The system overreach must come to an end

David Boothroyd

When will you stupid journalists get it into your thick heads that days when Parliament is not sitting are not "holidays" for MPs?

Napoleon

What is this system you talk about? Government? State? Police? All these options?

Andy Leeds

Here, here. Well said.

James J

You are right.
The police, in particular, have become too politicised in the opinion of the public to allow this type of behaviour.
We or even our elected legislators can no longer express an opinion in a number of areas without the threat of some Commission or other prosecuting us. We have allowed judges to decide which laws are acceptable and have had our parliamentary sovereignty, and therefore any claim to democracy, limited by treaties which in practical terms cannot be rescinded by an incoming government. We have become a Post Democratic society.

Craig

Michael Martin resign on a matter of principle? I admire your optimism!

AndyR

The phrase you may be looking for is "plausible deniability". The cabinet secretary will have known, because it's his job to know, but he will not have told the PM in order to protect him. You're absolutely right that the reactions of the PM and home secretary have been shameful. There are many times when it is sensible to defer to "due process". This is absolutely not one of them.

biggestaspidistra

An excellent article but as the creeping feeling through our spine tells us, Brown most certainly did know beforehand.

Norman Briffa

Maybe DD's action do not seem to be so rash now.

Enoch was Right

Mr Nelson
Why do you believe that Gordon Brown is being honest?
The man is a serial liar. Where is your list of 'Brownies'?
People who lie as consistently as Brown does have no credibility no matter what they say - about anything!

hadrian

'Not run by bad people with malign intent..' you say, Fraser. Well, isn't that precisely the point folk like David Davis have been active in alerting us to this insidious erosion of the protections of our liberties? Broon and his unutterably idiot cohorts inadvertantly( to give them benefit of the doubt!) cobblr together a whole series of very bad measures that present the perfect opportunity for thos who ARE of malign intent to do their worst.
Government by bureaucracy, we fully agree, is self-aggrandising..particularly when acting in high self-righteousness or to clamp down on embarrassing exposures.
This really is the giddy limit.I'm off to potest to my MP in the strongest possible terms!

mac

Is Ms Harman sniffing a rerun of the party leadership shadow boxing stakes? (www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/politics/conservative/3536668/Harriet-Harman-calls-for-review-into-Damian-Green-arrest.html)

Evidence of understanding Kingsley's "Mrs Do-As-You-Would-Be-Done-By'?

Ms Smith meanwhile needs to watch archive TV footage of T Blair more attentively, before dissembling to camera. There's plenty to choose from.

oldtimer

Note the careful choice of words -"no prior knowledge of the ARREST".

What about the INVESTIGATION that preceded it? No doubt the police were aware that the Permanent Secretary at the Home Office had ordered the enquiry. It does not take much imagination to suppose or know that they were also aware of the interest of the Cabinet Secretary, the Home Secretary and the Prime minister in these leaks. Even I read about them in the newspaper!

As for the bugging, the Home Secretary agreed she would have to sign off any bugging operation but wouldn`t admit to it. No doubt the offending civil servant`s phone was bugged - that way they will have listened in to his calls to Mr Green.

Governments do these things. The State comes first, not the individual and certainly not the official Opposition.

In my working life, during a significant financial negotiation, I was convinced that my phones were bugged both at home, at my office and at the offices of a financial organisation I was working with. It was obvious because "telephone engineers" suddenly appeared out of nowhere to fiddle with the telephone cabling systems outside my house or in the offices I used. It was so obvious it was laughable; I prefaced every telephone call with the advice to my listener that the phone was bugged.

Kenneth Clarke likened it to the Nixon administration. All we need now is our very own Woodward and Bernstein and, of course, a Deep Throat.

Anthony

Trot along to Guido and watch this superb video of the Dear Leader admitting that he did exactly what Damien Green did.

Nicholas

I agree an excellent analysis by Fraser but I see that the Labour blog monitors got in first as always.

Much if not all of New Labour's legislative overkill has brought unintended consequences. Surely now is the time for parliamentary safeguards to be ramped up, perhaps requiring unanimous voting, or at least 80/20 voting, on any new legislation, rather than passing laws with HoC majorities in single or double figures. That would ensure that legislation must be good enough to transcend party politics to the benefit of the people and that bad law is impossible to force through on party political grounds by a minority of extremist ideologists.

