Hague talks referenda

AndyLeeds

Good. And very clever politics. The public are very p***** off with the EU. Also it will suck votes from UKIP.

David Ossitt

"And for the first time he hinted that a referendum could still be promised in the Tory manifesto, even if the treaty had been ratified"

That's wonderful news; if they do put it in their manifesto it will persuade even more to vote Tory.

Chris

Hague's a massive vote loser. He had his chance and he was overwhelmingly rejected by the electorate. Cameron should get him out of the shadow cabinet asap.

tim Carpenter (LPUK)

Hague MUST continue and call a referendum. No Parliament can bind its successors and MPs swear an oath not to cede sovereignty to any foreign power. Thus, they could even repeal it and all previous agreements without going for a referendum if they so wished.

That is what the Libertarian Party are going to do. You might consider a referendum to JOIN, but you do not need a referendum to uphold your existing oaths or sovereignty!

Hawkeye

Sounds like a plan... of course, with the speed the lefties are falling apart at, there may be election this year.

My money is on an August 09 poll as Brown will try his usual kack-handed tactics to have the election when the core tory vote is abroad for their holidays in Tuscany, quaffing Chianti whilst standing on the backs of the local peasants. At least Blair never did that! ;-)

I really do not think that the destruction of Labour can continue until summer 2010. There isn't enough of them left to wreck.

Brown is the best asset that we on the centre-right have ever had.

frank goddard

Chris,
What a lot of cods wollop you write on this forum.I think that you and a few others should get a grip on events and give 100% backing to to the present tory team.
Frank..G...ennglish pensioner.

David Ossitt

Chris

"Hague's a massive vote loser"

Nonsense; utter drivel.

drakes drum

Chris..go back and make Brown's morning hot milk.

You people are quite sick.

Hague is a monumental political heavyweight, compared to Gordon Brown- the worst, most incompetent prime minister this country has had the misfortune to have.

I have a dream...and Brown does not figure in it at all!¬

David Ossitt

Hawkeye

"Brown is the best asset that we on the centre-right have ever had"

Hawkeye; ditto, some of us still further to the right would agree.

Publius

I see Dan Hannan makes the sensible point that a bad treaty does not suddenly become a good treaty just because everyone else has ratified it.

Slim Jim

'But the British public deserves to know whether "No," really does mean "No".'

Well, it obviously doesn't mean that when it comes to the Irish public! If the government really believed in democracy and the strength of their case, they should have HONOURED their MANIFESTO COMMITTMENT.

Steve.W

When William Hague does PMQs it's a joy. He manages to be both funny and clever in a way no other politician can match. The voter will listen to him on the subject of a referendum and trust him. Voter, referendum, trust, you can't make a sentence with those three words and refer to a Nulabour politician and be taken seriously.

Ronnie

Oh come now, surely it's not a treaty? It's just a little 'administrative tidying up'

TGF UKIP

"The Tories are showing a renewed determination to tackle the Lisbon Treaty."

Wrong, wrong, wrong! More like the Tories are showing a desperate determination to attempt to stop a mass desertion to UKIP and to con gullible buggers like Pete Hoskin.

Coffee Housers should know only too painfully well that the Tories, and especially the Cameron Tories, cannot be trusted on Europe.

I'll give 5/1 against the Tories actually holding a refendum on a ratified Lisbon Treaty - in the surprising event that they don't manage to screw up winning the election.

Tom Pride

William Hague had a thankless task taking over from John Major at a time when the country did not wish to hear from the Conservatives. The tide was well and truly running against them. It irritates me to see / hear him criticised for failing to win the 2001 election against Mr Blair. No one, not William Hague nor anyone else, nor even any policies would have removed Blair, provided New Labour did not mess up the economy in their first term. William Hague deserves credit and praise for carrying out the leadership as well as he did at a desperate time for the Conservative Party. His PMQs performances were often masterly.

And while I am at it, I feel the same about Michael Howard. (“This Grammar School boy won’t take any lectures from that Public School boy . . .).

John Lea

Hague is one of the most skilful politicians around. In interviews, he explains the most intricate and complex of policies in a way that is easy to follow, yet never comes across as patronising or arrogant. Prefer him to Cameron, and hope he gets another chance at the top job one day.

seb

Tom Pride

Agree, especially about Hague's outstanding gifts as a speaker. Hague and Howard are more liked than the nation's cretinous press, certainly, would want us to believe. Whatever their advantages over the orc-like Prime Minister in terms of honesty, affability, sense of humour and the rest, the core Labour vote will stick with the orc. A lot of votes went Pretty Boy Blair's way for the obvious and deeply embarrassing reason that he looked young and slick. One retired friend of mine, a former aerospace engineer, preferred Blair over Hague because Hague had no hair. Oops. Did I say that only our nation's press was cretinous?

