In the face of this madness, some facts

rippon

Here’s another fact: On Wed, the IDF quietly withdrew the claim it made on Tue – that militants were firing from within the UN school (which the IDF shelled ‘in retaliation’).

Ms Phillips should not put so much faith in the veracity of the IDF’s statements.

FFScotland

And here is one single fact that you seemed to have overlooked in all your recent blogs.

Israeli soldiers have killed nearly one thousand people in Gaza, including a very large number of children.

ahem

It's fear, Melanie. If a problem is acknowledged, then Something Has To Be Done About It, and people are just too scared. Better to postpone action until it's absolutely unavoidable and possibly too late, just as in olden days.

W. B. Harris

Melanie – keep sharing the truth that passes all understanding of the liberals and uninformed. Since reading your articles.. I’ve tried to keep more attuned to whether the liberal controlled media and have noticed a few times that even the U.N. was quoted as saying that Hamas is trying to use their own for shields and use buildings where people gather, live and even schools and hospitals to egg the Israeli ‘retaliations’ to hit… then cry innocence.

Everyone, please keep ask that the Hounds of Baskerville to report the Truth and demand that fair honest reporting by all media, which is the duty of every good journalist. If they aren’t doing their job properly – get rid of them because you won’t buy or watch their lies.

My vote has been for you Melanie on the blog voting – regardless, you are great and there appears to be a lot of people who agree. Remember –the Truth always WINS!

Shlomo

I think it definitely is time for the entire British Jewish community to be evacuated to Israel. The Bosnian Jewish community was evacuated in 1992 and they weren't even being specifically targeted.

Noach from DownUnder

again good on you, Melanie: the MSM [mainstream media] bias their reporting to what appeals to the basest and most populist of levels in the hope that it will sell - to the "middleclass Englishmen in keffiyehs" boarding the Northern Line to go howl at the Jews and appease the Muslim paying customer.

The blogosphere - as instanced in your writing - lets us bypass that diseased fourth-estate. So thankks and keep it up.

Michael B

This remains - both in terms of the global war against jihadism and Islamicist militancy in general and in terms of the Gaza conflict against Iran's proxy - an ideological and information based (media, propaganda, PR, etc.) war first and foremost. The military aspect itself, properly understood and without mitigating its crucial importance, is secondary to the ideological and information based aspects of the overall conflict.

This is why Pope Benedict's Regensburg address (2006?) effectively illuminated an absolutely pivotal aspect of that ideological divide, because most basically he was illuminating the difference between conceptions which ultimately avail themselves to reason, properly understood, and conceptions which do not avail themselves to reason. This is also, fundamentally, why post-modern excesses (Deleuze, Rorty, Derrida, Said, et al.) in the west serve as corrosives rather than beneficial correctives to malignancies that manifest themselves within the ideological and information front of the general conflict. That which remains - ultimately, if not always immediately and apparently - susceptible to reason, to the word, can be fought on rational, cogent grounds, on grounds susceptible to moral suasion, etc. This is also why the media, from the smilingly earnest talking-heads to sundry others, effectively serves malevolence when they fail to report representative facts or when they spin the facts in favor of ideological and political agendas or due to cooptations as a result of raw power and manipulations. (Otoh the Vatican has not served itself particularly well more recently, with the announcement by Cardinal Renato Martino.)

Anthony Smythe-Barrinton

Melanie works very hard to keep her arguments going and presumably the "facts" that she has cited here are the best available.They consist of (inter alia)

1)An IDF blog
2)A link that doesn't work
3)An Israeli embed with the IDF
4)PMW-funded by the Israeli government
5) An out of work Egyptian actor
6)The Jerusalem Post
7)An interview between a prominent Anglo Jewish journalist and a discharged Colonel with curious links to the present U.K government

I'm not entirely sure that I don't see a pattern here.....

K. Adebayo

One thing has been bothering me a lot, the number of people who have died in the conflicts in Congo and the Sudan exceed the whole population of Gaza. Yet I do not see any protesters going to the streets day after day demanding the end to the bloodshed. The passion shown by the protesters seems to be knee-jerk hatred towards Israel

ROD WRIGHT

Colonel Kemp - surely Colonel Blimp. I love that phase asymmetrical warfare instead of massacre. Of course the Americans must have given approval to the massacre because the immense quantity of JP-4 aviation fuel needed for the F16's and of course spares and maintenance must have been approved by the Bush administration several months ago (Brown must also have known unless the SIS is now totally useless). The yanks might not do irony but we still do and the sight of Melanie Philips side by side with Blair and the Brown government with ultra Blairite, Lorna Fitzsimons blowing the Israeli trumpet is very sweet to see

Jim

Yes Mealanie

Terrorists reside one one side and the victims on the other

Latest : 831 Palestinians killed to 13 Israelis

GC

The Gaza girl in Melanie's clip couldn't possibly have appeared on Hamas controlled TV and indeed the link makes it clear that she appeared on Fatah television and that's something I would have liked to have seen explained.

I hope she's safely out of Gaza incidentally.

YA

too good news to be true, but that explains hysteria raised today in the pro-terrorist camp here in Britain -

http://www.debka.com/article.php?aid=1372

PERFORMANCE OF IDF IS VERY GOOD SO FAR.

btw events in London near Israeli embassy repeat in miniature the conflict in Israel - here they are, "women and children" used as cover for hateful bullies, "defensive barriers", "missiles", and all that jazz.

That is illogical that police didn't make arrests. At least these cads must pay for the damage, and clean up the mess they left in the streets.

Robbins Mitchell

Well,what few Plantagenets there are of us left here recognize that in this conflict,just as in the Hundred Years War,the more casualties you inflict on the enemy when you finally do draw bow,the fewer there will be next time you have to square off....God for Harry,England,and St. George...and the IDF

Judith, NYC

Israel should fight the war like it is a war. The most humane thing for all, Gaza Arabs & Israelis alike, is a solid victory. What's w/ this namby-pamby daily cease-fire...since when do enemies provide each other w/ humanitarian aid during the fighting or not(Hamas steals all the medical supplies for itself anyway.) No matter what Israel does it is subject to the pusillanimous opprobrium of the int'l community, including deluded Condi Rice, so the IDF should just fight to win w/o having its hands tied & w/o concern for the bias BBC reporting that's based on propaganda news feed straight from Hamas Media Inc. It's a war crime to the Israeli people that the IDF jeopardizes the lives of it's own soldiers to that of the Jihad indoctrinated Gazan terrorists & civilians. Shame Israel has to carry the weight of the world since we all know that if the terrorists win in one place they are emboldened in another...including the UK...for they will follow the strong horse, as Bin Laden says. Child's logic, weaken Hamas & weaken the Jihadist cause worldwide.

Melanie thanks for your courageous lone sane, smart & honest voice in the UK. Only the weak & immoral can be intimidated.

Amos Fabian

Staff-Sgt. Dvir Emmanueloff is Israel's first casualty of the war in Gaza. He was a close friend of my colleague at work. Staff-Sgt. Nitai Stern, killed shortly after, was a relative of a second co-worker.

Israel is a small country. We all have relatives or friends who are soldiers in Gaza and/or residents of southern Israel.
Living in the center of the country means I am not within range of Hamas rockets or
subject to sirens alerting me to find shelter; however, I have family
members and friends who are. I am concerned and worried about all of
them, so you can imagine the constant flow of phone calls, SMSs and
emails. It is difficult to concentrate on anything else.

Difficult - but necessary.

In the past eight years, countries and organizations around the world
have donated billions of dollars to better Gaza's crumbling
infrastructure and poor living conditions. But instead of improving
the lives of its citizens, the Hamas "leadership" used the monies to
purchase rockets and train and supply suicide bombers who were sent
into the centers of Israel, indiscriminately murdering innocent
people. At the same time, Hamas has fired rockets into Sderot and
other villages around the Gaza Strip.