The Labour government has shown itself to be too chummy with senior police officers and associations like ACPO than is good for a parliamentary democracy. Their reactive statements of not interfering in police operational matters are risible given their 11 years track record. They have come out of this as an even more sinister government not just set against the people, where presumptions of public guilt drive almost the whole of their legislative policies, but now set against parliamentary democracy. That itself has been under attack by Labour for longer than the Damien Green abuse, with the rise of sofa government, the politicisation of the civil service, the unhealthy culture of spin (aided and abetted by the BBC) and the prolificacy of pre-leaks which suit government purpose and serve government propaganda.

Issues over the role of the police in society are long standing and have never been fully resolved. The debate today is one that would be entirely familiar to 19th Century parliamentarians. The many safeguards to liberty and against the abuse of power originating from those early days and before have been steadily dismantled and/or undermined by a Home Office acting in concert with or under the influence of the police. Far from being independent the police have over recent decades positioned themselves central to the state rather than the communities they are supposed to serve. Thus Chief Constables increasingly look to the Home Office, ACPO and other centrist agencies for direction rather than the needs of the county community that they should owe their primary responsibility and accountability to. Central to this shift have been the Metropolitan Police and the political partisanship of the Commissioner.

The rise of the police response to terror, real or suspected, has taken precedence over their more fundamental role, such that the division has become blurred. Powers intended to counter terrorism are now exercised as a convenience in completely inappropriate circumstances and it has become a catch-all to facilitate the para-military transformation of what once were "citizens in uniform". Even the definition of terrorism is becoming blurred with the introduction of "hate" laws intended to control the expression of "inappropriate" thoughts.

The evolution of the police procedures, like so much implementation of government regulation, has proceeded on a worst case scenario with the ultimate aim to suit the purposes of the enforcers rather than the community they are supposed to protect. Extreme deference to security and safety, which is illusional anyway, means that enforcement agencies can routinely abuse and impose on personal freedoms, privacies and properties following the near histrionic "at any price" line so well articulated by Geoff Hoon on QT.

If as a society we really believe the Labour Lie that our most important freedom is "not to be murdered by terrorists" then we are doomed to surrender everything and live entirely by the state and for the state.

Robin Guenier

Here's the video to which Anthony just referred:
http://www.order-order.com/2008/11/brown-confesses-to-procuring-misconduct.html

cuffleyburgers

The Mumbai tragedy certainly provided the perfect cover to carry out a raid that had most likely been on the cards for some time - hence the anti terror police.

It seems obvious to me that this was Brown trying to put a stop to a flood of increasingly embarassing leaks, especially now he is so over-exposed by having committed so much money on his great gamble. Clearly, arresting the treasury mole would have been too obvious, but a home office mole with terror police, sorry, anti-terror police in attendance might be more plausible.

Looks like Mandelson's learned a lot during his sojourn on the continent, especially how to deal with whistle blowers.

However, Mandelson will have his own agenda and doubtless, once Bombay is behind us some embarassing revelation will emerge and Brown will find himself fingered (fingered by Mandelson eh? - probably wouldn't be the first time either, phnarr phnarr).

On this reading, the writing really is on the wall for this madman, and thank christ for that.

Carol-Ann

Fraser your piece would assume that 'Speaker Martin' has any principles or integrity, I'm afraid you'd be wrong. He's just another incompetent on the take.

GV

You're right in that ignorance of a law is not a defence. It's just that, in the past eleven years, there has been more than one law a day passed for each day of Parliamentary sitting. I'd be surprised if any member of the government can remember the laws they voted for; they also didn't give due regard to the consequences.

As for Martin; he was informed by Pays yet the raid went ahead. He is where the buck stops with regard to the assault on Parliament. In the Home Office, the hierarchy is Brown, Smith, Normington. Any PS is loyal to his Minister; he does his Minister's bidding for fear of blotting his copybook and therefore the buck stops with Brown.

Slim Jim

Well said, Nicholas. I reckon we have been given plenty of warning that we are proceeding in a disorderly fashion down the slippery slope. Remember the appalling treatment of Walter Wolfgang? Yet we continued sleepwalking. I suspect that this incident is indeed a watershed, and it's simply not good enough for professional liars, sorry, politicians to continue saying, ''It wisnae me, it was bad boys, and they ran away.'' Also, we are still reeling from the outcome of the Baby P case, and the reaction of the establishment and their stupid cheerleaders (eh, David?). Time to start marching, methinks....

Aless Heathcliff

I look forward to PMQs on Wednesday, the government should certainly be challenged as to:

1.Whether the government believed the 4 documents in question should have been kept secret

2. Whether the government believed that Mr Green's actions posed any threat to national security

HTwiss

If the Speaker is so furious, why does he not summon the Metropolitan Police Commissioner to the Bar of the House of Commons to explain. If he refuses to attend then he can send the Sergeant at Arms to arrest him! I think the Speaker has this power. Then he would clearly demonstrate whose side he is on!

