bn and 43.3%."

"I suspect some CoffeeHousers will get bored on these Brownies, and ask does it really matter about a tiny percentage figure."

The bare-faced lie (let us call a spade a spade) is not merely about the 0.1% difference between the position in May 1997 and now but between his claim of a seven per cent drop in debt as a percentage of GDP on his watch.

On any view, that is a real whopper.

Edward Benson

Sorry, but this is sanctimonious nonsense. Politicians aren't paid to be 'honest' with us. If any of them were, they wouldn't last a minute.

maas101

Keep it up Fraser.

I especially enjoyed Brown crediting the labour party with giving the working man the vote during his speech. The fact that it happened before the labour party existed was it seems, irrelevant.

I thought the man studied history at university.

Alfred T Mahan

You're doing a fabulous job with this. Keep it up! But where is Her Majesty's Loyal Opposition? Surely they and the House of Commons should be doing exactly what you are doing? Can some someone please explain to me, slowly so that I understand, why they aren't?

Dominic Allkins

The man has no morals, no shame and no sense of what he is doing to this country. I for one have had enough.

I've decided to start a blog specifically to try and highlight the mendacity of not just GB (although he's a good target to start with) but all politicians who play fast and loose with the truth.

Sorry for the plug, but I'll need some help in getting this going and Coffee House seemed the most natural place to start. If you have any good examples, other than those already highlighted on Coffee House, of GB's or any other Brownies anywhere then please let me know.

Also, if you're a bit of a design guru and could spare a few mins to whip something suitable up that would be great.

No posts yet - only just gone up. URL is http://politicalbrownies.blogspot.com/

Thanks in advance and anyone helping will be suitably namechecked/hat-tipped.

Thomas Cussans

Couple more outright lies from McManiac's interview this morning on the Today programme.

"There are no political issues between Ruth [Kelly] and me" ... to which the only rational response is Ha! Ha! and Ha! again.

And the even more laughable claim that he shielded us when the price of oil "jumped" from $10 to $150. This "jump" actually took place between February 1999, when the price of oil was $9.30 per barrel, and July 2008, when oil peaked at $145 per barrel.

A lag of nine and-a-half years hardly suggests much in the way of "jumping" even for someone so famously given to "long-term thinking".

David Lindsay

Recessions make people cautious, and so likely to vote for the status quo rather than for change.

If David Davis, say, were Tory Leader, with someone equally dependable-looking as Shadow Chancellor, then things might be different.

But Cameron and Osborne scattering stardust about the place? Against the man who by Spring 2010 will be dear old "oh well, at least we know what we're getting" Gordon Brown? Forget it.

Remember, the economy had picked up by 1997. If it hadn't, then Major would have beaten, not Smith or Brown, but certainly Blair.

Bill

Are you surprised? Leftists are fundamentally dishonest.

As Melanie Phillips pointed out a couple of weeks ago, deep down they all know they're wrong.

Lying to the electorate is nothing when you can lie to yourself.

strapworld

In his speech, David Cameron could, honestly, observe that 'I may be untested but I assure you all I will always give you an honest answer to a question, I would not debase the office of First lord to the Treasury and Prime Minister as Gordon Brown has done shamelessly over the National Debt and other matters!

David Parker

It doesn't say much for the Labour party that their standards of integrity are so lacking that they willingly endorse Brown's compulsive mendacity and dishonesty.

They may be exiled to outer darkness for a decade and let us hope that they are, but our political class in Britain have now descended almost to the level of Nigeria, where allegations of corruption and dishonesty are almost essential qualifications for a successful political career and the accolades go to the most convincing liars.

If only labour could find just one honest potential leader, prepared to admit that his party had failed the country for the past ten years, in terms of both competence and honesty, and needed to reinvent itself, as the Tories claim to have done, this might not only reduce the magnitude of their defeat at the next election, but allow them to begin a reconstruction far sooner than the Tories were able to do.

However, I doubt if even Harry Potter could achieve such a magic transformation of the dishonest, disorganised and dis-united rabble to which Blair and Brown have managed to foist upon this country.

Most sickening of all is the contempt with which Brown insults the intelligence of the voters, by pretending that the last ten years of Labour rule have been a triumphant success.
Perhaps the Spectator might consider inserting a regular page entitled "An eye for a lie"?

Marian C

Great piece Fraser, keep up the good work.

However, can we dispense with the euphemisms such as 'Brownies' and 'Fibs' (irrespective of size)and call them by the correct names, which are LIES.

