More continuity than change on torture
John Stokes 7:04pm
The prospect of revenge and justice against the kidnappers and torturers of the Bush administration have been prime drivers for many Obama activists which explains the huge cloud of disillusionment that is spreading across Washington. The activists could stand a rollback on the Iraqi withdrawal, a troop build up in Afghanistan, even the unwillingness to seek the impeachment of Bush and Cheney. But the final straw has come with the confirmation hearing of Leon Panetta, the incoming head of the Central Intelligence Agency.
It was the CIA who kidnapped people off the streets of foreign capitals, hid them away in secret prisons where they were tortured or sent them to third countries where other brutal regimes could do the torturing on America’s behalf. When Leon Panetta was announced as the nominee for the CIA, there was cheering among the rank and file and a frisson of fear at CIA headquarters at Langley. After all, Panetta had been one of the fiercest critics of the torture and rendition program which he described repeatedly as clearly illegal. Here, at last, the activists thought, someone would be held accountable. But at his confirmation hearings last week Panetta said that no action will be taken against anyone who might have carried out what he and others considered illegal acts in the Bush years.
This has produced sighs of relief in the intelligence community where many feared they might become embroiled in a long and legally expensive witch hunt that would derail their careers and jeopardize their freedoms.
Panetta also made clear that much of the torture business will continue as usual and nobody from the Bush years will be held accountable. While waterboarding has been banned, CIA agents will still be allowed to kidnap suspects and hold them for an undefined time without trial. The Red Cross will be given access to the suspects but when and under what circumstances is not clear.
At the same time, Panetta has said that he expects the rendition program to continue. This is the biggest shocker of all given the way rendition works. Basically, the CIA hands over a suspect to a country like Egypt which routinely uses torture to get information. While the CIA officer does not actually attach the alligator clips or turn on the electricity, he directs the course of the interrogation and is sometimes standing in the cell which the prisoner is tortured.
Given the Congressional criticism of the Bush counter terrorist program, Panetta might have been expected to get a rough ride at the hearings. In fact, his confirmation this week is a certainty and the Democrats have turned overnight from critics to pussies.
The CIA argues that these programs produce valuable intelligence. It’s true that under torture terrorists have revealed all kinds of details about the inner workings of Al Qaeda but whether they have produced actionable intelligence that has prevented a terrorist attack is quite another matter. In any event, America’s kidnapping, rendition and torture program did immense damage to America’s standing in the world. The fact that the program is going to continue as Bush lite dismays the more sophisticated counter terrorist specialists on Obama’s team and undermines the moral high ground that Obama rhetoric sought to occupy in the election campaign.
Previous
TrevorsDen
February 8th, 2009 7:47pm Report this commentWho gives a damn about various nefarious terrorists getting their comeuppance?
Make no mistake significant numbers of Americans and westerners are going to die somewhere in the world in due course. Terrorists know weakness when they see it.
No ...
Obama had better wake up and realise that the likes of Nancy Pelosi have gotten their claws into the US economy.
They and we are doomed.
seb
February 8th, 2009 8:07pm Report this commentAnd this 'revenge' against the torturers and murderers? That sounds just dandy. Would there be dancing in the streets as one lot of Americans saw another lot of Americans locked up in jail? That really would be the ultimate in national healing and would make sure that all Americans put the whole issue behind them and never, ever mentioned it again. J*sus H Christ. What planet do you live on? No. I should ask what century you're from. Even the successors to Lincoln realised that 'revenge' for the atrocities of the Civil War was a non-starter. But we're so much nobler and brainier today. That must be it.
Humphrey
February 8th, 2009 8:09pm Report this comment"It’s true that under torture terrorists have revealed all kinds of details about the inner workings of Al Qaeda..."
It is? How do you know?
kinglear
February 8th, 2009 8:12pm Report this commenti don't know why anyone is surprised - Obama was clearly working on the Blair plan. Say anything to get elected then business as usual.
Herbert Thornton
February 8th, 2009 8:17pm Report this commentThe next attempted terrorist atrocity is doubtless being planned - and eventually, there may be a nuclear one.
True morality requires that we do everything in our power to prevent more London Tube bombings, more attacks like the on the World Trade Centre, and other similar mass murders.
Failure to use waterboarding and similarly effective techniques in order to keep our populations safe makes it easier for the terrorists to succeed. It assists the enemy, betrays our own people, and constitutes moral cowardice so foolish as to be actually evil.
John Stokes' article is fundamentally immoral.
mac
February 8th, 2009 8:22pm Report this commentYou mean that, gasp,"change you can believe in" was just electioneering spin?
Say it ain't so.
Max Kaye
February 8th, 2009 8:29pm Report this commentGood.
And as the CIA is allegedly active in the UK, let's hope they start to remove some of the al Qaeda activists and supporters off our streets as our government seems unable or unwilling to do anything about them.
Aless
February 8th, 2009 8:35pm Report this commentThose who criticise government methods usually do seem to change their minds when they join the ranks themselves
Jenny
February 8th, 2009 8:40pm Report this comment"In any event, America’s kidnapping, rendition and torture program did immense damage to America’s standing in the world."