Andy Leeds

Well it looks like the only thing to be done is when MPs return on Wednesday the 'Session Orders' should carry two amendments -:
1/ That no Member of Parliament may be subject to arrest without a warrant signed by Her Majesty in Council.
2/ 'Session Orders' shall only ease to be valid between Parliamentary sessions when Her Majesty physically sets foot within the precincts of the Palace of Westminster. Meaning the gap between Session Orders shall be a matter of a few hours, rather than almost a week as we have now.

TGF UKIP

I've just read your NOW piece as well, Fraser, and absolutely superb it was too. You have a magnificent pulpit there and use it brilliantly too, and we should all thank you and congratulate you for being the voice of the right to the many.

On this issue, you are clearly mad, the Coffee House is mad but why isn't Dave mad, really mad. The rhetoric coming from the Tories is absolutely woeful.

The only real expressions of outrage have been from journos and from Douglas Carswell on the Week in Westminster yesterday. Perhaps, your mate, Dave is really looking forward to when he too can use the system to bully us all into his ultra pc, green agenda when he gets his turn.

Meanwhile, I'm thinking of starting a Coffee House campaign for Fraser Nelson as Leader of the Tory Party with Nicholas as his intellectual powerhouse. At least it would then be a right of centre Tory Party.

roger parkin

we must, must, must get rid of this rotton goverment at the next election.the home secretary either knew of this outrageous arrest or if not has lost complete control of her office.she must go now.

C Powell

I don't think PMQs should be used to ask questions about what the police are investigating because this will simply allow Brown to say that he won't comment on an ongoing police investigation. Rather the focus should be on (1) the independence of Parliament - about which Brown and Smith have been notably silent; and (2) MPs obligations to their constituents - which have been severely harmed in this case.

Brown could also be asked when he first knew about the investigation. Remember the killer question in Watergate: What did he know and when did he know it?

As someone who - in my professional life - carries out investigations into both civil and criminal matters, I don't see any operational reason for the police's decision to disable Damian Green's email account. Given that they are investigating past events, there is no reason to stop him receiving or sending emails in the future. What they have done is akin to the suspension of an employee when his email account is suspended but that is only done if allowing the employee access to his email would pose a threat to the organisation. None of this can possibly apply here UNLESS the purpose of this particular action was to prevent Damian from doing his job as an MP. That is a wholly improper use of police power and a very sinister development.

It seems to me that there must be a good case - whether through Parliamentary procedures or the normal law - to get his email account reinstated. I hope this is followed up because his constituents have been severely prejudiced by this action.

I also hope that the Tories have some good lawyers looking at every aspect of this - so that the police are tied up in legal action, facing all sorts of discovery requests, which will undoubtedly reveal more.

Tim Carpenter LPUK

Fraser, "system overreach" is not a threat to "democracy", which is, after all, just a 5 yearly box ticking exercise. It is, in truth, a threat to the Rule of Law, which Democracy is the least bad way of defending it.

Rule of Law and Authoritarians do not mix. Alas, we have 3 main parties who are becoming ever increasingly that way inclined.

Francis

Gordon Brown's view of the world is now so warped that he is prepared to allow the erosion of individual liberties in order to achieve cheap political advantage. David Cameron needs to remind the electorate that elected politicians are there not just to govern but also to monitor and control the unelected powers in this country such as the police and security services.

Over the past eleven years Labour has always sought to avoid being held responsible for problems by shifting blame to quangos and other firewalls. This, in extremis, has become a form of political abdication which is now reaching its inevitable conclusion. Ultimately the electorate will not tolerate
a government which is incapable of facing up to its responsibilities and is increasingly putting the rights of the individual at risk.

This is a crucial opportunity for David Cameron to make clear that a Conservative government will put the defence of those principles at the core of its being - which means returning to ministerial and political accountability which earns the respect of the electorate rather than the growing contempt which it feels for the current government.

TGF UKIP

PPS, just watched a recording of Marr this morning including K. Clarke on the Green Affair.

While I usually have no time for The Mouth as New Labour's and the Today Programme's favourite rent-a-quote, he did put Dave and the rest of them to shame with the way he wiped the floor with Brown, Smith, the civil servants and Martin.

Meanwhile, Dave in the NOW describes Browns's reaction as "not good enough." WOW! Gordon must be shitting himself.

Andy Leeds

The way to attack on this is through Parliamentary Privilege. The Speaker is the one at the moment with the most questions to answer.

Parliament returns on Wednesday. Lets see what happens, but I hope you have all written to your MP and protested in the strongest possible terms.

