Has Brown set a BJ4BW timebomb for the Tories?

Hereford

This is not about British workers being of lesser skill than their european counterparts. It is about the fact that the British worker, through the continuous intervention of the trades unions has priced themselves at a point which is in excess of the market rate.

In any work or business environment, if you make yourself or your product more expensive than your competitors, you will suffer in terms of volume.

ken from glos

Do explain to me why it is politically impossible to withdraw from the E.U.

Ken

Can anyone tell me why withdrawing from the EU is politically impossible?

Mike, Brighton

Why is it politically impossible to withdraw from the EU. Only in the minds of Westminster-beltway residents and EU-fellow riders is it impossible.
In the broader country - you know the people who vote...it would be a vote winner

Jenny

"deeply foolish and deeply misleading 'British jobs for British workers' claim" - misleading, yes, foolish - no. There is no other country on earth that behaves so self-flagellatingly as the British.

Can you imagine the Japanese sneering at Japanese jobs for Japanese workers. ?
What's the point of the word British, exactly? What's the point of nationhood? I know most of the political class abandoned these concepts years ago nut they existed for centuries for a reason - and ours is the only country stupid enough to have junked nationhood altogether.

The only sane word on all this I have seen comes from Peter Hitchens:
http://hitchensblog.mailonsunday.co.uk/2009/02/british-jobs-for-british-workers.html

C Powell

A Prime Minister Cameron will find himself dealing with the fallout from a whole load of bombs left by Brown. That's why it is so important for the Tories to make it clear now what Brown is doing, that he is deliberately adopting a "scorched earth" policy and that - once again - the Tories will have to clean up the mess left by Labour.

strapworld

Mr Hoskin. You state that it is 'Politically Impossible' to withdraw from the EU!

On what do you base that? The British people have never been asked for their agreement for the political class to sign away the United Kingdom! The EU is NO democracy. It is a Totalitarian Regime and will become a Dictatorship when it gets its full time President (Who will be German-mark my words)

This issue of BJFBP has raised in so many minds the problems of the EU, which can and will only get worse.

What if the peoples of the UK decide to take to the streets, as in France and, indeed, Iceland and demand that politicians listen to them and the demand be To Come out of the EU!

We could follow William Hague's excellent line in building up and increasing the Commonwealth.

We could join with the United States and Canada.

We could rediscover ourselves and become the Nation dealing with the whole world again and not tied to the EU directives.

We could allow our farmers to produce the food they used to. To farm as they used to. So we could be self reliant again.

We could and should grab back our seas and fishing rights! Build up our Shipping Industry to its former greatness.

We could build our Shipbuilding Industry and give Engineering a great boost.

This is a great Country but I worry when opinion formers like yourself, can write such cowardly lines.

The first thing I would do, if I was Cameron, following your words. Is call a Referendum on the Lisbon Treaty -whether or not the Irish have voted yes- and use the outcome of that to re-negotiate.

If the EU will not we should just draw the line and start all over again as a Stand Alone Democracy.

Sorry. But I do despair with such comments. I certainly do not believe in a World Government.

Rhoda Klapp

I, and I expect a lot of Housers, would like to see an explanatino of why withdrawing from the EU is politically impossible, if a majority of the electorate desired it. Some polls suggest that it would be a close-run thing. In fact due to EU rules, re-negotiation of anything WOULD be impossible in practical terms as it would require a unanimous vote of countries.

Tim Carpenter LPUK

Withdrawing from the EU is only "politically impossible" for the big three, and in that they are letting us all down.

The Libertarian Party will either switch to EFTA status or, if that was not offered, withdraw, for the EU would otherwise prevent the manifesto from being implemented.

dogides

Education and training are important, Peter, but the first thing is to make sure that the current regulations do not make it beneficial for companies to hire from overseas (i.e. that we have a level playing field).

There is no point in investing in lots of education and training if the tax and rgulatory regimes make it advantangeous to ship people in. Companies, who quite reaosnably will keep and eye on the bottom line, will just keep on looking overseas.

cuffleyburgers

Prime Minister Cameron will certainly be dealing with the political fallout from a number of idiotic decisions taken by Labour over the last few years, as well as the economic fallout of a thousand other equally idiotic decisions, as will the whole country.

