Poll suggests that BNP success was due to Labour failure

David

Hmm. FPTP encourages parties to coalesce around the centre to win. If the electorate are really having difficulty distinguishing between the main parties and prefer to vote on the fringe because of it, then maybe PR is needed after all to combat that.

(I appreciate that this is a PR election, but the policies are determined by paties for whom real success comes under FPTP)

Rhoda Klapp

You need YouGov to tell you this? You could have read it here a long while ago.

Incidentally, the same thing could be applied to the Tories vs UKIP. Time for the parties to stop telling us what we think and actually try to find out. Of course that applies to the media also.

Wily Trout

I don't think Labour are going to have much success reconnecting with ordinary people when they tell us again and again that 'what the people want' is for Gordon to remain as PM and tackle the 'global recession'. Every time they say that they make things look even worse. And they're still saying it. Hattie Harman's just said it again. Broon saying at his presscon on Thursday that public spending will continue to rise under him didn't exactly help either.

George Laird

Dear All

In Glasgow the BNP won 3,000 votes last night.

I never thought that so many of the voters of my home city would be taken in by such a dispicable group of people.

I hope they reflect on that decision in future.

Now the BNP have two seats in Brussels we can all thank that stoic Scotsman Gordon Brown of the Labour Party, for letting them in.

When Brown said he was 'getting on with the job' it wasn't supposed to be part time de facto campaign manager for the BNP.

Why doesn't he just go?

Yours sincerely

George Laird
The Campaign for Human Rights at Glasgow University

Verity

The view from the bottom of the well, or why Pete has to get over the notion that Nick Griffin in "a monster".

Gordon Brown is a monster and a dangerous one at that.

Peter Mandelson is a monster and a dangerous one at that.

Glenys Kinnock is a greedy monster.

Jack Straw is a monster and a dangerous one at that.

"Lord" Ahmad is a monster.

Inyat Bungalawala is a monster.

These people have wrought real harm on our democracy.

Nick Griffith heads a party you don't approve of.

Pete Hoskin

Rhoda Klapp: "You need YouGov to tell you this? You could have read it here a long while ago."

The point is that these numbers seem to confirm the hypothesis. Surely, that's a useful thing?

Stepney

The horror at the BNP gaining seats is genuine but masks a level of expectation that should leave no-one, least of all Labour, surprised.

Recipe for extremism:

Take a large chunk of disenfranchised white working class. Put to one side and ignore for a decade. Whilst it is heating up, liberally sprinkle considerable amounts of political correctness and whip up the perception that you are spending more on "newcomers" than on an indigenous population.

Don't mention anything to do with immigration. Put your head in the sand. Don't listen to the concerns of your natural voters in case you might be seen as racist. Fob them off with Labourspeak.

Reduce the opportunity for initiative and self-improvement in working communities. Increase the amount of hand-wringing, middle-class, sandal wearing social engineers.

Increase the level of tax, both local and national, on your chunk of working class. Make it punitive.

Waste those taxes on things which don't matter and which don't affect the working class taxpayer - then make it obvious you've been spending the money on your own mortgages and freebies.

Casually write a cheque for £41,000 and look confused when people get angry.

Take a large step back and say:
"This is terrible - how did we let this happen?"

If you play with matches and petrol you have
no-one to blame but yourself if you get burnt.

Vulture

Peter - why are using weasel Liebour phrases like 'reconnecting with the voters'? To stop the BNP the Tories merely have to meet the concerns that have caused the BNP to gain votes: ie. to stop ( if its not already too late) the Islamification of Britain; and the mass immigration flood.

David

No, Verity. Nick Griffin is a monster. A holocaust denier, an anti-Semite, a racist who judges people as worth by thecolour of their skin, who re-writes history to ensure it meets his white only fantasies. There are few in politics worthy of being called am monster.He is one.