Until three weeks ago, we had a six-month "cease fire", during which
Hamas still occasionally fired rockets. Hamas used this period to
purchase new and improved rockets that can reach 40 kilometers, from
Beer Sheba in the south to Gedera up north. Compared to "only" about
50,000 people previously in danger, now 1 million are within rocket
range, more than 1/7 of our population. As I noted, Israel is a small country.

When Hamas started firing again, just before the official end of the
cease fire, Israel finally decided - enough is enough. What we see on
TV or on websites is a result of Israel pursuing terrorists who
cowardly hide within their own population, stashing weapons in
mosques, universities, hospitals and homes of innocent people.

The children of Gaza live in a war zone, courtesy of Hamas. By the
way, so do the kids in Sderot and southern Israel, for the past eight
years, also thanks to Hamas. The difference (one difference): Since
the beginning of the war, Israel has closed down all the schools in
the south, which is fortunate, since rockets, fired randomly,
destroyed three schools and a kindergarten. In Gaza, kids are used as
human shields. So are the adults, of course.

Hamas has only one grievance: Israel's very existence. Israel is the
litmus test for the rest of the world. Hamas is a puppet on Iran's
strings, which provides weapons, funds, training and anti-Western
ideology. Our problem today is the world's problem tomorrow, if not
today.

I wish things were simpler, but they are not. There is moral clarity,
on our side, but that doesn't make it any easier. Only clearer

Canon Alberic

The least one can do confronted by the calculated shaming moral opacity chosen by so many of our former "gentle, decent civilised" compatriots is to go to Trafalgar Square at 11 - 1pm today and show some solidarity with reason and truth; and opposition to the forces represented by a coalition of anti-semites, political cultists and self-dramatising pensionable former pop personalities - or in the case of Tariq Ali all 3.

GC

Michael B @ 11:58 pm

Well I couldn't agree more I think.

Thus Benedict XVI at Regensburg: "The positive aspects of modernity are to be acknowledged unreservedly: we are all grateful for the marvellous possibilities that it has opened up for mankind and for the progress in humanity that has been granted to us."

and here's some postmodern twitter from Best and Kellner writing in 1991 offering an excessive degree of caution:"Indeed a Big Story is now going on; we are living through some dramatic changes that are putting into question previous social theories and policies. Yet an important part of the story is the transformation and restructuring of capitalism, the advent to a new stage of capitalism that is affecting, as developments in capitalism tend to do, the entirety of our life ... {remainder of paragraph omitted} ... Finally, a critical theory of the present moment would provide an account of the profound ambiguity of our present age, rather than wallowing in fashionable postmodern pessimism, or regressing to technocratic or liberal optimism. For the present moment contains both utopian and dystopian aspects which open towards conflicting futures. The information explosion could work either to multiply or pluralize information or cancel all meaning in a meaningless noise; it could enhance literary skills or deaden them; it could decentralize information so that all people have easy and equal access, or it could further the control and domination of ruling elites who monopolise information and computer teacnologies ... [Steven Best and Douglas Kellner; 'Postmoderm Theory: Critical interrogations' p 302 MacMillan 1991 ISBN 0-333-48845-8]

Well at least I could understand that. HTH.

leo solomon

Jew hatred lurked below the surface from the time the camps were opened and their contents were revealed.What was once unadorned is now resurrected and dressed with the moral fig leaf of humanitarian concern for a people who openly proclaim their love of death- whose raison detre is the conversion or annihilation of all ifidels(including their most vociferous supporters in the west) and the establishment of a caliphate everywhere.

HarleyDavidson

Anthony Smythe-Barrinton
Well, Anthony, why don't you list all the sites, including the names of individuals, news organizations, ( who are not in Gaza for your info, and yes that does indeed include the BBC, the Guardian, and thee UN who only can comment on the building where they are hiding out) or any other entity where you get your information.

FFScotland
Did you at any time write on this blog and complain about Hamas firing 6000 rockets into Israel? Did you at any time make any attempt to warn Hamas of the dangers of firing 6000 rockets into Israel? Does the military in your country store its military weapons in churches? Schools? Perhaps in your home? Or the homes of your neighbors? Does your military use your women and children as defensive shields and do you allow your women and children to be used as such? Does the military in your country use churches, schools, hospitals and personal homes as military war zones?

Can you even name one nation or government on earth who uses such tactics? And then complain when THEY get shot at in return?

You see, Anthony, that why they're called terrorists! You see, the Israeli ground forces are just there on the outskirts of their towns and cities. They're not hard to find. Do the Hamas terrorists want to come out and fight man to man and perhaps live up to their propaganda? You know, the bluster and courage of the cowards who scream how they would be great martyrs and other such nonsense and then hide behind women and children.

You want to stop the killing, well then, why not ask your terror friends to stop the rockets. That it! Just stop the rockets. That's all Hamas needed to do to prevent this entire war. Israel begged them, flew to Egypt, (numerous times) and even Egypt begged Hamas to re-sign the cease fire. Two guesses Anthony who refused to re-sign the ceasefire. Nope, not Israel. It was your terrorists friends, Hamas. Who then went on and began firing up to 80 rockets a day into Israel.

So you'll get no apologies from me for the human cost Hamas brought on itself. Nor will I find a day in my life when I side with terrorists. And I am quite sure Mohammad, peace be upon him, and the great Arabic leader Saladin would find today's Muslims who hide behind women and children beneath contempt. Because both were great men who covered themselves with great honor on the battlefield and their word was their bond even to the vanquished. Where do you see honor in Hamas and their actions?

Pete Hoskin

Mr T: your comment has been removed. It should neveer have made it up in the first place.

logdon: your comment hasn't been approved, for obvious reasons. Apologies.

FFSCotland

I appreciate Amos Fabian's comment which is both heartfelt and respectful. Rather few comments like these in this column unfortunately.

I also commend Dominic Lawson's article linked by Melanie's piece above, which is probably as a good a defence of the Israeli action as we're going to see. To my mind, his arguments fall short of justifying the near 1000 deaths in Gaza, but as often, I agree to disagree.

stanley Jerusalem

GC and Michael B -
Please tell me in what language you are writing.
I have found all your words in the OED but your combinations baffle me.

Vision Aforethought

We're losing this one. And now the media are attempting to demonise a young, naive but well meaning young man who had his privacy invaded throught the release of some video footage. Said young man now fighting for the right of people of all denominations to express their opinion on blogs like this. I refer of course to Prince Harry.

These issues are all related - if you know what I mean. Truth and common sense are being tripped away. And the media are intentionally stirring up the emotions of those unable to take a joke or discard their hate by giving such massive coverage to such a minor story - albiet, 3 years old!

Ann

Melanie, the western media stopped being bystanders in this a long time ago. They are now one of the protagonists in this story.

The American Thinker website gets to the core of this today:

"The key is not the terrorists. They are stuck in their ways. The real key is the international media --- who are hardly neutral observers as they like to pretend. The international leftist media are essential players in this melodrama...

"In fact, it is the media themselves who are criminally complicit in the internment of Gaza's civilians in the line of fire. They could stop the terrorists simply by headlining Hamas' responsibility for the plight of the Arabs of Gaza, over and over again. That's the real story - if only they could headline the facts right in front of their eyes. But they don't.

"That shows us the real values of CNN and BBC; morally they are no better than the terrorists...

"So when the media and the Left predictably demand Israeli appeasement of Hamas, let's just ask them: where is your compassion for the Arab victims of a jihadist internment camp called Gaza? How much longer do you want civilians to be turned into the bloody victims of the terrorist publicity machine?

"The next time you turn on CNN, remember that you are looking at smiling faces that knowingly collude in the deaths of civilians, both Jews and Arabs. Without the leftist media there is no payoff for terrorists. Shut off the oxygen of publicity and Hamas shrivels to a powerless gang of thugs.

"The media-terrorist collusion is completely symbiotic - they are both essential for the drama to work. Separate the terrorists from the media, and you have heat without oxygen - no explosion."

