The police are in a pickle of their own making

Dave B

Whatever the politicians say, I don't believe the police would have done this without getting an OK from the Home Secretary. And I can't see a non-entity like the current Home Secretary giving that OK without checking with Mr Brown.

This was the Labour government attempting to suppress dissent.

J H Holloway

I once had to have a word with a police intelligence officer about a text exchange between him and my current wife.

I got a long meandering explanation. I then asked about a second text, which I read to him. The content of this blew his explanation of the first text to bits.

What shocked me most was that a long-serving intelligence officer was so ready to lie. Never mind his behaviour, it was the sheer idiocy of his attempts to cover up.

Conclusion: they're not very bright.

Chuck Unsworth

Never ever take the police at their word. That is exactly why we are where we are.

WeepforFreedom

This is not a joke. We are being led by the nose into a police-state tyrany. Cameron should be raising the roof, if he won't then David Davis must speak for England.

The Definitive Polka Dot

Where is Lord Rhumba of Rio in all this?

mac

"Those of us who took the police at their word . . . will now have to reconsider our position."

What, you mean you believed anything the untalented, self-serving, scheming, over-promoted plodder Blair said? Well you know different now, James.

Paul Pinfield

"Those of us who took the police at their word when they talked about how overstretched they were when it came to terrorist investigations and how they desperately needed more powers and more help will now have to reconsider our position."

That is one way to put it...

C Powell

Hoon is getting slaughtered by the audience on R4's Any Questions and the other panellists. Good.

Ivan Dunnow

How can you be so stupid as to keep promoting this lie that it was in any shape a 'counter-terror' operation? The anti-terrorisam laws weren't invoked; the officers employed are the rebadged Special Branch, now operating out of CTC. What the **** is difficult to understand about that? I was able to explain it in 2 ****ing clauses. Seriously, was is your excuse for this unmitigated cr*p? Do you *really* believe we are in a 'police state'? Have you so little understanding of the world that you can't actually imagine what a REAL police state is like? This is pathetic stuff.

bta

Nine? I understood that there were nine at one address - and a total of 20 in all.

Tony Proctor

The Police are stupid. Nothing more needs to be said.I have nothing but the upmost contempt for these truly , horrifyingly, thick bunch of arseholes.

Charlie T

One of the burning questions of the day is how the police have come to be so loathed so quickly and so widely. Like most people my default position used to be pro police. Not anymore. They are now just paramilitary statist bullies. The massive collapse in support for the police by large sections of the British public and how to win back that support is something journalists should study and report on.

As for the misruling Westminster faction they are an utter disgrace on so many levels. Smearing, character assassination and brazen lying have become both the ends and the means for this faction since 1997.

I `m worried sick at what Britain has become and what it will become. Despite is faults Britain because of its freedoms used to be place I was happy to live in. The Brownshirting of Britain has left me depressed and shaken. Old Labours economic policies were always bad but at least many of them genuinely supported freedom. But not the current faction. Conservatives have to speak out strongly on freedom.They have to conserve what's left our ancient rights and liberties. And repair the damage caused by the Labour faction. Many of the Labour factions laws have to be repealed

I personally think a written constitution guaranteeing freedom of speech and assembly is an absolute must. If any good can come of the Green incident it will hopefully mean decent Labour supporters can see what the faction are doing to all of our rights whatever party affiliation we have.

Andy Leeds

Never believed them in the first place. The police are lazy and arrogant even on a good day. They deserve no sympathy nor anything else for their actions. They they behaved like a load of tinpot Gestapo. How dare they search the parliamentary office of an MP. They have violated the privileges of Parliament.

I hope when Parliament is opened next week the officers in charge of this disgrace are called before the Commons Committee of Privileges. And I hope a few of them end up in Pentonville Prison (or better still a very damp cell near the river in the Tower) for a few months for their contempt of Parliament.

bill

The police have been on a downward track for decades. They need putting back in their box.

