Tory backbenchers in deep water

Prodicus

Immoral and repellent.

Cameron must withdraw the whip from some of these 1922 recidivists. He has never been more powerful than he is today: they will hear the party faithful cheering as far away as Mongolia, if he cares to wield an big axe on behalf of morality and on behalf of party workers like me, who are bitterly ashamed and ******* well outraged.

It's the presumptuous old guard. They have to go. We don't need them. We need their absence. New blood. A transfusion. There are plenty of good candidates waiting for the chance to do better, in a new regime.

Go to it, Mr Cameron.

AlexH

The Davis one is bad because he's at least as recognisable as Blears.

As for

'without providing David Cameron with a case where he can expel an MP from the party without suffering the call to remove several others on the same grounds.'

Who cares? If they all have to be removed on the same grounds let it be so. At least someone would be showing some backbone.

Will Yoxall

I think perhaps the only thing to do would be to have everyone pay everything back. Then perhaps a line might be drawn under this.

No party could sack so many of its members yet so many members would appear to be guilty.

Cut things back to a simple London home allowance (your "second home" automatically being your London residence) and a travel allowance. Staff should be paid centrally, action must be swift, this cannot be allowed to fester any longer - news coverage and public attitudes concerning poltics has become to much about MPs and how awful they are rather than about the relative merits of particular policies - this has to change.

Tomas

Sordid, sickening a disgrace. They should without reservation resign and if not they should be fired. Have they no shame these so called honorable gentlemen. We have had to listen to their pontifications, and all the while they have been on the fiddle and playing us for the fool. Behaviour one expects from the worst of corrupt 3rd world countries - well done the UK has indeed reached the bottom.

Denise Mcellin

This is worse than the Labour revelations because of the largesse and the reminder of how rich many in the Tory party are. The numbers being banded about are staggering. The constant references to multi multi millionaires and multi multi million pound properties. 90%+ people in this country are so far removed from the kind of lives and wealth of people in the Conservative party. This is going to be very damaging to us because it reinforces all the negatiivty and it doesn't need Labour to scream Tory Toffs.

Disgusted

How can the Tories impose an 'age of austerity' on normal hard working people when they quite clearly have never and will never experience austerity?

Labour and PROUD

You've just lost the next election guys!

HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA!

Verity

David Cameron was the wrong, wrong, wrong choice for Leader. He may be a mildly amiable man, but he's a social democrat lefty.

As opposed to most of the Conservative Party, which is robustly on the right.

He has no credence outside his little London loop.

He sacked an honourable military man to big himself up. Thereby demonstrating that he is tone-deaf beyond the drawing rooms of Islington or wherever they have earth-saving windmills on their roofs.

No one liked him for that, except the left, and they already have formal representation.

He introduced a Fascist A-List for Conservatives wishing to stand for Parliament. A centrally-approved "A LIST"????? For people wishing to put themselves forward to the voters?

What about the associations? David Cameron is suddenly their boss?

He is tone-deaf. He is a no-hoper. He is in the wrong slot. He is not one of us. This is a dead ... oh, wait a minute!

Julie Simmons

I work in a hospital, full time as a health care assistant and earn £16932 per year. That is BEFORE tax. I live in the Colne Valley, a marginal constituency and I'd love David Cameron to explain to me why I should vote Tory. And I would him to justify very very wealthy Conservatives fleecing the taxpayer when the can afford not to.

ChrisD

Oh for heavens sake, they are as bad as each other!

Oh, Labour MP claims the limit on home improvements on his flat - Tory MP spends it on his pool or garden!

Its all the same to me, its taxpayers money, whether its paying for porn, dog food, nappies or tampons. A pushchair here, a Christmas tree there.

Should I be grateful when an MP representing the workers claims for more goods than will fit into the property?

Or what about a pipe under a tennis court vs an item claimed for one address, and then delivered hundred miles away at another?
Is it worse when one party MP expands their property portfolio than an other?

What about Darling and his flipping, and so many homes to chose from? Or Moran with a 22 grand dry rot bill for a property no where near Westminster or her constituency? Does that pale into insignificance for the two grand of pipe repairs under some one's tennis court?

Its about as bad as it gets for everyone involved from where I am sitting.

Which leader would you bet on, when it comes to having the ruthless backbone and support of his grass roots to sort this mess out?

Why oh Why???