No. It was spineless, jihadist-appeasing reporters like you that did immense damage to America and the rest of the free world by ignoring the jihad we are faced with.
Funny how people like you lose your voice about the levels of torture - used for domestic criminals - in the Islamic world. America has only been reduced to waterboarding because it has to guard against another 9/11, not because it is gratuitously punishing burglars and muggers.
What a pathetic piece of 'journalism'.
Walsingham's Ghost
February 8th, 2009 9:21pm Report this commentAnd we are surprised about this, why?...
Faceless Bureaucrat
February 8th, 2009 9:23pm Report this commentI have to say, even I didn't think the Obama myth would unravel THIS quickly.
Death or Tory
February 8th, 2009 9:33pm Report this comment"Given the Congressional criticism of the Bush counter terrorist program, Panetta might have been expected to get a rough ride at the hearings. In fact, his confirmation this week is a certainty and the Democrats have turned overnight from critics to pussies."
That's because it still hasn't quite dawned on all of those 'tearful and dewey-eyed' Obama supporters yet that it is going to be 'business as usual' in the USA. As is normal in politics, it is always easier to shout from the sidelines in opposition, than to deliver those dog-whistle policies when in office - be prepared for a cloud of despondency to settle over Democrats across America as the blinkered 'anyone but Bush' mindset finally gives way to the dawning of reality.
Matthew Blott
February 8th, 2009 10:08pm Report this commentExcellent post. There is no evidence that torture has "produced actionable intelligence that has prevented a terrorist attack" anywhere in the world ever. The ticking time bomb scenario seen often in 24 is good drama but far removed from reality.
As the author states, torture is counterproductive because it stains the reputation of those using it. But more importantly it can lead to bad intelligence. If someone has your testicles attached to electrodes you tell him exactly what you think he wants to hear - and that is not necessarily going to be the truth. If he says you are a terrorist you agree with him even if you are not.
Verity
February 9th, 2009 12:56am Report this commentHerbert Thornton - Yes. Agreed.
Jenny - Agreed.
But the left doesn't like robust opinions. They don't like it up 'em.
Matthew Blott says: "As the author states, torture is counterproductive because it stains the reputation of those using it."
Oh! Boo bloody hoo! Getting the truth out of those who planned the WTC atrocity and those in Britain who planned to blow up ten 747s over American cities simultaneously "stains our reputations"?
Saving 300m people is immoral?
Are you insane?
In what hell hole were you spawned?
Reality Check
February 9th, 2009 2:55am Report this commentOh no, people who want to force all of us to live under a 7th century sharia caliphate might not have been treated well. The same folk who kill their daughters when they don't obey them and throw acid in the face of women that reject them.
The real crime is that stronger measures haven't been used, more countries haven't been invaded, and that there isn't a car battery to be had in any western country thanks to the demand from the security services.
cuffleyburgers
February 9th, 2009 8:10am Report this commentI agree with matthew Blott.
The only way we can win this so-called war is by planting our standard firmly on the moral high ground.
I do not believe that the systematic use of torture by the western democracies is the way to achieve that. it is doubtful that it has led to actionable intelligence.
I have no doubt that there is a threat, probably not such a threat as we are led to believe by our governments, but I do not believe the way to eliminate that threat is to sink to the level of the terrorists.
TrevorsDen
February 9th, 2009 9:09am Report this commentObama and the administration are now charged with defending America.
Thats the difference.
If anyone thinks they can defend America whilst at the same time appeasing the numpty left of the Democrat activist base - then please step forward, 'cos your a genius of heroic proportions.
givrnup
February 9th, 2009 10:45am Report this commentsociety, is judged by how it treats the weakest person under its control. when you have power over someone you have to look inside you to your actions. this support of torture today should at least be recognised as acceptable in the USA by the population.
Sarah
February 9th, 2009 4:22pm Report this commentMatthew Blott says: ‘There is no evidence that torture has "produced actionable intelligence that has prevented a terrorist attack" anywhere in the world ever.’
Of course, there isn’t!
If you get information out of an informant, you don’t go and tell the whole world what you know, do you?
If Matthew Blott hasn’t read each and every CIA file, apparently all its evidence-gathering is invalid.
Herbert Thornton
February 9th, 2009 6:29pm Report this commentVerity -
You and I both seem to cause the softies to have attacks of the vapours. I've more or less given up on watching the BBC (OWBP), but now and again I attempt a comment on their Internet "Have Your Say" pages.
One of their latest daft questions was about the proposed travel database. As you see from the final line, my tongue in cheek comment on that topic seems to have given them the vapours too -
DEBATE:
Will a travel database help combat crime?
SENT:
08-Feb-2009 16:21
COMMENT:
The unspoken aim of this record-keeping is to track people whose foreign travel consists of going to Pakistan for the well known tourist activity of a stay in that country's educational holiday camps where they receive a terrific welcome, enjoy the company of like-minded people, make useful contacts, and are taught the finer points of terrorism and the need for it to be used to improve the world.
Obviously the database is a Bad Thing. It won't combat crime but it will work against virtue.
COMMENT STATUS:
Rejected
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