C Powell

Pete: if any of you journalists had gone out and listened to people of all classes, in all regions, up and down the country you'd have realised this. You don't need a poll to tell you what's obvious to anyone with eyes and ears and the ability to shut up and listen instead of pontificating to the rest of us about what we "really" think or what we "ought" to think. Indeed, stop pontificating about what's going on in the Westminster village all the time. People were blown to bits in London nearly 4 years ago as a direct consequence of Labour's failed policy of multiculturalism and open borders. That's the salient fact which has transformed the debate amongst us plebs. One day perhaps the rest of you will realise this and join in before you're utterly ignored. When Griffin talks about "radical and aggressive Islam" he's the only person in public life - alas - who talks about what a lot of us are concerned about. Meanwhile Labour are busy trying to find a way to make the MCB more acceptable to them so that they can go back to receiving our money (why?) and Cameron - apart from making one (good) speech on the subject - has said nothing. So even if the Tories win do I have any hope that they will do anything to restore our freedoms, restore our liberal democracy, fight back against religiously-inspired fascism? What's the answer, Pete? Another poll?

The Bellman

Is there not now some reason to question the assumption that Brown Labour deserve to be included as 'one of the main parties'?

Now they're being 'led' by a delusional, bullying psychopath who extorts loyalty oaths on pain of dismissal, isn't there good reason to describe Labour as a 'fringe party'?

Tim B

Read their manifesto - the BNP are classic 'old labour' with the anti-immigration add-on.

Of course they do well in Labour strongholds, because labour has mis-read badly how many people feel about unfettered immigration and what they feel it is doing to their country.

The BNPs success is due in large part to labour's failure to understand the concerns of its base vote.

David Ossitt

What Verity said 100%.

Peter Hoskin heads this article with.

"Poll suggests that BNP success was due to Labour failure"

He and the poll are spot on; but do not specify what failure.

I would suggest that failing to keep the manifesto promise of a referenda on the Lisbon Treaty is at the heart of this.

To make a promise; and then to break that promise with weasel words and excuses, tells us just what kind of people are in government, liars, cheats, swindlers, low life scum.

David Cameron should pay close attention; because there is a majority in our country 'England' who think we have gone too far with Europe.

If he does not listen; he too will be punished, the English people will eventually be heard.

Verity

David, I don't know much about Nick Griffin as I don't live in Britain, but he has done no harm.

Tony Blair, Gordon Brown, Peter Mandelson, Harriet Harman, Jacqui Smith, Jack Straw and that whole roiling NuLabour coven have done incalculable damage to our formerly cohesive and familial society and they have wrecked lives. They have wrecked the escape route of the poor and disadvantaged, education, with malice, to render them more malleable. They are unspeakably evil.

David Ossitt

Dear David.

Nick Griffin is a man who has views that differ from yours.

You are too quick to call him nasty names and make dreadful accusations.

If you truly believe in the right of free speech, then it must be for everyone, not just for those who believe the same as you.

David

"to stop ( if its not already too late) the Islamification of Britain"

We've had more Jews in the country without it being "Jewified", and we've had plenty of Sikhs and Hindus too. There is no Islamification, other than treating muslims with the same decency everyone deserves.

Pete Hoskin

C Powell: that's unfair. Of course I don't think polls are the be-all-and-end-all. Of course I don't think that they offer some kind of solution. You're reading far too much in to things: all I'm doing is reporting a poll which, alongside word-of-mouth evidence, seems to confirm the long-standing hypothesis that the BNP are gaining because of Labour's failing.

This is a political blog, and I'd have thought that kind of thing would be interesting for political anoraks. I certainly found it good to have some numbers on the situation, and not because I'm stuck in some ivory tower - and not because I didn't "realise" anything - but because it's good to have on the record.

Besides, if we really want to be reductive then it can get a bit silly: after all, it was obvious that Labour would get heavily defeated last night, so why mention the election results at all?

Oscar

The problem with this type of poll is that noone is ever going to admit to being a racist when questioned by a pollster.