Read it all:
http://www.americanthinker.com/2009/01/the_media_collude_in_terrorist.html

phil

Anthony Smythe-Barrinton
January 11th, 2009 12:04
Pray tell us where you get yours from .btw even if you are correct (which you are not) does it mean Mels scources are wrong?

stanley Jerusalem

Ann - Your analysis is brilliant and faultless. Problem is how to utilise the media to castigate and regulate 'The Media'.
Bit like Berny Madoff being in charge of the SEC.

phil

Jim you seem good at figures but put this in your calculator-if hamas had their way it would be 7,373,000 Israelis wiped off the face of the earth with help from dinnerjacket and not 13(if you are correct)-Thank goodness for the responsibility of the Israeli government rather than yours -nevertheless I mourn the death of innocents in Gaza unlike you no doubt in Israel.

gary

"One thing has been bothering me a lot, the number of people who have died in the conflicts in Congo and the Sudan exceed the whole population of Gaza. Yet I do not see any protesters going to the streets day after day demanding the end to the bloodshed. The passion shown by the protesters seems to be knee-jerk hatred towards Israel"

Put that alongside the number of Muslims slaughtered by foreign Muslims in Iraq, and the only call for expulsion is for western troops to leave, when they're the ones trying to stop the slaughter. It takes a lot of sophistry to explain that.

Peaceniks either don't care if Muslims commit mass murder of Muslims, or think it's pointless trying to stop them.

Dave

But Mel these are selective facts. Just one side of the argument. There's terrible suffering on both sides. As you say "such demonstrable truths are not being acknowledged but wickedly ignored"

Vision Aforethought

Continuing my earlier post about Prince Harry (a force for good in my eyes, like his parents and Grandma), he makes a childish joke about a colleague - and yet is berated across the planet, while Jews (and others) are attacked on the streets.

In a way, maybe this is all a good thing. If those who lack a sense of humor or ability to NOT take themselves too seriously are so upset by Prince Harry and Israel - and they crawl out of the wood work to attack us, it will be easier for those who defend us to locate, identify and lockup such people until they get a grip on their lives.

Hmmm...

Wagner

The long-term security threat to Israel is from its neighbours, right? At present there is a reasonably steady peace with Egyptian and Jordanian governments with no love for Hamas. The actions of the IDF, while offering the possibility of toppling Hamas, merely strengthen the hands of the extremists in these countries. Hamas rose to power in the face of Israeli settlements, demolitions, mass jailings, etc. If other countries in the middle east become more radicalised, which is likely as democracy gains traction, will Israel then be faced with several Irans and or Syrias surrounding it. Basically, they do absolutely nothing to help Fatah or their supposed allies in the Arab world and this short-sighted policy will surely increase Israel's vulnerability.
Often heard Israeli logic is 'its a tough neighbourhood, you have to be tough'. Their toughness has surely been proved time and time again. Their willingness to give the Palestinians a shred of hope, however, has yet to show itself.

Swaliha Bax

One of the many things you deliberately failed to mention. So called Israeli democracy: JDF soldiers attack Israelis who support the Palestinian struggle and resistance. This is what they do to their own citizens.
Also, perhaps you need to undersstand what BIAS means. Reporting facts and images does not equate to bias. And I'm sure mothers and fathers are very naturally capable of prooducing tears when their chidlren are killed.
Bias, would be an article wrtten by a pro-Israel supporter.

Ron

Hey Rippon read what you just wrote. If Israel has retracted their earlier statement than they correct themselves to tell the truth which actually prompts you to believe them after you said you can't believe them, so what gives? It's better to get the truth a day late than never at all.

Mike

More facts.

There’s a very interesting article in Newsweek of January 12, written by Aaron David Miller, author of ‘The Much Too Promised Land’, and former White House adviser to Republican and Democratic administrations alike, who discusses the new approach Obama should take in tackling the problems of the Middle East. Visit URL:http://www.newsweek.com/id/177716.

What is remarkable is when he states he can’t recall a single meeting in the White House ‘where we had a serious discussion with an Israeli Prime Minister about the damage that settlement activity-including land confiscation, bypass roads and housing demolitions-does to the peacemaking process. There is a need to impose some accountability. This can only come from the President’.

However, he ends on a note of optimism. ‘If the new President adjusts his thinking when it comes to Israel, and is prepared to be tough with the Arabs as well, the next several years could be fascinating and productive ones. I hope so, because the national interest demands it. The process of American mediation will be excruciatingly painful for Arabs, Israelis and Americans. But if done right, with toughness and fairness, it could produce the first real opportunity for a peace deal in many years’

Amen to all that……we’ve known it for years! Let’s pray that this brutal war on the population of Gaza is the nail in the coffin of the neoconservative doctrine whose disastrous policies have brought such much devastation, death and misery to this planet.

Hopefully, the days of Perle, Colbert, Fairbanks, Feith, Loewenberg, David and Meyrav Wurmser, and Torop are over. They are the neoconservatives who first laid out their manifesto in 1996 in Jerusalem, intended for the eyes of far right-wing Israeli politician Binyamin Netanyahu of the Likud Party, who had just been elected Prime Minister. They advised Israel to renounce the Oslo peace process and reject the principle of trading land for peace, instead dealing with the Palestinians with an iron fist. The signatories to this fantasy of using brute military power to reshape all of West Asia included figures who would go on to fill key positions in the Bush administration…..Perle, Feith, and David Wurmser; the latter working with ‘Scooter Libby’ in the office of Vice-President Dick Cheney. It was David Wurmser and Feith who manufactured the case for an American war on Iraq.

For the 1996 Jerusalem neo-can manifesto visit: http://www.israeleconomy.org/strat1.htm

mark

Ann's quote from the US paper expresses a long held belief of my own.

Significantly it applies not only to the situation faced by Israel and the people of Gaza ( the latter of whom are of course also victims of this malicious trickery as speakers at today's Trafalgar Square rally made clear) but far more widely - wherever the Jhadists try to pull the wool over the eyes of a Western media which seems all too wlling to comply.

Ted Crilley

Dear Amos many thanks for your post.

To FFScotland:
Regarding your reference to Amos' poignant post: I find it gut wrenching to see such a sly mean spirited caveat attached to such a reluctant and surely ostensible acknowledgement of the Truth in in Amos' post.

People like you need a good chat with you inner voices. Ask them why you feel so sadly driven to obfuscate the horrific Truth about this pernicious Jihadist manipulation of the world. PLEASE.

EDDIE

i believe that the bbc are responsible to a great part for the violent pro hamas demonstrations in the u.k. their news broadcasts are now so blatantly ati israel having completely abandoned all pretence of impartiality. they give unlimited airtime tothose who put the hamaspoint of view. terrorists must be preferable to israelis
the are laundering the prpoaganda from their “correwspondents” in gaza and re-presenting it all as news facts. their journalists are clearly practicing power without resposnibilty and they are a disgrace to journalism.

Louise

Vision Aforethought, my views exactly. Sky and BBC are leading their bulletins with the Prince Harry story, and comments have been sought by the BBC from at least two indignant Muslim organisational spokesmen, and we have heard David Cameron's denunciation.
But when demonstrators at Hyde Park chant "Hamas, Hamas, Jews to the Gas!" the Metropolitan Police comment that the crowd are "vociferous but peaceful" and neither the BBC nor any other media outlet, nor any politician as far as I can tell, condemns the loathsome racist chanting. There is not a whisper of protest, let alone an "uproar".

Augustus

The UN (Useless Nations or United Nothing, whatever you want to call it) came up with a resolution which Hamas duly rejected. it did not take into account Palestinian interests, they said. Now let me see, and they are: "There is no solution to the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavours." And, "Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it."

