Denouncing the useful idiots

Tiberius

That word "now" on the poster betrays the apologists' position.

M Alexander

I have just read Guido and some of the comments and now this...You sick bastards.

Verity

These people are using the freedoms entrusted to them by a liberal democracy ... So not Britain, then.

adrian drummond

"their own people" voted for them (Hamas).

Benjamin Gray

Adrian, that argument would only hold water had Hamas not committed a violent coup and usurped powers of the lawful institutions of the Palestinian Authority to achieve its current status in Gaza.

Faceless Bureaucrat

Adrian Drummond

"their own people" voted for them (Hamas)."

And like us in the UK, that Government has betrayed them...

FB

cuffleyburgers

@ M Alexander

Sorry old chap but i don't quite get your grip? Are you against the mindless (and indeed deliberate) slaughter of innocents by avowedly genocidal fascists? or are you against the region's only democracy defending itself (sometimes clumsily it must be said) against such attacks, and where possible treating palestinian casualties in its own hospitals?

So which is it?

Who's the sick bastard?

adrian drummond

Hey cuffleyburgers, re '(and indeed deliberate) slaughter of innocents' take a gander at this:-

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/israel/4209242/Israeli-strike-on-civilian-house-may-be-war-crime-says-UN-gaza.html

Lou Dacht

Should we be surprised when, having allowed so many alien people into our country, they bring with them ideas which are alien to our own?

Hawkeye

They are clearly illiterate. That banner lacks an apostrophe and should read "Who's the terrorist now?"

Peasants!

Verity

No, Lou Dacht. And we would predicted it. But an overmighty Labourite government with an agenda of its own signalled a sanctioned invasion of our ancient country.

It ought to be so easy to kick these bastards out, and Dave isn't up to the mark. He's not only weak, but I think he sincerely doesn't understand the point of national sovereignty. He intends to give Britain away, after the socialists have encouraged alien "settlements" in our country, to the EU.

Britain's in a deliberately-created mess and needs the clean cut of the surgeon's knife. Not more talking and jolly boating weather.

Verity

Lou Dacht It was deliberate. It was a deliberate assault. To soften us up for the next wave of outrage, as in a school couldn't hold a Nativity Play because "It interferes with Eid". As in normal (as in, indigenous) British school children are being fed halal meat in their school lunches and their parents have never been asked for permission for this vile method of slaughter to be turned into school lunches for their little British children.

The onslaught against the indigenous British is ongoing and I am sorry to note that so many are cowed by it.

Augustus

It's time Europe re-evaluated whether this enormous influx of Muslims after a break of 400 years really do contribute to such enrichment in the name of multiculturism. But Jews always have, why even now, on the sreets of Rotterdam, Brussels or London, and seeing Israeli flags being burnt with such gusto, there's a Jew somewhere making a pretty penny supplying new ones.

JONNY

'He intends to give Britain away, after the socialists have encouraged alien "settlements" in our country, to the EU.'
Utter rubbish.

JONNY

Saw T Blair on this very subject last night.
Hate to say it - and you're not going to like it one bit.
But he's saying just what most of you are saying.
So you're all politically correct and bang on Blair Message. Goo-oo-ood
Only difference being he does it with a more egregious smirk.

George Laird

Dear All

In the past, I have been denounced as a “useful idiot” so feel I should trot in here and put Shiraz Maher straight.

“As increasing numbers of commentators, politicians, activists and journalists speculate on the way forward, simple and indisputable facts are often surrendered to the worst kinds of moral relativism. The last few weeks alone have been testament to this. Just consider how Israel has been likened to Nazism, and the Gazans to refugees living in the Warsaw ghetto”.

Well the comparison has merit; the Palestinians live in a walled ghetto.

The jews previously lived in a walled ghetto in Warsaw.

Palestinians are facing a humanitarian disaster.

The jews who lived in the Warsaw ghetto faced the same.

As to the charge of Nazism is that too far fetched? It is true that Israelis don’t operate gas chambers but they do kill and murdered Palestinians carte blanche, it is termed collateral damage in the West.

“This should not however invert what is indisputable – that Israel is responding to a barrage of Hamas rockets which threaten its citizens who live in the south”.

And Hamas is responding to the murdering of its citizens.

So has Maher advanced anything?

“Indeed, around 10 per cent of the Israeli population now lives within striking distance of katyusha rockets”.

And 100% of Palestinians live within striking distance of Israeli Military forces.

“All this follows the unilateral withdrawal of Israeli settlements in Gaza in 2005, after which Hamas swept to power and turned "the Strip" into its own paramilitary playground, using it as a springboard to launch a campaign of sustained and indiscriminate attacks into southern Israel”.

Oh dear, Maher really has gone off on one, Hamas is an elected government.

“I am a Muslim and spent a large part of my childhood in Saudi Arabia – something which, in the eyes of many Muslims, means I should automatically defend the "Palestinian struggle".

This “I am a Muslim” is this suppose to mean anything in particular?