If Labour takes Polly Toynbee advice and ditches Brown for Johnson, we are going to be in serious trouble. In that situation I don't think we can win the next general election. A working class man orphaned, raised by his older sister in poverty, made good, who by the way has not been abusing taxpayers via MP's expenses. Verses a rich privelledged elite, it's a no brainer. We wouldn't have a chance of forming the next Government.

Danielle, London

James, did you know that poll was actually taken BEFORE the Telegraph revealed any information on Tories and their expenses.

rhys burriss

Not 'in deep water' - shits of a high water.
Every single one of them. Cameron has floated on privilege all his life. How can he possibly discipline his Bullingonian mates?

mitch

This "theft" from our wallets is a step too far. Let one of these bas####s knock my door after a vote best they bring the police with them they are going to need them.
We need a box to tick for "non of the above"

Ronnie

Oh dear, this does rather make them seem like a bunch of toffs doesn't it. New porticos, moats, hedge-cutting at the helipad, the Marquis of Lothian don't you know...

All within the rules old boy.

Vulture

Dave's in a dilemma. As these claims were all, as the troughers parrot 'within the rules' he can't discipline the grandees without disciplinging half the shadow cabinet. And he can't do that because the untainted talent on the Tory benches is too thin. he should bite the bullet and force them ALL to pay back their ill-gotten gains on pain of losing the Whip. That would give the Tories an immense moral advantage over Liebour. But he won't. Bang goes the Tory lead over Liebour. The BNP will profit from this disaster.

Simon Denis

Quite - the polls are going south as many of us knew they would. That means the risk grows of more profligacy and stupidity from Brown. Is that what we want? What does the Telegraph imagine that it is up to? It is time the loyal readership said something. We have been soundly conservative for decades and now our paper of choice is betraying our political and national interest. The only thing which keeps me buying this fallen rag is the fact that the others are worse - pompous Times, bone heads' Mail and Express, Prig's Guardian and Pseud's Independent. Where, oh where is the wise and canny Telegraph of yore?

Tiberius

Ben Brogan on Sky News last night seemed to be saying that the LibDems have reason to be afraid too.

David Davis - if he were leader or still in the Shadow Cabinet, there really would be trouble for the Tories. This news will take the wind out of the sails of two people I can think of...

Denis Cooper

Surprised that any MP felt the need to claim for horse manure, when he could have collected it for free from the floor of the chamber ...

Rush-is-Right

"David Cameron.. (cannot).. expel an MP from the party without suffering the call to remove several others on the same grounds."

Well that's just tough. If it means sacking 50 MPs then that's what he must do.

Sally Chatterjee

The "helipad" might be a family joke but getting your garden done, or your piano tuned, is not.

What on earth were these guys doing? How could any of these expense claims ever have been thought to assist them in their parliamentary duties?

Each MP listed above seems to have made deep errors of judgment. How can we hold them to account? I'm beginning to think merely returning the money is not enough, that this is bordering on a heist, that we have an elected class of gangsters.

Andrew

I'm reminded of the Tangentopoli scandals in Italy in the 1990's, when the "Clean hands" campaigners effectively purged the entire class of political professionals and whole parties were dismantled.

That the outcome of this era was the lamentable Burlesquecrony is hardly encouraging, but the prospect of a Bonfire of the Bedblockers still has a certain attraction.

(and such a shame that David Davis quit, depriving Cameron of a scalp just when he needs one...)

Nick

There's a simple solution for David Cameron. He can say that any claim not wholly and exclusively necessary for the conduct of the MP's job should be repaid within the next three months.

There will be an amnesty until then but afterwards any MP lays himself open for demotion or deselection on acount of his expense claims

Mark

Good lord, listen to some of the hysteria on here
, poorly disguised Labour trolls aside. Yup, this expenses shame is awful but the News 24 style outpourings are sad symptoms of our time. Also interesting to see the old Tory types come out to bash Cameron. Hmm let's go back to the election winning ways of the last 10 years. I think not.

strapworld

There should be no problem for Cameron.
He has to, simply, SACK every one of them.

The public will not have any respect for a cabinet which contains people who have 'stolen' from the taxpayers.

We are talking educated adults here! Not young 'I was led' juveniles.

They knew what they were doing. Cameron cannot choose this one and not that one.

He must show the public he has cleaned the stables and sack each and every one of them, starting with Osborne.

TrevorsDen

Oh do shut up Verity - who would have been better - expenses claiming David Davis? The Tories should be told to pay back their sillier claims.