Daftar-e Tahkime Wahdat was the largest student organization in Iran during President Khatami's regime. After the student uprisings in 1999 many of them were arrested, tortured and imprisoned. But the movement still exists. In a statement about Gaza they take a strong position against Hamas: "There are those who would expect the regional opportunist leaders to understand the logic of peace. But these expectations are in vain. These are leaders who owe at least part of their indentity and continued existence to the continuation of war. And they will do anything to that end. They arm and encourage groups like Hamas. In the past they were in love with Saddam Hussein and declared a three-day mourning after his death. Their hands are soiled with the blood of innocents, and now they should be condemned by the world for the sad situation in Gaza. We condemn terrorist groups who seek shelter in creches and hospitals in order to attack their foes from those places. Because of this more children and unarmed civilians are killed. We condemn this inhuman organization."

Because of its criticism of Hamas, this organization has now been banned in Iran because it is forbidden in Iran and in Gaza to criticise Hamas. But, like Hezbollah, they are an inhuman movement, using human beings as shields whenever there is an armed conflict. In so doing they are forfeiting any claim to human rights for themselves.

Iqbal Dali

Some of the people who are posting this amount of people are killed here in Gaza, and this amount in Israel, we know the reason, most of the people who are killed in Gaza are Hamas, and the rest is innocent people, do you know why? because those fat terrorist "Hamas" was hiding inside innocent people homes, if they are strong and could fight why they could not go near the sea, or the mountains or wherever and say here we are available but not hiding themselves behind their children and four wives,
Israeli government protect their children and woman as much as they can, it is hard but they have to do it, not the Hamas because Hamas terrorist don't like there own citizens

La Cumparsita

Rippon, Ron. Re the UNWRA school. From what I read, the IDF is not saying that they were not fired upon first. The firing came from the vicinity of the building, rather than from inside it. The IDF are saying that they fired 3 mortar rounds, two of which hit a kassam launching team, & the 3rd unintentionally hit the building. The two dead terrorists were named at the time of the incident.Two residents of the area near the UN school said that they had seen a small group of terrorists firing mortar rounds from a street close to the school. The two spoke with The Associated Press by telephone on condition of anonymity for fear of reprisal.
Also IDF officers said they found the death toll published by Hamas grossly exaggerated, pointing out that a week ago only three IDF soldiers were killed when a tank fired two rounds - which have a much larger impact than mortar rounds - into a building which was occupied by 50 IDF soldiers.
Seems to me that many of the casualties could have been caused by the booby traps which Hamas routinely sets up around schools etc.

Augustus

@ Amos Fabian, Jan.11, 7.34am

Well said indeed! I salute you.
when will our western politicians learn/

Thomas

I see you've totally ignored the very interesting - and correct - letter in The Guardian by prominent British Jews, which calls for a ceasefire on both sides, and makes clear that both sides are in the wrong.

It is wrong to condemn those who show sympathy with Palestinians as anti-Semitic, as some have done (I must admit I am not entirely sure whether you have, because I don't read your blog regularly). Being against Israel government policy does not mean you are anti-Jewish, and indeed it is very insulting to some people.

I hope you stop and think about the effect of the war on both sides, and consider that it should be stopped now.

EDDIE

What worries me is that Hamas headquarters and its campaign is being run from underneath the main hospital in Gaza. The BBC wills scream blue murder if anything is done to remove them from their hiding place. The only really good thing to have happened being that Israel has banned Journalists from Gaza.

David Celis

And here's another fact:

In eight years, Hamas has fired 7,000 rockets at Israel, killing 20 Israelis. How many Palestinians have been killed in the past few weeks, Melanie?

The western media in favor of Palestine and against Israel? Give me a break!

Carl

Could this be the same Melanie Phillips that a few days ago claimed that a clip of a Palestinian man saving a child from Israeli gunfire was in fact using him as a human shield? We should be told. The IDF has lied time and time again and has zero credibility - it cannot be trusted to tell the time let alone cover for what they are doing to civilians in Gaza.

James Duffy

There are people on the Irish website politics.ie, supporters of the Hamas death cult, writing vile things about you. Ireland has a shameful past on the Holocaust and anti-semitism and it still exists in Ireland below the surface and usually manifests when Israel defends itself. Keep on giving us the truth.

Towncar

I see that some posters continue to be hamstrung by the pernicious fallacy that the hostilities in Gaza are some sort of limit to the problem, and that the cessation of such will lead to worldwide kumbaya. They aren't getting it, and nothing could be further from the truth. There is more muslim violence, an incalculable amount more, where that came from - and come it will. When it does, the emotionalism and appeasement-based posturing of those on the left will effectively lead to only one thing, increased numbers of western casualties.

Amos Fabian

David Cellis,

There is only one reason why far more Palestinians were killed than Israelis: Size of population.

The Gaza Strip has one of the highest population densities in the world. Give me one good reason for Hamas terrorists to use this area as a base to fire
rockets at Israel. Then they complain about their own casualties? How dare the Hamas use their own people as pawns? My heart goes out to the hostages held by their own leaders.

On the other hand, Israel's area around the Gaza Strip is not very populated. The locals suffer primarily from being shell shocked, psychological damage. Whenever a rocket is fired, an alarm is sound. People run for the nearest shelter or the safest room in the house. Even if the rocket lands far away, they don't know that. Theoretically, every rocket could be their last, "if you know what I mean". If rockets hit houses, cars, or "just" the environment, no one hears about it. But the people there feel every rocket.
I'd like to see you live this way for a week, not to mention eight years.

When Israel finally retaliates, the terrorists cowardly hide, live and operate within their own population. Is it any wonder that many are killed?

To those of you who did so, thank you for your comments to my previous posting.

YA

Yes, Hamas showed pitiful military performance.
Their heavy weapons destroyed, fighters impotent, leadership disappeared.

They can't and don't want to protect their own people.

With Israel, Hamas can neither make peace nor war.

So what is the conclusion people of Gaza will make from that?

In the next elections, they will most likely elect another terrorist gang - Al Qaida or whatever, or ask for the Iranian protectorate in Gaza, in order to try again.

There is no hope they have fantasy to try something else. At least anti-Israeli terrorism gave them many years of happy life for the expense of EU taxpayers, - being The Spearhead of Great Jihad and so on. So there is no hope for the foreseeable future.

Tony J

Davis Celis - Those 7000 rockets you referred to where targeted at civilians with the aim of killing as many as possible, including women & children. These Hamas savages, as indeed they are, target places like schools and areas with the prime objective of killing as many as possible. To them there is no limit to how many Isrealis they wish to murder. In fact they want to destroy the whole of Isreal. So Hamas failed. Does that make a difference to the savagery of the Hamas mindest?

Isreal does not target civilians INTENTIONALLY. Their actions are purley defensive, to protect their civilians, as any other civilized nation would be expected to do. The barbarity is strictly one way & all eminating from Hamas.

Hamas is 100% responsible for the deaths of innocent Palestinians.

An example of Hamas savagery can also be found in a video link at 'Jihad Watch'. The video shows how they brutally murdered there fellow Muslims during a wedding - why? Because they where playing music, contrary to Hamas's Sharia code. Indeed there's ample more atrocities perpetrated by Hamas and bags of evidence to back it up; for any one who wants to know the truth, look for it yourself, don't rely on big media like the BBC & co who hide behind an extreme left wing agenda that is anti-Isreal, and for that matter anti-democracy.

Louise

On the BBC News website, that paragon of partisanship, BBC Middle East News editor Jeremy Bowen, is keeping a diary of the Gaza conflict. (I wonder whether he intends to turn it into a book.) In today's offering, Bowen ruminates on interviews he had recently with UNRWA representative John Ging (who was trotted out round the clock to spew investive against Israel this week)and with Hamas leader Dr Mahmoud Zahar. Bowen describes Ging glowingly and parrots his strictures regarding Israel, but without any attempt at balance. He recalls how Zahar, showing him a globe, told him proudly that one day an Islamic Empire will stretch from Nigeria to Morocco, and he notes "Mahmoud Zahar made a broadcast this week from wherever he's hiding in Gaza. He said victory was coming, and that the death and hardship inflicted by Israel was a 'tax' on Palestinian resistance." What Bowen does not tell us - indeed, he appears never to have told us, whetherv on-air or on his website blog - is that on that tape Zahar declared chillingly that the killings of Israeli children and of Jews around the world are justified (thus effectively inciting violence against UK and other citizens). He has neglected to tell the viewer or reader of the true antisemitic rejectionist nihilistic nature of Hamas and of its Charter.
Perhaps we could all begin texting or e-mailing Mr Bowen, to ask him why telling the truth about Hamas seems so unpalatable to him.