Bob Frost

'the officers employed are the rebadged Special Branch'

Which reminds me of the old joke:-

Why do SB officers always go around in threes?

One can read, one can write, and the third keeps an eye on the two intellectuals.

Burt

Just seen newsnight. Al Beebera doing its best to dilute the bad news.

Boudicca

It beggars belief to think that the PM and Jackie Smith didn't know about this in advance. It has all the hall-marks of a Brown temper-tantrum and insisting that the Home Office mole be found 'by any means.'

As for Speaker Martin: his position is now completely untenable - he should resign or be forced out.

C Powell

DC's reaction has been utterly pathetic. If he doesn't now realise the threat which this Government poses to the survival of British democracy, then - frankly - he deserves to lose the next GE.

David Davis has been magnificent, as haveTony Benn, Chris Huhne and Nick Clegg, who correctly described this as a "Mayday" for British democracy. Nothing heard - so far - from Shami & Liberty or the usual suspects so quick to attack the Tories. Poor Britain.

occasional ranter

James - are you 100% sure these were counter terrorism officers ? The story's powerful enough without overegging it.

occasional ranter

.... this is bugging me now. This description of the officers as "counter terrorism" officers is similar to the wilful misdescription of the freezing of Icelanddic assets as being under "anti-terrorism legislation".

In the current case, it is true that Special Branch and Counter Terrorism officers work in a merged unit, but that does not make the officers involved in Damian Green's arrest "counter terrorism officers".

In the case of Iceland, the powers used to freeze Icelandic assets were in the same Act of Parliament as anti-terrorism powers, but that does not mean anti-terrorism powers were used against Icelandic banks.

Some of us, while naturally right-leaning, still look to you for unbiased information and explanation, not careless muddling of the facts to support a conclusion already reached.

Richard

Ivan Dunnow

Have you so little understanding of the world that you can't actually imagine haw a REAL police state came about?

Do you want to wait until we have a police state before speaking out? Interesting to see how far that gets you, noting what New Labour already do to their critics.

This was a political arrest. Whether the police were playing party politics, or Labour were using the police it is a disgrace on both sides, and must be condemned.

Does anyone believe Jacqui Smith and Gordon Brown did not know when David Cameron and Boris Johnson knew?

luke

Am I alone in thinking that Cameron is going to owe Brown and Smith one almighty apology if it turns out their denials were true.

JohnAnt

Evening all. Our wonderful Metroplod has issued the following explanation of the amalgamation of the Special Branch and Counterterrorist forces, on http://www.met.police.uk/so/counter_terrorism.htm:
"it was agreed to create a new bespoke, multi-faceted, single counter-terrorism command - not restricted in design or look by existing structures, with a better capability and capacity to meet ongoing and future threats. As a result the new Counter Terrorism Command was created. This has taken over the roles and responsibilities of the Anti-Terrorist Branch and Special Branch and was launched on October 2 2006... as always the overriding priority of the new command is to keep the public safe and do all it can to ensure that London remains a hostile environment for terrorists.

"The Counter Terrorism Command provides a full operational capability with teams of officers immediately available to respond to any type of incident or investigation.

"It is also known as "SO15", an internal police service designation reflecting the fact that it is one of a number of Specialist Operations branches within the Met.
Counter Terrorism Command is responsible for:
* To bring to justice those engaged in terrorist, domestic extremist and related offences
* To provide a proactive and reactive response to terrorist, domestic extremist and related offences, including the prevention and disruption of terrorist activity
* Support the National Co-ordinator of Terrorist Investigations outside London
* To gather and exploit intelligence on terrorism and extremism in London
* To assess, analyse and develop intelligence to drive operational activity
* To engage in partnership with London’s communities in order to understand their concerns and to provide reassurance and support where needed
* To provide specialist security advice and services internally and externally
* To provide an explosive ordnance disposal and CBRN capability in London
* To assist the British Security Service and Secret Intelligence Service in fulfilling their statutory roles
* To be the police single point of contact for international partners in counter-terrorism matters
* Assisting in the protection of British interests overseas and the investigation of attacks against those interests."