The Huntsman

We are firmly in weasel words territory here.

The UK has already ratified the Treaty of Lisbon.

The Treaty has, however, not come into force and will not do so until such as Ireland and the Czech Republic complete their ratifications. If they decline to ratify the Treaty, that is an end of the matter. If they do ratify, it will come into force and we should be prepared for that.

Thus far the ONLY promise from the Conservative party is to hold a referendum on the Treaty (which, as every fule kno, is the EU Constitution by another name) if it has been ratified but has not come into force, i.e. the situation as exists at present.

The party would then campaign for a 'NO' vote in that referendum, presumably on the basis that the Treaty is contrary to the vital national interests of the United Kingdom.

There is, however, no promise whatsoever to hold a referendum if the Treaty has, by the time a Tory Government is elected, come into force.

At that point the Treaty does not suddenly cease to be against the interests of the UK: indeed the damage to our interests increases because it has come into force.

The refusal to promise to hold a referendum in those circumstances is therefore illogical, inconsistent and deeply devious.

The only honourable and proper position to adopt is for the party to promise a referendum in either circumstance.

If not, many who would otherwise vote conservative will vote UKIP who at least have a consistent policy on this issue.

That would be very damaging: needlessly decreasing the Tory vote at a time when we need as strong a showing as possible to demonstrate long-term support for the Conservatives as we seek to oust the worst Socialist government yet.

Price Sinclair

william still believes, "In Europe but not ruled by Europe"
A referendum in those terms would be completely pointless.
It's UKIP for me.

Denis Cooper

It's worth pointing out that, strictly speaking, any referendum within the UK is only a consultative referendum.

Even if the government says that it will treat the outcome as binding, and even if Parliament passes a law saying that it shall be binding, there's always the possibility that Parliament may afterwards pass another law to set its result aside.

It all comes down to trust between the people and the politicians.

Under some extraordinary but conceivable circumstances, the people might accept that Parliament had done the right thing by setting aside a referendum result, despite a previous promise that it would be binding; just as they might accept that the government had done the right thing by setting aside one of its manifesto promises.

Therefore, as a start Cameron could at this point make this unambiguous promise: that provided the Lisbon Treaty hadn't already been officially declared dead, then he would put it to a consultative referendum in the UK, irrespective of what may happen in other EU member states.

Then, as events unfolded over the coming months, he could refine his plan of action in the likely event that the treaty was rejected.

David Ossitt

Tom Pride.

I agree with you in every particular a very sensible and well thought out post.

Verity

"... spell out in its manifesto what action it would take to reverse European integration." Weasel words promising exactly nothing.

"Pressed on whether in those circumstances a referendum could still be promised in a Tory manifesto, he said: 'We would not rule anything in or out.'"

In other words, "I'm not saying yes and I'm not saying no. In fact, I'm saying bugger all and it makes bugger all sense."

What's wrong with saying, "We will not, under any circumstances, ratify the Lisbon Treaty and we will seek to unravel some of our more hazardous ties to the European Union."

David Cameron is a dangerous, over-ambitious individual and I detect no enthusiasm for him other than in his clique.

TGI UKIP nails it.

Tim Carpenter - Very sound and sensible words. David Cameron will not like to read them.

Someone find Daniel Hannan a seat, fast.

Verity

PS - William Hague and Michael Howard are heroes. (And don't forget, Michael Howard won in England.)

davmc

From the word go the tories have lied to us on europe,just think of heath,do you honestly think I would trust them with these weasley words.They won't get my vote till i get a cast iron promise on a referendum.In,out or economic only.
UKIP won't do well round here,too torylike,it's the BNP that will get the vote.

Verity

Price Sinclair says Hague still believes in "in Europe but not ruled by Europe". Where is your evidence for this silly statement? Hague believes nothing of the kind. Hague's toeing the party line, although I cannot think why.

Dennis Cooper writes: "Therefore, as a start Cameron could at this point make this unambiguous promise: that provided the Lisbon Treaty hadn't already been officially declared dead ...".

An "unambiguous promise"? David Cameron?

Roger Helmer MEP

Surely no one imagines that a future Conservative government would have a referendum on Lisbon, and then defy the electorate and do the opposite? That's inconceivable. It's not practical politics.

JP Floru

"I think the key thing is that their manifesto makes it clear whether the result will be binding on the government"
What did you think it would mean for a Conservative government? We have already made it abundantly clear that we would campaign for a "no". Sorry, but a bit of a silly thing to say.
It's perfectly clear now: only a vote for the Conservatives will do the trick.

teledu

Vote UKIP in June, perhaps if enough do it might just get Cameron to make the cast-iron promise(is there such a thing from a politician?) of a referendum once in power, regardless of its ratification or not.

christina speight

Most people seem to be missing the elephant in the room here. It’s the promise that the party will spell out in its manifesto what action it would take to reverse European integration.