GB is nothing more than a compulsive LIAR, and a national disgrace.

Keith

@Edward Benson.

What absolute claptrap. I don't expect politicians to lie. Being economical with the truth is one thing but telling outrageous lies is another.
Get real!!

TGF UKIP

Yes, Fraser, and Brown repeated 44% to 37% to his pal Naughtie on the Today Programme. But aren't you getting fed up with posting along these lines so frequently? For my part I am certainly growing tired of sounding like a cracked record by saying it's not the slightest use you and other Coffee Housers whingeing on or railing at Gordon for his contual lying when he knows he can do so with impunity because of the complete absence of HM Lame and Lamentable Opposition.

As I posted many months ago, pre 97 New Labour never hestitated in using the "L" word. Indeed, their phrase habitually was "Tory sleaze and lies." As I've also posted before, one of the reasons why Dave is perceived by 55% of voters as "lightweight" is that he doesn't get stuck into Gordon, seeming to be much more of a dilettante than hungry for power.

Indeed, at the moment it seems to be a fight between two combatants, one of whom is fighting according to LTA rules and the other Toxteth rules.

Long, long past the time for the Tories to call a liar a liar and stop being as fastidious as Tiberius wishes them to be.

2010 is a very long way from being won as a closer scrutiny of the polls bears witness.

Fraser Nelson

Edward, I know that politicians normally exaggerate. But in times of financial crisis I think Brown does have a moral duty to say how much debt he has taken out on our behalves. We simply have to know how much we're all in for.

Alfred, because it's blood boring. Sian argued with him enough today: she had a ten-minute interview for a lay audience. I wouldn't have wasted airtime by going on about percentages of GDP.

GS, if Brown had made his claim in a document regulated by the London Stock Exchange it would be illegal. If he said it in the Commons, the protocol demands he would have to correct himself. But there's no law against lying on television.

sandy

Sian Williams is beginning to stand out against the otherwise relentless pro-Labour bias of the BBC.
A few months back she gave Alan Johnson an uncomfortable time on the Breakfast sofa with a few awkward questions he clearly didn't expect or appreciate from someone from the BBC.

Can it really be that soon, ministers will be agreeing to go on Breakfast only on condition that Ms.Williams is not asking the questions?

teledu

Well done Fraser; your country needs you. Keep it up.
Shouldn't the tories appoint an anorak to track Brown's lies and furnish DC with the details to be used at PMQ's and every other opportunity. Let's get the Brown-is-a-liar fact out into the open (ie with Daily Mirror / Sun readers).

Alex

I agree with everyone else.

If you want more media exposure on these lies (we we all do) - keep it simple - they are lies, so call them 'lies'.

John Page

"we have a PM who knowingly and routinely misleads the people he is paid to be honest with" - since when were politicians paid to be honest?!

Frank Pulley

"Brown isn't paid to lie for us"

No, but he's quite prepared to do it at the drop of a hat, for nothing. But he's a ho in so many other ways!

Pete

How on earth do we get this across to mr & Mrs Bloggs that only ever watch and read tabloid stuff?

Frank Pulley

Dominic

Why don't you just reproduce all his speeches, the compilation would be a 'brownie' the size of a dinosaur's droppings. It would be easier, though, to feature a one page pamphlet of his true statements.

Nicholas

TGF correct. Cameron and Tories need to start fighting dirty. I can see no evidence of any PR strategy reinforcing the growing public doubt about Brown & Co. I listen to the radio every day and the Tories never even get a mention. It is all about Gordon Brown and New Labour navel gazing.

They seem a dozy lot when it comes to marketing and PR.

John Wilkie

of course Brown isn't paid to lie to us - he does it for free

mart

Fraser, I have arrived late to this discussion. But please do keep publishing information about the economy in response to misleading statements by Mr Brown - or anyone else for that matter.

You can call them Brownies if you like. I don't care. But whatever they are called, you are fulfilling a public service by publishing these detailed critiques. I'm not able to read similar material anywhere else.

I wouldn't be at all surprised if the BBC's Ms Williams was made aware of these figures through your own intervention on the telly on Sunday.

So, keep it up.

And, when the time comes, I hope you will be as rigorous with the statements made by representatives of the next government.

Christopher Squire

Re: "I suspect some CoffeeHousers will get bored on these Brownies"

Bored WITH or BY, dear boy . .

wrinkled weasel

Fraser Nelson has a bee in his bonnet about Gordon Brown's lies - or "Brownies" as he prefers to call them, as they are subtly different from lies, but the same.