The problem for all MPs is the trailers of the stories are getting on the evening news but the actual truth - like Gove - turns out to be a bit different (Willets as well).
Even Brown paying his brother for cleaning is given a plausinble excuse later (though I still think it stinks). The 'moat' was not cleaned and there was no 'helipad'.

L & P is getting far too ahead of himself - has he forgotten Brown himself 'flipping his own house just before becoming leader ?? I am not sure behaving like J.Smith is a good example.

The Telegraph is stirring up a good tabloid scandal - the way the story is being eeked out is not what I would call good broadsheet journalism and party leaders cannot do anything until all figures are published.
It seems to have learned a lot from Guido.
Behind all the sound and fury I do not see many Tories being as fraudulent as several Labour members or indeed the PM himself. Lets be clear - once he got his grace and favour nr 10 he flipped his flat for his house in Scotland and is running that at taxpayer expense. Given the PM himself has done this - with the BBC and Telegraph drawing a respectful veil over it - well it is going to be hard for him to publicly discipline his own cabinet.

'And finally' - "On first read, it is difficult if not impossible to see how these claims can be justified. "
Precisely - so why did the fees office allow them?
There are two classes of problem here
One where the declaration of status is fraudulent - like Smith and the other (possibly related) where the actual claim is not allowable. Putting in a claim is not a demand its a claim. 'I was only following orders' is not a defence but a claim is just that - it can always be rejected.
MPs have been pathetic - but that does not stop the system being more than complicit.

Ken

Shop Steward Michael Martin, a Glaswegian bullyboy imposed by Liebour as "Speaker", must go now.

He has made the House of Commons an MPs trade union, more interested in fighting for tax free perks and chaffeur driven Jags than holding government to account.

He has undermined the Westminister system of government.

He is an utter disgrace to British parliamentary democracy.

The focus now must be on removing him without delay.

His expenses should be referred for a police fraud inquiry, along of course with those of all the trade unionists (ie MPs) on both sides of the house who have uncritically troughed along with him.

Michael Booth

The point is not whether it is more 'acceptable' or 'understandable' that a Labour MP makes the sort of claims we have seen or whether a Tory is less so - the point is what has been going on is totally unacceptable to the taxpaying electorate. The comment about free horsemanure from the floor of the House is appropriate - we need a complete clearing out of this Augean Stable at the heart of our democracy (I use the word ironically) and a fresh new start. I'd begin with removing the Speaker.

Ben Elford

Certainly, Cameron can make it a requirement that anyone having made an unjustified claim repay the money within a specified period. He can sack (or withdraw the whip from) anyone who complains about this.

But he can also take this opportunity to get rid of a few of the worst examples now. It's going to be impossible to show that he's consistent in this, but at least he can show some courage (as opposed to do-nothing Brown) and he can encourage the others.

wonderfulforhisage

I'd like to imagine that were I in their shoes I'd have behaved honourably. But if I'm honest (and I am aren't I??) I know that I'd have been there troughing with the best of them.

Let him without a dodgy expense claim to his credit cast the first stone.

An amnesty is called for and a new system, designed by those MPs who have shown themselves to be 'honourable', put in place. Perhaps the system could be known as the Skinner Rules. I disagree with pretty well everything Dennis Skinner stands for and admire and respect him for his integrity.

boulay

i am rather proud of the boys - better class of expense claims i feel!

seriously though i still think the expenses issue is more damaging for labour - in most peoples' subconscious the tories always have an element of either sleeziness or patrician wealth so not totally unexpected whereas "whiter than white" labour, supporter of the working class and governers of the country over the last years have avoided taxes, grafted etc whilst bringing in the most draconian laws to prevent the population from doing the same.

Mike, Brighton

This is a significant test for Cameron. He needs to sack each and every MP that has fleeced the taxpayer. If not then it just looks appalling and many many people will ask why they should vote Tory.

John Lea

I thought David Davis should have succeeded Howard, not Cameron. he seemed to me a more traditional Tory. Now I see his name on the list above, I feel there's no one in the Tory party I would vote for. Not one.

Julie Simmons - disgraceful that you get paid so little for a front-line caring job. When I think that Francis Fraude - sorry, Maude - claimed double your salary in order to pay off his mortgage, it makes me very angry.

Boudicca

MPs on both sides (yet to hear about the LibDems) have behaved disgracefully.

Cameron now has an opportunity to clear out the Old Guard 'Squire-ocracy' and he should seize it with both hands.

Gordon Brown daren't clear out the cabinet, other than a couple of fall-guys (Smith and Blears); he has no-one of any stature to take their place and will have to look for people untainted by the expenses scandal.