Kildar

The Spectator’s articles about the BNP always ignore the elephant in the room, muslim immigration into the UK and the Labour party’s elevation of muslims over other citizens. The entire political apparatus is determined to deny the British people a legitimate conversation about this subject.

The Spectator then makes a fool of itself by assuming that it is “better and cleverer” than the majority English population and that they should just understand that the destruction of English culture and patriotism is good for them and they (the English) should just swallow it, there is no other answer. White working class communities have been devastated by multiculturalism and are now in revolt against it. As no one will listen to them, they turn to the BNP.

By condemning the BNP without addressing the immigration question the Spectator endorses thirty years of socialist multiculturalism. Snobbish articles about how ghastly the BNP are, how they wear their hair short, wear blazers, etc, cut no ice with working people, who witnessed innocent people burnt alive in tube bombings.

Verity’s summary of the relative moral positions of Labour and muslim politicians versus the BNP is shared by a great many people in this country. In recent polls, 80% of English people wanted politicians to address their concerns about immigration. Of course the BNP will continue to gain ground. They are the only party willing to openly discuss the question that the English electorate want resolved. Given the now very visible corruption of the political class this makes the BNP look like the only party telling the truth. This is a dangerous place for England to be, for which politicians and journalists are solely to blame.

If you want this to change, initiate a debate on immigration that takes account of the concerns of ordinary decent people. Do not patronise them. They are not stupid, and by patronising them you only anger them.

As I was about to post this I saw the comment from Stepney above. He has said it better than I could. Thank you, Stepney.

David

"People were blown to bits in London nearly 4 years ago as a direct consequence of Labour's failed policy of multiculturalism and open borders"

That's about as accurate as blaming it on the Iraq War. We've had white terrorists (eg David Copeland, or the white extremists recently arrested with ricin stores) and no one suggests that all white people are at fault.

Liz Elliot-Pyle

David, the thing about the Jews, Hindus etc in this country is that they have never blown any of us up.
Their religion doesnt tell them to kill the infidel. Etc etc.

Henry Rogers

David,

I think you should re-read Verity's post which seems to me to be a better summary of the situation than most journalists are managing.

The people Verity names have done real harm to their country and to their fellow citizens. Their policies have done more to make racial strife likely than anything Griffin et al. have so far done. It is hardly stretching a point to call this downright evil.

Griffin and his party have so far done nothing like so much harm, though they certainly have the potential to do so. They will only realise this potential if mainstream politicians fail to address the grievances voters have.

You may feel Verity is a bit too blunt for comfort but if present policies remains unchanged your present discomfort at being asked to face the unpalatable may in time seem trivial. Hand-wringing is not enough!

sandy

David@4.47 pm

Neither the Jews,Sikhs or Hindus seek to impose their way of life on our country.

It truly astonishes me that you appear unable to see the difference.

C Powell

Pete: forgive my sounding so infuriated. I realise you are doing your job and that, as a result, we have a platform to express our views.

But if I - a middle class voter with a good job (touch wood) in a nice area of the country - am so furious about what's happening and the failure of the political / journalistic establishment to see it, let alone come up with any sort of sensible prescription for it, other than what might be termed the "bleeding obvious", imagine how angry those who are much more directly affected by these things might feel and how that might affect their voting behaviour. It's that failure to think / to connect (in the fashionable phrase) / to use one's imagination coupled with self-righteous handwringing that is so infuriating.

For the record, I work in London, was evacuated from one of the trains behind one of the doomed trains that July morning and have had to live since then - like many many others - with the possibility that some loony tune living in this country might one day blow me up or that one of my teenagers might be blown up when they're out shopping or with their friends. And I damn well don't like it. As I don't like members of our political establishment saying that Sharia law is inevitable - without any of them apparently giving any sort of thought to what sort of world that will create for my daughter to live in.