The surrendering of sovereignty to Brussels has taken place to a far greater extent than the vast majority of the GBP outside Brussels and Westminster could possibly believe.

There was some halfwit on the gogglebox the other day saying that "yes, well of course most of the legislation coming from Brussels is legislation which we would need anyway".

Relations with and within the EU are going to be sorely strained over the next few years as the combined effects of the recession, the drive to reduce CO2 emissions, and geo-political issues such as Russia, Iran, Turkey's membership create and exacerbate frictions between member states and it is absolutely VITAL that the British government is steadfast in defence of British interests.

We know that under Brown that will not happen. It hasn't happened since Thatcher, but Cameron must be prepared to rise to that challenge.

I don't write him off yet, but neither has he ever given too much reason for optimism. I still like to think this is because he sees Europe as a dangerous issue for the Tories as indeed it has been.

That need not be the case now. The GBP are starting to see through the web of lies they have been spun since Heath, and the recession will ensure that they have a healthy appetite for standing up for their own interests. That doesn't mean xenophobia either, merely a reluctance to stand for socialistic authoritarian bullying from France and Brussels.

Mark, Edinburgh

In my opinion I'm afraid this article still misses the point with regard to the specific Lindseay dispute, or the posted workers issue in general.

The new proposal appears to be to now offer half the jobs on the open Bristish labour market. There jobs are NOT BEING RESERVED for British passport holders. Any EU worker can apply whatever their passport and the unions don't have a problem with this. There is absolutley no problem in freely offering jobs in the UK labour market under EU law. The mre fact that the article suggests there could be a problem with this surely well illustrates the continued misunderstanding?

The Lindsey workers do not have a skill shortage. They are the cream of our industrial workforce. They (and everyone else whatever your passport) were excluded from applying for jobs at Lindsey because of recent ECJ decisions allowed the Italian contractor to restrict hirings to workers already under contract to them, and not offer them on the open UK labour market. You can oppose this practise, while still supporting the free movement of individuals in the EU. Indeed, quite a lot of people who have voted in the Coffee House poll have taken this very position.

Actually if you think about it the new proposal puts Total and IREM in an even more suspect light. Remember that their justification was that they needed have exclusive use of an existing contract workforce. It now seems they hadn't got enough staff and planned to recruit more staff to fufill this contract, but only outside the UK! In my view is quite outrageous, but still probably possible under EU posted workers law.

It's a pity that by running after the general, rather than focussing on the specific of the posted workers issue, the Tories have missed a trick.

There was a big opportunity here to attack the role of the ECJ and posted workers, while still being supportive of freedom of movement in general. A big opportunity to show the Tories were not just an "employer party" but could replace Labour in standing up for skilled workers when Labour had badly led them down.

Years ago there used to be a Tory Trade Union association which gave the party some sensible advice. Is this now defunct?

Alas the door is now shut. The airwaves are full of Labour backbenchers, (not the "usual suspects"), clearly speaking to the Campbell script and clawing back the situation.

CS

Strapworld, All Those Capital Letters Give Additional Force To Your Argument.

CS

***I, and I expect a lot of Housers, would like to see an explanatino***

Aha, an Italian interloper!

Nick

" In the meantime, it's impossible to imagine that British workers won't lose out to to cheaper, more skilled labour from abroad."

With the collapse of sterling against the euro how can skilled workers from countries such as Italy undercut UK workers ?

Faceless Bureaucrat

@ Strapworld

Brave words, my friend - but I fear cowardice now permeates almost every fibre of the UK political class (whatever party they represent). As such, whilst agreeing with the thrust of your argument, I believe it will take someone from OUTSIDE the main political class to even begin to take forward the kind of reform you suggest - anyone within the current political circle in the UK will now already be too tainted to even contemplate withdrawal from the EU.

The big worry is that the catalyst for such change will be the BNP - a party that is growing in popularity at an alarming rate due to the electorate believing (as, I suspect, we both do) that the mainstream political parties are no longer in touch with the real wishes of the citizens of this country.

I seem to remember one of Hitler's early (and ultimately highly successful) rallying cries was something like 'Deutsche arbeit fuer Deutschen Volk' or roughly translated 'German Jobs for German People' - now why does that sound vaguely familiar?...