It was indeed this Counter Terrorism Command that arrested Damian Green.

Can anyone pick out of the above list the particular remit that was served by this arrest?
Nor me.

'allo, 'allo, 'allo

Charlit T expresses what I feel.

As for the Police they have previous. De Menzies.

I am a Councillor in an Outer London suburb. The police were the subject of some mild criticism from a fellow councillor for failing to provide some information at a public meeting.

About a week later the police called us in and gave us a ticking off for critising them in public.

As others have said they are rapidly declining into a para-military arm of the state and
the NuLab or OldLab state at that.

The Laughing Cavalier

Leaking not an option? Why change the habit of the last decade?

Roger Davies

Josef Brown's dabs are all over this one Guv. When it comes to the next GE he will have his Ballot Rigging programme fully in place.
How can anyone trust a PM that takes obvious delight in the state of our economy? Campbell was right the man is physiologically flawed and we better watch out.

Oscar

The police don't need to issue leaks - Pravda (aka BBC) are now treating the incident rather like the Lady Vanishes - 'arrest - what arrest?' Not a murmer about it on this morning's Today programme. How different the coverage would have been if this had taken place under a Conservative administration one can only imagine.

griff

Is it my imagination or are all the special police forces now dressed in black.

Now where have I seen uniforms of that colour before?

Ken

Its the terms of the debate and the framework in which it occurs that need to change. That requires roll back of hundreds of repressive Marxist measures enacted since 1997. The police are instruments in state power, power which has been twisted and corrupted by illiberal student union socialists in government. Let us hope when an election is called (Emergency and Contingency laws permitting!!) Labour is destroyed and new political alignments occur. The Blair/Brown/Mandelson doctrine comprises meddling social experimentation of a capital destructive and most pernicious kind.

David Smith

James,

It was not 8 or 9, overall more like 22 in terms of boots on the ground, not counting the "superior" officers planning and managing this fiasco.

So much for overstretch!

Anon

Was at a Gentleman's club in Thornton Heath many years ago. A portakabin behind a cinema.

Sat at the bar chatting to the owner I asked him how he stayed open (without any form of licence).

He looked at me incredulously and after a short moment said: "We pay the police". Like I was some idiot.

It's how they atart, how they carry on and on.

Show me a straight copper and I'll show you a trainee fresh out of Hendon.

Thortung

Jackboots and Gorgon have stated that they "had no prior knowledge" of the arrest. Typical Nulab no-denial denial. Taken literally, no-one can have "prior knowledge" of an actual event unless thay can travel through time.

This statement is factually correct even if they knew damned well that this was going to happen.

James J

The Macpherson Report, giving a license for the police to promote a political agenda not shared by the majority of the public, the promotion of students of Sociobabble and the emphases on recruitment to meet “diversity” targets resulted in the end of policing by consent in the UK.

Fergus Pickering

But Luke,how would we ever know their denials were true? Nobody believes a word they say and nobody believes Plod either, not when he is Sir Ian Blair or his understrappers. Yes, they may well be telling the truth THIS time. I urge you to read Matilda by Hilaire Belloc. She was burned to death as a consequence of repeatedly telling lies. Gordo and Jacqui take note.

pauldhill

Cross party vote of no confidence in the absurd "Speaker" Martin should be every true Parliamentarians first duty when they return from their longest ever Christmas holiday

Martin traduced over three hundred years of liberty and parliamentary privilege in his craven acceptance of executive power.

Quite simply he should have told the Police to go and f***k themselves and told the Serjeant to bar the doors against them.

The ghost of speaker Lenthall looks on in disbelief

Fergus Pickering

I think, Roger Davies, you mean psychologically flawed. I suppose physiologically flawed people would be blind or deaf or dwarfs or something like that.

Travis Bickle

Make no mistake this is exactly the sort of police force that has been deliberately put in place over past 11 years. Every terrorist attrocity has been used to justify the end game where any dissenting voice can be dealt with as an enemy of the state.

