The point of no return

Owen Morgan

"Each of those black redactions reads like another nail in the coffin of Brown's premiership."

Every black rectangle has a silver lining, then. It's just a shame that Brown himself will be the last on the planet to get the message.

Ray

I read that Natascha Engels, Labour MP for North-East Derbyshire, claimed £79.99 for a cool box in which to "drive her groceries from London to Derbyshire".

Even assuming this kind of claim is even remotely morally legitimate (do they not have supermarkets in Chesterfield?), is her particular coolbox gold-lined or diamond-studded? For example, a standard 24 litre coolbox from Wilkinsons costs just £7.99. Even the electrically-cooled version from the said store costs just £24.99!

But then clearly Ms Engels doesn't shop in the same kind of stores that most of her working-class constituents do.

Sterence

If MPs had agreed in the first place to publish what Parliament has just published, they would probably have got away with it - there would have been some chuntering about the redactions but the public could have been sold the idea that personal privacy was necessary, and if the Telegraph had published the full version later, MPs could have painted it as irresponsibly compromising their security without adding that much to the general picture.

Now, it is much too late and the mob wants blood. MPs bear most of the responsibility for letting this happen.

John Lea

Owen Morgan: "Every black rectangle has a silver lining, then. It's just a shame that Brown himself will be the last on the planet to get the message."

Why do you single out Brown for censure? What about Cameron, Osborne and the Tories, who are equally mired in the expenses scandal? I honestly don't understand why people are so blinkered and partisan on this issue, when it transcends (if that's the right word) party loyalties.

All I know is that Cameron spoke at length and in outraged tones about members' expenses several weeks ago. And now - surprise surprise - we discover that he has been using tax-payers' money to pay off his opulent home in Oxfordshire. People who vote for this shameless man are misguided fools.

Moraymint

I'm delighted that the press is enraged on our behalf about this latest scandal.

You're right, Peter: they just don't get it, do they? After everything's that happened in recent weeks/months, our political class is still operating in some weird, nether-world to the rest of us. What in hell is going on in Westminster? Have they had a collective and complete leave of their senses? What on earth does it take for vox pop to be heard in those hallowed halls of power?

It's ironic that our politicians bang on about democracy (lack of) in Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan, Pakistan etc etc (and servicemen die meanwhile), whilst here at home our Dear Leader, his 100-strong, supine Government colleagues and the impotent plonkers supposedly holding them to account wouldn't know democracy if it flattened them them with a steamroller (the sooner the better as far as I'm concerned).

We need to get rid of the lot of them and start again. That may mean taking to the streets the way things are going.

Gawain

This is now a tragedy. Good, thoughtful people like Paul Goodman are leaving politics whilst the miserly claim experts find new excuses to protect their earnings (Data Protection Act, my a***). If we're not careful we'll end up with a Parliament of Esther Rantzens and Nick Griffins. I'm telling my children to emigrate.

Carrie

It's all very well saying this is another nail in the coffin of Brown's premiership, but Cameron has to show that the Conservatives are different which so far they seem not to be. People need a positive reason to vote Tory, and at least the hope that they are offering change but there is no sense of that.

Jonathan Cook

Why have they not published Ed Balls expenses!!!

There is something very fishy between Ed Balls and The Telegraph

David Ossitt

John Lea

"People who vote for this shameless man are misguided fools."

What does that make anyone who would vote for the sad, mad, bad, Gordon.

David Ossitt

"Redaction" when politicians use obscure or little used words then be very very wary, they only do it to deceive.

Teddy

I was furious before, now I'm absolutely livid. Apart from the clear intent to deceive and save themselves - quelle surprise - just HOW stupid do they take the electorate for? Seething.

John Lea

Gawain: I think that is a legitimate point. The danger of all this is that people become completely disillusioned with the political class and replace them with a celebrity class, who will doubtless stand on an anti-expenses, anti-sleaze platform. The only thing worse than a corrupt political class is a well-meaning but vacuous group of celebs and pop tarts talking populist balls. I know it's wrong to categorise them all as out of touch luvvies, but I can't imagine anything worse than being represented by the likes of Bono, Stephen Fry, Annie Lennox, Esther Rantzen, or - God help us - Jo Brand. Give me creepy Uncle Nick any day!

Colin

John Lea @ 10:02

"Why do you single out Brown for censure? What about Cameron, Osborne and the Tories, who are equally mired in the expenses scandal? "

It could be due to the FACT that on every occasion in the last couple of years, where MPs have voted for more openness, the PLP, en masse, has voted to either keep things secret or to continue the toughing at our our expense.

The sight and sound of creatures like harman, (the main ring leader in the co-ordinated attempts to cover up and deceive the public), attempting to continue to defend this monstrous situation is vomit inducing.

Ray

Mark Field MP notes at ConservtaiveHome how "many – perhaps even, most – MPs themselves do not regard (the effective scrutiny of legislation) as their main role, still less the constitutional duty of holding the Executive to account. Instead the House of Commons increasingly consists of a cadre of über-councillors, focusing much of their attention and burgeoning workload in a constituency focused comfort zone."

Exactly. Having been given an important-sounding suffix to stick against their names, an office in Portcullis House and a few little fiddles to perk up their earnings it is hoped that they will content themselves with sorting out trivia (ie: progress chasing individual asylum and immigration appeals) and thus won't notice how real power in this country has been remorselessly slipping out of their hands to be amassed instead by an overmighty executive - which in turn has in reality sold its birthright for a mess of potage from Brussels.

Simon Stephenson

Let he who has not sinned cast the first stone. That's what I think.