True Bred Pomponian

'Not because they are run by bad people with malign intent' As someone who has recently left the Civil Service I can assure you that senior officials are almost without exception the most malignant people you could come across.

mac

Write to my MP, Andy?

My MP is the very acme of Labour placepersons.

Absolutely no local knowledge, parachuted into a constituency 250 miles from her home. A graduate of North East London Poly, member of the Fawcett Society and selected from an all-women list. Daughter of a Labour MP. Oh, and did I mention she worked for years as a 'researcher' for a Labour minister. Aspires to be Chief Whip or Home Secretary, probably.

So, write to my MP to complain about our appalling government? No, I don't think I shall.

CS

***Not because they are run by bad people with malign intent***

Anyone in the Civil Service will tell you that the problem with the mandarins running the bureaucracy today isn't that they're bad people with malign intent but that they're rank incompetents whose intent is to get through the day without doing anything to annoy a minister or jeopardise their knighthood and pension.

It's not all happened post 1997 but the overt politicisation of the civil service information officers and filling senior posts from outside the service has reduced the senior civil service to a bunch of ministerial lapdogs.

You might ask why "top businessmen" shouldn't be brought in to run the wicked Civil Service. But, if you'd met any of them, your question would soon change to: how the hell have any of their businesses avoided bankruptcy?

I could name more than a few "top businessmen" who've disappeared with their knighthoods mere weeks before the departments they've been brought in to run with their expertise of the private sector have descended into chaos.

I'm not saying that the old days of the mandarins with jobs for life and guaranteed honours was especially palatable. But the law of averages at least ensured that some competent men and women rose to the top. The system today ensures that anyone of any ability or competence gets nowhere while the yes men with fixed smiles and "management skills" progress upwards.

And before anyone accuses me of sour grapes, you'll be relieved to hear that I lack any ability whatsoever so I've no grudge to bear.

Anyway, my point is that once ministers are surrounded by and departments are run by men who've got there on their ability to say yes, tell them to arrest an MP and they won't blink.

dt

Amazing how that uninformed nutter David Boothroyd manages to comment on lots of different blogs at roughly the same time....here, Iain Dales, Guido. He is obviously a Labour rebuttal unit operative - one of Dolly Draper's Own Foot In Mouth Battalion!

HJ

" I believe Gordon Brown is being honest...."

Well, there's a first time for everything, I suppose.

Just because he didn't know in advance about the arrest of Damian Green (and I also think he probably didn't) , doesn't imply honesty. All it tells us is that, on this occasion, the truth was convenient. It doesn't tell us anything about whether he is honest or not. Does anyone have confidence that had he known, he would tell us? Of course not.

RODEST

Fraser; the system in overreach is that of government whilst the system of democracy is debilitated...

It is an unfortunate fact of long serving governments, they become blinkered to reality of what is good for the public and conentrate on their selfserving beliefs.

The Damian Green case is typical of the abuse of power and bad laws under this current inept government. In every area of national and local government, the police and other enforcement agencies, the truth is distorted to satisfy overreached systems. Microchips in wheelie bins etc, where do these ideas come from?

Another casualty of the overreached system is the Freedom of Information Act which is widely abused and misinterpreted by national and local government. Laws meant to protect are causing more harm and misery to the law abiding people of this country while the guilty walk free and probably with a wadge of compensation.

Michael Gill

Hi Fraser.

How can we fight back? I would love to force accountability from politicians and councillors but have no idea where to start other than the ballot box.

When did councils become responsible for the policing of illegal acts such as anti social behaviour, whatever this is, along with parking infringements and a host of other offences?

What can the average man do to curb overzealous officials whilst at the same time ensure that basic core services such as road repairs are carried out to a high standard.

At the same time how did the Police off load responsibility for crimes considered to be beneath them or unworthy of their time to local councils.

Suggestions would be greatly received.

Christian Gowers

Really Green should have refused Bail, then he'd have to challenge the police to lock him in prison, now that would be embarrassing for the government!

hadrian

Well, if the intelligent section of the electorate have any sense or residual interest in their liberties, this must surely be the last straw and foment so much dismay that Comrade Broon will be oot at the toot as we say in Scotland. Only- don't send him back up here, PLEASE!
Keep up the high profile of this event, Fraser. Your country( U.K.) needs you! I've always said you should be Nelson the Younger...however I suspect you're far too relaxed, too wiity and too kind to be a politician with ambition!

Rolf Norfolk

I think Damian Green's arrest marked the end of the de facto separation of powers under the British Constitution. It's a straw in the wind, and potentially a mighty rushing wind.