J. Isaacs

Hi Swaliha at 2.49p.m. I enjoy a wee swally myself, but not enough to misspell the IDF as the "JDF". One swally over the eight by you methinks, or possibly a desire to conflate your hatred of Israel with Jew hatred.

Margaret Muller-Johansson

Amos fabian,
I hope many people in the west or the world understands it, the rockets are scary and not good, in Europe when people hear a noise like someone chewing a gum, or police car, or things like that they freak out, how about rockets and playing hide and seek with it? it is not a good feeling to live like that, but what the Israelis can do? they are taking risks with their lives unless the rockets stop, it is very difficult situation, I hope it stops very soon,
I wish peace for Israel and for all over the world

zaki

BG received the right to explore for gas and oil off Israeli shores in the 1990s. In 2000 the firm discovered a potential field off Gaza, and estimates state that it holds about 30 billion cubic meters of gas.

Ehud Barak relinquished Israeli claims to the field and allowed the Palestinian Authority to hold 10% of the rights, through an international investment fund. The PA is expected to enjoy 12.5% of revenues from the field, estimated at $4 billion. The PA gave BG the franchise to exploit the field, and a 90% share. After the field starts operating, it will have to give 30% to Lebanese infrastructure company CCC, privately owned by the Lebanese-Christian Khoury family. CCC owns the Gaza power plant.

After a long drawn out stalemate for BG, they closed their offices in Israel. The Israel Corporation, controlled by Sami Ofer and his son Idan, has been negotiating with energy giant BG (formerly British Gas) to buy its holdings in the Gaza Marine natural gas field off the Gaza coast.

In addition, Israel Corp. owners have been attempting to sound out government authorities as to the validity of the BG's franchise for the field, which it received from the Palestinian Authority.

Israel is expected to face a natural gas shortage withing five years and they are desperate to gain control of these fields!- So is Hamas to blame; Really? or is it a war for Gas AGAIN?

MathewP

This was posted on Melanie's earlier blog by myself. Thought you might be interested (I speak, by the way as a non-religious, white British observer with no affiliation to either side)

Ichallenge ANY human being to view these photographs of the effects of weaponry on other human beings (men, women and children)in Gaza and still support military action.
I know the link contains the word islam, but please do not be prejudicial. These are the photos NEVER shown in the mainstream media, but they are all too real, it breaks my heart to say, being a father, a son, a husband, and a brother myself. If I can pre-empt one rebuttal, please have the dignity not to suggest these photos are fakes.
To the moderator I plead, allow this post to be viewed by your readers.
http://portail.islamboutique.fr/gaza2008/

Louise

My mistake earlier - I meant "Nigeria to Indonesia"!!!

An American

MathewP
I'm interested...how many hundreds of millions of people do you think have been killed in wars since civilization began?

Do you believe that were any wars that were just or had a good outcome?

Do you believe that human life if more important than the freedom to think, say, believe and live the way we want to?

Do you believe there is evil and good in this world?

Its sad but true that innocent people die because of evil.

I value my life...I've been a decent, productive, hard-working, caring citizen for my country. I've raised two good, productive, hard-working, caring children for my country to continue on my legacy...

But...I would sacrifice my life in an instant if I thought it would help protect my country and my children from the likes of Hamas...and the coming Islamic terror.

Swaliha Bax

Hi J. Isaacs 7.38pm. I hate to disappoint you, but no I am not a Jew hater. If you look at your keyboard you'll find that 'I' is just above 'J' - so an honest mistake. And I've gota say, how very original of you, but you should of accused of me of being anti-semetic instead, its so much more fashionable.

Dalam

The only reason for the numbers of children killed are lower on the Israeli side is hamas's incompetence, not their morality (or their valuing of human (especially Jewish) life. They've been trying hard enough......

Roberta

Very moving, MathewP.

And do you have links to the pictures we didn't see of what the emergency services found when they reached the bottom of the underground on 7/7?

Or the pictures we weren't allowed to see of the carnage at ground zero, at Madrid, at Mumbai, The Moscow Theatre Massacre and - because you're so interested in children - the Beslan School Massacre, and so on and so global?

You're very interested in what the mainstream media media censor as being too strong for us. You're clearly of a strong disposition, though, so let's look at what Deborah Schurman-Kauflin, PhD uncovered at the Beslan School Jihad. This is a snippet, more detail appears on the hyperlink:

"This is what happened at Beslan. One by one, females were targeted. The sex killers looked for the perfect victims, and after zeroing in, they grabbed and disrobed the little girls in the middle of the gym. There were muffled cries as the girls were humiliated in front of everyone. They were stripped, raped, and sodomized by several men. Not content to simply rape, the terrorists used their guns and other objects to penetrate the screaming victims while the other hostages were forced to watch. And the terrorists laughed. They laughed as they violated the children and made them bleed. What few people know is that some of the girls died as a result of being raped with objects. The internal damage was so severe that without immediate medical attention, the girls bled to death. Those who managed to survive required extensive reconstructive surgery and painful recoveries."

www.islam-watch.org/Others/Sexual-Terror-Untold-Stories-of-Beslan-Jihad.htm

The two-line introduction to that extract on the hyperlink, written by the editor MA Khan will give you some idea of what anybody dealing with the jihad is up against - and the mainstream media don't want to know about it.

FFScotland

HarleyDavidson,

I did reply to your post earlier, but I think it got lost in a system crash. To be absolutely clear, I despise Hamas - terrorists who don't give a second thought to killing babies, or Palestinians who disgaree with them. I also hate their totally negative cult of death.

What I'm struggling with, though, is the fact that almost all of killings in recent days have been by Israelis and not Hamas terrorists.

I have heard the argument that Hamas are nevertheless responsible for killing their own civilians by making them "human shields". If Hamas are to blame, then Israel cannot be held responsible.

To me this seems a cop out. Israeli soldiers fired their weapons to kill Palestinian civilians, including many children. They could have stayed their fire, in which case those civilians and children would be alive today. Equally, as has been pointed out, Israel could escalate their barrage and kill more people, but have chosen not to do so.

So those deaths are in a real sense the decision of the IDF and the Israeli government and they have to account for them.

I am struggling to understand how killing these civilians and children helps the Israeli cause or is morally justified. I have read arguments in favour of the action from intelligent people of integrity. I understand some of it but I'm still unconvinced.

hadrian

Laughable, isn't it, to see self-styles 'anti-war' protestors lobbing missiles at police and generally indulging in similar morally superior 'peaceable' activities, and leaving behind an utter mess. Rabble rousers, the lot of them.
I think Leo Solomon's post says it all. Anti-semitism is on the rise; has anyone else noticed the readiness of folk of Irish catholic descent to make common cause with the Palestinians? Seems they think their own history as an 'occupied people' makes them only too keen to side with any other perceived oppressed people. This is shallow thinking.

An American

Roberta,
Oh...the mainstream media knows about it...they just don't want the world to know about it.
By covering up for these monsters...they are not much better.

davidka

Roberta you are so right!
the cover up of the horrific attrocities commited by these islamist monsters is absolutely shameful. we saw how the mutilation and torture only recently of the rabbi and his wife went unreported under the guise that it was too "painful" or not suitable fOR BRITISH AUDIENCES.Evem the testimony by the surviving terrorist that the main aim of the mission was the murder of the Jews in chabad house was hidden.
in reality the media are actively sanitizing the actions of these vile murderers to convince us that they are merely "militants".
Hammas are made from the same cloth and it is a disgrace that so many westerners are backing them curteousy of the western media.