And to all the muppets who have encouraged them through ID cards and 42 days without charge because "if you've done nothing wrong blah blah" just reflect upon where this was always intended to lead.......

TomTom

The Macpherson Report, giving a license for the police to promote a political agenda

It was a red-herring so Macpherson did not need to confront Freemasonry

mitch

I think we need a civil war trash the current system and start again.
Gordon is the product of the system and I think that says it all.

Nicholas

"Domestic extremist" strikes me as a rather wooly description open to broad interpretation under the ways and means act.

The fact that the officers involved were more likely part of the old Special Branch is cold comfort.

The British police are badly in need of major reform, part of which should be a very severe clipping of their political wings. The thuggishness, black para-military uniforms and firearms need to go too. If an armed response is required it should be provided by the Army, who should take over all counter-terrorism operations from the police and retain no civil powers. The police should all go back on our streets in their tit-hats and start patrolling them properly, including the Chief Inspectors and Superintendants who need to get their boots on and start patrolling. Talking to local people on the beats is better than attending meetings with the minority activists of the liberal-left to blather on about diversity and inclusion. The ridiculous PCSOs should be disbanded too, and while they are disbanding those idiots they may as well get rid of the pernicious ACPO. Let's have a complete end to partisan police lobbying in politics and legislation and policing dedicated to the cause of Political Correctness from the perspective of cultural Marxism.

The police can only be truly effective as a societal entity if they are an integral part of the community they serve and serve visibly within all the public transactions of the community. They should not be a Fire Brigade to come blaring and shrieking only when a crime has been committed deemed worthy of their attention. You can't watch and ward from inside an office or racing about self-importantly in a Christmas Tree on wheels.

Verity

Endorse every word of what Travis Bickle and Nicholas said. Brilliant.

James J

A Televised Parliamentary Inquiry is needed so we can get to the truth of who ordered this and under what authority.

Fergus Pickering

Do you know, Nicholas, I think you've hit it. That's the sort of police force I quite fancy. And then we could have teachers who teach things and nurses who wash things, and clerks who can bloody spell. Heavens, there'd be no end to it.

mac

Good post Nicholas.

With little or no debate, the police have built on their miners strike experience to acquire a third force, paramilitary role, while the local constabulary function is being steadily transferred to those poorly trained street-walkers, the in PCSOs. And it's happening by design. Ominous.

Verity

James J - A televised Parliamentary enquiry is an excellent idea. But not the BBC. Get Fox News over to do it, but British commentators. (Not Matt Frei.)

Verity

Well said, James J 10:25 a.m.!

Rob

"Am I alone in thinking that Cameron is going to owe Brown and Smith one almighty apology if it turns out their denials were true."

Probably. What's he supposed to apologize for?!

Andy Leeds

I think we basically know. What we don't know is did the Speaker authorise this incursion into the Palace or was it the Sergeant at Arms who decided to permit this and then told the Speaker. We don't know if the Home Secretary knew Green's office was to be searched - notice the careful wording of what the stupid woman said - and we don't know what Brown knew.

We know the Police acted on Friday because Parliament had been prorogued and there were no 'Session Orders'. One doubts they would have acted had Parliament been sitting. What is so troubling is the role of the Speaker. He has the most explaining to do but one doubts he will explain his role. He should resign.

Pete, Scotland

"The police are in a pickle of their own making"

I disagree, the police are in a pickle due to the incompetence of this Labour Government and it's stupid politically correct idiodacy!

euSSR GO HOME

Andy Leeds - nobody in this government has the honour to resign. The people should demand their replacement - very loudly and very clearly.

AND WHERE IS CAMERON?

Archie

Ivan Dunmow: a NuLiebor troll in panic mode, I fancy!

jean baker

Smoke and mirrors - blame the police for carrying out the orders they were given. The Home Office reportedly authorized the unprecedented raid which 'spinner' Brown denies being aware of. Odd that he 'knew' about OTT comments made by Brand/Ross and took the issue to parliament!!!