Let's whittle down the list of the eligible to those who have never taken advantage of their own expense regime to spend money that they would never have spent had it had to come out of their own pocket. "I think I'll have the fillet steak tonight, Bill, and what about some wine? George and I tried the Nuit St Georges last month - what a difference from the house red I have to drink when I come here with the wife" ... "Just going down to the carwash, dear. Pity the company won't stretch to paying to have yours done. Still we'll get one of the boys to give it a going over later on"

Ignoring all those who've never been able to reclaim expenses, you wouldn't have much difficulty fitting the rest into a squash court.

Liz Brown

@Jonathon Cook - in answer to your question - Will Lewis (ed TelegrapH) is a drinking partner of sowhatballsupcooper.........
An election is needed now - get these troughers out - but PLEASE no celebs

Ben Gladstone

the expenses are paltry, but as usual it's the cover-up wot gets them

John Lea

David Ossitt: I agree, they're both charlatans - that was my point.

Stan, UK

No wonder this country is in the state it's in when all MP's seem to have been doing for the last twelve years, is devising ever more elaborate ways to rob and deceive taxpayers. Disgusting. BTW that Sir Stuart Bell embodies all that is wrong with our political system. His attitude and mindset towards this issue is exactly the sort that needs to be got rid of and removed from the Parliament.

John Lea

Colin: I agree with you and share your detestation of Harman, but, I repeat, is there any difference between her deception and hypocrisy and Cameron's? Dave was quick to assend his soap box at the time and talk at length - in fine statesman/voice of the people fashion - about how inexcusable it was for MPs to fleece the tax payers and how outraged he was about the system, etc. Have you seen his expenses form? He - like Brown, like Osborne, like Blears, like Harman - is a phony!

John Lea

Ben Gladstone: are you for real - the expenses are paltry? I beg to differ. Some of these people have paid off their mortgages at OUR expense.

Paul (bloody angry)

There is a nasty stink about this parliament that should be sorted out by the intervention of Her Majestys Armed Forces. Surprised anyone should suggest that?

It is more than ever apparent that a lot of our MPs are self-serving. These are not people who, by their very character, you want to be making decisions for you. NOT EVEN FOR ONE MORE YEAR!

There needs to be series of elections starting with contstituency primaries (held by local parties) leading to a general election so that we can weed the crooks - at least the ones we know about.

However, Brown will not hold an election because he is power mad. The House will not make him, because the majority of them are convinced of their entitlement.

We can't march on Parliament because the Police are politicised. We would get our heads busted before we got to there - besides which, we rally need a leading figure to be calling for this.

So, the final option is the Queen dissolving parliament, and the Army enforcing it.

These people DO NEED some of the treatment not meted out since Cromwell.

Verity

John Lea writes, referring to David Cameron (he of the dry powder): "People who vote for this shameless man are misguided fools."

Oh, I don't think many people will be voting for Mr Cameron or the party he is "leading" into oblivion.

Paging Nigel Farage. Mr Farage to the white courtesy phone, please.

Verity

Paul (bloody angry) some of us have been suggesting a military take-over of the government for around a year now. Since long before the latest sleazy outrage. Lessee, now, Gordon Brown or Sir Richard Dannett? Gordon Brown or Sir Richard Dannett? Hmmmm ... tough choice ...

Austin Barry

Paul

For nearly a year now I have been advocating that a team of no-nonsense removal men from Hereford should frog march Brown and his cadre of crooks and failures from Downing Street to howls of execration from we, the stuffed. I continue to live in hope.

Moraymint

Jonathan Cook: Why have they not published Ed Balls' expenses?

I wonder if the Daily Telegraph has tucked the Balls file into its nuclear armoury? There may come a day in the coming months when the time is right finally to skewer Brown, Balls and the rest of them.

If the DT has indeed got dynamite wrapped around its Balls, the agony could be exruciating when said dynamite is detonated.

John Lea

Verity: Cameron will get in at the next election - guaranteed. I'm not suggesting that he would be any worse than Brown, I just find it depressing that a truly conservative politican is no longer in charge of the party; that we are left with the Tony Blair Tribute Act (as I think you call him).

Verity

John Lea, the Blair Tribute Act was invented by Strapworld. Credit where it's due.

I don't believe there's any appetite for Cameron and The Heirites© TGF UKIP, and Cameron and his clique are tarred with the same brush as the socialists re "expenses" sleaze. Indeed, I think voters will be even more repulsed by The Heirites because these people are already rich and privileged.

To my mind, it is important that Cameron not get his chance to further his ambitions because he is a dangerous man. Not as dangerous as Tony Blair because he is not as clever, but dangerous nevertheless. Look how he slithers around re the EU question. Look how he has never committed to anything, really, except furthering his own ambitions and fortune.

Edward

Correct me if I'm wrong Verity 5:08pm, but hasn't Dave committed himself to Pride at the Paramount?

John Lea : 10:02a.m.
When politicians speak "at length and in outraged tones", I think we all agree that's the time to nip out and put the kettle on.

Can any Coffee Houser advise me exactly what Cameron has DONE re : expenses ?

Brown ? Who cares anymore ?
Clegg ? Who ???

Paul

Hey Verity:
Lessee, now, Gordon Brown or Sir Richard Dannett?

Well, who said that the military would rule the country, I certainly didn't

Cogito Ergosum

David Ossitt 10:41am:
"redact" is BGAPE -- Bastard German-American Pseudo-English. An excellent reason to distrust any British politician.

Verity

Paul, No, you didn't. You're a scaredy cat.

I feel that a military administration for a set period of time - say 10 months to a year - might give our lawmakers, relieved of their duties for the duration, time for reflection.

TomTom

Brown campaigned on Tory Sleaze back in 1996 and pilloried Cedric Brown of British Gas as a "fat cat"....now the wheel has turned full circle !