Swaliha Bax

And isn't it even more laughable that in the name of security and peace Israel have killed over 800 Palestinians. And stereotyping is always based on sheer ignorance - from 50,000 protestors approximately 20 or maybe slightly more were violent, so no 'the lot of them' are not 'rabble rousers'.

MathewP

Roberta, somehow I feel a touch of insincerity in your description of the photos as moving. You miss my point entirely - I abhor violence in any form, whatever its source. I feel that those who sit far, far away from the action acting as cheerleaders for any military campaign should confront the reality of what they are supporting. The mainstream media shows children with neat, white bandages and spots of blood. The reality is unspeakably gruesome, complete with charred and disfigured corpses of small children. Just think about that for a moment - charred and disfigured corpses of small children. My soul weeps for these children just as is it did for those in Beslan, Iraq, Dumblane, Madrid, Moscow and, yes, Israel if there is ever such destruction on her streets. I abhor ideologues of all descriptions - Marxists, Islamists, Zionists - all those who view life through the wrong end of a telescope and fail to empathise with the other billions they share the planet with who have the other view. I can feel some empathy with Israel feeling threatened by Hamas rockets but for God's sake when did two wrongs make a right, and a monumental wrong such as results in the death of the individuals in the photos can never, ever be excused save for those who have lost their humanity.

Adam B.

Swahila, it wasn't 50,000 and it was more than 20. Why not just make numbers up?

Adam B.

FFScotland, how many civilians do you think british forces have killed in Iraq and Afghanistan? I bet you don't have a number. Why is that?

Adam B.

Thomas, not every critic of Israel is an anti-semite, but all anti-semites are critics of the Israel. There are quite a few of them about, and they usually give themselves away by how they speak.

Adam B.

Roberta, watch MatthewP suddenly disappear from the discussion. His outrage will be selective, you'll see.

wisteria

Good to hear from you Mathew P

The horror of death is just that. The difference that I see, as an American is that when the West (as me and my family are defined) suffers murder and mayhem in the name of war, our dead, let alone our dead children are not paraded on the net with their small lifeless bodies staring with blank eyes at the world which created them. We cry when we see such children. We are too private to do that to our dead. But it does not lessen the reality of death, nor does it lesson our grief. We suffer, we mourn, we grieve as the Palestinians do, when our children are murdered in Bali, Madrid, London, New York,Lebanon,Turkey,Russia,etc. We share that grief. We are human too.

But we do not turn our private grief into something the tabloid readers would salivate over for political or religious gain. Our deaths, even of our precious, beloved children are to be reported, accurately, but not in a fashion that adds pathos to what is already a proven horrendous, immoral act.

Let us pray to our Gods, that our children be protected, and that our children grow to be as we are, and bless us with the same abundance of goodness that we give to others.

Wagner

wisteria, so you are saying that the actual killing of the photographed children is 'a proven horrendous, immoral act'. Thank God for that. The photographing of the dead children may be alien to our culture, but what's the alternative? Play down the number of children dead and stoically take your punishment? That doesn't sound sound like human behaviour to me.

wisteria

The alternative is to acknowledge that any death is to be grieved. Especially any child's death.It does not matter who did the killing, or what their grievance was concerned with.The death of our loved ones is horrendous. Even the death of our "enemy".

wisteria

The alternative is to acknowledge that the death of anyone is to be condemned. Whether that is you, your child, me, or my child. Human behavior would mean caring about the "other" in spite of the desire for revenge. Human behavior would mean taking care of the other, creating a future for our children, rather than inciting the death of those who have done you no harm, nor has their family. None of us wish to be blamed for the acts of others, whether that is our government or those who take religion or political beliefs as an excuse to fulfill their hateful agenda.

As I said before,Let us pray to our Gods, that our children be protected, and that our children grow to be as we are, and bless us with the same abundance of goodness that we give to others.

The question is, who does not want to bless our children with the same abundance of goodness that we wish to others?

Aqua Fyre

To all those short sighted nitwits who support Hamas in this struggle, who take their side in the propaganda war...let me ask you this..

If tomorrow, rockets started raining down indiscriminately on London from across the channel, would you blithely go about you business, while merely shrugging your shoulders and saying that they have a right to bomb us...?

Or would you expect your government to do all in its power to stop such rocker attacks on the citizens of London ?

Of course, just because the Israelis are into Democracy and into being Jewish is all the excuse that you Hamas lovers need...

But remember this also, you leftist stooges...

HAMAS is NO supporter of the LEFT...

It actually HATES the LEFT even more than the right..

Why....?

Because, according to Ayatollah Khomeni, their long dead Iranian forefather, the LEFT is filled with Atheists...who should all suffer death for not believing in GOD...

Oh...but how quick the Leftist Media & Pseudo-Intelligencia forget how the Iranian Islamic Republic massacred all the Leftists in the first post Shah...government.

Roberta

I am not ‘cheerleading’ anything, Matthew P. It is the Islamists that wish to achieve global domination via the Caliphate – not me. All I am doing supporting the right of Israel – and anyone else – to defend themselves from the global jihad. I’ve never met or heard a Jew yet who’s threatened me with global Jewish domination.

The Israelis take every care they not to hurt innocent bystanders, quite unlike Hamas – who don’t care where they fire their rockets. It is very sad that these people die but then that’s the fault of Hamas who puts them there as human shields deliberately to exploit people’s emotions.

It is not about two wrongs making a right. It is about defending the right of Israeli men, women and children to live in peace. Are they supposed to do nothing just so they can be destroyed and you can tell us all how you sobbed over it? No. That’s not good enough. The Israelis are doing, with a heavy heart, what they have to do to protect their people.

I understand perfectly that the mainstream media is toning down the images of what it is showing, but it doesn’t show such images when the jihadists to the same. The only reason those images are available on the web is because these jihadists are so shameless they even have the nerve to parade their dead children with the sole purpose of using them as propaganda tools. Mind you, I suppose we shouldn’t be surprised these jihadists are exploiting their own children like this when their brothers in arms think nothing of sodomising other people’s children to death using rifle butts.

Ted Crilley

TO SWALIHA BAX

"Stereotyping based on sheer ignorance" you say.

If you know this blog you know it is far from ignorant. Due in some part to the many regular posters of your ilk who home in and scorn and scoff at Melanie and keep us informed with their self-assumed superior wisdom and knowledge.

As a regular reader I find the blog is always full of both sides of the argument and Roberta's post is an example showing censored info about the unreported hellish behaviour of Jihadists at Beslan and again we are less ignorant.

Therefore Swaliha Bax we become less ignorant because of a less one sided debate only available because of writers like Melanie who retain their independent way of thinking and continue to question indoctrination! Cliched hissy fits about stereotyping and ignorance in the current mess are generally lame in debate. You come across on here very much as someone who is clutching at straws to justify a weak sense of reasoning.

digenis

Yes, the IDF is an unimpeachable source when it comes to the Israel-Palestine conflict, especially during an IDF invasion. I'm convinced.

MathewP

Anyone who engages in the type of activity described above at the end of robert's post is clearly a criminally insane maniac, whatever their cause. How, though, does the fact that some lunatics have in another part of the world horribly murdered some children make Israel's actions any less deplorable? It's like an armed robber saying he should be left alone to cary on his work just because there's a homicidal maniac at work somewhere else. And yes, in my mind the analogy of armed robber is a perfect one in this case - if the cap fits...

phil

mike please be helpful and tell us where and when fisk wrote that stuff you cut and pasted at 3.05 yesterday,so we all canread it in full.

phil

MathewP you need to answer my previous wholly polite post on an earlier thread that I know you saw before you come here to pontificate again.you need to show respect if you want to receive it,so I hope nobody responds to you until you do that

phil

Louise I have said it elsewhere but bowens problem is definately that his coopers Y fronts are to tight and it is difficult to draw sufficient breath to tell the truth -can,t yuo tell by his voice .

phil

FFScotland-you appear to be a seeker of truth so I will remind you of what so many have said here that hamas are trying to kill as many as possible but are being thwarted by the Israeli GOVERNMENTS PLEDGE TO PROTECT ITS CITIZENS IN DIRECT CONTRAST TO HAMAS WHO DO NOT GIVE A DAMN HOW MANY OF THEIR INNOCENTS DIE IN ORDER TO MAKE PROPOGANDA -PLEASE GET REAL.