“This is absurd and such support invariably means overlooking the vicious crimes being perpetrated by Hamas – against the Jews and, increasingly, its own population too”.

Has Maher witnessed crimes personally, I thought the news was staged managed.

“Since the start of the conflict Hamas has carried out extra-judicial killings of – or, put bluntly, murdered – more than 30 of its citizens who it suspects of "colluding" with Israel”.

Did Maher investigate every case? If these people were colluding with Israelis then is it any surprise that in a war there is summary execution? Perhaps if Israelis hadn’t destroyed the place then the infrastructure would have been in place to hold trials.

“And how has it responded to the death of Palestinian children? In a televised broadcast the Hamas leader, Mahmoud Zahar, declared that Israel has "legitimised the murder of their own children by killing the children of Palestine”.

Quite wrong on the part of Zahar but if Maher looks at History then he would see that Jewish Professor Lindemann was responsible talking Churchill into going the Terror raids of German Cities by the allies.

“They have legitimised the killing of their people all over the world by killing our people."

And that is quite wrong too by Zahar.

“British Islamists have proved themselves only too willing to oblige. Reports this week suggest that some participants on Islamist chat forums have been drawing up "hit lists" of prominent British Jews”.

The killing of innocent people is never right and the fact these people are misguided shows how deep the split in broken Britain actually is.

“One contributor writing on the discussion board of the Muslim Public Affairs Committee (MPAC) said, "lets hope that an unfortunate event happens and they end up being killed someway [sic]". The group later removed those comments, but such views are indicative of the hatred that is out there”.

Is the concept of hate new to Maher?

“Hamas will now pay a heavy price for its bloodlust and innocent civilians will tragically die as a result”.

They would be killed anyway.

“Of course, it is in their name that those who have staged loud and noisy demonstrations in recent weeks claim to be acting. But what message are they sending exactly?”

Well different messages for different people, the same as the Israelis are doing.

“Demonstrators outside the Israeli embassy in London have fought with police and tried to storm the building on at least three separate occasions. Meanwhile banners have been waved in Trafalgar Square which boast, "We are Hamas".

That is called civil unrest and PR media management.

“Such vociferous support from the streets of London will have come as great relief to Hamas leaders at a time when even Arab governments such as Syria, Egypt and Saudi Arabia have blamed them for this latest outbreak of violence”.

Are they not publicly onboard with the fake, “war on terror” of the USA?

“These self-righteous "friends of Palestine" obsess about Israel and the Jews, but turn a Nelsonian blind eye to everything Hamas does”.

Isn’t everyone who stands up to be counted self righteous? After all Maher, a reporter stood up to be self righteous on the Telegraph.

“They undermine those who want to see an enduring peace in the region and, worse still, they bolster and galvanise Hamas by creating the moral imperatives for its terrorism”.

Do the Israelis want peace? I thought they wanted a walled ghetto to supply them with cheap labour!

“Muslim leaders in Britain have so far – but cannot any longer – allow this to continue unabated”.

Muslim leaders have there been elections recently that I missed voting in?

“Those who claim to support and empathise with the Palestinians must recognise that it is the terrorists of Hamas who have so disastrously betrayed their own people”.

Hamas are an elected government does that mean we shouldn’t have the Northern Ireland Assembly because it is full of former IRA?

“At its core, this is the straightforward decision that British Muslims will have to make: between Hamas, a terrorist group committed to destroying a sovereign state and its people – and Israel, the region's only democracy which is responding to that threat.
It really is that simple.

Firstly why should British Muslims make a choice? What about those British non Muslims who support a free Palestinian state? Their voice not matter? As to Israel being a democracy, well I am sure others would disagree with that statement.

As to what next, well the Israelis and Palestinians have to stop fighting. There needs to be a ceasefire and people have to get together and hold talks. Peace can be achieved but new negotiators are needed.

We don’t need the likes of Blair cluttering the place up, coming in at the last minute for a photo opportunity to remind us he exists.

Where exactly has the Middle East Peace Envoy, Tony Blair been?

The Israelis have to invest in Gaza and the Palestinians have to be flexible about people wanting to live there. If a French guy wanted to live in Gaza then people wouldn’t think twice about it. If Jewish people want to live in Gaza then it should be among the Palestinians not armed Jewish settlements.

The Israelis should wake up to the facts, no one is winning.

Yours sincerely

George Laird
The Campaign for Human Rights at Glasgow University

Lou Dacht

Hey Jonny. Be specific would you and then we might be able to respond - eg, what are most of us saying?

BTW My smirk beats Tony's any day.

Augustus

George Laird in Glasgow, a lot of your comments are idiotic, naive, or confusing. You may like to ponder exactly why Jewish people now fear going out onto the streets of London, or any other European city wearing their scullcaps. Just supposing that in these cities the fathers of Muslim girls had had to instruct their daughters not to go out wearing their headresses for fear of being assaulted because they were Muslims. How do you suppose the socialist press in Europe would have reacted to that? They would have had a field day about human rights. And so would the Arab European League. But it's alright for the demonstrators of their marches to enter Jewish neighbourhoods, set cars and even buses on fire, and attack any Jews they happen to see. Who exactly are the racists? Where are the true laws protecting human rights? Certainly not in your arguments.