We've had the Specator's article on the BNP. Why not take my last question and really probe what - if anything - the Tories are going to do about these issues? Not asking some questions and just printing their answers but really putting them on the spot, as they should have been before now on the whole issue of civil liberties (the David Davis agenda) and national identity and what immigration means for a society. To my knowledge only Michael Gove and Paul Goodman have even thought of addressing this in any depth; but the former is dealing with education and the latter's leaving. So who amongst our likely next Government will address seriously and responsibly the issues raised by last night's results and this poll? Because those issues are not going to go away, even if they're ignored.

And @ David: I've no issue whatsoever with treating Muslims with decency. That goes without saying. They should have the same rights as every other British citizen, no less and no more, but they have those rights as individual citizens not as members of some "community". What I do object to, though, is one community being exempt from laws which apply to others (e.g. the laws which mean that Christian bodies may not discriminate against gays do not apparently apply to mosques) or being given special privileges e.g. being able to place restrictions on how the police can carry out investigations by not permitting the use of sniffer dogs or being given benefits for polygamous wives. Or the whole push to make incitement to religious hatred a crime, which was simply an attack on free speech which could only have been pushed through by a political class so ignorant of the fight for free speech over centuries, so fearful of the accusation of giving offence, so unwilling to stand up for British values and so desperate for votes from a minority that it was willing to abandon one of the bedrocks of our society. And it was Labour politicians who were most pusillanimous which is why they are now paying the price.

But is anyone in the Tories now listening?

mick EX-pat

It is time to say goodby to the political partys,it is time for
independents given the chance to form governments,worse than this
bunch they can not be for they
would have could have the best
what we have to choose from,all
applicants would have to travel
through the uk to be choosen by
the people,but only voted in for a for a fixed term. at least we would have people in government who would govern for the people and not for the party aims

Pete Hoskin

C Powell: no worries, and you're right: the main parties, including the Tories, need to be talking about the issues of immigration, Islamic extremism etc. much, much more. Yesterday, we saw one effect of their failure to so, and the potential's there for much worse. As per your suggestion, I will look into it.

Rhoda Klapp

http://www.algeria-watch.org/en/ricin_ring.htm

David, purely as an aside, remember how 'ricin traces' were discovered in muslim hands at a flat in Wood Green in 2003, and turned out to be nothing. Please consider the possibility that this week's ricin is no more real, and that the real story is that the police found zilch. No guns. no bombs, no leaflets, just a jam jar. Of course, any raw red beans from Sainsbury's would have actual ricin, but never mind that. Those 'extremists' are still innocent until proven guilty, no?

James Strong

There is confusion which should not appear here on a reasonably sophisticated site.
Do not conflate religion with race.

I am not a racist.
I deeply loathe Islam.

If you don't understand how those sentences can be simultaneously true then go away, do some research for yourself, and then come back.

Stepney

I agree that the establishment avoids the debate and that fuels the drift to the BNP but let me make this clear. They are an odious bunch of thugs and not very clever with it either.

Democracy is about learning to respect the views of the populus whatever they decide and the people have spoken. Not very loudly in the case of the BNP as it happens thank God but loud enough so that the political establishment needs to address the issues rather than fan the flames.

Alf Tupper

Peter.

Labour have not failed. They have been extremely successful in their project to bury the British people under a wave of immigration.

This is not a Brown thing but a party-wide movement which will be carried on with or without him.

Nor is this something which might be curtailed when Labour lose power. The civil service, the media and the Brussels machine, will keep on churning and grinding towards the same end. The Tories will do nothing to stand in its way.

David.

"We've had more Jews in the country without it being "Jewified", and we've had plenty of Sikhs and Hindus too."

So why don't I feel threatened by these groups? Or is it because I'm an Islamophobe?

FF

"Poll suggests that BNP success was due to Labour failure"

This statement is illogical. Labour are responsible for their own failings - so people are turning away from them and towards other parties.