They are however, just a part of a many layered web of treason.

It appears to me that we live in a political climate where campaigning for party, position and polls is now a 24/7 occupation. Gone are the days when a party won an election and got on with Governance until a little before the next election. Opinion must be formed, shaped, schmoozed not daily, but hourly. It must remain "on message". (We had the announcement of a Cabinet resignation at 3am in a bar. Was that a mistake?)

This shaping of opinion or "spin" as it is commonly known goes back to the hapless bad old days of Labour when there were gaffes galore and they were public and they cost votes. It came from what at least was a pragmatic if not wholly benign motive, but has now morphed into a standard operating procedure that serves to hide and obfuscate.

In 2004, Ted Kennedy said of the Bush administration:

"Sadly, this administration has failed to live up to basic standards of open and candid debate. On issue after issue, they tell the American people one thing, and do another. They repeatedly invent facts to support their preconceived agenda. Facts which administration officials knew, or should have known, were not true."

I submit that Brown is no different. He is in fact worse. He and his Government lie to the people of this country every day. On nearly everything.

The other day I had the temerity to suggest that Watergate was not fatal, compared to Iraq.

John Dean, speaking about Bush, has said,

"Nobody died during Watergate. None of the Watergate—so-called Watergate “abuses of power” resulted in the loss of a life. And we’re in a situation now where the abuse of power has cost a lot of lives."

(Dean, you will remember was White House Counsel to Nixon and was prosecuted over Watergate.)

Blair lied about Iraq. Brown lied about Iraq. Both are complicit, both are guilty of the deaths of thousands, predicated on lies. Watergate did not come close.

This Government has used another layer of treason; suppression of facts. Witness the fight it had over the publication of the “dodgy dossier”. – see

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/feb/21/israelandthepalestinians.iraq

“How Labour used the law to keep criticism of Israel secret”

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/ministers-suppress-child-asylum-statistics-757690.html

Ministers suppress child asylum statistics

http://www.ukwatch.net/article/labour_government_gags_%E2%80%9Cextraordinary_renditions%E2%80%9D_whistleblower

Labour Government Gags “Extraordinary Renditions” Whistleblower

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-447296/Secret-paper-reveals-Labours-lies-ID-cards.html

Secret paper reveals Labour's lies over ID cards

There are many, many more.

Watervole

You put the rest of the Brownie press to shame.

Lets call a spade a spade, weasel words, whoppers, porkies, half truths or that simple but unsavoury word - LIES!

yarnesfromhorsham

Keep the Brownies coming - they may be small lies but they are bound to lead to larger lies - thats the sort of man GB is.
Heard on BBC Today that GB is in NY to have talks about helping pensioners - thats how it came acrosss - so what was his £5b pa tax on UK pension funds about

Frederick James

Can I add a "me too", Fraser.

The compilation of these falsehoods is a valuable service and I sincerely hope that David Cameron is merely biding his time before he makes hay with them.

I understand why you do not call them "lies" but, as others have observed, "Brownies" (reminiscent of "porkies") makes them sound anodyne rather than as the calculated acts of deceit that they really are. We do need a better name.

Thortung

I hope Cameron takes every opportunity during the election campaign to highlight these lies and to emphasis that whatever gewgaws are promised by labour in their manifesto, those promises hold as much water as the labour manifesto promise on the eu constituion referendum.

Fraser Nelson

Frederick, we asked CoffeeHousers a while ago what to call them and Brownies was the consensus. I quite liked McPorkies, but the Mc was rather grauitous. Open to ideas if you want to suggest....

Fraser Nelson

TGF, I suspect we're both getting a little tired of this - but we're both right. And encouraged by our fellow CoffeeHousers we should both keep on going.

Hadrian

Fraser,
Here once again is a perfect example of why you yourself and not Dave et al should be facing the One both of us unhappily have to call a fellow countryman across the Floor of the House.
Brown or Blair- take your pick of which you abominate the most! One bleeds us dry, the other bleeds blubbery emotion all over us. May they both be gone soon.

lola

'Brownies' they are.

Nearly everyone I know (except dyed in the wool 'labour can never do any wrong' lefties) describes him with one word, deceitful.

The man is essentially deceitful in his politicking. (I hope he is not so in his private life). An interesting question is why? He must know that he will be found out? He's not totally daft so he must know that he is being selective and presentational? Why does he think that he will get away with it? And what part of his background and upbringing made him this way?

Just what is going on in that 'orrible 'ead?