This would be fine if we were all quite sure WHICH manifesto he was talking about . We need to know the answer to that before voting in the euro-elections in 36 days time. This promise looks purely designed to boost Tory votes in the euro-elections with an unspecific promise.

As far as that goes where IS the manifesto for that election anyway?

Dealing with the Tory party on Europe is like walking through ankle-high treacle. You have to drag every bit of information out of them

AndyLeeds

Voting UKIP in June is a waste of a vote. If many people had not voted from them in the 1997 General Election Blair would not have had quite such a large majority. If you are serious about Europe it is far better to make sure we have a Tory Government. UKIP should consider carefully which seats - if any - to fight next year.

Price Sinclair

Verity
He fought an election on that "silly statement" and there is no evidence to say that he has changed his mind

TGF UKIP

Tom Pride, you could have added to the very difficult circumstances in which Hague fought the 2001 GE (and Howard fought the 2005) the constant undermining of the Tory platform during the campaign by the Tory Left. The largely anonymous sniping briefings were incessant and made full use of By Labour and especially by their friends on the Today Programme.

Rhoda Klapp

"Voting UKIP in June is a waste of a vote."

Well, as we are electing members of an amlost* powerless talking shop, every vote is wasted. It's a mockery of democracy.

* It does give the power to rubbish Gordon Bowon for three minutes without interruption to those who would take it.

TGF UKIP

Hague's piece of euro bullshit together with their crappy poster are plainly aimed at conning people to believe that the Cameron Tories can be trusted to be robustly eurosceptic in the hope that leakage to UKIP will be minimized.

However, I would make a counterpoint and suggest a vote for UKIP in June will be the best way for Tory eurosceptics to hold Dave's feet to the fire.

In 2005 UKIP was credited with denying the Tories victory in a significant number of seats (28 is the figure I've seen most often estimated) so in 2010 Dave and the clique are going to be very apprehensive over a recurrence.

Can I suggest, therefore, that a large vote for UKIP in June will do more than anything else to stiffen their sinews on Europe with an unambiguous 2010 manifesto promise for a referendum to prevent a repetition of their losses in 2005.

Meanwhile, I greatly look forward to Marr, Humphrys, Paxman etc remorselessly grilling Hague, Dave and the rest of them on the piece of specious nonsense above.

Verity

Well, it's pretty obvious why. Had he said anything stronger, the Blairites would have gone into a "little Englander!!!!" feeding frenzy. Alastair Campbell is nothing if not a vicious bully.

teledu

AndyLeeds:"Voting UKIP in June is a waste of a vote. If many people had not voted from them in the 1997 General Election Blair would not have had quite such a large majority."
Er don't think so Andy. The UKIP vote in 1997 was not that large surely! Blair would still have won by a landslide. And remember, General Election is "first past the post". The Euro elections in June are based on a Proportional Representation system.
By voting UKIP and not tory in JUNE (the PR system), you may just give Cameron enough food for thought to make him take a more UKIP'ish line come the General Election: if he does - THEN vote tory. Get the anti-EU message across to the conservaitves in JUNE; if they get the message, back Cameron in the GE.
I've yet to be convinced that the tory leadership know how deep the resentment is towards the EU amongst rank-and-file Brits of all political persuasions. Let them know in June; vote UKIP

Josh O'Nyons

Vote UKIP IN JUNE . If UKIP beat Labour Gordon Brown WILL GO !

Verity

I don't want him to go! There is no one to take his place just now!

Europhile David Cameron is currently occupied with digging himself deeper into the non-popularity pit with quotas of women in Parliament. Like his A list. Another trick.

Won't anyone in the Tory party let this man know that he will not be voted in in a million years?

jane

Politicians? Promises? Consequences of reneging on promises???? Most of those commenting still seem to believe in the tooth fairy ....... or forget the accumulated facts, acts and rhetoric that have landed us where we are now, so desperate to believe in the integrity of even one of our leaders, we cling like the shipwrecked electorate we are to the tiniest of life-rafts.

robin winston-smythe

Anyone conned by oily dave camoron and his pals,desrves everything they get. firstly,not all ukip members are ex-tories,i voted labour until 1986, secondly UKIP does have other policies apart from ''leave the eu''
inheritance tax rise which the new liebour,the tories pinched.
.flat tax,no tax on first 12,000 pounds
. adopt proportional representation for westminster elections. etc....
the reason fascist bnp will do well in nwest is because of the failure of lib-lab-con-greens to limit immigration from eastern-yerop
i am quietly confident the london luvvie media writing ukip off,one has us losing all 9 seats,as eating humble pie come june 6 D-Day
any democrat should hope ukip does gain seats,
helmer and tory meps vote for more integrated eu in brussels.