George Laird

Dear Augustus

Hit a soft spot with my comments?

You say my comments are idiotic, your right to free specch.

Now, what about what I have written specifically don't you like?

Having commented on the piece by Maher, you now start drivelling on about something else.

Can you stick to the issue being discussed?

Let's go line by line, on what you don't like.

Finally, you talk about the "socialist press", there is no such thing, talk about me being naive!!!

Yours sincerely

George Laird
The Campaign for Human Rights at Glasgow University

Augustus

Dear George in Glasgow, you say I 'drivel on about something else', but you yourself cover quite a range of topics in your appraisal of Maher's piece in The Telegraph. Naturally, as the conflict and it's implications covers many political, social and moral issues.

You cynically state, "Do the Israeli's want peace?" and then make a cheap comment about
'cheap labour'. Anyone who knows the history of Israel's foundation in 1948 knows that it has been the Palestinian Arabs who never wanted peace with Israel, not the other way round. And now the world has to watch a mixture of violent Muslims with their communist or post-communist hangers-on demonstrating in cities around the world, not demonstrating peacefully, but bearing hateful placards, burning the Israeli flag, and God knows what else, including shouts of 'send the Jews to the ovens or gas chambers. You say only to such behaviour that it is merely civil unrest and PR media management. No, it is a breakdown of law and order to a degree that would not be tolerated if a Neo-Nazi party staged it. The writer is correct, British Muslims, and not only them, will have to make a decision between Muslim terrorists or Israel's right to live in peace.

I'm sorry that people like you who purport to speak for human rights have been brainwashed into the views that you hold. Israel's actions are not barbaric, they are self-defensive. No, the targetting of civilians as an end in itself is not a civilized action, but a war is always fought between enemies, and the agressor is usually the first to declare it.

There are people who accuse Israel of genocide. What is genocide? It is an intentional policy to exterminate a population or large group of people. Muslims commit genocide in Darfur. The Nazis committed genocide as a matter of policy. the Hutus committed it in Rwanda. But not the Israeli government, it has never condoned genocide. In the few cases that excessive force was used, it wasn't genocide. The Shabra and Shatilla massacres were not committed by the Israeli army, and led to parliamentary enquiries. Not that that mattered much, the terrorist propaganda machine is too well-oiled. But there are 'experts' who consider anything the Israeli army does as genocide. Perhaps they would only be happy if the Israelis went no further than throwing cotton balls? Perhaps you are one of them?

George Laird

Dear Augustus

Your problem is that you have selective memory.

To refresh you.

Where was the "self-defensive" aspect when an Israeli sniper shot a pregant Palestinian woman on the steps of a hospital?

He was let off with that.

Where is the self defence when other pregant Palestinian women were denied medical aid at check points.

Help me out there please; I am struggling.

As to my comment on cheap labour is that not credible?

Israel has destroyed the infrastructure in the Gaza Ghetto so work opportunities are limited.

As to Israel being re: 1948, the land was stolen off the Palestinians in the first place.

I believe in the rule of law and just recently, the Chief Rabbi echoed my call for peace talks.

Do you remember that jewish terrorists murdered British servicemen in Palestine?

Because I do.

Was that self defence?

Yours sincerely

George Laird
The Campaign for Human Rights at Glasgow University

Augustus

Dear George in Glasgow

As to your last point, you may well be right. But Palestine was tricky in a number of ways. I do not believe that Israel was 'stolen from the Palestinians'. As I understand it, the Jews only got about 20% of the original 1922 League of Nations settlement area. What they did get they turned into a flourishing modern democratic country, but their Arab neighbours were hostile from day one, and the idea of a 'Palestinian' nationality and state was not born until Arafat's PLO era. It did not exist in 1948.

Any Westerner who isn't an obvious supporter of Islamic fundamentalism must surely concede that the Israelis should be supported, after their WW2 ordeal, and not be abandoned to shameless, often barbaric, Arab fanatics. The Israelis are builders, they can turn a piece of desert into something productive and lasting. The Arabs did nothing with that land for centuries, and as soon as they saw what the Jews could achieve all they could think of was to invoke intifadas and charters for its destruction. The difference it seems to me is that in the 1940s and 1950s young people went to Israel to work in a Kibbutz to help the Israelis. Today young people just want to roam the streets shouting horrible abuse at Israel. I believe the reason is anti-Israel propaganda by Muslims which has made the world a more dangerous place, not the Jews in Israel who have done so. But I say again, Israel has been forced to fight for its existence, and that simply means, yet again, a war with their enemies. If that war does not appear as humanitarian or 'clean' as campaigning groups would wish, tough luck!