What stature does the House have now?

Tiberius

Perhaps it will be up to Boris to sort this out since no Labour acolyte will have the will or the wit. He did get shot of Sir Ian Blair, after all. Maybe a few more in the Met. should walk too.

Colin

So, no minister was informed prior to Green's arrest? It seems that the Met along with the senior civil servant in the home office felt no need to inform any member of the government of the imminent arrest of a shadow minister; if this is the case, those involved have to be suspended immediately.

TGF UKIP

Monstrous and outrageous and the official Tory response quoted on R4 PM of "over the top and heavy handed" is completely inadequate.

The response of Michael Howard on the World at One was far more in keeping with the gravity of this, particularly with his question of whether there is to be one law for when Labour are in opposition and a quite different one for the Tories. MH also makes the point that had this been police practice pre 97 Brown would have spent most of his time under arrest. A point very vividly made by Guido and Finkelstein who catalogues on his Times blog the many instances when Brown was very happy to make use of civil service Labour supporters leaks.

Indeed, one of the remarkable things over the past eleven years have been how few leaks there have been from civil servants confirming the view that the vast majority of the sods are Labour supporters and voters if not actual party members.

As for the police it has become more and more evident that Blair/Browns policy of massively bribing them with lavish salaries, no requirement for reform and massively increased powers has worked in spades. We now have a governing party's very own Gestapo.

Who comes out of this worst, Martin and the Sergeant-at- Arms or the police is difficult and irrelevant to say.

The central point is that the Tories need to get mad, really mad. They need to imagine just how seismic the reaction would have been of Blair/Brown/Campbell& Mandelson if anything like this had happened pre 97 and then emulate it.

The loudest missing voices so far are those of non-enslaved Labour backbenchers and other notionally "liberal" voices such as Liberty and DD's mate.

Ben

The Met Police Special Branch (who investigate alleged crimes of this nature) merged with the Anti Terrorism branch of the Met. That's why it keeps being reported that counter terrorism police were used. Political journalists should be able to research these basics.

Sandy

Interesting isn't it, that Boris was informed about this but not the PM! I suggest that there is a a directive somewhere specifically requiring that the PM not be informed by the police, so that he can deny involvement. I further suggest that he actually knew about the developing scenario ahead of anyone else, and had given the go ahead, and therefore did not need to be informed when it crystallized.

TrevorsDen

Do you really believe that Brown and Smith were not informed.

A wink was tipped somewhere.

No one should be so gullible as to believe they did not know what was going to happen.

never Never NEVER underestimate the lying toe rags that pas for our government these days

alex

Perhaps we should consider why Jacqui Smith is so keen to push "operational independence" at all costs now, when only a month or so ago, the oversight of the Home Secretary and Parliament was considered a crucial safeguard to allow the introduction of a bill on 42 day detention?

Spin Bowler - In the Brown... Political Blog

So, David Cameron told the arrest before it happened. So did the Mayor of London. So did the Speaker of the House of Commons. So did Sir David Normington, the Permanent Secretary of the Home Office. But the Prime Minister, Home Secretary nor any other minister had a clue the arrest of an MP was going to take place and were thus kept in the dark by the police.

This account is seriously stretching credibility! Surely the Home Secretary knew? But if we are to take the government at its word (and you'll excuse the scepticism developed after 11 years of untruths) that ministers honestly did not know, then why the hell were they not told! Why did the police inform other politicians but no government ministers? Was it a conscious decision not to implicate the government as it would put ministers in a difficult position? By not telling them the police could go ahead and the government gets its leak investigation including Green's homes and offices searched.

Finally, why did Sir David not tell Jacqui Smith? Did Sir David, like the police, consciously choose not to implicate the Home Secretary so that the investigation could run its course? This can be the only explanation for the Home Secretary not knowing! Plausible deniability!

In the Brown... Political Blog
http://inthebrown.blogspot.com/2008/11/arrest-of-damian-green.html

tory granny

Why do you say that "It does seem that neither Gordon Brown nor any minister was informed, which is in itself incredible." All they are saying is that they were not informed about the actual ARREST, which is probably true, but is not at all the same as not being informed of the investigation and all that it might lead to. That is impossible to believe.

TGF UKIP

Tiberius, on PM Programme police were quoted as saying that there was no ministerial pre-knowledge but the Mayor of London was aware of their operation.

I would guess you must be desperately hoping that once again the BBC have got it wrong.

Meanwhile, the Speccie, with its impeccable Boris sources, should be able to tell us what the Mayoral truth of the matter is.

Random Lurker

So if Green gets arrested for using leaked Home Office information, why aren't Peston et al being arrested for using leaked Treasury information? Or have they levelled up their divination skill so much they can just "see" what's being planned for, eg, the PBR.

Searcher

Typical of Brown that he is more concerned to claim that he didn't know than he is about the constitutional implications

Verity

Sandy and Trevorsden - Of course the Brown toe rag knew!

Marian C

This is an absolute disgrace; Martin, the Sergeant-at-Arms, the Head of the Police Special Branch, along with these so called all civil servants should be suspended / sacked with immediately effect.

The Tory's should ruthlessly root out the perpetrators of this shameful affair and make public who knew what and when and who gave the O.K.

Hoolio

They're trying to pin the blame on civil servants (Sir David Normington) and the police (the counter-terrorism cops just happened to best placed to deal with this for some reason).

I agree with TGF UKIP, we need to get mad, really mad, with Labour ministers. This is outrageous and they can not be allowed to get away with it.