Go for it Cameron: if they won't pay back the money and resign, sack them. Nothing else is going to convince the country that the Tories REALLY have changed and represent 'ordinary' voters.

Don

Julie, perhaps you could ask your question "And I would him to justify very very wealthy Conservatives fleecing the taxpayer when the can afford not to." Of the people who have been in charge for 12 years. You know the ones who have become millionares on the back of being in power. Mcnulty, Brown, Blair, Blunkett, Woodward, Davies, you know those ones. Your obvious bias is showing dear. They ALL need to be exposed to the sunlight. The simplest solution is the one Cameron is suggesting. All claims published on the web within one month. No need for a comittee of overpaid people deciding what is right or wrong in private. If we can see what they claim they will think long and hard before claiming it.

Publius

Verity. Are these abuses from the "social democratic left"?

Who is the "real Tory" who will win the election and get rid of Brown, in your view?

Forlornehope

"Be bloody, bold and resolute"

Publius

Mark. You are absolutely right on the self-feeding News24 effect. The politicians lose objectivity, and so do the frenzied journos who hang around them.

John Page

Let's not lose sight of the fact that David Cameron, rich toff of this parish, claimed £19,626 in second home allowance, including interest on a mortgage which he doubtless didn't need.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/8044207.stm

In one day today's news undoes Cameron's efforts to make his party look modern and electable.

What moral authority would the Tories have now for a hairshirt policy on tax and spend? Expect to hear a lot about this from Brown.

It's not even as if Arbuthnot is any good - http://eureferendum.blogspot.com/2009/05/deepest-darkest-hatred.html

But to get that select committee position he must have had the approval of the Tory whips.

Goodness alone knows why such rich men felt morally entitled to sponge off taxpayers, most of them far poorer. Even the pictures of their houses tell their own story.

Politically Cameron needs to withdraw the whip from a significant number of them if he is to keep any credibility in the country.

Brown will be laughing.

John Page

strapworld, just seen your comment.

Yes, why did rich Osborne think it remotely acceptable to get taxpayers to fork out for a chauffeur?

His condescending assumption is breathtaking. And this is the man to convince us we need spending cuts?

Oh please.

Hayward Maberley

Hubris, Hypocrisy and Pleonexia. The Born to Rule Party has it all. They all will be unable to even think of throwing political or other stones as it will lead to severe damage of their their own ConservaTory.
Most of them it appears whether wearing blue or red rosettes are Gadarene Swine in their rush to the trough. Let most of them, figuratively, go over the cliff at the next election.
The new lot should be charged to unite at the first sitting and garnish the pensions being paid to the those swine that lost their seats. Sufficient to pay back all those "expenses" plus interest and where possible penalties. But the aforementioned would probably be airborne before that would happen.
Hang together or we will hang separately that seems to be their creed.

carol

Verity - You have often sung the praises of David Davis..he is one of the offenders here, according to the Telegraph. Do you think he should be leader, or on the front bench? I think he should be deselected and OUT>

wonderfulforhisage

Publius 9:31

I've said it before:-

at 7:16am
http://iaindale.blogspot.com/2007/04/libdems-delay-mayoral-selection.html#c3010807922455342288

And I'll say it again:-

Boris would walk it.

And one more time:-

Boris would walk it.

And what I tell you three times is true.

Hat Tip; The Bellman.

Simon Denis

And Brown's laughter is Britain's doom. I ask again, who is in charge at the Telegraph? Socialists? Or milk-sop centrists? Certainly not conservatives. Let other papers expose the Tories; you can be sure they would if they could. In the second place, to rubbish the general reputation of Westminster will only - can only - benefit the protest vote buckets - useless outfits like the greens or the BNP. Is this "ethical"? Better to have kept quiet about the lot and allow for a seemly, modest Tory victory. Now that profligate brass necked moron Brown will be in with a chance again. I think I'll stop paying for the Telegraph, having no wish fund my opponents.

Graeme Stewart

Re David Davis, I too was disappointed until I read the details in the Telegraph. It appears that while there is definite troughing going on, the Telegraph is also employing tabloid tactics for headlines.
Personally, building up a £1.5M property portfolio(Hoon and Darling) on the allowances is downright fraud. Claiming for manure is sign of a small and grasping personality. Wouldn't vote for either MP.

not so 2trueblue anymore

The Telegraph has been anti-Cameron and the tories for some years. This is the paper that wrote of Brown in glowing terms during his first years.

