All faiths are welcome but none

Recusant

Well he has a point that even the most public atheist thinkers, such as Jurgen Habermas, would agree with: namely that the concept of Human Rghts and Liberty developed from Christian theology

Kevin

What Romney might also be saying is, why should a person limit his agnosticism to God? Why should it not also encompass an agnosticism about morality (including the moral dimension of freedom)?

Alex

Romney is channelling that part of the American zeitgeist who believes the true spirit of America is faith, not freedom. Sadly it’s disturbingly common. Kevin, You seem to be saying that if someone questions God's existence, they might also stray into questioning morality itself. I agree with you, but I think this is a good thing. Questioning is the constant here, questioning God's existence is a good exercise for all, because if believers do not consider the possibility he doesn't, what does believing mean? Belief without choice is belief without meaning. So why shouldn't this apply to morality? Why shouldn't we question why certain things are considered right or wrong? To do so is not to reject all morality as many suggest, but to find that which has a basis in reason. Prohibitions against murder and theft make sense, whilst bigotry against homosexuals does not. The fundamentals of human rights make perfect sense if we consider that no human is different enough to us that they should be denied rights that we ourselves would ask for. We do not need to invoke deities to find the foundations of our morality. You seem to suggest that questioning might endanger the moral dimension of freedom of thought, but nothing could be further from the truth. Questioning this is paradoxical as it is essentially questioning the virtue of questioning and trying to reason why reason doesn't work. The only threat to freedom of thought comes from those who either ask or compel us to close down our minds and accept that what they’re saying is true, regardless of reason. Romney is quite wrong that religion is required for our moral freedom (and the examples of authoritarian religions that have attempted to impose limits on thought and choice are all too easy to find) but neither is it incompatible, as long as we remember that freedom is inborn, not god-granted.

dexey

Seems fair to me.
We get enough of it the other way about.

Hugh

"Freedom requires religion just as religion requires freedom”: I'm not sure the first part is necessarily dubious. Could he not be saying that all true free states encompass freedom of worship? And I can't see how stating that he will not separate the US from the God that gave it freedom can be taken as a claim that atheists are unpatriotic. It seems to simply say that he personally views freedom as a God-given gift, and couches his patriotism in these terms. The commitment to keep the the church and state separate, though, suggests he would respect those who disagree. Given that he could not reasonably have argued differently while maintaining a commitment to his faith, your objection to him would seem to be simply that he is a Mormon. Fair enough, but you should have the courage to say so.

bymasson

"Freedom requires religion" is dubious. If a country banned all religion then obviously there is limited freedom, but if (big if!) all the people of one country had no religion at all by choice, would they have no freedoms or moral codes? I seriously doubt that. And let's not forget that Christianity is a fairly new religion before we start crediting it with being the basis of all moral codes. The Isrealites decided long before Christianity was invented that "Thou shalt not kill" seemed like a good idea.

Edward

These religious people leave me feeling dizzy.Surely the only things we need to believe are that we should all show kindness and fairness to everybody else and respect the natural world.

Kevin

Alex, questioning is one thing, but a permanent state of agnosticism or academic detachment is another. You say you are opposed to the killing of human beings, but are you agnostic about the humanity of unborn children? Are you agnostic about whether Terri Schiavo suffered any pain when she was starved to death? In other words, what stock can one put in your claim to be objectively against murder?

dexey

Edward has his own religion then?