Andrew Cadman

I add my voice to other coffee housers and ask why is it politically impossible to withdraw from the EU?

It would be more true to say that it is impossible because it does not suit the ambitions of the Political Class.

On principle, why would anyone want to remain in a body with such utter contempt for democracy and so corrupt its accounts have failed audit for 13 years in a row?

Pete Hoskin

Right, about the "politically impossible" thing...

I guess I should stress that I'm on a similar side of the argument to most of you. I strongly believe we should have a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty; I think the EU is a worryingly expensive, bureaucratic, undemocratic monster; and I think that Britain should work towards gaining "special status," opt-outs and the like. I've written as much on Coffee House before.

But...

Do you really think a first, second or even third term Cameron government could - or even would - take us out of the EU? Public will doesn't often factor into decisions on Europe (hence the Lisbon Treaty debacle), and Labour, the Lib Dems and a host of Tories would surely shoot any withdrawal down. That's why I said it would be "politically impossible". And I didn't think it would be so controversial as all that!

bill

Politically unacceptable to whom? The unelected EU Commission, MEPs, MPs, unelected Lords, the unelected part of the over-mighty establishment or the electorate who deserve a straight say? In any event if we don't pull out we will just have to wait for it to idastrously implode under the weight of its own contradictions, a la Communism.

Ian Walker

Even if we are hamstrung when it comes to EU countries, every year thousands of skilled British IT workers find their jobs have been taken by cheaper Indian and Chinese workers.

There's nothing to stop the government putting a stop to this by imposing a tariff on outsourcing to non-EU countries.

Making it uneconomic to outsource could bring 150,000 high-paid skilled jobs back to these shores.

Ray

As that great sage from Wolverhampton South West once cuttingly observed, "Too often today people are ready to tell us: 'This is not possible, that is not possible.' I say: whatever the true interest of our country calls for is always possible."

Oh, for a leader with the backbone to tell the EU to get stuffed!

Hawkeye

Strapworld said: "Mr Hoskin. You state that it is 'Politically Impossible' to withdraw from the EU!....On what do you base that?"

It is politically impossible because too many people in the UK want to be part of the EU and the internecine warfare that would result from an attempted withdrawal would tear the governing party apart whilst the opposition parties would pour fuel on the fire from the safety of the sidelines.

Having said that I would prefer to either leave the EU or scale back its influence massively. A third option would be to get enough right-of-centre parties to form a "power block" to force reforms through to end the socialist dominance and gravy train culture of the EU.

I would have NO problems if the internecine warfare was within Brussels.

Rob C

This issue of our position in (or out of) the EU has to be grasped by Government and resolved. If it isn't, then ultimately it will destroy them - whoever is in power. The ONLY people to decide this are the electorate and a referendum on not just the latest treaty, but our entire membership/future direction needs to be held. I think like most people, I embrace free trade, but NOT integrated politics and I don't believe it is just the UK electorate that need a voice - remember the other 'no' votes? If we are not very careful, the claim that the EU has prevented war in Europe will be dispelled with a civil war on an epic scale. Survival is part of human nature and politicians of all sides need to listen - not just hear and carry on as before. I despise unions in every form, but even I have some sympathy with these guys! I don't however believe that a strike solves anything and a movement to boycott Total would probably achieve more. Intimidation of the foreign workers is also very wrong, as is the BJ4BW slogan but we know which idiot is to blame for that don't we? A much better approach would be "Local jobs for local workers" as it more about the system and less about nationality. The repercussions for British workers abroad could be serious - especially in countries that are more volatile/militant and these 'protesters' should think carefully.

JONNY

Polically possible?
Maybe.
Economically disastrous?
Without one single doubt.
With 60% of our exports going to Europe.
Oh you rash hotheads! As if we hadn't got enough troubles already

TGF UKIP

Just so, so many reasons to vote UKIP - the UK's only conservative eurosceptic party.

True Bred Pomponian

On day one, Her Maj signs an order suspending membership of the EU. How difficult is that?

michael

How can it be impossible to withdraw from the EU? Whoever has a majority in the House of Commons forms the government. If they decide to leave then that is that.

No parliament can bind its successors.