Jeremy Fox

Here are some easily verifiable facts that you don't seem able to acknowledge, Melanie.

1. In the three years after the Israeli withdrawal from Gaza (August 2005), eleven Israelis were killed by rocket fire. Between 2005 and 2007 (2 years), the IDF (Israeli military) killed 1,290 Palestinians in Gaza - many of them children.

2. Rocket attacks from Gaza into Israel began in 2002 and since then have caused around two dozen deaths. They have also damaged buildings and caused considerable fear. During roughly the same period, Israeli forces have killed around 2,700 Palestinians through bombing raids, shelling and targeted assassinations. These are figures given by the Israeli human rights organization B'Tselem.

3. The recent six-month ceasefire began in June 2008. It was broken on November 4th not by Hamas but by the IDF in a raid into Gaza that killed half a dozen people (probably Hamas officials). Readers may remember Nov 4th as the day of the US election.

4. During the ceasefire, and in violation of the agreement, Israel maintained a blockade of Gaza - severely restricting imports of food, fuel and other essential supplies, and blocking exports. The result was unemployment and misery. Collective punishment of this kind is illegal under international law.

5. In the 6 months preceding the current Israeli assault, no Israeli appears to have been killed by rocket fire from Gaza.

6. Amnesty International, senior UN representatives, and even the Red Cross are now accusing Israel of war crimes.

7. Bombing civilians - regardless of whether Hamas or the IDF are the perpetrators - is a crime under any definition of law or morality available to modern civilization.

Listeners to the Today programme on January 12 will have heard Sir Jeremy Greenstock - a long-time staunch defender of Israel - attribute the blame for the war to the Israeli government. He also listed some of the egregious lies about Hamas that - in a misguided defence of Israel's bombing of civilian areas - are eagerly seized upon by western political soothsayers and sections of the media. The interview can be heard on the Radio 4 website.

Mike

phil: who are 'us'? I wasn't aware that Fisk had been published in 'Newsweek'? Have you read the article?..........knowledge of the neocon 'manifesto, came to me in an e-mail from a friend. Have you read it?....were you even aware of it? I sometimes think phil you should give more time to serious reading rather than joining in this 'War of the Blogosphere' at every opportunity. Suggest you take some R&R in the rear trenches, and come back ready to discuss, if you wish, the substantive information cited above.

Jeremy

"A large section of the ruling class has simply repudiated reason itself".

Succinct and accurate. Those with a grain of intelligence can see what Israel is fighting and it has to win. Israel's actions of the past few days are long overdue and its commitment to destroying Hamas is welcome.

I write as neither Jew nor Muslim and as one who has supported both causes over the past 50 years. But the real enemy was never part of the old conflict. Iran is more recent interloper and arms its surrogates Hezbollah and Hamas to carry out its declared policy of Israel's destruction.

The West cannot allow it and must be quite clear and unambivalent.

KLN

Jeremy Fox, don't have the energy to respond to all your points. Perhaps others will, and do it better too. But for now:
6. Of course Amnesty Intl and the Red Cross are complaining about Israel. When don't they? Par for the course. They are PREDISPOSED to finding fault with Israel and do not tax their brains with such niceties as looking at the facts or even putting aside their bias. (And don't tell me ... I know Amnesty, from the inside....)
7. Bombing civilians, you say, is a crime. I'm sure it is, when done intentionally. So why not criticise your Arab friends, it's their stock in trade and they've been doing it for years. (The fact that they are not as good at it as they'd like to be does not make it OK. Call me unsporting, but I find it hard to give them points for trying.) But as for targeting civilians, I would say it is far FAR WORSE CRIME to deliberately use their own children as human shields, because that is way beyond is illegal (and immoral, inhuman etc - the list goes on). Israelis never do that. That too is an easily verifiable fact (unlike some of yours, which are not). Every army in the world has caused what is called 'collateral damage'. How come only Israel gets singled out? [Don't worry, I think I can work that out for myself!] And finally never forget that many of those engaged in war with Israel proudly state that they value death, while Israel values life. What do your beloved Amnesty Intl & Red Cross say about that? What do you?!

phil

MIKE -us =me and at least one other person; the objective case of we; me; The speakers/writers, or the speaker/writer and at least one other person.

AS USUAL VERY LITTLE OF WHAT YOU WRITE TO ME MAKES MUCH SENSE BUT WHAT IN FACT DOES IS THAT YOUR INFO CAME FROM SOME CUT OUT AS YOU ADMIT.

I would love a rest Mike ,but I will wait until this tragedy is over and the truth returns to inhabit the world and certainly until your friend fisk discovers it .

I note you make no comment anywhere about his incitement but we do not expect you to, and do you need a definition of WE.?

phil

Jeremy Fox,where are your verifiable facts verified .you are not sending me to the fount of truth aka-Amnesty International,are you ? or even B'Tselem.That was a lot of writing ,you obviously are a passionate guy -Why not write passionately about the peace process and all the times your favourites break it -ah you know -annihilate Israel .kill every Jew ,in fact go against all the things most of the Arab countries want to see as outdated policies -come on Jeremy you can do better than this.

phil

I would like to point appropo nada something about proportionality -try 1948 when 50 million were lined up against 3 million all with the intention of annihilation of Israel -we never heard about proportion then did we -PLEASE FEEL FREE TO QUOTE THIS ON ANY BLOG .

Mike

phil: so presumably your 05:20pm post on 'Peace & Hate' wasn't a 'cut & paste'? Not that it matters if it helps you put across the point you wish to make. Melanie does it all the time but then she reads! If you had no intention of making a serious comment on my post under reference, why respond to it? And what's the point of writing some paragraphs in large case? If you find it difficult to follow the sense of what people write...simply, and politely, ask them what they mean. Try it.

Adam B.

Jeremy Fox, how many civilians have been killed by British forces in Iraq and Afghanistan? Do you have a figure? If not, why not? Is Britain guilty of war crimes? (Let me make it clear that I do NOT think so - I simply want to see your rationale).

MathewP

Phil I do not wish to slight you. Some of your posts hint at an open-mindedness absent from some of your fellows, so I will certianly respectfully answer your question. I did look through the posts and wasn't sure what question you meant. Please ask again and I will answer later tonight or tomorrow

patricia

Hey - the Israeli Defence Force!

Yeah - I believe whatever they tell me!

Take the phosphorous bombs they promise they aren't using, the same ones they were found to be using in Lebanon - together with those illegal cluster bombs.

Wey Hey - That crazy Israeli Defence Force!

Gotta Love em!

Roberta

Why is what goes on in another part of the world important, MatthewP?

Why, because it’s all part of the global jihad. Poor Israel just happens to be in the front line. Disgusting Hamas MP Yunis Al-Astral explains all here:

"Allah has chosen you for Himself and for His religion, so that you will serve as the engine pulling this nation to the phase of succession, security, and consolidation of power, and even to conquests thorough da'wa and military conquests of the capitals of the entire world.

"Very soon, Allah willing, Rome will be conquered, just like Constantinople was, as was prophesised by our Prophet Muhammad. Today, Rome is the capital of the Catholics, or the Crusader capital, which has declared its hostility to Islam, and has planted the brothers of apes and pigs in Palestine in order to prevent the reawakening of Islam – this capital of theirs will be an advanced post for the Islamic conquests, which will spread through Europe in its entirety, and then will turn to the two Americas, and even Eastern Europe.

