A mistake that must not be repeated

TrevorsDen

I take your points - seems ineptness by FSA (no surprise we are in a financial mess now then is it?) and crass stupidity by RBS (ditto).

And on the financial mess and the G20 coming up --- it looks like it is deja vue all over again.

France Germany stitching up the mainstream EU position again with Britain left outside looking in and to make matters worse we have Britain allying itself with the USA but in this case with a USA that is not really interested in any sort of deal anyway.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/financetopics/g20-summit/4981115/G20-Barack-Obama-not-seeking-specific-commitment-at-London-summit.html

I say 'to make matters worse' in the context of of the Euro view Britain, this time under Brown, being seen as not European but transatlantic.

It is quite risible that Brown went to America to garner plaudits to bolster his image at home but has ended up pleasing no one - not the USA and not the Euros.

But rest easy - no matter what happens EVERYBODY will say it is a great success and the planet has been saved.

hysteria

good summary!

hmmmm

And the fact they miss this up is symptomatic of the broader malaise - too many bad middle managers treading water, stifling any sense of individual responsibility.

A. Upton - Ogood

But, FN, what you ignore is that this instruction must have been filtered down and sideways through several levels of the RBS organization, imnvolving hundreds of employees, and no-one can have questioned their boss. Are they all pre-programmed zombies?

Euphorbia Bean

If RBS "misread" the EU regulations is there any surprise that they are in such a mess now? What hope is there for any British institution if people cannot read properly? As it is, I have noticed that letters are sent out by all types of businesses without proper signatures and, what is worse, they have not been read after being printed. The amount of inaccurate information that is circulated because employees do not read and check everything is actually unacceptable. The time and money and stress wasted on this is enormous.
Is there any chance that during this recession standards can be raised?

Conlige suspectos semper habitos

But why ask the question anyway? It's like the US customs official who asks whether you have ever belonged to a terrorist organisation. Does anybody ever answer 'yes' to loaded questions like that?

mckenzie

You are spot on Fraser. And as Cath says about RBS, I also draw a similarity about how it highlights how we the British people seem to be so easily herded like dumb sheep. My daughter has been unemployed for six months, and she was on the phone negotiating her overdraft to Natwest, when the operator asked her WHY HAVE YOU BEEN UNEMPLOYED FOR SIX MONTHS? To add insult to injury, the operator was from Planet Slum Dog Millionaire.

Ray

Far more worrying than a call-handler asking a politically-charged question (clumsily or otherwise) is the rush towards a cashless society.

Yesterday I posted the warning from the Book of Revelation about the advent of 'the Beast', without whose permission people could neither buy nor sell. With the coming of the cashless society - where all financial transactions are electronic - the opportunity for such control is rapidly approaching.

Using biochip technology, either inserted under the skin or tattooed upon us as a barcode (hence the Biblical prophecy about having to "receive a mark on his right hand or on his forehead") nobody would be able to so much as buy so much as a loaf of bread without it being flagged up on a database somewhere.

This would give governments total command over the lives of ordinary people, as well as the ability to simply freeze the electronic money accounts of those who they dislike.

We might think that having such surveillance techniques to hand are an aid to money laundering or fighting terrorism, but in reality no government would for long be able to resist the temptation to start prying into peoples' lives and controlling what they get up to.

David Ossitt

But it is a cock-up that chimes uncomfortably with this government’s insatiable appetite for information about the lives of others, and the steady politicisation of the banks.

I think this could have been a very good thing, we are faced with intrusive questions where ever we turn.

Let this be the spur to us all refusing to answer impertinent questions.

Rhoda Klapp

Surely it's a cockup, but it bring to light yet again the stupidity of tickbox culture. And THAT leads to a realisation that the FSA used the same methods in pretending to regulate the banks in the first place.
Q. Are you making outrageous bets on badly-rated instruments with money you don't have?
A.Tick NO.

Regulatory response:That's OK then.

Owen Morgan

TrevorsDen, do you speak English?

Oscar

You are spot on Fraser. Don't be put off the scent by craven apologetics. We need to be very very vigilent about guarding democracy and freedom to support the political party of our choice without fear or favour is paramount. Those who think this incident is trivial or insignificant are deluded - or worse - acting as apologists for creeping tyranny.

Susan Hill

One of the reason the apparatchiks in RBS, as elsewhere, did not question it is because they know no history and because, even more frighteningly, they have lived under a Socialist government for 12 years. If you were, say, 14 in 1997, you are now 26 ande working for a bank which asks questions you regard as completely normal. This is the way it works. They have no idea that it is frighteningly intrusive or where this sort of uber-surveillance can and does lead because to them it is the norm, they have lived with it all their adult lives. So of course they passed the question all the way down the line, and accepted its reason for being there. Though we all have to submit to the more and more rigorous tests to prove we are not money launderers, it never ceases to be true that real money launderers manage it every day, just as internet scammers succeed where you and I would fall at the first hurdle. So apart from being intrusive and irrelevant, the question about political status is also totally pointless. It won`t stop a single African drugs potentate from laundering as many squillions as he likes. Hey Ho.

Angry of SE1

Is it this sort of Misunderstanding unguided by political control which made them launch a loan scheme for house buyers in Scotland only this week?

The money for this came from UK taxpayers - why launch a Scotland only product?