All MPs who have parrotted 'the system is at fault' are dishonest, not the system. They all turned up to vote against the private members bill to 'allow' the public access to their expense details, and no wonder.
I would like the Telegraph to print all of the remaining details. We can then look at it all in detail without sensationalising it. Comparing like for like would be fairer.
The shift in style for the telegraph is not neccessarily a good one, and may reduce it in value.

JohnAnt

Nothing will change, much. MPs in safe seats can get away with murder. That's not justice, it's electoral dictatorship.

David Bouvier

John Page - what is wrong with claiming for a car to drive you somewhere assuming it was necessary parliamentary business.

Would you feel happier if I called it a "minicab". They are all private hire vehicles. I imagine George's usual personal provider is one of the better firms that charges a bit more for a decent car and competent driver. How old and rusty must the car be before you are OK with it?

There can be differing opinions on reasonable travel choices; there is nothing venal here - at worst a slight lack of cost consciousness - but that is a matter of degree and opinion.

There is no comparison between this and the Moran / Conway /Blears games.

I am getting fed up with the Puritan prurience - chippiness really - which provides smoke and cover for the real troughers.

Dorothy Wilson

Denise Mcellin: No it isn't worse than NuLabour. They, after all, are supposed to be the members of the party that represents the interests of ordinary working people. Hypocrits comes to mind.

Why oh Why??? Well, apparently, at a meeting of the Parliamentary party last night Brown was given a standing ovation.

David Bouvier

One lesson is - don't trust what the Telegraph is saying.

E.g. "David Heathcoat-Amory claimed for more than £380 of horse manure for his garden."

but link to a receipt for 25 hours of garden work at £10/hour + £10 for manure.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/mps-expenses/5309479/MPs-expenses-David-Heathcoat-Amorys-claim-for-manure.html

You may or may not believe garden work on a second home is a legitimate expense, but the story is not supported by the evidence they provide.

Something (else) stinks.

And don't forget, in calling for sackings, Cameron may not have full reliable information at this point - and must not rely on the selective and slanted picture the Telegraph chooses to publish.

Lost in Europe

I don't necessarily think we've got all the facts, but, having worked at the European Parliament, these sorts of revelations are not coming as any huge surprise, either.

There's a culture amongst the old boys - many of whom have had successful careers in business and are just doing a few years in parliament for the heck of it, it seems - that the expenses are there to be milked for all they are worth. As is the daily allowance.

I and the other assistants have long been talking about how hypocritical it is to be telling constituents that "we work for them" whilst racking up everything possible to expenses because it's "within the rules". I'm perfectly aware that it isn't morally acceptable, so why aren't they? Because they come from another era, that's why, when the people in power were practically expected to take advantage of their positions at the expense of the proles. And that goes across the parties.

Time to weed this lot out and get some fresh blood in.

Judy

Simple, really. The onus is on each MP to explain how each claimed item is used "wholly, necessarily and exclusively" for the conduct of his/her role as an MP. Anything else to be repaid within three months. Profits from sale of homes enhanced by works paid for by the Additional Costs Allowance are treated as taxable under Capital Gains provisions.

I'd like to see the claims for moat clearance, chandeliers, eyeliners, porch replacements, multiple and double house claims for third and shared houses get by under those rules.

Any evidence of fraudulent claims to be sent to the Crown Prosecution Service regardless of the status of the MP or Lord.

Any MPs who fail to comply to have whip removed and recommended for deselection.
Any Lords who fail to comply to have whip removed and to be expelled from their party.

Verity

Trevorsden refers to "the way the story is being eeked out ...". Is that because everyone in Westminster and the Beeb is going "Eek!!"?

Verity

Why Oh Why - "We wouldn't stand a chance of forming the next government."

Precisely!

I don't want us to form the next government under social democrat, who is not sound on the EUSSR, David Cameron. I don't want him getting his feet snugly under the desk at No 10.

Labour will turn out to vote for Alan Johnson. And he appeals to women, who will also turn up at the polling station. And then we can begin to turn our fortunes around.

I do not believe Alan Johnson has the mental capacity to be the PM (and no, neither does Gordon Brown, but no one elected him PM) and I think the Tories, under a new Leader, will be able to table, and win, a vote of No Confidence in 18 months or two years.

We will win the next GE under this new Leader, and we'll be in office for at least 20 years. In fact, the socialists, as they now exist, will probably be squeezed out of existence by the other parties.

Verity

Publius - John Redwood. He's also the cleverest.