The Brown Cameron clash at PMQs

Kate

Interesting stat on employment - where's the 1.5m figure from?

Oscar Miller

I really don't think Brown is improving at PMQs. The heat wasn't as intense as it was last week, and the Labour benches had been instructed to cheer, but none of this saved him from a dire performance. Brown even said that the NHS was suffering from a lack of investment at one point! And the £6 billion black hole line is not going to run either. It sounds like a tired old cliche which is ten years out of date. Considering how high borrowing is and how wasteful spending under Labour, it just does not have traction any more. The country is gasping for lower taxes and value for money in the public sector. Some unproven guff about 'unfunded tax cuts' won't wash with the electorate I bet you.

Malcolm Redfellow

(1) "jobs ... imported them, more like"
What is Nelson's point here?
Is it that:
he dislikes some or all immigration on principle?
there are obvious and overwhelming arguments that the UK economy has not gained from immigration?
employment is not higher than it was in 1997?
such employment was "stolen" from somewhere more deserving?
something else?
mere empty partisan rhetoric?

(2) What's with the jesuitical quibble over Cameron's role vis-a-vis Lamont?
Is it that:
an adviser to the Chancellor, even one with an Oxford First in PPE, does not have any input into economic discussion, any presence in the Treasury?
he doesn't like to be reminded of the events with which Lamont was concerned?
or reminded that, after 1993, poor Lamont was stuffed into a political oubliette and his subsequent treatment by the Conservative Party has been less than noble?

(3) What about the pronoun "he" in the second paragraph of Nelson's piece? Definitely not Spectator-level. Did not English teaching at Dollar Academy stretch to a short explanation of antecedents?

ChrisD

The 6billion black hole is a dodgy statistic when you consider Brown' own accounting figures and that ever increasing public debt. This line of attack only works when your own figures are beyond question.

Fraser Nelson

Malcolm, nice to meet you. In answer to your points 1) As the husband of an immigrant, I'm all in favour of it. But we pay 5.4m to do nothing on out-of-work benefits, and immigration at 1,500 a day. Those who come cover up Brown's failures. Something ain't right here. 2) Cameron was a bag-carrying Spad for Lamont: there's a huge difference between this and someone hired for economic expertise. Ed Balls was an economic adviser, and a very good one. Cameron wasn't. 3) They did teach English at Dollar, probably quite well, but I bunked class.

Tiberius

Michael Howard shut Blair up when picking up the challenge of who has the more cringeworthy events colouring their political history. Cameron should do the same. And I'm sure there are speeches or articles by Brown somewhere on the benefits to the UK of entering the ERM. We were all monetary unionists once.

Gatehanger

The 1.5 million migration figure is needed. Go to any London classroom and you will find: • Children with roots in this country going back more than three generations who are proud members of the expanding British underclass who’s main ambition is to bleed the state dry. • Asian members of the underclass working hard and aspiring to be middle class but think manual labour is below them • White members of the middle class aspiring to be part of the underclass • Eastern Europeans working hard with parents doing all the working class jobs everyone else thinks is beneath them or just can’t be assed to do. This is the reason why any cab you get in, builder you call or restaurant you walk into there will be an Eastern European doing the work no one else wants. We need more immigration and less benefit which will make a more competitive and reactive work force. Brown can’t take the credit for the fact that we have had to actually import a working class to this country – in fact its a sad state of affairs that we have had to because the native population are quiet happy ‘chilling’ on state benefit. Name me another country where this has ever happened?

Simon

Brown was better this week but he still got his lines wrong on several occassions not just with Dave but with Cable too. I am sure I heard him say at this rate all Lib Dem MPS will have been members of the Party. His line about Dave preparing sound bites was asking for trouble too. Two points from this. First, he is the worst performing PM at PMQs I can remember - Major wasn't great but he was better than this. Second, we are told Brown is charming and witty in private. If so why cant he prepare a half decent joke never mind deliver it?

Malcolm Redfellow

The time of day to you, too, sir.

Are you sure you are not confusing two figures: 5.4% unemployment and 1.65M unemployed? Those claiming unemployment benefit are just 835,800 (see http://www.statistics.gov.uk/CCI/nugget.asp?ID=12). Even adding sickness and disability claimants doesn't get me near your figure, which amounts to a quarter of the working-age population.