TGF UKIP

Sandy has probably hit the nail on the head with his surmise that Labour Ministers would have known of the developing scenario and, therefore, did not need to give assent or be informed. Nods and winks will have done nicely.

One positive for the Tories in all this, though, is that IF, still a big "if", they do win the next GE then they will have carte blanche to hunt down all the Labour supporting leaking civil sevants unmercifully - and be entitled to require full police and front bench Labour co-operation.

This after all, could be a much more painful precedent for Labour than the Tories.

Hard to imagine, isn't it after the last eleven years an a-political civil service.

Dream on though, I guess. From the grades where it begins to matter, they're nowt but a bunch of Guardian reader anyway.

Herbert Thornton

I very much incline to think that there has been a Contempt of Parliament.

Athesius the Facilitator

Do not underestimate the lengths that this lot will go to. Revenge for the 42 days cash for peerages and one or two other bits and pieces was and is a priority. Mandelson has resurrected the urgency.
Smear innuendo and spite are all part of the general order of things again.
Remember Dr Kelly.
Heckling in the chamber. Osborne.
Bias Speaker.
BBC and Sky in Labours pockets.
Etc etc.

Dave B

The sounds like Mr Martin trying to pass the buck. He's the Speaker. It was his decision.

StephenB

The government probably did not know about it because (as TGF UKIP says above in his quote from M Howard) Gordon Brown is as guilty of this type of action as anyone. And so have all governments been guilty, and also involved are most political journalists and editors in all the media. G Brown would know it would backfire on himself. Pot calling the kettle.

It is more likely simply the case that if you promote senior policeman on the basis of being politically correct, you will get people near the top who think in a strange way doing bizarre things. These types score A++ on the 'diversity training' courses, but they lack the judgement that normal people have and they lack a basic sense of proportion or knowledge of what is really right or wrong. They are trying to catch up with the lawyers in that respect.

You read about them all the time arresting the victim and protecting the criminals.
To some people this kind of operation would be an ego trip (look at my powers) and a chance for some Orwellian snooping through D Green's private papers looking for things....

Chuck Unsworth

@ Ben.

So the Counter-terrorist branch aren't really Counter-terrorist officers, they're just Special Branch officers in disguise then?

Utter piffle.

If that's their title then that's their title. Full stop.

Rob Atkins

Of course a Minister knew. The police would not take this action, including notifying the Mayor, withoutr also notifying at least a Minister in the Home Office. There should be outrage everywhere at this appalling breach of judgement.
Alex - I think your point is exactly right !

strapworld

If this was not so bloody serious, it could be an ideal script for Yes, Prime Minister.

But I think the majority view is that Cameron has, yet again, blown it big time. He has to bring back the big beasts.

Andy Leeds

Speaker Martin was never up to the job, and has always been very partisan. Whether the Sergeant at Arms authorised this or not (and he damn well ought not to have done so if he did) the Speaker is their to defend the rights and the privileges of the House, its Members and of Parliament. He has lamentably failed to do so. He ought to resign his office.

The Dandiprat

Concensus seems to be that those right at the top were party to this.

If so, then how on Earth did they think that this would not flare up in their faces? They must have given thought to the likely reaction from the public and the media.

Did they have their very own Brand/Ross moment?

autograph

The Speaker needs to go, soon. He has wrecked a once noble office. Isn't it the turn of a Tory speaker anyway? I know these things shouldn't matter, but unfortunatley in these case it seems to!

JohnAnt

I really don't think that even Brown could be stupid enough to help this along. It has such a capacity to rebound on him.
It's more likely to be just the senior police shooting from the hip again.
Arrest the lot, disband the Met, and let's start again.

JohnAnt

But why did Cameron simply describe it as 'heavy-handed'? That's the understatement of the year. Has Cameron ever been forced to get angry about anything, I wonder, or did he have it all so easy as a kid that he never had to? Is that the problem: that he never learnt, so can't do it now?

Oscar

Cameron was being reported all over the media yesterday as describing the action as "Stalinesque" - that is hardly pulling his punches. He is operating in a climate where pro Labour broadcasting toadies are doing everything they can to silence and/or discredit the Conservative voice. Criticising Cameron is just doing the labourite media's job for them.

Mark

Interesting take, strapworld. The government, speaker and police are all in deep trouble, and you attack Cameron! If you heard Geoff Hoon on Any Questions you would know that this is bad news for a government whose reaction shows that they have been in power for far too long.

Mike Hobday

Contempt of Parliament? It;'s contemt of the public to think that MPs are above the law.

Pushkin

Where is Shami in all of this? She seems to be very quiet

Oscar

So Mike Hobday - do you think Gordon Brown should be arrested given his record on leaking information to the media?

Mike Hobday

I don't think anyone should be arrested for leaking information to the media.

However, I do think the police should have the right to make arrests if they have sufficient evidence of procuring illegal breaches of information.

hadrian

I speak as a fellow Scot but Martin is an uncouth North Britain version of Prescott.
He should never have been Speaker in any case had our New Labour louts not flouted Tradition that stipulated the Speaker's position revert to the 'other side' after the blessed Betty Boothroyd, bring her back, God bless her!
The sheer enormity of what has happened still takes one aback. Think of it- Anti-terrorist squads sent in to an elected representative's home to raid it and incarcerate said M.P.- could he have been held for the maximum the current terror laws allow? Brown- you're not bloody on!

Andy

Point of information, Andy Leeds; the Serjeant at Arms is a woman. SHE appears to have been quite happy about it. Another appointee above ability, by the looks of things. Considering all Gordon's leaks in Opposition, perhaps action could be taken retrospectively ...