"I believe that our children or our grandchildren will inherit our jihad and our sacrifices, and Allah willing, the commanders of the conquest will come from among them. Today, we instil these good tidings in their souls, and by means of the mosques and The Koran books, and the history of our prophets, his companions, and the great leaders, we prepare them for the mission of saving humanity from the hellfire on the brink of which they stand." (Al-Aqsa TV on April 11, 2008)
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=x_qbKrOF64w

And now you accuse Israel of acting like an armed robber, despite the fact that the Jews were on that land hundreds of years before the Prophet “Make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites and deal rigorously with them. Hell shall be their home: an evil fate” Mohammed was even born. That reminds me, didn’t you say something about: “I abhor violence in any form, whatever its source.”

The Jews have a right to this tiny dot of land as their nation state. That is why the United Nations recognises the legitimacy of Israel.

How odd that the Muslim apostates who put together Islam Watch, where that report on Beslan is featured, are able to join the dots and you’re not, MatthewP. Perhaps you’ve spent so much time sobbing that you’re unable to think properly. You seem to flit between that and making historically illiterate and spiteful comments about Israel.

M

Many repeat that Hams rockets are the cause of the war . Here is the situation before the war: a total closing of borders in Gaza leading to the collapse of the economy, the shortage of vital supplies: electricity, food medicines and the death of more than 200 people because they were refused the permission to go abroad for cure:a slow death threatening Gaza people. The reaction of Hamas was rockets. Then Hamas and Israel made a deal accordding to which Hamas must stop its rockets and Israel must open the borders and stop killing and emprisoning palestinians in the west bank. Hamas stopped its rockets for a while but the borders were not opened. The palestinian people in Gaza had to choose: wether to die slowly in the closed strip or to fight . It is obvious they wanted to fight to get their rights because they waited a whole 2years and a half for the world to finish the closing of the borders but without a result. The world who refused or failed to open the borders of Gaza can not today blame Hamas for fighting to defend palestinians. I think if the world community did something to open the borders of Gaza this WAR would not happen. Another time we are aware that we have a world community unable to be efficient and just in dealing with serious human problems.

mary

Aqua Fyre your comparison is irrelevant Hamas is attacking Israel because it is occupying palestinian lands I would ask you: If another country occupy your own country would say to your people do not fight to get your lands and dignity back?

mary

Why what did Russia in Georgia was seen by the west as a crime and not is what do Israel in Gaza? It is this unfair policy which promote hatred in the world

Adam B.

M that's utterly untrue. The rockets predated the so-called blockade (note that Hamas isn't firing rockets at Egypt, which also shares a border with Gaza, and which has closed its border. Why do you think that is? Could it have something to do with Hamas' charter to exterminate the Jews?) Before that, Hamas unleashed dozens of suicide bombers against Israeli civilians, killing hundreds. No doubt you'll have an excuse for that as well. In fact, you play the game of excusing terror - why not find the "legitimacy" of the 7/7 bombers, or is it different when it's us in the firing line? After all, the 7/7 terrorists had a lsit of grievances as well.

Adam B.

MatthewP, I'll ask you again - are you a pacifist?

Susie

Yeah, patricia, and I believe anything you tell me!! You have shown yourself to be full of blinding hatred, so how is it possible to talk to you? If all you have to offer us on this blog are your maufactured facts and statistics, coupled with your unthought-out opinions, surely you could find something else to do more suited to your talents?

phil

Mike it was a cut and paste from a dictionary ,so that you would know it was unbiased and not from fisk!!
Also I always ask you serious questions but you never can answer them .so here is a repeat

I note you make no comment anywhere about his incitement but we do not expect you to, and do you need a definition of WE.? YoU continue to make yourself look foolish and that I do not understand .

phil

M you write with passion for the people of Palestine ,but you do not seem to understand why the borders are closed -It is the fear that hamas will use the open borders to send fighters and bombers into Israel .The answer seems simple to most fair minded people .MAKE PEACE !! AGREE THAT ISRAEL HAS A RIGHT TO EXIST ,AND WATCH THOSE BORDERS OPEN .

m you would do better to write to your leaders and tell them that, than accusing Israel of fighting to defend their citizens ,particularly when they do not want to fight at all

Mike

phil: How is it possible to 'cut & paste' an article in this weeks 'Newsweek' from a dictionary? Is the neo-con 'manifesto' in a dictionary? Fisk doesn't 'incite' comments anymore than Mel does in what she writes. Read the posts all over these pages.

You've already explained what you mean by 'us' so why are you repeating yourself?

Perhaps KateA who I understand reads all my posts will speak for you. Come to think of it, that is probably what you mean by 'us'.....you and your renta-friends.

phil

Mike sounds like you have been cut to the fisk.--bitter amigo !--you seem to have lost your marbles, the dictionary as I am sure is plain to anyone else was for "we and us ":)

I suggest you read the comments on your man,s page .I know you have but will not admit what you saw .

I would be honoured if Kate A wrote for me she is a true Ayches Chayil and if I were to have a sister it would be her,so mock her if you wish she is worth a thousand and more of those that think like you -

I see AdamB has put you in your place regarding your horrible ad hominem remarks .is this really the same as the "mike the original"who was fine until he couldn't answer the questions that came back to him

you are fisked Mike and there is no way back .

mathewP

I am a pacifist - I certainly don't fight or support other peoples wars. The only time I would use violence is to protect directly the lives of my children. and no IDF forces fighting in Gaza to prevent fireworks being fired by desparate people are not directly preventing violence against their own children. in fact they are stoking future violence against their children - violence breeds violence breeds violence

Adam B.

Mike, your comments about me on 11 Jan are disgusting - you leave my family out of it - say what you like about me, you coward - how low can you get?

Mike

AdamB; See my 09:10pm on 'Britain's Ugly...' addressed to Peter Hoskin.

phil

MATHEW P YOU SHOULD CHANGE YOUR NAME TO BILLY LIAR -HOW MANY TIMES HAVE YUO SAID YOU WILL RESPOND -CONTLESS!LOOK BELOW

Phil I do not wish to slight you. Some of your posts hint at an open-mindedness absent from some of your fellows, so I will certianly respectfully answer your question. I did look through the posts and wasn't sure what question you meant. Please ask again and I will answer later tonight or tomorrow

ALL YOU HAVE DONE IS TELL MORE TALL STORIES ,YOU SHOULD BE ASHAMED OF YOURSELF

Adam B.

matthewp, you answer is a complete contradiction. You cant be a "bit" pacifist, you either are or you're not. You seem to be saying that you don't want war unless it's really necessary. Welcome to the real world. Those fireworks you talk about are grad missiles, and you obviously have no military knowledge to call it a firework. If one landed on your house, it would kill you and your family. You will inevitably say, well they only killed 20 people, it's not that bad. The death toll on the Israeli side is as it is because tens of thousands of Israelis spend hours, often every day for the past few years, in shelters. Hamas intends to kill as many innocent civilians as possible. That is their openly declared intention, (along with the genocide of the Jews,read their charter). Only two things have stopped them: people spending long hours in shelters, and the lack of accuracy in their shooting, which has in recent months seen improvements thanks to the Mullahs of Iran providing technology, technology which incidentally has been killing British troops in Iraq through roadside bombs. You then use the "desperation" argument. You want desperation? Try sub-Saharan Africa, where people really are being killed in their millions in Congo. I don't see any Africans blowing themselves up in restaurants and cafes, do you? Did you see Jews blowing up public places in Germany after the war? Please, think these things through, and think beyond the propaganda and slogans.

stanley Jerusalem

matthewp - Being 'a bit pacifist' is like your teenage daughter coming home and telling you that she's slightly pregnant. You figure it out.
As far as Jews blowing themselves up in German cafes after the war; well sadly there were none. Very efficient, the Germans, you know.

lolo

surley at a war like this every side would say the other side is terrorist
but a little bit of justice would make us know who is the terorrist and who is defending his people and country
do you want hamas to be like abbas do you want them to sell their land and people to israil

Adam B.

lolo, have you read Hamas' charter? Do you approve of its blatant racism and bloodthirsty rhetoric?