That they turn to the BNP instead of the Conservatives, Liberals and other respectable parties can hardly be held against Labour. If anything those parties are more at fault - they rate even lower than Labour or the BNP to these people

David

"Or the whole push to make incitement to religious hatred a crime, which was simply an attack on free speech"

Like blasphemy laws?

"You may feel Verity is a bit too blunt for comfort"

No, I feel that it is perfectly possible to be angry at, say Jack Straw, and also be angry at violent thugs like the BNP. Verity on the other hand consistently makes excuses for them.

"As I don't like members of our political establishment saying that Sharia law is inevitable - without any of them apparently giving any sort of thought to what sort of world that will create for my daughter to live in."

The exact same as now, when Beth Din law is used. But only to those communities who subscribe to it.

"For the record, I work in London, was evacuated from one of the trains behind one of the doomed trains that July morning and have had to live since then - like many many others - with the possibility that some loony tune living in this country might one day blow me up or that one of my teenagers might be blown up when they're out shopping or with their friends."

For the record, I went to school in central London and had to have bomb drills thanks to the IRA. I don't think all Irish people want to kill me. For the record, I have friends affected by the Copeland bombing. None of them think all straight white men want to kill them.

Verity

Kildar - "This is a dangerous place for England to be, for which politicians and journalists are solely to blame."

Correct.

Sam

On the birght side, given the freedom to choose 93.8% of the British electorate that chose to vote in the recent European electrions did not vote BNP. The British people spoke. :)

MrJones

Gramsci said communism couldn't triumph in Europe without the prior destruction of national identity. Since the war the national identity of the historic European nations has been slowly, systematically and deliberately destroyed using mass immigration and multi-culturalism.

The true monsters are the treachourous marxists responsible for this.

C Powell

@David: I'm curious. Which school in Central London did you have these bomb drills at. Because I too went to school in London too during the IRA campaign and I don't recall such bomb drills. Nor do I recall the IRA ever targeting - or saying that they were going to target schools - though their behaviour was quite disgusting enough as it was.

Look at the blasphemy laws: they are very different to the law which Labour tried to introduce let alone the watered down version which was introduced. The blasphemy laws have not had the same chilling effect. Nor have we had groups of Christians threatening to, say, behead their local mullah (as some Muslims did re the Pope outside Westminster Cathedral). But in any case the blasphemy laws are a historical legacy based on the fact that for the best part of 2000 years Christianity (not other religions such as Islam or Hinduism) has been at the root of our society and culture. Given that the right to free speech had to be fought for against the established Church and the authorities, it seems curious that those "progressives" who are normally so quick to diss anything to do with organised religion were so eager to comply with such a law to suit one particular minority, especially when some members of that community had explicitly threatened violence against those whose views they did not like (Rushdie fatwa anyone?).

Orthodox Jewish views on divorce do not affect the wider community and such courts are subject to UK law, as I understand it. Sharia law - which has been declared by the European Court on Human Rights to be incompatible with Western democracy and values - does have such an impact, IMO. It devalues Muslim women who are - like me - British citizens. It gives them fewer rights than other British women, purely on the basis of their religion. It perpetuates the deeply misogynistic views of women which appear to be so prevalent in Muslim society, with consequent baleful effects on Muslim women and, indeed, Muslim men and their ability to live happily in a country where we expect women - all women, regardless of their religion - to play a full part in our society.

I have nowhere said - nor do I believe - that all Muslims are out to kill me but I do think that there is a real issue with having a significant religious minority living in our country where a significant proportion (how significant who can say?) of that minority refuses to integrate in any meaningful way with Western society and is prey to a hateful, fascistic and murderous ideology which has at least part of its roots in that community's religion and which may be exacerbated by the culture of the countries from which this community has emigrated. This needs to be addressed not those who raise this issue dismissed.

As for Copeland, he was a murdering disgrace but he was a loner. Indeed the gay community which he targeted would be one of those most harmed by the rise of Islamist ideology and the social and cultural values it embodies.