Second: yes, there is a structural failure in the UK employment market. It is because, as a country, we have never, repeat never got our skills training right. GB Shaw (and I never mitched off English class: now Irish, that's a different matter) was banging on about it back in 1903, when he invented the "superman", Enry Straker of Sherbrooke Road Board School, and the Polytechnic:
"Very nice sort of place, Oxford, I should think, for people that like that sort of place. They teach you to be a gentleman there. In the Polytechnic they teach you to be an engineer or such like. "
For that chronic failure, look to the prejudices we build into our education system, on which topic I can bang on ad nauseam.

And, yes, I am aware of the distinction you make between an 'umble bag-carrier and an Ed Balls. However, it's a bit late to be making that difference; I can cite examples where Cameron's coat-tails have been anxious to confuse the distinction. As I recall, even Cameron himself was keen to point out he had been sent out of the room when the EMU decision was made: thus subtly implying he had been party to other high-policy issues.

Fraser Nelson

Malcolm, a) I didnt bunk off maths class. 5.4m people makes 14.7% of the working-age population on out-of-work benefits (of all kinds) See DWP data - http://83.244.183.180/100pc/wapop/ccla/ccstatgp/a_cnpop_r_ccla_c_ccstatgp_feb07.html b) I agree that skills are dire, but the incentive structure is a problem. We'll never sort out skills until we sort out welfare. c) As for what the 25-yr-old Cameron got up to, I think we're essentially agreed it wasn't much.

Fraser Nelson

Kate - you asked where the figure came from. It's a Commons written answer from July - 442W. http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200607/cmhansrd/cm070718/text/70718w0022.htm

J H Holloway

Malcolm and Fraser. The thing to remember about the ERM fiasco was there was cross-party support for going in. Why the Tories haven't dug out Brown's supportive quotes from that the time is beyond me. And even as shadow chancellor, Brown had far more influence than Dave c1991.

Nicholas Millman

Brown allows himself to get angry and exhibits defensive aggressive behaviour, jabbing his finger at his opponent, stabbing at his papers and misarticulating. His repetitive defence line seems to be to cast back to the last Conservative government in the 1990's. This is desperate from a man who has been the Chancellor for 10 years. His constant attack on opposition voting history is also desperate. So much for his whining for consensus and less confrontation in politics. Actually, the demand for non-confrontational "debate" is the refuge of many a modern corporate bully and a favoured ploy of the strident Left. Robust disagreement and dissent is demonised as being confrontational, not team playing etc., and thus is it suppressed. Cameron needs to go for the jugular, to remind the Stalinist Stealth Bully that vigorous debate is the cornerstone of our parliamentary heritage and to emphasise that the Conservatives are not interested in raking over their past, but instead in demonstrating the policies and government needed in the 21st Century. Brown's style is already looking tired and passé. He is the only heavyweight on the government front bench but his new exposure sits uncomfortably on him. He is clearly happier as a man of the shadows. His cabinet are lightweights. His advisors immature and inexperienced almost to the point of being puerile. Cameron needs to work hard at exposing these terminal weaknesses.

HJ

I'd just like to point out to Malcolm Redfellow that there are no people claiming unemployment benefit, as there is no such benefit.

What there is is Jobseeker's Allowance which is a rather different thing as it is only paid automatically for 6 months and only if the person concerned has been in continuous employment for the previous two years. After 6 months it is means-tested, so if you have savings or a working spouse, you get nothng and so miraculously fall out of the figures.
If you find temporary work and this ends, guess what - you probably won't then qualify for JSA again.

In any case, JSA is so low that many people don't even bother to claim. After six months, all many get is NI stamps paid - which is hardly worth the inconvenience of going to the Jobcentre to be patronised. May as well register as self (un)employed.

Still - makes the unemployment figures look good.

Allan Cuthbertson

I thought Gordon was rather good. Ok he stumbled a few times over his words but comes across as far more sincere than PR supremo Dave.

John Whitworth

Sincere? The only thing the man is sincere about is his own ambition and the feeling that he has been done down by fast-talking Englishmen (Blair). It's a common Scottish type.

Frank Leader

Answering a question from Vince Cable Gordon Brown, Paid tribute to Sir Menzies Campbell. He then congratulated Vince Cable on his temporary Leadership of the Lib. Dems. He then said “If things continue at the present rate of change in this parliament”. “Every single Liberal Member will have the chance to be MEMBER of the Liberal Party”. Does he know what he is talking about?