Mike, Brighton

Fraser.
Some inside knowledge from Banking....
Any KYC (Know Your Customer) client acquisition script/set-up script would have been reviewed and signed off by RBS legal and compliance. Each call centre drone (as you put it) would have been trained in it and the client contact systems would have had the script embedded within them. Including responses to obvious questions (which the drones failed to answer). It's a lot systemic failures!
RBS is NOT regulated by the EU and is not subject to EU directive per se. Only when those directives are passed into UK statute and implemented by the FSA does the regulation become "live" and relevant to RBS. You have been mislead about the role of the EU in this process.
I have checked the relevant FSA regulations and frankly find RBSs actions much more sinister.
The FSA regulations are targeted at persons of "higher money laundering risks associated with customers who, by virtue of their position in public life, are vulnerable to corruption". In effect this is a background AML (anti-money laundering) check process similar to OFAC and EU restricted list.
For this to be probed in a call centre conversation is deeply disquieting and your excuses for RBS are a little hollow I'm afraid. For example the call centre drone did not ask if you were on the OFAC list or the EU restricted lists! The back office check this out against your name, address and references as they should for PEP AML (politically exposed person anti-money laundering) exposure.
Please see : http://www.fsa.gov.uk/Pages/About/What/financial_crime/money_laundering/peps/index.shtml

THX1138

Fraser - Great blogosphere story- Firstly I'm glad that you have rowed back/clarified the inference that RBS was asking potential customers political affiliations to somehow discriminate against Tory supporting clients or even more paranoid to pass this information on the Government.

Looks like you have excepted that this was just a crass interpretation of FSA guidelines by a call centre drone not some dystopian conspiracy, other Coffee Housers' are so blinded by their hatred of the Government that they are prepared to believe anything however far fetched that backs up their prejudices.

As I showed you with my online Amex form all the banks and credit card companies are asking the same question albeit as my form was online with less individual interpretation from a member of staff

Ask yourself if the Government wanted to collect info on political affiliation why just stick to one bank why not ask it every time the citizen interacts with the state such as using the NHS or claming benefits and they don't do that.

The more important and wider question is that of the growth of the database state, here I'm totally in agreement with you and Dave C. The Childrens DB, ID cards, connecting for health, DNA database and CCTV, how far as a society are we prepared to allow the state to collect info on us and how many billions is this costing. What about the malign influence inside Government of these huge computer consulting firms who make fortunes from pushing these systems to Government and provide a revolving door for ex ministers like Blunkett & civil servants as paid advisors and employees.

This is the important question and the debate we should be having on the Coffee House, RBS is a side show to this much more important issue.

Chuck Unsworth

Why does RBS blindly accept 'regulations'? Does this major financial organisation (I hesitate to say 'bank') have no one who might, just possibly, ask 'why?' - or for that matter bother to follow the logic of what they are being asked/instructed - and agreeing - to do?

It seems that most people have lost all concept of free will, of thinking for themselves, of identity - to the extent that they are merely drones.

What has happened to our courage, our pride, our sense of identity, our consideration for our fellow man? Old fashioned, I know, but I try to live a decent and honourable life and make a contribution (however small) to our society. There are many others who do exactly the same. But I am constantly enraged by these petty (sometimes not so petty) injustices.

We are daily faced with naked and irresponsible abuses of power by these people. Their sole aim in life is to control. It is their ghastly relentless search for power over others which is so sickening. These people are not civilised human beings. It is time we told them all to go to hell.

Paul Round

The absurdity of the anti moneu laundering regulations have been with us since the Major government.In fact, the annoying intrusiveness and pettifogging nature of them have merely inconvenienced the innocent while not preventing any ill-gotten gains from being laudered.A favourite ploy is to take large amounts of cash to a Casino; "that'll do nicely sir!"

oldtimer

You were right to raise the issue. I agree it looks like a case of yet more bungling incompetence. It must be like those still missing voting slips at Glenrothes - just another cockup.

wonderfulforhisage

It stems from the same attitude of mind that created the 'elf and safety' industy. This in turn stems from an education system that was designed to encourage people to think to one whose focus is on box ticking and social engineering.

It will take decades to fix.

Verity

Susan Hill is correct. This is how a population becomes subjugated by stealth. The people asking the questions went to school over the last 12 years and think that intrusion into private lives is perfectly normal.

jwright

Inept or not. The new chairman CEO of Rbs should be made to apologise publicly.Many of your members appear ignorant of the aphorism ... the price of Freedom is eternal vigilance.

occasional ranter

Do you think there are any lessons in this little saga for you, Fraser ? Is the political media at all to blame for the arse-covering, box-ticking mentality of our public and private institutions ?

I'm a politically right-leaning lawyer with a genuine understanding of (i) the AML requirements and (ii) the "cock-up not conspiracy" way in which most huge businesses are run, and I'm left disappointed by the way you keep manufacturing outrage at what is - politically - a non-story.

Pot Head

"A mistake that must not be repeated"

Does that apply to Fraser Nelson's blog post or RBS?

Anan

Well done Fraser for this investigation. Anyone who thinks its "nothing" will surely feel at home in Zimbabwe or some other corrupt country like Mexico. These are the small first steps on the path to totalitarianism. They've already arrested an opposition MP for no reason, next what? Ban the Conservative party? I won't be too surprised if it happens.

Craig R

Occasional Ranter - I'd rather this kind of story were picked up occasionally as a mistake than missed completely. In this day and age its sad but true, we need this kind of scrutiny...