Wrinklybutnice

I want to thank Stepney, Kildar and C Powell for their courageous and honest analyses. This is what we should have been debating in Parliament. Except these days, there is no debate, there is no scrutiny, no place for the independent thinker. What now is Parliament actually for ?(Don't forget, it costs a bomb, even before the secret cheating expenses!)
This nonsense about expenses being the key issue is sadly a crude sideshow. The key issues are about the constitution (all those unelected ministers - dozens of them, and totally unaccountable), and about what uncontrolled immigration has done to the economy and the self-esteem of the country.
Why do people not discuss this openly? Because they all might get arrested - some have!!
And Nick Griffin - is he going to get arrested, for inciting religious/racial hatred ?
Real Labour used to look out for the Common Man. But That Man has seen clearly in the last few months that New Labour only ever looks out for itself. And has put all the legislation in place to ensure we don't find out about it (God bless the Whistleblower)and if we make a fuss, they can send in those Met guys - scary, especially if you're a wee pensioner like me.
I would be very grateful not to have to make a protest vote (although it worked a treat!). I would like to be able to vote for a real political party that will produce its manifesto and will pledge to us, the voters, that it will work to realise all its pledges. Haven't had that privilege for a very long time.

David Ossitt

David.

"We've had more Jews in the country without it being "Jewified", and we've had plenty of Sikhs and Hindus too"

What a horrible made up word "Jewified".

David another post says that you do not get it; well I will try again Jews, Sikhs and Hindus do not want to impose Sharia Law and their religion on our country.

They are people of peace and live in harmony.

Jews, Sikhs and Hindus do not stone to death adulterers, nor any other of the sick medieval practises.

FF

I realise my previous post appears to criticise the Conservatives (as well as the Liberals) of not being sufficiently attractive to BNP supporters. David Cameron could have picked up a bit of extra support for the Conservatives by pandering to anti-immigrant feeling, as did Sarkozy and Berlusconi in their countries. I think it to his credit that he did not.

I should declare an interest. My wife is an immigrant who, incidentally, happily voted Conservative in the European election. She did so becase she supported the policies and competence of the Conservative Party, and without considering whether they were for or against people like her.

However, if we give kudos to the Conservatives for resisting the temptation to racial discrimination, then out of fairness we should not hold it against the Labour Party that they didn't attract people who would otherwise vote BNP.

This was the point of my post.

David

I went to City of London. We had bomb drills post-Bishopsgate.

Sharia law would have the same status and effect as the Beth Din - you would not be affected, any more than you are by the use of Beth Din. Non-Jewish women are not agunah, for example, even though Jewish women are so afflicted. Similarly, no one other than Sikhs are affected by the exemption from helmet laws-that failed to lead to people claiming Sikhs were seeking to take over the UK.

Everybody in the UK seeks, through democracy, to impose their way of life on the country. Only a small group of muslims, themselves less than 5% of the UK population seek to implement an Islamic state. About the same number as, say, evangelical Christians seeking to have their religion turned into the basis for our laws. There is no "Islamification".There is no reason to vote for a party that seeks to get rid of all muslims, all blacks, all Jews, all Hindus, all Sikhs. UK culture was not destroyed by incorporating Jewish burial laws into a statutory basis, nor by providing a statutory remit to the Board of Deputies and the United Synagogue.

You say Copeland was a loner-but it's no difference. You don't tar all white people with what he did, and you should not tar all muslims with what a small number of their community does. And the gay community would be at as much danger from Christian evangelicals (see the US) as muslims, and you don't appear to be calling for all Christians to be taken out by excusing voting for a party that wants to get rid of them all.

Muslims are different. That's their only crime.

David Ossitt

David

"Muslims are different. That's their only crime"

It is that difference that many people dislike.

"Everybody in the UK seeks, through democracy, to impose their way of life on the country"

What drivel.