Faceless Bureaucrat

@ Pete Hoskins [10.41]

"Do you really think a first, second or even third term Cameron government could - or even would - take us out of the EU?"

No, I don't - which is why I said in my comment @ 10.28 above:

"As such, whilst agreeing with the thrust of your argument [Strapworld], I believe it will take someone from OUTSIDE the main political class to even begin to take forward the kind of reform you suggest - anyone within the current political circle in the UK will now already be too tainted to even contemplate withdrawal from the EU."

You are right, Peter - anyone voting Conservative in the hope of a Tory government pulling back from the EU will be as disappointed as those bright-eyed Americans who voted for Obama in the mistaken belief that he, too, represented 'Change'...

TrevorsDen

Lets not confuse the 'EU' with 'Europe'.

European co-operation and free trade etc in a range of areas is a not unreasonable aspiration.

The present political set up which is organising that is quite unacceptable.

It is undemocratic it is corrupt it is totalitarian. An not just in one or two ways but in multiple ways.

British money is being poured down a black hole of corruption with no autdits or checks. Appalling and for a start - no money should be paid to the EU until it gets its financial house in order. Something I regard as a physical impossibility.

Ken

Withdrawal in the first Conservative term would clearly not be feasible, but why not during the second term? It would clearly be such a massive vote winner that the Conservatives could probably coast home to a third-term win.

Of course, once some of the other less than enthusiastic EU member countries saw the UK begin to renegotiate, they would be likely to want to follow suit. So, if the EU hasn't already disintegrated by that time under the weight of the current crisis, this would be the beginning of the end for it as a federalist project.

Whoops! I think I have just wet myself in excitement.

Johnathan Pearce

I'd be interested to know how many Britons work abroad and what might happen to them if foreign workers in the UK are told to go home.

mckenzie

Its called playing politics at the expense of the British working classes. Stick your EU law and directives up your arse I say. We were never given any choice over the matter and now they expect us to lie down in the gutter and suck shit through straw.

British Jobs For British Workers, WE ARE NOT ASKING YOU KNOBHEAD...WE ARE TELLING YOU!

Ray

Jonny - ever since we joined in 1973 we have run up massive yearly trade deficits with other members of the EU. Are you seriously suggesting that EU governments that have consistently demonstrated a more hard-headed approach to their economic interests than ever has our own would cut off their noses to spite their faces by imposing a trade blockade on the United Kingdom if we dared to leave?

Truly the scaremongering of the Europhiles knows no bounds.

Mark, edinburgh

Jonathen Peace 11.53

FCO website says 1.1 million EU migrant workers in UK, 230,000 UK migrant workers elsewhere in EU.

This post thread has run after the issue of EU membership because of the one sentence by Peter Hoskin. The Lindsey dispute is not about this, nor even the genral issue of free labour migration in the EU - see my post 10.17am.

To answer your specific question, in the hypothetical case Britain was not in the EU, then the 230,000 would presumably have to apply for work permits given on the basis of local need for their particular skills.

To put this in context, close to one million British workers work overseas outside the EU, primarily in the Gulf, the Far East, Australia, Canada and the USA. This is 5 times as many as work in the EU and they seem to have had no difficulty in obtaining the necessary work permits.

Jenny

Up yours, Delors.

And the rest of them, too.

Hawkeye

TrevorsDen said "British money is being poured down a black hole of corruption with no autdits or checks."

Cameron should simply withhold EU membership payments until the audits are passed. The loss of a few billion Euros would focus minds.

How would they complain? How would the EU respond to "Sort out the corruption, get the accounts signed off and you can have the money with interest on the delayed payment"?

Very hard to insist on the payment whilst corruption is on-going. I wold like to see how the pro-EU brigade justify giving payments to corrupt organisation.

Rex Burr

Hereford
The Global Market Rate for the bulk of semi skilled jobs is probably in the region of £1.00 an hour.
Who in the UK can buy a £200,000 house, raise a family and contribute to the economy on that.
There aren’t enough hours in the day.
Oh yes, I forgot, use borrowed money.

Agincourt

Why are we still debating about Britain being in the EU or not? The simple way to bring this whole tedious issue to a welcome end is for Britain to LEAVE the loathesome EU! When? NOW!