Edward

In an all out assertive statment, I just have to say I don't believe jacki smith!She is without a dought, the most ignorant bigot ever to achieve the position of Home Secretary. In my opinion she might as well have broken into Damian Green's house herself.

Mike Godfrey

One point that seems to have been overlooked is that even in dictatorships like Zimbabwe the police are subservient to their ruling bodies and only act on their instructions. They don't go around arresting opposition MP's on a whim without a nod and a wink from above and I can't believe it is any different in Britain. The only difference here is probably an major error in judgment by the police on just how far to go to make things awkward for those criticizing the government. No one really believes for a second that Jacqui Smith or Gordon Brown were completely oblivious to what was going down even if they didn't know all the fine details. The home office and the cabinet office must have known what was happening and unlike previous police investigations into Labour sleaze, in this instance they gave a completely free range to the police whilst protecting their minsters with plausable deniability. Brown having enjoyed a mini bounce from his initial response to the financial crisis knows full well its all down hill from now. Awkward and inconvenient truths that his ministers have been hiding for years are out in the open and all of his rhetoric is now treated with contempt.

There are three major problems for Brown now all of which have surfaced within a month or so. Firstly the measures to help the country combat recession are exposed as a costly waste of time and will leave tax payers with a horrendous tax bill for years to come. The pre budget report unraveled in record time to demonstrate just how badly the country is and the costs that the tax payers are saddled with. The second Brown problem that's currently in progress is the arrest of Damien Green and all the constitutional issues that abuse of power has highlighted. The third one is the reports that British born Muslims terrorists may have been involved in the Mubai massacres. If true, this isn't the first time that Britain has been an exporter of global terrorism. During the past 5 years whilst Labour turned the other way to visiting hard line clerics in the interests of community sensitivities these hate mongers were recruiting young Muslim men as suicide bombers. The shoe bomber was British, the Madrid bombers had associates in Britain and Brummie accents were heard in Afghanistan from the enemies camps. However distasteful, Labours involvement in Iraq and their multiculturalism has been succor to our home grown terrorists.

Finally, the politically motivated arrest of a Tory MP whether Brown was involved or not, is still a political arrest on a par with Zimbabwe. Similarly a raft of legislation that has been passed by Labour is essentially political in nature as failure to comply will also result in a politically motivated arrest. Every day middle england is criminally targeted for objecting to minor or petty laws but muggers guilty of GBH will now be told to apologise and no criminal procedings will follow. This is politising law and order in any ones book when laws are applied unequally. Without whistle blowers making this sort of public interest information available we will become another Zimbabwe sooner than later. Matters of the economy that affect all of us are of public interest and we need that information to make valued financial judgments, and knowing if British muslims committed terrorist acts in India are equally important if we wish to help the security services in Britain. Gordon Brown and successive Labour ministers seem incapable of understanding not just the harm they're doing to Britain but also the damage and respect we once had for parliament.

Jeremy

Speaker Lenthall will indeed be spinning in his grave. But I would have loved to see the Plod try it on Betty Boothroyd (blessedly still with us) - I suspect those splendid legs would have been employed in booting them down the steps of Portcullis House!

Pete - Maldon

The public have lost faith in the police because of the political control of them. They need to be left to set their own goals and bonuses on preventing crime, not detecting it. Hopefully then they can disentangle themselves from the politically correct mess they have got into.
As for Gordon Brown, like most people i am praying for as early an election as possible to allow the Tories to undo all of the mess.
We will be praying for a Labour government in again in 2020 though!

Condescender

Can anybody trace for me the supposed evidence that the Mumbai gunmen had any British connection at all?? This seems to have become a myth that, even if it isn't true, "might" still be worth using in any context whatsoever - not excluding the England Test tour (non-tour). The Reichstag fire comes to mind (except hold on, wasn't that one true, though?).