Neil Turner

We really need to ge behind UKIP here

I suggest as many as possible vote UKIP in the summer. I will be doing so for the first time

This will give them (and us) a voice that the media can't ignore. It will also send a shiver through the Tories, odds-on to form the next government

This issue transcends party politics - it doesn't matter whether you are red, blue of yellow, vote UKIP

Let's get mobilised !

Agincourt

Why are we still debating about Britain being in the EU or not? The simple way to bring this whole tedious issue to a welcome end is for Britain to LEAVE the loathesome EU! When? NOW!

Chris Gilmour

Could the government make it more attractive to employ workers who live in Britain as opposed to foreign workers shipped in especially. Such as lower employer NIC contributions or tax breaks for companies employing a higher proportion of native workers?

Do these foreign chaps even pay income tax to this country?

Rhoda Klapp

Chris Gilmour, that would be illegal. In practice, firms which employ UK workers are less able to fiddle tax and NI, easily done when your workforce is not from this country, has no NI number, and will noty be of interest to HMRC. There is no legal way to favour UK workers. Probably there should not be. It ought to be legal to give them an equal chance though, and that is the issue here.

Hereford

Rex Burr: Good forensic debating point. You must be a civil servant and probably a virgo. Clearly I was referring to the global market in like for like skilled oil and power workers. Expecting these people to compete with asian and african sweat shop workers would be stupid I grant you.

But of course you knew that is not what I meant :o)

Fergus Pickering

Well, we could try just ignoring the bits of EU law we don't like, which is what everyone else does. It's surely not beyond the wit of man to work out some defence of the indefensible and insist on, well, Britih jobs for British workers and go home Johnny Foreigner, in this case Luigi foreigner.

thomas

I think Pete Hoskins has nailed it in his response below. It is 'politically impossible' because the politicians wouldn't allow it, not because of public opinion. And therein lies the truth that us eurosceptics have been banging on about for ages. The EU has been a way for the political class to neuter democracy and grasp control free from public scrutiny. The logic of this position does indeed lead to totalitarianism, which is why the more excitable comments that the EU is fascist/soviet/etc. are correct, if poorly expressed.

thomas

Hawkeye, 'too many people want to be a part of the EU'? About 20% by all recent polls actually. What we have is government for the minority by the minority.

Hysteria

good job we have tight gun control laws in the UK - anyone know where I can get a decent pitchfork...?

Rex Burr

Hereford
Civil Servant - No
Virgo - Yes
You may not have meant wage competition with the third world but I fear some do.

Herbert Thornton

Faceless bureaucrat says, of the need to withdraw from the E.U. - "The big worry is that the catalyst for such change will be the BNP."

That's rather like a person with appendicitis saying - "I know that if it's left untreated I shall probably die, but the big worry is that I shall have to go into hospital for an operation."

I should have thought that the big worry for British people is that so long as any of the main parties in power, withdrawal from the E.U. will never happen. Even worse, Scotland, Wales and England will not just cease to be Scotch, Welsh and English but their people will be replaced by a completely different population.

So why is the idea of having a BNP government a "big worry"?

Oliver Chettle

There is nothing politically impossible about withdrawing from the EU. Political changes as and more dramatic happen all over the world on a regular basis, usually after lots of complacent statements from those with an interest in the status quo that change is impossible. Change is always possible, and when it happens the world doesn't come to an end, people get on with dealing with the new realities.

Oliver Chettle

Having read Peter Hoskin's explanation of why he says it is "politically impossible" I am even more appalled. Elites which do not serve the the true needs of a nation are always overthrown in the end, whether they last decades or centuries, so of course it is possible that the EUcracy will be overthrown. Mr Hoskin's complacency about the apparent termination of meaningful democracy in this country is just sickening. It may not be easy to destroy the entrenched power of the three ugly sister parties and their overlords in Brussels, but it won't be any harder than destroying the Nazi Party or the Communist Party of the Soviet Union, and it's just as essential to the future of this country, so we should all be prepared to fight for the cause for the rest of our lives, and if necessary hand on the fight to our children and grandchildren. We must never surrender to the EU. The Jews got Israel back after nearly 2,000 years, so we can get England back one day too.